IMAGE  EVALUATION 
TEST  TARGET  (MT.3) 


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«  Ki   122 

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23  WEST  MAIN  STROT 

WnSTIR.N.Y.  145M 

(716)  •72-4503 


1 


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CIHM/ICMH 

Microfiche 

Series. 


CIHIVI/ICJVIH 
Collection  de 
microfiches. 


Canadian  Institute  for  Historicai  IMicroreproductions  /  Institut  Canadian  de  microreproductions  historiques 


Technical  and  Bibliographic  Notas/Notas  tachniquas  at  bibliographiquas 


Tha  Inatituta  has  attamptad  to  obtain  tha  baat 
original  copy  avaiiabia  for  filming.  Faaturas  of  this 
copy  which  may  ba  bibliographically  uniqua, 
which  may  altar  any  of  tha  imagas  In  tha 
raproduction,  or  which  may  significantly  changa 
tha  usual  mathod  of  filming,  ara  chackad  below. 


D 


D 


D 


D 


Coloured  covers/ 
Couverture  de  couleur 


r~|   Covers  damaged/ 


Couverture  endommagia 

Covers  restored  and/or  laminated/ 
Couverture  restaurta  at/ou  palliculte 


I      I   Cover  title  missing/ 


Le  titre  de  couverture  manque 


I     I   Coloured  maps/ 


Cartes  giographiquas  en  couleur 


□   Coloured  ink  (i.e.  other  than  blue  or  black)/ 
Encra  de  couleur  (i.e.  autre  que  bleue  ou  noiie) 

I      I   Coloured  plates  and/or  illustrations/ 


Planches  et/ou  illustrations  an  couleur 


Bound  with  other  material/ 
RaliA  avac  d'autras  documents 


Tight  binding  may  causa  shadows  or  distortion 
along  interior  margin/ 

La  re  liure  serr6e  peut  causer  de  I'ombre  ou  de  la 
distortion  le  long  de  la  marge  intirieure 

Blank  leaves  added  during  restoration  may 
appear  within  tha  text.  Whenever  possible,  these 
have  been  omitted  from  filming/ 
II  se  peut  que  certaines  pages  blanches  ajouttas 
lors  d'une  restauration  apparaissant  dans  la  texte. 
mais,  lorsque  cela  itait  possible,  ces  pages  n'ont 
pas  At*  filmias. 

Additional  comments:/ 
Commentaires  suppltmentairas: 


Tl 
to 


L'Institut  a  microfilm^  la  maiileur  exempiaira 
qu'il  lui  a  At*  possible  de  se  procurer.  Les  details 
de  cet  exempiaira  qui  sont  paut-Atre  uniques  du 
point  de  vue  bibliographique,  qui  peuvent  modifier 
une  image  reproduite.  ou  qui  peuvent  exiger  une 
modification  dans  la  mAthoda  normale  de  fiimaga 
sont  indiqu6s  ci-dessous. 


□   Coloured  pages/ 
Pages  de  couleur 


n 

D 

n 


n 


Pages  damaged/ 
Pages  endommagias 

Puges  restored  and/or  laminated/ 
Pages  restaurias  at/ou  peilicul6es 

Pages  discoloured,  stained  or  foxed/ 
Pages  dicolortes,  tachattes  ou  piquAas 

Pages  detached/ 
Pages  d6tachtos 


r~2   Showthrough/ 


Transparence 

Quality  of  prir 

Quaiiti  inAgala  de  I'impression 

Includes  supplementary  materii 
Comprend  du  material  supplimantaire 


I      I   Quality  of  print  varies/ 

I      I    Includes  supplementary  material/ 


Only  edition  available/ 
Seule  Edition  disponible 

Pages  wholly  or  partially  obscured  by  errata 
slips,  tissues,  etc.,  have  been  ref limed  to 
ensure  the  best  possible  image/ 
Les  pages  totalement  ou  partiellement 
obscurcies  par  un  fauillet  d'errata,  une  pelure, 
etc.,  ont  6t6  filmAes  6  nouveau  de  fapon  A 
obtenir  la  mailleure  image  possible. 


T 

P 
o 
fi 


O 

b 

th 

si 

ol 

fil 

si 
or 


Tl 
•h 
Tl 
w 

M 
di 
er 
bfl 
ri| 
rei 


This  item  is  filmed  at  tha  reduction  ratio  checked  below/ 

Ce  document  est  film*  au  taux  de  reduction  indiqu*  ci-dessous 

10X                           14X                           18X                           22X 

26X 

30X 

y 

12X 

16X 

20X 

24X                            28X                            32X 

tails 
I  du 
odifier 
une 
mage 


The  copy  filmed  hara  has  baan  raproducad  thanks 
to  tha  ganarosity  of: 

University  of  Saslurtehmnm 
Saslcatoon 

Tha  images  appearing  hare  are  the  besft  quality 
possible  considering  the  condition  and  legibility 
of  the  original  copy  and  in  keeping  with  the 
filming  contract  specifications. 


Original  copies  in  printed  paper  covers  are  filmed 
beginning  with  the  front  cover  and  ending  on 
the  last  page  with  a  printed  or  illustrated  imprea- 
sion,  or  the  back  cover  when  appropriate.  All 
other  original  copies  are  filmed  beginning  on  the 
first  page  with  a  printed  or  illustrated  impres- 
sion, and  ending  on  the  last  page  with  a  printed 
or  illustrated  impression. 


The  last  recorded  frame  on  each  microfiche 
shall  contain  the  symbol  — ^  (meaning  "CON- 
TINUED"), or  the  symbol  V  (meaning  "END"), 
whichever  applies. 


L'exemplaira  film*  f ut  reproduit  grica  A  la 
ginArositA  da: 

Univtnity  of  SMkatchawan 
Saskatoon 

Las  images  suivantot  ont  6t*  reproduites  avac  le 
plus  grand  soin,  compte  tanu  da  la  condition  at 
da  la  nattet*  da  I'aKamplaira  film*,  at  an 
conformity  avac  las  conditions  du  contrat  da 
filmage. 

Lea  exemplaires  originaux  dont  la  couverture  an 
papier  est  imprimAe  sont  filmte  en  commen9ant 
par  la  premier  plat  at  en  terminant  soit  par  la 
darnlAre  page  qui  comporta  une  amprainte 
d'imprassion  ou  d'illustration.  soit  par  la  second 
plat,  salon  le  cas.  Tous  les  autres  exemplaires 
originaux  sont  filmAs  an  commandant  par  la 
pramlAre  page  qui  comporte  une  amprainte 
d'imprassion  ou  d'illustration  at  en  terminant  par 
la  darnlAre  page  qui  comporte  une  telle 
empreinte. 

Un  des  symboles  suivants  apparattra  sur  la 
derniire  image  de  cheque  microfiche,  seion  le 
cas:  la  symbole  -^>  signifie  "A  SUIVRE",  le 
symbols  V  signifie  "FIN". 


Maps,  plates,  ch  rts.  etc..  may  be  filmed  at 
different  reduction  ratios.  Thoaa  too  large  to  be 
entirely  included  in  one  exposure  are  filmed 
beginning  in  the  upper  left  hand  corner,  left  to 
right  and  top  to  bottom,  as  many  frames  as 
required.  The  following  diagrama  illustrate  the 
method: 


Lea  cartas,  planches,  tableaux,  etc..  peuvent  Atre 
filmte  A  des  taux  de  reduction  diff^rents. 
Lorsque  le  document  est  trop  grand  pour  Atre 
reproduit  en  un  seul  clichA.  11  est  f ilmA  A  partir 
da  I'angia  supArieur  gauche,  de  gauche  A  droite, 
et  de  haut  an  bas.  en  prenant  la  nombre 
d'images  nAcessaire.  Les  diagrammes  suivants 
illustrant  la  mAthode. 


rrata 
o 


lelure. 
Id 


1 

2 

3 

1 


J 


32X 


6 


BEHRING  SEA  CLAIMS  COMMISSION. 


RECORD  OF  E VIDEN  CE 


TAKEN    AT 


VICTORIA,  BRITISH  COLUMBIA, 


BY 


THE    COMMISSIONERS, 


UNDER    THE 


CONVENTION  OF  FEBRUARY  8.  1896, 


BETWEEN 


GREAT  BRITAIN  AND  THE  UNITED  STATES. 


VOL.    I. 

(Pages  1-1008  incl.) 


S/Lutiii^^r 


TABLE  OF  CONTENTS. 


Ist  Session.     Xovfiiilier  i';5.  Is'.m;.     |)|».  1 -]•_'. 
Comiiiissinii  (U'claivd  loiiiially  'tiM'iicd.     AmnmiicL'iiiont 
of  appoiiitineiits.     Ajipt'anuia'S  of  couiistl.     Subniissiou 
of  proposal  1  nilt's.     Discussion  tluMeoii. 

2ii<l  Sossion.     XovimiiIht  iM.  IM'C.     pp.  1'.'  IT). 
Claims  Nos.  \  to  11  fiK'd.     Siilmiissioii  of  aiiiuiKliiients 
to  ruk's.     Aiii.ouiiCfmeiU  coiiccriiiuj;   adoption  of  rules. 
Claims  Nos.  1-'  to  if,  filed 

;ii'd  Session.     Novenibei  liri,  IM>ti.     p.  ir> 
Antlioiization  for  receivinj;  and  lilinj;  elaims  between 
sessions. 

4tli  Session      NoveuiUer  _7,  ls!»H.     pj).  15-1»!. 
Motion  and  order  foi- taking  deposition  of  Andrew  D. 
Laing  before  Sjtecial  Examinei'. 

r.tli  Session.     November  as.  Isyd.     jip.  l»i-37. 
Discussion   ctmcerning  rules.  Moti<ins  to  dismiss  as  to 
Claiiii  No.  5,  "  liUtck  Dininoud,''  and  part  of  Cluitit  No. 
11,  ".4r/<f."  argued  and  taken  under  consideration. 

(»tb  Session.     November  ;5<),  iSlKi.     pp.  37-40. 
Discussion  concerning  rules.    Additional  rule  announced. 
Motion  to  dismiss  as  to  Claim  No.  2(t,  "  Costs  in  Say  ward 
Case,"  taken  up  and  argument  deferred. 

7th  Session.  December  2,  18l»6.  pp.  41-lOfi. 
Claim  No.  1,  "  C'(trole)ia"  taken  up.  Summary  of 
pleadings.  Extracts  from  Senate  Document  lofi,  contain- 
ing co|)y  of  record  of  proceedings  against  "Carolena," 
read  in  evidence.  Discussion.  Further  extracts  contain- 
ing portions  of  correspondence  and  U.  S.  Statutes  read  in 
evidence.  John  Margotich  examined  in  Claim No.'S,"Oit- 
ward."  Claim  No.  1,  '  Caroleiia,"  re-tumed.  More  corre- 
spondence read  in  evidence.  Exhibits  Nos.  1,2,  3.4  (G. 
B.)  marked  in  evidence.  William  Munsie  examined.  Ex- 
hibits Nos.  5,  »i,  7.  S,  It,  10,  11  (G.  B.)  marked  in  evidence. 

8th  Se.ssion.     December  3,  189»).     pp.  10»i-142. 
Examination  of   William    Munsie  resumed.     Exhibits 
Nos.  12, 13  ((t.  B.)  marked  in  evidence.    Discussion.   John 
G.  Cox  examined. 

9th  Session.     December  4,  1890.     pp.  142-195. 
William  Munsie  recalled.     Andrew  J.  Bechtel,  John  J. 
Robinson,    Henry    F.   Siewerd,    William   Tupel,   Walter 
Walker,  Alexander  Watson,  Jr.,  Samuel  McC.  Smith  ex- 
amined.    Exhibit  No.  14  (G.  B.)  marked  in  evidence. 

10th  Session.     December  5,  1896.     pp.  195-218. 
Cross-examination  of  S.  McC.  Smith  waived.     Orlando 
Warner  examined.     Statements  by  counsel.     A.  J.  Bech- 
tel recalled.     John  Sabiston  and  John  Clark  examined. 
Discussion.     Transcrifit  from  Bechtel's  stub-book. 

11th  Session.     December  7,  1896.     pp.  219-251. 
Exhibit  No.  15  (G.  B.)  marked  in  evidence.     Alexander 
R.  Milne  examined.    Exhibits  No.  16  (G.  B.)  and   No.  1 


n 


TABLE  OP  CONTENTS. 


(IT.  S.)  marked  in  evidencf.  J.  D.  Warren  and  Charles 
Spring  examine*!.  Exhibit  No.  17  (G.  B.)  marked  in  evi- 
dence.     Discussion. 

12th  Session.  December  S,  18»«.  pp.  252-303. 
Decision  on  motions  to  dismiss  deferred  by  consent. 
William  T.  Bragg  and  Owen  Thomas  examined.  Extracts 
from  deposition  of  A.  D.  Laing.  FiXliibit  No.  IH  (O.  B.) 
marked  m  evidence.  Extract  froin  case  of  United  States 
at  I'aris  road  in  evidence.  Victor  Ja<;ol)son,  J.  D.  War- 
ren, Wm.  O'Leary,  Emile  Hamlas  and  (Jnstave  Hansen 
examined. 

13th  Session.  December  it,  ISlMi.  pp.  303-353. 
Abstract  of  catch  pnt  in  ovi(l«'nre.  Exhibits  Nos.  11»,  20, 
21,  2'2,  23,  24.  "2".  (G.  B.)  marked  in  evidence.  A.  Keppen 
examineil.  Statements  by  <'ounscd.  J.  D.  Warren,  C.  A. 
Goffin,  W.  D.  Byer.s.  C.  A.  Liindberg  and  H.  E.  McKeil 
examined.  Discussion.  Neals  Moss  examined.  Discus- 
sion.    Cbas.  Spring  and  R.  J.  Ker  examined.     Discussion. 

14tb  Session.     December  In,  1S!M{.     pp.  3.')+-367. 
Stfxtements  by  counsel.     P.  H.  Brown  e.xamined.     Case 
of  Gnat  Jiritain  closed,  reservin;^  certain  rights.     Ca.se  of 
C'uili'd  S((iles  o/ieiied.     Discussion.     Extracts  from  docu- 
ments reail  in  evidence. 

l.-ith  Session.  December  11,  ls)t«i.  pp.  307-415. 
Discussion.  Cn.se  of  United  Slates  in  Claim  No.  1  re- 
stiwi'd.  John  Cotsford  examined.  Letter  from  James 
Ogilvie  read  in  evidence.  Exhibit  No.  2«  (G.  B.)  marked 
in  evidence.  A.  J.  Bechtel  examined.  Discussion.  Ex- 
hibit No.  2  (U.  S.)  marked  in  evidence.  A.  McLean  ex- 
amined.    Discussion.    Examination  continued. 


Irtth  Session.     December  12,  18!»6.     pp.  415-442. 
A.  Mcl..ean's  examination   resumed.     Discussion, 
amination  continued. 


Ex- 


17th  Session.     December  14,  18!»«.     pp.  442-497. 
A.  McLean's  examination  resumed.    A.  B.  Alexander 
examined.      Discussion.      Examination    continue  >.    Ex- 
hibits Nos.  3  (U.  S.)  and  27  (G.  B.)  marked  in  evdence.     C 
E.  Kaynor  examined. 

18th  Session.     December  15,  18J)«.     pp.  497-553. 
C  E.  Raynor's  examination   resumed.    Discussion.    C. 
E.  Raynor  further  examined.    E  r.  I'.liuer  examined.  Dis- 
cussion.   Examination  continueo 

19th  Session.  December  U>,  1890.  pp.  553-602. 
Discussion.  E.  P.  Miner's  examination  resumed.  Dis- 
cussion. E.  C  Baker  and  Wm.  Munsie  examined.  Ex- 
hibit No.  4  (U.  S.)  marked  in  evidence.  Discussion.  E.  P. 
Miner's  examination  resumed.  Discussion.  Case  of  Great 
Britain  in  rebuttal  opened.  D.  Russell  examined.  Dis- 
cussion. W.  D.  Byers  examined.  Further  testimony  of 
this  witness  was  taken  at  this  Session  with  reference  to 
Claim  No.  14  (see  pp.  776-781). 

20th  Session.    December  17,  1896.    pp.  603-604. 

W.  E.  Baker  was  examined.    Testimony  of  W.  E.  Baker 

(pp.  716-730  and  781-783)  and  Laughlin  McLean  (pp.  730- 

746)  and  Wm.  Cox  (pp.  754-759)  was  taken  with  reierence 

to  subsequent  claims.  .  . 


TABLK  OV  C'OSTKNTS. 


Ill 


rilst  Si'ssioii.     Dt>««'iiilu'r  IS,  |m«I.     pp.  (Ut4  tU3. 
W.  T.  Hrn^rji  exaiiijiird.     Tt-stiiiiDiiv  «if  C.  N.  Vox,  Win. 
Cox  (pp.  T.V.t  7<U),  W.T.  MniKK(|»p.  7<'.4  7«'.((),  Wni.  ()"l.t'ary 
(pp.   "<>(>  774),  (.  A.   Liiinlbi'r^;  (pp.  7s;i  wUj  was  taken 
with  retfrcnco  to  suhsei/in'iit  vlaitiis. 

•jL'nil  Sf<sioM.  Di'it'inltcr  I'.t,  isiMi.  pp.  c.i;?  (i;ji. 
(Jiistavn  Haiisi'ii,  C  N.  I'dx  .iikI  Kiiiilf  Hainlas  further 
exaiiiiiDMl.  James  .Miiiigt-i' cxainiiicd  iiin-ltiittal  Discus- 
sion. A.  K.  Hisscit  (pp.  774  77«!)  and  (iiistavc  HauHen 
(pp.  sul-Htt4)  \v<n!  I  xainint'd  witli  lefVientt' to  ,s(//>,s<'«yife»«/ 
claims. 

I'Urd  Session.  Dt'cenilu'r  :il,  |H!K!,  pp.  (i.'JI  ♦!"((. 
.James  Manner's  examiiialion  resumed.  .M.  M.  Serault 
was  examinerl  in  rebuttal.  T.  H.  Mrovvn  examined.  Ex- 
hiliits  Nos.  2s  an.i  L'Jt  ((J.  H.)  marked  in  evidence.  Chas. 
Hackett.  Victor  Jucolisun  and  K.  J.  Ker  examined.  Alex- 
ander Kcppen  (j»|»  SL'1-S2»i)  was  examined  with  reference 
to  snhsvtjitoit  cidiiiis. 

L'4th  Session.  Deceml)er  22,  IKiHI.  pp.  ♦;7<i-<')84. 
Exiiihits  .s'os.  ;{(•  and  ;U  (G.  B. )  marked  in  evidence.  R. 
E.  McKeil.  K.  J.  Ker.  VV.  (}.  Uoudie  and  Theodore  Luhbe 
examined.  Discussion.  Launhhn  McLean  (jtp.  74t!-754) 
and  Crustave  Hansen  (pp.  soii  S21)  examined  with  refer- 
ence to  suhsi'fjKeut  ciniiiis. 

25th  Session.     December  23,  i81><l.     pp.  084-715. 
Ther)dore   Lubbe's  examination  lesumed.     Discussion. 
E.  C.  Baker,  S.  \V.  Buckriam.  Louis  Olsen  and  U.  D.  Lo- 
gan examined. 

26th  Session.  December  24,  IS9<'>.  pp.  820-850. 
Discussion.  Claiiti  Ao.  2,  "  Thonitoti,"  lukeu  up.  State- 
ment of  Claim.  H.  J.  Cook  and  Walter  Walkerexan)ined. 
H.  J.  Cook  recalled.  Orlando  Warner,  Wm.  Turpel  and 
John  Dallas  examined.  A.  Watson,  Jr.,  Gustave  Hansen, 
Louis  Olsen  and  C.  Spring  examined  (pp.  iy41-r.>.')0). 

27th  Session.     December  20,  18!>6.     pp.  850-872. 
Claim  No.  3,  "  Oiitmrd,"  taken  up.     H.  J.  Cook,  Or- 
lando Warner,  Samuel  Sea,  Alexander  Watson,  Jr.,  W. 
Walker  and  C.  Snring  examined.    Exhibits  Nos.  32  and 
50  (G.  B.)  markea  in  evidence. 

28th  Session.  December  28,  1890.  pp.  872-922. 
0.  Spring's  examination  resumed.  Letters  from  Daniel 
Monroe  read  in  evidence.  Exhibits  Nos.  33  and  34  (G.  B.) 
marked  in  evidence.  M.  Harkin  examined.  Exhibits 
Nos.  35,  3»)and  37  (G.  B.)  marked  in  evidence.  Tiansfer 
of  testimony  from  other  claims  made.  Claim  No.  3, 
"  Onward,"  resumed.  Case  of  United  States  opened. 
Exhibit  No.  5  (U.  S.)  marked  in  evidence.  C.  E.  haynor 
examined.  C.  Spring  recalled  Claim  No.  2,  "  Thornton." 
resumed.  Exhibits  Nos.  38,  39,  40,  41,  42.  43,  44  and  45 
(G.  B.)  marked  in  evidence.    J,  D.  Warren  examined. 

29th  Session.  December  29,  1890.  pp.  922-963. 
J.  Andei-son  examined  with  reference  to  subsequent 
claims.  Claim  No.  2,  "  Tliornton,"  resumed.  J.  D.  War- 
ren examined.  Inventory  read  in  evidence.  Exhibits 
Nos.  46  and  47  (G.  B.)  marked  in  evidence.  Discussion. 
Exhibits  Nos.  48  and  49  (G.  B.)  marked  in  evidence.  Dis- 
cussion. 


IT 


T.\HI,i5  UK  CONTKNTM. 


aoth  St'Hsidii.  Dcct'inhfr  :'o,  |s!»<t.  pp.  Jt<i:»-I007. 
\V.  Slt'if^litlitiliiio  t'xaiiiiiit'il.  DociiiiMiits  it'jid  in  t'vi- 
ilt'iui'.  J.  I>.  W'iiiit'ii  ami  .1.  W.  (IriUillis  <'.\;iiiiiiu'(l.  Kx- 
tiiK'ts  fritii)  coiicspiiiulcncc  iciMi  in  I'vidcncf.  liaiiiis  i\ns. 
0,7,  !>«(/(/  \i>  liiKrii  iiji.  II.  J.  I'dok,  W.  \Viilk»'it'.\uniiiu>(l. 
('/dim  .Vo.  'J,  "  Tlniniluu"  rcxiiiin-il.  J.  Irving,  J-  A. 
TlioMisnn.  (i.  K.  (irant  inxl  II.  (i.  I,«fwis  cxaniincd.  Kx- 
liihits  No-:.  .M,  rii>,  :,;{,  ")4  and  .">.'>i(i.  H.)  marked  in  evidence. 
iJIniiiiH  Acs.  (!,  7,  !•  (iiiil  !<•  irsiiiiirif.  .1.  A.  'I'lionison  ex- 
amined. iUi.sv  <il  I'liilcil  SIdlvK  ill  Cldiiii  A'o.  1  ifntuin'il. 
T.  Maynesen  t-xamiiu'd.  Cldiins  A'«.s  (>,  7,  i»  did/  !(•  re- 
siiiiu'il.     ('.  F.  (irant  and  \V.  'I'lni  el  e.xamined. 

31st  Session.  Decendier  :U.  1s!m;  pp.  |0(i7-In4M. 
CIdiiii.s  Acs.  ti,  7,  '•>  dinl  jo  idiitiiiiii'd.  ,].  A.  'I'lioinson, 
S.  McC.  Smith  and  (►  Warner  examined.  S.  McC.  Smith 
recalled,  i'liiiiii  Sit.  'J,  "  I'lioi iiloii,"  irmiiiu'd.  A.  (»iay 
examined.  (Jtdiiiin  A'ds.i\.  ~, '.f 'mil  \n  nsiniii'il.  A.  (Jray 
examined.  Discnssion.  Cd.sc  of  I'liUvd  Shitis  in  Ctaim 
A'd.  )  ri'siniH'd.  V.  Hickev  examined.  C/diiii.s  Aus.  "J.  (!, 
7,  \Uiidl  1(1  irsiiitd-il.  (J.  \V.  Cavin.  IT.  U  Lewis,  U  Hen- 
nett  and  L.  (  Usen  examined,  ("orrespondence  reail  in  ovi- 
dcMice.  H.  I'axton  examined  with  reference  to  ('/a//«  A'u. 
26  (pp.  I. ■.;{('.- I.'i4(»)  and  Claim  No.  :>  (pp.  17r)tl-17«ir.). 

:!2nd  Session.  January  ii,  ls)>7.  pp.  Hi4M-l(is;i. 
Discnssion.  Claims  A'os.  ti,  tl,  7,  )•  dii<l  !<•  ri'siimed. 
Docnments  read  in  evidence.  C.  E.  Uaynor  called  on  the 
part  of  the  United  States  and  examined.  L.  Olsen  ex- 
annned.  Inventory  road  in  evidence.  A.  McLean  called 
on  the  part  of  the  ('^nited  Stales  and  examined.  Exhihit 
No.  «» (U.  S.)  marked  in  evidence.  J.  Steele  and  A.  Folger 
called  on  the  part  of  the  United  States  and  examined. 

3.3rd  Session.  Jannary  4,  1S!»7.  pp.  I(tb4-ll33. 
Casi'  df  L'tiilfd  Slates  in  CIdims  Nos.  1  aidl  2  ivsumed. 
M.  L.  Keefe  examined.  Documents  read  in  evidence.  J. 
D.  Warren  examined.  Documents  read  in  evidence.  C'o.sc 
of  Ureal  lirildiu  in  Claim  A'a.  2  resinned.  W.  F.  Bullen 
examined.  The  deposition  of  Andrew  D.  Laing  read  in 
evidence.  Exhihits  Nos.  5(5,  :>7,  .58.  .5!t,  »!(),  (tl,  (i->,  »53,  r.4, 
«i.5,  «!♦),  ('.7  and  (>H  (G.  B.)  marked  in  evidence.  Documents 
read  in  evidence.  Ca.se  of  Untied  Slides  in  Claim  No.  1 
resinned.  A.  McLean,  C  E.  Raynor  and  C.  E.  Clark  ex- 
amined. Chiims  Nos.  0,  7,  0  and  10  resinned.  M.  F. 
Keefe  examined.  Documents  read  in  evidence.  Di.scus- 
sion.    J.  ]).  Warren  examined. 

34th  Session.     January  5,  18!>7.     pp.  11.34-117.5. 
Claims  Nos.  2,  0,  7,  y  and  10  resumed.    J.  D.  Warren 
examined. 

35th  Session.  January  fi.  1SJ)7.  pp.  117.5-1224. 
Claims  Nos.  «>,  7,  9  and  10  resumed.  Exhibit  No.  t>9 
(G.  B. )  marked  in  evidence.  J .  D.  Warren,  W.  J.  Ward  and 
C.  F.  Dillon  examined.  Discussion.  Exhihits  Nos.  70,  71, 
72  and  73  (G.  B.)  marked  in  evidence.  Documents  read  in 
evidence.  Claim  No.  11,  ''Ada,"  taken  vp.  J.  Gaudin  and 
J.  J.  Gray  examined. 

36th  Session.     January  7,  18!»7.     pp.  1224-1276. 

J.  J.  Gray  examination  continued.    Accounts  read  in 

evidence.     H.  V.  Siewerd  examined.     Documents  read  in 

evidence.     Case  of  United  States  opened  in  Claim  No.  11. 

C  E.  Raynor  examined.    Discussion.    C.  E.  Rayuor's  ex- 


TABI.K  OF  CONTKNTH. 


amiiintinn  continiu-d  Ddciinu'iits  it-jMl  in  t'vidciici'.  A. 
Mcl^'iiii  t'XiUiiiiifd.  ( 'a.v  of  I  tiiteil  Stuivs  in  ( 'hum,'.  A'oa. 
0,  7.  !»,  10  <!(/</  II  refill  III  II  I.     J.  j).  Wiirifii  »'.\aiiiiiii'(|.     Dis- 

OUtiHioll. 

37tli  St.sHion.  Jamuiiv  s,  ls!t7,  up.  li'Ttl- 1;!;{7. 
Letters  ifiul  ill  i-vi<l(>ii('(>.  i)is(Ussi(iii  Dnciiiiu'iits  read 
in  evidence.  Clniiii  .\i>.  4,  "  Fiiioniilv"  tiiivn  iifi.  Kx- 
hil)it  N(i.  74  ((i.  H.I  marked  in  evidence.  I'.  S)>riiin  ex 
ainined.  Account  read  in  evidence.  ('Iiiiiii  Sn.  II  rv- 
siiiiii'il.  \{.  Collister  examined.  C/iiiiiis  .\ns.  '2,  ft.  7,  !♦ 
ami  \i>  rcsiiiiii'il.  'I'lieoddie  Davie  examined.  Kxliiltit  .\o. 
7  {V.  S.)  marked  in  evidence,  ('tniui  .\o.  4  ii.siiiinil.  C. 
ypriii};-  and  N.  Moss  examined.  (,'u,sc  nf  I'liitiii  .S7»//e,s 
ofwiii-il  III  Clniiii  So.  4.  A.  McLean  exainiiied.  Kxliihits 
Nos.  s  and  )i  (Vj.  S.  i  aixl  Nos.  7.">  and  7<i  ((J.  H. )  marked  in 
evidence. 

;{Mtli  Sessitiii.  Jaiuiaiy  ii,  l>!»7.  |»|i.  i:i;{7  I :?"»!». 
Transfer  of  evidence.  Clti'iii  .\it.  I'A,  "  Jimiiilii,"  tnkvn 
ufi.  Kxliiliit  No.  77  ((J.  M.  i  marked  in  evidence.  C.  E. 
(Jiark  examined.  Kxliiliit  No.  7s  ((i.  H.)  marked  in  evj- 
deiRi'.  Jtichard  IJall  examined.  Account  read  in  evi- 
dence. ('.  K.  Clark  recalled.  Kxliiliit  No.  7!t  ((J.  B.) 
marked  in  evidence.     Discussion. 

;{!itli  yession.  January  II.  |s!»7.  |i|).  i:!;")'.!  l4o(i. 
C/iiiin  \ii.  s.  "  Alfreil  Ailniiis,'"  Uthii  iiji.  Kxliiliit  No. 
NMti.  H. )  marked  in  evidence.  Discussion.  <  )rder  amend- 
ing |ileadiiiji;s  enteied.  P^xliiliits  Nos.  M  and  S-J  {{i.  Ji.) 
marked  in  evidence  Document  n-ad  in  evidence.  .Morris 
Gutnian  examined.  Discussion.  Documents  read  in  evi- 
deuce.  Exhibit  No.  in  (L'.  S. )  marked  in  evidence.  Claiiii 
No.  20,  "  K'liti',''  tuki'ii  HI).  C.  Spring.  Alexander  Heppen 
and  N.  Moss  examined.  C.  Spring  recalled.  Kxliibit  No. 
83  ((t.  B.)  marked  in  evidence.  N.  Moss  recalled.  Chtiin 
No.  12,  little  "  Tiiiiiii/tli,"  taken  up.  Order  amending 
pleadings  entered.     H.  Smitli  examined. 

40th  Session.  January  12,  I.s!i7.  pp.  14O0-14Ui. 
H.  Smith's  examination  resumed.  Geo.  liyrns  examined. 
Exhihit  No.  M4  (G.  B.)  marked  in  evidence.  H.  Smith  re- 
called. ClaiiH  No.  2;{,  "  (J.srar  and  Jlaltie,''  taken  up.  Ex- 
hibits Nos.  H.->  and  Mt!  (G.  B.)  marked  in  evidence.  J.  L. 
Penney  examined.  Exhibits.  Nos.  H7,  HH,  «!•,  !»o.  !M. '.♦2, 
t>3  and  !t4  ((..  B.)  marked  in  evidence.  Discussion.  Ex- 
amination continued. 

41st  Session.     January  13,  1S!»7.     pp.  1417-14r)r). 
Claim  No.  IS.  "  Triiimp/i,"  taken  up.     Exhibit   No.  Uh 
(G.  B.)  marked  in  evidence.     Document  read  in  evidence. 
E.  C.  Baker  examined.     Account  read  in  evidence.     Ex- 
amination continued.     Extract  from  log  read  in  evidence 
Exhibit  No.  11  {[].  S.) marked  in  evidence.     Claim  No.  17, 
''Minnie,"  taken  up      Exhibit  No.  lHi(G.  B.)  marked  in 
evidence.     T.  Magne.sen  and  Victor  Jacobson   examined. 
Exhihit  No.  !)7  (G.  B.)  marked  in  evidence.     Documents 
read   in  evidence.     Claim   No.  is   resumed.     E.  C.  Baker 
recalled.     J.  C.  Blackett  examined.     Exhibit  No.  12  (U 
S.)  marked   in  evidence.      Discussion.      Claim   No    1)» 
''Ariel,"  taken  np.    Exhibit  No.  !i8  (G.  B.)  marked  in  evi'- 
donee.     S.  W.  Buckuam  examined. 

42nd  Session.     January  !4,  lsy7.     pp.  14«>5-1507. 
S.  VV.  Bucknam's  examination   resumed.     Discussion, 
b.  W.  Bucknam  recalled.     H.  Smith  and  G.  C.  Gerow  ex- 


VI 


TABLE  or  t'ONTKNTS. 


amincd.  DihciiNHiun.  Cluini  .\n.  H,  "  I'allifiii<lei;"  taken 
tift.  Kxhihit  No.  IMt  ((i.  B.)  iiiiirkutl  in  uvidciic**.  DiHrus- 
Bioi).  Oniur  atii<>iiiliiig  plfailings  eiitert'd.  W.  MuiiHie 
L>.\ainiiirtl. 

4.11(1  S«'ssioii.  January  15,  IH)»7,  pp.  15(17-1663. 
(J/niiii  Nik  l'4,  "  W'iiiiftvil"  ttikvii  up.  StatoiiicntH  by 
founsri.  \V.  ('.  Cnnlson  oxaniinrd.  Kxtiacts  froni  cut- 
teis'  lojrs.  Cltu'iii  .\n.  i!:t  ri'sinueil.  DiMinnciit  it'ad  iiit'vi- 
di-nco.  C/niiii  .\(>.  lit  trsnnii'il.  S.  W.  Mnckiiani  ex- 
aniintMl.  Kxliiliit  No.  I(mi  i'(!.  U.)  iiiarknl  mi  <>vjdeiice. 
L'luiiii  S(i.-i:>,  "  Wniiihrvi"  hikiii  nit.  H.  I'axton's  testi- 
ninny  printed.  A.  Hjciii'  t'xaininfil.  Kxliil)it  No  |(»l 
((«.  h. )  marked  in  cvidfiicc  C/niiii  A'o. 
Minisif  I'xaniini'd  Kxliil)it  .NO.  i:til' 
donci'. 


14  rfsiiiin'il.   Wni. 
S. )  Miarkt'd  in  cvi- 


pp.  i:..".:'.  I5sn. 


Discussion.     Kx- 
( 'Iniiiis  Sns.  -2, »!, 


44tli  Session.  January  hi.  l,s!»7. 
Cluiiii  St).  L'4  iTsniiifil.  Statt'nicnt  of  W.  ('.  Coidson. 
Wni.  Munsif's  fxiMuinaliun  coiiiinut'd  Kxliihits  Nos.  14 
ami  l.">(r.  s. )  marked  in  rvidctin'  t'hiiin.n  .Yo.s.  •!,  7,  •> 
tniil  \i>  nsiiiiiiil.  II.  .M, 'I'liornton  <alli'il  ou  Hie  part  of  the 
I'nitt'd  Staffs  luid  rxiiniiicd  (also  pp.  P'lU:)  ICioih.  Sp*>^i^d 
rxaiuiiuT  ,ippi>iiit<'<l  to  tiikc  liis  ilcposition  aftci' adjoinn- 
nit'iit 

45tli  Session.  January  Is,  |s!t7.  pp.  l.">S(»-|t;2!». 
Clnhii  .\n.  i4  ri'.siiiiD'il.  \\  in.  Munsic  rccallcil.  Kxhihit 
No.  |oj  (Vt.  H.I  marked  in  evidence.  K.  Cariie.  Jr.,  ex- 
aminerl.  Document  read  in  evidence, 
hiliit  No  Hi  {['.  S.I  marked  in  evidence. 
7,  '.uiiiil  jo  ir.siiiiirif.  Deposition  of  II.  .M.  Thornton,  taken 
Jan.  Itith.  read  in  evidence,  C.  K.  Kayiioraiid  II.  Noiinan 
examined.  Chiiiii  .Yo.  17  ri'.sKiiifd.  \'.  lacohson  and  A. 
L.  Helyea  examined.  C/niiii.s  .Vo.s.  ti,  7.  i»  (iml  pi  ri'.siiiiit'd. 
J.  I).  Warren  recalled.  Discussion.  Condition  of  (Mainia 
Nos.  14,  l'4  and  :.'.">  considered. 

Pith  Session,  .lannary  I'.i,  |sii7.  pp.  I «•_".>- 1»{7!>. 
Discussion.  Report  of  (\)nsnl  Myers  read  in  evidence. 
<  'til III  .\o.  14  ii'sniiii'il.  W .  Mniisie  examined.  Kxhihit 
?  .).  17  d'  S.I  marked  in  evidence.  CIniiii  A'o.  i':.',  "  lleii- 
ih'ttn,"  tiiki'ii  iiji.  Kxhihit  No.  pi:!  ((J.  H.i  marked  in  evi- 
dence. Documents  read  in  evidence.  M.  I'inckney  ex- 
amined. Kxhihits  Nos.  lo4,  lo.".,  piii.  pi7  and  ins  (Ci.  B.) 
marked  in  evidence.  T.  J.  Flampttin,  \V.  Khineier  and  C. 
Doling  examined. 

47th  Session.     January  l'o.  I,s!i7.     pp.  li>7!»-  172:i 
Claim  Xo.  ±2  icniiiiril.    M.  Pinckney  examined.    Case 
of  United  States  in  L'lahn  So.  1  ii'snmet/.     M.  Turner  and 
A.  Andersen  examined.    M.  Turner  recalled.    VV.  H.  Thorn- 
ley  examined. 

4Sth  Session.  January  lil,  Isft7.  pp.  17'2:i-1772. 
W.  H.  Thornley's  examination  continned.  F.  Payne  and 
P.  C.  Meyer  examined.  Claim  Xo.  22  resumed.  C.  Spring 
and  W.  Turpel  examined.  Order  entered  in  Claim  No.  18 
with  reference  to  returning  Exhibit.  Claim.s  Nos.  '22  and 
24  resumed.  A.  L.  Belyea,  J.  F.  Fell  and  H.  Siddail  ex- 
amined. Exhibit  No.  ini>  (G.  B.)  marked  in  evidence. 
Transfer  of  evidence  made.  Claim  Xo.'24  resumed.  Order 
amending  pleadings  entered.  Exhibit  No.  llu  (G.  B.) 
marked  in  evidence.  Documents  read  in  evidence.  C. 
Spring  examined.  Claim  Xo.  5,  "  Black  Diamond,"  taken 
up.     H.  Paxton's  testimony   printed.     Claim  No.  22  re- 


TAIU.K  OK  ('ONTKNTS. 


VII 


aniiifd.  Kxhiltit  No.  I^(U■.S. iniarktd  in  cvideiic*'.  Claim 
Nil-  •>  rr.siniiitt.  C/iiiiii  \i).  I.">,  "  n/iiik'  IhtniHtHit,"  takt-u 
11/).  <  )\vt'ii  Thoiiiiis  t'X.imiiictl.  ( 'Iniiii  .\'n.  1  iisuhu'd. 
Ovvi'ii  'l"liniiia>*  t'XMiniiinl. 

41itli  St'Hsion.  .Imiiiary  -'-'.  I*"!*",  pp.  l77i'-lHiMt. 
Stiitt'iiH'iits  liy  (oiinst'l.  Cliiimn  .\o.  r>  ontl  Xo.  I."»  rf- 
siinii'tl.  ( »\V('ii  TliiMiias  cxaiiiiiH'fl.  Cliiiiu  .\n.  I  rvsniiu'd. 
W.  [|.  Tliuriili'v  I'xaiiiint'd.  l)i>ciisHi()n.  Chiiiii  So.  l.'4 
resiniit'il.  K.vliil)it  \i>.  Ill  lO.  H. i  and  Nd.  Il>  il'.  S.) 
niarkt'd  in  t-s  idcnii'.  Docnnn-nts  read  in  cvidcnic.  ('/tii>u 
.\o.  \:>  ii'.sniiiiil.  Kxliil)its  Nos.  I  iL'and  I  |:'.((i.  H.iinaikcd 
in  t'\  idt'iicc.  l)is(ii:isi(Mi.  Stipulation  c:un(t'i  ning  C'lanns 
No.  .')  and  No.  1 1  fll*-d. 

."loHi  Session.  .lannarv  :.':'.,  l>!iT.  pp.  |s|n-Is-.>r,. 
Cliiiiii  .Vo.  :il,  "  I'lillijiiidrr."  Iiih'ii  nit.  |)isi  iissiim. 
C'lniiii  \t).  I."»  ri'siiiiiiul.  Docinncnt  read  in  t'vidt'iue. 
Cliuiii  Sit.  \*\,"  IJhi."  hih'ii  iiji.  Discussion.  |)ornnu'nts 
re;id  in  cvidfrnc  kxldijits  Nos.  Il4((i.  Ii.)and  I'oiL'.  S.) 
niai  kni  in  cvidcnct'.  Discnssion.  ('laiiii  So  I  rcsinitit!. 
DiMiiini'nts.  Cliiiiti.s  .Vo.s-.  •_'.  t>,  7,  '.1  uml  |n  risnnied. 
Docnnn'iit.  rrad  in  i'\  idiMKtv 

.Mst  ScsNion.  .J.nui.n  V  :.'.'>,  |sit7.  pp.  |s-_>.",-isJ:>. 
Cldiiii  Sii.  I.'i  resiiiiivd.  DociMnents  rtMcl  in  <'vi(li'nce. 
Kxhiliit  Nw  •1\  I IJ.  S. )  in  II  l;cd  in  evidence.  (  hiiiii  So.  14 
n-.'iiiiiicil.  .Statenieii*  liv  coinisel.  Clunii  So.  s  rcsiiiiivd. 
Docnmonfs  icad  in  'idencn.  (.'hiitii.s  Nos.  -2,  Woinl  Iti  //;- 
sniin'il.  Stalt'inent.s  by  ci  unsi  1.  Cliiiiii  St).  2t!,  "  Sai/- 
Viinl  L'o.sl.s."  fnh'ii  '>}>.  Discussion  concerning  motion  to 
disiniss.  Kxliiliits  Nos.  II.".,  1  bli'i.  H. )  iniikedin  evidence. 
Transfei  of  evideiict>  and  'losing  of  claim.  Ctoiiii  So.  '2'> 
J'oifiKilll/  o/ii'iicd.  Discii.ssioii  Docnment!-  read  in  evi- 
dence. Cf'iiiiis  .Vos.  ('.,  7,  '.» (iitil  |()  lU'.snmcd.  T.  H.  I'ooper 
examined.  Exiiihit  No.  Il7i(r.  B.)  marked  in  evidence. 
Cloiiii  So.  11  rr.sitiiipd.  .J.  .J.  (Jiay  examined.  Docnment 
read  in  evidence. 

."ii'nd  Session.     Jannaiy  •2>>,  lsi»7.     p.  |s4l'. 
Adjoiunincnt  of  iiearint*. 

.■);'.rd  Session.  Jannaiy  l'7,  1S!I7.  pp.  I.s4:{-i,stl2. 
Discnssion.  Chiiiii  So.  II  ri'.stinicd.  J.  J.  Gray  ex- 
amined. Cfitim  Sn.  2<>  n'.siiiiied.  Urdci' entered  witli  re- 
spect to  motion  to  dismiss.  Claim  Ao.  1  resumed.  Ex- 
hibit So.  I'li  (  L*.  S. )  marked  in  evidence.  Discnssion.  Kef- 
erences  to  dficumeiits.  Exhibits  Nos.  lis,  ll'.t.  Il'o  and 
121  ((i.  B.)  marked  in  evidence.  Discnssioii.  Claim  No. 
1")  resiniu'd.  Document  read  in  evidence.  Claim  .Vo.  Hi 
resumed.  Statement  by  counsel.  Claims  Nos.  <>,  7,  It  atid 
l(t  resumed.     J.  D.  Warren  examined. 

54th  Session.  January  -J?',  |S!t7.  jjp.  ls(;2-]s!Mt. 
Claim  N^o.  1  resumed.  Statement  by  counsel  as  to 
SKi'eed  valuation  of  skins.  Wm.  Muusie "examined.  Ex- 
hibits Nos.  2:5.  24,  -T),  2<t  and  27  (U.  S.)  marked  in  evi- 
dence. J.  D.  Warren  recalled.  Exhibit  No.  28  (LT,  S.) 
marked  in  evidence.  Claims  Nos.  <»,  7,  !♦  aud  |(»  resumed. 
Statement  by  J.  D.  Warren.  Richard  Hull  examined. 
Exhil>it  No.  122  (G.  B.;  marked  in  evidence.  Discussion. 
Exhibit  ...>.  2!>  (U.  S.)  marked  in  evidence.  Discussion. 
Claim  No.  1  resumed  L.  Olsen  examined.  Order  entered 
with  respect  to  substitution  of  copies  of  Exhibits  in  Claim 
No.  11.  Claims  Nos.  l^  and  It!  resumed.  J.  D.  Warreu 
examined.     Claim  No.  1  resumed.     T.  Luhbe  examined. 


VIII 


TABLE  OF  CONTENTS. 


Discussion.  Examination  continued.  Classification  of 
seal  skins  read  in  evidence.  Claim  Ao.  ii2  resumed.  C. 
Spring  examined.  Discussion.  Claim  No.  12  resumed. 
Exhil)it  No.  1'2;5  i^ti.  B.)  marked  in  evidence.  Case  of 
United  States  in  Claim  No.  1  resumed.  A.  McLean  and 
C.  E.  Kaynor  examined. 

("iSth  Session.  January  'i!»,  l«!t7.  pp.  18;tl»-i}>27. 
Discussion.  Claim  No.  25  resumed.  Statement  by 
counsel.  Claim  No.  1  resumed:  Documents  read  in  evi- 
dence. B.  H.  T.  Diake  examined.  Docun)ent  read  in  evi- 
deuce.  Discussion.  Claim  No.  11  resumed.  Documents 
read  in  evidence.  Claims  Nos.  s,  i:,  oml  l(t  resumed.  A. 
R.  Milne  examined.  Claim  No.  1  resumed.  Order  entered 
denying  application  for  commission.  K.  Beaven  examined. 
Discussion.  Claims  Nos.  15  aud  l(i  re.'^umed.  Agreed 
statement  by  counsel.     Claim  No.  1  resumed.     Discussion. 

5t)tb  Ses.sion.  January  So,  1S!»7.  pp.  1928-1970. 
Discussion.  Document  read  in  evidence.  T.  Lubbe 
examined  on  the  part  of  the  United  States.  Discussion. 
F.  Siewetd's  statetnent.  G.  Hansen  examined  on  the  part 
of  Great  Britain.  Testimony  of  A.  Watson,  Jr  ,  G.  Han- 
sen, L.  Olsen  aud  C.  Spring '|)rinted.  Great  Britain  rests 
in  all  cases.  Counsel  for  United  States  make  statement 
and  rest  in  all  cases.  Creat  Britain's  case-  in  rebuttal  in 
Claim  No.  1  resumed.  A.  McLean  examined.  Discussion. 
Documents  lead  in  evidence.  Great  Britain's  ease  in  re- 
buttal ill  Claims  Nos.  2,  ;{  and  is  taken  vp.  Discussion. 
Exhibit  No.  125  (G.  B.)  marked  in  evidence.  Great  Brit- 
tiiii's  case  in  rebuttal  in  Claims  Nos  2,  (i,  7,  l»  and  10  takeM 
up.  Exhibit  No.  124  (G.  B.)  marked  in  evidence.  J.  Bos- 
covvitz  examined. 

57th  Session.  February  1,  1S!)7.  pp.  I1>71-1981>. 
J.  Boscowit/Zs  examination  continued.  Exhibits  Nos. 
30  (U.  S.)  and  120  and  127  (G.  B.)  marked  in  evidence. 
Documents  read  in  evidence.  United  States  case  in  sur- 
rebutlal  in  Claim  No.  2  taken  up.  A.  McLean  and  C. 
Spring  examined.  Discussion.  Exhibit  No.  128  (G.  B.) 
marked  in  evidence. 

58th  Session.  February  2,  1897.  pp.  1990-2002. 
Communication  from  the  two  Governments  concerning 
Claims  Nos.  5  and  11  received  by  the  Commissioners  aud 
filed.  Agreement  between  counsel  with  regard  to  print- 
ing. Discussion.  Claims  Nos.  (i,  7,  8,  9,  10  and  11  re- 
sumed.  Document  read  in  evidence.  Claim  No.  8  re- 
sumed.  A.  Frank  examined.  Discussion.  Statements  by 
counsel.  Agreement  as  to  transferring  testimony.  Ad- 
journment oi  Commission. 


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Uefure  the  Cummitiiiioners  under  the  Cunveutiun  of  February  8, 
ltt*J6,  between  Ureat  Britain  and  tlm  United  States  uf  America, 
fur  the  Settlement  of  Claimti  Preseuted  by  (Ireat  Itritain  AfraiuHt 
the  United  States  in  Virtue  of  the  Cuuveutiou  uf  February  2», 
18»2. 


At  the  Chambers  of  the  LegiHlative  Assembly  in  the  City  of  Victoria, 
I'rovince  of  British  Columbia,  this  Twenty-third  Day  of  Aov- 
ember,  in  the  Year  of  Our  Lord  One  Thousand  Eiffht  lluudred 
and  Niuety-six  (1896). 


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At  tliri'4'  o'ulociv  in  tlic  aftfiuooii  of  ilnn  dii.v,  fli**  Hoiioiir 
al>li>  <i('ui'^t>  E^dwin  Kiuv^  <'(iiiiiiiiHHi<>iiLM'  on  tli*'  part  of  }I<-i' 
Krilannic  Majesty,  and  tlu'  llonouraldc  Will'am  L.  Putnam. 
C'ouinilMsioncr  uii  tli<*  ])ai't  of  tl;(>  I  iiitod  ^^tati-M  of  Anu'rica. 
appcari'd  and  took  tlicir  s*-atH. 

Tilt ■r('Uj)on  tlie  CoinniiiSMiom'i-  on  tlie  part  of  Ilt-r  Majesty 
made  the  following!  annoimeemeiits  :  .:  Iiis  own  lielialf  and  on 
helialf  and  at  the  reipu-st  of  liis  as^M  eiate  Commissioner. 

Tlie  Conimissionei-  on  the  jiart  of  Her  Majesty: — Tlie  sit 
tiiifjof  the  Coniinissioners  iindt-i-  tiie  eoiiventlon  of  February 
S,  1H!I(!,  for  tlie  settlement  of  elaims  presented  l»y  (Jreat 
Itritnin  a^'ainst  the  Inited  Stat<'s  l»y  virtue  of  the  Conven- 
tioii  of  February  !'!(.  \HU'2,  is  now  open.  The  Commissions 
have  been  intereliaiiueably  examined  and  found  eorrect.  TIk- 
Coiiimissioners  have  stveiMliy  taken  the  oath  required  by 
the  Convention. 

They  have  a])pointed  as  Seeretary  Mr.  Chandler  P.  .Vjider 
.son,  of  tlie  City  of  New  York.  1 'shall  read  the  formal  ap- 
pointment that  has  been  made. 

Tlieapp<diilment  was  read  and  Mr.  Anderson  took  his  seat 
.'IS  Seeretary. 

The  Commissioner  on   the  p;'.rt   of    ller    Majesty: — I'nder 
the  powers   aUvu   to  ap|ioiiit    eleiks,   a    number  of  appoint 
meiits  have  been  made,  whirli  will  be  ri'ad  by  the  Secretary 

rile  Seeretary  then  read  the  list  of  the  aitpoiiitnients.) 

The  Comiiiissi(Hier  (Ui  the  part  of  ller  Majesty:— The  Com- 
missicmers  have  be.-ii  advised  by  the  respective  ),'ov«'riiments, 
of  counsel  who  have  been  selected  to  appear  before  the  Com 
mission,  viz:— The  lion.  l>oii  M.  Dickinson,  of  tlie  City  of 
l»»-troit,  in  the  State  of  .Miclii<;aii,  for  tlu-  Inittnl  Statc-s  of 
America,  and  Hobert  l.ansiiift,  Ksq.,  of  Watertown.  in  the 
State  of  New  York,  as  associate  counsel.  And,  on  behalf 
of  I Li-r  .Majesty,  the  lion.  Frederick  IVters.  of  Charlottettiwn. 
ill  the  Province  of  I'rinci'  Kdwards  Island,  Attorney  (lenerai 
of  said  Province,  and  Frederick  L.  Ileiqiie,  Q.  C., '<»f  Mont 
real,  in  the  Province  of  Ciiiebec.  as  associate  counsel,  and 
Krnest  Victor  Itodwell,  barrister,  of  the  City  of  Victoria. 
w)<o  appears  as  (ieiieral  Solicitiu-  for  ller  .Majestv.  Tliesi- 
.".re  the  counsel,  so  far  at   least  as  we  have  bei'ii  advist-d. 

The  Coiiimissioners  desire  to  put  upon  recoril  their  urati 
fleatimi  with  the  facilities  furnished  tlieiii  liy  the  Provinc. 
of  Mritish  Columbia  for  their  sessions  at    tlie  City  of   Vic 

X.. 


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toriu,  and  dirt>ct  the  HiHiretarv  to  coiuiiiiinicate  tliia  cxpren- 
elon  to  the  Lleutenaiit-tioveriior  of  the  Province. 

Mr.  Petere: — Your  HonouvH  unnouiM'ed  that  the  i'oinmiH- 
Bion  hud  oflieial  notii'e  that  certain  counsel  w«'re  appointed 
on  behalf  of  Oreat  Britain.  As  m-nior  connHel,  I  would  like 
to  announce  that  it  in*  <»ur  desire  tha^  Sir  <'harles  Hibbert 
Tupper  also  be  associated  with  us  as  Tounsel  for  (Jreat 
Britain,  he  having  biH'n  retained  especially  bv  people  parti 
cularl.v  interested  in  the  nuitter.  We  take  it  that  the  (|ues 
tion  of  nssoi-iate  counsel  is  a  matter  entirely  resting  with 
the  senior  counm'l.  and  we  ther»'fore  desire  that  Sir  Charles 
llibbert  Tupper  should   be  associated    with    us  as   counsel. 

The  <.'ouiniisBi(Hier  on  the  part  of  tlie  I'nited  States: — On 
your  own  responsibility.  Mr.  I*«>ters? 

Mr.  Peters: — I  take  the  responsibility  of  it. 

The  ("onimissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — 
Neither  Sir  ('harles  nor  anyone  else  can  sjteak  here  except 
for  Her  Majesty's  Uovernnient. 

Mr.  Peters :- -That  is  the  ]iosition  we  take,  that  there  an; 
only  two  parties  before  this  court — the  (Soverninent  of  thy 
I'uited  States  and  the  (iovernnient  of  (ircat   Britain. 

The  t'oiuniissioner  on  tlie  part  of  the  I'uited  States: — Then 
my  associate  agrees  with  nie  that  Sir  ('hurles  llibbert  Tup- 
l»er  be  recognized  as  assoc-iate  couus«'l  in  behalf  of  Her  Ma- 
jesty's tloverniuent,  on  your  responsibility  as  senior  counsel. 

Mr.  Peters: — In  reading  (he  list  of  ciiunsel.  if  1  understood 
Justice  King  correctly,  he  read  the  name  of  Mr.  Bodwell  as 
solicitor  only  and  agent.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  the  instruc 
lion  1  have  is  that  he  is  also  junior  couus«'l,  and  that  is  the 
understanding.  To  my  own  knowledge  he  was  appointed 
local  agent  and  junior  counsel. 

The  t'oinmissiouer  on  the  part  «)f  the  I'nited  States: — We 
agr<>e  that  that  may  stand  on  the  same  footing  as  with  ref- 
erence to  Sir  < 'harles  H.  Tupjter. 

The  t'ommiHsioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — Is  there 
any  other  suggesticm  that  counsel  have  to  make  as  to  the 
business  of  the  day? 

Mr.  IMckinson: — May  it  please  the  < Commissioners:  I  de 
sire  t<»  present,  merely  to  have  it  go  upon  record,  ('harles 
B.  Warren,  Esij.,  a  member  of  the  Federal  bar  and  t»f  the 
State  bar  in  the  I'nited  States,  to  attend  to  such  duties  as 
may  be  assigned  to  him  by  (he  counsel  of  the  I'nited  States. 
This  is  in  accordance  with  the  precedent,  may  it  please  your 
Honours,  on  pri(U-  commissions. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'uited  States; — Does 
that  include  the  nuitter  of  counsel? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — We  assume,  nuiy  the  Comtuissitmers 
phase,  that  the  (Counsel  appointed  are  officially  notified  by 
their  respective  governments,  and  we  do  not  fw'l.  In  behalf 
of  our  government,  that  we  are  authorized  to  name  other 
counsel. 

The  CominisBloner  on  tlie  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — Not 
then  to  be  heai*d  as  counsel? 

Mr.  IMckinson: — For  such  duties  as  we  assign.  It  is  In 
accordance  with  the  prcce<lent  of  other  commiKsions. 

After  s«»me  discussion  between  «ounsel  and  the  Coinmis- 
shtners.  It  was  agreed  that  tlu>  dally  sessions  shall  be  from 
U)  o'clock  in  the  morning  until  4  o'clock  in  the  afternoon, 


4 

m 


with  Jin  lioiir'H  iiiicriniHHioii.  from  one  to  two, 
wise  or<l«-i'iHl  by  tlu'  CoiniiiissioiuTH. 


until  other 


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Mr.  IN'torH: — The  couiihcI  of  th«*  T'uitcd  Statt'w  and  ni.vwlf 
took  upon  oiirwlves  tht'  drafting  of  ccrlain  rules  wliii-li  w«' 
|iro|ioMc  to  Hubinit  t(»  this  Tribunal,  ni«>rt>ly  as  sii^p'stions. 
Sonu>  of  tlioHe  rules  we  ajrreed  upon,  so  far  an  w«'  were  eon 
eenu'd.  and  Nome  of  them  we  were  unable  to  agree  upon; 
and,  5f  it  wiP  be  of  any  aKslsfanee  to  IhiH  Tribunal,  I  will  be 
happy  to  lay  that  draft  before  yoii  now. 

The  <'oniniin8ioner  on  the  part  of  ller  M.ijesty — We  will 
be  very  happy  to  ri'ceivr  tiiein,  as   I   underslan<l   there  has 
be<'n  a  coneurrenoe  of  eounst'l  in  a  large  number,  which  con 
furrence  will  be  noted,  I  presume. 

Mr.  Peters: — Y«'8,  your  Honour.  I  was  tioinj;  to  explain 
to  the  Commission  that  that  draft  I  am  presenting  now  is 
the  complete  one,  with  the  objectionable  clause  in  it.  I 
have  a  separate  one  with  the  clause  as  proposed — clause  4 
These  rules,  1  may  state,  are  fountled  to  a  certain  extent 
upon  the  rules  followed  by  the  Tribunal  at  Halifax,  the  Fish- 
eries Tribunal. 

<'lause  4,  as  proposed  by  in«',  is  as  follows: 

"4.  An  far  as  j)racticable,  each  claim  shall  be  proci-edtd 
with  separately,  and  tlu'  evidence  thereon  on  both  sides 
closed,  before  the  procecdini-s  cm  any  other  claim  are  begun; 
except  such  tvid«'nce  as  may  be  specially  reserv»'d  to  be  ad- 
dui-ed  later  on  on  special  <ause  shown." 

That  was  the  <-lause  as  proposed  on  behalf  of  Her  IJritan-' 
nic  Majesty.       As  a  counter  itropositi<m  to  that,  my  leani'ul 
friend  on  the  other  side,  Mr.  Dickinson,  jtroposed  the  clause 
which  you  have  in  your  hand,  as  follows: 

"4.  On  such  day  as  shall  have  been  lixed  by  the  Commis 
sioners.  the  counsel  for  the   ISritish  (Jovcrnnient  shall   pro 
ceed  to  adduce  their  evidence  in  sui»poit  of  the  claims  of  He:- 
Itritannic  Majesty's  (Sovernment,  in  the  order  of  their  pr"- 
sentation.       So  soon  as  the  Hritish  (lovi'rninent  shall  havj 
closed  its  evidence  upon  all  said  claims,  the  evid»'nce  on  be-^ 
lialf  of  the  ("nited  States  shall  be  adduced  in  the  same  order.' 
and  after  such  evidence  is  presented,  the  "vidence  in  rebut- 
tal, if  any,  in  like  manner  may  be  giv<  n." 

The  difference  between  us  is.  that  the  I'nited  Slat«'S  Oov- 
eminent  proposes  that  the  Itritish  counsel  shall  put  their 
whole  case  in,  all  their  claims,  before  they  are  called  on  to 
give  any  evidence.  That  is,  generally  speaking,  tlu!  ditTer 
ence  between  us.  We  contend  that  under  the  Convention 
those  claims  are  treated  as  separate  and  distinct  claims, 
that  the  proceedings  before  this  commissictn  should  follow, 
the  same  rule,  and  that  th«'se  cases  should  be  treated,  so  far 
:is  possible,  as  separate  claims.  We  submit,  and  it  appears 
to  us,  that  it  would  be  unfair  to  ask  us  to  juit  in  all  our  evi 
deuce,  and  allow  them  to  keep  back  all  their  evidence  and 
giv«'  it  in  on*'  mass.  It  aiijiears  to  us  that  it  would  give  an 
.indue  advantage  to  the  case  of  the  I'nited  States,  and  that 
the  proper  rule  would  be  to  try  each  case,  so  far  as  practi 
cable,  sepunitely.  That  is  the  c<mtention  we  have  on  that 
rule. 

Of  course,  as  I  said  before,  these  are  nn're  suggestions, 
but,  so  far  as  the  suggestions  are  concerned,  we  are  agreed, 
with  the  exception  of  rule  4,  as  to  which  we  entirely  dis 
agree. 


rule    proposed,    to 


Mr.  Dickins<m:— I   will    read  the  last 
which  I  understand  there  is  objtM'tion. 

Mr.  I'etei-s :— The  objecticm  we  had  to     it      was     that   wo 
thought  the  Commission  already  had  the  p(»w«'r  to  deal  with 


all  i|iu-sUoiiH  ])rii|M>w«l  by  tliiit  rule,  and  that  I'lili*  iui};lit  lu> 
i-(iiiHti'iU'«l  aH  an  at  tempt  to  liiiiil  IIh  |iowcrH. 

TIm'  roiiiiniHMioiit'r  on  tlio  part  of  tlit'  rnited  Htati's: — Vou 
arc  ri-fcrrinij;  now  to  rnk'  l(i? 

-Mr.  I'rttTH: — Tlif  rule  I  wan  about  t«»  read. 

.Mr.  DiikinHon: — TIiIh  Ih  the  ri;le  which  I  handed  my  learn 
ed  friend  this  morninii;,  but  he  omitted  to  briti;  hin  copy. 
lO         lI'ropoMed   rule  read.) 

It  clears  the  way  to  t)ie  ))roduction  of  documentary  testi 
UKMiy  and  saves  all  question,  because  the  4Mi(;inals  are  not 
pres«'nted. 

.Mr.  I'eters: — I  do  not  object  to  the  rule,  provided  it  is  not 
construed  as  limiting  thi>  ])owers  under  th(>  words  "autlien 
tic  evidenc«>."       I   thought,  perhaps,  ^om«'     things  niip;lit   be 
"authentic  evidence"  which  are  not  mentiimed  in  that  rule, 
and  that  is  all. 

30  The  ('(immissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — Will 
yon  read  it  a.u;ain,  please.  I  do  not  <|nit(*  catch  the  words 
objected  to. 

.Mr.  I'eters: — The  words  in  the  Convention  are:  "Tlie 
Commissioners  are  authori/.ed  to  receive  all  huilable  aulheu 
tic  testimony  concerning  the  sime."  This  rule  ]U'opose*l  by 
my  learned  friend  simply  describes  one  class  of  suitable  au- 
tlu'niic  testimony,  and  there  may  be  other  evidence  which 
woubl  lie  just  as  suitable  and  just  as  authentic;  and,  if  that 
30  rule  passed,  it  nii^ht  be  conslrueil  as  limiting;  as  to  that  kind 
of  evidence  only,  thenby  lu-evcntiuf;  us  frtan  ]Mittin(;  in  evi 
dence  which  otherwise  would  be  suitable  and  authentic.  I 
have  no  objection  to  the  rule  so  far  as  it  };oes,  if  it  is  not 
ctmsidercd  as  limiting  us  entirely  to  that   class. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  (he  I'nited  States:  — 
V'ould  not  your  objection  be  nu-t  if  .Mr.  IHckinson  should  add 
to  it,  "this  is  not  to  be  coiislrue<l  to  limit  the  power  of  tin- 
<'ommission  under  a  certain  jtarajfraph  in  the  Convention? 

40         Mr.  I'j'ters: — We  accept  that  amendment. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — So  that  you  Honours  see  that  in  counsels' 
ricpitialituis,  which  have  ben  conducted  with  the  utmost 
fairness  on  the  side  of  the  counsel  for  Her  Majesty's  (iov 
crnnient,  we  have  nnide  some  expedition  in  preparing  for  the 
session  during  our  presi  nee  here  in  X'ictoriu.  We  dilTer, 
as  w'll  be  (dtserved,  only  upon  proi»iised  rule  4,  and  ther«'  we 
differ  radically.  These  claims  arc  not  presented  separately. 
.\  claim   is  made  by   Her  Majestv's  (ioverument      upon   the 

50  (ioverument  of  the  I'nited  States  for  a  sum  of  money 
claimed  to  b<>  due  for  daniau:es  rcsultiim  to  Mritish  subjects 
by  certain  unlawful  seizures  nuide  by  the  < ioverument  of  *'  • 
I'nitid  States.  It  is  true  that  in  the  Convention  the  e\  1 
dence,  to  a  certain  extent,  which  ^:oes  to  make  up  that  claim 
is  pointed  <mt  by  a  cei'taiu  schedule  naminjr  the  ships  beyond 
which,  and  beyond  the  items  named  in  the  schedule — (»r  the 
description  of  the  ships  named  in  the  schedule — Her  Majes 
ty's  (iovernment  cannot  t;o,  before  this  Commission.  Tlial 
was  the  (diject  of  the  list  of  ships  iippended  to  the  Coiiven- 

<$Q  lion  and  tlie  list  of  claims  pointint;  oat  the  eviilence 
teiidiiii;  to  sii]iport  the  one  claim  of  Her  .Majestv's  tiovern 
nieni  for  a  sum  of  money  apiinst  the  I'liiled  Stales.  It 
would  be  auainst  the  thc<iry  of  this  Convention  to  hold  (hat 
the  (ioverument  of  the  Inited  States  should  close  its  case 
in  d<  fence,  in  this  assessment  of  damajies,  in  X'icloria.  The 
theory  of  the  Convention,  as  finally  a^fieed  upon  is,  that  the 
evidence  to  establish  and  verifv  the  claim  of  (ireat  Itritaiii 
should  be  put  in  in   Victoria,  in   Itrilish  Columbia,  but  that 


s 


20 


tlic  ilaim  of  (li'ft'iicf — llic  cnsc  of  (lie  I'liitcd  Stntt'H — inijjlil 
l)<>  |iut  ill  ill  IIh'  rity  of  Siiii  FiniiciKcti;  iiiitl  for  tlinl  piirposc, 
to  n'wv  (lie  <'oiiiiiiisHioii  jiropcr  iiowrrs.  iiii  Act  of  CoiinifHS 
Wiis  pasm'tl,  si^iiiMJ  liy  tin*  l'i<'Niil<'iit.  jiimI  Ih'OIIih'  ti  law.  We 
may  lie  iiiiNtaiicn.  Imt  we  tliiiil*  not.  At  all  cvciitM.  the  eaw 
of  the  riiilcd  StalcH  in  tlcfcncc  has  been  ]H'i'|)a!-i-d  on  tlic 
tlicory  that  we  wen-  to  put  in  our  caH*'  in  dcft'iico  iiiiitc 
laryt'ly  at  San  Fran«iH'«>.  and  it  is  well  Kt-ttlfd  that  we  could 
not  coni|icl  ccrlain   ri-liictant    witiicssfs  in   the  City  of  San 

10  riancisco.  w!io  have  liccn  ciifrafit'd  in  tin-  s(>alin^  Inisiiifss. 
to  ionic  to  N'ictoria;  and  it  is  intended,  as  wc  iiiidcrstan<l  it. 
Ity  this  convention  tliat,  so  far  as  nmy  lie.  (lie  lestiiiioiiy 
shall  he  oral  before  your  Honors,  it  appearing;  before  (lie 
llitfii  rribiinal  :>(  I'ari.s  that  there  was  a  wid«'  ditl'ei-eiice  in 
tile  slateinents  of  the  witnesses  when  iiifoiiiially  presented 
liy  ex  parte  alltdavits.  There  was  no  reconciling;  them: 
there  was  no  attempt  of  the  Tribunal  to  reconcile  tlieiii.  So 
that,  with  (his  <lil1iciilty  appaicnt  on  the  records  of  the  I'ariu 
Tribunal,  the  represeiiialives  of  Her  Majesly's  <iovernnien( 
and  of  (he  I'nited  States  came  to};etlier  in  Washin^ftoii  with 
certain  facts  settled,  to  wit.  the  ille};ality  of  certain  sei/.m-es; 
:iiid  with  (he  record  of  (he  Paris  Tribunal,  and  its  ditlicnl- 
ties,  before  them,  (liey  determined  that  this  ('omniission 
shoiihl  sit  where  the  witnesses  could  bi'  called  before  the 
t'onimission,  put  iindi-r  «>a(h  by  (lie  t'omiuission,  seen  by  (he 
t'oniiiiission,  and  (ell  (heir  stories  under  <-ross-e.\aniina(ion 
before  (he  Commission.  Xow.  there  is  iiodiin;;  of  the  case 
exo'iit  wlia(  your  Honours  may  lind  from  the  testimony  of 
(liese  witnesses.       The  case  which  your   Honours   will   hear. 

3*^  so    far    as     (he     asses.«nient      of     daiiiafjes     is     concerni'd, 

will  be.  what  property  of  Uritish  siibjecis  has  been 
seized  under  (he  aiithoi-Ky  of  the  T'niled  States  (!ov- 
<  rnment,  seized  unlawfully,  accordint;  to  the  (ind- 
iiiKs  of  (lie  Talis  Tribunal.  Other  questicuis  reserved  by 
the  .\ward  of  the  Tribunal  are,  whether  the  pron<"r(y 
(laiined  to  have  been  seized,  and  claimed  (o  have  been  owned 
by  Hridsh  siibjecIs  was  in  fac(  (he  pioper(y  of  Itritish  sub 
jects,  or,  on  (he  other  hand,  was  the  property  of  Americans 
—or  lilizens  of  the  I'liited  States — who,  under  cover  of  the 
lliilish  lla;,^  defied  the  laws  of  their  country,  were  caujjlit  at 
it,  and  their  property  seized.  The  queslion  will  arise  as 
lo  the  citizenship  of  (he  owners  of  some  of  these  vessels, 
riiat  (jueslion  is  to  be  disposed  of  by  the  Tribunal,  and  is 
expressly  reserved:  but.  as  to  the  main  ipiestion.  the  I'liiled 
States  (iovernment  is  as  iiuxioiis  as  Her  .Majesty's  Ciovern 
ment  can  be  (o  have  this  sum  fixed  that  we  shall  pay.  and 
fixed  as  e.Njiediliously  as  jMts.sible.  We  are  not  disputiii<;  the 
liabili'y.       The  liability  having;  been  fixed,  the  I'nited  States 

-a  <ioyeriiment   wants  to  pay  the  last  dollar  <.f    damajjes    for 

which  it  is  liable,  and  to  pay  it  as  so<m  as  (he  amount  can 
be  aure<'d  iipMii,  or  li.\ed  by  (his  Commi.ssicui.  \Ve  api»roacli 
(he  subject  with  the  same  desire  that  our  friends  approach 
it.  We  desire,  may  it  please  your  Honors,  to  know  which 
side  tells  the  truth,  that  is  all.  We  cannot  jiay  until  some- 
one shall  assure  us  the  amount  that  we  shall  jiay.  I'ntil 
that  time  we  must  depend  upon  this  Commission— this  Hifjii 
Commission— to  invesliy:ate  and  wcijili  the  testimonv  of  the 
witnesses,      and      the      counter  stateinents-the      testimony 

rjo  pro. Mid    con— and     «;ive     us    the     anioiint.       Whatever  that 

aiiioiinf  may  be.  the  tJoverneiiint  of  the  T'nited  States  will 
pay  cheerfully  and  jirompfly.  We  aiijiroach  the  subject, 
may  it  jilease  the  Hipih  Commission,  with  the  fairness  most 
conspiciKusly  shown  by  Her  Majesty's  (Soverument  on  its 
side  when  it  named  as  Her  Majesty's  Commissioner,  to  sit 
here  under  the  conveiiti(m  of  1S!»(!,'  the  learned  and  distiii- 
(.Miished  pcnlleinan  who  is  as  well  known  and  distinffuished 
on  our  side  of  the  line  as  in  the  Dominicm. 

Now.  let   us  see— and  this  is  of  the  utmost    importance: 


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tMM-auw  we  luiv«'  proiMin-d  our  niw  on  tho  hiippoHitlon  that 
voiir  IIiinorH  would  at  onn-  nc*-  that  the  RltHiiK  of  tlu'  ('oin- 
niiNHion  at  San  FranclHro  waH  nccosHary  to  uh.  TIu'  a<l«»p- 
tion  of  tlu'  |)lan  of  wparat*'  rIaiuiH  waw  f<»r  onl«*il.v  and  <'on- 
vcnit'nt  pnwfdun'.  Tlic  HUji>;«<Htion  of  tlic  hsirnt'd  counwl 
f(M'  tJi«>at  Ilritain  that  th«'.v  niinht  want  t«»  uw  houu'  t«'Hti 
iiionv  undtT  one  head  at  hoiuo  Hubscquont  stant'  «>f  tho  v»m\ 
we  at  «»n<"<'  aciH'dfd  to,  and  tin*  othrr  ruh'  whh  drafted  und«'r 
which  any  t«'Htiinon.v  pn'viou»ly  takt-n  could  ht-  used  under 
any  other  head;  and  unlcHH  ytiur  Honoura  are  prepartMl  to 
hold  that  you  will  hold  but  thi»  one  HeHsion,  and  that  weniuHt 
brlnjr  her«',  or  fail  to  have  our  proof.  witnewseH  who  will  not 
come  from  San  Francisco,  th«'n  thirt  rule  cannot  b«'  adopted. 
There  is  no  <lis])osition,  of  course,  and  I  do  not  think  that  my 
leaincd  friend  intended  t(»  impute  to  us  any  such  disposi- 
tion, to  take  any  unfair  advautap>  at  any  jMiint.  W«>  desire 
to  ]iroce<>d  in  the  most  orderly  and  most  exjH'ditious  way. 
Hut  we  must  insist  that  th«'  tlie<u'y  of  the  (Convention  as  to 
our  siMiuK  at  San  Francisco  shall  be  held  to,  and  if  held  to, 
we  cannot  ojien  our  case  on  this  claim  for  damafjes  ajjainst 
our  (iovernment.  or  the  assessment  of  damaj;;es,  until  our 
friends  have  closed  theirs. 

Tr(m.  Mr.  INters,  Q.  ('..,  (Counsel  for  Her  .Majesty: — May  it 
pleas*'  the  Commissioners.  I  entirely  a^ree  with  my  learned 
friend  as  to  the  manner  in  which  these  proceedinfjs  should  be 
approached.  I  must  say  that  I  feel  greatly  Kratitied  at  the 
way  in  which  he  has  expressed  himself  in  reference  to  the 
spirit  in  which  he  int(>nds  to  ap])roacli  the  coiv.ideration  of 
|}\is  case.  My  learned  friend  has  laid  d«)wii  certain  doc- 
trines in  relation  to  the  qu»'stions  that  are  before  this  Oom- 
mission.  With  those  (pi(>sti(ms  I,  at  jtresent,  have  nothin^r 
to  do,  and  I  will  content  myself  by  sayinj;  now,  that  I  differ 
from  him  in  regard  to  his  statements  on  certain  of  these 
points.  I  reft'r  i)articularly  to  his  references  to  the  ques- 
tion of  American  citizenship  and  the  question  of  American 
own(>rship.  Later  on,  it  is  probable  that  these  matters  may 
be  discussed  before  this  ('ommission,  but,  just  now,  I  have 
nothing  more  to  say  about  them,  than  simply  to  remark  that 
they  will  be  considered  in  due  time. 

At  tlu»  present  moment,  tlu'  question  before  us  is:  Should 
01'  should  not  each  case  be  consideri'd  sejiarately.  If  I  un- 
derstand correctly  the  substantial  objection  taken  by  my 
le;irned  friend  to  our  form  of  rule  is  this:  It  is  apparent, 
h(>  says,  that  it  is  intended  that  this  Commission  shall  sit  in 
San  Francisco;  and  he  adds  that  he  wishes  to  have  his  wit- 
nesses examined  viva  voce  and  subject  to  cross-examination. 
With  the  latter  statement  I  entirely  af!;re«\  Rut,  merely 
a  jtlance  at  the  Conventicm  will  shew  that  it  is  not  at  all  a 
matter  of  course  that  the  (!(mvention  shall  sit  in  San  Fran- 
cisco. We  may  sit  there,  or  we  may  not  sit  there.  Article 
'2  of  tli<>  ('onvention  reads  as  follows: — 

"The  Commission  shall  also  sit  at  San  Francisco,  Califoniia. 
as  well  as  N'icloria,  provid«>d  that  either  Commissioner  shall 
so  lequest.  if  he  shall  be  of  opini(m  that  the  interests  of  jus- 
tice shall  so  recpiire  for  reasons  to  be  recorded  on  the  min- 

WU'H." 

In  the  first  place,  therefore,  there  can  be  no  session  of  the 
Commission  at  San  Francisco  unless  one  of  the  Ccmimission 
ers — not  the  (Counsel,  but  one  of  the  C!ommission«>rs — r(  - 
quests  that  the  Commission  shall  sit  there.  It  therefore  ap- 
pears at  the  very  outset  that  whether  this  Commission  shall 
sit  at  San  Francisco  or  not,  does  not  depend  on  the  wish  of 
<'ounsel  on  either  side,  Imt  it  depends  entirely  upon  a  request 
for  such  sitting  lu^in^  made  by  one  of  the  (/ommissiimers, 
.•tnd  also,  it  ]>rovides  this,  "When  that  Commission«'r  shall  be 
«tf  opinion  that  the  interests  of  justice  shall  so  requiw  for 
reas<ms  to  be  recorded  on  the  minutes.'' 


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M.V  lfarn«'(l  frii>n<1  ntarts  out  with  what  Hoom«  to  mo  to  ho 
n  falhiry  wh<>n  ho  makt'H  it  appear  aH  a  inattcr  of  roiiri^t'  that 
tilt'  I'liitcd  StaloH  raNf,  or  a  f^rvat  part  of  it,  iH  Koin^  to  ho 
put  iu  at  S:iu  KratiriHto.  Kvt>n  whoii  wt*  roiuo  to  «-oiisi(l«>i' 
ih<-  <|Ui'stiou  of  wlu'tlici*  wo  an*  to  wit  at  Haii  Frau<iK«o  or 
not,  that  )ioiii(  in  not  at  all  tna't'rial.  Now,  I  nnk  the  t'oin- 
niisNionorH  to  conHidt'r  the  rule  whit-li  wo  propoHo.  Wo  «lo 
not  |iroposo  that  Tounsol  for  tho  I'nitiHl  8(ntoH  hIiuII  bo  oom- 
pt'llcd  to  hrinj:  tho  ovitionoo  which  thov  havo  in  San  Fran- 
cisco an<l  |»ut  It  in  horo  in  N'ictoria.  Tho  rulo  an  draftod  l»y 
UH  oxproHHiy  staloH — 

"4.  Ak  far  aH  practicaldo.  oacli  claim  shall  bo  proco<>do<I 
with  soparatol.v,  and  tho  ovidonco  thoroon  on  both  sidoi* 
cloHod,  boforo  tho  proccodin>;s  on  any  othor  clnint  aro  bojjnn; 
oxcojtt  such  ovidon<'o  as  may  bo  siH>cially  rosorvod  to  l»o  a«I- 
dncod  later  on  on  sfNcial  causo  shown." 

What  wo  ]iroposo  t>y  that  is,  that  if  my  loarnod  friend 
s(at<'s — and  wo  want  nothinff  mon-  than  a  statomont — that 
ho  hiis  such  and  such  ovi«lonco  to  jtroduco  in  Snn  Francisco, 
of  course  that  ovidonco  will  bo  rosorvod  to  bo  produced  lator 
on,  if  wo  should  n"  t<>  ^"n  Francisco.  It  is  just  tho  samo  with 
r.'>,'ard  to  tho  Hiitish  (.'ounsol.  Wo  may  hnvo  ovidonco  our- 
solvos  to  |»roduco  in  San  Francisco,  and  wo  novor  intended 
for  n  moment  that  the  othor  side  should  bo  com]H>llod  to 
brintr  their  witnesses  from  San  Frant-isco  and  "xamine  them 
•It  Victoria.  Tho  rule  which  w«'  propose  [trovides  against 
that,  and  wo  leave  it  simply  and  solely  in  tho  discretion  of 
the  (.'ommissioners.  If  oiflier  Commissioner  should  say  that 
either  i»ar(y  to  the  case  should  have  this  witness  or  that  wit- 
ness examined  in  San  Francisco,  all  tlu'  < 'ommlssionor  has  to 
do  Is  to  state,  that  in  his  opinion  the  interests  of  justice  r«'- 
<|ulre  thiit  tliat  «'vldenco  sliall  bo  taken  In  San  Frani'isco, 
and  conse(|uently  such  ovidonco  would  be  reserved  until  we 
Kot  to  that  city.  Tho  rub'  as  pntposed  by  us  will  in  no  way 
affect  the  rij;ht  of  my  learned  friend  to  i»roduce  evidence  iii 
San  Francisco,  nor  will  it  in  any  way  affect  his  rifi:ht  to  ex- 
amine and  cross-examine  witn<>sHes.  '  I  a^nH*  with  him  as 
to  tlio  almost  valuelossncss  of  ovidonco  niven  by  affidavit. 
Wo  do  not  propo.so  to  jjivo  evidence  under  affidavit,  except 
in  certain  cases  which  will  come  In-fon'  the  rommissionera 
for  consideration  when  it  is  tondtTod,  If  it  should  be  tendere<l. 
We  want  to  examine  tho  witnesses  lira  rocf  and  to  cross- 
examine  liis  witnesses  just  as  niiK'li  as  he  wants  to  cross 
f'xamino  ours.  1  cannot  at  all  see  that  tho  nile  which  mv 
leaniod  friend  proposes  will  make  things  any  better.  What 
object  can  there  bo  in  if  We  have  a  session  of  the  Tom- 
mission  sitting  in  Victoria  now.  Why  should  not  wo  on  our 
side,  and  lie  on  his  side.  ]m-(nIuco  in  every  case  ail  the  evi- 
dence we  may  liave  ready  in  that  case.  The  rule  as  proposed 
by  my  learned  friend  would  make  it  absolutely  necessary 
that  in  the  first  place  we  should  j;iv«'  all  our  evidence  and 
then  have  an  adjournment  to  San  Francisco.  Then  if  we 
had  rebuttal  evidence,  it  would  make  it  nocessarA-  for  us  to 
come  back  hero  and  have  another  session  at  Victoria.  That 
would  be  absolutely  necessary  under  tho  rulo  proposed  by 
my  loarnod  friend,  and  I  submit  to  the  f'oinmission  that  it 
would  bo  neifhor  advisable  nor  convenient.  And,  how  would 
tho  matter  further  work  under  tho  rule  proposed  bv  t^ounsel 
for  tho  I'nitod  States.  Suppose  that  wo  havo  witnesses  to 
I»roduce  in  San  Francisco,  which  is  quite  probable,  will  we 
have  to  fjot  all  that  evidence  in  before  he  pives  any  evidenc*' 
here  in  Victoria.  Take  another  case  which  mnv  very  likely 
arise.  Suppose  we  havo  a  witness  to  examine  here,  and  li 
witness  to  examine  in  San  Francisco.  According  to  the 
jirojiosal  of  my  loarnod  friend,  wo  must  take  our  evidence 
here,  po  down  to  San  Francisco  and  pet  our  evidence  there, 
and  then  come  back  here  in  order  to  enable  him  *o  produce 
the  evidence  which  ho  has  in  Victoria.       If  that  were  the 


nili>,  tlM*  CoiiiiiiiNHion  would  Im>  ilitiiiKiiiK  altiiiit  nil  tlw  liiiii* 
fi'oiii  oiif  ritv  to  lli«-  oIIkt.       11  )i|>|M'iii-H  to  lilt'  thai  tli*'  rule 
HUnp  Hied  l».v  Mr.  IHrkinsoii  would  ciiuhc  ii  ^rcal  dt-iil  of  iiii 
HIT*  MNurv  iiicoiivi'iiii'iHM'  to  tin-  roiiiiiiiHHioiHMH.  and  in  addi 
rioii  to  that,  I  wiv  that  it  would  not  |ila<-«-  tli«-  ItritiHh  riaini 
in  that  poNition  wliirli  it  oii^lit  to  he  |ila<<-d  in.       \V)>  litiv<> 
inanv  Hi-paratt'  cascM  ht'ic,  and  h.v  the  tcrnm  of  thin  ("onvcn 
lion  the V  ar<>  ti-catt'd  iin  Hi'imrati'  (iihcm,  and  thin  Trilinnal 
<<^^        liiiH  to  ti'nd  upon  thi-iii  m-paratclr.       TIiIh  4'oiiiniiHHion  {h  not 
aiilliori/.i>d,  iiM  ill  the  taHi-  of  tlii'  Oi-ni-va  Arbitration  to  find 
M  liiiiip  mini,  )>ut  Die  dut.v  of  tiiiH  Triliiinal,  aH  ]ioiiit<'d  out  in 
Idiiil;  and  wliiti-  in  the  "convoiition,  is,  tliat  upon  oarh  rano 
ii  H*'|iara1r  lindin}:  Iuih  to  l)«>  iiiad«-.       That   will  Im>  found  in 
Artith'  :{• 

"Till'  Haid  ('oniniiHHioncrs  kIuiII  dctcrniint'  tli(>  iialtility  of 
tin'  I'liitiMl  StatcH,  if  any,  in  rfspt'ct  of  oach  claim,  and  iiHHrHH 
the  amount  of  coiiipt'nsation,  if  any,  to  Im'  paid  on  an-oiint 
tlicrcof — 8o  far  at*  Hwy  Hliall  Im'  aiil*-  to  ngrvc  thcrctm." 
•?o  TlH'rcfon"  the  t'oiiimisNioncrs   will   we  that   thi'y  liavt"  to 

lind  a  scjmrat*'  judnmcnf  in  cacli  faw.      Ah  a  matter  of  fact, 
and  very  properly  ho.  all  tlu'  claimn  in  tliew  canen  have  been 
separately  drawn  iii»,  ho  tliat  a  Hopnrnte  record  of  each  cane 
can  be  made  Ity  the  ('ommissionePH  when  they  come  to  ^ive 
their  jndpnent.       Whilst  there  are  Home  caseB  in  which  for 
the  salce  «if  convenience  evidence  may  very  well  Iw  grouped 
tojietlier.  and  there  in  Home  evidence  w'hich  may  very  well  be 
applie<l  to  all  the  cason,  yet  there  are  many  caneH  that  are  en- 
tirely dilTerent  in  their  nature  the  one  from  the  other.     The 
•'"         <aMesthat  arose  jn  1S!)1  and  ISJl'J  are  entirely  and  abmdiitely 
ilistiiifiiiislu'd  from  the  cases  that  arose  in  1S.*<(».      They  are 
allo^retlier  separate  and  distinct,  and  each  case  stands  iij)on 
its  owM  basis.       Why  should  we  l»e  com|»elled  to  ;;ive  the  evi- 
dence ii]>|ilicable  to  all  tlu'se  cases  all  at  the  one  time        As 
a  mere  matter  of  convenience  and  regularity,  is  it  n(»t  bet- 
ter that  each  case  should  l)e  treated  as  the  i'onvention  itself 
treats  >t.  as  a  separate  and  distinct  case.       !f  that  is  done, 
and  il   is  what  we  jiropose,  we  will  be  able  t(>  make  a  c<uii 
Q         jdele  reccnd  in  each  case,  s(>paratini;  them  on*'  from  another. 
The  ruh'  allowing  the  evidence  (jiven  in  one  i-ase  to  Im*  re-, 
ceived  in  a  subse(|uent  case,  is  simply  for  the  sake  of  con- 
venience, in  order  to  save  tinu',  and  not  to  have  any  useh  ss 
repetition  of  evidence.  Outside  of  that,  it  appears  to  us  that 
it  would  be  only  ri}iht  that  we  should  take  case  No.  1,  fjive 
our  evidence  on  it  as  far  as  we  can.  and  then  that  the  other 
side  should  come  forward  and   ^ive  their  evidenc*'  '.n  refer- 
ence to  it.       At  the  very  outset  we  should  leara  the  one  from 
the  oilier,  what  the  case  on  each  side  is.       Hut  the  proi»<»si 
-Q         tion  of  my  learne*!  friend  is  that  we  should  put  all  our  cases 
and  Jill  our  evidence  forward  in  the  tirst  instance,  and  then 
that  they  sliouhl  brini;  up  all  their  evidence.       It  may  haii])en 
we  niiiy  discover,  that  at  the  end  of  all  this  loajj  evidence 
we  li-ive  only  been  wastiu};  lime  to  a  cj'riain  extent  in  pro- 
ducinv  evidence  (ui   certain  ]ioinls,  which,  when  the  I'nited 
Stales  <-omes  to  ojien  their  case,  may  turn  out  were  not  iioiiils 
in  dispute  at  all.      On  every  <;ronnd;  (Ui  the  <;round  of  savin;; 
of  lime,  on   the  ground  of  following  out  the     terms  of  the 
Convinlion,  on   the  {ground  of  convenience;  we  submit   that 
()0         these  cases  should  be  treated  as  far  as  ]»osHible  as  Kei)arate 
cases.       I  do  not  think  it  is  necessary  for  nie  to  make  any 
olh(  r  remarks  with   regard  to  this  rule.       As  a   matter    of 
f.icl,  as  I  slated  at  the  outset,  these  ruh's  are  submitted  by 
Counsel    merely    as    su^p-slions.       Their    d<'termination,    of 
course,  rests  entirely  with  your  lordships,  and   we  leave  it 
to  voii  to  decide. 

I  heartily  join  with  my  learned  friend,  Mr.  Dickinson,  in 
the  remarks  he  has  made  with  reference  to  the  composition 
of  this  Ili^h  Tribunal.  It  is  to  my  mind  a  matter  of  the 
very  K'*''i>t'''<t  satisfacti<Mi  tluit  we  have  here  an  ojiportunity 


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of  |ti'i-K<-iitiiiK  '""■  *'">"'  •"•f"i('  iiicii  wltoMC  ({rent  cxiM-iifiicf  «k 
iiMlp'HciiiiltlfH  UN  to  Hti.v  with  cri'laiiity.  tliiil  (lie  vuhv  will  Im> 
ilciiiliMl  iiri'onliiiK  to  till-  well  known  iirinriplcH  of  law.  iinil 
jiiHliri-  tiiitl  r<|iiitv. 

Mr.  IHikiiiHoii  of  (NiniiNi-l  for  the  I'nltiMl  HtatoH: — Vonr 
HtniofK,  I  wIhIi  to  Hay  a  few  wohIh  in  rcjily.  1  <lo  not  Min-ni 
to  luivi'  niaili'  niVHi'if  iloarly  iini)i>rHtood  to  ni,v  Icaiiwd 
fiii'iiil  in  Ntatin^;  my  olijfitionH  to  tlilH  rnl<>.  Of  loiirNi'.  I 
i|iiiti'  iiniliTHlanil  undi-r  tlii'  t<>rniH  of  tlw  ('onv«-ntion  that  a 
Hi-HHion  may  Ih*  convi-ni'd  at  San  FianciNro  at  thi'  r<>i|ui'Ht  of 
oni- of  tli<>  CommiHHioniTH.  I  Htatcil,  liowt'Vi-r.  that  tli<>  pro 
]iosition  waH  tii-Nt  maih-  by  lli-r  Maji'Hty'H  Oovi'rnnii'nt  to 
iuivi>  oni>  Ncssion  at  N'irtoria.  Iml  thr  ottlcial  nc^otiationH 
hIii-w  that  tlK*  roiinti'i-  Hn;;p-i4tion  wan  madi'  that  ti'Htimonv 
waH  m-ri'HHaiy  to  he  taken — and  a  larni'  ma»H  of  toHtimony — 
at  San  KianciKro.  whirh  wiih  not  ohtaimihit'  at  Victoria. 
I'lMin  that  Ix-in^  mail**  to  appcjir.  an  amendment  was  innert 
ed  in  the  <'onvention  providint;,  that  if  either  t'onimiHsioner 
should  lie  NatiHtied  of  it.  a  HexHioii  Hhonld  he  had  nt  San  Fran- 
risco.  Of  coarse  the  primary  object  of  the  session  at  Vic- 
toria was  to  enable  ller  Majesty's  <!overnm<'nt  to  verify  their 
claims  a;:ainst  the  I'liited  Stat<-s  (Sovernnient. 

Xow.  I  have  not  contendeil  at  tlie  ontset.  nor  at  any  true, 
tliat  Counsel  on  tlu'  other  si(h>  should  put  in  nil  their  claims 
at  once;  they  can  jnit  them  in  separately.  The  I'aris  Tri- 
bunal had  seen  enough  of  ex  jiarle  attidavits.  they  liad  seen 
enough  contlict  of  testimony,  to  establish  beyond  jienidvent- 
iire  liiat  it  was  necessary — a  necessity  recoftnized  in  the  ne 
pitiations  between  the  liit;h  < ontractint;  parties — that  <'om- 
niissioners  should  see  the  witnesses  and  li<>ar  their  testi- 
mony, and  hear  it  tested  by  cross  examination.  Wlu-re 
claims  are  so  interwoven  as  the  claims  ar«'  here,  where  llie 
amount  to  be  recovered  in  one  case  rests  upon  testimony 
almost  exactly  like  that  of  another  case,  it  will  not  do  for  the 
I'nited  States  tiovernment  to  ffive  notice  at  once  of  its  de- 
fence, or  of  its  attack  upon  the  credibility  of  the  witnesses 
]iroduced  to  day  in  one  case  and  who  may  be  produied  to- 
morrow in  another  case.  I  say  this  because  it  ap]H'ars  from 
the  terms  of  the  ronventioii  itself,  and  from  the  record  of 
Uie  Paris  Tribunal,  that  there  were  doubts  about  the  ti-sti- 
niony  of  some  of  the  witnessi  s.  We  are  meeting;  here  in  the 
sealin;;  country  the  testimony  of  hostile  witnesses,  and  it 
is  assumed  r>n  the  jiart  of  tlie  fnited  States,  and  it  may  be 
fairly  asHiimid  from  the  record  of  the  I'aris  Tribunal,  that 
the  testimony  in  support  of  these  claims  was  not  reliable. 
It  may  be  assumed,  then,  that  the  I'nited  States  (iovern- 
ment  will  claim,  as  it  did  claim  before  the  I'aris  Tribunal, 
and  as  it  does  claim  on  this  record  il  do  not  know  that  your 
Honors  have  seen  it  \vi),  that  at  least  some  of  these  claims 
are  sup]iorted  by  evidence  that  is  unworthy  of  credit.  I  do 
not  wish  to  be  invidious  by  sin^linu:  ont  any  of  them  for 
special  reference.  Xow,  the  t'onventiim  assumes  that  that 
may  be  .so,  and  your  Honors  are  here  to  see  the  witnesses, 
t<.  listen  to  their  oral  examination  and  their  cioss-examina 
lion.  It  will  not  do  with  that  class  of  witnesses, 
for  the  Counsel  for  the  I'nited  States  (Sovernment  to  an 
noiince  beforehand  what  its  attack  npcm  the  credibilitv  of  a 
particular  witness  will  be.  It  appears  frivm  the  evidence 
before  the  I'aris  Tribunal  that  the  same  ilass  of  witnessi's 
will  api»ear  in  ditt'erent  cases,  and  in  some  instances  the  same 
individual  will  apjiear  as  a  witness  in  ditt'erent  cases.  Sup 
pose,  for  instance,  in  the  <ase  of  i\w  "Carolena"  we  attack  a 
witness  and  close  our  line  of  attack  in  the  examination,  then, 
if  this  rule  suf;j;ested  by  my  learned  friend  l/e  adopted,  that 
witness  is  prepared  for  it  in  the  next  case  in  which  he  ap- 
pears. A  pain  is  it  possible  that  this  Commission  will  c<mi- 
pel  ns  to  state  what   testimimy  we  want  to  attack,  and  so 


10 


ft 


N 


1 .1 


iiotif.v  in  iulvaii<-«>  iIiIh  (Iiihh  of  wltiu'smH  of  our  inirpoHO.  I 
<lo  not  think  ho.  Th«>  tlx'or.v  i»f  tlif  ('nnvcntion  \h  (tint  tlH> 
<-n>ilil)ilit,v  of  tlit'Hc  wilnt'NHt'H  Hliiiil  l)f  tfHtf(i  DM  it  iH  onliniir- 
il.v  U'hU'A  in  t'ourtM  of  Itiw.  Tiirrc  iH  no  «linirnllv  in  my 
i'armMl  frifntln,  n'tin-HcntinK  ll<>i-  MiijrHlv.  pnttinK  in  tln'ir 
«>nttr«' raw.  for  it  in  a  mere  aHMCHnnn-nt  of  <laniat;<'H  in  tlw  or- 
ilinar.v  wa.v.  It  in  trn«>  tliat  tin*  Trilainal  innnt  tln<l  in  «'arli 
4-aH«',  but  after  all,  it  in  on<>  claim  to  hv  made  np  of  th<'  ap- 
praiHi>m«'nt  of  tin*  (lilTt'n'nt  itemn  iniln<l*>d.      t'rrtainly  tlii> 

10  4'onnH«>l  for  llcr  Maj«'Hty'H  (iov«>rnm*-nt  mnnt  Itc  r«'a«ly  at  thiH 
tim«>  to  v«>rif,v  tht'ir  «-laimH.  ('crtainly  tli*>  l<>arn<>d  ConnHol, 
wli<»in  i  am  ^lad  to  wf  Iuih  JiiNt  l)<>*>n  added  to  tin*  diHtin- 
KulHlml  t'onnni'l  n-pn-Ht-ntin^  ili>r  Majt-Hty,  and  wlio  waH  tli** 
aK«'nt  of  Iler  Majesty'H  t>ov«M'nm<-nl  before  the  I'ariw  Til- 
Itnnal; — and  to  whoHe  etTorlx  larjjeiy  the  rnitnl  HtateH  tiov- 
ernnient  eanie  out  a  loHer — eertainly  Ite  In  in  a  jioHition  to 
linow — if  any  man  <m  the  fare  of  the  eartii  Ih  in  a  position 
t<»  know,  what  the  ehiHM  of  teHlimony  Ih  tliat  Hhonid  Ite  pro- 
dneed,  and   who  the  individualH  are  to   Ite  produced  before 

20  thiH  Tribunal  In  nnpport  «tf  the  ciainiH  of  Iler  MajeHty'n  (lov- 
ernment.  There  in  notliinu  u'ifair  in  directintr  the  Itritinh 
<iovernment,  (having  thene  facilit'cH,  and  thcne  ('(tunnel  who 
Herved  ltefoi*e  the  Parin  Tribunali  to  tell  uh  what  their  claim 
Ih  and  let  uh  meet  it.  We  nubmit  that  they  munt  put  in 
their  claim  by  the  oral  tentinuiny  of  their  witneHHes  ho  far  an 
may  be;  teniinutny  that  nniy  be  cctiinidered  authentic  and 
proper  nnder  the  t'ttnvention.  Then  we  nhould  be  permitt«'d 
to  meet  it  in  our  own  way  by  equally  authentic  and  proper 
teHtinmny,  nttackiuf;  lar};ely,  bear  in  mind,  thene  witneHHCH 

3°      Riimmoned  from  the  H«»iil  «"ountry. 

The  ('onimisHioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'niled  Staten: — Mr, 
DickinHon,  Ih  there  any  ditticulty  to  be  met  by  thiH  rule  pnt- 
poHcd  by  you  except  the  queHtion  of  the  evidence  at  Kan 
PranciHco? 

Mr.  I>i«-kinHon: — Y«'h,  your  H(tnour.  We  do  not  denire  to 
proceed  with  our  case  until  they  net  their  clainiH  forth. 

The  t'ommiHsioner  on  the  part  (tf    the     I'nited     Staten: — 
4°      Would  you  claim  that  if  the  evidence  wan  Iteinjj;  taken  on  be- 
half of  the  Hcho(tner  "Carolena."  f(tr  inntancc,  you  would  use 
the  evidence  taken  in  the  cane  (tf  the  "Wanderer"  to  preju- 
dice the  claim  <tf  the  Hclnutner  '("arolena"'" 

Mr.  IMckiuHon: — N«t,  sir,  I  d(t  n(tt  think  it  Hlxtuld  b«>  ho 
UHed,  but  the  same  witnenn  mi);ht  bt>  called  to  Huntain  it. 

The  ('«mimiHHi(tner  on  the  part  (tf  the  I'nited  Staten: — Then 
what  advantap*  ih  there  in  the  ]tr(t]toHiti(tn  that  th(>  Hritinh 
(iovernment  nhould  tirnt  put  in  all  their  evidence  (tn  all  the 
^        clainiB? 

Mr.  r>ickinH(tn: — May  it  please  your  Tlonor,  the  t«>stimony 
is  larjjelv  of  th(>  sjune  clasn  of  men,  who  are  in  very  intimate 
nns(tciati(m,  and  if  we  disclone  our  line  of  defence  (tr  attack 
nnon  the  witness  in  one  ca«e,  it  will  be  known  and  will  be 
prepar(>d  for  by  this  claHH  of  witneHH(>n  in  all  the  HubHe()U(>nt 
cases.  That  in  the  point  I  have  b«H'n  endeavoring  to  make. 
The  whole  theory  (tf  the  f'onvention  and  (tf  the  conntitutWtn 
of  thin  Tribunal  in  t(»  permit  us  to  Holve  our  d(tubt  as  to  the 
^      credibilitv  of  the  witnesses. 


The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  T'nit(>d  Htates; — l>o 
yen  not  think  you  could  niann^e  that  under  the  rnl.»  "t  wli.di 
y..u  have  ufrreed  upon,  that  the  testimony  may  be  transferred 
fr«tm  one  case  to  the  other? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — N«tt  at  all.  Rujtpose  we  examirii'  as  to 
the  case  of  the  "Carolena."  how  do  we  know  ♦^hat  our  crosn- 
examinntion  ought  to  be  the  same  for  some  (tther    case  In 


II 


wliUli  tilt'  HtiiiM'  witiifHH  inii.v  III'  ciiINmI.  TIk'.v  inii.v  tnui*if«>r 
tlit'ir (lini't  tcHlinion.v  iiixl  w«>  would  not  liiivt>  <'nms4>xaiiiin(>tl 
liim  iiH  to  IiIm  I'i'liitioii  to  tlif  otlu-r  v<-Hm'l  wHIi  rrpirti  to 
wliirli  lif  wiiM  cxiiiiiiiM'il.  Til*'  niHi>  Ih  full  of  ilininillifH  if 
Wf  do  not  liiivf  rounm-l  foi-  ll*>r  .MaJ«'H)y  t-loHi'  tht'lr  tcHli- 
nion.v,  tlifir  voriliriition  and  aHHi'HHUwnt  of  daiini(;«>H  lM-f(»rt> 
\\r  pt  into  our  di'fcnrc.  Tiny  may  trauHfi'i'  the  t»'nliinony 
of  a  witnt'NH  who  IniH  Ihmmi  <>xaniin<'d  aH  to  on<>  riaini,  iind 
UMc  It  latrr  on  for  anotlnT  claini,  hut  llic  croHM examination 
may  not  rov«'r  what  has  conu*  out  in  a  Hul)H«><|Ufnt  (*aM(>. 
Mr.  I'l'tcrH! — Y»»u  have  aK>'<'«'d  to  that,  though. 

Mr.  Dirl^inNOM' — I  a^^l■<'d  to  tlii-M*  rnh-H  without  ruh>  4.  I 
took  nilt>  4  thon.  and  I  take  it  now,  to  Im-  radically  wrtm^. 

The  ('omniiHHltmer  on  the  part  of  the  Tnlted  Stateo; — If 
th<>ii>  w*'r«*  no  rnh'H  at  all.  wouhl  not  the  t'ommiHHion.  aw  a 
matter  of  courHc.  take  up  tlicHe  rlainiH  one  Ity  one?  Would 
not  that  Ih>  the  ordinary  rourH<>  of  a  tribunal  of  JuHtiee? 

^fr.  DickinNon: — We  could  only  put  in  our  caw*  here  In 
|il(M-enieal. 

The  (NunmiHshmer  on  the  part  of  the  Tnitcnl  States: — Re- 
servinj;.  of  eourHe,  the  matter  of  teHtimony  in  Kan  Franciweo. 

Mr.  DiekiuHon: — If  your  Honour  mad«'  that  rule,  we  could 
reHerve  all  our  teHtimony  for  Han  FranciMco. 

The  CommiHMioer  on  the  part  of  the  United  StateH:— That 
would  not  follow  at  all.  ItecauHe  th«'  proceedin^H  w(Hild  he 
30     conducted  in  pood  faith. 

Mr  IMckiuHon:— If  it  would  not  folhtw.  we  would  be  ob- 
Ii>r«'d  to  dlHpense  with  the  teHtimony  we  hav«'  in  Han  Fran- 
oIm'q. 

The  CommiHHioner  on  the  part  of  tlie  Fnitcd  Htates:— I  do 
not  think  that  would  follow  either. 

-Mr.  Dickinson — I  ask  your  IIonorR  to  consider  this  (pies- 
tiou.  as  we  deem  it  a  nuilter  of  very  fjreat  im|iortance. 

The  ('omniissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  Htates:— If 
t'ounsel  on  either  nide  would  UHHiire  the  Commissioners  that 
there  is  evidence  of  imiiortance  to  be  taken  .Tt  Han  Francisco. 
1  do  not  believe  either  commissioner  would  ask  to  liave  tlie 
evidence  disclosed.  I  nu>rely  ask  these  questions  to  g<>t  at 
a  practical  result.  I  would  like  to  ask  a  .juesticm  about 
one  or  two  other  of  these  rules.  One  of  these  rules  !»rovtd<  s 
f«)r  the  siirninK  of  the  protocol  by  the  ("(unmissioners  and 
the  Secretary.  Ho  far  as  my  «'xamination  into  the  pnidice 
50  goes,  the  protocols  have  been  siftned  by  the  agents  or  tlie 
Counsel  of  the  two  fjovernnients. 

Mr.  IMckinson:— I  think  that  at  the  Paris  Tribunal  <mlv 
(he  agents  signed. 

Sir  Ilibbert  Tapper:— .\t  Paris  the  agents  of  the  two  gov- 
ernments and  the  President  of  the  Tribunal  signed. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  jiart  of  the  rnite<l  Htates:-  Ho 
that  each  govemment   was  representt'd   on   the  protocol   at 
60     every  point. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majestv:— ITave  vou 
considered  what  time  would  be  recpiirinl  for  the  canning  out 
of  the  second  and  third  rules? 

Mr.  Peters:— We  are  pnpared  to  flh  the  statement  of 
claims  almost  immediately.  exce|>t  with  regard  to  the  case 
of  the  the  "Wanderer."  in  wliich  case  there  will  be  sonie  little 
d<-lay.  It  will  all  deju-nd  on  what  time  niv  learned  friend 
will  require  to  tile  his  replies. 


40 


lO 


Mr.  IMrkiiiKitii:  -It   would  lir  liii|iimMiblc  or  iim  to  t«>ll  tliiit 
iiiilil  w*'  Hi'f  IIm-  tliiliiiM. 

Tlif  t'oiiiiniHHioiHr  on  tin-  |>iirl  of  llrr  Miiji'hIv:  -I  iiiii  ri> 
i|ii»'Mtt(l  liv  .hulp-  I'litiiiim   to  iiHk   wliiit    Ik  tin-  iif<cHHilv  of 
:liiit  pitrt  of  tin-  riilr  wliitli  |irovi<lfH  for  ii  rcpl.v  lo  tli*'  iin 
Hwcr. 

Mr.  IN'li-rM:— Tliiil  Ik  oiiIv  "if  iiccisHiirv."  Mv  Iciinu'tl  friciul 
iit;iv  iiiiHwcr   HoiMi'wIiiit    K|M't'iiillv   Willi    rcpirtl   to   llic  tliiiin 

of   OWIMTHlli|l    of    KOlnc    of    tllf    VCHHI'Ih    Ii.v      AllllTltim      tiliZVIIH. 

It  ini;:lit  Ih-  foiiml  nnt'HHiirv  to  nnswi-r  to  llijil. 

Tllf  <'oininiMHioii)i'N  tlicn  iiiljoiiriii-*l  until   10  o'rioik  of  llu- 
nioriiin<;  of  Tiifsdiiv.  Ilir  -Mlli  diiv  of  Novriiilicr. 


.^o 


20        OommiBBloners  under  the  Convention  of  February  8,  1896,   betw.ei 
Great  Britain  and  the  United  States  of  America- 
Chambers  of  the  Legislative  Assembly, 

At  Victoria,  November  24, 1896. 

.\l  leu  o'clock  in  tin-  forcuoiMi  tin-  ("oniniiKHionciH  took 
tlirlr  Kisils. 

Ttit  r<  ii|i(Mi  till"  ("oninnHMioncr  on  llio  jmrt  of  llrr  Hriliiniiic 
Miijcstv  siii<l:"Mr.  HickinMon.  I  HU|t|ioso  v<mi  liiivi-  Imtii  fur 
niHli-'d  Willi  lopicH  of  tile  ciiw  in  n-HpiTt  to  sonic  of  tin- 
( liiiiitH. 

Mr.  lUckinson:— Only   tlvc 

TIm'  ('oir.niissiom'r  on  llir  it  of  Ili-r  Majt-wly ;— .\r»'  .roii 
iildf  lo  say  iihoiil  tin-  linn-  1  1  would  Im-  ncfdcil  Ity  y(Mi  to 
iiiiiki-  your  .inswcrs? 

Mr  Uitkinsoii:— .\s  lo  lliiit,  we  iiii-  ill  tlu'  sunn'  itosition 
we  well'  ill  llu'  linio  of  till-  udjournnu'nt  yostcrdiiy.  II  will 
ho  iifccssurv  for  us  lo  sec  iill  tin-  cluiiiiH.  \Vc  discovorcd 
40  tin  llic  insiMclion  of  Itiil  llvo  out  of  tlio  lurp-  nunilior  Hint 
the  nuliiro  of  our  idcudiiijis  must  lie  dilTiicut  as  to  dilTt-ront 
rjis«'S. 

Till'  t'luiiniissioncr  on  tli<'  pari  of  ilor  M.ijfsty :— Arc  yon 
iildc  to  make  any  su<i};«'stion  us  to  llic  lime  thai  you  would 
Ihink  i'(  asoiiahic? 

Mr.  niikinson:— I  should  think,  if  all  the  ilninis  are  tiled 
•  arly  ttiday.  we  can  iletcrniinc  before  the  close  of  the  day 
iilioiit  wliai   time  wc  would   leiiuirc. 

The  rominissidner  on  the  |tart  of  Her  Majesty:— Mr. 
Pel  (IS,  have  you  your  claims  ready? 

Mr.  Peters:— As  a  niallir  of  fad.  allhoiifrh  Mr.  lUckinson 
did  not  know  when  he  came  here,  we  Invc  alrendy  actually 
delivered  11  claims,  .■>  last  nitiht,  and  ».  this  uiornin}.'.  The 
claims.  I  feel  salislicd,  will  all  he  in  the  hamlK  of  t'ounscl 
opposite  today.  At  all  events,  if  all  are  not  lllcd,  there  will 
he  only  one  or  two  of  the  last  ones  reiiiainiii};,  and  which  in 
60  the  natural  course  of  events  cannot  lie  reached  for  some  con- 

viderahle  time  yet.      They  are  all  in  the  hands  of  the  printer 
and  the  in-oofs  have  been   revised. 

The  (•(imniissioner  on  the  part  of  the  riiiled  States: — 
What  is  the  status  of  the  "Wanderer"  claim? 

Mr.  Teleis: — I  shall  have  lo  ask  the  ("oiirt  to  allow  me  a 
few  days  before  I  juit  in  that  claim.  The  owner  will  not 
be  here  for  iieihajis  ;i  wwk,  but  it  is  one  of  the  very  last 
cast's. 


II'  1 


If 


tj 

Tin- r iiilMMloiicr  oil  tin-  imil  of  till'  Initnl  Sintrx: -Will 

voii,  Mr.  I»ii'liiii>'<iii,  ii'i|iiiri'  til  Hi'f  llif  <  liiiiii  on  Ixluiir  of  lliu 
"Waiiili'ii  r"  iHloir  .von  aii-  iililc  to  (Iflciiiiiiic  Ay>  to  the  tiiiif 
\oii  will  iifcd  for  rrplv? 

Mr.  IHckiiiHoii;— No,  .voiir  lloiioiir.  If  llHMf  Ih  oiiIv  oim' 
iliiiiii  willilit  l<l.  \Vf  run  iiiiikf  up  our  iiiiiitlH  iih  to  tlir  kiml 

of    |ll<>jl*lillK    llcrt'HKiirV    III     r<'H|l)-('t     to    tllf    olllCIH. 

The  foiiiMilMHioiicr  on  lln-  purl  of  tlic  I'liilid  SIjiIch:— You 
10    •on  proliiilil.v  inforin  iih  tomorrow  morning;  how  niiicli  tiiiio 
will  ri'i|iiirc. 

Mr.  MirkiiiHoii: — No  iloiihl.  If  we  IiihI  lin<i  t'lr  iltiiiiiH, 
we  would  have  Ix-i-ii  alih*  to  iiiforni  viMir  llonoiirH  IIiIn  niorn- 
iiiH. 

Till- t'oiiinilNHioni-r  on  tin*  part  of  I  lor  .Majt'Hiv: — Of  roiirso, 
MO  iloiiltl,  llif  power  to  •■.\lriiil  III)'  time  Would  Im-  lllii'rall.v 
t'.xrrriMi-d.  All  that  I  wan  Hcckiii};  to  p't  wuh  hoiim'  p-ncral 
id<  a  aN  to  what  voii  would  Ihiiik  rfUNonalih',  apart  from  aii.v 
io  I x'cpiional  tircuiUNlaiirc  that  ini^lit  lead  to  an  application 
for  <-.\t('iiHion  of  tinic. 

.Mr.  IHi-kiiiHoii: — I  had  hopod,  vour  ll<ui<iur,  that  w<>  would 
lie  aide  to  pi-fpar*'  mir  plcadin>;N  within  forlvfi^ht  hours  and 
]<rliit  them  wrv  i|uirkl.\.  I  laid  hoped  that,  without  HeeiiiK 
llir  Hlali'inent  of  the  t'laims  <ui  the  tdlier  side. 

Mr.  I'etei'H: — It  would  he  well  if  I  were  now  to  present 
liM-mall.v  to  the  t'ouiinission  the  II   claiuis  we  have  ready. 


30 


40 


(The  II  ehiinis  referred  to  were  tiled  ami  pimed  in  the 
hands  of  the  Keeretaiy.) 

The  t'ommissioner  on  the  part  of  Iler  Majesty: — We  hope 
that  at  :{  o'clock  this  alernooii  we  may  he  aide  to  aniioiincc 
the  rules.  .hidp'  I'nlnam  and  myself  feel  how  much  we 
are  indehled  to  the  Counsel  for  the  assistance  they  have 
p;iven  us  in  the  preparation  of  the  rules,  and  which  otherwise 
would  have  invtdved  c(uisideialile  dillicnlty. 

Mr.  I'eters: — In  regard  to  rules  It!  ami  17,  which  wen' 
Hli<;htly  discussed  yesterday  hef(U-e  the  triltunal,  since  that 
time  I  have  drafted  them  in  a  maniu'r  which  I  think  meets 
the  aiiproviil  of  t'ounsel  on  the  other  side,  and  I  have  also 
incorptuated  the  sujfp'stion  iiiaih'  by  one  of  the  (Nuiiniissiiui 
CIS  yesterday.       J  he};  to  hand  I  hem  in. 

Thet'omniissionerN  then  took  a  recess  until  :{  o'clock  in  the 
aftei'Moon 


50 


6j 


And  at  .'{  o'clock  in  the  afternoon  of  this  day  the  Com- 
inissioners  risunied  their  sittiiiK- 

The  ('(unniissioiier  <ui  the  part  of  the  Inited  States;— I  am 
re<|uested  hy  my  associate  to  make  the  following'  statement 
on  hehalf  of  the  ('omui<ss<onei'^<. 

In  regard  to  rules  li  and  7,  the  Conimissiiuiers  have  adopted 
them  mainly  lecause  presented  to  them  hy  counsel:  hut 
their  adoption  's  tentative,  and  there  is  very  ureal  prohahil 
ity  I  hit,  when  the  ('<auiuissioiiers  apprehend  the  proci-ed 
iiiffs  better  than  they  do  now,  they  may  he  chan};<d. 

With  reference  to  rule  I  as  redrafted,  the  t  "oiiimissi<Miers 
are  not  at  all  impressed  with  the  necessity  of  it;  hut,  in  or- 
der to  save  Ihe  rifjhts  of  all  parties  in  aiiv  continp'ncv.  it 
scdiied  well  to  h-ave  it  in  its  present  form,  which  fidhlws 
pari  passu  the  provisions  of  Ihe  «"<mvention  conferring;  pow- 
ers, with  i«'fereiice  to  s«-ssi(Mis  at  San  Francisco.  The  ('(un- 
niissioners  believe  that,  in  connection  with  rule  5,  it  will  pro- 


14 


tt'<'t  all  HiiltHtantial  linlitH  wliii-h  woro  mMi^lit  t«t  1«>  fovorwl 
l»,v  the  ("ouum'l  f»»i"  tlic  I'liilt'd  Stati'H  in  the  draff  of  nih'  4 
Hiilnnittfd  bv  tlu'in; — at  least,  tlu'  rule  aw  adopted  fjoes  as 
far  aH  the  ('oiniiiiNaioiiers  de»>iii  tlieinselves  able  to  (^o  in  view 
of  (he  fundamental  rales  noverninn  proeeedinps  in  determin- 
ation of  contested  matters. 

Tlie  t'onimissioners  desire  to  obs«'rve  that  they  liave  no 
dotibt  that  tlie  counsel  on  eitlier  side  will  exhaust  all  the 
evidence  available  at  Victoria  with  reference  to  every  claim, 
,Q  except  such  as  nia.v  be  strictly  in  lebuttal.  before  the  det«'r- 
minalion  of  any  application  for  av>  adjournment  to  San 
Francisco;  and  1  feel  justified  in  addiii};  tluit.  in  the  deter- 
mination of  any  such  application,  (he  < Commissioners  will  un- 
doubtedly rely  upon  the  expressed  judgment  of  the  counsel 
making  the  application  as  to  its  desirability. 

It  is  possible  that  a  careful  (>\amination  of    rule    :{    may 
dis<lose  an   inconsistency.        If  counsel   find    such,   they  an' 
requested  to  ni)tify  the  Commissioners  before  the  rules  are 
si»read  on  the  jtrofocol. 
20  Kule  S,  as  piesented  to  (he  ("omniissiontrs,  seems  unneces- 

sary. 

The  Commissioners  have  added  t(t  the  last  rule  a  prcnision 
for  amendments  and  enlarjiinfi  times. 

With  the  above  exceptions,  we  b«'li»'ve  the  rules  as  passed 
down  are  the  same  as  submitted  by  counsel. 

I  will  add  that  the  Commissioners  do  not  deem  it  neces- 
sary to  have  a  separate  notice  t)ook.  The  Commissioners 
clesire  to  }j;et  on  with  as  few  b(»oks  as  possible,  and  all  notices 
^O  will  iio  upon  the  docket.  The  time  as  naiiu'd  in  the  rules  for 
doinji  various  thiufis  is  short,  but  the  Conimissi<tners  have 
rrstr\eil  (he  rif.'ht  to  enlarjie  (he  time,  and  it  is  not  intended 
(o  embarrass  Counsel  in  any  way  at  all.  My  associate  de- 
sires me  to  ask  Counsel  whether  any  further  matter  is  to  bo 
presented  to  the  Commissioners. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — The  Counsel  of  the  Hritish  Government 
and  ourselves  have  been  consideriufj  the  constru<-tion  of  the 
Convt'ntion  as  to  the  necessity  of  holding  a  session  here,  or 

^o  at  San  Francisco  to  received  printed  and  oral  arguments. 
If  tluTe  is  any  doubt  in  the  minds  of  the  Commissionere  as 
to  their  power  to  hold  a  session  to  rec-.'ive  (he  arguments, 
we  are  considering  whether  it  might  not  be  w«'ll  for  us,  as 
Counsel  for  oui-  respective  governments  to  suggest  that 
there  be  an  interchange  of  diplomatic  notes  «onstruii)g  tlip 
<'onvention  ho  as  to  jiermit  the  Commissiont'rs  to  meet  at, 
say  Mcmtreal,  for  examjile,  or  some  place  in  the  Fast  for  the 
purpose  solely  of  receiving  arguments  of  Counsel,  and  of 
rendering  (he  Award.      We  have  not  come  to  any  conclusion 

50  .ve(,  but  we  are  discussing  it  informally,  and  I  desire,  at  the 
suggestion  of  the  leained  Counsel  on  the  other  side,  to  i)ut  it 
als<»  before  the  minds  of  the  Commissioners  for  consideration. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — I 
understood  (hat  Counsel  were  consid«'raing  the  matter,  and 
of  course  we  shall  be  very  glad  to  get  tiieir  views  about  it. 
In  filling  in  these  blanks,  we  thought  we  would,  for  flu; 
present,  be  on  flu'  safe  side  by  stilting  (hat  the  rules  were 
tentative.  We  thereore  filled  in  the  blanks  as  though  every- 
60  thing  was  to  be  completed  here,  making  the  ])eriods  very 
short  and  ten(a(ive  as  we  have  slated.  My  associate  desires 
me  to  say,  and  I  fully  concur  in  it,  that  there  certainly  would 
lu'  no  objection  to  obtaining  such  construction  of  the  Treaty. 
Afier  a  brief  consulfatiim  between  .ludge  King  and  myself, 
we  do  not  feel  that  we  are  entirely  clear  about  (he  matter, 
and  of  course  all  doubt  should  be  avoided.  I  can  only  r»'p«>at 
(hat  we  would  be  exd'emely  obliged  to  Counsel  for  a  sugges- 
tion iu  that  direction,  and  we  shall  be  very  glad  to  confer 


.ij 


10 


20 


30 


40 


IS 

nltoiit  it  infoiiiiallv  at  any  time,  ua  an  infonual  ronffronce 
\v/»iild  be  {MM-hapH  nuM-c  (onvcnicnt  tlian  in  open  HeMxion. 

Mr.  Peters : — I  now  present  to  tiie  roinniiHHionerH,  forin- 
all.v,  clainiH  Xo.  l:,'  to  No.  11!.  which  I  have  already  seiTed 
upon  Counsel  on  the  otiier  sid"  and  tih-d. 

The  Coiiiniissioni-r  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — What  is 
tli«'  entire  number  of  tlie  ehiims? 

Mr.  I'eters: — The  entire  number  is  '2(\.  Of  these  1I5  are 
aetually  in  tlie  itands  of  tlie  printer,  and  my  b'arned  friend 
opposite  sluill  liave  them  t<»-ni}flit.  The  "Wanderer"  elaim 
stands  in  the  jtosition  as  already  stated. 

The  <'<mimissioner  on  the  part  of  the  Inited  States: — The 
rommissioners  <h>em  it  better  to  adjourn  from  day  to  day 
in  view  of  possible  eontin>;en(  ies.  The  Counsel  need  not  at- 
tend unless  they  have  something  to  briujr  before  ns. 

Mr.  Dickinson ; — The  Counsel  for  the  I'nited     States     are 
quite  cuntident    they   would   be  able  to  file  their  replies  on 
Friday  mornintj  but  for  the  interposition  of  the  Thanks<;;!v 
injj  holiday,  which  by  a  happy  coincidence  is  held  <ui  both, 
sides  of  the  line  on  the  same  day  this  year. 

Mr.  Teters: — In  order  to  },'et  the  pleas  ccmipleted  by  Satur- 
day, if  we  have  any  special  reply,  I  sufifiest  that  we  be  al 
lowed  to  jMit  it  in  in  writing,  and  jirint  it  afterwards. 

Mr.  l>ickins(m: — Counsel  for  the  I'nited  Stales  have  no 
objection  to  that.  There  will  be  hardly  any  reason  for  reply, 
we  think,  excej)!  in  rejjard  t<t  one  or  two  matters  in  which  w« 
may  ask  to  dismiss  the  claims  that  are  jtresented. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  Cnited  States:— The 
Commis.sioners  would  be  ulad  to  hear  the  judjrment  of  Coun- 
sel with  re},'ar(l  to  the  rules  in  their  i)resent  form.  The 
Commissioners  may  have  made  some  mistake,  and  wc  do  not 
reji.ird  the  rules  laid  down  by  any  means  at  aU  as  laws  of  the 
Medes  and  Persians. 

The  sessi«»n  then  adjourned  until  tomorrow  morning  at 
half-past  ten  o'clock. 


Oommissioners  under  the  Convention  of  February  8,  1896,  between 
Great  Britain  and  the  United  States  of  America. 

Chambers  of  the  legislative  Assembly, 

At  Victoria,  November,  25,  1896. 

50  At  U)M  o'clock  in  the  foren(>on    the   Commissioners   took 

their  sj'ats. 

The  Commissioners  authorized  the  Secretary  to  rec«'ive 
and  tile  claims,  with  the  same  etTect  as  though  filed  befoi-e 
the  Commissioners  when  in  open  session. 

At  10:40  a.m.  the  ('ommissioners  adjourned  to  again  con- 
vene at  10:;{0  a.m.,  Friday.  November  27,  1H!»6. 


60 


Cjmmissioners  under  the  Canvantion  of  February  8,  1898,  Between 
Great  Britain  and  the  United  States  of  America 

Chambers  of  the  Legislative  Assembly, 

At  Victoria,  November  27,  1893. 

.\t  half  past  ten  o'clock  in  the  forenoon  the  Cominissioners 
took  their  seats. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty:— Gentle ■ 


lO 


20 


40 


16 


t(»  tlx'  romiiiissioiuTM  this 
-I  simidy  wish  to  inakt'  a  formal  motion. 


iiu'ii,  is  thoiT  an.vtliiun  to  infm-nt 
uioriiiii^? 

Mr.  Petirs: 

Till'  CominissitmiT  on     the    jmi't    of    Hci-    Majesty:— Tlu' 
learned  ("ounMei  cm  tlie  other  side  are  not  jnesent. 

I  siinjilv  wish  to  make  in 
otlier  (lav   witli   regard   to 


Mr.  IV'ters: — I  know,  my  lord. 

«)|ien  conrt  a  motion   1  maile  1h(    ,...., ,. „ 

Andiew  li.  Lain;,',  and  to  ask  for  a  formal  order  for  his  exam 
ination. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — That 
is  a},'reed  to,  I  understand. 

Mr.  Peters:— Yes,  Connsel  on  the  other  side  have  agreed 
to  it.       I  be};  to  move  as  follows; 

In  the  matter  of  the  Hehriu};  Sea  Claims  Convention,  and 
in  the  nmtter  of  the  Claim  of  Her  Hritannic  Majesty  arisinj,' 
out  of  the  seizure  of  the  schooner  "W.  P.  Sayward,"  and  in 
the  matter  of  the  personal  Claim  of  Andrew  H.  Lainjr;  "I"" 


50 


60 


ip<ui  liearint; 
I'nited  States  and  by  consent. 

It  is  ordered  that  Keiud  Small,  be  and  is  hereby  appointed 
a  special  examiner  to  take  the  evidence  of  the  said  Andrew 
|{.  Lain<r.  de  bene  esse. 

And  it  is  further  ordered  that  the  Counsel  for  Her  P.rilaii 
iiic  Majesty  shall  be  at  liberty  to  examine  the  said  witness 
on  oatli  before  the  said  examiner,  who  is  hereby  emjioweK  d 
to  administer  the  oath  to  said  witness,  upon  sivinn  reasimaW. 
notice  of  the  time  and  place  of  such  examination  to  rlie 
Couns<!  for  the  (Jovernment  of  the  I'nited  States. 

And  it  is  further  ordered  that  the  deposition  of  tlie  said 
witness  when  taken  and  certitied  by  said  examiner  shall  be 
tiled  with  the  Seci-etary  of  the  Commissioners;  and  that  (he 
Counsel  for  Her  Hri tannic  Majesty  may  use  the  said  (h'pesi 
tictn  as  evidence  on  the  hearinfj;  of  the  above  claim,  saving  ail 
jtist  exceptions. 

Dated  at  Victoria,  in  the  Province  of  Kritish  Columbia, 
November  -'"th,  1S!K!. 

Mr.  Peters  ccmtinued  to  say:  As  a  matter  of  fact,  althou^ih 
Counsel  on  tlu'  other  side  have  not  seen  the  e.xact  form  of  litis 
order,  yet  they  have  notice  of  il.  anti  if  they  should  rais-,'  aiiy 
objection  whatever  1  shall  correct  it  according;  to  their  su.u;- 
•jestioii. 

The  Commissioners  entered  the  above  order. 

The  Commissioners  then  adjourned  the  sittiu^;  until  half- 
l>ast  tea  o'clock  tomorrow  morning. 


Commissioners  under  the  Convention  of  February  8,  1896,  between 
Great  Britain  and  the  United  States  of  America- 
Chambers  of  the  Legislative  Assembly, 

At  Victoria,  November  28,  1896. 

At  Kh.'SO  a.m.  the  Commissioners  took  their  seats. 
The  Commissi<uier  on  the  part  of  Her  ISrilannic  Majesty:— 
The  Court  is  now  open. 

Mr.  Pi'ters: — Vestenhiy,  when  your  Honours  met  you  re 
(|uested  copies  of  the  Canadian  statute.  I  have  been  able  to 
iind  three  copies,  which  I  hand  lo  llie  ("(uumission. 

(Copies  passed  to  the  Secretaiy.) 


A 


S 


10 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


17 

Your  IIonoiii'H  will  note  with  r«'Ka'"<l  ♦<»  tlu'sc.  tluit  tlicre 
ar»' Hoinc  inkod  altcraUoiiH  in  tlu*  wlti'dulc.  The  i'oiivcntion 
waH  not  «iuitf  in  tiiat  HliaiK'  wlicn  it  went  before  (lie  railed 
StatcH  Senate.  Tliow  red  ink  alterations  i-epresenl  clianjies 
made  in  tlie  Convention  when  it  was  Itefore  tlial  Senate. 
They  were  not  so  jirinted  in  the  sehednle  to  the  Canntlian  slat 
nte.  Ther«'  was  an  additional  nile  s\i>;j(es!ed  by  tlie  llijih  <"(ini 
niisHioners  wilh  irgard  to  the  cross-examination  of  witnesses 
lirodn4'ed  in  a  second  «a8e  who  laid  been  examined  in  tlie 
prior  case.  The  nde  as  snt,'K<'«ted  was  as  follows:  "If  either 
Iiarty  thus  transfers  any  part  of  the  testimony  of  any  one  of 
Ins  own  witnt'sses  relating'  to  any  nialtei*  as  to  whiih  such 
witness  has  not  been  cross-examined,  such  jmrty  shall  at  (In- 
request  of  the  other  party  simultaneously  produce  such  wit 
ness  for  cro8s-«'xaniination  in  reference  then'to,  excejit  so  fai- 
as  the  Commissioners  shall  otherwise  direct."  We  have  su<i 
jested,  and  I  have  submitted  the  suj,'};esti«m  to  my  friend  on 
the  other  side,  an  additi<m  like  this:  "This  rule  shall  not  be 
applied  if  at  the  time  of  the  examination  of  such  witness  the 
party  producinp  him  shall  declare  his  intention  of  usinu  (he 
evidence  in  subsetjuent  cases,  namin<<r  them,  and  indicating 
the  jiortion  of  such  eviden<'e  so  intended  to  be  us( d."  So  far 
as  I  understand  that  dcM'S  not  nie«'t  the  exact  npiu'oval  of  my 
learned  friend,  and  may  not  probably  meet  the  approval  of 
tlu' (Commissioners.  I  think  it  wonld  be  sullicient  if  the  mat- 
ter be  left  to  a  very  great  extent  in  the  hands  «>f  the  (Commis- 
sioners. It  should  not  be  necessary  to  produce  a  wilnes;; 
for  further  examination,  but  if  the  (Commissioners,  or  either 
of  them,  thou<.';ht  that  either  side  should  ])roduce  a  witness 
for  further  cross  examination,  we  should  be  jierfectly  willing 
to  leave  them  in  that  way.  Our  desire  is.  so  far  as  possible, 
to  complete  the  examination  of  a  witness  when  he  is  put  in 
the  stand,  as  well  as  his  cross-examination.  If  (his  idea  sug 
gested  by  us  does  not  nu'et  the  a])proval  of  the  Commis- 
sioners, we  are  willinp  to  put  it  in  any  form  that  will  meet 
their  view  of  the  case. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  Fnited  States: — Is 
not  your  suggestion  well  covered  by  the  closing  woi'ds  of  the 
proposed  addition  to  the  rule? 


Mr.    Dickinson : — "Except 
shall  otherwise  direct." 


so    far  as    the    Commissione?s 


The  CCommifisioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States:— Sup 
posing  it  appears  fo  the  Commissiom-rs  that  u]Kin  th(>  direct 
examination  of  a  witness,  either  your  witness  or  the  witness 
of  the  United  States,  the  counsel  for  you  or  the  counsel  for 
(he  I'nited  States  pointed  out  clearly  and  disdnctlv  to  (he 
counsel  on  the  other  side  that  it  was  intended  t<i  use  that  tes 
timony  in  a  subsequent  case,  and  the  counsel  on  the  other 
rade  then  refused  and  neglected  to  cross-examine,  and  it  af 
terwards  appeared  that  there  was  no  good  reasiui  for  not 
cross examing  at  that  time,  do  you  not  think  (he  Commis 
shmers.  under  the  closing  words,  would  hold  the  nia((er  in 
hand  as  you   suggest? 

Mr.  Peters: — We  must  jiroduce  a  witness  for  second  cross 
examination  if  the  matter  is  kept  in  the  hands  of  the  Com 
missioners;  of  <'ourse  that  is  only  fair. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  (he  Cnited  States:— The 
difficulty  about  any  fixed  rule  seems  to  be  that  any  such  rule 
would  re(|uire  a  good  deal  of  «'xamina(ion  of  witnesses  in 
the  air.  all  of  which  might  prove  ultimately  to  be  of  no  sort 
of  tise.  Then,  in  all  the  changes,  delays  and  contingencies 
of  litigation,  it  is  inii»ossible  for  counsJ-l  to  foresee.  When 
the  fifth  rah'  was  i)assed  on  by  the  Commissionei-s  I  rather 
supposed  that  it  had  ref«'n'nce  to  some  great  leading  ques 


|8 

tioiiB  which  it  is  not  d«'»ii'<'d  to  prove  over  and  over  nfjain — 
leading  factH.  When  I  ranic  to  read  llu'  rule  ajtain.  I  saw- 
that  it  applied  not  only  'o  leadinjf  fads.  I»ut  to  partiiiilar 
facts,  and  that  is  where  the  dilti<  iillv  came  iii. 

Mr.  Peters: — The  difliciiit.v  ina.v  not  aris*!'  so  ninch.  per- 
liajm.  as  we  anticipate.  However-,  we  are  enliri-lv  satistled 
with  anything;,  so  lonfi'  as  tie  Coniniissioners  have  control. 

lO  The  Coininissioner  on  the  part   of  the  Inited  Stiites: — My 

associate  makes  this  siiffjiestion.  to  lake  the  place  of  the  ra- 
tluT  rigid  form  of  siifjuestion  mad;  l)y  me.  as  follows:  "Th' 
<"<»mmiBsioni'is,  oi-  either  of  them,  may  reipiire  that  such 
witness  shall  he  produced  for  fuither  cross  examination." 
Now.  I  think  my  associate  and  myself  are  agreed  that  coun 
sel  had  better  lake  this  suy:ftestion  and  yo  over  the  matter 
amon^;  themselves  ajiain.  and  perhaps  I  hey  will  he  able  to 
agree  im  scunething  satisfactory. 

20  The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Mritannic  Majesty  :-- 
If  evidence  is  tendered  and  it  would  seem  that  the  cross-ex- 
amining counsel  did  not  have  the  facts  sutlicienily  develop- 
ed to  have  made  an  effective  cro8s-examinati(»n  when  the  evi- 
dence was  tiisT  tendered,  clearly  he  should  have  the  right  to 
have  the  witness  produced  so  that  cross  examination  might 
be  made  full  and  aderpiate. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  Stales: — All 
I  can  add  is.  that  it  seems  to  me  the  suggestion  made  by  mv 
cot'oinmissionei-  is  altogether  more  Hexilde  than  anything 
we  have  had  before. 

Mr.  IHckinson: — I  was  about  to  say  that  his  Lordship  quite 
a|>preh<>nds  what  is  in  our  minds,  that  the  ciossexaniination 
of  a  witness  may  be  necessary,  and  appear  to  be  necessarv, 
in  connection  with  the  other  testimony  in  the  case  in  which 
it  is  introduced.  And  with  this  amendment  we  are  entirely 
satislhd.      And  shall  the  rule  stand.  .Mr.  I'eiers? 

Mr.  Peters: — ^■e».  that  is  tpiite  satisfactory. 

*  The  Commissioner  on  the  jiart  of  the  rnited  States: — Will 

not  tile  counsel  take  the  matter  and  put  it  in  such  form  as 
they  agree  on. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Ves.  your  Honour.  I  would  say  to  the 
High.  Commissioners  that  the  counsel  for  (he  I'liilcd  States 
will  be  quite  within  the  rule,  and  have  their  answers  all  in 
within  the  three  days,  excluding  the  holiday.  We  exjiect 
to  serve  our  frien<ls  with  the  cojties  to-day. 

There  are  two  motions  jiending,  which  have  been  filed,  and 

5Q      our  friends  have  had  notice  of  them,  Cjnim  No.  ."i  and  Claim 

\o.  11.    Will  the  C(unmissioners  have  Uie  Secretary  read  the 

motions,  as   I    undcrstan<l  the  practice  to  have  lieen   in   the 

Paris  Tribunal,  or  are  thev  sufficientlv  familiar  with  Ihem? 


30 


The  Commissioner  on  the  i)art  of  Her  Mi'itannic  Majesty: — 
We  have  the  ])apers  bef<u'e  us. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — In  Claim  No.  ").  the  first  claim  in  order, 
upon  the  questions  raised  here,  and  upon  I  he  decision  of 
grt  those  (juestions.  may  de|)end  a  jirecedeni  that  will  come  u|> 
during  the  hearing  in  various  foinis.  The  questions  we  raisi 
go  to  the  fundamental  law  and  the  jurisdiction  of  the  Tribu 
nal.  and  we  submit  that  they  aie  extremely  important  in 
their  results,  for.  if  we  are  right  in  our  contention  that  these 
cases  are  not  within  the  terms  of  the  Cimveniion.  it  may  f<d 
l(»w.  as  your  Honours  will  see.  thai  either  ( ioveinnieni  may 
at  least  criticise  any  findings  of  the  Tribunal  based  upiMi 
facts,  or  uj»on  cases,  not  covered  by  the  Cunvention.  I  will 
ITfid  Article  I  of  the  Convention,  and  then  call  your  Honours 


■:.? 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


19 

a(t<>ii(ioii  (o  itH  ln'tiriiin  in  ivlatiou  <<»  tlu'  artioii  of  tlu'  Tiiria 
Tribunal. 

The  C'oinniissioiuT  on  the  part  of  tlu-  Tnitt'd  Slatt's: — Will 
you  kindly  stat«'  tho  pith  of  the  motion  to  disniisH? 

Mr.  IMcklnson: — Yes,  your  Honour.  This  is  a  claim  ariw- 
injj  out  of  the  warninfj  of  the  Hcliooncr  "Hlack  IMam<Mid" 
from  lU'hinnn  Sea,  on  July  11,  18S(i.  Your  [Ion<»ur8  will  find 
in  the  schedule  attached  to  the  ('(mventitm  the  name  of  <h<» 
"|{la<k  Diamond"  appeariu},'  in  this  form.  Your  Honours  will 
find  tlu!  Kchednle  of  the  Convention  on  the  last  pafr<'  of  the 
A|)pendi.\  prepared  by  my  learned  friends.  The  name  of  the 
"Hlack  Dianumd"  apjtears  in  the  last  set  of  claims,  entitled 
"ApjM'dix  of  (^laims,"  claims  submitted  to  the  Trihunal 
of  Arbitnition  at  Paris,"  in  these  words:  "'Hlack  Diamond' 
July  11,  18S!>,  ;15  miles,  'Kush,'"  indicating,'  that  the  "Hlack 
Diamond"  was  seized  or  warned  on  July  11.  18S!»,  ;{.')  miles 
from  land  by  the  United  States  revenue  cutter  "Uusli." 
Your  Honours  will  observe  that.it  appears  nowhere  els<>, 
either  in  that  sclunlule  or  in  the  scheduh'  at  the  foot,  entitled 
"Additional  Claims." 

The  Commissiont'r  on  the  part  of  the  I'ulted  States: — 
Tliere  is  a  difference  in  the  form  of  printiuf;  the  Appendix  of 
Claims. 


Mr.  Dickinson :— We 
your  Plononr. 


are  not   informed  in   what   respect, 


The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — In 
many  respects.  The  otticial  copy  furnished  me  by  the  State 
Department  was  printi'd  in  many  resi>ects  dift'erently  from 
the  schedule  appearinj^  upon  the  copy  furnished  the  Court. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — >'ot  in  respect  to  tliis  one  item.  We  had  the 
ollicial  d<K'ument,  and  the  motion  is  based  upon  the  otTicial 
document.  Hut  in  this  respect  the  copy  attached  to  the  Ap- 
pendix of  my  learned  friends  is  precisely  like  the  otlicial  doc- 
ument. 

<'laim  No.  15,  as  to  the  same  vessel,  is  for  a  warning  on 
July  11th,  1S,S)>.  Claim  No.  5,  as  ro  which  tliis  motion  is 
made,  is  for  a  warniuf?  made  in  July,  IS.St!,  three  years  be- 
fore. Hoth  are  for  warninj^s,  and  of  course,  as  we  sliall  sub- 
mit, every  warning!,  as  has  bwu  treated  in  the  proceedinns  of 
the  Tribunal  at  Paris, — evi-ry  warning  has  been  treated  in 
the  Convention  as  a  separate  case,  having  its  own  indepen- 
dent <laim  for  damages,  and,  of  cours<>,  to  be  substantiated 
by  independent  proofs,  entirely  separate  and  distinct  from 
the  others.  Now,  unless  the  claim  is  in  the  schedule,  (M-  re- 
ferred to  in  the  Award  under  Article  I.  of  the  Convention, 
this  claim  cannot  be  considered  by  the  Tribunal.  And  in 
tluit  connection  I  tirst  read  Article  I.  of  the  Convention, 
which  your  Ihmours  will  find  accurately  ((uoted  en  page  \'.\ 
of  my  learned  friend's  Index,  as  follows:  "The  High  Contract- 
ing Parties  agree  that  al!  claims  on  account  of  injuries  sus- 
tained by  persons  in  whose  behalf  <ireal  Hritain  is  entitled 
to  claim  conipensati(m  from  tlie  United  States,  and  arising  by 
virtue  of  the  Treaty  aforesaid,  tlie  Award  and  the  finding  <>f 
the  said  Tribunal  of  Arbitration,  as  also  the  additional 
claims  specified  in  tlie  .'ith  paragrai»h  of  the  preamble  hereto, 
shall  be  referred  to  two  Commissioners,  one  of  whom  shall 
be  appointed  by  the  President  of  the  United  States,  and  the 
other  by  Her  Hritannic  Majesty,  and  each  of  wluun  shall  be 
learne<l  in  the  law.  .\ppended  to  this  Convention  is  a  list 
of  the  claims  intended  to  be  referred." 

Turning  t(>  the  tirst  qualiticatiim.  that  the  claims  must 
arise  from  the  provisions  of  the  Treaty  aforesaid,  on-referr 
ing  to  Article  VIII.  on  page  4  of  the  Appendix,  we  find  the 


,-.!-««!.in-.^ 


71^^^'^ 


->  .-»■■■ 


20 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


jirovisioii  of  (In-  Ticiil.v  wliicli  1h  )h(>  Hultjt-ct  of  tli»»  reference 
ill  Arliilc  I.  of  llic  ('oiiv«'n(ion: 

"Tli«'  lli},'li  (NintractiiiK  I'lirtics  lniviiifj  foiiiiil  tlu'iiiK.clvcH 
iiiiiilili>  to  iigrci'  upon  a  n'f»'rcii(«'  wliiili  hIisiII  iniliKlc  tlif  qiics 
lion  of  (lie  liiibilil.v  of  t'lich  for  the  injiirivH  alli'P'd  to  liavc 
liccn  siislaiiKMl  liy  tlic  otlit-r.  oi-  l»,v  its  citizens,  in  connection 
with  tlic  cliiiinw  iircwcntcd  aii«l  nrncd  by  it;  and  hciiip;  wolici- 
t.  iiH  tliat  tliiH  siihordinatc  tiiicHtion  Nlionld  not  interrupt  or 
'ion<rer  delay  llie  Hiilunission  and  deterininati<»n  of  llu"  main 
«|iiestioiis.  (io  a;,'ree  that  eitlier  may  sulimit  to  the  aibitratorn 
any  (|uestioii  of  fact  involved  in  Hiiid  claims  and  ask  for  a 
llndiiif,'  tlieion,  the  ipieslion  of  the  liability  of  either  (iovern- 
nieiit  upon  the  facts  found  to  be  the  subject  of  further  nefjo- 
tiation." 

The  next  ipialitication  which  a  claim  must  have  to  come 
before  this  Tribunal  is  that  it  must  arise  by  virtue  of  the 
award  and  tin<lin^s  of  the  said  Tribunal  of  Arbitration.  The 
awaul  of  the  Tribunal  of  Arbitration,  Artitle  VIII.,  your 
lionoiiis  will  tind,  so  far  as  this  matter  is  coiKerned,  on  pa(;e 
!(  of  my  friends'Appeiidix.  as  follows,  namely: 

"And  whereas  the  (lovt-rnnient  of  Her  Itritannic  Majesty 
did  submit  to  the  Tribunal  of  Arbitration,  by  Article  VIII. 
of  the  said  Treaty,  certain  (|iiestions  of  fact  involved  in  the 
claims  referred  to  in  the  said  Article  VIII.,  and  di<1  also  sub 
mit  to  us,  the  said  Tribunal,  a  statement  of  the  said  facts,  as 
follows,  that   is  to  say: 

"That  the  several  searches  and  seizures"  including  both 
searches  and  seizures  "whether  of  ships  or  fjoods.  and  the 
several  arrests  of  musters  and  crews,  resjx'ctively  mentioned 
in  the  schedule  to  the  kouish  case,  pp.  1  to  iU)  inclusive,  were 
made  by  tiie  authority  of  the  I'nited  States  (iovernment." 

Xow,  in  the  Uritish  case,  from  jiap's  1  to  <l()  inclusive, 
which  includes  the  schedule  of  claims,  the  warning  <»f  the 
"I'lack  Diamond"  in  the  year  ISSfi  nowhere  appears.  The 
waiiiin;t  of  the  "Hlack  Diamond"  in  1SS!»  does  ajijiear.  and 
yiMir  Honours  will  tind  a  recapitulation  of  all  the  claims  on 
the  last  |ia;;e  of  the  Itritish  case  ideiititied  as  within  tin- 
pap's  1  to  (id  inclusive,  of  the  Itritish  case  in  the  award  of 
the  Arbitrators.  "The  <)iiestions  as  to  the  value  of  the  said 
v<'ssels  or  tlieii  (intents,  or  either  of  them,  and  the  ([uestion 
as  to  whether  the  vessels  mentioned  in  the  schedul(>  to  the 
Mrilish  case,  or  any  of  them,  were  wludly  or  in  part  the  ac- 
tual jiroperty  of  citizi-ns  of  the  Tnited  States,  have  been 
withiliawn  from  and  have  not  been  considered  by  the  Tribu- 
nal, it  beinjf  understood  that  it  is  ojien  to  the  I'nited  States 
to  raise  tliese  i|iiestions,  or  any  of  them,  if  they  think  lit. 
in  any  future  ne};otiati<ins  as  to  the  liability  of  the  I'liited 
Slates  < iovernment  to  jiay  the  amounts  mentioned  in  the 
sclie<liile  to  the  Hrilish  case." 

"2.  That  the  seizures  afoicsaid.  with  the  excejition  of  the 
"I'athlinder"  seized  at  Xeali  Kay.  were  made  in  Helirin^  Sea. 
at  till-  distances  from  shore  meiititined  in  the  silwdule  an- 
nexed hereto  marked  (<")."  This  is  clause  2.  ("laiise  4  in 
further  identification: 

"That  the  several  orders  mentioned  in  the  schedule  annex 
ed  hereto  and  marked  (<").  warniiifi;  vessels  to  leave  or  not  to 
enter  Itehrin^  Sea.  were  made  by  public  armed  vessels  of  the 
railed  Stales,  the  commanders  of  which  had.  at  the  several 
times  when  they  were  ^{iveii.  like  instructions  as  mentioned 
in  tindiiij;  .$.  and  that  the  vessels  so  warned  were  eiif;a}ied  in 
sealiiifT  or  proseciitinn  voyatjes  for  that  jiiirjiose.  and  that 
such  action  was  adopted  liy  the  (iovernment  of  the  Tnited 
Stiilcs." 

".'».  That  the  district  courts  of  the  I'nited  States  in  which 
any  proceediiiffs  were  had  or  taken  for  the  jiiii'iiose  of  con- 
demiiinir  any  vessel  seized  as  mentioned  in  the  schedule  Io 
the  case  of  (ireat   Itritain,  pp.  1  to  lit)  inclusive,  had  all  the 


31 

jiii-imliition  iind  iHtwi-rs  of  »oiiHh  of  iuliiiiralty.  iiicliiiliiiu;  Hi" 
piizi'  jiiiiHdictioii,  but  that  in  *'acli  caMc  Hie  st'iiti'iicf  pro 
iioiiii»»'(l  b.v  the  court  was  ba«tMl  upon  the  ttrouudw  set  forth 
in  (lit-  lilH'l. " 

Th«'ir  wan  a  mlu'duic  attached  to  tlic  Award  of  tlic  Iribu- 
nal  of  A rl»it ration,  at  pajtc  II  of  tlu-  Appendix  of  ni.v  friends, 
and  we  find  tliere  tlie  "Mhicl;  Diamond."  -Iiil.v  11.  ISS't.  :!.". 
miles,  and  seized  l».v  the  steamer  "Uush."  or  warned  h.y  tliat 

10  steamer.  Now,  then,  it  certainly  is  not  a  claim  which  is 
within  the  lauKuane  of  Article  I.  of  this  Convention,  "one 
arisin},'  by  the  award  and  llndinns  of  tlie  said  Tribunal  of  Ar 
bitrati<in,"  as  every  claiiM  which  was  before  it,  and  as  to 
which  any  fact  was  found,  are  carefully  specitied  by  the 
]Min-H  of  the  Hritish  case,  by  the  recapitulation  of  the  ISritish 

case,   and  by  tlie  Trilu 1  of  Arbitration  itself;  not  only  iiy 

that  but  by  its  own  schedule.  Now,  is  it  un  additional  claim, 
if  the  court  please,  within  the  ineaninj;  of  the  article?  It  is 
not,  because  in  the  5th  parajiraiih  of  the  article  there  is  ref 

20  erence  made  to  seizures  or  interference  with  but  four  ships, 
to  wit:  the  "Wanderer,"  "Winnifred,"  "Henrietta,"  and  the 
"Oscar  and  llattie."  embracinf;  n<tt  merely  the  claims  for 
seizure  but  claims  for  interference  which  this  claim  5  is. 

The  ('(unniissioiu'r  on  the  part  of  Her  r>ritanni<-  Majesty: — 
Are  two  claims  made  in  respe<t  to  the  "Hlack  IMamond."  tine 
a  warnintj  in  IS.sti  and  <me  a  warning  in  ISS'.t,  or  is  tlu*re  one 
claim,  and  a  date  jjiven  other  than  that  named  in  the  orij;i 
nal? 

3°  Mr.  Dickinson: — There  are  two  claims  tiled;  there  is  this 

claim  tiled  and  claim  lo  for  the  "Itlack  Diamond."  and  both 
sire  for  warnin}rs.  Now,  the  next  meiins  of  idi'ntilication  as 
to  what  claims  may  be  presented  to  this  Tribunal,  is  at  the 
close  of  Article  I.,  as  follows:  "Appended  to  this  Convention 
is  a  list  of  the  claims  intended  to  be  referre<l." 

Mr.  I'eters: — It  was  not  a  warninfi;  it  was  a  seizure. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — It  is  a  warning;,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  as 
40        you  set  it  out  here;  you  have  not  fjot  the  riftht  one. 

The  Commissioner  <m  the  part  of  tlu'  I'nited  States: — That 
is  where  the  difUculty  arose  that  I  called  attentiim  to.  It  is 
dea.  !y  a  seizure  as  ])rinted  in  the  otHcial  copy  which  I  have. 
It  may  or  n<)t  b«'  a  seizure,  that  is  not  essential  here  now. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — That,  as  I  shall  show  your  Honours,  is 
immaterial  anyway,  (■laiin  ir>,  as  here  presente*!,  is  for  a 
warnin};;  jii-ecisely  like  that  of  1S8!>.  Now,  it  hardly  needs 
an  nrfiunient  in  presentin<i  this  motion  to  your  Honours,  to 
denumstrate  that  a  case  for  damajjes  and  ccunjiensation  for 
;'  seizure  nnide  in  ISSt!,  (»r  for  a  warning  nuide  in  ISSCi,  is  inde- 
jiesident  and  distinct  from  the  case  of  comiiensation  for  a 
warniu};  made  in  ISS!).  Your  Ibuiours  will  observe,  as  s\is- 
taininfj  our  construction,  that  wherever  there  has  been  or 
were  two  cases  or  claims  for  comjieiisation  in  respect  of  the 
sjime  vessel  ln'fore  tlu'  Tribunal  of  Arbitration,  the  claims 
have  been  specified  in  other  cases  as  distinct  and  separate 
claims,  as,  for  instance,  in  tho  case  of  the  "Triumph,"  which 
^Q  your  Honours  will  find  in  the  A]i]K'ndix  of  Claims,  in  tin; 
schedule  of  the  Itritish  cas«',  pajjes  1  to  <><>  inclusive,  in  its 
recapitulation,  and  in  the  schedule  attached  to  the  Award  of 
the  Tribunal  of  Paris.  The  "Tiiumph"  is  scheduled  twice, 
first  for  a  seizure  and  a  warniuf;  <ui  Aun'ust  4th,  IMS",  and 
s«>cond  f<»r  a  warning;  or  seizure  on  July  11th,  IHSIt;  and  both 
were  warninjis  as  sjiecilied  in  the  schedules,  and  in  the  testi- 
UKUiy  of  th(>  Hritish  case,  pay*'"  1  to  till  inclusive. 

The  sanu'  thin*;  occui-s  as  to  the  "rathtinder." 
sclu'dnled  in  the  Hritish  case  before  the  Paris  Tribunal,  and 
recapitulated  in  the  Hritish  ca.se  before  the  Paris  Tribunal, 


;o 


in 


::o 


3" 


4<"' 


5" 


6o 


33 

Htlu'duhMl  iiii'i  dofliM'd  in  the  I'liiiw  Triltunal  in  tJio  Appen- 
dix of  rlalniH  annexed,  and  sclieduled  in  llie  A|>pendix  »»f 
claiinn  HuJunitted  to  tlie  Tribunal  of  Arititration  at  I'ariH  to 
tIdH  Convention.  The  "Pathfinder"  whh  Heized  or  warned 
on  .Inl.v  27tli.  IHS!),  by  the  steamer  "UuhIi,"  50  niileH  from 
Hliore;'«nd  Hlie  was  alHO  seized  in  Neali  Hay  on  March  27th, 
1S1M»,  l»y  the  "Corwin."  A  tliird  case  is  the  case  of  the  "A1 
frcd  Adams,"  whicii  was  warned  or  s»'ized  on  August  10, 
1SH7,  by  the  "Rusli,"  and  tlien  under  tlie  name  of  tlie  "Lily." 
On  Aujjnst  (>th,  IHHU.  she  was  warned  by  the  same  United 
States  ri'venue  <Mitter.  all  as  appearinji  by  the  same  schedule. 
Now.  may  it  please  your  Honours.  I  do  not  know  that  it  is 
necessary  to  refer  to  the  nefjotiations  between  the  respective 
Governments,  but  if  it  shall  be,  it  can  be  d«'monstrated  that 
it  was  attemi>ted  to  put  in  this  «laini,  and  to  have  it  brought 
before  this  Convention  when  the  <;<mvention  was  nejjotiated. 
but  that  it  was  omitted,  and  neither  put  in  as  an  additional 
I'laim,  nor  in  the  case  of  claims  submitted  to  the  I'aris  Tnbu- 
nal.  The  very  title  of  this  schedule  shows,  may  it  jdease  the 
<'ourt.  that  only  <laims  submitted  to  the  I'aris  Tribunal  were 
to  be  presented  to  this  <%mvention,  with  the  sin>;le  excejition, 
and  tliat  exception  covers  what  are  entitled  "additional 
claims,"  and  ihose  additional  claims  are  those  referred  to  in 
preamble  tive,  in  which  the  independent  warniufr  of  this  ship, 
the  "Hlack  Diamond,"  does  not  appear.  We  submit,  may  it 
l>U'ase  your  Honours,  that  it  is  essential  that  cure  should  be 
exercised  upon  the  (piestion  of  the  claims  presented  and  act- 
ed upon  by  the  Tribunal,  because  of  the  elTect  |M»ssible  upon 
the  Award  itself,  and  that  this  case  is  not  one  which  can  be 
consid«'red  by  this  Tribunal. 

Mr.  Peters: — Mjiy  it  jdease  the  t Commissioners,  the  objec- 
tion taken  by  my  learned  friend  to  claim  No.  5,  with  refer- 
ence to  the  "Hlack  Diamond,"  may  be  briefly  stated  to  be 
that  the  "Hlack  Diannrnd's"  name  does  not  app«'ar  twice  on 
the  schedule  of  this  <-onvention,  and  that  the  year  1SH(>  is  not 
expressly  stated  in  the  sclu  vlule  with  rejjard  to  tlM>  claim  <»f 
(lie  "Hlack  Diamond."  He  arjjues,  thereore,  (hat  this  case 
does  not  come  under  the  terms  of  the  Convcnticm  at  all.  That 
is  to  say,  his  <"ontention  is  that  the  date  is  a  material  part  of 
the  statement  in  the  schedule  of  the  Convention.  Our  conten- 
tion is  the  contniry.  We  submit  that  the  tiate  is  merely 
stated  in  that  schedule  as  a  piece  of  infornuition.  The  new 
<laim  of  the  "Hlack  Diamond"  we  have  for  the  sake  of  con- 
venience jdaccd  in  a  sejtarate  claim  and  in  order  to  keep  the 
claims  of  1SS(!  as  separate  as  jjossible  from  those  of  1SH7.  I 
submit  that  that  in  no  way  affects  the  jurisdiction  of  this 
Tribunal.  We  submit  that  the  claim  of  IHSO  in  reality  is 
merely  to  be  look(>d  at  as  an  addition  to  the  amount  of  coni- 
jiensation  to  be  paid  in  respect  to  the  schooner  "Hlack  Dia- 
mond." My  learned  friend  hiis  referrwl  to  the  original 
Treaty,  and  also  to  th«'  Convention  to  illustrate  the  point 
that  he  mak«'S.  His  objection  amounts  to  a  statement  that 
the  claim  ef  ilie  "lilack  Diamond"  does  not  come  within  the 
purview  of  the  Convention  at  all.  This  is  but  a  preliminary 
objection  of  my  learned  friend,  but  it  jjoes  to  the  merits  of 
tluM'ase  of  the  "Hla<'k  Diamond,  and  if  the  application  is  sue 
<*essful  away  fjoes  the  whole  claim.  I  propose,  therefore,  to 
hrielly  refer  to  the  Treaty  of  1S02,  and  to  see  whether  the 
conclusion  that  my  learned  fiiend  attempts  to  draw  from  the 
w(M<linj;  (►f  that  Treaty  and  Convention  can  be  sustaine«l. 
What  are  the  facts  that  existed  in  1S!)2,  and  what  was  the 
actual  situation  when  that  Treaty  was  made?  At  the  time 
theTrt-aly  was  made  there  were  several  very  imjtortant  ques- 
tions of  prini-i|)le  existing  between  the  United  States  (lovern- 
ment  and  the  (Sovernment  of  Her  Majesty.  The  main  «]ues 
tion  was  as  to  the  special  rijjhts  claimed  by  the  United 
States  in  the  ItehriuK  ^'*i>-     There  was  another  question  en- 


I 


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lircl.v  siiliHidiiiiv.  jiikI  tliat  wax,  wlu'tluT  ccrlain  people,  who 
)ia<i  Im-cii  injiimi  hv  ii-awuii  of  the  ciifdncnicnt  of  the  claiiiM 
of  tlh'  riiilcil  Stales,  slioiild  rcrcivc  coiiipi  iisalioii.  ;iii<l  if  «o, 
liow  murli?  This  was  a  (picslioii  ciitii-cly  sulmidiarv  to  th«' 
(pii'Hiion  of^fi>;ht.  and  it  \va^  so  dialt  with  in  tlic  Titatv  ii- 
mdf.  If  we  hM»l<  at  tin-  Troatv  we  tind  tliat  it  stai-ts  out  in 
the  liist  of  the  prcanihh'  with  tiic  statt-nn'iit:  "ller  Majesty 
1  lie  Queen  of  the  liiited  Kingdom  of  (ireat  Uiitain  and  lie- 
lan<l.  and  tin-  liiited  States  of  America.  Iieinjt  <h'sifous  l<i 
ptovide  for  an  aiuitalde  settleiU'-ni  of  (lie  ipieslions  whi<'h 
liave  arisen  he) ween  their  respective  (iovernuients  concern- 
in;;  the  jurisdictiiuial  rights  of  the  liiiled  Stales  in  the 
waters  of  liehriuK  !^ea.  and  coucernin;;  also  the  preservation 
of  the  fur  seal  in  nv  hahituall.v  resortin;;  to  the  said  waters, 
have  resolved  to  suhiuit  to  arl>itraii(ui  the  ipiestions  inv<dv- 
ed,  and  to  the  end  of  concluding  a  ccuivention  for  that  pur- 
pose have  ap|iointed  as  their  resjiective  pleiiipoteuliaries." 
There  is  no  statement  in  that  part  of  the  Tn-aty  that  would 
hear  out  the  contention  of  my  learned  friend  opposite.  I'er- 
tain  claims  for  c«)mpensatiou  were  made  hefore  this  Treaty 
was  agreed  upon,  and  they  were  presented  Ity  the  (i<»vern- 
ment  of  lireat  Hritain  to  tiie  (iovernment  of  the  I'nited 
States      Article  S  makes  this  slateinent: 

"The  hi^rh  conlraclintr  parties  havintf  fotind  themselves 
unahle  to  a;;ree  upon  a  reference  which  shall  include  the  (pies- 
tioii  of  the  liahility  of  each  for  the  injuries  alleged  to  have 
heeii  sustained  hy  the  other,  or  by  its  citi/.ens,  in  connection 
with  the  claims  presented  and  urt;ed  hy  it:  and  hein;;  solicit- 
ous that  this  suhordinate  ouestion  should  not  interrupt  or 
lon<^er  delay  I  he  suhmissioii  an«l  determinati(Mi  of  the  main 
<]uestions.  do  a;;re«'  that  either  may  submit  to  the  arbitrators 
any  <|iieslion  of  fact  involved  in  said  claims,  and  ask  for  :i 
tindin;;  thereon,  the  ipn-slioii  of  the  liability  of  either  (iov- 
ernment  upon  the  facts  found  to  be  the  subject  of  further 
ney;otiation." 

Therefore  the  \ery  statement  in  the  Treaty  itself  is  »hat 
claims  which  already  had  been  made  and  which  would  be 
made,  should  not  IIkmi  be  a<l.judicated.  and  the  Paris  '  ibunal 
passed  no  jud^rment  which  would  attVt't  claims  umde  t/r  there- 
after to  be  mad<'.  Article  \'lll.  ^jives  the  < '<»ininissioners  cer- 
tain rluties  to  <lischar;;e  with  rey;ai(l  to  these  claims.  It  is  per- 
fedly  appaient  that  when  the  Paris  Tribumil  was  siltin;;  it 
could  only  ;rive  tindin^rs  of  fact  in  re;:ar<l  to  claims  whi<li 
had  already  been  presented,  ami  in  regard  to  these  claims 
what  does  it  say?  It  says  that  either  party  may  jtresent 
finding's  of  fact,  and  that  these  tindin;;s  of  fact  shall  be  adju- 
dicated upon  by  the  Tribunal.  After  that  it  provides  that 
ihese  claims  should  be  rele^raled  to  future  nev;otiations  be- 
lW'.<'n  thi  two  iHtvernments;  that  was  the  w;iv  that  the 
.\ward  was  mai'e.  <'ertain  claims  were  presented  to  that 
Tribunal  and  tindin«s  of  fact  v.ere  <{iven.  .\fter  the  .\wiird 
ha<l  been  made,  and  in  snbse(iuent  ne^'oliations  Ihese  claim- 
all's  had  special  advantage,  tlicy  had  the  benetit  of 
the  tindiiiKs  of  facts  wliicli  had  been  delivered,  and 
they  cr.uld  avail  tliemselves  of  them.  It  needs  no  artrunient 
to  show  that  it  was  (piile  open  for  the  iiovcriiinents  of  either 
side  afterwards,  when  thev  entered  into  the  nesjotiations.  to 
take 'nt(>  conshderation  any  claims  which  they  saw  lit.  Then- 
was  a  sl.itement  of  fait  and  an  .\ward  was  inatle.  and  after 
that  Award  was  nuuh'  cerlain  nepitiatiiMis  diil  take  jdace. 
In  the  course  of  these  negotiations  claims  were  put  in  bv  the 
<Ioveriiment  of  < ireat  Mrit.iin  to  the  (iovernment  of  the 
Iip'ted  States,  the  particulars  of  the  cl;,iiMs  were  ]Mit  in  on  the 
7th  of  .Mine,  1,V!I4.  in  the  letter  of  Sir  luliaii  l',iuncef<»te  ad- 
dressed to  Mr.  (Jresham.  The  oflicial  corresinrndence  in  the 
matter,  which  of  course  must  be  considered  as  beinff  before 
the  Tribunal,  can  easily  be  referred  to.  On  the  "tli  of  June. 
18!)4.  Sir  Julian  Pouncefote  wrote  to  Mr.  Grosham  a  letter  iu 


u 


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wliifli  lie  pliufd  II  coinidftc  Mh*  of  tli»'  cliiliHH  liiU'iidort  to  Ih' 
l»i«'H«iiti-»l  UH  fur  iiH  llu'ii  kiit)\vii,  ami  in  tlnil  wluMliilf  tliu 
I'liiiiii  of  till-  'Itltuk  UiauKtutl"  for  Lssij  wu«  diHtiiiill.v  wt 
foilh. 

Mr.  IMckinsoii:— That  was  hvtoiv  the  Couvi'utlon,  if  [  nn- 
ilt'i-Htaixl  ari^lit. 

Mr.  I'ctcix:— Oil,  vfH.  licfoic  llic  HlffiiiiiK  »>f  Ciis  Conven- 
tion. I  tali  voiir  I'lononrH  atli-iilioii  to  tlu-  <'.\art  form  in 
wliicli  (!«al  clalui  was  pat   in. 

The  «'oi,)iiiissioii(  r  on  tin-  part  of  Her  Majiwtv.— What  am 
.you  leading  fr«nn? 

Mr.  IVtiTH: — I  am  readinj;  from  tlu-  t'X«'Outlvi»  document 
prcwntt'd  to  the  llouw  «»f  HciavsmtntlvcH  of  the  United 
Slates:  "Senate  Kx.  hoe.  No.  (!7."  That  sehedule  as  Ket  forth 
was  then  siipiiosed  to  he  a  eomplete  statement  of  all  the 
elaims  to  he  presented.  Man.v  of  them  had  been  presented 
lirevioiisly  to  lliat.  It  lu'tjins  with  the  "Carolena."  the  tirst 
ease,  and  pies  all  thr<Mij;h  the  whole  of  them.  Now.  that 
was  tlu'  way  the  elaini  was  put  in  "Kxtra  ftn-  'llhuk  IMa- 
moiid,"  issc!  #7,r)(H»,"  that  was  the  entry  of  the  elaini.  and  I 
eall  your  Honours  spe<ial  attention  to  it.  That  elaim  was 
presented  by  Sir  Julian  ranneefote,  to  Mr.  tireshain 
for  the  purpose  of  these  nej;otialions.  and  with  a  view, 
at  the  time,  of  brin^in^r  it  before  this  Coneention.  Now 
let  me  brinn  this  further  faet  to  the  attention  of  the  t'ominis- 
sioners:  I  think  I  am  correct  in  sayinfj  that  th«'re  never  was 
any  objection  raised  (at  all  events  so  far  as  apjiears  fnnn  the 
corresp(mdeiice|  cm  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States  (loveni- 
ment  to  the  inserti(ui  of  the  claim  of  the  "HIack  l)iam«md" 
in  that  list,  nor  was  there  any  8ut?};eHti<»n  on  the  jmrt  of  the 
liiited  States  that  it  was  improper  or  wroiifi  that  that  claim 
sliould  be  pressed.  This  claim  was  presented  in  a  most  for- 
mal manner  by  the  representative  of  Her  Hritannic  Majesty 
to  the  tiovrnment  of  the  I'nited  States,  and  no  (►bjection 
was  raised  by  the  latter  (Jovernment  to  it.  Now.  then,  as  a 
matter  of  fact,  when  the  ('onventi<m  was  actually  drawn  we 
find  that  the  only  claim  in  re^^ard  to  the  "Mlack  Diamond"  is 
a  <'laiin  which  my  learned  friend  contends  must  be  contined 
to  the  year  1SS!»'.  Why  was  the  claim  of  the  "Mlack  Dia- 
nnuid"  for  ISHt!  apparently  strm-k  out?  What  was  the  r«'as- 
on  for  that?  My  answer  is.  and  I  claim  it  to  be  the  correct 
answer,  that  the  year  was  a  matter  looked  tip<m  as  entirely 
immaterial.  My  learned  friend  s«>eins  to  arj;ue  that  it  must 
have  been  struck  out  for  the  reason  that  objection  was  raised 
to  it.     I  do  not  believe  tliar  that  was  at  all  the  case. 

It  is  a  matter  of  history.  aithou};li  so  far  as  either  party  are 
ciuicerned  neither  party  are  bound  by  the  nef^otialions  or 
statdiieiits  made  during  the  negotiations,  that  prior  to  this 
convention  a  lumi»  sum  had  been  ajjreed  on  between  the 
p.-irties  as  to  the  amount  that  should  be  paid  in  these  matters. 
I  think  tliat  the  fact  that  a  liim])  sum  was  agreed  on  has 
I'othin^  to  do  with  (he  amount  that  should  be  ^iveii  luM'e,  and 
I  think  liotli  of  us  will  a^^ree  on  that  point.  lint,  as  a  mat- 
ft  r  of  fact,  it  is  to  b<  noted  that  wh<>n  that  lump  sum  was 
under  consideration  (his  claim  of  the  "HIack  Diamond"  was 
one  i<f  the  claims  actually  unsittled,  and  I  think  it  was  pruc 
(ic.illy  ai^reed  that  it  sh<iuld  be  settled  by  that  lump  sum  set 
tIeiiK  Ml.  Von  tlieref(H'e  have  the  fact  that  this  claim  was 
pill  before  the  American  tiovernmeiit  without  objection.  Now, 
tli'ii.  I  have  myself  under  my  hand  a  sl.itement  which  leads 
me  not  only  to  think,  but  to  be  almost  absolutely  certain, 
that  the  view  taken  by  Sir  Julian  l*auncefote,  and  also  if  he 
has  understood  the  Secretary  of  State,  Mr.  Olney,  correctl.v. 
Mr.  Oliiey's  view  was  that  thi'  cl.iiiii  of  the  "Ulack  Diamond" 
was  lefl  out  of  the  < 'onveiition  because  both  parties  thoii{;ht 


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as 

that  tlic  oxtra  ilaiiii  for  ISStl  did  not  all'cct  tlii>  ilaiiii  itself, 
I  III  waH  Hiiiipl.v  ail  addilioiial  aiiioiint.  I  liavi-  a  stiitcincnt 
wliii'li  aH  a  nialliT  of  fa<-t.  in  oi-diT  to  deal  faiilv  wiili  my 
Icai'iifd  friend  on  tiie  oilier  Hide.  I  ^ave  liiiii  a  lopv  of,  mo  llial 
my  learned  friend  eoiild  not  think  that  I  wiKlied  lo  make  any 
slatemeiil  aH  to  wliieli  I  did  not  let  liini  know.  I  have  ihe 
slaleiiieiit  that  when  iheMe  ronveiilioiiH  were  paHHiii);  helwf<ii 
the  two  (iovernmeiiis.  Sir  Jiiliaii  I'aiiiieefole  sent  a  iiiemor 
aiidiim  lo  IiIh  own  (iovernmeiit  HtaliiiK  IiIh  view,  and  ^'iviii;; 
a  reason  why  the  "lUaek  IManioiid"  waH  left  out.  Now, 
wlieiher  that  staleineiit  is  rorreel  or  not  is  a  mailer  wlii<  h 
|)r<»lialily  <an  lie  easily  ascerlained  liy  my  learned  friend. 
The  slatenieiit  was  as  followN,  and  is  in  a  iiieiiiorandiim  with 
refiard  to  draft  "<*."  one  of  Ihe  many  drafts  with  refjaid  to 
this  t'onvenlion,  and  this  is  Sir  .liilian  I'aiiiiiefoie's  remark 
upon  the  a|iparenl  omission  of  the  "Klaek  Dlaniiind."  lie 
says  Ihe  only  ('ha!i;;e  is  in  the  last  parafiraph  of  Ihe  last  re- 
eital  relating  to  the  siipplemenlary  elainis  is.  "The  ease 
of  the'lthiek  IMaiiiond'  has  been  omitted  at  Ihe  sii^^eslioii  of 
Ihe  Canadian  dele<;ates.  as  it  already  appears  in  the  orii^iiial 
list  of  elainis,  and  the  supplemental  claim  of  the  owner  was 
only  toiicliin^  the  amount  of  «-ompeiisation."  This,  of  course, 
is  a  memorandum,  written  as  a  matter  of  fact,  lon^  before  this 
t'onveiilion  was  arrived  at.  and  it  fiirUier  ^oes  on  lo  say,  and 
of  I  his  I  have  not  a  copy  here — my  learniMl  friend  has  i(  in  a 
iiieiiiorandum  I  sent  him — that  it  was  lhor(iu;;1ily  understood 
between  Mr.  (Hiiey  and  Sir  Julian  I'aiincefote  that,  so  far  as 
these  claims  were  concerned,  the  pailies  were  at  lilierly  to 
prove  any  ainoiinl  of  compensation  that  they  were  able  to 
jirove,  or  words  lo  that  ellVct,  as  to  each  claim.  I  only  ]ioiiit 
this  out  in  fiirlher  proof  of  the  stalemeiit  and  claim  that  I 
make  thai  the  year  ISS!»  was  simply  a  fact  staled  with  rela- 
tion to  the  ship,  thai  she  was  seized  in  that  year,  and  does 
not  at  all  prevent  us  from  provin^j  that  she  was  also  s«'iy.ed 
in  Ihe  year  ISSCi,  or  wariied  in  thai  year. 

The  ('onimisHioner  on  the  jiart  of  Ihe  I'nited  Slatts: — She 
was  not  wariUHl  on  the  lii};li  seas,  was  she? 

Mr.  Peters ; — Yes. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  Slates:— Your 
pel  it  ion  does  not  so  say. 

Mr.  Peters:— I  think  so. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States:— I  do 
not  see  it  there. 

Mr.  Peters: — (Hi.  she  was  warned  by  the  collector  of  ciis- 
tuiiiH. 

The  CoinmlsMioner  on  the  jtart  of  the  United  States:— Slio 
was  not  wunied  on  the  hi;,'li  seas. 

Mr.  Petei-s: — Warned  on  the  coast  of  Alaska.  However. 
1  do  not  propcwe  to  no  into  the  facts  of  tin-  matter. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'liited  States:— The 
facts  may  account  for  the  case  behi},'  left  otf  the  iiiemorau- 
diiin. 

Mr.  Peters: — No,  the  correspondence  shows  why  this  claim 
was  put  in  late,  and  if  I  can  refer  you  to  the  corresiMiiideiice 
on  that  jioint  it  shows  the  reason  why  it  was  jtiit  in  late.  I 
am  readin<j  now  from  the  otiicial  correspondence  published 
by  (ileal  lirilain  im  the  matter. 

The  Commissioner  cm  the  part  of  the  I'liited  States:— Wont 
you  kindly  read  ajjain  what  was  said  bv  Sir  Julian  I'aunce- 
fote? 

Mr.  Peters:— He  says  tlie  only  chaiifje  is  in  the  last  para- 


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){t*ii|>h  of  tilt'  liiHl  rt'ciliil  i-tliitiii;:  til  I  lit-  Hii|i|il<>iiii'iiliii',v 
rlainiM:  "The  iiiNf  of  tin-  'llliiik  liiiiiiioiiir  lian  Im-imi  <iiiiiltf<1 
nt  (III*  HiiKKfMlioii  of  ilic  rnii.Kliiin  <lcl*>i;iit)-s,  hn  ii  ali't'tiilv  iip- 
|M-nrH  ill  til*'  oi'i^iiiiil  IIhI  of  rlniniM  niiil  llx*  HU|i|il<'iiit'iiiiil 
cliiiiii  of  iIh'  owim'I'  wiik  only  loiirliin^  ilio  1111101111I  of  n»iii- 
|H'iiMiitloii.  "TIdiI  wiiH  IiIh  \if\v  of  it.  of  I'oiirHt'  I  iiinli-isiniiil 
tliiit  it  Im  o|m>ii  to  iiiv  IciiI'IdmI  fiifiiti  to  hIiow  lliiit  IiIh  view 
wiiH  not  tlif  viow  tlioroii^hlv  uiiili'i'siooti  liv  liotli  |>iii'tics.  I 
iiiii  only  |iiittiii|;  lliix  forwanl  lo  nImiw  iIuii  lliiil  was  ilif  iiltM 
«)f  Kif  .liiliaii  i'auiii'i-fotf  at  llir  liiiir,  in  r<u|i|ii)i't  uf  tin-  ar^ii- 
tiii-nt  that  I  wixli  to  |it-cNcnt  I41  ilu-  Tiiliniial  that  tin-  nlali'- 
iiioiit  of  till'  ilati-  is  inrrt'ly  a  siati-ini'iit  of  oiii'  fait  1  onni'iti'il 
with  thi>  "lllark  hianioiiil"  anil  Iravi-s  iih  opi-n  to  pnivi'  any 
utht'i'  fart  whlcli  may  lii-  iii-cvHsary. 

Till' t'omnilHsioniT  on  the  pait  of  Hit  MajrHiy:- Mr.  I*i-tris. 
tilt'  Hrlii'iliiii',  HO  far  as  it  ri'lalrs  to  tin-  "Itlad;  hianionil." 
vai'ii'H  from  that  in  Claim  .'i,  in  two  pointH.  not  only  in  i'i'(rai-il 
to  tilt'  (hito,  liiit  in  i-i'ifai'il  lo  tin-  aK*'i>*'>  throii^li  wiiiiii  tin* 
aiilhofity  of  thi'  I'liiti'il  Stati-H  (iovi'iiimiiil  waH  i-xi'itiHcd. 
In  till' Convi-iition  it  is  stati'il  that  tlic  rnitcil  Stali-s  tiovi-in- 
nii'nt  artfi)  tliroiif;li  tin-  "Kiisli"  in  wai-nin^  hi-r  olf  01-  si-izin^' 
Iht. 

Mr.  Pi'tiTs: — Sn|>i»os»'  that  thi'  ('onvi'iition  stati'ii  that  tho 
"Ulack  IMatnonil"  was  si-izi'il  by  thr  ifvi-nni'  riitli'f  "Kiish," 
and  it  turncil  out.  as  a  niattiT  of  fail,  that  shi'  was  si-izi-il  by 
till' rcvi'niii'  riittiT  "forwin."  woiilil  it  In-  ainin-il  for  a  sinyli' 
moini'nt  that  that  riaiiii  was  i'mIiiiIiiI  bi'iaiisi'  wi>  conlil  not 
|irovi>  that  tlw  si'i/.iin'  hail  bi'i'ii  maih'  by  tiii'  vi'ssi-l  siM'citlral- 
iy  incntioni'd?  That  si'i-ms  to  nu'  to  snppoit  my  lonti'iition. 
I  would  Hk«»  to  ri'iid  tho  report. 

Tlu' Comniissioni'r  on  the  jiait  of  lli-i'  Maji'sty: — If  yon  art* 
RtM'kini;  to  iih'ntify  a  riaini  anil  tinil  that  ihi'ii'  arc  two  jiarti- 
t-nlars  in  wliiili  tlu'  idi-ntitlcation  is  not  coinpli'ti'.  it  is  of 
foiii"»t'  stronnt'r  than  if  yon  tint!  tlnrc  is  only  oni'. 

Mr.  I't'tt'i's: — Vi's,  but  I  am  ^roiiiy;  to  irfi-r  paititiilarly  now 
to  tlu' st'ht'ilnli'  which  i  havo  not  yd  lonit'  to  to  siiow  to  the 
fonrt  that  t-vt'ii  in  tlii'  srhi'diih'  ilsi'lf,  in  the  tinilin>;s  of  fart 
itwlf,  till'  ilati's  art'  looki'tl  upon  as  imniati'rial;  tliat  I  will 
t-oiiM'  to  in  a  inoini>nt;  but  1  want  to  n-ad  tirst  tii*'  way  in 
which  this  "Itlaik  Diamond"  <!isi'  of  is.st;  first  lanu'  bcfori' 
tilt'  iiotici'  of  the  American  tiovcrnincnt  and  also  the  liritish 
(lOvtM-nmeiit.  i  am  n<»w  reatlin^  from  a  Hritisli  publica- 
tion, but  it  is  also  in  the  executive  document  referred  to  a 
moment  >mo  under  this  heading;;  it  is  in  the  same  letter  from 
?d!'.  (iresliiim  that  I  have  alre.idy  referred  to,  and  is  as  fol- 
low a: 

"MLACK  l)IAM()NI>."' 

"Additional  chiim  siibmittetl  by  the  master.  Mi'.  Henry 
i'axton.  for  damtifjes  alleped  to  have  been  sustained  by  reason 
of  the  above  schooner  liMviii;;  been  orderetl  out  of  Helirinp 
Hea  in  ISSti,  by  the  Inited  States  authorities. 

This  claim  was  sent  in  too  late  for  insertion  in  the  general 
list  of  Mritisli  claimants.  In  view  of  the  len.utli  of  time  that 
had  elapsed  since  the  occurrence  of  the  action  comi»laineil  of. 
Her  Majesty's  (iovernineiit  ileemed  it  ailvisable  to  cause  an 
impiiry  to  be  made  as  to  the  reason  for  the  delay  in  jiresent- 
inc  the  claiin.  The  reason  tjiveii  was  that  at  the  time  of  the 
seizure  of  the  vessel,  the  coownei's,  who  were  three  in  num- 
ber, were  iloiibtfnl  as  to  how  far  an  appeiil  to  the  Inited 
States  tiovernment  for  redress  would  be  entertained.  In 
the  followinfi  year  one  of  the  owners  was  lost  at  sea,  and  an 
other  left  the  country,  and  it  was  only  after  the  publication 
of  the  Award  that  the  surviving  owner  consulted  his  solid- 


.i 


t 


loraiMl  wiiM  liifornud  Hint  In-  liiul  a  n«»"»<l  <>»'•  •■•(""•'•''•'  ••"'"» 
for  coiiiiM-iiKjitlon.  The  <liiim  wiim  then  drawn  up  and  pn- 
H*-nt*'d  at  «)n('*>. 

lltT  Maji'Hl.v'M  OovfriiiinnI  iiImo  nHci'iliiiiitd  from  llw  Moli 
«UorHln  (lacHlion  llial  llic  fart  of  llu-  "Mlaik  Uianiond"  tifinj; 
Iioaitlcd  liy  till'  n-vcnuc  oltirciH  of  tin-  I'nilfd  StalcH  and  or 
drrcdont  "of  HrliriiiK  Sea  in  issti  Ih  mtt'icd  in  tiif  rrc  Ih  of 
tlit>  cuMtoni  iioUHf  at  (>nnaiaHl<a,  and  llixt  din>  la-ot"  .  'vaM 
nnido  l».v  tlic  master  of  tlic  vchhi'I     npim  llie  arrival  of  tin- 

lo       Ht-lidoner  at  Virtoria. 

rndfp  tilt'  (•irniiiiHlanirH  Her  Mnjt'Mtv'8  (iovcrniucnt  ron 
Hidored  tliat  tlie  icaHons  of  tlie  delay  were  rea><oaalde.  and 
nave  instriK'tionH  tliat  the  elaim  whonld  Ite  picNented  to  the 
rnlted  States  tiovernmepl.     loj,'etlier     witli     oilier     niniilar 
elainiH." 

I  merely  point  oat  this  and  lirinj;  it  lo  the  notice  of  the 
t'nniniiHNion  to  hIiow  that  this  riaii.!  v.,im  in  the  niost  formal 
manner  presented  lo  tlie  tioverniiieiil  of  the  I'liiled  Stales, 
and  that  the  presentation  of  that  elaim  was  never  in  any  way 

2C)  ohjeeted  to.  so  far  as  the  eorrespondenee  shows,  and  that  the 
only  olijt'ction  that  eaii  lie  made  lo  it  is,  that  it  does  not 
appear  in  the  sehediile  of  ISHIi,  and  the  view  taken  by  tin-  am- 
liassador  for  the  Kn^lish  (ioverninent  was  that  the  elaim  of 
IHHC  was  not  to  be  looked  on  as  alto|:etlier  a  separate  and  dis- 
tinct elaim,  but  as  Kiviii^  a  li^lit  to  further  eompensation  in 
respect  to  the  "Mlack  IMamond."  Now,  liavinu  made  these 
remarks  as  to  the  state  of  the  facts,  let  us  refer  to  the  actual 
Convention  that  we  have  before  us.  and  see  whether  my 
learned  friend  can  altop-ther  lay  down  the  hard  and  fast  rule 

30  lie  has  laid  down.  I  will  refer  Hist  to  the  tindin;;  of  fact  on 
pafie  11  and  what  is  that  tindinn  of  fact:  "The  followiii}; 
table  shows."  now  mark  exactly  what  it  does  show,  "the 
names  of  the  Itritish  sealing;  vessels  seized  or  whi'IkmI  by 
I'nlted  States  revenue  cruisen't.  l.'«iS(»-l.S!Mt.  and  the  approxi- 
mate distance  from  land  when  seixed.'  The  distances  assigned 
in  the  cases  of  the  "t'aroleiia."  "Thornton."  and  "Onward." 
are  im  the  authority  of  the  I'niled  Stales  naval  commander 
"so  and  so."  "the  distance  assijfiied"  in  tlie  other  cases  are  so 
and  so.    Now.  if  your  Htmoms  will  remark  that  there  was  a 

•^°  clear  distinction  as  to  tlie  liiiiin.  the  niinies  of  the  vess«'ls 
seized  b«'tween  certain  dates  that  is  all  they  considered  ma- 
terial. an<l  the  distance  from  laiul  at  which  the  seizures  or 
warning  took  place.  If  it  had  been  intended  that  the  <  laiiiis 
should  de]ieiid  on  the  statements  of  the  dates,  you  would  have 
found  in  that  liendinj;  of  "Annex  <'"  the  fiii-ther  statement 
that  they  found  not  only  their  names  and  tli«  places  where 
they  were  seized,  but  also  the  dates  on  which  they  were 
seized. 

5"  The  r'oinmissitmer  on   the  part  of  the   United  States: — It 

niipears,   Mr.   Peters,  that   in   this   statement,     two     vessels' 
names  ap]iear  twice. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  am  coniinf;  to  that  In  a  moment.  My 
learned  friend  lias  inadvertently  fallen  into  an  error  in  re- 
nard  to  some  <»f  those  ships;  he  has.  for  instance,  taken  a 
ship  twice,  and  he  says  the  "Triumph"  was  seized  in  ISS", 
and  also  was  seized  in  ISSII;  m;*  learned  friend  is  in  error 
there,  I  know  unwittingly,  but  as  a  matter  of  fact,  the  "Tri- 
60  umph"  of  1H87  and  the  "Triumph"  of  1SS!>  were  two  distinct 
vessels  with  diffenMit  owners. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — TIow  about  the  "Pathfinder?"' 

Mr.  Peters:— The  "Patlitinder."  as  a  matter  of  fact  is  stat- 
ed twice,  and  as  a  matter  of  fact,  the  second  claim  with  re- 
gard to  'the  "Pathfinder"  is  a  seizure  of  clearly  a  separate 
and  distinct  nature;  it  is  not  the  same  class  of  a  seizure;  it 
was  not  made  on  the  lii^li  sens.       It  is  a  different  class  of 


30 


claims  from  any  t-lainiH  incutiuntMl  before.  He  mentions 
a^ain  thai  tlie  "Alfred  Adams"  and  the  "Lily"  api»ear  twiee. 
Vet.  it  apjH'urs  I  believe  that  tlu-  "Alfred  Adams"  after- 
wards clianjjed  her  name  and  beeam«>  the  "Lily."  but  I  do 
not  imagine  that  the  )H>o])le  who  had  the  making  of  the 
Treaty  had  any  knowledp'  of  that  faet.  She  was  owned  as 
a  maltei-  of  fact,  by  dilTerent  parlies  at  the  lime.  and.  so  far 
as  known  to  the  Hritish  liovernment,  was  an  entirely  dilfer 

to  ciii  ship,  and  it  would  never  strike  <me  at  lirst  thought  that 
the  ship  which  ajtiK-ared  in  ISS"  as  the  "Alfred  Adams" 
should  appear  in  ISS!)  as  the  "Lily."  II  is  a  fact  jtrobably  not 
known  to  either  party,  so  that  my  learned  friend's  arj;ument 
as  to  the  particularity  with  which  the  schedule  has  beta 
drawn  out  fails  when  we  tind  thai  in  the  lirsl  case  there  were 
two  "Triumidis,"  and  in  the  "rathtlnder"  case  the  seizure 
made  in  1S!I0  was  a  dilferent  class  of  seizure  altojiether,  and 
when  we  tiud  that  the,  other  is  a  simple  change  of  name,  as 
lo  whidi  no  pers<m  would  be  s\ipposed  to  look,  1  call  atten- 

23  ti(m  to  the  fact  that  tin-  thinj^s  they  state  they  lind  are  the 
names  «tf  the  vessels  and  nothing  more.  I  niinht  further  re- 
mark on  the  question  as  to  the  particularity  with  refereuee  t » 
which  tluse  claims  ap]H'ar  to  have  be<>n  mentioned  in  the 
scluHlule,  that  whether  it  was  ri^'ht  to  do  so  or  wrou};  with 
retjard  to  the  case  of  the  "Tathtinder'  iM'fore  the  I'aris  Tri- 
bunal, separate  cases  for  the  "I'athlinder"  had  In-en  put  in, 
and  ther(>fore  they  found  the  schedule  and  Untk  it  as  it  was, 
and  the  same  with  regard  to  tlu'  other  cases  nu'ulioned,  and 
the  same  with  n-f^ard  to  the  "Triunii>h;"  of  coiirso  they  had  to 
be  si'parate,  the  claims  were  put  in  by  separate  jiarties  who 
had  separate  inter«'sts.  and  they  could  not  by  any  possibility 
all  be  put  in  oik*. 

Now.  if  you  will  r«'fer  to  the  article  of  the  Couveution,  un 
der  which  we  are  sitting,  then  see  what  is  sui»poscd  to  be  re- 
ferred: "The  hifih  contracting  parties  ajrree  that  all  claims," 
the  words  used  are  "all  claims,"  "on  account  of  injuries  si-t* 
tained  by  persons  in  whose  behalf  (ireat  Hritain  is  entitled 
lo  claim  compeusiition  from  the  I'nited  States  and  arisin<; 
by  virtue  of  the  treaty  aforesaid,  the  award  and  tindin^'s  of 
the  said  Tribunal  of  .\rbitration,  as.  also  the  additional 
claims  specifie*!  in  the  Ttth  paragraph  of  the  preamble  here- 
to, shall  be  referred  to  two  t'ommissioners.  one  of  whom 
shall  be  appointed  by  the  I'resich'ut  of  the  I'liited  State's,  and 
the  other  by  Her  Hritannic  Majesty,  awl  each  of  whmn  shall 
be  learned  in  the  law.  Ajtpended  to  this  ('(uivention  is  a 
list  of  the  claims  intended  to  be  referred." 

The  startinj,'  idea  of  that  clause  was  that  all  claims  should 
be  referred.  \ow,  niy^ learned  friend  says  that  that  is  to  be 
limited  to  a  very  tiU'At  extent  and  that  it  is  to  be  only  the 
claims  referred  to  in  Hie  schedule.  1  say  that  wlu'ii  you 
come  to  I  hat  scIumIuIc  you  ouj;hl  to  ffive  it  the  broadest  ]i(ts- 
sible  construction  lo  carry  out  the  meaning  of  the  partii's. 
You  will  find,  when  you  jjet  to  that  schedule,  allhoufjh  it  pur- 
])oi'led  to  be  something  like  a  cojty  of  the  tindin^s  of  fact  of 
llie  I'aris  Tribunal,  it  is  not  a  (•(unplete  copy  ov  anythin;;  li'" 
it.  It  is  headed  "Appendix  of  Claims  submilled  lo  llu'  Tribu 
nal  <»f  a  bit  ration  at  I'aris."  It  states  the  names  of  vessels, 
dales  of  seizure,  apiu'oximate  distances  and  the  vessels  lli.it 

go  seized  llieni;  it  omits  a  veiy  impoi-tant  part,  the  amoiiir  .  ;  ; 
not  in  any  way  staled.  Of  coin-se  llie  claims  thai  were  sub- 
milled  lo  the  Tribunal  of  .\rbitration  of  I'aiis  included  not 
only  lliose  slatemenls,  but  also  llu>  statement  of  the  amounls. 
Now.  when  this  says,  ".\ppendix  <if  t'laims,  ("laiiiis  submilled 
lo  the  Tnbiinal  al  I'aiis,"  thai  is  merely  a  headint;;  it  is  not 
intended  lo  control  what  follows,  because  as  a  mailer  of  fact, 
it  is  not  a  slatemeiit  of  claims  submilled  lo  the  Tribunal  at 
I'aris.  It  does  not  slate  the  amount.  What  il  was  intend- 
ed lo  be  was  a  cojiy  of  the  Undines  of  fad.  that  is  all  il  was 
inleiHled  to  be.      Il  is  luit  a  statement  of  claims,  and  I  submit 


40 


50 


29 


to 


K) 


30 


40 


50 


63 


llijit  the  intention  <»f  tlw  pnHics  was  that  tliis  was  8ini]>l,v 
locilicd  upon  as  a  finding  of  fact.  Tlio  material  jwiint  to  Iti' 
Blatfd  is  the  nauK'  of  tlic  ship,  and  tin-  fad  tliat  slic  was 
s('i/,<'d;  a  niistaivf  in  tlio  nann'  of  tlic  vc'ssci  that  soizcd  iici' 
woiihl  not  allVct  tlu'  ri<,'ht  of  tliis  Tribnnal  to  lioar  tlic  caso. 
Snj)pos<'  it  appears  now  before  this  Tribnnal  that,  as  a  mat 
ter  of  faet,  the  dates  of  seiznre  are  wronji:,  bnt  the  name  of 
the  vessel  was  fjiven,  and  it  also  appeared  that  the  claim  had 
been  made,  wonld  this  Tribnmil  serionsly  e«Hisider  the  faet 
whetlur  they  had  jnrisdiction  to  hear  the  ease  becanse  in  the 
schedule  of  the  ('onvention  there  had  been  a  mistake  or  a 
total  omission  of  the  date,  if  the  real  facts  connected  with 
the  case,  tlu'  mime  of  the  case,  the  fac^t  of  the  seizure,  and 
the  name  of  the  vessel  which  had  seized  her,  were  actually 
!=tated  and  brou<;ht  before  the  < Convention.  Xow,  if  you  take 
the  words  of  the  pr(>ambh>  to  tlw  (Convention,  yon  will  also 
ihid  that,  "Whereas,  in  view  of  the  said  findinffs  of  fact,  and 
of  the  decision  of  the  Tribunal  of  Arbitration  concernin}; 
the  jurisdictional  rights  of  the  I'nited  States  in  Itehrinfj  Sea, 
and  the  ri>;ht  of  protection  of  j)roperty  of  the  I'nited  States 
in  the  fur  seals  frt'cinentina;  the  islands  of  the  I'nited  States 
an<l  Hehrin^  Sea.  the  tSovernnient  of  the  I'nited  States  is 
d(  sirous  that  in  so  far  as  its  liability  is  not  tixed  and  deter 
mined  by  the  tindin^s  of  fact  and  the  de<i8ion  of  said  Tri- 
bunal of  .\rbitration.  the  iiuestion  of  such  liability  should  be 
definitely  an<l  fully  settled  and  determined,  and  comjiensa- 
tiiui  made,  for  any  injunes  for  which,  in  the  confempliitiim 
of  the  Treaty  aforesaid,  and  the  Award  and  finding's  of  the 
Tribunal  of  Arbitnition  compensation  may  be  due  to  (Jroat 
Hritain   from   the  I'nited  States. 

".\nd.  wlu-reas.  it  is  clainu'd  by  (treat  Britain.  thou|^h  not 
admitted  by  the  I'nited  States,  that  jnior  to  the  said  Award 
certain  other  claims  ajjainst  the  I'nited  States  accrued 
in  favor  of  (Jreat  Hritain  on  account  of  seizurt's  of.  or  in- 
terference with,  the  following  nanu'd  British  sealing  vessels." 
Tlie  only  thing  there  c<msidere<l  material  to  state  was  the 
name,  and  they  were  carried  into  the  schedule  as  additional 
names  with  the  bald  infornuition.  ".Vdditional  Claims, 
"Wanderer,"  "Winnifred,"  "Henrietta."  "Oscar  and  TIattie." 
All  they  considered  necessary  in  the  body  of  the  Convention 
was  to  state:  "The  following  named  British  sealing  ves- 
sels." and  when  they  came  to  the  schedule  they  simply  con- 
sidered the  fact,  which  if  incorrectly  stated,  would  not  take 
away  this  court's  jurisdiction.  SupjKise  in  the  case  of  tho 
"Winnifred."  it  turned  out  that  the  interference  took  place  in 
1V!»i',  instead  of  isni.  it  being  clearly  before  the  minds  of 
the  fwo  gov«'rnments  when  they  agreed  to  that  additional 
claim,  that  the  ca.se  of  the  "Winnifred"  should  be  cimsidered. 
W()uld  it  be  argued  that  it  too!;  away  tiu'  jurisdiction  of  this 
Tribunal?  Would  not  they  .onstrne  that  schedule  as  simply 
giving,  or  att<  nipting  to  give  certain  infornuition  in  regard 
to  (he  claims  I0  be  stated,  und  cmce  they  found  in  the  sched- 
ule there  was  a  clear  statement  that  the  case  of  such  and 
such  a  vessel  was  before  the  Tribunal,  that  is  all  they  had  to 
consider. 

Xow.  the  only  authority  I  tind  necessary  to  bring  before 
this  Tribunal  is  the  case  of  llam'nstein  v.  Lynham.  reported 
in  KHI  I'nited  Stales  Suiueme  Court  Hei»oi-ts.  and  the  remark 
that  I  am  reading  is  fr(uu  page  4S7.  and  is  as  follows: 

"Where  a  treaty  admits  of  two  constructions,  one  restrict- 
ive as  t(t  the  lights  that  may  be  claini<>«l  under  it,  and  the 
other  liberil,  I  lie  latter  is  to  be  preferred."  This  cites 
Shanks  v.  !)iipont.  :?  Teters,  242.  and  the  (Jourt  adds;  "Such 
is  the  settled  rule  in  this  Court." 

Now.  then,  applying  that  rule  to  the  ipiestion  we  have  two 
coiistiuctioiis  that  I  fairly  contend,  may  be  put  on  this  sched 
I!'".  First,  tlie  strict  construction,  that  because  the  year 
1.'.S(!is  not  ti;>eiially  mentioned  In  the  schedule,  for  that'r«'a 


30 

Hon  that  claim  should  be  fxcludtMl.  That.  I  say,  is  tlic  nar- 
low  const  ruction.  The  main  thinn  to  be  slated  iu  tlie 
sclu'duh'  is  till*  name  of  tlie  vcsst'l,  tlie  dates  mentioned  in  tlio 
schedule  and  the  other  facts  ar»'  merely  information  for  the 
use  of  the  Convention;  the  name  of  the  vessel  is  the  main 
thint;  and  the  other  part  of  it  is  merely  infoniiation.  Tlie 
only  ditt'erence  betwei'n  the  claim  of  1889  and  that  of  188(>, 
so  far  as  the  "Hlack  Diamond"  is  concerned,  is  this:  The 
claim  made  for  188!>  i-omes  before  this  Tribunal  in  a  little 

lo  better  position.  In  that  we  have  the  benetit  of  the  findint; 
of  facts  with  reference  to  that  seizure  for  188!t.  The  claim 
for  1SS(!  comes  before  you  without  that  Iteiieflt.  but  with  the 
bene  lit  of  all  the  nuestions  (»f  law  decided  l<y  the  I'aris 
Triltiinal.  and  therefore  I  leave  the  matter  with  your  llonoun 
simply  upon  the  {{round  that  {jiviu}?  this  Treaty  what  it  outjlit 
lo  have,  a  broad  construction,  the  main  tliiu};  to  be  jjiveu  is 
the  name  of  the  vessel;  when  that  is  nanuKl  it  is  really  befori> 
this  ("onvi'iition.  There  is  stated  in  the  <'<uivention  the  fol 
lowing:  "Personal   Claims.   188(i."     Now.  then,   what  is  tlie 

20  claim  with  rej^ard  to  the  "Ulack  IManumd"  in  188(>?  True, 
it  is  a  claim  that  arises  out  of  certain  acts  diuie.  <ertain  words 
spoken,  or  certain  warninjts  niven  to  the  Master  of  tlio 
"Hlack  Diamond,"  and  would  I  not  be  rijibt  in  claiming;  that 
the  claim  of  the  "Ulack  Diamond"  is  proi  "n,s  .'  personal 
claim,  and  therefore  distinctly  mention- d  iii  'i  Ccmvention 
under  "Personal  Claims.  188(J"?  Tm  a  !!i  a  out  the 
.  claim  we  put  in.  for  the  sake  of  convei'.iv'hi',  r!uu  this  is  one 
arisinj;  out  of  certain  acts  done  to  the  "HLuk  Diamond"';  but 
the  effect   is  that   the  daiiiap'  which    arose    liy    reason    of 

;!0  the  warning  out  of  the  "Hhuk  Diamond  in  188(!,  is  in  every 
respect  a  personal  claim — which  can  be  made  by  a  person, 
and  therefore  is  included  even  to  the  strict  construction.  I 
say  that  this  fully  comes  within  the  terms  of  the  Ccmvention. 
1  do  not  think  it  will  be  necessary  for  me  to  detain  the  Com- 
uiissicuiers  any  lonj;er  uprui  this  point.  The  matter,  as  has 
already  been  stated,  is  ini]iortant  with  rejjard  to  this  partic- 
ular claim,  lu-cause  the  {;rantin}<;  of  this  motion  means  that 
this  claim,  if  it  be  a  meritorious  one.  is  entirely  withdrawn 
from  the  Convention  and  the  rij^hl  jtractically  jjone  forever, 

40  because  I  assume,  and  I  think  I  am  rijfht  in  doiiifj  so,  that 
this  is  the  last  time  for  the  presentation  of  any  claim  that 
has  heretofore  luiseii.  Now.  these  claims  must  be  either 
dismissed  ov  allowed;  and  the  rulin>j  out  of  a  <  laim 
profc'ly  presented  to  the  Commission  really  nu'a'is 
that  that  claim.  whether  meritorious  or  ii<*,  i^ 
rilled  out  (dice  and  ftu-evei-.  I  feel  satisfied  'in ;  I'l  ;•»' 
that  the  Commissioners  will,  so  far  as  they  ca:<,  anu  w  liv  is 
their  judgment  will  allow  them,  be  astute  to  see  th.il  no 
claim  is  thrown  out.  or  not  allowed  to  be  heard  before  t     y 

5"^  Tribunal,  which,  upon  a  fair,  lu'oad  and  lilieral  c(mstrucii  m 
of  the  Convention  may  be  considered  to  be  within  the  terms 
thereof. 


Mr.  Dickinson: — A  few  brief  words  in  reply,  if  your 
Honours  please:  As  to  the  last  pro|)osition  of  my  friend, 
that  this  claim  of  the  "Hlack  Diamond"  for  188(!,  may  be 
embraced  in  the  item  "Personal  Claims."  in  ilie  schedule  at- 
tached to  the  Convention,  I  have  but  this  to  hi;.'  tlm'  the 
gQ  term  "personal  claims"  i  amed  in  the  schedule  uu'  *he  title 
of  "Claims  submitted  to  the  Tribunal  of  .X:-;  .lon  at 
Paris."  has  a  sifiiiiticatioii  of  its  own  within  the  is  '  'jM-eta 
tion  and  meaning  of  the  proc  I'dinjis  of  tiie  I'aris  : .  liuna'. 
These  claims  are  scheduled  as  liie  personal  claims  o!'  persons 
f<M'  arrest,  imprisonr  'I  or  de'eiilion,  and  your  Honours  will 
tindthem  so  scliediib  i  ihvayf.  an;!  so  referred  to  in  the  Brit- 
ish case,  pp.  1  lo  (SO  ni-'iisive,  Jiii'1  so  referred  to  by  the  Tri- 
bunal of  Arbitrati(  p.      So  iimm  !•  '  ir  that. 

My  friend  is  nov  .  ithin  the  decision  of  the  Award  of  the 


'  ,1 


J 


1^^. 


''® 


3' 


(O 


20 


30 


40 


6o 


Voiir  llonoiii-s 

'    find     ii^ainst 

fiikc     nj»     tli<' 

Hcrt'   iirc   tlic 


Paris  Trilmiiiil  when  lie  savs  that  time  i»  )iiuiiat*-rial.  The 
I'aris  Tribunal,  may  it  i)]<'a8c  your  Honours,  lias  dignified  it 
in  this  tast'  t)y  tindinf;  it  as  one  of  tlic  facts  ni-i-cssary  to  be 
found  in  its  dclihcratioiis.  and  under  its  jiowers.  Your 
Honours  are  sittinj;  liere.  laldnt;  fnan  tlie  I'aris  Triitunal  in 
res]»ect  of  tliese  mailers  liefore  you.  wiiat  lias  lieen  tliroujjh 
the  i»roeesses  of  that  Tribunal,  and  as  to  wliieli  that  Tribunal 
has  done  soniethinu.  or  W)ur  Honours  would  not  be  sitting 
here.  The  duty  was  imposed  upon  the  Tribunal  that  satTn 
I'aris  to  find  certain  facts  as  to  <'ertain  claims.  There  \a 
no  doubt  about  tlial.  and  your  Hotiours  liave  imitosed  upon 
you  the  duty  to  take  uj)  the  findings  of  fa<t  of  the  I'aris  Tri- 
bunal, go  on  and  lind  another  (|U)-stion.  to  wit.  the  liability  of 
the  I'nited  Slates  upon  those  findings  of  fa<t.  and.  if  liable, 
to  assess  the  damages.  Now,  let  me  ask  your  Honours  with 
reference  to  the  seizure  of  the  "Hlack  Diamond"  in  IMS!),  un- 
dei'  a  warning  gi\-en  by  the  collector  of  customs:  fan  your 
Honours  take  the  .\ward  of  the  Tiibiinal  of  .\rbitration.  and 
find  that  any  one  of  tliese  facts,  the  finding  of  which  was  the 
duty  imposed  ii]ion  the  I'aris  Tribunal,  was  found  as  to  the 
seizure  or  warning  of  the  "Ulack  IMamond"  in  1SS(!?  Of 
course  your  Honours  cannot  so  find, 
cannot  find  lh<'se  things  over  again,  or 
the  findings  of  the  I'aris  Tribunal,  oi- 
•  juestions  found  by  the  I'aris  Tribunal, 
findings  of  fact:  1.  Vov  the  j)urposes  of  your  Honours  they 
find  thtse  facts  to  be  true:  That  the  searches  and  seizures, 
and  so  foith.  were  made  by  the  authority  of  the  I'nited  States, 
tiovernment.  t'an  your  Hcuioiirs  lind  that  that  fact  was 
f<ninil  by  the  I'aris  Tribunal  cm  the  seizure,  oi-  on  the  warn- 
ing of  the  -niack  Hiamond'  in  1S8(;?  The  "IJlack  Diamond" 
w;is  not  before  it.  from  |»age  1  10  <>0,  inclusive,  my  friends 
admit  they  did  not  i)ut  the  "Ulack  Diamimd,"  and  the  seizure 
of  ISSti,  before  the  Tribunal.  .\re  your  Honours  in  this 
si»eciai  case.  then,  to  go  on  and  find  what  it  is  not  jtrovided 
by  the  t'onventioii  that  you  can  lind — that  the  seizure  was 
by  the  authority  of  the  Iniled  States?  That  is  not  within 
the  jtiovince  of  this  Tribunal  to  find;  that  has  already  been 
found;  and  your  Ibuimirs  are  the  high  setjuel  to  the  I'aris 
Tribunal  in  this,  that  what  it  did  not  find  your  Hcmours  are 
to  find,  and  nothing  else.  Tliat  is  the  first  finding.  Tan 
your  Honours  say  that  the  I'aris  Tribunal  found  that  the 
"Hlack  Diamond"  was  seized  by  the  authority  of  the  Tnited 
States?  They  found  nothing  at  all  about  it ;  and  the  fact 
ajipears  on  their  own  claim  that  the  warning  was  given  not 
bv  the  autiioriJy  of  the  Iiiited  States,  but  by  an  officer  who 
had  no  authority  to  give  any  warning  whatever.  Then,  as 
to  No.  1'.  another  finding  of  fact,  let  me  repeat  that,  before 
luoceeding  with  any  claim,  your'  Honours  must  look  to  the 
I'aris  Tribunal,  as  to  the  finding  of  certain  facts  as  to  that 
claim,  before  your  Fbuiours  can  proceed,  except  as  to  the  ad- 
ditional claims  whicli  are  noi  involved  here  on  this  point. 
As  to  thi»<  second  finding,  can  your  Honours  find  that  the 
"Mlack  Diamcmd"  in  1S8(;  was  seized  in  Mehring  Sea.  though 
that  is  a  seizure,  and  probably  that  would  not  bf>  material  to 
find  that  this  warning  was  made  in  IJehring  Sea,  with  the 
other  searclKs  and  seizui'es  of  vessels. 

The  third  finding  is  tliat  the  said  several  searches  and 
seizures  of  vessels,  "were  made  by  public  armed  vessels  of 
the  I'nited  States,  the  commanders  of  which  had.  at  the  sev- 
eral times  when  they  w<'re  made,  from  the  executive  depart- 
ment of  lie'  I'nited  States,  instructions,  a  copv  of  which  is 
annexed  her.'to.  marked  (M."  The  principle  involved  is 
whether  you  may  take  up  a  case  as  to  which  there  was  no 
findins;  of  fad  by  the  I'aris  Tribunal— aiiv  other  case  e.xcept 
additional  claims.  The  third  finding  was  that  the  vessel  was 
seized  by  the  commander,  who  had,  at  the  sevoral  times  when 
the  seizures  were  made,  instructioTis  from  the  executive  de* 


m 


I'i 


32 

|itirtni)>nt  of  flic  Fnilj'd  Stales,  and  your  Honours  will  find 
thill  (hilt  iipplics  to  the  "Black  Diumond/'  if  there  were  u 
seizure. 

Now.  iis  to  the  fifth  finding;,  will  .vour  Honours  find  that  the 
seizure  wiis  made,  or  committed,  In  HehriiiK  Sea  iit  the  dis- 
tiince  fr<Mii  the  shore  niiaied?  That  is  a  miiterial  findinfr, 
di^nitied  l»y  the  nij;h  Tribunal  at  Paris  as  vci'v  materiiil; 
and  if  iliey  found  tlie  exact  disttince  as  ii  fact,  is  it  not  for 
you  lli}{li  (Commissioners  to  procci'd  on  the  assessment  to 
follow,  or  the  other  <|Ueslions  (o  he  determined  by  you? 

10  The  next  I  ciill  your  a((en(ion  to  is  tlie  fourtli  fiudint;. 
"(hat  the  several  orders  mentioned  in  the  schedule  annexed 
hereto  iiiid  mtirlied  (('1.  warninjj  vessels  to  leiivo  or  not  to 
enter  lt«'hrin^  Scii  were  miide  by  luiblic  armed  vessels  of  the 
I'liited  Stiites.  the  <-omnianders  of  which  had,  at  the  sevenil 
times  wlien  they  were  };iven,  like  instructions  as  mentioned 
ill  tiiKliiif;  ;{,  and  tliiit  the  vessels  so  wiinied  wen'  enf;ii}jed 
ill  setilin^  or  jirosecntin;;  voyiiftes  for  thiit  purjMise.  and  that 
Kiich  Jiction  Wiis  ii(h>]i(ed  by  the  (iovernmeiit  of  (he  rnit«'d 
States."      (^an  you  look  into  the  Award  of  (he  Paris  Tribunal 

20  jiiid  find  (hat  tliese  fiirts  are  found,  and  conclusively  found, 
by  flic  Trilninal  before  you  ciin  proceed  with  the  iissessment 
of  daniiines  for  the  "Ulack  Difimond"  in  1SS(!?  Did  they 
fiiul  that  a  vessel  warned  her.  and  thiit  the  vessel  was  armed 
Ihiif  Wiirned  her?  Did  tliey  find  thiit  the  commander  of  (h«' 
vessel  htid  ins(  ructions  in  words  and  fi}j;iires,  as  set  out  in 
the  schedule?  (^iin  your  Ibmours  find  tluK  as  to  the  "Itlack 
Diiimoiid?"  Hecaiise  it  is  found  as  to  every tliinfj  that  (he 
Piiris  Tribuuiil  seii(  (o  tliis  Ili^li  ('ommission.  If  eiicli  is  not 
found  as  to  any  shi|),  the  ipiestioii  of  (lie  seizure  or  warning 

^'^  of  thiit  ship,  ciinnot  come  liefore  the  Ilifjli  ('ommissioners. 
And  your  Ilonoiii's  must  find,  lastly,  that  the  seizur«'  was 
adojited  by  tlie  (ioveriiiiient  of  the  I'nited  States — the  warn- 
iiifi  was  adopted  by  the  (iovernment  <»f  tlu'  I'nited  States. 
Your  Honours  cannot  find  that;  that  is  not  within  your 
Honours'  duty  or  powers  to  find  iis  to  iiny  ship  warned  in 
issd;  tliat  is  ii  matter  of  fact.  an<l  that  fact  must  com*'  down 
to  you  as  setded  by  (he  Paris  Tribiintil  iis  to  any  ship  which 
you  c;in  consider.  Oertainly  you  cannot  find  that  the  ''Hlack 
Diamond"  was  within  tlie  first  schedule  of  claims  present»Hl 

■+°  to  the  Arbitration,  because,  iis  to  those,  certain  fac(s  are 
I'ound  as  (o  which  your  Honours  iir«'  bound.  It  niiiy  have 
been  an  iidditional  claim,  because  it  comes  within  tiie  terms 
of  (h,-  preamble  of  ti  warnintf  or  seizure  made  before  (he 
Award,  and  (his  wiirninj;  iind  seizure  was  niiide  before  (he 
Award. 

Now.  my  friend  has  referred  to  certiiin  negotiiitions  be- 
tween (lie  parties.  Of  course,  if  (here  is  any  doiibi  about  con- 
st ructiiui.  (he  kind  of  c(uistru<(i<m   which  my  friend  niisi's 

,        iiii};:ht  be  used,  that  we  mifjlK  en(er  in(o  (he  ne;;otiii(ionH  that 

'  were  Iiad,  Imi(  (he  ordinary  rule  would  be.  where  (he  meaning 
is  perfectly  clear  by  the  schedule  itself,  iind  there  is  no  cpies- 
lioii  of  iiiimes  liind  this  applies  to  the  adtlitional  claim)  that 
(lie  iie<io(iiiti(iiis  could  not  be  reiid  to  iiiipoH  to  the  sclu>dule 
an  iiide|ieiideiit,  distinct  tind  pltiin  new  name.  I  think  it 
must  iippeiir  conclusively  to  your  Honours  that  this  "libick 
Diiiinoiid"  seizure  in  issti.  beiiij;  ii  sepiirate  iiml  independent 
seizure,  for  which  (here  is  a  wpanite  and  indepeiulent  claim 
for  coiii])eiisii(ioii.  ciiniiol   come  within   (he  first  part  of  the 

rto  s<  hediile  as  submitted  to  the  Paris  Tribunal,  because  there 
are  no  (iiidiiif^s  of  fact  here  from  the  Paris  Trilmnal  for  your 
Honours  to  proceed  fiom.  In  a  letter  from  His  Kxcellency. 
the  itritish  ambassador,  (o  Mr.  (iresham.  I  (ind,  as  1<»  what 
siioiild  ^o  into  iidditional  claims,  ii  number  of  cliiims  tliat  are 
not  in.  The  t  oirespoiidi-nce  y;ives  a  piimlier  i>f  cliiims  which 
do  not  ajipear  in  (he  <!onventi(ui.  For  iiisfance,  in  that  li't- 
fer.  i(  appears  (hat  (he  "Henrietta."  wliicli  is  now  named  as 
an  additional  claimant,  was  mentioned,  but  the  "Winnifred,"' 


33 


3o 


llic  'Osciir  iiiid  Hiillii'.  ■  iiiul  flit-  •■Wiindcn'r.'"  which  ai'c  in 
th<-  roiivciitiiiii  of  iiddilioniii  riaiiiis,  did  not  ii])|it'iir  in  IhiK 
lirst  |ir(ii)()siti(in  troni  Sir  .Inliini  l*iinii(t'f(il('  to  .Mr.  Grcshiiin. 
It  iippt'iircd  iiilci-  in  the  iicfidtiations,  and  in  tlic  <  oncsiHind 
(•net' hark  and  t'oilh.  The  •  I'lhick  Diamond"  was  nit'iiliom'd 
in  (lie  coiTcsiiondcncc.  and  otia-r  clainis  wciv  ini-ntioncd;  and 
finally,  cxclinlin;;  all  ollicrs.  tlicv  af-nvd  iijion  the  "Htnrit't- 
la."  the  ••Wandcicr."  the  "OHcar  and  llattic,"  and  tht'  "Wln- 
nifrcd." 

IQ  The  "Hlaik    hiai id"   was  not    pnt   in   as  an   extra   claim 

liccansc  they  undertook  to  heed  a  waininf{  from  the  collector 
of  a  jiort.  whicli  was  not  in  tin-  nalnre  of  a  warnin^^  };iven  bv 
an  armed  vessel.  Snpiiose  the  collector  of  the  port  of  San 
Francisco,  on  the  hi;;h  seas  or  any  where  else  it  pleases  him, 
ti'llsa  Hritish  vessel  that  it  cannot  tish  411  miles  off  the  coast, 
is  the  Government  of  the  rnite<l  States  to  pay  damanes  if 
that  vessel  heeds  the  \varnin>{?  I  think  not.  It  is  (jnile 
plain  that  the  "Hlack  IMamond "  was  not  intended  to  he  in 
eluded  as  she    is  not    named    in   the  schednle  of    additional 

2(j  claims,  nor  in  the  ])reamhle,  altlion^ii  she  would  come  within 
the  cliiss  descrihetl  within  the  preamble  of  vesstds  warned 
or  seized  pricn-  to  the  .\ward  of  the  Paris  Tribnnal.  .My 
learned  friend  says  that  the  position  is  not  material,  but  your 
Honours  will  see  that  the  I'aris  Tribnnal  not  only  con- 
tined  the  tinn-  bnt  they  dignified  it  by  making  it  material. 
They  (jneried  as  to  where  the  position  of  the  "Trimnidi"  was. 
when  warned,  and  laid  down  that  they  conld  not  state  hei' 
])osition.  I  submit  that  this"I{lack  IMamond"  claim  for  lSS<i 
dctes  not  come  here  as  a  cl:iim  submitted  before  the  I'aris 
Tribunal,  as  to  which  the  tiiidin^js  (d'  fact  are  stated,  an. I  it 
is  not  included  in  the  additional  <'laims  and  althon};h  it 
ai)i)ears  nejiotiations  were  had  as  I'cfrards  to  it  it  was  ex- 
cltided. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  (tf  the  Tniled  States: — 
Have  you  anything  to  say  as  lejrards  (Maim  No.  11.  .Mr.  Dick 
inson? 

.Mr.  Dickinson: — ^es.  your  Honour,  I  will  present  my  re- 
40  marks  with  re};ar<l  to  it.  It  appeals  in  this  case  that  a  claim 
lor  jiersonal  (lamages  is  added  in  respect  of  .lames  (landiii. 
Now,  the  tindiufi  of  the  I'aris  Tiibunal  carefully  limits  the 
claims  for  damages  in  cases  of  si  i/jires  to  the  several  arrests 
mentioned  in  the  schedule  of  the  Uritisli  cas;i,  which  ai'e  set 
out  from  jiajie  1  to  pajie  (Id  inclusive.  I  n-ad  fnun  the  find 
iufi' of  fact  of  the  I'aris  Tribuntil,  to  be  found  at  patfe  !t  of  the 
.\ppendix  prepared  by  my  leariieil  fiiend.  Then  they  pro- 
ceed to  find  the  fads  necessary  to  be  founr  under  the  duty 
imposed  on  them  with  respect  to  tlu'  liability  of  the  I'nited 
50  States,  as  tliey  do  in  the  case  of  the  seizure  of  vessels.  lu 
the  Uritisli  case,  from  pages  1  lo  litt  inclusive,  which  is  iden- 
tified by  No.  1  of  the  lindings  of  fact  by  the  I'aris  Tribninil, 
your  Ihmours  will  find  th,"  personal  claims  ar(>  always  called 
"personal  claims,"  and  scheduled  and  recapitulated  together. 
Then  we  also  find  the  personal  claims  scheduled  at  page  14 
of  the  pi-esent  ( "mivention.  This  same  term,  "perscmal 
i-laims,"  before  the  I'aris  Trilninai,  had  been  applied  to  the 
claims  for  arrests  in  l.-isd.  scheduled  by  themselves,  and  also 
in  1S87,  schedided  by  themselves.  Now  in  .\rticle  I.  of  the 
60  findings  of  fact  tlu-  claim  of  .lames  liaudin  does  not  appear. 
There  is  no  fimling  of  fact  as  to  it.  and  it  is  not  sent  down 
here  was  a  finding  of  fact.  Hereloore  the  personal  (daims. 
frmu  the  beginning  of  the  I'aris  Tribunal  up  to  the  filing  of 
these  separate  cases  by  my  learned  friend,  had  always  been 
presented  together  as  sejiar.ite  claims,  but  he  has  explained 
to  me  that  for  the  sake  of  convenience  land  I  ajipriive  of  iti 
he  has  attached  to  each  claim  for  (he  ship  the  personal  claim 
for  damages  of  the  men  ariesied  on  the  slii|i.  1  ijuite  agree 
3 


iw 


lO 


34 

that  for  the  jturpoM*'  of  tiikiiifj  h'slimony  that  wsib  far  bottor, 
iH'cauHe  the  raw  can  be  closfd  ax  to  tlic  personal  claim  for 
dama^t'H  at  the  time  that  the  caHc  of  the  warning  or  Hcizure 
of  the  ship  is  closed.  This  claim.  1  repeat,  is  not  one  of  the 
|M>r8onal  chiimH  mheduled  iu  th«'  Convention.  It  ix  not  a 
case  which  couies  down  here  from  the  Paris  Tribunal.  It  is 
not  identitied  as  a  claim  before,  the  I'aris  Tribunal  as  to 
which  there  is  any  tindiu^  of  facts  by  that  Tribunal. 

The  Cununissioner  ou  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — As 
I  understand  you.  this  case  hh  lirought  in  is  not  mentioned 
in  the  British  case  from  pages  I  to  (id  inclusive. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — It  is  not  there,  sir.  and  as  to  it,  therefore, 
there  is  no  finding  of  the  Paris  Tribunal. 

Mr.  Keique: — At  the  suggestion  of  my  learned  friend,  Mr. 
Peters,  I  will  answer  tJu>  argtiment  made  by  my  learned  ad- 
versary in  connectiim  with  this  particular  motion.  If  I  un- 
derstand his  contention  aright,  the  motion  rests  on  the  as- 

20  sumption  that  your  Honours  have  no  ]»ower  to  find  any  facts 
that  were  not  found  by  the  Tribunal  of  Paris.  If  I  rea''  ;or 
rectly  the  terms  of  the  Convention  I  think  it  will  l)e  very  asv 
t»>  show  that  this  ccmtention  cannot  be  sustaine<l.  At  page 
12  we  find  it  there  recited  in  the  preamble  of  (he  Itehring 
H«'a  t'laims  «'onvention: 

"Whereas,  by  a  Treaty  between  Her  Majesty  the  Queen  of 
the  I'nited  Kingdom  of  (Sreat  Itritaiii  au«i  Ireland,  and  tli« 
United  States  of  Ameri<'«,  signed  at  Washingtcm  on  Febru- 
ary 2yth.  18i>i;,  tlu'  ((uestions  which  luul  arisen  betwe«'n  their 

30  respective  (iovernments,  concerning  the  jurisdiction  of  rights 
\>f  the  I'nited  States  in  the  waters  of  the  Hehring  Sea.  and 
concerning  also  the  preservation  of  the  fur  seal  in.  <»r  habit- 
ually resorting  thereto,  the  said  sea.  and  the  rights  of  tlip 
citizens  and  sujects  of  either  country,  as  regards  the  taking 
of  ftirseal  in.  or  hal)itually  resorting  to.  the  said  waters,  were 
Bubmitt»*d  to  a  Tribunal  of  Arttitration  as  therein  constitut- 
ed." 

That  is  the  only  thing  that  was  submitted  to  this  Tribunal. 
Then  take  the  second  paragraph;  it  says: 

<^o  "And  whereas  tlu'  agent  of  tireat  Itritain  did.  in  accord- 
ance with  the  provisions  of  tlie  said  Article  VIII..  suluuit 
to  the  Tribunal  of  .\rl)it  ration  certain  findings  of  fact,  which 
were  agreed  to  as  proved  l»y  llie  agent  of  (he  I'nited  States. 
and  the  arbitrators  did  unanimously  find  the  facts  so  set 
f<»rth  to  be  true,  as  appears  l»y  the  Award  of  the  Triiuinal 
rend«'red  on  the  l.'tth  day  of  August.  18!»;{. 

And  wheivas  in  view  of  the  said  findings  of  fact,  and  of  the 
decision  of  the  Triluinal  of  .\rl»itration  concerning  the  juris- 
dictional rights  of  the  I'nited  Stales     in     Itehring  Sea.  and 

50  the  rights  of  protection,  or  properly  of  the  I'nited  States  in 
the  fur  seals  fi-e<|Uenting  the  islands  of  the  Inited  States 
in  Itehring  Sea,  the  (JovtM-nmcnt  of  the  I'nited  Stales  is  de 
sirous  that,  in  so  f;ir  as  its  lialnlity  is  not  already  fix'd  and 
determined  by  the  findings  of  fact  and  the  decision  of  sai«i 
Tribunal  of  Arltitrat.!;u.  the  ipiestion  of  suih  liability  should 
be  definitely  and  fully  settled  and  determine*!,  and  <ompen- 
sati«:n  made  for  any  injuries  for  which,  in  the  contemplation 
of  the  Treaty  aforesaid,  and  the  Award  and  findings  of  the 
Triltunal  of  Arbitration.  comj)ensati<m  mav  l»e  due  to  tireat 

OQ    Uritain  from  the  I'nited  States." 

If  I  properly  interpret  this  part  of  the  Convention  it  means 
that  both  parties  were  at  lilM'rty  before  the  Paris  Tribunal 
to  submit  questions  of  fact  to  that  Tribunal.  Hut  because 
these  facts  were  found  it  did  not  limit  the  parlies  under  this 
Convention,  nor  did  it  limit  your  Honours  to  the  facts  there- 
in found.  f>f  course,  I  admit  that  your  Honours  are  not  al- 
lowed to  find  any  facts  in  cas<'s  in  which  the  facts  hav<'  be<'n 
fovitid  by  the  Paris  Tribunal,  luit  the  governing  element  ia 


35 

this  ronveiition  is  tliut  full  coniMniBation  should  be  awarded 
from  the  facts  as  found.  In  inswer  to  the  questions  from 
No.  1  to  No.  5,  which  we  find  ori  page  U  of  this  Appendix,  Ar- 
ticle VI.  says: 

"In  deciding  the  matters  submitted  to  the  arbitnitors,  it 
is  agreed  that  tlie  following  five  points  shall  be  submitted  to 
them,  in  order  tliat  their  award  shall  embrace  a  distinct  de- 
cision upon  each  of  said  five  points,  to  wit:  1.  What  exdu 
sive  jurisdiction  in  the  Sea,  now  Icnown  as  the  Behring  Sea, 

lo  and  what  exclusve  rights  in  the  seal  fisheries  therein,  did 
Itussia  assert  and  exercise  prior  and  up  to  the  time  of  tlie 
session  of  Alaska  to  the  United  States.*' 

I  need  not  read  these  five  questions,  but  the  answers  to 
thepe  (luestions  vere  the  basis  of  the  respimsibility  of  Vm 
I'nited  States  towards  (ireat  Britain;  and  it  is  for  tlie  jiur- 
l)ose  of  ascertaining  tlie  amount  of  tliat  responsibility  that 
the  present  Tribunal  has  been  formed.  I,  therefore,  say 
that  if  the  facts  have  been  ascertained  at  Paris,  this  Tribu- 
nal is  not  allowed  to  make  any  finding  of  facts.     This  Tribu- 

20  nal  is  bound  by  the  facts  then  found.  But  I  ssxy  that  if  ther*> 
exists  any  claim,  so  that  full  compensation  may  be  awarded 
this  Tribunal  is  at  perfect  liberty  to  make  itself  any  finding 
of  facts.  That  is  perfectly  evident  from  "^he  fact  that  addi- 
ticmal  claims  to  tlie  number  of  four  or  five  have  been  allowed 
under  this  Convention.  There  were  no  facts  found  at  Paris 
so  far  as  the  "Winnifred,"  for  instance,  is  concerned.  There 
was  no  finding  of  facts  so  far  as  the  "Sayw.ard"  case  is  con- 
cerned, and  this  Commission  is  surely  entitled  and  empower- 
ed and  instructed  to  find  the  facts  as  far  as  these  are  con- 

30  cerned.  I  say  that  the  terms  of  this  Convention  aiH»  of  the 
broadest  possible  kind.  The  object  of  the  Convention  is  to 
ascertain  the  damages  that  have  been  suffered,  so  that  full 
compensiition  may  be  granted  liy  the  United  States  to  Great 
Britain.  There  is  nothing  in  the  Convention  itself  that  can  lim- 
it its  terms  in  the  seune  indicate<i  by  my  learned  friend.  On 
the  <'<»airary,  when  they  come  to  refer  to  the  personal  claims 
in  the  ( 'onvention,  they  are  referred  to  in  a  general  way. 
There  was  no  reference  made  to  the  prsonal  claims  as  far  as 
names  are  concerned,  and  my  learned  friend's  contention  in 

''°  the  other  cases  could  not  be  borne  out  at  all  in  the  present 
case.  The  only  reference  made  was  to  designate  them  under 
the  head  of  the  personal  claims  in  1.SS0  and  1887,  but  no  ref- 
erence whatever  is  made  to  the  fact  that  these  iK*rsonal 
claims  amounted  to  a  certain  sum,  or  that  these  personal 
claims  were  intended  to  cover  tlie  demands  of  A,  li  or  C.  We 
therefore  claim  that  under  the  tenns  of  the  Convention  lliis 
claim  is  properly  filed.  Now,  I  call  your  Honours  attention 
to  the  letter  of  Sir  Julian  Pauncefote  to  Mr.  Oresham  of  the 
7th  of  June,  1894,  to  which  my  friend,  Mr.  Peters,  has  also 

'  referred.  That  letter  is  printed  in  the  documents  which 
have  been  i)ut  before  the  Commission.  Tlie  reference  made 
to  the  present  claim  is  as  follows: 

ADA.  r        ■       i!       :  "  ' 


"Claim  of  the  Master,  Captain  Qaudin,  for  personal  loss 
and  damage,  f3,000. 

"This  claim  was  by  a  mistake  on  the  part  of  the  agent  .of 
60  the  owner  of  the  "Ada"  not  included  when  the  other  claims 
in  connection  with  this  vessel  were  entered.  Captain  Gau- 
din  thought  that  it  had  been  so  included,  and  it  was  only  on 
seeing  the  printed  list  of  the  British  claims  that  he  discover- 
ed that  such  was  not  the  case.  He  at  once  requested  that 
tiie  omission  might  be  rectified  and  his  claim  added  to  the 
list,  and  Her  Majesty's  Oovernment,  after  causing  an  enquiry 
to  be  made  into  the  circumstances  of  the  case,  decided  that 
bis  application  should  be  granted.    Captain  Guudiu's  claim 


■'T 


^S 


&a 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


3<'' 

luiH  iicfoidiiinlv  bfi'ii  )hIcI<'»I  to  llic  sclicdnlc  of  llit-  cliiim^  <'U- 
Icrt'd  witli  rt'sjM'cl  to  tin-  scliooiiff  "  Atlsi." 

When  this  was  tiiiiisinillnl  lo  llii'  Initfil  Slati's  (iitvfrn 
iiH'iit  no  cxrcplioiiH  wlialfvci-  wfif  taken  lo  il.  As  lias  alnatlv 
licMi  stalMl.  wlicn  I  111-  nc<iolialions  tor  I  In-  pavnicni  ol  a  liiniii 
snni  look  jilacc.  il  was  liiti'iidcd  llial  llic  lmn|»  sum  sliould 
inchidc  Ihc  claini  of  Hit-  "Ada"  as  wi  II  as  llic  otlii-r  clainis; 
llicrct'<n-t'.  il  is  prrl'trll.v  plain,  from  all  that  lias  pa-scd  lit-forc 
the  ("oiivcnlioii.  in  the  nrfiolialioiis  IicIwimmi  tin-  iwo  (lovi-rn- 
iiM'iits.  and  in  the  atlion  of  the  I'liilcd  Stales  (iovfrnnifnl 
in  dealing  with  tlM'sc  clainiN.  as  far  as  llic  lump  sum  was  con- 
(•t'l-ncd — it  is.  I  sa.v.  pcrftM  tlv  plain  that  this  claim  of  Taptain 
(iaiidin  was  to  foiin  part  of  ihc  compensation  that  was  to  lie 
jiaid.  If  a  1imiii>  sum  of  moiiev  had  been  paid  In  IIh-  (nited 
States  i'aptain  (iandin's  cla'iii  would  have  formed  part  of  il. 
and  he  would  have  lieeii  entitled  to  a  share  of  the  distribu- 
tion. Excejit  we  can  find  that  when  the  parties  came  to  pre- 
pare this  Convention  thev  had  departe<l  from  what  had  pre- 
ceded, and  came  to  the  conclusi<in  that  this  claim  should  not 
form  jtart  of  the  claims  that  were  to  be  iuvestijiated.  I  sa.v 
that  the  iiMilion  of  niv  learned  friend  cannot  be  sust.iined. 
The  words  of  the  Convention  ai<'  in  the  broadest  possilile 
lau}{ua>;e.  ••|iersonal  claims"  beini;  merely  r<'feri-ed  to  in  a 
general  wav  as  desittnaled  by  the  year  in  which  they  arose. 
and  Ihev  are  not  limited  in  any  way  to  the  personal  claims 
as  filed  before  the  I'aris  Tribunal. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  Inited  Stales: — l>o 
you  think  we  have  jiirisdiclion  over  any  possible  claims  for 
these  two  years.  ISSIJ  and  1s,s7» 

Ml.  |{ei(|ue: — Y«'s.  yotir  [loiiour.   I  think  you  have. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  rnited  States: — I 
only  put  the  (|ueslion  as  a  test.  Do  you  think  thai  under  a 
fair  construction  of  the  Convention  we  wduld  have  juiis<lic- 
tion  over  all  possible  claims  as  existing  tor  these  two  years? 

Mr.  |{ei(|Ue: — N  (  s.  your  Ihuioiir. 

Th'  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  Cniied  States: — Tak- 
in;;:  the  whole  Convention  altojiclher.  would  we  have  juris- 
diction over  clainis  for  the  year  1S><,'>;? 

.Mr.  I'.eiqiie: — I  lliiiik  that  the  jurisdiciion  is  limited  to 
these  Iwo  years.  ISSli  and  l.ssT.  as  far  as  the  personal  claims 
are  concerned.  The  terms  -if  the  C<invenlion  are  most  pre- 
cise on  that,  and  tlier<'  is  nothing  to  the  contrary.  For  in- 
stance, we  cannot  be  allowed  to  prcfei-  clainis  in  respect  of 
\essels  that  were  seized  in  l.'^IM  or  IS'.CJ.  We  >.ouhl  not  be 
entitled  lo  prefer  any  claims  for  these  years.  I  desire  to  call 
your  Honours'  attention  av:aiii  to  the  leller  of  Sir  •lulian 
I'auiicetole.  of  date  .lime  the  "ill.  1S!I4.  and  to  impress  upon 
yoiii'  ilonours  the  fact  that  he  set  fiirtli  this  iiarticiilar  vlaiin 
of  .binies  (iaiidin  and  writes  a  personal  enclosure  with  re^rard 
to  it. 

.Mr.  IMckinson: — 1  desire  lo  make  one  reference  to  that  let- 
ter written  by  Sir  .lulian  i'aunci  fote  10  Mr.  tJreshain.  In 
enclosure  IKi  he  spi-aks  of  the  claim  of  the  Master.  <"aptain 
C-audin.  for  personal  loss  and  damage.  V^'.tl'l'K  but  in  the  i-cn- 
eral  schediih*  he  puts  in  this  claim  with  tli<'  other  claims  that 
he  desires  to  a(bl.  as  "K.xtra  for  the  '.\da.' "  I  would  like  to 
ask  my  leai'iied  friends  on  the  other  si<le  if  they  iiave  the  re- 
])\\  of  .Mr.  (iresham? 

.Mr.  I'eters: — Yes. 

.Mr.  nickinson: — The  jioint  I  desire  to  make  is  that  this 
claini  of  .Mr.  (landin.  which  it  is  now  sought  to  eliminate 
from  the  claini  of  the  •'.\(hi."  was  presented  precisely  as  the 


10 


3; 

I'liiiin  tor  iIh'  "Ithnk    hiaiiH.nil"  iiiiil   (lir  (illit'i-  t-xlra   rliiiiiis 
wtTc  prt'Hriitcd.      II   WHS  pifsciilcd  itrt'cist'l.v  iiH  tin-  rliiiiii  for 
iIh"  "lit  niifiiji"  iiiid  ilif  ".liiiiiiiiii"  iind  llic  "(l»«ar  iiiid  IliH 
lie,"  wliirli  iii'i-  |iul   ill  iiH  •;:i-iit'riil  claiiUM. 

TIk' ('oiniiiissioiitT  oil  llic  i»ar(   of  Her  Maj<'stv: — We  will 
coiisidci-  tlicsc  iiiotioiis. 

Tlif  roiiiiiii»Nioii(  Ts    (Iit'ii    a»ljoiirn<-(l     iinlil     liaif-jiaHl     Ion 
o'i'loi  h  oil   .Monday  iiioniin^. 


20 


30 


40 


lO 


60 


Commissioners   under  the  Convention  of  February  8,  1896,  between 
Great  Britain  and  the  United  States  of  America- 
Chambers  of  the  Legislative  Assembly, 

At  Victoria,  November  30,  1896. 

At  10:;{(l  A.M.  tlu'  ConiniissioiicrH  took   tlu'ir  st'iitH. 

Tlic  (ViiiniisNiomT  on  tlic  jmrt  of  Her  .Majesty  iTlicrc  is  an 
adtlilional  iiilc  that  Wf  llioii^lil  |M'i'liaiis  nii^lit  Ix'  made  oh 
vialiii^  the  iit'tcssity  of  foinial  adjoiuninciits  fioiii  day  to 
day;  the  Commissioners  siiii]*ly  rising;  at  the  conclusion  of 
business  to  resume  their  seats  tlie  n<'.\t  day.  ordinarily  at  the 
hour  named.       The  rule  would  he  in  the  following;  terms: 

"The  sittings  of  the  ('ommissioners  shall  he  deeme«l  to  l»u 
always  open,  and  in  the  case  of  formal  adjoniiiment  may  be 
resumed  at  any  time  duriii};  the  continuan<-e  of  such  adjourn- 
iiieiir.  upon  notice  to  the  counsel." 

.Mr.  Dickinson: — \\'e  have  aiti'eed  so  far  as  ciuinsel  is  c(»n- 
cerned.  to  an  a<lditioii  to  Uule  live,  accept ing  the  sujip'stion 
of  your  Lordship  as  to  an  amendment  of  that  rule.  The  ad- 
dition to  t'le  rule  would  read: 

"If  eitlier  i)arty  thus  transfers  any  part  of  the  testimony  of 
any  one  of  its  »)wn  witnesses,  relating  to  any  matter  as  to 
which  such  witness  has  not  been  cross-examined,  such  party. 
on  the  re«piest  of  the  otiier  party,  and  by  the  dinntion  of 
either  t'cunmissioner.  shall  j)roduce  such  witness  in  the  case 
to  which  such  testimony  is  1ransferre«l,  for  cross-examina- 
tion in  reference  thereto." 

That  is  the  first  sujJtpestion  as  originally  i)repared  by  your 
Honour,  Commissioner  Putnam,  with  the  suggestion  of  yonr 
Lordship  added. 

Tlie  Commissioner  on 
parlies  ajjri'e  to  that? 


the  part  of  Her   Majesty: — Do  both 


.Mr.  Peters: — Ves.  as  an  addition  to  Uule  tive, 


Majesty:— The  See- 
ls tliei'e  anything 


e    we    liave   been     expeditious     within 
the  iiile  in  the  preparation  of  our  re- 


Tlie  Commissioner  on  the  pint  of  lb 
rctary   will   iiicorptnale  il    in   I  lie   riih-s 

llll'lhei'.  ji(  ntlellicn? 

.Mr.    Dickinson:— Will 
tile  lime  fiivcn  iis  niidei 

lilies,  we  have  been  somewhat  disappoiiited  in  the  return  of 
our  mannscrip!  and  piool's  from  liie  printer,  and  we  have 
only  seven  of  the  cases  iicliiMJly  sent d  and  filed,  and  two 
under  motion.  The  printer  promises  to  be  very  expi-ditious 
today  and  we  expe.i  to  have  them  all  in.  I  uiKh-rstand 
that  my  learned  friend  Mr.  Peters  can  go  on  with  some  select- 
ed case. 

.Mr.   Peters:— 1    think   tl xact    number  of  the  replies  we 

ha^e  recei .  ed   refers  to  only  seven  cases;  being  the  cases  of 
■acliial  sei/iire,  beginning  with  the  lirst  of  such  cases  and  tak- 
ing  several   others.       The   jileading  in    that    necessitates   us 


:f 


Hi 


38 

|)UttiiiK  in  a  v»>r.v  Hliort  n'ply,  wliifh  n'ply  w«'  linvc  drafted 
now  and  will  b<>  abl(>  to  ;;iv(>  my  h>nrn«>d  fri«'nd  tiiiH  rvonint;. 
Wo  will  Im'  H'ad.v  v«t.v  Hoon  to  no  on  with  tlu'  trial  of  caiw 
ninnbcr  on«>.  We  arc  practically  ready  now.  Wc  propoHo 
io  take  tlic  caw  of  tlic  'Tarolcna,"  and  pcrliapn  my  learned 
friend  will  lake  this  aH  notice  that  thi«  will  be  the  tirHt  caHO. 

Mr.  DickiuHon: — Very  well. 

in  Mr.  Peters: — We  propose  to  go  on  witli  the  caHOfl  for  IRSfi 

aH  that  swmB  to  hh  tlie  best  procedure.  Onr  intention  at  the 
prcNent  time  it*  to  foUow  that  up  with  the  casen  for  1SS7,  and 
then  for  1HS!>,  and  tlien  the  Hpecial  cases  will  come  <>n  one  by 
one,  as  they  are  distinct  and  separate  ciises  altoj;e(hcr. 

The  Commissioner  on  tlie  part  of  Fler  Majesty: — You  will 
have  it  minuted  in  th<>  docket  according;  to  the  rules. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  shall  do  so  today. 

20  Mr.  Dickinson: — We  have  tiled  a  motion  to  dismiss  from 

consid(>ration  before  tlie  Commissioners  claim  number  twen- 
ty-six, entitled  "Costs  in  the  Hayward  (Jase."  We  have  tiled 
this  statement  appended  to  the  motion,  to  which  I  will  call 
your  Honour'^  attention  very  briefly. 

"The  United  States  submit  tliis  motion  to  the  High  Com- 
missioners with  the  statement  that  they  are  now  pn'pared 
to  answer  any  claim  for  sucli  'costs  in  the  Sayward  case'  as 
liave  luH'n  inciirred  by  any  person  or  persons,  and  which 
were  'submitted  to  the  Tribunal  of  Arbitration  at  Paris,'  or 

30  any  claim  'for*.oatH  in  Sayward  case'  incurred  by  any  person 
or  jiersons;'  but  if  it  sliall  be  Insisted  by  Her  Majesty's  Gov- 
ernment that  4-laims  for  expenditures  in  that  case  made  by 
that  (lovernment  or  by  the  Government  of  Canada,  shall  be 
presented  and  considered  before  the  Commissioners,  then 
the  counsel  for  the  United  States  will  move  the  High  C<m>- 
mission<>rs  for  a  poatjionement  of  the  hearing  of  this  motion 
until  communication  can  be  had  with  their  Government." 

I  understand  the  learned  Attorney-General,  Mr.  Peters,  to 
say  that  he  will  insist  upon  the  present    condition    of   the 

40  claim  as  made,  whether  the  costs  are  for  the  Government 
of  Great  Britain  or  Canada,  or  for  a  person  or  persons. 

Mr.  Peters: — Since  my  learned  friend  puts  that  question 
to  me  1  must  distinctly  say  that  we  do  insist  upon  the  claim 
as  put  forward,  namely,  the  sum  of  #(i2,(IO();  and  reading  the 
Convention  as  I  do,  I  am  surprised  that  this  motion  should 
he  made.  We  certainly  do  claim  that  ^02,000,  the  exact  sum 
mentioned  tliere.  Tliat  we  should  simply  claim  some  amount 
paid  by  some  particular  private  individual  is  not  the  claim 
'i^  lliat  we  put  forward  at  all.  Thei'efore,  in  regard  to  the  last 
statement  in  the  motion  of  my  learned  friend,  we  cannot  for 
a  moment  make  any  other  statement  than  that  the  sum  we 
claim  is  the  sum  that  was  actually  paid  by  the  Government 
of  Canada,  throiigh,  of  course — so  far  as  this  Tribunal  is 
concerned — tlie  Hiitisli  Government. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — If  the  Commissioners  prefer  we  will  state 
our  ])osition,  and  then  instead  of  a  postponement  of  the  mo- 
tion we  shall  ask  the  privilege,  before  a  decision  is  rendered, 
60  to  communicate  with  our  Government  upon  the  question  of 
the  understanding  of  the  Government  in  respect  to  tlie  na- 
ture of  the  claims  that  can  be  put  in  under  "the  costs  in  the 
Sayward  case."  As  we  understand  the  Convention,  and  the 
action  of  the  Tribunal  at  Paris,  no  claim  can  be  put  in  by 
any  (5overnm«'nt  audi  as  "costs  in  the  Sayward  case."  '  That 
claim  can  only  apply  to  the  costs  incurred  by  individual 
<  laimants  in  pursuit  of  litigation,  and  in  no  case  can  it  apply 
to  the  costs  of  a  Government  disbursing  sums  of  money  in 
regard  to  the  questions  which  afterwards  went  before  the 


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i9 

Vuvh  Tillmniil.  We  conK'nil  I  lint  tin-  UovcrnnH-nt  rau  no 
inoH'  |tiit  ill  IliiH  claiiii  tliiiii  tln'.v  could  jMit  In  a  olaiin  for 
tin'  coHlH  of  idiinsfl  licfoiv  tlif  I'ariH  Tribunal,  iM'cauHc  tlie 
(IcriHion  of  I  lull  Tiihiinal  lia|i|ifiM'(l  to  he  a'lvfrHc  to  tli»! 
rnit<'<l  StalcH.  In  otlu-r  wordn.  coHts  in  a  lonn  proccfdinK 
.'fore  an  international  Tiilmnal.  and  in  a  procct'dinK  which 
nnhi-accH  both  judicial  proceedings  and  nenotintlonw  and  ar- 
bitration coHts  do  not  follow  the  judnnient.  If  it  did,  cowtH 
on  behalf  of  tlie  (lovernment  could  be  put  In  for  everythinR 
that  has  been  done;  the  employment  of  counsel  In  the  noRotln- 
tions,  the  emplo.vinent  of  counsel  for  advice,  the  employment 
of  counsel  in  litipilion  and  judicial  proceedinKs,  and  the  em- 
ployment of  counsel  before  the  Tribunal  of  Arbitration, 
That,  as  I  understand  it.  is  excluded  by  the  torms  of  the  (jon- 
vention.  Of  course  the  record  discloses  that  there  were 
costs  in  the  Sayward  case  by  individuals,  separate  nmf  dis- 
tinct from  the  "costs  of  the  (Sovernnient.  If  the  iJommis- 
si<mers  desire  it.  I  will  endeavor  to  enlighton  the  (;oniniis- 
sioners  as  far  as  I  can  as  to  our  position  in  this  matter,  with 
the  understan<lin};  that  before  the  decision  is  rendered,  I 
shall  prefer  to  net  the  instriicticms  of  my  tiovernment  npon 
this  (piestion  of  whether  we  may  pursue  an  investigation 
with  regard  to  such  costs  of  the  Mritish  (Sovernment  or  of 
the  (lovernmenl  of  the  Dominion  of  t'anada. 

The  Conimissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States:— In 
our  Circuit  Court,  where  we  have  so  many  cpiestions  of 
jurisdicticm.  if  we  tind  a  sharp  cpiestion  of  jurisdiction  raised, 
it  is  (juite  our  custom  to  dispose  of  it  on  the  motion  to  dis- 
miss. Hut  if  we  tind  a  (piestion  of  jurisdiction  raiaed  which 
reipiires  the  opening  of  the  reconl  at  all.  it  is  usual  for  us 
to  i)08tpone  the  hearing  of  a  nioti<»n  to  dismiss  until  the  hear 
ing  on  the  merits;  reserving  all  rights.  Would  not  that  meet 
your  position  Mr.  I)i<'kinson  with  regard  to  this  particular 
case? 

Mr.  Diciiinson: — With  reference  to  tliis  pu.ticnlar  case,  It 
wonid  your  Honour,  but  not  as  to  the  other  (piestionB  of 
jurisdiction. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  ]mrt  of  the  United  States: — I  re- 
fer t<)  this  particular  case  which  swms  to  be  somewhat  an 
involved  (juestion  re(|uiring  perhaps  an  examination  of  the 
record. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — If  your  Honours  would  like  I  could  give 
you  the  reference  to  the  protocols  of  the  Tribunal  <<•  .-Oitra- 
tion  on  the  claims  which  are  in  (piestion  here. 

Tlie  Conimissioner  on  the  piirt  of  the  United  States: — If 
tlie  Commissioners  would  be  willing  to  jiostpone  this  mo- 
tion to  dismiss,  to  be  heard  in  connection  with  the  merits, 
reserving  all  the  rights.  I  :isk  you.  whether  or  not  they  would 
best  meet  y<Mir  purpose  and  give  you  an  opportunity  of  com- 
municating with  the  fiovernment  of  the  United  States. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  think  not.  yinr  Hcmour.  I  think  the 
qnesti(Ui  should  be  met  on  the  thit  h  i,.!(l.  If  the  costs  of  the 
Croverninent  can  be  entertained  here  then  they  may  come  in 
in  connection  with  every  other  case  in  which  tiie  Goveniment 
has  incurred  expense. 

The  Cfuumissioner  on  the  part  of  the  Unite<l  States: — Do 
you  desire  to  have  the  motion  heard  now  or  do  yon  wish  first 
to  communicate  with  the  authorities  at  Wasliington  before 
the  motion  is  heard? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  do  not  care  to  press  this  motion  now. 
If  I  should  be  instructed  by  the  <iovernment  to  answer  the 
claim  and  go  into  the  merits  upon  it,  it  would  perhaps  not 
be  necessary.      Mr.  Peters  has  expressed  surprise  at  this  mo- 


f! 


40 

tidii,  lint  we  iii-<-  iM|iiiill\  siii'|irisi'il  ilia(  In-  slioiild  put  ill  iiny 
roHtH  ill  till-  Siiywiiril  r:iKr,  rinlinH'iiiK  iiiivlliiiiK  v\hv  iIiiiii 
wlitit  ii|ip)'iirs  liy  III)'  I'cciit'd  lo  liiivc  lirt'ii  <'.\|ifiiil('il  l)\  iiiiliviil 
iiiiIh.  \\'<-  iiri-  siii'iM'isi'il  iit  (ills  iinioii  in  \  i<  \v  of  Aillrlt-  I. 
•  if  till'  ('(iiivciilioii  wliii'li  in-oviilt-H  (liiii  liiis  iii\r.-ili);iili<iii  lic- 
rm-r  llliN  < 'olIlllliMHiiill    \h  ciinllllfd    In   lllt'  t'liiilllH  nl'   |irl'StillH. 

Till'  ('(inmiiHsifiiuT  on   llu-   pail   of    llcr   Majesty: — Ho  you 
wiHJi  lo  poHt|)<>iic  lliis  inolioii  until  you  loiiiiuuiiiraU'  witli  llic 
10      iiutlioiitit'H  ill  WaHliin^'ltiii'.' 

Mr.  DiikiDHoii: — Yt-H.  your  Honour. 

Till-  r«iiiiiiiiMsiont'r  on  llic  pail  of  llcr  Majcsly — There  Ih 
no  olijeition  011  llie  pail  of  llie  ''oniinissioneis. 

Mr.  IMikinson:—  »'ery  well. 

The  ('oniiniNsioner  on  I  he  part  of  Her  .Majesty: — There  is 

the  rontiiip-ney  tiiiil  it  iui;rhi   possilily  save  ar;;uineiil  on  the 

mot  ion. 
.•0 

Mr.  I'eters: — I  have  no  olijertion  to  llie  course  of  ]i(iHtpon- 
iii|;  Ihe  niotiuii.  NN'ilh  regard  to  other  inalterH  thai  have 
lieell  raised  hefore  this  couii  with  referellee  lo  tlie  two  other 
elaiins,  the  judgnieiil  of  the  t'oiniuissioners  iiiiglil.  I  think, 
very  well  be  postponed  until  a  similar  opporliinily  lias  been 
given  US  to  roiiiinunirale  with  the  authorities  at  (Mtawa.  I 
might  say  that  I  have  taken  oceasion  to  roniniiinieate  by  tele 
graph  with  Sir  'luliaii  raiiiirefote  on  the  lualter,  in  view  of 
the  objeetions  raised  by  my  learned  friend.  .Mr.  niekinson 
30  iiiiglit  perhaps  wish  to  ('ommunicate  with  .Mr.  Oliiey  on  the 
same  matter,  and  |irobably  the  course  wliicli  is  taken  with 
regard  to  Hie  Sayward  would  also  be  taken  with  regard  to 
the  other  cases:  that  is.  that  no  Judgment  should  be  rendered 
on  these  niolions  until  we  iuivc  tiie  res'<lt  ol  the  communica- 
tions which  I  have  made,  and  whicli  '  nk  I  am  correct  in 
saying  my  learned  friend  Mr.  I>i<'kin  <s  also  iiinde. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  made  no  cmiiiirie.^  .ecause  I  coiiHidered 
myself  sutfici)  ally  eiiligiiteiied  upon  this  mallei'  liy  the  dip- 
,Q  loiiiatic  corres|ioiideiice.  I  will  say  further,  that  I  have  re- 
ported to  my  (io'.'eriiiiieiit  the  |ireseiitation  of  the  claiiiH, 
showing  how  they  seem  to  be  outside  of  the  t 'onveiiiioii. 
Substantially  I  reported  to  the  tiovernmeiit  that  (treat  Itri 
tain  proposes  to  entertain  these  claims  embracing  in  my  com- 
iiiiinicatioii  the  .substance  of  what  I  have  presented  lo  the 
t'uinniissiuners. 

The  t'omniissioner  on  llie  jiarl   of  Her  Majesty: — Nothiiii: 
will  be  ilone  upon   the  present    iiiolion    which   has  not     been 
formally  made,  but  of  which  notice  has  been  given.       It  lies 
5'        over  for  the  present. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — That  refers  to  the  Sayward  costs. 

The  ("ominissioiier  on  Ihe  part  of  llie  Tniled  Slates:— Vis. 
notliing  will  be  done  about   it   until  it  is  called  lo  our  atten 
tion  by  counsel. 

The  ('ominissioiier  <ui  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — It  is  o|»"ii 
for  Mr.  Dickinson  at  any  time  to  move  in   the  matter. 

60  Mr.  I'eters:— I  may  state  to  the  ('oiiiniissinners  before  W' 

adjourn  today  that  if  it  suits  the  convenience  of  the  Com 
iiiissioners  we  would  lie  ready,  and  we  propose,  to  go  on  wit!i 
the  case  of  the  •'< "arolciia"  on  W'rdnesdav  iiioi-iiing. 


Mr.  Dickinson 
('umniissioners. 


riiat  is  satisfactfiry  to  us  if  it  pleases  tlio 
The  ('oinnussioii  then  rose. 


"^ 


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Oommissioners  under  the  Convention  of  February  8'  1896,  between 
Oreat  Britain  and  the  Unitod  btate»  of  America. 

Chambers  of  the  Legislativj  Assembly, 

At  Victoria,  December  2,  1896. 

.\l    Kli'KI  llif  <  iiniri'i.sitiiii'i'.s   Inol;   tlicir  si'iils. 

Tlic  «'(nmiiiNsii»ii<'r  mi  iln'  |iim(  oI'  llcr  .Miijt'8(,v: — Tlu'  ('0111- 
iiiisMiiiiicrM  have  ii'iciMMl  n  cniiiiiiuiiiiiilliiii   rrom  ilit-  Jiifiih'ii- 
iinl'fjiovri'iior  as  lu  (Im    stainiMiil   rtMilaiiiiil   in   liir  tirsl    I'ro 
Inrol.  and  tliiTi'i   iIm'  Srci'i'iarv  li>  lilf  anil  cnlci'  it   iiikiii  tlic 
I'rolonil   iiidav.      .^I'c   von   I'cadv  now   Mi'.    I'i'icrs  ? 

All".  rclciH: — I  infoi'incd  I  lie  <'oniniiMMionci-H  a  few  davs  aj{<> 
thai  I  would  iufscnt  to  tliini  a  ropv  ot  tin-  HchcdulfH  ot' 
clalniH  i!N  pi-cMt-nlfd  at  tin-  I'aiis  Tiiliunal.  I  now  do  mo,  ir 
lu'iuK  <li'arlv  'indcrHtood  that  I  nificlv  infsmt  llicni  for  tin- 
couvcnicinc  of  the  Connnissioii,  not  iMitliii;;  tlicni  in  in  any 
wav  as  cvidciin'.  nor  as  hindin^  on  ii.-*  as  ',0  il,.-  i|n*'siion  of 
iiniount.  I  sinipl.v  put  llicin  in  for  ronvf-nicncc.  an<l  infor 
niill.v,  as  it  is  perfect Iv  appaient  thai  the  ( '(uninissioiu'is  will 
have  to  refer  to  I  he  .schedules.  I  have  fuinislnd  rnv  learned 
friends  on  the  other  side  with  copies,  also  for  their  conven- 
ience. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Of  course  the  pafxinj;  is  not  the  same,  may 
it  please  the  Commissioners.  Tile  pa^inH  <>f  the  ori^'inal  case 
for  iMirposes  of  reference  all  throiinh  the  Protocols  and  tlie 
award  of  the  I'aris  Trihunal  is  fiom  pap-s  I  to  till,  emhracinir 
the  same  mailer. 

Mr.  I'eteis:— \\c  now  intend  to  proceed,  mav  it  please  the 
«  oinmissKMiers,  wiili  the  case  of  the  -Carolena."  I  do  m-i 
Ihink  it  will  he  necessary  to  make  anv  h-nythv  prelimimirv 
I'emarks  with  rev:ard  to  that  case. 

The  (Vmimissiom-r  on  the  part  of  the  miK-d  Slates— 1 
w-ould  like  to  know  what  the  pleadinj-s  are. 

Mr  i-eters:-!  will  read  tlu  pl-adiiiffs,  so  that  we  nmv  see 
low  the  matter  aeiually  stands.  The  pleadings  are  set  forll. 
in^the  statement   ot  .hum   numl.er   1,  ami   the  claim  alle^en 

On  ..rahont  ihei'Oth  May,  ISMi;,  ,he    Taroh.na"  saile.l  from 

in,  '  "^',"''  *''■'■""  "'"'  '='''"'^'  ^''"-  "•■'■  •""«••''•  was  .lames 
Mlane.  She  carried  a  crew  of  nine  sailors  .ind  hunters,  and 
was  fully  e(|uipp.-d  foi  said  voya,u...  and  C.r  tiie  liuntiim  and 
eapture   of  seals. 

On  the  Isl  d:i.v  of  .Vu-ii.^^l.  I.ssti,  wliiisi  in  llie  lierinfj;  .s,.;, 
in  North  Latitiii,.  .'mmO;  West   l.on^iiliide  llJ.s;.-,:!  j,nd  distant 

about    (t»  miles  from    Ihe  ueaiesi    land,   ll ("arolena"  lieiii};- 

then   lawfully  eiif-ap'ii   in   ilie  ial;iiic;   of  sejils  at    that   place 
was  seized  hy  Ihe  I'niled  States  ivveinie  cutter  -('orwin." 

The  "Carolena"  was  towed  liy  said  cutter  to  Oiinalaska 
and  there  dismantled,  and  sudi  proc<'edin«s  were  afli-rwards 
had  and  taken  in  the  I'niled  Slates  Oislrict  Court  of  Alaska, 
at  the  instance  of  the  (Joverninenl  of  the  Inited  Stales  of 
America,  thai  ihe  .said  s.-liooner.  her  tackle.  api>arel.  outlit 
and  carffo  were  condemned  for  a  violation  of  the  muni!'i|)al 
laws  of  Ih"  Inited  Slates  of  America  relating'  to  the  seal 
fishing  in  the  waters  of  .Mask.i.  and  detained  under  sudi 
(ondemnation  until  alter  the  iihuiIIi  of  December.  1S,'«I7.  when 
the  return  of  the  said  schooner  was  offered  but  not  aicejited 
on  Ihe  fri'oiind  that  Ihr-  vesel  liad  been  practically  wrecked  in 
Ihe  meantime. 

Uy   reason   of   the   premises    fiiHlier    prosecution     of     the 


"'% 


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said  scaling  voyage  dming  tlic  year  ISSO  \vm  wholly  prevent- 
ed, and  the  owner  of  said  sehoner  was  also  previ-nti'd  from 
using  her  for  the  purposes  of  seal  Ininting  during  the  year 
1887,  as  he  otherwise  would  have  done;  and  linally  the  said 
sehoner,  her  tackle,  apparel,  outiit  and  eargo  were  wludly 
lost  to  those  interested  in  the  same,  and  other  loss,  diunage 
and  expense  were  suffered  and  incurred  by  the  i)ersons  so 
inlerest*^!. 

Under  the  facts  as  found  in  the  award  of  the  Paris  Tribu- 
nal of  Arbitration  the  said  seizure,  condemnation  and  deten- 
lion  were  without  any  warrant  or  right  according  to  the  prin- 
ciples of  international  law,  and  Iler  Mritannic  Majesty  claims 
that  full  and  comjdete  com])ensation  should  be  nmde  by  the 
<iovernment  of  the  United  States  of  America  to  the  (Jovern- 
ment  of  Her  Britannic  Majesty  for  all  loss  thereby  sustained. 

The  claim  made  for  the  loss  arising  out  of  the  i)remises  is 
the  sum  of  fJiO. ()<»(>  and  interest  thereon  from  the  diile  of  loss 
at  the  rate  of  seven  per  c(?ntum  per  annum. 

Mr.  Peters: — Properly,  I  may  stop  there  f')r  'l)e  present,  as 
the  other  claims  relate  to  the  personal  claims  of  the  master 
and  m.'ite,  and  n>ay  fairly  be  considered  in  the  evidt'uce  at  all 
events.  In  reply  to  that  claim  the  United  States  set  tip  the 
following  defence: 

1.  They  admit  that  on  or  about  August  1st,  ISOfi.  at  a  dis- 
tance of  about  seventy-five  miles  from  the  n<'arest  land,  the 
said  vessel,  the  "Carolena,''  was  seized  by  tlu'  Unit«'d  States 
revenue  cutter  '•('orwin''  and  that  said  seizure  was  made  in 
Hering  Sea  and  was  ratified  and  adopted  by  the  (lovernment 
of  the  United  States. 

Rut  it  is  averred  on  the  part  of  the  United  States,  that 
til','  said  seizure  was  made  in  good  faith,  by  officers  of  the 
T'nited  States,  within  the  line  of  their  duty  imder  the  author 
ity  and  mandate  of  the  municipal  laws  of  the  United  States, 
for  a  violation  of  the  statutes  of  the  United  Stat<'s,  and  sucli 
seizure  was  ratified  and  adopted  in  good  faith  by  the  (Jovern- 
ment  of  the  United  States  as  for  a  violation  of  tlieir  said 
statutes. 

?..  The  United  States  aver  that,  before,  at  the  time  of.  and 
after  the  seizure  of  the  said  vesel.  the  said  vessel,  her  ajiparel, 
outfit  and  cargo,  were  wholly  or  in  part  the  actual  pro|)erty 
of  a  citizen  or  citizens  of  the  United  States,  and  further  that 
at  the  times  aforesaid  the  i)enefi<ial  interest  in  the  whole  or  a 
part  of  the  said  ves.-»el,  her  ajiparel,  outfit  and  cargo,  were 
possessed  and  owned  by  a  citizen  or  citizens  of  the  United 
States,  and  that  her  wiid  voyage  was  entered  upon  and  prose- 
cuted, in  whole  or  in  part,  for  the  benefit  of  a  citizen  or  citiz- 
ens of  the  T'nited  States. 

They  proceed  to  say  in  Section  H  that 

"As  to  some  of  the  statenu-nts  of  detail  and  fact  in  pnra- 
graphs  numbered  2,  I?,  4,  and  .'>  in  flie  said  Ulaini  of  TTer 
llritannic  Majesty,  the  representatives  of  the  United  States 
have  no  sufflcient  knowledire,  and  as  to  such  of  them  as  may 
be  held  material  the  United  States  invite  and  require  autlien 
lie  and  suitable  proofs  before  the  ITigh  Commisioners." 

Whilst  reading  that  section  1  think  I  might  fairly  point  out 
to  the  rommissioner^  that  this  section  is  nol  so  mucli  a  (iu<s 
tionofideading,  or  a  statement  of  fact,  as  ii  queslion  thai  will 
hereafter  arise  upon  the  evidence  when  you  rouu>  to  the  ns 
sessment  of  damages.  It  is  more  a  ipu-stion  of  law  than  of 
fact,  and  it  is  a  matter  hardly  in  issue,  and  hardly  to  be 
joined  on.  It  will  be  an  issue  of  law  thai  may  be  raised  on 
the  evidence. 

Then  they  go  on* 

4   As  to  paragraph  numbered  r>  in  said  claim,  the  T*nit(Hl 


43 


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60 


States  will  submit  to  the  Iligli  Commissioners  and  will  in- 
sist that  tliey  are  not  liable  for  (lamng(^  for  the  detention  of 
hiu'li  vessel  when  the  seizure,  as  is  allej!;ed  and  shown  in  said 
(,'laini,  resulted  in  the  total  loss  to  the  owners,  of  the  vessel, 
her  outfit,  apparel  and  cargo,  as  of  the  time  of  said  seizure; 
and  that  in  any  event  the  damages  therein  suggested  and 
claimed  are  of  \he  nature  of  prospective  profits  and  specula- 
tive diiir.ages,  so  uncertain  ap  to  form  no  legal,  equitable  or 
suitable  basis  for  a  finding  of  fact  upon  which  an  assess- 
mei;t  thereof  can  be  predicated. 

5.  The  United  States  will  further  insist  that,  so  far  as  a 
proper  claim  for  damages  for  total  loss  is  concerned,  the 
statement  of  the  loss  alleged  in  paragraph  7  as  having  arisen 
out  of  the  said  seizure  is  grossly  excessive. 

G.  As  to  the  further  amount  claimed  for  the  alleged  im- 
proper arrest  injprisonment  and  detention  of  James  Ogilvie 
and  James  Hlako,  persons  employed  upon  said  vessel  at  the 
time  of  her  seizure,  the  I'nited  States  admit  the  arrests  as 
stated,  but  deny  i'le  ;nii)risonment  and  statements  of  fact  in- 
cident thereto  as  detailed  in  the  statement  of  the  British 
Claim;  and  they  aver  that  such  arrests  and  all  subsequent 
jtroceedings  thereon  by  the  officials  of  the  United  States  were 
made,  entered  upon  and  had.  in  good  faith,  under  the  man- 
date and  autho;-ity  of  the  municipal  laws  of  the  United 
States,  for  a  violation  of  the  statutes  of  the  United  States; 
and  they  aver  that  the  only  damages  to  be  considered,  in 
case  of  any  liability  on  the  part  of  the  United  States  for 
such  arrests  and  detentions,  are  those  for  actual  pecuniary 
loss  and  are  not  in  their  nature  puntive  or  aggravated  dam- 
ages. 

7.  The  United  States  do  not  admit  any  liability  on  this 
claim. 

To  that  a  reply  has  been  put  in  on  the  part  of  Her  Brittanic 
Majesty,  and  it  is  as  follows. 

1.  Her  Britannic  Majesty  joins  issue  on  paragraphs  1,  4, 
T).  and  (i  of  the  reply  of  tlie  United  States,  except  in  so  far 
ns  tliey  contain  admissions. 

2.  in  further  answer  to  the  second  part  of  said  paragraph 
1,  Her  Britannic  Majt-stv  submits  that  the  same  constitutes 
no  defence  to  Mer  Majesty's  claim  or  any  i)art  thereof. 

.'{.  .\s  to  paragrai>li  2,  Her  Britannic  Majesty'  says  that 
(he  above-named  schoner  was  found  by  the  Tribunal  of  Arbi- 
tration at  Paris  to  be  a  British  vessel,  and  stibmits  that  it  is 
not  open  to  the  Conimisiouers,  acting  under  tlH>  Bering  Sea 
(Jlaims  Convention,  to  cntiuire  as  to  her  ownership;  the  said 
finding  of  facts  Iteing  conclusive  so  far  as  this  Commission  is 
concerned. 

4.  And  in  the  alternative  and  in  further  answer  to  said 
paragraph  2.  Her  Britannic  Jfajesty  submits  that  even  if  such 
inquiry  can  be  entered  upon,  it  should  be  limited  to  the  ques- 
tion of  the  actual  uw  '.'I'ship  of  the  said  vessel  only,  €and  that 
as  between  nations,  iiul  should  not  in  any  event  «'xtend  as 
to  the  benefl<'ial  im  !';'st  in  the  whole  or  a  part  of  the  vessel, 
her  apparel,  outfi  md  cargo;  or  as  to  whether  her  voyage 
was  entered  upon  and  prosecuted  in  whole  or  in  part  for  the 
benefit  of  a  citizen  or  citizens  of  the  Ignited  States. 

.5.  In  further  answer  to  said  paragraph  2,  Her  Britannic 
Maj<>sty  denies  each  and  every  of  the  allegations  of  fact  there- 
in contained. 

f).  Her  Britannic  iTajesty  further  siibmits  that  according 
to  the  principh>s  of  international  law,  the  practice  obtaining 
annnig  nations,  and  the  terms  of  the  Bering  Sea  Claims  Con- 
vention, the  allegaiions  contained  in  the  said  Reply  even  if 
proved,  do  not  constitutt  any  defence  to  the  Claim  for  com- 
pensation set  forth  in  the  said  Statement  of  Claim. 

These  pleadings   relate  to  questions   of  fact  and   certain 


\\  fl 


20 


44 

qiiestionM  of  law.  A  vt-rv  sniitll  ixdlioii  of  the  issues  Hi- 
upon  0111-  »i(l?  to  pro\«'.  All  tlic  !ill»'},'iilioiis  willi  rt'nard  (o 
the  ownt'i'sliip  of  (lie  vcssi'l.  if  Hu'V  can  lie  laiscd  at  all.  must 
Ik'  proved  l»,v  ni.v  learned  friend.  With  re<rard  to  those  issues, 
we  do  not  propose  to  i^ive  an\  evidence  whatever  at  the  pres 
ent  time.  With  i-ei;*)!!]  to  that  part  of  the  claim  whic'i  sets 
lip  that  this  vessel  or  her  carfj"  was  owned  Itv  jieople  who  are 
American  citizens,  we  do  not  at  the  present  time  propose  t) 
tender  an.v  evidence  whatever.  \\\'  do  not  think  that  we 
10  have  anything;  to  do  with  that  issue,  until  evidence  has  been 
f?iven  bv  my  learned  friend  on  the  other  side  witli  regard  iv> 
that  question;  so  we  shall  confine  ourselves  now  to  puttinf; 
before  the  ('(mtmissioners  evidence  which  we  think  bears 
upon  such  of  the  issues  as  it  is  Incumbent  on  us  to  prove. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  |»art  of  the  I'nited  States:—  .\m! 
you  not  bound  to  nuike  a  prima  facie  casi'  as  to  naliou- 
ality,  under  the  tirst  two  lines  of  your  claim? 

Mr.  Peters: — Inder  the  tirst  two  lines  of  our  claim  we 
allege  that  she  is  a  registered  ship,  and  that  is  admitted. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Tliere  is  no  admission,  but  I  have  no  doubt 
they  will  show  a  Mritish  He^istry.  your  Honour. 

Mr.  I'eters: — I  intend  as  a  matter  of  fact  to  put  in  tlic 
very  docnnu-nt  which  was  taken  from  this  vessel,  or  a  copy 
of  it,  I  have  not  the  ori<;inal.  but  my  learned  friend  has  fur- 
nished me  with  a  copy  of  it — the  very  document  which  tips 
vessel  caried  at  the  time  she  was  seized.  That  is  all  the 
30  eviden<e  we  pr(»pose  .if  the  presnt  linu'  to  lay  bef(ue  the 
Onimissioners.  That  will  be  (piite  sutticient  to  make  a  priiiM 
fiicie  case. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  Slates:--It 
occurs  to  me  that  you  oii};ht  to  put  in  enou};h  to  show  lier 
nationality.  prima  facie,  at  any  rate. 

Mr.  Peters:— The  fact  that  she  Hew  the  Hritish  tla^i  will  be 
fjuite  sufficient   to  prove  that;  but   as  a   matter  (»f  fa' t    we 
.,_j       submit  that  it  is  admitted  on  the  pleadinps, 

The  <'ommiHsi<mer  on  the  part  of  the  Inited  Si;it«'s: — I 
n«'ver  so  undersood  it. 

Mr.  Peters: — W«'  intend  to  lay  before  the  rommissioni  i-s 
the  certificate  of  renistralion  1  think  that  will  cover  the 
prima  facie  case,  if  \\v  .ire  bound  to  >io  into  that  iiuiMiiou  at 
all.  whi<-h  I  do  not  admit.  U'e  are  (juite  prepared  to  ic*ve  tint 
evidence, — in  fact  it  will  come  out  in  the  course  of  this  cise. 
-    and  I  think  there  will  be  no  (|uestiou  at  all  thai  this  ship 

SO       did  have  a  Hritish  rejjister. 

.Vow  these  beiufj  the  issues,  we  piopose  to  lay  tli"'  evid'-nce 
bef(U'e  your  Honours  sttmet liinir  as  follows:  Tiie  fad  lh.it 
tliai  this  seizure  took  place  in  Isst!.  of  course  iiiaUcs  ii  dilli- 
cii't  for  us  to  obtain  tl  e  i|iiantity  ■>(  evidence  we  woiilil  like  to 
<d)tain  as  to  the  actual  fa'ts.  \'i  iili  ref^aid  to  tiiis  very  ship, 
the  "("arolena."  of  all  the  cr">v  thai  were  on  board  of  her  at 
th»'  time  of  seizure,  but  few  are  oblaiiiable..  .\s  a  miilter  of 
fact  I  am  <'<M"rect  in  saylm;  thai  ihuh'  uf  liiein  can  actually  be 
obtiiiiied  l<i  jlive  evidence  befcu"'.'  this  ( 'iiiiiinissinii.     So  far  as 

"O  we  can  ascertain,  there  are  only  two  or  I  luce  of  llieiii  wIkisi.' 
places  of  residence  can  now  be  found  out.  and  we  cannot  ob- 
tain them  to  >rive  their  evideuce  ill  this  matter.  We  can.  how 
ever,  obtain  I  lie  fvideme  of  smiie  of  tlic  iiicii  who  wen-  in  the 
other  ships  at  llie  time  (lie  seizures  look  jilace.  ships  that  were 
also  seized,  ami  men  who  ficin  personal  knowlcd«e  have  a 
certain  anuiiint  of  information,  at  all  events,  as  lo  what  tool; 
place  after  the  seizures  were  made.  Your  Honours  will  see 
that  the  seizures  ia  IH.Sti  all  took  jdan'  about  the  sanii'  time. 


0 


45 


lO 


20 


Tlic  first  iiiid  sccdiul  of  Ant;ust  were  I  lie  dates  of  all  the  »»'i/. 
iiics,  and  we  liavc  sonic  of  tlic  wiliii'sscs  from  some  of  tlic 
otiicr  ships  wliicli  wcri-  si'iz<  d  at  tliat  time,  who  will  lu'  abh- 
to  fi\\t\  as  cxjM'rienccil  eye  witnesses,  the  facts  that  took  place 
after  the  seizures. 

I  propose,  first,  to  lay  before  this  CornniisMion  the  diplo- 
matic correspondence  which  took  pla<e  with  refjard  to  this 
particular  vessel.  I  cannot  make  this  vessel  exactly  sep- 
arate. Itecanse  the  corre;'<|»ondei)ce,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  related 
lo  the  tiii'ee  vessels  that  werc'  seized:  and  \  pi(>i>(ise  in  the  tir.st 
instance,  in  order  (o  luini;  the  matter  at  once  before  (lie  com- 
tnissioners.  to  point  ont  to  your  Honours  the  parts  of  the  cov 
respondence  that   we  deem  ajtply  to  the  jtresent  case. 

The  facts,  as  your  Honours  are  now  aware,  are.  that  the 
seizure  of  that  vessel  took  place  on  the  first  day  of  August. 
ISSti.  1  refer  to  Senate  Executive  Document.  No."  100.  Fiftieth 
Congress  siM-ond  session,  that  being  a  message  from  the 
President  of  the  f'nited  States  transmitting  to  the  Senate  the 
<orrespondence  relating  to  those  dift'erenf  seizures;  and  I  find 
on  page  22  of  that  document  a  c<ipy  of  the  record  of  the 
jiroceedings  against  the  "Carolena."  which  I  i)roi»ose  to  put 
in  evi<lence.  I  do  not  think  if  necessary  to  encumber  the 
record  by  putting  in  all  the  formal  documents,  that  is  to  say, 
tile  original  libel,  and  the  monition  and  some  merely  prelim- 
inary proceedings  as  to  taking  the  evidence;  but  I  pro|M>se 
lo  ((ime  to  tile  actual  evidence  Hi\cn  in  the  case,  which  is 
femid  beginning  at   page  1!>.       There  the  heading  is 


40 


30      l^'   TIIK    IMTKI)   STATKS    IHSTHICT   CtMIM-    IN   AM» 
F()l{  THK  hISTHKT  OK  AL.VSKA.  IMTI-Mt 
STATKS  (»F  AMKKK  A. 

The  I'nitcd  Stat<-s  of  .\merica  vs.  The  Schooner  '•(  "arolena." 
\o.  .'1. 

Dcjiosition  III'  witnesses  swi.iii  ;ind  e.Niiinined  liefoie  me  on 
liie  Ttt.  (lay  iif  Sepicniber,  .\.l).  l><sii.  :it  7  o'-lock  p.m.  of  said 
day.  and  on  Sejiiember  sih  jiud  itlli.  Issd.  lii.Mciiflei-.  at  the 
clerk's  office  oT  s;r  roiirt  in  Sitka,  district  of  .Vlaska.  I'nitcMl 
Slates  of  .\iiieii,  \,\  virtue  and  in  pursnance  of  the  order 
of  said  couM.  iiiaili  and  cniered  in  ilie  above  entitled  a(ti<m 
on  S(|(ienitier  f.tli,  Issti.  diredin^;  iliat  the  lesiiniiMiy  and 
depositions  (if  said  witnesses  1..  laken  before  nil'  at  ilie  said 
tirsf  nieiitioned  lime  and  pla(  1  and  at  such  siili- M|uent  limes 
as  ihe  lakinj;  of  ilie  same  miglii  \>i  <(iiiiiniied  b>  me.  in  said 
action  Iheii  and  llieic  peiidiny  in  said  (lisliict  conil  beiween 
the  lulled  Stales  as  plaliiMlT  and  iIk  scliooner  ("arolena  as 
(lef(  iidanl.  (Ill  beliair  of  and  al  Ilie  liisiaiice  ef  (lie  siiid  jdain- 
-Q  till',  the  I'liiied  Siales.  and  iipmi  notice  nf  Hie  lime  and  jilace 
of  taking  of  said  (h  posilions,  sei\cd  upon  -lames   Ulake.  the 

male  of  said    scl iier.     he   beliiy     the  only    (dticer   of   said 

scliooner  upon  wIkhii  sei\  ice  could  be  made,  and  n|Min  W. 
Clark.  I';s(|..  his  allorne\.  Ilie  owners  of  said  scli.Miiier  belli"'- 
unknown  and  willioiii   ilie  jiiilsdicilon  of  lliis  couii. 

The  Coiiimissioiier  on  the  part  of  the  Inited  .•^liHes: — I.s  thi.H 
a  part  of  your  opeiiliif:,  or  are  you  olt'ering  it  as  evidence? 

.Mr.  reters:  — I  ptopose  lo  point  out  the  part   1  want  to  give 
ill    evidence. 

The  ('onimissioiier  on  Hie  part   of  the  ["niled  States: Von 

are  not  otTerliig  the  evidence  now  ? 

.Mr.  I'eleis:^l   iH'ojioxe  lo  stale  lo  the  Court   what    parts   I 

desire  to  put   ill  evidence,  and  llien   telldei-  It.  In  block,  wllhout 

going  over  It  again. 

The  wllness  called   was  Captain   C.   A.   .\bliey.   who.  being 
duly  s\v(Mii.  deposes  and  sa\s: 


63 


lO 


46 

Captiiin  ('.  A.  Abboy,  being  duly  sworn,  deiiost'H  and  says; 

Q.  State  your  name  and  occupation. — A.  (.'ajttain  C  .A.  Ab- 
bey, in  tile  I'nited  Htates  Revenue  Marine  Strvice,  at  present 
in  command  of  the  U.  K.  revenue  steamer  "Corwin"  on  sjH'cial 
duty  in  Alaslian  waters,  for  tlie  protection  of  tlie  seal  islands 
and  of  the  (Joveniment  interests  in  Alaska  generally. 

(J.  What  were  you  doing  and  what  (Hcurred  on  the  1st  of 
August  last  in  the  line  of  your  duty? — A.  C'ruislng  in  Hi>riug 
Sea  about  seventy-flve  miles  south-southeast  from  St.  tleorge's 
Island,  and  I  found  the  Hritish  schooner  "C'arolena"'  of  Vic- 
toria, H.  ('.,  drifting  with  sails  down.  Her  bcwits  were  ab- 
sent and  sho  was  evidently  a  sealer.  I  saw  dead  seals  lying 
npon  her  forward  deck;  inquired  of  the  schooner  in  which 
direction  her  boats  were. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  simi)ly  call  the  attention  of    the    Commis- 
sioners to  this  particular  evidence,  with  the  view  of  pointin-^ 
out  that  at  the  very  time  this  seizure  took  place  the  vessel 
was  actually  engaged  in  seal  fishing.    He  says 
20 

I  then  ordered  her  to  be  seized  by  Lieut.  Cantwell  for  kill- 
ing fur-seal  in  the  waters  of  Alaska,  took  her  in  tow  and 
pmci*eded  to  hunt  up  her  boats,  all  four  of  which  I  found 
with  freshly-killed  fur-seal  in  them,  arms,  ammunition  and 
hunters,  some  of  whom  I  saw  sh(M)ting  at  the  seal  in  the 
water.  These  boats  all  went  on  board  the  "Carolena."  On 
this  evidence  I  caused  the  vessel  to  be  seized  by  Lieut.  <.'ant- 
well.  I  took  her  in  tow  and  proceeded  with  her  to  Ouna- 
laska,  where  I  placed  the  vessel,  tackle,  cargo,  furniture,  and 
^o  appurtenances  in  charge  of  Deputy  I'.  S.  Marshal  Issmc  An- 
derson, of  Ounalaska;  the  cargo  of  fur-seals  being  stored  in 
"Keuch,"  in  one  of  the  warehouses  of  the  Alaska  Commercial 
Company,  and  under  seal.  The  arms  and  ammunition  of 
the  vessel  I  took  on  board  the  "Corwin"  and  brought  to  Sitka 
and  delivered  into  the  custody  of  the  U.  S.  marshal  there. 

The  vessel,  tackle,  furniture  and  cargo  are  now  in  the  cus- 
tody of  the  U.  S.  nmrshal  of  this  district. 

Q.  Was  this  the  vessel  against  which  this  libel  of  informa- 
tion was  flliHl? — A.  It  is. 
40       Q.  Did  all  this  occur  within  the  waters  of  Alaska  and  the 
Territorv  of  Alaska,  and  within  the  jurisdiction  of  this  court? 
—A.  It  did. 

Q.  Did  this  occur  within  the  waters  of  the  sea  navigable 
for  vessels  of  ten  (l(h  tons  burden  or  over? — A.  It  did. 

C.  A.  ABHEY. 

Subscribed  and  sworn  to  before  me  this  Dth  day  of  Sep- 
tember, A.D.  1886,  after  having  been  read  over  by  me  to  de- 
jtoneut. 

ANDREW  T.  LEWIS, 
50  Clerk. 

Then  the  next  witness  is  called.  He  is  Lieutenant  Cant- 
well.  He  is  asked  to  state  his  name,  and  so  forth,  and  he 
does  so.      He  is  asked 

Lieutenant  John  C.  Cantwell,  being  duly  sworn,  deposes 
and  says: 

Q.  State  your  name,  occupation  and  age? — A.  John  C.  Cant- 
well,  third  lieutenant,  l'.  S.  Marine  Service,  at  present  on 
60  duty  on  the  V.  S.  Revenue  sleamer  "Corwin,"  and  over  tlie 
age  of  twenty  one  vears. 

<J.  Were  vou  so  on  the  Isl  day  of  August  last? — A.  I  was. 

(i.  State  what  occurred  on  that  day  in  the  line  of  your  duty. 
—  \'.  A  schooner  was  sighted  from  the  "Corwin,"  and  I  was 
diiected  li\  Captain  Abbey  to  board  her.  I  found  her  to  b" 
Ihe  schoiHier  '•<'arolena,"  of  Victoria,  R.C,  James  Ogilvie, 
laptain,  ai:d  l.imcH  ISlake,  mat  -.  i  saw  d(>'.id  seal  upon  her 
deck  and  the  <-aptaiu  admitted  that  he  was  «>ugag(Hl  in  taking 
seal,  and  that  four  of  the  schooner's  boats  were  at  the  time 


47 


iO 


20 


30 


40 


^o 


63 


al)M<'iit  from  tli<>  vessel  enpif;ed  in  killing  seals.  I  si);nnlk>(1 
tliis  fiict  to  Captain  Abbey  and  he  directed  me  to  seize  the 
vessel,  wliieh  I  did.  and  the  "Corwin"  took  ns  in  tow. 

Q.  Do  you  retoguiiie  these  papers? — A.  I  do.  This  paper 
marked  (Kx.  1)  is  the  certifieate  of  registry  of  the  schooner 
"Carolena."  of  N'ietoria.  H.  (-.  (Said  eertlticate  is  dated 
Manli  'Jlst.  1S70.  and  represents  said  schooner  as  of  8.1))() 
)(»ns  burden,  and  owned  by  Francis  Armstrong,  of  Victoria, 
H.  r.).  This  ])aiK'r  uuirked  (Kx.  J)  is  the  bill  of  health  of  said 
schooner.  (Said  l»ill  of  lu'altli  is  dated  at  N'ictoria,  H.  <•., 
May  l!Mh.  ISISG.  and  reprewnts  said  schooner  "Carolena"  as 
then  ready  to  depai-t  for  Hering  Sea  and  Okhotsk  Sea  and 
other  places  beyond  the  Sea.  with  James  Ogilvie,  master,  and 
eU'ven  jtersons,  including  said  master.)  This  paper  marked 
(K.\.  Kl  is  the  coasting  license  of  said  schooner.  (Said  li- 
cense is  in  tile  usual  form,  to  James  ()gilvi(\  master  of  the 
schooner  "Carolena,"  dated  at  Victoria.  15.  ('..  Feb.  Kith,  IHHti, 
and  in  terms  expires  on  the  .'Ulth  day  of  June,  1S8(».)  This 
l>aiMT  marked  (Kx.  L)  is  the  clearance  of  said  schooner.  (Said 
clearance  is  for  sjiid  scho<mer  as  of  .'U.90  tons,  navigated  with 
eleven  men,  James  Ogilvie.  master,  bound  for  Pacific  Ocean, 
Hering  Sea  and  <3khotsk  Sea,  on  a  fishing  and  hunting  vov- 
age,  and  is  dated  at  Victoria.  K.C,  May  I'Jth,  18%.)  All  of 
which  jtapers  were  found  on  board  the  "Carolena"  at  the  time 
of  seizure  and  taken  possession  of  by  me. 

Q.  State  how  many  men  the  "Carolena"  had  on  board  as 
crew  when  seized. — A.  Thirtifu  or  fourteen. 

Q.  State  whether  this  is  a  reasonable  number  of  men  for 
ordinary  purposes  of  commerce  and  navigation? — A.  It  is  an 
unusually  large  nimiber  for  that  purpose  on  a  vessel  of  that 
size. 

JOHN  C.  CANTWELL, 
3rd  Lieutenant  V.  S.  R.  M. 

Subscribed  and  sworn  to  before  me  this  !)th  day  of  Sept«'m- 
her.  A.l).  ll>!|S(j,  after  having  been  read  over  by  me  to  deiio- 
n(  lit. 

(SKAL.)  ANDREW  T.  LEWIS, 

Clerk  r.  S.  Dist.  Court. 

TIh'U  John  V.  Rhodes  is  examined,  and  he  says: 

.John  I'.  Rhodes,  being  duly  sworn,  deposes  anl  says: 

Q.  State  your  name,  age  and  occupation. — A.  John  I'. 
Rhodes  Ineut.  V.  S.  Revenue  Marine,  and  at  present  on  duty 
on  the  r.  S.  revenue  steamer  "Corwin,''  and  over  tli(>  age  of 
111  years. 

(^  State  what  arms  and  annnunition  were  seized  on  the 
schooner  "<"arolena"  at  the  time  of  her  seizure. — .\.  4  rities, 
1  mu.Hket.  .")  shotguns,  171  shotgun  cartridges,  I?;':?  rilie  lar- 
t ridges.  Hi  bags  buckshot,  ]  bag  of  bullets,  4(»  bags  of  wads, 
21  boxes  wads,  in  boxes  primers,  IJ  boxes  caps,  1)1  lbs. 
powdei". 

(>.  Were  there  any  nautical  instruments  seized  on  the  Car- 
oh-ija  except  what  is  included  in  the  general  iuventorv"' — A. 
1  octant.  1  quadrant. 

Q- — What  has  become  of  this  projMM-ty?  A. — It  has  all 
been  delivered  to  the  V.  S.  Marshal  at  Sitka,  and  is  now  in  his 
custody. 

JOHN  U.  RHODES. 

Subscribed  and  sworn  to  before  me  this  9th  day  of  Sep- 
tember. A.I).  188G,  after  having  been  read  over  by.  me  to 
deponent. 

(SEAL.)  ANDREW  T.  LEWIS, 

tnerk  r.  S.  Dist.  Court. 

Mr.  Peters:— There  is  a  witness  named  Douglas,  to  whose 
evidence  I  wish  particularly  to  call  the  attention  of  the 
Commissioners  at  this  time. 


r" 


20 


,S« 


-Mr.  Ditkiiiso?):— (H'  <oui«c.  in  so  t'iir  iis  llic  t-xcciilivc  docii- 
iiM'iil  prcsciils  tin-  stjilciiu'iilH  of  llic  otliccrs  of  llic  "rorwin" 
ill  iiialviiit;  (lie  sci/jiic,  iIh-ic  is  no  i|u<-slioii  wliiitcvcr  tliiil  iiiv 
Iriciids  art'  ciitirlcd  to  read  it;  bnl  when  lliov  lai«'  any  otlicr 
witncsH.  and  read  iiis  icstiiiiony  as  evidence  lieie,  nu'iely  lie- 
cause  it  is  in  an  executive  dociniieiit,  in  wliicli  the  I'resident 
siilmiits  certain  ilociinienls  to  ('onf^ress.  we  say  tliat  tlie 
liiited  States  ace  not  bound  by  the  stateineiit.  and  that  it 
will  be  contrary  to  the  jmrposes  of  tlie  i'onveiition.  if  they 
are  suffered  to  put  in  tlie  evidence  of  any  witness,  to  make 
tlieic  case,  from  a  co|)y  of  his  testimony  jtriiited  in  an  exe- 
LMtive  documen,.  or  in  a  newspaper.  Tlie  laiijiose  of  the 
bidding  of  the  Convention  is  to  liav«'  such  witnesses  as  they 
ilioose  to  ]>rodu(  c  pul  under  oath,  and  examined  before  the 
<.'oui't.  \Ve  caiMiof  be  bound  by  the  testimony  of  a  stran- 
^^'1',  by  that  of  a  mere  employee,  or  that  of  a  jiilot  wlio  may 
liap]ieii  to  have  been  called  in  the  I>i.«trict  t'oiirt  td"  the 
Cnited  Slates  at  Alaska.  If  it  makes  at  all  for  the  case  of 
tireat  liritain  upon  the  assessment  of  damap's.  or  upon  any 
otiier  material  fact  in  the  healing'  befcue  the  t'ommission  on 
these  ipiestions,  we  are  certainly  not  bound  by  it,  simply  be- 
cause the  I'resident  transmitted  all  tlie  documents  ]iro  and 
con — whatever  was  in  the  Kxecutive  Office  or  any  executive 
department  of  llie  (iovernment — to  Congress.  Uy  so  doin);. 
he  did  not  certify  that  ilie  Inited  States  took  any  state- 
ments of  men  such  as  this,  or  the  statemeiil  of  any  man  who 
writes  a  letter,  or  who  testitles.  as  the  truth.  I'ossibly  my 
friend  proposes  lo  jio  on  and  read  the  tesliuiony  of  the  wit- 
nesses for  the  ••( 'aroleiia'"  in  iIk'  .Maska  Court. 

.Mr.  I'etei's: — I  do  not. 

-Mr.  lUckiiisoii :  — I'.ul  we  submit  that  we  are  not  bound  by 
the  slatemeiit  of  any  part\'  on  the  ^'eiieral  subject  of  sealing, 
or  as  to  any  other  mailer  vvhicli  is  material  on  the  issue  here, 
simply  because  il  is  jiriiited  in  llie  <'Xeciitive  document  trans- 
mittiiiLT  infoimaiioii. 


40 


50 


60 


^Ir.  I'elers: — 1  do  iKil  for  ii  moiiieni  contend  becam-c  a  let- 
ter or  any  other  |iioc<'ediiiy  is  piinied  in  an  execu- 
tive docuiiKMil.  liial  iheicfKrc,  il  bcc:  m 's  evidence 
iis  against  the  ( io\enimeiil  tiial  allows  il  lo  be 
priiit<<»^.  Sucli  a  ciiiitinlicrii  could  mil  be  made;  but 
I  do  submit  lliis:  when  llie  rnili  d  Slates  (iovern- 
iiii'iil  take  certain  ](r'icec(liiios  a^aiiisl  a  slii|»  of  ours, 
I  have  a  iii;lil  lo  slmw  wlia!  those  iiroceediiiffs  were,  what 
e\idence  I  hey  i'ii(ler«(l  aiiainsl  us,  and  on  what  evidence 
iliey  coiidemnel  us.  1  ;iMi  lakin;;  llie  exidence  that  they 
(hose  lo  I'ely  o!i  Iheinsehes.  II  may  lia\e  been  ti'iie.  or  it 
may  not  have  been  irMe,  I  am  not  uoiii;;  lu  iinpiire  iiilo  that 
tad.  Now.  ile-n.  wlieii  we  come  and  say  ilial  the  condemn- 
ation should  not  have  been  made,  we  have  the  rij^ht  to  lake 
lliebellelil  of  l!ie  evidelici-  Iliey  ihemselves  j^ave.  I  do  ikiI 
lor  a  nioiiieiii  contend  Ilia;  I  can  use  llie  evidence  that  we 
};ave  before  Ilia;  iu(|nii-y;  bill  here  they  broiii;lil  a  proceedinji- 
atrainsi  our  sliiji.  tlie\-  I'alled  certain  witnesses  to  jirove  what 
that  ship  ha<l  done.  and.  so  far  as  thai  is  concerned,  those 
were  facts  wliicli  Iliey  Ihemselves  allege  lo  be  facts.  We 
say,  "You  alleiji'  Kliose  lo  he  facts":  now,  llieii.  lakiti).'  the 
facts  as  you  allege  lliem,  we  have  the  ri^lil  to  show  that 
those  were  llie  tacts  iillefred  by  brilijiiny;  witnesses  to  ]U'ove 
them. 


^Ir.  l>ickiiison:--1{iil.  may  il  please  the  Coiii'l,  the  fad  of 
the  seizure  for  sealiii;;'  is  admitted;  i|ie  fad  of  the  seizure 
of  the  ship,  caivo  and  ei|uipmeiil  is  admilled.  Now,  il  is 
unnecessary  for  my  friend  In  show  wlial  facts  were  pre- 
sented, because  llie  'rribmial  of  .\ibilralion  al  I'aris  found 
the  fad  ilial.  if  Iliis  was  a  Krilisli  vessi'l.  llie  seizure  was 
illegal  and  the  condeiiinaiioii   was  illej;al.  There  is  no  doubt 


49 


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iibout  it.  It  is  iiiiut'cctisary  for  my  friciulH  to  hIiow  tliat  ovit 
npiin,  and  tliut  question  of  whctlK-r  that  seizim-  was  l«'j;al 
oi-  illfgal  is  loniluded  by  the  ('onv«'nt;on  itself,  and  your 
llonoui-s  Ko  into  no  i|uestion  wliieh  is  co'ielnded  by  tlie  Con- 
vention. You  e4innot,  because  under  the  second  ( lause  of  Ar- 
ticle III.  you  arir  empowered  to  administer  and  receive  every 
(lueslitm  of  fact  not  found  by  the  Tribunal  of  Arbitration. 
That  Tribunal  (tf  Arbitration  settled  the  question  of  the  seiz- 
ure, s(»  far  as  Hiilish  vessels  were  concerned,  as  illegal.  When 
they  settled  that  she  was  seized  beycuid  the  lejial  distance 
from  land,  they  have  settled  that  the  condemnation  must 
therefore  have  been  illegal.  Those  (lueslions  are  adjusted,  and, 
if  she  is  a  Itritish  ves^sel,  they  have  settled  that  tlie  sole 
(juestiou  remaining  is  as  to  the  damage  that  accrued  to  the 
owner. 

Mr.  I'eters; — ' )u  thsit  very  j)oint  it  would  appear  that  this 
I  vidence  must  be  all()w»>d.  \ow  let  us  refer  back  for  a  mo- 
ment. I  hav(^  already  read  the  evidence  of  Mr.  Uhodes, 
which  evidence  was  given  on  behalf  of  the  I'nited  States 
and  adopted  by  them.  Mr.  Uhodes  states  that  there  were 
certain  ritles,  certain  ann)iunition,  and  certain  other  things 
seized.  Does  mv  learned  friend  contend  that  I  canntit  read 
that. 

Mr.  Dickiusoo: — I  do  not  object  to  that. 

Mr.  I'eters: — Is  not  that  just  as  objectionable  as  the  evi- 
dence of  Mr.  Douglas?  On  what  ground  is  the  one  admis- 
sible and  the  other  not  admissible?  It  is  admissible  because 
it  is  evidence  tendered  by  the  United  States,  and  whether  ten- 
dered by  direct  authority  or  not,  it  must  be  taken  to  have 
been  done  because  the  ease  was  conducted  by  some  i>erson 
acting  on  behalf  of  the  Distri(;t  Attorney.  That  evidence 
was  tendered  by  them,  adopted  by  the  I'nited  States  and  the 
condemnation  mad«'  on  that  evidence  was  adopted.  Now, 
my  learned  friend  says,  with  regard  to  the  evid«'nce  of 
Khodes,  that  it  is  adir.issibh'.  Why?  It  is  admissible  be- 
cause the  I'nited  States  thems<'lves  gave  that  evidence,  and 
they  would  not  have  given  it  iinless  they  believed  that  the 
evidence  was  genuine  and  we  ar<'  allowed  to  take  advantage' 
of  it. 

Now,  we  come  to  the  next  (|Uestion:  My  learned  friend 
says  there  are  certain  things  that  have  been  admitted  and 
found  by  the  Tribunal  of  Arbitration  that  we  <annot  in<^uire 
into  any  further.  So  far  I  am  agreed;  but  there  are  cer- 
tain things  not  found  by  that  Tribunal.  They  have  not 
touched  the  question  of  compensation,  the  value  of  things 
taken,  nor  the  value  of  the  danuige  done.  This  very  evi- 
dence of  Mr.  Uhode-s'  which  I  have  read,  is  valuable  on  that 
point.  It  shows  the  articles  taken,  which  was  not  found  bv 
the  Paris  Tribunal.  This  evidence  of  Mr.  Douglas,  that  I 
am  about  to  read,  goes  to  the  very  same  point.  We  are  not 
here  to  try  over  again  the  ([uestions  found  before  the  I'aris 
Tribunal.  We  will  take  full  advantage  of  those  tindingij.but 
we  have  to  show  the  conse(pu'nces  of  the  acts  done  in  con- 
nection with  th(>m.  We  can  only  prove  that  by  showing 
their  own  view  of  it.  and  T  submit  that  I  can  read  that  »'vi- 
dt'uce. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — The  Douglas  testimony,  as  I  iinderstan<1 
it,  goes  into  the  question  of  fur  seal  life,  "the  method  of  tak- 
ing the  seal,  and  so  on,  as  your  Honours  will  see  on  looking 
at  that  testimony. 

The  romniissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majestv:— Is  this 
class  of  testimony  voluminous. 

Mr.  Peters: — There  is  only  one  witness. 

Mr.  Dickinson— I  stiggest  that  your  Honours  hear  it,  and 
i 


BBH, 


lO 


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5© 


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lit! 


50 

then  .vour  IlonourH  will  wc  that  It  cannot  pooHibly  bind  tlie 
Vnitt'd  HtatcH,  iind  tln-rofoiv  cannut  be  ovidenc*'  her*'. 

Mr.  IVttMH; — I  would  like  to  make  this  remark:  Vou  are  sit- 
ting not  HM  an  ordinary  t-oui-t  of  justice,  but  aa  a  ConimiH- 
sion  to  inveHti$;ale  tlieHe  matterH,  with  the  poHHibilit.v  that, 
in  eaHe  of  ditferen«'e,  it  may  hav*-  to  n«>  to  a  third  arbitrator; 
and,  with  that  view  of  the  rase,  ou>;ht  the  rule  not  to  be 
adopted  rather  to  take  in  everytliiuK  tluit  may,  by  any  fair 
leaHonable  arKumenr.  be  conHidt-red  aH  beariuK  upon  the 
(|ueHtions  l)etween  (lie  parties,  so  that  hereafter  if  such  an 
unfortunate  thing  should  ortiir  as  a  reference  to  a  third  arbi- 
trator, the  record  would  be  complete  on  everything  that 
either  party  contends  is  of  value?  In  addition  to  that,  thiH 
very  record  wa^*  in.  and  made  a  part  of,  the  case  of  the 
United  States  at  the  Taris  Triluinal. 

The  <.'onimiasioner  on  the  part  of  the  Tnited  States:  -L,t 
me  Hsk  you  the.se  questions:  We  are  autliorized  to  r'ceive 
all  suitable,  authentic  testimony.  You  are  otTcring  here 
what  ia  really  hearsay  evidence  upon  a  certain  proposition. 
Have  not  you  a  better  class  of  evidence  on  that  same  propo- 
sition? l>o  you  want  to  ojien  the  door  which  will  after- 
wards be  used  to  flood  this  Commission  with  an  immense 
amount  of  documentary  evidence?  We  do  not  know  how 
much  there  may  be  of  it. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  submit  that  this  whole  record  is  proper  evi- 
dence to  be  laid  before  this  Tribun.il.  The  record  of  the  pro- 
ceeding which  the  United  States  (lovernment  took  against 
this  ship  and  everything  in  thai  record.  Tt  is  evidence  which 
they  themselves  put  forward,  and  which  they  themselves  ad- 
opted in  the  most  formal  manner  by  adopting  the  condemna- 
tion made  upon  that  evidence.  There  can  be  no  better  class 
of  evidence.  And  if  they  come  forward  and  allege  and  at- 
tempt to  prove  that  such  and  such  facts  did  exist,  surely 
that  can  b«'  used  against  them. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — 1  did 
not  intend  to  have  you  argue  the  admissibility  of  this  evi- 
d«'nce  in  the  sti-ict  sens*'.  I  think  that  it  is  ])robably  the 
view  of  the  Commissioners  that  wliatever  evidente  g<M>8 
in  here,  especially  in  consideration  of  the  fact  that  there  is 
a  jiossibility  of  an  umpire  is  largely  under  the  control  of 
Counsel  on  hotli  sid«'s.  1  think  that  is  tlie  view  of  the  Com- 
missioners, and  we  will  sift  it  oul  to  suit  ourselveu  hereafter. 
My  point  was  whether  yoii  deemed  it  necessary  to  open  the 
door  ill  this  way.  Do  you  consider  that  if  A  B  brings  a  suit 
against  C  I),  and  there  is  afterwards  another  suit  between 
the  same  parties,  that  you  can  put  into  the  s<'cond  suit  all  the 
evidence  that  .\   U  offered  in  tlie  first  suit? 

Mr.  Peters: — 1  cannot  altogdher  agree  that  it  stands  in 
that  position.  I  submit  that  in  reality  the  proceedings  here 
are  but  a  continuation  of  the  proceedings  at  the  Paris  Tri- 
bunal. 

The  Commissioni  r  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — 1  did 
not  intend  on  my  part  to  ask  yon  to  argue  it.  The  Commis- 
sioners are  very  much  of  the  opinion  that  they  have  got  to 
h't  <'ounsel  <'ontroI  the  evidence  that  will  come  in.  Of  course 
there  may  l>e  stmie  things  that  Ihe  Commissioners  will  seee 
are  iniidmissible  .  I  merely  ask  you  the  question  whether 
ycni  are  not  o]>ening  a  very  wide  door. 

Mr.  Pet<'rs:— :  will  say  that,  so  far  as  we  are  concerned,  it 
may  ]iossibly  open  the  door  in  the  way  you  suggest;  but  T 
can  assure  the  <'ommissi<mers  tliat  it  is  not  our  intention  to 
fI«M)d  the  (Commission  with  a  lot  of  evidence  of  that  descrip- 
ti.m. 

Tlu-  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States;— If 


30 


5' 
voii  ojM'ii  tho  door,  I  In-  oilier  side  coiiics  in    thiit    wiiik'    door. 

Ml'.  DitkiiiHoii:— TliiH  niiplii-H  to  ilw  luibils  of  tlu'  fursful, 
and  if  it  is  niutt-rial  wo  can  put  in  four  volunicw,  .vour  Ihwi- 
«)ur,  HH  to  tlu*  luibitH  of  tlie  fur  m-al.  to  nhow  tliat  l)ou},'hiMs 
iH  wronjj.  Now,  rcwrvinfj  tiic  objection.  I  sulunit  as  a  way 
on)  that  HiIh  teHtiniony  of  lUmniaMH  be  read  and  your  Hon- 
our.s  will  H«'e  where  w*-  will  come. 

The  ConiniiHHioner  on  the  piirt  of  the  I'nited  Slates: — That 
10  leaven  it  very  much  like  the  case  of  a  vchhcI  in  which  I  was 
concerned,  where  a  tufj-boat  >jot  her  on  the  rocks,  and  the 
(»wner  of  the  vessel  claimed  she  was  "lioirHcd."'  We  liad  a 
]ihotop;ra|)h  showing  she  was  not  "ho^ip'd."  The  oiher  side 
objected,  and  the  Judije  said,  he  would  have  to  look  at  it  to 
see  whether  it  was  admissible  or  not.  However,  we  are  both 
agreed  that  Counsel  must  prove  their  own  case. 

The  f'onimissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty:— And  i)rob- 
ably  at  a  later  staj^e  we  would  be  helped  by  fuller  arguments 
20      on  the  law  points  involved  as  bearing  on  the  evidence. 
Mr.  Peters: — This  is  the  statement  he  mak«'8- 

J.  H.  Douglass  being  duly  sworn  deposes  and  says: 

il.  State  your  name,  age  and  occupation. — A.  J.  H.  Doug- 
lass; am  over  the  age  of  21  years;  am  a  jnlot  in  the  revenue- 
marine  service  of  the  I'.  S.,  and  have  been  so  for  wven  years 
last  past.  ]  am  now.  and  on  the  first  of  August,  IH.Sti.  was, 
l»ilot  on  the  revenue  steamer  "Corwin." 

Q.  State  what  experience  you  have  had  in  tlu-  fur-sealing 
business  and  your  knowledge  of  the  habits  of  the  fur-seal. — 
A.  I  have  been  cruising  for  more  than  15  years  oil"  and  on 
in  Alaskan  waters,  always  as  an  officer  or  pilot,  and  have 
visited  the  I'ribylotf  Islands,  St.  I'aul  and  St.  (ieorge,  several 
hundred  times,  and  am  j)erfectly  familiar  with  the  sealing 
business  as  conducted  on  tlit»S4'  islands  and  understand  the 
migrating  habits  of  the  fur-seal.  From  about  the  1st  of 
May  to  about  the  1st  of  July  of  each  year  the  fur-seal  is 
migrating  north  through  the  Tnimak  and  Akutan  passes  t<> 
these  islands  for  breeding  purp(>8es.  They  go  to  no  other 
lo  jtlace  in  the  known  world  except  these  islands  and  ('oi)j»er 
Islands  for  breeding  purposes.  After  the  breeding  season 
of  about  a  month  they  begin  to  migrate  south,  and  until  in 
Xovember  of  each  year  are  migrating  south  through  Hering 
Sea.  During  this  season  from  May  till  Novenilx'r  the  fur- 
seal  are  plenty  in  the  waters  adjacent  to  the  I'ribylotf  Islands 
and  are  migrating  to  and  fi-om  tli'S(>  islands,  and  are  at  all 
times  very  plenty  b«'tv/<'eii  rai;ni.k  pass  and  said  islands  in 
a  track  about  .'{0  miles  wide,  wiich  seems  to  be  their  high- 
way to  and  from  said  islands.  The  schooner  't'arolena"  and 
50  her  boats  when  seized  were  directly  iu  this  tract.  I  was 
present  at  time  of  seizure. 

J.  H.  DOrc.LASS. 

Subscribed  and  sworn  to  before  me  this  !»tli  day  of  SepI em- 
ber, A.  I>.  IHJSt),  after  having  been  read  over  by  me  lo  depo- 
nent. ' 

(Sr.AL.)  ANDREV'  T.  LEWIS, 

Clerk  r.  S.  Dist.  "ourl. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  suppose  to  preserve  our  rights,  may  it 
(5o      jdease  your  Honours,  when  a  class  of  testimony  wiiich  may 
embrace  a  great  many  volumes,  is  <(tfered,  we  should  inter 
pose  our  view  agaiuwi  it  upon  the  record,  very  brieflly. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — This  I  un- 
derstand is  objected  to. 

Mr  Teters:— The  next  witness  called  is  Thomas  Singleton. 
He  is  asked  to  state  his  name  and  so  forth. 


■.r^ 


^ 


lO 


52 

ThoiitiiH  KiiiKli'toii,  iM-iii^  (lulv  Hwoiii.  (It'jHiHfH  and  wivh' 

il  Htiitf  your  naiiu'.  iik<'  "«"•  occuputhm.— A.  Tlionia*  Hiii- 
jilt'tdii;  ;iiii  o\<'r  tile  ani'  ol  L'l  .vt'aiH;  aiwl  am  a  seaman.  Wan 
fiiililovcd  on  tln'  stt-amer  'Torwin"  on  tlit*  IkI  day  of  AuKHHt. 
1SS«J.  \vln'n  tlu'  "<'arol('na"  was  sflzt'd.  I  wan  Hcnt  on  board 
the  •Tiirolfna"  rijilif  after  the  seiznii'.  and  naw  a  number  of 
dead  furseal  on  deck,  and  some  of  tlieni  had  f'lr  on  them 
Saw  aim)  some  fresli  fur  seal  Mkins  in  the  lioats. 

THOMAS  SINtJLKTOX. 

Subscribed  and  sworn  to  before  me  liiis  Hth  day  »>f  Sep- 
teniber,  iHsti.  after  iiavinu:  been  read  over  bv  nip  to  deponent. 

(SHAI..»  AM»m:\V  T.  l.KWIS. 

("leik  r.  S.  Mist.  ("ouit. 


40 


"  Mr.     IVters:— I     am     putting     thin     in     in     show     that 

at  that  time  tliey  were  actually  catching  sealH.  and 
I  put  it  in  as  the  best  evidence  we  can  {n't  on 
tlial  j>oint.  for  tlie  rt-asou  that  we  «au  nddu«-e  no 
pei-Mou    «)n    board    at    the   time    of    Hei/jire.      Then  I  wish 

*®  to  put  in  an  amended  libel,  jiaffe  lili.  For  some  reason  the 
IHHtrict  Attorney  for  Alaska  tiled  an  amended  libel.  I  wish 
to  put  that  libel  ill  |iarticiilarly  refeirinn  to  that  part  of  It 
wheiv  it  sets  out  what  articles  were  seized.  The  statements  s«'t 
out  in  the  amended  libel  are  more  full  than  in  the  original 
libel. 

On  September  2(ttli.  188(i,  was  tiled  the  followinj;  amended 
libel  of  information: 

30      IN  THK   INITKI)   STATKS   DISTUKT  t.'Ol'FtT   IN    ANI> 
FOR  TlIF    niSTKMT  OF   AI.ASKA.    rXITRD 
STAfKS  OF  .\MKmcA.       AltJlST. 
SI'KflAI.  TKfm.  ISSC. 

To  the  Honorable  Lafayelt(>  Dawson, 

.hid{j;e  of  said  District  Court: 

The  amended  libel  of  infoniiaticui  of  .M.  D.  Mall,  attorney 
for  the  Inited  States  for  the  District  of  .Maska,  who  prose 
cutes  on  behalf  of  said  I'nited  States.  an<l  beiiifi  i»res«'nt  her* 
in  court  in  his  own  pro]H'r  person,  in  I  lie  name  and  im  behalf 
of  the  said  Inite*!  States,  allejjes  and  informs  as  follows,  to 
wit : 

That  <".  .\.  Abbey,  an  otticer  in  the  revenue  marine  service 
of  tile  I'liited  States,  duly  commissioned  by  tlie  President  of 
tin  I'niled  States,  in  command  of  the  Inited  States  revenue 
cutter  '•("orwin."  and  now  on  special  duty  in  the  waters  of 
the  district  (d"  Alaska,  heretofore,  to  wit,  on  the  1st  day  of 
.\u^;ust,  l.s.'^fi,  within  the  liiails  of  Alaska  Teiritoi-y,  and  in 
the  waters  tliereof,  and  wiliiiii  tlie  civil  iiiid  judicial  district 
of  .Maska.  le  wit,  within  ilie  waters  of  that  portion  of  He- 
rinfj;  S4'a  belontjinft  to  the  Inited  States  and  siii<l  district,  on 
waters  navijrable  from  tlie  sea  by  vessels  of  ten  or  more  tons 
burden,  seized  the  sdioonei'  "farolena."  her  tackle.  a|i])ai'el, 
boats.  car<;o.  and  furniture,  tieiiii;  the  property  of  some  jier- 
son  or  ]iers(ins  unknown  to  said  allorney.  The  said  jiroperty 
is  more  |i;irticularly  <lescribed  as  follows,  to  wit: 

1  schooner  "Carolena."  of  N'icioria.  H.C.  1  canoes,  1  yawl, 
carpenter's  tools,  clock,  chronometer,  nautical  instruments, 
^  sails  and  running;  ^ear,  '2  anchors,  ropr>s.  twine,  oars,  ])addles, 
rowlocks,  etc.;  lamps,  tanks,  provisions.  (iSo  fur-seal  skins, 
12  pup  seal  skins,  1  hair  seal  skin,  4  ritles.  .">  shotguns,  and 
ammunition  for  same,  and  all  other  propei-ty  found  upon  or 
appurtenant  to  said  scli<Kiiier. 

That  said  <".  .\.  Abbey  was  then  and  there  duly  ccHiimis- 
sioned  and  autliiM-i/.ed  by  the  projK'r  department  of  the  T^nited 
States  to  make  said  seizure. 

That  all  of  said  property  was  then  and  there  seized  as  for- 
feited to  the  Inited  Stales  for  the  following  cftupeg; 


50 


>'i 


M 


■% 


I 


10 


20 


30 


40 


^o 


60 


S3 

Tlinf  BiiUl  vcHW'l.  Imt  caiitaln.  oflltcrs  and  ii««w  were  tlion 
niitl  tht'H'  found  t'lijtnm'd  in  kllliiiK  furwiilH  within  llic  liinitH 
of  AiuHlia  Tcniior.v.  and  in  »ln'  waK-iH  ii:t'r»'<»f.  in  violalimi 
of  wction  I'.dVi  of  tin-  Ui-viHcd  S(alii«i'K  of  lln'  lnit»'d  Ktatt'M. 

That  all  the  Haid  jiropt'it.v,  aft<'r  lM'iii>r  wizt'd  an  afon-wiid. 
wan  brouj{hl  into  (Iw-  jioit  of  OnnahiHiia,  in  stiid  T«'rri(oiT.  and 
dflivcrt'd  into  the  l»«M'|»in>r  or  iHaar  AndcrscMi.  a  dt-pnty  I'.S. 
mai-Hhal  of  this  dintrict,  with  the  cxcfption  of  the  wiid  ainiH 
and  ammunition,  which  lattiT  were  broutrht  into  the  jKUt  of 
Sltlia.  in  Haid  diHtiict.  and  turned  over  to  tht-  V  H.  marnhal 
of  thiH  district,  and  all  of  Haid  property  in  now  withii  the 
judicial  district  of  Alaska.  United  HIateH  of  America. 

And  tlie  Haid  M.  I».  Hall,  attorney  as  aforesaid,  further  in- 
forms and  alletfes; 

That  on  the  Ist  day  of  Aiijjust.  IHSti,  .lanien  Mlake  and  cer- 
tain other  persons  whone  names  are  to  said  ['.  S.  attovney 
unknown,  who  were  then  and  thi-re  ennat^ed  on  board  of  the 
said  sdiooner  "Caroiena."  under  the  direction  and  i>y  the 
authority  of  James  (>nilvie.  tlien  and  there  master  of  said 
schooner,  enjjaired  in  killin);  and  did  kill,  in.the  Territory  and 
DiBtricI  of  Alaska,  and  in  the  waterH  thereof,  to  wit.  2»t  fur- 
seals.  in  violation  of  secti(m  lit'))!  of  (he  |{«>vise«l  Statutes  of 
the  I'nited  States,  in  such  cases  made  and  provided. 

That  the  said  «iM.')  fur  seal  skins,  1'-'  pu|>-seal  skins,  and  1 
hairstnil  skin,  and  other  noods  so  seized  on  board  of  s»iid 
schcxmer  "darolena"  constituted  tlw  car^jo  of  said  scho(mer 
at  the  time  of  the  killing  of  said  fur  seals  and  at  the  time  of 
said  seizure. 

And  said  attorney  saith  that  all  and  siiiH'ilar  the  jiremises 
were  and  are  true  and  within  the  admiralty  and  maritime 
jurisdicticm  «if  the  T'nited  States  and  of  this  lionoral)le  court, 
and  that  by  reason  thereof,  and  liy  force  of  the  statutes  in 
such  cases  made  and  pr<»vided,  the  aforementicun'd  schooner, 
bein}{  a  vessel  of  over  20  tons  iuirden,  and  her  said  ta<kie, 
apparel,  boats,  car^jo  and  furniture.  l)ecanie  and  are  forft'ited 
to  the  use  of  the  I'nited  Statt-s. 

Wherefore  the  'f.i'ul  attorney  juays  that  the  usual  process 
and  moniii(m  of  this  honorable  court  issue  in  this  behalf 
afiainst  said  schooner  and  all  said  liereinbi'f(»re  describe*! 
property  to  enforce  the  f(M'fei(ure  thereof,  an<l  re<iuirinf;  no- 
tice to  be  niven  ;o  all  persons  to  a|ipear  and  show  cause,  on 
the  return  day  of  said  j)rocess,  wliy  said  forfeiture  should 
not  be  decreed,  and  that  after  due  ju-oceedinfis  are  had, 
all  of  said  projierly  be  adjudp;ed,  (h-creed,  and  condemned  as 
forfeited  to  the  use  of  the  Inited  States,  and  for  s.ich  other 
relief  as  niav  be  jtroper  in  the  i»remises. 

M.  1).  HALL. 
V.  S.  hist.  Attorney  for  the  District  of  Alaska. 

Dated  September  litlth,  IHHti". 

I  only  put  that  in  for  tlie  purjtose  of  shewinfj;  in  detail  the 
articles  which  they  themselves  allejie  tliat  they  had  sei'/ed.  I 
do  not  propoBe  to  read  the  rest  of  the  do<-um<'Ut  becau'^e  it  is 
merely  of  a  formal  nature. 

Having  rc'ad  th<'  ]»art  ot  the  record  that  I  deem  material,  I 
would  like  to  refer  the  commissioners  to  that  part  of  the  ••o'-- 
re8ponden<e  which  we  deem  material  to  this  en>iuiry.  I  take 
that  correspondence  from  the  same  executive  document  I 
have  aln'ndy  referred  to. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Between  tlie  Ctoverninenls?  *"..!L. 

Mr.  Peters: — Between  the  Governments. 

The  Commissioner  on  (he  j>art  of  tlie  United  Stat«>s:— Now 
Mr.  Peters  I  understood  you  to  say  that  you  intended  to  offer 
this  en  bloc  after  yon  pot  throuffh  reading  it. 

Mr.  Peters: — Yes,  en  bloc.     1  propose  after  1  liave  read  the 


lO 


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54 

rorri-H|iont1<-iM'(>  to  tcnilfr  it  t'li  Moc  iih  niarkiMl.  M,v  It'iinuMl 
frit'iitl  Mill  proliiibl.v  iiot<-  if  lli<'r«>  In  iiii.v  ohjctiioii  iih  I  pi 
iiliniH,  III  oiiit'r  h»  li«>  Hiiic  to  lie  corn-rt  I  will  H'U-v  li»  tlicm' 
li,v  iiuiiilirr.  tli«'  ri>|MM-t('r  tiikiiii;  il«)Wii  the  iiiinihfr  ito  tliiil  tlicro 
niii  Im-  no  iiiistiilit'. 

Xo.  1  Ih  II  letter  from  Hir  li.  Hiukvillc  Wi-Ht  to  Mr.  lliivnnl, 
«liit(«l  till-  27tli  of  Hfpt Im'I-,  IMHt;; 

Kir  L.  M.  Sackvllli'  \\\mt  to  Mr.  llii.viird. 
NViiNliiiintoii,  Hcptciiibcr  IJT.  IMSti.  (Hccclvfd  Hcptt'iiilMM*  2S.) 
Kir:  1  litivi'  tin-  Ikhiim-  to  iiiforin  .von  tiitit  ilor  MiijvHt.v'H 
(iovt'i-nnwiit  liiivc  ivci'lvcd  a  tclcgriiiii  from  tlu'  oomniiinder- 
in  fliii>f  of  llcr  MiijcHtvV  naviil  forn'H  on  tin'  i'acitic  Htation 
rt'HpcrtiiiK  tlii>  alleged  H*'i/.nr*>  of  tlir*>4'  MritiHli  (Ndiimbian 
wal  HcliooncrH  liv  tlic  I'liitcd  KtatcH  rcvcnnt'  crnlwr  "Corwiii," 
and  I  am  in  coiiNfiinfiic*'  iiiNlrin-ti'd  to  r*M|ii('Ht  t«)  lu'  fiirniHlMMl 
witii  liny  ]iarti<iilai-H  wliicli  tli«>  Tnitod  KtiitoH  (Jovcrninont 
ina.v  poHHt'HK  rclaliv*'  to  lliiH  occnrrcnit'. 
I   have.  etc.. 

L.  K.  K.XrKVIM.p]  WKKT. 

That  l<>ttii'  WiiH  t'ollowcd  b.v  niunln'r  L',  dated  Hit'  LMhI  of 
<ti'tolM'r,  ISSti,  and  nearly  a  montli  liaviiif;  elapHed  before  it 
waH  answered. 

\o.  2. 

Kir  L.  K.  Kaekvllle  West  to  Mr.  lliiyard. 
WasliinKton.  October  LM.  ISSti.  (HeeeiviHl  OetolMT  22.) 
Kir:      With   referenee  to  my  note  of  the  27tli   ultimo,  re- 
ipieNtin^  to  be  fnrniHhed    with    any    partifii!:irH    whieh    the 
I'nited  KtateH  (iovernment  may  posHess  relative  to  the  Heiz- 
iire  in  the  Norlli  I'aeitie  waters  of  three  Mritish  Coliimbian 
seal  sehoonei's  by  tlie  I'nited  Ktates  revenue  cruiser  "rorwin," 
and  to  wlii<'li  I  am  willioiit  reply,  I  liave  the  Iioimm'  to  inform 
you  that  I  am  now  instructed  by  the  P'arl  of  Iddes'  •'};''■  ••'''" 
.Majesty's  principal  secretary  of  state  for  forei;-n  atl.ii''-.  to 
protest   in   tlie  name  of   Her  .Majesty's  (iovern..i(  1  1    .  piinst 
such  seizure,  and  to  reserve  all  li^flits  t(>  compensation. 
I  liave,  etc., 

L.  K.  KACKVILLK  WEKT. 

Then  follows  number  '\,  a  letter  friun  the  f<]ari  ot  bl(h-slei|;li 
to  Kir  Kackvilli'  West,  which  is  a  leiifjtliy  letter.  |)erliaps  T 
had  better  read  only  part  of  it: 

\o.  :?. 

•  Karl  of  Iddesleifjh  to  Kir  LJ  K.  Kackville  W.'st. 

Foreign '< )ttice.  <>ct<dier  ;?0,  ISSfi. 
Kir:     ller  Majesty's  (iovernment  are  still  awaiting  a  report 
on  the  result  of  the  application  which  you  wen'  directed  by 
my  dis]iatch  No.  \S\.  of  the  !)th  iiliimo,  ti»  make  to  the  <iov 
eminent  of  the  rniteil  Ktates  for  information  in  rej^ard  to 

d 


* 


Ktates    revenue    cutter 
lers  while  enfjajjed  in  the 

s  in  re;;iird  to  these  seiz- 


tlie  re|M>rted  seizure  by  the  I'nite 
"Corwin"  of  three  <"ana<iian  sc1i(m»: 
pursuit  of  seals  in  Hehrinj;  Kea. 

In  the  meanwhile,  fiirtlier  detai 
ures  have  been  sent  to  this  counlryi,  and  Her  Majesty's  (iov- 
ernment now  c<nisider  it  iiicnnibent  ,on  them  to  brin;;  to  the 
notice  of  the  I'nited  Ktates  (iovernniji'nt  the  facts  of  tlu'  case 
as  they  have  reached  them  from  liritnsh  sources. 

It  appears  that  the  thnf  sch»M)ners.  named  respectively 
the  ."Carolena."  the  "Onward,"  and  the  "Tliornttm,''  were 
tltted  out  in  \'ictoria.  British  Columbia,  for  the  ca])ture  of 
si-als  in  the  Xorthern  Pacific  Ocean,,  adjacent  to  Vanconvt'r's 
Island,  (jueen  f'harlotte  Islands,  and  Alaska. 

Aiconliufj;  to  the  dejiositions  inchtsed  herewith  from  some 
of  the  ollicers  and  men.  these  vessels  were  e,i{^a{;ed  in  the 


of 
it 


■4' 

4 


to 


20 


% 


■^ 


30 


40 


60 


5S 

(•npfliiN'  of  Hcala  in  tin-  o|M'Ii  hcii,  out  (if  Ki>{lit  <>f  laiid.  wln'tt 
tln',v  were  tiikcn  jMww'HMiim  of.  on  or  iiImhii  the  Int  AukiikI 
hiMl.  bv  Ihi-  riiilfd  HtiilfH  ii'Vi'inif  niltcr  'Toiwin"— tin- 
•Tiiioliiia  ■  in  liilitiitlc  't:>M  iioitli.  ioii|;iHi«li'.  \i>H::,A  wcmI  ; 
the  ••Oiiwiini"  in  liititiidf  'lO:'!!'  iiorlli.  loiiKiludr  KIT:.")  w<t»t ; 
mill  ilM'-Tliornton"  in  iilioiil  ilic  Mnnif  liilitiidc  iind  lonKitnd*-. 

Tlic.v  wi'if  nil  lit  11  dintimif  of  inorf  tlian  nixly  niiit'H  from 
the  nt'-arcNt  land  at  lln'  time  of  tlioir  wiziirc.  and  on  »)oinK 
captiir-'d  were  towed  Itv  the  "Coiwin"  to  OunaiaHlia,  wIm'Im- 
they  ,ii"  Mlill  dftainvd.'  Tlii'  iicwk  of  tin-  "('nrolina"  and 
"Thornlon."  witli  tin-  i-xccplion  of  tin-  captain  and  one  nnin 
on  i-acii  vcHW'l  di'taincd  at  tliat  port,  wcrr,  it  ap|>»'arH.  wnt 
b.v  the  Htcanicr  "St.  I'anl"  to  Han  rranriHco.  <"al..  and  tlwn 

ti'inu'd  adrift,  wldU*  tlic  crew  of  tl Onward"  wwv  kept  at 

<tunalaMka. 

\\  tlic  time  of  tln-ir  seizure  tlie  "t'arolina""  had  liHti  Heal 
HkinH  on  board,  tlie  -Tliornton"  4lt4.  and  tlie  "Onward"  1MM». 
and  llu-He  were  detained,  and  wonid  apiHNir-  to  be  Htill  kept 
at  OunaiaHka,  aloni;  with  the  n<liooner«,  li.v  the  Inited  HIatt'H 

HIltluM-itieH. 

AeeitrdinK  to  information  >{iven  in  the  Alankan.  a  newH- 
l»aper  piibliHhed  at  Sitka,  in  the  Territory  of  Alanka.  and 
dattMl  the  4th  Se|»teniber,  IHH«.  it  iw  reported: 

ll.)  That  the  maHter  and  mate  of  tlie  KelMHmer  "Thopnt<m" 
were  brought  for  trial  before  .ludKe  Mawmm.  in  th«>  I'nited 
StateH  DiHtriet  t'ourt  at  Sitka,  on  the  :<t)th  .Vn^iiHt   hiHt. 

(l'»  That  tlie  eviilence  ^iveii  by  the  otticerH  of  the  I'nited 
StateH  revenue  eiitter  "( 'orwiii "  went  to  nhow  that  the 
"Thornton"  wan  Heizinl  while  in  Mehrin^'  Sea.  about  IM»  or  711 
milen  Houtli  HontlieiiNl  of  St.  tieoi'He'N  InlaiKl.  for  the  otTenie 
of  hunting  and  killing  seals  within  that  part  of  Itehriiif;  Sea 
whieli  (it  \vi\<*  alle);ed  by  the  Alaskan  iieWH|iaperl  wan  eede«l 
to  the  I'nited  Slates  by  IJiissia  in  1H(J7. 

Ctl  That  the  jiidne  in  his  cliartje  to  the  jury,  after  <|iiotinK 
the  first  article  of  the  treaty  of  the  ;«Mh  .March.  1H(!7.  between 
HuHsiu  and  the  Inited  Slates,  in  which  the  western  bound 
ary  of  .Maska  is  defined,  went  on  to  sjiy:  ".Ml  tlu'  waters 
within  the  boundary  set  forth  in  lliis  treaty  to  the  western 
end  of  the  .Meiitian  arcliipela;;o  aii<l  chain  of  islaiKls  are  to  be 
conHid<>red  as  comprised  within  the  waters  <vf  .Maska.  and  all 
the  penalties  descHbed  by  law  a^iiinst  the  killin);  of  fur  bear- 
ing aninialH  must,  therefore,  attach  a;;ainst  any  violation  of 
law  within  the  limits  heretofine  descrilied.  If.  therefore,  the 
jury  believe  from  the  evidence  that  the  defciidtints.  by  them- 
selves  oi-  in  conjunction  witli  otiiers.  did.  on  or  about  the 
time  charged  in  tiie  information,  kill  any  oit(>r.  mink,  marten, 
sable  or  fur  seal,  or  other  fur  l)earin^  animal  or  animals  ou 
the  shores  of  Alaska  or  in  the  Helirin^:  Sea  east  of  1!K{  de- 
HrecH  of  west  loii(;itud<>,  tiie  jury  should  find  the  defendants 
tfuilty.  and  assess  their  |Minisiimeiit  separately  at  a  line  of 
not  h-sN  than  |I2I)II  nor  niori'  than  4>l.tMMi.  or  imprisonment 
not  more  than  six  montlis.  or  by  liotli  siicli  fine  iwithin  the 
limits  herein  set  forthi  and  iiii]M'isonnient." 

(4)  That  the  jury  brounht  in  a  verdict  of  tfuilfy  against  tlie 
)iriH(mers.  in  accordance  wiili  which  tlie  master  of  the 
"Thornton,"  Hans  (lUttounseii.  was  sentenced  to  imprlMm 
ment  for  thirty  days,  and  t<)  pay  a  fine  of  ?."ttHl;  and  the  mate 
of  the  "Thorntcm,"  Norman,  was  sentenced  to  iin|>risonnient 
for  thirty  days,  and  to  pay  a  tine  of  $:W()\  which  terms  of  im- 
prisonment are  presumably  now  beinjj  carried  int<i  effect. 

There  is  also  reason  to  believe  that  the  masters  and  mates 
of  the  "Onward"  and  "t'arolena"  have  since  been  tritnl  and 
sentenced  to  undergo  penalties  similar  to  thos4>  now  being 
intlieted  on  the  master  and  mate  of  the  "Thoratcm." 

Von  will  observe,  from  the  facts  given  above,  that  the  au- 
thorities of  the  T'nited  States  app<'ar  to  lay  claim  to  the  sole 


lO 


56 

wtv«'r«'i}jnt,v  of  tlint  jmrt  of  ]t(>liriii^'  S«»a  l.vinn  cast  of  tlio 
wt'stt'i'ly  bouiuliiry  of  Alaska,  an  d«'tin«*«l  in  the  fii-Ht  article  of 
flu'  treaty  coiicluded  lM't\v«'('ii  llic  I'liilcd  Htatts  and  KuHHia 
ill  1S(J7,  by  which  Alaska  was  ceded  lo  the  I'liilejl  States, 
and  which  inclndes  a  stretch  of  sea  «'xtendins  in  its  widest 
j»art  some  (i(M»  or  TOO  miles  easterly  (westerly?)  from  the 
mainland  of  Alaska. 

In  sn]>])ort  of  this  claim,  those  anthorities  are  alle};»>«l  to 
have  interfered  with  the  peaceful  and  lawful  occnpaficm  of 
(^inadian  citizens  on  the  hin;h  seas,  to  have  taken  possession 
of  their  ships,  to  have  subjected  their  proiKU'ty  to  forfeiture, 
and  to  have  visited  upon  tiu'ir  jMM'sons  the  indijj;nity  of  im- 
])risonment. 

Such  proceedinjis.  if  correctly  reported,  would  appear  to 
have  been  in  violation  of  the  admitted  princii>les  of  interna- 
tional law. 

I  request  that  y<Mi  will,  on  the  recelj)t  of  this  disi)atch. 
seek  an  interview  with  Mr.  Hayard.  and  nmke  him  accpiainted 
with  the  nature  of  the  information  which  Her  Majesty's  <i<»v- 
ernment  have  been  furnished  respecting  this  matter,  and 
state  to  him  that  they  do  not  d(nibt  that,  if  on  en(|uiry  it 
should  i>rove  to  be  correct,  the  <iovernment  of  the  I'nited 
States  will,  with  their  well  known  s<'nH<'  of  justice,  at  once 
ailniit  the  illeijality  of  the  proceedinjfs  resorted  to  a<rainst  th" 
Mritish  vessels  and  the  Hritish  subjects  above  mentioned,  and 
you  will  cause  reasonabh'  reparaticui  to  be  made  for  the 
wrou<j;s  to  which  they  have  been  subjected  and  for  the  losses 
which  they  have  sustained. 

Should  Mr.   Hayard  desire  it.  you  are  authorized  to  leave 
with  him  a  co|»y  of  this  dispatch. 
I  am.  etc.. 

IDDLESLEir.n. 


40 


Mr.  Dickinson: — .\t  this  point  I  desire  to  rail  the  attention 
of  the  Court  to  the  fact  that  the  correspondence  which  is  now 
Hou}>ht  to  be  read  in  evidence  was  jjiior  to  the  treaty — prior  lo 
the  iii'oceedinp;s  of  the  Paris  Tribunal — and  that  it  bears 
wholly  upon  facts  found  by  the  Tiibunal  of  Arbitration,  and 
is  not  admissible  here  before  the  C^cMumissioners.  and  Ihe 
<'ommissioners  are  not  enijiowere«l  to  r»'ceiv<>  it  bv  Article 
HI. 


5'^ 


60 


Mr.  Peters: — I  will  simi»ly  state  that  whilst  it  does  bear  to 
a  certain  extent  on  the  facts  found  bv  the  Paris  Tnbunal.  it 
bears  materially  <m  certain  questions  before  you.  Tt  bears 
materially  in  one  very  clear  respect.  It  is  proper  for  us  to 
shew  here  that  we  took  every  means  to  ju-ess  our  claims,  and 
to  press  them  pr(uni»tly.  and  the  whole  correspondence  from 
bejjinninj;  to  end  briuns  that  jtoint  out  very  clearly,  and  that 
l»oint  we  have  the  rijilit  to  shew;  also  the  bona  Ude  nuinner 
in  which  it  was  ]uesented  by  the  Hritish  (^lovonnnent  frcun  l)e 
ttinniuK  to  end.  There  has  been  nothing  like  laches  in  the 
presentation  or  jjrosecntion  of  the  claims. 

Mr.  IHckinson: — And  nothinfj  of  the  kind  is  asserted  or 
contended  for. 

Mr.  Peters: — Tie  does  assert  in  his  jdeadings  that  we  are 
claimiufr  an  excessive  .'imount  of  damages,  and  when  you 
come  to  consider  what  that  damage  consists  of  it  would  be- 
come very  a|>j>arent  whether  the  fact  that  these  claims  were 
pressed  pnmiptly  or  not  is  a  material  matter  for  the  Commis- 
sion. 

I  now  refer  to  numluM-  4.  a  letter  from  Mr.  Havard  to  Sir 
L    S.   West,  dated  \ovend)er  V2.  ISSifi: 


1..1 


J 


57 


-to 


60 


r-     ■  NO.  4. 

Mr.  KajJinl  to  Rir  L.  S.West. 

Dcpju-tnu'iit  of  State, 
Washington,  Nowuibor  12,  ISSC. 

Sir:  The  delay  in  ni.v  reply  to  your  letters  of  SeptenilH'r 
27  and  Oetober  21,  asking  for  the  information  in  my  jtosses- 
sion  foncerning  the  seixure  by  the  United  States  r«*\-enae 
cutter  <;orwln,  in  the  Hei'ing  Sea,  of  Hritish  vesw^ls,  for  an 
allegtHl  violation  of  the  laws  of  the  Unitt'd  States  in  rela- 
tion to  the  Alaskan  seal  tishenes,  has  been  caused  by  my 
waiting  to  r«'<«'ive  from  the  Tre'isury  Department  the  infor- 
matiim  you  desired.  1  tender  the  fart  in  apology  for  tlie 
delay  and  as  the  reason  for  my  silence,  and,  repeating  wl1.1t 
I  said  verbally  to  you  in  our  conversation  this  morning,,  I 
am  still  waiting  full  and  anthenlii-  reports  of  the  judicial 
trial  and  judgment  in  the  (-ases  of  the  wMzures  referred  to. 

My  application  to  my  colleague,  the  Attorney-tJeneral,  to 
procure  an  authentic  report  of  these  proceedings  was  prompt- 
ly made,  and  the  delay  in  furnishing  the  rej)ort  doubtless 
has  arisen  from  the  remoteness  of  the  place  of  trial. 

So  s(K)n  as  I  am  enabled  I  will  convey  to  you  the  facts  as 
ascertained  in  the  trial  and  the  rulings  of  law  as  applied  by 
the  court. 

I  take  leave  also  to  aciknowledge  your  communication  of 
the  21st  of  October,  infonning  me  that  you  had  been  in- 
structed by  the  Earl  of  Iddesleigli,  Her  Majesty's  principal 
secretary  of  state  for  foreign  affairs,  to  protest  against  the 
seizure  of  the  vessels  above  referrn'd  to,  and  to  reserve  all 
rights  of  com]K>nsati<m.  All  of  which  shall  receive  resis'ct- 
ful  consideration. 

I  have,  etc., 

T.  P.  BAYARD. 

I  will  point  out  to  tla*  Oommission  ti;at  although  the  first 
letter  is  written  by  Sir  L.  S.  West  on  the  27th  of  September 
there  is  no  answer  i^'ntm  to  it  until  the  I2th  of  November. 

The  next  letter  I  propose  to  refer  to  is  number  .'">,  dated 
December  7th,  1S80,  from  Sir  L,  Sackville  West  to  Mr.  Bay- 
It  states: 


ard. 


No.  -). 


Sir  L.  S.  Sackville  West  to  Mr.  Bayard. 
Washington,  December  7,  ISSti.  (Received  Dec<>mber  S.) 
Sir:  Referring  to  your  note  of  the  12th  inst  (ultimo?)  on 
the  subject  of  the  seizure  of  Hritish  vessels  in  the  Bering 
S«a.  and  pi-oniising  to  convey  to  me  as  soon  as  possible  the 
facts  as  ascertained  in  the  trial  and  the  rulings  of  law  as 
apiilied  by  the  <'onrt,  1  have  the  honor  to  stjite  that  vessels 
are  now.  as  usual,  <'quipping  in  Mritish  (Columbia  for  fishing 
in  that  S>'a.  The  Canadian  (Jovernment,  therefore,  in  the 
absence  of  information,  are  desirous  of  ascertaining  whether 
such  vessels  fishing  in  the  open  sea  and  beyond  the  territorial 
waters  of  Alaska,  would  be  exposed  to  seizure,  and  Her  Ma 
jesty's  (iovernment  at  the  same  time  would  Ix"  glad  if  some 
assurance  would  be  given  that,  pending  the  settlement  of  the 
«)ueslion.  no  such  seizures  «)f  Mritish  vessels  will  be  made  in 
|{ering  Sea. 

I  have  etc. 

L  S.  SACKVILLE  WEST. 
No.  t!  is  the  next  one: 

No.  0. 

Sir  L.  S.  Sackville  West  to  Mr.  Bayard. 
Washington,  .laniiary  !>.  1W7.     (Received  January  10.) 
•Sir:  I  have  the  honor  to  inform  yon  that  I  have  received 
instructions  from  tlw  KnrJ  of  Iddesleigli,  Her  Majesty's  prin 


58 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


5" 


Oo 


cipal  socrotary  of  state  for  foreign  affairs,  again  to  bring  to 
your  notice  the  grave  representations  made  by  Her  Majesty's 
(lovernment  respecting  tlie  seizuiv  of  tlie  Itritisli  vessels 
"C'arolena,"  ''Onward"  and  '"Tliornton"  in  Hering  S«'a  by  the 
United  States  oniiser  "Corwin,"  to  whicli  no  reply  lias  as  yet 
been  received. 

On  tlie  27th  of  September  last  I  had  the  honor  to  address 
to  yon  a  note,  in  whi(;h  I  stated  that  Her  Majesty's  Govern- 
ment requested  to  b«'  furnished  with  any  particulars  which 
the  I'^nited  Stat<»s  (lOvernment  might  possesft  relative  to  this 
occurren«'e. 

On  the  21  st  of  October  last  I  had  the  honor  to  inform  you 
that  I  was  instructed  by  the  Earl  of  Iddcslt-igh  to  i)rotest 
in  the  name  of  Her  Majesty's  (l«)vernment  against  such  seiz- 
ures, and  to  reserve  all  rights  as  to  comi)ensation. 

In  a  note  dated  the  12th  of  November  last  you  were  go(Ml 
enough  to  explain  the  delay  which  had  occnirred  in  answer- 
ing these  communications,  and  on  the  same  day  I  ha<'  1  .e 
honor  to  communicate  to  you  a  dispatch  from  the  Earl  of 
Iddesleigh,  a  copy  of  whi«  h,  at  your  request,  I  placed  in  your 
hands. 

On  the  7th  ultimo  I  again  had  the  honor  to  address  you. 
stating  that  v(»ssels  were  equipjiing  in  I'.ritish  Columbia  for 
fishing  in  Bering  Sea,  and  that  the  Canadian  Government 
were  desirous  of  ascertaining  whether  such  vessels  fishing 
in  the  open  sea  and  beyond  the  territorial  waters  of  Alaska 
would  be  exposed  to  seizure,  and  that  Her  Majesty's  (lov- 
ernment  would  be  glad  if  some  assurance  could  be  given  that 
pending  the  settlement  of  the  (|uestions  no  such  seizures  of 
Hritish  vessels  would  be  made  in  Hering  Sea. 

The  vessels  in  question  were  seized  at  a  distance  of  more 
than  «U)  miles  fnmi  the  nearest  land  at  the  time  of  their 
seizure.  The  master  of  the  "Thornton"  was  sentenctnl  to 
imprisonment  for  thirty  days,  and  to  pay  a  fine  of  f5(HI,  and 
there  is  reason  to  believe  that  the  masters  of  the  "Onward" 
and  "Carolena"  have  been  sentenced  to  similar  penalties. 

In  support  of  this  claim  to  j'lrisdiction  over  a  stivtch  of 
sea  extending  in  its  widest  jmit  scnne  tillO  or  7(10  miles  from 
the  mainland,  advanced  by  the  judge  in  his  charge  to  the 
jury,  the  authorities  are  alleged  to  liave  interf<>red  with  the 
peaceable  and  lawful  occupation  of  Canadian  citizens  (m  the 
high  seas:  to  have  subjected  their  projterly  to  forfeiture  and 
to  have  visited  upon  their  persons  the  indignity  of  impris(>n- 
ment.  Such  proce<'dings,  therefore,  if  correctly  reported, 
appear  to  have  been  in  violation  of  the  admitted  jirinciples 
of  international  law. 

Und«'r  (hese  circumsfances  Her  Majesty's  Government  do 
not  hesitate  to  express  their  concern  at  not  having  received 
any  reply  to  their  repwsentations,  nor  do  they  wish  to  c(m- 
ceal  the  grave  nature  which  the  case  has  thus  assum(>d,  and 
to  which  I  am  now  instructed  to  call  your  immediate  and 
most  serious  attention.  It  is  unnecessary  for  me  to  allude 
further  to  the  information  with  which  Her  .Majesty's  Gov 
ernment  have  be^-n  furnished  resjMM'ting  these  seizures  of 
Itritish  vessels  in  the  open  seas,  and  which  for  some  time 
past  has  been  in  the  possession  of  the  I'nited  States  Govi'rn- 
UM'nt,  because  Her  Majesty's  (Sovernment  do  not  doubt  that 
if,  on  inquiry,  it  should  jirove  to  be  correct,  the  Ciovernment 
of  the  Cnitt'd  States  ^ill,  with  their  well  known  sense  of 
justice,  admit  the  illegality  of  the  pi'oce<'dings  r«'sorted  to 
against  th"  Mritish  vessels  and  the  Itritish  subjects  above 
mentioncHl,  and  will  cause  reasonable  reparati«m  to  be  made 
f(tr  the  wnmgs  to  which  they  have  been  subjected  and  for 
the  losses  which  they  have  sustained. 

In  conclusion.  I  have  the  honor  again  to  ref«M'  to  your  note 
of  the  12th  of  N(»veinber  last,  and  to  what  you  said  verbally 
to  me  (m  the  same  day,  and  to  express  tlie  Iioim*  that  the 
cause  of  the  delay  com|)lain(Hl  of  in  answering  (he  represent 


ill'. 


59 


lO 


20 


AO 


50 


60 


&tions  of  Her  Majewty'H  Govprnnicnt  on  this  gmvp  and  im- 
portiuit  niatt«'r  nia.v  lu'  HpwKlily  removed. 
I  have,  etc., 

L.  s.  sa<;kvii.le  west. 


Number  7  from  Mr, 
avy  12,  1SS7: 


Ha.vard  to  Hii-  L.  S.  West,  dated  Janu- 


No. 


i  Mr.  Havaid  to  L.  S.  Satkville  West.  i 

Department  of  State, 
Washinjjton,  .Fanuarv  12,  18S7. 

Sir:  Your  note  of  tlu'  fitli  inst.  was  r<'ceive(l  b.v  me  on  the 
next  (lay.  and  I  rcfiret  exceidinjily  that,  altliough  my  efforts 
have  been  (lillj^ently  nuuU  to  procure  from  Alaska  the 
authenticated  copies  of  (lie  judicial  proceediufjis  in  the  caw's 
of  the  ISritish  vessels  "Carolena,"  "Onward,"  and  "Tliorn- 
t<m,"  to  which  you  refei',  I  should  not  have  been  able  to  ob- 
tain them  in  time  to  have  made  the  ur}i;ent  and  renewed 
application  of  th(^  Earl  of  lddeslei}j;h  su|»erfluou8. 

The  prefrsinj;  nature  of  your  note  constrains  me  to  inform 
you  that  on  September  27  last,  when  I  received  my  first  in 
timation  from  you  that  any  questi(m  was  possible  as  to  the 
validity  of  the  judicial  j)roceedin}is  referred  to,  1  lost  no  time 
in  retpiestinfi  my  colleague,  the  Attorney-(ieneral,  in  whose 
department  the  case  is.  to  procure  for  me  such  authentic  in- 
formation as  would  enable  me  to  make  full  resjjonse  to  your 
application. 

From  week  to  week  I  liave  been  await inj?  the  arrival  of 
the  papers,  iuid  today,  at  my  re()uest.  the  Attorney-tSeneral 
has  telegrajthed  to  I'orllaiul.  Orejjon,  the  nearest  t<de};raph 
station  to  Sitka,  in  Ala«ka,  in  order  to  expedite  the  furnish- 
intr  of  the  desired  jiajK-rs. 

You  will  understand  that  my  wish  to  meet  the  questions 
involved  in  the  instructions  you  have  received  from  your 
<ioverniaent  is  averred,  and  that  the  delay  has  iM'en  enforced 
by  the  absence  of  re()uisife  informati<m  jis  to  the  facts. 

The  distance  of  ihe  vessels  from  any  h-nd  or  the  <ircum- 
stanccs  attendant  uikui  their  seizure  are  unknown  to  me 
save  by  the  statements  in  your  last  note,  and  it  is  essential 
that  such  facts  should  be  devoid  of  all  uncertainty. 

Of  whatever  information  may  be  in  the  jJosHession  of  Her 
Majesty's  (Jovernment  I  have,' of  course,  no  knowled^o  or 
means  of  knowledfje,  but  this  Department  of  the  <S<»vernment 
of  tln'  (nited  States  has  not  yet  been  jdaced  in  jtossession 
of  that  accurate  informatifm  which  would  justify  its  decision 
in  a  questiim  which  you  are  certainly  warranted  in  oonsider- 
infj  to  be  of  fjrave  imjwrtance. 

I  shall  dilif;<'ntly  endeavor  to  iirocure 
possible  of  the  nuitters  inipiired  of,  and 
si>onse  thereupon  when  the  ojtport  unity 
forded  to  me. 

You  retpiire  no  a.ssurance  that  no  av(»idance  of  our 
national  oblifj;ations  need  V)e  apjirehended. 
I  have,  etc. 

T.  F.  HA  YARD. 

No.  8  is  a  short  letter  (nm  Sir  Sackville  West  to  Mr.  Bay- 
ard as  follows: 

No.  H. 
'  Sir  L.  S.  Sackville  West  to  Mr.  Hnyard. 

,     Mritish  Lefjation, 

Washington.  February  1,  1SS7.     (Received  February  2.) 

Sir:  With  reference  to  your  n«»te  of  the  12th  ultimo,  I  have 

the  honor  to  inform  you  that   under  date  of  the  27th  ultimo 

the   Mar<|uis  of  Salisbury   instructs  me   to  inquire   whether 

Ihe   information  and   papers   relative   to   the   seizure  of   the 


the  best  evid<'nce 
will  nmke  diu'  re- 
of   dei'ision    is   af- 


intei 


■^*... 


60 

nritish  Bchoonprs    "Carolona,"    '•Onwiird."  and  ''Tliornton" 
have  reached  the  Ignited  Htates  (lovernment. 
I  have,  eft'., 

L.  S.  HAt^KVILLE  WEST. 

This  in  answered  February  ,1rd  by  number  9,  as  follows: 


10 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


No.  9. 
Mr.  Bavard  to  Sir  L.  8.  SaokviUe  W«'st. 


■  ^.•h 


Department  of  State, 
WashinRtim,  February  ;{,  1H87. 

Sir:  I  beg  to  acknowledge  your  note  of  y«'sterday'«  date, 
rweived  to-day. 

Upon  its  receipt  I  made  instant  ap|)li(-ati(m  «o  my  col- 
league, the  Attorney-General,  in  n-lation  to  tlie  record  of  the 
judicial  proi-eedings  in  the  cases  of  the  three  British  veswls 
arrested  in  August  last  in  Bering  B«»ji  for  violation  of  the 
United  States  laws  regulating  the  Alaskan  seal  fisheries. 

I  am  informed  that  the  documents  in  question  left  Sitka 
on  the  26th  of  January,  and  may  be  exjM'cted  to  arrive  at 
Port  Townsend,  in  Washingtcm  Territory,  about  the  7tli  in- 
stant, so  that  the  papers,  in  the  usual  course  of  mail,  should 
be  received  by  me  within  a  fortniglit. 

In  this  connection  I  take  wcasion  to  inform  you  that, 
without  conclusion  at  this  time  of  any  questi<ms  which  may 
be  found  to  be  involved  in  thest*  cases  of  seizure,  orders  hav<' 
been  issued  by  the  President's  direction  for  the  disciuitinu- 
ance  of  all  pending  proceedings,  the  discharge  of  the  vessels 
referred  to,  and  the  releas<'  of  all  persons  under  arivst  in 
connection  therewith. 
I  have  ,etc.. 

T.  F.  BAYARD. 

That  statement  is  one  which  appears  to  me  to  be  of  consid- 
erable importance  with  regard  to  the  veri*  case  we  have  under 
consideration.  The  statement  was  made  on  the  ;{rd  February, 
1887,  that  Instructions  had  been  issued  for  the  release  of  the 
vessels  seized  of  which  the  "Carolena"  was  one.  and  also  of 
the  persons  then  tinder  arrest  or  who  were  supposed  to  be  un- 
der arrest. 

The  next  letter  is  number  10  from  Sir  Sackville  West  to 
Mr.  Bayard: 

No.  10. 

Sir  L.  S.  Sackville  West  to  Mr.  Bayard. 
Washington,  Febnjary  4,  1HH7.     (I^>ceived  Fel»ruary  ."».) 
Sir:  I  have  the  honor  to  acknowledge  the  receipt  <tf  your 
note  of  the  Urd  instant,  informing  nw  that  wilhout  c<m<'lu- 
sion  at  this  time  of  any  (piesticns  which  nuiy  l»e  found  to  l»e 
involved  in  the  cases  of  seizuie  of  British  vess«>lB  in  Bering 
Sea,  orders  have  been  issued,  by  the  I'resident's  direction, 
for  the  dis<'ontinuance  of  ail  |)ending  proceedings,  the  dis 
<'harge  of  the  vessels  referred  t<».  and  the  release  of  all  \n'r 
sons  under  arrest  in  connection  therewith. 
I  have.  etc.. 

L.  S.  SACKVILLE  WEST. 

There  was  a  dlstiiict  statem<>nt  on  the  one  side  and  the 
receipt  of  it  acknowledged  by  the  other  on  the  Ih-d  of  Feb- 
ruary, 1887,  that  these  vessels  had  actimlly  been  released  by 
the  President's  order  and  hereafter  the  correspondence  w;'! 
show  that  that  order  for  some  ("xtraordinnry  reason,  althoi.gh 
transmitted  to  the  projM'r  official  at  Sifka.  was  treat«'d  as  a 
matter  of  fact  as  a  piece  of  waste  paper,  and  was  not  acted 
upon  for  months  and  months  afterwards.  This  may  b  • 
come  of  material  consideration  in  this  case.  esiK'cially  ii'.  re- 


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mird  to  the  f«nin  in  wliich  my  learned  friend  lias  drawn  the 
nnHwer  to  our  claim. 
Tlie  next  one  is  number  11,  dated  April  4th, 

No.  11. 

I  Sir  L.  S.  Saekvilje  West  to  Mr.  Bayard. 

Washington,  April  4,  18H7.      (Heceived  April  4.) 

Sir:  In  view  of  the  approaching  ttshing  season  in  Bering 
Sea  and  tlie  fitting  out  of  vessels  for  tlshiug  operations  in 
those  waters.  Her  Majesty's  tJoverument  have  requt«8ted  me 
to  inciuire  whether  the  owners  of  such  vesm-Is  may  rely  on 
being  unmolested  by  the  cruisers  of  the  United  States  when 
not  near  land. 

Ilei-  Majesty's  (Jovernment  also  desires  to  know  whether 
the  documents  referred  to  in  your  note  of  the  3rd  of  Febru- 
ary last  connected  with  the  seizure  of  certain  British  vessels 
beyond  the  three-mile  limit  and  legal  proceedings  i-onnected 
therewith  have  been  received.  And  I  have  the  honor  there- 
fore to  ret|uest  you  to  be  good  enough  to  enable  me  to  reply 
t(>  these  in<)uiries  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty's  tiovernment 
with  as  little  delay  as  pos^^ible. 
I  have,  etc., 

L.  S.  SACKVILLE  WEST. 

No.  12  fr«mi  Mr.  Bayard  to  Sir  L.  S.  West,  dated  April  12th. 

No.  12. 

Mr.  Bayard  to  Sir  L.  S.    Sacliville  West. 
Department  of  State, 

Washington,  April  12,  1887. 
Sir:  1  have  the  honor  to  acknowledge  your  note  of  the  4th 
instant  relative  to  the  tisheries  in  B<'ring  Sea,  and  inquiring 
whether  the  documents  referred  to  in  my  note  of  February 
3,  relating  to  the  cases  of  seizure  in  those  waters  of  vessels 
charged  with  violating  the  laws  of  the  I'nited  States  regu- 
lating the  killing  of  fur  seals,  had  been  received. 

The  records  of  the  judicial  prm-eedings  in  the  cases  in  the 
district  coiir;  in  Alaska  referred  to,  were  only  received  at 
this  department  on  Saturday  last,  and  aiv  now  under  exam- 
ination. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  wish  in  passing  to  have  it  noted  as 
a  fact  worthy  of  some  consideration  and  as  h;iving  some 
little  weight  in  this  matter,  that  although  these  docu- 
ments were  asked  for  way  back  in  the  year  1886,  they 
were  not  I'eceived  at  Washington  until  the  12th  of  April, 
1887.  I'robably  there  is  scwne  explanation  given  in  the  ofticial 
corresjiondence  of  the  distance  of  the  place  and  the  trouble 
of  getting  at  it.  but  it  does  ai>|K'ar  to  me  that  with  a  little 
more  pushing  those  documents  could  have  been  obtained  at 
a  very  much  earlier  date. 

Now,  then,  he  goes  on  further.      He  says: 

The  remoteness  of  the  scene  of  the  fur-seal  fisheries  and 
the  special  jM^culiarities  of  that  industry  have  unavoidably 
delayed  the  Treasury  officials  in  framing' appropriate  regula- 
tions and  issuing  orders  to  i'nited  States  vess<'l8  to  police 
the  .Mi'skan. waters  for  the  protection  of  the  fur-seals  from 
indiscriminate  slaughter  and  consequent  speedy  extermina- 
tion. 

The  laws  <>f  the  I'nited  States  in  this  behalf  are  cohtaine^l 
injthe  Hevis«'d  Statutes  relating  to  Alaska,  in  sections  1950- 
l!t71.  and  have  been  in  force  for  upwards  of  seventeen  years; 
and  prior  to  the  seizures  of  hist  summer  but  a  single  infrac- 
tion is  known  to  have  occurred,  and  that  was  promptly  pun- 
ished 

The  question  of  instructions  to  Government  vepsgls  in  re- 


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62 

);nrd  to  preventing  the  indiHcrimiuiite  killing  of  fur-m'iilH  ih 
now  being  conHidered,  and  I  will  infonn  yon  at  the  eai-lieHt 
da.v  iHmsible  what  hsiH  been  decided,  so  that  McitiKh  and 
other  vensels  viHiting  the  waters  in  tiuestion  ean  govern 
themselves  aieordiugly, 
I  have,  etc. 

T.  F.  UAYAKI). 

Then  he  gives  sonn'thing  about  regulations  with  whieli  we 
need  not  bt)tln'r  here. 

For  the  sake  of  refereu'c  I  also  reft  r.  pages  14,  15  and  H>, 
to  the  various  Htatul<  s  relating  to  seal  lisheries  in  Alaska. 
I  do  not  presume  at  all  that  it  would  be  neeessary  that  they 
sluMild  be  printed  in  the  record,  but  for  the  sake  of  reference 
lliey  are  there. 

SEC.  1!>54.  The  laws  of  the  I'nited  States  relating  to  cus- 
toms, commerce  and  navigation,  are  extended  to  and  over  all 
the  mainland,  islands,  and  waters  of  the  T«'rrit<M'y  ceded  to 
the  I'nited  States  by  tlu'  Kmperor  of  Russia  by  treaty  con- 
cluded at  VVasliingtim  on  the  thirtieth  day  of  March.  A.I>. 
one  thousand  eight  hundred  and  si.xty  seven,  so  far  as  the 
same  uuiy  be  ap|ilicable  thereto. 

SKC.  I'.hw.  The  I'resident  shall  have  the  |»ower  to  ivstrict 
and  regulate  or  to  prohibit  the  importaticm  and  us«'  of  tire- 
arms.  ammnniticMi  aixl  distilled  spirits.  inti»  and  within  tlu> 
Territory  of  Alaska;  the  exj)ortation  of  the  same  from  any 
other  port  or  j»lace  in  the  I'nited  States,  when  destined  to 
any  port  or  place  in  that  Territoiy,  and  all  such  arms,  am- 
munition and  distilled  spirits,  exported  (»r  attempted  to  l>e 
exportiMl  from  any  port  or  place  in  the  Initi-d  States  and 
destined  for  such  Territory,  in  violation  of  any  regulations 
that  may  be  prescribed  under  this  section,  and  all  such  arnis, 
ammunition  and  distilled  spirits,  landed  or  attempted  to  be 
landed  or  used  at  any  port  or  jdace  in  the  Territory,  in  vio- 
lation of  such  regulations  shall  be  forfeited;  and  if  the  vahu> 
«»f  the  same  exceeds  four  hundred  dollars  the  vessel  upon 
which  the  same. is  found,  or  from  which  they  have  been  land- 
ed, together  with  her  tackle.  a]>parel  and  furnitiire.  and 
cargo,  shall  Im*  forfeitiKl;  and  any  |H'rson  willfully  violating 
such  regulaticms  shall  be  fined  not  nun-e  than  five  hundrtn), 
dollars  or  imprisoned  n<»t  moi-e  than  six  months.  Itouds  may 
be  ivquired  for  a  faithful  ol)servance  of  such  regulations  fmm 
the  masters  or  owners  of  any  vessel  depai-ting  from  any  port 
in  the  I'nited  States  having  on  board  firearms,  airiinunition 
or  distilled  spirits,  when  such  vessel  is  destined  to  any  place 
in  the  Territory,  or  if  not  so  destined,  when  there  is  reason- 
able ground  of  s\isi)icion  that  su<h  artich's  are  intended  to 
be  laded  therein  in  violation  of  law;  and  similar  Ixuids  may 
als<»  be  re(|uired  on  the  landing  of  any  such  articles  in  the 
Territory  from  the  person  to  whom  the  same  may  be  con- 
signed. 

SEC.  !!);■}().  No  perscm  shall  kill  any  otter,  mink,  marten, 
sable,  or  furseal,  or  other  furbearing  animal,  within  the 
limits  of  Alaska  Territory,  or  in  the  waters  thereof;  iind 
every  person  guilty  thereof  shall,  for  »'ach  (►ITense,  be  fined 
not  less  than  two  hundred  dollars  or  more  than  one  thou- 
sand dollars,  or  imprisonment  not  more  than  six  months,  or 
Itoth;  and  all  vessels,  their  tackle,  a])parel,  furniture,  and 
cjirgo.  found  engaged  in  violation  of  this  secticm  shall  Im*  for- 
feited. Hut  tile  Secretary  of  the  Treasury  shall  have  the 
jMHwer  to  authorize  the  killing  of  any  such  mink,  marten, 
sable,  or  other  fur-beaiing  animal,  except  fur-seals,  under 
such  regulations  as  he  may  prescribe;  and  it  shall  be  the 
duty  of  the  S(-cretary  to  prevent  the  killing  of  any  fiir-seal 
and  t(»  i»rovide  for  the  execuliiui  of  the  provisicms  of  this 
section  \intil  it  is  otherwise  jn'ovided  by  law;  nor  shall  he 
grant  any  special  privileges  under  this  seclitm. 


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REC.  1!»37.  Tntil  otherwise  provided  b.v  law,  all  violations 
of  this  chaiJler  and  of  the  several  laws  hereby  extended  to 
the  Territory  of  Alaska  and  the  watiTs  thereof  «H>nnnitted 
witliin  the  iiniits  of  the  same,  siiall  be  prosecuted  in  any 
district  court  of  the  I'nited  Wtates  in  falifoniin  or  On-gon, 
or  in  the  district  courts  of  Washington;  and  the  collector 
and  deputy-c(>llectiM'H  appointed  for  Alaska  Territory,  and 
any  person  authorized  in  writing  by  either  of  them,  or  by  the 
Secretary  of  the  Treasury,  sliall  have  power  to  arri^st  per- 
sons and  seize  vessels  and  merchandise  liable  to  fines,  penal- 
ties or  forfeitures  under  this  and  the  other  laws  extended 
over  the  Territory,  and  to  keeji  and  deliv«>r  the  sjime  !<►  the 
marshal  of  some  (me  of  such  courts;  and  such  courts  shall 
have  ori^'inal  jurisdiction,  and  may  take  cofjnizauce  of  all 
cases  arisiuff  under  this  act  and  the  several  laws  hereby  ex- 
tended over  this  Territory,  and  shall  proceed  therein  in  the 
same  manner  and  with  the  like  etfect  as  if  such  cases  had 
arisen  within  tlu'  district  or  territory  where  the  proceeding's 
are  broujjht. 

SEC  1058.  In  all  cases  of  Hne.penalty  or  forfeiture  em- 
braced in  the  act  approval  the  third  March,  one  thousand 
seven  hundred  and  ninety-st'ven,  chapter  thirteen,  or  men- 
tioned in  any  act  in  addition  to  or  amendatory  of  such  act, 
that  luive  occurred  or  may  occur  in  the  collection  distric't  of 
Alaska,  the  Secretary  (►f  the  Treasury  is  authorized,  if,  in 
his  opinion,  the  tine,  penalty  or  forfeiture  was  incurred  with- 
out willful  negligence  or  intention  of  fraud,  to  ascertain  the 
facts  in  such  manner  and  under  such  regulations  as  he  may 
deem  proper  without  regard  to  the  provisions  of  the  act 
above  referred  to.  and  upon  the  facts  so  to  be  ascertained  he 
nuty  exercise  all  the  power  of  remission  conferred  upon  him 
by  that  act.  as  fully  as  he  might  have  done  had  such  facts 
been  ascertained  under  and  according  to  the  provisions  of 
that  act. 

SEC.  105!).  The  islands  of  Saint  Paul  and  Saint  George,  in 
Alaska,  are  declar«>d  a  special  reservation  for  (Jovernment 
purjwses;  and  until  otherwise  provided  by  law  it  shall  be 
unlawful  for  any  person  to  land  or  remain  on  either  of  those 
islands,  except  by  the  authority  of  the  Secretai-y  of  the  Trea- 
sury; and  any  person  found  on  either  of  those  islands,  con- 
trary to  the  provisions  hereof,  shall  be  summarilyremoved; 
and  it  shall  be  th«'  duty  of  the  Secretary  of  War  to  carry 
this  section  into  effect. 

SEr.  VMU).  It  sluill  \h'  unlawful  to  kill  any  fur  seal  upon 
the  islands  of  Saint  Paul  and  Saint  (Jeorge,  or  in  the  waters 
adjacrent  thereto,  except  during  the  months  of  June,  July, 
September  and  October  in  each  year;  and  it  shall  be  unlaw- 
ful to  kill  such  seals  at  any  time  by  the  use  of  fire-anns,  or 
by  other  means  tending  to  drive  the  seals  away  from  those 
islands,  but  tlie  natives  of  the  islands  shall  have  the  privi- 
lege of  killing  such  young  seals  as  may  be  necessjiry  for  their 
own  food  and  clothing  during  other  mcmths.  and  also  such 
old  Iseals  as  may  be  re»|uircd  f<u'  their  own  clothing  and  for 
th(>  manufacture  of  boiits  for  their  own  use;  and  the  killing 
in  such  cases  shall  be  limited  and  controlled  by  such  regula- 
tions as  may  be  i)rescribed  by  the  Secretary  of' the  Treasury. 

SE(l.  liMil.  It  shall  be  unlawful  to  kill  any  female  seal,  or 
any  seal  less  tlian  one  yeai-  old.  at  any  season  of  the  year, 
except  as  above  provided;  and  it  shall  also  1m'  unlawfiil  to 
kill  any  seal  in  the  waters  adjacent  to  the  islands  of  Saint 
Paul  and  Saint  George,  or  on  the  beaches,  cliffs  or  rocks 
where  they  haul  up  from  the  sea  to  remain;  and  every  person 
w'lo  violates  the  provisions  of  this  or  the  i»r»»ceding  section 
shall  be  punish(Hi  for  each  offense  by  a  fine  of  not  less  than 
tw(t  hundre<l  dollars  nor  more  than  one  thousand  dollars,  or 
by  imprisonment  not  more  than  six  m<mths.  or  bv  both  such 
tine  and  imprisonment;  and  all  vessels,  their  tackle,  apparel, 
and  furniture,  whose  crews  are  found  engaged  in  the  viola- 


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tion  of  «4tht'r  this  or  the  prt-ccdiiiK  siM-tion,  shall  b**  foi-fcitiMl 
t«»  tht'  I'litt'd  Ktatfs. 

SE('.  1!)«2.  For  the  period  of  twenty  years  from  th«!  llrst 
•Inly,  one  thoiisnnd  ei^ht  hundred  and  si'venty,  the  number 
«)f  fur  seals  which  may  be  killed  for  their  skins  upon  the  isl- 
and of  Saint  Paul  is  limited  to  seventy-tlve  thousand  p«'r  an- 
num; and  the  number  of  fur-M'uls  whicli  may  be  killed  for 
their  skins  upcm  the  island  of  Haint  (!(>orf;e  is  limited  to 
twenty-five  thousand  i»er  annum;  biit  the  Secretary  of  the 
Treasury  may  limit  the  rijjht  of  killing;,  if  it  becomes  neces- 
sary for  the  j>reser\'ation  of  such  seals,  with  such  jtroptir- 
tionate  reduction  of  tlie  rents  reserve<l  to  the  (iovemment  as 
may  be  proper;  and  every  person  who  knowin^rly  violates 
either  of  the  provisions  <»f  this  section  shall  bt>  punished  as 
l»rovided  in  the  precedinjj  section. 

SEC.  VMi'.i.  When  the  It'ase  heretofore  made  by  the  Secre- 
tary of  the  Treasury  to  "The  Alaska  Commercial  Company" 
4»f  the  rifflit  to  en^a^e  in  takin^r  fur-seals  on  the  islands  of 
Saint  Paul  and  Saint  (it-or^fe.  pursuant  to  the  act  of  the  first 
July,  chapter  one  hundred  and  eighty-nine,  or  when  any  fu- 
ture similar  lease  expires,  or  is  surrendered,  forfeited  or  ter- 
minate<l.  the  Secretary  shall  lease  to  proper  and  responsible 
[larties.  for  the  best  advantage  of  the  I'nited  States,  havin<; 
due  rej^ard  to  the  interests  of  the  (Jovernuienf,  the  native  in- 
habitants, their  comfort,  maintenance  and  education,  as  well 
as  to  the  interests  of  the  parties  heretofore  enjiafjed  in  trade 
and  the  protection  of  the  fisheries,  the  rifjht  of  taking!  fur-seals 
on  the  islands  herein  nanie<l,  and  of  sending;  a  vessel  or  ves- 
sels to  the  islands  for  the  skins  of  such  seals,  for  the  term 
of  twenty  years,  at  an  annual  rental  of  not  less  than  Hfty 
thousand  dollars,  to  be  reserved  in  such  l<>ase  and  secured 
by  a  deposit  of  United  States  bonds  to  that  amount;  and 
every  such  leaw  shall  be  duly  executed  in  duplicate,  and 
shall  not  be  transferable. 

SEC.  1!)«4.  The  Secretary  of  the  Treasury  shall  take  from 
the  li'ssees  of  such  islands  in  all  cases  a  b(md,  with  securi- 
ties, III  a  sum  not  1(>8S  than  five  hundred  thousand  dollars, 
cont'itioned  for  the  faithful  observance  of  all  the  laws  and 
requirements  of  Congress,  and  the  regulations  of  the  Secre- 
tary of  the  Treasury  touching  the  taking  of  fur-seals  and  the 
disposing  of  the  same,  and  for  the  payment  of  all  taxes  and 
dues  accruing  to  the  Cnited  States  connected  therewith. 

8E('.  11)0.5.  No  persons  other  than  American  citizens  shall 
be  permitted,  by  lease  or  otherwise,  to  ix-cupy  the  islands  of 
Saint  Paul  and  Saint  (Jeorge,  (►r  either  of  them,  for  the  pur- 
l)ose  of  taking  the  skins  of  fur-seals  therefrom,  nor  shall  any 
foreign  vessels  be  engaged  in  taking  such  skins;  and  the  Sec- 
retary of  the  Treasury  shall  vacate  and  declare  any  lease 
forfeited  if  the  same  be  held  or  operated  for  the  use,  benefit 
«»r  advantage,  directly  or  indirectly,  of  any  persons  other 
than  American  citizens. 

SEC3.  liMtfi.  Every  lease  shall  contain  a  covenant  upon  the 
jtart  of  the  lessee  that  he  will  not  keep,  sell,  furnish,  give  or 
disp(»se  of  any  distilled  spirits  or  spirituous  li(]uors  on  either 
of  those  islands  to  any  of  the  natives  thereof,  such  person  not 
being  a  physician  and  furnishing  the  same  for  use  as  medi- 
cine; and  every  revenue  ofticer,  officially  acting  as  such  on 
»'ither  of  the  islands,  shall  seize  and  dt'stroy  any  distilled  or 
spirituous  liquors  found  there<m;  but  such  officer  shall  make 
detailed  reports  of  his  doings  in  that  matter  to  the  collector 
of  the  j)ort. 

SEC.  11>(»7.  Every  i>erson  who  kills  any  fur-seal  »>n  either  of 
those  islands,  or  in  the  watei-s  adjacent  thereto, 
without  authority  of  the  lessees  thereof,  and  every 
person  who  molests,  disturbs,  or  interferes  with  the  lessees, 
or  either  of  them,  or  their  ag«'nt8  or  employes,  in  the  lawful 
pros<>cution  of  their  business,  under  the  provisions  of  this 
chapter,  shall  for  each  offense  be  punished  as  prescribed  in 


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section  HMil;  nnd  till  vckscIh.  ilit-ir  la<  klc  iippiin-l.  iip|iiii'.ti'- 
iiaiiics  iiixl  cai'no.  wliosc  n-cws  ai'i'  toiiiid  fn^ap;f(l  in  aiiv 
violation  of  the  piovisions  of  sections  11X1,")  to  I'MW.  inclusive, 
shall  lie  foifeiled  to  the  I'liited  States. 

SK<,".  litfis.  If  any  peisoii  of  (ctnpany.  nndei  any  lease 
ht  ii'in  authoii/.ed.  kno\vin};ly  kills,  oi'  peiinits  to  he  killed, 
any  nuinhei-  of  seals  exceedinir  the  niiinher'  foe  each  island 
in  this  clia]iter  prescribed,  such  pei'snii  or  company  shall 
in  addition  to  tlie  peinilties  and  forfeitures  lu  i-cin  jirovided. 
forfeit  the  wlnde  ninnher  of  the  skins  of  seals  kilh-d  in  that 
year.  or.  in  <'ase  the  same  lia\e  heen  disposed  of,  then  such 
person  or  company  shall  forfeit   the  valin-  of  the  same. 

SK<'.  I'.M)!).  In  atldilion  to  the  annual  rental  recinii-etl  t<»  lie 
reserved  in  every  lease,  as  proVith  d  in  si'cliou  nineteen  hun- 
dred and  sixty-tliree.  a  revenue  tax  or  duty  of  two  <hillai'H  is 
laid  n|)on  each  fur-seal  skin  taken  and  shipped  from  the  isl- 
ands of  Saint  I'aul  and  Saint  (ieorp-  diirinf;  tin-  continuance 
of  any  lease,  to  lie  paid  into  the  Treasury  of  the  I'nited 
States;  and  the  Secretary  of  the  Treasury  is  empowered  to 
make  all  needful  reffulalions  for  the  collection  and  payment 
of  the  same,  and  to  secure  the  comfort,  maintenance,  educa- 
tion, and  protection  of  the  natives  of  those  islands,  and  also 
to  carry  into  full  effect  all  the  provisions  cf  this  chapter  ex- 
cept as  otherwise  prescrilied. 

SKC.  I!I7(>.  The  Secretary  <if  the  Treasury  may  terminate 
any  lease  ^iven  to  any  perscm,  company  or  cori>oration  on 
full  and  .satisfactory  jiroof  of  the  violation  of  any  of  the  pro- 
visions of  this  chapter  or  the  r('}i;n  hit  ions  estaldished  liy  hini. 

SKC  1!)71.  The  lessees  shall  furnish  to  the  several  imiHters 
of  vessels  employed  by  them  certitied  copu's  of  the  lease  held 
liy  them  respectively,  which  shall  be  jiresenled  to  the  (Joy. 
(  rnment  revenue  olhcer  f<M'  the  time  lieiny-  who  may  be  in 
charge  at  the  islands  as  the  authority  of  the  parly  for  land- 
ing and  taking;  skins. 

SKr.  1I»7l'.  ('on{,n'ess  may  at  any  time  liertafter  alter,  amend 
or  repeal  sections  from  nineteen  huiuliid  anil  sixty  to  nine- 
teen hundred  and  s<'venty oiU',  liolli  inclusive,  of  this  chapter. 

SKC  l!t7:!.  The  Secretary  of  the  Treasury  is  authorized  to 
appoint  one  afi<'nt  and  three  assistant  aK<'n1s.  who  shall  lie 
char^'ed  with  the  manaficment  of  the  seal  fislu  ries  in  Alaska, 
and  the  performance  of  such  other  duties  as  may  be  assifjnf'd 
to  tluMU  liy  tlie  Secretary  of  the  Treasury. 

Sl-:<'  1!>74.  The  ajrenlshall  receive  th"'  sum  of  ten  dollars 
<'ach  day.  one  assistant  ayent  the  siun  of  ei<,dit  dcdlars  each 
day.  and  two  assistant  a;;enls  the  sum  of  six  d<dlars  each  day 
while  so  employed:  and  they  shall  also  be  allowed  their  nec- 
essary travellin;;  expenses  in  fjoinj;  to  and  returning-  from 
Alaska,  for  which  expenses  vouchei's  shall  be  jiresented  to 
the  jirojier  acconntinu'  ollicers  of  tlie  Tre;isuiy.  and  such  ex- 
jienses  shall  not  ex<eed  in  tlie  a|it;reiiate  six  iinndrcd  dollars 
each  in  any  one  year.  *'■ 

SF<'.  l<»7ri.  Sii.'h  aitents  shall  nev<'r  be  interested,  directlv 
or  indirectly,  in  any  lease  of  the  ri<;ht  to  take  .«eals,  nor  iii 
any  iiroceeds  or  protits  thereof,  either  .as  owner,  ajreiit,  part- 
ner, (jr  otherwise. 

SKC.  1!»7<l.  Such  agents  are  empowered  t<i  administer  oatlis 
in  all  cases  ri'latin;;  to  the  serviic  of  the  I'niled  States  and 
to  lake  testimony  in  .Vlaska  for  the  use  of  the  (ioverniuent 
in  •iny  matter  concernintif  the  public  revenues. 

Xumber  K?  is  a  letter  fvom  Sir  L.  S.  West  to  Mr.  Bnvai'd  as 
follows: 

Xo.  i;?. 
Sir  L.  S.  Sackville  West  to  Mr.  Bayard. 
^^'ashiIl}^ton,  .Inly  S.  1,SS7.       (Keceivn!    Inly  0.) 

of  the  12t!i  AiPiil,  statiim 


Sii  :  Willi  r"ferenc( 
that  the  records  of  t 
5 


to  your  note 
le  judicial   prociedinjis  in   the  cases  of 


"I&f 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


6b 


66 

till-  ll^iM^«ll  vessels  scizt'^l  in  tlx'  I5cilii<;  S  ni  Ii.hI  Im  imi  it'crivcd, 
]  hint'  tilt'  litiiH)''  l(»  int'orni  ,vimi  iltiil  tlii'  Miiiiinis  nC  SulislHiry 
has  itistriu'lril  inr  to  i-f<|ii('st  von  to  he  •tood  mnuiili  to  fur- 
nisli  inc  with  11  copv  uf  the  saiiie  for  tl.c  inforinalioii  of  llei' 
Ma j«'st y's  ( iovcriiiiicnt. 
1  have,  etc., 

L.  S.  SACKVIIJ.!-:  WKST. 

Number  It  is  a  letter  from  Mr.  Hayard  to  Sir  L.  S.  West  as 
follows: 

No.  1  i. 

Mr.  Ka.vard  to  Sir  L.  S.  iAa<kville  West. 

Deiiartmei.'t  of  State, 

\Vafiliin;rton,  .liil.v  II.  HH7. 

Sir'  ('oiMplylii}{  with  the  icijiiest  foiitained  in  yonr  not"  of 
the  Sth  instiint,  conxeyetl  to  me  nnder  tiie  insirnctions  o'' 
yonr  (iovernmenl.  I  have  the  honor  to  inclose  yon  two  ]n"inl<<l 
copies  t)f  the  judicial  |n'oceedin>;s  in  the  I'nlted  Stales  dis 
trict  court  for  the  histrict  of  Alaska  in  the  seveial  cases  of 
HIm'I  aj,'ainst  the  scJiooiiers  "Onward,"  "Caroh'na."'  and 
"Thornton."  tor  killinjf  fur-seals  in  Alaskan  waters. 
A(cept.  etc., 

T.   F.   liAVAlJI). 

I  will  come  to  Number  \H,  dated  the  2!>tli  of  B«'ptember, 
West  to  Hayard: 

No.  IS. 

Sir  L.  S.  Suckville  West  to  Mr.  IJayard. 

Kritish  Lepition. 
Washington.  Septemlu'r  2!).  1SH7.     ( Received  Sejitember  '2*X) 

Sir:  I  have  the  honor  to  inform  yon  that  Her  Majesty's 
(iovernment  have  been  otlicially  iufornied  that  the  Itritish 
vessels,  mentioned  in  ytnir  note  of  the  .'{rd  of  February  last, 
have  not  been  released,  and  that  I  am  instructed  to  in(|nirt! 
the  rt'ason  for  the  delay  in  complyinf;  witli  the  orders  sent 
to  this  effect,  as  stated  lit  your  above  mentioned  note. 
I   have,  etc., 

L.  S.  SACKVILLK  WKST. 

The  forefjoin^  referred  to  a  statement  made  in  a  previous 
li'tt<'r  that  the  vessels  had  been  released  on  the  Ihd  of  April, 

IMS",  and  heri'  is  a  letter  on  the  2!lth  of  September  from 
West  to  Itayard  recalling;  to  his  mind'  the  letter  of  February 

.'{rd  and  inforinin^;  him  of  the  fact  that  the  vessels  had  not 
been  release<l.  I  now  j»ass  to  number  21.  dated  ()ctol»er  Sth, 
1SS7.  from  Mr.  Hayard  to  Mr.  (Jarland: 

No.  21. 

Mr.   Hayard  to  Mr.  (iarland. 

Dejtartment  of  State, 
Washinfiton,  October  S,  1SS7. 

Sir:  With  reference  to  the  copy  of  your  telef;ram  of  the 
2Sth  of  January,  which  acconii)anied  your  letter  of  the  21st 
of  May.  1SS7,  to  this  I»cpiiitm;iit.  relative  to  the  order  issued 
by  you  for  the  release  of  the  Itritisli  sealing;  vessels  "Caro- 
lemi,"  "Onward."  and  "Thornton."  I  have  now  the  honor  to 
inclose  herewith,  foi'  your  informalidii.  a  copy  of  a  note  from 
t<ir  Lionel  West,  Her  Hiitannic  Maji  sty's  minister  at  this 
rapital,  in  which  it  is  alle};ed  that  tlie  vessels  in  .'pu'stion 
have  not  been  re  leased. 

In  view  of  the  fact  that  the  niinistc!'  was  informed,  on  the 
:!rd  of  Febrmiiy  last,  that  the  order  for  the  discliai'p'  of  the 
vessels  referrccl  to  had  been  issui  d,  I  sliall  feel  mucli  obliged 


■^; 


■'¥ 


I 


lO 


20 


3" 


■|0 


50 


60 


67 

il' vdii  will  kindly  caiiHr  lliis  <lc|ijii'tiii<'iil  lo  lie  fiiniisii<-il  willi 
siirli  ifoiiiiiilioii  :\H  svill  oiiabli'  iiii'  lo  n'ply  fully  to  f<ii'  MtHM'l 
Wcwt'H  note. 

J    llilVC,  clc, 

T    V.  MAYAKl). 

TIk'ii  iiutnlici'  •22,  iliilcd  Oclolicr  lllli,  1SS7,  whcn-iii  Mr. 
Ilayartl  writess  lo  Sir  li.  S,  West  as  IuIIowh; 

No.  22. 

Mr.  Hayard  lo  Sir  L.  S.  Sarkvillf  WchI. 

Kt'liarliufiit  of  Statt-, 
\\  UHiiiii),'l()ii,  October  II.   Iss7. 

Sir:  I  have  I  lie  honor  to  atknowlftlp'  your  note  of  tin-  '-'iltli 
ultimo,  .><tatin>j  that  tier  Majesty's  OovtMiiuicut  had  lu'in  of- 
llcially  infonufd  that  the  Miitinh  vcshcIs  referred  to  in  my 
note  to  you  of  the.trd  of  I'^eltruaiv  last  had  not  liei-n  rehaMcd, 
and  a.sldnj;  the  reason  for  the  elay  in  i(ini|dyinj{  with  the 
(Milers  of  the  Kxeeutive  in  thai   regard. 

I'lKin  receiviuff  your  note  I  .it  onee  wrote  to  my  colleague, 
the  .Vttoiney  IJeiieral,  as  the  head  of  the  Departinent  of  .lus- 
tiee.  in  order  that  I  niii,'ht  be  eiialdtd  lo  reply  salisfaetorily 
to  your  in(|uiry. 

I  am  still  without  answer  from  him,  which,  when  rei-eived, 
shall  lie  promptly  communicated  to  you. 

In  the  meantiiiie.  in  acknowled^'inn  your  note,  I  lake  occa- 
sion to  state  my  impressi(m  that  if  the  three  vessels  seized 
and  ordered  to  be  released  have  not  been  repossessed  by  their 
owners,  it  is  not  because  of  any  hindrance  on  the  part  of  any 
ollicial  of  this  (iovernmeiit.  or  failure  to  obey  the  order  for 
release,  but  probably  because  of  the  remoteness  of  the  local- 
ity iSitka)  where  they  were  taken  after  arr.st  foi-  adjudica- 
tion, and  the  proceedinjis  having  been  in  rem,  the  owners 
have  not  seen  jtroper  to  proceed  to  Alaska  and  repossess 
themselves  of  the  properly  in  i|ii<  >lion. 
Accept,  sir,  etc., 

T.  V.  UAVAHI). 

I  call  the  att->iition  of  the  Commissioners  to  II  's  letter. 

A  very  short   time  afterwards   .Mr.    IJayard   vei  \    properly, 
havinj;  found   that    his  im|)ression   on   that   niallir   was    en 
tirely  wnuifr.  had  to  admit  and  did  admit  that  the  delay  was 
caused  by  an  official  of  the  I'nited  States. 

Number  24  is  the  next  one  to  which   r  will  refer.       It  is 
from  Mr.  (iarland  to  Mr.  Hayard.  dated  October  12th; 

Xo.  2t. 
Mv.  Crarland  to  Mr.  l?ayard. 

Department  of  .Instice, 

•      \VashinKt(m,  October  12,  1SS7.     iHeceived  October   1:5.) 

Sir:  In  reply  to  yonr  letter  of  the  Mid  instant,  inclosing 
copy  of  letter  from  lion.  L.  S.  Sackville  W<'st,  with  reference 
to  the  vessels  "Carolena,"  "Onward,"  and  "Thornton,"  yes- 
terday I  received  a  letter  from  the  marshal,  Martcm  Atkins, 
statiiifi  in  substance  that  my  telefiram  of  the  2(;th  of  January 
had  been  thoufjlit  to  be  not  {lenuine,  and  had  not  been  acted 
Hjton.      To-day  I  sent  him  the  following  telejjram: 

"As  the  seal  skins  at  San  Frani-isco  are  perishable,  have 
sale  made.  Thirty  days'  leave  is  {fiaiited  for  that  i>urpose. 
Let  the  vessels  "("arolena,"  "Onward,"  and  "Thornt<m"  be 
released,  as  ordered  in  mine  of  the  2f>tli  of  Januarv  ultimo. 

•  •I     <......*     (1.: :ii     III  ...  .        •     . 


"I   trust 
directed. 


this  will   be  obeyed  and   the  vessels  released 

'Voiirs.  etc., 

".V.  II.  (iAUL.V.M*, 

".Vttoiney-Oeneral.' 


as 


"Wi 


II 


r.s 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


09 


\  ■. 


'I! 


It  m'ciiiH  nitli<-i  Nti'jini;<'  wIm'm  the  .NfiiiHlial  ill  Silkii  liiol  i'<- 
M-ivcd  a  Iflr^'rnin  fioiii  tlic  Allotiicv Cmt'itil  of  IId'  rnitnl 
StatcH  onltM'iiii;  Ihr  ■•'Ii>)ini>  nf  iIh-hi-  vcnni-Im  as  to  tlic  an- 
llu-iiticit.v  of  wliii'h  !>••  hail  hmiik-  tliiuht.  hi'  iliil  iiitl  li-li-);iii|>li 
till'  Attiii-iii-y  (ifiii-ral  ami  aMk  wIh'IIiit  im'  mil  il  wiin  ^'i-imi 
iiif.  liiMti'iitl  .if  iliiiii;;  that  hi>  paiil  im  alli-iiliuii  In  il  wlial 
i'Vfi',  ami  ilni-N  mil,  so  far  as  ihi*  riiri'rN|iiiiiili'iirf  a|i|irarH, 
arkmiwlrilp'  ill  aiiv  wav  ilu-  ii-ri'i|ii  nf  ihi-  li-h-^nahi.  m  laki* 
iiM.v  Mh'im  whali'ViT  in  ii'piiil  In  I  hi-  ii'h'ani'  nf  I  hi-  M'smi-Ih, 
till'  riiliHn|lli>llri-  lii'ili.;  thilt  ihi-sr  \'i'Sxi-In  wrrr  ilrlailiril  fur 
Kiirh  a  li-n^lli  nf  linii'  tlial  IIt.v  lu'raim-  almnluli'lv  nl  mi  iisi' 
wliati'V«'r  ami  tiiially  wi-if  r<im|ih-lily   Insl. 

Tlii-n  XiiiiiliiT  LTi,  Mr.  I!iivaril  In  Sir  1<.  S.  Wcsl,  dali'il  Oct 
olicf  IM,  ISH"; 


Nn.  iTi. 
Mr.  navard  In  Sir  I..  S.  Saikvilli-  Wi-sl. 


I>i'|iarlim-iit  uf  Stall-, 
Wiisliiiijiinii,  Oitiibcr  1;{,  1SM7. 

Sir:  ('nuiimiint!;  iiiv  ri-plv  In  vniir  iinli-  nf  Ihi-  liUlli  ultimo. 
ini|iiiriiiK  thi'  n-asoii  fnr  tin-  di-lav  in  rom|ii,vin};  willi  Ilu*  or- 
der iHHiii'd  in  •lamiary  hiNt  for  llii'  ii-lraMi-  nf  Itiiiisli  m'ssi-Is 
wi'izi'd  luHi  vrar  in  Hi-rinj;  Si-a.  I  lii-fj  liavi'  tn  inform  vnii  tlial 
I  hav«'  IhiN  da.v  ri'Cfivi'il  a  rniiimiiiiiralion  frnin  in,\  rnlli>a^ui', 
till'  .Vltorui'.v Oriii'i'al.  informing  iiii'  that  Imn  ti'li'uram  to  llii' 
i'niti'd  Stati'H  niai-.shiil  at  Silka.  of  •laniiarv  2t;  JaHl.  nrdi-rinf; 
the  ri'li'asii'  of  thi'  Urilisli  miioom-rs  ••Oiiwan!,'  •raroli'na," 
and  "Thornton,"  owin;;  tn  snim-  misrnnci'i'iinn  ami  mi»4taki' 
on  till'  part  nf  thi'  nttirial  In  wlmm  it  Iuih  Iii'I'ii  ailili'i's»4i'il.  had 
not  bi't'n  arli'd  upon. 

A  i'i'IU'WI'iI  ordrr  haw  jroni"  forward  fnr  tliiir  irli-asi'.  iih 
IniH  lii'i'u  distinrllv  diri'itril  last  .laniiaiv.  and  wliich  I  had 
iiu  rcaHDii  tn  dniilit  had  lii-i-n  prnmpllv  nlii'vi'd. 

In  my  nnti'  to  ynii  nf  tlu'  lltli  inslanl.  I  slatid  it  to  hr  my 
iin])re8Hion  that  no  liiiKlrami'  In  Ihi-ir  ri-piissi'ssinn  liy  tlii' 
owni'i'N  of  till'  vi'ssi'ls  namrd  rxislrd.  Tlii-s  iinprrssinii  it 
now  ap]ii'arH  wan  not  wi-ll  foiimli'd;  and  as  my  ohji-rl  is  lo 
}.'lvi' yon  till'  fulli'st  informaliiiii  williin  my  powi-r  in  ri'lation 
to  all  transarlions  toiirlu'd  in  our  I'orri'spnndriiri-.  I  hasii-n  to 
I'omniiiniiati'  Ihi'  lalrsi  npoil  madi-  to  mi'  from  tin-  Di'part- 
nii'iit  nf  •liiHliri'. 

I  taki'  li'avi'  alsn  in  i-.xpri'ss  my  rcj^rd  tlial  any  niisronri'p- 
tion  of  thr  inli'iitions  and  orders  of  the  I'ri'sidi'iit  should  have 
di'layi'd  tlii'ir  |irnmpl  I'xi'fiilion. 
I  iiavi'.  I'll'.. 

T.  V.  MAVAWU. 


Kavard   In    (iar- 


I   will   ri'fi'i-  shortly  to  li'lti-r  niimlM'r  J7, 
land,  as  follows. 

No.  L'7. 
Y  iKxtract.) 

Di'partmi'iit    of   Stair. 
Washin;;tnn,  (liloln'r  l:'..  l.'^S". 
Sir:   I   lii'H  to  arkiiowli'dtji'  your  rnmmiiiiicalinn  nf  yi'sti-r- 
day's  date.  Iiy  wliiili  I  am  siirprisi'd  to  ji-arii  nf  the  faiiiire  of 
till'  riiiti'd  States  marshal  at   Silka   to  nliey  llie  instruitinn 
of  the   rresideiit    of  .laniiary  •_'<!  last,   fnr  I  lie  iminediale  re 
lease    nf    the    Uritish    sealers  "Onward."    "t'arnlina."     and 
"Tliorntnn."       I  have  fell   it   to  he  my  duly  at  onie  to  roin- 
niiinicate  this  inforniatinn  to  ilie  ISritish  minister  at  this  lap- 
ital. 

I  have.  etc.. 

T.    I'.    MAYAKI). 

Also  to  letter  numlier  »S.  (iarlaml  In   Itavard; 


Ml 


69 

No,  -Js. 
Wiii'lanil  ((>  Mr. 


Ha.vtinl. 


Drpai'tllll'llt   of  JUHMri', 
WiiMliiiijflini.  (Iciolicr  l.'i.  IssT.     (UiM'clvfd  October  17.) 
Sir:   -I  liii\c  ilic  lioiior  to  snv.  in  reply  to  voiir  letter  of  the 
l.'tdi   iiiNtiilil.  ill   reiiilioii   to  tile  reledse  of  the   veHHclt*  "riiro- 
leiiii."  "Oiiwiinl,"  anil  "Tlioiiitoii."  Hint  before  your     reiinewl 
IQ        waN  i'ei'ei\eil   I   hail  ii|iealeil  the  iiiHt  I'liclioiiK.  by  tele(;i'ii))li  to 
the  niai'Nhal   for  .\hiMl<a.  ami  since  its  receipt    have,  iih    yon 
slliiKcMted,   sllppleiiieiiled    the   telejrralll    by   n    letter,     botli   of 
tliese  coniinnnicntions  ilircclin;;  that  the  instructionH  of  .Tiiii- 
nary  Uisl  be  carried  out. 

\'erv  res]»ectfnllv. 

A.  H.  r,AHLA\I). 

Then  I  will  pi'oceed  to  letter  iiiniiber  .'til,  beinn  a  note  from 
Sir  Sacivviile  WcNt  to  .Mr.  Hayard.  as  follows: 

20  No.  ;i(i. 

Sir  L,  S.  Sacl<\ille  West  to  Mr.  Kayiu'd. 
(Note  Verba le. I 

Ut'V  Majesty's  tioveiiiinciit  have  just  leceived  the  particu- 
lars of  the  I'laiiiis  for  compensation  on  account  of  Hritish 
sealers  sei/.eil  and  warned  otf  liy  the  I'liited  States  autlioritieH 
in  Herini;  Sea. 

A  jtist  assessment  of  these  claims  appears  to  them  ditliciilt 
without  investifiation  and  verilication.  and  they  therefore 
wish  to  a.scertain  whether  the  I'liited  Stales  (Jovernment 
would  be  disposed  to  aj;ree  to  a  mixed  commission,  to  be  re- 
stricted to  iiKniiriii};  in  each  case  whether  compensation  is 
due  and  the  amoiiiit  of  such  coin))ensiitioii. 

Washington,  April  is,  isss. 

Number  :{7  is  a  letter  fiein  .Mr.  Hayard  to  Mr.  West,  as  fol- 
lows: 

No.  ;>7. 

Mr.  Hayard  to  Sir  !,.  S.  Sackville  West. 

(Note  V(>rbale.l 

Deiiartment  of  State. 

Washiiif^ton,  Ajiril  :21,  1SI»S, 
Kesjiondin-,'  to  the  note  verbale  of  Sir  Liimel  West,  dated 
tlie  istli  instant,  it  is  sufrpsted  on  behalf  of  the  I'nited  States 
that,  as  the  cases  of  seizure  of  Hriiish  vessels  in  Hering  Sea, 
therein  referred  to.  are  now  in  court  iiendin}<  an  appeal  from 
^o  a  judicial  decision,  it  is  preferable  to  await  the  judgment  of 
the  aiii»ellale  ciMirt    in   the  premises. 

.Mr.  I'elers: — Tlial  is  all  (lie  corresjiondeiici  I  jnopose  to 
refer  to  as  contained  in  this  executive  docnnient  number  lOt!. 
I  also  wish  to  refer  to  a  letter  contained  in  the  case  of 
(ireat  Hritain;  I  am  reading  from  the  .\merican  reprint. 
For  the  sake  of  convenience,  I  projiose  all  throii>{h  to  refer 
to  the  American  re-iuint  of  these  document.s.  The  letter  I 
refer  to  is  in  \'ol.  V..  ].a};e  (!4.  a  letter  from  M.  !>.  Hall, 
Oo  ''"'f<'<l  folates  District  Attorney,  dated  Sejitember  20.  188(5, 
to  Honourable  A.  I'.  Swineford,  Governor  of  Alaska,  refer- 
ring jiarticiilarly  to  the  cases  of  tlie  "randeiiu"  and  the 
"Thornton."       lie  says: 

"There  are  now  lyiiif-  at  Ounalaska  three  F^nulisli  schoon- 
ers .seized  f(ir  violation  of  our  laws  against  killing  fur  bear- 
ing animals  within  the  territory.  The  cargoes  of  these  and 
one  other  .sclKHUier.  consistiu};  of  over  2(11)0  seal  skins  for- 
feited under  tliese  laws,  are  stored  at  the  same  place.  I'nder 
the  necessary  luoceediiif-s  in  our  ceurt  these     vessels     and 


Tf" 


70 

llit'ii'  ('jir<;<i(-s  liiivi'  lici'ii  iIcci'cimI  roi-rrili'tl.  iiiul  Ihf  iiiarHlia! 
will  lie  r<M|iiii-('(l  Id  sell  IIm'Iii.  lit-  is  iilisoliilcly  willioiit  llic 
tiicaiis  lit  »;■('( (ill};  (o  Oii-ialaskii  al  all  unless  lie  ^wh  Ity  wav 
of  San  Fraiicisci),  ami  <'an  (tiily  carry  out  llic  orders  of  (lie 
("oiii't  at   tile  most   serious  iiicoiiveiiienee." 

I  sliii|>ly  put  that  in  to  shew  that  they  themselves  point  out 
and  l>i'iii<;  elearly  hef('i-e  their  own  aiilliorities  the  (ireat  dit'i 
nilty  and  trouble  in  ficttinp;  to  this  jilaee  where  these  vessels 
10  were  lyin;; — tlu-  inaceessihilily  of  the  place.  That  may  he  ma 
terial  hereafter  on  the  i|iiestioii  of  the  dania};e  to  the  ship. 
T  lis  was  with  reference  to  the  "("aroleiia,"  the  "Thoriitou" 
and  the  "Onward."' 

I  wish  now  to  brill};  before  the  ('omiiiissionerM  and  to  after- 
wards put  in  evidence  a  nia]i  which  was  put  in  in  I  Ik-  Tnited 
States  case,  N'oliine  ."!.  .Map  number  .">.  It  is  a  map  sliewin;; 
the  position  of  scaliiij;'  vessels  seized  or  warned  by  the  (Joverii 
merit  of  the  I'liited  States  dnriiif;  tlie  seasons  of  ISSt!,  1SS7 
and  ISS!>,  and  on  that  map,  will  be  found  laid  down  the  exact 
•position  of  the  seizure  of  the  "raroleiia."  With  your  Hon- 
ours' permission  I  will  shew  you  that  (losition  on  the  chart. 
(Chart  shown  ronimissionersi.  I  brin<;  to  your  attention  tli<' 
fart  that  this  (hicumi'iit  ]airpoits  to  have  been  |U'epared  at  the 
ollice  of  the  I'liited  States  t'oast  and  <ieo};ra]iliic  Survey  in 
the  Otlicial   Keports  of  the  State  Department. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — We  accept  it  as  authentic. 

Mr.  I'eters; — I  mav  state  whilst  I  am  addressiiii";  the  (^oui 
•''  mission  at  this  time  that  the  correspondence  I  have  road  refers 
eipially  to  all  the  cases  in  ISXI^  with  this  <lilfi'reiice,  the  only 
addition  will  be  in  the  other  cases  that  tiie  record  which  will 
be  juit  in  evidence  will  be  of  course  the  record  apitlicable  to 
that  case.  We  have  all  the  records  here.  The  rest  of  the  cor 
respondeiice  we  think  will  be  ajiplicable  to  each  case. 

Now.  ha  vim;  made  these  remarks  and  liavinj;  read  that  «'vi 
deuce  we  propose  to  call  our  witness-,'s  to  };ive  their  evideiici- 
viva  voce  relatiii};  to  all  the  daiiia};e  which  we  propose  to  siib- 
,(i  init  befor<'  the  Tribunal.  I  do  not  think  that  anythiii};  wcmid 
be  j;ained  by  my  specitically  stating;  all  the  ite'i's  of  dama};" 
because  they  will  make  themselves  clear  as  the  witnesses  are 
examined.  One  matter  I  wish  to  brinj;  to  the  attenti(Ui  of  the 
< 'iimmission.  we  have  a  witness  here  name(l  Markelich.  Mr. 
Marketich  was  mate  <ui  board  the  "Onward"  when  she  was 
seized  in  ISSfi.  Jle  resides  as  a  matter  of  fact  some  whei'e  up 
the  West  t'oast.  a  very  considerable  distance  from  here.  The 
steamer  by  which  he  am'H  to  his  home  leaves  here  to-ni};ht. 
and  if  he  is  detained  here  after  (o  iii};lit  it  will  be  for  nearly 
5f)  three  weeks,  which  to  a  man  in  his  .'aatioii  would  be  a  };reat 
inconvenience  and  expense.  Mis  evidence  relates  to  what 
took  place  ill  ISSfl  when  he  was  mate  of  the  "Onward."  I 
have  spoken  to  my  learned  friend,  and  suf;};ested  that  under 
the  ( irciimstaiices.  even  if  a  little  out  of  order.  I  nii};lif  he 
allowed  to  examine  .Mr.  .Marketich  at  once,  so  he  nii};lit  leave 
lo-iii};lil.  If  that  meets  the  approval  of  the  Commissioiiers, 
I  will  ju'oceed  to  call  him  before  calliii};  .Mr.  Miiiisie.  Ilur 
main  witiiess  on  the  "< 'aroleiia." 

t,o         The  <  "ommissioiier  on  the  part   of  the  I'liited  Slates: — Mr. 
I'eters  hadn't   you   better  make  your  tender  of  this  evidence. 

Mr.  reters:— I  lender  in  evidence  the  letters  I  have  re 
fericd  to  jier  the  numbers  niven,  the  poi'tiou  of  the  rec(M-d  I 
have  referred  to,  the  extract  from  .Mr.  Itall's  letter  also  r'; 
ferred  to.  and  tli<'  chart. 

The  ('ommissioiier  on  the  part  of  llci-  .Majesty :- Those  ar" 
in    Sllbjei't    to   obiecliuli. 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


.loliii  MaiUcticli— <'iillt'<l  oil  till-  piirl  of  llcr  Uritiiiiiiic  Mn- 
jcslv.  The  witness  liiiviii};  Im-cii  diilv  swoiii  Icslilii'd  in  an 
swtT  (0  inlcrro^iiitdiics  liv  Mr.   rdcis  as  follows: — 

iy — What  is  voiir  name?      A. — lolin  Marketich. 

(^.—.M)..  Markcticli.  wlicic  do  \<ni  live?     A.— Kuiahif. 

(i. — That  is  on  the  wcs,"  coast  of  Vanconvcr?  A. — The 
west  side. 

(y — I  believe  there  is  a  sieainer  j;oes  down  there  is  there? 
A. — Yes  sir. 

(i.— l>oes  she  leave  to-nij,'lit  ?       A.— Leaves  to  iiitlht. 

(J.__\Vlien   will  the  iie.\t   steamer  have?       A.— Fifteenth. 

(^.—Fifteenth  of   Kecemher?       A. — This  month.   December. 

Q. — Do  von  carry    on  business  at   Encaliit?       .\. — \<'s  sir. 

Q.— What  is  voiir  business  there?  A.— Keeji  a  store, 
trading;  amours;  the  Tndiaiis. 

g.— Were  von  on  board  the  "Onward"  in  the  vear  ISSfi? 
.\. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— In  what  capacitv?      .\.— .\  mate  and  interpreter. 

i}. — "\'oii  liJi.e  been  there  for  many  years?  A. — Thirty- 
five  years. 

The  Comniisioner  on  the  i>art  of  Her  >Fajesly :— Of  what 
nationality  is  the  witness? 

Mr.  Peters: — lie  is  a  (ieriiian.  I  think  Ito  witness!  what 
nation  do  yon  bi'lonj;  to?       A. — Austria. 

(i.— Yon  were  on  board  the  "Onward"  in  ISSO  as  mate  and 
interiireter?       .\. — Yes  sir. 

Q, — And  you  were  on  her  when  she  was  seized?  A. — Yes 
ftir. 

Q,_I)o  v,,u  remember  what   time  yon   went   into  the  IJelir- 

int;  Sea  iii  that  year?      A. — Well,  it   was  a  lonff  time  a^-o.  I 

have  forgot.  I  :hink  it  was  some  time  in  July. 

.1      _     _-    .    .      ..  1     1.    •.,...A->         V        \-..u 


811 


ive  tor^tot.  I  :linik  ir  was  some  lime  in  .\\}\\. 

{}. — Do  yon   reiiieiiilier  when  you   were  seized?       A. — Yes, 

r. 

Q.— What  day  were  yo\i  seized?       A. — The  second  Anfiiist 
-moriiiiif; — si.\   o'cloi  k. 

(i.— What   crew  had  you  on  board?       .\.— Indians, 

Q. —  How   many   India'ns?       A.— Si.xteen. 

v^.-    Il<>\\    many    white   men?       A. — Four. 

Q. — Was   thai    beside   the   cai>tain    and    you?       A. — .MIo- 
nether. 

(}. — How  many  canoes  did  yoii   carry?       A. — Eifjlit. 

(i.  —How  man,,    boats?       A. — One. 

(.y — Was  that   a   rcfinlar  sealiii};  boat,  or  the  ship's  boat? 
.\. — No  sii',  liel  iiijred  to  the  schooner. 

Q. — What  is  called  ilii'  shiji's  boat?       .\. — Yes,  sir,  ship's 
boat. 
'1°         Q.— Did  any  of  the  white  men  hunt?     .\.— \o  sir. 

Q.— .\ll   till'  liimtiiis;   was  d<Mie  by   the  Indians?       A. — In 
dians. 

Q. — ■^  on   had   been   sealint;  before  yon    went    into   RehriiiK 
Sea,  on  what  is  called  the  Toast?       .\. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did   you    catch    many    seals    there?       .\. — rau;;ht     be 
fween  live  and  .'^ix  liuiidi'e<l. 

Q. — Did  yon   take  those  seals  into  IJelirinj;  Sea   with  yon'.' 
A. — No  sir. 

Q. — What   did   von   do  with   the  seals  that    von   cani;ht    on 
'°      the  ("oast?       A. -Left    them  on   the   W<'st   f'oasl. 

Q. — To  be  sent  to  X'ictoria?       .V. — Yes  sir. 

Q. — So  that  von  went  into  Rehriny  Sea  without  any  seals? 


A.— Y 


es,  sii 


Q. — Xow.  when  yon  were  cantjlit  how  naiiy  sti'als  had  yon' 


A. — (lot   four  hundred  on  Jioaid. 

Q. — Thai  was  in  the  iiiornin^;  I  hat  yon  were  sei/.ed 
In  the  morning,  six  o'clock. 

Q, — Did  yon  catch  iiiiy  seals  that  dav?      .\. — Xo   > 


A,— 


I,  'I  ^^ 


in 


JO 


30 


4fJ 


^o 


60 


Q. — Were  the  boats  iiit  wlicii  voii  wen-  ciiiif^lit?  A. — Xo, 
sir;  llicv  wnc  Mhoiird 

i.i. — And  (lie  ciiiMK  <  \.('i(.'  iihoiii'd?       A. — Vcs,  sir. 

Q. — Was  il  a  aooO  si'aliii<j  dav?  A. — Vcs,  sii",  vcrv  tine  in 
llif  (of.MKKin;  allt'i  .vaids  vcfv  lliicjc  fofi. 

(i. —  In  till'  {'«):•(■■. ooii  was  a  very  line  day?  A. — N'ci'y  tine, 
ii  ii<Hu\  scaling  d  ly. 

ii. — Wlial  wi'ir  yoii  ddinj;  wlirn  I  lie  "(Joi'win"  came  aionfj? 
A. — W<'  were  ,ill  ready  lo  lowrr  ilic  canoes. 

Q.— Wcr  llicic  sca'is  in  sijilif.'  A.— Tlicrc  were  lots  of 
seals  ar<  iind. 

t^.— ilow  many  di<l  you  latcli  liic  day  lieforc?  A. — fiol 
Konietliin^r   lilic  one   Inindi-ed. 

i-i. — And  tliat  day.  yon  sa\,  was  a  ^ood  scalinji  day.  tlie 
second?  A.— Tin'  second  day  wonld  lie  very  };()o(l.  tlie  fore- 
noon.      TIh'  afl  M-noon  would  lie  very  liiick  i'o'X- 

(i. — Xow,  wImI  lia|i|iened  wlien  tlie  "("orwiii  ■•.inie  alon'_'- 
side?       .\. — She  ask  ns  "W  .lal  you  di    iliei'e.'' 

(I. —  l>id  lliey  ((line  on  hoai'd?       A. —  \o.  '<'\v. 

i]. — Tlwy  Iniiled  yon?       .\. — Yes.  sir. 

ii. — .\n(l  asked  you  wliai  you  was  doiiit;'  iliere?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

(.}. — XYliiil  did  Ike  caiitain  say?  A. —  lie  says  "Sealiiifi." 
lie  says  "lla\e  yon  v'l'l  any  s<'als  on  hoard''"  lie  says  "X'es, 
sir."  "How  in.any?"  '•I'oui-  ImiHlrcd."'  ■•Well."  he  says. 
"I  seize  you,"  and  he  lowei'  a  lioal  and  he  come  aboari'. 

ii. — What  hajiiieiied  Iheu?  A. — Vu\  a  line  around,  fastened 
lo  the  liow  of  llie  schooner,  ami  come  liai'k  almijiside  the 
"Corwin." 

ii. — So  that  if  I  un  lersland  you  li^hl,  he  came  alioai'd,  fas- 
tened a  low  line  (o  liie  how  of  the  "Otnvari'  "  :'d  then  ]iut 
three  men  on  hoard,  and  llu'\  started  to  low  V.-'Told  ns 

lo  ito  down  helow  . 

ii. — Who  did  he  say  to  ^o  down  helow?  .\. — The  crew 
of  the  vessi'l. 

ii. — .MI  the  crew  of  liu'  vessel?      .\,  — X'es.  sir. 

ii. — Were  yon   included  in  llial?       .\. — ^'es.  siv. 

ii. — Mid  he  s|ieak  lo  Ihe  cajilain  also?       A.  —  X'es.  sir. 

ii. —  Did  yon  !;-o  helow?       .\. — X'es.  sir. 

ii. — Had  they  anollier  \-essel  in  tow  ai  that  lime?  .\. — 
They  had  two. 

<2.— That  is  ihe  "('arol-na"'  and  "TlKiriiion"?  .\. — The 
•'("aroleiia"  and  the  ••  riiornlon." 

ii. —  What  hapjiened  then?       .\. — The\   look  us  lo  Onnalas 
ka. 

ii. — How  many  men  did  yon  say  they  piil  on  hoard  your 
schooner?      .\. — Three  men. 

<i. — .\nd  an  ullicer?       A. — One  otlicer  and   iwo  men. 

ij. —  llavinu:  ^'ot  you  lo  Alaska,  what  haiipened?  .\. — They 
let  <n)  anchor  ihemsehes.  lowered  canoes  and  hoals.  and  look 
lliem  ashore. 

ii. — .\iid  lefl    win  on  hoard?       .\. —  I.efi   us  on   hoard. 

ii. — Were  the  cimoes  lii'ouuhl  hack  to  the  \-essel?  A. — 
\o.  sii'. 

<i.--()r  Ihe  hoif       .\.— Xo.  sir. 

O-^'l''"'.^    were   Ink. 11   away  alloc-cihei?       .\. — .Miojiether. 

<i.— What   did   the  iiitler  do?  .\.      haid  ahm;.iside. 

ii.     How  far  nir?       .\.— Oh.  about    Km   \aids. 

ii.  \Yell.  how  loii^  did  yon  slay  that  way?  .\hoiil  10 
da.\s. 

<^  huriny  ilial  lime  had  you  coiiimiinicalion  wiili  Ihe 
.'•'hore?       .\.     Well.   I    was  once  ashore. 

f^.  Why  didn'l  you  <io  ashore?  .S.  — He  lold  us  we  could 
only  <:(>  f(  nr  nwii  at  each  lime. 

Q. — Yon  wer:'  ashoie  once?       .\  — I    was  ashore  once. 

0.-  Dni'infr   l!ial    leu  days?       .\. — Yes.  sir 

Q.-  .\f(er  you  had  been  kepi  there  for  ten  days  what  haji 
Jieiierl?       A.     Well,  one  day   l.ieuleiur.i   come  aioii^rsiile.  and 


-Xo, 


-Y.'s, 


A.— 


lO 


20 


lio  asked  whiit  jtrovisioii  we  iiiid  (Hi  hoiird,  lie  told  iiic  to  take 
Konif  lu'ovision  and  i)asH  alxiai'd  tlic  sclutoiu'i-  "San  Dicf^o." 

Q. — That  was  an  Amci'ii'aii  scliomit'i-?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

(}. — Also  scizid?       A. — Slic  was  seized  too. 

(-i- — Von  was  lo  \»'n'  ilie  provision  fi'oni  yonr  sliip  and  pnt 
it  aboard  tlie  Hclioonei'  "San   l>ief;o?"'       .\. — Yes,  sir. 

<l. — For  liow   nianv  men?       A. — T!ie   wliole  crew. 

Q.— For  liow  ionfr?       .\.— For  H)  <1mvs  or  IL'  days. 

Q.— Did  yon  "l(»  tliat?       A. — Yes.  sir. 

<i- — Y(ni  look  yonr  jp'ovisions  and  |)nt  tiiein  on  tlie  "San 
Diesro;"  wliat  wis  don.-  M.-n?  .\.— He  told  me  to  take  my 
Indians  and  jro  alioai-d  tl;  ■  s<liooner  "San  Dief^o." 

Q. — l>id  yon  do  tlia*?       A  — Yes    sir. 

11 — So  that  the  whole  of  yon  weic  on  the  "San  Diefco." 
ttliile  men  and  ;;ll?       A.— Three  white  men  an<l  Indians. 

Q- — Were  tlieic  any  other  men  on  heard  the  "San  Diejio?" 
A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q— IIow  nniny?  A.— I  have  torj^ot.  The  erew  of  the 
•San   Die^o"  w.is  a    Ahite  crew. 

Q- — Von  don't   remember  huw  manv?       A. —  I  forfiel   it. 

Q' — Were  there  two  crews  then  ]ini  on  hoard  tlie  "San 
Die^o?"       A.— Only  one. 

Q' — "^'<"i  were  all  placed  (tn  board  this  ship  and  taken 
nway?       A.— Taicen  to  Siika. 

Q.— Yonr  own  shij)  was  left  there  at  Onnalaska?  A.— Yes 
si'.'. 

Q.— And  were  the  "Carolina'"  and  "Thoiiilon"  left  there? 
.V. — Ve.s,  sir. 

Q.  — And  the  crews  were  taken  to  Sitka"'      .V.~— Yes,  sir 

(i. — And  yonr  crew  were  (aken  nji  bv  the  "San  Dieijo'"' 
A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — What  son  of  accommodations  did  von  have  on  tlie 
way  nj)  to  Sitka?  .\.—y,.\y  ]„mi:  the  vessel  leaked,  and 
was  half  full  of  water;  a  very  old  vessel. 

Q.— What  si-/,"d  cabin  diirtliev  liave?  A.— Well,  verv 
small. 

Q.— now  nia:iy  ni-n  were  kept  in  it?  A —About  tliirtv 
nn'n. 

Q.— Foi'  instance,  what  sleepinjr  accommodatiim  did  yon 
have?      .\. — Slept  on  "the  lloor  and  senietinies  on  the  deck. 

Q. — Did  yon  have  anything:  to  sleep  on?  A. — Mv  own 
blankets. 

Q.— .\nytliinj;  in  the  way  of  a  mattress?       A.— Xo,  sir. 

Q.— Or  a  hamniock?       .\.— Xo.  sir. 

Q.— Yon  had  to  sh'.'p  .in  the  lloor?       A,  -Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Dow  many  davs  were  yon  ao'iujr  lo  Siika?  .\ Twel  e 

days. 

Q— Was  that   a  comfortable  V(>vanV'       .V.— Oh  no    oli  no 
50      W'vy  hard. 


30 


40 


(i.— .\nd   when  yon   ^-ot    lo  Sitka,   what    did  ihev  d< 


yon . 
rack.s. 


Tliev  lohl  ns  t( 


with 


asiiore  ami  to  sleep  in  tlw  bar 


Q.— What   we'-e  Ihc^e  bar 


two  davs  and — 
Q. —  Von   were  lak 


racks : 


A.— W 


e  stayed  there  for 


to   tlie 


barr; 


(i. — TIow  nianv    wcie   laki'ii   th 


first' 


A.— Y 


es,  sir. 


.Ml   the  crew  of 


60 


whites  except   two  men. 

Q'— What  became   if  ilw  In. bans''       ,\,-_'piiev  let  tl 


(}. — Dow  many  men  \m  at   i.i  th.'  I 


Om 


Q.— n> 


ov  mam   r.ionis  < 


lid 


leni  po. 

'■iira.ks''       .v.— Eight. 


voii  liave  1.1  sleep  in  there?  A. 


Q.— For  the  whole  of  yon?       .\.— For  ili.'  wiaile  of  ns. 


Q.— What    slec 


We  slept   (in  the  ||oo 

Q— Anylhlnn'  lik-'  a  mall 


pinu:  ac. -0111111. idaii. Ill    h.i.l    \.iii    iher,.?   .\. 


-X 


ress  or  lininnio.'k 


o,  sir. 


(,*. — Did  yon  .-  [ippiv  y 

Q.-IIow  did  ihev  Ici'd   von   (hen 


oiir  own  lilani 


A. 


liM'll     Mill?       .\. 


ery  poor. 


■^ffl 


'4 


lO 


20 


40 


;o 


Oo 


Q. — How  iniiiiv  niciils  did  llicv  ^'ivc  vol 
day. 


A. — Two  ('\cry 

*-l- — Where  were  v.tii   fed?       A. —  In   llie  same  room. 

Cl — So  then,  voii  slept  tmd  ate  in  the  same  room,  and  von 
fixy  von  had  oniv  two  meals  a  day?       A. —  Ves.  sir. 

ii- — Von  wouldn't  do  mneh  sealing'  on  that  would  vou?  A. 
—No. 

(i. — ilow  louff  did  von  stay  there?       A. — One  month. 

ii. — Were  all  those  men  there  one  month?       A. — Ves,  sii'. 

(■i. — Were  vou  taken  up  before  the  Court?  A. — Ves,  sir. 
l$efoi'e  I  fjot  into  f;aol. 

ii. — Did   thev   have  a   trial   over  you?       A. — Vet«,   sir. 

Q. — And  you  wei'e  sent  to  s;aol  for  a  month?    A. — Ves,  sir. 

(). — And  .von  slaved  that  month  in  ;;aol?       A. — ^'es,  si-. 

(i. — When  you  mtt  out  of  >,'aol  what  did  you  do?  A. — I  ((une 
tile  next   morning  on  hoard  a  sehooner  for  \'ictoria. 

(i.— So  that   so  far  as   sou   wei-e  concerned    vou   were  a<-tn 
ally  ]»resent   in  tluise  harracks  for  one  month  on  two  meals 
a  day  and  ei}i;ht  men  in  the  same  I'oom?       A. — Ves,  sir. 

Q. — The  <"onnnissionei'  on  tlie  part  of  Her  Majesty: — How 
hn'fte  was  the  room?  .\. — Ten  hv  twelve,  the  room  we  slept 
in. 

Q. — Was  it  a  hif^h  room  or  a  low?       A. — I'retty  hif;h. 

t^. — And  that  was  the  room  you  were  confined  in.  eiy;ht  of 
yon,  foi'  a  month?       A. — Ves,  sir. 

Q. — Now,  when  vou  were  before  the  <'ourt,  what  did  they 
call  vou  there?       A. — ("all  me  robbers. 

Q.— Who  called  you   n.bbers?       A —The  .ludfje. 

Q. — Who   was   tiie  .lud}ie?       A. —  I   forget    his  name,   he  is 
3<^     dead  now. 

Q. — The  name  he  called  yon  liy  was  robbers?  A. — Ves, 
sir. 

{}. — Did  he  call  yon  that  more  than  once?  \. — Two  or 
three  times.       Robbiiip;  seals  from  American  waters. 

(.}. — That  was  the  history  of  it  so  far  as  you  were  con- 
cerned?      A. —  Ves,  si''. 

Q. — Vou  were  taken  there,  kepi  in  ,','aol  a  month,  and  then 
came  down  to  N'ictori.i?       A. — Ves.  sir. 

(i.— Who  paid  yoni'  expenses  down?  A. — Siune  money 
come  from  \'icloria. 

ii. — Had  you   any   money   with  you"'       .\. —  Ves,   sii'. 

Q. —  Yon  had  some  money  with  yon?  What  became  of 
your  money?  .\. — The  linlians  at  Sitka.  I  fiave  the  money 
to  my  Indians  to  buy  bread. 

(i. — And  yoi!  j;ave  them  >oui'  moni'V?  A — I  throwed  it 
down   to  them — part — thron};h   the   window. 

t^. —  How  much  nioiwy  did  you  (iive  lo  tlie  Indians?  A. — 
S(miethin<i    between    .*l(l    and'  SH .";. 

Q. — Now  I  w.inl,  leavinu;  your  own  case  for  a  mtunent,  ycni 
to  be  kind  enoanh  to  tell  inc.  we  will  take  your  own  vessel 
first,   who  was  the  captain?       .\.— f'aptain  Daniel  Alunro. 

Q. — Will  you  tell  nic  the  names  of  the  while  men  that  were 
on  board  the  ship?       A. — I  coiildirt :  I  have  for};ol ;  il    is  so 
lonfj;  a^'o  1  l.a\e  forfrol  il.       One  is  here  in  town  now.  named 
Tommy. 

Q. — Von  don''   Tcm'snlier  llic  names  of  the  men?       .\. — No. 

Q. — Do  you  iciMcnber  the  names  of  (he  men  who  were 
jiresent   with   ytm?       A. — Ves,  sir. 

Q.— Who  were  lhe\".'       .\.— Mvself.  ("ai'lain    Hansen. 

Q.— Was  Mr.   Ill.iki'  there?     Ves.  sir. 

Q. — Whei'e  was  lie  fiiim.  \\hi(h  shiji?  .\. — The  "rMto- 
lemi."" 

Q. — AVas  ('ajiiain  0;filvie  there?        .\  — A'es.  sir. 

Q. —  He  was  of  the  '•("arolena""?       .\. — Yi-s.  sii'. 

Q. — Was  Thompson   there?       ,\  — Ves.  sir. 

Q.--What   was  he  .loini;?       .\.-  -Afasler  of  the  "Thornlon.'" 

Q. — Was  Norman  (here,  Harry  Nmnian?  .\. — That  was 
the  male  of  the  ' Tlioi'nlon  " 


''■*■. 


"Cnro- 


75 

Q. — He  was  tlicic?       A  — He  was  IIutc. 

(.y — And  von  have  iiu'iitioiicd  (lie  otlu'is,  .Janit's  Ofjfilvie 
iiiKl  .laiiU'S  IMakc?       A. — Vcs,  Mir. 

(^. — Those  arc  tlii'  men  wlio  were  prt'scni  with  jou?  A. — 
Vcs.  sir. 

Q.— Now,  will  voii  liiiully  Icll  iiic,  liaviiij;  done  with  your 
own  actual  ca.sc,  wliat  haj)i)cncd  to  Captain  Ogilvic?  A. — 
lie  run  into  the  busli. 

Q.^llc  went  away  one  morning;,  tliat  was  tlic  hist  you 
'o    saw?       A. — Vcs,  sir. 

(J.— Had  he  lu-cn  found  before  vou  left?  A.— .\fter  I  left 
Sitka. 

Q. — Were  these  otiic  men  kept  there  for  the  same  timi> 
that  you  were?      A. — Yes. 

(i. — ^.Ml  for  a  month'.       .\. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — l>iil  they  .all  have  tlie  siime  treatment  you  did?  .\.— 
All  the  same  tn-atment. 

Q. — Mow  much  did  yon  par  to  };<'t  from  Siika?       \. — f.*?.". 

().— That  is  to  the  West  Coast  where  yon  lived?  A.— No, 
-<->    t(»  Victoria 

(}. — Von  lived  at  X'ictoija  then,  did  you?  .\. — I  live  in 
\'ictoria  and  then  I  ro  ri^iht  to  the  West  (^oasl. 

Q. — How  much  did  it  cos(  to  in't  from  \'ictoria  to  the 
West   Coast''       A.— Well,  about  |7. 

The  (Jimiinissioncr  on  the  i)art  of  Her  Majesty: — \\'hat 
does  he  mean  by  the  West  (Joast. 

Mr.  I'ctcrs: — West  coast  of  Vancouver,  is  it.  A. — Euca- 
i'J    bit — Harclav  t^ound. 


Q. — Had  you  a  family.  Mr.  Marketich?     A. — Ve.s,  .sir. 

Q.— When-  did  they  live  at  that  time?  A.— No,  I  hadn't 
a  family  at  that  time. 

(-i. — (iot    one  since?       .\. — (Jot  one  since. 

(.}. — Vou  wan:  the  money  all  tlK-  more  now?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

il. — Could  you  (live  iiic  the  niiinber  of  the  men  who  were 
on  board  the  "Carolena"?  A. — No.  sir;  they  had  a  while 
crew;   1  couldn'i   tell   ^ou. 

Crosse,\ainin;nion   by   Mr.    l)ickinHon. 

i-i. — Mr.  .Marketich,  you  are  an  .\ustrian?   A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Have  yoii  become  a  citizen  of  (Jreat  l?ritain  or  of  the 
Cnited  States?       A.— (Jreat  Britain. 

Ci. — When?       A. — Oh,  about   six  years  a>;o. 

Q. — Since  the  seizure?       .\. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  since  your  arrest  and  confinement  in  t?aol?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.— You  call  the  ;raol  and  the  barra<kM  the  same  Ihiiifr? 
•\. — Some  call   it  the  tfaol  and  some  the  barr.'icks. 

Q. — Yon  mea'i  the  same  thinj;  when  you  say  the  barracks 
and  the  i.':,\it\'!      .\. — 'S'es,  sir. 


40 


^o 


(i. — Is  it  Itie  same  biiildiiif,'  in  which  you  were  tried?    .\. 


Same  buildinjr. 

Q. — The  court   Iiouse?       .\  — Yes.  sir 
Q. — The  finest  Imildint;  in  .\laska'' 

buildintr. 


.\.— Square  limbered 


Q.   -The  best  buildinf;;  in  .\laska.  isn't   it 


-Yes,  sir. 


(<o 


s.  sir. 


Q. — And  I  he  room  where  ymi  sle]it  in  oi'  were  confined  in 
you  say  Is  a  room  jnsi  over  the  jinltje's  room?      .\. — Y( 

Q. — The  jury   loom?       .\. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — .Vren't  you  mistaken  as  to  tlie  size  of  thai  jury  1 
Ten  by  twelve''     .\.— Oh.   F  am  not  lakinj:  the  size. 

Q. — Did  vou  s,'e  anv  jfrales  to  tlie  window,  any  ir 
-No,  sir;  T  b.ive  for^'Mtcn. 


I'oom  .' 


>n  (ii'ates? 


m 


Q. — .\nd    when    yon    .say    yon    were   confined  in  traul,    yon 
can  you  were  coiittned  in  the  jury  room  in  Ihe  court  hou,se7 


A.— They  call  it  there  ;»  traol. 
Q— Were  the  dix>rs  locked   on   ^ou' 


fimu'd 


ov<'r  us. 


ia« 


76 

.Q. — Wci'c  (ho  tldors  locked  over  vim?       A.— ('i)\il<l  K'ct   oil 
tlu'  vcrandali,  that's  all. 

Q, — W'cii'ii't  voii  pi'iuiitti'd  to  jjo  about  Sitka   bcfoiv  tlu- 
trial  as  vou  plcnst'd?      A.— Iti-fori-  thi'  trial. 

Q.— You   wcni   all  about    a.s    .vou    chose?       A.^Oue    day 
walked  around. 

Q.— Onl.v  one  da.v?       A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Weirn't  vou  permitted  to  walk  around  ev<'ry  day  ni 
Sitka   before  the   trial?       A.— No,  sir;  before   the   trial   one 
'O       dav,  what  I  said. 

i^.— After  vour  arri'-  1  at  Sitka  were  you  siiul   uj.  in  a'AtA 
as  vou  said  a  inov.ienr  ago?       A.— \V«'1I,  the  court   iiouse. 

(). — Weren't  vou  jierinitted  to  pi  about  after  your  arrival 
in  Sitka  before  the  trial?      A.— Hefore  we  {,'ot  tried,  tine  day. 

g.— Wiiere  were  you  confined  in  the  lueantinie?       A.— NNe 
walked  about  there  one  day,  arouuil  Sitka. 

(^._The  other  days  before  the  trial?       A.— Into  court,  K<>t 
into  <iaol  and  tin  y  kept  us  there. 

g.— Tl  ey  kept  you  in  t]\e  ccuirt  house  all  the  time?      A. — 
^^       Yes,  sir. 

Q_-I,ock  turned  on  yoti?       A.— Door  not  be  locked. 

Q._X„\v,  the  captain  of  the  "(Jarolena"— Cap'aiu  (.)};ilvie 
—went  out?      .\.— He  run  away. 

Q.— In  the  day  time?       A.— Morrin^. 

Q._Xo  fruard'attemi>teil  to  stop  him?       A.— Uecause     he 
didn't  know  exactly  wliat  he  was  doini;. 

Q._This  is  in  the  morninti?      .\  — .\l)out  six  o'clock. 

Q. — Was  this  afler  you  ha<l  lu-eii  in  court  and  luid  been 
sentenced?       A.— Hefore  piinjr   into  court. 
3°  Q._You  saw  him  .tro  away?      A.— I  saw  him  n<»  away. 

q._T1m.  door  wasn't   locked?       A.— No,  sir. 

Q.— And  the  t;uard  didn't  stop  him?       A.— No,  sir. 

Q._And  were  you  then  contined  in  this  jury  room  sleepinfi 
on  the  floor?       A.— I  slept   on  the  floor. 

Q._And  ORilvie  in  the  !?an\e  room?      A.— All  m  the  same 

room.  ,         ,!>■>) 

(i.— And   were  then    any  of  the  crew  of  the  "^an   nie{io 

witii  you?       .\.— Two. 

tj.— .Americans?       A.— Two. 

(y_\Vho   were  they?       A.— The  captain  ami   tlie  mate. 
Q|_Who  was  the  captain?       .\.— ('aj.tain  Haynor. 
(j_l)i,l    thi'V   liave    to   sleep   on   the   floor,   too?        A.— ^es, 

(j._ Weren't  vou  all  )ieiniilted  to  brum  you  beddmii  tiom 
ilie  ship?       .\.- AVe  fiot   no  beddinjr. 

Q__Wei'en't  you  told  to  biiuK  nil  the  beddinji  you  cliose. 
_\. Thev  tohl  us  to  brin^  blankets  u]i. 

Q._Y(>u  were  permitted  to  briuf;  thc.se  up?       .V.— Yes. 

Q._And  the  only  reason  you  didn't  briny;  a  matlre.«s  was 
vmi  couldn't  pack  it?       .\.— Yes,  sir. 

Q._You  went  to  the  ship  and  got  what  you  wanted,  did 
Y,„]7      .\. — Yes,  sir;  otir  own  clothes. 

Q  _Xnw.  witness,  were  vou  confined  in  that  place  after 
ycmr  trial  for  ihirty  days?'  A, -They  kept  us  there  in  jail 
all  the  time  one  moulh. 

Q.— Didn't  you  fjo  out   after  lifK'cn  days?       A.-  No.  sir. 

Q__I)i(l  von  i.r(.t  enounh  to  eat?       .\.— No.  sir. 

Q.__What  did  they  a'wr  you?       .\.— Sail   salmon  and  veni 

60      son. 

Q._I)i,l  tliev  make  any  dilTereiice  tielween  the  Ileal iiient 
of  vours.'If  and  (he  prisoners  of  (he  "San  Uien'o"?  Did  th<-v 
treat  you  all  alike?      A.^-All  alike. 

Q.— Your  caiuain  was  liiptain  Miinroe?       .\.— ^es.  sir. 

Q.__Who  were  you,'  owners?       A  ^^<'ai>taiii  Spiin^r. 

Q._Anvone  elsi'?       -V  — T  don't   know. 

Q.-_|>irt  you  ever  hear  of  Md.ean  owning  anylhiu).'  in  llie 
ship?  A.--I  know  of  hi#  Iteing  (he  cai»tain  of  the  -Favour 
ite." 


40 


?o 


"^' 


lO 


lO 


30 


(J. — Vim  (lidn  t  know  vou  had  nuy  other  owuer  tliau 
Siiriiifi'.'      A. —  I  know  (."aplaiu  Sjiriiiy,  Ihat  is  all  1  know  of. 

(I. —  l>i(l  you  employ  Indians  yourself,  is  that  a  part  of  your 
duly  as  nuiu-?      A.—  Xo,  sir. 

(i.— Wiio  (■ini)ioyfd  the  Indians?      A.— The  owner. 

(J.— Who  paid  ihem?  Settled  with  them?  A.— When 
'iiey  come  lo  \i(loria;  jjot  jiay  wlien  they  come  back. 

().— Wlio  lH)u;;lit  the  .suj)|>lies  for  your  ship?  A. — The 
owner. 

t^. — IMd  you  iiave  anything  to  do  with  it?  A. — No.  sir. 

(I. — (►!•  Willi  Ihe  hoard  of  the  Indians?      A. — No,  sir. 

il. — Where  was  Captain  Muni'o  when  the  Indians  came  to 
you?       .\. — .Miinio   the  captain  of  the  vessel. 

(l — Wasn't   lie  arrested?       A. — He  Wi.s  arrested. 

(I. — Was  he  ia  the  same  jury  room  with  you?  A. — Yes, 
sir 

Q. — And  tile  Indians  came  to  you  for  money  to  buy  bread? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

t^. —  l>id  they  ask  the  captain  for  any  money  to  buy  l>read? 
.\. — They  asked  Ihe  cai)tain  and  he  t;o1   no  money. 

Q, — Now.  wiliie,«s.  iioii't  you  know  that  those  Indians  were 
jiaid  by  the  Inited  Slates  Marshal— furnished  with  their 
meals — do  you  know  anything,'  about  it  yourself?  A. — I 
<lon't. 

(i.— They  caim  and  asked  you  for  money,  and  you  gave  it 
to  I  hem?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

(I. — Did  you  ever  before?       A. — No,  sir;  not  before. 

Q. — This  was  not  a  jiar*^  of  your  duty?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — N'or  done  by  you  before?       A. — No  sir. 

H. —  Did  they  i ome  to  your  captain  for  money?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

(). —  Didn't  he  have  any?  A. — lie  ^i)\  no  money  at  that 
time. 

tj. —  Did  you  say  yon  jjave  the  money  in  Alaska?  A. — Ify 
own  money,  a  fi-w  dollars. 

Q. — Was  your  cajitain  with  you  at  tie  time?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

(i. —  Didn't  they  ask  him?       A. — .Vo,  sir. 

i.}. — Hut  only  asked  you?      A. — They  asked  me  because  the 
"^^     cai)tain  couldn't  sjieak. 

Q. — Did  you  turn  to  the  captain  and  say,  these  Indians 
want  money?       .\. — I  t<dd  him  so. 

(}.— ^^■hat  did  he  say?       \ — Tie  say  he  don't  care. 

Q. — And  so  you  };ave  Ihat  money?      .\. — T  fjave  them  some. 

t^. — .^nd  you  can't  tell,  wiliiesw,  whether  those  Indians 
were  boarded  at  the  iiotel  by  the  I'nited  States  or  whether 
they  well'  furnished  abundance  of  food?       A. — No,  sir. 

il. — \du  don't   know  anything'  about  it?       A. — No,  sir. 
50         (I. — And  ail  you  mean  10  be  und<'rstood  ii!^  sayiiiff  is  that 
they  asked  you   for  iiKmey  and  you  jrave  it  to  them?       A. — 
^'es.  sir. 

il — You  nevr  did  il  before  or  since  to  an  Indian,  did  you? 
.\. — No,  sir. 

(I. — Now.  would  1101  they  let  you  n'o  ashore  only  four  at  a 
time  after  they  lowed  you  into  this  plai-e?  A. — F(mr  at  a 
lime. 

(I. — \\\i\  you  only  i;,id  four  white  men  on  your  ship,  had 
you?       .\. — Yes.  sir. 

t^.— So  that  ihcy  let  you  all  K"  on  shore  at  a  time?  A.— 
White    neii  iiiid  Indians — four  at  a  time. 

<i. — \\ 'len  yon  w,'ii'  arrested  you  were  all  sent  below''  A. 
—  Yes.  sii 

Q. — Wha     was  iielow?       .\.^The  cabin. 

•J- — Were  on  put  in  irons  or  hurt  in  any  way?  .\.— No, 
sii'. 

i}. — t^iily  ail  'flicer  nid  two  men  were  ])nt  on  board  tin' 
ship  lo  man  the  shiji^      \. — Yes.  sir. 


60 


78 


It) 


20 


()0 


(2.— And  vdii  wort'  wiit  into  llic  ((niifortiihlc  (iiuntt'iH  »f 
llic  ciilnn?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

(■l- — Wt'ic  (he  IiuliiiiiH  put  in  with  you?  A. — Tin-  Iinliiina 
ditln't  K<)  below. 

ii. — Ho  that  the  liiirdHliip  wmh  in  sending'  you  four  uwu 
down  into  the  saloon?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

t). — When  you  were  sent  below  you  were  seni  into  I  lie  oHi- 
tei's'  cabin  of  the  ship?       A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — And  the  Indians  were  left  above.?       A. — Yes    sir. 

i]. — Now,  you  say  llie  Indians  were  all  ptit  (»nto  the  "San 
Diefjo"  afterwards?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

(2. — ^Vith  you  four  nuMi?      A. — >'es.  sir. 

(-1. —  And  how  many  men  were  on  the  "San  l>iefj;o"  when 
you  arrived  thei'e?  A. — I  forj,'ol  now;  jrot  while  Cicw,  white 
hunters. 

(i. — Did  they  ^ill  remain  on,  loo?      A. — All  ^o  into  Sitka. 

Q. — Did  you  eouiit  the  number  of  men  on  her?  A.— I  lu; 
count  them. 

(i. — IIow  larije  was  the  "San  Dietro"?  A. — I  sui)pose  about 
(i<l  tons. 

(i. — .\nd  your  ship  was  liow  larf?»'?  A. — Oh,  she  be  about 
(iO  tons. 

(J. — Sixty   tons?       A. — Souiethiufi   like   that. 

Q. — You  say  the  tonnafre  of  the  "Onward"  was  tiO  tons? 
A. — Well,  I  d<»n'1  know  aliout  tons. 

il. — ^Vas  the  "San  Diejio"  twice  as  larpe  as  the  "Onward"? 
A. — Xo,  sir;  little  bif;>;est. 

Q. — Do  yt»u  know  anythiu);  about  the  size  of  vessels?  A. — 
>Vell,  I  don't  know  .ibout  size. 

(J. — Y<m  couldn't  tell  by  lookin<;  at  a  ship  her  tonnap'? 
A. — \Yell,  I  suppose  the  "San  Diefjo"  mijrht  be  70  tons. 

Q. — fan  you  fell  about  the  shijt  on  which  you  sailed,  her 
tonnage?      A. — No,  sir. 

ii. —  You  couldn't  tell  what  her  lonnaL'e  was,  havin;;  sailed 
with  and  seen  her?       A. — Carryinf;  about  <!(•  tons. 

t^. — When  you  sjx'ak  of  the  "San  Die^o"  as  beiiifj  of  a  car- 
vy'iu'^  cajiacity,  do  you  mean  that  she  has  a  tonna};e  of  7(» 
tons  or  a  carryi'if;  capacity  of  7(»  tons?  A.— Carry  7(1  tons, 
somethin^r  like  that. 

(i.— Weie  yo'i  wvy  badly  t'catiMl  cm  the  "San  Du'f;o."  A. 
— Oh,  not  bad  treated;  <;ot  our  own  jrriib. 

(i.— You  bought  it,  you  mean?  .\.— I  took  it  from  my  own 
schooner. 

(i. — Did  you  hiive  nretty  ;rood  sujiplies  on  the  "Onwai'd"? 
A. — (iot  enou}:;!i  to  keep  us  for  ten  days. 

iy — Was  it  of  a  jrootl  kind': 


Q.— First  class'; 


-First   class. 


Q.— Didn't  yt»u  ;i<'t  better  supplies  and  bettei'  food  in  Sitk 


than  you  ^ot  on  your  own  shi]>'.' 


A. — Xo,  sir. 


Q. — Wasn't  the  "Onwaid"  furnished  with  a  very  i«oor  class 


of  supplies': 
the  "Ouward. 


.\. — (iot  any  kind  of  preserves  .ind  bac(m  on 


Q. — And  you  had  nood  suii(>lies  on  the  'Onward"?  A. — 
(iood  sup|)lies. 

(J.  -As  flood  as  any  sailinf;  vessel  that  was  out?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  yo  1  ijet  as  fjood  sujiplies  in  the  ffMol  you  speak  of 
as  on  the  "Oiiwiiid"?       A — \o,  sir. 

(■l. — Did  ('.-iptain  K.'iynor  remain  <iii  (he  "San  Diefjd"  when 
vol!  went  on  hei?       \. — Yes,  sir. 


-Yes, 


(.}. — And  was  contiiied  wi(li  you?       .> 

Q. — And  just  ;is  couifortiilile  as  you? 

(i.— Fed  with  the  s.ime  sort   of  food? 

Q. — Did  yon  lave  any  cook?  A. — Some  woman  i-ooked  for 


sir. 
-Yes,  sir. 
Yes,  sir. 


ill. 


(i.— Did  they  cook  the  "San  Di 


tlie  "Onward"  supplies'; 


A.— X< 


sujiplies  separate  fropi 


Q. — (.'ooked  file  same  sn]i)ilies  and  ate  at   the  same  tabh 


•Sau 


''if 


i 


lO 


JO 


30 


40 


;o 


6j 


79 

Vdii  iiiciiii  t(t  It"  uiulci stood  that  the  '•Wmi  lHt'{,'o"  iiicii.  Cap- 
lain  Uayiior  aii'l  his  nu-ii,  lived  on  Ihf  "Onward"  MnpplieH 
alter  llu'y  were  l»roay:ht  ahoard?      A. — Oh,  1  don't  sa.v  tliat. 

t^. — Vou  slate  .vou  tooiv  tile  ••Onward"  snpplies  onto  thi; 
"San  Diefro"?      A. —  Yes,  sir. 

iy — And  .\oii  niive  us  to  understand  that  ;»oii  were  fed  on 
llie  "Onwaid's"  supiilies  on  tiie  "San  Diep)";  lliat  one  cook 
coolied  for  vou  all.  and  vou  didn't  know  where  I  lie  MUi»idu's 
(anie  from  that   the  ( 00k  cooked'/      A. — Well,  no  sir. 

(.y — Were  you  out  in  ISS'j  on  the  "(►nwaid"  in  Itehrinf,' 
Sea?      .\.— No.  sir. 

(). — .Now,  will  you  please  tell  the  ('<tininissioneiM  why  you 
left  the  skins  that  you  ca'sjihl  on  the  coast'.'  A. — Left  them 
at   I'cali't. 

ii. — Where  is  that.'  .\. — ^About  lilMt  niih-s  from  here  on 
the  west  coast  of  X'aiicouver. 

(.y — You  ai'e  ifuile  certain  it  is  not  on  th<'  shores  of  Alas- 
ka".'     A. — Yes,  sir'. 

t^.  — Was  thei'i  a  sort  of  depot  where  the  lielirin^  Sea 
schooners  took  in  their  seiils'.'  A. — .V  sort  of  station  where 
the  sealers  put  in  there  occasionally;  they  left  Iheii'  skins 
there,  and  left    there  foi'   IJeliiinii  Sea. 

(.y — Yon  left  ;ill  the  catih  mad<'  outsi<le  of  Hehrin};  Sea  at 
Kyuiiuof.'      .\.— Yes,  sir. 

(J. — How  far  is  Kyuipntt  from  Herini;  Sea'?  A. — I  could 
not  tell  vou,  I  siipiiose  over  l.tKMI  nii!<'s. 

Q. — Now  you  took  all  these  seals  that  you  left  at  Kyu(im»t 
on  you  way  ujt.  didn't  you?       Xo,  sir. 

(.y — Where  did  Non  catch  them?  A. — <,'atch  (hem  on  the 
\Vest  Toast. 

Q. — Of   X'ancouver''       A. — Yes,  sir. 

'i — ''II  your  way  up  to  KyiKjUot?     .\. — Yes,  sir. 

(y — You  didn't  catch  any  of  them  after  leaving  Kyutjuot? 
A. — \o,  sir. 

(). — Now,  is  ir  about  IdtXt  mih's  from  I'.elirinf;  Sea  to 
Kvuciuot?       A. — It  is  over  that. 

♦2. — l>id  you  catch  any  seals  between  KyiKjuot  and  IJehr- 
injj  Sea?       .\.— No,  sir. 

Q. — You  h;id  Ix-en  catching  seals  up  to  the  time  yon  went 
into  KviKiiiot?     \. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — IJiit  you  ininiediatelv  stopjied  catchiiifr  seals  when  yon 
stiirted  for  Heliriiijf  Sea?       .\. — S'es,  sir. 

Q. — So  tli.it  the  whole  catch  was  taken  in  l!elirinj;  Sea  that 
was  taken  from  you  by  tlii-  ''('orwin"?       A. — Y«>s,  sir. 

Q. — So  y(Hi  didn't  see  u  seal  between  Kynquot  and  IJehring 
Sea?  .\. — We  seen  seals,  but  there  was  bad  weather;  c(nild 
not  lower  canoes. 

Q. — There  wei-e  seals  there,  so  that  you  could  have  waited 
and  <aii}rlit  sea's.  You  swear  you  took  no  seals  between 
Kyu(|U()t  and   I'.eliriiij;  Sea?       .\. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Was  there  any  bad  weather  in  Reliriiift  Sea?  A.— 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  couhl  lower  the  canoes  when  yon  f;ot  into  Helir- 
in?  Sea?       .\.— Lower  them  the  next   day. 

Q. — Altlioujih  the  weather  was  bad?  .\. — Fine  weather 
the  next  day.  some  days  bad  wejither. 

Q. — Did  you  lower  your  canoes  in  bad  weather  in  Tlehrinfi 
Sea?       A. — Xo,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  catch  any  from  llii'  ship?       .\. — Xo,  sir. 

Q. — You  were  seized.  T  think  you  say.  on  tli(>  2nd  of  Au- 
gust?      .\. — Yes.  sir. 

Q.— TTow  long  do  you  fish  in  nelirimr  Sea.  ordinarilv?  .\. — 
To  the  2iid  of  .\ugnst,  from  the  12th  of  .hily  to  the' 2nd  of 
Ani'iist. 

Q. — TTow  long  geii"rMlIy?       .\. — About   ten  or  twelve  days. 

Q. — TTow  long  is  tin-  season  for  catching  seal  in  T'erhiiig 
Se;i?       A. — About  a  'iiontli  .'iiid  a  li.-ilf. 

Q.— What  month?      A,— Angust. 


8o 

(i. — Y(iii  ni'vi'i-  lisli  iiilii  Sc|i|i'iiilM'f".'       A. —  No.  Mir.  bcciiiiHr 
I  no  l>c  tlirrc. 
iy — l>(trH  llic  scii.-Kiii   r'lui   into  Stpiciiilii'i'.'       .\.--Tln'  iiiid' 

tilt'   of  SfplCltlllf'    lllf   XfllMOll    IlilN    I'llll    out. 

ti. — Till'  wt'iilliff  licfomt's  liiid  alxMit  I  lit-  ls(  tif  Sfplcinlici', 
so  tliiit  von  t'iinnot  low<-r  ItoiHs?  A.— Sonii'liini's  tlif  niiiltlli' 
of  St'|iti'nilH'i'  Itihl   wi'iiilii'i'. 

ii. —  rsniill\    (lif   ImI  of  Sci)l('inl)i'i'     till'     Wfiitlifi'     lifiiniit'M 
hiitl.  Just   as   it    Wiis  I't'twtcii   Kyiii|iiol    iiiiil    n<'lii'iii^   St'ii,  so 
liiiit  voii  faniioi   lowfi'  liiials?      A. — \t's.  sir, 
'f         ti- — And  fvi'r,\   iini'  >>f  thosi-  si-als  m)||  swi-ar  Wfi'c  takfn  in 
Hi'lirin<::  St-a?       A. —  ^'I'S.  cvitv  one 

ii. — All  taUt'ii  in  Imw  nian.v  days?       A. — Aliont   l:.'  days. 

(]. — Aitnal  si-alinn    I:.;  days?       .\. —  ^■|•s.   sir. 
-  (i. — And  yon  liati  no  lioal  outside  of  tin-  canofs  tliat   wi-nt 
st'aliii;;,  only  tlif  om-  boat   l)('lon<j:in^'  to  liif  vcsst'l,  ant]  tliat 
•  lidn't  uo  scalin;;?     .V. —  .No.  sir. 

Q— Wasn't    lowt'ifd  otV  tln'  davits''       A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Ordinarih'   I   liclicvi-  f.inors  do   not    calcli  as  nincli  as 
i\  Mt'aliiijr  Imat,  do   ilify?       .\. — Calili  as  liifiii  as  '2'>  in  ont' 
^^     <iiniH'  ill  a  (1,1  V. 

ii. — .\iid  a  boat  latflics  more?  A. — Soint'linii's  with 
Iiiiiitt'rs. 

<.}. — ^'oii  had  no  liniiti-r  at  all  on  llic  "(Jnwartl"?  A. — No, 
isir. 

Q. — No  white  hunt"r  there?      A. — No,  sir. 

Ht'diirit. 

Mr.   Peters:— With  the  foiiseiit    of     the     ("oininissioners   I 
^O     would   like  to  ask   the   witness  whelher  as  a   matter  of  fact 
he  was  in  Ueliriny  Sea  before  oi  after  that  year?      A. — No, 
bir. 

Q. — That  is  the  only  occasion  you  tished  in  ISehrinj;  Sea? 
A. — Only  that  year. 

il. — It  is  the  only  occasion  you  were  ever  in  IJehrinj;  Sea? 
A. — No,  sir. 

(i. — That  was  'Mi?       A. — Kij-hiy  .si.x. 

i}. — Only  oiu-e?       A. — Only  once. 
40         il. —  I   wiwit  also  to  ask  yon  whether  at   the  lime  that  you 
were  seix.ed  von  had  a  tlaf;  liviiij;?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Whiil  "llaj;?       A.— Kn«l"ish. 

Q. — Was  il  left  up  or  t;iken  down?  A. — Tlic  crew  from 
the  revenue  cutler  took  ii   down. 

ii. — When?     A. — The  day  when  tiny  Mi/,eil  it. 

Ke-ci'osH. 


Q. — What  tiiut  did  .\ou  land  the  seals  at  Kyiiiinot?  A. — 
-Q     In  •June. 

Q.— What  day?  .\.--Oh.  1  have  for^jolten  what  day,  it 
was  too  loiij;  aj?o. 

Q. — And  you  landed  the  seals  in  dune,  ISSO?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q.— And  left  for  Beliiin;;  Sea?        \  —Left  for  Uclirinfr  Sea. 

(J. — And  il  took  von  all  the  interveiiin}.'  time  to  f^et  into 
liehrinjj  Sea?       A. —  It   look  us  about   twenty  days. 

Q. — And  you  look  no  seals  on  the  way?       .\. — No.  sir. 

(J.— -Now  didn't  the  sealiiej;  close  (mi  the  iMllh  of  .Xugust 
60     ill  HehriujA  Sea?       .\. — I  don'l   know. 

Q. — When  you  returned  were  the  Indians  paid  off  hei'e  at 
N'ictoria?       .\.  — I   co'ildn'l   tell   you. 

Q. — IHdn'l  you  act  as  inlei'preter.  atid  tlidn'l  .McLean  pay 
off.  you  acting  as  inteipreler:  don't  you  remember  thai?      A. 


-I  coilltln'l   tell,  beiause  I 


was  III  a 


noil 


ler  pla 


Q. — You    wouldn't    I'orfi'el    the   fact    Mould   you;   Ihei'e   we 


i|Uite  a  an 


liber  of  Indians  voii  had  Ihei'e?       ,\. — Si.xtee 


Q. — You   woiildii't    torfief    thai   after  you  jiol   back   lo  \'ic' 


'!*: 


*'^ 


lO 


•On 


A,- 


81 

toria,   lIutMc  vci.v   ImtijiiiH  iiiid  Hiiih'd   with    von  on   tin- 
wiinl"  wciv  iiiiiti  off.'      A.— lie  no  Itc  paid  ill   Victoria. 

(2._I>i«l  von  stt"  lli.'in  i>ai<l  off?       A— No.  sir. 

Q.— And'iHiid  b.v  MiLtan?       A.— Well.  I   ncv.r  Mr.-. 

(i.— And  .von  didn't  lul  as  intiTini-tcr  at  tlio  time? 
No,  sir,  I  W  loft. 

(i.- Yon  l.("  l-ft  wlicro?      A.— 1  {,'<»  lioino. 

Tin-  roniniisMiont'i'  on  tlic  |iai't  of  tin-  I'liitcd  HtntcH:— llow 
man.v  soaJH  did  yon  Hay  tlu-y  had  on  iKtard  wlun  Hci/.cd? 

Ml-.  DirliiiiHon:— Aliont   )(>(»  lie  say»  on  llic  ''Onwnrd." 

(Uiri'HH  taken  nntil  2 ;:?<».) 


2o 


30 


■lO 


And  at  luilf-jtast  two  in  the  afti-rnoon  thf  ConiniiHBioncrs 
icHnnicd  tlicir  scats. 

Mr.  Peters:— Vonr  llononrH,  in  readinfi  the  coiTcsiiondcn<M 
this  forenoon.  I  omitted  tlirce  letters  wliicli  I  wisli  to  have 
entered  in  the  notes.  The  letters  I  refer  to  are  coiitainMi 
in  the  same  document  and  are  as  fcdlows:  No.  l.'i,  a  disjiatch 
from  Sir  Sackville  West  to  Mr.  Hayard.  No.  It!,  a  dispatch 
from  Sir  Sackville  West  to  Mr.  Hayard;  and  No.  17,  a  dis- 
patcli  from  Lord  Salisbnry  to  Sir  Sackville  West. 

No.  1"..  '■ 

i  Sir  L.  S.  Sackville  West  to  Mr.  Hayard. 

Washington,  An^just  11,  1SS7.  (Uecolvcd  An^nst  12.) 
Sir:  I  have  the  hononr  to  inform  yon  that  Her  Majesty's 
tiovernment  have  received  a  telegram  from  the  commander- 
in-chief  of  Her  Majesty's  naval  forces  in  the  I'acitic,  dated 
Victoria,  Hritish  Colnmbia,  An^Mist  7,  reporting  the  s«'iznre 
by  I'nited  States  crnisers  of  thret;  Hritish  Colnmbia  sealinj,' 
schooners  in  Herin^'s  Sea,  a  lonj;  distance  from  Sitka,  and 
that  several  other  vessels  were  in  siffht  beinn  towed  in. 

In  conveyinj;  this  informati(m  to  yon,  I  am  reiinested  at 
the  same  time  by  the  Marqnis  of  Salisbnry  to  state  that,  in 
view  of  th(>  assnVance  ^iven  in  yonr  note  of  the  JSrd  of  Feb 
rnary  la.st.  Her  Majesty's  (iovernment  had  assnmed,  that 
pending'  the  conclusion  of  discnssions  between  the  two  Hiw- 
ernments  on  }j;eneral  ((nestions  involved,  no  further  seizures 
would  be  made  by  order  of  the  I'nited  States  Government. 
I  have,  etc., 

L.  S.  SACKVH.LE  WEST. 


50 


60 


No.  IG. 
Mr.  Havard  to  Sir  L.  S.  Sackville  West. 


} 


Departmentof  State, 
Washintfton,  Anj^ust   1:5,  lH.s7. 

Sir:  I  have  the  honor  to  acknowledj;e  the  receij)!  of  yonr 
note  of  the  11th  instant,  received  yesterday  afternoon,  in- 
t'ormin}{  me  of  a  lelejiraphic  cominnnication  fi'om  the  com- 
nninder  in  chief  of  Her  .Majesty's  naval  forc(  s  in  the  I'acitic. 
dated  at  Victoria.  Hritish  Columbia.  Anj^ust  7,  reporting  the 
seizure  of  three  Hritish  Columbia  sealin};  schooners  "in  Be- 
I'Mifi  Sea,  a  lon^  distance  from  Sitka,"  and  that  "several  other 
vessels  were  in  sif^ht  beiii}^  towed  in." 

The  reference  to  my  note  to  you  of  the  ;{rd  of  February 
last,  which  yon  make  under  the  instruction  of  the  Mai'qnis 
of  Salisbury,  has  cansed  me  to  examine  tlie  exjiresions  con- 
tained therein,  and  I  can  discover  no  t;''"""'^  wliatevei-  foi* 
the  asstimption   bv   Her   Majestv's  (iovei'nme.it    that    it    cmi- 

0 


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ScMices 
Corporation 


23  WKT  MAIN  STMIT 

WnSTn,N.Y.  I4SM 

(71«)  t73-4S03 


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30 


Si 

taiiifd  aHsui-JiiK'fN  "lliiit  |M-nilinc  ilu-  <-<tii*luNi<in  of  ilisriiHHioiiH 
iK'twi't'ii  tlu'  two  pivciMJiiciitH  on  j^'-iMM-iil  <|ii<-HlioiiH  jiivolviM, 
no  fiirtlHT  8<'i/.iircH  wcnild  In-  niiuh-  bv  onh-i-  of  (hi'  l'nit«Ml 
KtiitcH  <Sov«'mnii'Ml.'' 

i'lilil  voiir  noti'  of  tli*'  lltli  instant  wax  ivitMved.  I  liad  no 
infonnation  of  tin-  sfizun-  of  tin-  st-iilin^  v«'hs<'Im  tlit'i-fin  r«'- 
fcrivd  to.  and  have  no  knowW-du.-  wliat<'v»'r  of  tl»'  liiruni- 
Htam-fs  nndtT  wliirli  hucIi  »«'i/,nrf»  luivi-  ht't-n  niad«'. 

I  hIuiII  at  onn-  iMuU'av<ir  to  mipplv  nivsi-lf  with  tlic  infor- 
mation niM-t-HHarv  to  maldc  nic  tu  icplv  to  yon  niort'  fnlly. 

Tlic  n\fH'H  of  N<-i/,uri>  rcfcrri'd  to  in  my  noto  of  February  :J. 
1SH7.  laid  o(*iirr*'d  during;  the  pn-vioUH  Aufiuxl,  and  upon 
tli<'  ItasiH  of  the  information  tli<>n  olttaint-d  I  wrote  you  aH 
follows : 

"In  this  conntM-tion  I  take  ocrasion  to  inform  you  that, 
without  (-(uirlusion  at  this  tiin<>  of  any  i|ucstions  wliit-h  may 
b«'  found  to  be  involved  in  these  cases  of  sei/  ire.  orders  have 
been  issued  by  the  I'residenl's  direi-iion  for  the  diseontinu- 
aine  of  all  pending;  proceedinjts,  the  diseluir^je  of  the  vessels 
referre<l  to.  and  the  lelease  of  all  persons  under  arrest  in 
eonnection  therewith." 

Having  n<>  reason  to  anticipate  any  other  seixiires.  nothint; 
was  said  in  relation  to  the  possibility  of  such  an  occurrence, 
nor  do  I  tliid  in  our  correspondence  on  the  subject  any  (;rounds 
for  such  an  understanding  as  you  inform  me  had  been  as- 
sumed lo  exist  by  Iler  Itritannic  .Majesty's  tiovernment. 

.\  sliiM't  time  since,  when  you  called  upon  me  and  person- 
ally obtained  copies  of  th<'  reou'd  of  the  juiiicial  proceediiif;H 
in  the  thr«'e  cases  of  sei/.ure  in  .\u^ust  last  in  IteriiiK  Sea, 
nothing;  was  said  in  relation  to  other  cases.  Whether  the 
circumstances  attendant  upon  the  cases  which  yiMi  now  re- 
port to  me  are  the  same  as  those  which  induced  the  Rxecu- 
tive  to  direct  tile  ri-leases  leferred  to,  remains  hereafter  to 
be  ascertained,  and  tliis  with  as  liitle  delay  as  the  circiim- 
stances  wi|l  permit. 

I  liave,  etc..  T   F.  lUVAKI). 


40 


50 


60 


No.  17. 
Maniiiis  of  Salisbury  to  Sir  1..  S.  Sackville  West. 

Foreign  tlllice,  September   lt»,   \HH7. 

Sir:  lly  a  dispatch  of  the  .tilth  October  last  iNo.  :>I4|  the 
late  Karl  of  ld<leslei);h  instructed  you  to  call  tlie  attention  of 
I  lie  Iniled  States  Secretary  of  State  to  the  circumstances  of 
the  seizure  in  Iterinn's  Sea,  by  the  .\iiiericaii  cruiser  "t'or- 
win,"  of  some  Itritisli  Caiiadiaii  vessels;  and  his  lordship 
directed  you  to  stale  to  .Mr.  Secretary  Itayard  that  Iter  .Ma 
jesly's  tioverniiieiit  felt  sure  I  fiat  if  the  proceedings  which 
wliich  were  reported  to  have  taken  place  in  the  Initetl  States 
district  court  were  <orrecl|y  described  the  I'liited  States 
tioveriimeiit  would  admit  tlieir  ilh-Kality,  and  would  cause 
reasonable  reparatiim  to  be  made  to  the  Itritisli  subjects  for 
the  wnuiKs  to  which  they  had  be<-n  subjected  and  for  the 
losses  which  they  had  sustained. 

Ity  a  previous  dispatch  of  the  !Mh  September,  you  had  been 
desired  to  ask  to  lie  furnished  with  any  particulars  which 
the  liiiled  Siales  lioveriniieiit  nii};lit  possess  relative  to  tlie 
sei/.iires  in  iiuestioii;  .iiid  on  the  llMli  Ocotber  you  were  in 
stnicted  to  enter  a  protest  on  beluilf  of  Iler  .Majesty's  (iov 
ernmeiil.  and  leKcrve  for  consideration  liereafter  all  ri;rhis 
to  compcnsalion. 

Nearly  four  numtlis  liavinv:  elapsed  without  delinile  infor- 
mation bein^  furnished  by  the  I'nited  States  tiovernmeut  an 
to  the  grounds  of  the  seizures,  my  predecessor  instructed  you, 
01,  the  .'^tli  of  .liiiie  i.latMiary'.'i  last,  t<i  express  to  Mr.  Itayard 
the  concern  of  Iler  Majesty's  lioverniiient  al  the  delay,  and 
lo  ur;!e  llie  immediate  atleiitiiiu  of  Ihe  I'uited  Stales  Ouv- 


«3 


20 


40 


50 


60 


orniiii'iit  III  (lir  .Kiion  of  tin-  AiiH-riiiiii  iiiillmiilics  in  tlidr 
Iri-aliiK'nt  <>f  iIh-h*-  v«s«c1s  jiimI  of  llicir  imukU'Im  iiiiil  citwh. 

<Mi  lln':{rd  of  Ffhnijirv  .Mr.  Miiviiid  iiifoiiiicd  voii  tliat  llu- 
rt'cord  of  iIh'  jiidicial  prorciMliiiKs  wliicli  li»*  IiimI  lallnl  for 
was  Hliortiv  cxiMcicd  |o  rijtii  Wawliiiinloii.  and  (liat.  witliout 
coiicliision  al  aii.v  linn-  of  any  (|ii('slionw  wliirli  niitflit  1m' 
found  to  lie  involvi-d  in  iIicnc  casrs  of  seizure,  oidt-rs  had  Itocn 
issufd  ov  III*'  ricsidi'iirs  dintlion  fiu-  tiic  distonlininincc  of 
all  pindinj;  iirociMdinns.  (In-  tlis(liai;it'  of  (In-  vosscIh  rt'ft'ircd 
to,  and  llic  n-lrasf  of  all  pcisons  undor  arrosi  in  conniMHon 
tlincwilli. 

On  till-  till  of  April,  under  inslriietions  from  nie.  you  in- 
ipiii-ed  of  Mr.  Uayar.l.  in  view  of  llic  ap|>roa<liinn  lisliinu  sea- 
son in  r.eriny;'s  Sea.  wliellier  (lie  owners  of  Itrilisli  vessels 
<iii;;lil  rely,  when  not  near  land,  ai  liein^;  iinniolesled  liy  (he 
cruisers  of  (he  (nited  Slates.  iin<l  you  attain  asked  when  the 
record  of  tlie  judicial  pioceediii^'s  niijfht    be  expected. 

.Mr.  Kayard  informed  you.  in  reply  il'-'lh  .\pril|.  that  the 
jiapers  referred  to  had  reached  liini  and  were  lieiii);  examined; 
that  there  had  lieeii  una  voidable  delay  in  framing  appropri 
ate  re<;ulations  and  issniufr  orders  to  the  I'nited  States  ves- 
sels to  police  the  Alaskan  waters;  that  the  lieviscd  Slaliiles 
relating  to  .M.iska.  siclions  lit.'li  and  r.lTl.  contained  the  laws 
of  the  I'nited  Stales  in  n  lalion  to  the  matter;  and  llial  the 
fe;;ulatioiis  were  bein^r  I'c'isidered.  anil  he  would  inform  yon 
at  the  eai'liest  day  possible  what  had  been  decided,  so  that 
Itrttish  and  other  vesseis  nii<;hl  pivern  Iheiiiselves  accord 
injily. 

In  view  of  the  slatements  niaile  by  .Mr.  I'ayard  in  his  note 
of  the  :>rd  February,  to  wliicii  I  have  referred  above.  Her 
.Majesty's  tiovernmcni  assiimi'd  that,  pending  a  conclusion  of 
the  discussion  between  the  two  < ioveriimeiits  <in  the  p'liera! 
i|ueKtioii  involved,  no  fm-ther  similar  sei/.ur"s  of  ISi-itisli  ves- 
sels v.oiihi  be  made  by  order  of  the  I'liited  Stall's  tSovern- 
inenr.  They  learn,  however,  fi-om  the  contents  of  .Mr.  May- 
ard's  note  of  the  i:tth  ultimo,  inclosed  in  your  dispatch.  No. 
24.').  of  the  1.*itli  nitimii.  that  such  was  not  the  meaning  whicli 
he  intended  should  be  attached  to  his  communication  of  the 
:!rd  February;  and  they  deeply  rennet  to  find  a  proof  of  their 
misinterpretation  of  the  intentions  of  the  I'nited  Slates  tiov 
eriimeiit  from  an  .innouncemenl  recently  received  from  the 
comm.inder  in  chii  f  of  Her  .Majesty's  naval  forces  in  the  I'a- 
ciMc.  that  several  more  Itritish  vessels  enjiapd  in  seal  liuni- 
iiifr  in  Ih  rinp:"s  Sea  Inne  been  seized  when  a  lonj;  distance 
from  land  by  an  .\merican  revenue  vessel. 

Her  .Majesty's  tiovernment  have  carefully  considered  the 
liansciipt  record  of  the  judicial  pniceedinj;.-  in  the  I'nited 
Slates  district  court  in  the  several  cases  of  the  schooners 
'•('arolena."  "Onward"  and  'Thiirnton."  which  were  cDiaiuii 
nicated  to  you  in  .Inly,  and  were  transmitted  to  me  in  your 
disjiatch.  No.  lfni.  of  the  12th  of  ihal  month,  and  they  cannot 
find  in  them  any  jiistiticalinn  fur  the  cundemnalion  of  those 
Vessels. 

The  libels  of  information  allege  that  they  were  seized  for 
killintr  fnrseal  within  the  limits  of  .Maska  Territory,  and  in 
the  waters  thereof,  in  violation  of  section  l!».">t!  of  the  Itevised 
Statutes  of  the  Inited  Slates;  and  the  I'liitid  Stales  \aval 

<" maniler  .\bbey  certainly  aHlrmed  that   the  vessids  were 

seized  within  the  waters  of  Alaska  and  the  Territory  of 
Alaska,  but  accordin>{  to  his  own  evidence,  they  were  seized 
7.*),  \\T>.  and  7(t  miles,  respectively,  south  sunt li west  of  St. 
deorjre'H  Island. 

It  is  not  disputed,  therefore,  tluit  the  seizures  in  i|Uestiiin 
were  elTecieo  at  a  distance  from  land  far  in  excess  of  the 
limit  of  maritime  jurisdiction,  which  any  mition  can  claim 
by  international  law.  and  it  is  hardly  niHeMsarv  to  add  that 
such  limit  cannot  be  enlai-;ed  by  any  uiunicipal  law. 

The  claim  thus  set   up  ilppeais  to  be  fonndid  on     lie  excep- 


,    .,    ,^^fW- 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


tional  I  it  If  ^nitl  to  have  Im-cii  ((tiivcvfd  to  tin-  I'liltt'd  States 
Itv  UuHHiii  a  I  I  lit-  liinc  of  tlio  icHMioi   of  the  AlaHka  Toriitui-.v. 

Tho  picl)  ■isi<'ii  wliirli  III*-  KiisKJaii  tiovt-iiiincut  at  ono  time 
|Mit  f«nw:iii'  lo  -MliisiM'  jiii-iK<lii'iio  I  ovor  tlio  wlioU*  of  ll«- 
vlufi  S«':i  WHS.  Imwfvt  r.  in  vi  r  admitted  ritliiT  by  tip  <  vouiitry 
or  the  rnilcd  Si:it<-N  of  Amciira.  On  th*>  runtrafv,  it  waM 
HtiviinoiiMlv  r<-Nir<lid.  »h  I  hIuiII  |ii-c>«>ntly  hIiow.  ami  tlit*  AimT- 
iraii  tiov»'iiiuM'nl  can  hardly  ilaiai  to  liavo  n-rfivc*!  from 
UiisHiu  ri^liiM  wliiili  tlicy  dc>rlari*d  to  Im>  iiiudmi88ihl«'  wlien 
aHHcrtfd  Ity  the  KiiNHiaii  (lOvi'mMicnt.  Nt»r  docH  it  apptMir 
from  tli<>t<-.\l  of  th<>  treaty  of  IsCtT  tliat  HiiHHia  eitlicr  intend- 
ed or  iMirporled  to  make  any  Hurli  ^rant.  for  Ity  Arlifle  I  of 
that  inHtrument  |{nsr<ia  agreed  t«t  rede  to  tlio  I'nited  States 
all  the  territory  and  doiiiinion  then  poHHetwed  by  HuHMia  "on 
the  e«intinenl  of  Ameriea  and  in  the  adjaeeut  iHlandH"  within 
certain  p-itcraphieal  limitH  deKeri)>ed,  and  no  mentitm  wan 
nmde  of  any  exeliiHive  ri>;ht  over  the  waterH  of  Iteriu|j;  Sea. 

Moreover,  whatever  ri);htH  aH  re);ardM  their  re8pe<-tive  snb- 
jects  and  citi/.enH  may  be  r<M'iproeally  eonferred  on  the  Rub- 
Hian  and  Anierieaii  tios-ernnientH  by  treaty  Htipulation,  the 
HUbjeetH  of  Her  .MajeHty  can  not  be  thereby  affected,  except 
by  Hpecial  arraiitfement    with  this  (onntry. 

With  re|;ard  to  the  excluHive  ciaiinH  advanced  in  timcK  pant 
by  KiiHsia.  I  tranHniil  to  you  docnnieiilH  c«»mniunicated  to 
the  rnit«>4l  StateH  t'onnreHs  in  \H'2'2,  which  hIiow  the  view 
taken  by  the  .\nierican  tiovernment  of  thene  pretenRionH. 

In  is:!l  the  Kmperor  of  Hiissia  had  ixsued  an  edict  etttab- 
liHliint;  "rules  for  the  liinitx  of  navigation  and  order  of  com- 
munication aloni;  the  coast  of  the  F]ast«>rn  Siberia,  the  north- 
weHtern  toast  of  .\merica.  and  the  Aleutian,  Kurile.  nud  other 
islands." 

The  first  section  of  the  said  edict  said: 

"The  pursuit  of  commerce,  whalintr.  and  tishin);,  and  of  all 
other  industry  on  all  islands,  ports  and  ^ulfs,  includini;  the 
whole  of  the  northwest  coast  of  .\merica,  IteKianin^  front  Ke 
riufT  Straits  to  the  Tilst  decree  of  northern  latitude;  also  from 
the  .Meutian  Islands  to  the  eastern  coast  of  Siberia,  an  well 
as  alonj;  the  Kurile  Islands  from  Iterint;  Straits  to  the  south 
Cape  of  tlie  Island  of  I'rup,  vi/,..  t(»  the  4ritli  dei;ree  Tii)  minutes 
of  northern  latitude,  is  exclusively  {^ranted  ti»  UusHian  sub- 
jects." 

.\nd  section  _  staled: 

"It  is,  theref(M"e,  prohibited  lo  all  foreign  vessels,  not  <mly 
to  land  <ui  the  coast  and  islands  ItelouKiiiK  to  Russia,  as  stated 
above,  but  also  to  approach  them  within  less  than  UNI  Ital- 

o  conflHca- 


tion,  along  wilh  tlie  wliole  cargo.' 


ibji 


.\  copy  of  these  regulations  was  oHicially  communicated 
SO  t(»  tile  American  Secretary  of  Stale  by  the  RusHian  ininiKter 
at  Washington  on  the  lllh  February,  IH'J'J.  wliereupcHi  .Mr. 
(juincy  Adams,  on  the  'J.'iili  of  that  month,  after  informing 
him  that  the  riesideiit  of  the  I'nited  States  had  seen  with 
surprise  the  assertion  of  a  terrihuial  claim  on  the  purl  of 
Russia  extending  to  the  .'ilsl  degiee  of  north  latitude  on  the 
American  c(uitinent,  and  a  regulation  intedicting  to  all  com- 
mercial vessels  other  than  Russian  upon  the  penalty  of  seiz- 
ure and  contiscation  the  :ippr<iach  upon  the  high  seas  within 
Hit)  Italian  miles  of  the  slioi-ejj  to  which  that  claim  was  made 
09  ti>  appl.v,  went  on  to  say  that  it  was  exjM'cted,  before  any  aet 
which  should  detine  the  boundary  between  the  territories  of 
the  I'nited  States  and  Russia,  that  the  same  would  have 
ln-en  arrangetl  by  treaty  between  the  parlies,  and  that  "to 
exclude  the  vessels  of  .\meiican  cili/.ens  from  the  shore  be- 
yond the  ordinary  distance  to  which  territorial  jurisdiction 
extended  has  excited  siill  greater  surprise;"  and  .Mr.  .Vdams 
asked  whether  the  Russian  minisler  was  authoi-i/.eil  to  give 
explanations  uf  the  "ground  of  right  upon  principles  gener- 


% 


f 


8s 


to 


20 


30 


40 


60 


nlly  rtM-ociiizfd  by  th*-  Iiiwm  aiwl  iiHiip***  of  natiniiH  wliicli  ran 
warrant  tlif  tiaitiiH  an«l  rcKiilntiouH." 

Tilt'  HiiMNian  iiiiniHt<*r  in  IiIh  r<>ply.  dalHl  tlic  L'Stli  February, 
after  cxplaiuini;  liuw  ItuHsia  li;i<l  a<'i|iiiic<l  her  |iimM<>Hsion>(  in 
Nortli  AnH'rira,  said- 

"I  oiifiht,  in  tin*  hiHf  iilaiM'.  to  ri'ipicHt  y<Mi  to  ronnidiT.  Hir, 
that  the  liiiHHian  poHWHHionH  in  tli«-  Pacitic  ()o<>an  <'Xt«>n<I  011 
tin*  northwest  coaHt  of  Anierioa  frenn  Herinp  Strait  to  theolnt 
decree  of  north  latitude,  and  on  the  op|KiNite  Hide  of  AHia  and 
the  iHlandH  adjaeent  from  the  same  Htrall  to  the  4rith  deKrei*. 
The  extent  of  Hea  of  wliieh  I  hew  poHHeHNionH  form  the  limitH 
eomprehendH  all  the  ronditionN  whieli  are  ordin:irilr  attached 
to  Hiint  HeaH  vmn-H  frninrn't,  and  the  ItuHHian  (Sovernnieiit 
mi^ht  eonNetpiently  jud^e  itH*-lf  aiithori/.ed  to  exei-iise  upon 
thiH  sea  the  ri({ht  of  Hovereiftnty,  and  eH|MMially  tl'  it  of  en- 
tirely interdi<-tiiiK  the  entram-e  of  foreijtnern;  but  it  i»n'fern'd 
only  aHsertint;  itM  eHHenlial  ri^htH  without  tai\ine  advanta^te 
of  loealitit'H." 

On  the  :<Oth  Mareh  Mr.  AdaniN  rejdied  to  the  explanntiomt 
pivn  by  the  KiiHHian  niiniHter.  lie  Htaled  that,  with  reHpect 
to  tiie  pretenHiou  advanced  in  re);ard  to  territory,  it  miiHt  be 
considered  not  only  with  reference  to  the  question  of  t«'rri- 
torial  rights,  but  alHo  to  that  pr«»liibitioii  tu  tlie  veMsels  uf 
other  nations,  incliidiii};  tlios<-  of  the  I'nitetl  States,  to  ap- 
proach within  1(K)  Italian  miles  of  the  coasts.  That  from 
the  period  of  the  existence  of  the  I'nited  States  as  an  inde- 
pendent nation  their  vess«'ls  had  fr«*«>]y  iiavipited  these  seas, 
the  ri};lit  to  navi(;ate  them  bein^  a  part  of  that  indt-peiidence; 
and  with  repird  to  llie  su};);eHtioii  that  'the  Wnssian  (Sovern- 
nient  mi);lit  have  jiisiitied  the  exercise  of  sovereijjnty  over 
the  I'aciti<-  Ocean  as  a  dose  si  a,  'becaiiHe  it  claims  territory 
both  on  its  American  anil  .\siatic  slioreM.'  it  may  sutTice  to  say 
that  the  distance  from  shore  to  shore  on  this  sea.  in  latitude 
ni  decrees  north,  is  not  less  than  'Mi  de^rei's  of  lonptiide,  or 
4.000  miles."      Mr.  .\danis  concluded  as  follows: 

"The  President  is  persuaded  that  the  citizens  of  this  I'nion 
will  remain  unmolested  in  the  proseciitiou  of  tl<eir  lawful 
commerce,  and  that  no  elTect  will  be  ^iven  to  an  interdiction 
manifestly  ineoni]iatil(le  with  their  li^ihls." 

The  <-onveiition  between  the  railed  States  of  America  and 
Russia  of  the  ITih  .\pril.  IS24.  put  an  end  to  any  further 
pretension  on  the  part  of  Russia  to  restrict  naviKntion  or 
flsliinir  in  Herini;  Sea  wo  far  as  .Vniericaii  citizen.s  were  con- 
cerned, for  by  .\rticle  I  it  was  a);recd  that  in  any  part  of  the 
fln-at  Ocean,  commonly  called  the  I'acitic  <»cean  or  South 
SiNi.  the  resjM'ctive  citizens  or  subjects  of  the  liitrli  contract- 
ing powers  shall  neither  be  disturbed  nor  restrained,  either 
in  naviffation  or  tisliin^.  save  ;ertaiii  restrictions  wliich  are 
not  material  to  the  ju*  sent  issue;  and  a  similar  stipulation 
in  the  convention  between  this  country  ami  Kiissia  in  the 
following  yi'ar  (ir>th  5Iay.  ISlT)).  put  an  i-nd  as  regarded  Krit 
ish  subjects  to  the  pretensiims  of  Russia  to  which  I  have 
referred,  and  which  had  been  entirely  repudiated  liy  Her  Ma- 
jesty's (lovernnient  in  correspondenie  with  the  Kiissian  tiov- 
eminent  in  IH'JI  and  ISI'U.  which  for  your  more  |iarticular  in- 
formation I  inclose  herein. 

Her  .Majesty's  tiovernment  fee|  sure  that,  in  view  of  t'- 
considenitions  whi.h  I  have  set  forth  in  this  dispatch,  whi. .. 
you  will  communicate  to  Mr.  Hayard,  the  (iovernment  of  the 
I'nited  States  will  admit  that  the  sei'ure  and  condemnation 
of  these  Mritish  vi-nsels  and  the  im)Misonnient  of  their  inas- 
tors  and  crews  were  niit  warranted  by  the  circiimstnnoes.  and 
that  they  will  be  ready  to  iifTord  ri'Osonable  compmsatinn  to 
those  who  have  RiifTered  in  conse<|uence.  and  issiii'  imuiiKliate 
instructions  to  their  naval  officers  which  will  prevent  a  re- 
curri'nce  of  these  regrettable  incidents. 
I  am,  etc.. 

:  sAi.isnrnY. 


f     "  '  T"" 


sr, 

Mr.  IVIcis:-  I'lKlcr  Hit-  rule  jutiviiiKl  l>v  lliis  ('oiniii's«i<in 
iiH  l(»  IIh'  iiis|M'<(i(Mi  o(  (UmuiiiciiIs,  I  pivf  iiolirc  of  iiispccliim 
to  in^'  li'iiriHMl  I'liciMl  witli  iTj;jir<l  lo  (ciiiiiii  (loniiittiitw  in 
iffrn-nci'  (u  <li''  ••Ciirolriiii."  AiiumiksI  ol Ik-is,  1  iiHkcd  liiiii 
f(»i-  (In-  (•frlilltjilf  of  Itrilisli  ic^isln.  Ilic  bill  of  ImmMI..  nurt 
tht'  th'iiranct'.  In  iiiiswcr  lo  tluit  Mr.  Diikinson  iiifoiiiM-J 
wi*>  (hat  ln'  did  not  linvt'  tiir  on};iiials  of  llifw  dociimciitH. 
MtaliiiK  vci-liali.v  tiiat  tlic.v  were  aiim-xtd  to  liic  oriuiinil  iv 
lord  at  Sitka  md  roiiid  not  lie  productMl.  H»',  liowcv t 
'"  fui-niHlu'd  nic  with  a  (op.v  of  tlic  (vilitiratc  of  Hiitisli  ii;^i8 
tr.v,  wliicli  I  now  tcndt-r  in  i-vidi'ncc. 

Docnincnt  fiit-d  aH  Kxhihit  No.  1  for  <J.  H.  in  llie  "Caro- 
loiia"  cam'. 

K.\liil»it  I  conHistB  of  the  (•(•rlillcati-  of  llriliHli  rcifist-v  of 
tlif  "Caroh-n.i."  dated  -MMt  Marrli,  1S7(I,  as  foinid  on  l!i<'  ship 
at  tiic  liini'  of  llic  sci/.nrc. 

Coasting  iicoiisc  of  the  sainc  sliip  for  tlic  vi-ar  ISStl.  diiti-d 
30     Kitli  Fcltrnar.v.  ISSt!,  altfo  found  on  the  sliip  at  tlic  tiiiu'  of 
Hi'i/.iin>. 

Fih'd  ns  E.xliibit  \o.  L'  ".  M..  "('arohMia'"  case. 

Cloaranct'  of  tlic  "Caroh'iia,"  dated  UHli  of  Ma.v.  ISSti.  alse 
found  on  ship. 

Filed  as  Kxhihit  a  H.  15..  "f'ai-olena"  laso. 

Itill  of  healtii  of  tile  slii]i  "t'arideiia,"  dated  !Mh  of  .Mav. 
I.ssti,  also  found  on  ship. 

Filed  as  Fxhihit   No.  4  (5.  15..  "Carolena"  case. 

Mr.  Peters: — (<."ontiniiin^i  I  jrave  iii.v  learned  fiicMid  notice 
t«>  produce  and  also  a  reipiest  for  leave  to  inspect,  the  on^iii 
al  log  of  the  "Carolena"  which,  as  appears  by  the  record  a' 
ready  ]irodiiced,  was  taken  on  board  her.  I  have  an  answer 
from  iny  learned  friend  that  he  had  not  the  log  in  his  pos 
Ki'ssion  and  caiiiiot  produce  it.  I  may  take  that,  I  sii]ipose. 
as  a  statement  of  fact. 


30 


40 


Mr.   IHckinson: 


—  Id   lie  sure. 


Mr.   lV't»'rs: — 1   shall    now   proceed   with    the    evidence    in 
Claim  No.  1,  tic  "rarolena"  case. 


(>o 


CL.MM  \0.  1— THK  "(AUOLKNA." 

William  Miinsie.  of  the  city  of  N'ictoria,  a  witness  produced 
on  behalf  of  Her  Majesty,  being  duly  sworn,  deposed  as  Tol 
lows: 

Fxamined  by  ..ir.  I'efers. 

Q.— Mr.  Miinsie.  yon  reside  in  Vittoria?       A. — 1  do. 

il. — For  how  long  have  you  been  in  business  here?  A. — 
I  have  been  in  \'ictoiia  for  IS  vears. 

Q. — In  what  uar  did  you  become  owner  of  tli,"  sciiooiicr 
"Carcdena"?       A.— About    the  year   ISSfi. 

Q. — Did  the  scliooner  "Carolena"  lit  out  for  a  sealii.;:  voy- 
age in  ISSC?        v.— She  did. 

Q. — What    jKin    did    slie   sail    from?        A.— Victoria. 

Q. — And  she  was  bound  in  wliat  direction,  was  i(  for  ISelir 
ing  Sea?  A. — I  do  not  remember  how  the  clearam-i'  read, 
but  perhaps  it  was  Nortli  Pacilic  Ocean  and  nehriiig  Sea; 
1  Avoiild  not  be  jiosiiive;  the  clearance  is  there  and  speaks 
for  itself. 

Q.— After  the  "Carolena"  suited  from  \'ictoria  on  that  voy- 
age, did  you  ever  see  her  again?       A  -  No. 


fl7 


'Ciiro- 


10 


20 


30 


40 


r^o 


(i.--Tliiit  in  tilt-  liiHl  yim  saw  of  ht-r?  A — Yt%  llu-  ItiHl 
1  s!i\v  of  Iht. 

t^.— V(»ii  Htiitfd  tliiit  yon  iM'cniiM'  owner  of  tin-  '•('iirolcim" 
HoiiicwlHTt'  iiboMi  lH,s"i.'  would  you  kiiMlly  t<'ll  iiic.  did  you 
huy  hiT  all  at  llif  om-  tinu-?      A.— No,  I  did  nol. 

t^.— Wlio  was  tlu-  owMi'i-  of  Iht  wln-n  you  rousnH'int'd  to 
Imy  Ih'I-"'      a. — I  iM-lii-ve  Donald  I'rquliart. 

Q.— Ill  ISS">,  'lid  you  cnttT  into  nt'irotiationH  for  tliv  pur- 
ilniHc  of  any  part  of  tin-  "CaroK'na"?       A.— Y«'h,  "JI  Hhan-H. 

(2. — WiiH  there  any  other  iM-rmm  who  wan  also  huyint;  an 
intereHl   in  that  vessel?       A. — Yes. 

Q.— What   was  his  name?       A.— Henry  Matlhews«Mi. 

(i.— You  we-.-  to  hay  21   shares,  and  Maathewson  was  to 
buy  how  many'  A. — III'  was  to  buy  one  third,  whieh  amount 
ed  to  Jl  or  2'2  shares.  I  have  forpotten  whieli. 

ii. — And  wha(  was  to  Iteeome  of  the  other  onelliird?  A. — 
('a|)tain   rnpdi.irt  was  retaininp  it. 

ii. — The  arranp'nieiil  then  was  made  that  you  three  men 
were  to  berome  the  owners  of  the  ship?       A. — Yes. 

(i. — The  original  idea  was  tin  t  the  three  (»f  you  were  t«i 
own  tliat  ship?      A. — That  was  the  oriuinal  understanding. 

(^. — When  you  were  buyin<;  the  one-third  and  Mattliewson 
another  one-thi.d  from  Paptain  rnpihart,  was  (here  any 
valuatmn  jnit  on  the  vesm'l  at  that  time?       .\.— Yes,  about 

(i.— She  was  then  valu«d  at  fa.80(»?      A.— About  that,  but 
will  not  bi'  positive. 

)(r.  niekinson:- 


1 


-Is  that  valuation  in  writing? 

Mr.  IVters: — Tint  valuation  is  not  in  writing,  but  1  intend 
to  exjiiain  the  whole  transa<-*ion. 

IN'ters  e<»ntinued: 


K.xamination  liv  Mr. 


A.— Y'es,  nt 


<l. — Wer«'  you  to  pay  I'rquhart  at  that  rate? 
that  rate. 

ii. — The  v«'ssel  was  valued  at  |.'<,«((0.  und  you  were  buyi'iK 
one-third  of  her  at  that  rate?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Was  .Madhewson  buying  on  the  same  arrani,'entent7 
A. — Yes.  on  the  sam.'  rat«'. 

(j. — How-  did  \ou  pay  for  that  vessel  then,  did  you  pay  all 
Ihiit  anunint  of  money  in  cash?      A. — No,  I  did  not. 

(J. — Hid  you  pay  a  part  of  it  in  lash?  A. —  i  imid  part 
<-ash. 

Q. — And  the  "(St  W!is  jciid  how?  A. —  In  two  promiss«»ry 
not<'s. 

Q.— Have  you  thos(  pr<unissory  notes  in  your  possession 
now?      .\. — No.  I  have  nol. 

(i. — Did  you  keep  Ihem?      A. — No.  I  did  nol. 

(i.— Were  Iht-y  paid?       .\.— They  were  paid. 

Q. — Can  you  fioni  memory  state  the  amount  of  them'  \. 
— I  would  not  like  to  stale  positively,  it  is  so  lonp  a;ro.  I)^it 
it  was  about  |.")00  for  one,  and  sonu'wlwr*'  about  *1(M»  f'>r  tho 
other  one. 

Q. — Those  were  the  notes  you  i'ttvv  in  jtart  payment  for 
your  onethiid  share?       A — Yes 

Q. — In  addition  to  that  did  you  \m\  eash?      A. — Yes. 

Q.— What  amount  of  ciish?"     A  —Between  ?(!()(»  and  *7<>(t. 

Q. — Did  Mr.  .Mattliewson  make  a  similar  arrannemen*- 
with  regard  to  his  on<>-tliii-d  shan-?  A. — I  cannot  siwi-k  for 
Mattliewson. 

Q. — Now.  I  will  take  vou  down  to  the  exact  transaction. 
Did  you  get  a  bill  of  sale  at  the  time  you  bought  the  flrst  ono- 
third  of  the  vessel?       A. — Yes. 

Q. — Is  that  the  do<  iiment  which  1  now  show  you?  .A. — 
That  is  the  do.iiiuent. 

Q.— This  is  a  bill  of  sale  from  Donald  rrquhart  to  William 
Miinsie,  dated  the  LMst  of  .la. .nary.  ISS."),  of  21  shares  in  the 
Hchoimer  "t'arolena?       A. — Yes. 


8H 


lO 


^o 


30 


40 


60 


(}. — I  wIhIi  In  call  vonr  tittfiition,  piirticiilarl.v.  Mr.  Muu- 
mI)',  to  tli«>  |Nii't  of  tilth  dociitiicnt  tliiit  riti.VH,  "I,  Doualii  I'ltiii- 
hart,  imiMt«>r  inariiK'i-,  <  tt.,  in  foiiHt«l<'ratioii  of  tlit*  hiiiii  of 
f(i(>7.  mii<l  coiiHiilffation  bi'iii;;  tli«-  valiH'  of  th**  oiK'tliird  iii- 
t<>n>Ht,  traiiHforH  to  William  MiinHie,  <>lr." — hihI  liu-ii  follows 
till'  traiiMfcr  of  llii-  Hliari'M.  Ah  a  niattiT  of  fa«-t,  it  Ih  Htati'd 
llii'ii'  that  flMI7  was  Vw  conHifffration  for  that  traiiHfi'r.  IMd 
that  r<-|»n>fM>iit  th«>  wliolo  amount  a«-tnally  |Mii«l?  A. — No,  it 
(lid  not.  1  did  not  altacli  an,\  imjiortanco  tu  the  Hniutiut 
pliK'i'd  in  the  bill  of  Hale  tlit'ii. 

(j. — I  want  to  ^^^'^  to  tliiH  |H>int :  Are  ,voii  |M)Hitiv«>  that  in 
addition  to  that  |(Mi7,  which  yon  Ray  yon  |:ald  i-iihIi,  yon  |Niid 
an  additional  amount  on  tliow  notcH?      A. — Ych. 

{}. — And  that  !|itH>7  diM'n  not  fully  n'pri-m'nt  what  you  paid 
for  till'  oni'-thirJ  intci-st  in  the  BchooniT  "Carolina"?  A. — 
Not  at  all. 

Q. — Vou  havi-  jjivi'a  your  i-xplanation  that  yon  paid  very 
litth'  attention  to  the  amount  put  in  the  bill  of  wile?      A. — 

Vl'H. 

Q.— C'an  you  tell  me  who  drew  up  that  bill  of  sale?  A. — 
I  have  for<rotteii  now. 

Q.— You  didnt  draw  it?      A.— 1  did  not. 

Q. — .And  all  that  it*  stated  in  ihe  bill  of  Hah'  is  in  reality 
only  the  |Gfl7  that  was  paid  in  cash?  A.— Yes,  the  amount 
that  was  paid  in  cash. 

Mill  of  sale  fllid  «s  Kxhibit  5  O.  R.,  "Carolenn"  ease. 

The  CommisHi'Mier  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  Slates: — How 
many  shares  in  Ihe  wliole  ship? 

Witness: — There  were  (ii  shares  in  the  whole  ship. 

iRx.'uuination  by  Mr.  Peters  continued:) 

Q. — When  this  transaction  was  completed  you  and  Mr.  I'r- 
)|uliart  and  .Mr.  Matthewson  owned  that  ship  "Carolena"  be- 
tween you?      A. — We  did. 

(j. — Was  it  your  intention  to  work  the  ship  iM'twei'ii  you? 
A. — It   was. 

Q. — IHd  you  (liid  that  you  could  carry  that  intention  out, 
or  is  it  not  a  fact  that  a  diiTerence  arose  between  vou  and 
Mr.  rrquhart?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — And  what  was  thi'  result  of  that?  A. — I  purchased 
Taptain  rrqiihart's  interest  that  stood  in  his  name  in  the 
ship;  I  purchasid  his  one-third. 

(j. — Will  you  look  at  this  document  and  tell  me  whether 
that  is  the  bill  of  sale  of  thai  purchase?  A. — That  is  the 
bill  of  sale. 

Q. — This  is  a  bill  of  sale  'rom  Donald  rrquhart  to  William 
Munsie  of  21  shares  in  tin  schooner  'Tarolena,"  dated  the 
4th  of  February,  ISS,'.. 

Hill  of  sale  filed  as  Exhibit  6  O.  H.,  "Carolena  case. 

Q. — Tleferrinp  to  the  body  of  'his  bill  of  sale  I  find  that  Ihe 
consideration  is  also  stated  as  t(>(t7.  As  a  matter  of  fact, 
did  you,  oodid  you  not.  pay  more  than  8(0G7  to  Mr.  Urqiihart 
for  his  one-third  share?      A. — I  paid  him  11,250. 

Q. — You  swear  tluU  positively?       A. — Positively. 

Q. — Did  yon  pay  that  in  cash,  or  how?  A.— I  paid  that  In 
(ash  at  the  tinu. 

Q. — ft  apjtears  that  Mr.  Matthewson  also  bought  a  one- 
tliird  interest  in  this  sIiId  in  January,  as  alreadv  stated,  is 
this  the  bill  of  sale  for  that  transaction?  A.— This  is  a  bill 
of  sale  from  Donald  T^ninhart  to  ITenrv  Matthewson  of  22 
shares  in  the  'Carolena,"  lated  the  21st  of  January,  IRSR. 

Rill  of  sale  filed  as  Exhibit  No.  7  n.  R.,  "Carolena"  case. 

Q.— This  :ilso  states  that  the  consideration  was  1007,  but 


89 

.voii  liav«>  stiit<*il  thflt  yon  <lo  not  kiiuw  how  Mr.  Mattliowtton 
oiiTictI  out  liiH  irniiatu-tioa?  A. — I  do  not  know  iih  tu  tlio 
nii-tluHl  in  wliii-h  lie  paid  it,  but  tb«'  prit-c  wait  at  thi>  aanif 
iat«'. 

(|. — You  do  not  know  what  arran(fi>nicntH  In-  niad«'  utt  to 
tJK'  artual  8«'ttl«>nH>nt?  A. — I  du  not  know;  I  liavi'  forgot- 
ten. 

Q. — Tlic  result  of  tlu>w  two  trnnmirtionH  was  that  ,vou  and 
Mr.  MatthewHon  iMH'ainc  the  ownern  of  that  stiiooncr  in  F'cb- 
lo      ruar.v.  IKSri?      A. -Yob. 

Q. — Later  in  tlie  H.nne  year,  did  you  luive  another  trananr- 
tion  with  Mr.  MatthewHoii?  A. — .Miout  June  of  the  Haine 
year  I  lM)Uf;ht   MatthewHon'H  one-third  inter<'Ht. 

U. — Will  you  tell  we  what  Mr.  MatthewHon  wanted  to  do 
at  that  time,  or  where  lie  wanted  to  ro  to?  A. — If  I  renieni- 
h<*r,  he  wished  to  ko  (<>  the  niinea,  and  no  I  l)ou){ht  IiIh  one- 
third  Hhare  in  the  ''('iirolena." 

Q. — Is  this  the  hill  of  sale  you  got  from  him?      A. — That 
is  the  hill  of  sale  for  '22  shares. 
20         Q. — I  iH'lieve  the  tiuiount  stated  in  this  hill  of  sale  is  the 
same  as  in  the  other*'    A. — Yes.  it  is  about  the  same;  it  is 

rm. 

(Kill  of  sale  filed  as  Kxhibit  No.  H,  4i.  n..  "Caridena"  ens«>.) 

Q. — As  a  matter  of  fart,  do«»s  that  state  eorreetly  the  con- 
sideration paid  by  you  to  Matthewsim?      A. — No.' 

Q. — Did  you  pay  him  more  than  that?    A. — I   paid  him 
ft  .(100. 
,Q  Q. — He  was  then  gettint;  out  of  the  business  and  ko'hR 

^        mining?      A. — Yes. 

Q.— .\t  the  time  you  bought  the  seeond  one-third  from  Mr. 
I'niuhart.  in  February.  1SH.'»,  did  y«»u  raise  part  of  the  money 
by  mortKuge  on  the  vessels?      A.— I  did. 

(i.— How  mueh  eash  did  you  actually  raise  at  that  time? 
A.— I  eann«»t  be  positive,  but  it  was  about  fBtMl. 

<i-— Froni  whom  did  you  raise  it?      A.— Mr.  A.  .1.  Heehtel. 

y.— Did  you  pay  that  mortgaRe  olT.  or  was  it  satisfied?  A.— 

It  was  satisfied  in  June.  IRVi,  and  I  jjot  the  mortRaKe  back. 

40  Q.— Did  you  preserve  it?     .V.— I  am  not  able  to  put  my 

hands  on  it.  and  I  do  not  know  whether  it  is  in  existence  or 

not. 

Q- — Vou  cannot  find  it?      A. — I  cannot. 

Q.— What  I  want  to  Ret  at  is  this:  The  considerati«»n  in 
that  mortRajte  is  stated  at  |»it!7;  was  f«Mi7  tlu'  amount  vou 
actually  borrowwl.  or  was  it  more?  A.— I  borrowed  about 
f.'>(Ml. 

Q.— There  seems  to  Im-  the  same  amount  stat«Hl  in  all  the«4' 

documents.      For  some  reason  or  another  it  was  put  in  here 

50      at  ftifiT.  but  that  was  not  the  real  transaction?      A.— I  think 

the  amount   was  put  in  to  cover  interest.       I  would  not  be 

positivj'.  but  that  is  alutut  tlie  recollection  I  liave  of  it. 

(i.— Did  you  settle  that  moHRajje  up  in  the  followinR  June? 
••^•— ^^'"'1  '  h""Rht  Matthewsim  out  in  June  I  borrowed 
souM'  more  mom'y,  cancelled  that  mortKaRe  and  Rave  <.ne  f«>r 
fl.tlOO.       I  borrowed  that  from  .Mr.  Htn-htel. 

Q.— Is  that  the  second  mortRaRe  vou  Rave  to  the  same 
man?      A.— That  is  the  secimd  nmrtgaRe. 

l»th  of  J  line,  IHH5,  for  f  1, 0(10. 
(Filed  as  Exhibit  No.  ».  U.  II.  "Carolena"  case.) 

th2Tl^OOo/*"\""' w"*  ''"•'  "^M  *1";  •"*"/  "'•"•tgaRe  settled  by 
tins  fl.OOO?      A.— It  was  settled  by  the  new  mortgaRe. 

(i.— Did  you  pay  the  interest  that  was  due  on  the  first 
niortRage  up  to  that  time?      A.-l  presume  so. 

doui7of'iT  ^"""  ""^'  *'"*'*  "**""*  '••       ^^-No-  I  I'i've  no 


OO 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


Q.--Aftcr  till-  Hi'i'Diiil  iiniilpiKc  wiih  ((ivcii,  «li<l  >i>ii  |hi.v  iil- 
li-rcHl  on  ll?      A. — V»'H. 

Q.-  Ilnvf  .voii  lu-n-  iIk'  nn'i|itN  ftir  ilic  |iii,viii)-iil  of  ili»'  In- 
t)>ri*Hi  on  I  lie  inoii):ati.'?  A. —  Vi-it.  I  |)'iitl  the  iuu-ivitl  M<-iiii 
annu)ill,v  at  llic  rate  of  on«>  iht  *-<>nl.  |mt  month,  um  hIiowm 
l>y  Ihf  nM'ciptH  h«*ri>. 

H. — WaN  that  Uw  »h\uiI  ainonut  ihat-K'Ml  at  that  linii>  on 
loanH  of  that  ili  Hrri|iiion?  A.— Vim.  that  \\u»  a  fuii'  rate  of 
intriTHt  in  IhoHc  <la>'H. 

if. —  How  tliti  ,vou  pa.v  Ihf  inlcri-Mt  on  that?.  A. — Ah  I  hi*- 
Itv  th<>  nM-«-i|itH  hci'f.  thn-f  an*  ten  for  h\\  nioiiihM'  intt-roKt 
anil  one  for  four  niontliH.  ho  that  I  would  hav«>  paitl  the  in 
tt-rcHt  for  tlvc  .vcarH  auti  a  lilt  It-  ovt-r. 

(i. — An*  tlit'Hc  the  orit;iii)il  r«'iti|»!  4?  A. —  I  lliiuk  then'  ari> 
on*'  or  two  that  art-  not  ori}j;inal:  I  think  tlH-rt-  wt-rt-  on*-  *)r 
two.  *tr  |M-rhapH  llir*'c.  niiHJaid.  and  wlit'ii  I  wan  Kath<-rin|{  n|i 
niv  papfrH  I  ank*-*!  Mr.  It*>*'hlcl  to  kIvc  nic  a  copv  of  th«'  n> 

*-*>i)ltH. 

(}. — Ar*'  y*iu  pr*-pari'd  to  Bwt-ar  poMitiv*'ly  that  ,vou  actually- 
paid  th*'ni?  A. —  I'oHitivfly. 

ii. — l»i*l  y*ni  finally  pay  th*-  priniipal  *»IT?      A. — Yt-B. 

ij. — An*l  that  niortf^ay;*-  was  *liHiliarp'*l?  I  h*-*-  IImm*' 
Ih  a  r*-);ular  *liH<harp-  on  th*'  lin<k  of  it,  *lal«'il  tht>  Sih  of  No 
vt'UilM'r,  1S!M»,  -.nd  Hij,'n*"d  l»y  .Mr.  M«-ililfl?  A.— Vi-h.  that  in 
*'«»rr<'ct 

iy — And  that  waH  duly  r*'*'*»rd('d?      A. — Y*'«. 

(Th*'  *'h'v*  n  r«'<'*'ipts  aliov*'  rcft-rr*'*!  t*>,  tiled  t<»t,'t'tht'r  an  E.\ 
hiltit  X*>.  !»,  (S.  1».  "farolena"  niKf.) 

Q. — N*iw.  y*>u  hav*'  j;ivi'n  mh  a  Hlatt'nii-nt  ai*  to  how  y*)U  bo- 
cam*'  th*'  own*'r  of  the  "Caiolena?"      A. — Yes. 

ii. — Yon  hav*'  Htatc*!  that  you  jjave  th<'»*'  noten  t*»  Mr.  I'r 
*|uhart  and  pai*i  them.  Am  a  matter  *)f  fatt.  Ih  Mr.  I'niuliart 
•lead?      A. — Y*'S. 

Q. — \Yliat  was  his  onupation?  A.— II*'  was  a  mnBtor 
inarin*'r,  and  I  Iteliev*-  lu'  acted  aH  ]iil*)t. 

Q. — \Yliere  is  Mr.  Matthewson?       .\. —  I  d<»  not  kn*>w. 

ii. — llav*'  y*»ii  th*'  U-ast  i*l*'a  *»f  whi're  he  is  to  !>*•  found? 
A. — Not  th*'  r*'niot*'Ht  id*'a;  to  th*'  b*'st  of  my  knowledge  he 
is  not  in  the  country. 

Q. — >Yh*'n  did  he  h-ave  the  country?  A. — In  the  Hummer 
of  1885. 

(i. — And  hav*'  you  8*'en  him  sin*'*-?  A. — I  have  not  Hit-n 
liini  since. 

(i. — Nor  do  yon  know  anylhint;  ab*)ul  liini?  A. — No. 

(j. — In  the  y*'ar  18Sr>  di*l  you  ^o  int*>  the  s*'alin};  busineso 
in  lt*'hrinK  Wi-a?      A.— No.  ' 

{}. — F'or  what  purpos*'  *lid  you  us*'  the  "rarolena"  that 
y<iir?  A. — For  tradiut;  on  the  west  *'*mst  of  Yan*rouver  Isl 
and. 

Q. — In  that  trailing  «li*l  y*)u  d*'al  in  »*'al8?  A. — Yes;  I  fiot 
th*>  H*'nls  fr*>m  the  Indians. 

li. — \Y*'r*'  you  *-at*hin};  seals  that  y*'ar  *)n  th*'  coast?  A. — 
I  am  n*»t  positiv*'  whether  the  ''('aroleiin"  w*'nt  *)iit  that  y«»ar 
from  th*'  sh*>re  or  not.      I  liav*>  fort^ott*'n. 

(j. — lint  til*'  main  ]iorti*in  of  your  l)usin*'ss  in  1885  was 
trading;  witli  th*'  Indians  ami  buying;  skins  fr*im  them?  A. — 
Y*-s.  I  think  the  "('ar*il*'na"  may  have  made  on*'  or  two 
tri]is  out.  but  it  is  so  hint;  api  I  cannot  rem*'nib*'r. 

(j. — In  th*'  spring  of  188r>.  lH'f*)re  you  b*iu(;ht  Matth*'ws*in'*i 
shar*'.  was  th*'  "t'amh'na"  on  this  Irailiiif;  v*)ya}{*'?  A. — Yes 
in  th*'  s|)rin}r.  Sli*'  lia*l  ^on*'  out  and  come  Itack  aKuin,  and 
it  was  wlu'U  she  cam*'  ba*'k  that  1  made  a  trade  with  him 
f*>r  his  shar*'.  h*'  tlwn  beinu  an.\ious  to  ^o  mining;. 

Q. — N*>w,  fr*»m  188"),  wh*'n  you  p;ot  .Matthewson's  share, 
up  t*>  188ti.  wIh'u  th*'  "Caroh'iia"  was  seized,  was  tlier*'  any 
oth*'r  p*'rs*>n  who  ha*]  any  interest  in  that  vessel  exct'pt  your- 
self?      A. — N*tii*'  otiu'r  than  the  mortnatjee. 

(2. — Y*Mi  are  p*)siliv*'  about  that?  A. — l'*>»itive. 


9t 


Q.  -AikI  IIi«<  iiini'(Ka(t<-<'  yi»  \ii\\f  H|i(>k<>ii  nt  wiim  Mr.  Ilrch- 
li-l.  who  ImkI  lliitl  DIM-  IIioiiniiihI  ilolliir  iiiorl^'iip-'.'       A.    -Vi'm. 

< j. '   Whii'li  iiKirl^ii^c  uiii  aflrrwiii'tlM  |iiii<l  olT?       .\.   -Ych. 

H.  IIimI  llif  iiMii-|){ti^*')-  iiiiv  liilfi'fHl  with  ihf  ••M-r|iii<iii  of 
thi-  hiiiii  hf  had  iiiiiili-?     A.     Nom-  whatever. 

(^ — III-  hail  no  iiilcifHl  in  Ihf  Miva^iH  Mhc  wati  uuikint;'.' 
A,— None. 

1^.— Nof  in  Ui'V  rarjfo'.'     A.  -No. 

(^— Had  III-  anv  iiili-ii-Hi   in  hi-r  oiillit?       A.  -Xoih>  wtnu- 
lo      cvi-r. 

(^  -  N't-itlii-i'  ilin-rl  nor  iiiijln-cl?  A. — Slu-  waR  almoliiti-ly 
niv  own  |iro|M-rl\. 

(^  — Voii  oiillitlnl  lliat  vi-Hst-l  In  Ixsti.  ami  iht-  IIi-hI  i|IIi-h- 
lion  I  want  to  ank  von  Ih  who  titit-il  h<-r  mit  for  Nfalln^  In 
ISMti;  dill  von  do  it  voniHi-lf?      A.-   V(-h. 

(j. —  IHiJ  voii  at  thai  lino-  kti-p  a  ri'unlar  m-t  of  lumkK?  A  — 
I  did  not. 

l^. —  hid  voii  kt'f|(  anv  liookn  whati-vcr?      A. — Xom-  ♦^xi-i-pt 
a  Hiiiivll  inrinorandnin  hook. 
20  (^,_  .\h  III  the  Hii|)|ili<>N  th..!  VOII  jjol  to  piit  in  llic  Hrliooiin- 

'•('ai-oh'iia."  did  von  pay  for  thini  in  laHJi,  or  how?  A.-  .\h 
.1  riih-  I  paid  in  i-iinIi  for  i-vi-rythiii);  jiixt  at  lli<-  tiiiu-.  or  afirr 
till-  v<  HNi-l  Mould  h-iivi-. 

<i. —  iliivi-  von  Im-i-ii  ahh-  to  llnd  lln-  iK-fiial  vouclu-rH  for  lii" 
i-xpi-nditiii-iN  von  inriirn-d  in   isst!  in  mittlttin^r  the  ffdiooin'r 


^o 


40 


60 


't'aroji  na*. 


A.— I  havi- 


ii. — I  wixh  yon  to  look  at   voncln-r  iiiiiiiIht  1  and  Htali-  if 
that   Ih  an  ori^iinal   voiiih*-r?     .\, — That   in  an  original    von 


nil-. 


he 

Q.— What  is  it  for?  .\. —  It  In  a  tiiiHmitirH  hill  for  part  of 
till-  outfit  for  tin-  MihooiM-r  "<  aioh-na";  it  \h  a  voiirhcr  from 
S.  L.  Ki-lly. 

Q.— Was  that  paid  l»y  yon?  A.— Ycm,  that  was  paid  1»y 
II'. 

il — What  is  till-  amount  of  that  voarhi-r?  .\. — ThiTi-  is 
oni'  voni-lii-r  for  ifl  l.lill  and  oni-  for  #".IH»,  ainonntinK  to 
f'2\.m  in  all. 

(i.— Is  that  for  thi.>  vissi-l?  A.— Yi-s.  it  is  for  Hn-  "Car- 
oli-na." 

ii- — Now  look  at  voiK-licr  niinilu-r  1',  and  ti-ll  iib  if  that  is 


an  ori^iiial  voiirln-r' 


IIS.  that  is  an  oii^jinal  voii(-h<-r. 


Q.— What  is  it  for?  A.-  It  is  an  iti-in  of  ifLMMl  for  hauling' 
liinihi-r  and  piittiii};  sliitf  on  hoard  tin-  vi-ssi-l. 

<i. — Was  that   paid  liy  yon?     A.— Yes, 

0- — Now  look  at  voiiihi>r  iinnilii-r  :{  and  stiit*-  if  that  is  an 
ori(;inal  vomhi-r?    A.— This  is  not  an  original  voihIum-;  it  is 

a  dn]dirati-.     I  saw  in  my  little  noti- 1 k  that  I  had  paid  it 

to  Win.  1".  Saywaid  for  liimlx  r  on  arcount  of  tin-  si  hooii<r 
50  "("aroli-na"  and  I  wi-nt  and  I  jrot  a  diipliiaii-  vom-hi-r  fm-  It. 
It  amounts  to  |41.ri2  and  was  paid  to  Win.  I'.  Saywai-d  for 
liiinh*>r  for  tin-  srhoom-r  "Caioicna." 


Q. — If  was  paid  by  yi 


III. 


A.— Y 


Q.— An-  yon   pri-paii-d  to  say  that  yon   paid  that   amount 


for  Inmlu-r  for  tin-  sihooin-r  "fand 


<i. 


i-na 


-Say  what  that  liimhir  was  ri-i|iiir<>d  fo 


-Y.-s.  I  did 


-It    WMS 


iisi'd  for  makin^r  partitions  in  the  hold.  i-nlai-KinK  the  for 
jasth'  for  tin-  im-n.  making  hunks  for  tin-  Indians,  and  mak 
in^  salt  Mas  and  ji'-ovision  liins  in  tli*>  vi-ssi-l. 

Q.— Ili-rcafti-r  \oii  havi-    1  stati-im-nt   pnttinfj  in  tlio  valac 
of  yonr  ship.       Is  that  it»-m  imlndi-d  in  tin-  valni.     of     the 


vi'ssi'l     as     ilajini'd      hv     von?      .\.— \i 


That  is  for  thiiv's  ni-icssarv  for  tin-  vov 


sir. 


it     is     not. 


in<-liidi'd  in  the  i-laini  1  iiiak  •  for  the  viil 


apt'  and  tin-y  an-  not 


in-  of  the  vi-ssol. 


Q. — Now  tlicsi-  voiiilici-s  whith  wi-  arc  now  puif 


pnttinu  in  ai-o 


for  pnymi'iits  madi-  hy  yoii.  and  aro  in  addition  to  tlii'  valin- 
of  the  V(-s8»-l?  A.— Yes.  sir.  they  arc  in  addition  to  tht 
value  «if  the  vessel. 

0.— Look    at   voiiihcr  niimher  4    and   slate  if  thai    is  an 
original  vomher?     A.— Yes.  this  is  an  original  vmieher.     It 


02 


to 


20 


30 


4< 


50 


60 


it)  II  HMflpt  fniiii  K.  (J    Prior,  diiti'tl  Fibnnuv  I'ltli,  IMStl,  niid 
iM  for  fl^.lU. 

H. — \\iiH  thiit  f«tr  liurdwtirt'  fur  llu-  \vh>»'\  "CuroWMiu'* .' 
A.— Vfu. 

<i. — Anil  Unit  iiiiioiint  wiih  paid  by  ,vou?    A. — Y«>h. 

<j. — hiK>k  lit  voiii-hi'r  iiuiiilN'r  !i  and  Htati*  what  it  iH?  A. — 
ThiH  iH  an  oriKina!  voiirhiT  and  iH  for  f:(.5<)  for  dra,vagf,  for 
nirr.vinK  HtutT  on  iMiiird  tlii>  "t'aroliMia." 

Q. — That  waH  paid  h^'  ;on?    A. — Vi-h. 

(i. — lxNii<  at  vinirlit-r  niinilM>r  It,  and  ti*ll  iih  wliat  it  Ih? 
A. — Voui-li4*r  niinilHM'  <(  in  a  i-cn-ipt  from  K.  It.  Marvin,  Kbip 
<'liandli>r;  it  in  an  original  \oiirlii-r  and  it  in  for  tin*  nuni  of 
fS:t.07  and  9:<7.(ll,  in  all  |ILMM)S,  for  niipplii'H  for  tlu'  "Car- 
tdi-na." 

W-— K.v  wliow  ordi'i-H  wi-ri-  tlicHc  tliinttH  put  on  bonrd  tlie 
Hhip.     A. — Til**  ('aptaiii  I  l)i>lii-vi-  ord«>ri>d  tlioHi*. 

ii.--AH  a  niatli-r  of  fart,  did  ,voii  ,vourM'lf  pay  for  tlioni? 
A. — Yi'H,  Kir.  I  jHiid  for  tlii'iii  |N-rMonall\. 

Q.— IW'fori'  .vou  paid  for  llii'in  did  .voii  HatiHfv  youraelf 
that  tho.v  wi'fi'  on  iMiiird  ilio  Hlii|i?  A. — Yi>h,  tlu>  captain 
iiHually  kiM'pH  a  litlli-  rh«'(kboolv  with  ri'pard  to  tliow 
thin^H,  hi'  I'ithi'r  i-nti-rn  tlinn  in  IiIh  rhi*rkbook.  or  niarkH 
thi'  bill  "O.K." 

Q. — K.  n.  Marvjp  is  doin>»  buHini>HH  hoiv  now?    A. — Yi'ti. 

Q. — And  ho  in  obtainablo  an  a  witnoHH?    ,\. — Yi'h. 

Q. — Look  at  voiirhor  niinibi<r  7  and  ti-ll  iih  if  it  Ih  an  origi- 
nal  ii'i-i'lpt?    A. — Yi'H,  it   in  an  original   ri'ri'ipt. 

Q. — What  in  that  ri-ii'ipt  for  A. — It  in  for  tin*  anioniit  of 
t5.(Ml  paid  to  Mr.  lii'iicli  for  rating  the  rlirononi«>ti*r. 

Q. — And  .vou  paid  that  .vonrHolf  for  tbo  vi'hhi'1  "t'aroli'na"? 
A. — Yi'H,  I  wo  it  horo  Htati-d  tliat  tho  iinnibor  of  the  I'hroiio- 
mi'ti'r  waH  W»7. 

Q. — Look  at  voui'bor  nuiiibor  H  and  ntato  what  i(  iH  for? 
A. — It  iH  n  Hmall  bill  anionntinK  to  fl.'jr)  for  a  lantern  ami 
wirkB  for  tho  nhip  "t'arolona." 

(J.— You  paid  that  bill  .vourwlf  for  tbi-  Hhip?    A.— Yob. 

Q. — In  faot,  all  thoBo  Miipplios  won*  for  tlio  nhip  "Caro- 
lonn.".    A. — Yc'H. 

Q. — Look  at  voiirhor  nunilH>r  0  and  toll  uh  what  it  Ih?  A. 
— It  Ib  a  roooipt  from  John  Uobortnon,  MlaokHinith,  for  154.00 
for  HupplioH  for  the  sohoonor  'Carolena." 

Q. — Ib  that  an  oriuinal  voucht'r?  A. — It  in  an  original 
roi'oipt. 

Q. — Ib  thorc  nn.rthini;  in  that  bill  ini-ludod  in  your  valuo 
of  tho  Hhip  which  you  will  horoaftor  tllo  in  tho  caso?  A. — 
No,  tlioBo  aro  nocossary  oxponHos  which  wo  aro  obliKiMl  to  go 
throu);h  yoar  aftor  your. 

Q. — And  thov  wow  nil  for  thin  vovapo  of  tho  "Carolona"? 
A.— YoB. 

Q. — Look  at  vouchor  numbor  10  and  toll  us  what  that  is? 
A. — This  Ib  an  original  vouchor  from  Charios  Pardoo  for 
14.40.  paid  for  gun  wadH  for  tho  achoonor  "Oarolona." 

Ci.— What  iH  tho  dato  of  that?    A.— May,  18SG. 

Q. — .\nd  all  thoBo  vohcIioh  aro  for  tho  boginning  of  tho 
year  of  1880?    A.— Yob. 

Q. — TiOok  at  vouchor  numbor  It,  and  Htato  what  that  Ih? 
A. — That  Ib  an  amount  of  |i2.t..'tri  for  what  appoars  to  havo 
boon  Imught  from  tho  pilot  of  tho  Bchoonor  "Mary  Taylor." 

Q. — How  do  you  know  it  waB  bought,  did  you  pay  for  it? 
A — Yob.  I  paid  for  it  to  Oaptain  McAlliBtor. 

Q. — Who  waB  Captain  Mc.\lliHt«»r?  A. — IIo  was  one  of 
tho  ownors  I  boliovo  of  tho  "Mary  Taylor"  at  that  timo. 

Q. — Did  an  ordor  accompany  that  account  for  you  to  pay 
it?  A. — Thoro  was  I  boliovo  an  ordor  accompanying  it  to 
pay  tho  amount. 

Q. — ThiB  Ib  BuppoBod  to  bo  for  somo  things  that  woro  aup- 
Itliod  to  tho  "Parolona"  from  tho  Bi'hoonor  "Mary  Taylor"  and 
you  got  tho  bill,  and  yo-  paid  it?    A. — Yes. 


91 


10 


iO 


30 


40 


50 


03 


(i.— Ami  iiM  fur  iiH  .voii  know,  tin-  iIiIiikh  wiir  »»ii  tht-  uliip? 
A.— V«'H. 

The  ('oiiiiiiiHHioncr  on  tli«'  part  of  tin-  I'liHi'd  WIhI«'m:— Mr. 
ri'tcrH.  un*  .VOII  >{oiii;(  Jo  prove  llirw  tliintTH  w«'r«'  on  board 
III*'  Hhip  iM'fitrc  it  iM  i-oiitcHtcd  on  the  otiit'r  Mitlr?  llf  courso 
iiiaMtiM-H  of  vchhi-Ih  iIo  not  alwa.VH  liavc  {NM-Honal  kuowliMlKu 
i>f  what  iUH'H  on  lioanl  tlu*  vchmI. 

Mr.  I'l'tfi-H:— i  will  go  tliroiiKli  tlioHc  v<mfliiTM  your  honour 
un  ipili-kl.v  aH  1  can. 

Tlic  ('oiiiinlNHiont'r  on  tlit-  part  of  tlu*  riiitcd  Ktal«-H: — I 
Im'IIcvi'  voii  arc  ^oIiik  tlir«MiKli  tli<-ni  iih  riipidl.v  hh  |H)Htiil)l«', 
but  I  thought  voii  nilKlit  Have  tiint>  by  avoiding  HUpiioitltionii 
until  wi'  liavf  lit>ai'd  from  tlio  otlit>r  iiido. 

Mr.  IN'tcrM: — \'«'rv  well  .voiir  Ilunour.  j 

iKxaniination  hy  Mr.  IN'tfi-H  lontlunfd.) 

i}. — Mr.  Munxit',  will  yuii  pltMiHc  look  at  voufli«'r  nunilH>r 
IL',  and  Hiatf  what  lliai  voiiclicr  iH?  A. — That  in  uu  original 
voucli«-r  for  tiic  Huni  of  |:t4.<>4.  paid  tu  l)i*an  H.  Hi>urH  for  ru- 
pairs  to  wiilH  of  IIk*  hi  lioout-r  "('arolcna." 

y. —  Vou  paid  (liat  imxn'iil?      A. — Yt'S.  sir. 

(i.— l.«»ok  at  \ourlifr  li  i.iilMT  V.i,  and  pk'use  state  what 
that  iti?  A. — That  !■>  a  muui  of  flH.75  paid  to  John  Weilor 
for  riirniturt*  for  the  Hiliooner  "Caroleua";  it  in  an  oi-igiuul 
voucher. 

Q. — Did  you  pa«-  lat?  A. — Yes.  Thia  apiM'urH  (o  Iw 
charired  to  Cariii'  <>.  .Munnie  but  there  is  an  entry  at  the  Hide 
"for  Hclioouer  '(  aroh'na.'  " 

y — A»  a  matter  of  fint.  ilnse  Koodn  were  for  the  Bchooner 
"t'anilena"?  A. — Yi-.i.  I  might  8tate  that  in  tliow  days  I 
was  in  the  provision  iMisiness  and  sometimes  goods  were 
char^'ed  to  Carue  &  .Miiusi< ,  witli  which,  as  a  firm,  we  hud 
nothing  to  do  TheHe  goods  were  chargeable  to  the  schoon- 
er "Carolena,"  and  were  paid  on  that  accotmt.  I  was  in 
partnership  witli  Mr.  ("arne  at  the  time 

Q. — Please  look  at  voucher  nunib<>r  14  and  state  what  It 
is?  .\. — This  is  a  receipt  from  Peter  Mctjuade  &  Son,  ship 
chnndiers.  for  #!M.()n.  It  is  an  oriirinal  v<Mi«-lier  for  g<H>ds 
Hiip))lied  to  the  "Carolena."       1  paid  that  mys«-lf. 

Q. — Look  at  voucher  numlN'r  lo  and  state  what  that  vouch- 
er is?  A.— This  is  a  voii'-her  for  |171..*12,  paid  to  VV.  .1.  JefT- 
MH*  for  goods  HuppHed  to  the  schooner  "Carolena"  as  i»er  bills 
rendered.  It  '.s  an  original  voiich<>r,  as  I  have  stated,  and 
the  goods  were  for  the  "t'arolena."  It  is  addn^ssed  t«> 
'f'arne  &  Munsie,"  lait  is  marked  on  account  "for  the 
schooner  'Carolena.' " 

Q. — Now  with  regard  to  that  voucher  I  want  to  ask  you, 
what  is  the  stiili"  charged  in  that  voucher  for?  A. — It  was 
for  supplier  in  (lie  shape  of  clothing  that  were  put  on  board 
the  "Carolena"  lor  the  convenience  of  the  men  during  the 
voyage. 

Q. — Is  that  what  you  call  a  "slop-chest"?  A. — Yes,  that 
is  what  the  sailors  call  a  '•slop-chest." 

Q. — That  means  that  you  have  certain  poods  on  board 
which  are  sold  from  time  to  time  to  the  men?  A. — Yes, 
when  fitting  our  for  sealing  we  always  put  a  certain  amount 
of  goods  on  board  for  th"  men,  such  as  oilcloths,  sou-west- 
ers. gun>-boots,  overalls  and  things  of  that  description. 

Q. — Is  'hat  the  usual  custom?  A. — Yes,  the  usual  cus- 
tom.     In  fact,  it  is  always  done. 

Q. — And  this  biJI  row  before  us  was  for  stuff  in  th?  sloft- 
chesf  .\. — Yes,  the  bill  was  charged  to  Came  &  Munsie, 
and  11  note  was  added  that  it  was  for  the  schooner  "Cnro- 
lenn"  and  the  goods  were  put  on  the  schooner. 

Q.— .\nd  the  bills  were  paid  by  you?  A.— All  those  bills 
were  paid  by  me. 


lO 


20 


.^^ 


40 


so 


94 

(2.— Look  ill  \oinli>'i-  iiiiiiiI.it  Iti  iiiid  sliitc  what  tliiit 
Miinliir  JN  lor?  A.  -This  is  a  bill  Iroiii  CMi  Iliiiji  &  Mm.  foi- 
isliiir  of  llu-  sain.'  class;  it  aiiioiiiitH  to  f  1(1.2.')  and  was  ])aid  l.v 
inc. 

il—U  dial  an  ori;>inal  Itill?  A.— Thai  is  not  an  oiiuinal 
liili 

(2.— Itiit  von  have  an  oiiy;iiial  hill?  A.— I  had  an  oridnal 
liili  hilt  it  was  so  hadiv  linn  up  that  I  asked  liini  to  make 
<Mit  a  new  hill  lati-r. 

ti. — (Ml  Hin>!:  is  in  Inisiinss  hcif  todav  and  can  hi-  pro 
diict'd  as  a  witness  if  luccssaiv?       A. — Vcs. 

(i. — Look  at  voucher  ninnhcr  17  and  state  what  that  is? 
A. — That  is  a  hill  from  Tlioinas  (loweii,  iron  fonnth'r,  fin' 
$it.1tl  for  work  done  on  tiie  "<'ai-oleiia";  it  is  an  orit;inal  hill 
and  I  |iaid  it. 

II. — Look  at  voucher  imiiiher  IS  and  state  what  it  is?  A. — 
It  is  a  hill  fi'oiii  T.  N.  ilihheii  A;  roiiipanv  for  charts  and  sta- 
tionarv,  etc.,  for  the  schooner  "raroleiia";  it  anioiints  to 
f-d.^'t  and  was  paid  l>v  inc. 

Q.— Is  it  an  oriiiinal  hil''  A. — It  is  not  (he  oi*i(>;inal.  The 
ori<;inal  hill  ^01  inislnid  with  some  others  and  I  went  after- 
wards and  had  a  duplicate  niade  out. 

(I. — Are  Hihheii  &  < "o.  in  hnsiiiess  here  today,  and  can 
tliey  he  ]ii'odiiced?       A. — Yes. 

ti. — You  paid  liie  nioiiev  yourself?     A.— I  paid  it  m'si-lf. 

(j. — Look  at  Mi'.icher  niimher  1!)  and  state  what  Ihal 
voucher  is  for?  A. --That  is  a  hill  from  Thomas  Turtle,  it  is 
tor  a  chronometer  hoiij;lit  from  the  shij»  "IlarvesI  Home." 
and  is  valued    it  |l(i(). 

(2.— IMd  yon  pay  thai?       A.-- Yes. 

ii. — Was  thai  chronomter  on  hoard  the  ''raroleiia"  wlien 
she  sailed?  .\  -It  was  on  hoard  her  when  she  left  Vic 
(oria.  The  niitnher  of  the  chronometer  was  8(17,  as  appears 
hy  (lie  hill,  voucher  iiiimher  10. 

Mr.  I'eters: — I  mijilit  slate  to  the  < 'oinmissioners  that  in 
mentioning  this  clironomeler  I  should  like  a  note  taken  of 
the  fact  that  in  a  cop,\  of  the  partial  iiiveiitin-y  of  the  ;;oods 
on  hoard  the  "•  "aroleiia"  when  she  was  seized,  which  copy 
was  tfiven  nie  hy  my  learned  friend  Mr.  IHckinsoii,  !  lind  on*? 
"chronometer  niiniher  S07.'  This  is  therefore,  the  same 
chronometer  as  appears  ini  this  hill. 

(K.xamination  hy  Mr.   reters  continued.) 

ti.— Look  at  voiicii'-r  niimher  I'd  and  state  what  it  is?  A. 
— This  is  a  voucher  for  $-17.12  for  fuel,  wharfafje,  etc.,  for  the 
ship  "Caroleiia";  it  was  jiaid  hy  myself  (o  Henry  Xohle. 

().  — Look  at  voucher  21  and  (ell  us  wlial  (ha(  is?  .\.— Tt 
is  an  original  hill  jiaid  (o  Mr.  (ieorp'  Phillips  for  casiiii^rs 
and  re|iairs  (o  stovi's  etc.,  for  (lii-  ship  "t'arolena,"  it 
amounts  (o  !$:t!).2.'i  and  was  naid  hv  nie. 


rx3 


•  ■•■"     .11m     i-<i«<ii        niiti)      iii«ii      ir*.4^> 

—This  is  a   v her  for  #7..'">(t  paid  to  Donald  T'ripihart   for 

surveying  (he  ship  "Cai-olena." 

Q. — That  was  paid  hy  yon?     A.— Yes. 

Q.— Look  a(  voucher  2::  and  state  what  it  is?  A.— This 
is  n  voucher,  a  receipt  from  "Indian  .limmy"  for  f2-\H  tor  l 
canoes,  (i  )iaddles  and  seal  hiadders. 

Q.— These  ymi  honjilif  for  the  sihooiier  "rarolena"?       A. 

Yes. 

Q.-Thal    purports   to  he  a   receipt    „ifr„ed  hv   "Indian   Jiin- 
tny?"     .\. — Yes. 


95 


A. 


•ICilfttT 

ill  lilt' 
oiitflt; 


10 


20 


30 


40 


50 


63 


i 


(^._\Vilii,.Ns«(l   l),v   wlidiii?     A.— Wiliu'MW'il   b.v  <iiu'  of   llic 
iiicii  on  boiiid  tlic  vcssi  I. 
(2 —  Did  voii  pii.v  llial   nioiH  V  to     liiiliiiii     .liiiuiiy?     A. — I 

|i;|H|    it    ill    ill*'   IMt'SClMC  of   lIlC   |M'lSOIl    rffciTtMl    {o. 

iy  —  l  wsiiii  llu'  ili'iii  i-x|iliiiii<M|  Were  Un-sf  ciiiiofH  ac- 
Mi.illv  on  lioiiid  llio  •riiroliiin"  win  n  sin-  was  Ki-i/.t-d?  A.— 
I  pivsmnc  so  I  I'oiiyiit  lliiin  for  111.-  •Caiolona"  and  thr.v 
were  on  lioanl  In-iv     No  ilonlil  iln-v  ari'  »ln'  saiiic  rano«'H. 

(^. — You  intfinlKl  (o  send  lior  out  in  ISSd  to  tUli  for 
seals?     A.  — ^'I'S. 

Tlu'  <'oniniiKsioii<'r  on  tlif  |iait  of  Hor  MajcHtv: — Is  that 
tin-  usual  |>ri<<'  for  four  caniM's? 

Mr.  Pctt-rs: — I  nil!  cxiilaiii  that  in  a  nionii-nt.  Thoso 
ranocH  art'  fiill\  worth  tlif  iiiiioiint  statt'tl  tlitTf.  I  am  not 
t|uiti'  sure  that  wt-  will  he  ahlf  to  nivi-  fvith'iifr  in  any  titlu'f 
t-asf  as  to  tla-ir  imrt'liasc.  hut  in  this  t-asf  tlio  t-tintics  wt'i-i; 
bou;;lit  out  and  out. 

iH.xainination  hy  Mr.  ri-ti-rs  contiiiuttl.) 

(i.— In  issii  you  iiiatlc  up  your  iniiitl  to  stud  tht'  "Car- 
olfiia"  scaling*'  If  you  \vci-<'  lishin^  with  whitt'  iiit'n  and 
tlii'ir  htiats.  htiw  many  iiifii  docs  it  takt-  tti  t-at-li  boat?  A. — 
Tlirt'f.  nanifly,  a  hunter,  anti  a  ]iullt'r.  ami  a  huat  steerer. 

Q. —  If  ytiii  tisli  frtHii  eaiioes,  how  many  men  tio  ytiii  have  in 
eatli  taiioe     A. — We  have  two,  a  hunter  ami  a  puller. 

Q. — Now  then,  ill  Is^ti.  ditl  you  lirst  intend  to  take  Indian 
hunters?      A. —  Yes,  I  tliil. 

(i. — I  Mil  ytiii  semi  your  vessel  down  the  eoast  tt»  gt^t  In- 
dian  hunters?     A.— ^es. 

(/. — Were  yon  able  to  jret  them?  .\. — The  Indians  were  a 
little  limitl  ahoiit  -{oiii!^  seallii;:  so  far  from  lionie.  Of  eourse 
I  was  not  dtiwn  tliere.  Imt  I  think  the  ia|itaiii  told  ine  that 
they  tirst  a;;reetl  tt>  j;o.  ami  after  i-oiisultatit>ii  they  tleeidetl 
nt>t  to  (It).  Many  of  these  thought  it  was  too  far 
friuii  home  ami  they  refiisetl  to  ^o.  aiitl  I  had  instriietetl  the 
laptain  before  he  left  that  if  he  could  not  secure  IntliaiiH  he 
shoultl  buy  4  or  .*  ifttod  canoes,  ami  shoultl  tit  the  "4'art>lena'' 
out  with  wiiite  hunters,  putting  two  men  in  each  cantH'. 
She  was  not  one  of  tlie  larfrest  sealing  vi-ssels  aiitl  her  ac- 
comniotlatitiii  was  mil  very  •;o<>il.  and  so  by  putting;  two  men 
in  a  canoe  insieat]  of  three  in  a  boat  it  savetl  the  s[iace  of 
4  or  o  men 

ii. — You  therefore  hail  a  special  reason  for  tryiiitr  to  fiet 
canoes?     A. — Yes. 

Q. — You  wantctl  to  <iet  Intlians  llrst.  but  as  you  could  not 
iii't  them  you  tletermincil  you  witiiltl  buy  canoes  out  and  out 
ami  put  white  hunters  in  theiii.  Hid  you  cet  white  huiiers 
to  auree  to  that?       .\. — ^■e!^. 

(i. — IHtl  you  itel  men  well  accustomed  to  canoes?  A. — • 
Yes.  ffood  yoiin;;  fellows. 

Q.--rinler  the  cirtiimstiiiices  you  boii};lit  canoes  and  paid 
lor  tliein?     .V. — Yes. 

Q.— Ami  you  paid  :f-*4S  for  them?  A.— Yes.  I  paid  that 
for  the  canoes  with  the  oiiltil.  There  were  paddles,  and  a 
nniHt,  ami  sails,  ami  what  we  call  seal  blatlders.  The  In- 
dians were  ill  the  habit  those  days  of  iisiii!;  seal  bladders 
hishetl  on  the  sides  of  tlieir  canoes  tlip-iii}:  the  roii}:li  weath- 
er, .•iiitl  the  owners  tliotiirht  it  was  a  ;;ootl  way  and  took 
bhi.ltiers  aloiift  with  them.  The  canoes  really  cost  foO  each, 
a'ld  there  was  ?!><  for  the  outfit. 

Q.— After  >oii  >rol   canoes,  did  you  lit   them  out   with  row- 

leiii 


.\. — After  p'ttiiif;  them   I   put   steel    ribs    in    tl 


locks 

ami   row  locks  siill<-d   to  the  white  me 

♦i. — State  what  are  the  lenjiths  of  these  canoes,  ami  what 
size  they  are?  .\.-They  are  from  Jit  to  'J:?  feel  in  Itnuth 
and  about  four  feet  wide  at  the  giinwak'.      I  do  not  remem- 


|W  n-wyw^ 


96 


10 


20 


3« 


40 


50 


(50 


Ih'I'  their  diineiiHiiuiH  «>xac-tlv.  Tlwy  are  inatlc  uiit  «)f  a  lai'};<,' 
cedar  lo){,  and  I  put  Hteel  rittbiii^  in  tlieiii  h»  aH  t<>  prevent 
tlieni  from  uplitting,  and  tlie.v  were  fasteuud  through  and 
through. 

y. — Are  tljey  eali-uiated  to  Hiaud  a  heavy  ^ea?  A. — Yes, 
the  Indian  eanoes  are  cal«'ulated  to  Htand  <|uite  a  heavy  8ea, 
and  tlu'y  do  so. 

Q. — And  tiiey  are  rigg«'d  with  a  inaBt  and  Hails?  A. — 
Yes.  They  use  «)arH  in  cliasiug  a  tniveller,  namely,  a  seal 
that  was  wounded,  Imt  wlien  fliey  get  up  to  a  sleejjer  they 
paddle  quietly. 

Q. — Yon  aetuallv  paid  ?50  each  for  these  canoes.  A. — 
Yes. 

Q. — And  you  could  not  get  them  for  less?  A. — No,  I  paid 
150  last  year  for  canoes. 

Q. — You  do  not  thinli  the  price  out  rtf  the  way?  A. — Not 
out  of  the  way. 

y. — Tlie  canoes  y«)U  bought  last  year  are  of  the  same  di'- 
scription?  A. — Yes;  we  can  get  canm>8  all  the  wav  from 
f2()  to  $m. 

H- — IMease  look  at  Voucher  No.  '2i  and  state  what  it  is? 
A. — This  is  a  voucher  or  receipt  from  William  Turtle;  it  is 
for  tanks.  e(c.    for  the  schooner  'Carolena." 

Q. — Is  that  an  original  bill?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — It  is  not  included  in  the  value  of  the  ship?      A. — No. 

Q. — And  you  j)aid  it  yourself?    A. — Yes. 

y. — IMease  l<M)k  at  voucher  2.'»  and  state  what  that  is?  A. 
— That  is  a  re«*eipt  from  Mr.  Janion  for  salt  for  the  curing 
of  seal  skins  and  for  wharfage  on  fitur  loads  of  freight;  it  is 
for  the  schooner  "Carolena." 

Q. — Please  look  at  voucher  26  and  state  what  that  is?  A. 
— That  is  from  the  schooner  "Pathfinder"  to  the  schooner 
"<'arolena."  and  is  for  f45  for  salt  and  other  things.  That 
was  taken  over  by  the  "<'arolena"  from  the  "Pathfinder." 

ti. — Voucher  27  is  a  charge  of  $2.75  for  water;  is  that  ror- 
re<'t?       A. — Yes. 

(i. — You  paid  it  and  it  was  for  the  "Carolena"?   A. — Yes. 

Q. — Voucher  28  is  a  receipt  from  A.  11.  Frances,  and  is  for 
fl.75  for  hardware  for  the  "Carolena."  You  paid  that  and  it 
is  correct?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

(J. — N'oucher  20  is  a  receipt  from  Mnirliead  &  Carter  for 
demijohns  for  the  "Carolena."'  The  amount  is  l^.oO  and  you 
paid  it?  A. — Yes.  These  demijohns  were  used  in  the  i-a- 
noes  for  carrying  wat«>r  out  to  sea  while  the  men  weiv  away 
from  the  vessel. 

Q. — Is  voucher  30  an  original  document?     A. — Yes. 

Q. — Have  you  a  receipt  from  the  captain  for  that?  A. — 
Y«'s. 

Q. — What  does  it  say?  A. — It  acknowledges  the  receipt 
of  f.'iOO  for  incidental  expenses  and  advances,  etc.,  to  men  on 
the  vovage,  and  is  signed  bv  James  Ogilvi*',  the  master.  It 
is  dated  May  10.  18S0. 

Q. — Did  vou  'j:iv<'  Captain  Ogilvie  |500  in  cash  when  he  left 
Victoria?  *    A.— Yes. 

(J. — Did  he  take  that  money  with  him  as  far  as  you  know? 
A. — Yes.  so  far  as  I  know  he  t«M»k  it. 

Q. — Is  it  usual  to  give  a  captain  money  in  that  way?  A. — 
It  is  cust«miary  always  to  sup))ly  the  captain  with  some 
mcmey  when  he  leaves  port,  so  that  in  the  event  of  his  run- 
ning out  of  provisions,  or  going  in  anywhere  in  distress,  he 
may  have  tin*  nion«>y  that  he  reiiuires. 

Q. — And  outside  <»f  all  question  of  custom,  you  positively 
swear  tliut  you  gave  Captain  f)gilvie  that  money?    A. — Yes. 

Q. — Did  you  ever  receive  any  of  that  money  back?  A. — 
Never. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Do  yoti  claim  that  the  Cnlted  States  con- 
verted the  f500  in  casli  to  its  own  use? 


20 


97 

Mr.  INltrs:— I  clitiin  tliat  llicii-  im|ii<)pi'i'  iii-lion  in  iisinj: 
(hat  iil<l  man  anil  |iiit(iii}i  liini  iuio  a  jilait'  wlit'iv  soiik'ImmIv 
lohlicd  liiin  iiiakfM  llicni  so  far  n'sjionsililt'  for  it.  I  do  uot 
say  they  took  it  tln'inscivcs. 

Kxaniiuatioii  by  .Mr.  IV'tiMS  coiitinuid: 

(^.—Tlit'ic  ail"  SOUK'  otlici-  inattt'is  included  in  (hat  vouclicr 
No. :!(».  I'lcasc  explain  what  they  aif?  A.— Thtic  is  an  item 
for  $''t  for  nautical  instiunicnis.  Tin  sc  wci-o  on  tlic  whip. 
'°  and  I  am  not  suic  wIk)  they  hcionp-d  to.  I  was  roNponHililo 
for  them.  I  hoi'i'owcd  tlicm  fioni  Hoinc  pci-son.  but  I  cannot 
say  who  they  belon^jed  to. 

(i. — In  the  invenloiy  supplied  l»y  my  leai-nod  friend  I  see 
they  ate  styled  as  an  octant  and  a  qiiadi-ant.  I  suppose 
these  are  the  sume?       A.— I  suppose  so. 

1^.— Was  ?!7.")  the  value  of  them?  A. — I  would  not  swwir 
to  it.  I  ])nl  them  in  at  $7.").  presuming;  they  were  worlli 
that. 

ii. — When  did  you  make  that  voucher  up?  A. — A  few  days 
ajid    It  is  simply  a  statement,  and  not  a  receipt. 

ii. — Kid  you  make  any  im|uiry  about  the  value?  A. — Yes, 
I  made  some  incpiiries.  aiul  the  result  was  that  I  consider 
they  would  be  woith  about  ^7'). 

(i.— What  else  is  there  included  in  that  Voucher  Xo.  .'50? 
A.— Then    is  (Uie  boat  valued  at  *10(». 

Q. — Was  that  a  sealinp  boat,  or  a  ship's  boat?  A. — It  is 
so  lonji  a^o  I  do  not  remember;  I  remember  buying  the  boat, 
but  from  whom  I  caiiiiot  remember,  but  I  know  the  boat  was 
on  board  the  "('aiolena"  when  she  left,  and  I  believe  flOO  to 
be  a  fail'  value  for  it. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  (he  United  States: — Had 
the  "Caridena"  any  boat  when  you  bouf^ht  her? 

Witness: — She  had  a  large  ship's  boat. 

Q.— What  beiame  of  that?  / 

Witness: — I  do  not  rememl)er.  '>.'-*..    ■'■ 

40        iK.xamlnalion  by  Mr.   I'eters  conlinued.) 

(i. — This  is  not  the  boat  that  was  on  her  when  you  bought 
her?  .\. — I  think  I  bought  that  boat  from  Mr.  TolVin,  a  boat 
builder,  but  I  cannot  remember  now  whether  she  was  a  seal- 
ing boat  or  not. 

(} — N'oucher   niimb"i    :U    is  a   receii»t   from   Thomas  Shot- 

and  medicines     for    !f4.S(l.       That     was     for 

Jiiid  you  puid  it?      .\. — Yes. 

numbi'r  :?■_'  is  for  <ustoms,     shipping     crews, 

50    etc.,  for  the  "Caiolena  "  jit  Victoi-ia;  it  amounts  to  p\,  and  is 

Yes,  that   is  the  original  receipt  from  the 


30 


60 


bolt  f(»r  di'iigs 
the  "Carolena,"' 

(i.^N'oucher 
etc.,  for  the  "(' 
it  coricct?       A.- 
ship[»ing  mast«'r. 

(). — Voucher  iinmlMr  ;U  is  from  Hall,  fSoepel  &  Conijiany 
for  *nir>  for  marine  insurant e  Did  you  actually  pay  that 
insura:ice?  A. — I  presume  1  did,  bec:mse  here'  is  the  re- 
ci'il)t  f<u'  the  full  amount:  it  says.  "Heceived  fr<uu  Messrs. 
Munsie  &  Co.  the  sum  of  .%'U."),  being  ])renuuni  of  nuirine  in- 
stiraiK-e  on  the  hull  of  sealing  schooner  'Tarolena."  and  on 
tatch.  namelv,  *_',.">(tO  on  hull  of  schooner,  on  a  valuaticm  of 
!*I.(MI(»,  and  *l.(Ht(>  on  catch,  jtolicy  to  be  issued  subject  t(»  the 
usual  conditions.  Mlall.  <ioepel  iS:  Company,  agents  for  Call 
fornia   Insui,\nee  Coiii))any." 


The  Commissioner  on  the 
What  is  the  dat.'  of  that'' 


part  of  (he     Vulted     States- 


Witness:— The  Jth  .March,  ISSC. 


9- 

7 


-Was  it  a   voyage  or  time  policy? 


m  1  ^  Tw^ 


lO 


20 


98 

WiliM'HK: — We  iiHUiillv  tiike  thcin  out  for  twrlvi'  iiioiidiHtiiul 
«.jiiu-«-l  tlu'iii  when  the  Hliip  rctiiriiH  to  port. 

(Kxiiniiiiiitiou   by   Mr.    I't-trrs.) 

ti. — Then'  is  no  doubt  you  paid  llsat?  A. — I  paid  it  at 
llu'  time,  but  wijctlu'!-  I  luid  any  rebate  or  not,  I  aui  not  pre- 
pared (0  H!iy. 

ti. — I  believe  you  made  inquiries  ns  to  wlu'tber  you  >jot  a 
rel>ate  or  n(tt,  and  you  were  unable  to  asiertain?      A. — Yes. 

The  Coniniissloner  on  tin'  part  of  the  United  States: — That 
eov«'red  tlu'  veNsel  for  a  year? 

WitnesH.- — That  cov.'red  the  veHsel  for  a  year.  I  was  un- 
der the  ini|M-e8sion  that  I  would  pt-t  the  vessel  bark,  and  af- 
ter she  was  insured  I  did  not  eare  to  eanc«'l  the  jiolity,  and 
just  liow  lon^  that  policy  ran  I  am  not  positive,  as  I  have 
forf;ott<'n.  Mr.  Hall,  who  is  now  here,  has  forgotten  him- 
self, and  the  company  is  not  in  existence 

(Examination  by  Mr.  Peters  continued.) 

Q. — As  you  expect,  d  to  pet  tlie  vessel  back  you  did  not 
cancel  the  policy?  .\. — I  did  not  cancel  the  policy  at  the 
lime,  but  how  hnm  I  let  the  policy  run  I  do  not  renu'niber. 

(J. — Y(»u  stated  thai  at  that  time  you  did  not  keep  any 
books?      A. — I  did  not  keep  any. 

The  Commissioner  on  tlie  j»art  of  the  T'nited  States: — 
What  would  be  a  fair  rate  of  ]u-eminm  for  a  scaling  voyage? 

Witness:— From  ten  to  fifteen  per  cent. 

(i.— That  is  for  the  year? 

Witness: — Jus!  for  tlie  tim«'  it  would  b«'  at  a  rate  of  front 
(en  to  lifti'en  ]><'r  cent  ,  with  a  little  added  for  tlu'  unexpired 
term.  .\t  the  present  time  they  leave  here  in  .laniiary.  and 
they  don't  get  home  intil  the  latter  i»art  of  October.  We 
l»ay  about  nine  months  ]>reminm  at  ilie  present  time. 

(Kxamiuation  by  .Mr.  I'eters  continued.) 

iy — Look  at  voucher  number  ;{">,  and  state  what  that  is? 
A. — This  is  an  original  voucher  for  ^12..">(l  for  potatoes  i»ut 
on  board  the  schooner  "raroleiia." 

ii. — Look  at  voucher  'U!  and  state  what  is  is?  \. — This  is 
a  voiichei-  for  groceiies  and  ammunition,  etc.,  it  amounts  to 
¥-lss.:{7. 

Q.— Is  that  the  original  lull?  A.— That  is  the  original  bill 
at  the  time      It  is  from  the  firm  of  Carne  &  Munsie. 

i}. — The  llrm  of  ("ariie  &  Munsie  furnislie>|  goods  to  the 
schooner  "<'arolena"  to  that  extent?  .\. — Yes.  goods  to  that 
value. 

(i. — .\nd  these  goods  were  all  jiut  on  board  h  1  .\. — ■ 
Yes,  that  bill  is  dated  May  IMth,  ISSfi.  That  is  included  in 
that  amount  for  ami'iunitiou. 

('ommissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  Slates: — How 
much  does  that  leave  you  f(M-  provisioning?  A. —  It  would 
leave  42t>  odd  d(dlars. 

^Q  I  Examination  l>y  Mr.  I'eters  continued.) 

Q. — There  ai"  several  other  bills  for  provisions  that   went 


30 


40 


50 


on  board  the  Parolena  that  v<'ar? 


.\.— Y 


The  t'omiiiisHioner  on  tie  part  of  the  Tnited  States:— For 
what  time  was  the  "t'aiolena"  provisi(uied  when  she  left 
here? 


Witn. 


Wi 


vessels  tlM'ii  as 


were    not    as    experienced    ill  provisioning 
*e  are  now,  and  we  ciilciil.itcd  that  it  woi'ld 


99 


20 


1m-  for  tlu'  NCiiN»>ii,  iilthii'iK'li  tlif  taittaih  wtiH  pntvidctl  with 
HiiiiK-  iiioiM'V,  s<i  tliiit  in  lite  i-\«'iit  of  liin  rmiiiiny;  out  of  pro- 
visions  li('"(onl<l  {,'o  to  Ouujila«<l»a  or  any  whirt'  elMi-  he 
lilifd  and  reproviuion. 

(Kxaniination  b.v  Mr.  I'l'tt'iH  continni'd): 

(2._So  tl.al  in  addition  to  pntlinK  tlu'  pioviwions  on  board 
von  f,'iivt'  liini  nioin-y  so  as  to  let  liini  buy  i»i-ovi8iou8  if  n«'rt'«- 
sary?  A. — V«'s. 
,Q  (}.— Look  at  vouilii'r  nninh«r  :{7,  and  state  what  tliat  is? 
A.— It  is  an  oi-lj,'ina!  rctcipt  from  11.  Heali  &  Coinitany  for 
corned  lieef  and  fn-sii  beef  put  on  tlie  "Caroleiia"  and  it 
amounts  to  If'l  \'2.'Mi. 

(^._l,„oli  at  xoucher  :$S  and  state  wlmt  that  was  for?  A. 
— Tliis  is  a  receipt  from  the  Colonial  lliitel  for  board  of 
crew. 

(^.—Tcll  the  Commissioners  what  that  is  for?  A. — Then- 
is  an  amount  for  board  of  crew  and  for  hams  and  bacon.  In 
littinfi  out  at  Victoria,  we  have  a  custom  of  letting  the  men 
lioard  in  the  hold  while  the  vessel  is  at  the  wlnirf.  We  have 
fouml  that  it  was  cheaper  to  do  that  than  to  have  a  cook  on 
board  and  feed  ihe  nidi  on  the  ship  while  she  is  lying  at  the 
wharf.  While  w«'  luive  a  cook  on  board  tlu-re  are  always  a 
lot  of  loafers  around  the  wharf  who  are  glad  to  get  meals 
for  nothing  if  they  can. 

Q.— Is  that  a  usual  custom?  A —That  is  the  uustoni 
with  a  great  nuiny  of  us. 

Q. — Is  that  an  original  vouclx'r?     A. — Yes. 

(5._\-o,icher  .'W  is  a  receipt  f<u-  ¥!t2  from  Nesbitt  &  Com- 
30     i»any  for  biscuits.     Is  that   for  the  ship?     A.— That   is   for 
the  .ship  and  it  is  an  original  voucher. 

(^.—Voucher  1(1  is  a  receipt  for  |1(>.!)(»  from  Ar  lloon  for 
vegetables,  is  that  an  original  receipt?     A. — Yes. 

(i.— A'ouchtir  n  is  a  ri-ceipt  foi-  |i77.U>  from  Robert  Ward 
&  Co..  for  powder,  is  that  a  correct  bill?  A.— That  is  the 
original  bill. 

(}.— How  nnuli  powder  will  that  include?  A. — 123 
I>ounds. 

(I. — Was  that  all  (he  powder  that  was  on  board  the  "Car- 
olena"  then?  A.— I  will  not  be  positive  as  to  that,  there 
mav  have  been  more,  b'lt  1  cannot  say  positively. 

t^. — What  ()u:inlity  of  i»owder  is  generally  taken  on  a  voy- 
age of  this  kind"'  .\.  -At  the  present  time  we  take  about  V2 
t  went -live  jtoiind  kegs,  or  .'{(Ml  pounds. 

iy — Mow  much  jiowdei  use«l  you  to  take  in  ISSfi?  A. — I 
do  not  remember  now,  but  I  iuuigine  I  considered  what  I 
liought  was  enough,  although  t la-re  i>robably  may  have  b(-(-n 
smiie  on  board. 

Q. — Voucher  42  is  a  reci-ipt  for  ;fl4.r»0  for  caitridges,  (-tc.. 
friuu  (Jutman  &  Frank.  What  kind  of  cartridges  did  you 
use?  A. — We  used  brass  shells  for  ten  w  twt  ive  bore  guns; 
tlu-y  w«-re  l)r(-ech  loading  guns  and  s<uue  of  them  may  have 
been  rilles.  I  s.t-  (here  is  an  it<'m  here  for  :>((((  cartri<lges  to  be 
cn-dited  on  r(-lurn,  liul  the  vess(-l  iie\(-r  returut-d  and  cons(-- 
ipienlly,  I  ju'esnuje,  (iu-  bill  was  j>aid. 

t^. — N'oucher  4:5  is  fr<nii   the  Iludstui   Hay  Co.       What  is 
that  for?      A.— It  is  ^\:\.:V2  for  shot,  but  I  see  there  is  a  keg 
<tf  powd<-r  incliidi-d,  and  so  thert-  was  more  on  board     the 
(3q      schooner  than  I  tlxuight. 

(i. — I  believe  that  is  a  duplicate  receipt?  A. — Yes,  that 
is  a  duplicate  n-ceipt,  but  the  Hudson  May  people  are  here 
yet,  and  can  lu-  examined. 

H. — \'oucher  44  is  from  the  schooner  "Carolena"'  debtor  to 
the  schooner  "rathrtnlder"  for  guns  and  shot,  foOO?  A. — 
Tha(  is  for  six  shotguns  at  f.")(l  each,  four  rilles  and  a  thous- 
and |iounds  of  shot. 

iy — Wh(  I)  was  that  voucln-r  made  out?      A. — On  Mav  the 


40 


50 


wm 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


r.o 

12th.  ISHli;  lliiit   i»  lln'  "i-ininiil  voucluT.       Tlu'so  minn  w<'rc 
Kupnlh'd  from  (Ik-    'PiiHiniiacr.' 

t^._\Vi,„  „wn.«l  til.'  "I'sitlirtmlcir'  A.-Mymlf  iiiul 
raiiH'.  Tht'ii.  1111(1  •■veil  now.  wlit-ii  oidcriiifi  iiimmiiiilioii  or 
oalt  wi'  vcrv  fr»Miu«'iillv  have  (Ik-  iinoirc  math-  oul  to  one  vcs 
s«'l.  and  Oh'Ii  wi-  «livi(i<'  to  carli  vtsHcl  in  |ii(»poition  t«t  what 
iIm'V  rH.  I  have  oidcit d  '»(» Ions  of  salt  al  a  lime  and  <harK»'d 
it  to  <»n<'  vt'Km-l.  ImiI  as  a  |»orlion  was  dclivcn-d  to  other  vcs- 
Ht'ls  wf  would  lake  a  vonchci-  and  charnc  it  to  i-aih  vessel. 

y.— And  the  •Carolena"  jtoi  from  tin-  •I'atliHndei"'  tho 
j{uns.  HHes  and  shot  mentioned?      A.— Yes. 

(^._Thal  was  the  voucher  made  u|i  at  the  time?  A.— 
Yes.  We  use  as  a  rule  »(iO  fjuns,  less  2r»  per  cent,  olf ;  then 
we  add  the  dut.v.  about  "jr.  or  .«»  per  cent.,  which  hrintJH  them 
up  to  ahout  foil  or  f.")  each. 

Q_ — That  was  the  class  of  nun  that  was  on  hoard  the  '•  Caro- 
lena?" A.— Yes.  If  I  reniemlter  rifjht  these  were  Knplish 
j;unHon  the  "t'arolena,"  but  1  am  not  very  positive. 

Q._I,i.t  us  tinderstand  thorou<ihly  how  these  tinns  were 
b<MiKht  from  the  "I'alhHnder?"  You  would  (,'et  more  Runs 
at  tmce  than  von  would  need  for  one  ship,  and  then  you 
would  divide  them?  A.— We  wt.uld  }jet  1-'  or  14  guns  at  a 
time,  and  charge  them  originally  to  the  im«>  vessel.  We  w<mld 
then  Rive  two  or  three  Runs  to  ditT<'rent  vessels  as  they  re- 
quired them,  and  we  wciuld  Rive  a  voucher  and  fharRe  them 
to  each  vessel.  ' 

(i.— And  as  a  matter  of  fact  the  "farolena"  at  that  time 
Rot  that  number  of  Runs  and  rilles?      A. — Ves. 

Q. — Voucher  4.'>  is  a  receipt  fnuu  I»rake  &  .lackson  for 
fTl.lO  for  h^Rul  (-xpenses.  Did  you  actually  pay  that  sum 
in  connection  with  the  schooner  "Candena"  for  IcRal  ex- 
penses? A. — Yes;  that  was  for  the  i>reparation  of  the  claims 
oriRinally.  The  tirst  bill  was  rendered  on  the  .'jth  of  Sep- 
temb<'r.  is8.**. 

Q.— And  the  bill  is  for  dilTerent  IcRal  expenses  incurr«'d 
in  rcRurd  to  this  matter,  and  the  items  speak  for  themselves? 
A.— Yes. 

The  t'onnnissioner  on  the  part  of  tiu'  I'nitcd  States: — That 
is  in  the  Hritish  case,  is  it? 

Mr.  Peters:— I  believe  so.  but  I  do  not  know  that  the  items 
are  actually  state<l  there. 

Kxamination  bv  Mr.  Peters  continued: — - 


Q. — Take  voucliei-  4(i  and  slate  what  that  is?  .\. — This 
is  a  bill  for  JjitJTS  !H»  fnuu  Mr.  .\.  L.  Helyea;  the  oriRinal 
amount  of  that   bill  was  fT.'tO. 

Q. —  As  a  matter  of  fact,  was  iin  ari'aiiRement  made  be- 
5©  tween  you  as  to  the  amount?  .\. —  I  believe  there  was  an 
ari-aiiRenienl.  Drake  tV  .lackson  were  (ireparinR  the  claim 
oriRinally  in  ISHti.  and  it  ap| rs  that  the  tiovernment  want- 
ed a  revisicui  of  the  claim,  and  Mr.  Helyea  then  took  the  mat- 
ter up. 

ii. — .\t  whose  retjuest?  .\. — .\t  the  reiplest  of  the  owners, 
myself  amoHRst  others,  and  .Mr.  Helyea  conducted  the  further 
business  in  connection  with  this  and  other  claims. 

ii. — Did    he    make    an    arraiiRement    for    the    amount    he 
should  be  paiti  Un  the  whide  transaction?       .\. — He  was  to 
60    attend  to  the  wiiole  matter  foi-  the  sum  of  |7.'>t». 


Ves. 


That  was  :i  barRain  made  with  you  years  aRo?      A.- 


ii. — .\nd  before  you  had  any  idea  that  there  w<nild  be  any 
Convention  of  iiiis  kind?  .\. — 1  never  dreamt  there  would 
be  any  thiiiR  of  the  ';ind. 

ii. — That  aRrcement   was  made  by  you?      .\. — Yes. 

Q.— .\s  a  matter  of  fail,  you  did  noi  pay  that  amount  yet? 
A. — No,  I  paid  part  of  it  only. 


lot 


10 


30 


40 


Oo 


(J.— Only  a  Hiiiiill  i>(»ili<»ii'.'  A. — YcN.  Ill  (liiH  bill  1  liavo 
nivHi'lf  iltMliK'icil  til**  yn.lo  uf  iM-iikf  &  JiK-kHdii'M  bill,  wbieb 
I  iiiid  lo  iMiy.  Al  til''  HiiiiK'  tiiiK",  l<»  k<'<'it  liic  t'XiKMiHCH  witb- 
ill  tin-  cliiiiii«  I  'Icdiiit'-d  iJH'  |71.U». 

t^.— Y»»ii  iij,'n'(<l  Willi  Mr.  lUIyi'ii  fov  IT.'iO,  but  wlieii  you 
l»ut  in  till'  voiicbcr  for  l)riik'''H  bill,  you  dtMliKlcd  Ibat  mo  »h 
to  iiiiikf  the  wbolc  thing  |7r>(l?      A. — V«'S. 

(|.— Vou  iiiiid  iIk'  -^Tl  iiiid  you  iiIho  ]taid  Mr.  n<'ly«'a  soiiit- 
liiiiif?  on  iucount  of  tlii'  bill?       A. — Yi-s. 

(i.— And  then-  is  a  ivgiilar  iigrci'int'Ut  (hut  Mr.  Ut'lycu 
i-lioiild  t;<'<  #"o<>'      A  — Vi'S. 

(2._ Voucher   !7  is  a  bill  for  fV»(»  from  Willougbby  t'birk 


for  b'gal  <'X|M'iist'.-< 


\.— That   wuH  incurred  in  Kitka,  AbiH 


ka.  and  1  actually  iiaid  il.  and  tliiM  iu  the  original  receipt. 
Mr.  ("lark  defended  'he  case  at  Sitka. 

(i.— That   wa.-t  for  ihe  whole  bgal  work  at  Kitka?       A.— 
Yes.  for  (he  whole  legal  work  on  the  part  of  the  "Carolena"  al 


Sitka. 


A.— 1  be 

20        licv,.  it  was  the  inaHti'r  of  (he  "("aroleiia."  or  at  leuHt  so  the 


l^.— NVho  waH  i(  eiii])loyed  Mr.  Clark  a(  Si(ka 


mate  informed  me  on  his  return. 


lie  said  (ha(  Mr.  Clark 


ottered  his  serviies,  .Old  (hat  be  would  see  the  case  (hrongli 
Ihe  Supri-me  Court  of  (he  rni(ed  S(ates  for  |u(y(( 

ii. — NVeie  you  drawn  upon 
a  draft  on  me  for  f.'iiHl. 


for  tills  amount?  A.— He  made 


(i.— Who  was  the  draft  sigm 


•d  bv?      .\.— It  was  signed  by 


ihe  m 


ster,  I  believe,  before  he  died. 


Q. — Did  you  honor  that  draft 


-I  did  not. 


-Yes. 


(2._|Md  vou  iilterwiirds  have  to  pay  the  draft? 

ii—l  beiieve  some  skins  belonging  to  you  got  into  Ameri- 


can territory 


-Yes. 


ti 


And  did  Mr.  Clark  seize  them  on  account  of  the  bill^ 


A.— Yes. 


tj.— And  what  did  you  give  him  for  i(?  A.— Tie  seized 
1(1(1  skins,  and  I  was  forced  to  give  him  .".(»  skins  to  settle  (he 
bill;  (he  skins  were  wor(h  (o  me  »".•(».  as  it  afterwards  tran- 
spired according  (o  (he  sale. 

Q._So  (ha(  i'is(ead  of  paying  #.">00  you  actualy  paid  fiiXI 


lor  Mr.  Clark's  bill?       A.— Yei 


Q._\Vlia(  y. 


tliaC 


.\.— In   1S!»2.  I   (liiiiU;  it  was 


(he  year  of  (hi-  siiziii"  of  (he  ••Coiiuidaiu"  and  (he  skins  were 
on  board  lior. 

Q. — There  is  iiere  a  bill,  voucher  number  4.**.  from  J.  1>. 
\Yarren  f(U-  ll.u'.  Tell  us  aboiK  this?  A.— Captain  \Yar- 
reii  was  a  gentleman  who  was  appointed  by  us  to  go  to  Otta- 
wa to  rearrange  (he  claims  in  coiiformi(y  widi  the  wishes 
of  the  (loverniiient ;  he  was  a  gentleman  who  liad  a  good 
deal  of  e.\perieiuc  in  sealing. 

(i. — lie  went  there  at  the  request  of  all  jiarties?     A. — Y 's. 

(i.— This  receipt  reads  rebruary  2:!.  ISMS,  "deceived  ^in:.' 
in  full  for  services  and  exjteiises  a( lending  to  claim  of  (In 
schooner  "Caroleiia"  a(  Ottawa.       Signed.  .1.  T>.  >VarieT;  " 

Q. —  Was  (he  total  ex[)ense  ilivi<led  amongst  all  the 
schooners?  .\. — I  ]>resiiine  so,  that  was  my  projiortion  for 
tli<-  schooner  "Caroleiia,"  ami   I   paid  it. 

Q. —  In  voucher  4i(  ,\oii  make  a  claim  of  $'2!H\  for  personal 
services.  Please  ("xplaiii  that.  .\re  you  pre]iared  .0  give 
to  this  Tribunal  any  detailed  items  of  your  own  jtersonal 
trouble  and  expenses?      .\. — \o,  1  am  not. 

Q. —  .\s  a  matter  <»f  fact  at  the  (iiiie  of  the  seizure,  and  for 
some  time  aftei-wards.  were  you  put  to  a  great  deal  of  per- 
sonal (rouble  and  expense  in  connection  with  it?  .\.—  S'es. 
1  spent  a  great  deal  of  time  in  connecdon  wi(b  it. 

Q. — You  do  not  pis'teml  (o  give  (he  i(ems?  .\. — No.  I  do 
not,  I  paid  nionev  out  that  I  ke]i(  no  account  of  in  gathering 
information  and  I  lost  a  great  deal  of  time  for  a!'  of  whioli 
I  charged  iJS.V). 


!|',  1 1  fm'w 


102 


in 


20 


n 


60 


l^.— I»(i  von  Ihiiik  llio  iliiiryt-  is  l«o  iniuli?  A.— I  «lo  iiol 
think  HO. 

(^._.\„w,  \vf  will  III!  ('  voiulii'i-  :V.',  wiiicti  iiinoiiiiU  »o 
ipTl.Tl'.  iiiKl  wliicli  is  for  IraiiHiioii  iiiid  lioiinl  of  new,  to  tlu' 
i'tuitiv  t/oiiHt  Stciimship  Coiniinii^'.  Will  .v»mi  «'.\i»laiii  tlial? 
A.— II  ii|»|M-)irH  that  at  llu'  tiiiH"  the  wizinc  wan  iiiadt'  tin- 
sailoiH  wfi-f  |iiit  on  )ioar«l  the  HlfanitT  iin<l  wnl  to  San 
Frani-im-o,  and  lln-y  wi-rc  lurn«'»l  adrift  dcHlitutf.  On  llu- 
stitMiKlli  of  a  U'Icfiiani,  if  I  ifnicrnilMM  coin'cll.v  to  Mr. 
Kilhct,  tlu'  I'acillc  t'oast  StfaniHliip  t'onipany  took  charfx*-  of 
llit'ni  and  Ncnt  tiicni  to  an  hotel  and  paid  their  hotel  hillH, 
and  paid  their  passage  from  San  Franeiwo  to  Victoria. 

(^._|»i,l  von  i»a.v  these  liilU?  A.— I  did,  There  Ih  an 
anionnt  t»f  #40  for  pawsatre  money  and  Jjfltl.Tl'  for  board  of 
men,  e.\  s(hoon<'r   •Caiolena"  wliih'  in  San  FraneiHco. 

(2. — V«Mi  had  not  aiiv  donht  thev  were  bona  tide  billH  and 
.von  paid  them?  .\. — They  appean-d  to  be  eerlilled  by  one 
of  the  <  rew  as  correct  and  I  paid  them. 

g. — Now.  voncher  No.  .'»(•  \»  for  the  value  of  tlie  ship,  and 


for  that   yon   charire  $i4,(l(Hri 


•That   includes  the   vessel 


as  she  was  ri;;<red.  her  hull,  sails  and  anchors,  and  every 
thin;;  of  that  description,  but  not  the  sealing;  outfit. 

(i. — And  none  of  the  items  already  mentioned  by  you  here- 
tofore are  include«l  in  that  amount?  A. — None  of  these  otn- 
<>r  items  are  included  in  that  amount. 

U. — As  a  mater  of  fact,  is  that  the  fair  value  for  that  ship 
as  she  was?     A. — Wt'll,  I  would  not  like  to  swear  jtositively. 
I  paid  at  the  rat*-  of  #:{,S(»(I  for  her,  but  there  are  jtrobably 
30       others  who  are  better  able  to  tell  the  real  valiu'  of  the  ves- 
sel than  I  am. 

(2. —  In  yotir  own  opinion  is  it  a  fair  value  for  the  ship? 
A  — I  consider  it  fair. 

(i. — After  yon  bou<rht  the  ship  did  you  have  anything 
•lone  to  her  before  you  went  sealing?  A. — Some  tritling  re 
j»aii's  only. 

(2. — \\'hal   was  slie  iis«'d  for  after  you  bonu;ht  her?     A. — 
Afl«-r  she  mad;'  the  Spring  trip,  the  l>(»minion  (iovernment 
chartered  her  In  ]S'^r>  for  l>r.  i>aws<m  to  make  a  surveying 
4fJ        expedition  of  the  coast  of  Vancouver  Island. 

(i.— Was  there  :inv  talk  of  their  buying  her?  A.— Well. 
Dr.  l>awMon  suggested  that  if  the  government  intended  to  do 
any  extensive  saiveying  he  would  lik«'  io  buy  such  a  vesse't. 
Thiit  was  all  there  was  to  it. 

(J. — Was  the  "Carulena"  in  good  condition  then?  A. — 
Yes 

Q. — When  sh"  left  in  ISSti,  was  she  in  good  condition?  A. — 
First-<'lass,  and  in  g»»od  ord«'r. 

ii. — Was  she  repaired  often?     .\. — Just  the  usual  repair.-* 

5"        we  have  to  make  each  year.     Itefore  1  bought  hor  in  1SS4,  I 

believ<'.  she  Iijid  a     thorough     overhauling.     I      understood 


there  was  ii  great  deal  of  new  woi-k  done  on  her  tl 


leii. 


New 

Hl>ars,  new  rigging  and  new  sails,  but  I  gather  frmn  the  sur- 
veyor's report : — 

Q.— What  was  the  "Carcdena"  built  of?  A.— Native  pine, 
Oregon  pine. 

Q. — Is  that  considered  to  tie  a  good  mnlerial?      A. — It  is. 

{}. — Were  her  sails  new  or  old?  A — I  see  by  the  survey- 
or's re]iort  that  she  had  new  sails.  I  do  not  know  whelTier 
they  were  all  new  or  not  but  I  gathered  that  from  the  sur- 
veyor's report  of  1SS4  or  ISS'). 

ii. — The  "Carolena"  was  in  good  order  in  ISSfi,  and  you 
consider  |4.(MK»  not  an  unfair  value?     A. — It  is  not  unfair. 

Q.— In  ISSfi  was  there  a  demand  for  vessels  of  her  descrij) 
tion  to  engage  in  the  sealing  business?     A. — Yes. 

Q. —  Was  sealinj:  on  the  increase  then?  A. — It  was  just 
be^rinning  to  increase. 

Q. — You  had  nolhing  to  do  with  sealing  in  Tlehring  se.i 
before  that  yejir?     A    -Not  in  Itehring  sea,  but  I  had  on  tin; 


I03 


10 


20 


30 


40 


lO 


60 


roiist  oiu'  vcjir.  Tin-it-  had  Im«-ii  a  few  vchchIh  \ntiu\i  io 
!»<'liriM>,'  H«'"a,  l»u(  fioiii  ISSl'  or  iSM.l  Jln-y  lit-uaii  lo  pt  llii-n- 
iiion-  iiiul  iiioi-i-  until  I.SHli. 

il — Ilail  von  lM'«-n  looking;  out  for  a  mliooni-r  for  iiiiv  Uiiu* 
licfon-  yon  boujflil  lliin  inn-?  A.— Yt-tt.  I  lliluk  my  lirnt 
w-alinn  v«-n(nr»'  waH  in  aliont  1SH2  or  1SH.'{.  wlii-n  I  rharli-n-d 
a  vi'MHcl.  lint  iIh  "rarolrna"  wan  tin-  HrHt  vchhcI  artnally 
liunglit  — 

Q.— Had  yon  iK-t-n  looking  fm-  one  for  any  linn-  bt-forc  yon 
IioiikIi)  lilt'  "raroh-na"?  A.— YtM.  and  tin-  'Tarolt-na"  waw 
lilt'  Hrnl  vi'sst'l  I  was  aldf  tti  Itny.  Caplain  Spring  bttn>jlil 
II Mlatk  Mianitnid."  wliitli  I  hatl  tlnirlfrt'tl  in  1SS2  t>r  lss:t. 

(i.— Now.  as  a  nniltt-r  t»f  fai-t,  wt-rt'  yt)u  desirtniM  tif  st-llinn 
lliis  stliotiiu'r.  tlif  "Carolt-na?"  A.— Nti,  I  was  mtt.  I  btin{;lit 
lilt-  "I'alliHndt-r"  in  addititm  to  Iht'  "(.'arolt-na." 

Tin-  rtiniinissitnit-r  tin  tht-  part  t>f  tlu-  Tnitt-d  Htatt-s:— Mr. 
rt'tt-rs.  is  that  t-viilt-ntf  aoum  lo  ht-lp  ns  in  this  last'.  or  arc 
yon  p'ltinf;  it  in  ftir  anollii-r  case? 

Mr.  I't'tt-rs: — Winn  wt-  t-tant-  to  p-t  at  Iht-  valnt-  t)f  tht>8»' 
ships,  it  is  ainitist  nt>tt-ssary  that  wt-  shonid  Ititik  at  the  va!at> 
of  Httnii'  otlit-r  ships  lit-sidt-s  tht-  ont*  wt-  art-  tlt-alin);  with.  ()ni> 
nniy  say  that  lh(>  "I'artdt-na"  is  wtnth  |14.IMI(>  and  anotht-r 
|M-i'haps  |i;{.lltK».  and  wf  tan  ]ifrhaps  ni-t  at  her  t-.vatt  valni 
and  st-t>  whii'li  tif  tht-ni  is  tt-llinj;  tht-  truth. 

Tht-  Ctanniissittnt-r  ini  tht-  part  tif  tin-  T'nitt-d  Statf-s:— If 
yon  art'  jitiin;;  tt»  shtiw  tht-  salts  of  tithi-r  vt-sst-ls.  yon  tinnht  ti» 
provt'  their  tt>ndilit;n,  tonnajit-,  t-tc. 

Mr.  IV'tt-rs: — I  am  prt-part-tl  to  do  so. 

Tht'  Ctminiissitnit-r  tin  tht-  part  of  tht-  United  States: — Do 
yon  think  we  shonid  be  helped  liy  that? 

Mr.  I'eters: — If  yon  Itiok  at  the  ease  made  tin  both  sides  in 
this  jiartitiilar  nnitler  ytin  will  see  there  is  a  ^reat  divern- 
enee  tif  opinion  as  tti  what  these  sealing  vessels  are  wtirlh. 
We  wish  to  refer  ntit  only  tti  the  attual  sehoonera  in  dispute 
here,  but  also  lo  stinie  stlmoners  whit-h  are  not  in  dispute — 
btiih  Ameritau  sthooners  and  English  sthtioners — to  see 
what  they  are  wtirth. 

The  (Vimmissioner  on  the  jiart  of  the  United  States: — 1 
have  hatl  a  jjt  tid  deal  of  e.xperience  in  that  tlireetitin,  and  I 
never  found  any  advantage  to  ttime  tif  it,  exeept  tif  the  mtist 
general  cliaratter 

Mr.  I'tters: — My  expt-rienee  of  getting  evidence  here  is 
that  unless  yon  sift  evitlento  of  ;i  general  tharat-ter  very  cart;- 
fully  it  is  of  vt-ry  little  value.  One  man  says  a  sihodner  is 
wtirth  Sir.n  a  ttm  and  another  says  it  is  worlh  ^125,  and  when 
yt)u  etmie  to  ask  htiw  they  make  nji  that  ealenlatitin  you  will 
"find  they  are  all  ditTerent. 

Tht-  Conunissitiner  on  the  jiart  of  tht-  I'nited  States: — What 
do  ytiu  pitiiiose  now? 

Mr.  I'ett-rs: — I  proiit»se  to  show  that  there  are  ten  or  fifteen 
vessels,  and  that  those  vesst-ls  actually  tost  so  much  to  build. 
I  prtiptise  to  show  that  by  the  very  best  evident-e. 

The  Conimissitiner  on  the  part  tif  the  United  States: — I  do 
iKit  know  how  such  evidence  wtiuld  affect  Judge  King,  but 
I  do  not  think  it  would  affect  my  mind  in  the  slightest  The 
actual  sales  of  similar  v«-ssels  about  this  tnne  would  give 
some  stirt  of  a  clue. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  am  going  to  prove  the  actual  ssiles  and  the 
actual  cost  of  some  vessels.  I  do  ntit  st-e  that  I  can  give  any 
better  evitlence  than  that. 


'  'i^  <»w^ 


II 


i  ^  \  'i 


lO 


?.o 


30 


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60 


IP4 

Tilt'  ('oiiiintHKiiiiwi-  on  tin-  purl  nf  llii-  i'nilnl  Suiffn:— It  In 
vcrv  ilittlciiK  lo  iiiiikr  iiii.v  <iiiii|iiii'iM<iii,  Imtiiiimc  vcKSfls  «lllTci' 
Ml  iiiiu'li.  Voii  liiivc  ndt  ill  (liiN  cnHi-  wliiil  IIiIh  vrMwl  iietii- 
iill.v  niHt  ilH  ouiuTM  iiiiil  voii  ciiii  |ii-iiM'  till'  riiiiililiuii  it  wiih 
ill. 

Mr.  IN'IcrH:— I  «l«»  mil  know  what  cviilcncc  iiiiiy  lie  ^ivcn 
on  tilt'  oIIht  »i»l«'.  nor  ilo  I  pri<|ioH<'  lo  sav  llial  we  art'  boniiil 
li.v  what  a  man  luiiially  paiil  fot  ilir  vckhcI. 

The  t'omniiMNiom'r  on  ilii'  pari  of  Ilii-  rnit«'(1  Slati's: — Of 
i-oiH'Hi'  ,von  ari'  not. 

Mr.  IV'Ii'Ph: — If  he  mail"  a  >ioo<l  liaiKaiii  Ihi'if  is  no  rraHoii 
why  Ik>  Rhniihl  not  ;;<'t  the  lit'iii'lit  of  it.  Mow  laii  I  show 
lN>tt4>r  thr  viiliio  than  li.v  |!ivinf;  I'vidi  inc  as  to  what  vonni'In 
wiTc  Holil  for  at  that  tinu'? 

Tin-  Commissiorn'r  on  tln'  jiart  of  thi'  Tnitc*!  Ktad's — I 
mi'i-i'ly  MiiKjri'stt'd  this  willi  a  vii'w  of  saviiin  time. 

.Mr.  I'l'ti'is: — I  ilo  not  think  llicif  will  hi'  an.v  very  li'iifjlhy 
I'viili'iii-c  upon  this  point. 

Voiiihi'is  No.  1  to  No.  .'id  liii'd  as  K.xhiliil  ID  tilt..  "Car 
oli'iia"  I'aHc. 

(K.xamiiiation  liy  Mi.  I'l'li-rs  ('onliniii'd.) 

H. — At  that  tinii'  you  say  that  Rralinn  vi'SSfls  wiTf  in  il<' 
ma  ml?     A. — Yi-s. 

(2. — And  villi  will'  not  anxious  to  si'll  llu'  "('arolcna"?  A 
—No. 

Q. — I  was  ^oiiifj;  on  lo  ask  you  whi'llior  you  had  lioii^hl 
any  otlii-r  vi'ssi-ls  liisidi's  the  "Caroli'iia"  and  you  said  you 
had  lioii^rht  the  "I'ath.indi  r'  ?.\.  Vi's,  in  tlic  aulunin  of  IS.s.'i, 
I  lioii^ht  lii'r  at   Halifax. 

i^. — Do  you  ii'iiu'iiilicr  thi'  lonnapr  of  tlio  '•I'alhtimh'r'".' 
A. — (!(i  tons  ri'trisiry. 

ii. — You  ail"  spi'akiii};.  I  iindi'istand,  of  rc^iistcri'd  ton 
najjc?     A. — Always  of  r»'«risti'r('d  lonnajrc. 

Q. — Tell  nil'  in  round  fi;;iir»'s  what  liic  ••Pathtlndi'r'"  rosi 
yon  whon  you  landed  her  in  Virtoria?  A. — That  is  a  littlo 
ditliriilt  to  tril,  lii-faiisi'  tliiri'  is  llic  wi'ar  and  ti-ar  coiiiiiij; 
around  lii'ri',  which  is  hard  to  arrivi*  at. 

>. — What  did  voii  pav  for  hci'  in  Halifax?       A. — She  cost 


Q 


nil'  almiit  !ii4.rillf)  in  Halifax,  or  witliii.  a  fi'w  d<illars  of  it  one 
V. ay  or  th«'  othi-r,  I  am  not  smi'  from  iiicmory. 

(i. — You  had  to  liiiiifj  lii-r  aniunil  tln'  Horn?     .\. — Yes. 

<l. — How  inucli  did  it  rost  you  to  hriuft  Iwr  around?  A. — 
In  my  cxpi'i-ii'mi'  with  lii'r  and  oihi-r  vi'ssi'ls  that  I  lirou;;lit 
around  it  rost  sonu'wln'ro  in  I  he  m-igliliurhood  of  alioiit  if-.- 
Otto 

<). — So  that  tin*  "rathtindi'i"  would  stand  you  in  Viitoria 
ftWOIt?     A.— Somi'lhiii},'  in  that  viiinily. 

Q. — \Yliat  riass  of  vi  ssi'ls  do  you  buy  in  Halifax?  .\. — 
They  ari'  a  jjood  class  of  vcssids  which  I  hey  use  for  tishin^  on 
the  Itanks. 

{}. — It  paid  you  to  jio  to  Halifax  and  buy  a  vessel  there 
and  bi'ins  it  all  the  way  around  ("ajie  Horn?  .\. — Yes.  I 
think  so 

Q. — Hid  you  rci'cat  that  experiment?     A. — Yes. 

(i. — >Yliat  other  vessel  did  you  lirin};  around  the  Horn? 
A. — I  broiifjht  the  schooner  "Yiva"  in  1SS7. 

Q. — What  tonna.Te  was  she?     A. — About  02  tons. 

Q.— What  did  sIk'  cost  you  at  Halifax?     About  ^7.000. 

Q. — And  as  it  cost  von  ^2.IMI(I  to  brinp  her  around  she 
would  stand  you  $-0.(Mil)  in  >'iitoiia?  A. — Yes,  she  cost  mo 
that  in  round  flyrures,  but  I  cannot  say  exactly  as  there  is  a 
preat  deal  of  wear  and  tear  and  loso  of  gear  in  brin^jfinj;  a 
schooner  around. 


;fej 


lO 


(i.— I»i(l   vmi  ;r< 


105 

.(  (iir  "Miiv  Uriif"  ill  is!»:r; 


V.B. 


(^.—Wliiit  loiii;;i'.'<'  was  s 
iiliiMit  ns  tons 


ln'?     A.— Hill'  wiiM  iiiiili-r  <Ml  toiiH, 


<i 


I  liflicM-  \<Mi  liiiil  ii  iiiiiiltiiini'  "11  lici?     A.— \Vf 


liail 


II Iiiiiii.  Iiiil    I   liiivc  iiliiioMl   foiifot It'll   wlu'llicr  it    wiiH  a 


iiKirl^'anf  or  not. 

C^.  — I»itl    voii    Iniv    ii    V(H8( 


1       ciilitMl       llu-      "Olll."' 


Imiii^'IiI  iiii  in 


tri'<-Ni  ill  )iir  ill   1^!»i.  I  tliiiik 


ii, — \VI:.il  toiiiiiii:' 


4li<- 


-S(i   loliH. 


<i 


Noll   lioiiulil    !i    liiiir   iiilrH'Hi    ill   iu-i?     A  — t'linif  mul 


iiivsclf  l)oii);lil   ii   (|iiiiii«'r  iiilficsl    in   Ii'T  iit      llio     riil<'     ol 

♦r».r.o(i. 

1^,— l>o  von  liiiow  wliiil  «ilic  •OKI  oriKiniillv?  A. — Tin- 
piiilv  wlio  lion^'iil  lnr  oiiy;iiiiill,v  in  lliilifiix  t«ild  iin-  sIm'  roMt 
liiin  IKMMMi  liiiil  ilovii  licK- 

(^._l»i,l  von  liny  ilii-  •Marv  Tavlor"  in  ISIMI?  A.— Y«'m. 
lie  WHS  an  olil   xcsHi'j.  .'II  tons,  and   slit-  cokI   altoiil   |4,IMMI. 


SI 


We  lioii;;lit  liiT  al  a  |irival(>  sale 

(i.  — Who  illd    VOII   liii.v    her  Iroin?     A. — W'v     hoiii^ht      luT 
20       fnnii   Mr.   Warren. 

(y — Warron.  I  Ih'Mcvc  had  lo  sell  al  that  (iiiu-?  A. —  i 
niidcrstood  so. 

l}. — IHd  VOII  ;liiii<{  von  had  a  K""*'  haruain  on  that  Hlii|i? 
.\. — Sin-  was  an  old  vcssfl,  and  I  jjavc  pi-rliaps  all  she  was 
worth. 

(}. — >'oii  sav  VOII  IK  ver  saw   the  "raroli-na"  after  hIk-  left 
the  port  of  Xictoria  in  \ssv,.     IMd  von  p-t  a  Ittlcr  from  tln' 
I'liitrd  States  marshal  at   Alaska   with  re;;ard  to  that  ship" 
A.— Yes. 
•5°  Q — Wes  there  an  enelosnre  in  that   letter?       A. — Yes. 

(j. — Tin-  letter  and  eiulosiire  art-  aw  follows: 

"Disfrict  of  Alaska. 
"I*    S.   Marshal's  Ofl.ee.   Silka.   Xoveinhei'.   1st.    1SSH. 
"Jlessrs.  Miinsie  &  Co.,  X'ietoria.   M.  <". 

"tieiitleinen: — I  have  the  honor  to  iiiftiriii  you  that  I  have 
received  from  I  he  lloiionraltle  Attorney-iieiieral  of  the 
I'liited  Slates,  orders  to  release  to  tlie  ri;;litfnl  owners  the 
40  sehooiier  M'aroleiia,'  !iei  tackh',  ajipaiel  and  fiiniitiire,  as  she 
now  lies  in  tlie  harlior  at  IMinalaska.  in  the  district  «if  Alas- 
ka. Tlh-  order  on  the  l>e|>iily  ('(diector  of  ('iistoiiis  at 
Oiiiial.iska   to  deliver  to  yon   the  property  is     herewith     en- 


closed.       \'erv   lesperlfully, 


•MARTOX  ATKINS. 

"V.  S.  Marshal. 
"District  of  Alaska. 


'•r.  S.   Marshal's  (>flic(>.  Sitka.  November  1st.   ISSS. 
"V..  II.  Walil.  Ks<|..  r.  S.  DejMity  Collector  of  CnHtoms.  Oiiii 
aiaska.  .Maska : 
'•Sir: — Yon  are  heiLhy  authorized  and  directed  to  deliver 
to  the  ri;;litfnl  owners,  Messrs.  Miinsie  &  Co..  of  Yictoria.  H. 
C..  the  seized   schooner  "Carolena."   of   Yictoria.   H.   C..   her 
tackle,  apparel  and  furniture,  as  she  now  lies  in  the  harbor 

"BARTON  ATKINS. 

"C.  S.  Marshal." 


of  Oiinalaska. 


Cio  You  received  this  letter  and  that  enclosure?     .\. — Yes. 

Q. — You  received  that   in  the  eiivelojie  which  I  now  show 


von : 


-Yea. 


Letter,  enclosure  and  onv«dope  filed  as  iJxhibit  No.  11  fl. 
B..  "Carolena"  case. 

(i.— Yon  received  tliein  in  ISSS?       A.— Yes. 
Q. —  \nd  it   was  ihe  first  commiinicalion  you  had  witli  re- 
iiiwd  to  your  vessel?       A.--Ye9. 


W  "▼▼^ 


106 

Mr.  hifkiiiNoii:— TIm-  |mii-II<'h  wrw  tii>iill)><l  of  tin-  tmlfi-  for 
rfh>am>  in  \hh7,  nolwilliHlaiHliiiK  iiiivlliiii);  llit>  .MiuhIiiiI  «I<h>m 
now. 

Mr  I'ctfiH:— TliiH  Im  (lii>  (liHl  noiitli'iiiiiin  Mm-  owntr  liiitl 
from  tilt'  rnitnl  HtnlfH  iiiitlinrilii-H. 

(Kxniiiiniilion   l>y   Mr.   I'ctcrH  <'«inliiiiH-<1,) 

(2. — Tliiil  JH  IIh*  Hr-Ht  nitMcc  yon,  yourHrIf,  ]M'rMon)illy,  (jot 
from  tli*>  I'nitt'tl  Httilcb  iiutliorith'H  tliiit.  you  would  ;;<■(  your 
Hliip  l»iirk?      A. — V«'H. 

(}. — Tliiif   w«s  llic  l!rH(  iiihI  only  inlimnlion?       A.— V'H. 

And  llio  further  oxaminiiiiou  of  Hit'  witnt-HH  wuh  iidjoitrn"(1 
until  tlu'  iM'Xt  xitliuK  of  (III-  t'onimiNHioncrs. 

TIm-  rommiHMioni'rH  I  lien  roKo. 


30 


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Oommissionerg  under  the  Oonvention  of  February  8,  1806,  between 
Oreat  Britain  and  the  United  States  of  America. 

Chambers  of  the  LegislatiTe  AsBembly, 

At  Victoria,  December  3, 1896. 

At  10..tO  n.m.  tlio  CnniniiHgioncrH  took  their  Hentn 

Mr.  I'ctrrs: — I  have  a  Htatenient  matio  up  uh  to  the  vouch- 
i'X'H  ii'ivvii  in  <>viden<-f  yi-Htcrdiiy,  putlin^  them  under  neparate 
headN  and  adding  up  the  I"  I  of  tiiem.  I  nhall  prexent  that 
Htat«'ment  to  tlie  rommiH.'-     ki'm  during  th>'  day. 

The  CommiMHimier  on  the  part  of  the  Tnited  HtateH: — Has 
eouuHel  for  the  I'nited  StateH  seen  tliein? 

Mr.  DifkinHim: — Yen  your  Honour,  I  liave  seen  them.  ' 

The  CommiHHioner  on  tiie  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — Are 
there  any  of  (hone  which  you  wIkIi  to  fjo  in  as  evidence? 

)(r.  Dickinson: — .Ml  of  them,  and  I  should  think  f(»r  tlio 
(>nlif!;htenment  of  tlie  ('oniniissi<tnris  they  would  have  to  be 
printed.  The  regular  printing  need  not  he  interfered  witli, 
lint  tliey  <-an  l)e  printed  iit  any  time  in  the  a|>pendi.\. 

William  Munsie. — The  examination  of  tliis  witness  in  tlie 
case  of  Olaim  Xo.  1,  Tlie  "t.'arolena,"  was  continued. 

Exa;  ined  liy  Mr.  I'eters: — Q. — Mr.  Munsie,  I  wish  to  call 
your  attentiiui  to  Voucher  N(».  :{.  from  W.  I'.  Sayward.  which 
was  produced  yesterday.  That  voui-her  contains  some  charjies 
for  shin^iles  supplied  apparently  to  the  "('aroh'na,''  and  1 
want  you  to  explain  to  the  Conimissitmers  how  shingles  canu> 
to  be  used  in  the  outtit  of  the  scho<m»  r.^  A. — It  appears  the 
ballast  used  is  what  we  call  beach  ^i;ravel,  .snd  the  sjravel  was 
P'tting  down  into  her  ]Mimps.  We  took  the  ballast  Out  and 
we  found  the  seams  in  the  ceilini,  (juite  open,  iMid  instead  of 
nsiuf;  oakum  to  calk  it  they  drove  shinp;les  in.  That  is  what 
the  captain  told  me  the  sliin(;les  were  for. 

(J. — I  wish  to  «all  the  attention  of  the  court  to  that,  be 
cause  it  seenu-d  to  be  an  item  which  wanted  explanation. 

(To  witness. — You  pive  some  evidence  yesterday,  Mr. 
Munsie,  with  repard  to  the  different  suj)|»lies  you  had  jjiv<'n 
to  this  vessel.  I  do  not  know  whetln'r  you  clearly  made 
yourself  understood  as  t(»  lutw  lonjj  you  considered  you  were 
supplying;  her  for?      A. — About  five  months. 

Q. — Your  idea  was  that  yoti  would  put  in  provisions  enough 


107 


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(lit'ir  naiiK'M 
H.  Mci^iiiia 


for  iilioiit  Uv<'  iiioiilliH.      A.— AlMtiil  llv»'  iiioiitliH.      Hlie  hail  a 
NMinlli-i'  rrcw  ill  n)iii|iai'iNoii  )ii  lai-);cr  vchwIh,  aiiil  niiiHiM|iH-iil 
l,v  hIk*  iliil  not  iiM|iiir<>  i|uil<>  no  iiiikIi  Htipplii'H,  anil  tli<>  raptaiu 
iM-iiij;  pniviili'il  Willi  HiiiiH-  fiiiiilH,  if  111*  dill  run  kIioiI  Iu>  wiih 
prt'pai'i'il  to  ri'pli'iiiKli. 

(i— Now  Willi  rcjjaril  »o  llic  cn'w  tlial  you  liail  on  lioaril 
lliiit  nliip,  you  liiivi'  alri-aily  ili'siiilu'il  tliat  tlx-y  wi'i'i'  all  wliili- 
!iicn,  anil  iiial  Ik  lorrt-it.  Im  il  nol?      A. — That  ix  ioitimI. 

Q. — ran  you  n\\r  iiii'  Ihc  iiinn-H  of  Ihi'  iTt-w?      I  liavi'  taki'ii 
a  iiiilf.  anil  I  hci>  fioin  th;'  1  .!-iiiorani1uiii  that 
wi-i-i*  I'Dlsfortl,  K'llwai'il  Klii*  IiIn,  Diipont  ami  A. 
hay. 

Q. — Tlii'Hi'  were  Ihi-  four  hiinli'i-N?  A. — Yi'b. 

(i. — Wi'ic  IhcHf  iiii'n  of  i>xpi'i'i)'nri-,  or  wire  thry  in*>xpi>ri 
fiHcd  nii'ii'.'      A. — Wi'ii,  il   wan  in  thi'  rarih-r  Hlajji-M  of  the 
K.'iliiif;  liinlory.  anil  Ihi'V  wi-ri-  all  iiii-n  of  i-xpcrii'iiri-  in  IIiok' 
ilavH. 

t^. — Ah  a  niatti-r  of  fad.  in  tin-  year  \HHii  did  you  pay  your 
raplain  and  your  rrcw  llu-ir  wa^fR?  A. — I  imid  the  capl.tn 
rioinc  advaiii-fN  luily.  Tin*  niali'  and  rrcw  were  paid  up  in 
full  lo  Ihc  time  tlicy  arrived  in  Victoria. 

Q. —  .\m  a  mailer  of  fad  liavc  you  made  up  a  Ntateinent  iik 
lo  liow  niucli  you  adiially  paid  Ihe  rrcw?     A. — Alioat  ^\, 
ill  III. 

(i.— The  amount  is  exadly  itsl.i)02.1'2?     .\.~\  believe  ho. 

(i. — Vou  liavc  made  tlial  up  from  vour  booli  I  lM>licve?     A. 

— YCH. 

li. — Is  thai  your  original  liooli  showing;  what  yoii  paid  to 
the  crew?     A. — That  is  the  original  book. 

Mr.  Peters: — This  bool;  is  open  for  the  examination  of  my 
learned  friend,  but  we  liave  taken  tlie  tiKurcH  from  that  book, 
and  tile  amount  exactly  |iaid  according  to  it  was  |!1,(M)2.22. 

Tile  rommissioner  on  Ihe  jiart  of  the  Tnited  States: — I 
would  like  you  lo  give  details  of  that  now.  and  I  would  like 
to  know  wliether  tlicy  were  paid  l>y  the  voyage,  or  by  tlio 
month,  or  how? 

Mr.  reters:— I  shall  do  that. 

(To  witness)  t^.— fan  you  tell  us  from  that  l.ook  how  much 
''aittain  <»<rilvie  was  jiaid  outside  of  that  |!r>00  which  ymi  ad 
vanicd  him?     A.-  He  had  about  f«K»  in  advance. 

Mr.  Dickinsiui:—  Hesides  tlic  |r>00? 

Witness: — It  was  about  (filjO. 

Uy  Mr.  Peters): 

(i.— The  e.\act  amoiiiil  I  have  liore  is  f2r>ll.70?  A.— Yi's, 
I  sec  I  here  is  70  cents  for  tobacco. 

Q.— In  what  way  was  die  master  jiaid?  A. — Tie  was  get- 
ting .•»;.f|0  j»er  monlli. 

(2.— And  nothing  at  all  for  his  skins?  A.— \othing  for 
his  skins. 

Q— ^Vliat  wages  do  you  allow  him  in  your  book?  A.—' 
see  him  credited  here  willi  *r>0  per  month  up  to  the  iird  of 
.August. 

(i.— From  whit  dale'  A.— From  March;  from  Februarv 
in  fact.  I  see  he  was  cicdiled  on  March  3rd  with  ijSol).  anil 
that  first  payment   was  for  February. 

Q- — Tl'at  is  when  the  season  began?       A. — Yes. 

Q.— Now  Willi  resrard  to  .lames  Wake,  the  mate,  I  have 
here  that  lu>  was  paid  ^2^7.50.  Is  that  right  bv  vour  book? 
A.— There  appears  to  be  50  cents  difference,  it'  was  I  think 
?2S7. 

(i.— What  was  the  lay  of  the  mate?  A.— The  mate  had 
#40  a  month  jind  he  was  to  get  $\  per  skin  for  what  he 
caught  in  Ihe  ship's  boat. 


'''^!  JI|««V 


10 


20 


30 


40 


■  < 


50 


108 

Q. — The  HliipV  boiit  siinu'liiiii'H  ffocpi  s(  aliiit;?  A. —  Yes,  il  is 
callfd  tin*  iiiiitc'M  lioat 

Q. — DdCN  it  no  hunting  )i»  n  iiHiial  lliiiif,'".'     A. — Yt-s. 

Q. —  Does  it  iiiiiit  iis  often  aw  (lie  otlu-r  lioats'.'  A. — It  }r»n's 
out  HiNiliii^. 

ii. — In  tiiis  year  did  tlu'  mate's  lioal  no  out  sealing?  A. — 
Tlie  iiiat(>'s  boat  does  not  ^o  out  until  tlie  otiier  Ixiats  luive 
left  tlie  vessel,  it  is  simply  a  sort  of  pit  k  up  as  we  call  it.  and 
not  a  i-e;j;ular  sealing  lioat. 

<}. — Ah  an  addition  to  liis  waires,  the  mate  j^ets  !|fl  per  sliin 
for  all  the  skins  cauuht  on  that  lioat?     A. — S'es. 

Q. — That  boat  <at(lies  less,  and  in  ISM(»  it  eaujfht  less  than 
any  other  boat  on  tiie  ship'.'  A.— Yes.  I  would  like  to  say 
riiflit  here  that  the  mate  liad  been  ill  .ind  did  not  take  any 
Ideals  at  all  in  that   boat  that   year. 

Mr.  Miekinson: — I  woulil  »vish,  if  Mr.  I'eters  would  let  the 
witness  testify  just  a  little  more  as  to  this  particular  time  of 
ISSC.     \V(.  should  contine  it  to  this  time  for  the  present. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  am  leferriuf;  to  this  particular  yi-ar.  and 
we  hav«'  the  fact  that  in  that  jiarticular  year  the  mates  boat 
eauRlit  no  seals. 

'To  the  witness) — Is  that  so?  .\. — That  is  what  lie  re- 
{M)rted  to  me  when  lie  arrived  here. 

Q. — \Yhat  was  hunter  .loaepli  Dupont  paid?  A. — |il.ri(l 
per  skin. 

(<. — I  see  he  was  actually  paid  $244.r)l».  Is  that  correct? 
A. — They  are  not  added  up  in  this  book,  but  1  believe  that 
anionut  is  correct.  )le  had  l(i:{  skins  according?  to  his  own 
report  on  liis  r«'turning. 

Q. — Did  that  include  his  share  of  the  skins  tliat  had  been 


seized ", 


A.— Yes. 


ii. — Did  it  also  include  tlu'  skins  caught  before  tlu'y  en 
tered  the  Hehriuf;  Sea?  A. — There  were  no  skins  caught 
before  they  entered  Itehring  Sea,  ac<-ording  to  their  report 
to  me  when  they  came  home. 

y. — So  that  is  just  his  share  of  the  skins  caught  in  Uelir- 
ing  Sea?      A. — Yes,  it  is  for  1(J:{  skins. 

Q.— >Yhat   did    H.    Mc<"onahay   get?       A.— 1    think   he  got 
$2(>ll.ri(l.       It  was  for  17."»  skins. 

Q. — Was  he  on  the  same  lay  as  DuitonI?       A. — ^Yes. 

Q. — These  men  got  no  wages,  but  sim|>ly  got   their  lay  on 


1h*>  skins 'i 


A.— That  is  all. 


Q.— I  have  it  here  that  Kdward  Shields  got  #2!tl ;  is  that 
correct?  A.— Edward  Shields  had  !ii!2!ll  for  1!>4  skins.  lie 
was  on  the  s;ime  lay  as  the  others. 

Q._I  see  thar  John  Cotsford  got  #1.'.U  ;  is  that  correct?  .\. 
— Yes,  f'j;U  for  l.")4  ^kins.       lie  was  on  the  same  lay. 

Q. — \ow,  those  are  all  the  hunters  on  board?       .\. — Th 


ose 


are 


all. 


I   would  mention  here  that   there  may  be  a  little 


difference  as  to  the  number  of  skins  on  board  the  vessel,  and 
the  number  set  out  here,  but  we  do  not  jiay  for  gray  juijis; 
they  w<Te  thrown  in  gratuitously  to  the  vessel. 

Q. — (Sray  pups  are  seals  of  what  age 
gray  pup  when  it  is  about  a  year  o 


-It  is  called  a 


Id. 


Q. — And  with  regard  to  these  you  state  that   the  men  get 


Cx)       nothing?       A.— No,  they  were  given  to  the  vt 


•Is. 


Q. — So  far  as  Mehring  Sea  is  concerned,  are  there  any  < 


•011- 


siderable  quantity  of  gray  pups  got  in  that  sea?  .\. — A 
\ery  siuiill  percentage.  \Ye  icckon  from  one  to  two  jter 
cent.,  becniise  it  varies,  and  some  years  there  would  be  more 
than  others. 

Q.— >Vhere  are  the  majorilv  of  the  gray  i>ui)  seals  caught? 
A. — On  the  Palifornia  and  \'aiicouver  coasts. 

Q, — And  for  some  teason  or  another  they  are  not  caught 
lu  the  Itehring  Sea  to  any  great  extent?       .\.— \o. 


:| 


109 


-«ii.riti 


it?  A. 


■I 


30 


(^. — Now,  ;is  i('}{aids  I  he  sciiiiicii,  h-l  us  (aki-  I).  ]{iim8«-II. 
Is  lliis  book  conccl  in  saviji^'  lliat  Ik-  rctrivtMl  |(!L'?  A. — I 
liclicvr  so. 

(^. — Tell  us  how  tin-  scaiiiiii  were  liircd?  A. — Tlu'.v  w«-r«» 
]iai(l  on  ilic  lav.  a  ptucnla};!'  of  wlial  skins  would  1m'  worth 
lific  in  Xicioiia.  1  Ix-lii'vc  tlitir  lav  was  soni«'wln'r»'  about 
lilt-  ri.~)ili  lav  or  ih<-  (i'Mli.       lint   1  am  not  i|nili'  sui-c  now. 

(<V— What  dots  that  nifan?  A.— Well,  it  would  !»«'  0110 
skin  in  .i."i.  Imii  in  lliosc  da.vs  we  made  cnir  own  |»rir*'S.  us  it 
well'.  For  inst.incc,  if  ilic  skins  wvvf  worth  $~  we  would  try 
to  niakr  a  little,  and  allow  llxin  i;n  a  valuati<ui  of  #(>  or 
!|iti..")((.  That  would  allow   us  a  little  to  cover  exjienses. 

(^. —  .\,,w  loniiny;  down  to  iliis  particular  vear  of  iss<i.  I 
><■■■  ihat  von  paid  Kus.-sell  ftij?  .\.— 1  see  he  is  cit-ilited 
lieve  "hv  skins,  !|f77."  hut  I  paid  liiin  ftil'. 

(j. — So  far  as  liussell  is  concerned,  you  <lid  nut  iiuitc  pay 
liini  all  thai  was  due?  A. — There  is  a  balance  still  due  'dm 
(if  the  ditTei'Mice  between  $*i'2  and  *77. 

t^  I  h.ive  T.  .Mcl.arty  down  here  as  iji'ttin^'  iJSI  ?  A. — 
He  has  been  over  |)Mid.  bec.Mise  i^'l  was  his  lay  also. 

ii. —  lie  was  on  I  he  same  lay  as  the  others?       A. — V«'h. 

(^.--1  have  William  Knox  down  here  as  having  reoeivod 
itTt:',.       Hew  much  was  coming  to  him?      A. — #77. 

(i.--So  that  he  was  not  paid  in  full?  A. — Not  in  full.  The 
dilVerence  between  $T>:',  anil  #77  is  still  due  him. 


40 


*» 


t^.-'— I  have  .lames  .Mun};er  down  here  as  having  been  paid 
t'^.'  A. — Thi-re  is  a  balance  due  him  of  the  difference  be- 
IWMii  ^i4(l  and  #77.  1  will  say  there  is  an  apparent  bahuw-e 
due  them,  yet  there  is  not.  I  will  explain  that.  When  they 
came  home  I  (old  him  1  was  not  responsible  for  their  wap'H 
after  the  time  of  the  seizure.  Tliey  said  they  were  destitute 
and  that  if  1  paid  them  up.  either  in  full  or  in  part,  they  would 


tfive  me  an  assifrnmeiil   of  their  wa; 


I   made  the  best 


ter'ir.'.i«  I  could  with  each  of  iln-m.  and  these  are  the  aiuountH 
1  paid  them,  and  1  took  an  assii;iiinent  of  their  wa^res 

t^. — So  far  as  this  claim  is  concerned,  you  stand  in  thoir 
shoes?       .\. — Fxat'tly. 

ii. — \  oil  il.iiiued  you  wore  not  liable  to  pay  them  after  tho 


seizure, 


<y — Have  you  jrot    these  assi^nnienls;  were 


th 


ev  in  writ- 


iiijr: 


Tl 


ley  were  in  wnlin<;. 


ty — Have  you  y;ot    them?     .\. —  1   have  not. 
(i.— Where  are  lh<y?       .\.— It  appears  they  wont  to  Otta- 
ith  some  other  papers,  and  from  there  to  Washini;ion 

tuch- 

Wil 


durin<r  the  time  raptain  Warren  was  there,  and  these  vi 
ers  that  are  duplicates  or  some  of  them  also  went  to  Otia 
and 


ere  ne\or  leiuined.       That    is  one  reason,   I   presume) 


that   I  had  to  jjct  some  diiplicati'  voucliei 


all 

was  at  Washinirtoii  he  had  them  there  also, 


Th 


l•her^ 


went  to  (Mtawa.  and  I  believe  that  wlien  <"aptaiu  Warren 


t^. —  N Oil  have  made  eni|uiries  to  try  and  fret  them?      A. I 

have  niMde  eii.iuiries.  aiitl  I  think  that  1  have  a  copy  of  a 
letter  firm  the  ih'partfiienl  in  reference  to  them,  in  which 
they  }i\\i'  about  the  amount  of  wa}ii's.  and  they  must  have 
ffot  them  from  the  assiirnmeiits.  because  there  was  no  othet 
way  to  -Hi  them.  That  is  the  explanation  whv  1  have  not 
};ot  the  assij:ninents. 


1^.— I  see  here  that  Walter  Tennv 


6  J     Wi 


s  over  pan 


Tl: 


son  was  paid  |!t.'{.  .\. — He 


e  amount  coming:  to  him  was  ?77.  an<l  I 


actually  paid  him  .«!i:t 

H. — How  did   you   come   to  overpay  so 
A. — W"||,  some  of  them  had  advance 
destitute,  and  had  no  means  of  I'ett 


)f  th 


est'  nioui 


res()onsible  for  the  board  of  some  of  thi 


nces  and  others  were  renlly 
jjettini;  alon>r.       I  liad  to  pro 


ni. 


terms  I   could   with   IIm'iu  and  took  the  assij; 


I  made  the  best 


.Miment.  not   ex- 


pecting' the  delay  in  settlement  would  be  so  hmp.  or  I  never 
should  have  do.ie  it.  (1  was  merely  to  assist  thoin  in  the 
nieanlinie. 


!,■  j-WTiw^ 


no 


Mr.  l'('(«'r«:— Willi  remind  to  llic  viMichcrs  iir(Hlii«c«l  vos- 
ti'i'day,  I  liavt'  li.ul  lliom  tolallcd  iiji.  and  for  the  convciiii'Uct' 
of  tlu>  <'oinniissiont  rs  I  will  jnit  tlu-iii  in.  They  are  divided 
luider  different  heads,  and  are  as  follows: 

cm  fit,    other    than    jaovisions,    j,'nns    and 

anininuition    f  '2,T2\M'i 

Provisions    il'itUS 

(inns  and  anunnnition    O*)').!)! 

Snndries    1.7lJ;{.7- 

Value  of  selKioner    4,(I(MI.(»(( 


That  IS  outside  of  these  wajies. 


flll,llll()..~>U 


20 


3« 


'I 


40 


SO 


i     J 


ni 


Q. — Now,  .Mr.  Mnnsie,  I  want  to  coini'  to  anotlier  matter. 
In  ISStJ  \-ou  had  another  sealing  vessel.  1  believe?     A. — Ves. 

(i.— Tl'i.it  was  the  "I'athtinder."     A.— V(s. 

(2. — Slu'  hunted  in  Itehriu}!  sea?     A. — Yes. 

(2. — Can  v<»n  tell  nie  the  number  of  boats  or  eanoes  thai 
the  "rathtliider"  had?     A.— She  had  five  boats. 

<2. — Had  she  any  canoes?     A. — Xo  canoes. 

i}. — Was  she  manned  by  white  men?     A. — White  men. 

(i.  — Xo  Indians?     A. — Xo  Indians. 

Q. — In  these  5  boats  do  you  include  tlip  ship's  boat,  or  had 
she  tive  ))oats  besides  the  ship's  boat?  A. — She  had  Hv<i 
rejiular  sealing  boats. 

H. — And  a  ship's  1)oat  too  I  understand?  A. — I  do  not  re- 
m«'mber  whetht-r  that  ye.ir  she  had  a  ship's  boat  or  not. 

(i. — She  had  tive  remilar  sealing  boats,  with  refrular  hunt- 
ers for  each?       A. — Itegular  hunters  for  «'ach. 

ii. — How  do  the  hunters  that  you  had  on  the  "rathlinder" 
compare  with  the  hunters  that  you  had  on  tlie  "t'arolena" 
as  re}jards  cajiability?  A. — They  were  about  the  same  class 
of  hunters  i.}. — The  'Pathtinder"  I  believe  was  not  int«'r- 
fered  with  in  ISSO?     A. — She  was  in  a  way. 

(i. —  Hut  she  was  not  aitually  interfered  with?  A. — She 
left  the  sea  voluiiiarily  (ui  ac-count  of  hearing;  of  the  sei/.ures. 

1^. — Do  you  know  when  she  left  the  sea?  A. — Tlu>  cap- 
tain tells  me  about  the  fourtli  of  Au<;ust. 

(i. —  .\s  a  matter  of  fact  how  many  seal  skins  did  the 
"I'athtinder"  briufj  home  that  year?     A. — 1,70(5. 

Q. — .\nd  she  !iad  lished  until  the  4th  of  Autfust,  so  far  as 


vou  understand? 


-V. 


(}. — Who  was  the  cajitain  of  the  "rathtindei' 


-Wi! 


I  hen 
his  I 


lame  wa« 


iiam  O'Learv. 

Q.— Is  William  O'I.eary  heie?     A.— He  i 

(.y — .\nd  wlio  was  her  mate?     .\. —  I  beli 
l»!ividson,  but  I  am  not  positive. 

(, — Xow  the  "I'athtinder"  l»rouj;ht  home  1.7tt<»  skins,  as 
you  understand,  caujrht  up  to  the  1th  of  .\ugust?  .\. — Ves, 
that  is  the  information  I  received  from  the  captain. 


(^— At  that  time 


-Am]  since  that. 


()— Did  you  jret  these  skins?     A. —  He  delivered  to  me  1  - 
7<t(i  skins. 

(i.— There  is  no  doiibt  ab(nit  that?     A.— Xo  doubt. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  at  what  date  the  "I'athtinder"  sail 
ed  in  that  year  on  that  voyajxe?  .\.— I  cannot  say  positively 
60  the  day  of  her  clearance.  That  was  her  tirst  year  here.  She 
came  around  from  Halifax.  I  do  not  remember  when  sli" 
cleai'ed  fr(un  here,  but  she  did  not  do  any  sealinj;  on  tlie 
coast  and  went  direct  to  the  Itehriuft  sea.  She  arrived  in  the 
sea  ahead  of  the  seals  as  I  was  informed  by  the  captain,  and 
I  do  not  think  she  <.rot  any  seals  until  .luly. 

Q. — So  that   as  fai"  as  you  understand,     what      seals     tho 
"I'athtinder"  ^'ol  were  cau>rht  in  r.ehiiuf;  sea?     \. — Ves. 

(i. — Hid  you  disjtose  of  those  seal  skins  that  year,  and  at 


IK 


lO 


zo 


30 


40 


10 


6o 


wliii)  i»ii<c?     A.— Vi's,  I  sold  tlu'iii  for  $7  per  skin  ;i«  tlicy 

I'M  II. 

(2. — Did  v(,n  sfll  (lu'in  iu  the  siiiniin'i'  or  in  the  fall  of 
ISSfi?  A.— I  sold  tliein  on  the  arrival  of  the  "I'nthtiuder"' 
that  same  year. 

Q.— Who  did  von  wll  Mu-in  to?  A.— I  sold  them  to  .loHeph 
r.oscowitz,  wlu)  is  eiifjajti'd  in  the  biisineHN  of  buying  furs. 

(i. — And  you  actually  received  for  them  f7  per  skiu?  A. 
— Yes.  !?T  per  skin. 

1^.— If  you  had  received  the  catch  of  the  "raroleiia"  could 
you  liavc'sold  them  at  the  Hame  price?  A. — Well,  I  could 
not  swear  tliat. 

ii. — What  is  your  opinion,  is  there  any  reas<»ii  why  you 
.should  not?     A.— There  is  no  reason  why  I  slunild  u<»t. 

The  Conmiissioiier  on  the  jiart  of  Her  Majesty: — ll»»w 
many  skins  could  the  "Carolcna"  stow  away?  A.— About 
7.000. 

(lly  yU:  Peters:) 

(). — There  would  be  no  trouble  in  stowinjj;  the  skins?  A. — 
None. 

(I. —  If  you  had  the  "Caroleiia"  tilled  up  with  skins,  you 
cmild  stop  sealMifi,  I  imagine?    .V. — Yes. 

(i. — Now.  I  want  to  ask  you  airaiu,  did  you  continue  the 
sealing  business  in  the  year  1S,S7?     A.— Yes. 

Q. — If  you  had  had  the  "Caroleiur'  was  it  your  intention  to 
Kcal  with  her  that  ne.xt  year,  18S7?     A. — It  was. 

Q. — Where  would  \ou  have  sent  her?  A. — 1  would  have 
^ent  h(>r  on  the  coast  aud  to  llehring  Sea. 

Mr.  l>ickins(Ui: — Your  Honours,  I  desire  merely  to  «tate 
that  llie  last  (piestion  is  tlie  seouid  steji  taken  in  going  into 
llie  ])robable  catch  of  "<'aroleiia"  in  1SS7  and  in  succeeding 
years.  Now.  of  course,  from  the  declaration  in  the  chiims, 
.iiid  from  thes"  (juestions,  it  is  apjiareiit  that  my  learned 
friends  are  about  to  itursue  proof,  t«'iiding  to  show  the  prob- 
able catch  of  tlie  "riiiolena"  for  the  m-xt  year,  1SS7.  That 
ipiestion  will  doiibtle.-'S  come  ui»,  as  ai>j>ears  by  the  claims 
heretofore  presented,  ami  by  the  testimony,  or  that  which 
was  called  testimony,  before  the  Paris  Tribunal.  I  reft>r  to 
the  <|uestioii  of  future  ju'ofits.  We  are  prepared  to  argue 
that  <|uestion  now,  or  of  course  take  the  direction  of  the 
•  "ommissioners  as  to  whethei-  they  will  receive  that  class  of 
testimony  now.  and  listen  to  the  argument  later.  We  are 
])repared  to  show  your  TTouours  beyond  cpiestion  that  this 
(lass  of  damages  cannot  be  allowed,  and  we  will  show  that 
both  by  the  decisitni  of  the  courts  and  by  the  decision  of  in- 
ternational Tribunals  of  .\rbitraliou.  We  wimi»ly  wish  a 
suggestion  of  tilt"  tNuiimissioners  as  to  when  they  would  like 
to  hear  us  upon  the  •question. 

The  t'ommissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — For 
my  own  jiart  '  had  su]>](osed  it  was  understood  between 
counsel  that  these  great  questi(uis  were  to  bo  argued  at  the 
close  of  all  the  testimony. 

-Mr.  Dickinson — Vi-ry  well.  I  simply  wish  to  be  understood 
as  not  allowing  this  lestiiiKuiy  to  go  in  apparently  by  our 
'•oiiseiit.  I  interposed  this  statement  so  that  the  record  will 
show  that  it  goes  in  against  our  objection,  and  that  we  shall 
in  this  case  and  in  all  cases  contend  that  future  profits  in  any 
ca.se  cannot  be  (onsidered  as  a  i>roper  measure  of  damages, 
notably  and  especiallv  in  cases  wlieri'  the  seizure  resulted 
in  a  total  loss  to  the  owner. 

Mr.  Petc'i's: — So  far  as  we  are  concerned,  it  appears  to  us 
iliat  it  would  be  almost  ini]K)ssible  to  argii(>  this  ipiesti<Mi  at 
this  time,     My  uiiderstatuling  was.  and  I  think  the  Conimis- 


w 


•t^T^^ 


112 


sioiK'i's  iilso  iiiKlci'slootl  i|.  tliiil  tlicsc  (jiK-slidiis  slidiiltl  be 
iirj^ut'd  ill  (he  end,  wlun  tlif  iiialloi'  ciin  be  indpcrlv  aiul 
clciirly  jiul  torwiinl  in  lln'  sliiijic  of  :i  wiidcii  ar^iiiiifiil. 
This  (|n«'sti(tii  which  is  now  rniscd  by  my  Icarni'd  frii-nd  is 
one.  (if  coiirsf.  »vhicl>  we  liavc  conii'  ht-rc  pi'cparcd  lo  meet, 
an<l  it  will  \>v  a  vciy  lar>:f  i|U('stion  in  ihis  case.  1  may  also 
point  out  that  in  (he  scvcial  cases  whicli  come  u]),  tlic  cir- 
cumstances of  eacii  .f  ilicm,  with  re<:ard  to  this  ])articular 
matter  will  be  dilfei'-nt.  It  would  be  almost  impussible  for 
lo  the  ('(unmission  al  this  time,  witlioui  knowledp'  of  the  e\  i 
denc«'.   and    without    havinj;    the   f.icis    laid   before   them,    to 


20 


conu'  to  anv  cuiiclusion   which   would   be  satisfactory. 


Mv 


leained  friend  tenders  an  objection  to  this  testinnmy,  and  fit 
course  it  will  be  undcistood  all  tliroiij;li  that  he  enters  that 
(d)jectii)U. 

Mr  Dickinson: — And  takiii}:  as  little  time  abotit  it  as  pos- 
sible. 

Mr.  Peters :—\'eiy  well. 

The  ("ommissioner  (ui  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States:  — You 
hav«'  chiimed  foi'  this  estimated  catch  in  1SS7? 


Mr.  I'etcis: — It  is  foinially  put  foiwaiil  in  the  claim. 

Ml"   IMckinson: — It  is  not  so  specilied  in  the  claim,  but  it  is 
|)iobably  included  in  the  ueiieral  altiiination  of  daniai^es. 

Mr.  I'eters: — If  my  leained  frii  nd  would  excuse  nu',  it  is 
siuH'ially  mentioned  in  the  claim.  Parajiraph  5  sets  cml  •  "Uv 
50  reason  of  the  premises  fuither  iirosecution  of  the  said  sealing; 
voyajjte  durinj;  the  year  l>'S(i  was  wholly  ju-evented,  and  the 
owner  of  the  said  schooner  was  also  ]»revi'nted  from  usinj; 
her  foi'  the  purposes  of  seal  huntin};  dui-ini';  the  year  1SS7,  as 
lie  otherwise  wiMild  have  done,  and  linally  the  said  schooner, 
her  tackli .  apparel,  oiitlit  and  lar^'o,  were  wholly  lost  to 
those  interested  in  the  same,  and  other  loss,  dama};e  and  e.\- 
peiise,  were  suffered  and  incurred  by  the  persons  so  interest- 


<t 


^'ou  will  find  the  same  claim  put  forward  in  the  schedule 
40    of  the  ISritish  case  in  the  exhibit  of  the  declaration  settinj: 
(Mit  Ihiv  ( laim. 

The  Commissioner  lui  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — I'nless  it 


is  clear  to  both  of  us  that  an  objecti 


is  well  taken.  I  think 


it  would  be  a  belter  method  lo  let  the  formal  arfjument  take 
jdace  al   a  future  date. 


I Kxainination  of  witness 


itinueil  b\-  Mr.  I'etersi: 


50 


(J. — Now  in  the  year  iss"  did  you  as  a  matter  of  fact  send 


nuy  of  your  other  vessels  to  the  Itehrin;;  Sea'. 


A.— Y. 


<i. — \\hal  vessel  did  you  send  to  the  Hehriny;  Sea  in  I8S7? 
A.— I  sent  the  "ralhlinder." 

(i. — Who  was  the  captain  of  the  "I'alhllnder"  in  that  year? 
A. —  I  believe  it  was  Captain  O'Leary. 

il. —  In  that  year  she  was  not  seized?       A. — No. 

i}. — Can  you  tell  me  how  many  seals  the  "I'athlinder" 
cauffht  in  the  Uehiiiif;  Sea  in  the  yeai'  ISS7?  That  is,  how- 
many  se.ils  did  they  briiifi  home  to  you?       .\.— From  the  IJeli- 


r,o     MIIK  Sea  a 


Ion 


(i. — (live  me  them  all  lo^i'thei 


A. 


If 


liiv  meniorv  sei'ves 


mv.  it  was  about  2. si;!  m-  12,S14  for  the  seascui. 

(i. — ^du  include  in  that  the  coast  catch  and  the  catch  in 
the  Mehriu}!;  Sea.       .\. — Yes. 

i-i. — Have  yiMi  any  means  (d'  showing  how  many  she  cauffht 
in  the  jJehrinjj;  Sea?  A. — I  think  tliere  is  a  memo,  in  the 
small  book  theic  that  shows  it. 

Q. — \Nhal  is  that  botdx?      .\. — It  is  a  small  inemoi'andum 


book  that   we  kept   their  washes  ii 


i'3 


lO 


Q.— Who  was  that  b(iok  kept  l>v?       A.— It.v  Mr.  <'ariH'. 

(2.— That  was  .voiii-  parliu'i?      A.— In  tlic  urocfrv  ItiiHiiicss. 

(J.— Was  Mr.  ("arnc  inliicslt  d  in  the  '•ralhliiidcr?"  A. — 
He  was. 

(^. —  VihI  1i,>  i;,.|,t  a  book  which  imrportH  to  show  wliat?  A. 
— Tlic  anuninl  of  wajtcs  oaiiic*!  In  each  nicinhcr  of  the  crew. 

(^. — And  fidin  lliat  anioiiiil  of  wafirs  can  you  jiidKt'  tlu'  nuin- 
hcr  of  seals  each  man  canfihl?  .\. —  I  would  not  like  to  say. 
I  sec  llu'  amount  ni^'"  i"  dollars,  hut  I  have  for},'olt('n  for 
the  lime  what  amount  they  jfol  per  skin  for  that  year. 

Q. —  In  that  same  liook  is  llnir  .i  nu-mo.  mad.'  I>y  yourself 
xliowiiii;  the  catcli  of  ^eals?  A. — The  memo,  was  made  by 
mvself. 


20 


30 


40 


.Mr.  Djekinson:— I  iindersiand  this  is  a  memorandum  made 
liv  (lie  partner  .tflei   the  return  of  the  ship. 

.Mr.  r'-t<Ms-  -This  is  a  'nemoiaml'im  made  in  that  book  by 
liimself  at  that  lime. 

Mr.  Dickinscm:— lie  was  not  on  the  ship. 

.Mr.  Peters:— No. 

llOxamination  by  Mr.  I'eler*'.  continued. 

ti.— That  nu  nu»r  indum  sliows  the  number  of  skins  actual- 
ly caujrht  for  the  season?     A    -Ves,  2,SI4  skins. 

ii. —  Does  that  show  lion  many  of  these  were  caiif^ht  in 
Itehrin;;  sta  ami  how  many  outside?  A. — 1  do  not  thiidi  lie 
memo,  shows  il.  but  I  believe  then-  were  !)4o  caufjht  outside 
of   ISehrin^  sea. 

(i. — .\nd  tile  balance  was  cau.iihi  in  the  sea?     A — Yes. 

(i. — That  information  you  of  course  take  fi<nn  what  yotir 
cajxain  tidd  you?  A.— \oi  (x.ictly.  I  take  it  from  '  the 
skins  jiiven  to  me  befcu-e  she  ( ntered  the  sea,  and  from  the 
captain  as  well.  These  skins  were  delivered  before  the  ves 
sel  entered  the  sea. 

(2- — The  Itt")  skins  were  actually  delivered  to  you  before 
she  went   into  the  sea?     A. — Yes.' 

Q. — There  can  be  no  doubt  about  that?  A. — No,  I  do  not 
think  so 

(i.— l>o  you  know  when  the  "Pathtinder"  entered  the 
Itelninj;  sea  in  1SS7.  A.— I  do  not  remember  that,  but  T 
presume  Captain  O'Leary  could  tell. 

(i.— How  many  boats  did  you  liave  on  the  "Pathfinder"  In 


the  vear  1SS7? 


-Si.\  boats. 


Q.— That  is  one  more  than  vou  Iiad  the  vear  before?       A. 

-Yes, 

^l — And  you   had  a   corresponding   number  of   hunters  in 
50       1SS7?     .\. — Yes,   a    lorresjiondinfi  number  of  hunters.    . 

ii — Had  she  a  shii)'s  boat   in  a<ldition?     .\. — I  do  not    re- 
member, but   she  had  these  si.\  re};ular  sealinj;  boats. 

ii. — \in\  she  had  no  (aiioi  s,  and  no  Indian  hunters?      A. — 


60 


Q.— How  do  the  hunters  that  you  had  in  1SS7  on  the 
"Pathtinder"  compare  with  the  hunters  you  had  on  the  "t'ar- 
olena"  in  l.^sti.  ,\. — Tliey  were  about  the  same  class  of  men. 
I  notice  that  two  of  them.  Shields  and  iMipcmt,  had  bee 


tl 


'olena. 


n  on 


«i.— Had  you  any  other  vessel  huutin<?  seals  in  the  MehriuL' 
sea  in  1S,H7?     A.— .\o. 

(i.— X<tw  leaving'  out  the  amount  of  seals  you  not  in  1SS7 
can  you  tell  nu'  the  price  of  seal  skins  in  1HS7?      A.— Alumt 

.ft;. 

^i- — Where  did  you  sell  yinir  seal  skins  that  vear,  and  to 
whom  did  you  sell   tlwm?     A.— I  sold  l'.:!_'(l  to  '.los.  ninmn 


of  New  York   or  to  his 


ajfent  hen-.     I  see  that    l!t;',  were  sold 


in  small  h.ls,  but  I  h.ive  foiyolten  whom  thev  wete  sold  to. 


!,:    IIP*  1*1 


114 


ii 


10 


30 


40 


tliii(    year  wert'  Hit'  skinw 


Q. — -Ml   (he  sidiis  vmi  tltalt    in 
iroiii  llio  ••I'iitlilindfi'?     A.— Yes. 

(i. — It  IK  cuIUhI  to  inv  atlciitioii  tliat  I  did  ii<it  ask  .voii 
llio  nmiilM'r  (tf  seals  the  "ranilcna"  was  supposed  to  have 
caiiylit  in  1SS(!?  What  nunilicr  do  V(»n  claim  were  cauf^lit? 
A.— 1  paid  tlic  linnlcis  for  f!S4  skins.  Imt  as  I  say  yon  will 
Und  a  little  discrej.an.y  (here.  I  see  from  Hie  inventory 
that  tliere  were  a  few  yrey  jinits  on  lioard  that  I  did  not  ]»ay 
for.  I  would  not  have  to  pay  for  iliem  as  I  hey  behm^t'd  to 
the  vessel,  and  they  were  tiirown  in. 

Mr.  Dickinson:— I  iiiifiht  as  will  dispose  of  the  <;>«'.v  pups, 
by  askiui;  my  learned  friend  wliedier  he  diaries  the  United 
States  for  the  jnips? 

Mr.  Peters: — Most  nnqnestioiiably  I  do,  if  lliey  took  our 
pupa  why  should  they  not  pay  foi'  them.  We  will  jjive  evi- 
dence as  to  their  value. 


20 


50 


6q 


(To  witness): 

Q. — What  is  the  value  of  these  ffrey  i»ups  as  a  fjeneral 
rule?  A. — At  the  jiresent  lime  we  sell  the  skins  as  they 
run.  and  tliev  are  worth  as  much  (o  11s  as  the  best  skins  we 
have  "Tot.  Hut  in  ISSli  they  were  not  sold  in  that  way.  W«' 
sold  them  then  for  about  #±(1(1  ajiiece,  of  course  they  were 
much  smaller  than  the  seals. 

Q. — I  think  I  am  ri<rht  in  saying  that  they  weiuli  ll.l 
pounds?    A. — About  '.li. 

i}. — And  the  (udin  v  skin  weifjhs  fiom  S  to  10  pounds? 
\.— Yes 

Q. — I  am  told,  Mr.  Miinsie,  that  the  hiffhest  jjiice  that 
was  ;{iven  for  these  f>rey  jniii  skins  in  1SS(t  was  about  !|»1.7r>? 
A.— Well,  from  lil.no  to  f'J.(»(».  I  think  I  ^ot  i^'2.i)<)  for 
mine,  but  I  am  not  positive.  1  believe  1  sobl  sionie  skins  to 
Mr.  SjuMii^,  and  I  believed  he  allowed  me  $2.00  f(U'  them. 
These  were  the  jjrey  i>ups  I  ifot  on  the  o(»ast.  Of  course  the 
buyer  <rets  them  as  clieaii  as  he  can. 

Mr.  Peters: — F  wouLl  like  to  state  (o  the  Comniissioners 
at  this  jtoint  that  this  witness  is  in  a  position  to  i;ive  very 
cleai  evidence  as  to  the  calciies  in  tiie  years  ISSS,  1SS!>  and 
ISDd,  wliicli  will  afterwards  be  ncessary  lo  be  (luiuired  into 
by  this  Commission.  Mut  as  (liese  years  have  iioih  n-r  to  do 
with  tlu'  present  case,  I  do  iio(  |»idpose  to  exmaine  him 
about  tluni  at  the  present  lime. 

The  ('(Uiimissioiier  on  (he  part  tif  (he  I'liited  S(a((s: — Mr. 
Pe(ers,  how  does  (lie  lav  of  hiiiiteis  and  crew  of  ISS"  compare 
widi  that  of  1886? 

Mr.  Peters: — I  will  ask  that  ipiesdon. 

(To  witness) — (^ — Was  tliere  any  dilVereiice  in  the  lays? 
A. — Yes,  I  believe  (here  was,  but  I  hardly  know  what  (he 
priie  was  in  1SS7,  as  i(  is  not  marked  liere.  It  would  ln' 
about  11. -jn  or  sfL.'id  per  skin. 

(i». —  Probablv  .Mr.  Caine  niiijht  explain  that  later  on.  A. 
—Yes. 

The  ('oinmissioiier  011  tiie  part  of  (lie  I'liKed  S(a(cs: — Have 
you  conipul<d  the  avera^ic  lay  pel"  skin  for  1SS7? 

Mr.   I'ctcrs: — Yes. 

The  ('(immissioni  r  on  (he  jiail  of  (he  Initcd  Stales: — How 
much  is  it,  including;  (lie  hiinlers  and  the  crew? 

Mr.  reters: — I  intend,  your  Honour,  to  put  in  a  written 
st.'itemi  nt  on  tli;>(   poin(. 

(To  witness} — (.2.— (i(  neially  speakin>>.  you  say  (her(>  was 
a  dilleiMice  between  I  lie  lav  of  IHHd  and  the  lav  of  1SN7,  but 


1 1 ' 


lO 


20 


30 


'|0 


50 


60 


A.— Well,  llu'ic 
lilt'  ciiptiiiii  and 


you  ciiinot  },'iv<*  Hic  I'xacI  tlillViciicf?      A.— I  cannot  nivo  it; 
i  will  not  sav  positivcl.v  that  it  was  ditTcrcnt. 

(^._Yonr  i»arlnt'r,  Mr.  ("aiiif.  who  kt-pt  that  book,  would 
l)c  al»U'  to  Htatc?      A.— lie  ininht. 

Q.— In  anv  cam-  that  hook  shows  actuall.v  tin-  amount  that 
you  really  did  pay  to  the  crew  that  year?  A.-  In  dollars, 
ves. 

Q._So  that,  so  far  as  the  "ralhfinder"  is  eoneeriu-d,  that 
hook  shows  you  the  amount  you  jjot  for  the  skins  and  the 
amount  vou  paid  out  for  them?      A. — Y«  s. 

(i.— Tell  me  the  amount  you  p.id,  ineludint;  lay  and  every- 
thiuK  else,  for  that  vear?  "  A.  -The  amount  of  wap's  paid 
on  aeeount  of  the  "I'atliHnder"  for  IS1S7  was  «!S,r.!»2.4l',  and 
that  includes  the  lay  and  wafjes  and  everylhiuK  else. 

(2.— What  was  llie  amount  of  the  outtit?  A— I  do  not  re- 
iriember;  it  is  not  stated  here. 

(.1 — How  nuiny  were  there  in  the  crew? 
would  only  he  about  four  or  five  men. 

(2. — And   the  lay?     A. — There  would  be 
the  mate  on  wafjes  and  the  hunters  at  so  much  per  skin.  The 
hunters  would  take  so  much  jter  skin.      There  would  be  five 
men  on  the  lay. 

The  Connnissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'lnted  States:— The 
crew  would  take  live  tiftyfifths,  or  one  eleventh? 

Witness: — Yes. 

Hy  Mr.  refers:— 

(2. — Now  to  come  to  this  inventory.  There  was  an  inven- 
tory taken  from  the  "Carolena,"'  of  which  I  have  been  served 
with  a  copy  and  which  I  propose  to  i)ut  in  evidence.  This 
purports  to  be  the  inv«'ntory. 

"Received  from  ('ai»tain  ('.  TT.  .\bbey.  conimandin}^  l'.  S. 
steamer  "Corwin,"  above  mentioned  property,  wliiih  I  hold 
until  denmnded  by  legal  authority.  Signed  'Anderson,'  dep- 
Mty  United  States  Marshal." 

(i. — Have  you  seen  that?      A. — Yes. 
This  recei]»t,  given  by  the  d«'puty  I'nited  States  Marshal  to 
the  c<mnnander  of  '.he  "Corwin,"  is  a  partial  inventory. 


-Exhibit  12  (i.  H.) 

A. — 084  was  what 


(I'aper  marked  (Maim  No. 

Q. — This  gives  (!85  fur  seal  skins? 
believe  I  paid  for. 

ii. — There  were  also  twelve  grey  pup  skins  and  one  hair 
seal  skin?      A. — I  have  no  account  of  them  whatevop. 

Q. — Mut  they  were  ai»parently  on  board  the  shii)  when 
seized?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — There  is  also  one  yawl,  and  that,  I  suppos*',  would  be 
the  boat  you  speak  of?      A. — Yes. 

ii. — And  there  are  four  canoes?     A. — Yea. 

Q. — Now,  tlu're  is  a  statement  in  this  "Exhibit  12":  "Thnc 
coils  of  line,  small,  two  and  a  half  inch  Manilla;  oue  coil  of 
line,  small,  four  inch  Maailhi."  And  tlit  y  a  v  m.irked  out-- 
side  of  the  statement  "poor."  Have  you  e\:aui'ni  d  the  voucli- 
ers  you  produced  yest«'rday  to  see  what  thse-,'  were?  A. — 
They  ought  not  to  be  poor,  for  it  was  marked  in  the 
vouchers  "American  Hope." 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Even  American  ropo  will  get  (dd. 

Mr.  Peters: — H  was  bought  in  ?.Iiv,  IJfStJ,  and  seized  in 
August,  1886. 

(To  witness.)  Q. — As  a  nnittor  t.f  fiet,  was  ii  American 
rope?  A. — I  can  (uily  go  by  the  vo  ich.'r,  and  the  v  )ucher 
says  it  was  .\merican  rope,  and  (lic  Amei':f:in  r<»pe  was  con- 
sidered the  best  roiK-  in  those  days.       In  fi'ct,  I  do  not  know 


I 


116 

lint    tliji(    it   JM   !(»(liiy      We   iisuallv  ciill   fur  Aiiiniciiii    rope, 
iiiid  tlic  voiulici-  siiys  it    was  Aiiii-riciiii   lojic. 

<i.— WIh'Ii  W!!s  tiial  lidiinlil?  A.- It  was  lH(iif;1it  in  tlic 
siding  of  ISSt). 

Mr.  IN'tt'fN: — Tlicic  is  aiKitlicr  invcnlon  wliidi  I  wisli  to 
put  in  and  wliicii  was  n-ci'lvcd  in  tin-  same  way.  It  sets  out 
a  laijrc  nnnilit-r  -tf  thing's  tiiat  wen-  on  lioard  of  tlit-  siiij). 

iTo  witness.)  Q. — I  want  to  ask  y(ni  (liis,  Alt-.  Mnnsic.  in 
lO  connection  witii  these  inventories,  do  yon  pielend  from  your 
ineinoiy  to  t>:ive  a  detailed  slaleinent  of  what  was  on  boaid 
Tlnif  sidp?     .\. — I    cannot. 

(i. — Does  this  inventof_\  include  tliinLrs  that  \on  'lave  not 
nientioneil  at  all?  .\. — It  inclndes  thin^vs  tliat  are  new  to  lai 
and  that  I  had  !<>r!.><>lten  about. 

Q. — And  that  actually  ajtpear  to  have  Ikm  n  taken  fioni  Hi;- 
!«hip?  A. — Yes.  I  am  not  sure  'mii  that  I  was  a  little  in 
error  about  the  (ISl  skins.  I  see  there  are  (iS(>  here,  and  that 
would  account  ;"or  the  two  skins. 


20 


30 


40 


;o 


69 


Mr.  I'eters:— I  befi  to  hand  in  the  followinj;  schedule:  "In- 
ventory .\i-iicl«-s  on  I'oard  the  schooner  'Caroleiia,'  of  N'icto- 
ria,  I'..  ('.,  seized  by  the  I'.S.  Steamer  'r<n-win,'  seized  for 
violation  of  law  utu]  killinji  seals  in  llie  waters  of  Alaska." 

(Taper  marked  rhiim  No.  1— K.xhibit  i:!.  <i.  U.) 

(K.xainination  by  .Mr.   Telers  continued.) 

Q. — 1  wish  to  call  your  attention  to  this  inventory,  Mr- 
.Munsie.  It  begins  in  this  way:  "One  .'<cliooiier,  the  '('ar(»ii-- 
na,'  of  Itr'tish  ('olnnd)ia.  t>ne  f(>re-sai!,  fail,  one  mainsail, 
fair;  one  jil»,  fair;  one  staysail  boom,  tojipiii};  jib.  piior;'"  anil 
then  there  is  a  loii};  list  of  articles  which  are  all  sujtposed  to 
be  marked  "poor."  As  a  matter  of  fact,  is  there  any  reason 
for  callin<!;  these  thinj;s  j-oor,  or  were  they  in  j^ood  oidcr? 
A. — Well,  tlie\  were  all  the  best  we  conld  jict  hevc  at  tht 
time, 

il. — .\t  the  bottom  of  the  inventory  yon  will  find  noted  tiie 
chronoiiM'ter  yon  hav(  spoken  of.  Ity  Thom.is  Hewitt,  and 
that  is  also  described  as  "pom."  It  is  the  ;  ame  number  yon 
have  spoken  of  nnmliered  SII7.  .\. — Thi'  master  of  tin-  "liar 
\('st  Home."  from  whom  I  hoairht  it.  told  me  it  I'ost  iiim 
(ifty  poundH  ste-linp. 

Q.— And  what  did  you  pav  for  it?     A.— I   j.aid  sfUid.  but 
of  eonrse  as  to  the  leal   merits  of  tlie  chronometer  I  ciinnot 
sjieak   personally. 
Q. — It  was  in  udod  order  as  far  as  von  know?     .\. — Yes. 

<}. — I  see  here  in  tiie  iiivei>t<n'\  there  is  noted  an  Kn^'lish 
ensiirn,   which    is  als.t  marked   "poor."     Is   there  any   reason 


why  that  slionid  be  called  jioo 


A.— It 


lav  nave  iieen  o 


.Id. 


but  it  is  a  !>'(»od  tU\ji  all  tlie  same.     I  do  not  know  how  old  it 


was. 


.Mr.   Dickinson: — We  will 


cem 


ede  \(>ur  Honnurs  that   tliat 


ensi":ii  mav  be  (dd.  bnt  it  was 


never  jioor. 


Mr.    l'<t<i-s:— That    w 
St'ites  marshal  at  Sill; 


>l    til 


(>   ojiinion   o 


f     tl> 


I'nited 


Mr    Dickinson:— The  I'nited  Slates  imirshal  was  wrotif;. 

Mr.  I'eteis: — I  am  triad  to  heai-  yon  say  so. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'liited  States: — We 
do  not  expect  it  to  be  any  jieorer  when  we  ^et  tliroufjh  with 
this  heaiin<r. 

tKxamination  by  ^\v    I'eters  eontinned): 

(i.Yesteiday  you  made  the  statement  with  le^iard  to  the 
"t'aiolena"  that    the  aecomniodaion  on  board   was   not  verv 


117 


10 


20 


<;i)<mI?     A— I  dill  iiot   iiiiiiii  lliii(  il    wjih  not  ^tuid,  but  it   Wii» 
liiiiilt'il   in   spiKT. 

(2. — Slif  Wiis  a  siiiiill  vcsHflV     A. — ^■('N. 

(j. — Will  i-(-;!iii'(l  Id  tilt-  licilclolliiiiji  aiul  nititli'cHHt'H  on 
liotii'd  iIm-  "Ciir-olfna"  did  tiirv  Ixdon;;  to  tlic  slii]i  or  to  tli<> 
I  lew?  A. — Tiicv  l«'lon;{cd  to  the  cicw,  wiio  foiMw!  tlu'ir  own 
li('ddin<j. 

(/. — Is  tlint  the  usnril  cnsiom?    A. —  It  is  the  nsnal  custoni. 

(i. — \u\i  liuvc  inserted  u  ciaini  for  inteicst  in  tliis  niiitter 
and  you  pnl  it  down  at  seven  per  cent.,  will  voii  tell  me  what 
llie  usual  rate  of  inleiest  is  in  Nictoria?  Von  have  alreadv 
stated  that  on  tiie  niort^'a<;e  of  tin-  ship  yon  ]iaid  \'2  )>er  rent. 
|ier  annum,  but  what  <s  the  usual  rate  on  eonimereial  nnit- 
fers  her('?  A. — Well,  one  jiei'  cent,  per  month  was  the  nsna! 
rate  of  interest  in  ISsti  and  alon;;  in  tiiese  years,  an<l  I  be 
lit-ve  tin-  bank  rate  at  the  present  ti)ne  is  about  ei^ht  per 
cent. 

(i. — As  a  matter  (if  fact,  assiiniinj;  tiial  for  the  purpose  <»f 
ri  piaeini.;  the  sehoonir.  and  putting'  yourself  in  the  same  ]iosi- 
tion,  you  had  liorrovved  in  ISSli  whatevei-  the  amount  of  dam 
.->.u:<-s  would  have  been  wortti  up  to  th<'  present  time,  would 
seven  ji<r  <-ent.  be  a  \i\l■'^^'  rate  of  intei-esi  to  |tay  for  il?  A. 
-—It   would  be  a   low  rate. 

(i. — t'ould  ymi  have  t;,ot   it  f<u'  h  ss? 
il   for  that. 


-I   eonld  not   sret 


*i. — So    lliat    when    you    I'liaificd    scxcn    pel    e<nt,    yon    arc 
cliaiitini;  what  ^■^m  eonld  not   have  "ot  the  monev  for?     A. — 


i 


'30 


50 


<].— Would   yon    have   had    lo   pay   more?     A. — Yes. 

<>.-  \(Mi  Jiave  niveti  us  the  iiaiiK  s  of  tin-  ck  w  of  the  "Car 
(deiia"  now  will  \(im  tell  us  what  has  becmne  of  tliein.  t'ap- 
tain  (l-ilvie  is  dcail?     .\.— Yes. 


(^Where  is  .lainues  Mlake 


-lie  is  dead. 


ii. — Where  is  Dupe  lit?      A. —  \  believe  hi    is  dead. 


(i. — Where  is  .M(  t'enahay' 


-I   understand  he  is  dead 


als 

ti- — Where  is  Kdwaid  Shields?  .\. — He  is  deail  H,  was 
lost  on  the  ".May  ISelle"  last  year;  he  was  master  of  the  "Mav 
I'i'lle"  and  the  v  i  ssi  I  and  all  hands  wire  lost. 

Q. — When  is  lolin  <'iitsl'iird?  A. — I  understand  he  is  Us 
Sr.-il.le. 

ii. — Have  you  been  able  to  find  him?     A. — No. 
Q- — Have   yon    made   empiiries   about    him.     .\. — ^'es,    but     I 
have  not   been  ;ib1e  to  find  him. 

Q— ^Vhe|•e  is  I).  Unssell''  A.— .\f  last  aicouiits  he  was  In 
Seattle,  but  I  do  not  know  where  he  is.  I  have  written  him 
a  letter,  liiit  j;iit  no  ansv\er. 

<}.— \Vhere  is  T.  .McLariy?  A.— I  am  not  sun  whether  he 
is  dead  oi'  not,   I   li.-ive   lust  the  run  of  him. 

(i. — Have  von  made  t  mpiii'les  fer  .McLarty?  .\. — Yes.  I 
rather  think  tli.it   he  is  dead,  because  on  niakiii<r  emjuiries  a 

iif  his  friends  told  me  he  was 


short   lime  at'o,  I  think  so 
dead. 

Q— ^Vlien    is   William   Kno.\?     .\.— I   do  not    know   wliere 
he  is.  I  have  no  trace  of  him.      I   h-ave  not   been  able  lo  liiid 


60 


Q- — Where   is   .laims    Mnn^i  r?     .\.— .\t    last    accounts    l-o 
was  in  Seattle. 

Q. — Have  you  communicated   with   him?     .\.  — Yes. 

Q.—  y    ve  you  ever  heard  fr<mi  him?     A.— Xo. 

Q.— Where   is    William    Tei.nyson?     A.— I     do    not     know 
where  he  is.     I  have  made  eni|uirii  s  and  can  find  out  iiolli 
injr  about  him. 

Q— Willi  rei;ard  to  James  Itlaki ,  who  is  dead,  he  puts  ii 


a  claim  for  personal  damajjes,  for  arrest 


aiiothi 


iiid  one  thins  i"><l 


l>o  yon   know   when  he  died?     .\. —  I   made  a   not 


note 


somewhere  at  the  time  of  his  death,  but  I  do  not  remembor 
Just  now  when  he  died. 


118 


^ 


lO 


3" 


40 


00 


(i.-Wliiiv  <lli]    liiiiHH  I'.liiUc  live?     A.— lit'  lived  in   Vic 

tOliil. 

Q.  -NViis  lie  i\  iniiiiicd  iiiaii?     A. — Nol  to  in.v  kin»wli'(lKf. 

ii. —  Wiis  he  ii  iiii<l(ll)'ii^'('d  iiiiiii?  A. — Yes,  11  iiiitldl*' ti^ftl 
iiiiin.     lie  wiiH  ji  Hciirtiriii;;  iiiiiii. 

Q.— lie  wiis  ii  oiiiiiMc  imin?  A. — I  undci'stodd  liini  to  Im« 
so 

ii. — lliid  lie  Itccii  in  voiir  ciiijtlo.v  for  aii.v  l«'ii>,'lli  of  (iinc' 
A. — Tliiit   WJI8  liiH  tirwt  season  in  ni,v  ('ni|»io,vnuMit. 

i}. — l»o  you  l<now  what  «Mnplo,vni4>nt  lie  w«'nl  into  after- 
wards? A. — No.  I  do  nol.  I  rather  lliiid;  lu'  went  IIhIiIii^. 
lie  lion<ilit  a  sloop  and  went  lisliinx.  That  is  niv  opinion, 
but  I  will  not  say  positively. 

ii. — ^Vas  ("aplain  Oyilvie  a  nniiried  man?  A. — Not  to  my 
knowledtre. 

ii. — Was  he  an  elderly  innn  or  a  yonnp  man?  A. — An 
«'lderly  man. 

ii. — How  lon{?  was  h«'  employed  by  you?  A. — That  was 
his  tlrst  season. 

ii. — And  his  only  season?       A. — Yes;  he  died. 

i}. — Had  he  resided  in  \'iet(»ria  for  any  len(;th  of  tinted 
A. — I  do  n(»t  know  how  lon^,  but  I  had  known  liim  f<n'  some 
\ears. 

(i.-   Had  he  been  a  sejifarinfj  man  always?       A. — Yes. 

ii. — TlM-re  was  a  jtlnce  named  Kyocpiot  mentioned  yester- 
<lay;  where  is  that?  A. — It  is  on  tlie  northw<'Ht  coast  of 
\'ancouver  Island.       II  is  an  Indian  reserve. 

ii. —  Is  it  a  jdaee  of  call  for  sealin<^  vessels?  A. — A  num- 
ber of  vessels  seal  out  of  that  port. 

ii. — Have  any  Enu'lish  jieople  establishments  there?  A. — 
Yes. 

Q. — Have  you  one?  A  --I  h.ivc. 

ii. — You  keep  a  store;  there?      A. — A  trading  store. 

ii. — Hid  you  keejt  one  there  in  18S(!?      A. — No;  not  there. 

(J!. — ^Is  it  tile  habit  of  the  sehot)ners  to  store  their  skins 
there?  A.— They  s(tmetimes  are  in  the  habit  of  landin;;; 
them  there  feu-  transshipment  (o  \'ictoria. 

(i.--That  would  be  the  eoast  catch?  A. — Y'es,  some  ves 
sets  do  that,  but  not  all. 

ii. — Mefore  they  proceed  to  Hehrinji  Sea  they  land  their 
coast  catch  there?      A. — There  and  elsewhere. 

ii. — Where  did  you  have  a  tradinj;  store  in  IS.Stl?  A. — 1 
had  a  store  at  P'sjM'ran/a  Inlet. 

ii. — When  did  you  establish  your  store  at  Kyoqn<»t?  A. — 
Not  uniil  the  pres<'nt  season. 

Hirect  examiualicui  closdl. 


Cross-examination  bv  Mr.  Hickinson. 


A.— 1 


ii. — Mr.    Munsie,  what  is  your  pn'seni   Imsincss? 
am  interested  in  several  businesses. 

ii. — What  are  they?  A. — Lumbering,  sealinj,',  mining  and 
fisliing. 

ii. — .\re  you  out   of  I  he  grocery  business?  A. — Yos. 

ii. — What  was  youi-  business  in  lSSr>?  A. — Provision  mer- 
chant. 

ii. — You  were  a  partner  of  Mr.  Carne's?  A. — Yes. 

i}. — \Yas  there  any  one  else  in  the  firm?       A. — No. 

i}. — What  had  been  y<tur  business  ])revious  to  that?  A. — 
T  was  a  meclianic  in  the  .Mbion  Iron  Works  here. 

ii. — Whaf  branch  of  mechanics?  A. — I  was  a  pattei-n- 
maker.  I  started  for  Mr.  Si>rat.  and  got  up  in  1S7S  all  his 
]iatt<'rns  for  the  first  stoves  that  were  made  in  the  ]>rovince. 

ii. — What  is  your  present  age?  .\.— I  recognize  the  4th 
day  of  •lanuary  as  my  birthday.  In  1S40  I  was  born.  T 
will  be  4S  y«'ars  in  one  month  and  one  day. 

Q. — .\re  you  a  native  of  this  province.  A. — I  am  a  native 
of  Nova  Scotia. 


ir.j 


A    10 


20 


1 30 


140 


50 


60 


l^.— Il«w  loiij;  luivc  .voii  kiuovii  Mr.  A.  .1.  Ucclit*'!,  from 
wlmiii  voii  iHirrowcd  iimiicv?  A.— About  twt'lve  .vciirB,  I 
Ihiuk.  ' 

(2.— Voii  know  liiiii  in  ISS(i?      A.— Yfs. 

<i.— Wlijil  WHS  his  liiisintss  in  iSSd,  besides  ijis  lioicl  busi- 
ness'.' A.— I  do  not  know  lluil  lie  was  enniip-d  in  an.v  otiier 
liiisiiiess.       He  liad  been  a  miner. 

il — in  lliis  |i!(>viii(f?       \. —  I  nudeiHland  so. 

(J, — Voii  are  vei;v  j;*""'  friends?       A. — Weil,  yes. 

g._.\inl  liave  id'cn  for  nianv  years?  A. — About  twelve 
veais  auo,  I  lliink.  was  my  first  a<(|uainlame  willi  liiiii. 

(^.— Was  il  1-  years  in  ISSIJ,  or  is  il  12  years  now?  A.— 
Xo,  il  was  almiii  11!  years  umi  from  t!ie  presi-nt  time,  or  per 
liaps  1'!  years.  Tiiai  was  really  my  (irst  ae(|iiainlanee  with 
iiim;  alliioatfli  1  liad  known  liim  by  si)j-iit  I  was  not  aei|uaint- 
ed  Willi  liim. 

ly — So  tliat  you  have  known  him  sinee  IS.S'!?  A. — About 
iss:{,  1  think. 

(i.— And  all  llial   lime  lie  kept  an  liolel?     A.— I  tliink  lie 


did.  but     I     am     not  iiiiile  jiosilive. 


lie  was  in  the    hotel 


.Im'u  I  first  reaily  yol  aei|"'''"'''tl  ^^i"'  ''""■ 
(i.— Did  he  aid  von  in  tfellin;;  iiji  Ihi  se  claiins?     .\. — Xo. 
(2._\()i  ill  nil?'    A.— Xet  at  all. 
Q.— Were  lliey  got  ap  in  liis  hotel,  or  in  his  phue?     A. 


(i. — Were  they  prepared  in  his  ottiee? 


A.— X( 


iy — Or  in  hi.s  luesiiiee 
(2. — .\re  you  "iiiilt 


about    Ihal?     A.— Posilive.     They 


were  prepared  in  l>rake  A  .Jaekson's  oHice. 

Q, — He  was  not  pnsenl  in  Ihe  eourse  of  the  pri'paration? 
A.— Xo. 

Q._X(,(  ;it  all?     .\.— Xot  to  my  knowledge. 

(). — Xow,  the  shares  were  twenty  one  and  one-third  eaeli 
ill   Ihe   sliij)?     .\. — Wliat    liave   you    reference   to? 

il — To  the  shiit  •'('aroleiia,"  in  regard  to  wliieli  this  hear- 
ing is  had?  A.  -.My  first  shares  were  21 ;  there  are  M  shares 
in  Ihe  ship. 

q. — .\iid  Iwenly one  and  oiielhird  shares  would  make  just 
a  third  of  tiie  sliip?     .\. — I  presume  so. 

(j._X„w.  if  I  lie  value  of  Ihe  ship  liad  been  ^2(MII(  this  pecn 
liar  sum  of  fliUT.  Ilial  got  into  all  the  bills  of  sah'.  would  b( 


.1' 


1st  one  third   of   the  *2lt(l(».   would    il    not' 


-1   have  not 


livided  it.  but  1  presume  il   would  be,  ajiproximately. 

(^.—Il   would  lie  about  !iii2IM»0  for  the  wlude  ship,  aecording 
to  tills  figure  of  Iplili'  in  this  bill  of  sale,  instead  of  if.'tSKII? 
.\. — I    suppose   so. 

Q.— And  oiie-liiird  of  the  |:{S00  would  be  how  mueh?     A 
— .|!12(il»  odd  dollars. 

g._Iiistead  of  the  |(J(i7   would  it   not?     .\.— Yes. 

(}.— And  y«ii  swear  that  the  amount  put  in  the  bill  of  sale 
was  incorreVl?     A. — 1  did  not   say  that  il   was  incorrect. 

{}. — Do  yoi.1  not  say  Ihat  the  amount  that  was  imf  in  Ihe 
bill  of  sale  did  not  properly  re]tresent  one  third  of  the  value 
of  the  ship?     A.— Yes,  1  say  that. 

(I — Did  you  say  that  the  total  value  of  the  shi]),  as  you 
had  estimated  it.  belweeti  you  and  Malthewson  and  rripi- 
harr,  was  $:?S0(». 


<i— V 


lid  Mattliewton  and  rninhart,  the  owners  of  the 


ship,  estimated  her  value  af  ^:!S00?     A.— Yes. 

Q. — And  you  say.  do  yon   not.  that  ffi(!7  did  not  properly 
re]a'esent  the  anioun;  paid  for  the  one-third,  am  I  right? 
A. — -I  believe  so  yet,  too. 

Q. — ^Vill  you  answer  the  (juestion,  my  dear  sir,  and  yon 
swore  yesterday,  did  you  not.  that  the  !f(H!7  in  the  bill  of 
sale  was  a  mistake?     A. —  I  did  not  say  it  was  a  mistake. 

Q. —  You  swore  thai  it  did  not  ]»roperly  re|treseiit  the  value 
of  that  ship?  .\. — Yes,  it  does  not  represent  the  value  of  the 
ship  proi>(>rly. 


I,  ItfViW 


123 


ii 


lO 


no 


30 


(2.— \ii«l  >«Mi  NtiUI  i(  (liicN  iiol  ri'|H'iM«'iit  wliiil  voii  iittiially 
|iiiid?    A.— Tliiit  \H  lifilil. 

(^._Yoii  lioii^'lil  tirNi  rii|uliiir('H  hIiiiit  siimI  pd  11  l»lll  uf 
xiili',  did  von?     A.— V<H,  for  I'l  hIiiiimh. 

^^— And  von  piiid  liow  ininli  for  i(?  A.— I  Ih'Iu'Vc  llio 
•  oiiNidciiKion  wiiM  »\:2m  odd  dolliiiM,  it  wiih  a(  I  In-  lalu  «if 
1i:!,S(HI. 

t^.— Did  vou  piiv  if.'     Vt'H. 

g._Ilu\vdid  von  pii.v  il?  A.— I  paid  iiiin  pari  caHli  and 
part  in  (wo  prondssor.v  nolcH. 

il. — And  von  |>aid  liiin  liow  nintli  caKli?  A. —  I  Inivc  for 
tjofton  Mu'  i'\iut  amount 

(/.—Yon  cannot  trll  Hit-  exact  anionnt?     A.— No. 

(/. — Ami  ,v<Mi  liavc  no  hool^s  in  tin-  ollicc  of  <'arnc  &  Mnr 
sic?     A. — Yes.  we  liad  lioolvs  llicrc. 

(/. —  Itnt  von  did  not  pav  ont  nionc.v  from  vonr  llrni  fin- 
\onrsclf  iind  cliarj^c  .\(mr-<clf  vvilli  il  afterwards?  A. — On 
Nonu'  occasions  I  did,  Imt  not  on  lliis  particniar  occasion. 

(/. —  |>i,|  von  vonrsclf  Inne  monc.v  sepiiralc  from  \\w 
account  of  ('arne  iS:  Mnnsie.     A. — Yes. 

g.— Wlu're  did  .von  Ivcep  il?  A.— I  liad  a  snmll  safe  ami 
licpt  it   tluTc. 

(/.^IIow  mncli  monev  arc  v(Mi  accnslonu'd  to  l»ccp  in  vonr 
safe?     A.— I   liave  had' as  lii^li  as  IKMMM). 

<i.-In  tin-  safe.     A  —Yes. 

Q. — Do  <'arne  &  Mnnsie  l<eep  a  banli  account?  A. — TIm'V 
do. 

Q. — And  did  all  tin-  lime?  A.— Yes,  since  llii-v  openod 
business. 

(/. — Yi»n  keep  vonr  sejiarate  monev  in  I  lie  safe?     A. — Yes. 

(/. — And  do  yon  k<'ep  a  bank  acconnf  A. —  I  did  not  ojten 
a  bank  acconnt  nntil  abont  tli(>.venr  1S!)0. 

il. — TTow  did  yon  pay  I  iipiliarl  tlie  casli  llial  ^von  did  pay 
liim?     A. — I  ]»aid  him  in  cash. 

<i. — In  money?     A. — Tn  nion<'.v. 

(i. — Did  yon  take  it  (Mit  of  yonr  safe?       .V. — Yes. 

Q.— h   wiis  Ml  (Mil    tiK'  dale  of  tlie  bill     of     vale?     A.— No. 
The  cash  was  paid  :ind  two  promissory  notes,  one  I  thiidv  for 
|0      *r>(M)  and  one  for  11(10. 

Q. — DonI  mind  the  notes  jnst  now.  Yon  ])aid  him  some 
nione.v?     A. — Yes. 

Q. — \Ylu're?     A. — I  do  no(  reniemlK  r  wheic. 

i-i.- — Did  yon  i)ay  hini  near  .vonr  safe?  A. — I  do  not  ro- 
member. 

<i.— Did  yon  take  tlu'  money  from  the  safe.     A. —  Yes. 

Q. — Yon  don't  know  whether  ,von  ])ai<l  him  rear  llie  safe 
or  not?     A. — T  do  not. 

<).— NcH'  in  yoni-  otilce?     A — 1   do  not   know. 

i.> — Did  y(m  make  any  niinnles  of  the  payment?  A. — I  do 
mi!  know  that  1  did. 

Q. — Did  y<ni  take  ji  receijit  for  it?     .\. — Yes, 

Q.— Where  is  if     A.— In  the  bill  of  sale. 

Q.— That  is  ail"     A  -That  is  all. 

(i. — Is  the  amonni  naiiu'd  in  the  bill  of  sale  the  iimonnt  of 
money  .von  jiaid?  .\. — I  think  that  is  approximately  the 
cash  1  ]>aid. 

ii. — Yon  remend)er  it  was  !|<>(>7?  A. — I  do  not  say  posi 
live  to  the  d<dlar,  lint  abont  thirt. 

Q. — \Yhat  was  the  amount  of  the  notes?  .\. — I  think  one 
was  friOO  or  thereabonis,  and  the  <ithcr  was  for  |ini), 

ii. — And  .von  jiaid  him  these?     A. — Yes. 

Q. — When,  on  malnrity?  A. — I  have  f<ir}iolten  the  timo 
they  were  drawn  now. 

Q. — Did  ,von  iiay  them  in  cash  or  by  check?     A. — PasTi. 

Q. — Have  yon  hxd^ed  in  the  bo(d;s  of  Oarne  .S:  Mnnsie  to 
see  whetlicr  yon  had  yourself  chartrcd  with  lh(>  amonnt  of 
cash  .von  took  to  ]>ay  tliese  notes?     .\. — T  have  not. 

Q. — Y<Mi     did     sonn  times   make   jia.vmenis   from   Oarne   & 


5" 


60 


121 


20 


30 


AIiiiinIc  iiiul  had  it  <  liaiKtd  (o  .voiUHtlt  wlit-ii  v«»ii  wuiitt-d  to 
\»iy  a  Itill?     A.— I  liavr  on  soiih'  (ir(:iHi<iiiH. 
»V— And  voii  liavf  diiiwn  rln'ckx  for  «'iiiii<'  &  MiinHio?     A. 

1     plI'hnlMC    MO. 

(i— Have  vdii  looked  lo  we  wln-lliiT  IIicmc  notcH  wi-rc  paid 
liv  Caini-  iV  MnnMir?      \.— No. 

(2.— Ilavf  von  looked  to  Hct-  wliellin-  Cainc  &  .Mnimii'  .    id 
(III'  $m~  for  lliJH  Iniuliail    inlenm   aixl  had  it   <haii{fd   lo 
von?     .\. — Tln\v  have  not. 
•O  (i.— Have  .von  looked  l«>  «<■(•?      A.— I  have  mil. 

(J.—  K  is  jntd  jioMnihle  that  fame  &  MnnHie  nd^ld  have 
paid  that?  A.— That  waH  a  privati-  nnitler  of  my  own;  It 
had  no  etMineition  with  fame  &  .^Innnie. 

(^._'|'o  |„.  snre.  hut  you  nii^jlit  iia.e  paid  hillw  with  Came 
it  .Munwie's  money  and  ha<l  lliem  diarn^'d  to  youiself?  A. — 
I  might. 

(2.— Now.  lM  Khares  at  |i;»(7  on  the  half  of  one  of  IheHe  lhre<' 
nets  of  •2\  shan-H  eaih  would  amount  to  three  HixlliH.  and  that 
would  he  just  half  of  the  Khip.  would  It  not?  A.— Yen, 
about. 

(^._.\nd  the  half  of  #ti(i7  would  amount  to  !f;5:{a.3:i.  would 
it   not?       A.— About  that. 

(^._|>id  you  ever  add  ftiCiT  to  .|:t:{;t  and  see  what  it  w<mld 
make?      .\. —  I  do  not  know  that  I  did. 

iy—H  makes  #1.(MM(.  does  it  not?      A.— Yes. 

(}. — It  makes  a  representation  of  one  half  of  the  ship  if 
her  value  was  iJiL'.IMM*?      A.— Yes. 

*.i. — And  that  is  just  the  amount  of  the  mort}{a<;e  you  ^ave 
Mr.  Iteehtel.  was  it  not?  A. — Tliat  is  (lie  amount  of  the 
second  tuortj^ajje. 

(i. — .\nd  you  have  lo>it  the  Hist  inoitnap'?  A. — I  do  not 
know  th.-it  it  is  lost,  i  have  ha<)  oecasion  to  hunt  it  up.  and 
I  ]ii-('sume  it   is. 

Q. — Tlie  amount  of  the  other  mortj;af;e  was  just  !f(!(i7,  was 
it  not?      A. — Yes,  so  it  appears  fi'om  the  i-ecord. 

().— And  that  ran  lo  Ueehtel.  did  it   nof       A.— Yes. 

(i. — And  that  was  when  vou  liouijht  out  Matthewson"'      A. 
Y»'S. 
^o  <i' — And    Matthewson   went  away  mining'?  .\.-  Yes. 

(».— W'lieii  vou  iioujiht  the  secoml  share  you  borrowed  ^fit;?? 
A  —No.  I  did  not  say  that.       I  borrowed  ai)()Ut  *r>(l(»,  1  thini;, 

<i — The  amount  of  the  mor(ira^e  was  .•<(!(i7.  and  you  did  I'.ol 
borrow  (hat  amount?       A. — I  did  not. 

<i.-->'on  nave  him  a  niortj/aj";*'  for  too  much?  A.— Xo,  1 
did  not  consider  it  was  loo  much.  It  was  stitliciiiit  to  cover 
int<  res! 

(}.— That  is  what  you  stated  on  direct  examination.        Ho 
you  say  it   was  fcu*  interest?       A. — \Yell,  it  was  sutlicicnt  to 
50       cover  intei'est. 

Q. — Was  it  for  interest?  A. — I  presume  it  was  an  amount 
to  cover  inii'i'cst. 

(i.--l>o  you  swear  (ha(  is  what  it  was  for?  A. — \o.  1 
won't  swear,  but    I  itresume  it   was. 

'? — ^'on  have  iilso  swein  >()ii  jiaid  i(  before  vou  boijowed 
the  f  l,(IO(t.  Yon  swear  yon  j.aid  (he  *(;(!7?  .\.-  I  said  that 
the  mort<ja,ue  was  cancelled  ;ind  a  uiortjiaj^e  lor  -lil.dOO  w;is 
taken  in  i(«  jdjice,  That  was  when  I  boujiht  Matthewson 
out. 
60  ii- — I»id  you  not  swear  y(>sterday.  .Mr.  Mnnsie,  that  yon  paid 
thai  interest  on  the  old  morttra^'e?  .\. — I  jiaid  the  old  in- 
teiest  up  lo  the  lime  the  new  mortira^e  was  made. 

Q.— Now,  that  first  morl<,'a^'e  that  is  n')t  here  and  that  yoa^ 
cannot  (Ind  was  for  l^mT.  and  that  happens  to  1h>  just  ;;V<(ut 
unelhird  of  the  value  of  the  sliij)  if  she  was  worth  Sl*,s(()()? 
A.— About. 

Q — And  at  the  same  lime  you  say  that  the  differonc"  be- 
tween ^.^Od  and  ^fi(;7  you  think  to  the  best  of  your  knowledge 
and  belief  was  interest?       .\. — Yes. 

Q- — Now.  when  yon  look  the  second  morl};a}je.  Mr.  Mnnsie. 


122 


lO 


20 


30 


I  I  i 


40 


SO 


Go 


iiiul  i»{ii<l  (hilt  iiitcrcNt.  t\n>  pW~  old  iiu.itjfiijrc  (liar  .vou  ftavi' 
Itoclitt'l  at  tlic  time  .vou  lM»ii}j;h(  (he  scc-oud  sliMif  was  tlis 
rha rff«'d ','      .V.— It  was  disc-liai'trc'd. 

(i. — And  a  iii<uij;af;('  for  jusl  f.!;!.},  and  (lit'  oiic-tliird  more, 
or  a  oiic-sixth  of  tlu>  valuation  of  tlic  sliip  at  |>l.'.(MI(),  was  pur 
in.  ant'  if  the  sliiji  was  woitli  fl'.dOO,  tlic  $1,(MM»  n-pn'scntcd 
just  half  !k'I'  valut'.  did  it  not?      A. — Ahonl  tliat. 

(i. — And  a  I  tlic  same  lime  you  im  leased  tlie  miiuber  of 
sliaics  from  -I  to  ;{:{?  A. — 1  jiavc  a  moitpifje  on  ',V2  shares 
to  cover  the  one  thousand  dollar  loan. 

Q. — That  is  what  you  said,  that  yon  increased  the  niimttei 
of  shares  in  the  sliij)  when  yon  nioi't<;a.!j;cd  to  Andrew  Itcchtcl 
for  the  ifl.OdO?  A.— I  iiioi-tjiaired  ;{2  shares  of  (he  sliii.  lor 
the  lo:-ii  of  the  '^l,(W). 

ii. — Now  I  waiil  to  ask  \o\\  another  (|iicstioii.  (Vnniii^ 
back  to  rlia(.  yon  said  you  wished  to  exidain  something;.  lla\(' 
you  any  exjdaiiadon  to  tfive  as  to  the  jiaymeiit  of  interesi  on 
the  ^<(><»7  before  yon  f^ave  (he  new  inorty;ati;e?  Have  you  jiiiy 
exp'anatitm  to  make  about  (liat?  Did  you  jiay  it?  A. — F 
lU'csniiic  I  ]»aid  the  interest  up  to  the  day  that  the  new  moii- 
ji;a<>e  was  <j;iven. 

(j. — Yon  did  not  jiay  the  ||>1(>7  as  interest?  A.— No.  I  be- 
lieve I  paid  jns^  (he  amount  of  'iiterest  due. 

Q. — The  interest  due  on  what?  A. — From  (he  time  that 
the  mortnajre  was  drawn  until  it  was  cancelled  and  (he  .lew 
one  issued;  that  would  b»'  nearly  six  months. 

i.1. — Interest   on  how   much   money?     A. — Dii  !|>.">(M». 

Q. — You  i»aid  the  interest,  and  how  did  you  pay  it;  did  yon 
pay  it  in  cash  or  by  cliet-k?   A. — In  cash. 

Q. — And  where  did  yon  pay  it?     A. — I  do  not  remember. 
^  (i.— Did  yon  take  lieclKel's  receipl  ?       A.— I  think  1  took 
the  cancelled  mortfiajie.  and  perhajis   it   was  endorsed,  and 
perhaps  I  toidc  (he  receipt.  1  am  not  positive. 

Q. — When  did  you  last  see  the  mortfratre  for  f(»(i7?  A. — 1 
do  not  remember. 

il. — Did  it  have  any  meiiMuandum  on  it?  A. — It  would 
have  a  di8cliar<je  on  it. 

Q. — Anythiii},'  else?     A. — I  do  not  r«'nieiiiber. 

Q. — Yon  do  not  remember  when  yon  last  saw  i(?  A. — 1 
do  not. 

Q. — You  i)reserved  all  the.se  bills  down  (o  as  low  as  ^l.r>(l 
Ihat  were  furnished  the  "Carolena."  A. — That  was  on  ac- 
count of  (he  vessel  beiiin  seized. 

Q. — lint  the  supplies  were  furnished  Ion;;  before  she  was 
seized?     A.— Well,  i(   was  all  in  (he  year  lSS(i. 

Q. — She  was  seize<l  in  ISSd.  and  yet  you  show  (uitiinal 
vouchers  for  liei'  e(|uii»iiient  as  early  as  FelMuary  and  March 


and   April  and  May.   in    that   year. 


A.— Y 


it    was  a 


11   in 


l.SSC., 


Q. — You   slio>v  original   vouchers  for  (he  amount   paid   at 
(he  (iiiie  wi(li  the  reii'ii»(s  upon  (hem?     A.— Kxactly 


hers  as  low    as  fl.SCi.  bii(   you  did 

(1h> 


(I. — You  preserved  \<iu( 
not  preserve  vouchers  of  (he  payment  of  iiileres(.  nor 
mor(piKe.  nor  did  you  preserve  (he  t|ui(laiice  of  (he  ii>or(- 
itajte  itself  indorsed  upon  it.  You  did  not  preserve  i(  (U-  yon 
iiave  1  At  it?  .\.—\  do  iio(  know  what  became  of  it.  I  have 
no  idea. 

Q._You  have  looked  for  i(?     .\.— Yes. 

Q. — Was  there  any  other  agreemenl  endorsed  uitoi.  iliat 
last  mortnafie.  or  any  other  writiiif;  upon  it,  except  (he  dis 
charge?     A. — I  do  not  reineiiiber. 

Q. — There  was  no  a^'reeiiieiit  between  you  and  Hecldel? 
A. — Not  that  I  am  aware  of. 

Q._^Vill  you  swear  that  there  was  not?  A.— None  to  my 
knowledj;e. 

Q._Will  you  swear  that  tliere  was  not.  whether  you  have 


remembered   it  or  not?     A. 
on  it ;  I  cannot  say. 


-I   d 


o  not    reniem 


bev   what    was 


Q. — AVhen  yon  t»oii.i1it  (he  second  share  from  I'niuliart  in 


123 


lO 


30 


50 


60 


Fohniaiy,  1885,  and  l-orrowed  tlu'  nunu'y  from  lU'chtol,  tbrro 
liixl  bi'c'n  no  si-izured  in  ISt'lirin}?  Sea. to  your  kuo\vlodj?t'? 
A.— No. 

Q.— And  yoM  and  JScclilcl.  wlicn  you  iKurowed  that  money 
did  not  con'teniiilatc  tlu'i-'  w<ftild  be  any  Heizuivs;  it  never 
(iilered  your  mind?  A.— It  did  not  enter  my  mind  that 
tliere  would  be  any  seizures;  1  do  not  liuow  wiiat  entered 
liis  mind. 

Q._At  tlie  time  you  gave  the  mortirajie  the  matter  was 
not  in  your  mind  at  all?     A.-  -Not  I  lie  matter  of  seizure. 

(^. — And  you  have  made  suih  a    careful    search  for  that 
mortfja^ie  tliat  you  have  not  been  able  to  produce  it?     A. — 
1  have  not  been  able  to  lind  it. 
ti.— And  vou  cannot  tell  when  you  last  saw  it?     I  cannot. 

(i.— And' you  cannot  tell  positively  as  to  what  ajireement, 
it  anv.  was  written  upon  the  mort^jajje  between  yon  and 
Hechtel?  A. — I  do  nol  remember  of  any  ajjreement;  I  don't 
see   why  there  shouhi   be. 

Q._nut  every  other  paper,  even  down  to  fl.St*  f<»i'  the  pay- 
ment of  money  in  connection  with  the  "Carolena"  for  sup- 
plies, you  have  brought  the  orijiinal  vouchers  for? 

.M.  Peters:— That  is  hardl>  a  fair  stat«'ment  of  the  case. 
There  weic  many  which  were  not  ori}>inal  and  which  he  ex- 
I'lained  about. 

Mr.  Dickinson:— He  has  broufrht  either  the  original  or  a 
cojtv.  (To  witness):  That  is  so,  is  it  not?  A.— I  have 
broiiRht  the  original  or  copies  for  all  the  vouchers  for  18S(!. 

Q._And  you  have  the  orijjinal  or  copy  of  every  voucher 
except  this  one?  A. -I  have  not  the  mortpifje  nor  a  copy 
of  it. 

Q. — (\in  you  tell  me,  Mr.  Munsie,  how  you  could  remembe' 
how  to  ^jet  the  duplicates  for  vouchers  ranjiin};  all  the  way 
down  to  |1. .">(>?  A.— I  had  a  little  menuuanum  book  in 
whicl!   I  enter  the  vouchors  as  presented. 

Q. — Diti  vou  alwaxs  cnler  the  vouchers  in  the  nunnoran- 
ilum  Itook  iis  they  wJ-r*'  presented?  A.— At  the  be},'inninK  of 
tiiat  ytar  I  thoujrht  I  would  U'n'm  to  keep  a  record  of  what  I 
was  doiufi  and  that  was  the  lirst  year  1  made  any  entiy  at 

all. 

Q._y,„i   Ko])*   the  nu'Hiorandum  of  the  vouchers  as  tlu'v 

were  jiresented.     .\.— -Yes. 

(^ — Hilt  you  kept  no  nu-morandum  of  the  jjoods  as  they 
wer<'  oKiired?     A. — Xo,  nor  I  do  not   <oday. 

tj.— Yon  iiave  jjot  a  book  marked  "Carolena,  188(),"  do  yon 
say  (h.it  these  entries  were  made  consecutively  from  time 
to  lime  as  the  vouchers  were  presented?  A. — .\s  the  vouch- 
(I's  'vcrc  haiuled  in  lo  me. 

Q.  -.\nd  (hey  were  made  from  (ia\  to  day  as  they  were 
handed   iti   <>ri<iiually?     .\. — Ajiiuoxinialely   sav 


(i.-  -These  on  (he  front  iia<ie  wen 


nmde  from  dav  to  dav 


just  as  they  came  in' 


I   will  not  sav  from  dav  to  day 


exactly,  but  nearly  so.  The  amounts  were  made  up  fr«nii 
this  lidle  book. 

Q. — Vou  say  that  these  entries  were  not  nmde  on  that 
tirst  paf;e  all  at  one  time.       A. — No.  they  were  not. 

Q. — Nor  on  the  second  l>a}ie?     A. — No. 

(]. — N(U'  on  the  third  jwijie?     A.— No,  not  at  the  one  time. 

Q. — .\s  you  have  already  stated  these  were  written  down 
as  the  bills  came  in  from  time  to  time?  A.— .\ii|)roximately. 

Q. — And  you  did  not   add  the  date  of  the     Mils     in     the 


memor:nidnni 


A.— N< 


Q. — Nor  the  day  of  the  payments?     .\. — No. 

Q. — When  were  (he  words  "paid"  written  in? 
time  they  were  ])ai.1. 

O. — .\nd  at   difTerent    times  as  yon   paid   (hem": 
.'i(   .lifferent  ti'ees. 


At  the 


CM, 


,   1T-»»F» 


T" 


124 


1< 


10 


20 


30 


40 


so 


Q. — >.'<>w.  Mr.  Miiiisic,  vi>u  have  itrcsciilcd  Hh'  inort^iip' 
that  was  iiuulc  for  tlic  !iii,(MI(>  lo  A.  .1.  Utrlitd.  Von  n-co^ 
iiixc  (liis  paiici-  "Kxliiltil  !)  <i  l(,"  and  I  tliinU  von  sav  vou 
liavc  i»ai«l  lliaf  niorlya ;■(•'.'     A. — 1  liavc 

Q. — IM(I  von  keep  aii.v  hooks  at  the  ihitc  von  paid  (lic 
iiioi'(}ra^:('?    A. — No. 

<i. — Did  yon  pa.v  it  in  cash?      A. — Vi's. 

(i. — l>id  von  pay  it  in  l)ills?  A.— I  do  not  rcnicinbor  wliat 
I  paid  it  in. 

(i. — Do  yon  ivnicinhcr  wliclhcr  yon  jtaid  it  in  ;iohl  or  in 
bills''     A. — I  do  not  i-cnicndui. 

Q. — Or  in  sihci?     A. — Not  likely  in  silxcr. 

Q. — Where  did  yon  ]»ay  it.'     A. —  I  do  not   renieniher. 

Q. — V(Hi  eannot  i-eiiifnihei-  whcr*'  yon  paid  the  :(>1.(MI(».  hnf 
yon  say  yon  paid  it  on  or  ahont  the  dale  ot  the  dischaifj;*'? 
A. — 1  do  not  feint  inlu'i-  where  I  paid  it. 

Q. — Was  Hechtel  present?      A. —  He  innst  have  been. 

ii. — Don't  yon  remember  the  fart  of  payinjj:  thai  ijfl.lllUi 
ont  to  disehai'fjc  that  moitjiJijAc?  A. —  I  know  1  paitl  thai 
money. 

Q. — Yon  do  not  remembei-  whether  yon  paid  it  to  him  or 
whether  he  was  present,  lint  von  ]iaid  it  to  him  dirertlv?  A. 
—Yes. 

Q. — Where  did  yon  .uet  the  cash  from  \o  '•.i\  lii'i.  whether 
it  was  ill  bills  or  in  ffold?  A. —  It  is  lia;''!y  ;■■  r  .(nestion  To 
ask  a  man  where  he  f.',ets  his    money. 

(.}. — I  do  not  mean  \vhere  yon  born  \\  !  ii,  '>.  tu\y\\\u\ii  or 
that  kind?  Unt  where  did  yon  take  ii  fr  .11  tvhen  yon  paid 
il  lo  ISeclitel?     .\. — I  took  il  onl  of  the  si  alinir  business. 

Q. — I  refer  to  the  identical  money  yon  paid  I'echlel,  did 
yon  }{et  it  ont  of  yonr  safe  (\r  ont  of  the  bank?  A. — I  do  not 
remember. 

Q. — Did  von  l;eep  any  iiauk  acconni  in  your  sealing  Imsi 
ness?     A. — Yes.  in  my  sealinir  business   I  di<l. 

Q.— When  did  yon  commence  that?     .V.— About    ISrtO. 

Q. — Now.  did  von  pay  this  by  check  on  your  sealintr  bank 
account?  .\. — No.  I  think  that  was  jiaid  in  cash,  I  am  al- 
most positive  that  was  paid  in  cash. 

(}. — (Mit  of  where  did  yon  ^^et  the  money?  .\. — I  had  con- 
siderable money  in  my  safe  all  the  lime. 

Q — Did  yoti  pay  the  money  ont  of  yonr  safe?  A. — I  am 
not  Kun:  but    I   belitvi    I  did. 

(-i. — Can  you  tell  whether  it  was  in  j;"hl  <"'  bills?  .\  -\ 
cannot. 

(i.— And  how  much  money  did  y<Mi  have  in  yonr  saf.  it  l"ti 
lime  yon  ])aid  this  !|<1,II0H?      A. — I  do  not  remenibei 

ii. — Were  you  still  carryinj'  momy  in  yonr  sife?      \.     ^■(  •! 

Q. — When  did  you  open  your  bank  account  iii  IS'.MI?  A  - 
I  do  not  remember  the  month,  but  it  was  sonu'  tiuii'  in  is:  *. 

(.i. — Have  ymi  yonr  bank  boidi  to  show  nm  at  what  dai> 
yon  opened  your  liank  account?      .\. — I  have. 

(I. — Will  yon  produce  that  book.'      A. —  I  will,  if  necessjiry. 

ii. — IJe  jfoo<l  enou<;h  to  lell  us  after  recess  the  date  yim 
opened  your  bank  account.  I  do  not  cave  to  see  tlie  inside 
of  yonr  bank  boidv,  but  look  at  it  and  ;>ive  us  Ihe  date  at 
which  yon  opened  ytmr  bank  account  in  IS!M(?  A. —  I  will 
do  so. 


i8l>,  2- 


f  Mr.   Dickinson; — ^'onr  Honours.   I    would   ralli; 

the  cross-e.xaminatiiin  of  tliis  wilm'ss  after  rece^^ 


I'oiitinne 


Cross-examination  <••'  Mi-.  Mnnsii'  resinned  by  Mr.  Dickin- 
son a  I  '2:i'i. 

Q. — The  Inst  entry  «  I'liink  on  :!  ••  pafies  shown  yon  in  the 
]ia|>er  marked  for  i«',iiilificalii"i  (ni,--  morning  by  the  secretary 
was  made  in  ISS(!',       A. — \'es. 


tiiisi 


10 


10 


30 


63 


125 

ii. — (til  I  Ik-  lirsl  tlin'i-  piip's?  A. — (Kxaiiiiiiiii};)  Drake  & 
.liickstiirs  iiiiiv  mil  liiivf  Ik'cii;  lliiil  <iiu'  item  lUiiy  not  luivc 
li<'('ii  *  iild'itl. 

(i. — 'I'liiit  is  llic  <mly  one;  (lie  (illicfx  were,  you  think?  A. 
—  I  lliiiik  Ihiit   is  till'  (iiily  one. 

(^. —  Anil  liiis  is  llic  limik  voii  riirricd  in  your  |iocki't?  A. — 
No.  I  liiKi  i*  soiiii'tiiiics  ill  my  |iiirkft,  soiiu'tinicK  layiu;; 
iiroi:ii(l  ill  my  <1(  sk. 

ii. —  ^■(lll  ktpt  it  iiliniil  yiiii  somcwlici'c?  A.— (Hi,  soiiU!- 
liiiKs  I  (lid. 

<2.-- And  villi  liiid  iiiiidi'  no  ciilry  in  it  for  ten  years,  iinlcsH 
it  l)f  that  (iiii-  of  jiiakc's.  A. —  Not  liial  1  am  aware  of,  1 
NMiiiJdiri  say  lliat   I  iiaveiri. 

Q. — At  liiat  liiiir  (ill'  bills  wire  rendered.  A. — Tiiey  were 
.•II  riMili  n  d  witliin  a  slioit  time  of  eaeli  other. 

t^. —  ^■(lll  use  a  leasoiialtly  soft  pencil.  I  s(>e.  A. — I  am  not 
Ml!-:'  wiiat   I   liid  iis(  . 

t^.      Tile  iii(!liiai.\    lead  pencil?     .\.— I   presume  so. 

il-  \  (111  snmeiiiiiis  eariied  it  in  your  pocket.  I  see  a 
iiieiii'irjii'diiiii  ill  the  hack  in  ISS7 — various  memorand.'i — a''- 
diesscs  ;iiid  mat l<  I's  ajipei'tainin^'  ,  seal  tishint;  and  the 
lial.its  of  the  fiirseal?     A.— Yes. 

(2. — So  liiat  yen  iiiiisl  have  had  il  around  with  you?  A. — 
I  piesiiiiie  I  had  somelimes.  When  I  speak  of  ISSU  I  have 
reffi-ciice  more  to  tiiose  liills. 

Q. — Now  did  you  have  this  hoidv  yesterday?  A. — I  don't 
liiiiik  su. 

Q.— Where  did  you  ^et  if?     A.— From  Mr.  IVters. 

(i.— Mr.  i'eicrs  had  it  yesierday?     A.— I  think  so. 

i]. — The  entries  are  all  in  pencil.     .\. — They  ar«'. 

Q. —  Hid  you  jiive  us  the  ihile  that  you  opened  your  bank 
act  (Mini?     ,\. — Yes. 

(i.— And  what  was  the  date?  A.— The  .'{1st  dav  of  DeciMii- 
h(  r,   I  son. 

Q.— And  at  what  hank?  A.— The  Hank  of  IJritish  <'oluiii- 
liia. 

Q.—  Yon  liave  kept  the  account  ever  since  at  tluit  bank? 
A.— \is. 

(^  —  Do  villi  k<(](  an  account  in  any  other  bank  in  Victoria 


40      or  elsewlieic?     .\. — Not  in  this  line  of  business, 
(i. — That   is.  an  individual  account?     A. — X< 


no. 


Q.— And  whin   was  il   that    von  had  the  ten   rhousand  dol- 


lars ill  the  safe 


as  iiiiich  as  ten  thousand  dollars?     A. — Af- 


ter selliiif;  the  skins  frian  the  vessels. 

(i.— Not  at  any  tiiiu'  before  ISSti?     A. — Xot  before  ISStl 


call 


<J. —  Now,  Mr.  .Miinsie.  how  many  of  these  receipts  are  diipli- 
SiiowiiiK    witness   receijils  attached   to   E.xhibit   '.).) 


A. — I  am  mil  sure  how  nianv.  Iliere  were  a  few 


t^.— \Yiiire  did  yi   .  ^ 
50      direct   exaniiiiatioii   lliei 


in  vour 


■I  I  lie  duplicates?     You  said 

e  were  two.      l>o  you     chantje     tliaf 


now?     A.— I  said  two  or  tliree,  or  several,  1  dcui't  reinemlier 
\\liicli. 

<^— Now  you  p.iid  si.xty  dollars  at  a  time  a 
iiatli?     .\.--Alioiil  s(  mi  annually. 

(^— Did  you   pay  bv  dieone?     A.— No.   I   don't 
Ihat   1  did. 

(i— Did  you    pay   by  cheiiiie  after  December.  1S!M»?     A.. 
I  do  not  reiiicmbcr. 

Mr.  IMers:— There  are  none  after  December,  18!t(). 


ceordiiiff  to  your 


remember 


ler  you     i»aid     by 


(i.— Yon   don't    reiiiember   thou;;li    wliefh 
cllei|ll.e  (u-  not?     A.— I  do  not. 

(i.— Ill   whose  hand  writiiif;  are  the  liodv  of  the  reeeiptR? 
.\.— (Kxaminiiiiii  1   cannot   ti  II  you. 

/i— ''''"'.v  iill  appear  to  be  in  the  same  handwriting?      A.— 
riiey  appear  to  lie;  I  don't   know   whose  handwrilinn. 

^^— \Yere  those  receipts  for  these  si.xlv  didlar  semiannual 
payments  given  yon  at  the  time  voii  jiaid  the  inonev?     A  —I 


126 


'>\> 


l» 


lO 


am  not  ixwlfivt'  wlu'tln'i*  tlu-y  wt-iv  or  ih)1  ;  I  jmosuiih'  tliey 
wt'iv;  I  mil  not  jtositlvt'. 

Q. — Not  iHisitivo  118  to  ixuy  out'  of  llioin?  A. — No,  1  do  not 
renu'inbor  powitivel.v. 

(f. — Vou  cannot  scloct  the  loct'ipts  that  are  duiilicatcs  in 
tile  lot?     A. — 1  oannot. 

ii. — They  all  seem  to  be  in  the  same  handwritiuji;,  wlietlier 
diiiilicates  or  not?     A. — Tliey  seem  to  lie. 

(i. — To  whom  did  vou  ajiplv  foi-  duplicates?  A. — Mr. 
Ikclitel. 

y. — Do  you  luiow  Mr.  rieclitel'a  handwritinj;?  A. — 1  could 
not  swear  to  it. 

Q. — I>o  you  know  it?    A. — 1  do  not  know  it. 

Q. — Were  there  numbers  on  the  receipts  when  you  received 
them  "numbers  one  to  eleven  inclusive"?  A. — I  do  not  re- 
nu'inlier  now;  I  presume  tliey  were. 

(). — Vou  didn't  put  tliem  on  did  you?  A. — 1  did  not  put 
thrm  on. 

(). — And  they  have  not  been   put  on  since  tliey  were  in 
2o    your    possession     have  Ihey?     A. — Not  to  my  knowleds;*';  I 
don't  remember  imttinji  them  on. 

Q. — Is  Mr.  Hechtel  enj^af^ed  in  any  other  business  except 
this  and  hotel  keepiiifj?    A. — I  do  not  know. 

Q. — He  sold  you  some  provisi(ms,  did  not  he;  a  lot  of  hams 
and  so  on?  A. — In  those  early  days  I  believe  he  kept  a  pi};- 
fjery  in  connection  with  his  hotel,  where  he  cured  hams  and 
bacon  in  connectiom  with  his  hotel  business. 

(.}. — You  d(m't  know  if  he  has  been  enpifjed  in  any  other 
business?     A. — He  was  mining;,  I  believe,  before  he  bej?au 
iO    the  hotel  business. 

Q. — Do  yon  know  who  wr<»te  the  ink  over  the  in-ncil  num- 
bers?   A. — I  do  not. 

(.1. — For  instance,  there  (showing  witness  receipts)?  A. — 
I  do  not. 

Q. — It  is  done  there  rij^ht  alonj?  isn't  it?  A. — I  can't  swear 
to  it. 

Q. — Do  you  know  how  the  receipts  came  to  Ik>  nuiiib(>red 
for  the  intei'i'st  i>ayiiients  rejfiilarly  l»y  Mr.  Hechtel  «u'  any- 
liody  i'lse?      A. — I  do  not  know. 
40        Q. — They   were   not  all   writti'U    at   the  same  time,   were 
they?    A. — Not  to  my  knowledge  they  were  not. 

Q. — Vou  tfot  them  separately  si.x  months  apart,  didn't 
vou  ?    A . — S'es. 

t^. — .\nd  were  yfui  present  when  they  were  written?  A. — 
I  was  not. 

(.}. — Tliev  were  presented  t<>  yon.  w(>re  they?     A. — Ves. 

Q. — From  time  to  time?     .\. — From  time  to  time,  yes;  pay- 
iiHMits  were  made  with  the  exception  of  a  few  that  were  mis- 
laid. 
50        Q. — .\nd  they  ran   from   'H't  for  five  years,  didn't  they? 
A  .—From  'S."). 

{}. — Have  you  any  «  x]ilanati(m  to  make  as  to  liow  they  ap- 
jiear  to  be  written  in  the  same  ink  and  the  same  liandwrit- 
in^r?     .\.— Tiiless  Mr.  IJechtel  wrote  them  himself. 

Q. — Now.  when  vou  made  this  Sisl.tHiO  mort;;aK«,  you  made 
it  upen  just  half  the  boat — iliirty  two  shar«'s.  lialf  of  sixty- 
four?     \. — Thirty  two  shares. 

ii. — ,\iid  yen  still  held  one  third  in  your  own  name  that 


r,o 


you    didn't    iiKU-tnajie?      A. — Thirty  two  shares  were  encuiii- 
liered. 

Q. — You  didn't  nuu'tfjafte  that  to  Hechtel.  .\nd  after- 
wards you  ac(inired  the  remuiniiii!;  share  from  .Matthewson? 
A. — N(»;  at  that  lime,  when  the  imMtfja>j;e  was  made  1  liad 


ac<|iiired  the  share. 

Q. — So  tliat  you  owned  the  entire  boat' 
entire  boat. 


-I  owned  the 


Q.— Hut  you  only  mortuancd  '^2  shares?     .N.— :?2  shares. 
Q,— You  j'isl  said,  as  I  understood  it  that  tliere  was  one 


127 


20 


30 


40 


mentioned? 
never  did;  I 
A.— I   didn't 


:!.iiiiii'  not  nM)iti;ii|u;('d.     Tin  re  were  two  Hliares  then  not  nioit 
quired?     A. — There  xscre  .■{2  shares  not  niortj^a^ed. 

Q. — And  the  tindividcd  liajf  of  tlie  boat  was  not  n<ort 
■^apMl.  Half  of  tlie  boat  was  covered  b.v  tlie  $l,OtM)  moit- 
j:a;j;e?  A.— I  di»n"t  iiiHlerwtan<l  .you  when  ^voii  say  "undivided 
lialf." 

(J. — Well,  lialf  tliirtj-two  sliares?    A. — 32  shares  was  en 
( inid>e:-ed. 

^i. — Was  lliere  any  reason,  wlien  yon  owed  tht^ni  a  debt  t»f 
10  ?rMif»ti  borrowed  money,  an«l  wlien  yon  owned  t\\>^  ')oal,  wiiy 
you  didn't  jnil  on  a  mortjiaye  (m  tiie  entire  boat?     A. — I  eon- 
sidere(i  security  on  tlie  :{•_•  shares  sutticient  foK  the  Unm. 

ti. — And  ISeihlel  didn't  ask  for  it?  A. — I  don't  remend>er 
what  1h'  asked  for.  ( 

(/.--lie  didn't  ask  for  any  more,  did  he?  A.- Not  to  my 
i-e<t>lli'(tion. 

i) — At  the  time  of  the  Riving  of  the  mortc.in  s  did  Heehtel 
knov/  that  you  were  fjoiufr  into  the  sealin*;  business?  A.— J 
(ohldu'i   answer  that  (luestion. 

ii. — Did  you  lie.ir  his  American     citizenship 
A.— I  did  not. 

(■i. —  You    never  did?     A. — I   wouldn't  say   I 
Ii.ive  Inter,  but  J  did  n<tt  know  it  at  the  time. 

Q — At   the   time  of   ifiviuff   the   mortfraKes? 
know  at   tlie  time  of  j^iviiiK  the  mortgafies  what  uatiomility 
he  was.     I  can't  swe.ir  to  it. 

(.}. — You  can't  swear  to  his  nationality,  of  course.  I  am 
not  askiu}!  you  that.  Hut  did  you  hear  his  citizenship  dis- 
cussed?    A. — Kecentlv    I    have. 

(-1. — Had  you  heard  it  discussed  at  tliat  time?  A. — Not  at 
that  tinu'. 

<i. — Had  you  heard  anything  about  his  citizenship?  Not 
that   I  remember  it. 

ii. — You  had  known  him  then  since  1.SS2?  A. — Hardly 
liiat;  I  think  about  's:{  <u'  'S4. 

(i.— 's:{  or  'S4,  and  you  had  business  dealings  with  him,  and 
you  had  not  heard  it  discussi  d  whether  he  was  a  citizen  or 
not  of  Her  Itritaunic  Majesty's?  A. — I  don't  know  as  there 
was  any  circinnstances  arose  that  would  raise  the  question. 
1  don't  remember  of  anythiuu-  that  would  cause  the  question 
t(»  ('(uiie  u|)  of  what  nationality  he  was. 

Q. — Hut  usually  you  know  yotir  fellow  citizens  about  here, 
don't  you,  whether  ihvy  are  Rritish  subjects  or  Americans? 
A. — I  know  some  an-  Itrilish  subjects;  others  I  do  not;  I 
couldn't  sweai'  what  they  are. 

<2. — And  you  wouldn't  swear  that,  although  Uecbtel  was  at 
llie  time  of  (his  transactiim  a  friend  of  yours,  you  had  not 
heard  the  subj.'ct  of  his  citizenship  nu'ntioned,  and  did  not 
enquire?     A. — Not   at  the  tiuM',  no. 

t^ — Now,  you  have  jait  in  a  bill  for  payment  of  Warren 


for  going  to  Ottawa'; 


A.— Yes. 


ti- — Was  that  the  lirst  time  that  you  went  down?   A. — Do 
you  mean  <'apt.  Warren  here  now' 


Q.— Yes. 


-I  don't  know;  1  can't  answ* 


Q. — Did   you   pay   him' 


-I   don'l    remember   the  time 


the  receipt  will  will  show  the  time  nlien  he  as  paid;  1  think 
it  as  about  'X~. 
i}. — Did  you  make  up  a  statement  of  your  claim  for  him 


(53    through  Mr.  Drake?     A.— Not  for  hi 


m;  no. 


Q. — Did  vou  make  up  any  statement  of  claim  for  Warren 
to  take  with  him?     A. — No. 

Q- — You  said  he  took  with  him  some  of  tlnw  receipts? 
A. — He  took  the  reci'ipts  with  him,  but  there  was  no  state- 
ment of  claim  made  to  be  forwarded  with  h 


ini. 


Q.— What  did  he  go  for?  .\.— A  claim  had  been  put  in  iu 
the  Autumn  of  ISStt.  prepared  by  Drake  &  Jackson. 

(i.— What  for?  A.— Claims  against  the  United  States 
<iovernmeul. 

Q.— Where  is  that  statement?    A.— I  don't  know. 


120 


m 


,  I 


i  ' 


<«« 


Q. — Iliivfn't   vdii  seen  il   siiicf?     A. — I   have  tuti. 

ii.~\>u\  viMi  H\>iu  il?      A.— I  ,lu  not  rcinciiilifi-. 

^i- — Voii  (Ion  I  rciiicinhcr  whcllici-  voii  sit^iUMi  i(?  A. — I 
tloii't  i-cnicnilKT,  no. 

Q. — Do  von  icnu-nilx  r  the  anionnt  of  il?  A. — I  do  no(  rc- 
niciiihcr  llit>  cxucl  iunonnl. 

(i.  — Well,  jiboul?     A. —  I  could  nol   sa.v  now. 

(i.— ("jin't  y»»n   sav     aboul?      .\.— No,  "l    i|o  nol    icincinbcr 
now;  I  have  not  seen  (lie  ciaini  siinc, 
lo         ti.— Wlial  was  il  foi  ?     .V— A  sci/.nic  and  dt'ti-ntion  of  (he 
csscl,  I  prcsnnic. 
il. — Seal   skins?    A. — Seal   skins 

il- — NVIiiit  did  von  pnl  in  lli<-  vainc  of  llic  sliip  at?  A. — 
I  don'l  icincnibci'  now;  I  tliink  il   was  flOOO. 

Q.— You  made  thai  slalcnnnl  lhi'on<;h  Mr.  Hmkc?  A.— 
I  lliiiik  so. 

il- — •'<'<    iiH'   refresh   your   incnioiy   by   your   own    voucher; 

now  look  af  I  he  bill  rendered  by  .Mr.  I'jrake.  declaration  and 

two  <-opies.\Vhal    was   that    that    he  char<;ed  you    for?     A. — 

20      (Kxaniiu);  bill)   I  jiresunii'  this  was  for  iireparinj.'   the  'laiins. 

Q- — Ami  whal  was  youi'  claim  for.  d<m't  you  rei  nnber 
what  yon  put  the  value  of  your  ship  in  at  that  time?  A. — I 
wcddn't  swear  lo  il;  I  have  not  seen  the  claim  for  so  loufj. 

il — Did 'you  luit  her  in  any  less  than  you  do  now?  A. — I 
don't  think  so;  I  do  not  remember. 

il. — Did  you  put  her  in  at  all?  A. — I  wouldn't  even  swear 
to  that. 

il. — One  was  sent   (o  the  Ministi  i   of  Marine  and  Fisheries, 
was  il   not?     .\. — Yes.   I  understand  it   went   to  the  Minister 
30     of  -Marine  and  I'isheries. 

il. — And  yon  don't  know  the  amount  of  the  claim  wh;ch 
yon  made?     A. — I   wouldn't   swear  lo  il ;  no. 

il. — And  you  (hni't  know  what  you  complained  of?  A. — 
Of  course,  for  the  sfizure  and  delenlioii  of  the  vessel  and 
carjro. 

il. — Did  y(ni  make  a  claim  (hen  for  the  future  catch,  what 

yon  niiuhl  have  cau};:lit  in  1SS7  if  you     hadn't     been  taken? 

.\. — I  think  thi're  was  an  amount  put   in  for  the  j)rospectnc- 

ju'otil  f(U'  the  followinji  year;  I  have  a  faint  recolk-ctiou  thai 

40     there  way. 

il. — Did  yon  j-ay  Warren  for  )A(>in}i  down  more  than  once? 
A. — Only  once. 

(i.— And  that  was  in  issy-'  A.— 1  think  1SS7;  I  won't  be 
positive,  but    I   tiiink   il    was  in    ISS". 

Q. — JIow  much  was  he  paid  by  you  altop-ther?  You  ])ai<l 
this  $n((  od<l,  or  $:>."i(l.  whatever  it  is.  as  your  projtortion, 
didn't  you?     .\. — ^■es. 

Q. — Amonfi     In  w    many?       .\. —  I    don't    know.     (    do    noi 
know  what  others  i)aid  him.     Tlial   was  the  receiut  he  hand- 
5*^      ed  me  tor  my  proportion   when   I   paid  iiiin. 

il- — .\  ijm-stioii  (M"  two  aiiout  |»i'ovisions.  I  notice  an  item 
here  of  ]nlol  br/ad;  just  tell  us  what  that  is?  A. — .\  pilot 
bi-.ad  is  the  bread  we  put  on  board  for  crews  when  they  are 
out  in  boats. 


il. — How  doi's  il   come 


-It   comes  in  boxeH. 


il. — Alxnit   what  sixe   Ixixes?  '  .\. — O.   various  sizei 


il. —  How  mucli  do  (hey  weifih" 


-I  don'l  know. 


(i.— ")•(  pounds  to  the  box?     .\. — They  are  from  2"!  ]iounds 


60 


perhaps,  up:  I  don't   know  how  mni-h. 
Q. — .\nd  aboul  how  much  are  thev  a  box 


and' 


-O. 


or  a  \t 
— I  don't   i-emember  what   (hey  were  in  those  years. 

il. — Yon   didn't    pay  a    very   Iar;re   price   did   yon'; 
not  a  very  larj;e  price. 

(i.-\Yhat  is  the  lar}fest  box;  how  much  poundajre?  .\. — 
O,  perhaps  r>(l  pminds:'!  am  not  sure. 

Q' — \Nell.  aboul  Ik.w  lariie  is  the  .'(I  pound  box?  A.~A 
box  would  be  aboul  !he  si/,e  of  this  stpiai'e  (referring  to  ton 
(>f  witness  box). 


129 

(}. — S(|iiiiic?  A. — \(i,  iiol  H(|iiM<';  pciliaps  iilxiiit  1.">  iiiclu's 
liijili.  Tliii)  \v()!il(l  ciisily  rcprcsciil  the  lioKoiii  board  (iiidl- 
catiiit;  l(i|t  of  wiiiK'ss  liox). 

^i. —  For  the  .")(>  |ioiiii(ls?  A. — I  don't  know  tlu'  w»'i;;lit,  that 
is  one  of  (lie  larjjcsl    Ijoxcs. 

ii. —  Do  you  know  how  innrh  a  pound  you  jtaid     for    tlnit 


lll-liK 


don'l   ■•(•nicinlici-  now. 


<i. — That  you  lpoup:ht  of  NCshit  &  <"onii)any".'     A. — I  Iiavc 
fori^oltin  for  tlic  tinio  the  amount. 


•o      Ih.-l 


t^. — Kid  you  buy  it  by  the  pound  or  l»y  tlio  box?     .\. —  |{y 


ii. — What  (hies  tiic  hirjjcsl  box  cost?  A. — I  say  I  have 
forKodcn  now  thi>  price  what  liicy  wore  in  lliosc  days. 

<2. — Now,  .Mr.  .Miinsic,  lliis  ship  was  Imilt  in  ISfJl  was  she? 
.\. — I  don'l   know  wlicn  slic  was  liuilt. 

ti. — Von  (hin't  know  wiicn  sh<>  was  rt'jj;ist('rcd  as  built?  \. 
—No. 

To  -Mr.  I't'tcrs: — Tln-rc  is  no  doubt  about  tlic  r«'j;istcr  bcin;^ 
correct,  I  sni»pose,  (to  witness).     Well,  the  refjister  bciny  cov 


20     rcct.  sIk'  was  built  in  iStJl. 


What  is  her  size. 


Tile  ("oinniissioner  on  the  pari   of     Hie     I'liiled     States:- 
Wheii  was  she  built,  .Mr.  IHckinson? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — In  ISIJl.  voiir  Honour. 


U.. 


(^ — She  was  a   vessel  of  about   '{O  odd  tons  ineasiireinent. 


Wiiat   was  her  si 
remotest  i(Ua. 


the  clear— leni^th?     A.— 1  haven't  the 


Q. — ^'on  haven't  Hie  remotest  idea?  A. — No,  I  have  not 
30     l;!ken  the  ti'onble  to  look  at  the  size. 

U- — (l{cadinjr  fiom  Kcfiisterl:  "Lenjith  from  forepart  of 
stem  nndei'  the  bowsjiril  to  the  head  of  the  sleni  i)ost  45 
feet."  How  much  deck  would  HimI  <;ive  yon  in  the  clear,  do 
you  know?     .\. —  I  do  not  know. 

(i. — .\nd  what  was  her  width?  \. —  1  have  forjjotten  her 
br.adlh. 

(2. — (IvetHlin^i   ".Main   breadth    l<t   outside   phink      l.T     feet, 

depth  in  hold  fi-oin  (onna;;e  deck  to  ceilinj;  amidshij>s,  r»  feel." 

Now  will  yon  please  tell  the  ( "(unmissioners  how  iniich  of  the 

40     deck  room  these  four  canees  lonk  up?      .\. — I  cannot  do  that. 

<2- — Were  four  canoes  all  she  would  carry?  A. — 1  presume 
so,  or  I  would  have  carried  more,  or  at  hast  would  have  put 
moi'e  on  board  of  her. 

ii. — .\nd  these  were  carried  on  her  deck  were  they?  A. — 
I  do  not  know,  I  presnnie  so. 

<^-  -Wei-e  yon  ever  abii.ird  of  her?     ,\. — (Hi,  vto". 


60 


(2.— -Vfter   she   was   lilted     out?     .\.— I 


whet  III  r  I  wa,s  or  not  after  the  ca 


(.1)11  I      reineniber 


noes  \vere  put  into  her. 


l^ — .\iid  you  can't    tell   wlielher  you  ever  saw   the  ca.. 
50     or  not  on  tin    ship,  can  you?     .\.—\  wouldn't  swear  even  to 


:lial. 
ii. — VoM  wonhlii't  swe.-ir  thai   tin 


boat   \>oul(l  \i 


\. 


allocs  were  ever  on  the 


<^ — .\i!d  all  yon  knov.-  .iboul   II 


le  canoes  beini;  on  the  boat 


was  from  il;e  report  of  (he  captain?     .\.— The  report  of  tli 
— well,   I   don't    know   who  it    was  reported.    F   presume  they 


wt  111  on  board;  they  had  us<  d  llieiii  for  seal 


<^ — Vow.  did  you  evei' 


see  her  cabin 


A.— Vi 


<i  — Was  that  above  the  lUck?  .\.— I  have  JnsI  for<j;otl(4i 
how  her  cabin  went,  whether  it  was  what  we  call  a  lliisli  deck 
t)V  not. 

«>.--llow  laif-e  was  llie  cabin?     .V,— Oh.  !  don't  renu'inbrr. 

«^-\\  as  Iheie  anv  jdace  forward  for  the  men  to  sleep?  A. 
—  I  think  (|uile  likely:  f  expect  there  wa 


(i. —  Von  don'l  Kno 


-F  don'l  know. 


(i.— You  boiiuhl  the  ship  withiMit  lookiii},' at  her,  did 


von ; 


0 


130 


1  ;  I 


lii 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


wciT  (|iijirtcrH  for 
II     fort'iiiMtli'     iiud 


Q. —  Didn't  you  Hud  out  wlictlu'r  tlu-rt' 
till'  iiHMi  tlu'iv?  A. — I  jUi'NUiiii'  »lu'  had 
i-iibin,  the  Hiiinw  as  any  othi-i-  vi-sscl. 

(2. — You  can't  ti'll  how  iiiurh  room  that  took  up'.' 


A.— I 

tht're 


room 


laii't. 

(i. — Now,  till'  sjtaci'  bi'low  decks,   the  foreiiiHlle,  if 
was  <me,  took  uji  some  iimuii,  did  if/     A. — It  would. 

ii. — And  the  cabin,  if  there  was  one.  took  up  some 
did  it  not'/     A. —Yes. 

Q.— Of  the  full  length  and  width  of  the  boat.  There  was 
no  hidd  room  on  the  side  of  the  cabin  or  the  side  of  the  fore- 
castle, was  there,  in  that  narrow  ship  of  lo  feet'/  A. — I 
don't  know  how  her  cabin  was  built. 

Q. — r>id  you  keeji  any  room  clear  in  the  hold  on  the  ton- 
na<;e  deck  for  the  storafje  of  seals,  of  skins'/  A. — When  a 
vessel  leaves  here  she  is  pretty  well  tilled  up  with  sni)plies, 
salt,  and  they  usually  clear  away  a  space  to  beffin  sealiii};, 
and  use  up  supj.lies  and  provisions;  they  have  salt  bins. 

Q.— They  havi'  salt  bins  for  the  stora<re  of  the  seals'/  A. — 
Yes. 

Q. — About  what  are  the  size  of  those  salt  bins"/  A. — It 
depends  upon  the  size  of  the  vessel. 

Q. — Don't  you  know  what  salt  bins  you  had  on  the  "Caro- 
lena""/  A. — I  don't  remember;  I  had  nothiu};  to  do  with 
buildin*!^  her,  or  layiiifi  out  the  plans. 

Q. — You  didn't  know  much  about  the  "Carolena,"  did  you, 
Mr.  Muiisie'/      A. — In  a  f^eneial  way  only. 

ii. — Did  you  ever  see  Uechtel  on  her'/  A. — 1  wouldn't 
swear  that  he  wasn't  on  her. 

(.1. — You  didnt  know  much  about  her,  did  you.  Don't 
know  the  size  of  her  labin  or  whetlier  she  had  a  forecastle 
ov  not'/  A. — I  don't  know  as  there  is  any  man  livinji;  to-day 
who  would  swear  to  the  size  of  her  forecastle  or  cabin,  or 
even  if  she    had  any.     I  fancy  she  was  like  other  shii)s. 

H. — The  best  you  can  f^ive  us  is  your  fancy'/  A. — She  cer- 
tainly had  a  cabin;  I  was  in  her  cabin. 

(J. — You  can't  remember  alimit  its  diineiisidns'/  A. — 1  dii 
nut. 

(J. — You  cannot  remember  the  dimensions  of  the  salt 
A.— No. 

ii. — Did  they  carry  salt   in  llic  salt     bins     or    keej) 
(•mi»ty'/     A. — ().  they  carried  salt   in  them. 

Q. — And  were  the  juovisiims  such  as  you  sliipped  and  suj)- 
plies  cai'ried  on  her  tonua^;!'  deck  or  on  tlu'  main  deck'/  A. — 
It  would  be  under  the  deck. 

t^. — Well,  you  shipped  on  the  "rarideiia"  40  boxes  of  jiilot 
bread,  didn't  ymi'/      A. — I  don't  remember  no\.'. 

il. —  Toil  can't  remember  liiese  tiiinys  witliout  looking;'  at 
vour  vouchers,  can  vim" 


bi 


them 


It 


A. —  I    wouldn't    like  to  say. 
says  forty  boxes  of  bread  (referrinij;  to  voucher). 

Q. — You  i»at  that  on  board  of  her.  didn't  you'/  A. — That 
went  on  board  of  her. 

ii. — Can  you  li>.^ure  about  the  poundage  in  the  boxes  in 
your  bill'/     A. — No,  I  wouldn't  like  to. 

(.i. — Were  they  not  the  larj-csl  size,  10  boxes  at  'ti\  jMiunds 
eaih'/  A. — That  would  be  about  two  dollars  and  a  half  a 
box. 

ti. — Were  they  or  were  they  not'/  A. — (('(aiipuliii;;)  -lust 
two  (hdlars  i.nd  a  half. 

a— Was  that  liKht  then'/     A.— That  would  be  lijibl. 

Q. — Fifty  pounds  in  each'/  A. — I  am  not  f;'^'","  •'"' 
weifrht,  it  is  the  price  jier  box. 

ti- — Well  the  pilot  bi-ejid  was  stored  on  (he  ship  in  tiie 
boxes,  wasn't  it;  you  didn't  lake  it  oat  of  the  boxes  and  put 
it  in  bins'/     A. — No. 

<^ — It  was  stored  in  the  boxes  and  shipped  in  boxes,  wasn't 


A.— Y 


es. 


131 


A.— It 


20 


(2.— And  put  (iii  ilic  loiuiiijjt'  deck?  A. — I  doii'l  know  what 
^vou  term  lonnsi;;)'  deck. 

Q. — Tlu'ic  is  (inl.v  one  lu-low  I  lie  nijihi  deck?  A. —  In  (ho 
hohl  we  call  it. 

g.— Well,  in  lh«'  hold?     A.— Yes.  under  deck. 

i}. — Von  look  flcvt'ii  men.  didn'l  von?  A. — I  Itflicvc  llicii' 
was  t'lt'vcn  men. 

ii. — And  she  t;ol  otT  on  In  r  sfalinj;  vovajic  some  lime  in 
Ma.\  ?      A.— About  the  iMMli  of  .May,  I  Ihiiik. 

(.1 — And  the  scalin;;  season  ends  when?  A. — No  stated 
'°      link'  for  the  close  of  (he  season. 

(i. — Vou  ex|»(e(  (lieni  hack  about  when?  A. — The  la((eM 
|)ar(  of  (>c(ol)er. 

(i.— luclndinfj  the  sailiiiy;  (inie  up  and  saiiiufi  lime  back? 
A.— Yes. 

(i. — And  how  lonjj  does  il  lake  to  sail  down?  A. — From 
V2  (o  I'll  da  vs. 

<i. — ^'ou  also  put  on  5  barrels  of  beef  accordinj,'  to  vonr 
voucher  from  Heek  it  Co..  coined  beef,  j»acked  in  (he  oidiii- 
ar.v  size  lar!,'e  whiskey  b.-Miels?     A.— 20(tiionnd  banels. 

Q.-  And  y<»u  itu(  in  two  barrels  of  corned  ixtik,  didn't  vou? 
A.— Yes. 

(i.— About  the  same  sized  barrels?      A. — About  the  same. 

Q.  -And  you  put  in  71!  what  of  beef,  7(i  pounds,  I  siipjiose, 
fresh  beef?     A. — I  su])|iose  so. 

Q.— That  was  from  ISeak  &  Co.  Yon  also  i)ut  aboard  (»((() 
pounds  of  ham,  didn't  yon?     .\. — Ilams,  yes,  sir. 

(i.— And  (;S2  pouinls  of  bacon.  You  boujiht  that  of  Mech- 
(el?     A— Thai  is  ri<;hl. 

Q— Thai  went  aboard  as  jiart  of  Ihe  supplies?  A. — I'art 
of  the  sMpi)iies. 

(i.—  In  addition  to  the  10  boxes  of  pilot  bread,  you  <;<)(  from 
another  i»erson  5  boxes  of  pilot  bread,  didn't  you?  A.— From 
who? 

g.— From  an<)ther  person?  A.— I  dcm't  remember  now,  I 
havn't  looked  over  the  vouchers 

(i-— And  (hen  you  thou},'ht  you  would  add  another  barrel  of 
corned  beef,  didn't  yoti,  which  you  «ot  from  Heek  &  Co.?  A. — 
I  don't  !<'nieinber  (examininf;  vouchei).     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  -And  (hen  yt>u  j;o(  some  :Ui.l  i»ounds  of  fresh  meat, 
didn't  you?     A.— (Examinini,'  voucher).     Yes. 

Q- — And  M  iMiunds  of  o(her  meats,  is  that  rijj;ht?  A. — 
(Kxamininj;).     That's  riffht. 

ti.— And  then  ycni   had  six  barrels    of    salt,    didn't    vou? 


30 


40 


60 


Three  barrels  fr(nii  (he  "rathfinde 
—Yes. 

(i.— And  what  was  that  ]>acked  in? 

Q. — How  much  in  a  sack?    A. — I  fi 
am  not  sure;  I  am  not  positive. 


-1  mean  three  tons?    A. 

A.— Kacks. 
uicy  '2m  pound  .sacks,  I 


50  Q.— If  they  were  liOO  ]K)iind  sacks  it  would  take  (en  2(10 


pound  sacks  (o  a  tc 


tn 


A.— Yes. 


Q.— And  if  you  took  three  (ons  it  would  take  .'SO?  A  — 
ThiHv  sacks. 

(i.— And  if  you  took  six  tons  it  would  take  (10  sacks  at  200 
pound  each?      A. — Yes. 

(i. — Those  were  all  pni  under  deck.  I  sujiimse?      A. — Yes. 

(i.— Then  yon  tr.ok  !.->  barrels  of  (lour,  didn't  von,  on  the 
"Carolena"?    A 


fExamininj;  voucher).     Y'ei 


(i.— And  you  ord«'red  100  pounds  more  of  corned  meat?  A. 
— (Kxamininu:)     No,  thai  is  corn  meal. 

♦i- — Vou  took  100  pounds  of  cornmeal?      A. — Kvidentlv. 

Q.— And  100  j»onnds  of  oat  meal?     A.— Yes, 

(i.— Then  you  took  live  mats  of  rice?  How 
A. — About  50  pounds 


much  in  a  nmt? 


ISO 


ti.— And  (hen  liow  many  beans  did  you  take,  three  sacks  of 
I)ounds  each?     A.— Three  sacks  ISO  pounds  all  told. 

A. — (Examiniufr 


(2.— Then  you  (00k  (w(»  (ubs  of  bu((er? 
voucher)  Yes. 


132 


'  I 


I 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


00 


(i. — And  two  kc){s  of  s.vni|»?     A. — Tlntc  kens  of  Hynip. 

(2. — And   (wo  liinclH  of  siipii?     A. — Yt  s. 

i}. — And   how   nin<  li  liiirlcvV     A. — :.'."(  pounds. 

(2. — And  llicn  von  taiTicd  1,I(M»  p;jillons  of  walcr?  A.I 
don't  rcnH-nilit'i'  how  nninv  naHons  of  wiilcr.  Tlicic  wcio  two 
tiinks. 

i-i. — And  von  Inid  tanks  fnll  of  watcr'.'.V  —I  don't  ivnu'in- 
ln'i'  tlu"  size. 

iy — llclow  decks?     A. —  No,  thcv   wtTc  on  dcrk. 

t^. — How  nian.\  pounds  of  shot  did  vou  ha\<''.'  A. — There 
wei-e  about   1(1(1  pountVs  of  sliot. 

(.i. — Anrl  liow  ininh  jiowder'/  .\. — There  was  abont  ITiO 
pounds  of  jiowder. 

iy — Now.  vo(!  Inid  some  veiy  tine  sjuns  (here.  !?.")(!  apiece.  I 
(hink     A. — They   were  jjood  >:((ns. 

(j. — Vou  liad  also  lono  poninls  of  jMitatoes.  had  yon  not*' 
A. — I  don't  know  how  many  potatoes. 

(i. — Kxainine  (lie  \oucliei''.'  A. — Ves,  l(l(M(  ptuinds  of  po- 
tatoes 

<j. — And  you  had  on  board  all  told  11  m(  n  to  feed;  is  that 
i-i},'ht?     A.— That  is  litfht. 

(i. — Now,  did  y<»u  have  any  other  iiuns  but  the  shot  <,nins 
at  $.■>((  aiiiece,  and  the  four  ritles  at  «:!(•'/  A.—  1  believe  their 
was  one  ride. 

(}.— What  kind  of  a  rille  was  it?  A.— I  never  saw  it;  1  sc; 
it   invoiced. 

Q. — \ow.  when  we  spi-ak  of  tlie  *r>(t  iruns,  (hey  were  very 
line  tiuns,  weren'(  they?  A.  -No.  *ri(l  does  not  jjet  a  vt  ly 
i;(>od  ifun. 

().— Is  it  a   brc<Mh  loader?     A.— A    breech  loader. 

(i. — Shoots  a  cartrid<,^e?      A. — A  carlrid;;e. 

(/. — And  the  four  rilles  were  breech-loaders?  A. — A  Win- 
chester— I    hav-   forirolten    the   nuike 

Q._Tliey  shoot  a  Cart  rid  fie?       A.— Siurot  a  cartridge. 

iy — |)i)]  yon  have  any  otlier  ffuns  on  board?  .\. — 1  d<urt 
i-eiuember. 

(i. — Now.  did  yon  or  did  you  not?     A. —  I  do  no(  reuwinber. 

(J.— Will  you  (ell  me  what  vou  were  doin^  with  L'(MI(»  niili- 
(ary  •,'nn  caps?  A. —  I  believe  (hey  were  what  we  call  the 
iMunb  K'lii;  "^''  il    i"  '"f("y   weadier  callinj.'   the  boats. 

(^.—Where  was   (hat   sitini('(l?     A.— On   d<'ck. 
ii. — .V  nd  (iiey  use  a  caji?     .\. — They  us{    a  cap,  I  believe  of 
soiiM'  kind. 

Q.— Xow.  did  you  have  •JfMKi  of  (liose  for  (ha(  j^nin?  .\.— I 
!lon'(  i('me(uber  myself;  I  couldu'l  say.  The  Captain  usually 
o/ders  those  things. 

(i. — Was  (hat  Lniu  on  tiic  Itoat  when  nou  bouv:h(  her?  A. 
—  [  think  that  was  the  nun  fi-om  tiie  "Mary  Taylor";  I  am  not 
sure.  They  calbd  it  a  riM",  but  I  (hink  i(  was  a  sort  of  a 
l>oml»  nun,  a  whale  jiiin  of  some  kind;  it  is  called  a  rille,  I  be- 
1 


leve. 
(>.— Yon  think   dial 


\\a 


s  the  one  from  (he  "Mai-v  Ta\lor"? 


-I  •hiiik  dial   \'as  the  one  from  (he  ''.Marv  Tavlor. 


Q.-Wi 


IS   dial    portable 


.\ .— Y( 


(i  — And  vou  nefde.l  :.'(|(|(l  caps  for  tlia(?  A.— I  d<nr(  know- 
how   iimny   they    needdl. 

(). — Did  i(  make  a  louder  i(  por(  than  the  other  fiiins?  .\. 
— Yes.  .\t  the  |tiesent  time  we  use  cannon  made  especially 
fe'-  di;'(    business. 

<>. — Xow.  vou  pu(  in  this  nowder  at  70  cents,  a  hundred 
iKMinds.  SsTtt?  .\.— That  is  what  Mr.  Ward  cliarjred  us  Utv  it, 
7(1  cents  a  pound,  less  '>  ]ier  cent. 

i}. — Mo  V(Mi  know  anythinji  about  the  price  of  powder,  ex- 
cept   in    that    bid?     .\. — This   was    I'^njrlish    powder. 

<J|. — Worth  inoi-e  than  other  [mw.Oer?  A. — Tt  was.  Mr. 
Ward  is  here  and  can  testify  to  that  bill?  It  was  EiiL^lish 
powder  come  in  cakes. 


A— I 

iisiiitlly 


rjivlor"? 


i'{  know 

IMS?      A. 

<iM'(iiin,v 

IhiihIicmI 
IS  fill-  it. 

wh'V.  <'X 

iis.     Mr. 
Eiis.'ilisli 


10 


20 


■f!il 


t33 

(2.— Ami  vttii  [tiiid  7(1  nMils  si  |ioiiii(l  for  it?  A.— Ltws  .">  per 
(•nil 

(i_N,,w.iM  :nl«lili(iii  to  iliis  |(i«\isi<in  llial  \oii  lia<!  tilMmnl 
In.ii-  llir  ><:iiliM-;  liiiu-  ill  -Mi'V.  Iliion-jli  .Imic.  .Iiil.v.  Antriiwl. 
Sfiiifitilifr  iiiHl  OcIoImt.  Mill  (lioiip:lil  llit'.\  mahi  run  slmil 
s(i  Mill  friivc  llii-  <.'ii|iiiiiii  i**"'"!  ninic  in  iimiiii'v.  to  Imv  fmtlicr 
liioviMJons?  A.-No.  I  \\oii!<lii"t  sav  llnil.  It  wii«  <-iikIo- 
iii.iiv  (o  >;ivc  llicni  some  inonc.v  in  ciisc  <if  (lislrcsH.  Tln-y 
hiltriil  lie  strandi'd.  sliijiw  iccl.cd.  We  always  piovidcd  llii'iii 
with  some  money. 

(^._l(,il  you  did  ;;ivi'  tin  III  #ritMI  ill  rase  lie  should  run 
short  of  anything;,  or  lie  in  distress?     \. — Yes. 

Q.— .\nd  Uieii  }>ave  him  an  advamc  on  his  watjes  of  aliotit 
f:{(M»  more?  A. -He  had  lieeii  from  .March  in  my  ■employ, 
and  he  had  earned  a  ]iortion  of  this  pay. 

(i.— Hut  you  fiave  it  to  liiin?     .\.— I  eertainly  iiaid  him. 
(i.— .Vnd  he  went  olf  with   that    in   addition   to  the  #ri(H»? 
.\.— The  fntlti  wuh  not  rharp'd  to  him. 

(^._|{,it  lie  had  that  in  addition  to  the  frilMI?     A.— Y<s. 
Q, — Did   Indian  .liinmy  send  you  a   liill?     .\. — No.   1  ninde 
liiat  liill  out  nnself  when  I  paid  him. 

(i.— He  eaiiie  here  to  ifet  his  pay'.'  .\. — liininy  ranie  into 
the  store.      He  eaine  up  on  the  vessel. 

Q. — I  show  you  Claim  Xo.  1,  \oii(liers  I  to  oil  inclusive,  ex- 
hibit 10  (voucliep  I'll,  in  whose  haiMlwiiliiif?  is  tliat?  .\. — (Kx- 
aininiii<!:l  The  hill  is  made  liy  Caine  &  Munste. 

i^. — .\re  the  wor<ls  "Accimnt  of  scl;oi  in  r  'Cniolena'"  jiiit 
in?     .\. — No.     That  is  in  my  own  handwiitinjj. 

(i. — When  did  you  put  that  in"'  A — I  lliink  when  it  was 
lemh'ri'd. 

(i. — And  is  all  the  handwi'itini:  like  that,  on  any  of  these 
bills,  your  own?     A.- -I  wouldn't  say  so 

(i. — An  oii<?i:ially  iendeied  il  was  rendered  *>  ("arne  & 
.Munsie  was  il,  and  yon  ad(h'd,  ".Account  of  s-chooiier  '('am- 
iena'  "?     .\  — I  did. 

ti.— Now.  .Ml'.  .Munsie.  I  think  you  liave  stated  that  the 
"I'alhtinder"  or  the  "riii'olena"  nii<iht  have  •;oods  charfjed 
to  them,  or  rather  for  Ihein,  and  tlien  they  would  divich-? 
.\. — That  has  been  the  case  in  some  instances. 

(i. — The  froods  would  be  exchanged  and  transferred  to  the 
other  shiji?     .\. — Yes. 

Q. — How  fre(|iieiitly  is  that  the  case?  .\.— Not  verv  fre- 
(jiiently. 

Q. — l>id  il  iici-ur  as  to  Uie  season  of  1SSI!?  A. — So  far  as 
films  w;is  concerned,  sliot  and  salt. 

Q.—  Had  you  no  tiook  like  this  with  reference  to  the 
schooner  "Pathlinder"  like  tiiis  marked  "I'arolena"?  A. — No 
I  ha  e  not 

ii. — Y<iu  have  no  licok.  cxc*  ]it  in  the  "Carolini"  case,  like 
this?     A.— No. 

i.}. — Have  yo'  any  inemorandiim  taken  like  this  of  the 
"Pathtinder,"  cept  what  is  in  that  liCi.-  I  i<dv  there?  .\.— 
Kxceiit  wha.  IS  in  thai  little  book  thei.' 

(}. — The  "I'arhfindei"   was  owned   bv   Carne  &   Munsie? 
A.— Yes. 

(i. — IMdn't  Came  »*t  .Munsie  keeji  a  book  jiccoiiut  of  the 
■•I'athhuder"?  .\.— Carne  &  Munsie  was  a  sejiarate  and  dis- 
tinct business. 

Q. — Hut  Carne  »*t  .Munsie  owned  the  "rathfinder."  did  they 
not?     .V. — Yes.     Not  Carne  &   .Munsie  as  a   firm. 

Q. — Tlii'ii  you  kejit  110  account  of  tlu    "rathlindcr"?     A. —  • 
Not  in  Carne  &  .Miinsie's  books. 

<}. — And  you  kejit  no  account  of  tlie  supiilies  furnished  the 
"I'atliflnder"?     \. — Ex<-ept   the   vouchers. 

Q. — Except  tla-  voiwhers  that  had  been  covered  just  as  voii 
did   these?     A.    -Yes. 

Q. — Hilt  you  had  no  ininiiti'  that  yon  put  down  when  a  bill 


»34 


iil 


Ml 


lo 


20 


30 


40 


<Mi(li-i'«-d  ill  (lie  "Piillilliitlt'i"  ('iiH«'?     A. — 1  don't   it'iiwiil- 
-llii\c  voii  l<i(ikf«l  f(ii'  Hiicli  M  lidok  lis  (IiIm?     A. — I  liiiv«> 


WIIH 
l-IT. 

not. 

(j. — W't'll,  now,  VOII  tiiiilu't  ki-pt  tinv  liookii  for  ,voiirHflf  in 
till'  Nciiiinj;  iMiHincHH  prior  to  iIiIh,  linil  von?      A. — No. 

(j. — Ami  yon  Htatcil  in  ,\i»nr  cxiiniiiiiition  tlint  ,vimi  tlioii^lit 
.von  wonlil  ixnin  to  liccp  woinc  ticfoiintH  for  voiirwlf  in  'S(i? 
A.— "StJ,  vcrt. 

(i.-^\Vlio  ]itii(l  llif  l)illH  of  tlic  "I'atlifliulcr"?     A  —I  did. 

t^. — Out  of  ,voiir  Hi'piiniti'  fniid  or  out  of  Ciirnc  &  .MiinNi«''K? 
A. — Xi'iirl.v  iilwiivH  out  of  tlio  stliooin'rH  fiiiidH,  not  out  of 
<"arm'  &  Muiisics.  Soiiictinu's  we  inav  liavi'  paid  tonipornr- 
ily  out  of  rariu-  i^  MiinNicV,  Itnt  it  would  ho  paid  batk. 

ii. — Now,  yon  Htati'd  in  your  rxainination  ycKtcrday  tliiit 
wlicn  tlio  "l'atli(id«'r"  t,MV('  tin'  "('aroh-na"  anytliiiiK.  yon 
cluirp'd  it  bark  to  tin-  "Carolf-na"?  .\. — Wi'li,  I  don't  nican 
to  Hay  tliat  wo  would  enter  it  in  all  onr  acconntH,  but  we 
dedint  HO  iiincli  from  lier  for  that  aeeonnt,  as  the  voiielierH 
winild  hIiow. 

(i. — Now,  wliere  yon  had  hilln  rendered,  Mr.  Miinnie,  to 
<'ariie  &  MniiHie,  (»r  to  .MiiiiHie,  without  the  charp'  to  the  "<"ar- 
(deiia"  on  it,  <m"  the  name  of  the  "Carolena"  beinn  mentioned, 
how  do  you  ntate  from  the  appea ranee  of  the  bills  whether 
the  HiipplieH  went  to  the  "I'atlitinder"  or  the  "Carcdeiia"'.'  A. 
— I  ordered  them  inynelf,  at  the  lime  I  knew  what  they  w«M'e 
ordered  for. 

ii. — lint  yon  made  no  minute  at  the  time'/  A. — I  would  do 
it  when  the  invoice  eaine  in,  if  I  saw  they  were  chained. 

Q. — I  speak  of  the  bills  that  came  in — the  entries  that  yon 
made  when  the  bills  came  in.  You  made  no  entries  before, 
and  yon  wtnild  make  a  minute  as  to  w'lat  bill  there  came  in. 


lods  were  delivered 
\. — I  j?eneijilly  sii- 

remember  that  yon 
after  she  was  Hiip- 


but  how  would  yon  know  whether  th 
to  the  "Carolena"  or  the  '"I'athfiiidi 
]ierinten(l  that  myself. 

(i. — And  yet  y<in  say  that  ycni  cannoi 
were  ever  on  the  "Carolena"  to  see  her 
plied?      A. — I  wiHildn't  say  I  never  was  on  her. 

ii. — ^'on  said,  did  you  not,  that  you  cannot  remember  beiiifi; 
on  her?  A. —  I  wouldn't  say  that.  I  did  not  intend  it  in 
that  way.  (i. —  Did  yon  ever  }jo  aboard  of  her  and  see  wheth- 
er supplies  had  been  delivered?     A. — Yes. 

il. — Where  did  yon  tind  these  4lt  boxes  of  jiilot  bread  stcn* 
ed.     A. — I  don't  know  as  I  found  any  place  particular. 

il. — Where  did  yon  find  15  barrels  of  (lour?  A. — It  was 
down  ill  the  hold. 

<2. — Not  in  the  way  of  ainnment,  but  did  yon  see  them  on 
the  shiji?  A. — I  wouldn't  swear  to  each  item  particular,  Init 
in  general  the  {{(mmIs  went  on  board. 

(i. — Did  you  see  them  •■<»  on  board?     A. — Part  of  them. 

(i. — Now  did  yon  see  a  barrel  of  the  Ihnir  of  the  15  barii'ls 
put  on  the  "Carolena"?     A. — Yes. 

Q. — Whereabouts  did  you  see  it?       A. — I  don't  remember. 
-Yon  remember  von  saw  it?     A.— 1  remember  the  u«M)ds 


went  there, 


(i. — You  remember  seeinj;  them  on  the  "Carolena"?    A. — 
Yes..     I  remember  they  jiiit  them  on  board,  but  just  the  par- 
ticular place  they  were  stored  I  couldn't  say. 
00  t^. — Did  yon  see  the  sixty  sacks  of  salt,  20(1  pounds  each? 

A. — I  did  not  see  it  stored  away. 

ii. — Did  you  see  the  coined  beef  and  the  corned  pork?     A. 
, — It  was  delivered,  and  I  saw  it  on  the  wharf,  to  be  jait  on 
board. 

Q. — Asidi'  from  tlie  larjje  items  as  to  which  I  have  asked 
yon,  there  is  a  very  larjje  amount  of  snpjtlies  as  to  which  I 
have  not  asked  ycni?  A. — You  see  the  vessel  left  in  Febru- 
ary to  ^o  to  the  coast  for  an  Indian  crew.  They  consumed  a 
ffood  deal  of  stntT  on  that  voyajfc. 


l.VS 


(^— lliil  liiiMi'l  .Villi  iiiiiilc  II  i-liiiiii  iipiiiiHt  iiH  for  it  nil  in  the 
HHMHIO?     A.— Kvcrvdiiii^'  fKiiii  Fcluiiiirv  to  .Miinli. 

(^ — Ami  vim  liiiii  ii  rii;iNliii;;  liri-iiHi-  friiiii  Krliriiaiv  to 
Jiiiii''.'  A.— Wlii-ii  111!'  vissi'ls  ii»  Dill  tlu'v  iiiiiNl  ahvtivN  tiiko 
II  roiisliii^;  lici'iiHf. 

ii. —  \t)i\  <l(i  II  roiiHtiiip;  hiiHiiH'ss  from  Fi'liniiiiv  to  .hiii«'? 
A. — Till'  riiidiiiii   wiiiilil. 

(y — Ami  till-  vcMNi-l  iliilii't  tiu  lip  to  lli'lirin^  m-a  iit  all,  did 
will'  niilil  nIii'  rami'  liiirk  In  iflll  ill  May?  A. — Slir  faint' 
10     liack  ill  May. 

(2.— Ami  '  imiiiilid  in  lini'  an-  all  tlic  Fi'liiiiaiy  and 
March  siiitplirH,  lii-forr  sin-  Hiiili'd  on  tin-  coiiHtiii);  trip?  A. — • 
All  imliiiliil  lIuTi-. 

ii. — Dill  till'  "Caroli'na"  do  any  tnidinp;  with  tht>  IiidianR 
on  till'  way  up?  A. — She  ini^ilit  liavi'  diiiit'  a  little,  I  wouldn't 
Hiiy  wlitilii  r  sill'  did  or  not. 

ii. — W'liiil  did  nIii'  liavi'  on  lioard  to  trade  with  Indians? 
A. — She  really  did  not  have  anything  «'Xeept  the  supplies. 

ii. — Were  I  hey  put  on  hoard  of  her  to  trade?  A. — Xo,  thvy 
20     were  not. 

ii. — What  were  they  put  on  board  of  her  for?  A. — To  po 
down  and  procure  the  crew  of  Indians,  come  hack  here  to  tit 
out  for  Itehriii;;  Sea,  supplies  enough,  provisions  f<M'  the  crew 


40 


and  llic  Indians. 

ii. — Voii  don't  know  what  tradinjj  tlu'y  did'.' 


-I  do  not. 


Q. — Never  was  reported  to  you?     A. — I  don't  rcnicmlier. 
(i. — .\ny  scaling  done  on  that  triji?     A. — I     believe     sli 
lioii};lil  from  the  Indians. 

il — And  luoiifjht  them  to  ynu"; 


30      ii.—n 


ow  manv 


-I   don't   renieiuber. 


liroii<:lit  up  siuiie  seal  ski  is. 


few  that  was 


(2. — What  is  your  estimate  for  the  catch  for  the  year  if  slit' 
had  not  been  interefered  with?  A.— Oh,  about  i:,o'(l(»,  '22  or  3 
hundred. 

(i.— Which  would  sell  at  |7  apiece?     A.— Yes. 

ii. — One  season's  tishiiif;  would  pay  for  that  entire  eipiip- 
meiil,  pay  for  your  shi|)  and  leave  you  a  protit  of  about  |!:5.- 


IMMI,  wouldn't  it?     Pay  your  :j!10,(lli(».  all   v 


our  men  s  w 


attei 


pay  for  the  value  of  the  sliii»,  at  ft.OdO;  and  leave  you  still 
I!«;{,0(M»  to  ihe  jiiHid?     A. — It  will  pay  \{T\  handsmiiely,  yes. 

ti.— .\iid  you  siiy  that  is  what  the  "rjiroleiia"  would  have 
done  ill  your  oiiinion,  aiiproximately?     A. — Ap|iroxiniatelv. 

(2.— Iliiw  niiicli  did  she  take  down  on  the  coast?      A.— Jiist 
wlial  you  see  in  Ihe  February  bills. 

Q.— The  seals  that  she  look?      A.— Oh,  I  don't  know  lliat 
she  went  out  scaliii};;  that  trij)  at  all. 

ii. —  Intil  .v|ie  iioi  in  l{ehrin«:  sea 'J 
r.ehriiiff  sea' 


-I'nlil  she  went  ti 


Q—l  understood  you  tins  morniiifr  that  she  didn't  seal  anv 


iiiilil  idle  uot   to  Mehi 


inn  Seji?     A. — I  nil  an  on     the     vova 


ii<' 


friau  the  time  slie  leaves  Victori 

sea,  from  the  time  she  left  here 

ISehriiij-  sia.  she  dmie  no  sealiny:,  but  made  a  strai},^lit  v 

from  February  to  May,  I  don't  remember  whether  she 

out  or  not  on  the  coast.     She  did  brinj;  ii]i  a  few  seals,  but 


,  until  she  Kot  to  Melinn}! 
in  May  until  she  reacln'd 
oyap' 
le  went 


how  many  I  liave  forifotU 


Her  object  in  jroinir  down  was 


ii.iiiily  to  secure  hunters  for  the  l{ehrin«  sea  triiK 
Q-— *'J1><'  eouldn't  pet  them  on  her  way  to  Uehrinp  Sea?     A. 

'  " ««>• 

iwu  and 
rs  if  he 


f)0    — ^V•'  didn't  choose  to  take  the  chances,  take  the  risk  of 


down  and  luakinf;  a  failure,  so  that  she  went  di 
come  b.ick,  .ind  I  had  arrauffed  with  white  liiinti 
could  not  secure  a  crew  of  Indians. 


Q.— Now.  Mr.  :\funsie.  she  had  can},'ht  up  to  the  time  she 


sei/.ed  on  the  1st  of  August,  r.,s7,  and   v 


catch     the  balance,  'J.'JOO 
would  be  the  averajje;  of 
as  you  understand.      She 
niifilit  liave  }iot  more. 


oil   exjiected   to 


or  2,S00,  did  you,  tliere?A.— O,  2:{(1» 
course  this  is  on  the  a|>proximat< 
mifrht  not  have  jjot  that  manv,  she 


T 


136 


M   ;   I 


10 


20 


30 


40 


5^^ 


60 


i-i. — iSiil  Ihc  "I'iilliliiMli  r"  liiid  iiiiidf  licr  ciilcli  bcfoii'  llu' 
■Jiid  of  August,  tiiHln)   she?     A.— Itfforc  Ilit-   (ill  of  Aiij;usl. 

<i. — Had  liiiislicd  iiiid  Icll  tlic  sen?  A. — She  did  not  linisli. 
Siic  h'fl  oil  iiccouiit  of  Ihc  sci/.iircs;  I  lie  vo.xiij^f  Wiis  no!  end- 
ed; bill  on  iieconiil  of  (lie  sei/.iires  slie  was  inliiiiidaled  iiiid 
left  tlie  sea  to  ii\tiid  sei/.iiie. 

Q. — She  wasn't  warned.  I  tliink?  A. — Slie  wasiil  warned. 
I  nii;.rhl  here  sav  Dial  I  did  |miI  in  a  *  hiiiii  for  iter.  Iiiil  it  was 
thrown  out   b,v   ilie  llritish  ( loveriinieiil 

ii. — .\s  a  part  id'  the  shi;!  whicii  voii  Imv,  don"!  you  usually 
iuiy  her  tackle?  A. — We  buy  her  hull,  spars,  sails,  anchors, 
<hains.  runniufr  rinfiinj;. 

Q. — And  yon  don't  esliniale  in  the  value  of  the  ship,  when 
you  estimate  her  at  f  I.OIM).  the  spars  put  upon  her  in  the 
sprin;;?  Voii  call  that  onlliltin;i.  do  ycui  ?  A. — Those 
are  the  necessary  expenditures  that  wi'  iiiiisl  ijo  throu<;li  each 
and  every  year. 

Q. — (Jo  tliroiifih  (Ui  any  ship".'      A. — On  any  ship. 

ii. — And  <io  you  esliniale  iier  hijiher  after  they  an-  done, 
iiiid  lower  before  they  are  <loiie?     A. —  I  wdiildnl  say  that. 

iy — I)',  sliiiis  (!et(  liorate  in  value  from  vear  to  vear'/ 
A.— They  do 

(i.— Will  it  cost  over  iflOII  a  t<ui  to  build  the  '■("arolena" 
as  she  is'/  .\. — I'robably  there  are  expeit  ship  carpenters 
who  can  ;;ive  better  testiiiKniy  on  that  lliaii  I  can:  I  am  not 
a  ship  carpenter. 

ii. — You  have  swcu'n  to  values,  I  am  tiniiif;  to  Si'c  what  you 
base  it  on?  A. — .\ppro.\imate  values.  Wiiat  I  ctmsider  the 
vessel  worth  to  me.  I  do  not  care  to  sell  her  at  tiiat  price, 
to  build  anew. 

Q. — <"<Mildn't' you  build  a  sliip.  of  all  new  timber.-',  at  11(10  a 
ton,  re}iister<'d  mciisuremi  lit  ?  .V. —  in  the  fall  of  ISSti.  early 
ill  the  year  ISSti,  I  wanted  to  put  another  vessel  into  the  busi- 
ness. I  made  a]>])licalioii  to  the  ship  carpenter  for  a  ti};nre 
on  a  To  t(Ui  vessel.  He  Udd  nie  liiat  he  would  furnish  iiie 
with  a  new  vessel,  iiicludiiif;  everytiiin;;  but  the  sealing  out- 
lit,  for  :|1IMIII0. 

Q. — ^^'lletl)er  in  your  valuation  of  the  '•( 'arolena"  you  have 
not  taken  into  cdiisideralion  anytiiin;i;  for  wear  and  tear? 
.\. — The  vessel  just  before  1  boiiulit  hei',  it  appars.  iiad  biM'ii 
thoroughly  overhauled — new  rii^iiinj;.  new  spars  and  new- 
sails,  in  1SS4,  and  a  ^reat  deal  of  new  work  done  to  her  hidd. 
That  was  before  she  came  into  my  jiosi-ession. 

(2. — liiit  you  put  in  about  (!|  days  for  repairinji  I  he  whole 
three  sails,  didn't  yon.  in  .May.  iSSli?  .\. —  Woii'l  you  kindly 
let  me  see  (Witness  examines  billi.  Tiiat  is  a  bill  rendered 
by  .Mr.  Sears  for  repairs  to  sails,  .\  ship  will  u<i  out  from 
here  with  a  brand  new  suil  of  sails,  and  she  may  imuiediale- 
ly,  before  she  is  away  fi'oin  \icl<M-ia  is  liours.  cany  them 
away, 

Q. — <';illiii^  your  atleiiticm  auain  to  the  receipts  attached 
to  the  mortjiafie.  will  you  please  look  at  the  I'l'ceipts.  espec- 
ivilly  tlM-  liandwriliii};,  I  will  i(  fer  you  to  a  receipt  si};ned 
•lames  Ojiilvie.  oli  .May  l!>.  ISSII.  stale  wliether  they  arc  in  llie 
same  haiidwritinj^' iis  the  receipts  for  the  niorl<ra}i-e.  voiiclier 
\o.  lit?       .\. —  I  wiuildn'l   swe.ir  that   il    was  or  w.-isn't, 

(i. —  Now  have  you  noticed  tlie  backs  put  on  these  vouchers, 
iliey  are  like  that  all  throiiuli.  do  yon  laiow  why  you  jiot  that 
jiaper?      \. —  It  was  not  juit  on  by  myself, 

<i, — Ho  you  know  where  il  ciime  from?       .\. —  I  do  not, 

<i. —  l>o  ycm  kiKtw  where  soiicher  No.  :iS  of  this  exhibit  10 
came  frcuii?     .\. —  I  do  not.  no. 

<^— Th.Mt  is  Mr,  Hechlel's  bill  isn't  il?     .\.— Yes 

i}. — Do  yon  see  il  on  the  same  jiapir  as  is  on  ihe  bac  ks 
of  all  Ihe  vouchers?     .\. —  I  d(m"l  say  il  is  Ihe  saute  paper. 

(i, —  Is  Ihat  the  haiidwrilinj;  of  licchlel,  do  ymi  know?  .\. 
• — I  do  not  know.  I  couldn't  sa\', 

Q, —  hid  yon  evei'  coircspoiid   with   him?     .\.  -  Xevt  r. 


^1 


I 


lO 


20 


40 


137 

<2.— Kvrr  s,r  liiin   wrili-?     A-  I    woiihlii"!   siiv  lluit    I   had 

III)!. 

(i.  -WliK  jiiit  him  Id  nivc  1li;il  vourlicr.  covmii},' (lie  boiiid- 

iii;,'  of  lilt-  <iv\v.  iiiiil  till-  <!(M»  I ikIs  of  hams,  ami  (hi-     (is2 

poTui'ls  of  bacon?  A.— I  i>r<'siiiiic  I  did  m.vsi'lf.  Me  wiihl 
<■(  i-taiiilv  iircsfiit  Ids  hill. 

(2.— Was  ii  i»,i'Sfnt('<l  in  l.^SC?  \.— To  the  Ix'st  of  :uy 
i;no\vh'ilp'  it   was. 

iy Aim'  von  iiavc  jjot  il  here,  I  suiijuisc.  sec  if  you  can  find 

il  on  voiii  mcnidrandiim.  sec  if  von  have  }:ot  ant  hill  from 
I'.cclit.'l  (in  >iMii-  voucher?       A.— iKxainininj;).       ^'cs.  sir. 

(J. —  Now  ii'i's  sec  it?     .\. — Colonial  llotid. 

(}._li;',4.7,-,.     That  was  written  tlicrc  in  ISSti,  was  il?    A. — 

Yes.  sir. 

(2. — Uin;lii  in  tlicrciin  tiiat  tiisl  \t\ii< — on  llic  second  itayc — 
that  was  wiilleii  there  in  ISSd.  was  il?     .\. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — And  the  eiitiie:'  lielow  il,  written  in   ll^Sd?     A. — Yes, 

lie  exandnatien  hy  .Mr.  I'cters. 


(2._.Mr.  Miinsie,  you  have  lieen  asked  (juestions  with  re- 
yard  to  the  vouchers  you  put  in.  and  parlicnlarly  you  have 
been  asked  as  to  (he  h.ickiii};'  of  these  vouclieis,  as  a  matter 
of  fact,  who  ni.ide  up  fhtse  l)ooks?     A. — .My  liookeejier. 

(^ — lie  simjdy  jiut  a  hacking  to  each  voucher,  an<l  (hat  was 
dene  by  youi'  bookkeejier  I'ccentiy?       A. — Yes. 

<2. —  i'\tr  the  purposes  of  this  suit?       .V. — Yes. 

(i. — .\nd  Ihei-e  is  no  doubt  this  is  simply  a  separate  pie<'e 

of  itajiei'  |iut  on  the  back  foi"  tiii'  salie  of  convenience,  and  it; 

30      wjis  done  by  your  bookkeeper  recently?       A. — I  jiresume  so. 

Q. — And  that  is  the  case  with  rejiard  to  lliem  all?  A. — 
Thai  is  the  case  with  re;;ard  to  them  .-ill;  I  had  nothing;  to  ilo 
wilii  [uitlin;^  I  hem  on.  Tiie  bo(d\ke4'per  did  it  for  conveni- 
( nci . 

(i- — And  with  rej;ard  to  the  ici  eipt  f(u-  f.'iOO  on  this  vouch- 
er numbei'  ;tll.  tliat  is  also  made  up  l)v  vour  bookkeeper?  A. 
—  Yes. 

(2- — .Vn«l  in  his  own  handwrilin};?      A. — Yes. 

(2. — .\nd  made  up  recently?       .\. — (2uile  recently. 

ii. — The  real  viuicher  in  (ounectidn  with  lint  was  the  re- 
ceipi?      A. — ^"(  s.  and  tliere  is  nuu'e  of  a  slalement  there. 

(2. — That  is  to  say  the  aciounl  which  says.  "Sciiooner  <'aro- 
Il  na  in  acc<iunt  wilh  William  .Munsie.  to  cash  pul  on  boarti, 
$.*i(ll).  and  one  beat  $l<Mt,"  that  is  simply  a  statement  made  up 
by  youi-  cleiK?      .\. — That  is  il. 

(2. — The  real  \(nicliei-  beinu  the  rect  iot  of  <'aptain  ()}{ilvie, 
which  is  <n-iKinaK'       .\. — Yes. 

(2- — You   were  askid   by   ^Ir.    DickinsdU    whether  yiui   ke|it 

i.Q      any  bddk  relating-  to  the  "Palhlinder"  after  she  was  bou}i;hi, 

sinnlar  to  this  little  meniurandum  book,  and  voii  said  vou  had 


60 


not ' 


A. 


(2- — .\s  a  nuilter  of  fad   1...  re  wire  other  parlies  inlerest- 


1  d  in  •'I'athtiudir"  beside 


v'llMI  SI 


•If, 


A.— Yis. 


(2- — ^'<iu  were  asked  b;  Mi.  Dickinson  wilh  ie}iard  to  cer- 
tain (|uantities  of  slulT  tii.il  are  nientidiied  in  these  vouchers 
that  weie  ]Mil  on  beard  this  shi)i,  tlinir  and  biscuits  and  all 
that  soil  of  Ihini;.  and  you  slated  that  seme  of  these  ai'ticles 
were  jMit  in  in  I'^eluiiary  iiiid  some  in  .May?       .\. — Yes. 

(2- — ^^  ill  that  dislinciiin  .apiiear  b,\   reference  to  the  vouch- 


ers 


111 


emselves 


(2- — So  that  any  jiersun  by  ;;oin};  thio"^!;  Ilu-  vr.t!<'hers  can 
see  how  much  was  supplied  in  last  I''ebiuaiv  and  how  much  in 
'M.iv'.'      A.— Yes. 

(2- — You  were  asked  with  reyard  to  ('ajilain  Ojfilvie,  and 
the  slatemenl.  as  1   understand,  which   vou  made  v 


that 


you  had  advanced  ("aplain  <).nil\ie  on  accmint  of  his  wayes. 
sonii  Ihiny;  like  $:',{){).  and  you  had  also  liiveii  him  an  advance 
of  something:  like  $TtUi\  for  ship's  aecounl.    the    answer    yo'i 


ii 


y^  a^  •  ifa 


138 


10 


20 


30 


40 


tli 


50 


60 


Were  uiulci'Htood  to  jjivi-  was.  that  the  ta|itiiiii  went  oil'  with 
th»?  |;{(l(l.  J)o  you  iiH'aii  <o  say  that  Captain  O^^iivic  looli  any 
part  of  tlu'  advaiict's  Ik-  liad  for  wa^jcs  away  witli  liini?  A. — 
No,  I  do  not  mean  to  say  so. 

y.— Hut  lu'  ji;ot  tilt'  fmtd  or  soiiicthiii},'  lilu'  tliat?  A.--Froin 
time  to  tinu  he  jfot  advances  lliat  amounted  to  soineliiiiifv 
like  |:!(l(t. 

Q. — You  do  not  wish  it  to  be  understood  that  he  took  tlial 
away  with  him?  A. — No,  1  do  not  wisli  it  to  be  understood 
that  he  took  that  away  with  him;  from  time  to  time  he  re 
eeived  amounts  that  amounted  to  that. 

Q. — You  were  asked  when  you  last  saw  this  ^(!(i"(  iuoitj;a}ie, 
an«l  you  said  yo!.  did  not  know.  Then  you  were  asked  if  ytni 
did  not  keejt  the  morlf;au;e  how  did  you  come  to  keej)  all  these 
vouchers.  I  want  you  to  e.\])lain  to  the  court  how  it  was 
that  you  succ«H'ded  in  keepinj;  tiic  vouchers  for  small 
amounts,  and  you  did  not  keej»  the  mortjrajfe  which  was  for 
a  liU'jio  amouiir.  A. — Tiie  inor(,i;a}re  beinjr  cancelled  I  jier- 
liajis  did  not  attach  very  much  imjiortanci    to  it. 

Q. — How  did  you  conu'  to  keep  the  other  vouchers?  A. — 
The  vouchers  as  they  came  in  were  put  on  a  little  siu-iufj; 
clasp  and  most  of  them  if  not  all  hajtiuMied  to  be  to}>ether. 
AVhen  I  found  the  vessel  was  seized  I  took  a  little  extra  care 
in  keejiinji  them,  after  the  claim  was  made  they  were  put 
away,  and  some  of  them  jjot  mislaid  or  never  i-etiirned  fiom 
Ottawa,  1  don't  know  which. 

Q. — As  a  matter  of  lact,  whetlur  it  was  by  accid<'nl  or  de- 
sign yoti  put  these  vouchers  on  a  little  file,  and  wlien  llu' 
trouble  came  they  were  there?       A. — A'es. 

Q. — Have  you  made  a  search  to  the  best  of  your  ability  to 
fi.id  whether  that  niortjtatje  was  in  existence  or  where  it 
is?      A. — I  have  looked. 

Q. — And  you  simitly  say  you  have 
have  not  found  it. 

Q. —  Y'ou  were  asked  by  Mr.  Dickinson  wliether 
'he  cash  or  notes  that  wei'e  paid  for  the  vessel  "(' 
ihe  first  instan<(:  were  paid  by  Came  &  .Munsie 
them.      Have  you  had  time  to  ascertain  tliat? 
not  had  tinu',  but  I  can  ascertain  that  afttrwards.       I  think 
I  may  say  positively  that  tliey  were  not.  it  was  my  own  busi- 

IU>S8. 

Q. — Will  you  look  and  see?     A. — I   will. 

Q. — Now  with  rcfiard  to  your  not  tindin};  tliat  nutrt;"a};e  for 
.ffifiT,  as  a  matter  of  fict  the  morlp:a<r<'.  I  presume  was  record 
ed,  and  also  I  suppose,  the  discliarjre  of  it  was  recorded?  .\.— 
It  must  have  been,  but  I  have  not  taken  the, trouble  to  m*  to 
llu'  custom  house  to  look.       The  recoid  will  show. 

Q. — A  reference  to  the  record  shows  that  it  is  entered? 
A. — I  i)resunu'  it  wonld  be. 

Q.— You  were  asked  whether  this  v(  ssel  or  any  vessel  as  a 
matter  of  fact  would  depreciate  from  yeai'  to  year,  and  yon 
answered  of  course  they  would?       A. — Xaturallv. 

Q. — .\s  a  mattei  of  fact  so  far  'is  tlie  "Caroh'ua" 
ed,  did  you  ke"p  her  in  ^ood  .irder  fi'om  year  to 
you   have  boufjlit   hei'?        \. — Yes,    I    would   tak( 
was  necessary  to  keep  her  u]>. 

The  romnnssioner  on  the  |)arl  of  the  I'nitcd  States: 
was  she  built  of? 

AYifness: — I  believe  of  Oreiron  jtine  or  fir  as  we  call  it 
here. 


not  found   it. 


A.— I 


any  j>art  of 
arolena"  in 
or  thron;;h 
A.— I  have 


IS  concern 
year  since 
what    cai'e 


-What 


Q. — Where  was  she  built?  \. — I  don't  know.  I  have  heaid 
she  was  built  in  the  State  of  \\  ashiufrton.  I  did  not  take  tlie 
trouble  to  look  up  the  record  myself.but  I  understood  she  was 
built  fiu're,  brou;;:hf  hei'e  and  the  duly  jiaid  on  her  and  pu< 
under  the  Mri'i«h  flaj;. 

Kxamiimtion  bv  Mr.  Feters  continued. 


«39 


A.— 1 


20 


30 


60 


Q. — You  stated  in  n-ply  to  Mr.  J)ickinson  that  ,vou  put  in  a 
•  laiiu  in  lSS(t,  and  tliere  was  some  qui-stion  as  to  wiietluT 
,vou  clainu'd  tlic  value  of  the  vessel  at  that  time  or  not.  At 
tliat  time  did  .vou  expect  you  were  f,'"'»K  to  lose  the  vessel? 
A. — I  did  not,  I  felt  fully  confident  it  was  such  an  absurd  seiz- 
ure that  the  Kritish  <ioveniment  would  make  a  jieremptory 
denuind  for  the  H'lease  of  the  vessel,  and  that  was  one  reason 
why  I  left  the  insurance  policy  on  her,  and  cannot  even  yet 
find  when  it  was  cancelled. 

Q. — You  have  been  asked  also  with  regard  to  a  certain 
amount  of  cajjs  you  had  on  board  the  shij)  for  the  boom  Kun, 
which  is  probably  the  musket  mentioned  in  the  inventory. 
As  a  nwitter  of  fact  is  the  IJehrinj;  Sea  very  foj^fty?  A. — I 
am  told  so,  but  I  have  never  been  there. 

(■i. — This  {jun  is  used  for  a  8ij;ual  gun?  A. — \'es,  for  them 
si};nnllin;/  in  th(>  boats. 

Q. — And  you  supjdy  them  with  the  necessary  ammunition 
for  that  puipose?       ,\. — Yes. 

(J. — Is  there  iinytiiin<j  unreasonable  in  havinjr  2,000  primers 
wliicli  would  be  about  two  small  bo.ves  of  caps,  foi'  that  pur- 
l»>s('?      A. — It  is  not  an  exorbitant  (piantity  at  all. 

ii — You  have  made  a  jfeneral  statement  fli.it  all  the  en- 
tries l>elow  a  certain  entry,  with  the  excejjtion  of  one,  were 
also  entered  in  ISSO,  and  you  stated  that  was  correct?  A. — 
That  was  correct. 

Q. — They  were  entered  when  they  were  j)aid?      A. — \'es. 

Re  cross  cxaminaticm  by  Mr.  I>ickins(ui. 

Q. — You  say,  Mr.  Munsie,  that  you  refused  to  pav  Mr. 
("lark's  bill  at  Sitka?      A.— Yes,  at' the  tinu-. 

Q. — \Vere  thei'e  reasons?  A. — I  considered  it  excessive.  I 
did  not  want  the  case  to  f;o  into  the  courts  of  the  I'nited 
States,  as  1  preferred  to  let  our  (Jovemment  handle  it. 

Q- — ■\nd  you  finally  j)aid  it  l>ecause  he  seized  the  skins? 
-\. — TIk  re  was  a  man  came  to  see  me  afterwards,  who  repre- 
sented himself  as  bein<j;  the  fatherin-law  of  Mr.  (Hark. 

(2. — .lust  answer  my  (piestien  and  afterwards  explain.  Did 
\ou  afterwards  pay  the  hill  to  release  your  skins?      A. — Yes. 


y(Mir  mind  as  to  the  value  of  the 

A.— Ex 


was  not    in 


agreement    stands?     A. — Yes. 


(i. — You  did  not  cli;i    u 
services?       A. — I  did  n   1. 

<J. — You  still  thoughl    ihe  bill  was  exorbitant? 
orbitant. 

(i.— The  contract  with  Mr.  IScly 
(hink?      A. — No,  not  in  writing. 

ii. — It  was  made  ujt  at  the  time,  Ihoufili?  .\. — It  ■ 
at  the  time  he  undertook  to  IcKtk  after  the  case. 

(i.— You  agreed  to  pay  him  |7.")(t?      A.— Yes.  tlia 
understanding. 

(i.— You  agreed  to  pay  him?  A.— Yes.  I  agreed  lo  imv  liim 

Q.— -Vnd   that 
meat   stands. 

(i.— You  an-  bound  to  pay  him  fTno?      A.— If  I  do 
Ihe  claim  I  might  not  iiay'liim;  I  might  object  to  it 

(i.— Hut  you  agreed  to  i)ay  him  ifiTr.O  at  all  evenis  for  \\\n 
s(  rvices?      A.— Tiiere  might  have  been  a  c«mditioii. 

(i.— \Yas  there?  We  don't  want  any  statement  as  to  what 
mights  be,  but  what  is''  A.— I  won't  state  iiositivelv  whether 
I  agreed  to  pay  him  positively  whether  the  claims  were  paid 
or  were  not  paid,  but  I  rather  think  there  was  an  understand- 
ing that  if  they  were  not  paid  I  would  not  have  to  i)av  him 
•piite  as  much. 

Q.— Did  you  name  any  amount  that  you  should  pay  him  nt 
all  events?      .\. — I  do  not  mnembei'  lii;it  there  was. 

Q.— Mat  vou  were  lo  pav  him  #750  if  vou  succeeded?  A.— 
Yes. 

(Kxamlnalion  of  Mr.  Munsie  <losed.) 


writing,  I 
was  made 
was  the 

I'i 

that    agree- 
g..t 


IH'I 


>•{ 


1    '  '  TT  •■ 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


so 


60 


140 

Mr.  I'clcrs: — I  wisli  (o  nmk*'  the  sliilt'inciil  l(»  (lie  ("oiiniiis 
sion  tliiit  with  !(}>jii-d  to  tlial  record  of  llic  title  of  this  Hhip. 
iilthou<;h  I  have  for  tlie  sake  of  convenience  jfiM'n  it  to  my 
h'arned  fi-iend,  and  also  !o  the  Coianiissioners,  I  wish  to  l>e 
nnderstood  as  slatina  thai  I  do  not  pnt  it  in  «'vidence.  W«> 
rely  on  the  document  which  1  foiineily  tendered  in  evidence, 
and  I  simply  tench'red  thai  as  a  matter  of  convenience. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  nndecstood  it  was  put  in  to  show  the 
British  rejiistry. 

Mr.  I'eters: — I  put  in  to  sh(»w  the  Itiitish  re};istry  the  docn 
ment  which  the  Kevemie  t'ultei'  "Corwin"  took  from  oni'  ves- 
sel, and  at  that  I  stotiped.  I  jnit  in  others  foi'  a  certain  pur- 
pose in  order  to  explain  certain  aitparent   inconsistencies  in 
these  bills  of  saie  which  have  been  produced  lu  re. 

The  <'onimissioner  on  the  part  of  the  rnited  States: — You 
put  in  the  license? 

Mr.  Peters: — I  I'efer  now  to  the  book  whicli  I  have  handed 
in. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  Tnitcil  Stales: — I 
iisked  for  the  registry  and  you  passed  that  book  up  as  a  nnit- 
ter  of  convenient'. 

Mr.  I'et(>rs: — 1  wanted  to  be  understood  as  that. 

The  ('(uumissioner  on  the  i»art  of  the  Inited  States: — Is 
not  that  an  exact  duplicate? 

Mr.  Peters: — So,  because  Hie  refrislry  found  on  the  shi]>  is 
as  a  matter  of  fact  of  a  later  date  than  that. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  jiart  of  the  I'niled  States: — I 
wanted  the  registry  found  on  the  ship. 


John  (iraham  Cox  was  called  as  a  wiln<-ss  on  the  |>art  of 
Her  Majesty,  and  was  duly  sworn. 

l>ir(<t  examination  by  Mr.  lUicpie. 

Q. — Mr.  Cox,  1  believe  you  are  a  member  of  (he  firm  of  K. 
P..  Marvin  &  Company?      A. —  I  am. 

Q. — In  what  business  is  that   tirm?       A. — Ship  chandlers. 

(i. — Are  they  interested  in  the  sealing  business?  A. — Yes. 
si  I'. 

Ci. — For  how  many  years?      A. — Since  1SS7. 

Q. —  1S,S7  inclusive?       .\. — Inclusive. 

Q. — I  believe  your  tirm  owns  sevei-al  sealing  vessels?  .\. — 
Six  alto^tether. 

Q.^-Are  you  aware  as  to  (he  value  and  cost  of  b(»a(s  (hat 
are  used  as  sealiiif;  vessels,  and  as  (o  what  they  were  worth 
especially  in  lSS(i  or  IS,s7?  .\.— In  IS.SS  (l„'v  were  worth 
*120. 

The  ("(unmissioner  on  the  part  of  Hie  Cnited  S(a(es:— llav<' 
you  any  knowledm-  of  (heir  value  in  ISSd? 

^Vi(ness: — No,  sir. 

Kxaniination  by  Mr    l!ei<pu'  (onliiiued. 

Q.— What  did  (lia(  include?  A.— Thai  included  just  {hv 
boat. 

Q. — How  mucli  was  paid  for  the  oars  ami  for  the  i>addles? 
A. — Well,  the  lars  lost  alxnit  twelve  and  a  half  cents  per 
foot. 

<J; — You  have  no  knowhdjie  as  (o  Hm  se  values  in  ISsfi  or  in 
1SS7?      A. — No,  I  never  |tMrcliased  any  in  (hese  years. 


-IlilV< 


lO 


20 


141 

Q. — Can  .vou  iiivi'  tis  tli"  cost  of  the  outfit  in  {jiins  and 
lioats  foi-  cacii  ("i'  ,voiir  scaling  vchscIs?  A. — 1  tliiuli  so,  sir. 
'riic  actual  cost  of  yiins  laid  flown  here  in  Victoria  was  about 
itidl.Ti"). 

(i. — What  kiiKi  of  j;uns  wcr*'  those?  A. — That  was  a 
I'arkcr  min. 

(^— In  what  vcar  was  (hat?  A.— That  would  be  in  1HS!> 
iin(l  lip  to  ISir!. 

Q. — \\'iis  llicrc  anv  dilTcrcncc  in  the  price  of  the  same  jjnn 
in  ISSd  or  ISST'  A. — The  jiric*-  would  rantre  acordinj?  to  tlic 
jriiKh'  of  the  fjiiii.       That  is  what  we  term  an  ^Hii  prade  fjun. 

<i. — That  saiiii-  nun  in  ISSti  oi-  1SS7  would  be  worth  al)ont 
tlic  same  thiiifr?  A.  -I  sujutosc  it  would  be  worth  about  the 
sanic.  I  did  not  jiui-cliasc  anv  in  these  years. 

Q. — I  believe  you  lioujilit  the  schooner  "N'era?"  A. — Yes, 
sir,  we  boii^'lit  the  "Vera"  on  January  the  KUh,  tS!H{. 

i}. — What  was  her  tonuafje?       A. — (JO  tons. 

(i.— What  did  she  cost? 

.Mr.  IMckinsoii: — I  \v»»iild  make  a  pretty  .serious  obj«'ction  to 
this  evidence  in  a  court  of  nisi  priis.  What  has  the  cost  of 
a  vessel  seven  yeais  after  the  date  we  are  talking  about  to 
d(»  witli  tliis  ca.-ii'? 

.Mr.  II('i<]ue: — I  think  we  will  be  able  to  show  that  the  cost 
(d'  these  vessels  iatl!"r  decreased  than  increased  in  1><1(;{  as 
i<unpared  with  lsS(i, 

The  ("oiiiniissi<ui(  r  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States:— What 
class  of  witness  will  you  i»r(ive  that  bv — those  who  know  Ihi; 
30     vj'lue  in  ISSti? 

Ml'.  nei(|Ue: — Vcs. 

The  ('(nniiiiscioner  on  the  jt.irt  of  the  I'nited  States: — Why 
do  not  you  ciill  tlieni  at  the  outset  instead  of  calling  wit- 
nesses to  iH'ove  I  lie  price  in  ISiC!,  and  then  calling  witnesses 
to  show  that  in  ISSd  the  price  was  higher? 

Mr.  Heicnif:— The  reason  we  called  this  witness  was  be- 
caiLxe  we  expected  that  the  hist  witness  would  have  occupied 
all  tile  forenoon,  and  this  is  the  only  witness  we  have  present. 

(To  the  witness.) 

(2.— Will  you  .say  what  the  "Vera"  cost  you  altogether? 
.\.— She  was  ahoiit  live  years  cdd  when  we  iMuight  her  and 
she  cost  us  .1^7,441.'. 

<^— Was  she  c(ip|ieri d  when  you  bought  her?  A. — No 
sir.  ' 

(i.— IMd  you  copper  her?  A.— We  cop,.ered  her  the  vear  fol- 
:;0       M>wing. 

«J.— .Viid  it  cost  how  iiiiich?       .\.— About  #751). 

(,>.— When  did  you  buy  the  ".\iinie  K.  Taint"?  A.— We 
bought  llial  vessel  in  two  uv  three  years;  we  (Uilv  pun'hased 
her.  just  a  piece  at  a  lime. 

.1  *^~""'yj.'!";''  •"''  •'"'"  '•"•'■  '■"•■  '"''••        A.-She  cost  us  at 
tlie  rale  ot  #!>.4(l(t.  and  we  did  not  imiiort  her  oiirsi  Ives 

(2.— Was  she  new?  A.— She  was  abinit  eight  vears  of 
age. 


60 


<^ — What   was  her  tonnage?  .\. — S2  I 


t  hey 
nianv 


' "'    "■""  ""  ■    ""iiinim".   .1. — ,^j  ions. 

Q.— How  long  are  these  schooners  expected  to  last  if 
are  kejit  in  g<iod  order?  A.— They  would  last  a  givat  1 
years,  but   F  would  hardly  like  to  sav  how  hmg. 

<>.— How  old  is  the  oldest  one  thai  v(mi  kn«»w  now''       \  — 

1   think  the  oldest  is  tl I'^avourite."  and  she  is  thirlv'odd 

years  of  age. 

<i.-lii   what   condition  is  she?       A.-She  is  in  verv  g..(.d 
condilion  now.  •    ^ 

(i.— Is  she  considered  a  good  vessel?      A.— Yes.  sir. 


m 


1 

'42 

Ml'.    IMckiiisoii: — We  liavc  no  cross  <'xamiiKitioii  to  mako 
of  this  witncsH.  voiir  IloiiourH. 

P^xainiiialion  of  Mr.  Cox  clost'd. 

The  Coumiissioiu'rs  tln'U  rose. 


10 


iJ     :i 


^■1 


I    ' 


20 


,^« 


40 


SO 


60 


OommiBsioners  under  the  Convention  of  February  8,  1896,  between 
Great  Britain  and  the  United  States  of  America 

Chambers  of  the  I  egislative  Assembly, 

At  Victoria,  December,  4,  1896. 

At  l(l.:$(»  a.m.  the  Coiiiiuissioners  took  their  seats. 

Air.  refers: — Yesterday  (lining  the  exatiiinatioii  of  Mr. 
Miinsie  questions  were  i>ut  t(»  him  witli  rejtard  to  a  declara- 
tion made  l).v  him  in  tlie  year  IHSCi  liefore  Mr.  Dralvc.  That 
dedanition  at  tlie  time  I  did  not  liave  in  my  hands,  the  doc- 
nment  in  wliich  it  is  contained  Iteini;  in  tlie  hands  of  tlie 
jjiinter.  1  would  like  to  }jive  tlie  Court  the  r(>ference  where 
that  do<ument  can  be  found.  It  will  be  found  in  N'olume 
5  of  the  American  reprint  of  the  procecdiiij;s  at  Paris,  pajjes 
5)»  and  (Jl. 

Mr.  Dickinson:— Is  that  the  statement  made  to  the  Com- 
missioner of  Marine  and  Fishi  ries? 

Mr.  I'eters: — That  is  the  declaralion  made  liefore  Mr. 
Drake  and  imt  into  the  case.  With  the  permission  of  the 
Court  I  will  read  that  document  now.  My  learned  friend 
{^ave  a  notice  to  produce  the  original,  but  as  a  matter  of  fact 
we  have  not  ifot  the  ori}j;inal. 

Mr.  Dickinsiui: — Of  course  I  Know  of  Ihis  cojiy,  but  I  did 
not  know  that  this  was  the  copy  referred  to  in  the  corrected 
bill,  as  there  is  no  indication  tliere  that  it  was  filed  with  the 
Commi-isioner  of  -Marine  and  Fisheries  as  that  bill  states. 

Mr.  IVters: — That  is  the  way  it  i><>t  into  the  case.  It  was 
sent,  as  a  matter  ot  fact — I  am  refeiriny;  to  the  wiine  docii 
nient,  \ dluiiie  Ci — to  the  Minister  of  Maiiiie  and  Fisheries 
senu-  time  about  its  date,  and  afterwards  transmit  led  t  . 
Kuf^land.  And  in  order  tiiat  the  ('(imm'ssioncrs  may  have 
the  niattei-  before  lliem  I  ]i!(ipose  to  read  that  document. 

The  ('(Miimissioni'r  on  the  jiart  of  the  l'iiit(d  State**. — I 
iu'esinn<>  it  is  not  necessary  for  the  steiiof;raplier  to  lake  down 
aiiythinji  more  than  a  reference  to  it? 


Mr.  IVters: 
record. 


-Not  unless  my  learned  friend  wanli   it  in  the 


Declaration  read. 

Jlr.  I'eiers: — That  was  the  declaration  I  understand  lo  be 
referred  to  in  the  cross-examinalioii.  Thai  declaration  was 
taken  (HI  the  UOIh  (tctobcr,  ISStl,  before  M.  T.  \V.  Drake, 
irher  was  a  (pieslion  put  to  .Mr.  .Miinsie  yesterday  uiion  wliich 
he  wislies,  with  the  <'onsent  of  the  ('(mimissioners,  to  make 
an  explanation.  Tiuit  is  with  rejtard  lo  the  (juestion  that 
was  ]nil  to  him  as  to  whether  all  those  entries  in  this  little 
book  he  produces  had  a<tually  been  made  in  the  year  1SS(! — 
certain  entries  in  that  book,  lie  wishes  to  make  an  explan- 
ation with  re^ai'd  to  one  of  those  eutriis  only,  and  which  did 
not  strike  him  at  the  time,  iiiid  that  is  witii  regard  lo  an 
entry,  J.  D.  Warren,  l."i2.  which  ajipenis  at  Ihe  botlom  of  the 
sec(m<l  pa^c  in  that  book.  Mr.  Slnnsie  lliinks  il  fair  Ihal 
he  should  explain  lolhe  Commissioners  how  that  statement  is 


143 

iiuhIc.  1111(1  witli  llu-  coiist'iil  of  the  Cummit-siouers  I  will  re- 
ciill  liiiii  oil  tlia(  point. 

Mr.  Miiiisic.  icfiillcd  liy  Mr.  IVtcrs:— 

Q. — Will  you.  Uicii.  lake  this  mcinoraiHluin  hook  and  jjiv*' 
lo  the  ("oiiiiiiissiiiiicrM  iui.v  L'X|»laiiiitioii  yon  desire  to  make? 
I'erliai)s  I  should  show  to  the  t'onunissioneis  whore  that  en- 
try occurs  (passing'  itj)  iiietiiorandnni  book).  A. — When  Mr. 
uickiiison  iiasscd  the  liook  to  me  yesterday  and  asked  me  if 
'°  all  lliose  entries  after  a  certain  one  were  made  in  ISSti,  I  \hen 
liuriiedly  looked  down  them,  and  I  did  not  catch  the  name  of 
t'aplaiii  Warren,  jiresiimin^;  that  it  was  on  the  last  Jia^e, 
bill  after  I  !i(it  the  hook  from  Mr.  Peters  I  saw  Mr.  Warren's 
name  was  on  the  second  jiape,  and  I  would  like  to  omit  that 
name.  That  was  not  in  1S8(!,  because  Paptain  Warren  did 
not  Ko  to  Ottawa  until  1S,S7,  and  I  am  not  sure  when  it  was 
jiaid.  I  think  perliai.s  not  until  ISSS— 1SS7  or  1SS8. 

(-i. —  How  docs  it   come  to  be  entered  then  on  the  bottom 


20 


30 


SO 


60 


of  tiiat  pajjic 


.\. — It  a|tpcars  that  there  was  a  blank  line 


tiiere.  and  in  makiii};  the  <'ntry  I  turned  it  over  and  s«'eintJ 
that  blank  line.  I  see  it  was  the  last  page,  and  I  just  put  it 
there. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  the  fact  of  actually  making  that  en- 
try at  all?  A. — No,  I  don't  remember  just  the  actual  facts 
of  it 

ii. — Mr.  Miinsie  was  iiiterrojfated  yesterday  by  my  friend 
.Mr  Dickinson  as  to  wluther  lie  had  used  certain  moneys  of 
llie  linn  ot  Cariie  &  JIunsie  in  jiurchasing  this  schooner,  and 
lie  was  asked  to  thid  out  whether  there  were  anv  books  of 


that  tiini  which  showed  any  jiayment  of  that  description. 
Since  yesterday's  adjournment  he  has  obtained  a  bank  book 
from  tiiat  tirm  and  is  able  to  niak<'  a  positive  statement  on 
that  point  if  the  Coiiimissioiiers  will  allow  him  to  do  so. 
!Iave  yon  that  bank  book  here?  .V. — I  have. 

(i. — Will  you  produce  it?  A. — (Prodnciiifj;  bank  book) — 
There  was  110  che(|ue  drawn.  This  is  the  first  bank  book, 
opened  in  March. 
«i. — What  year?  A. — 1SS4.  I  have  not  drawn  one  singh! 
^40  cheiiue  (luring  the  two  years  and  a  half.  It  is  up  here  to 
the  end  of  ISSd.  and  not  one  che(|ne  drawn  to  my  credit.  I 
may  say  that  I  iiave  other  resources.  T]»  lo  the  end  of  ISSt! 
I  would  say  thei-e  are  three  chetiues  drawn  to  selves  duniig 
thai  year,  one  for  .f2l(ll,  one  for  JifStt,  one  f<n'  |il4tl,  and  one  for 
.^;>!l.7."),  making  ^4."i!t.75  drawn  to  joint  account.      It  was  joint 


acco 


lint  d 


rawii  to  selves 


The  ('ommissioiier  on  (he  jiart  of  Her  Majesty: — Is  that 
the  only  bank  account  your  linn  had?  A. — The  only  bank 
a(  connl. 

.Mr.  Tedrs: — 1  should  like  to  ask  this  witness — You  state 
you  had  means  ont,<i(le  of  this?      .\. — Yes,  sir. 

ii. — -Vnd  yesterday  I  understood  you  to  say  tliat  you  did 
t'oi  kee]i  a  bank  account.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  did  you  keep 
wliat  y((u  call  a  savings  bank  account?  .\. — I  believe  I  had 
at  liiat  lime  an  a<i(iunt  in  the  sa\'ings  bank.  The  thought 
;ccinrrd  to  iiie  tliis  morning  that  1  had,  but  I  have  not  loolied 
at  ii.      II  is  some  small  savings  fluit  I  put  in  there. 

t'ross cxaminalioii  iiy  .Mr.  Dickinson. 

(2 — Wliat  savings  bank?  .V. — The  Doiuiniou  Oovernment 
Sa\ings  Hank. 

(i. —  Here  in   N'ictoiia?  .\. — \'icloria. 

(i. —  \'ou  don't  know  wIk'Ii  yon  opened  the  account?  A. — 
I  do  iiol. 

t^. — Did  you  have  it  in  If^sti?  .\. — I  would  not  say.      I  pre- 


via 


ii' 


M<* 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


M4 

smiu'  if  \\>.n  iniK-li  ciirlitT.       1  inc^siiiiu'  il  was  wii,v  biuk  in 
1S7S,  (ir  MHiictliiiif;  like  lliiil. 

(I. — l>o  ,voii  ('Iu'<|iic  vdiii-  niiincv  out  of  tlu'  Siiviiifrs  ISank? 
A. — \<).  I  do  not  i»a.v  anv  nionry  onl  in  that  wa.v. 

Q. — How  )lo  yon  p't  llic  money  out?  A. —  I'.y  clu'iinc  wlicn 
I  draw  it  ont. 

(i. — And  yon  liavc  a  l>ank  liook  to  show  wliat  yon  deposit? 
A. — I  piesnine  I  have;  I  don'l   know. 

(i. — l>o  yon  keej»  tlie  liank  account  yet?       A. — No. 
(2.— Wlien  did  yon   (lose  it?       .\. — ^Theie  may  be  a    very 
snnill  amount;  sntlicient  to  kee])  it  open.      [  am  not  sure  tli(>i'u 
is. 

H. — How  mncli  did  yon  ever  keep  tliere?  A. — 1  wouldn't 
answer  tliat. 

(i. — V»>n  did  not  understand  wlien  I  asked  yon  if  yon  kepi 
a  l)ank  account  anywliere  liiat  lliat  coveied  savinjis  liank? 
A.— It  did  not  occur  to  me  tlial  I  had  one. 

Q. — Yo)i  liad  forjjoden  tl\e  fact  tliat  you  had  any.  Do 
yon  rememl»er  wJiether  at  any  time  you  had  as  nincli  as 
^r),()(M)  there?      A.— I  may. 

Q. — Would  yon  swear  that  yon  had  as  much  as  fKMHtO? 
A. — I  don't  think  1  had  as  nsnch  as  that. 

Q — Would  you  swear  that  yon  had  not  as  mnch  as  that? 
A. — I  don't   think  the  (Jovcinmeiit  allow  that   mnch. 

Q. — Yon  can't  tell  within  some  tlK)nsands  how  mnch  yon 
kept  there?  A. — 1  don't  know  now.  it  is  so  loii};  ajj^o,  I 
don't  remember. 

Q. — As  to  this  memoiandnm  book,  did  yon  look  at  the 
voucher  and  find  that  it  was  dated  in  .May,  ISS7,  after  bein<; 
on  the  stand?       A. — I  did  not. 

Q. — It  was  not  told  yoti,  was  it?       .\. — Xo,  it  was  not. 
{}. — These  entries  I  think  you  told  me  yesterday  were  en- 
tered  when   the   voucher   was   presented?       A. — About    that 
time. 

(i. —  And  this  mijiht  have  been  entered  in  lSS(i?  A — It 
mi};:ht. 

Q. — Hut  at  the  time  you  made  that  entiy  J.  I).  Warren — 
you  may  have  made  it  in  ISSS?       .\.—  I  niif,'ht  have. 

Q. — The  entry  was  made  over  the  leaf  schooner  "Mary 
Taylor."  2:5. .'>r».  Thai  had  bt<'n  there  some  lime  since  llSSIJ, 
had  it  not — ri^fht  on  the  next  jiafie?  .\. —  I  don'l  remember 
just  how  that  entry  came  to  Ite  made. 

t^. — The  enliy   "schooner   '.Mary   Taylor.'     12:{. ;")(»,"     was  it 

there  or  was  it  not  when  you  made  Ihe  entry  .1    1).  Warren 

at  tlu>  foot  of  Ihe  second  paj;e?      A. —  I  fancy  it  is  there. 

(i.— -Vnd   the  enliy  "Hall   &  (ioeiiel"  was  "tliere?  .\.— Yes. 

(i. — .\nd  Ihe  olhei'  entries  on  the  third  paj^e  are  all  there? 

.\.— To  Ihe  best  of  my  knowledfxe.       II  a]ipears  tliere  is  one 

blank  remainin;;-  there;  I  fancy  thai   that  was  Ihe  last  jiau'e. 

(J.— l>o  you  remember  of  faiKyiiiir  that?       .\. —  I  don't  re- 

inembei'  fancying  l.liar. 

ii — The  item  just  above  tiiat,  "I'allilinder"  4."),  was  made  in 
ISSC?       A.— I   think  so. 

ii — I>id  il  ever  occur  to  you.  when  yon  don't  remember 
iiltout  it.  that  11  mi;;lit  liav(>  been  i»ossible  when  you  made 
the  other  entry  in  ISSd,  to  have  discovered  that  there  was  a 
blank  at  the  foot  of  ihat  jiat>c?  .\.— T  mijjlil  have  noticed 
it. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — That  bo<ik  is  an  exhibit  in  Ihe  case,  I 
think. 

Q.— Mr.  Uodwell:— U  is  marked   for  identification. 


m 
,-■'§-■ 


rt'! 


lO 


20 


30 


.)0 


50 


60 


Aiidicw  .F.  nc(li(<'l.  ciilh'd  uiid  sworn. 
(Direct  t'xaini'iaMo!!  by  Mr.  rctcrM.) 

Q. — WlK'fi!  do  you  rcsidi',  Mr.  Ht'ilitel?      A. — N'iitoria. 
0. — How  lou},'  liavt'  you  rusidt'd  iu  Vict(uia?      A. — About 
-.i  ycaiM. 

(i. — I  bt'licvc  you  aro  uiarricd  and  si-ttbd  down  ht-rt"?  A. — 

VOH. 

(2.— And  have  a  family  licrc?      A. — Yes. 

0. — And  tliis  liaH  been  vour  home  for  tlio  las)  :.';{  voars? 
A.— VcM. 

<^i- — What  business  are  you  in  now?  A. — In  tlie  soalint; 
businesH. 

(i. — How  Ion},'  have  you  been  enj;a<!;ed  in  the  waling;  busi- 
ness—about how  lony?  A.— I  tan'l  say  exactly  as  to  u 
month;  over  t'-ree  years. 

(). — About  three  years  you  mean?  A. — About  three  years 
— loiif^er. 

ti- — What  was  your  busim-ss  before  that?  A. — Hotel  busi- 
ness. 

ti— Vou  kept  an  hotel  here?  What  was  the  name  of  the 
liotel?    A. — I  have  kei)t  difl'erent  hotels. 

Q- — Von  were  a  hotelkeeper  in  X'ictoria  for  how  nuiny 
years?      A. — Feu-  abcmt  JS  yeais. 

(i.— Prior  to  IS8(J  bad  you  anythinj^;  to  do  with  the  sealin},' 
business?       A.— No,  sir. 

Q. — Had  yon  anything,'  to  do  with  shipping.       A. — No,  sir. 

(i. — Did  you  know  anytliiny:  about  ships  up  to  that  time? 
A. — No,  sir. 

(i. —  Had  yon  owned  any  ship  before  then?       A. — No,  sir. 

(i. — Had  you  any  share  or  interest  in  any  ships  of  any  kind 
up  to  that  lime?      A. — Not  any. 

Q— And,  in  fact,  had  you  in"l,s8(i  any  interest  in  any  ship? 
A. — Not  any. 

t^— Or  in'  1SS7?      A.— No,  sir. 

Q.— Or  in  ISSS,  as  a  matter  of  fact?      A.— No.  sir. 

q.—ih-  in  ISS!»?      A.— No,  sir. 

(i.— And  1  believe  1  mi};ht  also  sav  ISIKI?  A.— No,  sir; 
not  in  l,s!MI. 

(i.— Now  in  the  year  ISSo  you  had  a  transaction  with  Mi 
.Munsie?      A. —  Ves,  sir. 

Q. — He  borrowed  some  money  from  you?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

The  ("ommissioner  on  the  i)art  of  the  Tuited  States: — Mr. 
r<'ter,s,  wliat  is  your  undersiandin};  (-;'  tl'c  matter  of  rebuttal 
if  .von  iio  into  this  matter  now?  Do  you  understand  that 
you  are  closed  on  rebnttai? 

Mr.  Peters: — I  am  now  {iivinji  evidence  as  to  what  this 
vessel  cost.  I  am  not  };oin},'  into  the  matter  of  ownership; 
what  this  )j;entlenian"s  nationality  is. 

The  ("ommissioner  on  the  jtart  of  the  United  Htates:— You 
have  asked  him  if  he  was  interested  in  vessels  durinft  certain 
years.  There  .seems  to  be  a  sort  of  intimalitm  here  that  he 
was  a  beneticial  owner  of  this  vessel.  I  simply  wanted  to 
ask  you  what  you  understand  the  rules  to  be  about  rebnttai. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  certainly  do  not  intend  to  jjo  into  any  (|ues- 
tion  upon  which  we  will  afterwards  want  to  pive  rebuttal 
evidence.  I  only  wish  to  explain  this  niortf;a<>;e  tninsaction. 
The  i>apers  on  their  face  reipiin'  s<nne  explanation — the  fact 
that  these  i»apers  all  contain  ihe  same  amount.  I  want 
simply  to  show  that  it  is  a  Ixma  fide  tranwicti(m. 

The  rouimissioner  on  the  i>art  of  the  United  Htates:— If 
yon  open  u]»  llie  <|uesliou  here  now  are  vou  not  barred  (m 
rebuttal? 

10 


■vl 


I! 


^lii 


30 


1 46 

Mr.  .■,'t<'iN:— Tilt'  (iiK'slion  iiiisc«l  in  llic  i»h'ii(liiij{H  is  one 
of  Aiiici'ican  ntitioiiiility  tlint  is  all. 

Till'  ('(imiiiisHioncr  on  tin-  pint  of  Ihc  Tnitt'd  Stiih'H:— Don't 
voii  make  ont  a  pi-inia  fa<i«'  <aH»'  when  ,vou  put  in  the  Urit- 
iHh  U(')i;iHtt'r. 

Mr.   r«'t»'i'H: — 1   am   here  (tn   llic  qin-stion  of   value.       Mr. 
MiinHic  brings  in  a  statement,  lie  hiivh  I  lioiifjlit  lliat  veswl 
Un-  so  much,  the  papers  show  she  did  not  cost  so  niiuh  on 
'°      the  face  of  tlu'ni. 

TheComniiHsioneron  the  jmrt  of  the  I'nited  States; — I  only 
meant  to  ask  yon  the  (lui'stion  what  you  understood  about  the 
matte!'  of  rebuttal. 

Mr.  refers: — I  am  not  p)in>;  into  anythinf;  except  this  par- 
ticular mater  which  to  us  appears  to  need  some  ex|»IanatJon. 

Mr.  Munsie  siivs  that  he  bought  that  vessel  at  a  valuation 
of  *.%800. 

ZO  The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  tlu'  I'nited  States: — Does 

this  witness  know  anything  alwut  what  she  cost? 

Mr.  I'eters: — He  knows  the  exact  transaction,  and  the 
money  he  himself  advanced. 

The  Conimissioner  on  the  jmrt  of  the  Tnited  States: — Does 
that  enable  him  to  show  wluit  she  cost? 

Mr.  Peters: — It  corroborates  Mr.  Munsie,  and  shows  that 
his  statement  is  correct,  that  is  all. 

To  witness: — You  had  this  transacticm  with  Mr.     Munsie? 
A. — Yes.  sir. 
(}. — Did  you  advance  him  some  money?      A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q.— What  time  did  you  make  the  tlist  advance?  \. — Time? 
Q. — In  the  year? 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  llu'  I'nited  Slatt's: — Let 
me  ask  you  Mr.  Peters.  I  am  doing  this  on  my  own  account 
without  consulting  my  associate.  What  (inference  does  it 
make  liow  much  money  he  advanced  unless  he  knows  what 
the  ve.^sel  cost,  unless  you  intend  to  meet  'lie  entire  ques 
ti<m  r.iised  by  the  pleadings  of  the  I'nited  Sates  now.  I 
do  not  *hink  we  ought  to  be  compelled  to  go  over  this  matter 
twice? 

Mr.  Peters: — This  witness  on  this  point  certainly  would  not 
be  recalled. 

The   Comniissioiier   on   the   part    of   Mie   Ignited    {States:— 
Hut  you  may  claim  to  give  it  in  rebutal,  for  aught  he  knows 
50       Mr. iMunsie  had  the  mmiey  to  buy  a  shop  or  a  farm.       If  lie 
knows  what  this  vessel  cost,  that  is  another  thing. 

Mr.  Pet<>rs: — I  will  content  myself  with  jmtting  only  one 
ipiestion  aliout  it.  There  was  a  mortgage  given  for  )|!f!(i7.  as 
Your  Honour  i'cmeml>ers  in  February,  ISS').  I  simply  wanted 
to  ask  this  witness.as  a  matter  of  fact  whether  that  was  the 
amount  advanced,  or  whether  it  was  a  less  sum  Than 'that, 
simply  for  the  purpose  of  corroborating  Mr.  Munsie's  state 
iiient  as  to  the  nature  of  the  transaction.  They  have  already 
60  ■''•  <'ross-examining  Mr.  Munsie  tried  to  make  it  ajijiear 
that  the  statement  made  by  Mr.  Munsie  is  an  improbable 
one,  that  the  papers  show  that  his  statement  at  all  events 
is  the  subject  of  some  doubt. 

The  Comniissioiier  on  the  part  of  the  I'nitt'd  States: — I 
have  110  further  siiggesdons  to  make.  I  uu'rely  want  on  my 
own  behalf  to  throw  out  this  caution. 

To  witness: — You  took  a  mortgage  from  Mr.  Munsie,  as  a 


ft 


40 


ai<>? 


lO 


20 


30 


•JO 


50 


60 


•47 

iniiltci-  uf  riirl,  ill   (lie  iiMiiitli   <)l'  I'Vliiiiiir.v,    isx'i,  ami      Hi*- 

nil I  of  tliiil  iiiorlKiip'  wiiHflitiT.    Will  voii  lie  kind  i'IkiiikIi 

to  Icll  iiii'  wliiit  is  llic  iutiial  iiiiioiiiil    vuu   tlii-ii  atlvaiKcd? 
A.— ?J(K(. 

{.i. — No  iiioft'?       A. — No  iiioif. 

ii. — Now  tinrc  in  anotlicr  mailer 
;Mr.  lU<hl('l.   I  a},'iii'i   wish   l<>  refer 
liv  my  leai'iieil  frientl.       There  is  a 
here  with  re^aril  lo  .Mr.  <><{ilvi 
Iiefore  Ihis  (')iui't  in  tliis  case. 


vie 


A  —  Ves,  sir. 


I  \va:il  to  ask  yon  alMinl 

lo  Ihe  cross  e.xamiiialion 

mailer  I  want  e.vplaineil 

wlios<'  per^'onal  claim  is  now 

Dill  yuu  know  t'aplain  O^H 


A.— Well,  I 


lliink 
A.    - 

live. 


A.- 
A.- 


-Y(s. 
A.— 


-Yes, 
-Ves. 


A.— 1 1    was 


Tlu 


Q. — How  lonj;  had  you  known  him? 
ever  since  I  came  to  the  country. 

Q.-Was  he  in  Uw  habit  of  hoarding  at  your  place? 
Ves,  sir  he  always  made  my  jilace  his  home. 

Q.  —Now   Mr.  Uechtel,  where  did  this  man  Ogilvie 
Victoria? 

A.— Ves,  sir,  at  Victoria. 

Q. — Von  had  known  him  for  a  number  of  years?     .\. 
sir. 

Q. — Had  ho  any  relations  lieie  that  you  know  of? 
:U)i  that  I  know  "of. 

Q. — He  went  away,  I  believe,  in  IS8G  and  never  afterwards 
returned?      A. — Y«'s,  sir. 

il. — IMd  the  inal«'   Hiake  come  from    Victoria? 
sir. 

ii. — f'laiins  were  put  in,  I  believe  for  Mr.  IMake' 
sir. 

Q.— Who  i)ut  tlu"  claim  in  for  Mr.  Ogilvie? 
throuf.-;)!  me  that  the  claim  was  put  in. 

Q. — For  any  one  else  but  Ogilvie?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — I  refer  to  page  01  of  volume  .T  (American  reprint), 
claim  is  put  in  in  this  way: — "Victoria,  Itritish  Columbia.  I 
James  Oyilvie,  master  of  the  schooner  "('arolena,"  claim  as 
compensation  for  my  a  nest  and  impristmmeut  on  board  the 
I'nited  States  steamship  'Corwin,'  and  in  jail  at  Sitka,  the 
sum  of  f5,000.  Dated  the  llMli  day  of  October,  1SS(!.  James 
Ofjilvie,  by  his  attorney,  A  J.  IJechtel."  As  a  matter  of 
fact,  Ojiilvie  was  then  dead,  as  it  now  ajtpears?      A. — Yes, 

Q. — Did  you  know  aiiytiiiu{j  about  that  then?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q  — And  you  put  this  in.  witnessed  by  ilr.  Drake?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

(i. — Did  Of^ilvie  have  any  other  friends  here  besides  you? 
A. — There  was  no  doubt  he  had  a  good  many  friends,  noth- 
ing more  than  .just  acquaintances. 

(2. — As  a  mailer  of  tact,  did  you  put  this  claim  in  for  vonr- 
self?      A.— No,  I  did  not. 

Q— Did  .vou  intend  to  get  the  benefit  of  it?  A.— In  Ihis 
way.    There  was  a  small  amount  he  was  indebted  lo  me. 

(i. — He  owed  you  a  small  amount  for  what?  A.— II  was 
for  board. 

Q. — About  how  much?  A. — Well,  I  would  not  be  positive. 

Q.— Would  it  be  over  |ilUO?  A.— I  don't  think  it  would, 
although  it  might  be. 

(■l- — And  you  put  this  claim  in  on  account  of  your  having 
known  Ogilvie  i'or  such  a  time?      A, — Y\'s,  sir 

Q. — Did  .vou,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  haiipen  to  see  the  "Caro- 
lena"  before  she  went  out  in  18SG?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— How  was  she  loaded?       A.-  I'retty  well  loaded. 

Q. — W'ere  you  on  board  of  lier?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  say  you  knew  the  captain?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i.— And  you  were  on  board  of  her  before  she  sailed?  A. 
— Yes,  sir 

Q. — As  a  matter  of  fact,  you  do  not  intend  to  give  any 
statement  of  wlial  was  on  board  of  her?  A.— No,  1  couldn't 


II 


as  a 


1    »  T'F  "•^'^ 


I4.S 


-H* 


i   1 


10 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


('i-oHMt'XtiiniiDilioii  b,v  Ml'.  Difkiiisoii. 

(^._V„ii  ilid  not  «'ii(ti'  llic  sciiliii);  ImsincsM  iiiilil  IS!»0? 
A.— I  lliink  i(  wiih  In  1S!M»  1  lion^lit  ti  vchwI  in  Sim  KnuH  In- 
to. 

(i.— Vou  haO  no  inicivHt  in  the  m-nlin};  biiHinoHs  iM-foic? 
A.— \(».  h\v. 

Q._|)i,l  yon  cnttT  lilt'  scaling  l)iisin('HH  in  ISlMt?  and  enter 
tlie  ownerHliip  of  Mealing  ve8Hel8?  A. —  I  wouldn't  l»e  i«iHi- 
live  wlietlier  it  waH  in  IM'm  or  1S!H,  lint  I  l)onj?lit  llie  Cit.v  of 
San  l>ie>;o  In  San  Franciseo;  in  1S!M»  or  1S!H. 

Q — Was  it  tlie  Hanie  ,vear  jou  beeanie  a  llritisli  Hubjeet? 
A. — Xo,  sir. 

Q. — Wlien  did  .von  become  a  llritiHli  Hnbjeet?  A. — Tlie 
•JlHt  ef  April,  ISOl',  to  the  best  of  my  knowledge. 

Q. — Did  .von  have  an.v  waling  biiHineHH — own  an.v  Healers 
j»ri'jr  to  that  time?  A.— Nothinj,'  bnt  the  Cit.v  of  San  l>h'j,'o. 
Q. — That   was  an   Amerieun   ship?       A. — Yen,  nir. 
Q. — With  an   .\merican   register?       A. — Yes,   sir. 
(i.— Now,  what  was  the  iffKiT  for?       A  —What  fUiT? 
(i.— The  ditVerenee  between  *5(l(l  and  *»!((??     A.— Th:it  was 
intended  to  cover  the  interest. 

(J. — For  how  hing?  A. — W<'ll,  there  was  no  specitled 
time. 

Q.— How  did  .vou  pet  jnst  JflfiT?  A.— ^Vell,  reall.v,  I  would 
not  be  (tositive  it  was  flOT.  I  knew  it  was  over  If  100. 

Q. —  If  it  was  fl(!7.  how  did  von  get  jnst  that  amonnt? 
A.— Well,  I  couldn't  say. 

ii. — How  much  did  you  advance  on  the  (fl.tlOO  mortgage? 
A.— Ifnoo  more. 

Q.— Made  ll.OOtt  altogether?       A.— Yes,  sir. 
Q.— And  did  .von  get  the  interest  paid,  the  f  1(>7?      A.— The 
interest  on  the  $r>00  loan  w.is  ])aid. 

(i.— Was  it  the  ditt'erence  between  the  :fr>(IO  t'.nd  tl  >  UKirt- 
gage?  Did  .von  get  that  amonnt  of  interest?  A.  —I  cuii'  Ii.'t 
sa.v. 

Q. — What  was  done  with  the  surplus  between  i^.'j'tO,  tlie 
iMiioiint  tliat  you  actually  a<lvanced,  and  the  amount  of  the 
mortgage?  A. — I  couldn't  say. 

<}. — Hon't  know  whethei'  you  got  it  oi-  not?  A. — I  know 
that  there  was  a  mortgage  given  for  (iOO  and  odd  dollars, 
and  tliijt  mortgage  was  cancelled,  and  then  I  gave  Mr.  Mun 
sie  SliridO  more,  making  fl,()(l(»,  and  he  gave  me  a  new  mort- 
gage f(M-  lil.OOO. 

Q. — ]>o  vou  know  how  manv  shares  that  was  on?  A. — 
The  ^l.Otxl? 

*.}. — Yes.   A. — That   was — I  couldn't  be  positive,  but    I   be- 
lieve :V2  shares. 
Q. — -lust  half  the  interest?      A. — Yes,  sir;  32  shares. 
Q. — And  the  vhole  title  then  stood  in  the  name  of  Munsie? 
-V. — I  couldn't  say  as  to  that. 

i}. —  ^'ou  could  not  say;  ./iit  I  suppose  you  knew  at  the  time 
you  took  that  mortgage  on  the  boat  where  the  title  was?  A. — 
The  title  for  the  vessel? 
ti.Ycs.       A.— I  did  not. 

Q. — Do  you  mean  to  say  that  you  took  a  mortgage  on  the 
boat  without  knowing  where  the  title  was?  A. — Well,  I 
was  Milvist  d  to  tak«'  a  mortgage  fcu'  m.v  mimey. 

i}. — And  you  did  not  know  anything  about  the  title  your- 
self? A. — I  n(ver  bad  anything  to  do  with  the  vessels  and 
I  (lid  not  kn(sw  anything  about  thnii. 

(i.— Then  you  did  not  know  that  Munsie  held  thi'  title? 
A. — I  knrw  ly  his  leTng  nu'. 

(,». — At  the  time  you  made  up  this  claim  for  Ogilvie,  was  it 
nuide  betore  Ml-.  Drake?      A. — I  believe  it  was. 


149 


10 


20 


3° 


4° 


ii. — AimI  wlHTt'iiliuiilN  di<l  you  si^ii  iiimI  iiiakr  it?  A. — If 
I  )iMi  not  iniMtiiki'ii  it  wiiH  in  Mr.  lh'iil<c'H  (>t1l<-<>. 

(/.— WiiH  Mr.  .Mnnnic  tlicrc?       A.— N<».  nir. 

ii. — I'd  ,von  Iwiow  iinytliin^  tilMint  .MunHii-  niiiliin^  ii  cliiini 
Willi  h  went   witli  if.'       A.— .No.  sir. 

(i. — How  difl  voii  t'oin*-  to  j{o  to  .Mr.  lM'iil\<''H  onicc?  .\. — 
\\'i*ii,  I  wtiH  ti*lviH<-<l  li,v  otlit-rH  putting  in  t-ltiiniH.  1  iiatl  itocn 
tiili<in^;  witli  <litT<'r<'iit  onrH  Hint  wi>r<'  imtliii};  in  oliiiniH;  otiii'i- 
riipliiiiiH  tluit  wcro  tiit-ront  tin-  tini*-  in  Hitl{ii. 


<i 


III  .liilv  i:itli,  is.sri.  von  r*-ii<lor<Ml  n  liill.    Did  von 


inciiKlc  ill  it  wiiiil  O^iivic  ow*mI  von  iHliowiii|;  witnoHH  voiifiuM' 
;!S.  cxiiiltit  KM.  Von  liiivc  Hicn  tiiiit  iM-t'orc.  iiavt-n't  .yon?  A. 
—  it  iH  my  liiindwrilinK.  Tliiit  diH'Hii't  inrlndt'  0(;ilvi«-'H  liiil. 
\\f  ni'vcr  inclndi'  •ii|it)iinN  witii  tlic  c  r.wn. 

(J.— So  tiiiit  did  not  imliidf  Oniivii-'w  Idii?      A.— Xo.  nir. 

{}. — lliivf  yon  iiny  IiooIvh  to  siiovv  wlinl  Offilvif  ow<'d 
von? 


-Weil,  no. 


(i. — Did  not  yon  licop  nny  buidis'i 


i<c|it  tit  tile  lioti'l  at   tlic  tiiiK 
ajfo. 


\. — Tliorc  wt  re  ho«>lvH 
It   WIIH  II  ^ood  many  yi-nrn 


Q. — WaH  tiiis  l)ill  I  now  hIiow  yon  tai{i  ii  from  your  booliw? 
A. — I  iiavt'  O^iiivic's  aiM'onnt. 

(i. —  Did  yon  iiiivc  an  aoiMint  of  liiiH  vtHHid  I  now  hIiow 
.\. — I  wouldn't  iiavc.  It  mi<;lil  Im>  on  tlio  liotol  Ik)oI<h  I 
wouldn't  say. 

ii. — How  do  yon  iviion  tiial  yon  iiad  <>};iivic's  liili  at  alioiil 


til 


lanii-  da  v.  .'ind  not  tlii>i 


liiiiH 


|ia|i*'i's  of  adniinisti'iitioii. 
(i. — Were  yon  made  Adniinistiator  for  Onilvic 


(2.— I  ixiiow     it  liy  till- 


A.— YoH, 


sir. 


ii. —  In  liic  Court  iicrc 


A.— \ 


o,  sir. 


ii. — How  tiu'ii  arc  yon  iiiado  Adniinisirittor  for  ()};ilvi(? 
.\. — It  was  tiiroii^ii  Hio  <'oiiits,  I  suppose,  at  Sitlvti,  tiiat  is 
I  tiiiniv  tlic  jtapcrs  were  sent  tliere  to  lie  completed.  Tlie 
way  tiiey  were  made  out  I,  of  conrsc.  i<!iow  notiiin;;  ahonl  it. 

ii. — \Vlicre  are  tiic  pajiers  tiiat  were  sent  yon  from  Sitica? 
A. — I  iiave  liieiii  in  my  iicnisc. 

ii. — Will  yon  let   IIS  sec  tiiem?       A. — I  can     lirini;     titcni 
down.  yes.  sir. 

ii. — Now  yon  '^aid  tiiat  yon  were  in  tlie  hotel  Inisincss  in 


I. •><."«!  and  liad  l)ecn  for  some  years? 
ii. — Did  yon  keep  a  i»i.e;};cry' 


.\. —  1  es,  sir 
-I  did  at  tliat  lime. 


ii. — Wlicrealtonts  was  it?  A. — Abont  a  mile  and  a  lialf 
from  (lie  Post  Oltice. 

ii. — Was  it  yours?  A. —  It  belonged  to  my  Inotlicr  and 
iiivsclf. 


iO     sir. 


ii. — Von  were  in  iiarrncrsliip  were  yon?       A. — Yes.  sir. 
ii. — Kver  in  paitncrsliip  wilii  ("ariic  &  .Mnnsic?       A. — \o. 


(i.- Have  an  interest  in  tiiat  cojir«'rn?       A. — No.  sir. 

Q. — In  your  pif-^icry  yon  boiifjiit   and  sold  a     muni     deal', 


A.— Yes. 

ii. — And   in  yonr  iiotel" 
hams;  wc    cured  meat  as  well. 


A. — Considerable     bacon     and 


ii- — ^'on  paid  a  muu]  deal  of  money  out  in  yonr  iiiftfjery 


msiiK'ssv 


-Oil,  well,  moic  or  1 


ess. 


6o 


ii. — And  yon  kept  yonr  otlice  wliiie  yon  carried  on  tiie  bnsi 
ness  at  tlie  hotel.      A. — .\t  the  hot«'l,  yes  sir. 

Q. — Pretty  careful  abont  Riviiifj:  receipts  wore  y(m?  A.— 
W<dl,  I  sn]ipose  so. 

Q. — When  yon  jiaid  money  yon  pave  receipts  did  not  yoii* 


A. — 1  took  V 


«'ceij)ls.  yes  sir. 


Q. — And  w'len  yon  received  money,  you  gave  receipts?  A. 
rieneraliy. — 

(i. — Yon  kept  blank  receipts?  A. — No,  sir.  T  conid  not 
say  we  did. 


Q. — Did  not  keep  blank  receijits^ 


-No, 


sir. 


ISO 


i  ! 


«M 


lO 


30 


Q. — Did  jou  kei'])  a  litttlc  book— i.  stub — blank  ri'tcipts 
showiiifj  from  wlioiii  you  rccoivt'd  money  when  you  }?ivi>  a  n> 
(I'ipr?      A. — Not  alwiiys. 

(i.— IHd  you  ki'('i»  any  blank  n'ct'ipts?  1  did  for 
icnis. 

Q. — And  were  you  juvtry  oaroful  about  nuniborintic  them 
so  you  could  si'o  where  youi  blanks  went?  A. — Ves,  8lr, 
souK'times. 

Q. — And  wliat  rents  tlid  you  receive  in  188(5?  A. — I 
couldn't  say. 

(i.-  Hid  you  have  any  stores  or  buildings  from  which  you 
received  rents?      A. — I  had  some  cottages. 

Q. — And  rents  payable  monthly?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  keej)  a  set  of  blanks  foi-  each  house  or  cot- 
tage, or  use  blank  re(eii»ts?  .\. — Well,  there  would  be  on« 
blank;  of  course  a  book  would  cover  all. 

Q. — You  only  kept  one  set  of  blanks  at  a  time?  A. — Just 
for  house  lents. 

Q. — Did  you  keej)  a  set  of  blanks  for  anything  else?  A. — 
I  might  have  had.  ves. 

Q.— Did  you?      A.— Yes,  I  believe  I  had. 

Q.— What  did  you  use  those  for?  A.— That  would  be  the 
r(>ceij)tH  tor  anything  outside  of  rents  for  cottages. 

H. — Did  you  receive  anything  outside  excejtt  for  rents  of 
<ottages? — outside  of  your  business?  A. — Yes,  I  had  money 
loaned — some  money. 

Q. — 5Iore  than  one  loan  to  Munsie?  A. — Oh,  yes,  1  had 
ditferent  lots. 

().— In  ISSd?      A.— Yes.  sir. 

(i. — And  you  had  one  set  of  receipts  for  that?  A. — Yes. 
that   would   bo  separate 

Q. — Then  you  did  use  blank  receipts,  didn't  you?  A. — 
Some,  not  always. 

Q. — You  had  on<»  set  of  blaid^  receipts  for  rents,  and  an- 
other set  for  money  loaned?      A. — Yes. 

(i. — Now.  I  don't  <iire  to  ask  you  tlie  nanu's.  but  how 
many  loans  had  you  out  in  ISSO?     .\.— Well.  I  couldn't  tell. 

Q. — Five?       .\. — Oil,  I   wouldn't  be  jtositive. 

(i. — Ten?      A. — I  wouldn't  be  positive,  it  was  so  long  ag(» 

(i. — Take  il  fi-om  ISSC  down?  A. — I  would  not  be  posi- 
tive. 

Q. — Yon   were  loaning  money   then  to  others?       A. — Yes. 

Q. — You  could  not  tell  whetluM"  you  were  loaning  to  ten 
or  (o  live?       A. — It  miiilit  be  four  or  five. 

Q. — .\nd  you  keeji  om>  set  of  blank  recei;>ts  for  money 
loaned  and  interest  on  it,  I  sujtposc'?  A. — Yes,  for  money 
loaned   would   be  dilTerent    from   the  rent   receipts. 

Q — Hut   you  kept  one  for  rent    receipts  and  another  f(»r 
^         loan  receipts?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Payments  of  interest  and  sums  paid  back  and  so  on? 
.\. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — I  show  vou  receipts  attached  to  Exhibit  No.  0.  1 
want  to  see  if  they  are  in  your  handwriting?  .\. — (Exam- 
ining! Yes.  sir.  that   is  niv  handwriting. 

Q — I  me.MU  the  body  of  the  receijds;  see  if  they  are  all 
ill  your  haiidwiiliiig''       A. — (Examining)  Yes.  sir. 

Q. — I  want  you  to  hvok  (hem  through  and  see  if  they  are 
in  your  liand writing. 

(Witness  examines  receijtis.) 

Q- — Vou  can  tell  your  handwriting  ]tretty  ()uickly  cannot 
.\ou?  .\.  -It  iniglit  be  cdiiiiteiCcited.  Yos.  sir,  they  are  all  in 
my  liJiudwiilini!'. 

Q. — Now,  will  you  look  at  them  again  and  see  if  they  are 
111!  given  at  (he  times  they  bear  dale?  .\.— Every  six 
iiKUilhs. 

Q — Tliey  were  given  e\erv  six  mondis?  .\. — Yes,  sir,  it 
might    vary  a   li(ll(>. 


40 


60 


10 


20 


30 


40 


io 


60 


IS' 

(i.— Are  those  original  receii»ts,  all  of  them?  A.— I  Hhould 

think  80. 

il — WVre  yon  ever  called  upon  to  j;ive  diiidieates?  A. 
.\,_I  bi'liev'e  air.  Mtinsie  at  one  time  asked  me  to  jjive  a  re- 
ceipt, thai  he  had  lost  one  or  two.  mislaid  them  or  something; 
1  wonld  not  say  what  one«  they  were. 

il — Vou  cannot  distinfjuish  them  now?  A. — No,  I  could 
not. 

Q.— Did  yon  keep  a  stub  to  these  receipts?  A.— There 
was  a  sitnb.  but  where  it  is  I  (ouldn't  say,  it  is  so  lonji  now; 
it  is  almost  ten  years 

Q. — He  came  and  asked  you  for  those  duplicate  nH-eipts, 
didn't  he,  since  he  befjan  to  make  njt  his  claims  here?  A. 
— He  has  never  said  anytliint?  to  me  about  those. 

(2. — About  jjivin^  duplicate  !-eceij»ts.  when  he  had  lost 
some?  A. — Oh.  this  was  a  lonji  while  a<ro.  He  told  me 
that  he  had  lost  one  or  two  recepts. 

Q. — About  wlun?  A. — It  must  have  been  five  years;  at 
least  four  years  ajjo. 

(i— Tliat  would  be  in  1S02  that  he  asked  yon  for  duplicate 
receipts  because  he  had  lost  some?  A. — I  remember  it  is  a 
hma  while  ajjo. 

(J. — H  was  since  he  made  his  claim  on  the  "Carolena"  in 
this  case?  A.— 1  couldn't  say.  I  d(m't  know  just  what  date 
he  nnxle  his  claim. 

(i. — Yoti  made  one  about  the  same  time  in  ISSS  for  Onilvie? 
A. —  I  am  not  positive  what  date  I  made  Of{ilvie's.  Novem- 
ber. ISSfi,  it  was.  if  I  remember — October;  1  have  the  papers 
at  my  house;  I  can  tell. 

(i. — It  was  since  that  that  he  asked  you  for  the  duplicate 
receipts?      A. — It  was  some  time  since  that. 

Q. — Now  did  you  have  your  stub-book  then  to  refer  to?  A. 
— I  must  have  had  it. 

<i. — .\nd  didn't  you  understand  what  he  wanted  dui>licate 
receipts  for?  A.— Well,  to  rei)lace;  that  is,  one  or  two  had 
been  lost.  I  would  not  be  positive  whethei'  it  was  one  or 
two;  I  believe,  tliouu;!),  it  was  two. 

<2. — He  wanted  tliem  to  make  up  his  claims,  didn't  he? 
A.— Weli.  he  didn't  say. 

Q. — Now,  have  you  tak(u  a  look  for  that  stub-book?  A, — 
No,  I  have  not. 

ii. — Will  you?  A. — I  will,  yes,  sir.  I  think  I  ran  very 
likely  find  it. 

Q. — Was  that  a  stub  book  that  was  used  nj»;  all  the  r('ceii)ts 
taken  out?  .\. — I  couldn't  say;  I  am  not  positive. 

Q. — Did  you  {^et  a  new  stub  book  before  one  was  us(  d  u|>i 
A. — No.  noti Of  that  kind;  only  foi'  rents.  I  have  now  a  num- 
ber of  rent  receipt  sttibs  that  I  have  used  of  late  years — the 
last  year  or  two. 

<i. — These  stubs  on  that  olhei'  book  you  kept  for  a  time,  1 
suppose?  A. — AVell,  yes.  1  must  have  had  them  for  some 
time.  I  remember  it  was  a  pretty  j;ood  sized  book,  11)l(  or 
12r»  receijits. 

Q. — That  is  what   those  caiar  out  of?       .\. — Yes,  sii'. 

t^. — Now  he  asked  yo\i.  you  siiy.  about  four  years  a^o.  for 
duplicate's?  A. —  1  wouldn't  be  jiositive  as  to  tiu'  time.  1 
know  it  was  a  tfood  many  years  afjo  that  he  spoke  to  nie 
about  it. 

Q. — Hut  you  had  the  same  kind  of  receipts  then,  didn't  yon. 
that  you  had  in  ISSd?  A.— That  nuist  have  been  the  same 
book. 

(.}. — When  you  nave  him  duplicates  did  you  take  the  re- 
ceijtts  01. t  of  the  old  receipt  bo<ik?  A. — If  I  get  the  stub  it 
will  show. 

(i. — Vou  did  take  them  out  of  the  same,  didn't  yon?  .\. — 
Vcs.  I  notice  they  are  all  olT  the  same  receipts. 

(i. —  I  supjiose  it  is  yotir  <ustnm.  is  it   not,  when  you  have 


y 


1  il 


')! 


I)     1    "   TT  '   -■  T-^ 


152 


10 


a  stub  book  iinrt  bavc  dcalin^rs  witli  a  man.  to  number  his  re- 
ceipts scparalcl.v  from  tlic  otlior  stubs;  lliat  is.  you  number 
them,  each  individual  man  willi  wlioni  you  deal,  yon  number 
(he  receipts  he  ^iives  you?  A. — No.  The  number  of  tht' 
eottajie  1  <i<'nerally  put  al  (he  head.  I  noiiec  they  are  all 
Mninl)ered  even. 

Q. — It  is  your  custom  to  keep  each  man's  nreipts  num- 
bered l»y  iiwmselves.  or  did  you  ninnber  your  receipts  accord- 
in>>  to  your  stul»  books  as  you  went  throui;h?  A. — It  would 
be  more  likely.  I  wouldn't  say  to  that,  at  any  rate.  So 
far  as  the  re(eij)ts  are  cmicerned  I  fienerally  do. 

Q.— \V»'ll,  let  us  see  that  stub-book  if  you  can  find  it?  A. 
-—I  will  look  for  it. 

<i. — And  bring  me,  i<"  30U  have  no  objection,  one  of  the 
stub-books  of  your  rent  receipts?       A. — Ves,  sir. 


(Questions  by  the  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nii. 
States. 


!    i 


30 


(J. — Mr.  IJechtel,  wliy  was  that  mortjjase  e.xpressed  to  Ite 
wiihout  interest?       A.— The  niorlj;a},'e  for  Jfil.tKId? 

Q.— Yes?  A.— Well,  tic  rate  of  iiiter.'st,  .Mr.  .Munsie 
thouf^ht  was  a  little  luah.  and  he  did  not  like  to  have  his 
business  exi»osed. 

Q.— -Was  there  a  note  taken  at  the  scune  time?  A. — No. 
sir.  I  was  advised  to  take  a  note  afterwards. 

Q. — Was  there  a  note  taken  for  the  loan?      .\. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Was  a  note  ever  taken  for  the  loan?      A. — No,  sir. 


<'ross-e.\amination  resumed  bv  Jlr.   IMck 


nson. 


'U 


Hit 


■     I 


P 


60 


Q-— Was  there  any  note  taken  for  the  tirst  loan?     ,\.— No, 


.sir. 


-N 


o,  sir. 


Q.— Not  at  all? 
^y — Von  never  took  a  noti'  then  from  Mnnsie 
for  the  11,1)00. 


A.— Not 


(i.— On  the  tirst  lo.in? 


N 


<t  «ii-. 


(i.— The  ftlOT  nor  the  |.".00?      A.— No. 
Q. — \«'ver  took  a  note?       \. — No  sir. 


Q. — And  do  you  k 


low  any  reason  why  you  put  flfi?  in  a 


mortfjatfe  for  Jfr>00  for  interest   and  put  no  anKHint     in     th 
"■'000  mortf-afic  intcrst?       A.— Well,   this   was  just  a   loan 


payable  at.  any  time.       lie  said   1 
back  at  most  anv  time 


le  w(»iild  like  to  jtay  me 


Q.— The  inot)?      .\.— Y.'s.  sir. 

(i-In   which  #li!7  is   put    in    for  interest ! 


I'es,   to 


cover  interest,  it  was  his  e 


wii  ])ro])ositioii. 


<i.— Now  I  will  asl;  you  to  look  at  voucher  4S  Exhibit   10. 


and  tell  ine  in  whose  hniidwritinij  tile  bddv  of  that 


S"      Is  that  yonrs?       \. — (exaininiii};.)       N 


icipt  is 


o.  sir. 


Q.--' William  Mnnsie  I.TJ."  Cannot  you  tell  without  read- 
ing it,  in  full,  whose  h.nidwiiliii};  it  is  in?  .\. — It  is  not 
my  handwritiu};. 


Q. — IMd  yon  keejt  any  books  at  the  piv;ti;ery' 
nothin;^-  more  than  fiitiii  day  to  day. 
<i- — No  ref,Milar  books?      .\.— No.  sir. 
Q.— Von  furnished  the  "Carolena"  COO 


A.— N 


o,  Sll 


<)H'2  poniids  of  bacon  didn't  yon" 
as  to  tin    number  of  pounds 


pounds  of  ham  and 
.\. — I  wouldn't  be  positive 

.\. — (exaniininfr.)      Ves. 


Q— Well  you  rendered  this  bill? 
sir,  that  is  correct. 

Q.— When  did  you  make  out  the  bill?      A.— Well,  it 
ed. 


is  dat 


It 


Q.— That  is  the  date,  but  wl 
was  m:ide  out  at  that  dat< 


icn  di<l  you  make  it  out?      A. 


-I.sso 


.\.— ISSO. 


(i.— .\rey<ni  positive  about  it  Mr.  Hcchtel?     .\.— Oh.  yes.  it 
is  my  hand  writ  iiifT. 


153 


10 


20 


40 


iO 


r.o 


Q. — Outside  of  tlio  date  itself  can  you  tell  whether  yo(i 
made  it  out  about  the  date  of  the  bill?  A.— I  uuide  it  out 
tlien  sure. 

iy — ])j<I  you  <;et  the  items  from  auy  bt>ok8?  A. — It 
would  be  i)robal)ly  altoRelher  where  we  kept  an  account  of 
such  transactions  as  that. 

Q.— ^\■|lere  is  that?    A.— The  Lord  only  knows. 

(}.— Did  you  keei>  a  little  book  with  such  transactions  as 
this,  containinf;  dealiuj^s  i-elative  to  y<»ur  i)i};p«'i"y  so  that  you 
conid  tell  what  you  paid  out?  A. — I  wouldn't  know  where 
it  was  at  this  time. 

(i. — :n'ow  did  you  make  that  up  within  the  last  two  months? 
A. — Xo,  sir. 

ii. — You  swear,  do  you,  that  you  made  it  up  in  lS,S(i?  A. — 
Yes,  it  was  made  up  the  day  it  is  dated. 

(2.— Did  you  deliver  the  hams  and  bacon?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i. — Dn  the  ship?  A. — 1  couldn't  say  that.  Likely  tlioy 
were  sent  aboard. 

(i. — That  is  just  what  friend  Munsie  says;  he  didn't  go 
aboard,  and  don't  know.  A. — I  mifjlit  have  sent  them  on 
boaid  from  the  hotel,  or  I  minht  have  sent  them  to  Carne  & 
.Munsie's. 

(i. — Did  tluy  buy  bacon  and  so  on  from  you  from  your  pig- 
fxwy'!    A. — Yes.  for  the  vt  s.sel. 

(i. — Did  they  buy  from  you  for  their  store?  A. — I  believ*? 
they  did. 

(i. — Now  can  yoti  tell  whether  this  was  delivered  to  the 
"Carolena"  or  delivered  to  Tarne  &  Munsie?      A. — 1  cannot. 

iy — When  you  went  on  the  ship  did  you  go  below?  A. — 
\o,  I  did  not. 

il. — Didn't  };o  below?      A. — I  believe  I  did  go  in  the  cabin. 

i-i. — Didn't  go  below  on  to  the  tonnage  deck — lu'low  decks 
to  see  wliat  tliey  had  aboard?  A. — Xot  in  the  hold,  where 
they  kejtt  their  sup])lies. 

(i. — What  did  vou  go  there  for?  To  sav  goodbve  to  (japtain 
Ogilvie?      A.— Yes. 

(i. — Kver  been  on  her  before?  A. — Oh.  yes;  I  had  been 
<m  her  several  times. 

(i. — .lust  went  on  to  visit  the  cajitain?  A. — Y'es,  to  see 
th(>  captain;  that  is  all. 

(■i- — You  knew  the  shijt  ju-ctty  well  abo'e  and  below?  A. 
—  I  knew  the  ship  was  loaded;  appeaivd  to  be  very  full 
when  she  left. 

Q. — Did  you  look  down  in  tlu'  hold?  \. — I  co\ild  see  the 
Iiatches  ofl";  could  see  that  slie  was  well  loaded. 

John  .1.  Kobinson  was  <alled  as  a  witness  on  the  jiart  of 
<ireat  Itritain.  and  was  sworn. 

Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Hodwell. 

(.1. — \(niv  name  is  John  J.  Hobinson?      A. — Yes. 

(■i- — You  live  in  N'ictoria?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

t}. — .\nd  are  a  ship  cariM-nter?  A. — Shipwright  and  shi]>- 
builder. 

iy — Ilev,  long  have  yo\i  bei'u  In  Victoria?  A. — Ever  since 
about  IS77. 

(i. — Have  you  been  working  at  vour  trade  dui-ing  that  time? 
A.— All  the  time. 

(i.— Did  you  know  the  "Carolena?"       A.— 1  did. 

(}.— In  the  year  ISSJ  did  you  have  anvlhing  to  do  with  the 
••«"andena'.'"      A.— I  did. 

a— What?      A.— Lengthening  her. 

i}. — Ilow  much  did  you  h  ngthen  her?  A. — .\  few  feet; 
about   eight   eet. 

(2.— Did  that  increase  her  capacity  in  any  other  way?  A. 
— W'cU,  lengthened  her  amidshijjs. 

Q.— WhatelTect  did  that  have  im  the  breadth  of  the  vessel* 
.\. — I  suppose  it  would  make  her  twelve  inches  wider. 


'SI 


m 


III 


!}';.' 


154 


i  4 


i* 


The  Coni'visHloncr  on  tlu-  i»art  of  the  United  Slates: — Wlien 
WMH  this?      A.— In  1SS4. 

Mr.  Hedwell: — Is  thai  youv  signature  (showinj;  witness  pa- 
per)?     A. — Tliat  loolis  very  lik«'  it.      I  slionld  say  it  was. 

Q. — What  is  tliat  doeunient,  Mr.  Kobinson?  A. — That  i.s 
a  receipt  for  paynier'.t  of  earpenter  worl;. 

Q. — Wliat  is  the  anionnt  yon  reeeived    for    tlie    work    yon 
did?      A.— «!!»(»(». 
lO  (i.— Wliat  is  the  date  of  that  meipt?      A.— April  Utli. 

1S84. 

Q. — Was  that  abont  tlie  time  tlnit  yon  finislied  yonr  work? 
A. — As  near  as  I  can  remember 

Tlie  (\)mnii8sioner  on  the  i»art  of  the  I'nited  States: — Had 
not  that  better  }jo  into  the  case? 

Mr.  Rodwell: — I  don't  think  it  is  necessary.  I  simply 
show  it  to  the  witness  to  refresh  his  memory. 

20  The  C(mimissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Yon 

don't  care  for  it,  Jlr.  Dickinson? 

Mr.  Dickinson; — No,  yonr  llononr. 

Q. — Do  yon  know  whether  anything  else  was  done  to  the 
•'Carolena"  at  that  time?  A. — Well,  I  presujne  they  }iave 
luM*  a  new  ri^jpnfj  and  a  new  onttit  I  supiK»se;  I  can't  swear 
to  that. 

Q. — Can  yon  swear  as  to  any  other  work  that  was  done 
besides  the  lengthening  that  yon  did?  A. — I  presume  they 
had  new  rifffiiiifi,  there  were  new  sj)ai's  there. 

Q. — In  what  condition  was  the  "Carolena"  when  this  work 
was  done?       A. — Oh,  jn-etty  fiood. 

(2.— What  kind  of  a  schooner  was  she?  \. — Oh.  a  nice 
h:indy  little  vesrsel. 

Q. — Of  what  rtood  was  shi'  btiilt?  A. — I'ine,  as  far  as  I 
can  find  out. 

Q. — The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  IFer  Majesty: — How 
much  was  she  lenjithened?       A. — A  tiifle  over  eight  feet. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Was 
that  before  this  register  was  taken? 

Mr.  Bodwell:— That  was  in  1SS4. 

The  (Commissioner  on  the  j)art  of  the  T'nited  States: — 
What  is  the  date  of  that  register? 

Mr.   Hodwell: — The  register  is  before  that  date. 

The  (.'ommissioner  on  the  part  of  the     United     States: — 
50       Don't  she  retjuire  a  new  registi'r  after  being  lengthened? 


30 


40 


Go 


Mr.  Hodwell: — As  a  lualti-r  of  fact  everything  that  was 
necessary  to  be  done  by  the  owners  for  the  purpose  of  ob- 
taining a  new  icgister,  was  done.  She  was  re-measured, 
and  the  certificates  are  in  the  coliecloi-'s  oftice  now,  but  for 
some  rejison  or  oilier  there  does  not  appear  to  be  a  new  cer- 
tificate issued. 

The  Ccmimissioner  on  the  pait  of  the  T'nited  States: — (^an- 
n(»t  we  have  the  benefit  of  the  new  survey  here  before  we 
get  through? 

Mr.  Hodwell:— Yes.  we  can  get  those  original  (locunients. 
thi'  iiieiisurenieiit  <-eililicate,  and  the  snrveyoi's  ccrtilicate 
if  the  Commissioners  would  like  to  see  them.  They  are  in 
the  ccdleclor's  o'lli'e  now  in  N'ictoria. 

(i. — .\t  whose  recjuest  did  you  d<»  this  woik?  .\. — The 
captain's 


155 


mi 


lO 


20 


40 


60 


Q._Iu  till'  course  of  your  business  here  have  you  atMpnred 
ii  kii()wledf,'e  of  the  value  of  vessels?  A.— No,  I  could  not 
Hav  thai  I  have,  I  have  },'eneral  ideaw  all  round. 

Q._Have  yo'i  any  opinion  as  to  the  value  of  the  "Cam 
lena"  at  that"  time?'  A.— I  should  think  she  was  worth  be- 
tween ?4,()00  and  f5,0(l(). 

The  Comnussioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  Rtateg:— The 
sini])le  question  is  whether  you  have  an  opinion  or  not. 

Q. — riave  you  an  opinion  as  to  her  value?      A. — Ves. 

Q.— What  is  tliat  opinion  as  to  her  value  in  1884  and  1,^85? 
A.— Well,  about  p,(MK). 

Q. — Have  you  an  opinion  as  to  the  cost  of  building  ves- 
sels per  ton  in  'v'ictoria  at  that  time  and  prior  to  that  time? 
A. — Oh,  I  sui»it()se  all  the  way  from  ^150  up.  builders'  meas- 
urement. 

ii. — Have  ycu  any  idea  as  to  the  number  of  men  that  could 
be  ca tried  on  a  cruise  on  this  ship  the  "Carolena?"  A. — Do 
you  mean  hunters? 

il. — Yes,  for  a  sealinjj  voyajje?  A — Oh,  I  should  say  they 
could  take  1;.'  or  It.  ' 

(i.--l)o  you  know  anything  about  the  way  in  »vhich  those 
sealinj;  schooners  are  usually  loaded  when  they  start  out  for  a 
a  sealin}!;  voyage?  A. — Well,  no;  they  generally  go  out  pret- 
ty deep. 

(i.— Where  do  they  put  their  stuff?  A.— Stow  it  below,  I 
sujtpose. 

Q. — I  mean  to  say,  did  yon  ever  s;  e  stuff  in  the  cabin  stowed 
away?      A. — Yes,  and  in  every  hole  and  corner. 

(i. — Do  you  know  anything  about  the  size  of  the  cabin  of 
the  "Carolena?"  A. — No.  I  did  not  do  any  of  the  joiner 
work,  sir.  on  her. 

Q. — Was  the  position  of  the  cabin  changed  after  the  work 
you  did?  A. — Xo.  1  don't  know  that  it  was.  Made  if  lit- 
tle longer,  of  cour.se,  by  lengthening  hei'. 

ii. — Do  you  know  what  the  "Oarolena"  was  used  for  before 
this  work  was  don*'?  A. — 1  don't  know  whether  she  was 
scaling  before  or  not. 

Q. — Well,  what  was  Captain  Urquhart's  occupation?  A. 
— 1  always  knew  him  as  a  master  mariner  and  pilot. 

ii. — Do  you  know  anything  about  the  "Carolena"  with  ref- 
I'l'cnce  I0  that?      A. — She  use  d  to  belong  to  the  pilots. 

12. — .Vnd  the  pilots  here  go  out  for  some  days  at  a  time, 
don't  they,  waiting  for  vess'ls.  A. — Yes,  I  have  known 
them  to  go  down  to  the  Cape. 

Cross  t'xaniination  by  Mr.  Lans-ing. 

ii. — Mr.  Hobinson,  yoti  have  been  a 
liuilder.  What  boats  have  you  built? 
I  ( (Uild  not  begin  to  tell  you  the  numbei 

ii. — S<  aling  schooners?  A. — No,  I  never  built  any  sealing 
schooners. 

i). — In  your  work  on  this  vessel,  when  yon  to«»k  lirr  she 
!iad  her  cabin  on  board;  she  hadn't  been  stripjied  inside?  A. — 
I  cut  her  in  two. 

ii. — What  was  the  size  of  the  cabin?  ,\. — I  couldn't  tell  you. 

ii- — Well  you  have  some  idea.  A. — 1  might  say  it  was  12 
feet,  and  it  might  (Uily  be  10. 

(J.— Twelve  feet  S(i"uare?       A.— About. 

i]. — What  was  the  size  of  her  forecastle?  A. — A  pretty  long 
forecaNtle;  about  12  feet  long. 

(i.— Clear  across  the  beiim?      A.— T  couldn't  tell  you. 

i). — Did  you  juit  in  any  bins  f»n'  salt?      A. — No. 

(i.— As  a  shipwright  were  you  running  a  yard  of  your  own 
or  were  you  the  emjiloye  of  another?  A.-  I  am  at  Mr.  Lang's 
yard  a  good  deal  of  the  time. 


shipwright  and  boat- 
Sealing  boats?  A. — 


If 


i'A 


ii'i'l 


•,h? 


'€t 


I' 


ft 


,,   .MipiHllf 


r» 


<  •  T^ 


***<' 


lO 


20 


30 


50 


156 

Q. — And  .voti  sjKiik  (if  Imildors'  iiioasnrcincnt.  Wluil  is 
tlic  inoitiiiiif;  of  tluit?  A. — Tluit  is  wliiil  a  iiiiiii  takt'N  his 
toiiiiafjf  fioiii. 

<i. — IK)w  (Iocs  it  ilillci-  from  rt'^jisicri'd  tonuatjc?  A. — 
l-aifi*'!'. 

Q. — Mow  iiiaii.v  cniiic  feet  in  a  biiildt'i's  ton?  A. — Fort v  cii- 
l)ic  f('«'t  in  a  ton. 

Q. — How  many  in  a  roiiistcrcd  ton?  A. — I  couldn't  sav;  1 
never  tifjiired  tliem  up. 

(l — Aren't  tliere  1(15  in  a  refiisteied  ton?  A. — I  don't 
i\now. 

(i. — Y(ni  don't  l<now  anvtliiil);  about  it?  A. — No,  I 
don't  linow  anvtliin^r  about  it. 

Q. — How  many  liuilders'  tons  is  tlie  "Carolena?"  A. — I 
slnild  tliinlv  a1)uut  M.'). 

The  Commissioner  on  tlie  jiai't  of  tlie  I'nited  States: — Q. 
— After  she  was  lenfilhencd  you  mean?  A. — After  slie  was 
len^jtliened. 

Q. — Was  slie  built  of  jiine?      A. — Ye 
Ivnowled}?!'  slie  was  built  of  western  iiine  on  this  coast. 


To  the  best  of  my 


il. — Orefjon  ]une 


A.—Y< 


(). — When  you  say  a  vi'ssel  cost  :t!l.")(t  and  ui»  a  to 


lo  vou 


mean  builders'  tons?       A. — Yes. 


(J. — How  do  you  know 


A. — That  is  a  ^;eneral  sujijiosi- 


tion. 


-I  have  never 


Q. — Do  vou  know  anvlhini;  about  it?      .\. — I  woudn't  take 
it  for  finii. 

Q. — I)(t  you  know  anythiu};  about  it? 
built  any  schooners?      That  is  my  idea. 

(). — Hut  you   have  nevei-  had   any  experience  in   buililiut; 
schooners  at  all?      A. — \o. 

Q. — Did  you  ever  buy  a  schooner?      A. — Never. 


Q.— Sell  one? 


-Never. 


.\. — I  never  built  one, 


(i. — And  never  built  one 
Q. — To  whom  did  you  <.nve  that  receipt  (sliowiuf^  witness 
receipt.)      A. — Captain  I'niuhart. 
Q. — Is  tliat  in  your  handwrilint; 


A. — (referriufi:  to  sifjna- 


40      ture)  Mine. 


i}. — In  whose  handwriting;  is  the  rest?  A. — I  presume 
Cajttain  rripihart's. 

(.1. — When  did  yon  jjivo  it?  A. — Whenever  tlie  job  was 
finished. 

Q.-To  him?  A.— To  Captain  rniuhart.  Q.— After  you 
had  completed  your  work  on  the  '"Carolena  '  at  what  did  you 
value  her  per  t<m?      .\. — <>h,  I  supjtose  about  S}'! (>."). 

Q. — She  was  worth  then  more  tlian  it  wotild  cost  to  build 
a  new  vessel?  A. — "N'oii  have  yot  to  lake  llu>  vessel  a]iart; 
you  cannot  take  her  ajiart  for  nothiu!.':. 

Q.— Then  that  vessel  (hat  has  been  cut  in  two,  and  lias 
been  len<i;thened,  is  better  than  a  new  vessel?       A. — No,  sii', 

cei^liainly  not,  it  takes  mon'  labor  (o  ilo  it  that  way,  she  is 
worth  more  after  you  have  tinished.  It  lakes  more  labor  in 
pro|)ortion  to  do  that  work. 

ii. — Is  she  worth  more  than  a  new  vess<'l  of  that  leufith? 

A. — I  don't  sav  she  would  be  worth  more  to  the  owner. 


Q. — Was  slie  worth  more  on  the  market" 
60      stood  she  was  worth  about  fn.OOO. 
Q. — You  don't  answer  my  cpiesti 


-I  under- 


Was  she  worth  niori' 
than  a  vessel  of  the  same  leufrth,  a  new  vessel?  \. — No. 
AVortli  as  much  anyhow,  all  parts  that   I  know  of  her  wei'e 


A. — I  don't  know. 


sound. 

Q. —  How  old  was  she 

(i. — If  she  was  2.")  years  old  when     you     lenj>lhened     her, 
would  that  make  any  dilTerence  in  Iwr  value?      ,\. — Not  if 


si 


le  was  s< 


>und. 


157 


yon 
von 


"^^m 


10 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


(2. — Wlicii  .voii  (lid  I  lie  work  on  lior  did  von  also  put  on  a 
nt'w  <lc(k?      A. — IMi'tty  luai-  a  ni'W  dt'tk. 

t^.—Morc  than  over  tin-  new  parU  .von  pnt  in,  tla-  k'Ugtlii'ii- 
i„„-/  v._Vou  must  nialvf  sliiHs;  voii  numot  pnt  it  8(inar»' 
across. 

(f.— 1  nii-an  did  .von  pnt  on  any  nion-  Hum  just  over  tlu- 
new  picrt'  \ou  inst-ricd?  A.— Vch,  yon  ninst  make  shifts. 
Kvcrv  alternate  one  almost. 

(^.-L.JiisI  Hie  length  of  the  lioar<l,  hnt  not  the  whole  len>;lh 
of  the  vessel?       A.— Some  of  them  the  entire  length. 

(^._l>i<l  yon  lind  any  rotten  planks  in  the  deek?  A. — No, 
tliev   were   very   sound. 

(}._I)i,l  y„n  lake  any  pieces  out  of  her  hull  and  pnt  in 
any  new  ones?  A.— Yon  must  nmke  shifts;  .von  have  got  to 
go  wa.v  to  each  end. 

(^._.'l)i,l  yon  take  any  pieces  ont  of  her  hnll,  besides  the 
lengtliening  that  .vou  put   in?       .\. — Yes. 

(^— And  pnt   in  n-w  ones?       A. — Yes. 

(2.— Were  they  rotten?       A.— N<k 

(J._  What  did  yon  lake  them  ont  for?  A.— Mecanse  you 
have  got  to  make  shifts  of  planks. 

(i. — Did  you  lint  in  any  other  pieces  beside  that?  A. — 
r\ol   that  I  know  of. 

(i.— Don't  .vou  know?  A.— You  ninst  go  through  each  end 
to  nmke  the  shifts. 

(i. — Did  yon  put  in  any  other  pieces  beside  that?  A. — 
Xot  that  I  can  remember;  nothing  bnt  what  belonged  to  the 
lengthening. 

IJe-direct  examination. 

il. — Did  she  need  any  new  work  at  an.v  place  that  you  ob- 
served?      A. — .Vot   that    I   reinmtber. 

(.1. — If  .von  had,  yon  would  iiave  made  it  at  the  time,  I  sup- 


pose 


A.— Yes. 


(i.— In  the  coarse  of  cutting  her  in  two  in  that  way,  and 
lengthening  he)-,  .vou  liad  occasion  to  examine  her  pretty 
thoroughly,  didn't  yon?       A. — Yes.  ]>rf>tt.v  near  all  to  ])iece8. 

(i- — And  yon  say.  according  to  your  ob.servation,  that  she 
was  sound  all  tlirongh?       A. — Yes. 

Q. — Is  there  any  dilfercnce  between  Oregon  pine  and 
Douglas  tir?       A.— I  think  the  Douglas  fir  is  a  little  harder. 

Q. — You  S!iy  it  s  a  harder  wood?      .\. — Tougher  wood. 

Henry  Ferdinand   Siewerd   called,  and   sworn: 
(Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Teters.) 

Q. — \Vliere  do  you  live.  5Ir.  Siewerd?       A. — ^'ictoria. 

(J.— What  is  your  occupation  at  the  jtresent  time?  A. — 
nuister   mariner. 

Q. — Are  you  engaged  in  thi'  sealing  business?  A. — Y'es, 
hir. 

Q. — I  believe  you  comnmnd  a  sealing  vessel?  A. — Y'es, 
sir. 

<i>. — And  I  dare  say  an'  interested  in  them?      A. — Yes. 

(i. — Have  you  any  interest  in  any  of  the  claims  bi'fore  this 
Convention?       A. — None,   sii-. 

Q. — II()W  long  have  you  had  anything  to  d<)  with  the  seal- 
ing business  in   N'ictoria?       I  started  in  1SS7,  in  September. 

ii. — In  whose  emplovment  did  vou  go  at  that  time?  A. — 
Hall,  (i<.  -pel   &  Co. 

i-l—M  Yictoiia?      A.— Yes.  sir. 

0- — \Yere  they  engaged  in  the  sealing  business?  A. — 
N'es.  sir. 

(^ — Had  they  any  ships  when  you  went  there?  A. — 
They  had  ;in  interest  in  ilie  schooner  Sapphire  and  also  in 
tile   schooner  "Waneia." 


•''¥ 


m 


■1  WjFi 


■,  l<ll«l "» 1^ 


IS3 


;(! 


lO 


20 


3« 


40 


ad- 


so 


60 


around    here?      A. — 
stood  you  lu'i'o  about 


Q. — I  bi'livo  your  connection  with  tlio  tirni  of  Hall,  <5ot'pol 
&  Co.  no  lon|u;«'V  cxiHts?      A. — No,  sir,  I  K'ft  thcni  in  1891. 

().— Whilst  you  w<'n>  with  llall.  «j;oci»»'l  &  t"o.  did  they 
purchase  any  schooners,  and  if  so,  how  many?  A. — I  went 
east  tliree  times  for  tluni  and  purchased  the  schooner  "Au- 
rora," "Ocean  Helle,"  and  "(leneva"  in  1SS7.  1SS!»  and  IS'JO. 

Q. — Where  did  you  fio  to  purchase  these  schooners?  A. — 
To  Ilalifux,  Nova  Scotia,  and  then  to  Lunenb«'rg. 

Q.— That  is  in  1HH7?      A.— Yes,  sir;  tlie  "Aurora."' 

(f. — Now  if  you  will  tell  me  the  tonnage?  A. — About  70 
tons. 

Q. — Was  she  a  new  vessel  when  you  bought  her?  A. — 
About  six  years  old;  she  had  been  a  tishernian. 

Q. — What  was  her  initial  price?  A. — The  first  cost  was 
!f2.400. 

Q. — What  did  she  stand  you  before  you  left  Halifax  with 
her?  A.— $(!,(;()(»,  or  thereabouts. 

Q. — What  did  it  cost  to  bring  her 
About  ^1,20(1. 

(i. — So  that  with  those  tigures  she 
$7,><0(>?      A.— About  that;  yes,  sir. 

(i. — She  was  afterwards  engaged  in  seal  fishing?  A.— 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — The  next  vessel  that  you  got — y(m  mentioned  three 
vessels — did  you  buy  more  than  three?  A. — I  bought  the 
fourth  one,  the  "Doi-a  Sieward." 

Q. — In  what  vear  did  you  buy  her?  A. — In  the  year  1891 ; 
October,  18!)1.  " 

Q. — You  bought  her  where?  A. — I  bought  her  at  Lunen- 
berg  likewise. 

Q. — Was  she  on  the  stocks  when  you  bought  her?  A. — 
She  was  new  on  the  stocks;  yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  did  that  vessel  cost  you  when  you  left  Halifax? 
A.— When  I  left  Halifax  she  cost  |S,74S. 

Q. — What  did  she  stand  your  firm  when  she  was  landed 
!iere?  A. — Landed  here  ou  April  21.  Crew's  wages  paid  in 
fill  ,  total  cost  of  sclK'oner  delivered  at  Victoria  was  l|!i»,t»:{!».20. 
Th'M  includes  new  spars,  new  lore-sail  and  jib,  cordage,  also 
one  hunting  boat  and  a  stern  boat. 

Q. — Could  ycni  give  me  her  tonnage?     A. — !):{  tons. 

Q. — She  was  also  employe  d  by  your  firm  in  the  sealing  busi- 
ness? A. — Yes,  sir  No  by  Hall,  (Joepel  &  Company,  but 
bv  another  comjjanv  I  formed  afterwards. 
■q.— I»id  vou  take  another  vessel?  A.— The  "Ocean  IJelli-" 
was  next.  She  was  bought  in  1890  at  a  first  cost  of  12.40(1; 
she  was  SO  tons  register. 

i-l. — Was  she  new.  A. — She  was  between  six  and  seven 
years  old. 

Q. — Where  was  she  bought?      A. — At  Lunenberg. 

Q.— Originally  cost  |2,400?    A.— Originally  cost  |2,400. 

Q.— Cost  leaving  Ilalifiix?    A.— 1«.800. 

Q.— Slood  you  when  here?       A.— 18,0(10  or  a  little  over. 

tj. — Slie  was  used  by  Httll.  (loepel  &  Company  as  a  sealing 
vessel?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  have  another  one.  the  "Oeneva"?    A. — Y«  s,  sir. 

Q. — Where  was  she  bought?    A. — At  Lunenberg  likewise. 

(}. — Hy  yoiii'self?    A. — S'es.  sir. 

y. — What  did  she  cost?  A. — She  cost  in  the  neighborhood 
of  #8,700  landed  here. 

Q. — Her  tonnage?  A. — Her  tonnage,  I  think,  was  about 
90.      She  cost  |;{,000  fir.st  cost,  was  live  years  old. 

i}. — Now  we  have  then  from  you  the  statement  that  you  in 
the  course  of  your  experience  have  gone  to  Lunenberg,  Nova 
Scotia  to  buy  no  less  than  four  schooners.  I  want  you  to  ex- 
jdain  to  the  Commissioners  why  you  took  the  ti'ouble  of  going 
away  around  tliere?  .\. — Well,  at  th(>  (ime  we  found  it  the 
cheai»est  way  to  get  a  good,  reliable  vessel,  notwithstanding 


'59 


zo 


30 


the  link  of  liriiifjint;  her  iirouiid.     ISuildiii);  hen*  was  ratluT 
(OMtlv  in  lliosc  (l:(,vs  iiiid  we  foiiiid  it  clicMpcst  t(»  p»  then'. 

(^.l_.Ju8t  talce  tiiosf  four  vt'sscls  wo  hnvi-  Bpukcn  of  that 
vou  yourself  brouKlif  around  from  Luncnln-rR,  if  you  had 
"bft'n  atilvcd  to  sell  thiin  lu-ro  at  the  very  fi{?ure  that  they 
cost  you  landed  here,  would  you  have  sold  them  at  that 
price?      A. — \o,  air. 

Q. — Wei-e  they  as  a  matter  of  fact  saleaMy  worth  more? 
A. — They  were,  sir. 
10  (i. — And  if  you  at  that  time  had  built  vessels  of  that  de- 
scription here  in  Viilorla,  could  you  have  built  them  for 
those  figures  or  would  they  have  cost  you  more?  A. — They 
would  have  cost  considerably  more  in  the  early  part  of 
IMST  iuid   ISS!». 

Q. — And  would  the  same  remark  apply  to  ISSO?  A. — 
Well,  it  would  naturally,  because  before  the  C.  P.  K.  was 
ojiened  labor  was  scarce  here. 

Q. — As  a  matter  of  fact,  ran  you  build  vessMs  cheaper 
now  or  the  lasr  few  yeai's  from  18!)(>,  than  you  could  in 
1.SH7?       A.— Considi-rably,   I   think. 

Q. — Supposin'JT  yon  have  a  vessel  of  say  1)0  tons,  and  a  ves- 
sel of  say  30  tons,  and  3on  come  to  figure  what  they  cost  per 
ton,  would  the  small  vessel  cost  more  ]>er  ton  than  the  large 
vessel?  A. — The  small  vessel  would  cost  considerably  more 
Iter  ton. 

Q. — Hefore  going  to  th<'  trouble  of  going  around  to  Lun- 
eiibei'g  to  get  these  Nova  8cotia  schooners,  did  you  make 
(inpiiries  as  to  whether  you  could  get  suitable  vessels  on 
(Ills  side?  A. — Yes.  sir,  I  enquired  at  San  Francisco,  and 
likewise  corresponded   with  parties  on  the   Kound. 

Q. — Of  cours.',  now  I  refer  particularly  to  the  year  1887; 

at  that  tiiiu'  did  you  enquire?      A. — Hefore  I  went  east  the 

first  time,  my  lirm  had  left  it  with  me,  and  I  wanted  to  do 

what   was  right  and  left  nothing  undone  to  inform  myself 

where  the  best  market  would  be. 

Q. — And  having  made  those  enquiries,  you  concluded  that 
it   was  the  cheapest  way  to  go  east?       A. — 1  did. 

Q. — You  considered  that  a  good  business  transaction.  A. 
40      — 1  did.     For  illustralioii  in  the  year  18!H  the  schooner  "Vic- 
toiia"  was  built  here;  she  cost  over  ?ll,000. 

(2. — llow   much   tonnage?       A. — About  75  tons. 

Q. — A\as  she  built  for  sealing?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. -Who  built  her?  .\.— 1  think  Mr.  McDonald  and  Mr. 
Clark;  one  of  the  local  builders  anyhow. 

Q. — In  iidditien  to  the  actual  cost  of  bringing  them 
around  from  Halifax  is  (here  any  considerabh'  risk  of  their 
being  lost?       A. — ^'es.  sir. 

Q. — .\s  a  matter  of  fact  have  some  of  the  vessels  been  lost 
'         coming  around?       .\. — Ye.s,  sir. 

The  Commissioner  <ui  the  ]>art  of  the  I'niti'd  States: — You 
know  perfectly  well  what  that  is — about  .T  i)er  cent.,  per- 
haps 0  jier  cent,  up  here.  The  standard  rate  is  4  1-2  jht 
cent..  New  York   to  San  Francisio. 

Witness: — One  vessel  started  for  me.  the  "Aurora,"  and 
she  came  to  grief  in  tlie  Straits  of  Magellan, 

Q. — ITow   long  does  it   take  one  of  these  vessels  to  come 
around  as  a  rule?       .\. — I  went  (Uie  time  in   108     days,  and 
63      another  time  in   l.">7. 

Q. — You  brought  tlicm  around  youself?  A. — Two  of 
them. 

Q. — I  belii've  y(ni  were  not  jtersonally  accpniinted  with  the 
"Caroleiia?"      .\. — No,  I  was  not. 

Q. — Hut  from  your  knowledge  of  vessels,  take  a  vessel  in 
1887  suitable  for  sealing,  and  of  the  tonnage  of  .'?2  tons  or 
tlierea bonis,  would  ,vou  consider  f 4.000  a  high  or  low  valua- 
tion?     A. — I  should  consider  that  a  very  reasonable  valua- 


f'l 


W:ti 


m 


tei, 
1m 


|f:M 


m 


Ml 


Mi 


m 


' ' 


i6o 


lO 


20 


I 


3« 


.1 


40 


50 


fyo 


ti«»ii  niiiHiilci'iiiu  I  lie  <>x|i('i'ii-iMt>  I  liiid  tit'tci-waniM  in  bu.viiiK 
v«'HM<'Ih. 

ti. — V(»ii  sditc  iis  ii  iiiiitfcr  <»f  fact  tliiit  .voii  ncv*'!-  wiw  tlic 
••rarolciiH?"  A.— 1  will  say  tliat  in  1S!»1  1  paid  !||t;{.'_'()0  foi-  a 
vi'MMcl  about  ."50  ycaiH  old, 

ii. — What  toiinaK*'  was  slic?      A. — 4(». 

<i.— And  that  waH  in  1S!M?  A.— 1S)H  or  llic  lK'j,'innin>,'  of 
1S!H!. 

<i. — I  I)c1i«>vt'  von  have  not  an,v  Hpccial  knowlfd>;«'  oi'  tlii- 
vainc  of  sklnH  in  lSS(i  iMid  ISS7?  A. — No,  sir,  I  was  not 
nnina<rin(;  <Mvn«>r, 

Q, — \V«'n'  .von  scalinj;  in  Ihc  vcar  ISS7?  A. — No  sir,  I  ar- 
rived lifiv  witli  a  vosst'l  in  iShS,  in  Ajnil. 

(i. — Tlicrt'foic  ,voii  cannot  jrivc  anv  cvidcnct'  as  to  llw  sua!- 
inj;  operations  that  year?      A, — \o,  sir. 

i}. — Tlnit  is  all  the  vessels  that  von  can  jtive  ns  any  state- 
ment ahont?      A. — Yes,  sir, 

ii. — Have  yon  fi-oni  yonr  exj»erience  nnide  any  calinliilions 
aH  to  the  annnal  cost  of  provisioning  one  of  these  vessels 
for  a  sealinfj  voyaj?e.  That  is  Si-llled  by  the  number  of  men 
employed  isn't  it?  .\, — Ves,  sir,  since  I  have  lieen  manaj;- 
inf^  the  "Sieward"  my  provisions  when  carryinn  wliitt,'  hunt- 
ers were  in  the  nei,!rhl>orliood  of  ifiJ.liOO, 

ii. — Just  fiive  me  her  tonna^;e  a};'ain?      A. — iV.i  tons. 

ii. — And  she  carries  how  many  men?  A, — She  carries  (i 
lK)ats — stern  boats,  IS  or  l!l  men;  Ii-  men.  The  provision 
bill  for  the  round  vova,!;e  of  about  !)  or  10  months  would  be 
.fU.LMMI, 

ii. — Then  you  have  an  ammunition  bill?  A. — An  ammuni- 
tion bill  besides. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  pai't  of  Her  Majesty; — .Vre  yon 
able  to  say  about  how  much  you  allow  i»er  day  per  man? 
A, — \o  Your  Honour  I  have  never  {jone  into  that. 

ii. — Y(tu  speak  from  your  «'.\perience  <»f  having;  run  that 
vessel  for  how  many  years?  .\. — We  had  while  hunters 
two  year.s — three  years.  That  is  a  fair  averaj^e  compared 
with  other  vessels  likewise  of  the  same  tonnage. 

ii. — That  is  the  amount  it  actually  cost  you  for  those 
three  years?  A. — The  store  bills  here  and  in  Jajtan  to  jtro- 
visi(»n  the  vessel  for  !)  or  10  months,  whatever  the  voya^je 
may  be. 

Q. — That  is  your  actual  e.xjterience?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  pait  of  the  I'nited  States: — That 
is  about  flOO  to  a  man, 

Mr.  Peters:— A  lillle  more  than  flOO  per  man. 

To  Witness: — When  the  vessels  come  back  they  sonu'times 
have  provisions  left  on  board  have  they  not,  tiour,  and  thinjis 
of  that  description?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

ii. — Are  these  ]uacti<iilly  of  nny  value  when  they  return? 
A, — Wo  ftet  very  little  for  them;  of  course  carryinj;  them 
aboard  the  vessel — the  salt  water  doesn't  improve  tlieni  jrny, 

(J, — So  that  when  they  come  back  they  liave  no  saleable 
value.  For  instance,  what  is  the  tlour  sold  for?  A. — 
Sonidtimes  m't  50  t-ents  a  sack,  and  sonu'timea  00,  accordlnfj 
to  the  condition, 

ii. — Who  is  it  boufflit  by?  A. — The  cracker  bakers,  l»is- 
ciiit  nnikers, 

Q. — And  you  ijet  a  mere  nominal  sum?  A, — 50  cents  oi 
(iO  cents, 

ii. — Hardly  a  cent  a  iinund?  A. — .\bout  that, 
Q, — In  addition  to  the  jirovisiou  bill  you  must  have  a  ccm- 
siderable  bill  for  amunition.  Could  you  give  us  any  idea 
liow  much  aniniuiiition  a  vessel  of  21  men  wo\ild  take.  Can 
yon  tell  ns  what  (luanlity  of  jiowdcr,  for  insrance,  you  w<»uld 
put  on  board  that  vessel  for  the  season?      A, — I  fif;ui'e  on  an 


I6l 


20 


30 


so 


60 


iivciiip-  iiIhmK   fioiii  «:t(M»  l<>  f;!r)(l  l<>  keep  Imt  III*  to  lit'i-  iftfU- 
hir  Nliindiii'il. 

Q.— Thill  is  (lie  jM)>v<lrr.  nliot  and  hIicII?  A.--Y('k,  Av,  prim- 
t'l's.  (Ic,  Wilds  mid  nil  llitit  Nort  of  lliiii;;. 

«^».__.\i„l  if  vdii  wfic  Hiiiiliiij,'  out  llif  (list  season  would  tin* 
rosi  he  moil-  w  less?  A.— Tlic  •'Dora's"  oiittlt  tlir  flf.<t  scawm 
WHS  !||il.L'r>(».  {iiiiis,  powder,  iiiiiiiiiinilioii.  shot,  wiids.  et*'. 

(^. — \(,>v  >vc  ciin  eiisil.v  divide  tin  111  into  nuns  and  aiiuimiii 
lion;  voii  would  liiive  how  many  yiiiiB  on  boiird?  A. — I  think 
we  iMii'cliased  fourteen. 

i^.— Ai  alxmt  what?    A.— Hftl'J  I  think. 

iJ._Aiid  the  n  St  would  be  for  iiiinuiinilion?  .\.— Shells, 
IMiwdei'.  Wilds  and  nil  those  tliinns. 

(i.— Then  what  other  expense  do  yon  hiive  on  ii  seiilin^r 
vessel  before  seiidiiifj;  her  out?  A.— The  boa  Is  and  boats' 
'•(|iiipnienls. 

ti.— Von  use  white  hiiiilers,  ami  bouts,  do  you?  \. —  In 
those  yeius  we  did  on  the  "Dorii." 

.Mr.  Teters: — Possibly  1  niijjtht  ask  from  this  witness  the 
value  of  llmse  boats  as  it  comes  up  in  the  titse? 

Mr.  Dbkinson:— I  would  ii  little  rather  put  It  in  the  other 
case. 

Sir.  l?odwell:— This  witness  is  about  to  sail  on  a  soalint; 
voyaj{e. 

To  Witness: — When  are  you  i^oiny?  A. —  In  about  threi' 
weeks  from  now. 

ii. — Your  vessel  is  f;eltin)j;  reiidy?    .\. — Yes,  sir. 

(}. — The  next  tiling  is  ciinoes.  tind  I  believe  you  don't  ofttn 
buy  them'/     .\. — Yes,  we  very  frequently  buy  them. 

(i. — Yon  hadn't  bought  iiny  in  ISSG'/  A. — No,  sir;  bonjjiht 
tluni  liist  yiiir,  or  the  yetir  before. 

ii. — Are  there  any  other  items  of  <'X]'  use  that  you  i)ut  on 
boiird  your  sealiiijj  vessels'/  A. — Cookinj;  utensils,  of  course 
and  a  cei-liiiii  iimiiuiit  of  s|)iire  corda;;'e,  blocks  iind  sails. 

(i.— Of  course  all  the  ordinary  chiirts  and  everythin};  of  that 
^ol•t'/    A. — Yes.  sir. 

(2. — 1>()  yon  know  anything  iibout  what  is  ciilled  a  ■  -ilop 
chest'"/    A. — Yes,  sir. 

ii. — \\ill  you  expliiin  t(»  the  Commissioners  what  a  "slop 
chest"  is'/    A. — It  is  ii  slock  of  clolhinfj. 

The  rommissioner  on  the  jiart  of  the  Tnited  States: — I 
fiuess  we  know  whiit  a  "slop  chest''  is. 

ii. — Is  it  usual  to  ciirry  a.  "sloji  ciiest  with  a  supply  of 
thinjrs  to  be  sold  to  the  crew?     A. — Yes. 

Q. — Tliiit  is  sometimes  owned  by  the  owner,  and  sometimes 
by  the  rii|itinn?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

ii. — Is  it  usuiil  to  jiive  any  cash  to  the  caiiliiin  on  a  loiij; 
voyap'  of  that  descriiition?  A. — Used  to  be  in  former  yeais. 
Tn  early  days  we  alwiiys  ciirried  from  f  IIIO  to  $51)11  to  Ifl.llOK. 

ii. — I  Jut  it  is  not  so  now?  A. — 'No,  sir;  it  is  done  away 
with. 

Q. — Mnt  in  1S8G  it  was  done?  A. — Yes,  sir.  I  carried  it  in 
1  SsiS. 

Q.—  Thiit  was  the  custom  then?    A. — Yes.  sir. 

Cross-exiimination  by  Mr.  IMckinson: 

ii. — ("iiptain,  when  yon  fitted  out  tlie  "Dora  Sieward"  I 
suppose  tliiit  was  not  an  exceptional  equipment?  Yon  did 
not  jjive  her  more  tlnin  usual  for  ii  seiiling  voyage,  or  less 
than  usual?    A. — Have  voii  reference  to  the  provision  Itill? 

Q.— Yes.    A.— About  l?!l'.0(»n  to  f 2,2(10  is  ii  fair  averiige. 

ii. —  If  I  nnderstiind  you,  tluit  is  for  i>  voyiige  to  neliririi 
Heii  and  to  Japiin  before  her  r«'tnru?     A. — She  left  here  the 

n 


'iff 

ffl 


Ml 


\d( 


,,,    IJjpiillV 


i6j 


1 


I    I 


lO 


20 


Itilirr  |»iii-(  of  l>*-<ciiilH-r  tiiid  i«'tiini<'<l  in  the  t-iii'l.v  part  of  Of- 
tiihi'i'.  nu\ini  from  Imtc  to  .la|iiiii  aii<1  Hailiiii;  aloii);  tlu>  Jaiciii 
r<Kist,  iiimI  tliiall.v  up  to  Itfliriiip;  Hca. 

12. — SiipiHiHint;,  Captain,  you  fitted  out  (lie  "Sii-ward"  fur  a 
Novate,  \\v  will  May.  fiMnii  May  until  tlic  iniddlv  of  S<'j)t(inlu'r. 
W'liat  would  you  Hay  uh  to  tlw  proportion  of  lliis  vquipuiciit 
you  would  lit  licr  out  willi?  A. — Woll,  of  iouiho  I  would 
ii|iiali/.<'  (lie  nuittt'i-  and  tind  out  liow  many  Hacks  of  flour  '.t 
would  lako,  and  otlM-r  tliin^H  In  |iroportion. 

t^.— Would  y(tu  nivo  licr  more  tlian  luilf  flic  amount  yon 
would  for  Imlf  llic  timt-?    A. — In  the  pvopiT  proportion. 

i-i- — And  you  would  not  fiivc  lior  more  tluin  lialf  tlic  am- 
UMinilion?  A. — \o.  nir,  I  would  >:ivo  licr  llic  projM'r  propor- 
tion. 

(/. — .\nd  if  you  wore  lining  out  a  Hlii|>  to  go  to  Iti^liring  Sea 
for  tiio  Healing  Hcason.  from  .May,  wo  will  nay — what  in  llic 
end  of  tlic  HcisHon?    .\. — Tlic  latter  pait  of  Septcmltcr. 

(i. — What  ccpiipmcnt  would  yon  give  her  Himply  to  go  to 
itcliring  Sea?  .\. — The  SfU.litM).  for  instance,  covcrn  the  voyjigi", 
of  ten  months,  and  thin  would  only  <'over  a  jtcriod  of  five 
montliH.    Of  conrne  I  would  take  the  ]>roportion. 

(i. — And  you  give  a  lilu'ral  allowance  ho  that  wlien  you 
come  hack  you  laive  somelliing  left?  .\. — It  is  liettcr  to  have 
suHicient  in  casi'  of  emergencies.  I'erliaps  the  ten  montliH' 
jirovisions  would  l»e  snflicicnt  for  twelve  if  it  come  to  a  pincii. 

(i. — .\nd  of  course  you  provide  ammunition  on  tlie  "Sic- 
ward"  for  fourteen  gnus?    A. — Eacli  man  gets  two  guns. 

ii- — ^'ou  were  asked  as  to  canoes,  and  you  said  voti  had 
d(alt  in  canoes?    .\. — The  i>ast  year,  and  tlie  year  before. 

ti. — Where  do  you  get  cances?  A. — Well,  the  Indians  huy 
tliem  Ihcmselvcs,  hut  we  have  to  st.niid  l)y  mid  pay  fjtr  them. 

(i.— Tin  n  in  your  trij»s  yoii  om|»loy  Indians  as  well  as  white 
hunters?  A.— When  I  tirVt  sjioke  of  \\w  !||c.',LMM»  outfit,  we  cai- 
ried  then  wliite  hunters.    The  last  year  I  ciiiricd  Indians. 

Q. — .\ud  wliiit  do  tlie  canoes  cost?  .V. — They  cost  all  tlie 
way  from  #l'fl  to  f40.  They  have  lieeii  enhancing  scmiewhat 
in  value  as  the  demand  has  grown  foi'  them.  The  Indians  are 
getting  the  licst  of  ns.  If  there  is  a  scarcity  of  canoes  in  a 
[diice.  they  make  us  jiay  for  tlu'm. 

Q. — That  has  Iteen  the  tendency  witliin  the  last  tlire*'  years? 
A. — Since  I  have  hei  ii  connected  with  if  the  tendency  lias  l»ein 
to  rise  in  value  of  tiie  canoes,  and  in  some  <-ani]is  tiiey  are 
lower  llian  in  otlicrs. 

(.i. — Hut  tlierc  was  not  so  niudi  scaicity,  and  such  high 
prices  when  you  commenced?  A. — .\l)out  two  years  ago  there 
was  atioiit  the  same  demand  as  now. 

ii. — Now  xdii  sneak  of  the  fund  handled  by  the  capain  on 
starting  out  on  tliis  long  voyag<> — 

Tlie  ('ommissioiicr  on  the  jiart  of  flie  T'nifed  States: — Did 
50    lliis  witness  testify  anylliing  as  to  the  cost  of  canoes? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — He  sjioke  of  their  taking  canoes. 

TIic  Coiiimissioiicr  on  tlie  part  of  tlie  riiitcd  States: — As  to 
flic  cost  of  them? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Ih-  did  not  on  direct  examination;  I  am 
asking  liim. 

The  ('ommisxioiier  on  the  [lart  of  Her  ^lajesty: — We  did 
not  catcli   whet'ier  lie  stated  to  voii. 


30 


40 


60 


Mr.   Dickinson: — Tie  did,  your  Honour 

(J. — Is  tlie  e(iiii|uiieiit  for  a  sealing  voyage  better  than  it 
was  formerly,  more  lil>eral  and  Ix'tter  stores?  A. — No,  sir, 
I  don't  know  as  they  ai'c. 

Q. — Al»oiil  the  same  as  when  you  first  rommeiiced?  A. 
— Of  course  tlure  are  more  cainied   meats  now   being   used 


I  ^'3 


tliiiii  roiiiHTl.v;  it  Im  iliciiiMT  (liiiii  wliat  suit  iiM'iit  Ih. 

(^.—Ndw,  11  word  iiK  III  tin-  vchmcIm.  W«'  will  liikc  tin- 
IliKl  vcHHcl  til  wliirli  vnii  liiivc  H|i(iki'n,  llic  •Aimnii."  Y<in 
lioiijriil  In  r  ill  IS,«7  in  Nomi  Scotia,  iiiiil  kIic  rtml  lf_',4(MI  I 
Ihiiik  voii  Hialcil,  tiiiil  was  hIx  .years  old?       A.-  Yi-s.  sir. 

tj.—'WIiat  did  ,\oii  liii.v  liir  *1M(M(?  A.— Tin-  vessel  as  she 
lav  I  here,  I  hat  is,  I  lie  vessel  liiill,  sjiai-s,  and  whatever  sails 
lielon^ed    to   lier,   anrhors,   eahles,  eoinpass. 

11 — III  ««"><•   i'<'l>iiii''       A.— I   had   to   lake  inv  ehaiices  on 
'o   that. 

il. — What  .von  added  lo  lier  was  in  the     iialnre  of    over- 
hanliiiK  and  "re|iairiii;,'     her?  A.— OverhanliiiK     the     riKt?liig, 
tiverhanlin^'  the  sails,  hauling'  her  np  on  the  wa.vs  al    llali 
fax. 

il. — .\iid  whil  was  she  worth  ns  she  stood  liefore  .von 
Ininlcd  lier  out  and  did  her  re|iairint;?  A.— Von  eaniiot  as 
certain  (he  Iroiilile  until  yon  haul  lier  out  and  see  her  liol- 
toin. 

ti. — What  was  slie  worlh  liefore  yon  liad  jint   on  any  re- 
20   pairs?      A.— In  that   market  she  was  evidently  worth  what 
I   paid  for  her. 

Q. — Von  didn't  dlHcover  that  she  was  worth  any  more  in 
that  market,  did  yon?  A. — I  went  around  and  drove  the 
li(>st  har^'aiii  I  conid,  and  t;ot  the  best  I  conid  tor  (he  mone.v. 

(i.—  What  did  you  estimate  her  value,  as  you  hauled  her 
out  there?       A. —  In  Halifax? 

Q. — Ves,  in  Xova  .<cotia?  \. — I  couldn't  well  put  any 
mor<>  value  on  her  than  what  I  ]iaid  for  her. 

Q. — Yon   wouldn't  say  she  was  worth  any  more     in     the 

30    m;irket?       A. — Of  course  a   man   thinks  he  has  ^fot  a   tfood 

liarjjcain.  and  worth  a  little  more  than  he  has  ]iaid  for  her. 

(i. — Just  pive  US  the  value  after  you  had  hauled  her  out 
ami  examined  her?  A. — I  considered  I  had  a  }r<iod  liar^taiu 
at  flMil 

Q— Then  what  did  .von  do  to  her  to  make  n]i  the  *(i.(l(Ml? 
A. — I  overhauled  her  thoroufrhly,  had  her  caulked,  had  her 
metalled,  and  ecpiijiped  her  for  a  leiifrthy  vo.va},'*'.  jirovided 
for  all  einerKt'U'ies  that  iiiittht  occur,  that  is,  supplied  spare 
sails,  and  tr<it  everylhinjr  in  shijishape. 
4°  Q. — Put  in  new  spars?  A. — No.  sir.  I  think  there  waB 
a  storm  try-sail,  and  a  spare  foresail. 

Q.— And' it  cost  to  liriiif?  her  around  !jil,2(»0?  .\.— There- 
alionts. 

Q. — What  could  y<ni  have  laid  her  down  here  for,  could 
you  have  laid  her  down  here  for  the  same  mone.v  without 
the  rejiairs  on  her?  A. — \o.  sir. 

Q. — It  wouldn't  liJive  lieen  safe  to  come  around  on  her? 
A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — And   what  did   yon   do   to   the    'Dora    Sieward"   when 

'      .vou  houfiht  her  on  tlie  stocks  new?       A. — T  jiut  three  sheets 

of  copjier  on  the  keel,  and  tw(i  sheets  np,  and  then  after  she 

was   landed   ]ir(iceeded   to  look   her  over     to     purchase     her 

stores,  jtet  sails  made  and   <;et    her  jirovisioned. 

Q. — And  the  other  ships  that  you  purchased,  tile  Ocean 
Helle  ami  tiie  ticiievii,  I  suppose  that  tliev  were  worlh  alion* 
what  you  jiaid  for  them  liefort'  .von  had  done  auylhinu  lo 
them  yourself  as  they  stood?  .\. — Ves,  sir.  I  should  think  so. 

(i. — What    was     the  cost     of  <-opperin}j;     lliis     vessel — tin- 
Co   .Vuiora?     A. — I   think   the  Aurora   cojiper  was  !|4(!0,   copper 
and  putlinjr  on;  il  was  IS  and  UO  ounce  metal. 

<i. — Now.  at  the  jirc  seiil  time,  lo  illustrate,  what  could  (he 
"Aurora"  he  Iniilt  for  in  1S!>:{,  say?  A.— I  think,  al  the  pres- 
ent time,  the  local  builders  can  comiiete,  that  is,  consideriiit; 
the  price  laid  down  here. 

(i. — Tliat  is,  il   is  in   their  favor  .just  the  cost  of  briiifjinn 


('I'll 


t   h 


around'; 


1  es    sii 


lO 


20 


164 

ii. — III  t'iivdi'  of  tlic  hniil  Imildcr?  A. — Vi's,  sir.  it  would 
<-o.s(  iis  iiiiicli  l<»  brill};  a  vcssi-l  nrouiid  and  lay  her  down  lii-ir 
as  the  additional  (OMt. 

ii. — Now  what  was  tiii'  Anroia  built  of?  A. — Of  b^t'tli, 
Icaix  and  biirli. 

ii. — And  of  what  wi'if  her  masts  built?  A. — Orcf^on  I'inu 
J  think. 

i-i- — .Vnd  the  Dora  Sicward?  A. — Siic  is  built  of  hard- 
wood, bt'i'fli  and  biicli  princiitallv;  her  spars,  Orcfion  I'iiii'. 

i.— The  Ocean  Mcllc  likcwisi- 
About   the  sainc  niatciial   1 


(i.— And  the  Ocean  Uelle? 
Q. — And   the   (iciieva" 


(2.— Hardwood,  .ill  of  ihein?      A. — Ves  .sir. 

iy — IMd  you  see  any  pine  siiips  built  in  N'ova  Scotia?  A. 
— Well,  'he  slieathiiii;  may  be  pine. 

ii. — The  limberiii};?  A. — No,  sir,  not  those  tishermeii  that 
]  have  been  in  the  lialiit  of  bnyiiifi. 

i-i. — ^dii  never  found  any  built  on  the  -Mlaiitic  Coast  of 
jiine  in  all  your  e.\amiiiatioii  did  you?  A. — I  (Uily  examined 
the  tisliermeii. 

ii. — Well,  fisheriiien,  this  <-lass     of  ships  "J 


A.— N 


o.       Sll 


i]ially  beech  and  liirch — hackmati 


ii. — They  are  better  than  piiii 


'U'l   liiev? 


-■S'es,  sir. 


ii. — Makes  a  better  and     more     substantial  vessel  does  it 


not" 


A.— V^ 


1  should  jiid 


Ke-direct  examination. 


ii. — There  is  one  (iiiestioii  1  want  to  briiifj  out,  and  that  is  in 
re}i;ard  to  the  purchase  of  canoes?       Voii  stated  to  Mr.  Dick 
30      iiisoii  that  you  lioiijiht  some  canoes.    That  was  in  late  years? 
A. — This  jiast  year  and  the  year  before. 

ii. — With  regard  to  the  year  ISSti.  or  1SS7.  you  did  not  pur- 
chase any  canoes?  A. —  N'o.  sir,  ISSS  was  the  firs'  year  I 
went  out  with  Indians;  I  did  not  have  to  ]iiirchas<-  any. 

ii. — Do  you  remember  the  first  year  you  di<l  actually  pur- 


chase canoes ; 


A.— In  1S!I;- 


C^.—  So  that  your  kiiowIedjj;e  of  the  selliiifj,-  price  of  canoes 
is  confined  to  the  time  when  voii  dealt  in  them?       A. — Yes, 


♦  ♦M 


40 


60 


ii. — And  you   don't   j^ive  any  evidence  as  to  the   value  of 
canoes  in   ISSti?     A. — N'o.  sir.  because  I  di<ln't  have  anv. 


C>. — And  I  understand  von  to  sav — I  don't  kno\ 


,'heth 


was  correct  or  not — that 


de]ieiids  very  much  on  circumstaiK 


you  have  to  ]iay  tiie   Indians 


A.— If  Ihere  are  but 


a   very  lew  can 
to  the  supply. 


oes  oil  hand  I  hey  |iul   the  price  up  accordiiifj 


ii. —  \'ou  were  asked  by  m.\-  learned  friend  as  to  what  wood 
these  vessels  were  liiiill  of.  and  you  slated  some  of  the  ves- 
sels, namiim  lliem  were  built  of  beech'aml  birch — liardwo(Ml, 
-Mv  learned  friend  seems  to  think  it   is  the  best   wood  in  the 


world. 


\(pu    know     much  about  the  dilTereiice 


(1^ 


A.— I   doii'l    ch 


to    I 


ic  a    sll 


ipb 


<l< 


I    iiiidersland    .Mi 


Dickinson  to  mean  Nci\a  Seoija  pine,  I  do  not   mean  Ore^jiui 


pine. 


I. —  ^'oii   mean   to  say   that    a    vessel   built    of  Oregon    pirn 


woiihl   be  far  belii-r  than   liard\ 


A.— I 


that    now.      I    under! 
{line. 

ii. — The   •'(■aidleii,!"    is    sini|pos(d    to     h 
Dou};las  (ir;  is  thai  uood  malerial?     .\.-    ^ 

ela. 


am   i| 


iialif 


Vint;- 


(1   .Mr.   Dickinson  to  sav   Nova   Scolia 


iieeii    built    of 


<ir;  Ih 


•Wan 


alioiil 
bollo 


years  old,  bou^iil   by  me  in    ISid.  has  ^.^oi   the 


lii'i-  vet.  of  Doiu 


ii. — So    ( iial  is  every  bit    as   jjood   as   hardwood', 


-Yes, 


0. 


•o  iliiii  'f  \(iU  were  iiiiicliasiiin  a  \ess( 


I  as  b'l 


ween  one 


built  of  haidw'Mid  and  one  built  of  Doii);'las  lir,  would  there 


'm 


I 


10 


16; 

he  Miiv  clioitf?    A. —  I   would  take  llii'  one  jih  iradily  iis  llie 
oilier. 

ii. — Willi  regard  10  i»i-o\i'^ii)iiN,  you  luive  f^iven  us  a  jjciu'ral 
slatciiiciil.  W'lial  class  of  ]iro\'isioiis  do  vou  put  ou  lioai'd 
tlicsc  scaliuK'  ships?  A. — Wf  lia\<'  iu  Ilic  uiaiu  carried  llie 
sauie  kiud  of  provisions — jidod,  hi  bslantial  and  witli  more  or 
less  canned  piods,  and  so  forlli. 

(.1 — l>o  lilt  men  i<'iinire  (o  lie  \V(  II  fed?  A. — Keasonablv 
fed,  yes.     Xo  e.\l la vaf;ance  or  In.xnries  alioni  it. 

(2. — (iood  food?     A. — ^'es,  sir;  jjdod.  sulistanlial  food. 

Q. — What  kiud  of  canned  goods?  A. — Here  iu  late  years  it 
has  been  found  that  canne(l  beef  and  mutlou,  for  instance, 
is  cheap<'r  than  bai'relled  sail  beef.  Of  course  salt  beef 
shi-inks  consideralily  in  the  <(iokinf;,  and  canned  bet'f  is  riylit 
there. 

i-i. —  I  would  like  lo  ask  you  what  <|uanlily  of  salt  you  carry 

(Ui  a  voyajre,  referriii};  now  lo  the  "Dora  Siewar<l."  the  oiu'  we 

have  been   I'eferrinj;'   o  all   alonji   with    rejiard   lo  supplies — 

20     about  what  i|uanlity  .il   salt  do  you  jinl  on  her  for  a  voyaj^e? 

.\. —  l'''roni  eifihl  lo  ten  Ions. 

(i. — There  was  another  (|ueslinu  that  .Mr.  IMckinsou  asked 
you  in  I'ffiard  to  amniuuilitui.  He  said  that  if  a  vessel  was  ^o- 
iuji-oul  for  a  Ulincuilhs"  v<iyaj;e.  he  asked  you  to  compare  thai 
wi!h  a  Vessel  that  was  (uily  jit'bij;  out  for.  say,  live  mouths, 
and  he  said,  or  I  think  he  induced  you  lo  say  that  that  would 
necessarily  cut  the  animunilion  iu  two;  that  you  wmild  only 
want  half  as  much  in  ^loiujj;  lo  Mehring'  Sea  for  live  months  as 
for  the  whole  leu  ukuiIIis?  Is  that  <-orrecl?  A. — 1  would 
30  have  lo  lifiure  on  what  c;!l(  li  I  expected  to  make  on  the  .lapau 
I'oasl. 

(2. — As  a  nuilt*  r  of  fact,  do  you  not  look  fiu'  a  \nn  catch  in 
r.ehrinj;  Sea?  A. — Ves,  but  in  the  pi-eseut  larcumslaiU'cs  you 
lire  not  allowed  to  shoot  there.  In  former  veais  that  wouldn"! 
hold. 

(i. — I'pon  that  iiiiint,  when  you  were  speaking'  of  the  ammU' 
nili<ai  put  on  board  lhe"l>ora.  Siewai'd,"  yon  wei'e  sjieakiuj;- of 
il  tri])  when  you  cannot  shtol  in  Mehrin^'  Sea.  Therefore  you 
want  noammuniliou  foi'  Itelniu  Sea?  A. — Speakiufiof  former 
■+  yc.irs  when  we  were  allowed  lo  j^o  lo  Itchrin;^  Se.M.  of  course 
one  half  <>f  the  amniiiniiion  would  not  be  sulllcieni,  bei'ause  in 
I  hose  years  the  principal  calch  was  made  in  Uehriny  Sea. 

{}. — There  would  be  a  larjrer  prop(U'li(Ui  of  ammunition 
I'cijuired  foi'  Mehrinj;  Sea  than  Ihe  other  part  of  it?  A. — 
''es.  sir. 

ii. — That  is  shown.  I  belie\c,  by  Ihe  catch  fiu- years?  A. — 
Yes.  si  I'. 

Q. — The  I.MrfT'sl   calch   was  iu  Hehriiig  Sea   until   these  re- 

;;ulalions?       .\. —  K.xplainint;  Hie  nature  of  11 Dora's"  voy- 

a;;e,  I  say  we  went  lo  .lapan  .and  up  to  the  Conimodore  Is- 
lands, in  that  '-ase  we  W(uild  only  rec|uire  one  half  Ihe  ani- 
niunition. 

Q. —  Mut  if  ymi  had  been  noiun  lo  Ihe  I'.ehriiin  Sea.  and 
iisiiiK  the  aniiihiuiliou  there  willioiil  the  re;;ulalions.  that 
would  not  ap|(l.\.  and  you  would  re(|iiire  a  larnci'  ](roi)(utiou 
of  anuiiuniliou?       .\. — Ves.  sir. 

(ISeci'oss.i 

Go  Q- — NNhen  did  yiui  brinjr  the  "Sieward"  around'  .\. — In 
Ihi'  siu'int;  of  isiiii,  purchased  iu  Oitobei',   isoi. 

(i. — .\nd  you  wei'e  not  fj;i\iufr  the  ei|nipiiienl  of  the  "Sie- 
ward" as  i'e(|uii('d  in  \s>.)-2:>  ,\.— I  am  liivinjj  tor  Ihe  full 
.<"avon  of  l.'^'ft,  and   IS!H,  she  arrived  here  iu  .\|ail. 

(i.— You  were  Hiving  il   for  ISiCt?       .\.— 1S!I;{.  and   Isitl. 

')• — NN  as  there  any  rep:u!alioiis  |uc\('uliug  yoiii'  shooiiun 
up  there  iu   ISi)!?       A.- We  weiil    In  .lapaii   llien. 

Q.  -  Did  you  at)  into  MehriuK  Sea?  .\.  No,  sir,  she  has 
not   been   lo  Mehriun  Sea  except    tli(>  hisl   two  yea-s. 


;e 


'    I 


\'j6 

(^.__\Vtll,  I  siiii|M)S('  vol'  liiid  the  saiiic  infoi-ination  iiud 
kiiowlftl^^f  of  llif  jiuiclias  •  of  sliips  in  ]SS(J  and  1.SS7  that 
vou  liavf  of  .iuiocs.  In  rcitly  to  Mr.  I'ctcrs  yon  said  you 
'  had  no  knowh'djic  »>f  'in'  l»ni(has(>  of  canoes  in  ISStJ  and 
1SS7.  Yon  have  no  k'.owh-dfte  of  tlic  iimrhasc  of  ships  in 
ISSCt  and  1SS7  for  the  scalinfi  business,  liave  yon?  A. — Woll, 
only  what  I  "iatiieicd  it  ttie  time,  before  1  was  conunissioned 
by  I  lie  tirni.  1  in*'.iinied  myself  as  mneh  as  I  eould  at  San 
Francisco  and  1 1'  Sound  here. 
lO  (i. — You  ma-^c  no  |nircliiisi>  of  sliips  prior  to  1^87?  A. — 
Xo,  sir. 

(i.— Tliis   teslimony   all    has   reference   to   since   that    time, 
doesn't    it?       A. — Yes,   sir. 


'«M 


William  Turpel,  a  witness  called  on  the  part  of  fireat  Krit- 


20 


am,  \v 


IS  dnlv  sworn. 


Direct  examination  bv  .Mr.   I'.odwell: 


(i-v 


our  name  is 


Will 


laiii  Tiii'i 


■I: 


A. — Yes,  sir. 
-^■es,   sir. 


t^. — .\iid  you   live   in   N'icloria? 

il. — NYliat    is   your   occu]iation?       A. — .\    sliipwrinht. 

<5. — Where  did  you  learn  your  trade?  A.— I  learned  my 
trade  first    in   Nova  Scotia,  Maitlaud. 

(2.— How  Ion;;  a^d  was  that?  A.— That  was  ISO  years  afi'o. 

t^. — And  from  thai  place  where  did  you  no?  A. — Cali- 
fornia   was  the  liist. 


(i.— .\nd   I  hen'. 


~l'"r(uii   there  to  A'ictoria. 


ears 


V^. — How  Ion;;'  since  you  came  to  N'ictoi'ia", 
last   Ajiril. 

(}. — What  did  yon  do  iu  Vict(n'ia?  .\. — \Vell.  1  worked 
for  awliile  at  most  aiiytliiiiH  1  could  do;  Ihiiifi's  were  pretty 
<|uiet. 

(J. —  How    loiiii'   belore  you    be^an    to    woi'k   a  I    your   tra<le 
do  you  think 
ti'ade. 


A. — Oil,  not  ver\-  lomr.  until  1  worked  at  mv 


^o       <2. — How   did  you    llrsi    bej^iii    worldlier,   I   mean    to  say   In 


what    cajiacity' 


A.     J 


oiM'iievmau.  (lav  s   work 


ik 


Then   I   rented  a   vard.  known 


il. —  How  loiii;  (lid  you   work  iu  that  way?       .\. — Xol   very 
loiiji;  three  or  four  years. 

(i.— And   what    th("-n? 
by  the  name  tif  (lie  "Mar"  yard. 

H. —  Ho  yon  know  when  ymi  i(  nted  that  yard?    .\. —  1  think 
it  was  in  ISSI!  I  rented  it. 

(2. —  Had  you  laki  n  ;iiiy  contract  for  sliijis  bef(U'e  \ou  rented 
that  yard?    .\.   -  Not  pailiciilarly. 

<i. —  How  loll';  (lid  you  ((intiiuie  that  yard?    .\. —  1  was  there, 
somewiiere  alioiit   two  years,   1   think. 

<i.     I»i(l   villi  build  any  ncsscIs  there?     .\. — Yes;  biiilt  two 
I  mall  till:  lioats  l!ierc. 


(i.-  'riieii  what  did  .\(iii  (l( 


Whin  1 


dear  of  that  I 


r,o 


worked  a  little  sjiell  at  jdunicyMian  W(U'k;  then  I  boiii,'ht  this 
t  'cut  re  ship  y;ird. 

(^  How  hai};' did  y(ui  own  that  yard?  .\. —  I  think  1  owned 
that  y;ird  al:(iii(  (en  years. 

(^     .\iid  have  been  eiiiiai;i  d  in  shipbnildin;;  at   thai   place 


ever  since 


Y 


es.  sir. 


<>■  What  class  of  vessels  have  you  built  ?  .\. — Some  small, 
and  s(aiie  pretty  };()i)d  sized.  .V  couple  of  s(>alin;;  schooiiei's; 
iplite  a  few  lii;.'s. 

(>. —  I  belie\('  \(iii  have  built  a   \'ewsel  of  ronsideiable  sl/e — 


a  lar 


"('  sleamei 


.\.     V(S. 


H.  -What   was  her  (onna^ 


.\       I 


dn't 


sav. 


ii.     Well,  aeiieially?    .\.     Well.  I  should  s", ,  she  would  be 


KM)  l( 


likelv. 


■M: 


lO 


30 


40 


50 


60 


167 

Q. — N(iw  hcfoii'  I  f-o  into  Vdur  cvidtiui'  particiiliiily,  do  you 
know  iinvdiinff  iilioni  llic  ri'lnlivc  vninc  of  Doiif^liis  fir  iintl 
(dlicr  woods  for  sliipliuildin^?  A. — ^V^'I1,  I  niifjlil  lio  a  little 
prcJiidictMl,  lint  I  think  it  is  the  best  wood  I  have  over  worked 
(ov  shipbiiihlin^'. 

(jneslions  by  tile  Coniniissioner  on  tlie  part  of  tlii'  United 
Wlates: — What  jiait  of  tlie  vessel  do  vi.u  use  it  for?  The  wliole 
iiiill?     A.— The  whole  hull. 

(i. — I'dr  ceilini"',  hiheathin^',  tinilenng  out,  beams?  A. — ^'ea, 
sir. 

ii. — What  do  you  use  foe  knees,  the  same?  A. — 'W's.  sii';  it 
is  fine  material. 

<i. — .\bove  water  line  and  under  wat(  r  line?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Kxaminatioii  i-esnmed  by  Mr.  Ilodwell. 

(2. —  I  am  {ioinji  to  ask  you  if  you  know  anythinj;  about  the 
schooners  that  had  been  brouf^ht  around  from  Nova  Scotia  to 
be  used  in  the  s(  aliufi  busine.-^s  here?  A. — V<'s.  I  know  a  jiood 
deal  about  them.  K.xcept  one  oi-  two.  I  think  I  have  hauled 
them  all  out  on  the  marine  railroad  and  gi'eased  ways,  an<l 
done  more  or  less  i-ej»airs  on  them. 

ii. —  In  that  way  you  think  you  have  seen  nearly  all  that 
came  round?  A. — Every  one  that  came  from  the  oast,  but 
one. 

Q. — Have  you  ac(|uired  in  that  way  any  infornmtion,  or 
formed  any  opinion  as  to  the  relative  cost  of  buildini;  a 
:-ichooner  of  that  {'lass  here  as  compared  with  the  schooners 
iirou^hl  around?  .\. — Well,  we  couldn't  build  here  that 
class  of  scliooners  of  this  material  we  ti'ct  hei-e  for  the  sauu' 
UMUiey. 

i}. — .UhiuI  what  ditl'ei-eiice,  do  vou  say?  .\. —  1  believe 
that  one  of  our  vessi  Is  built  of  the  Douiilas  tir  will  outwear 
lliree  of  the  bilch   top. 

ii- — I  low  would  yon  coiUjiare  the  price  of  a  vessel  built 
here  with  one  broujiht  ar'.)und  from  there  at  the  jtrice  at 
which  obtained?  A. — W"ll.  <'f  course  it  would  bo  a  ijood 
deal  more  because  they  c(uild  deliver  them  hero  (.-lioaiM'!" 
than   to  build   tliem   here. 

(J. —  How  much  clieaiier?  A. — Well.  I  think  i|uite  a  little 
bit.  I  have  talked  to  (piile  a  few  of  the  owm  rs  who  ha\'e 
liroujilit  theui  out.  ,'ind  they  tell  me  what  they  cost  hei'e  in 
\icloria.  They  couldn't  be  built  here  for  $:V»IH»  or  f 4,0tM», 
it  would  be  the  cost   of  the  out  lit   anyway. 

Q. — Now.  had  vou  anv  interest  in  makint;  that  en(piirv? 
A.— I   had. 

iy — What  wai  it?  A.  -T  didn't  like  to  see  them  fro  back 
there  and  fret  them.  I  thoufiht  we  could  probably  build 
them   here  just   as  clu  aii. 

C^. — And  yon  made  entiuiries  for  that  jiurpose?  .V. — Yes, 
sir,   th.'it    very   purpose. 

Q. —  Xow,  ha\(  you  l)nill  ai  \  .s'ealint!'  schoonei's  here 
yourself?       .\.  -I   built    two. 

Q.  — What  was  the  tirst  <un'  vou  biiilf?  A.— The  "Mav 
I'.ell.'." 

Q.— Whi'ii  did  yon   build   her?       .\.-  The  year   ISSO-flil. 

(i. — What  is  her  net   tonnafic?       A. — ."iT  Ions. 

ii. —  How    did    Miu    build    her,    under    what    circumstances? 

.\. —  1  just  built  her  for  a  round  sum.  I  was  to  build  her 
ami  spiir  her,  ami  jait  the  sails  on  her,  for  .1f<i,."(ll>  That  was 
the  ciMiiracl. 

♦i. — How  di<l  that  M.ulvact  turn  out  fiu'  von?  .\. —  [  jrot 
left   on  it. 

(}. — Kx.tcilv;  what  do  \ou  uiean  by  that?  You  mean  you 
went    bi  hind?        .\.-  Yes.   sir. 

Q.     How   mmh?       A.-  Ilelweea   f.llO  and  .fl.DDI). 


'.ii 


.»M 


lO 


.:o 


4^' 


tjO 


i68 

il. — Did  VDU  liiiv  votii-  iiiiiti'iiul  to  <^om\  jHlvantago  in 
iMiildiii".'  lliat  ship?  A. — Yes.  one  tliiiij;  probably  lliat  made 
iii(>  do  il  a  littb-  clicapci',  lo  start  in  I  bad  (|uitc  a  litl!<-  tini- 
bci'  in  tlic  .vai'd  which  I  could  work  in,  and  I  was  anxious  to 
sec  what  they  could  be  built  for,  so  I  went  to  work  and  I 
buill   lici'. 

(2. — And  yet  you  bad  this  material  on  hand?  A. — Yew, 
sir. 

(i- — \Nbicli  yoii  Ihoujilil  you  could  use  to  advantage?  \. — 
Yes,  sir.  If  it  had  not  been  for  that  1  would  have  lost 
more  than  T  did. 

The  Commissioner  on  Ihc  ]iar(  of  the  United  States:— 
When  was  this  ve.s.sel  built? 

Mr.   r.odwell:— In   ISSO. 

-Mr.   Dickinson:— 1>;S!»-)M)  lu-  .said. 

Q- — Now.  did  you  build  any  other  schooners?  A. — Yes, 
tliat  year  I   built  anotiier. 

Q.— >^tate    tile  circiimslanc(>s   of     the     building  of     that 

schooner?       A.— I  was  pretty  well  jiosted  when  I  started  in 

on  her,  and  I  made  tiu>m  an  offer  what  I  would  build  tlie 
schooner  for;  ^ol  an  agreement  drew  np;  the  contract  jtrice 
was  fit »,.')(»». 

(^ — Had  you  any  connection  witli  it  yourself?  A.— 1 
was  supposed  lo  lake  n  certain  ]K)rlion  when  she  was  com- 
jdeted. 

(i.— What   is  her  lonini}>('?       A. — She  rejjisters  ")(»  Ions. 

(i.— Xow,  in  liuildlnt«  that  schooner,  how  did  you  obtain 
your  materi.ils'  A. — I  i)aid  evervthin<j  in  casli  rifjht 
straight. 

Q. — Did  you  tict   cood  juices?       .\. — I  pot  reduced  prices. 

(i. — Au<l  you  bonjiht  en'rylhinp;  for  cash;  now  how  did 
you  come  out  on  that  transaction?  A. — AVell,  I  paid  out 
l(t.i:{(l  <»dd  dollars. 

(J.— To  other  peojde?       .\. — To  other  people. 

(i. — And  how  much  lime  did  you  put  in  on  her  yourself? 
-^- — Oh,  between   tlir-'e  and   four  nmnths  building  lier. 

Q. — Did  you  have  any  foreman  or  designer,  or  nmn  of  that 
kind  to  i)ay  in  connection  with  the  transaction?  A. — Xo, 
I  jtaid  no  nmn  ''or  that   work,  just  jonrneynu'n  wages. 

li. —  Did  you  lit  ou(  foi'  the  sealing  voyage?      A. — Y(>s. 

Q.— Can  you  tell  us  wliat  she  cost  at  Iface  Rocks  readv  f(n' 
sealing?  A.— When  1  lowed  her  down  lo  Hace  Hocks  she 
cost  #i:{.:.':!i».!n. 

(i,— 1  believe  you  h.ive  (lie  vouchers  for  all  those  jiav 
ments  here?       A. — ^'es,  sir. 

(l — .\iid  llial  is  llie  exiict  auu>uiit  taken  from  the  vouch- 
ei's?       .^.-— "\'es. 

(^— Now  t'ie'>  .Mr.  Tuipel  if  you  Imd  to  build  thnt  schoner 
the  "Siidie  Tui'iiel"  in  \i<((iria  in  the  yeai'  ISStl.  or  any  year 
from  I  SSI  lo  lss7  would  it  have  cost  mcu'e  or  less  to  liuild 
it.      A. —  Well  I  have  an  idea  il  would  cost  a  little  more. 

(J.— Win  do  you  say  thai?  .\.— The  metal  spikes  and 
galvanized  spikes  were  a  good  deal  higher  at  that  time. 

<i.  -Can  you  give  us  anv  idea  of  the  iui<-es  of  tliose  arlic 
Ics? 

The  Commissioiief  on  tin-  i>:irt  of  the  Inilcd  Slates: — I>h 
you  want  us  lo  biiihi  the  schnoner  here.  I  should  think  you 
had  gone  f.ir  eiiongh  into  that. 

.Mr.    Modwell:— I    thought    il    would    be   useful    to   the   (Nmi 
niissioners  to  c(un|iaic  the  prices,  tmd   then     il      would     be 
simply  ;i  mailer  of  iirgiiment  ami  inf(  fence  as  lo  whether  the 
cosi    would   be   higher  or  lower.       The   witness  savs  it    costs 


169 


10 


20 


.iO 


.|0 


iiioi'c.  I  iiskcd  tlic  (iiK'slion  because  I  tlioii^lit  it  would  be 
useful  to  Vmir  Honours  to  consider  {{enerally  the  iM'i<'e8  of 
(lie  j)i'inci|)i>l  niiit<>riiils  foi'  tliose  vears  as  compared  with  tlie 
vear  in  wliicli  (lie  Sadie  'riifpel  was  built. 

The  Connnissioners  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — 
Take  voni-  own  coiirsi'. 

(). —  V(ni  siiv  the  cost  of  metal  spikes  was  much  hiyhet 
then?  Xow  tlieii  take  lumber?  A. — Lumber  at  that  time 
|»er  tiioMsand  would  averaf^e  from  about  |!l(i  to  ^2(!,  and 
wiien  1  built  it  was  fiom  .^12— ri}i;ht  now  it  averatfH  from  |>S 
tollilS.  When  I  built  the  Sadie  1  think  I  j)aid  *10  per  thous- 
a'ld  for  round  iumbei-,  and  f':'")  for  deckinj,',  avt-raninj;  :(l)Out 
If  Hi. 

(i. — Take  (he  irot\  work?  A. — The  iron  work  is  a  Rood  deal 
cheaper  now  than  it  was  then,  and  when  I  built  tlie  Sadie  it 
was  :i  lot  clieaiM'r  than  wlieii  I  first  started  in  business  here. 

Q.— What  did  von  pay  for  labor  in  IKSC,?  A.— f4  on  the 
work — |."i  up  till  lately,  but  reduced  now. 

i-i. — Sjieakiu;;  ^cenerally,  .Mr.  Turpel.  what  would  you  say 
would  be  the  cost  per  ton  of  btiildiiifr  a  V(»ssel  in  N'ictoria 
in  the  years  around  about  ISSt;  and  1SS7?  .\. — Well  it  cer- 
tainly could  not  be  done  for  less  than  .1il7.~)  to  ^12(M)  a  ton. 

(.1.  Outfitted  for  the  sealinj;  voyajfe?       A. — Ves. 

(.}. — What  would  you  say  would  be  the  cost  of  building  a 
vessel  ready  to  be  Mlted  out  for  a  sealing;  voyafi''?  A. — I 
mean  she  would  be  all  ready  but  takiu}::  her  stores,  I  didn't 
include  the  ri>;}?iii}j:;  have  her  ready  for  about  fl7.^. 

(i. — What  measurement  are  you  s]ieakin;i  of  now?  A. — 
I  don't  know  much  about  measurements,  only  the  reptister 
measurements 

Q. — Do  you  know  abour  the  "t'arolena?"  A. — I  know  a 
little  about  tile  "Carolen."..'' 

(i. — What  would  you  value  her  at  jicnerally?  A. — I  done 
a  little  job  on  her  once  for  Mr.  .Miiusie,  but  I  wouldn't  say 
about'  her  value.  If  slie  was  as  ^^'ood  as  they  say  she  was, 
I  should  think  she  would  be  wortli  about  if-tioOO.' 

ii. — That  is,  if  she  was  the  chaiacter  of  vessel  that  has 
been  described?       A. — Yes;  but  I  don't  know. 

(IJecess  taken  until  2 ::.{(».) 


H 


U  1 


.\l   half  jiast   two  in   the  afleinoon   the  Commissioners  I'e- 
simicd  scats. 

The   examiiialioii    of   (lie   above   witness,   William    Turjiel, 
was  coiitimied. 

(I!\   Mr.  Modwell.) 


and 


(y — Have  you  any   interest    in   tlie  claims  which   are  now 
bein^I  investifiatid   liefore  tiiis  Coiiiiiiission?     .\. — No,  sir. 

Cross cxaniiiiatioii  by  .Mr.  1>ansin(;: 

Q. — Mr.  TiH-pel.  were  you  en;;a};e(l  in  sliipbnihlinn  in  ISSti? 
.\.— I  was  workiiij;-  at    that   business. 

Q. — 1M(]  you  have  charjfe  of  a  yard?     .\. — Y.  s. 
fjp         Q. — IHd   you    build  any    schooners    other   than   those   two 
yon  have  mimed?     .\. — No  sdiliiij;  sclioners. 

ti.— Did  you  build  any  in   |sS(i?     .\.— That   is  what    1   lan 
not  say. 

Q. — Did  villi  bill  nil  any  si'aliiis  i^ihooiieis  in   1SS(!?       A  — 
No,  I  «iid  iKit. 

(.j. —  Ho   you    know   of   am    one   biddinj;   on   anv   vessels   in 
ISSti?     A  -  \„. 

Q-— Wel'e     Ihiii      aM\     vessels    built     herein     N'ictoria     ill 
1S,S«?     A,— Well,   (here   were   no  sralinj;   SI  Siioners,    I    don't 


^dHl  :< 


...^:. 


170 


;'  i 


'-...J. 


'•1 


fliink.  I  (1(1  iHil  know  iilioiU  llic  "Siivwnid'"  when  she  was 
liiiilt.  ImiI  slic  was  llic  liisl  dial  was  Iniill  here.  I  ilo  not 
know  of  anv  hciii^  ImiiII  on  Dial  dale,  alllion^li  llicrc  inij;lit 
I.e. 

(J. —  Do  von  tliink  (licic  wanany  (Icniand  licic  for  schooners 
for  sealing  iniiposes  in  ISSfi?  A. — Tlial  is  what  I  cannot 
sav 

(}. — '^'ou  know  of  no  liids    beiity'   ina(h-   hv   any  one?     A. — I 

made  none  wiialsoever  for  any  seaiinn-  siliooners  in  liiat  day. 

'O       i.i. — Wiial  is  I  lie  dilferen(e  lietween  'Konnlas  tir"  and  "Ore- 

}i(»n  pine,"  is  tlieic  any  diti'erence?     A. — I  (h>  not  know  any 

dilfereiice  wlialever. 

i-i. — Are  lliey  tile  same  pi-ice?  A. — Tliey  may  not  lie.  Itat 
if  lliere  is  any  ditVerence  I  do  not  know.  We  always  call  it 
Houylas  tir  here,  and  some  call  it  Ore;i<iii  pine. 

(J. — Vou  have  wdrked  in  i»()Ufflas  tir  in  constrnctinfi  vessela? 
Have  you  nsi  (1  any  other  woods?  .\. — Xothinsi  but  l)(nif;las 
tir  here. 

(2. — That  is  the  only  wood  yon  have  used?  A. — Ov  island 
-O   ojik  for  stems. 

(2. — The  two  \-essels  yon  Imilt  were  both  bnilt  (tf  l)(Mlfjla» 
lir  entirely?    A. —  l>on!;la.'^  tir. 

(2. — Uhat  is  (he  ditVerence,  if  iiny.  belweiii  builders'  mea- 
snr(  ineiit  and  registered  tonnajic?  .V. — That  is  what  I  can- 
not say.  Of  coarse  imilders"  tin  asnreineiit  is  the  largest  iind 
it  wimld  >;ive  yon  the  most  loiuianc 

(2. —  How  much  more?  .\. —  It  would  lie  the  oiitsidc  of  the 
shiji  and  the  rejjistered  would  be  the  inside. 

(}. — Ilow  much  iiKM'e?    A. — Thiit  1  am  not  prejiared  tft  (ell 

30     you. 

{}. —  How  many  cubic  feet  in  a  builder's  (on?  .\. — 1  did 
not  ti<^ure  that  out. 

ii. — How  many  cubic  feet  iii  a  rej;islered  ton?  A. — 1  do 
not   know;  I  cannot  answer  that  straifihl. 

ii.—  l  lielieve  you  stated  that  in  the  winters  of  lSS!t  and 
1S!(0  yon  bnilt  a  vessel  at  tlie  conlract  )irice  of  !?(!,.")( (0,  and 
that  you  lost  :ifr>llO  u]ion  it.  so  that  that  vessel  would  cost 
about'  7.(1(1(1?    A.— Ves.  I  think  1  lost  more  than  !jf.-»(l()  tiiion  i(. 

(2.— ^.'(Kl  is  what  vou  stated?  .\.— Ves.  sir;  tliat  is  about 
40    ii. 

t2.--:|i!.")(»(l  is  what  you  have  stated?  A.— Ves.  sir,  thai  is 
about  it. 

(J.— What  was  the  !onaa«c  of  that  vessel?  A.— If  I  do 
not  mistake  it  icjiislered  Tt~  tons. 

ii. — ^'ou  built  her  (Hi  a  (alciilation  of  rejjistered  toiiuafic 
did   you?       .\. —  Ves. 

(2. — Is  that  .iistomary  in  bHildinn  vessel.s?  A. —  Ves.  so 
tar  as  I  know. 

(). — \'(m  buili  the  "Sadii  Turpel"  the  followiuu  vear?  A. 
50    -Ve.s. 

(2.— What  was  her  cost?  .\.—*l(i,  1(1(1,  1  Ihiidc.  Thai 
was  her  contrai  I   price.  1  lielieve. 

(2. — What   was  her  (oiina^c?       .\.— ."(i  tons. 

Q. —  It   seems  dial   in   issll  -a   vessel   with  :i  ton   less  Inirdeii 

cost  !!<:!,."'>( Id  niiuc  than  a  vessel  of  die  si/.e  of  di(  "Mav 
Uelle."       Is  dial  so'.'       .\.— Thai    is  so. 

(2. —  Hid  yiMi  ever  <lo  anv  work  on  the  ''t'aroleiia"?       .\. — 
I  did  a  small  job  on  die  "Carcdeiia." 
60       (2. — W.is  she  liaiileil  up?       A. — No,   I   (lid  not   iiaiil   her  iiji. 
The  work  was  done  on  ili  ■  (h^ck  on  the  water. 

12. — When   was   thai?       .\.    -I   do  not    remember  the  dale. 

but  I  lielievf  i;  wns  the  l;ist  time  she  was  in  tin  liarlxu'.  be 
fore  she  \M'iit    lip  north   dial    liim-  sli>    wa»  sej/cd. 

(}.  —  Hid  you  no  o\(!'  h.i-  then?  A. —  I  do  not  rememlier 
1  was  hired  to  do  i-nnie  work,  .iiid  some  liilh-  jolis,  and  ! 
done  it  and  left   her. 


>7i 


lo 


30 


40 


60 


(i. — l>i«I  you  s<  f  li.T  outdttt'd  and  ivady  (o  start?  A. — 
No,  sir. 

(2- — Wliiil  work  (li<l  you  do  on  Ikt?  A. — I  (liiulv  il  was 
on  licr  linlwaiks  and  on  licr  rail.       It  was  a  very  trillinji  job. 

(I. — From  your  iicr.sonal  knowlcdfit'  of  flic  "('ai'olcna."  are 
\<t\\  coiniiclcnt  in  vour  own  mind  to  jilaco  a  value  tii)on  lu'i? 
A.— No. 

(2.— Now,  in  iNitli,  I'  l)cli<'V('  (hat  you  made  a  bid  upon  a 
.'(."t-lon  v<>sM<-l,  and  you  nuidc  tliat  l>i<1  in  writinj;  lo  oni>  K.  A. 
Holnian?       l>o  you' n'tall  tliat  fact?       A.— No. 

Q. — Vou  do  not  recall  it?       A. — I   have  no  knowledfje  of 

it.  If  I  could  see  my  bid  I  would  say  i;  did,  but  without 
tluit  I   would. say  thai    II  did  not. 

t^. —  I  will  read  I  his  to  you.  which  is  to  be  found  in  V(d. 
\'H.  of  the  Conjii'essional  edilion  ivlatiufr  lo  the  fur  seal  ar- 
bitration, jiap'  '•2.  and  Kxhibit  F  before  the  Taris  Tribnnal. 

All',    r.odwell: — What   statement    are  you    icadinfj;? 

5Ii'.  I.ansiuf;: -Jfr.  Turpel's. 

Afr.  l'o<lweII: — His  own  statement? 

Afr.  Lansiii<r: — His  own  statement. 

.Mr.  Lansing:: — I  am  readiiin  from  this  copy,  but  I  will  pro 

(luce  tiu'  (U-i<;inai.       II  says: 

"Hid  tor  buildiuf;  .'{oton  Schooner. 

'•("enlral  Ship  Yard.   Victoria,   K.  ('.,  Nov.  1(J,  18!>2. 

"I  do  iifii'ee  to  build  a  UH-ton  sealint;  schooner,  and  furnish 
model  and  all  nialerials.  She  will  be  a  fast  saih'r.  Will 
be  ne.xt  to  "Halcyon."  I  will  furnish  tirst-class  stock,  and 
do  the  work  to  du'  satisfaction  of  who  may  superintend  the 
buihlin^.  All  will  be  done  in  accordance  with  the  speciti- 
calions  now  on  view  for  the  sum  of  Five  Thousand  Dollars. 
This  includes  Main};,  aiul  stern-post  for  steam  if  required. 

"WM.LIAAr  TUKPEL." 

(i. —  IN)  you  remember  (he  cii-cums(ance  of  writiny;  thai? 
.\. — 1  do  not  remembei-  (hat.  but  I  do  no(  say  (hat  it  is  not 
so.  I  would  like  to  see  my  writinj;  on  it.  Hut  still  it  is  not 
a  bad  bid.     .\  :!;">  ton  scluMiner  at  f.'MMM)  is  m>(  bad. 

Q.— Would  you  have  mad(>  a  bid  of  (hat  kind?  A.— That 
would  not  be  too  bad  in  \SU'2. 

il. — Thai   would  be  abou(   (he  price?       A, — She  was  snnill. 

(i.--She  was  :!.">((Uis.  A. —  I  do  not  I'euicnilier  dial  (ransac- 
(iou,  al(liou);li  !  do  not  say  il  was  not  so.  If  I  see  il  in  my 
owi  writ  illy-  I  wil  say  I  did  so.  Mat  if  I  do  not  I  will  say 
(hat   I  did  not.       I  ilo  iio(  remember. 

il. — Now,  .Mr.  Turpel,  in  rejiard  to  (he  models  used  for  seal- 
ing; vessels  loday,  do  you  now  follow  (he  lines  of  (he  '"('aro- 
leiia"  ii.id  vessels  of  liial  slaiiip  in  buildiiii;.  .\. — I  iii'vtr 
saw  Hie  "Caroleiia's"  lines  in  buildinp'. 

(i. — A'ou  never  saw  la  r  oul  of  (lie  wa(er?      .\ — No. 

t^. — Was  she  (lu>  usual  iiunh  I  of  vessels  biiill  when  yon 
Were  nijiiincd  in  biiildiiu!-  scMlin};  vessels.  .\. —Soinelliiu;.'' 
similar  no  doiibl. 

Q. — Did  yoi.  i;<»  down  iiilo  (lie  ('ar(deiia"s  hold?  .\. — No. 
I  nevei-  was  in    t. 

Q.—  Now.  will,  reiiard  lo  il ul(i(  of  (he  Sadie  Turpel,  how 

iiiurli  did  you  slj.'e  (lia(  i(  cos(  (o  provision  her  fur  eij;li( 
iiiontlis  criiis<'? 

Mr.  Modwell:     lb-  'las  iiol  .■ipokeii  of  pi'ovisioniufj;  at  all. 


mm 


.,'l,l' 


W-^' 


^■Hi.i'-iM 


l^i 


Mr.  I  aiisiim:— He  lix  d  i(  :il  '.,0(1(1 ,111(1  i(  niiisi  iiK  lade  lliat 
(To  wiliiess:!  W'lial  was  iIk  oiUtit  of  llie  Sadie  Tiiiper.' 
.\. — li  \\:isaboiii  *'J.7S(l  wilhoiii  provisions. 


jj,..^ 


u 


"1  ' 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


172 

Q.— If  v(»n  have  the  items  llicrc  will  ,v«tii  (ell  ns  liow  that 
was  made  out.  A. — It  was  for  aumiiiiiitioii,  <tniis.  tin  ware, 
(lrMj;;s.  charts,  fiiriiisliiiifis,  holts,  clock,  chronoiiictcr.  chroiio- 
iiM'Ici-  hox.  coal.  salt.  !|i.')lt»  for  advaiicf  wattes,  Iowa},'*'  t<> 
Hacc  Rocks  .and  insuianco. 

Q. — That  was  an  t'litirciv  new  ontflt  for  the  vessel?  A. — 
Tliat  was  her  oiittit  excejit  the  provisions. 

Q. — You  put  in  evervthin}i  there  except  the  provisions? 
A.— Yes. 

Q. — ^Vhy  did  von  leave  out  the  provisions?  A.— These 
other  things  were  jtaid  for,  and  the  provisions  came  from 
IJithet  and  Company,  and  I  did  not  fict  the  hill  at  the  time. 

Q, — Kvervthinu:  in  tliat  out  lit  was  new  and  complete?  A. — 
— Everythinfr  was  new. 

<}. — ilow  many  boats  had  you  on  board?  A. — Six  sealinjr 
boats  and  stern  boat;  seven  boats  in  all. 

Mr.  Hodwell: — Have  yon  got  the  oritrinal  doctiment  in  r<'- 
ference  to  that  tender  which  yon  asked  the  witness  about. 

Mr.  Lansinfj: — No. 

Mr.  IJodwell: — 1  would  like  to  have  the  orijfinal  document 
because  I  want  to  examine  him  on  it. 

Mr.  Lansinjj: — We  will  ]»rodnce  it. 

Mr.  Hodwell: — When  that  is  i)roduced  1  will  close  the  rest 
of  the  witness"  re-ex;imini',tion. 

He-examination  by  Mr.  Hodwell. 

From  that  statement  which  you  hav<'  in  your  hands,  give 
ns  all  the  classitication  of  items  under  the  head  of  onlfil, 
with  the  amounts  of  each.  I  do  not  want  the  mimes,  but 
jnst  the  items  and  the  amounts. 

Cannon  and  carriaj,'e !|  fir).t)tt 

Amnmnition 4!>l.!)i) 

(5uns :?<>IU)(> 

Tinware 1:5.75 

Drujrs l'M)l» 

Charts I'l.OO 

Furiiishin<i;s (iS.Od 

Kepairiufi'  chronometer lO.ltl) 

Customs  dues, 1.").<M) 

Six  boats (;:!(i.()0 

Stern  boat ^<").Oft 

Clock l.oo 

Chronometer  box 4.t)0 

Chronometer IIO.III) 

Cash  i)aid  for  coal  vard 7-.0II 

Salt ^".tH* 

Men's  advance  waji'es .^Kl.tMt 

Hallast •").()(> 

Towajfe  to  Uace  Uocks 1.").IM) 

California   Insurance  Co 7tl.lK» 

Sun  Life li'MHt 

Total  li,7S(».-(> 

Q._That  is  the  cost  of  the  outfits?       A.— Yes. 

Q. — You  wei-e  asked  about  Ihi'  comi>arisoii  between  the 
":\Iay  H<'lle"  and  the  "Sadie  Tuip,|."  What  was  the  dilTer- 
ence  i'l  the  work  you  did  on  the  "May  Helle"  and  on  the  ''Sadie 
Turpel?"  A.— I  would  like  to  explain  just  one  momeni 
whei'e  till'  dillerence  in  the  cost  came  in.  Tlie  "May  Helle" 
was  a  Hat  bottom  boat,  very  easily  built,  and  measured  a  lot 
for  lier  si7,<'.  Hut  the  'Sadie  Turpi'l"  was  lon)i  and  narrow, 
and  sliarp  and  she  is  a  lar^e  boat,  and  rejiislered  very  litle 
toni.ane  c()m|iaratively. 


i;3 


20 


30 


40 


6(9 


t^.— VtMir  (oiilriut  for  tlu-  "Mii,v  IJcllc"  di*'  not  iiicliidi- 
jin.vtliliij,'  but  llu'  liiill  iiiul  stiindiiin  fijfuiiifi?      A. — Y«'S. 

(i. — And  in  the  Sadif  Tiiiim-I  ,vou  put  in  oviTytiiing,  filtinn 
licr  lor  HCii?       A. — Yes. 

ii. — I  (liinlv  von  Haid  von  worked  in  Nova  Sccttia  iind  in 
California  at   .vonr  tiadf?       A. — Ych. 

i-i. — And  von  liavc  also  said  tlial  von  repaired  nearlv  all 
llic  sclidoners  that  came  aronnd  from  Xova  Scotia?  A. — Yes. 

(^>. — Now.  when  von  were  making;:  your  comparison  be- 
tween l)ou};las  lir  and  other  woods,  on  what  experienc<'  and 
infoimalion  were  you  basiuf;  it?  A. — Well,  the  experience 
1  have  had  in  Dou^'las  lir  is  that  I  have  handled  Hom(>  ver,v 
old  vessels  here,  and  the  majority  of  them  were  very  sonnd 
when  (dd.  Take  the  easlern  vessels  with  hard  wood.  1  have 
not  seen  one  bil  what  was  a  little  defective  around  the 
counters. 

(i. — Yon  say  you  have  rejjaired  some  vessels  built  of 
Douulas  fir  that  were  jtretly  old.  Can  yon  mention  any 
one  of  I  hi  in?  .\. — lust  lately  I  had  been  rei»airinf{  in  the 
steamer  "Htta  While."  and  they  claimed  her  to  be  thirty 
vcars  old. 

t^.— What  was  she  built  of?  A.— Of  what  I  would  call 
l)ou}ilas  fir. 

Q. — What  was  her  londition?  A. — I  stilpped  her  deck, 
ami  Iter  beams  were  as  sound  as  the  day  they  went  in,  and 
(  very'hinf;  was  sound  and  in  jiood  condition  except  a.  little 
bit  ai'ouml  her  counter. 

Q. — Did  yon  work  on  hard  wood  in  these  other  jdaces? 

The  Commissioner  on  the  jiart  of  the  Tnited  States: — Do 
you  not  think,  Mr.  Hodwell,  you  are  going  back  on  your  di- 
icct  examination? 

Mr.  I'.odwell: — I'erhaps  so,  your  Honour. 

]{(' crosscxamination  by  Mr.  Lansing. 

(.i. — You  stated  that  the  item  for  guns  was  lji.'?(!0,  is  that 
( orrect  ?       A.--Yes. 

(i. — How  many  guns  did  yon  h.ive  on  board?  A. — AVe 
lia(i  twelve  guns. 

il. — Shot   gnns?       A. — Yes. 

(2. — ,\nd  how  many  boats  had  yon  on  board?  A. — Six 
sealing  boats  and  one  stei'n  Imat. 

Q.— And  you  paid  .?(■>:{<•  for  these?       A.— Yes. 

(i. — Did  they  have  the  sails  and  oars?       A. — No. 

(i.^Did  you  sui)ply  the  sails?       A. — I  sujiplied   the  sails. 

{]. — Where  d<tes  tliat  item  appear?  A. — That  came  in 
with  the  other  outfit  from  Jlarvin  &  Co.  There  was  so 
nincli  canvass,  and  tlie  sailors  made  their  own  sails. 

(-i. — .\nd  what  about  the  oais?  .\. — The  oars  came  out- 
side of  the  boats  altogether. 

t^. — Who  dill  you  buy  them  from?  A. — It  must  have  cost 
a  little  more  if  they  are  not  included  in  that;  but  they  must 
come  in  Marvin  &  Co.'s  bill. 

(i. — Tliey  don't   appear  m  that  statenuMit?       A. — No. 

(i. — You  ai'e  sui'e?       A. — I.  am  sure 

(i. — How  many  tons  of  salt  did  you  have?  A. — I  inily  had 
two  tons  in  that  lot,  which  cosr  127.  We  had  eight  tons 
from  Hithet. 

ti-— Yon  i)aid  ^21  for  two  Ions?  A.-*Yes;  it  was  sold  at 
.?i:i..")0  a  ton  at  that  time. 

ti.— In   1S!»1?       A.— Yes. 

This  closed  the  examination  of  the  witness. 


..■M' 


m 


M' 


lit 


m 


mm 


"74 


WiiKcr  NViilkcr.  of  llic  ri(v  of  Xiclniiii.  ii  wilnrss  iinuIiHril 
oil  lifhiilf  of  llcf  M;i.jt'sl,v.  I'lciiiji  diilv  sworn.  dcposiMl  ns  I'ol- 
lt)>vs: 


A. —  I  iiiii  ii  Hliip 


lo         till- 


lO 


Kxiiiiiiiii'd  h.\  Sir  riiarli's  llibhi'il  TiipiH'r. 

t^. — Mr.  WiilkiT,  wluit  is  voiir  liiiMiiicss? 
liiiiiilri'. 

il — NViicro    iliil  von    servo    voiii'     ii|>|>iiiill(oslii|i 
triido?      A. — In  a  sliiii.viiid  in  Scolliiiid. 

Q__\Vlioif  Wiis  tliiitV      A.— In  r.artoii.  on  tiic  Clyde;  l>eii 
ids'  was  the  name  of  llie  siiipyaid. 

12.— For  liow  many  years   were  yon  an  apiireiitiee  (liei-e? 
A. — For  live  years. 

Q.— After  tlial  where  did  yon  woik?      A.— 1  eaiiie  out  lo 


Canada  in  1S71 ;  after  I 


lie  (o  Canada  1  staved  in  Toronto 


one  Slimmer  and  llieii   I  came  up  lai  (lie  Wawsoii  route. 

Q. — Wlial  did  yon  do  on  (lie  l>awson  route.  A. — W< 
liiiilt  two  sleaniers  at  a  jdace  called  I'ort  Francis; 
one  above  tile  Tails  and  one  below  tlie  falls. 


20 


Q. — .\fter   lliat    wlicre   did   yon    work' 


A.— In    till-    Hed 


30 


Kiver  country,  down  on  I,ake  Wiiinipetr.  I  was  working  on 
ii  screw  itrojieller  for  tlie  llad.soii   May  <"ompany. 

(i.— I'robably  the  lirst  projieller  built  on  that  water'/  A. — 
Ves;  and  I  worked  on  the  first  sidi'-wlieel  steamer  ever  built 
on  that  river,  for  flie  ."SIcArtlmr  Urotliers 

(i.— Where  (ill  yon  work  after  that'.'  A.— I  came  to  Oak- 
land. Cal.,  and  worked  there  for  one  summer. 

{}. — What  were  yon  doiiij;  there'?  A. — Itiiildiiifi  a  steam- 
er, and  I  also  worked  on  the  docks  in  California  for  a 
while. 

(2. — Where  were  till  se  docks'.'  .\. — There  was  mie  called 
the  North   I'oint,  and  the  other  lliinlers;     one 


It  th 
north  end  of  San  Francisco,  and  the  other  was  down  at  the 
south   end. 

Q._What  sort  of  voik   were  yon  doiiij;  there"?       A. — Ke- 
jiairiii};  ships. 

Q. — .\nd   from   there  yon   came     to 
riirlit  to  A'ictoria, 


Vict 


oria . 


.\.— Yea, 


Q.— About  what   time  did  yon  come  to  Victoria?       A. — T 
40   came  in  .Taniiar\.  IST.'. 

Q.—li^i-oiii  tliar  time  aloiifr.  what  has  been  your  business'.' 
A. — I   was   enjraiied   until   about    ISSl    in   slii|)  buildiii<r. 
{}. — I'll  to  ISS."!  you  were  eimay;ed  in  sliiji  biiildiii;j;  and  re 


airinjl  vessi 


■Is  h^ 


-Yes.  sir. 


0. — Do  von  know  the  Star  shiiivard'.'       A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q._Wli:it  had  yon  to  do  with  tliaC.'       A.— Well,  I   was  a 

]iaitner  with  a  man  by  the  name  of  Colvin;  we  were  the 
first  to  i»iit  ways  tlwi'e. 

i.i. — You  were  the  (irojirietors  of  the  Star  shiityard'?  A. 
— It  was  called  Trahey's  shipyai'd. 

Q. — Tn  lS,*t.'{  had  you  any  repairing  to  do  on  aiiv  jtarticiilai 


I'l^ 


A. — Oh.  ves.   T  iiad  chaiw     of     the     rjovernment 


steamer  "Sir  .lames  Doiiuhis.' 


hauled  her  ii|)  and  put  2l> 


feet  about  the  middle  of  her  and  made  Ik  r  lai'tfei 

Q. — !n  what  caiiacily  did  yon  act  in  conni'ction  with  that 


work 


-I  was  foreman. 


60 


Q — What  sort  of  work  did  yon  rarry  on  in  Trahey's  ship- 
yard' A. — Repairinu  small  steamers  and  schooners  when 
tliey  ciinie  back  from  wherever  they  had  been.  There  were 
not  verv  lujiiiy  schooners  in  the  port  at  thai   time. 

O. — You  wer,'  biiildiiiy;  small  slejimers  and  rejiairiii!"-  ves- 
sels from  lime  lo  time'?  A. — Yes.  I  miirht  also  state  that 
I  wiM'ked  ii]i  on  the  Skeeiia  river  in  ISTfi;  we  built  a  iuii  boat 
for  Mc.Mlisfer  liros..  and  she  wiis  oiiite  a  lame  shi]).  .and 
jilied  here  as  a   liiji  for  eijfht  or  ten    vears. 

O. — In  \'our  sliipyard.  lia\c  \(mi  had  occasion  (o  overhaul 
and   re]iair  seal'iijr  Si-hooners?       A. — Yes,  some  limes. 


H. — run  villi 


>i\c  llli'  iiilliii'S  of  iill\    (if  llir  still  ullcl'.s 


I  hilt 


vim  liiivi-  wiirlu'il  mi? 

.Mr.  IMrkiiison— Is  this  |tiliir  (it  IssJ? 

Hir.  riiiiM.  II.  TiipiM'i:— That   wii.s  in   iMs:!.  Il<'  <an  fxi.'liiiii 
aliMiit  it  lati'i- 1)11. 

(To  wiUii'ss)    l^. — .\hiiiit  what  llnii' illil  voii  liavc  Hnnn'tliinn 


I)  ill)  Willi  si'aliiiy:  srhnipniis'. 


.\.— Not  rariii  r  than  issi*. 


(2. — (":iii  you  iiaiiir  Moiiir  of  Ilii'Mo  soaliiin  Hchoiii'is?       A.— 
lo  TlitTi-  was  ilif  "Faviiiitc."  llir  "Onsvaiil."  ami  Ihr  "Caiolona" 


was  oni' 


Mill  I  am  not  siiio  Imt  llii'  lli-iiiii-tta  >\as  aiiotlior. 


(^_Thi'   ••Caroli'iia"   is    thr    vt  sst  I    wr   iinvi-   Imtii    talkiii!,' 


ihoiit  in  tliis  niatlrr. 


A.- V 


(i.— In  1SS4  wi'if  VOII  Artiii}:  Miasiifiii},'  Siirvcvoi-  for  thin 


poll 


A.— Yrs 


t^.— In  what  month?       A.— In  tlii'  month  of  April. 

g. — WiTf  yon  afti'iwaiils  appointcil  ollirially  for  tliat    po 
sit  ion?       .\. — Yt's. 

(^— In  what  month?      A.— In  .May.  1SS4. 

(J. — As  artiiiK  mi'asiii'ini.'  sinvcyor  for  Ilii-  jiort  of  X'ictoi'ia 
hail  yon  anytliiiitr  to  ilo  with  Ihf  ("aroli'iia?  A. — \'i's;  shi' 
hail  soinr  alti'i;i(ions  inaili'  to  licr.  ami  I  was  lallfil  in  to 
|iiit  im-asiirrmrMts  on  hor? 


Q.— I'.y  whom 


\. — 15\    till'  ("uslon»<  aiithoiitii's  at   this 


|)OII 


Q. — Villi  wt'i-f  rath  il  ill     for  that     |iiii']iosr 


A. — To  incas- 


iiri'  till'  altt'iations  wliirii  had  brcn  put  on  in  i'onHi>i|ncnri-  of 
tiii'si'  ii'pairs. 

30       Sir  <'    II.  Tiipju'r: — I  may  slatr  for  Ihi'  infoiniatiou  of  tho 
ronimissioiifis,  anil  partiriilai  ly  in  ii'^aril  to  the  siinjjcslion 


niailc  l»v  till'  CiimmlssiomT  for  the   I'liitrd   Stales  lliat   t1 


U' 


iiioasiiriiiir  rortifirati'  ami  the  formula  of  papi-rs  ri-i|iiiriMl 
in  this  I'onm-rtion  will  lio  iiri'si'iitnl  later  on.  We  expeeled 
to  have  tlieni  iliiriiifj;  the  e.\aiiiiiiatioii  of  the  surveyor,  hut  we 
liave  been  disapiioiiited.  To  the  witness.)  Q. — Now,  in  the  dis- 
i-liarf,fe  of  vonr  diitv  did  von  examine  the  Carolena  ])arlii-iilar- 
ly?      .\.— Yes.        '  '   ■ 

^o  <i-  Hefore  lominn  to  the  east  of  tin-  rarolena  siiecially.  Mr. 
\\'alker,  I  wisli  to  asl;  yon  a  eoiiple  of  fjeneral  ipiestions. 
Would  yon  fell  us  from  your  experieiiee  in  \'irtoria  in  re- 
fiard    to   the   piii-e    for   the   ronslriii'tion    of   vessels,    with    re- 


erenee   to   tile   materials,   lali- 


etc. 


};ive   lis 


til 


e  eiiiniiara- 


live  lost   lietweeii   the  first   yi'ars  yon   rame  liere  and     down 
from  the  years  ISSTi  ;ind  ISSti,  to  llie  present  time.    A. — Well. 
s  were  very  hifili.  The  plai-er  mines  were 


in  til 


ese  vears  watri 


linjr,  and  $~t  per  day  was  iiiiisiilered   to  he  the   \\a!.!;es  of  a 


sliip  i-arpeiitei 


Diirinji   my   tirst     job   I    worked     for     five 


50   months  at  15  per  day. 

(}. — \Vhat   are  wajres  now   here?       A. — 14  a   day. 

Q.— What  was  the  eost  of  lumber  then?  A.— 114  per 
lliousand. 

Q. — What  is  tile  prire  for  tlie  same  rlass  of  lumber  now? 
A.— fS  per  (himsand. 

(i. — Have  yon  anylliinji  to  say  as  to  (lie  fastenings,  etc? 


.\t    that    time   we   u'ot    it    altoyetiier   from      tli 


I'nited 


States  as  we  wen 


(00  fi 


irawav  from   rnmida.     Of  course 


we 


(.J 


were  subject  to  a  larn'c  ilnty  in  briiifiiusi  jfoods  from  (lie 
States.  There  was  another  (liiiiij,  and  I  do  not  know 
wiiether  it  was  a  fault  on  the  jiait  of  the  ship  builders  or  nor 
but  they  did  not  think  anythin};  jrood  could  come  friiiu  Can- 
ada in  the  line  of  shipbiiildini"  at  that  time,  and  we  not 
it  all  from  San  Francisco.  It  came  orijiinally  from  Xew 
^'orli,  of  course. 

<i. — The  iieople  in   tlie  ship  bnildin}*'  bnsiness  at    taat    time 
iiot  soiiH-  of  their  material  from  tlie  I'liitcd  Sates  in.s(ead  of 


i:/,l 

p 

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60 


17C 

iiiUKU'tinn  it  from  llu-  t'ii8l»'iii   I'loviuri'H  «>f  ('iiiiada?    A.— 
Yt«. 

y. — 1»  that   ilu'  I'ustoin  now?    — A. — No. 
Q.— Had  thf  (liHtamt'  in  tlioHo  <la.v8  anytliiiij,'  to  do  willi 
the  pri'fi'i-i'Ufi'?      A. — 1   Ihinlv  so.       Wo  fould  not  ^H't  tlic 
material  in  tinu",    and  wlieu  a  man  wanted  a  boat  lie  nmde 
up  IiiM  mind  to  Imve  it  piett.v  soon. 

(^._So  tliat  you  imported  tliese  materials  from  the  rniti-d 
States  and  paid  th.'  duty  instead  of  wailiu};  for  them  to 
lome  from  the  east?      A. — N  es. 

Q. — Were  Canadian  materials  required  for  the  eonstruc- 
tion  of  vessels  ijept  in  storlv  here  in  tliese  earlier  days?  A. 
— No>  not  in  any  lar^e  tiuantities. 

i.1. — S]K>al{in^  jj;t'"i''">ll.v-  <J«>  .V""  recolleet  what  the  rate  of 
duty  was  on  tln'se  materials?  A. — It  ranged  from  17  1-2 
jM'r  eent.  to  23  per  rent.. 

l^. — Can  you  tell  ub  about  what  percentafje  of  the  eou- 
striiction  of  a  ship  was  made  up  «»f  these  artic-les  upon  wh\-h 
you  paid  duty?      A. — We  eonsidere«l  ab«Mit  ;{(•  per  e«'nt. 

(). — You  are  speaking  now  in  the  riiuyh?  A. — Yes,  I  speak 
in  reference  to  the  ship  t-handlery  work  eonneeted  with  the 
vessel. 

y. — And  from  these  facts  yoti  have  mentioned,  ship  build- 
int;  was  comparatively  costly  at  that  time,  I  take  it?  A. — It 
was. 

y. — Did  yon  f.':ive  me  the  amount  of  shi]>wriKhts'  wa^es  in 
thCe  days?  A. — It  was  #5  a  day  for  J)  hours  and  not  10 
hours. 

Q. — You  told  us  you  hav»'  had  experience  in  Ban  Francis- 
«•<>.  ('ould  a  ve8s«'l  (here  be  const ructe<l  in  San  Francisco 
t'lu'aper  than  in  Victoria?  A. — Y»'s,  very  much  cheajK'r, 
and  one  r(>ason  was,  they  did  so  much  work  there. 

Q. — You  mean  there  w«'re  »uore  shi[>s  to  Ik'  built,  and  a 
greater  denmnd  for  them?  A. — Yes;  you  s<'e  you  had  to 
make  so  much  prcparatitm  to  build  a  snmll  vessel  here,  that 
von  would  incur  a  larfje  expense  bef()re  vou  went  to  work  at 
all. 

(i. — Give  an  illustration  of  that.  What  was  the  first  tiling 
you  had  to  do?      A. — We  had  to  jirepare  a  model. 

Q. — Was  that  comparatively  costly?  A. — The  model  of 
h  schooner  would  not  cost  so  mu<-h,  but  you  lost  so  much 
time  «»ver  it.  Probably  tlu'  party  wanting  the  ship  would 
want  to  see  the  model,  and  you  would  have  to  wait.  As 
soon  as  your  model  was  made,  you  would  have  to  };et  some 
plac«>  to  draft  it  out  in  di>tail  at  full  size,  and  nnike  all  your 
iutnilds.  Not  havintr  much  work  her(>.  you  had  to  do  that 
for  everythiiiK  you  built.  When  you  did  all  that.  |>robably 
b«>fore  anythin*;  (>lse  came  alonv:  there  w<nild  be  a  difTerent 
class  of  vessels,  and  new  moulds  would  be  entirely  needed. 
Of  course  all  these  tliiiifts  were  a  bifj  ItiMu  in  a  small  jilace 
like  this. 

<V.  -Does  not  that  fact  sujiK<'»<t  itnelf  as  making  tlw  t'ost 
of  ship  building;  very  expensive  here  as  compared  with  other 
places  at  that  time?      .\. — ^'es,  of  course. 

Q.— I  Miitprise  the  supply  of  working;  men  was  110'  con- 
slant?      A. — yo.  we  could  n(»t  ijet  them. 

Q. — Row  would  the  supply  of  working  men  in  Victo- 
ria ccmipare  with  San  Francisco?  A. — Well,  in  jdaces  like 
over  im  the  Sound  and  in  California  (hey  keep  dilTerent  kinds 
of  men  for  different  kinds  liT  work.  They  are  imt  r«'ally  what 
you  would  call  shipbuilders,  and  tlu>y  do  not  );et  probably 
half  the  wap's  of  a  ship  car|M>ntcr.  Some  of  them  do  bor- 
ing, and  s<»nie  of  (hem  drive  trennels,  and  over  there  an  ed- 
ucnted  laborer  does  a  ffonil  part  of  the  shipbuildiuK  work. 

Q. — Could  you  tell  what  (he  model  of  a  ship  like  the 
"Caroleiiii"  wttul'l  cost?      A. — I  do  not  know  that  It  would 


1/7 

(■(ml  a  nvi-M  (Ictil  foi-  licr.       I'robiiltiv  in  iii:ikin{;  moulds  it 
would  (Mmt  |)n»l»al»l,v  .'#ir>((.. 

(j. — ('(Mild  voii  ^ivc  (lie  <'(iiiiiiiiHsi(i!iciK  tin  idcti  aH  to  what 
vou  would  luivo  to  do  in  IMSt;  with  rcpird  to  labour,  if  .vou 
(IcNircd  to  ((inHtruct  a  scaliiiu  Hihotuu  r?  Wuh  It  |ioHHiblc  to 
<i('l  that  labour  in  N'ictoria.  or  would  vou  have  to  make  any 
special  arranfjcincnt  f(»r  tiiat  purpose?  A. — tHi.  yes,  it  was 
not  easy  to  net  carivnleis  here,  '.lecause  there  were  not 
many  herte.  There  was  s<»  little  work  to  be  done  that  the 
10   men  would  not  eome  here. 

(j. — There  was  no  constiint  or  steady  (  niploynient  in  tliat 
line.  .\. — No.  not  at  all.  That  is  just  where  the  trouble 
(iime  in.  They  would  cross  the  Sound  as  so(ni  as  one 
jolt  was  d(me.  and  then  you  could  not  tret  them  to  c(Mne  back 
when  you  wanted  them. 

(i.— In  the  dischar;,'e  of  your  duty  as  measuring;  surveyor  in 
connection  with  the  "Candena."  had  you  to  make  the  mea- 
surements of  that  vessel?  A. — I  took  all  of  her  dimensions 
just  as  we  f(tund  the  vessel. 


20 


The  4'ommisHioner  (Ui  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States:- 
waH  his  purpose  in  e.xaminint;  the  vessel? 


-What 


Sir  ('has.  II.  Tapper. 
f(M'  the  I'ort. 


lie  was  acting;  measuring;  surveyor 


Th(>  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  Knited  States: — The 
examinati(Mi  was  not  for  the  |iurp(»se  of  clasHiu};  her? 

Sir  i\  II.  Tupper: — Not  at  all.  After  the  alterations  he  cal 
culated  the  tonnage  (To  the  witness.)    t^. — Vou  had  to  lake 
3^  the  necess;'<'v  measiiresmenls  in  (U'der  to  calculate  the  ton 
naj?e  at  wh    li  she  slKMihJ  Ik-  rejristered;  is  not  that  so?      A. — 
Yes. 

(j. — Tlieref(U-e  you  had  to  no  over  that  ship  lh(M-oU{i;hly.  A. 
— <Mi,  yes;  and  havin;;  a  personal  knowledp*  of  that  kind  of 
work.  I  can  iilwavs  tell  what  a  vessel  is  like  when  I  measure 
her. 

(i. — Thel'andena  had  then  Icen  repaired  jind  i-eady  f(U'  the 
purpose  when  seen  by  you?  A. — She  had  been  repaired  and 
40  some  alterations  made,  I  think  she  was  made  larp>r.  I  am 
pretty  sure  there  was  somelliinn  in  that   line. 

ii. — ^She  was  a  complete  ship  when  you  befran  to  measure 
her?  A. — Yes.  hhe  was  litted  up  very  nicely  at  that 
time. 

il. — Was  she  ready  for  sea?  .\. —  I  think  she  was  in  the 
hands  of  the  pilots  iiere.  and  she  was  extra  well  titled  up  at 
that  lime. 

ii. — What  style  of  cabin  had  she?       A. — They   were  very 

nice,  because  tjie  pilots  lived  on  lioard  of  her  a  f;ood  deal.  I 

SO  remember  taking;  notice  that  she  was  very  nicely  litted  up. 

I  suppose  at  that  time  thev  could  alford  to  spend  monev  on 

her. 

H. — She  was  titled  up  sjM'cially  on  account  of  the  jdlots 
usinn  her  as  a  jiilot  b(»al?  A. — Yes. 

ii. — You  sjiy  you  look  |)arlicular  notice  of  her  finish?  A. — 
^'es,  at  that  lime.  II  was  just  after  she  was  fixed  u|>  thai 
I  measur(>d  her. 

(i. — What  W(ml(l  you  say  iis  to  the  lines  of  the  vessel?  A. 
— I  could  not  say  much  about  the  lines,  but  the  measure- 
^o  iiients  would  show  what  rise  of  Ibior  she  had.  I  think  that 
would  be  niven  in  detail. 

ti. — tiive  us  a  p-neral  descriptiiui  of  what  kind  of  a  looking 
ship  she  was.  A. — She  looked  very  well  above  the  water,  but  I 
do  not  know  that  I  took  any  particular  notic(>  of  her  \yhen 
she  was  hauled  up.  She  had  a  very  (rood  deck,  and,  as  I 
understood,  she  was  well  lilted  up  in  the  cabin,  and  there  was 
t^iHid  work  done  (ui  her  at  the  time  she  was  rejiaired. 

12 


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Q. — From  your  knowlfilp*  of  th«'  "Caroh-nii"  aiud  yonv 
kii«)wl«'d}i;«'  mid  (>x]K'ri«'iii-('  of  HliipH  ;iii<1  tlu'  coiiHtriK-tioii  of 
thfin,  wiiiit  woul<I  be  a  fail*  valiit'  for  that  vchwI  wIhmi  you 
saw  licr?      A. — I  hIiouUI  Ha.v  !i^4,(K(0. 

H. — i'tHihl  you  have  built  a  vohwI  lik«*  the  "<'nrol«'na"  at 
that  tiuu-  for  that  amount?  A. — Not  with  ovj'rythinjj  <»ii 
board  h<>r,  an«-horH  and  rliaiuH  and  «>v«'rytliinK  of  that  kind. 

Q. — Wliat  wan  nhv  built  of?     A. — Douf^laH  fir. 

(J. — Now,  did  you  know  tlu'  "Tliornton,"  wliicli  bt>lonK<'d 
lO  to  tliis  port,  and  wldcli  was  in  tli<>  Healing  buHincHH?  A. — 
Y«'s,  I  kn«'w  litT. 

Q. — How  did  y«»u  happen  to  know  that  vi-swl?  Did  you 
ever  repair  lier? 

The  CommisHioner  on  tlie  part  of  the  United  States: — Are 
you  otTeriuK  tliat  evid«'ne<'  in  tliis  ea»«',  Sir  <'liar!es? 

Sir  i\  11.  Tapper: — Tliis  witness  will  n<it  be  a  lent?  witness, 
and  instead  of  reeallinfi  him  in  the  "Thorntim."  "Onward," 
"Anna   He«k,"  and  other  <"ases,  I   propose,  in  order  to  save 
20    time,  to  ask  him  nenerally  as  to  the  value  of  these  vessels. 

.Mr.  Diekinson: — My  learned  friend  objeeted  to  that  eourso, 
an«l  (lie  Commissioners  sustained  (iiem  in  forninla(in<;  (he 
ruh's.  We  desirt>  to  erosscxaniine  the  wilncss  in  the 
"Tli(«rnton"  ease  in  the  lijfht  of  the  testimcmy  in  the  "Thorn- 
Ion  case  as  it  may  come  in;  and  we  are  not  prejmred  to  cross- 
examine  him  as  to  the  "Thornton"  in  the  "('anduna.'' 

Sir  ('.  H.  Tupiter: — I  have  endeavored  (o  obtain  a  eopy  of 
(liese  rules,  but  have  not  succeeded.  My  re<'olhction  of 
3^)  them  s<ippor<s  me  in  the  opinion  that  (here  is  n(»thint;  in  any 
of  the  rules  to  prev«'nt  this  course  beinjj  followed.  We  are, 
of  c(Mirs«',  under  the  direcdon  of  the  Commissioners  in  the 
nnit(«>r,  bu(  it  se«'med  to  us  (hat  it  would  save  the  time  of 
(he  Commissioners  as  well  as  the  time  of  the  witness  to  ex- 
amine him  on  as  many  of  (hese  p'ueral  matters  us  pussiblo. 

.Mr.  I)ickins<in: — The  witness  lives  here. 

Sir  C.  H.  Tapper:— Yes. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Tliere  is  no  special  reason  why  he  cannot 
come  attain. 

Sir  C.  II.  TupjK'r: — Kxcept  that  he  has  a  nood  deal  of  busi- 
1:0s  to  iitleiMl  to,  iiiid  it  puts  iiim  (o  expense  (o  cume  here. 
Itefore  your  Honours  c(uue  to  any  decision  on  the  point,  I 
iiiiftlit  sM^);*  st  that  while  m>  answer  was  cornet  in  so  far  as 
it  intimated  that  the  main  object  in  examining  this  witness 
in  rcftard  to  the  "Thornton"  was  (ha(  he  should  not  be  i-e- 
called  in  (hat  case;  yet  it  is  i|uite  apparent  that  the  evid»nce 
would  be  as  n'levant  to  the  case  of  the  "Carolena"  in  re^xi'd 
50  to  (he  values  of  (hese  various  vessels  as  was  (tie  evidence  in 
re<j;aid  (o  all  (he  odier  sealing  vessels  (hat  we  have  ^one 
tlirou)>;li.  Take  the  case  of  the  ".May  Itelle"  and  the  various 
other  vcsM'ls  s]ioken  of  for  the  purposes  of  comparison. 

The  Ciaumissioner  on  the  |»art  of  the  Ciiited  States: — I 
think  I  correctly  express  tlie  seiitimint  of  the  Commissioners 
when  I  hope  iliat  we  shall  not  liav<-  any  further  detailed  ex- 
amination of  witnesses  on  eidier  side  as  we  had  in  reference 
to  (he  "May  ISell.."  That  evidence  sliould  be  in  the  most 
general  way. 

(io  Sir  C.  II.  Tapper: — I  do  not  at  all  intend  to  jj;»»  l"t<»  very 
minute  particulars  in  c<mnection  with  tliis  case.  I  intend  to 
ask  the  witness  very  frenerally  in  rep^ard  to  (he  value  of  the 
ship. 

Tlie  Coiniiiissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'tiited  States: — I  nn- 
derstiiiid  the  witness  lives  here  and  can  be  recalled  at  any 
time. 


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179 

Ml-.   ItirkiiiHon:— I   slmiild  roiiHriil   ■■omIII.v,  sih  I   liavt-  doiK' 
licfon'.  if  iImtc  were  any  Npfiiiil  ritcuiiiMtaiircs   wliirli   piv 
vciilfd  III*'  wiliM'HH  Itciiic  i-i'calltMl.       Itnl,  (itlici-  tliiiicH  liciii}; 
<'(|iial,  and  the  wilnci'H  living  lici-c,  I  would  prefer  my  Ifaiiicd 
friiiids  ivoiild  put  in  I  lull-  cascH  undtr  llicir  rcHpft-livc  lieadH. 

Sir  <'.  II.  Tn])p<T: — With  all  due  d<>fi>i-<'n<-<>,  I  Hnhniil  (lial 
IIiIh  cvidrnc*'  \h  relevant.  It  may  not  lie  an  inipui-taiit  feai 
tare  of  tlilH  caMe,  Imt  it  Ih  relevant,  particularly  in  tlie  lino 
of  croHH-t'xaniination  adopted  hy  my  friends  opposite.  It  U 
relevant  that  we  should  show  not  merely  the  vahu  of  the 
"Carolena."  hut  that  in  support  of  the  diicet  testimony  in 
that  line  we  should  show  what  were  the  valncH  of 
sealing;  sehooners  piierally  at  that  time.  Here  we  have 
vessels  seized  in  the  very  same  year  as  the  "Carolena."  and 
it  seems  to  me  not  at  all  irrelevant  to  know  what  these  sister 
vessels  eost,  and  also  };enerally  what  craft  of  that  description 
cost  in  the  year  in  question. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — It  would 
seem  to  m«'  hett  -r  to  keep  the  in<|uiry  separate  in  resju'ct  to 
the  sev»'ral  cases,  as  the  fourth  rule  seems  to  r«'t|uire. 

Sir  C.  H.  Tupper: — After  the  expression  of  opinion  from 
tlu'  Commissioners  I  shall  not  insist.  I  have  done  with  tho 
witness  as  far  as  the  "Candena"  is  concerned. 

The  Conin:isHion«'r  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — It  would 
lie  permissiltle  to  ^et  p-neral  evidence  in  this  case  that  would 
lie  applicable  to  the  case  of  any  other  anti  then  transfer  it; 
hut  wIh'U  it  comes  to  specific  evidence  relatiuu:  to  another 
<ase  entirely,  and  having;  no  definite  liearin;;  on  Ihe  present 
case,  it  mijflit  have  the  eA'ect  of  mixing  u]>  the  i-ases  in  a  way 
that  rule  4  does  not  contemplate. 

Sir  C.  II.  Tupper: — I  wish  now  to  ask  the  witiit  ss  another 
(piestion.  (To  witness)  t^. — Mr.  Walker,  are  you  alih-  to  sav 
anythin<r  in  re<!i!rd  t«»  flx'  olitainin;;  of  s(  hooners  suitahleTor 
sealin;;  at  this  port  in  ISStt,  or  in  this  province'?  Were 
these  vessels  easily  obtained  at  that  time?  A. — No,  they 
w»'re  not  easily  obtained. 

Cross-examination  by  Mr.  IMckinson: 

(i. — What  was  the  condition  of  the  ship  market  at  that 
time?  Was  the  su])ply  e(|ual  to  the  demand?  .\.— Tliei-e 
was  no  supply,  an<l  I  suppose  one  reason  was  that  it  would 
lake  too  lon^  to  ;;et  them  up,  and  nearly  all  the  sealing;  men 
went  east  and  brought  them  out  from  Nova  Scotia.  A  ^reat 
many  came  out  from  Nova  Scotia  from  ISS4  to  1SM7  or  ISSS. 

(i. — And  the  reason  of  their  ;;oin}f  to  Nova  Scotia  was  be- 
cause they  could  not  (jet  them  here?  A. — That  was  the 
reas«»n. 

(i. — You  have  not  been  en;;a};ed  in  shipbuilding  since  1SS4? 
A. — No,  except  as  measuring;  surveyor.  Of  <'ourse  wlu'U 
tlieiv  is  a  boat  built  I  survey  her. 

ii. — Surveyinu  is  not  shipbuildin;;.  I  ask  you  if  you  have 
been  enpijied  in  shipbuilding;?  A. — No,  I  hav«'  not  been  vn 
tii\fH'i\  in  shipbuilding  since  then. 

iy — Have  you  be«'n  ennanol  in  any  other  business  except 
surveying  for  reijistry?      .\. — Yes,  I  am  in  the  coal  business, 

ii. — Supplying'  ships  and  private  houses?  A. — Yes,  prin- 
cipally jirivate  houses. 

(2. — When  you  did  nuike  the  survey  in  1SM4,  can  you  tell 
us  whether  you  observed  the  space  occupied  by  Ihe  cabin  on 
the  "Carolena?"  .\. — ^'es.  I  think  a  uiutd  part  of  the  vessel 
was  made  into  cabin,  as  I  slated  before,  for  the  acconimoda- 
tion  tif  the  pilots. 

(2.— At  that  lime?     .\.  -Yes,  in  ISS4. 


1^0 


<!•  1 


'  ( 


Q. — Did  you  hvv  the  "Ciiioli'iia"  afCorwiifilM  wlu-ii  hIh-  wiih 
|>n'|uir«'d  tt»  }t»»  (111  till'  Mt'itliu);  voyiifj*'?  A. — \'v».  I  hiiw  lit-r, 
but  I  w)iH  not  on  Itonrd  Ikt. 

y. — And  iiad  tdu*  not  tlu-n  Ikh-u  «-liauf;i>d  wUli  rcfi'it'iicc  to 
tin-  rabin?      A. — I  do  not  know. 

(2. — Uid  mIu'  not  «1ho  liavo  a  forccaNtlc  for  tlie  iin>n?  A. — 
Not  at  tlu"  tiiiu'  I  Hurvt'.vcd  luT. 

(J. — Hlio  luui  no  water  tanks  then?    A. — Not  at  the  time 
I  surveyed  her. 
to       Q. — Without  liarin;;  the  survey  to  refer  to  can     you     re- 
nieniber  her  when  you  made  the  survey  in  IHM4?     A. — No,  I 
cannot  tell. 

Q. — I')o  you  know  her  widtli?  A. — I  de])ended  altoKeth«'r 
on  tlie  figures,  i  don't  remember  now. 

Q. — Wliat  was  lier  tonmifje?     A. — I  made  it  27  tons. 

Q. — Twenty-seven  tons  for  tlie  "Carol»'na."     A. — Yes. 

Q. — Was  tluit  builder's  ineasur*  'n«'nt'?     A. — No.     r«'f;ist«'r 
tonnnKe.  HIO  cubie  feet  to  tli*'  ton.     Tlie  vessel  is  divided  in- 
t«i  sections. 
20       Q. — How  many  cubie  feet  to  the  ton  in  that  register?     A. 
— 1(K). 

g.— Is  it  not  Km?     A.— No,  Mt(». 

i.i. — Now,  in  lfSS2,  I  think  you  stated  that  you  had  know- 
h'dge  about  se-.ilers.  When  you  were  engaged  in  shipbuild- 
ing  you  said  you  knew  something  about  the  value  of  sealers? 
A.— Yes.  We  were  referring  to  some  of  the  older  vessi'ls 
that  w»'re  In-re,  and  I  menti«ined  the  "Mary  Ellen,"  I  did 
work  <in  her  when  HJie  came  up  from  San  Francisco,  and  I 
did  work  on  tlie  "Onward"  and  on  the  "Favorite." 
30  Q. — I  think  you  said  that  in  18S4  you  did  not  kn«iw  of  any 
Healing  schooner  being  built  here?  .\. — Not  any  sealing 
schooners  in  that  year.     It  was  two  or  three  years  later. 

ii. — From  your  knowledge  can  you  tell  of  the  building  of 
jiny  sealing  H«'lio(>ners  in  Vict«iria  before  ISSfi?  A. — I  fancy 
the  "W.  1*.  Sayward"  was  built  in  18S(i.  and  she  was  about 
tlie  (Irst.  I  think. 

(2. — Do  you  know  anything  about  the     building     of     the 
"(Sracie"  and  the  "Dolphin"  here?     A — Yes,   I     know     all 
about  that,  they  were  built  in  the  ne.\t  yard,  and  we  had  the 
40   ways  at  the  u]>)ier  end  of  tli(>  harbor. 

(2. — Was  there  any  demand  f<ir  sealers  in  1SH.T  and  lSS(i 
here?     .\  — Yes,  ijuit*'  a  demand. 

(i. — They  could  be  built  more  cheaply  in  San  Francisco  at 
that  time,  could  they  not?  A. — They  could  be  built  cheaper 
in  San  Francisco,  but  I  believe  they  were  got  cheaiier  in  the 
East  away  in  Nova  Scotia. 

(J. — They  were  che.iper  in  San  Franci-sco  and  away  in  the 
Kast  than  tlu-y  were  in  Victoria?     A. — Well,  there  was  no 
duty  t(»  jiay  on  Mieni  c<uiiiiig  from  Nova  Scotia,  and  that  was 
SO    tak«Mi  into  consideration  in  buying  a  schooner. 

Q. — .\nd  you  said  in  your  direct  examination  that  they 
could  1m'  lioughi  cheap»'r  in  S-in  Francisco?  A. — Yes,  be- 
cause there  was  a  large  number  of  schooners  there  to  choose 
from. 

Q. — And  you  said  there  were  ship  yards  there  where  they 
built  a  large  number?     .\.Yes.  sir. 

Q. —  I  sujiposi'  if  a  man  wanted  a  sealer  and  he  could  get  it 
better  and  cheaper  in  San  Francisco  there  is  nothing  t«i  pre- 
vent his  getting  her  tliere  in  a  fair  market  as  they  are  build- 
60   ing  large  numbers?     \. — The  duty  was  considered  and  that 
made  the  price  liigh. 

Q. — What  was  the  Canadian  diitv  on  a  fully  etpiipped 
schooner  in  issn  jnwl  iss*;?  A.— It  was  1(»  jier  cent.,  I  think, 
and  U.'i  jier  (enl.  if  tliere  was  any  machinery. 

Q. —  I  refer  to  a  sealing  schooner  without  machinery?  A. 
— I  think  it  would  In-  10  jier  ci-nt. 


■■•  m 


20 


30 


l8i 

Q. — If  si'iili'i'tj  w«'iH'  elu-apcr  in  Man  Frani-iMi-u,  did  it  not 
liavf  muncthiut;  (o  do  witli  a  failure  to  build  tlicni  Iktc?  A. 
— W'l'  alwii.VB  ioolvi'd  on  it  tliirt  way;  down  in  a  larj;**  port 
lilii*  (liat  ]k'0|>Il'  own  HcliooncrH.  and  liavc  tlioni  in  a  Hoi-t  of 
<rad(>  tliat  nii^'lit  not  bo  prolitalile.  and  th(\v  were  ready  to 
Kcll  tlicni  to  tile  first  l»uyer  wlio  would  give  a  fair  price. 

Q. — At  San  Francisco?  A. — Ych,  and  for  that  reauon  our 
people  tooli  advantap'  of  Hclmonei-H  in  that  position. 

(i.— The.v  did  that  rifrht  alon^'?    A.— Ye«. 

Q. — What  wuH  tlie  niarlvet  value  per  ton  at  San  Fran- 
cIhco  as  compared  with  Vi«'toria,  do  ,vou  know  nnythiuK 
about  it?  A. — Well,  old  whoonerH  would  vary  according  to 
what  kind  they  were. 

Q. — Why  do  you  nay  »tld  Hchooners?  A. — We  never  saw  a 
new  one  coming  here  from  San  Francisco. 

Q. — Does  a  schooner  deteriorate  in  value  when  it  is  built 
of  "Orepron  pine"  or  "Douglas  flr"?  A. — It  nnikes  a  difi'«'r 
ence  somewhere. 

H. — How  much  does  it  deteriorate  a  year?  A. — I  do  not 
know  if  tlien>  is  any  talculation  made  jier  y«'ar.  it  depends 
u]Min  wliat  condition  slie  is  in. 

Q. — Then  an  old  schooner  is  not  worth  so  nun-h  as  a  new 
flne?  A. — If  you  lay  a  schooner  u|»  and  don't  use  her,  she 
is  worth  less  than  if  you  use  her. 

Q. — Rut  you  state  that  you  can  buy  old  schooiMTs  dump- 
er?   A. — Yes. 

Q. — Old  San  Francisco  schooners?     A. — Yes. 

Q. — Now,  when  they  are  built  of  "Douglas  fir"  at  about 
what  age  do  they  begin  to  get  cheaper?  A. — W«'ll,  say  prob- 
ably during  tlw  first  «'ight  years  they  would  not  vary  or  de- 
teriorate ]ierha|)s  as  long  as  they  are  well  taken  (-are  of. 

Q. — .\fter  that  how  much  would  they  deteriorate  in  value? 
\. — It  de]>ends  upon  h(»w  well  they  hav»'  been  taken  care  of, 
but  fhey  would  deteriorate. 

Q. — Now,  about  San  Francisco  sclio«>n(>rs,  from  eight  years 
ti  25  or  ;{(>  years,  do  you  know  anything  abour  the  market 
value  j)er  ton  of  San  Francisco  schoon«>rs  here  in  'SSS  or 
ISRfi?  A.— \o. 
4°  Q. — You  can  only  tell  what  it  would  cost  to  build  a 
schooner  here  in  Victoria  where  they  did  not  have  the  shij) 
diandlery  mat"rial,  and  where  they  would  have  to  pay  a 
high  j»rice  if  they  did  get  it.  That  is  all  you  propose  to  tell? 
A.— That  is  all. 

Q. — You  do  not  intend  to  tell  the  ccmimissioners  the 
market  value  of  a  schooner  built  for  sealing  purposes  in 
the  port  of  Victoria  in  ISHo  or  IHHO?  Do  you  think  you  have 
sufficient  knowledge  to  tell  that?  A. — I  never  was  i)ricing 
schooners  for  sealers,  but  I  have  heard  of  bargains  being  ob- 
t.iined  by  going  down  below. 

Q. — You  have  been  liere  and  heard  the  testimony  of  the 
other  witnesses  as  to  llu'  vabu'  of  this  scli(»oner?  A. — No. 

Q. — You  have  just  come  here?     A. — .Tust. 

Q. — You  said  somelhing  about  the  value  of  sealing  schoon- 
ers in  your  direct  examiiiatitm.  What  did  you  know  about 
the  value  of  sealing  schooners  in  ISSfi,  whethei'  fhey  were 
built  in  San  Francis.o,  or  Nova  Scotia  or  in  Victoria?  A. — 
It  was  something  less  than  in  the  first  years  I  came  hero. 
<3o  Tin'  wages  were  down  to  about  $4  a  day  in  1880. 

Q. — The  wages  wen-  less  in  San  Francis<'o?     A. — Yes. 

Q. — Would  the  wages  have  anything  to  do  here  with  the 
)»rice  of  a  schooner  built  in  San  Francisco  or  Nova  Sc(»tia  of 
the  sanu'  class.  A. — I  do  not  know  that  it  would  have  any- 
thing to  do  with  schooners  built  there.  I  understood  from 
l)eople  buying  s<"liooners  there  that  they  I'ways  tri«'d  to  find 
out  a  schooner  which  was  engaged  in  some  trade  that  was 


M 


50 


i 


1 82 


1-1, 


\iii|>roll(ahl«>  iiiiv]  llu'H*'  ]H*oplf  were  alwii.VB  kUu\  to  fii-i  rid  of 
llifiii. 

(i.— TIm"  owiumk  wi-n-  Klad  to  p-t  rid  of  tlioiii  in  ISSti?  A. 
Tlit>M«'  H<-liooii«'i'K  wfi'i-  iim-d  ill  hoiiu*  IIiich  (liat  wt-n*  not  \niy- 
\i\K  and  lli*>  |h>o|iI<'  Ix-rc  wt-rc  alwa.VH  looking  <nit  for  tlu'ni. 
M  niilitali'd  a};a!nHl  Itniidiu);  HiliiHtnt'iH  li.Tts  lint  at  tlu> 
sanio  time  w«'  always  conHidtM-od  tlu-.v  frot  tlicni  i«>HM  than 
tlu'ir  valn«-. 

Q. — Do  ,von  know  anytliin^  abont  tlu-  Halt-  of  tlw  "Mar.v 
lo   KIIfMi"  in    ISSti?    A.— Y»'H,  hIic  niint'  hero  from  Ran  Kran- 
rim'o. 

ii. — I>o  yon  know  anytliiii!;  abont  lior  sale  in  ISSfi.  A. — 
I  was  «)n  Itoard  of  licr  whoii  sIk'  <-aiiit>  Iuto.  I  did  sonio 
work  on  licr  dt'ck. 

Q. — WiiH  kIu'  in  v«'iy  pood  condition?  A. — Not  wry  pood 
rondition. 

(i. — llow  «dd  waH  nIic?    A. — I  tliink  slu'  was  vory  apod. 

(). — l>o  y«Mi  know?     A. — I  do  not  know  oxarlly. 

il. — Do  yon  know  anytliinp  al>ont  In-r  Hale  in  ISStt?     A. — 
20   I   lM-li(>v«>  hIic  <-lianp<-d  IuiiuIh  a  year  or  two  aft«T  kIic  canip 
hero. 

Q. — I>o  yon  know  llic  |>ric«'?     A. — No. 

ij. — Do  yon  know  wliat  licr  tonnapc  was?  A. — I  Hlionid 
jndpo  abont  7!)  *onH  or  S*>  ioun,  bnt  I  ncvtM'  ni«>aKni-«'d  b«-r. 

ij. — Slic  waH  ciiniitiicd  witli  r«-pidar  soalinp  boatH?     ji.- 
Sli<>  liatl  no  walinp  ItoatH  on  board  wlit-n  I  wan  on  li«'r,  prod 
ably  at  tlio  lant   HaK*  nIio  bad,  bat   tlio  first   time  hIm>  <-ani<> 
licrt'  slio  bad  no  Nfalinp  IukiIh. 

(j.— -I  am  H|H>itkinp  abont  tlic  yoar  ISSfi  wlion  hIio  waH  H«dd. 
A. — I  bavo  no  pcrHonal  knowb'dpc  of  that  salo. 

il. — At  tliat  tinio  was  hIic  not  one  of  the  Ix'st  boats  of  lior 
class?     A. — Slic  miplit  have  been  in  oarly  days. 

(2. — Do  yon  want  ns  to  nndj'rstand  that  slio  was  very  (dd? 
A. — Slic  was  old. 

Q. — Was  she  twonly  years  old?  A. — I  do  not  know 
wlictlicr  sli«>  w;»ald  be  twcntv.  bnt  sin-  was  bctwot'n  ten  and 


30 


twonty  to  jinlpo  of  licr  appcarancp. 


(i. — What  were  her  timbers?     A. — I  think  it  was  "Orepon 


40  ])inc. 


Q. — Tlie  same  as  'MJonplas  tlr"?  A. — T  do  not  know  that 
it  was  the  same. 

Q.— Is  there  ;;  ditT.rcnce?  .\.— There  is  very  little  differ 
en<'e,  but  we  consider  our  timber  aronnd  here  is  better  than 
it  is  in  Orepon.  the  conditions  are  better  jmuI  it  is  harder 
limber. 

Q. — There  is  a  dilTcreiice  between  tie  term  nwd  by  the 
bnilders  here  wJien  liiey  speak  of  "Donji.'as  fir"  and  of  "Ore- 
5^   pon  jiine?       .\. — Yes. 

Q. — Is  not  yours  a  little  belter  than  "American  pine  .' 
A. — Mipht  I  be  allowed  t<i  explain  that  our  limber  prows 
slower  and  it  is  harder. 

Q. — Is  your  timber  belter  for  ship  bnildinp?     A. — Yes. 

Q. — It  makes  a  more  valuable  ship?  A. — I  should  jndpo 
it  does. 

Q. — It  makes  a  more  dnrable  ship?     A. — Yes. 

Q. — Than  "Orepon  pine"?  .\. — Ye.^,  than  a  pood  many  of 
60   the  vessels  I  have  seen  built  in  Orepon. 

Q. — I  do  not  say  "built  in  Orepon,"  I  said,  "built  of  'Ore- 
pon pine."  A.— I  think  I  already  stated  that  the  "Orepon 
pine"  is  of  Hie  same  class  of  timber,  but  the  "Douplas  fir," 
havinp  prown  in  a  diftV'rent  climate  it  varies  a  litth'.  For 
instanc(>,  on  th  •  mainland  timber  that  conies  from  there  is 
not  so  pood  as  what  prows  on  the  island,  for  ship-bnildinp 
purposes,  allhoiiph  i!  is  lielter  for  licnise  work,  it  takes  a 
belter  finish. 


i83 


>'    .     '  • 


Q, — itiii  tlu>  OivKon  itiiic  d«H'H  iiut  iiiak«>  uh  valiiiililt'  iiiul 
diiralth'  ti  Hliip?  A. — It  Iiiih  more  ^iiiii  Htn'tikH  in  it.  niul  in 
ni.v  oiiiiiion  nol  hu  (^immI. 

(|._II  do«'H  not  ni)il«'  ho  diiralili-  a  Mliip?  A.— I  do  not 
tliiiili  it  would  last  quit«>  ho  lon^- 

(f._Xor  tiH  valuald«'  a  whip?  A.— Of  courHc.  I  Hii|)poHi>  tin- 
lonKfi-  a  Hliip  hiHlH  tlu'  niort*  valnaltlo  it  will  he. 

(j. — Von  an*  on   tlif  ntand   liiM't-  an  an  rxpi-ricnt-rd  Hliip 
build«-r  and  Hnrviyor.  and  I  ask  .vou  to  t«'ll  nu>  wlictlu'r  a  Hliip 
lo  liiiiit  of  houKhiH  Fir  from  tliis  iatilnd«*  in  worth  more  than  a 
sliip  ItuiK  of  (>r«');on  Tine?      A. — Y«'H. 

(J. — It  will  last  limp-r,  and  it  in  worth  nioiv?  A. —  If 
IcnKlli  of  Hi'ivici*  Ih  taken  into  eonnidtTalion  it  in  worth  more. 

(^— Yon  think  the  "Favourite"  was  built  here?  A. — Yen. 
Nile  was  built  before  I  eame  here. 

Q._Hhe  was  built  here?  A.— She  was  built  on  the  Isl- 
and. 

Sir  t'harles  llibbert  Tupper; — You  w«»uld  not  let  us  exam- 
ine tlie  witn(>HH  on  that. 

.Mr.  Diekinson: — lie  in  talkinu;  about  the  market  for  Heiilini; 
siiips  in  ISHi),  and  tliis  's  pertinent  to  the  examination. 

Sir  diaries  llibbert  Tupper: — The  learned  eounsel  is  now 
on  a  subject  that  I  |iro)MiHed  to  examine  tlie  witnt'ss  on,  but 
on  aei'ount  of  the  d(>(iHion  of  the  Court  I  did  not  do  ho. 

Mr.  Diekinson: — TIiIh  witness  spoke  in  his  direct  examina- 
tion of  tlie  liijili  value  of  ships  here,  and  th«'  value  of  the 
"Favourite"  is  therefore  pertinent. 

30  Sir  riiarles  llibbert  Tupper: — I  shall  claim  the  risjht  to 
i'e-<'xamine  the  witnesH  verv  full.v  as  to  all  the  veH8«'lH  he  in 
asked  about. 

The  ( Commissioner  <m  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — It  certain- 
l,v  opens  u]>  lo  re-examination  all  the  v«-8sels  asked  about. 

The  ('omiiiissioner  <m  the  part  of  the  I'nitt'd  States: — To 
prove  llie  value  of  this  v«'Ksel  bv  the  value  of  another  vessel 
in  such  a  manner  does  look  lik(>  trying;  to  disprove  a  disputed 
sifiiiatnre  by  k<i<iiK  ">'<>  evidence  about  another  disputed  si;;- 
4*^  natun>.  I  liardly  think  this  is  a  fair  subject  for  croaH-exami- 
nation. 

Tlie  Commissioner  on  the  jiart  of  Her  Majesty: — 1  do  not 
think  it  is  mat«-rial  to  tli(>  issue  in  tliis  case. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  jiart  of  the  I'nited  States: — Will 
you  kindly  re  state  the  question,  Mr.  Dickinson? 

.Mr.  Dickinson: — This  is  a  i|uestioii  jiredirated  upon  the 
lestinioiiy  of  tliis  witness  telling;  your  ironours  about  the 
50  scarcity  of  sealiufr  vessels  and  the  demand  for  them,  and  the 
value  IxM-ause  of  that  scarcity,  in  ISSti.  The  "Favourite"  is 
naiiicd  in  tlu'  case  here,  but  the  claim  is  not  based  on  ber 
value  at  all.  Kven  if  it  were.  I  submit  that  I  can  >:o  into 
this  evidence.  My  understandinK  is  correct,  Mr.  Peters, 
that  you  make  no  claim  for  the  value  of  the  "Favourite?" 

Mr.  Tetcrs: — rnfortunately  not. 


Go 


(Crosscxaniination  by  Mr.  Dickinson  continued): 

(i.— You  did  know  the  "Favourite"  in  IHSfi?       A.— Yob. 

(■]. — Have  you  b«'en  on  her?       A. — Oh,  yes. 

Q.— What  is  she  built  of?  A.— She  is  built  of  Douplaa 
Fir. 

H. — That  is  the  pood  timber  around  here?  A. — Yes. 

(i- — Hitrht  here  cm  the   Island?       A. — Yes. 

Q.— Did  you  know  that  the  "Favourite"  was  sold  in  ISSfi? 
A. — She  changed  hands,  but  I  do  not  know  anythinsi  about 
the  sale. 


ii!!f 


1 84 


«« 


\l 


(j. — 1H«1  ,v*Mi   kiKiw  iiiivtliiii^'  iiImmiI    the   vtiliiiilioii  hh  hIic 
rliiiiipMl  IdiiiiIk?  a. — No,  I  <li>  nut. 
(/. — Slu'  wiiH  ohi.       A. — V«'H. 
li.— Ah  ithi  )iH  tin-  "Mm-.v  Klh  i?" 

WIIH  <|llitl'  IIH  (llll   IIH    till'  "Mlll-.V    Kllt'll. 

(j. — WiiH   hIm>   ill    ^immI   iniHlitioll; 


-I  tlo  not  lliiiik  hIic 


A. — YcH,  lis  fill-  IIH  I 
know.  Hill'  litid  Im'cii  wrll  k«-i»l  iiiiil  rc|>iiircil  fritiii  liiiif  to 
linic. 

Q. — N«»w  wliiit  WIIH  till*  toiiiiti);(>  of  tlic  "Fiivoiiritt'"  in  k«mm1 
lO  coiiilitioii  IIH  hIii>  WIIH  iiiid  iiuiili'  of  tliin  nouKliiH  Fir?  A. — I 
liiivi'  not  colli'  llii-oii^li  lirr. 

(j. —  Voii  liiivi'  Ih'I'Ii  on  licr,  iinil  von  liin  h:iv  iiltoiit  wliiit 
lift'  tonna^i'  wiih?  A. — I  hIioiiIiI  hiiv  niii'  w:ih  prohiililv  T'l  or 
m  tonn. 

(i.-  And  if  voM  viiiiic  tiir  "t'lunicna'  Itnilt  of  Oiofjon  I'iin- 
nl  f4,tMM».  wliiit  would  von  vnluf  tlu'  "Fiivonritr"  at  in  ISSti. 
hIh-  iM'iiifi  SO  Ions?  A. —  I  nrvcr  wiih  railed  in  to  viiiiu'  lii-r.  I 
iiiii  of  till'  o|iinion  tliat  at  that  tinii'  tlu'i-«'  were  new  top  Hides 
put  on  the  "Favourite."  and  of  coiirHe  that  would  add  verv 
20  iiiiiih  to  her  coHt.  If  that  wan  done  after  the  partv  lioiit;ht 
her  it  would  make  a  material  ditfereme  in  lier  value  an  to 
wlietlier  that  was  done  before  or  after  nhe  wan  Hold. 

(/. — Von  Hav  that  to  tlie  Itest  of  _vonr  knowiedp*  the  "t'aro- 
leiia"  wiiH  worth  f4,(llM»  i:i  ISSCi?   "a.— Afl»'r  the  nitaiiH? 


(i. — As  ,voii  examined  her  and  eertith-d  her?      A. — Yei 


(.}. — What    wiiH  the  "Favourite"   worth'; 
after  the  repairnV 


-Itefon 


(H' 


Q. — After  tlie  repairn?  A. — 1  Hhoiild  hii.v  neven  or  «'i(;ht 
tlionsand  dollarH. 
30  ^l- — And  Hlie  wan  ei>»htv  tons,  and  Itv  the  Hunie  meiiHiire- 
iiient  the  "t'aroiena"  wan  twenty  neven  toiiH?  A. — I  eannot 
Hpeak  about  the  nieasiirement  of  the  "Favourite,"  beeiiiiHC  I 
never  iiieaHiired  her,  but  I  ean  speak  altoiit  the  "t'aroleiia," 
for  I  ineaHiired  her. 

Q. — Did  ,vou  Htate  the  "Favourite"    waH    7t»  or  St(    touH? 
A. — •Iud};int;  from  her  appearaiu-e. 

i}. — What  meiiHiirement  do  .vmi  refer  to?      A. — I  have  not 
even   wM-n   her  registry,  but   jud{;iiig  from   lier  appenranee; 


that  is  all  I  ^o  by. 
40       Q- — Have  .vou  meiiHured  the  "Caroh 


na. 


try' 


A.— Yen 


!7  tons,  for  rejjin- 


SO 


60 


Q. — .liidfjinti  b.v  tlii'  a])peiiran<-«>  of  the  "Favourite,"  wliat 
would  be  her  measurement  in  toiinap'?  A. — Iletween  70 
and  SI)  tonn;  tliat  is  from  her  appearance. 

The  f'ommiHHioni'r  on  the  part  of  lier  Majesty: — Do  I  un- 
derstand that  the  witness  knew  Hiinicieiil  of  the  "Favourite" 
to  ('.xjH'ess  an  opiniim  of  her  value? 

Mr.  Peters: — He  has  not  elaimed  that. 

\\r.  Dickinson: — He  has  been  on  her,  and  stated  that  if  she 
was  in  the  condition  he  thoiif;lit  she  was,  and  if  she  was  in 
i;ood  re]iair,  she  would  be  worth  .¥7.(l<l()  or  fS.OIIt). 

The  Comiiiissioiier  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — Did 
you  survey  the  Favourite? 

\\'i(iiess: — No.  yoiii"  Honour.  I'niess  there  is  a  cliaiifre 
made  in  the  registry  of  a  sliip  it  does  not  come  witliin  my 
kiiowledjte. 

The  ('<mimissioner  on  the  jtarl  of  the  I'nited  Slates: — I  did 
not  kn<»w  whether  she  had  been  ('iilar^ed  or  not. 

Witness: — Slu'  was  not  enlarjfed. 

(Cross examination  by  Mr.  I>ickinson  continued): 

U. — Do  you  remember  the  schooner  "Ivate?"  .\. — There 
ts  one  here  now;  is  it  tlie  same  schooner? 


in 


I85 

(j._I  do  not  know,  hiil  I  iiihIc'I-mIiiihI  hIk-  lu'loiiKcd  (u  out- 
i»f  tin-  HpriiiKH.      A. — Vt'H.  I  know  tlw  Heliuoiu>r. 

g. — NVIial  alMtiit  wiih  Ium-  (iiiinti((<-  in  IMSO?  A. — I  Hlunild 
not  think  hIic  wiih  tinitc  118  largi*  hh  tlii>  "Kavunritf." 

(j.— Atxint  liow  nincli?  Till  or  til)  tiuiH?  A. — I  hIumiIiI  hu.v 
;')()  or  tiO  tonH. 

g. — WlnTf  waH  Hill'  Iniilt?  A. — I  fani-.v  il  wnH  np  north 
Im'M'. 

g.— Miiilt  of  UonithiH  Fir?  A. — No,  tlieiv  wan  .v»'llow  «HMlnr 
in  Inr,  I  Diink. 

g. — An-  In-r  tiinbt'i-H  .vcllow  ci  dar?  A. — I  do  not  know, 
i'lit  tlH'H'  waH  ,vt'llo\v  rcdar  in  Ih-i'  d«'<k  wln-n  i  Hi-Ht  naw  lu'r. 

iy — Yon  don't  know  wlnit  h«'r  tlnilMTH  w«'r»'?  A. — I  can- 
not   MI.V.  I 

(j. —  In  mnnl  n>|»air  hIm*  woh  wot-tli  in  ISStt  ahont  how  nnirh? 
A. — Hlic  waM  not  w»»Hh  vcrv  ninrh  at  that  tinu',  bnt  nhi'  wnH 
«'lian);<Ml  altoptlMM*  after  roiniiiK  lii'rc. 

Q. — In  issti  when  hIu'  wan  lioiv  what  was  hIic  worth?  A. — 
I  Hhonl<l  tliink  hIic  waH  worth  about  f't.ntMI. 

(i. — l>o  .von  rt'ni«'nib«>r  about  tlic  "Th«)rnton"  and  th«'  "On- 
ward" iM'inp;  for  nali'  iM'rc  in  IHSli?  A. — 1  boli«'vo  that  wan 
aliont  till'  tinu*  IIm*  owner  of  one  of  tlieni  died. 

(2. — Wan  hIic  for  nalo  tlion?  A. — YeH,  I  believe  8he  woh 
put  np  for  Hnle. 

(i. — And  the  "Thornt«»n"  also?  A. — I  am  not  nwnri*  of  the 
"Thornton." 

Q. — Yon  do  not  remember  that?       A. — No. 

(J. — I>o  ,voii  remember  that  tlie  "Anini  Heek"  wnn  put  up 
for  Kale  in  tiiat  year?      A. — I  knew  the  Hch(M)ner,  but  I  do 

for  HJiie.      I  knew 


,0  uot  know  anything  about  her  beiuK  put  up 
the  Nchooner  "Anna  Heck"  well. 


40 


50 


60 


(i. — Was  the  "\Y.  1'.  Say  ward"  thnt  you  have  Hpoken  of 
put  up  for  Hale  in  188(i?  A. — Hhe  t-hanged  bnndH  Roniewhere 
about  that  time. 

(j. — Yon  do  n«>t  know  anything;  about  the  prit-e  that  wan 
paid  for  her?      A. — No. 

(i. — Ho  you  remember  that  the  "tJraeie"  and  the  "Dolphin" 
were  sold  in  IHHCi?  A. — I  do  not  know,  but  I  do  not  think  it 
\\i\H  a  ]iubli<-  Hale. 

Q. — >Yli«'n  you  tentitied  an  to  the  value  of  shipn  in  ISSfi 
yon  were  not  very  familiar  with  vt'HHeln  that  wew  sold  In 
that  year,  wew  you.  or  familiar  with  their  pricoH?      A. — No. 

(.}. — It  wan  not  part  of  your  bUHineHH  to  keep  poHted  an  to 
the  Hah'H?  A. — i'nlesH  junt  cnminK  in  contaet  with  thone 
wlio  were  buying  and  were  juM-Honnl  friendn  of  mine. 

(y — You  liave  no  npecial  oppoi-tunitit  h  to  find  out  tlie  prices 
of  the  HjileH?  A. — Not  unlesM  I  was  called  in  to  make  n  val- 
uati(m. 

Q. — \Ver««  you  called  in  in  ISSfi  to  nmke  a  valuation  of  any 
of  thcHe  Hchoonern?     A. — No,  not  of  any  of  tbcHe  Hchooners. 

Q. — So  that  not  havinj;  niad«'  intjuiries,  or  not  having  been 
cnlh'd  in  to  Hurvey  or  entimate  you  do  not  know  what  the 
valuation  of  sclioonera  in  1^80  was?  A. — \Vell,  only  hear- 
iuR  about  what  they  cost. 

Q. — .\nd  your  knowliKlpe  of  the  cost  conicB  from  the  oRti- 
mate  of  the  labor  and  the  cost  of  buildini;  here?    A. — Yes. 

Ke-exaniined  by  Sir  Charles  Ilibbert  Tuj»iter. 

Q. — Mr.  Walker,  are  you  Interested  in  any  of  the  v«>s»els 
for  whi<'h  claims  ar«'  beinit  made  here?    A. — No. 

Q. — Are  vou  interested  in  nnv  of  the  claims  hen*?  A. — 
No. 

Q. — Had  you  on  any  occasion  to  examine  either  the  *  Fa- 
vorite" or  the  '-Kate"  as  you  had  to  examine  the  "rarohnn"? 
A.— No. 


til 


f 


186 


»-<! 


Q. — You  «lo  not  kii«»w  km  iniii-li  ot  tin*  fuiHiiiiciioii  mid 
iMiild  aud  iiii'MMUiviiifiil  of  tlit-Hc  vi'iwoIm  iih  \oii  tl'j  of  I  lie 
"<'aioI«'iiii."      A. —  No. 

<i. — Voii  liiid  no  orniHion  to  p;o  llirou^li  tlnw  otlitT  v<'mm<>Ih 
lhor<tuglil,v?    A. — No. 

(i. — l>o  .von  know  wln'tlicr  n>|i)iirH  wort'  put  u|M»n  tin' 
"Kiitc"  nftcr  hIio  rani«>  hcrt'?  A. — Hlu-  waH  n'pain'd  on  llic 
walor,  lln-n'  w«'r«'  top  HidcH  put  on  In-r.  I  lii-llcvt'.  and  Hcvcnil 
otluT  ln'av,v  rcpaii-M. 

Q.— Hlu'  waH  icpaii-«>d  from  tin-  wat«'r  rinlit  up?     A. — Yen. 

(i.— Mr.  DifkiuMon  ivferrt-d  to  tlu-  "Ada"  I  think,  do  you 
know  that  Ht-hoonor?    A. — Y»'h. 

(i. — You  wort'  hiTo  when  hI»'  arrivi-d  at  tliiH  port  from 
.?;'(»an?    A. — Yi-h,  I  waH  on  l>oard  h«'i". 

(i. — >Yhat  wiiH  hIm'  worth?  A. — I  «-onHid«>r«>d  h»'r  a  flr»t- 
fhiHH  Hcliooncr,  uhc  waH  tiniHhi-d  in  teak  wood,  wliii-li  in  a 
m«>Ht  coHtl.v  wood. 

Q. — What  WHH  lier  build?    A. — Slu*  was  a  achooniT. 


20       Mr.  DickiuHon- — I  did  not  a^k  him 
".\da." 


an.vtiiing    silHxit     th<> 


30 


40 


Hir  <'liarl«'H  Tu]»p«'r,  ,v<ni  aHk<'d  liini  about  m'vcral  and  1 
thought  ,voH  nicntiuiu-d  tliu  "Ada."  (To  witncsH):  \Yluit 
was  the  t<innaK«'  of  tlj*'  "Ada"  to  your  knowli'dgt*?  A. — I 
Kliould  flay  about  75  tons. 

Q. — IHd  .vo»i  buy  a  vchwI  yourwlf  and  brinjj  in'r  ht-ro  at 
tliat  tinu'?    A. — Tho  stoani  Hcliooncr  "MiBcldff." 

Q.— What  wart  i\w  tonnat'o  of  tlic  "Miscliit-f"?  A.— Tlu> 
"Misclii«'f"  wa«  r>S  tons  n'jjiHtcr. 

Q._W)H.n  did  v«Mi  buy  timt  vi'hsoI?     A.— In  1S!)2. 

Q.— IIow  old  waH  hIic?    A.— 81n'  was  built  in  IHSti. 

Q.— What  would  hIh-  tont  in  ISHG?  A.— It  was  (•(•nsidcn'd 
about  f  1(MM)0  with  the  nuK-hint-ry. 

(Re-cross-examined  by  Mr.  Dickinson): 

(J. — What  kind  of  a  8hi|»  was  that,  was  she  n  steam  sliip? 
A. — Hlu'  was  an  auxiliary  jtropeller. 

(i. — Where  was  she  built?  A. — Hlie  was  built  in  Yakima 
at  the  n    nth  of  the  Columbia  river. 

Q. — W  (J  she  tltted  up  with  sails  as  well  as  steam?  A. — 
Yes. 

Q. — IHd  she  seal?     A. — Yes.  until  she  was  orden'd  home. 

Q. — Did  she  sro  seaiinp?    A. — Yes. 

Q._WlH.re?     A.— On  the  I'acitlc  Poast. 

Q._When  wap  that?     A.— In  1H02  or  ISO.I. 

Q.— Did  she  do  any  sealing  in  IKSfi  or  1SS7?     A.— No. 

Q. — You  stated  to  Wr  Charles  Tapper  that  yon  were  not 
Interested  in  these  matters  at  all.  and  \t\  you  state  n<»w 
that  vonr  ship  was  ordered  out  of  Rehrin*?  Sea  for  sealinfr? 
A.— Yes. 

(Ry  Sir  CharleK  Tapper): 

Q. — I  asked  the  witness  if  he  had  any  interest  in  tiie 
claim.  (To  witness):  You  have  no  int«'rest  in  any  claini 
here?    A. — Not  in  anv  claim  here. 

.And  the  above  named  witness.  Walter  Walker,     was    re- 
Go  called. 

(Examined  by  Mr.  Peters) : 

Q. — Is  that  the  original  document  that  you  nctmUly  made 
uj>  with  reference  to  ih<'  "Carolena"?     A. — It  is. 

Q. — I  se«'  th«'re  are  two  documents  here.  A. — Y«'s.  the 
one  sets  forth  the  0);nres  on  which  I  based  my  reports  of  the 
surveys.     I  iiiiKlit   explain  that  I   wns  not  appointed  to  the 


50 


i»7 

onir*-  nl  Uiiil  tiiii*'  iiii«l  «ll«l  uol  liiivc  llif  n'Kular  r«inii>);  I  illd 
Mill  lmv<>  IIm>  oniriiil  HttitioiM-r.v  iiiid  w»  I  iiitult'  up  Hint  |ta|H>r 

IIIVHOlf. 

V^.—Yoii  U'U   (IiIh  •toriihit'iit  at  llu-  CiiMtoiii   iluiiHf?     A.— 

V«'H. 

g._Y<Hi  U'U  it  Willi  Mr.  Mlliu'.  wlu>  wau  «-oIli'ct«»r  «»f  t-iiH- 
toiiiM?    A.— Yen. 

l('rnHH«'xaiiiin<>(l  l>y  Mr.  DickiiiHou)- 

lo      g. — tIh'  ki'^hm  toiiiia|;t>  3011  put  in  at  211?     A. — Yea. 

Q. — Anil  you  allowrd  for  tlii'  |HM)p  «>r  caliin  ^.'.W  touH?    A. 

iy — Thi-ri"  wart  n<»  olln'r  i-IohciI  Hpacc  in  hi'r?    A. — 'Sow. 

y.— Tiiat  Ih  hIii'  hail  no  oIIum-  i-ni-lowd  Hpac*-  I'xri'pt  tln> 
niliin?  .\.— Yi-M.  1  cxplainitl  tliat  l).v  cxplaiiiinf;  tin*  rIaMH  of 
IxiHini'HH  Mill'  waH  in;  hIh'  waH  um'd  h.v  pilotH. 

(j.— And  llu'  total  tonnap',  ini-lndinp  tlio  rnbin  is  27.:tli? 
A.— Yi'8. 

(j. — .\nd  till'  width  .vou  Htati-  lii'i-t^  of  lit  fi'i't  Ih  oiitHid«>  <»f 
20  plankinp;,  i«  it  not?  A.— Yoh,  it  In  ontHidv  of  tlu'  piankinK', 
il  is  1G5  fot't. 

Mr.  IMi-kinHon: — I  wish  to  know,  Mr.  IVtorH,  what  pa]N>rH 
von  arc  ;;oinK  to  put  in. 

Mr.  Pi'tcrH: — T1h>  dornnicnt  I  propose  to  put  in  Ih  thi> 
iMiildir'H  cfrlifliatc,  dati'd  the  Ifttli  of  .\pril,  1HS4.  I  propow' 
to  put  in  a  i-iMilHi'd  fopy  of  tho*  ;ih  '•exhibit  II.  O  R,  Tar- 
oli'na'  raw." 

30      Till'  t'xaniinafion  of  tlu'  aluivo  nanti-ii  witncHH  whr  rloR«>d. 


40 


CyO 


Ali'xandi'r  Watson,  Jr..  of  tin*  I'il.v  ol  Virtoria,  Hliip  liuild- 
i-r,  a  witni'HH  produi-*'d  on  bi-lialf  of  Ilcr  Maji'sty,  bcinn  ArHt 
duly  Hworn,  tcnliticd: 

Kxiiniinod  by  Mr.  l>i(>qui>: 

Q. — Mr.  >VatHou,  what  is  your  occupation?  A. — Ship- 
wright. 

(i. — How  lon;j  have  vou  been  occupied  in  that  buHincHH? 
A.— Hincc  1S74. 

(J. — ()»■<  your  own  account?    A. — No.  not  lately. 

0. — You  wi'ri'  appri-ntici'd  to  that  trade?    A. — Y^es. 

Q. — IIow  lontf  have  you  be<'n  workinu  on  yonr  own  nc- 
coiint?  A. — 1S^»I^  waK  the  tirnt  job  I  took  on  my  own  ac- 
count. 

Q. — WiXH  your  fatlcr  in  the  sanio  businesH?     A. — Ych. 

Q. — And  wer.'  you  working  with  him  for  Hevernl  yenrK? 
A.— Yes. 

Q. — I  Ruppone  yon  have  a  good  deal  of  experience  in  the 
value  of  vcHHelrt  A. — Well.  F  have  be<'n  working  at  them 
all  that  time,  it  is  all  the  work  I  have  done. 

Q. — What  Ih  the  clasH  of  vesKel  that  you  have  conKtructed 
jirincijmlly?  A. — Mostly  <«teainers.  I  have  worked  on 
silioonerH  and  built  HchoonerH. 

(i. — IIow  many  vefselB  Inne  you  built?  A. — Do  you  mean 
uiyHcIf? 

Q. — Yi'H,  or  work-^d  on  the  building  of  them?  A. — I 
have  worked  on  vesh-lp  of  300  tons. 

Q. — Did  you  know  (he  Taroli'na"?    A. — Yes. 

Q. — Did  you  ever  do  any  worK  on  the  'Tarolpna"?  A. — 
I  worked  on  her  once.  I  tidnk. 

Q. — When  was  it?  A. — ^Yhen  she  was  repaired  after 
coming  into  collision  with  a  steamer  coming  into  Victoria 
harbor. 


I'O 


li 


!•!« 


30 


188 

Q. — For  wimt  jHirjiosi'  wnn  hIio  u8<m1  them?  A. — Sho  wns 
1.  pilot  bnat  I  tliink,  but  I  would  not  lu>  )iosltivo  on  that. 

(2. — In  what  .voar  was  it  about?  A. — 1  cannot  fjivo  it  to 
.von  t'xartlv.  bin  it  was  about  IHH'2  ov  ISH'A. 

ii. — |>i(l  .VOJi  sec  her  oiit  of  the  wat«T  tlu-n?     A. — Yt'S. 

(}. — Had  you  occasion  thon  to  wo  in  what  conditioi'  slu> 
was?     A. — Y«'8,  wo  cotild  st'c  pretty  w«'ll  what  she  was  like. 

Q. — Had  yon  any  «)<-4asion  to  form  an  opinion  as  to  her 
vahu'?  A. — Well,  I  conld  see  what  the  vessel  was  like,  but 
lo  d<m't  know  as  I  finiiied  anv  o]>inion  as  to  lier  value  at  that 
time. 

(i. — Hut  from  the  knowledge  that  yon  then  ae(|nired  of  the 
vessel  w'cit  would  you  estinnite  her  value  to  be  then?  Well, 
of  course  the  value  varies,  but  I  e(Mild  pve  y<Mi  a  ijenerjsl  val- 
uati(m;  it  would  be  abtiut  #4.(100.  or  ])erhaps  a  little  lower, 
but  somewhere  about  that. 

Q. — What  do  you  mean  to  say  when  you  say  that  the  valm- 
varies?     A. — Tlu'  market  value  I  mciin. 

y. — What  was  the  luiirket  value  then  as  compared  with 
20   what  it  was  in  more  recent  y«  ars?     A. — In  what  year? 

Q  — In  1SM5  or  ISSO  as  compared  (o  the  present  time?  A. — 
They  wer«'  higher  then  than  they  are  now,  that  is  at  the  pres- 
ent day. 

Q. — How  much  per  cent,  about?  A. — I  <iness  about  20  per 
cent. 

ij. — That  is  on  account  of  the  more  expen-tiive  mat«'rial  and 
labor,  I  suppos(>?  A. — Y«'s,  the  mat(>rial  and  lab^r  and  other 
matters. 

Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Lansing. 

i). — Mr.  Watson,  are  you  a  shipwriirht  now?     .\. — Y<-s.  sir. 

i]. — And  at  the  time  you  rejiaiicd  the  "Candena"  in  1SS2  or 
1SS:t  you  stated  that  she  laid  been  in  i 
think  so. 

Q. — With  what  vessel,  do  you  know? 
serves  me  ri{;ht  it  was  tlu>  "North  Pacific." 

Q. — Wai<  tlu'  schoon»'r  sunk?       A. — So. 

Q. — You  kn«tw  that  she  was  not  sunk? 
aot  think  so. 
40       Q- — ^^  "**  *•'"'  '"••lly  danmged?  A. — \ot  very  badly  damajjcd, 
but  she  had  her  bow  knocked  out. 

Q.— Was  it  in  the  side?       A.— No, 
into  the  "N'<nth  I'acitic."   I  believe. 
Iisi<m,  but  I  know  she  was  damaged. 
I  worked  on  the  rejtairs. 

Q. — Have  y<»n  worked  on  other  sialing  vessels  besides  the 
"Carolena?"       A. — Yes. 

Q. — Have  von  built  anv?      .\. — I  have  built  the  hull  of  one. 

Q._\Vl,i,t'oiie?  A.— The  "Minnie." 

(i. — When?  A. — I  started  her  in  ISSH  and  tinished  her  in 
1,SS!). 

(J. — What  was  her  tonnage?  .\. — I  cannot  give  In  r  tonnage 
i'xactly. 

(i. — Well,  about  wli.it  was  it?  A. — It  was  about  4H,  or  some- 
where around  that;  4S  tons,  I  think. 

Q. — Did  you  work  on  her  (.r  did  yon  build  her?  A. — I 
built  her  in  comi»any  with  another  man. 

Q. — When  you  were  rejKiiring  the  "("arolena"  did  you  go 
nil  through  the  vessel?     A. — Do  yon  mean  did  I  walk  through 

60   •»«'••? 

Q. — Yes,  and  examine  lu-r?  .\. — I  have  been  all  tlirongh 
her.  I  did  not  examine  her  thorotighly  |iarticularly.  but  I 
took  jtieces  out  of  hei'. 

Q.— Out  of  the  bow?       A.— Yes. 

(J. — How  far  back  did  this  injury  extend  from  the  bow? 
A. — The  injury  did  not  extend  very  far,  but  tlw  repairs  ex- 
tended about  20  feet.  We  had  to  go  back  prett;,  well;  20  or 
.10  f»'et,  20  feet  anvhow. 


50 


collisi(»n?       A. — I 
A. — If  my  memory 

A.— Well,  I  do 


in  the  bow.       She  ran 

I  did  not  see  the  col- 

I  did  not  see  it  until 


189 

(j. — III  ,vour  (.xiiiiiiMiituiii  of  licr  you  iiotictMl  iiaititiilarly 
ulial  she  was  built  of  and  tlit*  t-oiidilioii  hIio  wau  in?  A. — 1 
noli(<'«l  (111'  i»i«'rt's  I  tooix  out  of  lu'i". 

il — Did  you  oxainiiH'  ll»'  riBt  of  tin'  vt'Hsel  at  all  to  soc 
iicr  «(inditi(in?      A. — No. 

ii. —  IMd  you  «'xaniiiii'  lior  d«'tl»s?  A. — I  iiiadi'  no  H|K>riat 
'xainination. 

Q. — Wliat  did  you  tix  your  valuation  of  |4.t)()l)  on?  A. — Just 
(in  (lie  general  value  of  vchsoIh. 
lo       Q. —  l>o  you  tliink  from  your  knowl)d};<>  of  tin-  "farolcna' 


\ou  ar*>  able  to  tix  a  valuation  «>n  that  vtsHcl? 


-Do  you 


iisk  nil'  if  I  think  inyNflf  <-oni]H't*'nt;  if  so,  that  is  hardly  a 
(|ii*-stion  for  inc  to  answer.  I  think  I  am  from  my  know- 
Icdfjc. 

t^. — On  what  knowhdj;*'  do  you  base  your  oi»inion?  A. — On 
licinf;  around  schooners  and  working;  on  them. 


(i. — Did  you  evrr  buy  a  vei 


?      A.— Y( 


il. — Did  you  ever  sell  one?       A. — Ves.   I   so!d  the  one    I 
made  under  contrael. 
:o       t^.— What  did  you  sell  her  for?      A.— For  about  #2,St»ll,  the 
|iart  I  made. 

ti.— How  mueli  was  her  entire  value?  A. — I  did  not  build 
the  whole  vessel,  but  cmly  the  bare  lower  part,  without  tlt- 
linjjs. 

<i. —  You  were  in  partnership  with  another  man  on  it?  A  — 


(i. — I  low  mueh  did  you  re<('ive?       .\ 


(}.— How  mueh  did  the  other  man  receive? 
(lived  that. 


I.SdO  for  my  i>ait. 


-W 


e  re- 


30       i-i. — What  did  the  owner  do  then?  .\. — The  owner  tinished 
her.  of  course. 

(}.— What  did  you  build  of  that  vessel?  .\.— I  built  the 
bare  hull  without  any  tiltiiifis  and  without  any  iron  w<irl<. 

ii. — ^'ou  say  she  was  about  tH(  tons?  \. — 4S  t(ms.  or  8(»nie- 
where  about;  th.-it  is  only  a  ^uess. 

t^. — Was  that  \ictor  .lacobson's  boat?      A. — Yes. 

(.}. — Did  you  build  her  by  registered  toiinap'  or  by  builder's 
tonnasje?       A. — No. 

(i. — On  what  measur.  mcnt  did  you  build  he.?      A. — Hy  tho 
40   leiinth.  breadth  and  depth,  by  spic'tlcatic  n. 

(}. — You  built  her  for  a  lump  sum.  .V. — Y<'s.  he  nave  iih' 
the  len;;th,  breadth  and  dejitli. 

(.y — Now  to  return  to  the  (|uestioii  of  your  knowh'dfH'  as 
lo  the  market  valr.e  of  schoom^rs,  what  vt^sels  do  you  know 
of  i'l  ISSti  that  were  scdd  here?  .\. — There  was  no  sale  to 
my  own  personal  kiiowledK"'.     ? 

ii. — In  ISS.")  what  vessels  w«'re  s»dd  here?  .V. — I  do  not 
know. 

(i. —  111   1SS4  what   vessels  were  sold  here? 
30  know  of  anv.  I  was  not  in  that  business. 


-I  do  not 


(i.— And  in  ISST' 


A.— No. 


Q. —  How  (lo  you   know  what   the  "("aroh'iia"  w<uild  have 


hold  for' 


.\. —  I  do  not  know  what  she  would  have  sold  fen*. 


<l. — How  do  y<ui  know  how  much  she  was  worth?  A. — 1 
fiave  my  opinion  of  her  value. 

iy — Ihiw  could  you  f'oiui  an  opinion  of  lu-r  value  when  you 
don't  know  what  the  market  juice  was?     .\. — 1  could  tell  by 
what  I  heard  of  vess(>ls;  it  was  only  hearsay,  of  coiii'se. 
(Kj       (J.- -Von  <an  stale  what  they  cost  to  build?     .\,— Yes 

'^ — That  is  .\ou'.'  own  opinitm?     .\. — Yes. 

')•— ^'ou  do  ii»>t  know  of  a  sin(ile  sale  «>f  a  vessel  in  these 
yinis?  A.  -  No,  there  mijrht  have  been  sales  but  I  don't 
know  anvlliiuf:  about  then). 

(i. —  Do  you  know  of  any  vessels  built  from  1SS4  to  1SS7 
inclusive?  .\. — Y»'S,  I  think  there  were  S(»iiie  vesstls  built 
in  tliat  linio. 


H^TW-    -   •  T  ■"  T  »  ▼ 


190 


30 


<i. — Wliiit  oiu'8?  A. — I  would  not  lu>  jiositivi'  as  to  tlit'ir 
iininoti.  but  I  thJnk  the  "Onuio"  and  the  "Wa.vward"'  wci'e 
built  then. 

Q. — The  "fJnu'ie  was  built  bofoio  that?  A. — IVrhaps  she 
waH  Init  I  cannot  say. 

Q. — Do  .vou  know  of  any  bidH  beinji  made  for  Healiu};  ves- 
sels in  that  time?  A. — Not  positlvc'ly;  I  may  have  been  giv- 
ing bids  myself  but  I  oould  nt)t  be  certain. 

<}. — ^'ou  have  no  recollection  of  any  being  made?    A. — I 
10  would  n(  t  swear  to  it. 

IJ. — And  your  knowledge  is  the  knowledge  of  what  it  would 
cost  to  build  that  vessel?  A. — Yes,  I  know  what  it  would' 
cost  to  build  her. 

(i. — ^^'llat  would  it  have  «ost  to  have  built  a  vessel  like  the 
"Carolena"  in  1S86?  A. — You  would  liave  to  give  me  tin* 
siie<ilications  of  the  "Carolena"  before  I  could  tell  (hat  ex- 
actly. 

(i. — Do  you  know  how  long  the  'Tarolena"  was?    A.--N0. 

<i. — ]>()  y«»u  know  her  breadth?    A. — No. 
20       Q- — 1*0  .vou  know  her  dei)tli  of  hold?     A. — \o. 

<.}. — Do  you  know  anything  about  Ikt  in  particular?  A. — 
I  have  set  n  her  l)ut  I  did  not  measure  her. 

Q. — IIow  could  you  fix  your  valuation,  then?  A. — I  mean 
her  tonnage. 

Q. — >Vhat  was  her  tonnage?  A. — ;15  t«ms,  as  I  understand. 

Q. — How  much  did  it  cost  to  buibl  this  .'{5  ton  registered 
tonnage  vessel?    A. — Al)()ut   ';!!)(I0  odd  dolliir.s. 

Q.— Was  that  in  188(5?  A.— Yes.  The  average  vessel 
might  run  higlu'r  and  they  might  run  lower;  it  all  depends  on 
(he  class  of  vt'ssel. 

Q. — And  if  she  was  only  27  tons  register,  what  wotild  yon 
say  she  was  worth?      A. — She  would  be  worth  lower. 

{}. — And  if  you  were  told  the  "Carolena"  was  '27  tons  regis- 
ter, what  would  you  say  her  valn«>  was  then?  A. — I  would 
have  to  figure  that  out. 

Q. — Well,  figure  it  out,  on  your  own  opinion. 

The  <  "ommissioner  on  the  jmrt  of  the  United  States: — There 
must  be  some  mistake  about  that.  I  n«>tice  the  surveyor 
says  she  was  '27  tons  and  the  register  says  she  was  'M  tons. 

Ml'.  I'eters: — I  think  we  should  recall  Mr.  Walker  as  to 
(ha(;  (he  old  registry  was  wrong  and  he  rcduct'd  her. 

The  ComniissioiU'r  on  (he  |!ar(  of  II«'r  Majesty: — Mr.  Walk- 
er said  here  (hat  she  was  27  tons,  and  it  struck  me  as  strang*? 
(ha(  aft»'r  they  had  lengthened  her  she  should  be  less  than 
she  was  Ix'fore. 

Cross-examinadon  by  Mr.  Lansing  con(inued: 

50       (i- — How  iniicli  do  you    say  the  value    would  be?       A. — 
|;{,:{7ri;  (ha(  is,  allowing  she  was  a  good  average  vessel. 

Tlu'  Commissioner  on  (he  par(  of  (he  I'liKed  S(a(es: — Did 
you  (igure  on  (he  registered  tonnage?  A. — Yes,  the  regis- 
tered. 

(Ity  Mr.  Lansing): 

il. — That  is  what  it  would  <os(  (o  build  a  vessel  of  that  sisse 
in  188(>?      A. — Yes,  an  averiige  vessel. 

C)0       lie-examined  by  Mr.  1<iei|ue: 

(i. — Tha(  is  if  yoti  figured  t»n  27  tons  regisfry,  as  you  have 
nu'ndoiied?      A. — Ye;^. 

H. — Do  you  say  (ha(  would  have  been  (lie  (•os(  in  lSS(i,  or 
to-day?  .\. — Tliat  would  have  been  (he  cos(  in  1H8(!, 

l}. — 1(  would  have  been  (he  cos(  in  18S(1?      A. — Yes. 

(}. — Yon  have  been  asked  as  (o  the  ".Minnie.  Do  yon  know 
what  she  e«»8(  her  owner  when  she  was  (inisiied?       \.— No,  I 


40 


lyl 

do  not  know  t-XiuH.v  wlmt  she  «-(mt  liini. 
This  clowU  tlif  exaininatiou  of  the  wituesB. 


IP 


30 


10       Siinnu'l  MfCnllouRh  Smith,  of  the  eity  of  Victoria,  a  wit- 
ness prodneed  on  belialf  of  Her  Majesty,  was  duly  sworu. 

Examined  by  Mr.  IVters: 

Q. — Wliere  dt»  yon  reside,  Mr.  Smith?    A. — lu  Victoria. 

Q. — I  believe  you  iiave  been  in  tlie  sliip-buildiug  busiuess 
for  a  ioiifj  time?    A.— For  a  number  of  years. 

y. — For  how  many  years?    A. — .'$5  years. 

Q. — Wliere  did  you  b»'}jin  to  work  in  ships?    A. — At  Mait- 
land,  Xova  Scotia, 
-o       Q. — That  is  where  all  the  good  shipbuilders  come  fram.     I 
iK'lieve  you  had  (piite  a  l«»nK  experience  in  Nova  Scotia?    A. 
— Yes,  I  had  a  lonj?  experience. 

Q. — You  were  a  master  slii])builder  in  Nova  Scotia,  were 
you?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — For  how  many  yeai's  before  you  left  there?  A. — For 
a  jrood  numy  years. 

Q. — You  built  sonif  sliij»s  before  you  left  there?  A. — I 
believe  four  ships  as  master  builder. 

(i. — I  believe  they  were  large  ships?  From  500  to  about 
1.000  tons. 

(i. — When  you  left  Nova  Scotia  did  you  come  here  direct? 
A. — I  came  here  direct. 

Q. — That  is  how  manv  yvtim  ago?  A. — I  came  here  in 
is-fi. 

Q. — And  sini'e  you  have  been  here  have  yoii  beeu  building 
hhips  also?    A. —  Mostly  altogether. 

0. — Were  you  in  jmrtnership  in  the  business  with  any  one 
t  Ise  in  this  country?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Who  were  you  in  ]>artnerHhip  with?  A. — Well,  first 
((>  a  small  t'xtent  I  did  some  work  with  Mr.  Turpel.  Later 
on  I  was  in  business  with  .Mr.  Warner. 

Q. — Are  you  now  engagi'd  in  ship-building?  A. — 1  am 
now  engaged  as  Suju'rintendent  of  the  Marine  Railway  at 
Ksquimalt. 

(i. — How  long  have  you  been  engaged  in  that?  A. — Some- 
thing more  than  a  year. 

Q. — Since  you  have  been  in  Vict(»ria  have  j'ou  actually 
built  sealing  schooners?     A. — I  have. 

Q. — I  do  not  wish  t»»  go  into  the  nature  of  th«'  vessels  in 
dispute,  so  I  will  take  th«>  names  of  the  vesels  y(»u  have 
built.  Did  you  build  the  Dolphin?  A— I  built  the  Dolphin 
as  master  workman. 

Q. — You  were  superintendent  of  the  building  of  the 
Didphin?     A.— Yes. 

Q. — Did  y<m  build  (he  Sea  Lion?  A. — 1  did  as  master 
workman  and  contra(tor. 

(i.— Did  you  build  the 
as  master  workman. 

Q.— Did  you  build  the 
tlie  "itjirbara  Hoscowil/,' 


40 


50 


■Charlotte  Cox"?      A.- 


60 


-Yes.  partly, 
A.— 1  built 


Marbara  IJoscowitz"? 
as  master  workman. 
Q. — Did  you  build  otlu  r  vessels?    .\. — I  luiilt  steamboats; 
that  is  all  the  sealing  vessels  I  remember  that  I  built. 

iy — (ienerally  speaking  you  have  had  ex|>erience  in     Nova 
Scotia  and  N'ictoria  in  building  vessels?      .\. — Yes. 

Q. — (1en<'rally  s|)eaking  T   want  to  ask  you.  how  does  the 
expense  of  building  a  sliip  in  Nova  Scotia     compare     with 


192 


>fi\ 


buildiiiK  hi'i'  lu>i-i>?  1h  it  iiiiit-li  Ki'*'>>tt'i'  l>(>r«>,  or  iH  it  1«>hh  iu 
Xova  Hfotiu?     A. — It  iH  iiiufli  less  in  Nova  Scotiu. 

(2. — Talit'  out'  item  onl.v,  tin*  (|iu>Htiou  of  wa^i'H;  wluit  are 
tilt'  oitliuarv  want's  of  Hlii|)  farju'iittMH  in  Xova  St-otia?  A. — 
In  Nova  Kcotia  we  pa.v  tlieni  about  |l.r»()  jht  day. 

Q. — And  wluit  is  tlu'  ordinary  wa{?es  you  pay  liere?  A. — 
At  preHent  it  in  |:{.r)0. 

Q. — And  goiuK  ba»k  ten  yearH  af;o  wliat  was  it?    A.--f4.()W 

ii. — So  tliat  of  itself,  must  malie  a  larjie  diir«'ren«*e    n  tlie 

lo  price  «)f  a  vessel,  it  would  make  a  vessel  built     in     Vict(H-ia 

mueli  dearer  than  a  vessel  built  in  Xova  S«-otia?      A. — Yva. 

Q. — The  pric»'  of  luuiber  is  very  much  higher  here  than  it 
is  in  Xova  Hcotia  I  supjiose?  A. — Yi's,  much  higher  iu 
Victoria. 

Q. — Is  there  much  difference  iu  the  price?  A. — In  pen- 
eral  lumber  in  tlu'  east  costs  about  fS.OO  jter  tliousand  feet, 
as  far  as  I  renu-mber;  and  lier(>  it  costs  perhsips  l|>lli.OII  I 
speak  »»f  course  fr«»m  memory.  We  used  to  l»uy  our  lumlter 
in  Xova  Scotia  by  the  ton,  and  it  cost  about  f.*{.((0  jter  ton, 
20  limber  measurement. 

Q. — And  here  it  would  cost  you  about  double  that?  A. — 
Here  we  buy  it  by  the  thousand. 

Mr.  I>ickius(m: — .\re  you  sis-akinj;  of  '2ii  years  ajio  when 
you  ivfer  to  this  nuitt»'r?  A. — I  am  spi'akiu);  of  when  I  lived 
there,  and  I  know  nothing;  aliout  it  since. 

Ily  Mr.  Peters.     (J. — You  know  this.   Mr.   Smith,   that  at 
the  present  tiiue  you  can  buy  these     schooners     cheaper  in 
Xova  Scotia  than  v«»u  can  here;  is  not  that  a  fact?    A. — Yes, 
30  Sir. 

ii. — And  that  as  a  fact  in  1SS(!  and  1S^7  this  was  also  the 
ciise?    A. — Yes,  so  far  as  I  know. 

Q. — You  are  aware  of  tlie  fact  that  a  larjre  number  of 
schooners  have  been  imported  from  X<»va  Scolia  here  for  the 
purpose  of  seal  flshiiig?     A. — I   am. 

Q. — Quite  a  large  proportion  of  the  sealing  fi«>et  are  XoAa 
Scotia  vess<'ls.  are  they  n(tt?      A. — Large  pro]i<M'tion. 

Q. — Are  tluM'e  not  American  built  vessels  also  trading  here? 
40   A. — I  think  there  are  some  Americiin  built  vessels. 

Q. — And  SOU!"  also  f re  m  .lii]>au?      A. — Y«'8. 

(i. — Xow.  Mr.  Smith,  I  believe  you  know  a  g(M)d  many  of 
the  vessels  of  the  sealing  Hiet?      A, — I  do. 

Q. — And  amongst  others  you  hav«'  seen  the  "Caroleiia?" 
A. — I  have  seen  the  "('arolensi,''  no  doubt.  I  know  her  by 
name,  but  I  never  had  anything  to  do  on  or  about  the  "Caro- 
leiia;" and  individually,  as  a  vessel,  I  do  not  know  anything 
about  her  iu  detail. 

Q. — Do  you  know  enough  about  her  t<»  valiU'  her?  A. — 
50  \(,t  on  her  particular  mi'rits;  only  so  far  a«  my  knowledge 
goes  (Ui  vessels  geiu-rally. 

Q. — Your  knowledge  of  the  value  of  vessels  has  be«'n  large, 
and  if  a  vessel  (►f  the  size  of  flu'  "Carolena"  was  olTercd  for 
*4,(MI(>  in  18H(i,  what  would  you  say? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — .Vre  you  going  into  this  kind  of  evidence? 

HIr  V.  H.  Tupper: — Certainly;  it  is  perfectly  relevant. 

(To  witness):  I  ask  you  what  was  she  worth  in  ISSO?  A. — 
60   What  was  the  tonnage? 

Q. — The  tcnuage  is  in  dispute.       It  was  about  ;$1  tons. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  do  not  want  to  take  up  any  time,  but 
my  conscience  pricks  me  when  I  hear  incompetent  testimony 
given  ill  without  my  making  objection.  I  have  endeavoured 
t(»  keep  <|iiiet  under  the  )ieciiliar  circumstances  under  which 
this  testinumy  has  bt^-u  given  in.      It  does  seem  to  me  that 


20 


193 

litis  JM  K"'>>K  0  litlh*  Ik-viiikI  wlnit  t-oiild  liy  llio  wHdfHt  stn'trli 
of  iiiiiipiatioii  lit>  «-iill<Hl  rcl<>viinl  Icslinionv.  TIk>  \vitii«>HS 
KfiitcH  liiiiiH<-lf  lliiit  Ih'  knows  iiii(liiii}j;  iilxiiit  the  vjiIik'  of  the 
'•(".irolciiii"  wliatcvcr.  iiiid  would  not  know  licr  b.v  si}ilil  nn- 
IcsK  he  read  Iut  niinic  How  ran  lie  he  i'xaniinc<l  as  to  her 
value? 

Mr.  I't'ti'iH:— Tlu'  witni-ss.  in  tlii'  tliNt  place,  lias  been  in 
conrt  and  lu-aid  tlic  cvidcnct'  pvcn  with  rcspi'cl  to  tiic  "Car 
lo  fdcna"  and  lu'i'  dcHciiption.  (To  wilni>sH|  Von  wt-r.-  [d'csmt 
in  Conrt  licrc  and  licaid  tiic  'Tarolcna"  di'Kciili»'d  lt,v  tin-  dif- 
fiTcnt  wUin-ssrs,  were  vou  not?  A. — Yrs.  I  have  licard  the 
vv\dvnvv. 

Sir.  DifkiiiHon: — Then  wi-  art-  cntitU'd  lo  liavo  tin-  liypotlu' 
liis  put  tu  tlic  witncsH. 

(F<].\aniination  continncd  h,v  Mr.  I'cttrs): 

(i. — Fiom  vour  knctwlcdp'  of  the  valncs  of  vi'sscis  alxint 
1SS(>  in  lliis  I'onntry.  and  taking  a  vessel  of  about  .'{0  Inns, 
of  tlie  desei'iption  yon  have  heard  liere  of  tlie  "Candena"  from 
Afr.  Itobinson  and  other  witnesses  about  wliat  she  would 
lie  w<n-th  if  sold  at  that  time? 

The  (Commissioner  on  I  lie  jiart  of  Iler  Majesty: — A  number 
of  other  things  would  enter  into  the  coinjinlution. 

Mr.  ret ers: — Certainly. 

The  Ctimmissioiier  on  the  part  of  Iler  Majesty: — And  (hes«' 

matters  should  be  in  the  mind  of  the  witness. 
30 

Mr.  Peters:— Certainly. 

(My  Mr.  Peters): 

(To  witiu'ss):  ii. — Ytm'have  heard  the  vt-ssel  deseribed  as 
bein};  repaired  in   1SS4?       A. — Yes. 

(2. — Vou  heard  that  described  by  Mr.  Ktibinson,  a  witness 
here?     .\ — Yes. 

Q. — llavinj;  heard  that,  and  assuming  the  "Carolena"  to 
be  somewhere  about  '-W  tons.  I  ask  you  if  she  w<'re  olTeivd  for 
40  sale  in  ISStt  foi'  a  sealinj;  vc.>-pel.  in  your  opinion  what  would 
she  have  broufjht? 

The  CommiHsioner  on  the  |»art  of  Her  Majesty: — Assiimin;>: 
Mr.  I{obinson'.s  testimony  to  be  correct 

Mr.  Peters: — Certainly. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Iler  .M;ijrsly:— I  think 
you  should  put  that  in  the  i|ueslitMi. 

*l. — Well,  yon  have  heard  Mr.  Itobinson's  evidence  as  to 
the  ;ien<'ral  condilion  the  vessel  was  in.  aixl  can  you  state 
from  that,  assnniinji  it  was  correct,  what  her  valiu'  was? 
.\. —  I  have  not  heard  from  the  evidence  yet  whether  she  was 
a  metal-fastened  vessel. 

The  Commissioner  on  (he  part  of  the  riiiled  Slates: — Mr. 
Peters,  do  you  think  you  can  fjjain  aiiythiiifj:  by  ttivin}i;  evi 
deuce  of  this  kind?  Ho  you  think  it  will  impress  the  Com 
missioners  at  all.  even  if  you  fj;et  it? 

Mr.  Peters: — I  hope  it  will  have  Kime  elTcct.  your  IbuKnir. 
Here  is  a  man  ennaned  .'{ri  years  in  this  particular  business, 
a  man  of  lar(;e  experience,  and  I  <lo  not  think  I  could  g<'t 
mucli  better  cvidcnc*'. 

The  Coinmissiciner  on  the  part  of  the  I'liited  Htatew: — 
There  is  no  unestion  about  his  competency  if  li«'  saw  this  ves- 
sel. If  you  put  a  hypolhelical  i|ueslion  like  that,  ynu  mip;ht 
>lo  as  II  friend  of  mine  did,  sit  up  all  night  to  form  a  hypt>thet- 

13 


li  ;t 


50 


60 


'I«f 


1 1 


I  ' 


194 

iral  <|iii'Mti4)n,  and  then  liav(>  it  rultMl  oat  of  foiirt  tlic  flrHt 
tliintr  in  tli<>  ni<»rninK-  Tin*  witncHH  at  on«-t>  miggeHtH  (lie  dif- 
HiMilt.v  bv  liiH  an8w«T. 

Mr.  IVtt'i'K: — I  li«v«'  now  tlu'  artuiil  m« nsnri'nipnts  of  Mr. 
Walli«'r'H  Hurv«',v.  made  on  the  lOtli  day  of  April,  1HS4  It 
waH  niiHiaid  wlien  Mr.  Wall^cr  wan  under  examination. 

(To  wilneHs):  Q. — Take  the  comnninication  of  Mr.  Wallier'H 
(■erti(l«-ate  of  HUKvey  now  in  yonr  IuuhIh,  and  aHNumiuK  it  to 
10  l>e  a  corn'ct  certificate  of  her  nieaKUi-ement,  wlmt  wnnhl  you 
Hay  aH  to  her  value  at  that  time? 

The  ComniiHHioner  on  the  jiart  of  the  United  States: — Does 
that  state  her  ajje  and  the  fact  that  she  was  rejjaired  in  1884? 

Mr.  Peters : — That  is  stated  «m  tlie  certificate,  I  understand. 

The  Witness: — 1  nm  not  able  to  ^ive  the  value  of  ihat  ves- 
sel of  my  own  knowledge.       I  cannttt  by  any  means  make  it 
out  even  satisfa<"tory  to  myself.      I  never  saw  her,  but  I  ima};- 
20  ine  the  ve8s«'l  would  be  worth  about  |:{,li(K)  or  f.'{,7(M(,  or  sonie- 
thint;  about  that. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  T'nited  States: — What 
is  that  jmper,  Mr.  Peters? 

Mr.  Peters: — When  this  vessel  was  lent^thened  it  was  sup- 
posed to  change  her  tonnn^^e.  There  was  then  a  survey  made 
to  have  a  i»roper  entry  made  in  the  registry  of  the  shiji. 
When  this  re-measurement  was  made  it  was  found  that  .here 
must  have  been  some  error  in  her  orijjinal  measuremenrs.  I 
30  do  not  know  how  it  occurred.  Tliis  certificate  of  Mr.  Walk 
er's  was  fil«'d  in  tlie  Customs  Hous<'.  This  is  the  survey  on 
which  it  was  intended  to  base  the  corre«*tion  on  the  register. 
This  is  the  origiHal  document  whicli  was  filed  there. 

The  Commissioner  on  tlie  jiart  of  Her  Majesty: — Did  you 
get  it  from  the  custom  house? 

Mr.  Hodwell: — It  comes  from  the  collector's  otflce  here,  and 
by  reason  of  the  fac  t  that  her  m«'asurement  was  not  increased 
.Q   no  change  was  made  in  tlu*  registry. 

The  Commissioner  <m  the  part  of  tlie  I'liited  States: — Will 
you  ]>lcase  read  tlie  h'ngtli,  breadth,  depth,  tonnage  and  agi- 
of  the  "Carolcna,"  as  sluiwn  *ni  that  pajier? 

Mr.  I'et<iw: — She  is  described  here  as  the  schooner  Caro- 
lena.  a  Pi-itish  sailing  vessel,  rebuilt  in  18S4  at  Victoria,  H.C. 

The  Comiiiissioner  on  the  pint  of  the  I'niti  d  Slates: — Does 
it  state  where  she  was  built?       A. — It  do«'s  not  state  where 

50  she  was  built.  It  gives  John  .T.  Hob'nson,  of  V.'ctoria,  as 
llie  rebiiilder.  Tlieii  gives  the  iiumlier  of  masts  and  how 
slie  is  ligtted;  one  cabin,  deck,  two  masts,  schooner,  stem 
illiptic,  framework  wood,  length  oS  8-1(1  feet,  breadth  Hi  5-10 
feet,  deptli  !t  ;"»  10  feet;  itartiiiihirs  of  tonnage:  gross  tonnag(>, 
i;(i;  poop  or  cabin,  l.;{tJ;  total,  27.:{(;.  Mr.  Walker  then  certi- 
lies  to  these  and  states  (hat  (he  schooner  is  pro])erly  marked, 
the  jdace  where  she  is  registered  mirked  p'aiiily  on  her  stern, 
and  tliiit  everything  is  in  accordance  with  ilie  .Merchants 
Shijiping  Act.       .\niiex<'d  to  that  document  are  the  figures 

y-      upuii  which  the  measurements  are  made  up. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  tlii>  Fnited  States: — Does 
vour  (|uestion  to  the  witness  fairly  state  the  case?  Does 
'oiir  ((uestion  state  that  she  was  relmilt  lier«'  and  built  in  the 
Territory  of  Washington  as  long  .-is  2(»  or  27  years  ago? 
Should  not  those  go  in  to  a  hypotheticiil  ipiestion  to  the  wit- 
ness? 


'95 

Mr.  I'dt'i-H: — 1  iiiMli'i-Htootl  Ihiit  (lie  dtih'  of  Iwr  biiildiii);  wiih 
III  tin*  ci'HIflriili'.  >V«'  fdiitt'iiil  (liiit  hIic  wiih  pi-ai-tinill.v  im'- 
hiiilt  in  1SS4,  practiciill.v  making;  Iut  a  iii'w  Kliip. 

Till'  ('(HiiiiiiHKioiicr  on  the  part  of  the  Tniti'd  Stati'M: — 1  mil 
your  attention  to  tluw  facts  ho  that  .von  will  lie  able  to  jiidp- 
whether  ,voiir  exainiiiation  so  far  will  have  aii.v  wei};lil  on 
the  iiiindH  of  the  Court. 

Mr.  I'elerH: — It  Is  open  to  that  remark.      (To  the  witniss): 
10  (^. — You  have  no  interent,  I  believe,  in  these  elainiH?    A. — 
No. 

Tlie  further  exaniinalioii  of  the  witneHs  wan  postponed. 

The  ('oniniisHioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — \t 
Iudf,'e  Kinn'w  re(|uest  I  will  state  on  behalf  of  the  Coin- 
missioners  that  we  will  sit  td-inorrow  until  1  oVIoek,  and  not 
resume  in  the  afternoon.  This  will  f,'ive  the  clerks  an  (>p]»or- 
tuiiity  of  clearin}j  ujt  the  work. 

20       The  Cunimissionei-B  then  rose. 


'liytli 


30 


CommissionerB  nnder  the  Convention  of  February  8,  1896,  between 
Oreat  Britain  and  the  United  States  of  America. 

Chambers  of  the  Legislative  Assembly, 

At  Victoria,  December  5,  1896. 

At  10:;{0  a.  in.,  tin?  Commisionors  took  their  seats. 
The  examination  of  the  witniss  Samuel   McCullougli  Sniitli 
was  resumed. 

Mr.  Dickinson  declared  that  he  had  no  cross-examination 
to  make. 


40 


The  examination  of  the  witness  closed. 

Mr.  Peters: — A  few  da.vs  ago  Mr.  Mniisi<>  was  cross-ex- 
amined by  Mr.  Dickinson,  and  in  the  course  of  his  cross- 
examination  Mr.  Dickinson  asked  him  with  regard  to  the 
original  articles  of  ]iarfnershi]»  lietween  Mr.  ('arin>  and  Mr. 
.Mniisi(>.  We  have  found  the  articles  of  )>artners]iip,  and  1  now 
liaiid  them  to  my  learned  friend  for  his  examination.  Mr. 
Miinsie  is  here,  if  Mr.  Dickinson  wants  to  ask  him  about 
Ihem. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  do  not  think  I  nsk(>d  the  witnes  about 
5°  that.       I  gave  you  u  notice  and  you  thought  you  did  not 
have  tliem. 

Mr.  Peters: — That  was  a  written  notiei'  that  my  h-arned 
friend  gitve  me;  and  I  answered  that  I  thought  it  was  in  Mr. 
Munsie's  iiossession.  Hut  in  the  course  of  examination  he 
was  asked  with  regard  to  the  articles  of  partnership. 


6o 


Mr.  Dickinson: — Not  by  me. 

Mr.  JMers: — If  yoii  do  not  want  them  it  is  all  right. 


!'> 


Orlando  Warner,  of  the  city  of  Victoria,  a.  witiK'ss    pro- 
duced OH  behalf  of  ller  >Ia,ji'8ty,  was  duly  sworn. 


ly6 


V 


;1 


20 


30 


40 


so 


60 


Exaiiiini'd  It.v  Mr.  P«'t«'r8: 

Q. — Mr.  Wurtier,  wUI  you  tell  luo  wht-ro  joii  rt'slde?  A. — 
In  Vifturitt. 

Q. — How  long  hnv<'  .von  Ikh-ii  In  NMctoria?      A. — 2ri  vt-ara. 

(i. — What  is  ,voiir  occupation?      A. — Hliipwripht. 

Q. — How  lonjj  havt'  you  bi'i-n  in  that  buHincas"  A.-  ;U 
y»'ar8  or  '>i'2  ywu-B. 

y. — Wlu'rt'  did  you  ln-jjin  that  buaincHH?  A. — In  Pug- 
wasli,  Cuinbcrland  i-oiinty.  Nova  Scotia. 

Q. — Were  you  «>nip]oy«>d  ns  a  niaatcr  builder  tliciv?  A. — 
Xo,  I  wa»  a  journeyman. 

Q. — After  you  left  Nova  Scotia  did  you  foiiu'  directly 
here?      A. — Xt),  Hir.  I  stopped  in  Hau  F'ranciHco  one  year. 

Q — Did  you  follow  the  HhipwriRlit  buHines.>  tlure'  .\. — 
No,  sir,  I  !uid  nothinj;  to  do  with  it  there 

Q. — You  came  to  Victoria  some  25  vears  -lij.)  I  think?    .\. 

Ves. 

Q. — Since  that  tinu>  have  you  been  occupied  In  the  ship- 
wright business?  A. — More  or  less,  whenever  there  was  any- 
thing In  the  town  to  do  in  that  business. 

Q. — WiTe  you  connected  with  Mr.  Smith  who  pave  evi- 
dence here  yesterday.  A. — We  were  jtartners  in  the  Star 
sliipyard. 

<i. — You  owned  a  sliii»yard  called  tlie  Star  Shijiyard, 
and  you  were  partners  In  that  business?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — For  how  long?  A. — We  were  partners  for  four  years 
about. 

Q. — Did  you  own  other  ship  yards  besides  that  one?  A. 
— Only  that  one. 

Q. — During  your  experience  as  a  shipwright,  have  you 
worked  in  connection  witli  the  building  or  repairing  of  many 
sealing  vessels?  A. — I  have  worked  In  the  construction  of 
three. 

Q. — .lust  name  them,  please.  A. — There  Is  the  "Charlotte 
Cox,"  the  "Diana,"  and  the  "Dolphin." 

Q. — You  were  w<»rking  on  the  construction  of  the  "Char- 
lotte Cox?"      A. — I  was  the  contractor  for  her. 

if. — You  were  the  contractor  for  the  building  of  tlie  "Di- 
ana?"      A. — Yes,  T  laid  tln'  contract. 

Q.— When  did  you  build  iier?  A.— In  the  sjtrlng  of  1801. 
I  think  it  was  in  Feb.,  ISiU,  If  I  remember  right. 

Q. — What  tonnag«>s  was  she?  A. — She  was  S.l  tons,  I  be- 
lieve. 

Q. — And  you  had  the  contract  for  d<»lng  what  on  her?  A. 
— I  had  the  contiact  of  the  hull  and  spars,  without  doing  any 
of  the  cabin  work  or  tlie  forecastle;  and  I  had  to  furnish  no 
steering  gear.  I  furnished  her  with  one  top  mast,  but  not 
ti  fore-to))  mast.  The  main  top  mast  I  had  to  furnish,  and 
I  laid  tlie  sjtars  alouizside  lier  alloat  in  tlie  harbor. 

a. — That  is.  you  liad  not  to  pl:ice  tlie  spars?      A. — Xo.  sir. 

Q.— What  was  the  price  for  that  work?  A.— I  to«tk  the 
contract  at  l.'i.rtfM),  a  luiii])  sum. 

Q. — Was  that  a  good  contract  or  a  bad  contract?  A. — 
Well,  it  was  nothing  to  brag  of.      T  made  nothing  on  it. 

(i. — Tlie  whole  of  the  fiiiishiiig  had  to  be  done  afterwards? 
A. — It  was  done  afterwards  by  the  owners. 

Q. — Her  sails  and  ligglng  and  everything  «'lse  <'onipl«'te? 
.\. —  I  did  not  furnish  any  sails  or  rigging  of  ai'v  description. 
It  is  generally  termed  hull  and  s])ars,  with  tli's  little  s|M>cial 
(irovision  that  the  owners  thought  they  woul  i  get  some  n«'w 
itrranu;eiuent  foi'  a  steering  gear,  and  It  was  h'ft  for  them  to 
jirovlde. 

Q. — I  need  iLirdly  ask  you  whether  the  additional  wcu'k 
that  had  to  be  done  I0  that  ship  Iwfore  she  would  be  tit  to  go 
to  sea  would  cost  a  coiisiderahle  sum?  .\. — My  impres- 
sion is  that  it  would  cost  c(Misiderable. 


lO 


•97 

Q. — ran  y«)ii  Kivf  in*-  nii  Ulva  of  whul  il  wouhl  i-imt,  foiiipiir- 
\n^i  it  with  the  i-imt  of  tin*  worlv  ,vou  «!i<l?  A. — Ah  I  li)iv<>  lift>n 
ii8f«i  tu  tlKuriiij;  on  vchmcIh,  W(>  cnll  (lie  hull  and  hiuii-h,  two- 
Ihii'dH  alxnit  «if  tlic  cont  «tf  a  vt'Hwl  n-ady  for  H«'a.  not  titl«Ml 
out  for  till'  Hfalin^  biiMinc'HH,  hut  fur  ordinary  iiurpoHeH. 

(^. — And  tliat  wan  in  what  yi-ar?  A. — Tliat  wan  iu  tin-  win- 
lt>r  of  ISiHI  and  tlic  HjtrinK  of  IHJM. 

(j. — I  am  not  K^in^  to  nnk  you  »»  to  tlie  "Dolphin"  bi't-auw' 
Hilt'  Ih  in  diHputc  h«M-t>;  but  It't  nu>  ack  you:  IHd  you  know  tht* 
"Caroli'ua"?     A. — Vi'h,  »ir. 

Q. — Did  you  »'v«'r  do  any  w«»rk  on  tlw  "Carolina"?  A. — I 
did  a  lit t If! 

il. — Do  you  rcnit'Uibcr  what  tinic  it  wan  wlnn  you  did  that 
work?  A. — I  do  not  Hay  anytiiinK  with  ropird  to  (he  "far- 
olcna, '  in  Ih  ho  lon^;  ago. 

(i. — <;an  you  t«'ll  nic  who  wan  tlu'  owner  of  tin-  "tJar- 
olcna"  tln'n?  A. — I  cannot  nwear  to  it,  but  my  in>pr«'HHion  in 
tliat  hIu'  wan  owned  by  the  I'ilot  Hoard  at  (hi>  tim«>. 

(j. — Wan  that  the  name  otcaHion    that    Mr.    Kmith    npoke 
20  about?    Were  you  with  Mr.  Smith  when  that  work  wan  done? 
.\. — No.     I     wan    <m  my  own  account  at  the  time,  working 
around  aH  a  journeyman. 

(i. — Had  you  neen  the  "Cnrolena"  in  1S8I{  or  alxmt  that 
time?  A. — I  have  no  dire<'t  re<*olle«'tion  of  having  wen  her 
in  ISSC).  I  have  H«'(>n  the  veHsel  otf  and  on,  with  the  otliern  an 
they  come  and  go;  but  I  would  not  Hwear  to  particular  daten 
an  to  jUHt  wlien  I  naw  her. 

(i. — Do  you    know  an  a   matter  of  fact   about   her  being 
lengthened  at  one  time?     A. — i  knew  that  nhe  wnH  hauled  out 
30  and  lengthened. 

Q. — Did  you  ha]tpen  to  nee  her  when  hIw  wan  being  length- 
ened? I  have  no  recollection.  I  wan  not  working  on  her,  and 
conwMiuently  did  not  go  near  her  to  my  knowledge. 

H. — Did  you  He«'  her  after  she  had  been  lengthened?  A.— • 
Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Do  you  know  enough  about  her  to  be  able  to  giv«'  an 
idea  of  what  hIu'  was  worth?  A. — I  c(tuld'giye  what  my  own 
idea  is  of  what  I  would  be  willing  to  i>roduce  her  for. 

{}. — What  would  you  say  she  would  be  worth  after  she  was 
40  lengthened?    A. — From  what  I  know  of  the  "('aroleiia"  after 
she  was  lengthened  I  would  not  undertake  to  construct  her 
hull  and  spars — 

The  (Commissioner  on  ilie  part  of  the  United  States: — 
Please  answer  the  (juestion,  witness. 

Ity  Mr.  I'eters: — Q. — What  do  you  think  she  was  worth 
llien?     .\. — Am  I  to  understand,  with  her  ready  for  sea? 

Q. — Yes.  A. —  The  vessel  would  be  worth  in  my  «'stimation 
Sf:{.S(M»  or  f4.(MM>.  just  about  there. 

i}. — Mow  was  she  with  regard  to  sailing?  A. — I  under- 
stood her  to  be  a  very  fair  sailer. 

ti. — You  do  not  jtretend  to  sjx  ak  anything  about  the  scal- 
ing outfit?     A. — No,  sir. 

Q.^You  spoke  of  another  vessel  beside  tlie  "Chiirbitte 
Cox"?    A.— Yes.  the  "Diana." 

(i. — Was  she  a  sealer?      A. — Yi'S. 

(i. — \Vhat  tonnage  was  she?  A. — I  think  her  tonnage  was 
about  ;".'{  tons  or  r»(!  tons,  stuiu'where  around  there,  but  I  am 
C^Q  not  positive  as  to  her  tonnage. 

Q. — Wliat  did  you  have  to  do  with  her?  A. — I  was  one  of 
the  ])aHies  in  the  contiact  on  her. 

Q.  — ^VIlen  was  that,  or  about  when?  A. — That  would  b<" 
about  1SS<>  or  lHi>0.     Mv  imjiression  is    we   launched    her   in 

isno. 

Q. — Did    you     have  any  interest  in  that  ship?     \. — None 
whatever  than  working  on  her. 
Q— Who  did  vou  build  her  for?     A.— Oco.  Collins. 


50 


m 

ml 

if 

[  I 


h- 


I9S 


.1 


f  I :  M 


A. — Tlip  confrnrt  for  her 
tlii>  HiiilM  or  i-iK^iiiK  on 
A.— Nollilnji. 


Q. — You  IiimI  u  rout  met   to  biiiUl  lu-i?     A. — W't'  had  to  a 

(M'l'tHill  fXl«'llt. 

Q.— Wliat  part  of  licr  ilitl  .von  liavo  to  do  witli?  A.— \\V 
fonHtrnctfd  tlif  linll  and  fmniNlit'd  tho  HpnrH,  with  tin'  cxcfp- 
tion  that  w«'  furniMlu'tl  no  iron  worlv  for  tlu>  v«'hwI,  or  did  non»> 
of  tlu'  d«'cli  ftirniHiiinKH,  such  an  jjalh-.v,  caltin,  or  fori>»'aHth>, 
or  an.v  of  tlic  interior  arnint{<'Ui«'HtM.  Wliat  I  nMMin  hy  tlu- 
Iron  worli.  iH  tin-  iron  work  rtMinirt'd  for  tin*  rif^^fint;.  an<l 
i-liain  titshlH  and  surli  thin^r^  uh  <-oiik*  from  a  blackHuiith 
10  Hh(»p. 

Q. — What  waH  tin*  contra«'t  for? 
wa8  $2.H(it». 

ii. — Yon  laid  nothing;  to  do  with 
her?     A. — Nono  wluiti'vcr. 

Q. — Nor  tlic  ancliorK  nor  clialuH? 

<j. — Yon  liad  notliin^  tti  do  with  tlii>  liniHJdny:  in^iidf? 
Nothing;  whatever. 

(i.— Yon  scaled  licr?  A.— t'crtainly,  wc  flniHlicd  the  hull. 
W'f  iteah'd  the  vcshcI,  and  weifjlit«'d  the  dc(ks. 
20  i}. — Mow  was  it  witii  regard  to  the  l>nildint;  of  ships  in 
1H!K>  compared  with  say  from  IHHi  to  1S8(i?  Was  it  less  ex- 
pensive or  more  expensive?  A. — Well,  r..y  impression  is  that 
there  would  lie  about  a  par.  If  anythinu  I  think  that  in  18H4, 
lSS,"i  and  ISSCi  things  were  a  little  more  expensive,  bnt  never 
haviuir  built  any  in  that  time  I  cannot  tell. 

Q. — Of  what  material  were  you  in  the  habit  of  buildin}; 
these  vf'ssels?     A. — Hard  l>ou;,das  fir. 

H. — Is  that  considered  to  be  a  good  material?     A. — Oood 
material. 
30       (2. — Could  you  in  this  part  of  the  c(mntry  get  any  better? 
A. — I  know  of  no  lietter  without  it  would  be  yellow  cedar; 
but  it  is  a  very  scarce    timber,  and  not  generally  used. 

Q. — Is  yellow  cedar  more  expensive?  A. — It  is  more  ex- 
pensive. 

(^--^ra<■tica^y  spe:iking,  is  it  obtainable  in  large  (|uan- 
tities?  A. — Well,  I  am  not  prepared  to  judge  of  that  as  it 
comes  from  the  northern  ])orti<ui  of  the  eountiy,  and  I  n«'ver 
travelled  through  it  (>nongh  to  know.  -Ml  I  know  is  that 
there  was  one  vessel  built  nearly  chiefly  of  it  up  at  Port  Es- 
40  singttui.  I  hav«'  never  see  any  large  (]uautitii*s  of  it  brought 
to  this  market. 

Q. — What  do  y«ni  nuike  tlu'  stem,  stern-posts,  and  things  of 
that  description  out  of?  A. — It  is  usual,  if  you  can  get  a  good 
fir  crook  to  make  the  stem.  The  stern  j)Ost  and  rudder  stick 
are  generally  of  oak. 

ii. — Do  you  know  anything  of  what  you  call  Oregon  pine? 
A. — I  have  seen  some  <tf  it,  sir. 

Q. — How  does  Oregon  I'iiu'  compare  with  Doughis  fir?  A. — 
1  would  consider  them  on  a  par. 
50       Q. — Are  tlu'v  or  are  they  not  a  different  class  of  wood?     A. 
— My  iinjtression  has  always  been  that  they  are  of  the  same 
character  of  timber. 

With  regard  to  the  amount  you  have  to  pay  workmen  in 
building  tiu>se  vessels,  what  is  the  usual  wages  y«ni  give  a 
g<»od  ordinary  ship  caritentt-r?  A. — I  pay  |4  a  day  for  new 
v,'ork,  and  ffi  on  old. 

Q. — Is  that  tlu>  usual  price,  or  is  it  unusual?  A. — That  was 
the  usual  flgun'  of  the  jiort. 

Q. — At  the  present  time,  is  the  cost  of  building  a  schooner 

Co   li(>re  greater  or  less  than  it  was,  say  in  ISSO,  has  the  price 

decreased  or  in<reased?      A. — It  has  decnased.       You  could 

build  ii  vessel  to-day  much  cheaper  than  you  could  in  IS'.H, 

even. 

Q. — What  is  the  reason  for  that?  A. — My  idea  of  the  rea- 
son of  it  is  the  increased  depression  of  times  generally. 

Q. — Without  going  into  a  generality  of  tliat  descri]>ti<m, 
fake  tlu'  matter  of  lumber,  and  tell  me  if  lumber  is  cheaper 
or  dearer  now?     A. — Cheaper. 


t. 


'99 


lo 


Q. — Ih  i(  iioliiltl.v  vlit'tilM-r?  A. — Notably  ho,  1  conHulcr  it 
111  |M'r  (M-nt.  lit  all  «'V<'iitM  rhcaiM-r. 

(^— AimI  till'  iron  that  von  have  to  iihc — takf  tlii>  it«-iii  of 
s|iik«'H,  for  iiiHfaiicc,  arc  tli«'.v  dcafoi-  or  i-lu-apcr  now?  A. — I 
rtiiiiiot  Ma.v  tlial  tli«'i'«-  Ih  an.v  inatiTial  <litTiM-«'nc4-  in  tlif  Kiilvan- 
i/,*Mi  H|iil<i-H;  tlif.v  4-liai-f;('  about  f7  a  kva  for  tlu'in  t-vcr  Hinn*  I 
tiiii  n'liifinbt'r. 

(J. —  Iron  worli  Ih  ncn»'i-all.v  cluaiKT  now?  A. — Itlark- 
Hiiiitli  X  work  cannot  be  4ion«>  for  Icmm.  and  an.vthinK  that  Iuin 
liilior  Mttaclicd  to  il. 

(2. — For  wvcral  rcaHonH,  whatever  tln',v  niav  lie,  yon  can 
biiihl  dieapcr  now  than  .von  coiihl  in  ISSII?  A. — C'onHiilcr- 
■tltlv  so.  There  iH  a  liill  of  Innilier  for  1S91  for  :2.I(IH(  feet 
Hi  t2-2.7{\,  and  I  conid  jjet  it  to  da.v  for  |15. 


20 


.30 


40 


5° 


Go 


(.'roHHcxainination  liy  Mr.  l*lckin8on: 


A.— I  did  not  bnild 


Q.— What  Mhip  did  yon  bnild  in  1880? 
any. 

ii.—ln  1884?     A.— None. 

(i.— In  18H5?    A.— None. 

(i.— In  18S7?     A.— Non«'. 

(2.— In  1888?     A.— None. 

(^._\Vliat  Hhiim  did  yon  aid  In  building  in  1884,  18s5.  1880. 
1.S87  and  1888?     A. — In  the  conMtriictioii? 

(2.— Yes.  A.— I  think  tlie  "Dolidiin"  waH  linilt  then,  bat  I 
do  not  recollect  the  building  of  lier  as  to  the  date. 

(i.— Only  tlie  "Dolpliin"?  A.— I  do  not  recollect  for  cer- 
tain if  sli«'  was  built  in  these  .rears  or  not. 

ti. — Von  took  part  in  building  lier?     A. — Y»  8. 

t^. — Is  the  "Dolphin"  the  only  ship — if  she  was  bnilt  in 
lliese  y«'ars,  wliich  I  believe  she  was  not — Did  .v<hi  build  any 
ships  except  the  "Dolphin,"  or  take  jmrt  in  the  building  of  any 
sliips  in  1884,  1885,  1880,  18.s7  or  1888?  A.— None  of  a  seal- 
ing character. 

Q. — Then  your  coniparison.s  have  been  made  on  the  dllTer- 
ciice  between  prices  in  18!M(  and  1801,  and  prices  at  the  pres- 
(  time,  liave  they  not?  A. — To  a  certain  extent,  and  al;-o 
of  my  knowledge  of  tlu'  wages  that  existed  jtrior  to  then. 

(}. — Did  ,vou  know  anything  about  the  wages  for  building 
vesH«'ls  in  1880?  A. — Our  wages  were  always  the  standard  of 
*.")  on  old  work  and  #4  on  new. 

Q. — They  are  now,  are  tlie.v  not?     A. — They  are  not  now. 

Q. — What  are  they  now?  A. — The  wages  of  the  jiort  to- 
day is  ?.^..W  on  new  work,  and  ffi  on  old. 

(J. — Has  that  come  about  since  tlie  depression  .von  have  re 
fcrrtd  to?    A.— It  lias. 

(J.— What  were  the  wages  in  1800  and  1801?  A.— Tho 
wages  in  18!Mt  and  1801  were  ffA  and  ?r. 

Q.-  Tliey  had  not  clmnged  tin  n  since  1880?     A.— No,  sir. 

Q. — .\iid  the  material  lins  clieajioned  since  the  depression 
<aine  on?    A. Yes,  sir. 

il. — When  did  the  depression  come  on  in  .vour  view?  A. — 
Wlien  I  sjieak  of  the  dejiression  of  business  I  speak  of  it  as 
lielonging  to  ni.v  own  craft,  and  I  wish  that  to  be  underixtoiid. 
Well.  th<>  depression  stru«'k  ns  about  four  years  ago. 

Q. — About  the  time  it  strnck  the  rest  of  ns  in  other  (-rafts, 
probably?     A. — Very  likely. 

Q. — Let  us  see.  Were  .von  ever  on  the  "Carolena"?  A. — I 
liave  been  on  board  her. 

Q. — Except  this  time  wlien  you  repaired  her?  .\. — On  and 
<ifl',  but  I  do  not  recollect  any  ])articular  circunlstanc(^ 

Q. — You  do  not  recoll«M't  any  particular  tiin*'  v  ••  you 
were  on  board  her?     A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Hut  yon  have  been  on  her  more  or  less?  A. — Yes,  off 
and  on. 

Q.— Now,  when  .von  put  l-.er  price  at  |!3,«^01>,  or  f4,000,  are 
.vou  thinking  of  what  it  would  tost  to  build  her?  A. — Tha* 
is  my  idea,  .res,  sir. 


IP 'til 


i 


300 


111    '  ! 


20 


30 


40 


60 


Q.— T»  build  lur  ui'W?      A.— Yt'ii,  ttli'. 

(j. — Aim!  ,voii  Idim-  .vniir  tNliiniilt'  mi  lliiil?      A.— Vt'H. 

(i. — Ami  to  iMiiltl  Imt  rit^lit  now?      A. —  Vi'H. 

ij.— Now,  voii  liiiilt  II riuiiiotti'  Tux"  of  x:i  toiiH  III  f'l.niMt 

willi  Ih'I-  h|hii'h  mill  riufjiiiiK''      A. — V«-h,  hIi-. 
H|>iii-H  bill  not  lu'i  ri);Ki>>R- 

(2. — YtMi   fiit-iiiNluMl   tlii>  H|iiirM?       A. — All  but    llic  forclop 

IIIIIMt. 

(j. — And  ,viiii  cHliiiiiilc  tliiil  tliiit  fri.lt'N)  Ih  about  two-tliirdrt 
o  of  tlio  coHt  to  «M|uli)  lit-r  for  wn?     A. — Y«'m,  Hir. 

(^ — Ho  tliiil  VOII  would  liiivi'  to  tidd  to  tin-  fri.lilN)  about 
fl.MliO  for  till*  ri'Ht  of  tlif  fi|ui|)!iM-nt?  A. — 1  do  not  wIhIi  to 
bi'  iiilHiindi'rHtood. 

(j. — I  do  not  wIhIi  ,vou  to  bi'  iiiiHiindorHtoud  iibov«>  nil 
tliin^'H.  A. — Will,  in  till'  Tliarlotti-  Cox"  I  trivd  to  H|H-(ifv 
it  in  till-  rontnicl  an  plain  iih  iioHHibli*;  it  wiih  to  i-onipli'ti-  liiill 
and  Hpai'8. 

(i. — Yo,i  Hiiid  tliat  voiir  lonlfact  price  waH  ifri.fiOO  for  what 
VOII  did  on  tlic  "riiarlottc  Cox?"       A. — Yi'H,  Hir. 

Q. — IMd  you  also  Htiitf  that  you  iiHiially  cHliniatcd  tliat 
tliat  would  b«'  two  tliirdH  of  tin-  i-oHt  of  equipping  lii-r  for 
Ki'ii?  A. — Yi'K.  Hir  that  would  be  after  vou  completed  Ihr 
hull. 

Q. — Tlien  what  would  be  your  total  eHtiniate  of  the  cost  of 
e<|ui)ipiii};  the  "Cliiirlotte  Cox"  for  sea?  A. — Are  you  H|N'ak- 
iiiK  of  It  to-day? 

(i. — \o,  no,  wiien  you  built  her.  A. — P.nt  a  burned  child 
dreadH  the  tire. 

Q.— Never  mind  tliat.  Afti-r  you  liiiilt  her  for  fr..(;i>(» 
wliat  is  your  eHtiniat-'  of  the  total  coHt  of  oiiiiippinp  her  for 
Rea?  I  am  not  f^oiup  into  your  ]>riv.  '  liuHineHK,  and  I  don't 
want  you  to.  1  waul  you  to  estini  on  tlie  leHtimony  you 
liave  piven?  .\. — Well.  tal\in^  ni\  ihI  contract  at  fn.liOO, 
yii.iSIHI  would  be  the  next  add*-d,  thai  would  be  another  one- 
third. 

Q. — You  are  a  Hhipwrijjht  and  not  a  mathematician,  and  I 
tliiiik  that  we  can  tlKiire  that  out  for  oiirHelven.  Now,  wiih 
that  aliout  tlK<  Haino  lliintr  in  repird  to  the  "Diana,"  did  yon 
do  her  in  about  the  Mami'  way?      A. — No,  tdr. 

Q. — What  did  you  put  on  llie  "Charlotte  Cox"  that  you  did 
not  put  on  tlie  "iHana?"  .\. —  I  fiirniHiied  the  iron  work 
i'Xcejit  her  Hteerlnp  ffi'iW. 

Q. — And  what  was  that  added  to  cost?  .\. — It  would  be 
in  the  nei);hbur]iood  on  the  "Diana"  of  f2.^0. 

(i. — More.       A. — Yoh,  hIi". 

Q. — That  in  what  you  did  not  furniwli?  A. — Ycb.  then 
tlier(>  would  be  fifty  dollarH  for  the  windlaHK  that  we  did  not 
fiirniHh. 

ii. — Wlial  cIhi  ?      A. — IlawHe  pipes. 

Q. — IIow  much  for  that?  A. — I  do  not  want  to  swear 
about  the  .Mbion  Iron  Works  jtrices,  they  po  by  weiglits,  one 
set  of  hawue  pipes  will  perhaps  wei<{h  more  than  anotlier  and 
cost  more,  and  I  would  not  like  to  lie  positiv  or  swear  to 
what   the  hawsi'  jiipes  would  cost. 

Q. — Well,  give  us  a  maximum  and  a  minin-nim  jirice?  A. 
— I  would  judge  it  would  be  in  the  neighborhood  of  ftlO  or 
fin 

Q. — That  would  not  hurl  us.  What  else  was  there  on  the 
"Diana"  that  you  did  not  furnish.  A. — \Ye  did  not  furnish 
her  copper  fastenings. 

Q. — AVas  she  Kiibseiiuenlly  copper  fastened.  A. — She  was 
copper  fastened  befoi'<>  she  was  launched. 

Q. — What  was  the  cost  of  that?  A. — The  copper  was 
furnished  and  cost   the  owner,   I  believe,  flOO. 

Q. — Was  there  soinelhing  els*'  that  you  did  not  furnish  to 
equip  her  for  sea?  A.— We  did  not  furnish  her  in  cabin, 
forecasfle  or  galley. 


50 


20I 


"•!h 


Q.-  Dili  you  riirniHli  tlif  roiii|Miiiinn  viny  to  k<>  Ut  tlu>  eiibin? 
A.— No,  Hlr. 

(i.— ThiiJ  IiimI  Io  Im"  nil  in  Imt  (leek?      A.— No. 

(J.— IH«I  .vou  Iciivf  II  liol«>  for  it?      A.— <'('Hiiin|y. 

<!.— Wliiit  woiilil  Im'  llic  roirt  of  foiiiplcHiip;  llii'  foiviiiHtl' 
niiil  ciihiii  to  «>i|iii|i  lit'i'  for  wa?  A. — A  p.oil  dciil  of  tliat 
would  iIi'iMMitl  uii  till'  Ht.vli'  tliat  tli«>y  Htti'il  Iwr  up  in. 

(^^\VII,  till'  Htyli'  in  wliicli  ,voii  Iniilt  tli<>  nliip,  if  ,voii  ««'rt> 

to  fiirnlHli  it  .voiirHcIf      A.-  You  want  nii-  to  /,'lv  •' ni.v  ii'i-a 

Io  iiH  to  wliat  it  woiilil  roHt  to  ttniHli  up  licr    rahin,  and  fiii'«> 

raMlIc  and  jtallr.v''      A.— I  would  not  und(>rtak«>  it  foi   K'hh 

than  I5INI  oi  ftllH). 

Q.— You  woiiid  make  money  on  that,  would  you  not?  A. 
—I  niij{ht,  and  I  niijihl  Ret  nip|H'd. 

Q.— You  do  not  nii'iin  to  wiy  that  your  «*<4tiiiiatfH  ar»'  ho 
wide  of  till'  mark  thar  you  i-annot  tell  wlu'thiT  they  are  with- 
in the  lOHt  or  on  the  outside  of  it.  do  you,  in  theVaMe  of  all 
your  ewtimateH''  A.— Tlie  <'Htimnto  on  the  veHwl  at  tlrnt 
coMt  wiiK  Ih*Iow  the  mark. 
20      Q.— Helow  the  mark?      A. — Uiiow  (he  mark. 

Q.— Then  you  are  aeeiiHtomed  to  build  veHHelH  in  that  way, 
you  Itailt  the  "<"ox"  helow  the  mark  and  then  built  the 
"IHana"  Iwlow  the  mark?  A. — There  in  an  ex]danath)n  lliat 
fiin  be  Riven. 

Q. — Never  mind  your  explanation  now. 

Mr.  I'eterH: — 'I he  witnesn  wiMieH  to  i?ive  an  exj.lanaM'iii 

30      Mr.  DiekiuKon: — Yon  can  get  that  explanation  from  him 
when  I  am  through  with  my  examination.      (To  witncHH.) 

(J. — Were  thcue  two  veHHelH  built  below  the  mark?  A. — 
Certain. 

(J. — .\nd  you  Hay  you  jjot  left  both  timew?     A. — Ilotli  tiinen. 

(i. — Did  you  net  left  on  the  "Dolphin"?  A. — I  not  my 
money  every  Saturday  on  ln>r. 

ti. — You  were  doiuR  journeyman'H  work  then?     A. — Yes. 

Q.— The  "Diana"  that  you  liave  teHtitled  to  wan  built  in  the 
40  winter  of  1HS!(  and  1S!)(I?     A. — I  am  H|M>akinK  from  memory, 
and  I  think  that  Ih  tlie  time. 

<j. — That  waH  before  the  depresHion  had  struck  and  when 
you  were  paying  f4  and  f.")  a  day?     A. — It  waB. 

({. — And  that  waH  the  time  the  material  was  nil  up?  A. — 
That  was  the  time. 

(i. -Now,  in  1SS4,  ISS.'i  ami  ISSti  were  there  any  Healinji 
Vi'snelH  built  here?  \. — They  have  be«>n  ko  seatteri  d  through 
that  I  cannot  swear  to  dates  an  to  when  the  vessels  were 
built. 
50  Q. — W«'ll.  before  you  yourself  bepin  to  build  there  was  not 
much  building  of  sealing  vessels  hei-e?  \. — Not  a  ^reat 
deal. 

Q. — They  came  from  Nova  Rcotla  Inrpcly  and  from  San 
Francisco?    A. — J'sually.  yes. 

(i. — ^The  shi]>  chandlery  stores  were  not  equippe<I  with  ma- 
terial to  build?     A. — Tliev  were,  ves,  sir. 

Q.— In  1SX4,  1885,  and  l(8fi?     A.— They  carried  Rood  stock. 

(J. — And  an  abundance  of  it?    A. — All  that  was  required 
as  far  as  my  recollection  Roes. 
fio       Q. — There  was  no  dilflculty  in  Rettinp  all  the  material  you 
needed  in  1884,  1885  and  188(5?     A.— 1  knew  of  none. 

Q. — You  had  no  more  difficulty  then  than  you  did  in  1890 
when  you  built  the  "Diana"?  A. — No  more  difficulty  any 
further  than  that  things  were  a  tritle  higher. 

(i.— When  they  were  a  tritle  hlRher  in  1884.  1885  and  1880. 
did  you  buy  any  for  tliat  purpose?  A. — No,  I  know  no  more 
than  of  the  reports  that  wen*  Riven,  for  as  1  said  I  built  no 
vessels  then. 


!• 


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■  i''V!i: 


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ii 


n 


% 


202 


lO 


20 


30 


i-i. — Yoli  (lid  not  know  iuivlliinf:  about  lli«'  bnildinj;  <  f  lliis 
clasH  of  scalin}'  vt-wsi'ls  iu  tlu'sc  days?  A. — I  knew  notliinjj 
as  to  tlu'ii-  absolute  cost  fiiitiuT  than  tlic  cxin'rit'iiti'  of  work- 
hijt  on  tlic  vessels  would  lead  nu>  to  know. 

i}. — I  think  I  j;ot  an  ausw«'r  to  a  «|uestion  fi'(»ui  you,  that 
in  1S8J.  ISSn  and  1SS((  before  vou  biiill  the  "IMaua'"  in  IKS!) 
oi-  lS!t(l,  four  (U-  I've  years  before  you  built  the  "Diana."  tiie 
jealinj.^  shijis  were  usually  broujiht  heie  from  San  Franciseo 
or  Nova  Seotia.  They  were  built  elsewhere  than  in  NMctorii 
usually,  were  they  not?  A. — It  is  jut-tty  hard  for  me  to  tell 
just  when  the  tirst  vesstd  came  around  here  fr'om  Xova  Scotia, 
whether  it  is  as  far  ba<k  as  ISMtJ  or  not  1  would  not  like  to 
say. 

Q. — Hut  you  were  a  shipwriffht  lu-re  and  knew  what  was 
{{oiufi  on  pntty  well  in  the  business  of  ship  building?  A.— 
A  {jeneral  idea,  yes.  sir. 

H. — There  not  belli}.'  much  buildin;;  fjoinn;  on  of  sealing 
vessels  in  1.SS4.  ISS.T  and  ISStJ.     A.— No.  sir. 

Q. — Where  did  the  sealiu};  vessels  come  from  if  they  were 
not  built  here?  A. — Well,  we  all  know  that  the  majority  of 
them  have  come  from  the  East  and  some  from  San  Fnuicisco. 

Q. — The  market  then  was  of  shijis  that  were  brou}tht  here, 
whatever  market  iliere  was?     A. — The  most  of  it.  y»'s,  sir. 

(}. — ^'ou  were  here  yesterday?     A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q.  — .Vnd  you  lu-ard  the  other  shii»wri}ihts  testify?  A. — 
Yes.  sir. 

Q. — AikI  you  heard  the  testimony  to-day?  A — Yes.  sii'. 
!nost  of  it. 

Q. — And  yen  sal  with  your  fellow  shijtwriijhts  hii-e?  A. — 
I  saT  iil(>n<j:side  of  one  of  them  most  of  the  time,  I  believe. 

(J. — And  you  heard  the  general  run  of  the  t<'stin ony  as  to 
the  "('arolena"  being  worth  from  $:{.S(I(»  to  |!4.(MI0?'  A.— 1 
did. 


50 


tj 


Ue-exaniinati<*n  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q. — You   were  asked   by   Mr.  Dickinson   as  to   whether  in 
18S4.  ISS.'),  1SH(!  and  1SH7  you  had  built  any  sealing  vessels 
and  y(Mi  answered  "no."       During  these  ytars  you  were  em 
4°   ])loyed  in  ship  work?      A. — I  was.  sir. 

Q. — And  on  vessels?     A.— -On  vessels. 

Q. — What  class  of  vessels?  \. — They  would  be  our  gen- 
eral run  of  steamers,  and  as  a  schoonei-  came  along. 

(). — In  these  years  had  you  much  to  do  with  sleauu'rs?  A. 
— Yes.  sir.  more  or  less. 

(J. — So  that  as  a  fact  during  those  years  you  were  working 
it  ships?    A. — ^^'orking  at  my  tr.ide.  yes,  sir. 

{}. — When  you  wei-e  being  examined  by  Mr.  Dickinson  as  to 
the  statement  that  you  had  not  made  iiioney  on  tlu'  eoutiacis 
of  the  "Carlotta  Cox"  and  the  "Diana"  you  said  you  had 
some  explanation  to  give,  would  y(ni  kindly  make  thtit  explan- 
ation? A. — The  explanation  that  1  have  to  give  with  regard 
to  the  "Diana"  being  Imilt  as  chcapir  as  she  was.  was  this: 
We  were  I'unning  a  repairing  yard  at  the  time,  and  had  a  set 
of  ways  in  the  Star  shipyard,  and  w<'  allowed  if  we  took  the 
sclio(iner  while  there  was  nothing  else  going  on.  three  of  us 
being  jtartners.  and  we  had  jdenty  of  time  to  do  it;  we  could 
build  her  c<msiderably  cheaiier  and  it  wcuild  give  tis  an  idea 
and  kee|»  us  employed.  That  was  the  chief  object  of  taking  the 
vessel  at  the  lime  we  did.  When  we  rated  her  as  being  built 
cheaper  than  at  the  regular  wages,  which  was  then  four  dol- 
lars a  day.  we  eonsidei-ed  that  we  could  take  three  dcdiars  a 
day  <uit  of  her  and  build  her  in  (Uir  slack  time,  and  that  it 
would  be  better  foi'  us  to  W(uk  at  home  and  do  it,  thai,  go 
away.  That  was  the  idea  we  totik  to  keej)  our  own  business 
in  onr  own  vard. 


60 


?03 


10 


30 


(2. — Did  (li«'  Idea  turn  (»u<  surcoHHfull.v,  ko  far  aw  the 
iiioiu'.v  part  is  coiuoriicd?  A. — WVII,  I  would  not  try  it 
j:t;ain. 

H, — You  wore  asked  hy  Mr.  Diekinqoii  as  to  wln'tlicr  you 
had  luH'n  licro  yi'stcrday  and  heard  th"  statcnicn*^  of  your 
brother  shipwrijihts.  As  a  nuitler  of  fact,  dul  you  form  the 
opinion  you  have  ni\eii  here  to-day  from  what  you  heard,  or 
on  wliat  you  knew  hef<tre?  A. — N«it  one  word  from 
what  I  lieard.  As  far  as  my  judgment  jjoes  T  do  not  thiidc 
I  was  influeneed  oy  anything  I  heard  yesterday. 

Q. — Your  statement  is  yoJir  own  individual  opinion?  A. 
— My  own  opinion  in  my  own  mind? 

Q. — You  were  asked  whether  a  pood  number  of  these 
scliooners  did  not  eome  from  Nova  Scotia  and  Han 
Francisco,  liave  yon  any  idea  as  to  wliere  the  ni  >st  of  llum 
came  from  in  1SS4  or  1885,  whether  from  Nova  Scotia  or 
from  San  Frant-isco?  A. — The  most  of  our  sealing  fleet 
tliat  has  been  imported,  I  nnd«>rstand,  is  from  the  East; 
Nova  Scotia  is,  I  think,  the  cliief  jdace  they  come  from. 

Q. — Were  tliere  many  more  from  Nova  Scotia  than  from 
San  Francisco?       .\. — I  should  think  a  great  many  more. 

Re-cross  examination  by  Mr.  Dickinson: 

Q. — Now,  yon  are  testifying,  you  understand,  to  the  year 
ISSfi  at  the  latest.  Tan  you  name  me  a  single  ship  that  is 
in  the  sealing  (leet  that  came  to  this  port  from  Nova  Scotia, 
jtrior  to  or  during  the  yi'ar  1886?  A. — I  think  I  said,  be- 
fore sir,  that  I  did  not  like  to  confine  myself  to  dates  at  all. 
as  it  was  not  my  busiiu'ss  to  keej)  a  record  of  them. 

Q. — ^Vill  you  swear  to  a  single  sldj)  that  was  afterwards 
in  llie  sealing  tieet,  (»r  was  then  in  the  sealing  fleet  that  came 
to  this  port  from  Nova  Scotia,  prior  to  or  during  the  year 
'SSr?  A. — I  would  not  swear  to  one  of  them.  I  wonid 
n.»t  sw(>ar  there  was  ever  one  came  from  there,  for  I  never 
saw  her  leave  there  and  get  here. 

Mr.  Peters: — It  docs  appear  to  me  that  there  should  be 
some  limit  to  the  number  of  times  my  learned  friend  shoild 
cross-examine.       This  is  a  ntatter  he  cross-examined  on  be- 
40  fore,  and  1  simply  re-examined  the  witness  on  it. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Rut  you  have  gone  into  the  (|u<'stion  of 
the  great  majority  of  these  schooners  coming  from  Nova 
Scotia,  and  I  have  the  right  to  inquire  about  that. 

.Mr.  I'eters: — I  simply  re-<>xamined  on  the  j)oint  raised  by 
yourself. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — .\iid  I  want  to  see     what     the     witness 
knows  about  it.       I  have  a   perfect  right  to  cross-examine 
50   him  on  your  reexamination,  and   with   all   due  deference   I 
think  I  am  entitled  to  a  ruling  on  that  point. 

The  Ccmimissioner  on  the  part  of  the  T'nited  States:— For 
tiiy  jtart  I  do  not  remember  the  examination  fully. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — This  is  as  regards  tin'  Nova  Scotia  t'eet 
and  my  learned  friend  has  called  njt  a  new  fact:  that  the 
great  majority  of  these  vessels  came  from  Novn  Sc<»tia. 

Mr.  Peters: — That  »anie  out  in  your  own  examination. 

Cq  Mr.  Dickinson: — Now,  if  my  learned  friend  is  going  to  be 
Itchnical  as  to  the  introduction  of  testinnmy,  what  sln^ll  we 
say  of  this  mass  of  testimony  that  has  been  put  in  by  him 
in  this  case  from  start  to  tinish.  If  he  ts  going  to  insist  that 
I  he  evidence  should  be  conducted  in  accordance  with  the 
rules  of  common  law  of  the  I'nited  Slates  and  of  Great  llrit- 
ain,  I  acce]»t  the  issue,  and  I  shall  use  mv  in-ivilege  of  object- 
ing to  incompetent  testimcmy  from  this  time  out,  if  my  learn- 
ed fiiend  desires  to  ndojit   that   rule. 


ifi 
II 

m 


lii 


304 


M 


Mr.  lVt«'i'H: — We  nn>  not  aware  of  what  has  boon  stated 
by  my  h'arned  frieiul,  tliat  a  lot  of  irrel«>vaiit  teKtiniony  has 
b<'eii  put  in.  It  i.s  quiie  open  fttr  my  friend  to  object  to  any 
evidenee  that  we  may  tender  at  any  time  durinf;  fiu>  conrse 
of  the  investlKiilion?  We  liave  no  objection  to  Iiis  arpu- 
injr  tlie  point,  and  win  n  he  does  arjfue  it  we  Hhall  attempt,  as 
well  as  we  can,  to  answer  his  objection.  This  witness  has 
been  examined  on  a  certain  jtoint,  and  cross-examined  on 
that  point.  lie  was  cross  examined  with  rejjard  t<)  a  certain 
'°  other  i»oint,  and  I  to<»lv  the  liberty  of  re-examining;  him  on 
that  point,  and  both  in  accordance  with  the  rules  of  com- 
mon law.  and  in  accoidance  wltii  tiie  rules  of  every  court.  F 
liad  a  perfe<t  rifjht  lo  do  tiiat.  I  do  not  wisli  to  be  con- 
sidered as  raisint;  unnecessary  objections,  and  I  have  no  in- 
tention of  doin^  so. 

The  Commissiimer  on  tlie  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — The 
Commisioners  do  not  rememl)er;  I  do  not  at  any  rate  re- 
meml)er     ^Iie     entire     examination     snfticiently     to     nial»e 

20  a  rulin<;  upon  a  cpu'stion  of  this  soit,  which,  of  coarse,  is  left 
entirely  to  the  descretittn  of  the  court.  This  is  not  a  ques- 
tion of  the  admissability  of  evidence.  l)ut  it  is  a  ()uestion  of 
procedure.  Heretofore  we  have  allowed  counsel  to  deter- 
mine the  evidence  for  themselves,  on  account  of  the  necessKy 
which  the  Treaty  imposes  ujmn  the  commissioners.  •hidse 
Kinjj  and  myst'lf  ajiree  that  upon  the  whole  we  will  allow 
Mr.  Dickinson  to  put  the  queslion,  althon^rh,  T  think  the  wit- 
ness stated  twice  already  that  he  did  not  remember  any  of 
tlu'se  dates;  perhaps  on  your  re-direct  «>xamination,  Mr.  Pet- 

30  ers.  he  rather  thoucrht  he  did  recollect  some  dates. 

Dickinson: — Yes,  and  fixed  the  dates 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  T'nited  States: 
— Judfte  Kinn  and  myself  a^ree  to  allow  the  question  to  be 
put. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  wish  to  say  one  word  on  the  Rj'ueral  sub- 
ject in  reply  to  my  learned  fiieiid  on  the  other  side.  I  under- 
stood in  the  discussion  of  tin  rules  >ipon  which  we  tormally 
40  agreed  in  order  to  sink  onr  differences  and  save  tiin«>,  that  we 
would  not  adopt  the  strict  rules  of  tlu>  common  law,  and  ev«'n 
if  we  had  agreed  io  d<»  so,  we  doubted  whether  the  leanunl 
(Commissioners  would  accejit  any  such  rule.  Hut  furthermore 
we  have  understoml  <m  our  side  from  the  rommissioners  that 
ilhe  examination  shall  be  largely  in  (he  hands  of  the  counsel, 
and  that  ev«'n  if  we  sufj;j{ested  in  the  ordinaiy  way,  an  obji-c- 
tion  to  the  competency,  relevancy,  ov  materiality  of  the  testi- 
mony, after  all  your  Honours  would  admit  it,  if  in  the  d«'s- 
cH'tion  of  counsel  he  tho'ijuht  it  suitable  -luthentic  testi- 
mony. H<'nce  we  liavi-  not  objcct;>d  to  incompetent  testi- 
mony, to  say  n  >thinv:  of  immaterial  and  irrelevant  testimony, 
in  the  course  o,  this  hearinfj;.  If  I  have  misunderstood  the 
lulinR  of  the  learned  Commissioners,  and  the  suf^K^'stion  of 
the  learned  Commissioners,  as  to  the  rule  in  r«>}jard  to  the 
takiuK  of  testimony,  I  would  like  t(t  know  it  now,  so  that 
if  we  are  to  be  s'f>verened  by  the  rules  of  Common  law,  I  may 
take  such  objections  as  I  would  deem  to  be  necessary  in  an 
ordinary  trial  at  nisi  prius. 

The  Commisumer  on  the  jtart  of  the  I'nited  States: — The 
Commissioners  have  not  ruled  ujuui  the  question  of  relevancy 
or  competency  of  testimony.  We  have  simply  intimated  that 
the  questions  that  have  lieen  biou);ht  before  the  Commis- 
sionei's  with  relerenci'  to  the  admissibility  of  evidence  have 
not  been  iiuestions  of  co'upett  'icy  o"  relevancy  of  evld<'n<*e, 
but  they  have  rather  Iteen  questions  hearing  upon  the  issues 
wlilcli  are  presented  here.  That  is  to  say:  the  questions 
presented   to  the  Conunlssioneis  so  far,  would   require   the 


SO 


60 


!  .!' 


lO 


t'oiniiiiHHioncrs  lo  nih  iiiioii  tlic  iii;iiii  iHSiu-;-.  which  (VmiumcI 
niim'd  on  the  one  side  or  the  other.  So  far  as  tliese  are 
(•((iiccnii'd  tlie  roiiiuiiHsiomTs  luive  been  nnwilliii);  to  rule 
upon  tliese  main  iHHiies,  but  prefer  to  h-ave  them  until  the 
case  is  all  in,  and  arjrued  bv  rounael.  The  protests  raised 
It.v  counsel  have  been  mainly  npon  quostions  of  that  sort. 
\Ve  have  indic:><ed  so  far  as  these  questions  are  concerned 
our  preference,  but  we  have  never  yet  bi>en  asked  to  riilo 
upon  a  mere  question  of  relevancy  or  competency. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Wo  certainly  have  not  asked  yew. 

The  rommissioner  on  the  i>art  of  the  Tnifed  States: — Xei- 
tlier  side  has  asked  us  to  rule,  as  to  whether  evidence  of  a 
primary  or  secondary  character  would  be  allowed.  What 
llie  Commissioners  will  d«>  when  a  (juestion  of  that  sort 
comes  up  is  still  open  to  question.  The  (juestion  before  us 
now  is  merely  a  <iuestion  with  reference  to  which  the  court 
may  exercise  descrelicm.  Two  or  three  times  we  have  inti- 
mated to  counsel  that  the  examination  had  gone  sufficient 
in  a  certain  direction,  and  we  felt  that  counsel  would  regard 
tlie  usual  rules  with  reference  to  the  examination  and  cross- 
examination. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — So  wo  understood. 

The  ('ommissi<mer  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — So 
far  as  1  am  concerned  I  am  unable  to  recall  the  examination 
sullicicntly  to  say  whether  or  not  the  question  that  Mr. 
Dickinson  put  would  be.  upon  straight  lines  of  re-crossex- 
^°  iimination,  admissibility  in  the  discretion  of  the  Court.  Judge 
King  thinks  upon  the  whole,  without  giving  me  any  reason, 
that  it  is  better  to  allow  you  to  put  the  question,  and  we 
have  decided  accordingly. 

Mr.  Dickinson; — I  do  not  care  so  much  about  the  question 
as  I  do  about  the  point  that  we  are  to  be  contined  to  those 
technical  rules. 


20 


!«■ 


•\  ■>:, 


!i    -i 


wmm 


!    If 


(jll  >  ill  [1 


M  !' 


40 


^o 


()0 


The  rommi8.sioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — I  agree 
with  what  my  learned  brother  has  said.  I  wt>uld  at  present 
iigiee  with  him  in  objecting  to  laying  down  before  hand  any 
lirm  and  fast  rule  to  bo  f>bserved  in  this  matter.  Hut  in 
matters  relating  to  the  admissibility  of  evidence — which 
must  bo  governed  in  our  judgment  by  th<'  particular  case 
as  it  arises — I  agree  also  in  saying  that  the  nmtter  must  bo 
loft  largely  to  counsel.  It  must  not  be  supposed  that  we 
would  abandon  the  right  which  every  court  has  of  keeping 
the  c:iso  fairly  within  the  bounds  of  the  pleadings.  Wo 
must  do  that  or  otherwise  the  counsel  would  have  the  con- 
trol of  the  case  and  not  the  cotirt.  We  must  do  that  in  the 
interest  of  orderly  proceedings,  and  in  order  that  the  case 
may  not  extend  to  undue  length.  Coming  now  to  this  nnit- 
ter  espi'cially  in  ((uestion,  I  for  myself  <lo  not  fool  that  I  have 
a  siiflliciontly  accurate  knowlodgo  of  what  had  taken  i>laco 
in  the  examination  (not  having  taken  noes)  to  enable  mo,  off 
hand,  to  detciinine  whether  tlie  matter  that  .Mr.  I'ott'rs  had 
g«uie  into,  strictly  arose  out  of  the  cross-examination  oi-  not. 
It  appears  to  mo  that  it  would  bo  better  to  treat  it  as  a  new 
examination  which  would  warrant  Mr.  Dickinson  in  cross- 
exauiininu;  upon  it;  and  then,  subject  to  .Mr.  I'otors'  right  to 
locxamim'  further,  coufliiing  himself  entirely  to  the  matter 
iif  .Mr.  Dickinson's  crosscvaminalion  That.  I  Ihink.  is  the 
\io\v  that  w<'  onloitain  upon  this  matter.  It  occurs  to  me 
tlial  it  would  be  better  to  deci<1e  each  (|iH>stioii  as  it  arises, 
lallier  than  thin  we  should  constitute  a  proicdent  by  hiving 
down  M  rule  to  cdvor  :i  gieit  number  of  matters,  which  might 
not  be  in  our  minds  at  the  time  wo  made  that  rule. 


p  II T  irp  '■  -TJis  mj 


•♦•)| 


lO 


30 


30 


40 


50 


60 


206 

Mr.  IMi-kin»()ii: — Tlio  ConiiiiissioiuT.s  must  have  ohwrvi'd 
that  I  have  not  objecti'd  to  what  iiuist  have  been  eoiiHidered 
iueoinpetent  tesiimon.v  from  time  to  time.  I  did  thiH  for  the 
IMirpose  of  Having  time,  nH  well  as  because  of  the  intimation 
of  the  CommisMionerH  that  the  examination  was  largely  in 
the  hands  of  counsel.  I  have  contented  myself  with  not 
cross-examining  on  certain  tpu  slionti  which  I  deemed  to  be  so 
clearly  incompetent  as  to  re(|uirt>  no  ehicidation. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  ITer  Majesty: — You  have 
fairly  earned  the  character  of  a  fair  and  liberal  cov.r.Hel  in  the 
nnitter   Mr.  Dickinson. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Thanks,  your  Lordshi]>. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — I 
think  wi'  may  say  that  of  counsel  on  both  sides.  Without  any 
intimation  from  us  and  without  any  sharp  ruling  on  the  jtart 
of  the  court  counsel  on  both  sides  have  very  carefully  follow- 
ed the  usual  rules  governing  examination,  cross-examination 
and  reexamination  of  witnesses.  In  this  case  I  agree  fully 
with  what  Judge  King  has  said. 

Re-cross-examination  by  Mr.  Dickinson  <'ontinu«'d: 

(J. — Can  yon  name  me  a  ship  that  came  arotmd  from  Nova 
Scotia  before  IHXd  or  in  the  year  ISSC?  A. — No,  sir,  I  can- 
not.    1  cannot  swear  to  the  date. 

Q. — Do  you  know  the  first  ship  that  «'ver  did  come  around 
and  that  went  into  the  sestling  tleet.  A. — The  first  ship  Ui  my 
recollection  was  the  '"IMoneer."' 

Q. — Was  it  not  the  "Patliflnder'"?  A. — It  is  the  same 
schooner. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Then  we  are  agreed  upon  thiit.  That  is 
all  I  have  to  ask  you. 

Examination  of  the  witness  closed. 

Mr.  Peters: — Yesterday  my  learned  friend  in  cross-examin- 
ing Mr.  Hechtel  brought  out  from  him  the  fact,  or  it  came  out 
in  the  course  of  examination,  that  he  had  been  appointed  ad- 
ministrator of  James  Ogilvie.  I  am  not  cpiite  sure  tJuit  it 
may  be  mattM'ial,  but  in  ord vr  that  the  matter  may  be  before 
the  court  I  produce  now  the  letter  of  Administration,  which 
were  issued  to  him. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — It  might  be  stated  in  the  niinntes  that  let- 
ters of  administratiiMi  a|)pcar  to  liav<'  been  issued  from  the 
Supreme  Court  of  Hritish  Columbia  to  A.  J.  I{e(ht<'l  on  th»> 
estate  of  James  Ogilvie,  deceased,  on  the  4th  day  of  October, 
1SS,S,  reciting  the  deatli  to  have  occuircd  on  the  2(!th  of  Aug- 
ust, 1HS(!.  Mr.  Hechtel  yes^terday  thought  that  his  letters  of 
administration  came  from  Sitka. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  will  exi)lain  that  to  you  also.  Tiie  docu- 
ment u])on  which  the  death  was  jiroved  (that  is  a  copy  of  the 
coroner's  incpiest),  was  sent  fi'om  Sitka,  siiid  that  is  the  docu- 
ment he  was  ref<'rring  to.  no  doubt.  Of  course  the  letters  of 
administration  must  have  been  issued  in  Itrilish  Columbia. 
I  will  recall  Hechtel  as  to  that.  There  is  another  matter  that 
h(>  might  ex|ilain  u]ion.  lie  was  tilso  asked  with  regard  to 
some  stubs  of  receipt  books  and  1  would  like  him  to  be  ex- 
amined u|)on  that  subject,  and  of  course  cross-examined  by 
Mr.  Dickinson. 


Andrew  J.   Hechtel.  of  the  city  of  N'ictoria,  a   witness  al- 
ready examined  and  duly  sworn  in  this  case  was  recalled: 

Examined  by  Mr.  Peters: 


filf'iil'jllj 


i, 


il. — Von  were  askt'd  llu-  olliei  dii.v  willi  re)jfiir«l  (o  lakiiif? 
out  letUrs  (»f  adiiiiniKlratiton?     A. — Yes,  Hi r. 

Mr.  I'elers: — I  intend,  with  tlie  consent  of  in.v  learned 
friend,  wliicli  consent  I  tliink  I  will  K<'f.  ♦••  •»•'  content  with 
entering  on  the  minutes  the  date  of  these  letters  of  adniinis- 
I  rat  ion.  and  the.v  need  not  be  tihd  as  an  exhibit.      (To  wit- 

nt'HH); 

10       Q — Yon  were  asked  to  look  or  some  stnbs  of  receipts,  and 
lis  a  matter  of  fact  did  y«tn  make  a  search?     A. — I  did,  sir. 

Q. — ^^'hat  is  the  latest  book  of  receipt  stnbs  yon  conld 
j;el?    A. — I  conld  not  tind  the  one  in  <|uestion. 

(y — Did  y«ni  brinfi  what  yon  conld  tind?  A. — These  arc 
just  the  stnbs  of  honse  H'ceipts. 

il — Is  that  the  ordinary  receipt  book  yon  had  been  keep- 
ill}!  in  lSi(r>.     A. — No.  this  is  a  house  receipt. 

ii. — I  want  to  call  your  attention  to  tlu'  way  in  which  they 
are  ninubered.     Do  the  numbers  run  conse(ntiv<'ly?     A. — \o, 
JO   tliey  ar»'  numbered  accordinfj  to  the  number  of  the  cottaf;*'- 

(j. — So  that  in  your  course  of  business,  with  regard  t«»  this 
matter,  the  numberinf!;  here  shows  the  number  of  your  cot- 
tatJ*'"'     A  — Yes. 

(i.— The  tirst  one  is  E.  ('.  Davis  and  that  is  No.  «?  A. — 
Yes.  sir. 

(I. — And  the  next  one  is  ISerrifjan  and  that  is  No.  4?  A. — 
Yes.  sii'. 

(i.— .\nd  so  on  all  through  the  book?    A. — You  will  tind 
tiieni  just  the  same  all  tlirouf^h  the  l>ook. 
jO       Q- — Not    beiufi  numberi'd   c<tnsecntively    at    all?     A. — No, 
just  as  the  name  comes  the  number  appears. 

Q. — Was  (hat  the  way  yon  jjenerally  did  yonr  business? 
A. — Yes,  sir,  ffenerally.  In  that  b<M»k  yoii  will  tind  there  is 
not  a  space  left  for  numlu'rinj;. 

1^. — This  other  book  yon  have  here  relates  to  transacticms 
(if  1S!»4?     A.— Yes,  thai  is  different. 

Q. — The  book  yon  have  in  your  hand  relates  to  transactions 
of  IS!);-)?  A.— Yes,  they  are"  the  latest.  I  think.  I  believe  I 
have  one  or  (wo  for  1S!C{.  but  nothinfj  further  back  than  that. 
40  Q- — You  have  not  bet'n  able  to  tind  (he  receipt  books  for 
1SS(J?.  A. — No,  in  fact  all  of  these  receipt  books  are  gener- 
ally destroyed  after  a  certain  time. 


W 


m. 


i  :i!l 


h '. 


(("rosse.xamined  bv  Mr.  Dickinson): 


i-i-  These  are  the  only  two  stub  books  yini  conld  find?  A. 
No.  sir;  1  have  more  of  that  kind,  that  is  house  receipts. 

<i.— Ibit  none  back  of  lS!».-»?     A.— Nothing  back  of  ls!».!. 

i]. —  Instead  of  puttin}jj  (he  number  of  (he  check  or  the  re- 
50   ceipt  u]ion  the  book  y(ni  jtnt  the  number  of  the  cottajje?     A. 
— .lust  (he  number  of  (he  cottaffe  in  this  sjiace. 

<i. — Df  course  yon  would  not  then  number  them  cons«'cu- 
•  ively.  would  you?     A. — No,  sir. 

il. — And  you  did  not  number  the  receipts  consecutively 
when  you  I'eceived  rents  from  the  same  cotta}j;e.  If  you  re- 
ceived rents  for  each  mondi  for  (he  year  lS!>r>,  yon  di<l  not 
i;uiiiber  these  from  t  to  \'2,  did  you?  A. — As  the  name  ap- 
piars  'he  same  number  will  ap])ear  on  them. 

t/.— Just  (he  coKajJie?     A. — Yes. 
60       12.--You   did    not    number  consecutively   the   receip>.^  you 
j^ave  (lie  same  man?     .\. — No,  it  is  just  as  you  see  it  (hi-re. 

(^ — Did  you  act  under  these  letters  of  administrathm?  A. 
— Yes.  sir. 

(i. — Did  you  find  any  heirs?     A. — No.  not  that  I  know  <tf. 

(i. — Did  you  find  any  relatives  of  any  kind  or  description? 
•\- — No,  sir,  none  whatever. 

(Hecxaniined  by  Mr.  Peters): 


iii| 


r  ,•  •  .,     .^1 


2U8 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


Q. — As  a  luattct'  of  fac-t  did  .vmi  liavo  any  iiion-'V  to  givu 
the  h«'ii»  if  yon  had  found  thnn?    A. — No,  sir. 

ii. — So  tliat  ,voiir  seardi  was  not  vorv  noccssar.v?  A. — No, 
hIi'. 

Q.— Did  you  inalu'  search?  A. — I  did.  Instead  of  hav- 
iHK  money  for  them,  it  is  right  the  oppositts  so  far  as  assets 
are  eoneerned? 

( lie  \ro«  .-examined  ly  Vr    Diclviusim.) 

Q. — You  say  you  destroyed  receipt  books  every  four  years 
about.  A. — 1  lid  not  mention  any  time,  I  have  destroyed 
tiu-m  at  different  times.  Tliere  is  a  difficulty  in  keeiting 
them  around  a  house  wlien  you  luive  not  a  regular  office  for 
that  pur])ose,  and  I  often  take  old  papers  and  old  receipts 
and  stubs  and  destroy  them. 

(i. — Now,  if  Munsie  came  to  you  and  got  duplicate  receipts 
for  Honu'  that  were  lost  (witiiin  two  years)  of  tlu'  same  class 
<»f  receipts  and  the  same  blank,  where  do  you  suppose  you 
got  them?      A. — I  could  not  get  the  sanu>,  not  likely. 

Q. — Vou  did  not  get  the  same?  A. — I  could  not  get  the 
same,  not  likely. 

Q. — L>id  yon  in  any  searches  you  made  find  any  book  of  re- 
ceipts or  any  rcceijds  of  that  form  of  blank.  "  (Hlank  re- 
ferred to  is  attached  to  p:xhibit  No.  i).  (5.  I  J.  "('arolena'' 
case.)      A. — I  did  years  ago,  but  not  of  late  years. 

Q. — Did  you  find  any  in  any  searches  you  have  made  since 
yesterday  to  find  blank  receipts?      A. — The  stub? 

Q. — No,  the  receipts?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — You  did  not  find  any?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — llow  long  has  it  been  si.ice  you  have  seen  any  re- 
«'eipts  of  that  style  made  in  lfS88?  A. — It  has  been  a  number 
of  years  since  I  have  seen  any. 

Q. — How  many  ycius  about?      A. — I  cannot  say. 

(i. — 1SS5  is  elevi'ii  years  ago?  A. — 1  have  not  seen  them  for 
five  or  six  or  seven  years  and  piobably  longer.  I  could  not 
r«'memlu'r  when  <me  or  two  duplicates  were  made. 

Q. — Did  you  find  (hat  form  of  blank  in  any  of  your 
searches?       A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Nor  any  stub  books  from  which  they  had  been  taken? 
A. — No,  sir,  none  what*    i>r. 

(Gxamination  of  witness  closed.) 


■  ii 


i'lin 


'  I 


.I<»hn  Sabiston,  of  tin-  (Mty  of  Victoria,  a  witness  i»roduced 
50  on  behalf  <»f  Her  Majesty,  being  duly  sworn,  deposed: 

(Examined  by  Mr.  Hodwell.) 

Q. — Your  nanu'  is  .lohn  Sabiston?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

ii. — Vou  live  in  Victoria?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Vou  are  a  pilot?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Y(»u  have  been  a  resident  of  Victoria  most  of  your  life, 
liave  you  not?  A. — No.  but  I  have  been  a  resident  of  Itrit- 
isli  Columbia  all  my  life,  and  in  Victoria  nine  years. 

ii. — Vou  lived  at  Nanaimo?      .\. — Yes. 

Q. — Your  father  was  a  pilot,  I  beli<'ve?      A. — Yes. 

(J. — Did  he  live  at  Nanaimo?  A. — He  lived  at  Nanaimo 
and  belonged  to  the  society  of  pilots  who  opemtcd  betwi'cn 
A'ictoiia  and  Nanainut  and  down  to  the  Uace  Uocks  and  in 
that  neighborhood. 

Q. — Did  you  know  the  schoner  "(^arolena?"  A. — Yes,  I 
knew  her. 

Q. — llow  long  did  you  know  her?  .\. — I  cannot  say  but 
quite  u  lon^  time. 


60 


10 


20 


40 


50 


Go 


309 

(). — III  wliiit  Wii.v  did  you  ((mik'  (o  know  Iht?  A.— Well, 
I  seen  licr  come  fo  Naniiiiiio  for  coal  nixl  wlicii  tlic  pilotH 
iiwiu'd  licr  I  would  sec  licr  oc(aNioniilly.  I  was  "scliooiK'r- 
iii^r,"  riiniiiiii!;  a  mhooncr  m,v«clt'  in  carl.v  da\T.. 

(l — And  .vou  wciH-  accuHtonicd  to  sliips  and  took  an  inter- 
est   ill  tliein?       A. — Yes. 

(2.— Did  vou  know  anything  alioiit  the  "Carolena"  with 
reference  to  her  lines,  sailiii;;  (|ualities,  and  s<»  on?  A. — 
Ves,  I  had  seen  the  vessel  and  slu'  had  very  fjood  lines. 

ii. — What  were  her  lines  according;  to  yonr  knowledpN  and 
wliat  were  her  capacities  ,is  a  sailer,  according  to  your  kiuiw 
ledjje?      A. — She  was  a  fn»n\  nailer. 

(i. — What  were  her  lines  of  luiild?  A. — I  do  not  quite 
understand  that  «]uestion. 

ii. — Vou  say  she  was  a  }J'»<>*1  sailor.  Did  she  have  any  re- 
[•utation  anionij  sailinfj  men?       .\. — Ves. 

ii. — What  was  it?      A. — That  she  was  a  fast  sailer. 

t^. — Did  yon  say  she  was  owned  by  the  pilots?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Were  you  on  board  of  her  when  she  belonjjed  to  the 
jiilots?      A. — No,  I  was  not. 

(i. — Do  yon  know  if  anything;  was  done  to  her  while  tlu' 
pilots  owned  her?  A. — They  fitted  her  np  for  their  own  ac- 
coinniudation. 

(). — And  subsequently  she  became  the  property  of  Mr. 
Donald  Urquhart?      A. — Yes. 

il. — You  know  that?      A. — Yes. 

(.]. — Did  you  visit  her  after  she  benune  his  propertv?  A. 
—Yes,  I  did. 

i-l. — Why  did  yon  ^o  to  visit  her?  A. — He  asktd  me  to  {;o 
down  and  have  a  look  at  her. 

ii. — What  was  the  occasiiui  of  that?  A. — He  had  lenj^th- 
eiied  her  and  made  her  a  larger  vt'ssel. 

Q. — Was  that  work  done  when  you  went  to  se.'  her?  .\. — 
Ves.  siie  was  tinished. 

(.i. — What  observations  did  you  make  on  that  occasion? 
A. — I  had  a  look  at  her  and  told  him  that  I  thou$i;ht  she  was 
ill  very  jjood  order. 

Q. — What  had  been  done  to  the  vessel?  A. — About  tw'o- 
lliirds  of  the  hull  had  been  renewed  in  the  lengtheiiiii}!  of  the 
boat. 

(■i. — How  did  it  conn'  abimt  that  two-thirds  of  th«'  hull  hatl 
been  renewed,  just  explain  fully.  A. — That  was  in  breaking 
the  joints  and  pl:inkiiij>:  the  hull  and  the  deck.  The  wlude 
planks  had  to  be  taken  out  so  as  to  break  the  joints. 

ii. — And  in  dolus  that  did  vou  put  in  new  planks?  A. — 
Ves. 

ii. — How  lon^;  would  these  new  planks  be  in  many  in- 
stance's? A. — Tliey  would  be  ditTereiit  lengths  so  as  to  over- 
lajt  from  the  new  work  over  the  old  work,  some  of  th«'  planks 
were,  I  suppose,  two-thirds  the  length  of  the  vessel. 

Q. — How  about  the  deck?  A. — The  d«'ck  was  similar  I  be- 
lieve. 

ii. — Was  there  anything  else  done  to  her?  A. — She  had 
to  have  new  rifininj;  and  sails  and  spars,  because  the  vessel 
was  much  larjjer  than  she  had  been. 

ii. — What  condition  was  she  generally  in  then?  A. — Shu 
was  in  very  good  condition. 

ii. — Well,  would  you  compare  her  as  an  <dd  shijt  or  as  a 
new  shiji?  A.— She  was  ciunpared  with  a  new  vessel,  she 
was  nearly  all  new. 

ii. — Have  you  any  opinion  as  to  what  a  vessel  like  that 
would  have  been  worth  at  that  time?     A. — Yes. 

H. — Now,  what  is  your  opini(ui?  A. — She  would  have  cost 
to  build — 

The  ('<mimissioner  cui  the  jiart  of  the  Uniti'd  Stales: — That 
does  not  answer  the  question. 
11 


I 


210 


'■il    '\ 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


[  i 


Mr.  Itodwt'll: — I  a>i>  ufiaid  .voiir  IIoikmii-,  .voii  will  liavt-  l<i 
h'l  hiiii  iiiiHWi'i'  ill  liiH  own  wa.v  Imhiuihi'  lit'  appears  to  bo  n*'t- 
tiny  coiifuwd  now. 

TIh'  ConiniisHiont'r  on  tlif  part  of  tlie  United  States: — Let 
liini  answer  yonr  tiuestion. 

Mr.  Hodwell: — I  will  ask  the  (luestion  in  this  wa,v  (to  wit- 
ness) : 

Q. — What  would  it  have  cost  to  build  a  vessel  of  the  char- 
acter of  the  "t'arolena"  as  you  saw  her  on  that  occasion,  and 
titted  as  you  saw  her?     A.— fn.tKKK 

Q. — l>o  you  know  anything  about  the  time  when  an  excep- 
tional interest  in  the  scaling  business  took  place  in  this  port? 
A. — No,  I  do  not.  1  cannot  say. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  in  the  y«'ar  1880  whether  there  was 
a  demand  for  sealing  schooners?  A. — I  cannot  say  whetlier 
it  was  188(i  or  a  little  later. 

Q. — l»o  you  remember  at  any  time?  A. — Well,  not  parti 
cularly. 

Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Lansing. 

(J. — Are  you  n«>w  engag<>d  as  a  pilot?    A. — I  am. 

y. — At  the  time  you  lived  in  Nanaimo  you  were  a  pil(»t? 
A. — I  was. 

Q. — Aiid  your  father  was  a  pilot?    A. — Yes. 

Q. — You  knew  the  ship  "Carolena"  when  she  was  carrying 
coal?    A. — Yes. 

(i- — Was  she  a  large  schooner?    A. — No,  she  was^n't. 

i}. — Where  was  she  carrying  coal  to  and  from?  A. — \a 
naimo  to  Victoria. 

ii. — Who  owned  her?  \. — She  was  owned  by  a  man  called 
Captain  Jones  when  1  tirst  knew  her. 

Q. — What  was  his  tirst  name?    A. — Janu's. 

(i. — You  saw  her  after  she  was  repaired  by  Captain 
T'rquhart?    \. — Yes. 

Q. — And  yon  think  that  twi>-thirds  of  her  hull  was  renew- 
ed?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i.— Fully  two  thirds?    A— Yes,  sir. 

il. — Was  two-thirds  of  her  deck  renewed?     A. — Y«'s.  sir. 
•   (J. — Any  new  ribs  in?    A. — The  whole  new  part. 

Q. — There  were  not  two  thirds  of  the  ribs  renewed?  A. — 
Well,  there  can't  have  been  two  tliirds  cpiite  of  the  frame. 

ii. — Of  the  sheathing?     A. — A. — Very  mar  it. 

Q.— And  the  (feck?     A.— The  deck-house. 

(i. — New  spars?     \. — New  s]iars. 

Q — Who  put  in  the  new  spars?  A  — That  I  couldn't  tell 
you. 

Q. — Did  you  see  Mr.  Hobiuson  on  board?     A. — Xo. 

(i. — It  was  after  tlie  work  b.-ul  been  comitleted?     A. — Yes. 

Q. — Did  they  put  new  rails  on?  .\. — Yes,  new  rails,  new 
bulwark. 

(i. — .\ round  the  whole  vessel?  A. — No.  I  don't  think  all 
round  the  vessel. 

(i.— Two  thirds  of  the  vessel?  A.— AVell.  pretty  near  it;  if 
it  wasn't  two-thirds  it  was  jnetty  near  it. 

Q. — Is  work  on  an  old  vessel  more  expensive  tl'.an  it  is  on 
n  new  vessel?      A. — Yes. 

(.}. — Then  if  yon  understood  that  the  work  on  that  vessel 
cost  *!»(i(l,  y<ui  would  still  value  her  at  $".,(1(10  to  build  new? 
.\. — I  didnt  know  what  she  cost. 

(■i. — I  ask  you  the  ()uestion;  if  you  understood  that  it  <'ost 
$!)(!'»  to  build  two-thirds  of  her  hull  new,  and  the  w<uk  cost 
nioi-e  on  a'l  old  vessel  than  it  did  on  a  new,  w(»uld  vou  still 
think  that  it  cost  «".(»(()  to  build  her  new?  A.— Isay  she 
would  cost  SSil.ddO  to  build  new  at  that  time.  1  have  built  ves- 
sels, oi-  at  least,  hinc  had  vessels  built. 


211 


'H'! 


Q. — Did  y(»i  hiilhl  nny  s«>iilin^  HiliooncrH?  A. — \<>,  ali<' 
wnsii't  ti  Hciiliiijr  si'liooiuT. 

(J. —  I  iisk  you  if  y<»ti  liiul  biilM  nny  Realin>;  schooucrN?  A. 
—  So,  I  it'll  not  !i  bnildtT.  I  havt'  paid  for  (lie  building;  of 
ii  lidiif. 

Q.—In  wlint  y«'nr?    A.— 1S72,  and  also  in  1S!».'{  or  1W»4. 

(J.— Did  you  have  any  v»'w8«'Ih  built  from  ISSl  to  IWMt?  A. 
No. 

{}. — How  do  you  know  tln'n  liow  niutli  it  would  coHt  to 
10  liiiild  a  v('K8«'l  in  tiiosc  years?    A. — Jiid^in);  from  what  it  coHt 
in  1S7U  and  what  it  cost  in  ISJCJ. 

(^._l>i(l  you  over  buy  a  vessel  between  ISHO  and  IS9(>?  A. 
No. 

il — Did  vou  ever  sell  a  vessel  between  1S80  and  1S!)(>?  A. 
—Yes. 

(2.— M'hat  one  was  that?      A.— The  "Wanderer." 

(2._\\1,<.„?    A.— 1SH((. 

Q. — Was    tlu'    "Wanderer"'     afterwards     seized?      A. — 1 
couldn't  tell  you,  may  be  she  was. 
2o      '^ — '*^  ■^'""  think  that  it  w(»uld  cost  to-day  f.'i.OOO  (o  build  a 
1*7  ton  vessel?     A. — I  dcm't  know. 

Q._\Vould  it  in  1S!>-1?     A.— In  1H!»4? 

Q.— Yes?       A.— Yes. 

Q- — #i>.<MM»  to  Imild  "J7  t<uis?  A. — I  don't  know  how  many 
tons. 

(). — I  don't  know  about  the  "("arolena."  I  ask  you  about  a 
27t<m  schooner  of  her  <haracler?  A. — Well,  it  would  cost 
very  near  it.      An  eleven-ton  on<'  cost  #2.5(10. 

Q. — When  was  there  a  demand  for  sealiuf;  schooners  in 
■>Q  this  jMtrf  A. — 1  couldn't  (oil  you  because  I  liaven't  been  in 
■'     the  scalin"  business. 


Ke-direct   examination. 

<). — Did  you  have  iiny  application  made  to  you  with  refer- 
ence to  the  demand  for  sealinj;  vessels  in  18S(!?  A. — W«'ll, 
I  vas  asked  at»our  my  own  schooner. 

(i. — Do  yon  know  the  circumstances  that  led  to  your  beint; 
iiskcd  altout  your  own  s<liooner?  A. — Well,  a  nnin  wanted  u 
schooner  to  <j;o  tradinj^  to  the  West  Co;ist  of  X'ancouver 
40   Island. 

(}. — Trading  for  what?     A. — Furseals. 

(i.— Do  yoti  know  any  of  the.surroundini;  circumstances, 
iinythins;  that  occurred  at  that  time?  A. Well.  Ihi'  Indhins 
were  catcliin;:  (juite  a  number  of  s»'als  on  the  West  Coast. 
They  thoui;ht  it  would  be  a  }?ood  business  in  trading  for 
them. 

Q. — And  in  consequt'uce  of  that  he  came  to  you  about  your 
own  schoon«'r?     A. — Yes. 

<i. — What  size  was  that  vessel?  A. — She  was  Ki-tons 
50   refjister. 

il- — Wher«'  was  she  built?    A. — San  Juan  Island. 

(i.— What  did  she  cost?     A.— |:{,(M1II. 

ii- — You  said  vou  jtaid  for  the  building  of  another  vessel? 
A.— Yes. 

g.— When  was  that?     A.— That  was  in  lX!»a  or  1W)4. 

Q. — Where  was  she  built?     A. — In  Victoria. 

ii- — What  was  her  size?     A. — Eleven  tons. 

li.— And  what  did  she  cost?    A.— »2,r)(>0. 

• 

(jo  ^Ii'-  nodwell:— My  friend.  Mr.  Lansing,  appears  to  be  under 
a  niisapprehj'usion  as  to  the  cost  of  that  new  W(»rk.  Mr.  Kob- 
inwMi's  bill  was  I'MKI.  but  it  did  not  include  the  spars  or  any- 
thing of  that  kind,  and  his  cross  examination  was  on  that 
basis. 

Mr.  Lansing: — I  would  like  to  ask  the  witness  erne  more 
ipiestion  in  regard  to  the  sale  of  the  "Wanderer,"  You  say 
it  was  for  trading  purposes? 


! '        m 


:i2 


20 


Mr.  nodwcll: — Voii  liavc  fxaiiiiiiol  on  tliiit  pniiit  (lUio. 

Ml'.  LiiiiHing: — Von  l)i-oii);lit  out  tlic  f:i«t. 

Mr.  Hodwt'll: — M,v  fi-iciul  iiMkcd  a  (|iu'Htion  altont  llic  "Wan- 
'(li'i-tT,  Hull  lu'  aHkfd  if  tliat  waH  tlic  vi'hh*-1  tliat  waH  H.-i/.cd, 
and  till'  witness  said  may  In-  it  was.  and  lu*  Htoppt'd  liis  ex- 
amination tiicre. 

Tlu'  Commissioner  on  Hie  |iart  of  Her  .Majesty: — We  will 
IQ  allow  the  (piestion  to  t)e  jnit. 

Mr.  Lansing: — I  do  not  rare  to  asix  it,  tlianl\  you. 

Uy  tlie  t'omniisHioner  on  the  part  of  tlie  I'nited  Statt's:^ 
il. — Do  you  know,  Mr.  Witness,  tluit  this  vt'ssel  laid  new 
Kpars  at  that  time?     A. — The  "Carcdeua?" 

Q. — Yes.  in  1HH4?     A. —  I  eotildn't  say  wlnit  year  it  was  in. 

(i. — Wln-n  slie  was  len^rtiiened  otit?  A. — Yes,  slie  laid  new 
s]tars  tlien. 

Q. — Mow  do  you  know  that;  were  you  intert'sted  in  her  at 
that  time?  \. — Xo,  I  was  not  interested,  tiie  owner  was 
down  tliere  lookiu);  at  tier. 

(i. — To  wliat  ext(  nt  dirt  slie  have  new  spars?  A. — She  had 
two  nnists,  sujiposed  to  have  been  luiilt  new. 

ii. — Two  new  masts?     .\. — New  masts. 

y. — Of  eoiirse  she  h.id  new  standini;  ri}?K'">?  then?  A. — O, 
yes. 

•  i. — Have  new  running;  liuffiii};?  A. — New  running  rig- 
f;ini;;  n«'\V  l>locks. 

Q. — Did  she  have  new  sails?  \. — Well,  I  would  n<»t  be 
3^  positive  wlietlier  she  had  sails  bent  when  I  was  down  there  or 
not. 

ii. — Mr.  Peters.  ha\en'1  yon  any  witnesses  that  know  what 
^ork  was  dom-  on  that  schooner  at  that  time? 

Mr.  I'eters: — I  have  some  witn«'sses.  We  will  <;ive  to  the 
Court  any  information  we  ciin.  I  cannot  say  exactly  that  we 
<an  }!('(  a  witness  to  show  the  exact  work  don*'  on  her;  but 
/  think  we  will  jti-ove  that  the  "t'arolena"  had  certainly  new 
.•!ails.  .Ml'.  ri(|iiliai'r.  who  owned  the  vessel  at  that  time,  is 
Ao  ilead.  and  he  is  the  only  person  who  had  a  direct  interest  in 
keepinji  a  rccerd  of  that,  but  I  think  I  have  an  entry  in  on«' 

of  tlie  books. 

• 

The  ''oniiiiissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'liited  States: — I  do 
not  care  to  have  a  statement  about  it.  T  want«'d  to  know  if 
you  had  srtine  witnesses  who  knew  exactly  what  was  doiu'. 

Mr.  Peters: — No,  we  cannot  };et  a  witness  who  can  j{ive  a 
full  statement  after  this  length  of  lime. 


50 


I  ! 


■lohii  Clark,  <'alled  as  a  witncBH  on  the  part  of  (Sreat  Brit- 
ain and  duly  sworn. 

Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Meique: 

(i. — Mr.  Clark,  wliere  do  you  reside?     A. — In  N'ictoria,  sir. 

(2. —  How  loan  have  you  ri'sidcd  in  Victoria?     A. — 14  years. 

^i- — What  has  been  your  occupation?  \. — I  am  a  ship 
/-Q   wrifjlit  by  tnide. 

(i.— -Ml  the  time?  A. — Itei  n  constantly  at  it  since  I  have 
been  in  N'ictoria. 

(i.— Durinu;  thes«'  14  years?  A.— During!;  1.")  or  1(»  years  I 
have  been  steady  at  it. 

11 — I'pim  y(nir  own  account?  A. — Nine  years  («i  my  own 
account,  conlractinfj  and  building;. 

Q.— For  the  last  nine  yeans?     A. — Yes,  sir. 


2'3 


10 


30 


Q. — Itcfoii*  tlu'M«*  ir>  or  10  yt'tii'H,  weir  .v«»ii  in  the  Hiiint'  hutti- 
iit'HH  also  clHcwlH'rc?  A. — lU-cn  in  llif  Hlii|ilMiildin(;  hiiNlni'WH, 
tiijit  is,  a  joiii'Mfyiniin.  on  and  otT  (lit-  IuhI  25  xoh'n. 

(i.— Wlu'n-?     A.— Ill  Uu'  KuMl. 

(.y — In  Xovn  Scotia?     A. — In  Nova  SroHa. 

il. — And  all  that  tinn>  joii  have  Ix-cn  ornipicd  in  tin-  Imild- 
iii^  of  vchhcIn?  a. — Not  all  tlie  tiiiM*,  on  an<I  oti'  for  -5  ,v<-ai-H; 
l(>  vi'aiK  st«'ad.v  at  it. 

(y — lUd  yon  work  on  Itiiildiu^  i»rftl.v  lar^o  vchscIh?  A. — 
YcK.  sir. 

iy — What  tonnatif?  A. — Well,  I  have  worked  on  vchhcIh 
all  the  way  from  KKI  tons  to  l.SdO  tons. 

(i. — Did  yon  linild  any  waling  HchooncrN?  A. — 1  built  two 
Healing  srhoontM'H  in  tluH  jaiit. 

g._\Vhat  wcr*'  tlu-y.  tlu'ir  nanicK?  A.— The  "Victoria" 
was  one.  and  the  "KntcrjiriHc.' 

Q. — When  did  yon  linild  them?  A. — I  commenced  in  the 
tall  uf  1S!)1,  and  K*>t  done  in  the  Hprinf;  of  1K!>2. 

(i.— Hoth  of  them?     A.— Vew.  sir. 

Q. — IHd  you  bnild  tlicm  under  contract?     A. — One  of  th(m>. 

Q.— Which  <me?     A.— The  "Victoria." 

il — What  is  her  tonnafje?  A. — A  fraction  less  than  70 
Ions — (!!(  tons. 

ii. — About  (■»!»  tons?     A. — A  fraction  less  than  t!J»  terns. 

ij. — What  was  the  contract  jtrice  for  the  )niildin<;  of  that 
scliooner?  A.— !||iS.75(»  I  had  for  bnildinn  (he  "Victoria."  the 
coiitrait  price. 

.Mr.  nickiuKon: — May  it  please  your  lloncmrs,  1  will  formal- 
ly object  to  the  competency  of  testimony  bearing  on  this  is- 
sue, the  contract  pri<-e  of  the  cost  of  building  a  slii])  in  lH!l2-:<, 
as  lieariiifi  on  th»'  value  of  a  ship  six  years  before.  It  obvious- 
ly ai)iiears  that  testimony,  to  be  comi>eteiit  on  the  value  of  a 
shi]),  must  bear  upon  the  time  when  the  ship  was  seized,  or 
when  the  value  was  in  (]nesti(m.  That,  of  course,  is  too  <'lear 
for  argument.  Of  course,  if  thei-e  is  no  testimony  to  be  had 
as  to  the  value  ()f  ships  in  jiort,  as  of  the  time  when  the  valu- 
ation was  to  be  fixed,  then  they  may  no  into  prior  years  and 
subse«iuent  years  and  trace  back;  l)ut  in  ordcM"  to  make  sub- 

40  se(|uent  testimony  <'onipetent  years  after  the  fact.  «)r  years  be- 
fore the  fact,  the  impossibility  of  ]n-oducinK  siwli  testimony 
beariu};  on  the  value  at  the  time  must  be  demonstrated. 
There  is  no  (luestion  whatever  like  that  here,  for  the  reason 
that  it  is  ap])arent  that  tlieie  were  any  number  of  ships  here 
and  about  this  jtort  in  1HS4.  ISS.^.  issii,  1SS7  and  \XHS;  there 
were  Heels  of  such  shijts  here;  and  the  (piestion  is  not  what  it 
cost  lo  build,  unless  they  can  show  that  ships  wt'ie  built  at 
that  time.  Then,  of  c'ourse.  it  would  have  some  bearing  on 
the  value  of  the  ship,  if  (hey  show  the  cost  of  buildin<;  at 

50  <hiit  time;  but  (he  most  suitable  and  authentic  testimony  of 
which  this  subject  will  admit  beaiiii}^  on  the  value,  is  the 
market  value  of  shijjs  when  (here  was  a  demand,  anTi  when 
there  was  a  hee(  here  a(  the  port  of  Victoria,  or  in  (his  busi- 
ness here  on  the  loast  in  1S8(>.  We  submit  that  the  cost  of 
building  a  ship  when  (-(uiditions  had  changed,  as  has  been 
demonstrated  here,  six  years  later,  can  have  no  possible  bear- 
iiifj;  on  the  value  of  a  sealinj;  ship  in  1S,<5r>. 

Mr.  Hei(iiie: — We  have  it  in  evidence  that  there  were  very 
Go  '''W  vessels  built  here  in  ISSti  when  this  vesst'l  was  seized; 
outside  (tf  those  that  are  in  issue,  or  will  be  in  issue  in  the 
oilier  cases,  I  do  not  at  present  remember  of  any  one;  and,  so 
far  as  tlmse  are  concerned,  I  understand  that  it  is  the  desire 
of  the  Commissioners  that  we  should  not  }jo  into  their  cost, 
and  I  understand  that  to  be  the  ruliu};  jjiven  yesterday.  Now 
we  have  it  also  in  evidence  that  the  pri<'e  of  bnildinf;  v<'s«els 
was  considerably  mon>  in  18S(i  than  it  has  b«>en  in  later  years, 
ISit.'J  or  l.'^itU.  beinjr  the  years  about  whi<'h  the  i»resent   wit- 


i;i;  !fcrll 


fi^i 


ill  :ivi:;l 


nil 


'  ¥ 


'    •: 


I      ! 


II 


iim 


|lltllitl!l''l^ 


214 


lO 


i 


llfHH  WIIH  H|K'aklll^,  lliul  tllCl-cfoi'f  it  S<-«-IIIH  lo  III*'  (llllt  it  Im 
ri>lll|K'tc!ll  «'Vi(l«'Il(t'  mill  >I<i<hI  «>\iili-ll<')',  to  cliqililc  IIH  to  tin- 
cost  of  vchwIh  ill  tJH'w  later  .vt-arH. 

Mr.  nif-kiiiMoii: — I  liavc  one  word  iiiort>  to  Hay.  Of  coiirHo 
It  1h  iK'rft'ctl.v  apiiaifiit,  that  if  tlic  new  ground  in,v  fri»'ii«l 
takcM,  that  cvhlfiit*'  of  th*>  conI  of  tlx'  Hhip  in  IM!):.'  iiia.v  bear 
on  tli«>  fOHl  of  a  Hliip  in  ISSli,  by  hnihoii  of  tlu*  ilifTrrciirc  in  tht> 
<-oMt,  it  natiiiiill.v  followH  that  it  Ih  lu-ccNHaiy  for  thnii  to  hIiow 
tlu'  coHt  in  orih'r  to  kIiow  t!u'  ilillViciifo  in  coMt.  Tht-ii  iii.v 
lirolhcr'H  ar^iiiiii'iit,  it  m'l'ins  to  inc.  Ih  a  ilcnitiiistration  of  the 
iiicoiii|M'tcnc,v  of  the  tcHtiiiuaiy.  Iiciaiisc  it  Ih  |>rc<liiatcil  upon 
liiH  ability  to  show  the  cost  of  a  Hhip  in  tSSli  a|ipro.\iinatcly, 
in  order  to  nhow  the  dll1'er»'iice  between  the  cont  In  ISSti  and 
the  tiiii(>  aH  to  which  he  otfeiH  the  teNtiniony  as  to  the  cost  of 
the  shiji.  That  seeiiis  to  me  very  clear.  If  his  testiinony  is 
only  coiiip<>teiit  in  1S!li!.  on  the  Kroiind  my  friend  statcH  that 
by  the  teHtimoiiy  of  IM!L'  a  comparison  may  be  made  with 
IHSti,  then  he  Is  comparing  what  undoubtedly  would  be  com- 

20  I»etent  testimony,  althoiiKh  not  the  best  teHtimony.  NVe 
must  have,  as  a  basis  of  comparison,  competent  testimony  as 
to  what  the  cost  was  in  ISSt*  and  thus  demonstrate  the  Im- 
iiiaterhility  of  his  teHtimony  of  ls!t2.  Itiit  further,  the  testi- 
mony of  the  coHt  of  a  vchhcI,  while  it  may  be  competent,  i» 
not  the  best  lestliiKMiy,  unless  it  also  appeari*  that  there  is  no 
«'vldence  as  to  the  value  of  a  ship  because  there  were  no 
ships  at  tlu'  point  as  to  which  a  place  is  tixed  for  valuation; 
and  the  best  testimony  of  Viiliie,  by  all  the  rules,  of  ships, 
of  horses,  of  p»odH,  of  chattel  jtroperty  of  every  kind  and  de- 

30  Hcri|>tioii.  Ih  the  market  value  at  the  time  and  place.  In  the 
abneiice  of  ships  for  sale  and  a  demand  for  ships  at  the  point, 
it  is  true  that  cost  may  be  soiiu*  evidence  of  valu(>.  Noli 
constat,  cost  may  Ik*  some  evidence  of  value  in  the  absence  of 
better  jiroof;  but  at  the  time  wlu-n  they  wish  to  li.\  a  valiia- 
ti<»ii,  this  ]Mirt  wan  full  of  Hhips.  They  laid  a  market  value; 
Hliips  were  bought  and  Hold;  there  is  no  qu(>Htion  about  it; 
there  is  no  ditficiilty  about  ^^ivinj;  your  IIonourH  the  best 
pr<Mif.  Hut,  on  the  mailer  of  cont.  my  friend  nays,  there 
could  be  no  !shi])s  shown  that  were  built  here  in  IHSti  at  tli<> 
time;  no  ships  shown  built  <>arlier  than  six  years  later. 
Does  it  follow,  that  if  no  ships  were  built  here,  we  imiHt  tind 
tli»>  «oHt  «^f  the  shii»  six  years  tx'fore,  or  nix  yearn  after,  in  ar- 
riving, not  ai  the  <-ost  of  a  nhi]),  but  at  its  market  value?  The 
true  criterion  is  never  the  <-ost  of  the  thiiijr,  Iw-cause  the 
owner,  as  lias  been  demonstrated  here  by  witn(>ss  after  wit- 
ness, may  pay  more  (U'  |)ay  less  than  she  is  worth.  The  c<»st 
is  never  an  ess«'iitlal  element  of  daimiffeH.  The  only  use  of 
cost  in  any  case  is,  that  it  may  be  some  evidenc(>  tending;  to 
show  va)'M  In  the  absence  of  better  testiinony. 

5  The  rmuinissioner  on  the  i»art  of  Her  Majesty: — To  in«'  it 
BtH'iiis  that  tins  evidence  cannot  be  said  to  be,  as  aif^ued  by 
Air.  IMcivi'.son,  in  the  position  of  secondary  evidence  admis- 
sibh'  <!!<!;.  in  case  some  primary  <'videiice  is  not  obtainable; 
but  that  to  the  extent  that  it  is  relevant  at  all, 
il  is  not  sec(nidary  evidence,  but  |)rimary  «'vidence.  Now  the 
en(|iiiry  Is  as  to  the  value  in  ISlSti.  Well,  as  he  rightly  ar- 
mies, evidence  of  cost  in  1S,S(J  minht  have  some  b(>arin);  upon 
value  in  1S.S((.     Well,  evidence  of  cost  in  IHSH,  if  conditions 

(5q  are  ja*ov«'d  to  be  the  same,  would  alno  have  Home  beariuf;  up- 
on value  in  ISHti;  and  so  would  evidence  of  cost  in  IHU'2,  if  the 
evidence  shows  that  the  condituuis  were  the  wime,  <»•  at  all 
eventH  no  more  adverse  to  his  view.  The  evidence  of  cost  in 
IHU'2  would  be  some  evidence  in  the  same  way  of  cost  in  1H8(>; 
and  if  the  enquiry  was  solely  as  to  what  was" the  cont  in  18SI!, 
1  think,  upon  (he  evidenc*'  before  us,  that  «oHt  in  1K!>2  would 
be  material  and  relevant  eviden«*e  upon  (hat  issue.  Of  course 
wo  have  to  bear  in  mind  (hat  the  4'ni|uiry  was  not  as  to  the 


40 


lo 


20 


3<J 


40 


50 


60 


915 

coHt  in  lHH(i,  iMit  iiH  to  tlif  viiliif  ill  ISSti.  Htill,  tln-ic  Iiiih 
lifi'ii  ('<iiiHi<lri'iilii*>  rviili-iH'c  \i\\{'u  UN  lo  roHt  in  ISNS  anil  \SH'.i 
iiiKJ  vciii'H  Im-Iwccii  iHSti  iind  IM!):.'.  iiiitl  lo  iih-  il  hci-iiin  iih  if 
iliix  cviilfiKc  iH  UN  |iro|MTlv  iiiiili'iitil  tind  i-i-icviiiil  «-viili-iiii-  iih 
(lull.  II  iM  a  iiiiilt<-r  lo  niv  iiiiiiil  of  <l«-p;r<><>.  Tli*>  valii*>  of  tlir 
ifslinioiiy.  til*'  (li'ffi'fc  of  iiii|ioi-laiH-i>  lo  Im'  altiK-litd  to  it,  diiii 
iniNlii'H  an  voii  ^rl  away  froiii  tlic  dal*'  rcH|iv<liii;;  wliitii  tlic 
<-ii(|iiir.v  Ih  made;  and  I  would  lie  iiiclini'd  lo  lliink  that  llii> 
lOMiiHfl  for  tilt'  (laiiiiaiilH  lia\«'  aoi  aiiiitiNl  to  IIh'  ri'iiiolcHl 
lliiiil  of  date  wlim  tt'Nliiiiony  would  Ix'  faiilv  toiiNidi'ii'd  to 
liavc  iiiiicli  wci^lit  in  di'iciMiiiiiii};  tlu'  valiit'  at  llic  date  in 
*|ii<'slioii.  It  xrciiiN  to  IMC.  liowoviT,  thai  the  cvidoncc  raiinor 
Itc  said  lo  lie  Kirirllv  inadiiiiHHildi'.  bill  llial  tlir  obji'tlion  Ih 
one  llial  atlVclH.  and  very  niaii'rially  allVrtM,  ;<h  wt'liilit  licfor- 
iIiIh  Ti-ilinnal.  TIiIh  oxpn'MHion  of  o|iini<:n  is  mliii'ly  my 
own.  and  my  h'lii'iK'd  lii-olli<'r,  I  think,  dot'H  not  sliaro  my 
vicwH  fully — |it'rlia]iN  not  at  all.  TIiIh,  liowcvor,  Ih  the  view 
Hint  I  tak«'  of  tin-  matter. 

Tlic  CoinmiHMioni'i'  «>n  Ilic  pari  of  tlic  rnilcd  Stales: — 
I  would  like  to  explain  my  views.  I  am  peifeetly  well  aware 
llial,  upon  strict  rules  of  law.  it  may  lie  very  doiihtfiil 
wlielliei-  this  eviden<'«>  would  lie  admissilile  in  a  niiirt  of  jiis- 
liie.  I  am  not  clear  wliethei'  il  would  or  not;  but  il  is  very 
doiililfiil  to  my  mind.  Xeverllieless.  a  ({real  deal  of  evidence 
of  this  kind  has  ^oiie  in,  I'ollowin^  out  the  theory  staled  by 
.Mr.  |{ei(|ue  wlien  I  caMed  his  alleiilion  day  before  yesterday 
to  tile  ipiestion  whether  this  evidence  is  admissible.  Mr. 
Heiqiu'  llien  stated  his  nu'tliod  of  working;  liack  to  ISSIi.  lie 
works  back  in  a  ditl't'reiit  way  from  what  I  then  supposed  he 
woiibl;  so  that,  to  a  lar^e  extent,  he  lias  met  the  objections 
which  llion  jiresented  theiiiHelvt's  lo  my  mind,  lie  works 
back  by  making  <'omparisons  of  |irices,  labor  and  materials. 
I  must  say  that  1  liav«'  listened  lo  this  tistiniony  alleiitively, 
and  thai  it  has  had  some  w('i;;lit  upon  my  mind,  for  the  rea- 
son that  it  has  led  up  to  the  proposition  or  fad  tlial  lliere  was 
some  ;;ronnd  for  claiming  that  the  condition  of  lhin<;s  at 
A'icloria  was  peculiar.  If  this  was  the  case  of  the  trial  of 
the  value  of  a  vessel  at  Moston  or  New  York,  and  1  was  pre- 
siding, I  should  say  at  once  llial  the  testimony  could  not  b(> 
admitted.  Mat  the  condition  here  is  peculiar,  that  is,  it  is 
claimed  to  be  peculiar,  and  the  testimony  tends  lo  lead  n]i 
to  the  support  of  that  pro|iosilioii.  It  is  in  a  certain  sense 
like  j;eltiii<;  at  the  value  of  vessels  at  remote  jioinls,  ax  we  oe- 
casionally  have  lo  do,  and  where  it  is  llie  custom  to  <»pen  the 
door  very  widely  not  <inly  as  to  vessels,  bat  as  to  other  proji 
eriy — much  wider  tlian  we  would  open  it  in  v;eltin<r  at  the 
value  of  property  in  and  about  llie  lar^e  marls.  Il  is  on  that 
account  that  I  listened  to  this  evidence  wliich  came  in  yes- 
terday. I  tliink  conlracis  were  shown  as  late  as  IS!)(),  is'.tl 
and  perhaps  IS)»L'.  1  felt  that  this  teslimony  liad  some  rele- 
vancy. alliioii<jh  perhiijis  I  do  not  look  at  it  exactly  in  the 
same  way  as  does  .Iiiil>re  Kiiij;;  but  my  own  peisonai  view  of 
it  is  llial.  Willi  the  evidence,  we  luive  had  i|iiile  eiioii^ih  to 
enable  ns  to  iiii<lerstand  the  iieculiar  condition  liere.  if  there 
is  such.  I,  of  course,  should  yield  to  the  views  of  .Iiidjje 
Kill};  Willi  reference  lo  the  adiiiissibilil\  of  further  evidence 
in  this  direction,  if  counsel  desire  to  jmt  it  in;  althouj^h  I  fe«'l 
that  we  have  had  (piite  eiion^di.  The  only  thiiifj  I  have  to 
say  in  additiim  to  what  . Indite  Kinj;  has  sai<l  is,  lliat  I  of 
course  airree  witli  him  in  admiltinjr  tlis  evdeiice;  but  on  my 
own  behalf  my  nipression  would  be  that  we  have  h.id  ipiile 
enoiiffh  of  it  to  enable  us  to  understand  the  jieciiliar  condilion 
here,  if  thoro  be  such. 

Air.  Dickinson;—  I  have  just  a  word  to  say.  We  had  under- 
slood  on  our  side,  very  distinctly  from  the  r'ommissioneiH, 
lliat  the  examination  would  be  larjfely  in  the  hands  of  conn- 


!  !i 


2l6 


1  ■  I 


lO 


20 


30 


scl.  Allciilion  \v;is  callt'd  (o  ccihiin  parts  of  the  tcslimon.v 
as  to  wliirli  we  saw  clear  objection  from  oiii-  itoiiil  of  view- 
to  its  ('onipeleiK-.v;  and  upon  the  intimation  of  tlie  courl,  and 
for  tlie  ]Mir]iose  of  si-vii-.p;  Unie  in  ar;;nin^  objections,  we  did 
not  interpose  objections  to  tlie  testimony  which  we  deemed 
incompetent.  At  the  same  time  we  had  iu>  int*>ntion  of  aban- 
doning our  riftht.  after  the  close  of  this  class  t)f  testimony,  to 
move  to  strike  it  <uit,  or  to  arjfue  to  your  Honours  that  it 
was  incomp«'t('nt. 

The  rommissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — I  think 
that  is  always  open  to  you,  Mr.  IHckinson,  to  ar^^ue  as  t(»  its 
incompetency  at  the  tinal  :ir};nnu>ut. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — We  accept  tlie  rulings,  of  course,  and  an' 
entirely  satisfied  with  them,  as  they  will  ajiply  to  ns  later  on. 
as  well  as  to  onr  friends  <m  the  other  side. 

The  <'ommissioner  on  the  jtart  of  the  T'nited  States: — I 
think  there  is  a  iuisunderstandin^  on  the  ]iart  of  counsel.  Of 
c<uirsi'  we  are  all  feeliufj  our  way  to  a  certain  extent.  These 
objec.ions  that  wi'r«'  formally  brouj;ht  to  the  attention  of  the 
< 'Oniiuissioners  were  objections  relating  to  the  issues  hei*e, 
thai  is  to  say,  they  related  to  the  comix'tency  of  testinumy — 

The  Connnissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — <'lass  of 
t(  stimony. 

The  Connnissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  Slates: — Class 
of  testimony — tlu-  mass  of  testimony.  Take,  for  instance,  the 
(liiestlon  whether  we  should  hear  evidence  in  this  case  with 
reference  to  the  probable  catch  in  1SS7;  that  was  a  class  of 
testimony  brou^;ht  especially  to  our  attention.  Cpon  that,  of 
cour.-'e.  (he  ("onimissioners  sa\  that  it  would  not  d(»  to  riiie 
u]ion  it  until  we  lia<1  heard  the  tinal  ar^tuments;  but  as  t<» 
these  incidental  matters  that  conu'  n]>.  ihe  Commissioners 
have  taken  no  special  p<isilion  about  them  as  yet,  and  I  think 
this  is  the  tirst  time  that  we  have  had  occasion  to  rule  <lis- 
tinctly  upon  a  narrow  (piestion  of  the  admissibility  of  evi- 
dence. 

Mr.    Iteiipw: — I   am  agreed   with   my   learned   friends,   Mr. 
^o   ]«,.|,.,.j,  .|,„]  ^1,.    Modwcll,  dial  it  has  been  oui*  understandiufj 
of  Ihe  ruling  of  the  Conimissioners     heretofore,     that     tlu'y 
were  limiled  lo  the  very  tliintr  nuMitioned  by  your  Honour. 

The  Commissioner  on  Ihe  |»arl  of  Her  Majesty: — I  can  see 
notliiufi  in  what  has  been  sai<l  here  today  to  prevent  Mi\ 
IMckinson  ar}{uin<;  al  a  later  staife  that  the  evidence  now  (tf- 
fered  does  not  fui'uish  any  real  proof  of  that  which  retpiires 
to  be  proved;  namely,  the  value  of  Ihe  vessel.  II  is  still 
open  to  him.  il  seems  lo  me.  .\l  all  events  my  min<l  will  be 
CQ   open  to  any  arnnmenl  he  adduces  upon  Ihe  subject. 

IHrecl  examination  of  .Mr.  Clark  icsiimed  by  Mr.  Kei<pn>. 

(i- — You  slated,  .Mr.  Clark,  liie  contract  price  for  Ihe  vessel 
"N'icloria"  as  beiuff  !|>S,7i"iO?     A. — Ves.  sii'. 

Q.  — N\ill  you  say  whellier  il  was,  from  your  experience,  a 
fair  price  (u-  not?  A. — .\  fair  piice.  I  was  the  lowest  ten 
dei'er  anyway. 

(i.— Did  you  repiiseni  Ihe  value  of  the  vessel  fairly  then? 
A. —  I  think  so. 

(i- — You  built  it  under  cdntracl'.'     A. — Yes,  sir. 

<]■ — Will  you  say  what  il  included?  .V. —  Il  included  the 
hull  of  the  vessel,  spars,  slanilinji  rif,'j;in>;.  running  y;ear  and 
sails,  Iwo  anchors,  chains,  I  think  that  is  about  all.  N'o  lla>;s, 
no  side  lijrhls.  no  riding  li^'il.  "<•  loir  line,  lotf,  nothiuf;  of 
that  kind  that  was  e.xira. 

(i.— \o  onllll?       A.— No  sj-alinu  ooKlt. 

Q. — N'ow  you  say  that  you  built  Ihe  "lOnlerprise"  also  in 
the  same  year?     .\. — Yes,  sir. 


60 


A. — Ju8t  about  tlu'  same  tonnaji*'. 


lo 


30 


(^— Nor  issn? 

(^— X(»r  1SS4? 
(i.— Nor  1SS7? 
<i.— Nor  ISSS? 


217 

Q. — Slic  was  not  built  uiulor  coufract?     A. — No,  Hir. 

(2. — Uiiilt  for  your  own  use?     A. — I  built  her  for  in.vwlf. 

(^. — Do  vou  know  wliat  was  liie  cost  of  her?  A. —  In  tlio 
ncifflibouriuxKl  of  |!!MHI(I.  They  w«'r('  both  about  tlio  siinic 
class  of  vc'ssfls. 

il. — The  sanu'  (onnanc? 
sir. 

C^. — Now  will  you  say  if  the  ju-icos  of  vcssols  from  IH8(!  to 
1S!»(>  had  intn'ast'd  or  d«'(  reascd  at  Victoria?  A. — I  think 
sii^'htly  decreased;  I  hadn't  much  to  do  with  them  in  IMS*!, 
my  nioi'c  (han  to  work  as  a  jiuirneyman.  I  couldn't  delinite- 
ly  say  as  to  the  prices  in  IHSd;  slijilitly  deerwised  I  think. 

rross-examination  by  Mi'.  Dickinson. 

Q. — What  was  the  j»rice  of  buildin<;  such  a  ship  in  1S8(!? 
A.— I  didn't  build  any  in  1SS«. 

il. — l>o  you  know  anything  about  ii?  A. — Nothinp  more 
thiiU  to  work  amon;;  the  builders  here. 

H. — Were  there  any  built  in  IHHCt'!  A. — Not  to  my  know- 
h'dffc. 

Q. — Why  do  you  say  that  the  price  of  Ituilding  such  ships 
had  decreast'd  from  ISSfi'?  A.— Well.  T  think  from  what  I 
knew  about  the  material  that  it  had  slif^litly  decreased. 

ii. — .\ny  difference  in  waj,'<'s?  A. — No  difference  that  I  am 
aware  of. 

Q. — Well,  thei'e  was  no  buildiufj;  here  in  ISH(5  of     sealing 
ships  was  there'/      A. — No.  sir. 
A.— No.  sir. 
A. — I  don't  think  so. 
A. — Not  thiit  I  know  of. 
A. — No  sir,  not  that  I  know  of. 

Q. — You  don't  know  do  you  fnun  any  actual  buildiu};  of 
scaliufr  ships  whether  the  price  had  incrtased  fir  decreased 
up  lo  \HU'2'!  A. — I  think  there  was  «uie  schooner  luiilt  here 
iibout  18SH. 

(i. — Sealing  schooner'/  A. — I  think  so,  I  would  not  b«'  posi- 
tive. 

(.i. — You  are  not  positive  about  it.  of  any  ships  that  were 
built  of  this  class'/  A.— The  schooner  "Minnie"  was  built 
about  that  time. 

Q. — Has  that  been  in  your  mind  in  giving  your  testinuiny. 
as  to  increase  and  decrease'/  A. — Not  until  you  called  my 
;)ttenti(ui  to  it. 

ii. — Then  you  have  no  basis  on  which  you  estimate  an  in- 
crease or  decr<ase  in  the  cost  of  the  actual  building  of  a 
shi]»'/  A. — In  ISS"  I  was  in  the  rei)airiiig  business.  I  had  a 
'liai.  ,'  to  know  v.luit  material — 

ii.-  What  ma'.erial  you  put     into     rejiairs'/     A.— Lumber. 
and  IMC  lik( . 
50       tj. — I!ut  yor.  did  not  have  in  the  building  of  wealing  ships 
altogether  th.>  same  timber  that  you  used  in  repairing'/  .\. — 
Oh.  the  timbers  are  all  about  the  same. 

Q.— There  is  some  dilfereiice     in     cost      between     getting 
ii'Migh  tinilu'r  to  keeji  u]i  repairs,  and  enough  to  build  an  en- 
lire  new  ship'/     .\. — (),  ci'itainly. 

Q. — >'ou  cannot  tell  iinythiiig  about  tlie  cost  of  a  ship  in 
INSI.  Iss-).  1SS((  and  1SS7?  A.— (),  I  had  nothing  to  d«i  with 
lliem  at  that  time. 

f,Q       Redirect  examination  by  Mr.  Heique: 

Q. — III  the  answer  svhicli  riiu  have  given  to  the  last  ()ues- 
tion,  have  vou  in  mind  s-ealiag  ves.-iels  or  vessels  of  all  sorts"/ 
A. — I  iiieicly  answered  (he  <ineslion  that  I  had  nothing  to  d<» 
will)  siMlinir  vessels  at  thai  time.     I  was  repairing. 

ti.— Hut  in  IMv.-,,  in  ISMC.  and  all  alontr  to  this  dati'  yen 
lia\e  been  working  at  building  other  vess«'ls/  A. — Working 
with  I  he  contr  dors  here. 


40 


ir-^ 


■'ii'il" 


2i8 

Q. — And  tliiM'i'foi'c  von  liavf  hiul  i'xiKM'ii'iicc  as  to  Hit'  <-i)st 
of  sncli  v(  sscls?    A. — I  kiH'w  uboiil  whtxt  llic  cohI  of  material 

(2. — W<»iild  fliiit  cnabU'  yon  to  fix  a  value  as  1o  scalin;;  voh- 
scls — the  exiicriciice  that  von  have  had  all  alonfi  with  other 
veHselH?  A. — 1  know  the  ((wt  in  1S!I2  and  I  think  that  they 
sliflhtly  decreased.  I  wonld  say.  since  1SS(J. 

Q. — Hnt  I  atn  askinj;  yon  as  to  whether  the  exi)erience  you 
hav«'  had  in  tlu'  hnildin);  of  vessels  };«'nerally  wonld  lu'lp  yon 
lo  in  forming  an  opinion  as  to  the  value  and  cost  of  H(>alin(; 
schooners?    A. — Ortainly.  yes. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — If  the  court  jdease,  in  connection  with  the 
cross-examination  of  Mr.  llechtel.  who  produced  the  stub- 
book,  I  desire  with  the  consent  of  my  barni'd  friends  to  juit 
in  the  transcript  one  set  of  stubs. 

Mr.  Peters: — Hadn't  we  b 'tter  take  anotlu>r  set  too. 

]{y  aj.!;reenient  of  coniistl  the  followinir  samples  from  the 
20   stub-book  mentioned  are  made  a  part  of  the  record. 

"Xo.  4. — Date.  August  :{1.  IS!)");  William  l{env(m;  amount, 
f  11.(1(1." 

"Xo.  4.— Date,  ;{(»th  Sei)tember.  lSi>r>;  William  Uenyon; 
amount,  fll.dO." 

"Xo.  4.— Date,  :{Otli  November,  lS!>r>;  Willian.  !..v\<»., 
anumnt,  ^11. (»(»." 

"Xo.  (>.— Date,.  Aujjnst  ai,  1H*>5;  E.  (\  Dav  ;  ;  au^i.  1  ., 
f  11.0(1." 

"Xo.  fi.  -Date  September  ?A),  ISft.T;  E.  C.  Davis;  ani(»niit, 
3°  $11. (»(»." 

"Xo.  0.— Date,  .'Ust  October.  ISito;  E.  (\  Davis;  amount, 
*1 1.(10" 

It  is  admitted  by  counsel  that  there  are  others  of  the  same 
series  in  each  case,  and  tliat  the  above  are  simply  samples. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'liiteil  States: — Mr. 
J'eters,  can  you  iiifcu'in  the  Commissioners  when  you  will 
probably  close  this  case? 

40  ]Mr.  Peters: — We  are  about  ^oiiif;  into  the  evidence  of  prob- 
able catch.  That  will  take  <|uite  a  c(msiderable  time  and 
must,  by  its  nature,  be  a]»i»licable  to  a  nnmb<'r  of  other  cases. 
The  leiifith  of  time  which  it  will  take  will  dejiend  a  trood  deal 
njion  my  learned  friend's  cross-examinatimi.  but  it  will  take 
at  all  events  a  day. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — 5Iy  fiii-nd  can  torm  some  jud);meiit  of  my 
cross-examination  so  far. 

Mr.  Peters: — It  will  be  understood  that    of   conr.«e   a    fioo:' 
5°     deal  of  the  evidence  fjiven  in  this  case  will  by  its  nature  be 
ajvjdicable  to  otliei-  cases,  and  the  other  cases  will  be  very 
considerably  slunter  than  this  one. 

iVt  tins  point  the  Commissioners  ros*-. 


lo 


219 

Commissioners  under  tbe  Convention  of  February  8,  1896,  between 
Great  Britain  and  the  United  States  of  America. 

Chambers  of  the  Legislative  Assembly, 

At  Victoria,  December  7,  1896. 

At  1:45  the  foiiiiuisHioncrs  took  their  scats. 

Ml".  I'etoi's: — T1h>  riiitcd  States  (Jovernment  lias  furnished 
lis  with  ( opies  of  ci'i'tain  ('(HresiKHidence  relating  to  the  seiz- 
ure of  the  vessel  "Carolena"  between  the  Treasury  l)ei»art- 
iiieiit  and  the  ditfen-nt  otiicers  of  tlie  vessels,  and  also  the 
otlieers  at  Sitka,  certain  parts  of  which  1  jiropose  to  put  In. 
and  I  will  read  them  to  the  ("oniniissioners.  The  copies  I 
Jiropose  to  put  in  are  c<ipies  certltied  by  the  proper  authori- 
ties of  the  I'nitt'd  States  (Jovernineut. 

First  is  a  document  fr«Hn  (icorjje  K.  Tin>;lev,  Treasury 
Ajti'nt,  to  the  Secretary  of  the  Treasury  at  Washington,  dated 
Aufiust  18,  1880. 

^^  Next  is  a  letetr  from  Oeorge  K.  Tingley  to  Honourable  C 
S.  Fail-child,  Acting  Secretary  of  the  Treasury,  dated  August 
IS,  1S,S(). 

Next  is  a  letter  from  C  A.  Abbey,  captain  of  the  T'nited 
States  Revenue  Marine,  to  the  Secretary  of  the  Treasury, 
dated  August  T,  188G, 

Mr.  Dickinson- — May  I  ask  your  object  in  reading  this  testi- 
mony? The  reascm  I  eii()uii-e  is  that  I  supposed  the  fact  of 
the  seimire  was  found  by  the  Paris  Arbitration. 

^         Mr.  Peters: — There  are  several  facts  that  come  out. 

The  ('oinniissioner  on  the  \y.\ri  of  Her  Majesty: — The  first 
letter  you  read  related  simply  to  the  fiu-t  of  the  seizure. 

Mr.  Peters: — It  is  important  to  show  the  date  when  the 
fact  of  the  seizure  came  to  the  knowledge  of  the  United 
Stales  tJovernment;  that  may  be  material.  Also  the  letters 
showing  the  date  of  the  seizure,  and  there  are  other 
facts  through  this  t-orrespondence  relating  to  the 
40  opjiortunities  they  had  for  (-atching  seals  at  that 
time,  and  also  relating  to  h<iw  the  prisoners, 
as  tliey  were  4-alled  were  treated;  also  the  outfit 
taken  from  the  vessel's;  als<i  tjie  olijet-t  for  which  the  seizure 
was  made.  The  next  one  I  jiropose  to  read  is  a  letter  from  ('. 
.\.  Abbey,  (-ajitain  of  one  of  the  vess«'Is,  dated  Si'jitember  .1, 
ISM(i.  to  the  ihinourable.  the  Secretary  of  the  Treasury. 

II  ajijiears,  I  may  say  that  these  h'tters  are  not 
tli(>  full  rejiort,  but  siinjile  extriu-ls,  such  jiarts  as  bear 
ujion  the  iiarticular  cases. 


50 


r,o 


Tile  next  one  is  a  letter  from  ('.  \.  .\bbev  to  the  Secretary 
of  the  Treasury,  dated  Sejitember  22.  ISSO". 

'iXtrai-ts  front  the  log  of  the  revenue  steamer  "Corwin." 
.<MSon  of  ISSO. 

Tli(>re  are  s(>vei-al  other  letters  which  relate  to  another  jiart 
of  the  case,  liut  which  I  think  I  will  jiut  in  (onveniently 
lieie.    Tliey  relate  to  the  catch— probable  catch — for  tlu>  venr 

ISH7. 

Next  is  a  letter  from  L.  (5.  Shejiard,  cajitain  of  on(>  of  the 
lUtleiH,  dated  August  11.  1SS7,  to  Honourable  Charles  S. 
Fail-child,  Secretary  of  the  Treasury. 

Next  is  a  letter  from  M.  \.  Healy,  cajitain  of  one  of  the  cut- 
ters, to  the  Secretary  of  tlie  Treitsury,  dated  August  'J7,  1SS7. 
.\lso  extracts  from  the  log  <if  the  r-'venue  steamer  for  the  sea- 
son of  1HS7,  dated  August  LTi,  18S7. 


,iM....i;,:' 


,'l.,f 


220 


.'<i»«j«i- 


10 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


If 


Mr.  Mickinson: — I  wcmld  like  to  ask  my  friciulH  if  tlu'ic  is 
iuiyfliliifj;  about  thr  "('aroh-na''  in  tills  (•orrcsinindciicc.  1 
siilnnit  tliat.  if  not,  tlic  corii'spond*'!!*!'  cnii  liavc  no  Icfjiti 
mate  bcarinj;  on  tlic  issnc  licrc.  My  friend  says  tlicrc  is 
nothinj;  in  tlic  corfcsitondciic*'  it'fcrrinji  exactly  to  the  ''('ar- 
olena."  However,  I  will  take  no  time  except  to  call  the 
court's  attention  to  if. 

Ml*.  Peters: — We  claim  in  this  case — whether  rifjhtfully  or 
wronfffully  will  afterwards  be  a  matter  for  arnnment;  that 
we  have  the  rif;lit  to  claim  for  the  itrospective  catch  that 
would  have  been  made  in  1SS7.  \\\>  may  b«'  rifjlit  in  that 
cimtention.  and  we  may  not;  and  I  think  the  court  will  see 
the  advisibility  of  allowinjt  that  matter  to  stand.  We  are 
sini])ly  now  showiufi  from  their  own  lofj  what  certain  vesselx, 
both  American  and  Canadian,  caufjht  in  1SS7.  We  c.'iu  }jet 
no  better  evidence  tlian  the  actual  statement  of  their  own 
oflrtcers  on  that  point,  and  that  is  our  object  in  tenderinft  his 
evidence. 

The  (Commissioner  (»n  the  part  of  the  Tnited  States: — The 
rij^hts  of  the  cotmsel  for  the  United  States  are  fully  reserved. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — This  is  just  a  trille  different,  youi'  Hon- 
our. As  to  the  amount  of  seals  found,  there  is  no  evidence 
that  they  were  caujjht;  they  may  have  been  purchased  of  the 
Indians  in  accordance  with  the  custom.  I  sup]>os('d  that 
when  your  Honours  ruled  upon  that  question  it  would  be  np- 
<m  the  direct  testimony  of  the  catch. 

Mr.  Peters--: — We  will  attempt  to  make  those  jtoints  certain 
as  to  whether  they  were  or  were  not  seized  in  Behrinjj;  Sea, 
as  we  jio  alonjr. 

The  <'oinmissloner  on  the  ])art  of  the  T'nitcd  States: — T 
understand  that  there  is  this  additional  objection,  that  is  to 
say:  the  iiuestion  raised  the  other  day  was  wlieUiei-  you  woi.'d 
be  jtermitted  to  frive  evidence  showinji  ])r(ibable  catch  in 
1)^S7  with  reference  (o  the  "<'arolen;i."  The  attorneys  for  the 
United  States,  passinjr  Ity  this  jioint,  say  that,  even  if  yoii 
are  iillowed  to  fjive  evidence  of  thai  thaiacler,  this  evidence 
Is  not  relevant,  and  has  no  wei<;ht  for  that  inirposc,  tieiause, 
non  constat,  these  seals  wer<'  captured  by  these  v(>ssels.  I 
can  only  say  what  I  said  the  other  <lay  that,  ho  fai"  as  I  am 
concerned,  I  rcffrct  exceedinjjly  that  we  are  liotheicd  with 
evidence  of  this  secondaiy  <lass,  when  I  i)resunie  Miat  ihe 
counsel  for  Her  Majesty  has  i»riinary  evidence  of  the  most 
satisfactory  <  haracter. 

Mr.  I'etei's: — I  have  i>rimary  evidence  wilh  reyard  to  some 
vessels,  and  wilh  regard  to  ethers  I  hue  not.  For  instance, 
here  I  find  il  slated  that  certiun  American  vessels  weiH'  seized 
at  that  time,  I  have  no  evidence  with  regard  lo  those  vessels 
iis  to  what  they  caujjht  oi'  where  they  caught  it. 

The  CommissioiH'r  on  the  jiart  of  the  United  States:— It 
will  jro  In  as  heretofore,  it  beiiijf  nnderst(MMl  that  the  I'nileil 
States  reserves  objections  on  this  fuither  jfround  in  addition 
to  what  was  sjiecitied  llu'  otlu'r  day. 

(Mr.  Peters  continues  readin;i  from  lo>{.) 

The  Commissioners  ordered  that  all  the  forenoiiifj  pai)ers 
read  bv  Mr.  Peters  be  printed  as  Exhibit  No.  IT),  Claim  No. 
1,  C.P. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  wish  to  call  the  at(«'ntl(in  of  the  coi'rt  now 
to  an  extract  from  the  r<'p(»rt  of  the  (Jovernor  of  Alaska,  for 
the  fiscal  year  ISMtt.  made  to  Ihe  <iov<'rninent  of  the  United 
States,  and  published  by  the  (lovernmeiit.  On  pajfe  47  the 
followint;  rei»orl  is  lonlained  undei'  Ihe  head  of  the  "Prolec- 
tlon  of  Fur  Seal  and  Sea  Oiler": 


221 

'•Tlic  ciij)!!!!-!'  of  <»ii»'  Aiiicriciiii  iiiid  thrcf  ItritiHh  vi-sscls 
\vliili>  cnpip'd  ill  liiltiii^  skills  in  thv  inliind  wiitcrs  of  AliiHkii 
hy  flit'  Hi'VciiiU'  Cutter  "Corwin"  lias  no  doubt  Ih'cii  fully  re- 
jiortt'd  by  her  zcaloiiH  and  iiu'ritoHoiiH  coiuinaiidor.  ('apt.  (■. 
A.  Abcy.  to  the  projx'r  dcitartiiicnt.  and  but  for  tlit'  fact  tliat 
lilt'  ofticcrH  and  crews  were  brouf^lit  to  Sitka,  and,  top'thcr 
with  tlu'  (iijitured  i»ro|K'rty  turned  over  t(>  the  I'nited  States 
marshal,  the  siibj«'<t  iiiinlit  not  be  considered  one  within  the 
])roviiice  of  his  report.     The  masters  and  mates  of  the  sevral 

lo  v<ssels  were  trii'd  at  a  special  term  of  the  district  court  and 
all  coiiviited  and  senteined  to  brief  terms  of  imprisonment 
mid  thre  of  them  to  payment  of  fin<'s  raiifrinf;  from  if'.WO  to 
t'.'dO  each.  The  terms  of  imprisonment  of  all  save  the  master 
of  the  Aiiiericjin  vessel  havinij  very  nearly  expired  on  the 
•J!ltli  of  September,  on  the  iiifjcnt  retpK'st  and  recommenda- 
tion of  the  honourable  jiidp'  of  the  district  court  before 
whom  the  convictions  were  had,  I  granted  respites  in  the  sev- 
.  ral  cases,  save  the  exception  noted,  and  the  prisoners  wenj 
released  and  allowed  to  «lepart  for  their  several  homes.  They 

20  wcic  without  means,  and,  had  they  been  detained  until  the 
cxiiiration  of  their  st'nteiues,  would  have  become  objects  of 
charity  aiiionjf  stranjjers  until  the  sailing  of  the  next  monthly 
stt'anier." 


Alexander  R.  Milne  called  on  the  jiart  of  Great  Britain 
was  sworn. 

Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Peters* 

Q. — You  reside  at  N'ictoria?     A. — I  do. 
30       <i. — And  have  for  how  many  years?     A. — .S2  years. 

(i. — What  official  position  do  you  occupy  here?  A. — I  am 
Collector  of  Customs  for  the  jiort. 

Q. — For  how  many  years  have  you  been  Collector  of  Ous- 
loms?     A. — Seven  years. 

(i. — Prior  to  that  were  you  emjiloyed  by  the  Custom's  De- 
jiartiiient?     A. — I  was. 

(■i. — For  how  many  years?     A. — From  the  year  1K74. 

(]. — In  ditferent  cajtacities?     A. — In  dilferent  capacities. 

(l. — In  the  ('ustom's  Department  at  Victoria?     A. — At  Vic- 
■i°  toria. 

(.y — Are  you  now  the  custodian  of  all  the  pajiers  conm'cted 
with  the  registiation  of  shi|)i»in};  at  Victoria?  A. — I  am  the 
rcfjistrar  of  shi]i]iin.!;. 

ii. — How  lonji  have  you  been  retjistrar  of  sliippiu};?  A. — 
Seven  years. 

Q. — .\iid  as  reffistrar  of  shippiiifj;  have  you  the  control  and 
custody  of  all  tlie  otticial  records  connected  with  the  regis- 
tration of  sliipjtint;?     A. — I  have. 

ii. — Have  you  looked  over  your  books  for  the  purpose  of 
5°  !iscertaiiiiiiK  from  the  years  ISSti  and  1SS7  how  many  schoon- 
ers were  actually  re;i;istered  at  the  port  of  N'ictoria.  or  were 
available  at  llu>  jiort  of  X'ictoria?     A. —  I  have. 

(i. —  H('feiriii<>  to  the  certilied  copy  from  your  book  which  I 
liand  you.  is  that  a  correct  statement  from  your  book?  (Wit- 
ness examines  statement.) 

(i. — Tliiit  is  made  uji  from  your  records?     A. — It  is. 

(i.--Aiid  for  what  years?     A.— 1SS(!  and  1.'S7. 

(i. — What  does  it  show?     A. — It  shows  the  available  ves- 
sels that  could  be  ada])ted  and  were  prosecutiii);;  the  sealing 
''"  industry. 

ti. — That  were  available  at  ^'ictoria?  A. — That  were 
available  at  Victoria. 

<i. — In  those  years?     .\. — For  coasting  and  sealing. 

♦i- — -Vnd  does  that  give  a  fair  statement  of  tli(>  actual 
shcooiiers  at  that  time  available  for  those  piirjioses?  A. — It 
does. 

.Mr.  Peters: — 1  propose  to  put  that  document  in  evidence. 


m 


'      1 


i!: 


\l>   , 


mi 


!  i 


iih  : 


ii 


il  Hli ;  lii!  !  i 


ppp"wiw*p 


To  wifiU'SH: — Tliis  is  coiiiiiikMl  b.v  .vou? 
dvv  my  diirction. 


A. — C«iiii|)iK>«l  un- 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


vt 


so 


60 


Q. — The  sdiooiU'i-H  tliat  .voii  have  incut ioiicd  luTo  arc 
M«-h<>oiH'i'H  running;  from  about  14  touH  up  to  souu'tliiujj;  over 
100.     1  m'v  oui'  luM'i'  as  liifili  as  124?     A. — That  is  so. 

ii. — And  thoH«'  art'  all  the  srhooutTs  of  that  class  available* 
iu  the  years  1SS(J  iiud  KSMT  at  N'ictoiia?  A. — That  were  uuit- 
itblc  for  that  industry. 

(}. — At  that  tiuu',  iu  18S(>  aud  1KS7,  was  tlu'i-e  any  othei- 
port  of  refristration  iu  the  province  of  Itritish  Columbia  ex- 
cept Vicl(U"ia'.'  A. — I  think  not,  1  am  not  (piite  certain  (Ui 
that  point. 

Q. — There  are  more  now?    A. — Tlu're  are  two  more  now. 

Q. — You  can  nuike  sure  of  that  fact,  can  y<tu  not?  1 
thou(;ht  you  were  certain.  A. — O,  yes,  it  is  my  im])ression 
that  there  were  not.  I'p  to  the  year  ISHO  I  think  Westmin- 
ster was  only  an  out-port  of  this  port. 

Q. — Now  this  statement  you  have  here  indicates,  does  it 
not,  the  tonnaf^e  and  name  of  the  vessel?  A. — Tonnage  and 
name  of  the  vessel. 

Q. — Does  it  show  where  she  was  built?      A. — Yes. 

Q.— And  when?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — And  states  when  she  was  rejristered  at  Victoria?  A. 
— And  states  when  she  was  repistered  at  \'ictoria. 

Q. — That  is  all  the  information  it  gives?      A. — I  think  so. 

Q. — That  is,  the  rig,  nniuber  of  tons,  where  built,  when 
built,  and  when  registered  at  Victoria?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Of  course  the  infonuation  as  to  where  iiuilt  aud  when 
built  you  took  from  papers  that  would  be  brought  to  you  from 
wherever  the  vessel  canu'?      A. — Wherever  she  eanu'  from. 

Q. — Statement  offered  iu  evidence  marked  "Claim  No.  1, 
Exhibit  No.  Ifi,  <}.  «." 

Cross  examination  by  5[f.  Dickinson: 

Q. — There  is  nothing  on  here  (referring  to  statement)  to  in- 
dicate that  she  is  for  sealing,  is  there?  A. — There  is  a  no- 
tation in  the  nuirgin. 

Q. — And  whert!  did  yon  get  that,  from  your  official  records? 
A. — Prom  our  oflicial  records. 

Q. — Do  your  oHicial  records  indicate  that  the  ship  is  a  seal- 
er? A. — It  dosen't  indicate  that  she  cleared  for  a  sealing 
voyage.  It  indicates  in  the  manner  of  entering  and  clearing 
that  she  engaged  for  a  sealing  voyage. 

Q. — That  yon  get  from  tlie  clearance.  There  is  nothing  on 
the  register  to  indicate  whether  she  is  a  sealer  or  not?  A. — 
No. 

Q. — Only  from  the  clearanc*'?  A. — Only  from  the  clear- 
ance. 

Q. — And  yon  have  noted  those  that  ch-ared  merely'  for 
coasting,  and  only  cleared  for  coasting  and  sealing?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

(i, — Where  there  is  lut  steam,  oi'  jiartially  steam,  vessels  en- 
gaged in  se'iling?  A. — in  the  years  ISSti  and  18H7,  there 
were  no  steam  vessels  engage  1  in  sealing. 

Q. — Nor  any  partially  fitted  with  steam?  A. — Noiu',  not 
that  year. 

Q. — Now  you  have  not  included  in  this,  I  assume,  Mr. 
Milne,  anything  but  ships  of  llritish  registry?  A.— British 
register. 

Q. — W»'re  Autericau  ships  reported  to  you  when  they  en- 
tered this  p<u-t?      A. — Always, 

Q. — And  I  suiipose  (here  wen'  uumy  American  ships  report- 
«'d  here,  iu  addition  t«»  those  of  Itritish  register  for  this  period? 
.\. — Not  during  those  yi'ars. 

Q.— No  ships  rei»orted  in  1«S0  or  ISS"?  A.— O,  yes,  a  few, 
not  nmny. 


233 


.      » 


10 


:!o 


40 


Q.— JIavc  you  any  record  of  (luiHf  for  IHSCi  mid  1887?    A. 

^^■<'  have. 

(i.— Will  .voii  kindl.v  (;ive  ns  a  report  of  those?  A. — I  will. 
witli  ph'asure. 

(i.— Were  tin-re  any  other  vessels  hei-c  at  \'ietoria,  aside 
from  these  that  were  refjistered.  that  were  adajtted  for  that 
jjiirpose.  or  could  be  adaj»ted  for  that  jiurpose?  A.— No, 
none  whatever;  there  were  only  small  vessels,  4,  rt,  (5,  and  8 
Ions. 

(2.— Uiit  you  do  not  assiimo  to  give  here,  any  vessels  exeept 
tho.se  that  have  been  cleared  for  coasting,  or  coasting  and 
sealing?      A.— That  Is  all. 

Q- — This  statement  does  not  purport,  does  it,  to  give  all 

the  vessels,  but  only  the  vessels  that  had  cleared?       A. I 

think  it  gives  all  the  vessels,  with  the  exception  of  a  few,  that 
were  under  nine  tons. 

Q.— Does  it  give  the  name  of  any  vessel  that  did  not  take  a 
clearance  for  coasting,  or  for  coasting  and  sealing?  A  — 
That  report? 

Q.— Yes?      A.— No. 

Q.— How  do  you  know  that  there  were  any  vessels  register- 
<'d  in  the  jxtrt  that  did  not  take  clearance''  for  coasting,  or 
for  coasting  and  sealing?  A.— Well,  it  is  part  of  our  regula- 
tions, if  they  dei)art  without  clearance,  coastwisi,  they  are 
amenable  to  the  law. 

Q.— Hut  might  there  not  be  vessels  in  the  port  that  did  not 
dear  during  the  years  I88(>  and  18S7  for  coasting  and  sealing? 
-^•— I'liless  they  were  going  not  further  than  our  inland  wat- 
ers. 

(i.— There  might  be  such  vessels?  A.— Snmll  ones,  4  and 
."  tons. 

Q. — And  might  there  not  be  vessels  lying  here  in  1886  and 
IS87  that  did  not  clear  for  coasting  or  for  coasting  and  seal- 
ing?     A. — No. 

(.i. — How  do  you  know? 
so  keen. 

i}. — Hut  you  Know  that  outside 
side  of  the  office 

Q. — You  have  no  official  record  beyond  the  vessels  that 
cleiwed  for  coaMling.  or  for  coasting  and  si-aling?  A. — We 
assume. 

y. — .lust  answer  that  (juestion.  whether  you  have  anything 
which  gives  you  the  names  of  any  vessels  except  those  that 
were  cleared  for  coasting,  or  for  coasting  and  sealing?  A. — 
We  have  the  nanu's  of  vessels  that  may  c'uter  the  port  this 
.ear.  and  may  nor  depart  for  five  years — lie  continuously  in 
the  bone-yard.  When  ready  to  depart  they  get  their  clear- 
ances. 

Q. — 1  think  your  data  here  does  not  give  the  date  of  the 
clearance.  d<tes  it.  in  1881!  and  1887?  A. — No,  it  does  n(»t 
give  the  dat»'  of  clearance.  It  wasn't  prejmred  with  that  ob- 
ject. 

Redirect  exauiimition  bv  Mr.  I'eters: 


A. — The  demand  for  vessels  was 
of  vour  office?      A. — Out- 


I 


234 


Q. — The  Kti'jiin  scImioiuth  art'  iiiiirktd  mid  (1istiiif;iii^lK><1  on 
HiiH  list?    A.— Yt'H. 

(i. — TluTf  a|)]u'iir  to  bo  Hcvi'ral,  the  "Doliiliin."  flic  "Anna 
lU'fk,"  till'  "Thornton,"  so  that  tlu-rc  wi-ic  three  on  this  list. 

Hir  Hibbert  Tiii>|ier: — Th«'  "(Sraee"  \n  on  there  to«t? 


Mr.  IN'torw: — She  in  not  marked  "Hteaiii. 
liHt. 


She  is  on   (he 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


T'! 


SO 


60 


To  witneBH: — Von  were  abo  asked  by  Mr.  DiekiiiHon  as  to 
whether  there  nii^ht  not  be  other  vessels  that  iiia.v  not  have 
cleared,  and  nia.v  not  have  "jot  on  your  n cord,  I  want  you 
to  answer  this  (luestion  from  your  own  knowledge;  do  you 
know,  or  do  yon  not  know,  whether  (his  is  the  list  of  t\w 
sehooners  that  were  aetiially  here  at  tliat  (inu*?  A. — They 
were  all  on  the  rejiistry  books.  They  are  not  eaneelled,  many 
of  them,  to  this  day. 

Q. — And  were  there  any  others  not  on  the  repister?  A. — I 
don't  know  of  any  others.     This  was  taken  from  the  reeord. 

Q. — Exeejit  small  ones?     A. — Small  vessels. 

Q. — I  iiieun  to  say  i-xeejit  small  vessels,  S  or  1()  tons?  A. 
— That  is  all,  we  do  not  call  pleasure  boats,  and  boats  of 
eifjht  and  nine  tons. 

(i. — I  mean  vessels  suitable  for  sealing;;  does  this  list  in- 
eliide  them?    A. — That  includes  them  all,  so  far  as  I  know. 

Q. — In  making  nji  this  list  I  think  you  have  not  put  in  any 
larjje  ships?  A. — The  prin<-ipal  vessels  of  this  port,  larger 
than  those  vessels,  are  all  steamers. 

(J. — You  began  to  make  a  statement  to  Mr.  Dickinson, 
which  you  did  not  (juit*'  ciuiiplete,  with  regard  to  there  be- 
ing a  demand  for  schooners  at  this  time.  What  were  you 
about  to  say,  Mr.  Milne?  A.— In  18Sfi  and  1H87  the  value  of  the 
sealing  industry  began  to  be  ap]»reciated;  consequently  jieo- 
ple  wanted  to  invest  their  capital  in  vesst?ls  here,  every  avail- 
able craft  was  jmrchased  that  I  am  aware  of.  The  'Tar- 
ileiia"  and  vessels  of  her  class  were  engaged  in  other  indus- 
tries before  1SS«  and  1887.     In  188(;  she  was  a  pilot  boat. 

(J. — 188(>  is  the  year  she  went  sealing?  A. — Prior  to  that 
she  was  a  jiilot. 

Re-cross-examiuation  by  Mr.   Dickinson: 

Q. — 1  will  ask  a  question  on  that  new  matter,  if  you  ])lease. 
I  believe  you  w«'re  not  engaged  yourself  in  the  sealing  busi- 
ness? A. — I  have  no  interest,  nor  ever  had,  directly  or  in- 
directly, in  any  vessel,  boat,  or  sliij). 

il. — No  (me  came  to  ask  you  to  purchase  any?  A. — Non«' 
whatever. 

(.}. — Or  to  enquire  of  you  whether  yon  knew  there  was  any 
for  sale?  A. — I  don't  n'member  that  they  did;  someone 
might  have  asked  me  casuallv,  ofli(  iailv  I  know  nothing  about 
it. 

ii. — The  "Favorite"  was  a  sealing  schooner  before  that, 
wasn't  she?  A. — The  "Favoritt>,"  before  engaging  in  th<' 
tealiiig  indiistrv,  used  to  make  yearly,  and  I  don't  know  but 
semi-yearly,  trips  to  Honolulu. 

ii. — Engaged  in  sealing?  A. — Engaged  in  bringing  up  mol- 
asses. 

(J. — Was  she  engaged  in  sealing?  A. — No,  not  that  I  am 
aware  of. 

(i—l'iior  to  18S(i?    A.— Prior  to  1880—1  don't  think  so. 

Q. — In  18S(i  was  she  cm  this  list  of  schooners?  .\. — I  think 
she  wiis  engaged  in  sealing  in  l88(i. 

Q. — Will  you  lie  good  enough  to  see  if  you  tind  the  "Favor- 
ite" there  in  1880?      A.— You  said  jirior  to  1880. 

(J.— Well  T  say  in  188(i?  A.— In  1880  she  was  engaged  in 
sealing. 


<i.— You  rtiid  Iht  ii;iiiic  (litTf?  A. — (Kxiiiiiiiiiii^r)  I  think 
sii;  ycH,  IIh'I'i'  il  is. 

(/— Vdii  iiiiKlc  a  rt'|Mtr(.  I  tliiiik,  Mr.  Miliic,  I  liuvc  not  tlic 
(iii;;iniil  to  sliow  von.  but  1  sliow  von  n  Htatrnirnt  in  volnnic 
r.  AMK'iiciin  Kc-I'rint,  "ApjH-ndix  M  nnd  4,  to  ons«'  (}.H."  I  am 
niidint;  from  \y.\nr  :i!M,  top  piiyinii,  '.i'l'.i  marf-finul  pji^niif;.. 
Iliivf  yon  niii(l«'  ti  Htatrnicnt  to  tliiH  t-tlVct,  .Mr.  .Milne:  "Tlu' 
following  vchscIh  wen*  fupi^cd  on  tlic  wcwt  coast  as  scalcfs 
in  tlic  years  1SH2  and  1SS;(,  bnt  wliirli  did  not  enter  Itelirinf; 
10  Sea:  Seliixmei's  "Favonrite,"  'Alfred  AdaniH.'  'Anna  Ueek,' 
■Itolphin,'  '(Sraee,'  'Onward,"  'Thornton,'  '\V.  \\  Sayward,' 
'Klack  IManiond.'"      A. — I  think  I  nnide  tlnit  statement. 

(i. — That  was  eoi-reot?     A. — I  think  ho. 

l]. — Did  you  also  state  that  in  the  yeai'  1MH4  the  schooner 
".Mary  Pollen,"  of  Victoria.  Hritish  Columhia,  fitted  out  at  San 
I-'iancisco  with  a  crew  of  1(t  men  to  hunt  seals  aionfj  tlie  west 
coast?  A. — I  reniemlier  of  makin;;  a  statement  that  slie  had 
cleared  for  a  seaiin^  voyage;  I  can't  say  now  from  memory. 

Q.— In  1SS4,  two  yoars  before  188(5?  A.— I  tliink  tliat  was 
20  the  first  year  tliey  entered  Uehring  Sea. 

Q. — You  stated,  I  think,  tlnit  slie  entered  Beliring  Sea  about 
the  flfttH'nth  of  June?      A. — I  tliink  so. 

Q.  -  And  left  at  the  end  of  August,  the  same  year.  Tliat 
is  1884,  isn't  it?      A.— 1884,  I  think  I  made  tlmt  statement. 

Jlr.  Peters: — You  miglit  read  the  rest  of  tliat  sentence. 

Mr. — Dickinson: — If  you  would  like  it.  ''The  voyaf.'e  was 
satisfactory  to  owner  and  crew;  they  jiroseouted  their  le;;iti- 
mate  and  peaceful  voyag«^  upon  tlie  high  seas  without  any 
interference  from  anyone."      Is  that  what  you  want? 


30 


40 


Mr.  Peters:— Tlianks. 

Q.— In  1883  you  reported  that  the  "Itfary  Ellen"  and  "Favo- 
rite" entered  Beliring  Sea,  1  think?      A. — I  think  I  did. 

Q. — And  you  reported  that  a  number  of  vessels  were  added 
to  the  fleet  in  the  following  year,  188(!?      A. — Y'es. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Would  you  like  the  rest  of  that  paragraph, 
.Mr,  IVters? 

5Ir.  Peters : — Y'es. 


Mr.  Dickinson: — I  am  going  to  put  it  all  in  in  time;  there 
are  some  reflections  upon  the  seizure  of  the  "Carolena"  which 
for  the  same  reason  maybe  yon  would  like. 

Q. — Now  did  yon  also  report  that  about  the  year  1*>7.S  and 
187i(,  s(!hooners  belonging  to  the  port  o."  Victoria,  British 
Columbia,  began  to  extend  their  voyages  seaward,  iM.-d  the 
migration  of  the  seals  became  better  und»'rstood,  that  ^  hooji- 
ciH  cruising  soiitlu'rly  in  the  spring  months  would  meet  the 
returning  seals  bound  northward;  that  at  ih's  time  the  fol- 
50  lowing  schoners  were  engaged  in  the  traflic:  "Thornton," 
".\iiiia  Beck."  "Favorite,"  "Onward" — page  :{!>.'?,  top  paging, 
■'!:'»8.  marginal?  A. — W«'ll,  before  answering  tliat  (leust'on. 
these  vessels  were  engaged,  portions  of  the  year,  visiting 
stations  on  the  West  Coast. 

Q. — You  made  that  rejjort  in  that  language?  A. —  I  think 
so;  I  think  I  made  that  report. 

Q. — Now  I  will  ask  you,  wliile  you  are  on  the  stand,  if  you 
will  be  good  enough  to  look  at  that,  and  see  if  it  is  an  accu- 
rate statement.  mad«'  by  yon.  comnieiicing  page  '.VX\.  .lust 
look  it  throuirh  and  see  if  yon  made  it.  .V. — (Examining.) 
In  legard  to  the  qut>stion  abont  the  "Favorite"  as  to  which 
you  enquire;  previous  to  her  engaging  fully  in  the  sealing  in- 
dustry she  was  sailing  between  here  and  Honolulu,  and  occas 
ioiially  would  take  cargoes  from  hero  to  the  west  coast,  and 
when  it  was  not  the  sealing  season  on  the  coast,  or  visiting 
sealing  stations,  she  was  likely  to  be  sent  down  to  TTonolulu 
to  bring  up  cargo. 

13 


60 


:l!!i!i''!': 


!26 


MIM 


]{"i 


lO 


20 


Mr.  IHrkiiiHoii: — \<i\v,  .Mr.  l{<-|)(iil<'i.  will  ,voii  rciul  tlu> 
(lucslion?      (iiicsHoii  I'tad. 

Wltiu'ss: — (Kxiiiiiiiiinn  ri-port.)  i>,  I  tliiiik  ho,  williout  <(»u- 
sullinj^  iny  own  < opit'H,  I  fiiiicy  IIiIh  is  all  rifilit. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  oDVi'  ns  a  \n\vi  of  the  cross  cxaniination 
of  Mr.  Milne,  the  statement  which  he  says  is  the  correct  re- 
port. 

The  Coniniissioner  on  the  pait  of  the  I'nited  Slates: — Mr. 
Dickinson  have  yon  [ml  this  into  the  case? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  ]>iopose  to  as  a  part  of  the  crosH examina- 
tion, yonr  Hononr. 

Mr.  I'eters: — May  it  phase  the  Commissioners,  ooncerninn 
the  (inestion.  jtut  by  my  learned  friend,  I  have  no  objection 
to  it  whatever;  bnt.  if  put  in  in  this  way,  possibly,  on  looking; 
thronnh  this  report  can-fnlly,  there  may  be  something;  I 
would  like  to  draw  the  attention  of  this  witness  to. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  i>art  of  the  I'nited  States: — Yon 
want  to  reserve  the  '.'inht  to  re-e.xamine  him  aboat  it  at  some 
future  time. 

Ml'.  Peters: — Yes.  your  Honour. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — This  statement,  if  yonr  Honours'  please,  I 
desire  to  have  !i;o  in  now  as  a  part  of  the  cross-examination. 

The  Comnnssioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — It  is 

rather  the  opinion  <»f  the  Commissioners,  Mr.  Dickinson,  that, 

30    as   it    comes   in    only     incidentally,  and  is  not  a  i»art  of  the 

foundation  of  the  case,  it  is  not  necessary  to  re-print  it.     Do 

the  Counsel  desire  to  have  it  re  printed? 

Mr.  Dii'kinson- — We  desire  to  have  it  no  into  the  appendi.x, 
yotir  Honour,  in  connection  with  this  schedule  that  has  been 
put  in. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  Slates: — Can 
the  counsel  furnish  the  Secretary  with  a  cojty  of  it,  so  it  can 

be  marked  as  an  exhibit? 
40 

Mr.  Dickinson: — 'i  es,  your  Honour. 

The  Connnissioncr  on  the  jiart  of  the  I'nited  States: — This 
will  ^'o  in  as  e.ic'iibit  No.  J,  Claim  1,  V.  S. 

Mr.  Dickinson; — The  pai-ts  I  call  attention  to  are  at  page ;{!(;{ 
ti)i»  i»atrin}r,  page  :{!tt.  omittinjj;  the  four  paraftrajdis  on  that 
pajre.  the  'ast  two  paraj^rajdiH  on  jiajre  .'50r»,  omittiufj  all  before 
it  on  that  pafje.  and  tlien  ]ias;es  :{!)(!,  ;{!»"  and  ^'.i^  should  be 
read  in.  I  do  not  care  to  read  this  at  this  jioint.  unless  yonr 
50  Honours  desiij'  it;  it  will  ko  into  the  record,  and  will  be  re- 
ferred to  in  th"  aifrumcTit.  I  will  not  take  time  to  read  it 
in  connection  with  tlie  cross  examination. 

The  C<nnniiss)(uier  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — It  is  to  be 
taken  as  thou^^h  you  read  ov<  r  those  jtassages  you  referred  to, 
and  asked  the  witness  if  he  rend  them,  and  he  siiid  yes. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Yes.  vour  Honour. 


60 


The  Commissi(mer  on  the  part  of  tiie  I'nited  States: — Of 
course  the  counsel  will  have  to  see  that  the  copy  furnished 
the  jirinter  has  this  jtafiiu};.  as  unless  it  does,  it  will  not  bi; 
understood.  Let  the  exhibit  show  the  same  paffinjj  as  it  is 
in  the  printed  book.  The  steuo};rapher's  notes  and  the  ex- 
hibit will  tlien  connect  with  each  other. 

James  Doujjlas  Warren  called  by  (ireat  Uritaiu  and  sworn: 
Direct   exniaiiiatiou   by  sir  Hibbert  Tuj»per: 


lO 


40 


50 


60 


lAil<1r<'Hsin^  <'<iniinisHi(>iii>rs):  I  |>r(i|HiHi'  (<i  fxiiiiiiin'  (Iiu 
wiliH'ss  hIkhIIv  (III  tilt'  i|iii'Hli()ii  of  vain*-,  iiihI,  witli  llic  pci'- 
inisHioii  iif  tlu'  <'()iiiiiiisHii)n*>rN,  to  call  liini  apiin  at  a  siilmi'- 
ijiifiil  slap*  on  tli*>  (pirstion  of  tlif  av(>rap>  fatrli,  or  i!i<> 
|ir(is|t<'(  tiv«>  cati'li.  and  I  think  that  airan};<-iiii-nt  will  h«'  nioru 
I'onvi-nifnI.  '  otii  for  the  t'oinniissioncrs  and  in  the  arran^*-- 
incnl  of  till-  fvidincc. 

ii. — Mr.  Warren,  von  wcic  born  in  Prince  Kdward  Island, 
I  Itelieve?     A.— Yes.  sir. 

(j. — Yon  came  tnit  somewhere  alioiit  isrit!  from  California, 
and  from  thence  to  Itritish  t'ohimbia,  did  von  not?  A. — IH3U 
Id  California  and  IX.'iS  to  Itritisli  ('(duniliia. 

(i.— Yon  \ven(  into  mining;  first?      A. — A  little. 

ii. — Then  what  did  .von  take  np?  A. — Took  np  the  water 
linsincss  mostly. 

(i. — You  hold  a  master  mariner's  cerlitlcate?     A. — Yes. 

Q. — ^Yhen  did  von  lie^in  boat  in};,  as  von  call  it,  in  ItritiHli 
Columbia?     A.— i Stilt,  about  IStW. 

{}. — From  that  tinu>  down  to  ISSfi  vou  were  more  or  less 
concerne<l  with  ships,  were  ,vou  not?     A. — Yes. 

(I. — Dnrinjj  that  period  will  vou  tell  me  how  many  vessels 
you  owned;  names  of  them,  for  instance?  A. — The  "Thorntcm" 
was  the  tirst  one  I  had  of  any  size,  then  I  had  tlu'  "Scout" 
afterwards,  the  "Helen."  and  I  owned  the  "Leim  .\.,"  a  slooj), 
a  small  steain«'r  called  tli«'  "Leviathan,"  half  a  steamer  called 
the  "tirappler,"  and  a  third  of  a  steamer  called  the  "(Ser- 
Irude,"  and  then  I  fjot  the  "Anna  Beck." 

(i. — Did  you  own  the  "Anna  Heck"?     A. — Yes. 

il. — Did  you  own  the  "Leon  A."?     A. — Yes. 

(i. — And  were  jiart  owner  in  other  vessels?     A. — Yes. 

ii. — Was  the  "Sayward"  one  of  those?     A. — She  was. 

(i.— The  Harbara  Itoscowitz"?  A.— Part  owner  of  the 
"Itarbara  Hoscowitz." 

(i.— And  the  "Orai>ph'r"?     A.— And  th(>  "Crajipler." 

(J. — What  interest  had  yon  in  the  "(Jertrude"?  A. — A».,.nt 
1  (jnarter.     Then  T  had  the  "Doljihin"  and  "firace." 

iy — Now  how  many  of  these  vessels  did  yon  binld?  Did 
von  rebuild  the  "Tliornt(m"?     A. — I  re-built  the  "Thornt(m." 

(i.— What  did  you  do  with  the  "tirace"?     A.— Ituilt  her. 

(}.— How  about  the  "Dolphin"?     A.— Ituilt  her. 

<i.— And  the  "Anna  l?eck"?     A.— I  rebuilt  her. 

Q. — Had  you  anythinfj  to  do  with  the  construction  of  th«« 
"Saywai'd"?     A. — Yes. 

<J. — And  the  "Barbara  Doscowitz"?     A. — Yes,  built  her. 

Q.— What  alumt  the  "(irajiph-r"?     A.— T  boufiht  her. 

<i. — Some  of  those  vessels  wen  not  tis(  d  in  sealiu}?  at  all, 
were  they?     A. — Some  of  them  were  not. 

Q.— Which  were  tho.se?  A.— The  "<)rai>pler,"  the  "(5er- 
Irude."  the  '  ISarbara  Boseowitz." 

(i. — Was  the  "Leon  A."  used  in  sealinu;?     A. — No. 

(i. — Did  you  mention  the  "Leviathan"?  A. — The  "Levia 
than"  in  the  same  wa 

ii. — \ow  what  s<  I  of  a  vessel  was  the  "('..i'i';"a  Bosco- 
witz"?     A. — Well,  frei},ditin}j  vessel. 

(i. — But  was  she  sail,  or  steam?     A. — Steam. 

*.i—l  put  before  you  "Claim  No.  1,  E.xhibit  No.  l(i,  <i.i\'' 
prodiice(l  by  the  Collector  to-d;iy;  will  you  look  down  the 
columns  there,  and  mention  those  vessels  that  you  have 
s]ioken  about,  if  there  ai'e  any  otheis  that  you  have  had  any 
Ihinj;  to  do  with?  .\. — Shall  I  call  out  them  vessels  that  I 
luive  had  to  do  with? 

Q.— Yes.  A.— (Heferriufi  to  Rxhibit  No.  Hi)  The  "Dol 
phin,"  "Grace."  "Anna  I'.eck,"  "Sayward,"  "Thornton,"  I  be 
lieve  that  is  all. 

Mr.  Peters: — There  are  two  ctdumns  there. 


Krj! 


iii 


;;in! 


I];;  "li- 

i'iiii'iiS'!- 


m 


P!|i     I 


■M;! 


aa8 


!'i 


,,„ 


ii — (io  tliroiiKli  iMitli  coliiiniiH,  plciiw.     A. — Tlu'io    1h    oiii> 
Im'I'*'  ciilU'd  tilt'  "Moniiiiza";  I  liiid  fdijydUoii  Iut;  "Miir.v  Tav 
l..r.*' 

Q. — IHd  ,v<»ii  own  Hint  vt'HM«'l?     A. — Yt'H. 

IJ. — Von  liiid  to  «lo  with  Iut?     A. — Ych,  had  to  do  w 

(i.— Th»'  "KiiMtU'i"?     A.— And  the  "HuHthr." 


1HM7 


itii  h«-i'. 
When  waH  site  IohI?     A. — She  wan  hmt  in  liic  Hjirinn  of 


IO 


20 


30 


<j. — Nov\,  if  you  will  look  at  that  list  you  will  h^c  that  tutuw 
of  them'  vchhcIh  wore  i'l*-ar*'d  for  H«>alin^.  tio  ovci-  tin-  list 
(iircfully  a(;ain.  |)lram',  and  Htntc  which  of  thcHc  vomhcIh  wrnt 
to  Itt'hriii);  Hi'a.  or  wort'  ('n);a(;t>d  in  Hcalinji;  in  Itt'hriii);  sea  in 
tliat  y<ai'.  1SH(!? 

Tlic  ConnniHNioncr  on  tlu-  |»ait  of  tlu'  rnitcd  Slatt-H: — What 
v»'HH('ls  do  yon  nu'an;  tlioHc  that  he  owned? 

Kir  IlibluM't  Tujipci': — \vn,  he  had  to  do  with  a  ^roat  many 
of  tlU'W. 

The  i'onuniHHioncr  on  tlic  |tart  of  tlic  Tnitcd  Htaten: — Do 
von  mean  thow  he  owni'd,  or  those  on  tlic  wholi'  liMt? 

Sir  Hibhcrt  Tapper: — I  think  he  is  able  to  tell  u»  which  of 
tlume  vesHcIs  weiv  in  Helirin^  Sea. 

WitnesH:— The  "I'alhflnder."  She  was  in  Hchrinn  Sea  that 
v»'ar;  the  "l><dpliin";  the  "Grace"  was  there;  the  "Anna 
Meek,"  "Say ward."  the  "Alfred  Adams,'  the  "Favorite."  The 
"Itlack  Diamond,"  I  don't  remember  her  K*>i'>t!i  there  in  '8I>, 
nor  the  "Theresa." 

Q. — What  about  the  "Active"?A. — I  am  not  sure  about  the 
'Active."  The  "Kate"  I  don't  think  was.  The  "Thornt«>n" 
was  there,  the  "Onward,"  the  "  Caroleiia.'  The  "Wanetai"  I 
ilon't  reiiH'nibt'r.  The  "Spring  Vale,''  the  "Win'  il"  I  don't 
think  was  there. 

Q. — The  "Triiimjdi,"  was  she  in  the  sea'/    A,  ..Idn't  be 

sure. 

(i.— The  "Wanderer"'?      A.— I  think  the  "Triumidi"     was 
there  in  1MM7,  not  in  ]«Si;. 
40       Q. — What  about  the     "Wanderer"/"     A. — I     don't     hardly 
think  she  was  ther<'. 

Q. — What  about  the  "Helena""/     A. —  I  don't  remember. 

Q. — Was  she  in  the  sea'/     A. — I  don't  hardly  think  It. 

ii. — "Minnie"'/     A. — 1  don't  renumber  her  beiiin  there. 

Q.— The  "Henrietta"'/    A.— \or  the  "Henrietta." 

il. — The  "Stevens,"  do  you  remember  her'/  A. — I  don't  re- 
member. 

Q.— The  "M<mau7.a"'/     A.— Wasn't  there. 

Q. — The  "tiracie"'/     A. — I  don't  tliink  she  was     there     in 
50    ISSti. 

Q.— The  "Mary  Taylor'/"  A.— The  "Mary  Taylor"  wasn't 
there  in  ISSti. 

(i.— The  "Mountain  ("liief""/     A.— I  think  she  was  there. 

Q.— The  "Kustler""/     A.— The  "Knstler"  wasn't  there. 

(i.— The  "Viva"'/  A.— 1  don't  haid'v  think  s-he  was  there 
in  ISSfJ. 

Q.— The  "Sapi»liire"'/  A.— I  dnn't  tliink  the  "Sapphire" 
was. 

(i.— "Triunii»li""/     A.— The  ''Triumph"'  either. 
^^       (i.— \<u-  the  "Maf:),Me  Mac'"'/     A.— \o. 

<i. — Well,  you  have  told  ns  the  vessels  you  owned  over  this 
period,  and  those  that  you  h.ive  had  to  do  with  in  the  way  of 
building  and  constructiiif;.  I>id  yon  know  the  "Carolina"? 
A. — Yes.  T  knew  the  "<';iroIena"'  very  well. 

Q.— Do  yon  remember  when  he  was  brought  to  Itritish 
Columbia?  .\. — Well,  !  don't  just  renumber  the  date,  I  re- 
member I  was  here  about  the  time. 


'"A 


22ij 

(j. — IMd  .voii  know  for  wlioiii  hIio  wiih  built?     A. — A  iutboii 
llitil  we  rail  •liiiiiiiit-  •Ioih'h. 

(l — What   wan  hIic  UKcd  for  lliHt?     A. — Wlicii     mIu'     Hint 
( nine  lifi-*',  118  near  aM  I  can  rciiu-inlu-r,  hIic  carrit'd  coal. 

voii  H«H' Jut  wiicii  hIw  ciiiiic  Iiimv?     A. — V»"k.  I  »\\\\ 
'  tiiiic  wiu'n  hIic  >.vaH  caiT.viiif;  coal  from  Nanainio 


10 


.voii  know  Iht  when  Mr.  ri'i|iiliart  owned  her?    \. 
her  when  nIu-  waH  in  poHm^HKioii  of 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


was  on  tlie  wavH?    A. — I 


A.— I  did. 
woi-k  that 
when  hIu' 


did. 
I  dont 


ti.— IMd 
hci-  at  th* 
liere. 

(i.— Did 
—  I  did. 

Q. — And  ,voii  did  know 
the  pilotN?    A.— I  did. 

(2. — What  did  von  know  altout  the  vcHsel?  Have  .von  ex- 
amined lier  at  all  carefully,  or  did  .von  wee  her  freciiiently? 
A. — I  have  seen  her  freciiieiitly,  y«'H. 

(i. — Are  yctii  able  to  Hjieak  powitively  in  connecticm  witli 
the  veHnel  iih  to  her  rin  and  Imild?     A. — Y^i'B,  I  Hhonid  nup- 

])()He  HO. 

(I. — Wlint  chiHH  of  veHHel  wiiH  Hhe?  A. — Hlw  was  a  very 
pxid  veHMcl,  Hinall  Hized,  one  of  th<>He  Hharp-bnilt,  sea-^oin}; 
model. 

(2. — What  wan  her  Htandint;  an  a  ve88«'l.  for  instance,  an  n 
sailer?       A. — She  wan  conHidered  a  very  n«*«'d  Hiiiler. 

(i. — In  what  condition  was  nhe  in  when  tlie  jdlots  had  lu'r? 
A. — Well,  they  Hjient  a  nood  deal  of  money  «>n  her,  I  think  U 
wnK  in  1SS4. 

(I. — You  remember  their  re]mirin)r  her?  A. — I  reiiM'mber 
they  |>nt  her  on  the  ways,  cut  her  in  two,  hauled  the  two  ends 
n]iart,  buildintr  a  section  in  Iietween. 

Q. — That  wtiH  wlu'n  rniuliart  owned  her?  A. — That  was 
when  rr<|uhart  owned  her. 

Q. — Did  voii  see  her  wlien  slu 
did. 

(i— At  that  time? 

Q. — Did  you  see  the 

(i. — Did  you  see  liei 
remember  of  examining  her  after 
ed  her  wlieii  nhe  was  oiiene<l  out, 
in^  her  u]i. 

(J. — Did  you  see  her  after  she  was  tinished? 

Q. — And  in  1SH(!  did  yon  know  the  vessel? 
her  in  1SS(!,  I  was  abotird  of  her. 

Q. — What  would  that  vt'ssel  as  she  stood  ready  for  sea,  be 
worth  in  vour  opinionV  A. — Then  I  considered  the  vessel 
worth  ^\m). 

(}. — You  thou};ht  that  a  fair  value?  A. — I  thought  tlial  n 
fair  value  at  that  time. 

(I. — During  this  period  that  you  have  mentioned  that  you 
were  in  Itritisli  <V)lnml)ia,  what  did  you  do  with  your  ships? 
A. — (),  I  was  s(>alin,t;  and  freijilitinp  and  such  thiii{;s. 

H. — Where  did  you  seal  for  the  first  period?  A. — Sealed 
on  the  w«  st  coast  of  Vanconv«'r  Island. 

(I. — And  when  did  you  extend  your  sealing  operations?  A. 
— Well,  I  didn't  go  info  Itehrlng  Sea  not  until  IHHO.  I  sent  a 
vessel  in  IHHo,  but  the  captain  and  mate  had  a  disagreenu'nt, 
and  they  didn't  get  there. 

Q. — And  in  IXSo  von  turned  vour  attention  to  Hehring  Sea 
for  the  tirst  time?     A.— I  did. 

Q. — And  what  do  you  say  about  the  vessel  sent  there?  A. 
The  captain  and  mate  disagiv<'d  about  something  and  they 
spoiled  the  trip,  came  back  without  going  there. 

Q. — What  vessi'ls  did  vou  take  vourself  int<»  Behring  Sea 
after  that?  A.— Well,  the  "(irace,"  the  "Dolphin,"  "Anna 
Heck"  and  "Thornton"  in  ISHfl. 

Q- — And  before  that  time  are  yon  able  to  say  whether  those 
engaged  in  the  sealing  business  in  British  Columbia  were  in 
the  habit  of  going  to   B<'hring  Sea  before  ISS.^?       A.— Yes. 


was  done?      A. — I 

was  tinished?     A.— 

sh<>  was  tinished;  I  exainin- 

and  wlien  thev  were  biiild- 


A.— I  did. 
A. — Yes,  I  saw 


liii'li!!: 
^1' 


i! 


'Ill 


m 


I lilii  ■  ' 


■    ''1(11  ]''■ 


in 


it 


M 


I  i!  i'lilllliUi 


fl"' 


MiMjtij 


30 


230 

llu'ie  was,  i  think  t!u!  "Mnr.v  KlU'ii"  was  in  tlic  sim  about  ISS-t 
and  issn. 

*.i. — \V«'II,  witli  (1k'  except i(in  of  the  ".Maiv  Kllcn"  i  ask  .von 
wlictlu'i"  tlioso  who  were  enjtajied  in  sealinj; — |troseculin<; 
that  indtislry — were  in  tlie  liahit  of  tjoinj;  to  that  sea  liefoie 
lSSr>?  A. — Outside  of  tliat.  I  tliink  not.  There  was  an  Am- 
erican vessel  or  two. 

Q. — Wiu'U  did  tile  sealinfj  Itusiness  open  in  l{ehrin<r  sea? 
A. — ISSti  was  the  first  year  then  of  any  note  in  Heliriu};  sea. 
10  (i.What  efl'ect  had  the  o])enin^  of  that  district,  or  those 
waters.  u]i(>n  the  sealiiifj  venture?  First  as  to  time,  before 
that  liow  mucli  of  the  year?  A. — We  spent  before  tliat  about 
three  months. 

(i. — Then  with  the  I!elirin<;  sea  work,  how  much  more  ad- 
ditional time  in  the  year  could  you  kt'ep  your  vessels  runniu}'? 
.\. — We  run  the  time  up  then  to  ei}ihl  or  nine  months. 

Q. — What  etlect  had  that  upon  the  valui'  of  the  vessels? 
.\. — Here  it  made  the  vessels  come  more  in  demand. 

Q. — Increased  the  value?     A.— Increased  the  value. 
20       Q. — On  account  of  the  iiureased  employment,  is  that   so? 
A. — Yes,  that  is  so. 

Q. — What  happened  in  connection  with  the  increase  of 
shippiu};  here?  Where  were  the  siiijis  obtained  after  this? 
A. — Well,  they  were  obtained  in  ditVei'ent  places,  but  jwin- 
cipally  in  Xova  Scotia. 

(■i- — lint  when  did  they  tirst  commence  to  come  in  from 
Dutside,  so  to  speak?     A. — lS8t;  is  the  tirst  year  1  think. 

Q. — And  you  told  me  some  of  the  names  of  the  vessels  that 
came  iu  ISSti  to  rejjister  in  this  p<M't  for  this  business? 

Mr.  Dickinson :— From  Nova  Scotia? 

Sir  Ilibbert  Tapper: — From  outside. 

Q. — ('an  y.m  jjive  me  some  of  tiie  names  that  you  knew  in 
1SS(!?  A. — The  "Pathlinder"  came  here  from  Nova  Scotia. 
"J'enelope"  from  Japan,  the  "Sieriji"  (iune  liere  from  San 
Francisco,  a  very  old  vessel. 

(i — Any  other  one?  A.— The  "Theresa;"!  tiiink  she  came 
from  iicross  the  Sound  here,  a  verv  ;jo(m1  vessel. 

Q.— And     the     "Husth-r"?     A.— Itoufilit      the      "Unslh-r," 
4°   wrecked  on  tne  beach  here  in  Hecember,  I  think,  ISStJ— in  De- 
cember, ISS't. 

ii- — She  was  lost  in  ISS".  wasn't  she?  .\. — She  was  lost  in 
1SS7.  The  "Triumph,"  as  neai"  as  1  can  remember,  came  in 
from  Xova  Scotia  in   1S,s(i, 

(2. — And  from  ihat  date?     A. —  In  1S,S7  ijic  "Ada"  came  in. 

(i. — I  will  not  trouble  tiie  <'ommissii)n<'rs  with  <ioin};'  over 
the  names,  but  from  Ihat  (hile,  did  the  lleet  increase?  A. — 
Ke|»t  increasing  very  last. 

-V. — And  where    was    tiiat    supply    obtained?     A. — l'iin<i 
'      pally  Xova  Scotia,  on  account  of  the  lisiiinn  vissels  there  be 
in^t  better  adapted  for  the  seaiinj;  business — tishin}j;  vessels  of 
I  he  Fast. 

il. — Xow,  Captain  Warren,  are  you  able  to  say  whetlu'r 
these  vessels  you  have  named  as  havinji  been  Itron^lit  in 
from  tiire  to  time,  were  on  tiie  market  f<u'  sale,  oi'  were  they 
bioufj-lit  here  by  those  interested  in  the  sealiufj-  business  for 
sealin;;  purposes?  A. — I  tiiink,  so  far  as  I  know,  they  were 
all  broufjht  here  for  sealinj;. 
(3q       (i. — And  by  those  directly  interested. 

Oossexamination  by  ^Fr.  T.ansinp:: 

ii. — Captain  Warren,  when  did  you  say  that  schooners  be- 
pni  to  a**  into  Hehrinjf  se.i?    A.— .My  sch(»oneis'' 

(}. — Schooners  from  this  port?  .\. — As  far  as  I  know, 
abmit  IS,H|.  iiccordiiifj;  to  my  recollection. 

Q. — In  1MSr>  there  were  vessels  in  from  this  jiort?  A. — I 
think  there  was  two,  if  not  more;  two  is  about  ,il!  I  remein 
bep. 


'•^ 


■  m 


10 


20 


.^0 


■tn 


5'^ 


r.(j 


231 

(i.— Ill  lSS(i  llicy  w<'i<'  in  llic  scii?  A. — NVt  11,  tlicic  wii>» 
scvcnil  in  ISSd. 

iy — Now  in  rcjiiird  (it  I  lie  vcar  ISSU  will  viin  sliilc  from 
lliiil  cxliiliil  lluil  liiis  lifcn  shown  von  ii'<-tVn'inv;  t*>  "Clniin 
No.  1.  Kxliibil  No.  HI.  (J.H.")  liow  nnin.v  vessels  wore  Inonfilil 
into  (liis  ]»oit  from  Sjin  !''>'!'.;!<isco?     A. — Wlnit  veni? 

(2— !SS(i? 

Sir  llibbert  TnpjK'r: — Yon  nwan  as  shewn  by  that  list? 
Mr.  l-ansint;: — .'is  shewn  by  that  list. 

Wieness: — (K-vaniininj;  list)  The  "Theresa"  here;  bnl  I 
know  she  was  bronj^ht  tioni  the  Sonntl.  she  is  the  tirst  name  I 
notne,  bat  I  think  she  was  bron^^iit  from  Seattle.  I  am  nniler 
the  impression. 

Q.  -\\as  that  the  only  Aneiiean  ship  in  ISSI!  in  this  port  .' 
A. — I  see  some  names  lieie.  American  vessels  that  were 
bron!.':lit    here   before   that   year. 

(i.— Mow  nmny  of  them?       A.— The  "Mary  Kllen"— 

(2. — No.  how  nmny?  A. — Well.  I  don't  know.  I  think  I 
(an  take  onl  abmit  iL'  in  the  whole  list  eomin^  from  the  I'nii- 
ed  Stales  at  dilTerent  tinu's. 

Sir  llibbert   Tnpper: — What   years  are  yon  askini;  .-ibont? 

.Ml'.  l.!insin>j;:^lSMti  and  ISS". 

Witness: — Prior  to  ISSti  a.'.d  ISST,  some  of  thes.'  wei-e  in 
seveial  years  before. 

(-i  -How  many  from  Nova  Seotia  in  that  same  period?  \. 
iMime  of  these  vessels  I  can't  from  memory  state  where  lliey 
did  come  from. 

Sir  Ilibbe't  Tnpper: — It  appears  in  the  coinmn  oiiposile. 

(■i. — Well,  fajilain,  in  yonr  dinct  examination  yui  said 
Uiat  the  majority  of  vessels  that  were  bronj^ht  to  this  port 
came  from  Nova  Scotia  in  the  yi  ais  ISSti  and  ISS7?  .\. — The 
majority  in  iSStl  and  1SS7. 

(J. — The  majority  of  the  vessels  <'anie  fi'oin  Nova  Scotia, 
(hat  were  bronyht  from  outside  ports?  .\. — The  majorilA  of 
the  vessels   that    were   brought    in. 

<^ — In  those  yens?     .\. —  In  those  years.  I  think  so. 

ii- — The  .Xmtrican  vessels  were  then  bronjiht  in  years  be- 
fine?     .\. — Yes.  the  most  of  them. 

<i. —  Now.  how  many  vessels  were  bron^iht  in  from  Nova 
Scotia  in  tlu-year  Isst!?  .\. — think  there  was  only  about  two 
or  three  in  is.stj. 

li. —  How  many?  .\.— I  conldn't  say  jositive  how  many,  I 
know  of  sonu'. 

(i.— Was  there  more  than  llie  "I'athtinder"?  .\.—  i  believe 
the  "Trinmph"  come  in  that  year,  iM,  1  the  "I'athliiider." 

(i. — What  time  in  the  year?     .\.  -  \  don't  know. 

(i.— hiti  she  .seal  that  vear?  A.  I  i'ln  not  sure,  but  I  thiid< 
she  <lid. 

<i. — Wasn't  she  brought  around  in  the  winter?  \. —  I 
conldn't  say.  I  wasn't  interested  in  her;  but  I  am  under  the 
impression  that  she  sealed  that  year. 

<i. — How  lonjr.  t'aplain.  was  the  se;ilinf.'  season  prior  to 
1S,S(!?      ,\. —  How  many  months  do  you  mean? 

(}. — Yes?     A. — (),  j-i  in'rally  abent    three  months. 

(i.- When  did  it  biuin?  .\.  -Will  I  used  l.>  be-iin  on  Ihe 
first  of  .March. 

<i. — No,  when  did  the  sealinj;  season  bei{in?  .\. —  It  could 
bejiin  alon^  in  the  winter. 

<i.-~Hid  not   they  do  that   on  a  i;ood     many     vet<sels?     .A. 

Sonn-  of  th(  ni  did. 

<J. — Hid  not  a  ji:ood  nmny?      .\. — I  couldn't  say. 


11  i^ 


!  t 


]l'       ^ 


Mi 


'  « 


;.''  ! 


232 


l::l 


*<iMii^ 


ii. — Don't  ,von  know  <»f  any  vessels  going  out  in  lS8fl  before 
the  fii'Ht  of  Manli?      A. — I  tliinJv  very  likely  there  wns. 

il. — And  in  1SS(J  what  (iiue  did  the  season  coninience?  A. 
.Well,  the  season  wonld  <'oninience  just  abont  the  same  time 
nny  yejir.  They  wonld  commence  along  about  Christmas 
time,  if  they  wished  to. 

Q.^Vou  said  the  first  of  5Iarch,  I  believe?  A. — That  was 
generally  about  my  time,  the  first  of  March. 

Q. — And  lasted  three  mcmtlis?     Yon  swore  to  that  in  your 
lo   (iirect  testimony?    A. — I  said  three  months  was  my  ordinary 
neasim  before  we  went  \(y  Hehring  sea,  afterwards  it  ran  nj)  to 
al>ont  eight  months,  after  we  commenced  to  go  into  the  sea. 

Q.— That  was  in  ISSfJ?    A.— Yes. 

ii. — >Vere  your  vessels  out  eight  months  in  1880?  A. — I 
don't  know  as  they  were  out  quite,  but  they  must  have  been 
very  n(>ar. 

Q. — What  time  did  they  start  that  year?  A. — In  the  neigh- 
borhood of  the  first  of  Manh. 

Q. — AVas  there  one  of  those  vessels  that  stayed  out  eight 
20   months?    A. — I  don't  know  whether  tlu're  was  or  not. 

Q. — Was  there  one  that  stayed  out  seven  nmnths?  A. — 
Yes,  I  think  so. 

Q.— Which  one?  A.— Well,  I  think  the  "Anna  Beck"  was 
out  seven  montlis,  anyway. 

(i. — Was  that  th<  only  one?  A. — I  know  we  came  home 
early  that  year  on  account  of  the  seizures;  I  did  for  one. 

Q. — Can  you  tell  me  that  cajitain?    A. — What  is  that? 

(.}. — Was  there  a  vessel  out  f(»r  seven  months  of-your  ves- 
sels?    A. — I  thought  I  had  a  memorandum  here  of  the  time 
30   the  vessels  came  back. 

ii. — y,y 'U,  no  matter  abont  it.  Caiitain,  I  suppose  it  will 
appear  here  or.  the  records  of  the  court.  Now,  in  regard  to 
tl'e  "Carolena,"  you  speak  of  her  as  a  good  sailer,  wlien  she 
was  in  the  hands  of  the  jdlots,  and  you  valued  her  readv  for 
Hea  at  |i4,0()(».  Was  that  correct?  A.— That  was  whiit  I 
vahu'd  lier  after  she  was  lengthened. 

ii. — >'ow,  will  you  explain  exactly  what  you     mean     by 

"ready  for  sea?"     A. — Wi'll,  vessel  ''ready  for  scu"  is  when 

idi'/  is  properly  caulked,  jsroperly  |)ainted,  anchors  and  chains, 

40  I'verything  necessjiry  for  a  vessel  to  be  seaworthy,  not  includ- 

Ir.g  any  outfit. 

ii. — l>o  you  mean  all  the  blacksmithing,  ship  chandlery; 
and  that  work,  done  completely  for  the  seastm?     .\. — Yes. 

ii. — Do  yon  include  her  sealing  outfit?     A. — Xo. 

Q. — There  was  one  other  (|Uestion  I  wanted  to  ask  you, 
Captain,  with  regard  to  th«'  years  prior  to  IHSft,  whilst  it  is 
on  my  mind.  Now  j>rior  to  \SHii  you  sjiid  that  the  vessels 
Avere  engaged  but  three  montlis,  what  were  fliey  doing  fin? 
rest  of  the  time?  A. — The  sealing  vessels? 
SO  (i.— Yes?  .\. — Well,  the  most  of  them  w«'re  trading  oil 
and  skins  and  such  tilings;  some  of  them  did  freighting. 

ii. — \Vere  they  always  occupied  in  that  business?  A. — No, 
I  don't  know  that  fliey  all  were. 

ii. — .V  majority  of  them?  .\.— T'rior  lo  ISHti  I  think  a  nm- 
jority  of  them. 

did  it  increase  their  value  if  they  were  em- 
time?     A. — They  could  make    more     monev 


Go 


(i.— And  how 
ployed  all  that 
sealing. 

Q. — Did  they  make  more  mcncy  at  sealing?    A. — I  think 
so,  as  n  rule. 

ii. — Now  to  the  return  to  fix 
n  sealing  outfit;  what  do  you  mean  by 
alioard  the  vessel. 

Q. —  Hoats?     .\. — Provisions, 
thing  necessary  for  suitidies. 

ii. — Do  yon  mean  wii-n  you  say  "ready  for  sea"  sails  pack- 
ed and  in  order?     A. — Yes. 


Carolena"?     You  spoke  of 
that?    A.— Hupplies 

guns,    ammunition,  and  anv- 


lo 


20 


30 


40 


r.o 


233 

Q. — And  paintod?  A. — C'nulkiu^  and  such  things,  cvory- 
thiny  n-pairi'd,  all  lepaii-s  made  for  the  Heasou. 

Q. — Now  (;a{)tain,  if  tlie  "Carolona"  had  to  have,  say  a 
tluiuHand  siiiuglcK  driven  into  her  seams,  what  would  you  say 
about  that.  \\'ould  that  be  part  of  her  outfit  or  would  that 
als(»  be  included?  A. — Sometimes  it  is  necessary  in  the  lin- 
iufi  and  the  inside  skin. 

ii. — That  you  would  include  as  being  ready  for  sea?  A. — 
Sometimes  it  is  a  very  good  thing  but  I  do  not  know. 

Q. — You  do  not  (juite  understand  me,  would  you  include 
1'Jiat  in  her  outfit,  would  you  include  that  in  the  cost  of  her 
sealing  outfit?  A. — Well,  sometimes  you  could  drive 
shingles  in  the  inside  skin  of  the  vessel  and  that  would  help 
hor  greatly  in  going  to  sea,  it  >yould  stiffen  her  up. 

Q. — Do  you  think  that  is  part  of  her  sealing  outfit?  A. — 
I  do  not  think  it  is. 

Q. — Then  if  the  "('arolena''  had  a  quantity  of  shingles 
driven  into  her,  you  would  say  that  you  would  include  that  in 
your  ^-1,0(M)  valuation?  A. — If  she  needed  it  I  would  con- 
sider it  so;  if  she  required  it. 

Re-direct  examination  by  Sir  Charles  Hibbert  Tupi)er: 

il. — ('aptain  Waren,  you  were  asked  in  reference  to  vhe 
vessels  that  came  frciui  San  Francisco.  For  how  many  years 
did  that  sui)ply  last?  A. — Well,  there  were  odd  vessels 
came  from  tlieic  for  a  number  of  years. 

Q. — When  did  it  stop?  A. — Well  there  has  been  nn  odd 
vessel  I  think  coming  along,  but  1  do  not  just  know  when 
they  did  ston,  there  have  been  some  since  1887. 

Q. — Well  comi)ared  witli  the  supply  from  the  East  which 
lias  formed  the  main  market  for  buying.  A. — All  after  1887, 
(lie  bulk  of  the  vessels  came  from  the  East. 

il. — What  class  of  vessels  were  those  as  a  rule  that  came 
from  San  Francisco"'  First  as  to  age,  and  then  as  to  the 
«-!ass  generally.  Were  they  poor  vessels  or  good  vessels? 
A. — Tliere  were  some  go<»d  vessels  coming  from  San  Francis- 
co and  some  of  them  pi'etty  old  vessels. 

(i. — Had  you  occasion  10  g()  to  that  market  to  look  for 
them?  A.-^I  went  down  tlu'ie  in  the  fall  of  1870,  I  think, 
to  buy  a  vessel  and  I  had  i|'      -a  liig  look  among  them. 

Q.— How  do  (he  chiss  of  issels  from  tliiit  port  compare 
with  tlie  class  of  vessels  obtaimd  fnnii  flic  lOast?  A. — The 
most  of  the  vessels  in  San  Francisco  ar<  mostly  built  for 
freighting  purposes,  and  with  some  e.\«  >  pticms  not  vessels 
(hat  I  should  lilve  well  for  the  sealing  business. 

g. — ij,it  the  vessels  from  outside,  or  rather  the  vessels 
wliicli  you  got  from  the  East,  were,  as  a  rule,  built  for  fish- 
ing?     A. — Yes.  for  llshing  and  sea  going  purposes. 

g.— You  were  asked  witli  reference  to  how  long  the  ^(■ssels 
stayed  out  in  ISSCi.  did  these  vessels  you  had  to  do  \\illi  in 
ISSn  stav  out  tlieir  full  voyage,  or  did  they  conu>  back  before 
(he  seasim  for  sealing  was' over?  A.— I  think  tliat  the  most 
of  llieiii  came  iuick  before. 

Q  —  Do  you  know  as  a  matter  of  fact  what  brought  tlieiu 
home?  A.— I  know  what  brimght  me  home,  and  that  was 
the  seizures. 

Q._Oiie  vessel  was  seized  in  that  season  belonging  to  you, 
was  siie  not?      A. — Yes. 

Q.— .\iid  the  other  v»'ssels  came  home  soon  after  you  ar- 
rived?     A.— Some  of  them  came  shortly  after. 

Q._\Vliat  vessel  did  you  come  home  on?        A.— I     came 

home  on  flie  "I>olpliin." 

Q.— What  time?      -\.— 1  left  the  sea  on  the  12tli  of  August. 

Q._Wliy  did  you  leave'      A.— On  acount  of  the  seizures. 

Q._You  were  asked  as  to  whether  these  vessels  made  more 

nionev  bv  sealing  than  in  coasfing.  T  want  to  ask  you.  Tap 

tain  WaVrcn.  how  maiiv  vessels  had  you  in  188fi.  sealing? 

You  had  the  "Thornion,"  (he  "Anna  IJeck,"  the  "Sayward," 


iir 


mi'. 


■iii'h 

m 


■  ■{    t  •■:'■  j-  j 


.|||i|l!l 
^1:  n 


-  ~..    .,J!!i»^«J 


w 


nhu  ■ 


■]     i 


30 


40 


SO 


60 


>.'<» 


10 


234 

till'  "liuHtlor,"  and  what  oUut  vcsbcI,  I  Miink  yon  had  the 
"(Jnu'if"  and  tht'  "l)(>li)hin"  niakin.i;  seven  in  all?  A. — I 
lliinU  I  had  onlv  six. 

Q.— The  "Thonilon"  was  seized  and  the  "Knstlei"  did  no 
into  the  sea  at  all?      A. — No. 

Q-— Was  she  lost  that  yeai-?  A.— Xo,  she  was  lost  the 
next  year. 

Q- — The  "Thornton"'  was  seized  and  yon  came  home,  yon 
have  told  ns,  earlier  than  you  would  have,  had  it  not  been  for 
the  seizure?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  profit  did  you  obtain  from  that  s(>ason's  sealiu;;;; 
notwithstandinir  all  these  cireumstanees,  what  was  made 
dear  by  you  above  the  expenses?       A. — Somewhere  about 

Q. — ('ould  you  make  that  much  money  coastiuff,  or  have 
you  ever  done  it  eoastintr  at  the  same  time  and  with  the 
same  vessels?      A. — Not  with  the  sanu'  vessels. 

Ke-cross-examination  by  Mr.  Lansinjj: 

Q. — In  your  slatenu'nt  of  valuation  of  the  "Carolena"  you 
20  said  she  was  worth  $4,(»0(»  when  n-ady  to  po  to  sea,  would 
you  in«  lude  in  that,  ffi.^n  for  rejtairs  of  three  sails?  A. — If 
it  was  i)ut  on  the  sails  before  she  left,  I  should  say  so. 

Q. — Would  you  include  in  that  also  S  yards  of  No.  5  duck? 
A. — Not  if  it  was  supplied  for  use  afterwards.  If  it  went  on 
before  she  left  and  if  it  was  needed  I  would  inclur'e  it. 

Q. — And  would  you  include  the  twine?  A. — It  is  the  same 
thing. 

Q. — W<»uld  you  include  in  that  221  i»ounds  of  castiuRs?  A. 
— I  do  not  think  so,  !  would  include  what  the  vessel  required 
for  making  her  seaworthy. 

Q. — Would  you  include  the  castings  in  nuiking  her  ready 
for  sea?  A. — I  should  not  include  it  as  bearing  on  her 
|4.00(». 

(i. — Von  say  you  would  not?      A. — No. 

Q. — Would  you  include  it  in  the  sealing  outtit?  A. — I  do 
not  know,  myself,  what  it  would  be  for. 

Q. — Would  you  includ<-  rejjairs  to  two  stoves  in  yotii-  ^4,- 

000  estimate?  A. — Well,  one  stove  at  any  rate,  might  be- 
long to  the  sealing  outttt,  an  ordinai'y  vessel  would  not  recjuire 
two  unless  she  was  going  sealing. 

(i.-  Don't  tiiey  have  one  in  the  cabin  and  one  in  the  lore- 
castle?  A. — It  is  not  necessary  to  have  two  stoves  unless 
they  are  sealing. 

(j. — Would  you  include  zinc  for  tlu'  cabin  Hoor?  A. — Tlia* 
would  be  under  the  stove,  I  sup]>ose.  I  think  the  vessel 
should  be  fitted  with  oiu'  stove  and  what  is  necessary  for  it. 

Q.— Tliat  would  l)e  included  in  the  |4.000  ready  for'sea?  A. 

1  suppose  so. 
Q. — I{"j(airs  to  deck  pi)ies  and  blacksniilli   repair's,  would 

you  inchule  this  also?  A. — That  all  depends  as  to  wiiethei' 
it  was  for  the  sealing  crew,  the  vessel  should  have  one  stove 
complete. 

(). — And  what  do  you  say  as  to  the  rejtairs  to  the  deck 
pipes?     A. — It  might  belong  to  the  scaling  crew. 

(.i. — \\'hat  do  you  mean?  .\. —  Foi-  the  convenience  <if  the 
sealing  crew.  Any  extra  ex](ense  that  lias  to  be  |tut  lo  on 
account  of  the  vessel  going  sealing,  belongs,  I  think,  to  the 
sealing  outtit. 

(.}. — Would  you  include  the  windlass  gear  in  y(»ui'  !f4,(IOl» 
ready  toi"  sea,  I  should  sup]iose  flic  windlass  gear  behmged  to 
the  vessel. 

Q. — And  three  strajts  for  tanks,  what  would  you  say  about 
that?     A.— That  must  belong  to  the  outfit. 

What   part   of  the  (nittit?     .\.— Thev   have  lo  carrv  a 


Q. 


big  lot  of  water  and  an  extra  supply  of  casks  when  they  are 
going  sealing  and  conseipicntlv  it  belongs  lo  the  sealing  <uil- 
it. 


ID 


20 


30 


40 


<-)n 


H. — ''Two  Htauds  for  stocriii};  jjcar,"  would  you  consider 
that  part  of  the  scaliu^  outfit  also?  A. — I  should  not  thiuk 
so. 

Q. — Then  thi'iv  is  heir  an  item  for  a  tilliT,  is  that  part  of 
lilt'  scalinj;  outfit?  A. — I  should  suppose  if  tlu-y  are  for  the 
Htecrin;;  near  they  would  \w  for  the  vessel. 

(i. — "Screw  bolls  and  a  trav»'ller."  etc.,  as  you  see  stated 
there.  Do  these  belong  to  the  sealing  outfit?  A. — They 
don't  look  to  me  like  it. 

Q. — Two  staples,"  is  that  pari  of  the  sealin},'  outfit?  A. — 
I  think  you  mentioned  two  staples  before,  but  if  they  were 
needed  for  the  sfeerinu  wheel  they  mif^ht  be,  or  they  mif;ht 
beloni;  to  the  vessel. 

Q. — It  says  "2  slajiles  for  wheel,"  is  that  part  of  the  sealing 
outfit?  A. — I  should  not  expect  it,  but  I  could  not  say  about 
it. 

Q. — A  "10-inch  monkey  wrench,"  is  that  part  of  the  sealing 
outfit?  A. — I  don't  liardiv  know  what  thev  would  want  it 
f(.r. 

Q. — Would  it  belong  to  the  schooner  or  to  the  si'aling  out- 
fit.    A. — I  don't  think  it  necessarily  belongs  to  the  schooner. 

(}. — And  VI  pounds  of  American  ro|)('?  A. — If  it  were  on 
hoard  as  stores  it  would  be  extra. 

il. — What  would  it  be  used  for  in  tlie  sealing  outfit?  A. — 
.My  valuation  of  the  vessel  is  not  for  supplies  to  run  her  for 
1  year  or  two  or  for  six  months  or  anything  of  that  kind,  it 
is  just  for  the  vessel,  you  might  carry  supi)Iies  on  a  vessel  for 
I'liy  length  of  time. 

t^. — Is  not  this  getting  her  ready  to  go  to  sea  each  season? 
A. — If  it  was  put  on  the  vessel  to  get  her  in  running  gear  be- 
fore she  left  if  would  belong  to  the  \»'ssel. 

(t — One  coil  of  roiie  .'SO  pounds?  Would  you  say  that  was 
:)art  of  flu  sealing  outfit?  A. — It  might  not  be,  it  very  likely 
>vas  for  sujtplies. 

(i. — Now.  with  regard  to  the  item  for  itnnip  leather,  was 
that  part  of  the  sealing  outfit?  A. — That  might  be  extra  gup- 
plies  that  belonged  to  the  vessel. 

H. — "L'inch  .Vmei'ican  rope  14  iiounds,"  is>  that  jtart  of  tlu- 
•icaliiig  outfli?  A. — No,  I  should  say  tl'.at  was  for  su])plies, 
iind  was  rove  oft  lu'foi'c  she  left. 

(I. — Would  if  be  customary  on  a  sealing  vessel  of  that  size 
to  caiiy  as  much  rope  as  tliat  foi'  supplies?  .\. — <),  yes, 
H'fiing  for  ;i  long  voyage  you  would  re<|uii'e  quite  a.  consider- 
I  Ide  >|uan(ity  of  rojie.  and  spare  canvas  too. 

("aptain  Warden,  I  will  s'low  yoii  N'oiicher  No.  It  of  It'>hibit 
10,  (his  is  a  bill  frtim  .Mct^uade  &  Sons.  an<l  I  would  ask  you 
lo  lun  over  these  ifems  in  if  and  say  what  they  are  for.  A. 
—  If  these  were  carried  as  spaie  stutV  for  supplies,  of  course 
'hey  would  be  extra  to  file  valuation,  but  that  I  cannot  say. 

(i.— Well,  now,  raptain,  is  tliat  jiart  of  tlie  sealing  outfit 
wiiicli  is  included  in  that  bill?  .\. — No.  I  should  say  that 
was  for  supi»lies  for  the  vessel  during  the  voyage. 

Q.— All  that  bill,  amounting  to  f'.ll.tlit,  was  for  supjdies? 
A. — .\  vessel's  own  !m)»jilies  ought  to  amount  to  more  than 
that. 

t^. — Would  labour  in  repairing'  (he  vessel,  rejiairing  her 
hull,  be  included  in  her  sealing  outfit?  No,  not  repairing  the 
vessel  before  she  left;  there  is  labour  on  the  vessel  in  addi- 
tion to  that  in  fitting  her  up  for  sealing  and  making  her  con- 
venient to  carry  a  crowd  of  peo|)Ie. 

(J». —  1  supjiose  that  wouM  not  be  the  case  if  she  had  beeu 
used  the  year  beftne  for  si'aling?  .V. — Well,  her  fittings  for 
tliat  purpose  lulglif  be  taken  out. 

(i. — Would  it  be  natural  that  these  fittings  would  be  taken 
nut?  ,\. — rre(iuently  they  are  taken  out;  the  vc^^sel  cannot 
go  into  freighting  without  faking  them  out. 

(i. — Would  you  siiy  that  lalxnir  on  a  vessel  amounting  to 
#ril>  would  be  part  of  her  sealing  outfit?    A.— It  might  be. 


..<: 


jl 


1'  'u 


■'  m 


!  I 


il-Ni 


■■•^ 


20 


236 

Q. — 1)(H'H  tlu'  ('iiptiiin  of  )i  v«'s8('l  c;('iu'riill.y  biiv  his  own 
chi'oiionu'fcr?    A. — I  tliink  sit;  Homctiiues. 

Q. — J 8  it  a  nsiiiii  ciistoin?  A. — I  do  not  know  wlietlicr  it 
in  a  HHnal  cnstoni  or  nitt. 

f-i. — Yon  liave  bocn  a  hwnv  Hlilp  owner  and  yon  have  st'v«'ral 
i-lainis  bcfoi't'  tliis    Coniniission?     A. — I  have  scveial. 

Q. — How  many?     A. — Five,  I  think. 

Q. — Now,  is  it  cnstonnuy  for  tlu'  (•a])lain  to  brin<r  his  own 
chrononit'tcr  on  board?  A. — Sonictinics  tlicy  do  and  some- 
10  times  tliey  do  not;  if  I  furnislicd  a  clirononu'ter  (o  a  captain 
1  wonid  hold  the  eaptain  itersonaJly  rcsiKnisibJe  for  it. 

Q. — I  will  sliow  yon  now  Vcnielier  No.  !»,  of  K.\liibit  !(►,  a  bill 
from  John  Hobiiison.  Will  yon  look  over  that  bill  and  show 
me  the  items  whieli  were  for  sealing  ontfit;  I  wish  yon  to 
point  ont  the  items  that  beloiifj  to  the  sealinji  onttit?  A. — 
Tlu're  is  one  item  there  which  I  think  is  included; 

Q. — Yon  can  only  name  one  item  that  yon  are  really  satis- 
fled  about?      A. — That  is  all  I  can  see. 

Q. — There  is  only  oiw  that  you  are  satistied  with? 

Sir  Charles  Ilibbert  Tni)iter: — Satistied  as  to  what? 

Mr.  Lansin{r: — Satistted  that  it  belonjjs  to  the  sealing  out- 
fit. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'niti'd  States: — What 
is  the  nature  of  that  voucher,  what  is  the  amount  of  it? 

Mr.  Lansing: — The  amount  of  it  is  ^oO. 

The  Commisioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty:— Is  that  n 
shij)  chandler's  bill? 

Mr.  Lansing:— It  ia  of  that  nature. 

The  Commis-sioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majestv: — What  is 
30   the  total  of  that  bill? 

Mr.  Lansing: — 154.(!(!.      (To  witness.) 

Q. — I  now  show  you  Voucher  No.  (>  of  Exhibit  1().  a  bill  for 
ifSi\,  it  is  a  bill  for  shij)  chandlery  mainly.  Will  you  jioint 
out  the  items  in  that  bill  that  belong  to  the  sealing  outfit? 
A. — There  are  a  nuniber  of  comi»ases  used  for  outfit,  but  I  do 
not  know  whether  the  one  stated  there  is  one  of  them  or  not. 

Q. — Read  ont  the  items  that  you  are  sure  belong  to  the 
sealing  odtfit?  A. — 1  think  that  bill  ]n'obably  all  belongs  to 
the  sealing  outfit. 

Q. — That  part  of  it  amounting  to  ^.'17  was  for  sealing  out- 
fit?     A— Yes. 

Q. — There  are  two  bills  attached  to  that  same  voucher. 
Read  the  second  bill  attached  to  it;  Kxhibit  N<».  10.  and  see 
how  much  of  that  bi'longs  to  th(>  sealing  ontfit?  A. — It 
seems  to  me  that  parr  of  it  belongs  to  the  sealing  outfit,  and 
part  of  it  belongs  to  the  supplies  of  the  vessel  for  the  voy- 
age. 

Q. — That  is  the  best  you  can  say.  You  cannot  point  out 
the  sealing  outiit?  A. — 1  could  point  out  some  of  them, 
there  are  lines  and  hooks  and  different  things  there,  that  I 
know  must  belong  t(»  the  sealing  outfit. 

Q. — I  wish  yon  to  I'ead  them  out?  A. — The  rop«'  might  be 
used  for  the  vessel  or  it  might  be  used,  some  of  it,  for  (he 
sealing  outfit,  and  the  seaming  palm  might  belong  to  the  ves- 
sel, the  copper  tacks,  the  hoops,  the  line  thread  rope,  the  cod 
lines  are  for  the  sealing  outfit,  and  I  think  the  rest  of  it  would 
be  for  supjdies. 

Q. — Captain,  \  have  shown  you  several  of  these  vouchers, 
have  yon  ever  seen  them  before?  A. — I  do  not  think  that  I 
l)erused  them,  but  I  nmy  have  seen  them  before;  that  is,  1 
do  not  think  I  have  piM-nsed  the  items  particularly. 

Q. — Where  did  yon  get  your  infornuition  when  you  made 
ont  the  claim  for  the  "Carolena"  in  Ottawa  0.1  the  2Sth  of 
November,  1HS7?  A. — I  very  likely  made  Ihem  from  vouch- 
<'rs;  I  nnide  them  fnnn  the  totals  of  the  vouchers,  I  suppose, 
but  I  do  not  thijik  I  went  through  them  very  particularly. 


40 


50 


Oo 


'-n 


m 


(i. — Will  ,V(Hi  swt'iir  voii  «'v«'i'  hiiw  tlu'm*  voiiclu'rs  Itefoiv? 
A. — It  would  b"  piv(1,v  hard  for  me  to  do  that.  A  pile  of 
voiuhci'H  \ven>  sent  1<»  me,  but  whether  them'  ari  the  Mamu 
or  not  1  would  not  like  to  Hwear. 

(\. — What  did  you  do  with  thewe  voucherH?  A. — 1  sent 
tlieni  baek  or  bi-ousht  them  back,  as  near  as  I  remember;  I 
would  not  be  sure,  but  I  know  the.v  should  have  come  back. 

(\. — It  was  from  these  v(»uchers  tliat  you  made  up  the  price 
of  ftroceries  in  Ihe  bill  at  *r>!tS.»iO?      A. — I  do  n<»r  remember 
"^  just  how  it  was.      I  do  not  know  whether  I  used  the  vouchers 
or  not,  or  whether  I  made  it  up  from  the  Ktatenienr. 

Q. — I  show  you  the  case  (»f  (Jreat  Itritain  before  the  Fur 
Seal  .\rbitration.  at  i)a(je  1;?7,  American  Kdition,  mar(;tnal 
pafiinj;  t.  Exhit)it  "A  "  "Value  of  the  schooner  '('arolena'  at 
llie  time  of  seizure — ;rroceries.  ^r)!>S,(!(l."  How  did  you  make 
11])  that.  ('ai»tain?  A. — From  memory  now  I  can  hardly  say. 
Mr.  lU'lyea  and  I  were  makinj;  them  up. 

i\. — Mr.  llelyea   was  with  you  at  Ottawa?       A. — He  was 
with  me  at  Ottawa. 
-°       Q.— Did  you  have  these  same  voudiers  there?      A. — I  had 
a  lot  of  vouchers  there,  but  whether  these  are  the  same  or 
not  I  do  not  know. 

Q. — Did  yoii  make  ii]t  the  ammunition  account  In  the  same 
way.  from  voudiers?  A. — I  do  not  remember  of  K(>iiii^ 
liirouiih   the  vouchers  at  all. 

Q.— Did  you  make  \\\i  lh»>  value  of  the  shotguns  fnmi  the 
vouchers?  A. — I  do  not  know  that  I  did  from  the  vouchers; 
I  ratlier  think  that  I  did  it  from  the  statement. 

(J. — Who  made  uj*  tlie  statement?      A. — It  was  i;ent  to  nie, 
•^     1  suj)i>ose  it  was  l)v  .Mr.  Munsie.      I  am  under  the  impression 
lliat  it  was  tnade  fiom  th"  statement,  but  the  vouchers  were 
.«cnt  on.  I  know  that. 

Q. — You  swore  to  this  statement,  did  you?  A. — I  su])po8e 
I  stated  to  the  best  of  my  knowh'dge. 

Sir  Charles  llibbert  Tupi)er: — That  is  a  solemn  declaration. 
It  is  hardly  riylit  to  imt  it  in  the  way  you  do;  it  is  a  solemn 
declaration  to  ilic  best  of  his  infoiiuation  and  belief.  I  am 
an.xious  that  the  record  should  show  the  document  that  you 
40  are  e\aminin}r  him  about,  and  it  does  not  ai>pear  to  me  that 
i(  will  do  that,  unless  you  make  the  statenuMit  that  it  is  a 
solemn  declaration.  This  docinnent  is  the  declaration  of  J. 
D.  Warren  befjjiniiint;,  "I  solemnly  and  sincerely  declare  as 
follows." 


KP 


[    I     hhiJ! 


'i 


'lO 


|{y  Mr.  Lansing: 

<\. — Did  y(m  make  uj)  all  these  items  from  vouchers?  A. 
— To  the  best  of  my  recollection,  I  do  not  remember  yoiug 
tiiroU}{h  the  vouchers. 

<\. — You  didn't  >jo  through  the  vouchers?  A. — I  cannot 
say,  it  is  so  lony;  auo.  Whether  I  used  the  vouchers  to  check 
olf  the  statement  or  not,  I  cannot  say.  Mr.  Helyea  was  with 
me  at  the  time,  and  1  suppose  he  was  the  principal  one  iu 
making'  tlu'm  up.     . 

(i. — Did  you  have  a  statement  from  Mr.  Munsie  of  all  these 
items?  A. — I  think  so.  I  tliink  I  had  a  statenu'ut  from  all 
of  them. 

(i. — You  did  not  retain  that?  A. — No,  whatever  I  had 
I  left  them  there  I  think. 

(i. — Please  look  at  this  document  entitled  "Statement  of 
I  lie  '  ("arolena,,'  .\(»vember  2Mh,  1SS7,"  and  say  if  that  is  your 
statement?      A. — I  believe  it  is  a  statenuMit  of  mine. 

<\. — Kxliibil  "A"  of  pajje  :$.  of  the  Aitpendi.\,  Itritish  f'ase. 
Is  that  vour  st.itement?  A. — It  is  very  hard  for  me  to  re- 
niember  Ihe  amounts. 

(i.— .\iid  what  about  the  remainder  of  Exhibit  "A"  is  that 
yours?      ,\.— I  expect  it  is. 


'i  }!■  I 


i 


III 


•  i; 

1; 


i1      ■ 


!■■       I 


i}. — I  rt'jid  ,v(»ii  Aiiicl*'  7,  of  Htiitciiicnt  of  Ww  ItiitiHli  ciihc, 
hciii;;  tlif  A|i]i<'ii(lix  (if  tlic  Sdu-dnlc  of  cljiiiiis,  and  I  iisk  ,vou 
if  .von  uiiuk'  lli>'  followinj,'  stiih-nicnf  in  tlic  dtMlai-iition  nnuh; 
l).v  yon  on  tlio  listli  dii,v  of  Xovcnibcr  in  tlic  ("ity  of  Ottawa. 
Tlu'  following  is  tlic  Htatcnicnt: 

"7.  Tiiat  lu'ivlo  annexed,  nniikrd  'A,'  is  a  slatcnicnt  of  tlie 
articles  coniprisinfj  tlic  onllit  of  tlic  scliooncr  "<*ar<»]cna"  on 
licr  dcparfnrc  on  licr  said  vovajfc.  and  all  of  wliicii  I  verily 
beli«'vc  were  on  hoard  tlic  "Carolcna"  at  llic  time  of  licr  Nciz- 

'°  nre.  cxccjitin;;  only  what  liad  been  conHnnicd  in  tlic  ordinary 
course  of  tile  voyajfc,  to<,'ctlicr  with  the  valnc  of  said  articles 
also  of  the  aiiioiint  of  ]ireniiunis  ]iaid  for  insnraiic<>  on  (he 
linll,  outfit  and  caifjo  of  the  said  "('arolcna"  for  the  said  voy- 
age; also  of  the  aiiioniit  of  wajjcs  ]iaid  to  the  crew  and  hunt- 
ers on  hoard  the  "Carolcna"  up  to  the  time  of  such  seizure; 
also  the  cxjicnscs  of  the  mate  and  jiart  of  the  crew  in  retnrn- 
inj;  to  the  city  of  Vi<toria  from  Onnalaska  and  Sitka,  and 
also  a  statement  of  the  nnmhcr  of  seal  skins  on  hoard  the 
"Candena  at  the  time  of  said  seizure  and  the  value  thereof." 

^°  !)id  von  make  that  statement  or  declaration?  A. — I  believe 
I  did. 

(i. — Is  Exhibit  ".V"  which  I  now  read  the  schedule  referred 
to: 

KXlIllUT  (A.) 

Value     of     schooner  "Carolcna"  at     the 

time  of  sei/.die |4,00(MI(> 

Outfit;— 

Oroceries |r)!)S.tiO 

30   Ainnnition 17;{.;{t 

Six  shot  f,'uus .worn 

Five  riHcs 1:{(U)0 

Gun  implements  and  to(ds 17.2!) 

I>ry  <;oods 71. .'57 

Ship  chandlery ;{7(!.s;? 

Water  casks 12.(10 

ChroiKniieter ir.(l,(MI(l 

Four  canoes  and  outfit 24S..''»(» 

One  boat 1(»(».(»0 

40    Salt Sl.OO 

<'oal  and  wood  for  fuel .'{7.(!2 

Cookinjj  stove  and   utensils 70.00 

.Miscellaneous 42.:{4 

Cash  on  board  and  unaccounted  f<n' ,"00.00 

Sextants,  two   75 

Total .'{.002.,s!) 

Insurance  i»rcmiuni  and  survey  fee  on  $2.^00 

on  hull  and  !|!l.O"l(»  on  out  tit  and  car>;o. .  :irt2I)i) 

5      \Va<;es  jiaid  to  himtcrs  and  crews  for     voy- 

•AjU'  up  to  time  of  sci/.urc l.H;{2.22 

Part  of  crew  havinii  lieen  sent  to  San  Fran- 
cisco by      i'liitcd     Stales       aiitliorilies 

board  fen-  (i\e  men  at     San     Francisco 

and   i»assaut'     iiioncy     I  hence     to     \'ic- 

toria 71.72 

l*!.issa}xe  money  and  expense  of  male,  James 

IJlakc  from   Sitka    lo   \'i<loria   after  re- 

gQ  lease  fnuii  i.risoii 100.00  2,00;{.!I4 

0,S(i  seal    skins   on      board      I  lie     "Carolcna" 

when   seizt'd   and   not   reluriied,     at    f7 

per  skin ?4,SO2.00 

Total  Exhibit  (A) #l4,im.:{:{ 

Q. — Did  you  declare  lo  Ihal?       A. — Yes.  T  supitose  1  did. 
l{e-dir<cl  cxaniinalion  by  Sir  Charles  11.  Tupjicr: 


2  39 


10 


lO 


ti. — Mr.  Warren,  in  },nvin>j;  voiir  opinion  sih  iu  (Iu-  viiliu'  of 
Hie  "<':irolt>nii"  ili<l  von  incind**  1Ii<-h<*  itt-nis  \vlii<-li  wonid  come 
in  nn<i<'r  (lu'  IhnmI  of  Hni»|»li«'H  or  onlfl<s?      A. — Xo. 

ii. — U('f<'rrin<;  1o  some  of  tlic  voiulicrK  flnit  wore  pnt  in 
vonr  liiindH,  an<l  tlic  i)U('slion  to  yon  iih  to  wlu'tlicr  these  iteniH 
were  clnirficiible  to  the  ontlit  aeconnt  of  tlie  snppl.v  iieconnt 
or  the  constrnction  !i<coiint;  h't  nie  talce  for  inHtance  abont 
the  two  ro])eM  and  tanl<s.  It  is  ]M)ssibh'  in  nuikin^;  out  nn 
aeconnt  for  vaiionw  vesselH  tliat  yon  wonld  find  tliese  it«'niH  in 
iiotli  snpjdy  account  and  ontlit  aeconnt  for  a  sealing  vessel? 
A. — Some  (tf  tliem  yon  wonld  find  in  botli. 

Q. — And  to  dt'llnilely  state  wlietliei-  these  wonld  a])]iear  in 
any  sinffle  case,  one  'iinst  have  tlie  partic  iilar  fact  in  mind,  is 
liiat  rifjlit?       A — Ves,  tliat  is  riifht. 

<}. — In  regard  to  vonr  goijig  to  Ottawa  and  acting  for  Mr. 
Mnnsie.  wliat  year  was  tliat?      A. — In  the  latter  jiart  of  1SS7. 

i}. — Xow.  take  this  declaration  abont  which  yon  were  ex- 
amined and  state  of  what  da<«'  is  that?  A. — 2Htli  of  Novem- 
ber  IS-^T. 

Q. — When  you  w<'nr  to  Ottawa  had  yon  previonsly  confer- 
red with  the  owners  of  difl'erent  vessels  that  had  been  seized. 
A. — I  did  here  in  X'ictoria. 

Q. — Had  yon  gone  carefully  into  the  facts  relating  to  tlie 
seizures.  A. — Well,  I  suppose  we  had  talked  it  over  con- 
siderably 

Q. — Ibit  not  into  the  items."      A. — Xo,  not  info  the  items. 

Q. — What  wer(>  yon  requested  to  do  when  yon  went  to  Ot- 
tawa so  far  as  llr.  Munsie  was  concerned? 

Tlie  ('(niimissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — Sir 
Charles,  how  many  times  is  this  witness  going  to  be  examin- 
ed?     Are  yon  not  o|)ening  ni>  a  new  topic  now? 

Sir  Charles  Uibbert  Tnjiper: — Xo,  your  Honour,  I  think  my 
learned  friend,  Mr.  Lansing,  will  agree  with  me  that  this  is  a 
matter  arising  out  of  his  cross-examination. 

The  Comiiiissiom  r  on  The  jiart  of  the  United  States: — I 
merely  ask  yon  if  you  are  not  opeiiiiig  a  new  subject,  and  if 
you  are  not  I  have  nothing  to  say. 

Sir  Charles  llibberl  Tujiper: — I  am  simply  examining  on 
a  point  brought  out  for  the  first  time  on  tiie  cross-examination 
of  my  learned  friend,  Mr  Lansing.  If  there  was  any  irregu- 
larity it  was  in  my  learned  friend  going  info  tin-  matter  on 
cross-exaniinaticMi. 

The  «'oniiiiissi(mer  on  the  part  of  the  I'liUed  States: — My 
only  object  was  to  save  time. 

-Q       Sir  Charles  Ilihbert  Tujiper: — 1  only  desire  to  show  how 
"*     Caiitain  Warren  came  to  make  this  declaration  and  the  pro- 
priety of  every  statement  he  made. 

The  <"onimissioiier  on  the  part  of  the  I'liifed  Sfaf«'s: — That 
is  evidence  that  is  ]ierfinent. 

Sir  Charles  llibberl  Tapper: — To  do  that  I  must  bring  Cap- 
tain Warren  (o  Mcltn-ia  before  we  get  to  Ottawa  and  see 
under  what  ciicirnsfances  he  nia<1e  this  statenieiit  on  his  in- 
formation and  belief.      (To  the  witness.) 

Q. — Cajitain  Warn  n,  before  going  to  Ottawa  on  that  oc- 
casion, I  understand  you  to  say  you  saw  .Mr.  Munsie,  and  oth- 
ers interested  in  the  \essels  thai  had  been  seized,  is  that 
li^tht?      A.— Y>'S. 

(i.— What  were  you  r((|uested  by  them  to  do?  A. — Well, 
i.i  the  first  jdace,  each  of  the  claimants  made  out  their  own 
stateiiieiilH  here,  and  I  think  they  were  all  sent  on  to  Ottawa 
we  consulted  afterwards,  and  concluded  that  it  was  best  for 


40 


Oo 


• 


:i    'i'; 


lil 


.r 


,i!1  I'l        '(■•^r^R^ 


•  iu»»('.:j 


240 

H()iiu>  iH'i'Kon  to  ^o  llu'iH',  HO  tliiit,  tf  tlicrc  W118  liny  otlitT  in 
fofiiiatiou  wan'^"(l  11  pt  ihoii  roiild  Ih'  on  tlic  Hpot  to  fflvi'  it,  iind 

I   WIIH  H('h'ft«'(l. 

(i. — To  what  placo  in  Ottawa  did  ,vou  taiio  uncli  informa- 
tion aH  .vou  liad?      A. — To  tlif  (iovcrnnicnt. 

ii. — Wlio  anHi8t«'d  ,v«)n  tlu-rc  in  |)i-*'imrinf;  tlnw  claiinH.  A. 
— Mr.  ll»'l,v('a. 

(i. — And  an  olliccr  of  tlic  dcjiartnn'nt?  A. — 1  don't  liardi.v 
tliinlv  tli('r«>  w«H.  Mr.  Hclvca  was  rt'coinnuMnh'd  to  nic  l»,v 
10  til*'  H(>nonrabl<>  Mr.  PoHtor. 

Q. — Did  not  an  otticcr  of  tlic  d*>|>artni*'nt  aHHist  .von  in  i>r«'- 
IHirin^  tlu'  <'lainiH?  A. — I  tliinlv  wo  liad  tlic  numt  of  it  to  do 
onrwIvoB. 

Q. — Mr.  Tlclycn  was  at  tliat  tiiiic  fonnHcl  wiih  ho  not?  A. 
— Hi*  waH,  ycR,  and  is  Htill.  I  tliiiil<. 

Q. — And  tlu'  roHiilt  of  tliat  was  in  ('onnci'tion  witli  tin*  caHc 
of  tlu'  "rarolonn."  tliat  yon  were  adviwd  to  niak«»  this  Holcnin 
di'claration  about  wliich  yon  liavc  lM'«'n  oxaniinod?      A. — \vn. 

Q. — Mr.  LaiiHinf;  read  Section  7.  wliicli  statcH  certain  factH 
20  on  yonr  belief.  liOoking  at  that  docnnnMit.  are  there  not 
other  iiaraKrapIiH  in  that  declaration  alHo  on  yonr  infornia- 
tion  and  belief,  and  also  Htatin),'  that  yon  were  inftn-nied  by 
William  MnnHie  of  the  accuracy  of  <"ertain  charueH  in  tlu? 
statement.  Exhibit  "A"  that  was  read  to  yon?      .\. — Yes. 

Q.— That  is  so?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — From  whom  was  this  information  obtained.  For  In- 
stance when  yon  state  'That  this  statement  comprises  the  out- 
fit of  the  sclKHiiier,  and  iill  of  which  1  verily  believe.'  wnR 
that  a  bald  statement  of  yonr  own.  or  had  von  information  on 
30   it?     .\. — That  was  information  from  Mr.  ^fnnsie. 

Q. — From  Mr.  Mnnsie  direct?     A. — Yes. 

Examination  of  Mr.  Warren  closed. 

Charles  Kprinf^,  of  the  City  of  X'ictoria,  a  witness  piodiic  'd 
on  behalf  of  Oreat  Itritain,  was  duly  sworn: 

Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Iteiqne: 

Q. — Mr.  Sprinji,  wliere  do  yon  reside?      A. — In  ^'ictoria. 

y. — How  lonj;  have  yon  lived  in  N'ictoria?  A.— All  my  life 
iilmost. 

Q. — I  believe  yon  are  in  the  sealing  business  and  have  bei'n 
for  SI  number  of  years?  A. — I  have  been  up  tt>  four  years 
aj,'o. 

(i. — When  did  you  commence  to  be  interested  in  the  seal- 
inj;  business?      .\. — In  the  snninier  of  1SS4. 

Q. — And  up  to  fcMir  years  ap»  yon  remained  in  tliat  Im.si- 
ness  ?      A . — Continuously. 

H. — I  believe  yon  owned  a  number  of  sealini?  scliooners,  did 
yon.      A. — I  did. 

(J. — Take  the  c(Miiiiiiinicatioii  in  Exhibit  1(1.  and  state  in 
which  of  these  schooners  therein  mentioned  vou  were  iiitiT- 
ested  in  ISSK  and   1SS7?       A.— Three. 

Q.— Which  were  they?  A.— The  "Favorite"  the  "K.ite" 
and  the  "Onward." 

Q.— Was  the  "Kate"  in  Reining  Sea  in  18S(!?      A  — \<>. 

Q.— Was  she  in  ItehriniJ'  Sea  in  1HS7?  A.— I  will  not  be 
positiv«'ly  certain,  but  T  think  she  was. 

Q. — Do  yon  know  any  of  the  schooners  which  are  mention- 
ed ill  that  exhibit.  1(!,  and  which  cleared  for  Hehriiifi  Sea,  and 
wliicli  did  not  fjo  to  Hehrinn  Sea;  <an  you  mention  one  besidi's 
the  "Kate?"  A.—  I  (aiiiiot  speak  about  tli(>  others.  1  am 
only  sure  about  "Kate."      She  was  not  in  there  in  ISSti. 

Q. — Were  the  vessels  in  which  you  were  interested  fo:-  sale 
in  1S80  or  in  1SS7.  A.— Not  that  I  was  directly  interested 
in.       No. 

Q. — Did  you  know  the  Carolena  in  188()?      A. — Yes. 


40 


50 


60 


241 


10 


20 


t|. — Wliiit  oiM'iiHioii  liad  ,v«u  of  knowing  Iht?  A. — Veil 
jiiHl  h,v  wciiif;  litT  ^o  in  anil  on!  of  llit>  Imrbor,  and  nic>-tin^ 
her  down  on  tlio  wt'Ht  coaMt  at  tinicH. 

H. — Wfi't'  j'ou  WW  on  luT?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Had  .vou  Hiinicicnf  knowlt'djjc  (»f  tlu*  "Caroh'na  "to  form 
an  opinion  hh  to  Iut  vainc?      .\. — Yes. 

(2. — Wiiat  did  von  conHidcr  tier  valn»>  for  mtilinK  purponon 
to  licr  ovvnoi"  tlu'n?  A. — At  tinit  linn'  I  W4»nld  cortaiidy  Ha,v 
slu>  waH  worth  any  wlicn'  in  the  nci^idtorhood  of  y:{,S(l()  or 
l||t4,(l(IO. 

(J. — Will  yon  utatf  from  yonr  cxiu'rii'iu'c  wliat  in  tlic  valn«' 
of  niattrcHm'H  and  bfddiiiK  i»**'d  by  t\  wliitc  crow  on  Hoalin); . 
H('lioon«'r8,  that  !«  fjoncrally  Hjicakinj!;?       A. — I'wd     by     tlio 
nit>n? 

Q. — YcH,  ownt'd  and  nwd  by  Iho  men?  A. — They  nii^jlit 
vary,  the  nuittrcHH  wonld  bo  valin-d  at  anything  fnmi  ftt  to 
Ifld.      In  dopcndt'd  on  what  tlu>  men  felt  lik(>  Hpondin);. 

Q.— That  is  |r)  or  |l(>  for  oach  man?  A.— Yes,  for  each 
man. 

Mr.  Hieqne: — We  wonld  lik«'  to  reserve  the  ri^jht  to  recall 
tliis  witness  on  (lie  t|n(>stion  of  cat<'h.  We  do  not  i>ropose  to 
examire  him  now  on  that  qnestion. 


40 


Oo 


Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Dickinson: 


A.— 


ii. — Were  tlu're  any  mattresses  (m  tlie  "T'nrolena?" 
I  tliink  it  was  wry  likely,  but  I  do  not  know  positively. 

(.}. — Do  yon  know  anything  abont  it?      A. — No. 

(.}.  -  (snally  the  men  furnish  tlieir  own  bedding  on  a  seal- 
inf{  scliooner,  don't  tliey?       A. — Yes. 

Q.— They  were  not  a  jmrt  of  tlie  ship's  equipment  were 
tliey?      A. — \\'ell  no,  not  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.— You  are  a  claimant  liere,  are  you  nor  before  tliis  cinn- 
mission?      A. — Yes. 

Q  — How  many  claims  are  you  interested  in?      .\. — Five. 

(J. — \V!)en  were  you  on  the  "<*arolenai?"      .\.--!n  IS^"). 

Q. — I'etore  she  was  a  sealer?  A. — H  was  in  the  sjirir..^  of 
IS8(i,   r  think. 

(J. — VMnre  was  she  then?      .\. — Slie  was  in  \  ictori.i  Ik  le. 
It  WIS  while  she  was  at  anchor,  before  leivina;        I  was  also 
on  lier  down  on  the  coast. 
il. — Where  abouts  on  the  west  coast?      .\. — New  Thatez. 

(i. — What  time  in  1880?  A. — Early  in  the  sprinjj;,  I  should 
tliink  about  .\pril. 

Q. — Had  you  sailed  down  tliere?      A. — Yes. 

(J. — On  wliat?  A. — On  some  of  my  own  scliooneis,  I  do 
not  know  exactly  whicli  one.       I  went  on  some  of  my  vessels. 

Q. — Was  that  as  late  as  February  or  ^lanh  of  that  year? 
-V. — I  wonld  not  say,  but  it  was  soniewliere  in  the  neiglibor- 
liood  of  March  or  April. 

Q. — You  could  not  fix  the  date  you  went  di>wn  tliere  rn 
your  schooner?     \. — No. 

ti- — fan  you  fix  the  date  you  went  on  board  tlie  "Car- 
oleua"?     .\. — Yes. 

<i- — What  ]»art  of  the  ship  did  yon  go  on  when  you  went 
on  tile  "Carolena"?     A.— I  went  on  the  deck. 

<i. — Were  you  in  the  cabin?     .\. — Yes.  I  was  in  the  cabin. 

Q.— Did  you  look  into  the  hold?     A.— No. 

Q. — Did  you  examine  lier  rigging?  \. — I  did  not  examine 
licr.  luit  I  made  my  judgment  by  acfual  obsi-rvation. 

Q. — You  didn't  go  cm  board  to  see  what  she  was  worth? 
A. — Oh.  no,  just  simply  to  meet  somebody. 

Q- — You  just  went  down  there  to  m'et  s(Mue  one  else?  A. 
—That  was  all. 

Q. — You   did  not  examine  her  timbers?     A. — T  examined 
lar  ill  no  way  whatever,  I  just  went  on  board  to  see  some  one. 
Ifi 


,;i;i^ 


!1 


itillii 


111 


t^ — W'liH  tin-  •  riiidlciin"  liiuliii),'  down  tlu'n*?      A. — Ycm. 

ii. —  Wliiit  wiiH  llic  "riiroli'iiii"  (loiiiK  tlii-rc?  A. —  I  tliiiik 
slu-  wiiH  (Ik'I'c  cii^ii^'cd  in  III*  tli'Ht  phut'  in  liiltiii);  ({(hkIh 
down  h>  till'  li'iidin^  poHt. 

(i.— Tliiit    WIIH    Ffliniiii.v  <ir  Manli.  IMMt!.     A.— Alioiil  that 

lillK. 

(i.— WiiN  it  (IN  lull'  lis  Miinli?     A.— I  tliini<  ho. 

i]. — And  sill'  wiiH  tlii'ii  I'ntriip'd  in  tliiH  iiiiiic  down  on  (ii*- 
i-otiNt  of  X'lini'oiivrv  [siand,  about  liow  many  niiit's  from  lit'i't'? 
lo    A.— Alioiit  L'tld. 

(j. — Sli«'  wiiN  I'li^aui  <I  tin'i'c  as  iaii*  as  March  taliin^  ^oodn 
.(htwii  to  till'  Iradiii};  iionI?     A.— Yes, 

(2. — Yoiif  fallii'i"  lias  a  Iriidin^  post  tlicic.  A. — No,  Mr. 
Miinsic  has. 

(i. — .Mr.  .Miinsit'  has  pit  a  trading'  post  at  tliis  phicc  about 
L'(Hl  mill's  from  licrt'?     .V. — ^'t-s. 

(i. — Kid  .vou  sec  any  (roods  unloaded  fioin  the  "Caroli'iia" 
at  that  point?     A.— No. 

il. — Did  you  sec  any  ptods  jtiit  aboai'd  of  hor?     A. No. 
20       (i- — How  louK  wci'c  you  at  this  port  during;  tlu'  occasion 
of  that  visit  in  Marcii?      A. — Two  or  three  days. 

(i.— Was  .Mr.  .Miinsie  ther<'?     A.— No. 

i}. — Did  you  see  any  froods  from  the  "t'aroleiia"  at  the 
Iradinp;  post'.'  A. — Well,  I  saw  {.'oods  there,  and  I  judn(  d 
iliey  must  be  from  her. 

(j. — What  noods  did  you  S'-c  lanih'd  there"'  A. — .Merchan- 
dise of  all  sorts  used  in  Indian  trade. 

Q.. — Could  you  trive  us  any  idea  of  what  kind  of  merchan- 
di-ie  it  was?     .\. — Flour,  supii,  biscuits,  &c. 
^Q       <i. — .\nythiiin    else?     A. — Similar    ^oods,  such  as  various 
kinds  of  clothinj;. 

(i.--l'ilot  bread  and  that  sort  of  thini;.     .\. — Yes. 

t^. --Pilot  bread  is  a  fieipu'iit  article  of  trade  UM'd  in  trad 
inn  witli  the  Indians,  is  it  not?     .\. — Yes. 

<i.— I'ilot  bread  is  very  rarely  used  as  part  of  the  stores  uF 
•'.  s'.'!ili!i;j:  ve,.isel.  Ii  is  used  more  often  for  trading  with  tin' 
lii'l'i'iis  tlii'.n  it  is  on  a  sealinjr  vessel?  A. — Well,  I  U8<  1'  tii 
fiirnish  it  all  the  time. 

(2.— For  tradinjj;  or  for  sealing  purjioses?  A. — For  sealing; 
purposes. 

il — For  Indians  or  for  white  men?  A. — For  both  white 
men  :>.nd  for  Indians. 

(i — It  is  not  a  favorite  .irticle  of  diet  for  white  hunlers? 
A. — There  is  no  particular  objection  esjiecii'llv  anions  the  In- 

dif.llK. 

(^ --Did  ^■oll  see  some  jiilot  bread  here  that  you  esiimaled 
was  landed  f!om  the  "t'arolena"  from  this  particular  trad- 
iixji  post?     -V. — Y(  s. 

Q. — Now.  wlio  was  there  on  tlie  "Carolena"  that  you 
visited?     .\.— (n\<)i    rhoimts. 

(i.  -  V\  Ir.il  was  his  duties  on  tlie  "("arolena"?  .\. — I  think 
he  >\as  master. 

<i.— In  I'-Si;?     A.— Yes 

C^. -That  is  Icfore  she  went  "■•  her  sealiufj  voyat;e  to 
Hi  lirill},'    Sea"'     .\. — Yes. 

ii. — .Vnd  as  late  as  .March  you  think?     .\. — Yes. 

i). — Do  "(Ml  k'low  where  (hven  Thomas  is  now?  A. — No, 
I  do  not. 

(>.  —  Is  lie  a  resident  of  X'ictona?     A. — Yes. 

(]. —  lie  lives  here  now?     A. — Yes. 

(}. — .Viid  he  was  there  on  the  "( 'arolena"  in  .Marcli.  IS'^'I, 
It  tiiat  tradiuf;  jiost?     A. — Yes,  as  near  as  I  can  remembi'V. 

(^- JHd  he  tell  you  what  he  came  up  to  this  tradin;;  post 
for  in  the  spring  ;>t  1M,S(J?     ,\. — No. 

(). — Whdi  did  .\eu  uo  to  see  lier,  or  rather  whian  did  you 

no  to  see  oi!  board  tl t'arolena"?     A. — It  was  just  a  mattcc 

if  a  visit  I  paid  her,  that  was  all. 


40 


SO 


60 


243 


(j.  -I>l<l  3011  liiivc  iiii.v  tiilk  Willi  (III-  <'ti|iliiiii  iiM  III  iiliiMil 
liiiw  lorift  III'  woiilil  Hlii,v  or  wlial  iir  wiih  iluiii^  llwrt'''  A,  — 
No.  I  roiirliiilcd  I  kiii'W  wi'll  i-iioiiuli.  it  wiik  11  iniillei'  wltli 
iiiiii  of  ^i-lliui;  I't'jiily  for  Hailing  aH  hooii  hh  poHHililf. 

ii. — Yoii  km  \v  111'  wan  toniiiiff  Imck  lo  V'Ulorln?  A.— No, 
I  dill  nut. 

ti. — Yon  illil  not  i"i(|iiiri-?      A. — No. 

Q. —  hid  ,vou  Hi-i'  any  IioiiIm  kimiik  to  anil  friitn  tin*  'Taro- 


li-iiii. 


Is  llicri'  a  wliaif  at  tlilH  ti-ailiiiK     pimt' 


10   tiu'i'i-  Ih  not. 

Q. — Wlii'ii   tli(',\    lo'iilril  III-  iinioaili'il,  tln-v   woiilil   liavr   lo 


;o  out  in  siiiall  lioalH  lo  llii>  "t'aroli-na?" 


-Vl'H. 


il. —  Did  you  hi'i-  any  lioatH  >{oiiifj;  lo  and  fioni  I  In-  "Caro- 
li'na"  wliili"  yon  witi-  llii-ri'?      .V. —  I  would  not  nay  lliat  I  did. 

(i.— Would  yon  sa,\  Mini  you  did  not?  Wlial  \h  yonr  Iti-Kt. 
iiilii'f  aliont  flial?  .\. —  It  '\h  very  liki-ly.  Tlii-ri'  iniiHt  liavo 
lii-i'ii  Kiiini-,  willionl  my  making;  an  ohsiTvation  of  it. 

H. — W'lii'i'i'  did  yoii   Hlav  at   tiiis   lradiii;i;   jiosl     yonrMi-lf? 
WiiH  it  oil  your  own  HilioomT?      A. — \Vi'  wi-ri-  travi-lliiiK  in 
20   *  JiiiocM  at  till'  liiii*'.  HO  lliat  I  liail  to  Htay  iihIioi-c  at  nielli. 

iy — Wi'ic  yon  llirrc  wlii'ii  tlii'  "t'arolcna"  put  onl  of  the 
port?      A. — Yi'M. 

i-i. — l»o  you  know  in  what  dii-i-rlion  mIii'  Nailed?  .V. — Hlu' 
wi'nt  ri^ht  out  to  si-a. 

ii. — Did  you  sec  any  IndiaiiH  alioni  ln-r  at  the  tiini'  hIio  waH 
llicri'?      A. — On  hoard  Iiit? 

Q. — YcH?  A. — (  did  not  oIihitvi'  at  all.  I  Hiinply  knew 
slif  WIIH  nmufi  to  Ht'u  and  I  niadi'  no  partirnlar  ohsi'i-vatioiiK. 

(i. — Do  yon  know  of  lii-r  hnyiiin  K'l.v  ciiiioi'H  tluTc  at  tlu; 

^o  '•""'  ■       hnl  <li<'  "Canilcna"  hiiy  any  raiioi-H  thiTi'  while  you 

were  there  and  iip  to  the  lime  yon  saw  lier  jjr<*  out?       A. — 

Slie  niiist  liiive  had  liinoeH  lint  I  do  not  know  of  any  bnyiiiK' 

ii. — Did  yon  Kee  any  wlien  you  viwited  her?  Did  yon  see 
any  011  lier  decks?      .\. — No  she  did  not  have  any  tlieii. 

Q. —  Did  you  see  any  ianoe.s  about  lier  or  in  the  water  about 
lier?      A. — No  iiiore  than  ordinary  jiassin^;  ninoes. 

(.y — They  would  be  employed  in  the  ordinary  trattie  be- 
tween her  iind  the  shore?      .\. — Yes. 

i-i. — Where  were  you  when  she  sailed?      \. — I  was  ashore 
40   some  where. 

(i. — Yon  saw  lier  sail?      .\. — Yes. 

i}. —  Mad  yon  been  on  her  that  day?      .\. — No.  not  that  day. 

il — Had  you  been  on  her  the  day  before?  A. — No,  but  on 
I  lie  day  before  that  aj^ain. 

ii. — Your  father  was  interested  in  trading  there  too?  A. — 
lie  had  been,  l>al  not  at  that  time. 

(i. — Do  you  know  anylhinj{  about  the  priee  of  canoes  at 
that  jioint  at  that  time?'     A.— No. 

i}. — Von  do  not  know  what  they  cost  there?       A. — No,  not 
50   thire. 

. — Do  you  know  what  thev  would  cost  any  where  alonfj 


Well, 


)f  course,  there 


60 


that  coast?      A.— Yew. 

(J.— What   would  they  cost! 
are  ditTerent  kinds  of  canoes. 

Q.— I  know,  but  just  },'ive  yonr  own  statement  of  the  kinds 
of  canoes  and  the  lu-ice.  A. — Sealinn  canoes  I  have  known 
to  be  bonsrht  at  Iroiii  ^ti  lo  ijf.SO  and  ^40. 

Q. — What  were  the  dimensions  of  the  hinhest  jirice  canoes? 
A. — They  wmild  all  be  about  the  same  size,  it  would  all  de- 
jiend  on  the  stability,  ciuality  and  form  of  build. 

Q.— The  pi  c.'inoe  mifilit  be  the  same  size  as  the  ?4(i  ones? 
A.— Yes. 

U. — What  was  the  best  material  of  which  canoes  w'-re 
built  and  whicti  bron^'ht  the  hiifhest  ju'ice  of  ?p40?  .\. — It 
is  not  the  malerifil.  it  is  I  he  work,  modelliii}!  and  the  stability. 

(). — What  makes  the  difference  between  the  low  jirice  and 
llie  hiirli  jiriic  canoe,  tell  ii.s  in  your  own  opinion,  and  in  your 


i  j! 


ill 


iri 


i!:!  lit!  M 


244 


'«|M 


II, 1 


lO 


30 


40 


50 


own  way?  A. — Woll.  aocordinp;  to  the  miinb'>r  of  pieces  the 
I'iiuoe  was  built  from.  A  cauoe  that  was  specially  built 
woultl  be  a  canoe  that  was  built  of  thret^  pieces. 

Q. — The  best  canoe  is  built  of  three  pieces?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Is  it  coppered  or  braced  at  the  knees?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — I  think  in  the  best  canois  the  ribs  are  steamed,  are 
th«y  not?      A. — Yes,  stmietinies. 

Q. — Were  there  any  hunters  on  board  of    the    "Carolenu" 


when  you  were  on  board  of  her  up  at  the  trading  post? 
Not  to  my  knowledge. 


A.— 


any 


A. — There  may  have  been  but  I 


(i. — Did  you  see 
did  not  observe. 
Q. — Did  you  see  any  ashore  from  the  "Carolena?" 


A.— 


They  are  all  Indians 


They  are  all  hunters,  you  might  say. 
up  there. 

Q. — Did  you  see  any  hunters  ashore  that  came  from  the 
'"Carolena?"      A. — No,  I  do  not  remember. 

Q. — ITow  large  a  place  is  this  trading  post?      How  many 
white  people  are  there  there?      A. — There  are  no  white  peo- 
20   pie  there  except  the  white  people  that  trade. 

(J. — Not  one  except  the  i)eoi)le  in  the  trading  post,  and  all 
the  rest  are  Indians?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Did  you  see  any  white  people  there  except  the  ship's 
crew  of  the  Carolena.  and  the  jjeople  trading  at  the  post  and 
occupied  there?  A. — Do  you  ask  me  if  I  saw  any  other  white 
l)eople  there? 

Q. — Yes?  A. — Not  outside  of  those  that  were  travelling 
with  me. 

Q. — You  were  at  the  trading  post  for  how  long?A. — Three 
days. 

Q. — You  did  not  see  any  white  jjeople  there  except  those 
engaged  at  the  trading  post?     A. — No. 

Q. — Nor  you  didn't  see  any  one  on  the  "Carolena''  except 
llie  ship's  <'rew,  is  that  right?     A. — That  is  right. 

Ke-direct  exmaination  by  Mr.  Heitpie: 

(.i. — Mr.  Sj)ring.  you  have  stated  that  you  were  interested  in 
live  different  claims  before  this  ( 'ommission.  but  y<ni  are  not 
interested  in  the  present  claim  of  the  "(.'arolena,"  are  vou? 
A.— No. 

H. — Did  you  buy  any  canoes  in  IHHfi  yourself?  A. — I  must 
have  bought  some. 

H. — Where  did  you  buy  them?  .\. — I  think  they  were 
bought  at  different  i)lac<'s  on  the  coast. 

(.i. — You  bought   several?     A. — Several. 

(2. — Is  ^4(1  the  higlu'st  price  that  vou  paid  for  canoes?  A. 
—Yes. 

Q. — You  do  not  know  of  any  that  were  sold  for  fr>(>?  .V. — 
No,  not  to  my  ]K'rsonal  knowledge. 

(■i. — How  long  was  the  "Carolena"  at  that  trading  post 
while  you  were  tliere?     A. — I  do  not  know. 

(i.— Do  you  renu'iiiber  if  she  was  there  for  a  whole  day  or 
for  <mly  a  part  of  a  day?  .\. — 1  know  slie  was  there  for  the 
whole  lime  I  was  there.  I  was  there  about  three  days  and 
about  the  same  time  I  left  she  left. 


30 


40 


50 


Kxamination  of  the  witness  closed. 


.Mr.  I's'lers: — We  now  piopose  if  vour  Ibuioiirs  please  to  go 
into  another  branch  of  the  case,  and  to  prodiice  evidence  of 


rx) 


the  catch  made  in  the  venrs  ISStt  and  ISS7.     Hefore 


we  give 


"vidence  on  that  point  we  propose  to  put  in  evidence  certain 
'idniissi(Uis  made  by  the  Cnitetl  States  in  their  case  before  the 
Paris  Tribunal.  I  now  refer  not  to  any  secctndary  evidence 
or  atlidavits  or  nnythiiig  of  that  kind,  but  to  foiiiial  state- 
ments made  in  their  case.  1  shall  i|uole  .ilways  from  the 
CISC  of  the  liiited  Sl.ites,  \'ol.  'J,  of  the  .\merican  He-print. 
.\l  ;  ige  IMH  the  following  extract  is  ftnind; 


Co 


i 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


245 

"In  18S.'?  till'  schooner  rtjin  Dio^o  <>ntered  Itchring  Sea  and 
it'turiKHl  to  Victoria  with  upwards  of  2,(1(10  skins.  This  gavo 
;in  impetus  to  tlie  trade,  and  new  vessels  enibariied  in  tlie 
enterprise." 

At  paRO  125  also  of  the  case  of  the  United  States  the  fol- 
lowina;  statement  is  found: 

"The  herd  spreads  alon>j  the  coast  in  a  long  irregular  body, 
generally  advancing  northward  until  they  Itegin  to  ent«'r 
Rehring  Sea  in  May  or  June,  through  the  cnstern  i)a8sage  of 
the  Aleutian  Islands,  seldom  going  west  of  the  Four  Aloun- 
tain  I'ass.  Hut  the  last  of  the  herd  do  not  have  the  Pacific 
nceaa  until  .July.  The  cows,  however,  are  practically  out  of 
till'  I'iiiitie  ocean  by  the  middle  of  .lune.  A  chart  showing 
(his  migration  has  been  prepared  from  the  data  contained  in 
the  depositions  herewith  submitted." 

wish  to  put  before  the  Commission  that  chai't 


I 
will  put  in  evidence  as  "Exhibit  17  <}.B.,  (Maim  No. 
marked  with  a  tag  ou  it,  called  "migration  Chart :{. 

Received   in 
Claim  No.  1. 


which  I 
1.     It  is 


evidence  and    numbeied    Exhibit   17  (<}.   R.) 


These  charts  that  I  am  referring  to  now,  I  may  state  gcn- 
<Mally,  are  all  « harts  issued  by  tiie  I'nited  States  Government 
and  used  befon'  (he  I'aris  Tribunal. 

Mr.  Lansing: — I  think  I  heard  Sir  Charles  Tupi)er  say  that 
(his  was  used  in  Paris.  It  was  not  used  at  Paris,  but  there 
was  one  drawn  specially  and  used  for  that  purpose  there.. 

Sir  (Mmrles  H.  Tupi)er: — It  was  pai't  of  the  Cnited  States 
cas<'  served  on  the  Hritish  agent.  It  came  from  \')ur  govern- 
ment. 

Mr.  Lansing: — In  the  counter  case  (»f  the  I'.  S.  p.  1(1.5,  the 
following  statement  ai)pear8: 

"From  the  further  data  mentiimed  above  a  new  migration 
char(  has  been  drawn  correcting  and  modifying  the  one  of  the 
Cnited  States." 

Mr.  I'eters: — If  the  amended  chart  is  not  in  the  papers  con- 
nected with  the  case  I  shall  have  it  put  in. 

On  jiage  .'U;Si,  Vol.  2.  of  the  I'nited  States  cas<>  American 
re-i»rint,  the  following  statement  appears: 

"It  must  therefore  be  «'videnl  that  if  these  aninials  were 
I'olhiwed  into  the  Hehring  sea  and  hunted  down  in  a  calm  sea 
in  the  quhtest  month  of  the  year,  a  practically  unlimited 
(piantity  of  females  might  be  taken,  and  as  you  say  it  w<»uld 
only  b«'  a  few  years  until  the  Alaska  seal  was  a  tiling  of  the 
past." 

I  draw  your  Honours'  attention  to  the  words: 

"Practically  an  unlimited  quantity  of  females  might  be 
taken." 

I  will  refer  now  to  the  case  of  the  I'nited  States,  Vol.  .'I,  of 
the  Aniciican  re  pi-int,  and  I  thid  therein  an  atlidavit  jiut  for- 
ward by  the  I'nited  States  of  one  William  Hrennan,  who  is 
described  at  j»age  ;W7  as  follows:  "W'ilHam  Hrennan  being 
lirsi  duly  sworn  deposes  and  says" — 

Mr.  Dickinson:— M'e  object  to  the  testimony  from  this 
source,  may  it  please  your  Iloncmrs.  If  we  enter  upon  that 
we  can  dismiss  the  case  of  the  I'nited  Slates  by  quoting  the 
Uritish  case.  My  learned  friend  uses  the  I'nited  Slates 
(■ase  to  show  (hat  the  seals  can  be  found  in  certain  placi's  ii. 
neliring  Sea  in  unlimited  »|iuinti(ies.  and  (ha(  they  are  all 
lemales,  but  we  can  show  you  beyond  a  shadow  of  a  doubt 


H! 


,il'ly 


!  '■'■ 


■,'*! 


;•»:■;!: 


!i^' 


•.i:. 


■n:t  M 


!i!,| ! 


*<t«(n 


•     \ 


246 

from  tlu>  ISrilisli  ciisc  tlui)  Wwy  arc  mostly  innlcR  and  pupH. 
\V(>  can  dcnionHtiatc  Uiat  tlwy  could  not  be  (akcn  as  nsscricd 
hy  the  I'liilcd  States,  and  iiiasninch  as  tlu'  I'nited  States 
were  beah'n  lief'ore  (lie  Paris  Tribunal  I  tliink  the  British 
case,  if  we  put  i(  in.  wouhl  likely  upset  the  American  case  on 
that  ]ioint.  It  doe.-i  seem  to  nie  that  the  arttnment  of  the 
United  States  or  the  arffunient  of  (Sreat  Hrltain,  or  the  auth- 
orities cited  by  either  one.  or  the  evidence  ]»resented  by  eith- 
er side  on  this  (|nestion  of  the  habits  of  the  fur  seals  cannot 

10  be  competent  to  this  liearin};.  If  that  is  allowed  your  hon- 
(turs  will  have  to  di'cide,  because  the  Fnited  States  and  (Jreat 
Hritain  were  in  conHict  on  these  very  ]>oints  as  to  which  my 
learned  friend  cites  the  Inited  States  case.  If  this  kind 
of  evid<'nce  has  any  bearinji  at  all.  your  ITonourw  will  have 
to  take  that  issue  that  was  before  the  Paris  Tril>iiiinl  and 
decide  which  nation  was  rittht.  We  are  certainly  not  bound 
by  this  evidence  here  in  another  cas(>  between  ditT«'rent  ]tart- 
ies.  and  after  the  decision  of  the  Taris  Tribunal.  I  sulnnit 
that  this  evidence  can  hardly  be  included  in  the  class  tliat  is 

20  called  suitable  and  authentic  testimony.  T'nless  your  hon- 
ours have  all  the  facts  which  were  jnesent  at  the  I'aris  Tri- 
bunal, upon  which  this  argument  was  based  th(>n  we  should 
not  have  anv  of  it. 


Ifr.  Peters: 
davits. 


-.\r<>  von  I'eferrini;  to  the  case,  or  to  the  afli- 


40 


Mr.  Dickinson: — To  both. 

Mr.  I'eters: — My  Karned  friend  seems  to  overlook  the  ob- 
30  ject,  wilh  whicli  this  evidence  is  put  in,  1  may  state  frankly 
ttiat  it  bears  on  tiie  allej.?atiou  that  in  IM)S(i  and  18M7  we  were 
prevented  from  catchinj'  seals  as  we  had  a  perfect  rifjht  to  do. 
We  alle},'e  that  in  is,s(i  and  ISKT,  if  we  had  been  allowed  to 
Ko  on  with  the  catchiii};  of  seals  tliere  were  plenty  of  seals  to 
be  cauylit,  and  our  opportunity  for  catchin>!;  them  was  tirst- 
class.  2sow  how  are  we  atlemptin}^  to  prove  tliis  in  the  Urst 
l»lace.  We  say  that  the  Inited  States  from  the  be^inuin^ 
have  put  forward  that  very  case  themselves.  We  say  that  at 
Paris  it  was  frankly  admitted  by  both  parties,  that  especially 
in  ISHti  when  the  lirst  seizure  look  place  the  tinu'  and  circum- 
stance were  favorable  to  catchinf;  a  lar^e  qtnmtity  of  seals. 
My  learned  friend  Mr.  Dickinson  says  that  in  the  evidence  (m 
behalf  of  the  Inited  Slates  you  will  tind  that  n(»tliin,u  but 
cows  were  killed,  wliile  in  the  Uritish  case  you  will  tind 
atlidavits  to  prove  ilnil  nothiufi;  but  males  were  killed. 
W'iiile  they  ditVer.  perha])s,  as  to  the  ijender  of  the 
seals,  both  sides  admitted,  and  that  is  whar  I  want 
to  show,  liiat  lliei'c  were  lots  of  seals  to  b.'  cauii'ht 
in  Hehrin^  Sea,  and  that  we  were  stopped  frimi  catcli- 
5'^  inir  them  when  we  iiad  a  ptod  oppoil unity  of  catcliinjt  jilenty 
of  IlK'tn.  The  I'acI  of  the  matter  is  lliai  the  Inited  Stale's 
put  a  certain  line  of  case  before  tlw  Paris  Tribunal.  Their 
case  was  that  pelaj;ic  sealinfj  was  doinj^  a  j-ood  deal  of 
harm,  and  in  order  to  pi'ove  that  they  jjive  <'videnc»'  to 
make  out  that  the  pela^iic  sealers  did  kill  and  could  kill  u 
lai'tfe  number  of  seals.  They  were  not  then  thinking  of  the 
i|uestion  of  compensation.  They  were  not  then  lliinkiii^'  that 
the  very  evidence  they  wert'  n'vin),'  minht  havi-  two  edKCH 
to  it.  and  that  by  and  by  when  we  came  to  the  <|uesti()n  of 
com])ensati(m.  this  very  evidence  might  be  tise- 
ful  foi-  us  in  proving  our  case.  The  I'nited 
States  availed  of  llial  evidence  to  prove  their  case 
b"l<ie  the  Paris  Tribunal,  and  they  haviiift  not  the 
benetit  of  thai  evidence  in  their  own  case,  surely  they  should 
not  deny  us  the  benetit  of  it  now.  They  caitnot  blow  hot  ami 
cold.  They  said  the  e\  ideiice  was  triM'  when  they  were  before 
the  Paris  Tribtinal.  and  if  it   is  true  why  should  they  object 


60 


.  5, 


10 


20 


;o 


247 

1()  oui'  usiiif;  it.  NVc  have  their  own  stiitciiiciit  tliat  seals 
were  ainiiidaiit  in  these  vears,  and  we  elaini  lliat  if  tliey  liad 
allowed  us  to  fjo  on  catehin^  them  we  would  have  caiinht  a 
hwjH'  number.  I  do  not  put  this  forward  as  secondary  evi- 
dence at  all.  I  put  it  forward  as  evidence  showiufj  (he  opin- 
ion of  the  I'nited  States  on  this  matter,  and  when  vour  Hon- 
ours come  to  read  this  evidence,  and  study  the  case  as  it  was 
before  the  Paris  Tribunal — as  1  know  your  Ilonouis  will  do. 
even  thoufjh  it  is  not  laid  before  you — it  will  appi'ar  to  you 
clearly  and  ])lainly  that  before  that  Tribunal,  the  greater  jMirt 
of  the  I  nited  States  case  went  upon  the  ((uestion,  which  they 
then  allep'd  to  be  a  fact  that  seals,  in  the  month  of  .Vtiffust 
und  .Inly,  especially  in  the  yeara  1S,S(!  and  1SH7,  were  very 
plentiful  and  that  the  op|tortunity  of  killing  them  was  very 
isiood.  That  is  the  object  with  which  we  put  this  evidence  in 
and  I  submit  to  your  Ifonours  that  it  is  admissible. 

Mr.  IMckinson: — I  am  not  raisinjj  a  (pieslion  of  sentiment, 
but  I  am  raisin};:  a  (piestion  of  the  relevancy  of  certain  evi- 
ilence.  The  fact  that  the  I'nited  States  showed  the  Paris 
Tritiunal  that  there  were  a  "jreat  many  seals  in  Mehrinfj  soa 
and  that  interference  with  them  by  hunters  in  such  a  manner 
IIS  was  iH'a<-ticed  would  ultimately  destroy  the  herd,  has 
nolhiuf;  whatever  to  do  with  this  case.  Yet,  on  this,  my 
learned  fiiends  seek  (o  show  in  their  theory  of  prospective 
catch  that  they  could  have  killed  with  their  sealiu}?  schooners 
and  their  crews  of  hunters  a  lai'ge  number  of  seals.  Your 
Honours  will  see  at  once  that  the  fact  that  there  was  a  lar};e 
nund)er  of  seals  in  Hehrinji  sea  within  a  certain  area  is  not 
competent  evidence  tending  to  show  that  the  shi]>  "Car- 
olena"  could  have  killed  all  the  seals  in  sifjht. 

Sir  Charles  H.  Tupjier: — It  is  one  of  the  steps  in  the  evi- 
dence. , 

Mr.  Dickinson: — It  is  not  one  of  the  steps  (>f  comjtetent 
proof.  Counsel  on  the  otlu-r  side  have  to  show  the  cai»a<-ity 
of  the  hunters;  they  have  to  show  that  white  hunters  kill 
more  than  Indian  hunters,  that  white  hunters  in  boats  kill 
nntre  than  hunters  in  cano(>s,  and  there  are  many  other  »'le- 
ments  that  entei'  into  it.  The  fact  that  seals  are  there  is 
admitted  on  all  sides.  There  is  no  (pu'Stion  of  the  fa<t  that 
seals  were  there  in  ISSt!  and  1SS7,  and  I  i>res>nne  they  are 
there  today,  but  it  does  not  follow  that  the  "Carolena"  ('(»uld 
have  kille<i  an  unltinited  number  of  seals  because  they  were 
there.  It  transjiires,  and  that  is  why  I  point  t<»  the  incom- 
petency of  tin-  t<*timony,  that  othei-  eh-ments  which  j-o  into 
the  case,  must  be  befoie  your  Honours  to  enable  you  to  form 
a  ,jud}<ineiit  as  to  what  the  ship  could  kill.  It  a])pears  by  th<> 
evidence  in  this  very  case,  that  more  seals  are  lost  than  are 
taken  on  the  slii]i,  because  when  a  seal  is  wounded  it  sinks, 
and  overi^md  over  aiiain  it  is  shown  in  that  case  that  wheie  a 
seal  is  wounded  at  any  distance  from  the  boat  it  is  almost 
certain  to  be  lost.  The  Indians  creep  u|)on  them  and  unless 
iliey  do  come  (piietly  upon  them  and  kill  them  asleep  tiiey 
lose  (he  seals  If  they  are  wounded.  They  must  catch  the  seal 
immediately  after  it  is  wounded.  Your  Honours  will  see 
that,  as  it  is  not  at  ail  siiitable  and  authentic  ju'oof  of  wliar 
the  "Car(dena"  could  have  caujrht,  to  show  that  the  seals  were 
there.     Theic  are  a   ^reat   many  elements   whii  ii  enter  Into 

The  Comniissicnier  on  the  jiart  of  the  I'nited  States: — Tho 
'Xtracts  from  the  .Vmcrican  case  wei'e  I'ead  without  any  suj;- 
'Aestion  of  an  objectimi  to  it.  th.'it  I  heaid.  What  is  the  i»ar- 
ticujar  matter  objecte<l  to  now? 

Ml'.  Peters: — The  jiiirticular  matter  objected  to  is.  I  believe, 
(lie  extract  from  the  allldavit  contained  in  the  I'nited  States 
case.     That  attidavit  is  i)art  and  jiarcel  of  their  ciiS'.  jiroduced 


40 


50 


l)ii 


■VI 
■Ilk 


tf 


248 


*iiMi> 


10 


by  tli«>  rnitcd  Stales  ffovcrnmcnt,  and  in  fact  is  tho  basis  of 
tiicir  orijiinal  '-asc. 

Tlu"  Coniniissioiicr  on  tlic  jiait  of  tlic  I'nih'd  States: — How 
many  of  llicwc  extrafts  do  you  pi-oposc  to  n'ad? 

Mr.  Pctors: — Not  a  j^n-cat  many  of  tliom  at  nil. 

Tlie  ConiniisHioner  on  tlie  part  of  tlio  Tnited  States: — I  un- 
derstood that  Mr.  Dickins-'on  admitted  that  tlie  seals  weie 
tliere. 

Mr.  Peters: — Mr.  Diekinson  has  i)ointed  out  several  thinfjs 
that  will  have  to  be  i>roved  before  tlu'  particular  jtortious 
of  the  T'nited  States  <'ase  I  have  read  will  be  of  any  use  to  us. 
I  ajjree  with  him  there.  We  must  take  the  evidence  step  by 
stejt  and  we  cannot  jtrove  it  all  at  once. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  jtnrt  of  the  T'nited.  States: — Mr. 
Dickinson,  does  your  objection  apply  to  the  extract  whi<'h  Mr. 
Peters  r«'ad  from  the   f'nited  Slates  case,  or  does  it   apply 
20   merely  to  the  affidavit  which  he  was  about  to  read? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — It  i>])jilies  both  to  the  affidavit  ami  to  the 
extract.  This  testimony  was  not  shown  to  us  previously — 
nnd  I  do  not  at  all  lake  any  exception  to  that — but  of  course, 
I  cannot  tell  what  it  is  until  Mr.  Peterw  reads  it.  I  cannot 
tell  whether  1  would  have  any  objection  to  it  at  all  until  T 
liear  what  it  is. 

The  <'omniissi<mer  on  the  jiart  of  the  T'nited  States: — Of 
lourse  not,  but  I  was  endeavorini;  to  ascertain  wliether  your 
30  objection  applies  to  the  extract  or  to  the  affidavit. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  object  to  both,  your  Honours.  I  ol)je(t 
to  a.  statement  of  conclusiim  on  a  case  on  a  contention  in 
which  the  I'nited  States  and  (ireat  ISrilain  were  parties.  I 
oltject  to  any  such  cont  lusiou  as  comiietent  evidence  to  sh(»w 
that  the  "Carolena"  could  catch  more  seals  than  she  did  catch. 
It  is  a  conclusion  upon  the  testimony.  How  could  your  Hon- 
ours citll  it  comjx'tent  testimony?  If  it  is  an  admission,  then 
by  all  the  rules  of  I'vidence  the  admission  must  be  read  into 
40  the  <ase  in  connection  with  every  circumstance  under  which 
it  is  nnide.  The  admission  must  be  read  into  the  case  with 
its  whole  environments,  and  if  he  reads  a  part  of  the  case  of 
the  I'nited  States  it  would  be  necessary  to  put  it  all  in  in 
order  to  {jive  your  Honours  any  idea  of  the  limtalions  of  the 
admission.  I'nder  the  most  jiiimary  rule  of  docunwutary 
proof  you  cannot  lake  one  paye  from  a  document  if  there  are 
two  paj;es  cm  it,  and  put  that  one  jia^e  in  as  evidence. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  jtart  of  Her  Majesty:— If  there  is 
JO  anything;  that  substantially  (|nalities  it  of  course  that  would 
ffo  in. 

Ml'.  Dickinson: — M.iy  it  j>lease  your  T-ordshi]).  the  whole  text 
qualities  il.  Where  are  we  ^oinn  *"  draw  the  line  on  this 
matter.  Shall  we  put  all  the  Cnited  States  case  in,  showinf,' 
the  cir<iimstances  under  whi<h  it  is  made  with  all  the  (|uali- 
fyiiiK  statements.  To  take  up  a  jiart  of  that  t(slimony  and 
put  il  in  is  not  only  not  <ompelent.  but  11  is  very  far  removed 
irom  it.  In  a  court  of  law  your  Honours  would  not  permit  il 
(iQ  for  a  moment.  II  is  not  suilable  testimony,  to  take  part  of 
an  ai'^jument  diawii  frmn  conclusions  of  facts  presented,  and 
I  har};<>  that  as  an  admission,  without  reatlin^  the  objettions 
on  which  it  is  based. 

The  Ccunmissiom'r  on  the  part  of  the  T'nited  States: — Do 
you  object  to  (uoof  of  any  kind  showiufj  the  frecpu'ntiiif!:  of 
Kehrin^r  Sea  by  seals  at  this  particular  date  spoken  of  by  Mr. 
Peters. 


!. 


1;  ,, 


lo 


30 


40 


50 


r,o 


249 

The  (\>nimiHsi(HU'r  on  Uw  part  <»f  Ilcr  Majesty: — f'ouUl  yon 
vtT.v  well  do  NO.  Mv.  DirkiiiHon.  It  appcarH  to  luo  that  no  per- 
son could  prove  Uie  whole  of  these  faelH  at  one  time,  and  the 
([ueHtion  Is:  Is  this  a  material  part  and  relevant  to  the  in- 
(piirv?  The  (question  then  for  yon,  as  asked  bv  my  learned 
colleafrne  is;  Do  you  or  do  you  not  say  that  it  is  competent 
to  the  other  side,  to  make  jtroof  that  seals  frequented  the 
lU'hring  Sea  in  large  numbers  in  188(i. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  liave  not  the  slij^htest  doubt  of  the  com- 
]ietency  of  that  proof. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — If  the 
(inestion  is  as  to  the  mode  of  proof,  then  we  have  to  discover 
whether  the  statements  made  by  the  Ignited  States  (lovern- 
ment  in  the  proceedinj^s  before  the  Paris  Tribunal  were  of  tlie 
nature  of  admissions  that  will  bind  (hem  in  the  present  in- 
quiry, or  whether,  otherwise,  it  is  projter  evidence  for  us  to 
regard.  That,  I  suppose,  is  the  particular  question  upon 
which  you,  Mr.  Dickinson,  take  the  negative  side. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — That  is  the  point  exactly,  your  Honour. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — And  yon 
say  that  not  only  is  it  incompetent  for  the  other  side  to  bring 
forward  affidavits  that  wer«>  made  use  of  by  the  United 
States,  but  that  it  is  also  e()ually  incompetent  to  bring  for- 
ward statements  in  tlu;  T'nited  States  case  as  jtart  of  the  sub- 
se(|uent  case  of  (Jreat  Britain.  That  I  understand  is  your 
contention. 

Air.  Dickinson: — That  is  the  contention 

The  Commissioner  on  tlie  part  of  Her  Majesty: — Your  ob- 
jection, therefore,  applies  both  to  the  statement  of  the  case 
that  has  been  read,  and  also  to  the  affidavit? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Y(?s.  it  does,  your  H(mour.  I  beg  to  point 
out  (hat  we  are  now  in  the  sealing  country,  the  source  from 
which  both  sides  of  (he  case,  as  jiresented  to  the  Paris  Tri- 
bunal, was  drawn.  Here  in  Victoria  are  the  witnesses.  Here 
is  the  source  of  information  on  this  very  point,  and  here  this 
Tiibnnal  has  been  asked  to  sit.  This  case  is  sent  to  this 
Tribunal,  sitting  at  (he  source  of  this  information,  in  order 
(hat  we  nuiy  list(>n  to  the  oral  testimony  of  the  men  who  are 
jHMfectly  familiar  with  the  sealing  industry  and  with  the 
liehring  Sea.  Should  we  not  get  our  information  directly 
lu>re,  and  should  not  the  evidence  be  taken  here? 

Mr.  Peters: — My  fi-iend  is  a  little  in  error  as  to  where  these 
statenuMit.-!  were  made.  The  witness  whose  affidavit  I  wits 
about  to  i-ead  from,  is  not  at  Paris,  nor  in  Victoria,  but  he  re- 
sides at  Seattle,  as  1  understand.  He  was  sworn  at  Seattle 
before  Notary  D.  A.  JilcKenzi*'.  which  does  no(  sound  like  a 
very  Parisian  name.  My  learned  friend  now  tells  us  that 
all  tli(>  evidence  is  to  be  got  fnmi  Victoria,  but  the  other  day 
he  (old  us  (hat  all  the  evidence  was  to  be  got  at  San  Fmn- 
cisco,  and  he  asked  us  to  go  then'  to  hear  jtractically  the 
wli()i(  of  his  case.  The  t'nited  Slates  used  this  affidavit  for 
one  jmrpose,  and  we  hav(>  a  perfect  right  to  use  it  for  an- 
other. If  there  was'  anything  wrong  in  that  affidavit,  or  if 
it  was  ini(  in  in  error,  my  friend  has  only  to  point  that  out 
and  (here  will  be  every  oppor(uni(y  (o  amend  it.  My  learned 
friend  says  thai  they  will  not  be  bound  by  these  affidavits. 
1  do  no(  for  a  moment  contend  that  the  T'nited  States  Oov- 
ermnent  is  absolutely  bound  by  every  one  of  these  affidavits. 
Tliey  can  jtoint  out  that  it  was  made  under  n  misapi»reliensi<m 
of  facts,  and  the  mislake  can  be  renu'dieil.  I  do  not  object  to 
tlieir  saying  that  (hat  affidavK  is  no(  correct,  alth.mgh  they 
jiul  i(  in  (heir  case.      I  do  not  (hink  (hey  will  say  so,  bn(,  if 


1)  !i 


Ul 


''■' 

;:llii!i 


'"'f« 


iii' 


:'  ; 


m 


■•  iln 

m 


tj'j' 

!  j 

»U»f|t!} 


30 


Miicli  }|  thill},'  Hhoiiltl  liiii»p('ii.  llicic  is  jiin|il('    opportiiiiil  v  to 
ottVr  nil  cxjtliuiiition  i)f  it. 

Tlu'  Coininissioiicr  on  (lie  jiiiit  of  llic  liiitcd  Slalcs: — .Mr. 
rctrrs,  vou  liiivv  sonic  other  evidence  iK'nidt'N  these  nttidavits, 
iiave  you  not? 

Mr.  Peters: — Certjiinlv.  vonr  Hnnoni-.  Tliis  evidence  tonrlies 
not  onl.v  tlie  oitiliinfi  of  seal  by  Kiij?lisli  vessels,  but  also  by 
Ainerieaii  vessels. 
10 

The  Coniinissioner  on  the  part  of  the  Fiiiled  S(atet;. — Have 
you  any  other  evidence  that  you  could  take  up  in  the  nioni- 
iiifi,  leaving  tiiis  (|uestion  in  abeyan<('? 

Mr.  I'eteis: — Yes,  your  Honour,  but  it  would  be  very  in- 
convenient for  me  until  I  read  those  extracts,  which  are  very 
short. 

The  roinniissioner  on  the  ]iart  of  ITer  Majesty: — .\s  to  the 
answer  by  the  .\inerican  to  the  British  (ioveiimient,  there  has 
20  been  no  serious  objection  taken  to  if,  and  we  think  it  admis- 
sible. As  to  the  aflidavit  it  is  not  so  <lear,  and  if  i(  could 
stand  for  a  while,  until  we  <an  look  a  little  more  into  it,  it 
would  perhaps  be  better.  That  is  the  reason  why  my  learned 
colleaftue  asked  if  we  could  <<;o  on  with  soiiK'thinj  '■^e  in  the 
morninji. 

Mr.  IVters: — If  the  matter  is  under  the  consideration  of 
your  Honours,  I  would  like  it  to  be  fully  understood  that  thi' 
very  (luestion.  as  to  how  f'ai'  this  is  admissible,  may  be  pos- 
sibly a  ((uestion  that  would  stand  over  for  argument  at  the 
end,  the  same  as  with  reuard  to  other  (juestions. 

The  ("ommissiuiier  lui  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — That  would 
be  very  well,  if  one  could  know  the  scope  of  the  evidence  in 
((uestion.  If  is  likely  that  there  will  be  a  jii'eat  mass  of  such 
testimony. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  can  assure  you  that  this  is  the  last  jiiece  of 
such  evidence  we  propose  to  j^ive  in  this  case.  It  is  confined 
to  a  few  short  extracts,  and  especially  with  refjard  to  the 
40  evidence  of  a  Captain  Sheppard,  a  witness  whom  we  cannot 
H»'t.  If  your  Honours  read  it,  I  am  satisfied  you  will  see 
that  it  affords  an  excellent  introduction  to  the  oral  evidence 
which  will  be  hen-after  niven  on  the  same  jioinl.  It  inaki's 
it  more  comjjlete,  and  will  show  moie  dearly  the  way  in 
which  it  was  used  by  the  .Vmerican  (iovernmenl.  I  am 
quite  sure  my  l"arned  fiieiid,  Mr.  Dickinson,  will  not  refer  to 
the  case  of  (ireat  Hiitain  to  show  that  there  are  noi  seals  in 
the  ISehriu}!  Sea,  because  both  sides  have  agreed  upon  that. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  have  already  indicated  to  your  dislin- 
fjuished  colleaf-ue  that  I  minht  put  in  the  supplemciilaiy  ar- 
jjuinent  of  the  IJrilish  case  in  ivhole  to  answer  one  dejiosition 
you  read  fi'oiu.  1  do  not  know  why  this  matter  should  be 
referred  to  at  all. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  Ciiited  States: — So 
far  as  the  extracts  from  the  Inited  States  are  con- 
cerned, and  wlii<-h  Mi-.  Peters  I'ead,  we  ajjree  that 
counsel  for  the  Hritish  (Jovernment  has  a  rifjht  to  jtut  them 
Qo  ill.  Of  course  counsel  for  the  I'liiled  Stales  has  a  riffht  in 
read  other  parts  of  the  answer  whicli  may  (lualify  them. 
That  is  a  Icffal  rinht  which  we  cannot  deprive  tln'm  of.  I?ut 
with  I'ejjard  to  the  altidavits,  that  is  another  cpiestion,  and 
we  would  be  ylad  to  have  yon  }«(»  on  witli  some  other  evi- 
dence in  the  morninif. 


Mr.  Peters: — I  mifiht  jjive  you  an  idea  of  what  we  would 


(]Uot( 


251 


Tilt'  r<»inniiHsi(»n«'i'  on  flic  pail  of  (lie  rnilcd  StntcH: — If 
vdii  could  i;iv<'  iih  iiit  idi-a  of  wluit  tlit*  i'liitt'd  Stales  would 
]>nt  in  in  n'pl.v.  il  wtnild  lie  nioi-(>  satisfartorv. 

Mr.  I'cteis: — I  am  (piitc  salisficd  inv  learned  friend  will 
not  atleni])!  to  aiiswei'  the  ]ioint  I  am  about  to  make  because 
it  is  admitted  on  both  sides.  It  has  been  (tnt  in  proof  b,v 
ullidavits  jiiesented  by  themselves.  The  case  tf  the  I'nited 
Slates  w.'is  founded  on  these  anida\its  and  th(>  conclusions  at 
which  they  ariived  wei'e  pi'aclically  based  on  them  These 
'^  allidavits  .ire  the  pioof  that  weic  jiut  in  in  support  of  their 
case.  I  do  not  see  that  there  is  any  ditVefence  or  that  there 
should  be  any  objection  to  ]iiiltin;;  in  allidavits  upon  which 
the  case  of  the  I'nited  States  was  founded,  when  we  are  al- 
lowed to  put  in  extracts  frtim  the  case  itself. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  Inited  States: — Su])- 
pose  I  apply  for  an  injunction  and  file  a  lot  of  allidavits  on 
wliich  to  base  my  injunction,  conld  these  attidavits  be  used  in 
a  subs<-(iuent  suit. 

-•^       Mr.  I'eters: — Yes.  if  the  subsequent  suit  arose  in  the  same 
matter. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  parr  of  the  I'nited  States: — The 
witnesses  bein;;  still  alive  and  within  reach? 

Mr.  I'eters: — Yes,  I  think  so. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'liited  States: — I  do 
not  jiut  this  in  any  technical  way,  but  merely  as  an  illiistra- 
,„    lion?      Of  course  we  are  jii-oceediii};  on    somewhat    broader 
jjidunds  here  than  in  ordinary  suits  of  common  law. 

Mr.  Peters: — Yes,  even  in  common  law,  if  there  was  a  con- 
Icntion  in  the  same  matter.  An  injuixtion  (use  is  a  }^ood  il- 
hisliation.  It  comes  befoi'e  court  for  interlocutory  injunc- 
tion, and  certain  attidavits  ate  tised,  and  afterwards  that  case 
^oes  <ui  further  and  it  is  tried,  and  the  tpiestion  comes  ii]i  on 
(rial.  Surely  the  evidem c  that  one. party  used  and  adopted 
on  tli(>  tirst  a]iplication  may  be  us«>d     a}<;ainst     him     subse- 

nuentlv. 

40 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — That 
i.s  rather  .'i  novel  )iroposition  tg  me,  I  must  say. 

.Mr.  I'eters;— It  is  not  often  a  (piestion  of  the  kind  arises 
and  I  would  point  out  to  your  Honours  that  it  is  not  often 
that  you  have  a  le^al  matter  left  to  such  a  late  day  as  has 
been  in  the  case  of  these  claim.s.  These  tliinns  occuri'ed  ten 
years  afro.  The  witncssr'  are  out  of  reach.  I  cannot  ffet 
this  man  whose  allidavit  I  jirojiose  to  read.  He  do(>s  nor 
50  iippciir  to  be  a  citizen  of  this  country  at  all,  but  of  the 
Inited  States.  I  could  not  m-t  him  if  I  wanted  to,  and  in 
>ayinj;  this  I  do  noJ  wish  yu\\v  Ihinour  to  infer  tliat  I  have 
tried  to  jjet  him.  He  is  practically  out  of  our  nacli,  and  he 
is  out  of  the  reach  of  this  Commissi<in  unless  you  (jo  t«i  San 
Francisco.  / 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of    the    Cnited    Staten: — I 
come  back  a.nain  to  the  simple  (pieslion,  Mr.  I'eters,     as  to 
wliellier  you  will  be  able  to  olTer  any  other  evidence  in  the 
rio  morninff. 

.Mr.  I'eters  ;— Yes,  we  will. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  piirt  of  the  Tnited  Stales: — \Ve 
may  not  be  jirepared  to  rule  upon  this  ipiestion  in  the  morn- 
iiifi'. 

The  Commission  tlien  rose. 


i^iiiiiiiiiin 


rfU! 


I' 


ir;  i:..|i 


rii! 


iii. 


I:; 


j^ 


li ,,  ^i^ 


252 

Oommissioners  under  the  Convention  of  February  8,  1896,  between 
Great  Britain  and  the  United  States  of  America 

Chambers  of  the  Legislative  Assembly, 

At  Victoria,  December  8, 1896- 

At  10:30  a.m.  tlio  C'omniissioners  took  their  seats. 

The  romiiiissioner  on  the  jmrt  of  the  I'nitetl    States: — Mr. 
Peters,  have  yon  yet  lieard  about  (Muiiii  5,  where  there  was 
'O  a  motion  to  dismiss,  and  the  matter  was  hiid  <»ver? 

Mr.  I'eters: — Yes,  I  commnnicated  by  telejjraph  directly 
with  Hir  Julian  I'auncefote.  and  I  have  received  an  answer  to 
that  which  1  have  also  communicated  to  my  leanu'd  friend, 
who  I  think  will  ajjree  with  me  in  not  pushinfj;  that  matter 
jnst  at  present. 

The  t'ommissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majestv: — Is  that  the 
"Say  ward"? 

20       Mr.  Peters:— I  was  referring  to  the  "Ada"  and  "Black  Dia- 
mond." 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  T'nited  States: — The 
Commissioners  will  {;ive  it  no  attenti<m  until  they  hear  from 
counsel.      Do  I  understand  it  correctly? 

Mr.  I'eters: — I  telefjraphed  to  Sir  Julian  I'auncefote  and  re- 
ceived back  an  answer,  which  answer  I  communicated  to  Mr. 
Dickinson,  and  Mr.  Dickinson,  as  I  understand,  is  awaitinfj; 
also  to  hear  from  his  fiovernment.  and  I  think  it  would  be 
3°  hifjhly  advisable  that  the  matter  should  stand  unlil  we  see 
wiiether  there  is  really  any  dilf«'rence  of  opinion  between  the 
t  wo  governments. 

The  ('ommissioner  on  the  pai-t  of  the  T'nited  States: — Then 
we  ntH'd  give  no  further  attention  to  it  until  we  luar  from  it 
from  one  side  or  the  other.      Is  that  correct? 

M.".  Peters: — That  is  correct,  your  ITonour. 


40 


■  -  i   ''    / 


I  -If 


50 


60 


William  Tlionias  I$rass  was  called  on  the  part  of  Oreat 
Hritain  and  dulv  sworn: 


Direct  examination  by  Mr. 
Q. — Your  name  is  William 


Podwell. 

T.  Bragg? 
A.— 1  do. 


-Yes. 


mariner,  is  it, 


A. — I  was. 

the    vear     ISSfi? 
Mary  Ellen." 
that  year?      A.— 

-She  did. 


Q. — You  live  in  Victoria? 

Q. — And  your  occui)ation  now  is  a  master 
Mr.  Bragg?      A. — It  is. 

Q. — Were  you  in  this  country  in  18S(J? 

Q. — What  occupation  did  you  follow  in 
A. — I  was  mate  on  the  sealing  schooner  ' 

Q. — Did  she  go  out  on  a  sealing  vovage 
She  did. 

Q. — Did  she  go  into  Behring  Sea?      A. 

Q. — On  what  kind  of  a  voyage  did  slu'  go  to  Belning  Sea? 
A. — A  sealing  voyage. 

Q. — With  how  many  lumters  and  how  many  boats?  A. — 
There  were  five  hunters,  regular  hunters,  and  I  ran  the  stern 
boat  myself,  and  the  deck  hand. 

Q. — Five  hunting  boats  and  the  stern  boat?  A. — And  the 
stern  boat. 

Q. — What  was  the  custom  with  reference  to  hunting  by 
the  stern  boat?  A. — Well.  I  had  tlie  vessel  to  wash  down 
in  the  morning,  skins  to  salt,  and  after  I  got  through  witli 
my  work  I  could  go  out  if  I  felt  like  it;  it  was  not  comjiulsory 
for  me  to  go. 

Q. — And  1  su])i)os('  ;t  would  depend  a  good  deal  011  lln' 
weathei'  and  oilier  different  circumsliiuces  whether  you  did 
go  out?      A.— It  did. 


10 


20 


253 

Q. — Wjih  that  (oiiiHc  piirHiK-d  diii-in^  tlii'  wlioh'  of  tlu'  v<»y- 
iit;*'?  A. — It  wa»  not.  Tli<'  wliolo  of  tln'  Itt'liriii);  H»'a  voy- 
ixiiv  it  was.      Not  tlic  wliol*'  of  tlu'  voyapo. 

iy — I  nm  only  Hpcakiiifj  of  flic  Iteliriiif;  Sea  voya^*';  w«'  an- 
not  intcrt'Htcd  in  any  other  part.  Do  yon  rt't-ognize  that 
book,  Mr.  Hratjp?      A. — (Kxaniininfi)  I  do. 

y. — What  is  it?  A. — It  is  an  aeconnt  book  I  Inive  with 
tjie  catclics  from  day  to  day. 

(I. — How  w»'r«'  till'  linntcrs  paid?      A. — fl.5)0  per  skin. 

Q. — Wlio  kejtt  tlM!  acconnts  of  tlic  skins?  A. — Tlie  cap- 
tain and  mys«'lf. 

ii. — How  did  yon  kot'p  tliat  aeconnt,  speaking  of  your  own 
part  of  it?      A. — I  kept  it  in  a  private  hook. 

Q. — In  that  book  (indicalinp)?    A. — Yes,  in  that  book. 

Q. — Wlien  were  tlie  entries  made?  A. — Well,  as  a  rule, 
I'very  nijjht;  some  times  I  let  it  go  until  the  next  morning 
if  I  was  too  busy  that  night. 

Q. — Where  did  you  get  the  information  from  which  yon 
made  the  entnes  in  this  book?  A. — As  a  rule  I  counted  the 
seals  as  tlu'V  came  over  the  lail.  and  made  the  captain  ac- 
(piainted  with  the  nunib»'r  of  vliem;  and  if  I  was  not  there  he 
counted  them. 

Q. — And  yon  got  the  entry  from  him?  A. — I  got  the  en- 
try from  him. 

Q. — Are  the  entries  her<>  in  your  own  writing?  A. — They 
are. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  suppose  this  testimony  bears  on  the 
probable  catch? 

3°       Mr.  refers:— Yes. 

.Mr.  Dickinson: — Of  course  that  comes  in  under  yotir  ITon- 
durs'  intimation  reserving  that  questi<m  for  further  argu- 
ment, as  I  understand  it. 

Mr.  Dickinson  (To  Mr.  Uodwell) — Do  you  want  to  put  that 
book  in  just  as  it  is? 

Mr.  Hodwell : — I  would  like  to  put  the  book  in,  but  for  the 
convenience  of  the  (Commissioners  I  i)ropose  to  make  an  ab- 
40  stract  of  the  parts  nuiterial  to  the  case. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  tlu'  United  States: — Why 
<](»  yon  not  let  the  witness  take  it,  and  refresh  his  memory 
from  it? 

Mr.  Hodwell: — For  this  reason,  you  Flononr;  for  the  con- 
venience of  argtiment,  and  I  think  for  the  convenience  of  the 
Commissioners,  I  want  to  nuike  a  short  abstract  of  the  parts 
which  are  nmteiial. 

50  The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Then 
why  do  yon  not  put  in  the  abstract,  and  submit  it  to  counsel 
on  the  other  side? 

Mr.  lh)dwell: — If  your  Honours  think  it  would  be  a  better 
course.  I  can  do  that. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — It 
seems  to  me  very  desirable  that  both  Commissioners  and 
counsel  should  take  all  jtossible  means  to  prevent  the  Com- 
mission from  being  loaded  with  documents  and  ])ai»ers  be- 
cause these  documents  and  papi  rs  have  got  to  be  transported 
wherever  the  Commission  gctes,  and  both  counsel  cannot  have 
llicm.  For  example,  supjiose  both  counsel  are  preparing  ar- 
guments simultaneously;  they  cannot  have  these  documents 
and  papers  unless  we  all  remain  here. 

^Ir.  Itodwell: — My  object  was  not  to  encumber  the  notes 
with  all  the  details.  That  i  would  like  to  have  in  evidence 
for  the  purjiose  of  use  afterwards.      I  thought  I  would  prove 


'lO 


■  ,:,: 


!  i 


■fi';iijiiijl  1 

i  !!  ! 


!54 


'«fMi  :      ; 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


tlic  IkioU,  |iii(   it   ill  f\ iilt'iirt',  tin*!  tlit'ii  iiialvf  an  iilmli'.iif  of 

lilf  pJli'tH  we  (Ifsil'C  III  IIHI'. 

Till'  CoiiiniisHioni'r  (in  the  |iiii't  of  (lif  riiid'il  HIaicH:— 
Would  it  not  lie  tin*  niiiHt  ((invcniint  wa.v  to  nialic  an  ah- 
Mtrait,  Hiiliniit  it  to  (lit-  ciinnHfl  fur  llii'  Cnitcil  Ktalt'H,  and 
tlicn  let  tilt'  almliait  j^ii  in  cvidcncf  iiist<'!id  of  tin-  bonlv?  I 
only  iiiaki'  tli<>  su^p'stion;  of  course  coiinml  Iviiow  bi-lti'i'  tliau 
till'  ConiniiMHioncrs  what  tln',v  ii'iinirc. 

The  roinniisHioncr  on  tlic  jiart  of  H«'r  Majcst.v: — Tlic  rctiii- 
lar  course  would  be  to  use  siicli  a  book  iih  that  for  the  piii'- 
]>ose  of  examining;  the  witness  orall.v,  and  re^iilaiiy  it  would 
not  be  the  subject  of  evidence  itself. 

Mr.  Hodwell: — I  iiroiiose  now  to  show  the  witness  tlie  book 
to  aid  his  recollection.  .M.v  friend  the  other  da.v,  with  ref- 
erence to  another  book  of  this  kind,  which  I  tendered, 
thought  the  book  ou;;ht  to  pi  in.  It  was  a  case  where  we 
w«'re  e.xaniiniHK  Mi",  lainj;. 

Q. — Will  you  look  at  the  book,  .Mr.  l?ragji,  and  say  what 
day  your  shiji  entered  ISeliriiiK  Wea,  or  rather,  what  was  the 
tirst  day  on  which  you  took  any  seals  in  Itehriii);  Sea?  A. — 
(Exaniininf;)  We  entered  Helirinp;  Sea  the  2rith  of  June,  ISSti. 
The  tIrst  day  we  linnted  was  the  l!Stli  of  ,Iune,  ISSC. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — In  IJehiin;;  Sea,  I  siipiiose?  A.— In 
Itt'hriufj  Sea,  y<'s,  sir. 

Q. — SVhat  was  the  name  of  the  lirst  hunter  whose  account 
you  kept?  A. — John  Jacobson  was  supposed  to  be  the  heail 
hunter. 

(i. — Did  he  hunt  anv  in  the  month  of  Juno  in  ISehrinf?  Sea? 
A.— He  did. 

(i. — Ilow  many  days  in  -lune  did  he  hunt  in  Itehrinij;  Sea? 
\. — Two  days. 

(i. — How  many  seals?       A. — 12. 

(.1. — Did  that  same  hunter  take  anv  seals  in  the  month  «if 
July?      A.— He  did. 

Q. — Were  there  any  days  in  the  iiionth  of  July  in  which  he 
did  not  hunt  at  all?      A.— There  was. 

Q. — How  many?  Perhaps  you  will  jjive  us  the  days  on 
which  he  did  not  hunt?  A. — Tlu>  first  of  July  he  fjot  three. 
The  s«'cond,  three. 

ii. — What  I  wanted  you  to  do  first  was  to  look  throufjh 
that  list  and  see  the  days  on  which  he  did  not  hunt  at  all;  I 
think  that  will  be  the  shortest  way  to  jiiit  it  in.  A. — The 
4tli  of  July,  not  huntintj;  the  .5th  of  .luly,  not  hiintiu}!;;  tin? 
7th  of  July,  ditto;  the  !»lli.  ditto;  the  lOtl'i,  ditto;  littli,  ditto; 
2:{rd,  ditto;  Uflh,  ditto;  27fh  ditto. 

ii. — Were  tliere  any  days  on  whicli  he  hunted  part  <if  the 
day  and  not  the  whole  day?       A. — There  was. 

Q. — What  were  they  nive  the  dates.  A. — '.UW  of  July, 
hunted  two  hours;  the  lllli,  half  a  day;  on  the  2lltli  he  shot 
one  from  the  schooner;  on  the  24lli,  half  a  day;  2<>tli,  two 
hours.       That  is  all  Jacobson  linnted. 

il. — On  tlie  other  davs  of  the  inontli  di<l  he  hunt  all  day? 
A.— He  did. 

Q. — What  was  his  total  catch  for  the  month  of  ,Iulv?  A. — 

'2m. 

{}. — Did  the  same  hunter  hunt  in  the  month  of  Au^just? 
A.— He  did. 

(}. — Will  you  look  at  your  books  and  say  what  days  in  th<! 
month  of  Aujiust  he  did  not  hunt?  A. — ."ith  of  August,  lu! 
was  not  huntinji,  but  he  shot  one  from  the  scnooner;  the  (ith, 
not  hunting;  12tli,  not  hunting;  l.'Uli,  ditto;  14tli,  ditto;  Kith, 
ditto  17tli.  ditto;  istli,  ditto;  22nd,  ditto;  2(itli.  ditto;  2Sth 
ditto;  went  after  a  sleejier  on  (he  2!Hh  from  his  vessel. 

(J. — Are  there  any  days  on  wliiili  he  hunted  a  part  of  the 
day  and  not  the  whole  dav  in  that  month?       Will  you  just 


■:i 


4 


!5: 


fiivciiM  tln' (liivH  oil  wliirli  Im>  Iniiili'd  )i  imit  of  llicdiiv?  A. — • 
lltli  of  .\iip;iiNl.  Iinnlftl  litilf  n  dtiv;  lolli  of  Au^iiNt,  linlf  a 
iliiv;  well  llicn-  nii^Iil  have  Ikm-ii  six  Iiouih  iiikI  llu'it*  iiiIkIiI 
lijivc  Ik'I'Ii  t'i^'lit  lioiii's. 

(2, —  Itiil  voii  tiilU'd  il  a  half  a  tlav  in  .voiir  hook?  A. — 
>°('M.  pti  aboard  Ixforc  11*  o'tioik.  2lHt  liiiiilcd  lialf  a  da,v; 
Jtlii,  lialf  a  da,\ ;  one  from  flu-  Hi-liooiicr  on  tlu*  L'Tlli. 

il. — What   was  liin  Itital  <al(h  for  llic  nioiitli  of  Anj^iiHl? 

\.~--i-iy\. 

I  "J       Q.— Take  \\w  next  Ininlcr.  Mr.  Mra^x 

The  ('oniniiKHionrr  on  (lie  pait  of  llcr  Majcstv: — IN-rliapN 
y  II  nii^'lit  ask  what  it  would  b<-  that  would  lead  to  his  hunt- 
ing and  not  linntin^? 

The  witness: — Tlu'  wcatlitT. 

t^, — What  was  tin*  name  of  vour  second  hunter?  A — 1'.  A. 
l>erri«'s. 


(i.— IHd  he  hunt  in  the  month  of  Jim.?      A.— lie  did. 


JO 


(i.-  In  Mehrinn  Sea' 


-lie  did 


(2.— How  many  da.vs?  A.— Hi-  hunted  the  liSth  and  the 
;!(lth. 

<^ — How  many  seals  did  he  rateh  in  the  month  nf  June? 
\. — Ki^jlit  seals. 

(2.— Did  he  hunt  in  the  month  of  Julv?      A.— He  did. 

(^ — Now  tell  us  jiisl  the  niiuilier  of  days  on  wliirli  he  did 
not  hunt  aii<l  the  nuiiiher  of  days  on  wliirli  lie  did  hunt  a 
part  of  a  day,  and  the  total  cateli  in  that  inontli? 
A. — 1th  of  .luly,  not  huntiiif;;  .'ttli.  ditttt;  7tli,  ditto;  itth,  dit- 
to; mth.  ditto;  Mtth.  ditto;  I'Otli,  ditto. 

(}. — Do  von  tind  a  leaf  torn  from  the  hook  there?  A. — I 
(1.1. 


(I. — Von  have  not  the  recoid  from  the  ittli.  It  is  torn  out 

of  the  hook  from  the  !>th  to  the  L'Sth,  isn't  it?  A.— Fnuii  the 
•_'lst  to  the  2Sth. 

(i. — So  y(Mi  cannot  state  those  interv.  iiiii}^  dates?  .\. — I 
cannot. 

t^. — .\ie  there  any  dates  after  the  lisih  in  which  you  did 
not  hunt?       .\.— Tliere  are. 


40 


ti.— State  lliem? 


■The  ;{l.st. 


(I. — .\fter  looking  at  that  pajte,  can  yon  tell  me  wlii.i   his 
total  catch  for  .liilv  was?      A. —  1  can. 


(2.— What  was  it: 


A.-l»4fi 


(I. — Did  the  same  hunter  hunt  in  the  month  of  Au};ust? 
A.— He  did. 

(I. — Were  (here  any  days  on  which  he  did  not  hunt  in  the 
iiioiith  of  .\iimist?      A. — There  were. 

(I. — State  them?  .\. — .">th  of  .\uj;ust,  not  hunting;;  fith. 
ditto;  |-Jth.  ditto;  i:{th.  ditto;  lllli.  ditto;  Kith,  ditto;  17th, 
50  "litto;  IStli.  ditto;  L'l'iid.  ditto;  IMtli.  ditto;  I'tltli,  ditto;  l-'Tth, 
litto;  •JSili.  ditto;  lillth.  ditto. 

C^ — Any  days  on  wliicli  he  hunted  parts  of  days    in     t-hat 


IlKUlth'i 


A. — There  were. 


(,o 


Q.— Wliat  were  tliev?  A.— lltli  of  August,  hunted  half  u 
day;  IT.th,  half  a  day;  24th.  half  a  day. 

it — What  was  his  total  catch  for  the  immth  of  August? 
A.— 17.-). 

(2. — t'an  you  jjive  any  ex|ilanation  of  his  not  huntiufr  after 
I  see  you  };i\e  four  days  there  on  which  he  did 


th: 


'>lh 


not  hunt?      A. — I  think  the  hist  dav  we  hunted  in  the  sea  was 
the  24th. 

(i. — That  is  your  recollection?  \. — To  the  hest  of  my  re- 
collection I  think  the  24th  was  the  last  day  we  hunted,  hut 
We  reniaim-d  thei'e  for  a  few  <!ays  afterwards. 

ti- — <"an  you  fjive  us  any  r"ason  for  that?  A. — Well,  the 
wind  wasn't  favor.ihle  and  the  captain  wanted  to  remain  an 
I«u)h;  as  possible. 


Um 


I  m 


'   pr. 


•f'^^m^ 


'jittUM 


;      I 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


»S6 

t-l. — Tiik«?  (he  iH'Xt  liiiiilfi',  wlmt  wii**  IiIh  nnnii-?      A. — .Iti- 
liiin. 
ii. — lit'  wiiH  a  Spaniard?      A. — A  Mt'xinin. 
(j.— l»i*l  he  liiiiit  in  tli)>  niontli  (if  .luiic?       A.— Il<-  did. 


H. —  How  tnany  davn? 
ti. -II<»w  nian.v  seals? 
(j.— Did  Iw  liii'nt  in  t1u> 


not  liiintiii);; 
l':{nl,    ditto; 


A.— Two. 

A. — Hcvtn  HcalH  in  tlu'  two  days, 
inimili  of  .July?      A.— He  did. 

ii. — Wliat  davH  in  tin*  niontli  of  .Innc  did  li<>  Iiunl?  A. — 
liHtli  and  :m\\    ' 

10       Q. — Htatc  llic  da.vH  in  •hily  on  wliicli  he  did  not  iinni?      Ito 
yon  find  a  leaf  torn  out  of  yonr  l»ool<  tiu'ic?      A. — I  do. 

(j. — Ih  tliat  a  part  of  tlic  rcrord  of  .Iniian's  liunlinK  that  \a 
torn''      A.— It  is. 

Q.--Ho\v  ni;mv  dayH?      .\. —  riic  "tli  is  licr*'. 

<2.--Tc!l  lis  tliin  afti-i-  tlu"  7tli?  .\.--Tli«'  7Hi 
!Mli.  ditto;  KItii,  ditto;  liltli.  ditto;  litttli,  ditto; 
JTtli.  ditto. 

Q. — Any  days  on  wliicli  Uv  lumtcd  a  pa  it  of  tlic  day  ho  far 
aw  tliat  record  ^oeH?      A. — Tliere  were. 

Q.— State  fiieni?  A.— lltli,  iiunted  lialf  a  day;  LMtli.  lialf 
a  di'.y. 

(2. — On  tile  remaining  days  lie  liniited,  I  understand?  Witli 
reference  to  all  these  hunters  tlie  days  wliicli  you  do  not 
specify  as  not  hunting;,  or  as  liuiitin;;  a  i»art  (»f  the  day.  tliey 
were  out  all  day.  tliey  iiiinted  all  day?  A. — Well,  they  inifiht 
have  been  out  all  day,  some  of  them,  and  they  niifiht  not,  I 
did  not  ke«'p  the  hours  tliey  were  out. 

ii. — You  called  it  a  day?      A. — I  called  it  a  day. 

(i. — That  api)lies  generally  to  all  the  hunters  yon  are 
speakin}>;  of  in  vour  evidence.  What  was  his  catch  for  the 
month  of  July?      A.— Kdti. 

Q. — Take  tiie  month  of  Anpist,  Mr.  Mratrit?  A. — .Julian, 
the  month  of  August,  not  huntintj:  tin.'  (ith;  IL'th,  ditto;  VMh, 
ditto:  14th,  ditto;  Kith,  ditto;  ITtli,  ditto;  IStli,  ditto;  25tli, 
ditto;  2(itli,  ditto;  27tli,  ditto;  2stli.  ditto;  iMttli,  ditto. 

Q.— Any  half  days  in  that?  A.— There  are.  On  the  5tli  he 
){ot  two  from  the  schooner;  ir>tli,  half  a  day;  21st,  a  half  u 
day;  -4tli.  a  lialf  a  day. 

(i.— Total  for  the  niontli  of  August?      A.— 2:U. 

Q. — Take  ,\()ur  next  hunter,  what  is  his  name?  \. — Lor- 
■nzo. 

Q.— Take  the  month  of  June  tirst?  A.— 2Sth  is  the  tlrst 
day  Lorenzo  hunted,  and  the  :{((tli. 

ii. — How  many  seals  did  lie  )j;i't?      A. — 1. 

Mr.  Peti'i's: — If  the  <'oniniissi(Uiers  please,  I  have  a  witness 
here  who  will  be  very  short — Mr  Thomas.  He  has  just  come 
from  the  hospital,  and,  if  it  would  not  inconvenience  the 
Court,  I  would  like?  to  examine  him  and  let  him  f^o,  interrupt- 
iiiy  this  witness. 

Tile  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — Vcrhajis 
you  had  better  finish  this  statement  with  regard  to  this  man. 

ii. — The  month  of  .Inly,  state  the  days  on  which  he  did  not 
hunt.     Did  he  hunt  in  the  month  of  July?     A. — He  did. 

Q. — State  the  days  on  which  he  was  not  out?  A. — 4tli  not 
hiintin};,  .f)th  ditto, "itli  ditto,  iltli  ditto,  Kith  ditto,  Kttli  ditto, 
L'dlh  ditto,  2.'{id  ditto,  27tli  ditto. 

(i.— Did  he  hunt  <m  the  L'tltli?     A.— 2<!tli  he  hunted. 

Q.— Any  half  days?  A.— He  did.  The  ;{rd  of  July  two 
hours. 

'"  (i.— Look  at  the  llth?     A.— The  lltli  hunted  half  a  dav. 
L'4thhalf  a  day. 

Q.— Is  anything  on  the  2fitli?    A.— 2(>tli  half  a  day. 

il. — What  was  his  total  catch  for  the  month  of  Julv?  A. — 
220, 


ID 


«57 

(j. — Tiikc  (Im'  iiioiidi  (if  AtiKMst?  A. -.'Ill  mil  Iniiiliti^'  t;ili 
ilillo,  I21I1  <nil<i.  i:tlli  tlilli).  Uth  tlillo.  Kilh  «litt(i,  ITlh 
tlitlii,  pit  line  fniiii  lli*>  scliooiifi'  <iii  lli<>  IHlli,  L'U'iitl  not  liiiiit- 
iii;;.  ^'ilh  tlillu.  LMilli  ditto,  -JTlli  dittii,  L'Mtli  ditto. 

Q. — An,v  liiilf  dii.VK?      A. — Tlu're  nre. 

(2.— Htiilc  tliciii  plciisc?  A.— Till-  Iftli  liiilf  ^  dii.v,  I'ltii  liiiir 
II  (Illy.  -Mst  liiilf  a  (liiy.  :J4tli  ditto. 

(^ — How  iiiiiiiv  hi'siIh  (lid  lie  p-t  oil  tliiil  liiilf  (liiv,  the  2lHt? 
A.— 11. 

(i.— Wliiit  wiiH  liiN  total  catcli  for  that  month?     .\.  — 171>. 

iy — Wliat  was  IiIh  licwt  day,  can  you  tell  tluTc  witliuiit 
iiiiicii  botlici?     A.— The  IJttli. 

Q.— How  many  did  he  net?     A.— .SS. 

Kxamiiiatiou  of  wIIui'hh  HnHpcndcd. 


Owen   TliomaB  called  on   the   |iart   of  Great   Itritain,  and 
2"  Hworn: 

IHitct  examination  by  Mr.  I'etei'M. 

Mr.  Thomas,  yon  live  in  Victoria?     A. — Ych,  sir. 

(■i. — And  do  you  rememb(>r  the  schooner  '•Carolena"?     A. 
I  do,  sir. 

(ij. —  In  \HX(i  were  yon  on  the  schooner  "Carolena"?     A. — 
^'('s,  sir. 

(i.— As  a  jiilot.  or  somethiiif;  of  that  sort?     A. — Yes,  sir. 
30       Q. — Where  did  you  no  on  her?    A. — Went  to  New  Chate- 
let  (Ksperanza  Inlet)  Hometime  about  the  middle  of  February. 

(.i. — What  did  you  jjo  there  for?     A. — For  n  crew  of  Indians 
for  Kehriii^  set. 

iy — Did  you  net  the  Indians?     A. — No,  sir. 

Cy — Did  you  take  some  siiiiiilies  down  there?       A. — Yes. 

iy — What  were  you  noin^  to  do  with  the  HUiiplies?     A. — 
(ioiiin  to  feed  the  Indians. 

iy — To  keep  the  Indians?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

(.y — Was  it  your  iiit(>iition  to  land  the  supiilies?     A. — Yes. 

40       Q. — After  you  found  out  that  the  Indians  wouldn't  come, 

what  did  you  do  with  the  su|i|ilies?     A. — Took  them  aboard. 

(.y — Did  voii,  or  did  vou  not,  leave  anv  siiiiplies  there?     A. 
—No. 

Q.— You  not  no  Indians?      A. — No  Indians;  they  wouldn't 

Q. — How  loiin  were  you  at  this  place?     A. — tiiiite  a  long 
tiiue  there. 

iy — What  were  y.iii  doiiin  there  all  the  time?     A. — The  ves- 
sel laid  there,  an<i  we  trie(i  to  coax  tliem  to  >^o. 
50       (i.— And  you  failed?     A.— Failed,  yes. 

iy — And  then  you  went  where?     A. — Victoria. 

(^— Direct?     A.— Direct,  sir. 

iy — Stojiped  at  no  other  place?     A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  leave  the  vessel  at  Victoria?     A. — I  did. 

Q- — You  had  nothing  more  to  do  with  her?     A. — Nothing 
iiKire  to  do  with  her. 

The   ('omiiiis.si(uier    on    the    piirt    of    llie  I'nited  States: — 
When  was  it  that  he  not  back? 

.Mr.  IVters:— He  slated  that  he  went  in  the  middle  of  Feb 
niary. 

Witness: — About  that  time. 

iy — .\ii(l  came  back  to  Victoria,  where  vou  left  the  ship? 
A.— Left  tlieshiii. 

Crossexurainathin  by  Mr.  Dickinson: 
17. 


1)0 


ill 


!;! 


iiilti 


i! 


■;-:i.:rj , 

■.!!.■; 


'. 


■  ! -N   ; 
'i  ^  m  l  i  I 

I  i  1        S  I 


!5« 


'flM 


III 


(i. — W'.is  Ciiptiiiii  Ofjilvic  ;ib<)iir(l?     A.— lie  was  iilMiaid  bL'- 
I'oi't'  I  weld  aboard  of  her. 
(i.— Was  he  aboard  wlu'u  .von  went  up  to  (Miati'let?    A. — 

()    Vl'8. 

Q. — H»>  was  llii'ii  on  tlic  sliiji?    A. — ()  vcs. 

Q. — What  wcri'  voui-  duties  on  board?  A. — rilutiu}?  in  the 
lii'st  ]>hi('u. 

Q. — Had  you  been  on  the  boat  befoi'e  uji  there?     A. — ()  yes, 
I  was  in  another  lioat  there. 
lO       Q. — Hut  on  tile  "Carohna"?     A. — \o.  sir. 

Q. — Never  had  been  uji  tliere  before?  A. — Not  on  the 
"Carolena." 

(i. — Did  Jlr.  Munsie  have  a  tradinj;  poat  there?  A. — O,  ho 
didn't  liave  no  trading  post. 

g.— At  Chateh't?     A.— No. 

IJ — W'liere  did  you  laud  these  thiufis?  A. — There  was  a 
little  shed  there. 

Q.— JIow    larf;e  a  shed?     A. — O.  I  can't  remember. 

Q.— What     did     von  put  into  that  shed?     A.— This  slutf, 
20  that's  all. 

(i. — IMd  you  land  it,  or  was  it  landed  under  Captain  Ogil- 
vie's  direction?     A. — W<'11,  I  have  for<;ot  now. 

Q. — You  were  only  thei-e  as  jiilot?     A. — Mostly. 

Q. — Vou  only  had  to  do  with  it  as  pilot?  A. — I  helped 
them  to  fjet  the  Indians  to  <jo  if  I  could. 

(i. — Did  you  have  anytliiu},'  to  do  with  the  landing  of  the 
(ioods,  or  did  Cajitain  ()};ilvie  su])erintend  that?  A. — I  forjiet 
all  these  things,  my  head  is  bothered  a  little  now. 

(•i- — Did  you  have  auythinj;;  to  do  with  putting  them  back 
30   oil  the  "t'arolena,"  or  did  Captain  Ogilvie  attend  to  that?    A, 
I  helped.  I  sujijiose. 

Q.— Who  was  in  charge  of  this  shed  wlwre  vou  put  them? 
A.— The  old  chief. 

Q. — Was  there  any  white  man  there?     A. — Xo. 

Q. — No  one  but  a  chief?     A. — Xo. 

Q. — Any  place  to  lock  ii]>  the  goods  there  in  the  shed?  A. 
—Yes. 

(i- — It   locked  up  did  it  I     Were  there  any  other  goods  in 
there?      Did  you  go  inside  of  the  shed  yourself?     A. — V,\'\\t 
'^      inside,  T  snpjiose 

Q. — Do  you  renieiuber  whether  yon  did  or  not?  A. — Well, 
yes,  I  went  in  with  the  stuff  I  sujipose. 

Q- — Were  there  any  other  goods  there  before  those  were 
taken  off  the  "Carolena"?     A.— I  couldn't  tell  yon  that  now. 

(i.— Can  you  tell  me  as  to  the  size  of  that  shed?     A.— Xo. 

i-i. — Do  you  know  wiio  built  the  shed?  A.— (),  I  have  for- 
got all  about  that. 

Q.— Cajitain  Ogilvie  was  master  and  attended  to  the  man- 
^Q   agemeiit  of  the  ship,  didn't  he,  except  in  regard  to  the  pilot- 
ing.    A. — Yes. 

Q. — Where  did  vou  go  after  Indians?  ,\. — To  Xew  Cliate 
h-t.  •:    1 

ii. —  Did  yon  go  aiivwhere  elsi'  up  (he  coast  in  the  canoes? 
A.— Xo.  \        i 

(J.— And  you  were  engaged  in  looking  for  Indians?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

t^— Did   you   gel    any  canoes  there  and   put  on   board   the 
"Carolena?"       A.— Tli.it  is  more  than  I  can  (ell  you.       I  have 
(3o    foruot  all  about  that. 

(^— You  came  back  (o  \'ic(oria?  A.— Yes.  1  think  there 
was  four  canoes  put  on  (he  scliooner. 

(2.— And  brought  back  to  Victoria?  .\.— Yes.  if  I  have  not 
forirolteii. 

().-  Vou  wouh;  not  lie  jiositive  about  that,  would  you?  .\. 
—  No.   I  can't   be,  because  I  don't   reliieniber. 

(}. — Did  von  see  tlieiii  lo:idc(l  on — three  liirue  canoes,  the 
largest  size?     A.     |  ain't  sure  of  i(.  sir,  bii(  1  (liink  (here  was. 


.10 


40 


00 


2  59 

(i. — Arc  von  as  siir(>  of  lliiil  iis  von  iirc  (liat  llic  siipplics 
were  loiidcd  back  on  the  vessel?  A. — \Vc  wasn't  f{oin^  t(» 
leave  tlieni  lliei'e  anvliow. 

il. — Yon  renieinl)«'r  distinctlv  ])nttin.i;  the  snpitlies  baek? 
A. —  I  know  lliev  was  all  jml  on  hoard. 

(^ — Did  von  have  anvthinji  to  do  with  lakinj;  them  ont  of 
the  ship  vonrself?     A.  —  I  snppose  I   helped. 

(2. — IMd  yon?     .\. —  I   expect    s<i. 

ij. — Did  yon  have  anythin<j  to  do  with  jinltinj;     liieiii     in 
10   there?     .\. — Well,  the  old  man  did  it  mostly. 

il. — Yon  didn't  TTandle  tiie  floods,  did  yon.  yoni'selt?  .\. — 
1  worked  some  altont   it. 

{}. — Yon  i-emenil»er  what  was  taken  otT  the  "("arolena"  and 
put   into  the  shed?     .\. — No.   I   don't    rememhei*  liiat. 

{}. — Don't  I'cmeniliei'  wlial  was  pnt  oil?  .\. —  1  know  there 
was  tloiir. 

(}. — Floni-  in  liai'rels?     .\. — Xo.  in  sacks. 

i}. — Do  yon  ri'member  of  the  bacon  and  hams  beinj;  pnl  olT? 
.\. — I  don't   remember. 
JO       (i. — .\ny  lumber?     A.-  'i'here  wiis  a  little  Intnber  thei'e. 

i}. — Was  it  taken  otT  IliC  "f'arolena" — Inmber  and  shinjih-s? 
.\. — 1  don't   remcmbei'  all  those  thinj's. 

il. — Do  yon  I'emembei'  how  lonj;  it  took  to  ^et  them  olT  the 
•■< "arolena"  into  the  shed,  pnt  in  the  boats  and  carried  ashore? 
.v. — 1  don't  believe  I  do. 

il. — And  yon  don't  renn  nibei-  how  lonj;  it  took  to  load  them 
on  ajjain?     A. — Xo. 

Q._I)i,l  ilH.y  take  all   (he  thinjis  ont   of  the  hold,  all   the 
>-)i|i]»Iies?     A. — It  is  so  lontr  a};o  1  have  forfjot. 
.50       (j. — Did  they  i)nt  .all  the  snpidies  back  in  the  hold?     .\. — 
i  don't  renieml)er.  they  mtist  be  iinl  in  the  iiold. 

(J. — Yon  don't  remember  it.  do  yon?     .\. — Xo,  I  do  not. 

(.1. — Did  yon  see  t'aptain  Mnnsie  last  ni^ht?     .\. — Xo.  sir. 

(}. — Who  spoke  to  yon  about  this  matter  of  bein^;  at  t'hate 
let  in  ISSI!?     A. — 1  seen  .Mr.  Mnnsie  this  mornin}^. 

(i. —  Did  he  come  to  ^ct  yon?  .\. —  lie  sent  a  carriajfc  nji. 
yes. 

Q. — .\nd  talked  with  yon  about  being  np  there  in  b'^SO?     .\. 
—  1  !:now  1  was  there. 
40       Q. — lie  talked  to  yon   tliis  morning,  did  he?     A. — Xo.  he 
wanted  me  to  tell  what   I  know. 

(i. — Did  he  yo  n]t  there  whei'c  you  were  liviuf;?  A. — 1  was 
in  the  lios])ital.  sir. 

i. — Did  he  iii>  u|)  tliere?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Dii-ect  e.xaminatitpn  ol   Me.  r.ra''t;  resuintd  b\    Mi-.  Modwell. 


iijl; 


■1: 


il — Wh(»  was  the  hunlci'  next  to  Lorenzo?     .\.—(\  l'\  Dil 
Ion. 
<i.— Did  he  hunt  in  the  month  of  .lune?     A. -lie  did. 
'  Ci.— On  what  davs?     A.— limit. 'd  the  'JSth  of  dune  ami  the 

{(Mh  of  .lum-. 

The  ("oiiimissioiicr  (HI  (he  pa.rt  of  (lie  Inited  S(ales:^l  iiii 
ileistaml  this  is  in  Mehring  sea? 

Mr.    Itodwell:— Yes. 

iTo  witiiessi:  Q. — The  evidence  you  iia\e  been  uiviiiij  re 
laics  to  the  caliji  ill   Iteiniiiu  sea  eiitiicly?     .\.     ^es,  sir. 

^'0       (i.— Did  he  hiinl  in  the  moiilh  of  .Inly?     .\.     lie  did. 

W- — Tell  ns  iIk  days  on  which  he  did  mil  ;:o  mil  in  the 
month  of  .Inly,  as  you  have  done  heretofore"  A.— .Inly  liiid 
iiol  lMiiiiiii<>.  Ill)  (iiiio.  ."ilh  dillo.  Till  dillo,  <iili  ditto,'  lOtli 
ditto,  lltth  ditlo.  LMIlh  ditto.  '_';trd  ditto.  -JTlli  ditto. 

g.— Any  half  days?     A.— Yes. 

(i.— Stale  them  'please?  .\.  :iid  of  .lul\  I  wo  li.niis.  I  I  III 
lialf  a  dav.  •_M(li  half  a  day. 

*i     Total  imiiiiImt  of  skills  for  .!iil\  ?     A.     20',\. 


26o 


vi! 


<i. — Did  tliiit  hiiiiliT  liiiiil  ill  tlic  iiiontli  of  Aii};iis(?  A.— 
lie  <iid. 

(i. — Slaii'  lilt'  diivs  in  A\i}iii  ,t  in  wliirli  lie  was  not  out?  A. 
—(he  nth  of  Anfrnst.  two  fion  tlii'  scliooncr,  tlii'  (illi  not  liunt- 
in<i.  I'-'lli  ditto,  i;{(h  ditto.  411i  ditlo.  Killi  dido,  17th  ditto, 
l.sth  ditto.  L'L'nd  ditto,  •J.'yV  ditto.  2(>tli  ditto.  'JTth  ditto.  'JMtli 
ditto,  liltth  ditto. 

Q.— Any  hnlf  davs?     /..—Yes. 

(i.— Slate  Ihcni.  plea."  •?  A.— The  11th  a  half  dav.  IHth  half 
,o  day.  21st  half  dav.  ;'ifh  half  dav. 

g.— Total  catch  lor  Anjfiisl?     A.— inS. 

ti.— Was  tha^  all  the  hunters?  A.— That  was  all  the  liun- 
lei's. 

Q. — Have  y<  u  anv  recoid  of  the  stein  lioat  for  the  month  of 
August?     A.— ^  have. 

(i. — That  was  your  own  boat?  A. — That  was  the  boat  1 
liunted  in. 

(i. — Now  state  what  days  the  stei'U  boat  hunted,  and  what 
voui'  catch  was  in  the  month  of  Anjiust?  A. — The  1st  14, 
20  '{nl  ;5.  4th  1.  (!th  1.  SIh  0.  KMh  12.  inth  :!.  (half  a  day)  l!)th  5, 
24th  1.  25(h  1  from  the  schooner. 

Q.— Will  you  look  at  the  l!)th  afjaln?  A.— Five  fioni  the 
scliooner.  I  have  it  marked  here. 

(i. — What  was  the  total  catch  for  the  month  of  August? 
A.— 47. 

ii. — Have  you  in  your  book  any  record  of  the  stern  boat 
for  the  month  of  -July?     A. — I  have  not. 

Q. — From  your  book  can  yon  state  the  total  number  of 
seals  you  caught  outside  of  Uelii'ing  sea  that  year?  A.— I 
can. 

ii. — Ilow  nninv  did  vou  catch  outsidi'  of  the  sea  if  t'at 
year?     A.— lS(i!).' 

(•i. — Have  vou  vour  total  catch  for  the  season  in  vonr  H>i«k? 
A.— I  have.  ' 

<i.— What   was  the  total  catch  ftir  the  season?     A.— 4.2(i4. 

(i.— And  the  catch  outside  of  tlie  sea  was  l.S(!<»?  A.— 
1,S(!!).  Tliere  was  two  of  them  seal  that  .Tacob.'^en  got  in  llie 
month  of  .Vugust.  that  1  wouldn't  swear  whellier  he  caught 
them  in  the  sea.  or  in  the  Pacific  on  our  way  home. 

Q. — So  you  have  taken  those  otT  have  you?  A. — I  jiut 
'1^°   them  onto  the  i-oast  catch. 

The  rommissioner  on  the  jiart  of  the  I'nited  Stati's: — How 
much  does  that  leave  for  the  Sea? 

.Mr.  i;odwell:-2:«)il. 

(-i. — Those  figures  are  ligiil.  .are  they.  .Mr.  Uragg?  A.— 1 
think  so.  sir. 

(2.— W'iiere  is  the  coast  c.iich  III  that  book?  A.— There 
was  one  seal  that  was  gatfed  alongside  the  vessel  in  the 
50    month  of  .\ugust.      That  we  ain't  to  give  as  evidence  here. 

Q. —  Wliat  did  you  get  on  the  ("alifornia  coast?  A. — Cali- 
fornia. Oregon  and   X'anconver  coast.  704. 

ti. — You  lia\"  thai  marked  in  your  book?  A. — I  have 
that  marki'd  in  tlie  book. 

i-i. —  Wliat  did  yon  j;cl  on  file  .\hiska  coast,  have  you  that 
marked?  .\.— [  have  it  marked  here.  IKIS.  I  added  the 
704  and  llie  litis,  and  them  three  that  I  was  donblfnl  about 
I  iiiit  on  the  co.ist  catch. 


30 


60 


.Mr.  Ilodwell:— I  will  noi  t;ike  the  lime  of  the  ('omiiiission- 
ers  iio«  ill  gi\ilig  tile  ligillrs,  but  I  pl-opose  to  put  in  the  lllllll- 
lier  of  Sells  taken  liy  each  man  nn  nicli  day  in  tabulated  form. 

The  < 'oiiimissiniiri  on  till'  pail  of  Her  Majesty:  What  was 
llie  name  of  your  \esscl?       .\.-  "Mary  Kllen."  sir. 

(i.  -You  wei'"  not  iiiterfcicd  with  llial  veai?  .\,  Not  at 
all. 


10 


20 


40 


50 


no 


26l 

Q. — And  huuU'd  until  you  wore  roiidv  to  go  lionu'?  A. — 
\Vt'  did. 

ii. —  Did  you  know  a  liuntcr  nanu-d  Joseph  Dupont?  A. — 
I  do,  or  did.      He  is  ilcad  now. 

il. — .Vnd  a  hunter  named  McCaniti-y?      A. — No,  I  did  not. 

(i.— ShiehlH?      A.—I  did. 

(l — lohn  CotNfoi-d?      A.— 1  do. 

Q. — How  did  tlioHe  men  compare  with  your  men  as  hunt- 
ers— the  men  in  (he  "Maiy  Ellen''  I  mean?      A. — Well,  Home 
10  of  them  were  ecpial. 

(i. — (Compare  your  own  men  w'ti;  those?  A. — Some  of 
lliem  were  not. 

Q. — Now  you  Iiad  better  sju'eify  those.  What  men  do  yon 
siiy  were  as  ijood  as  yours?  A. — Jaeobson  and  Jtilian  were 
suj)posed  to  l)e  the  two  best  Ininters  we  had. 

Q. — Do  you  mean  (o  say  tlial  (liey  were  as  f;ood  as  these 
othei-  men  I  have  given.  Was  .lacobsen  as  good  a  man  as 
Diipont?      A. — He  was. 

Q. — Was  lie  as  good  a  man  as  M(.<'anitry?       A. — I  don't 
20   know  .Mc<"anitry. 

Q. — \\as  he  as  good  a  man  as  Shields?      A. — Fie  was. 

Q. — As  good  a  man  as  i'otsford?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Now  then.  De  Fries,  was  he  as  good  a  man  as  Duponi? 
A. — I  shotild  say  he  was. 

Q.— As  good  .IS  Shields?      A. — 1  think  so. 

Q.— And  (\)tstord?       A.— I  think  so. 

Q. — Was  .lulian  considered  as  good  a  man  as  Dupont?  A. 
— T  lliink  so. 

Q.— .\nd  as  lh(<  other  two?      A.— Yes. 
^0       Q. — And  Lorenzo?       A. — Well,  I  couldn't  say  that  he  was. 

Q. — Was  not  as  good  a  man  as  the  others'  A. — Well,  I 
don't  know  but  that  lie  was  ''qual.' 

Q. — Tie  was  not  any  better?       A. — No,  I  think  not. 

Tile  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — In 
stating  these  hunters  Mr.  IJodwell.  has  the  witness  stilted 
their  nationality? 

.Mr.  I'.odwell: — He  <uily  gave  (me  of  them,  that  is.  Julian. 

JO       'I'lx'  t'ommissioner  on  the  part  of  the  Tnited  States: — Were 
tiu'V  whites  or  Indians? 

T!ie  Witness:— White  men. 

The  t.'onmiissioner  (/u  Hie  ]iart  of  the  liiited  States: — How 
were  the  canoes  manned?      A. — Hunted  in  boats. 


50 


The  Commissioner  on  tli"  part  of  H<'r  Majesty: — How 
many  men  would  there  be  in  a  boat?  A. — Three  men.  your 
ilononi',  two  and  the  hunter. 

The  ('oiiimissiiuier  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesfy: — These  men 
would  row  the  l<oat?  .\. — One  man  would  row  the  boat,  and 
the  otiier  would  steer,  voiir  Honour. 


-Mr.  l?odwell: — .\nd  only  oii"  man  hunting  in  the  boat?     .\. 
-One  iiiiin  limiting  in  the  l>oal. 

Ci'ossexaminaiion  bv   .Mi'.  Wair»n. 


^.0 


Q. — Was  this  111.  Inst  year  tlinl  you  were  in  the  Sea  Mr. 
Itragg?      .\. — 1\  was  my  iii>t  year  in  the  Sea. 

(.y — Had  you  ever  liuiit<'d  with  these  liniiteis  before  on  tin' 
coast?      A.—I  never  had. 

(■i- — Had  von  ever  Ininted  before  anywhere?  A.—I  never 
liad  liiinted  seals,  no. 

(i. — Do  voii  know  the  experience  that  Dillon  had  had  in 
liiiiiliii!."?  .\.— I  thiiiU  one  year  previous  to  that;  1  coiihln't 
swear  posit'vely. 


M 


'1^ 


,<kl 


262 


■iflMiii 


Q. — And  liow  iibout  .lulian  in  that  regard?  Was  lie  an  cx- 
IK'iienced  liiinh'f?       A.— Iiilian  was  an  ex])Ciienced  liunter. 

ii. — And  Lori'n/,(t?      A. — Lorenzo  was  a  new  niiin,  I  think. 

Q. —  I)e  Fries?      A. — lie  was  an  exi)erieneed  hnnter, 

Q. — Do  you  know  Jaeobsen?  had  he  been  out  before?  A. — 
Jaeobsen  liad  been  out  before,  yes. 

(i. — Tlie  master  of  tlie  "Mary  Ellen"  that  year  was  Daniel 
McLean,  was  it  not?      A. — (Japtain  Daniel  JleLean. 

Q. — One  of  the  most  experienced  sealing  captains  in  Ihe 
10   business.      A. — lie  was. 

<}. — And  tlie  "Mary  Kllen"  was  manned  entirely  by  white 
men  and  used  white  liuuters  entirely?     A. — Yes. 

ii. — Did  they  use  guns  in  their  boats?     A. — They  did. 

(i.— Did  they  use  Itoats  or  canoes?     A. — Uoats. 

Q.— .\nd  had  live  boats?  A. — Five  boats  and  a  stern 
boat. 

ii. — There  were  three  men  in  a  boat  when  tliey  \vent  out 
from  the  vessel?  A. — Three  men  in  a  boat,  wUli  the  excej) 
tion  of  the  stern  boat.  ' 

20       Q. — 'n„>  stern  boat  woidd  only  go  out  occasionally  when 
you  had  not  anyOiiug  else  to  do?     A. — Only  occasionally. 

Q.— The  ".Mary  Kllen"  entered  the  sea  that  year  you  say 
about  the  2()lli  of  .lune,  or  the  •JCtli  of  .lune?  A.— The  2.")tli  of 
-June. 

Q. — Vou  hunted  but  two  days  in  the  sea  that  month?  A. 
— Two  <lavs  in  .Iniu'. 

ti.— The  liC.lh  and  the  l2Sth?  A.— 2Sth  and  :{(tth,  if  I  re- 
inendier  right. 

Q. — Do  your  books  ,<ihow  Ihe  location  of  your  vessel  at  the 
3°   time  vou  took  these  seals?     .\. — Latitude  and  longitude? 

ti.— Yes.     A.— It  doesn't. 

0. — Do  you  know  where,  from  your  memory,  you  were  in 
the  sea  about  the  lind  day  of  August?  A. — lind  day  of  Aug- 
ust we  were  in  the  s(>a. 

Q. — \Vhereabouts  in  tlie  sea,  I  said?  A —I  couldn't  tell 
you. 

Q. — You  have  no  memory?     .\.— To  that  fffcct. 

0. — Do  you  know  where  the  log  for  the  "Mary  Ellen"  for 
that  year  is?     A. — I  do  not. 
"*  (.}. — It  is  not  in  your  jiossession?     A. —  II  is  not  in  my  pos- 

session. 

Q. — Did  you  sjieak  the  "<'arolena"  that  y<'ar?  A. — No,  not 
that  I  know  of. 

Q. — Did  vou  see  the  "Onward"?  .\. — Xot  that  I  am  aware 
of. 

Q.— Tl Favorite"?     A.— Xo. 

Q.— Tlie  "Thornton"?     .\.— I  think  not. 

Q. — Then  you  were  iiot  iiunting  in  their  immediate  vicinity 


50 


on  the  '2u(\  (hiv  of  .\ui:ust ' 


-Well,  tliev  mijiht  have  been 


there,  but  we  didn't  Iciiow  who  they  were.      I  don'l  remember 
whi'lher  tliere  was  any  vessels  in  sight  or  not. 

ii. — \ow.  lefcriiiig  to  the  little  book  whicii  you  ju'oduced, 
Mr.  Mra^ig.  and  t:il;iii!i  the  month  of  .Vuj:tist,  witli  reference 
to  the  liuntei-  .lac.ihsiii :  I  believe  vou  slated  that  he  did  not 
hunt  on  the  .^lli.  (Itli,  I'Jtli  Hlh.  iVtli,  ISih,  L'lind,  LMJth  and 
L'Stii  of  .\u!;iist.  witii  tlie  cxri'iilioii  of  half  (ia\s  on  tlie  llth, 
1."»tli,  lilsl,  L'lth  and  ::7th?  Is  tiial  correct?  A.— Well,  I 
diilu't  have  llie  jiajie  tiiiiicil  uii  w  hni  you  were  readirifi',  so  I 
60   couldn't  sav. 


40 


50 


''^o 


(Question   repeated.) 

A.— -4tii  was  (lie  (list-  no,  excuse  me,  the  .Mil. 

Q.— Take  the  next  hiinler.  De  Fries,  vou  stated  that  lie  did 
not  hunt  on  the.'ith,  <illi.  Ilitli.  l.",tli.  Ktli,  Ifitli,  ITtli,  l,S(h,22nd 
2r.th,  L»t;tii,  L'Tlh,  L'Sth,  Uiilh.  is  lliat  riglil?  .\.  -That  is  cor- 
rect. 


263 


Q.— Wifli  tlic  cxccptidii  of  half  davH  on  Uii-  lllli  l.ltli  iiin1 
•nth'!     A.— 1 1th,  mth  iiiid  241h. 

Q. — And  .Inliiiii  did  not  hnnl  on  (he  (itli  of  Aujiust,  i:itli, 
r.'.lh,  14th.  Ktth,  17th.  IStli.  2r.lh,  2(Jth.  27th,  L'Stli  nor  liltth. 
wTth  the  ('X('('i»lion  of  half  dnvH  on  the  Trtli.  tith,  12lh,  14th, 
ir.th.  2lHf  and  24th?      A.— TIio  22nd  not  hnntinp  for  Jnlian. 

(}. — lU'  did  not  hnnt  ?      A. — Xot  hunting;. 

(y — liorcnzo.  lind  his  jdacc  in  tin-  hook;  yon  stated  he  did 

not  hunt  on  tlu'  oth,  (Itli.  12th.   14th.  llith!  17lh.  22nd.  2.''.th. 

10  •J7lli.  2Sth.  witli  the  cxccittion  of  lialf  <lays  on  tlw  ir)th,  21st, 

21tli?     Is  that  corn'.t?      A.— The  11th  is  tin-  Hist  half  day. 

ir)th.  and  the  21st  and  the  24th. 

O. — Addinfi  the  11th  as  a  half  day  to  what  I  read,  it  is 
I  (HTCi't.  is  it?     A. — (initc  correct. 

{}. — .\nd  Dillon.  1  Ixdicvc  yon  stat<-d  that  Dillon  did  not 
Iniiit  on  the  (ith.  12tli.  i:{th.  u'lh.  Kith.  17tli.  ISth.  22nd,  2r)th, 
2(;tii.  27tli.  2!»lh.  of  Aufjnst.  and  that  he  hunted  no  half  days? 
A.— The  nth  a  half  dav. 

(^._\Viijit  dav?     A.— The  1 1th  of  Au-iust   lie  hunted  a  half 
^O   ,li,y. 

ly — Willi  that  exce](tion  it  is  correct,  is  it?  A. — And  on 
the  Titli  of  Aufiust  he  tfot  two  seals  from  the  schooner. 

Q.— With  these  exceptions  it  is  correct,  is  it?  A. — The 
l.-.th  a  half  dav  for  Dillon.  The  lltli.  the  l.'.lh,  24th  and  the 
21  St  a  half  day. 

t^.— Those  are  the  only  changes  in  Auft'ist  for  Dillon?  A. 
— Yes. 

Q. — You  did  not  hunt  much  in  Aufjust  of  that  year?     .\. — 
Well.  1  think  we  hunted  considerable. 
5'-'       (I. —  Is  that  a    fair  average  of  days  to  lie  out   during  the 
iiionfli?     A. — I  think  it  is,  yes.  sir. 

Q. — Was  that  a  stoniiy  August,  or  just  ordinary?  A. — 
.lust  an  ordinary  A  ugiist. 

t^. — .\nd  you  think  you  hunted  the  usual  niimlier  of  days 
(hiring  lliat  month,  do  you?     A. — I  do. 

(i. — There  was  notiiing  unusual  about  your  siiip;  the  only 
reason  yon  did  not  iiunt  was  on  account  of  the  weather,  was 
it?     .\. — Sometimes  wlieii  seal  are  scarce  lliey  liiint  them  up. 

ii. — Yon  did  not   niiderslaiid  my  nuesiion.     I     asked     you 
wiiether  any  accident  occurred  to  your  lioat,  or  anything  an 
itsiiat  wFiicii  caused  your  seiilers  to  remain  in?    A. — \o  acci- 
dent whatever. 

i-l. — And  you  went  out  when  it  was  good  weatiier?  A. — 
We  went  out   when  it   was  good  weather. 

Q. — And  stayed  in  when  it  was  had  weather?  .\. — Stayed 
I'll  wiieii  it   was  had  or  foggy  weather 

<7-— And  (he  imiKer  of  tile  weatFier  entirely  governed  your 
niiivemenis  as  to  wlieilieryou  would  liuiit  or  not  that  month? 
.\. — ^ Cs.  Ilien  was  one  day  in  the  nioiilh.  in  -Inly  or  .\ugust, 
thai  the  captain  (iirned  one  of  ttie  hiinler's  boats  over.  I 
couldn't  say  what   day  il    was;  he  diiln't  hunt   that   nnn'ning. 

Q. —  I  Ii<'lie\-e  yon  hiive  slated  thai  you  took  2:i!l.'i  sejils  in 
llie  Sea  tlial  year?  .V.— That  is  what  the  tigures  show  in 
llie  book. 

Q.  -  rra\e  yon  llie  figures  at  haixl.  so  thai  yon  can  till  us 
H-fwf  [nirf  of  fli;t(  catch  yon  took  in,  August?  .\. — No.  I 
liaven'l    the  IkI.iIs  added    up. 

Mr.  DickiuMin: — You  can  give  the  totals  for  Ang'ist   I  sup 

pO.<lt'. 


40 


io 


f'O 


Mr.  Peters: — Tns(  a  niaMer  of  addin-;  up. 

Tile  Commissioner  ■tn  tlie  jiarl  of  the  I'liited  Stales:— T-et 
tiim  make  n  a<'curale,  ami  include  th-e  lirsl  day  ol  .\ngnst. 

Mr.  Itodwill; — 1  was  going  to  pni  in  :\n  absiracl.  I  will  give 
voii  ,i  table  tor  (acli  month. 


.il 


!M 


264 


MlMi 


'   1 


10 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


The  roniiniHsioner  on  the  part  of  the  T'nitod  States: — I 
would  like  to  iiiive  (liciii  .idded  up  I0  and  including  the  (irst 
day  of  Auj,'ust.  M)  as  to  make  an  exact  conipaiisou  with  the 
"Carolena."' 

Mr.  Peters: — That  is  the  way  our  table  is  made  up.  It 
}j;ives  \u}jrust  Hei»arately. 

The  (.'onnnissioner  on  the  part  of  the  T'nited  States: — To 
and  inclndinfi  the  first  day  of  Ausrust.  your  tables  are  not 
made  up  at  all,  are  they,  lor  tlu'  vari<tiis  months. 

Air.  Uddwell:— I  have  a  ty;>ewritten  copy,  not  (juite  in  shape 
— that  1  can  hand  to  jou  (jasses  up  type -written  table). 

The  Commisioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — For 
my  own  purjiosi'  I  desire  to  have  a  statement  made  up  to  and 
including  the  first  day  of  Au^tiisl  eoi-respondiuf;;  exactly  with 
the  "Carolena." 

Mr.  Peters:  -1  will  call  attention  to  the  fact  that  she  was 
seized  at  six  ('dock  in  the  morning. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  jiart  of  the  United  States: — The 
"Cai'olena?"  I  !iiouj;lit  it  was  half  past  seven  at  nij^ht  but 
l»erhaps  I  am  mistaken  about  it. 

Mr.  Warren: — If  your  Ifoiiour  j»l<'ase,  th<>y  did  not  hunt 
the  tlrst  four  davs  in  .\ut{ust,  so  it   will  commence  Au};ust 

nth. 

Q.—  Do  you  know  wh<>ther  or  not  yonr  catch  was  larger  or 
smaller  in  August  than  in  other  months  of  that  year  that 
yon  were  in  the  Sea — in  fluly?  A. — I  couldn't  say  accurate- 
ly, I  never  added  the  columns  up.  The  "Mary  Kllen"  that 
year  took  l.Sti!)  skins. 

Q. — In  what  you  call  her  coast  cjitch'.'      A. — Yes. 

(2.— That  made  a  total  of  l.'.2(t4.  Now  .Mr.  Itragg.  is  not 
that  the  gi-eatest  catdi  ever  made'.'     A. — No. 

(J. — What  vessel  ever  took  a  gi'eater  number  of  skins'/  A. 
— Tile  schooner  "Triuni|)h." 

(2.— In  what  year'.'     A.— 1S!»4.  I  tliiiik  was  the  year. 

Q. — In  the  i-ai'ly  days,  and  up  io  1S1)4,  this  is  tlie  greatest 
cal''h  evei'  mad<',  is  it   not'.'     A. —  It   was. 

Q. — And  is  known  as  sudi  among  sealers'/      A. — Yes. 

Q.— And  is  to  tliis  day'.'  .\.— Willi  Die  excejilion  of  the 
"Triumi)h." 

(i. — \\'\h>  was  the  Uiaster  of  the  "Triumph"  when  she  made 
her  catch  in  is;>f?      A.— Cai)ta(in  Clarence  Cox. 

Q. — For  how  many  months  was  slx'  out'.'  A. — I  couldn't 
tell  yon. 

(.}. — Did  tliat  include  a  trip  to  .lapaa  and  back,  as  well  as 
along  tile  coast  and  in  tlie  Sea".'     .\. — Not   \o  .la|>an. 

Q. — \\'lien  did  tlie  "M.iry  Kllen"  sail  fiom  San  Francisco  in 
iSSd?     A.— I  tliink  the  daie  was  the  'JSih  df  .liuiuary. 

(i.~-.\nd  she  went  along  up  the  coast".'  .\. — Coast  of  Cali 
f(U-nia  ami  Oi'i'gon. 

Q.— Did  she  .■oin<'  into  X'ictoria?      A.— Sh(>  did. 

Q. — And  she  left  \'ict<iiia  anil  wimiI  up  the  coast'?  A. — 
Landed  her  roast  catch,  went  from  N'idoria  along  up  the 
(oasi  of  .Maska. 

Q. — You  got  your  white  hunters  that  yeai'  fi'om  San  Fran 
Cisco,  did  you".'  A. — In  San  Francisco  the  wliole  crew  was 
sliijiped. 

1^. — .\nd  yon  onttiMed  in  San  I'rancisc.i".'  .\.^()ullltted  in 
San  Francisco. 

(2.— What  kind  of  guns  did  yon  Iu-im'?  .\.— There  was 
two  Smith  guns,  unil  lli>'  olJH-rs  I  wouldn't  lie  sure  what 
kind  of  guns. 


205 

Q. — Was  each  huncr  furnished  with  a  gun  or  two  guns? 
A. — (jun  and  a  rille. 

Q. — And  w('i«'  t'lH'  j,'!ins  in  good  condition  or  witc  thc.v  old 
Kiiiis?  A. — Honit'  of  them  were  new,  and  some  of  tlieni 
liad  been  used  vears  hefor(>. 

Q. — Now  witneHH,  does  it  mnlce  any  difference  about  the 
(iitili  of  a  vessel,  the  capacity  and  experience  of  the  hunters? 
A.— It  does. 

Q. — Does  it  make  a  difference  whether  there  are  two  men 
lo   in  a  boat,  and  as  to  whether  they  are  canoes  or  boats?      A. — 
Well,  it  makes  a  difference  to  white  hunters  whether  there 
is  two  or  tliree  men  in  a  boat. 

Q. — And  if  tlicre  were  only  two  men  in  a  boat  int U-ad  of 
three,  they  would  not  have  as  jjood  results,  I  suppose?  A. — 
J  don't  think  they  would,  no. 

Q. — And  if  they  did  not  have  as  jrood  ffuns,  they  would  not 
have  as  fjood  results,  would  they?  A. — Well,  you  tiike  an  ()ld 
nun.  ami  sometimes  it  will  slioot  as  well,  and  better,  than  a 
lii^h  j)riced  one. 
20  Q- — -^  K"i>  tl'i>^  will  carry  well  you  get  more  skins  with 
than  with  a  jxtor  one  of  course?     A. — Yes. 

(.1. — When  a  man  is  out  in  a  regular  sealing  boat  he  can 
carry  more  skins,  can  he  not,  on  a  trip,  than  he  can  in  a 
canot'?  A. — Well,  1  don't  think  he  can,  because  you  can 
skin  all  the  seals  that  you  are  capable  of  getting  in  a  day. 

(.1. — Is  it  not  a  fact  that  the  Indians  cannot  carry  as  many 
skins  in  their  canoes  as  a  white  man  can  carry  in  his  boat? 
A. — I  don't  think  it  is,  that  is,  in  a  day's  catidi. 

Q. — They  carry  a  whole  seal  back  to  the  vessel,  don't  they? 
30  A. — Not  always. 

Q. — Is  that  the  reason  you  had  three  men?  A. — Three  men 
in  tlie  boat? 

Q. — Ddn't  thev  in  tiiose  davs?    A. — Not  all  of  them. 

Q.— Did  the  ""Mary  Ellen""/    A.— No. 

Q. — You  skinned  them  out  in  the  small  boat?  A. — Skin- 
ned soui"  in  the  small  boat. 

(J. — if  there  were  two  men  in  the  boat,  could  they  do  that? 
A.— They  could. 

Q. — Where  you  had  three  men  in  a  boat,  could  you  capture 
more  of  the  seals  that  were  actually  shot,  or  wounded,  than 
when  you  had  two  men  in  a  boat?     A. — Yes. 

(i. — And  that  would  make  a  difference  would  it?  A. — It 
would,  yes. 

(i.— What  other  contingencies  are  there,  witness,  that  yon 
know  of,  that  would  make  a  differenc<'  in  results  of  one  liun- 
Icr  as  i'gainst  another,  or  of  one  l)(»at  as  against  another?  A. 
—  I  don't  understand  your  question. 

<i. — WliJit  facts  that  you  Iciiow  of  arise  tliat  make  a  differ 
I'lice  in  the  catch  of  one  l)oat  as  c(nn])ared  with  another,  ex 
(•('](t  the  scarcity  oi-  picniifulness  of  seals?  A. — Well,  some 
liunlers  are  sii])erior  to  others,  and  then  again  it  depends  on 
yoiir  float's  ci'ew. 

(i. — Your  vessel's  cr  w,  vou  mean?  .\. — Tiie  crew  of  the 
boat.  '  , 

(J.— Of  llie  small  boat?     A.— Of  the  small  boat.  yes.  sir. 

(i.  "What  do  you  mean  by  tliat?  Wliat  would  depend  up- 
<pn  the  ei'ew?  As  to  whether  they  could  reach  the  seal  or  not 
aftei'  it  was  shot?  A. —  It  is  in  chasing  a  cripple,  or  in  get- 
ting over  more  ground;  a  good  crew  can  get  over  nioi'e 
ground  ill  a  da/  than  a  jioor  crew,  and  the  more  ground  you 
go  over  tlie  11101     seals  you  are  lialtle  to  get. 

li- — Do  results  v  'peiid  any  on  the  cajiacify  of  a  master  of  a 
Vessel  as  to  fiis  exj  erience  in  tlie  matter  of  locating?  A. — 
It  iloes. 

<i. — .Slid  the  cajita  '  of  your  vessel.  Diiniel  McLean,  was 
one  of  ihe  most   expe>    'iieed  ni'-n  in  tiie  business?     .\. — He 

WHS. 


40 


50 


r,o 


!i!-H 


■■■■■■  \  III    f 


^^\m 


•III 


i;i; 


& 


■'r-"'"wnw^ 


tG6 


<<|Mi.M 


10 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


Q. — And  he  iiiul  liis  brollicr,  Ah-xaiidcr  McLean,  wore  per 
liajis  tlM'  two  nioHl  cxitcrii'iiccd  men  that  over  left  this  poii 
in  those  (lavs?  A. —  I  was  never  willi  ("aptain  AU'X.  Mc- 
Lean, but  lie  alwavs  had  that  reinitation  anionf;  the  sealers. 

(i.— Does  it  depend  anv  on  the  crew  of  the  vessel  itself? 
A. — That  is  the  boat  pullers  and  the  boat  steerers? 

Q.— No,  the  crew  of  the  vessel  itself?  A.— Well,  they  are 
llu'  sailors,  the  ci'ew — boat  ])nllers  and  stit'i'ers. 

Q. — Don't  \t>!i  cai'ry  some  sailors  that  are  not  hunters  or 
boat  pullers  or  steerei-s?  \. — Sometimes  they  <arry  a  deck 
hand. 

(i. — And  did  he  ^o  in  llie  stern  boat  with  you?  \. — lie 
did,  yes. 

(I. — How  many  men  did  you  have  in  the  stern  boat?  A. — 
One  man. 

(}. — You  stated  that  \m\  stayed  in  the  sea  that  year  a  little 
later  than  the  li4th  of  Au),Mist,  but  that  yon  took  the  last  seal 
OH  the  l!Hli?  .\. — That  was  the  last  day  we  hunted,  but  there 
was  seal  cau};ht  after  that.  I  wouldn't  say  wiiether  they  were 
in  the  Sea  or  wiiether  we  jrot  them  on  the  way  lionu'.  after  we 
came  throuffh  the  I'ass.  One  I  am  positive  we  fjot  after  we 
came  thnnifih  the  I'ass. 

il. — The  24th  of  Anjiust  was  jiractically  the  close  of  the 
sealinfj  that  year  in  Helirinjj;  sea,  was  it?  .\.— It  was  the 
close  of  our  sealiuji. 

Q. — The  close  of  your  sealinj;?  \. — That  is  what  my  bonks 
show. 

Q. — Did  you  i\mw  away  earlier  tliat  year  than  others,  or 
did  you  stay  the  ordinary  limit  of  the  sealinji;  season?  A. — 
That  was  the  ordinary  limit  at  that  time. 

(i. — In  those  years?     A. — In  those  years. 

(i. — And  in  1SS7  it  was  about  tlie  limit?  A. — About  the 
limit  in  ISS". 

Q. — The  boats  that  were  outfitted  to  }io  from  ^'ictoria  in 
ISSti  and  1SS7,  were  onttitted  so  that  it  would  compel  them  to 
leave  the  Sea  at  that  time?  A. — Tlie  vessels  that  I  liavi' 
been  in. 

Q. — Why  did  the  season  close  on  or  about  the  24th  of  Aur- 
ust.  ISSf),  and  1SS7?  A.-— Well  comins;  on  the  first  of  Seii- 
teniber  the  weather  (ommences  to  get  bad.  The  northwest- 
ers set  in  about  the  latter  ])art  of  August,  and  as  a  rule  they 
take  the  fiist  northwester  about  the  last  of  August  and  sti-er 
for  home. 

Q. — Tlie  season  was  shorter  in  tliese  yeai's  than  it  is  today, 
is  that  not  a  fact?  A. — That  is  correct  as  regards  the  ves- 
sels that  I  hav"  been  in. 

(I. — And  when  tlu-y  talk  about  the  season  extending  into 
September,  they  do  not  sjieak  of  the  y«'ars  ISStt  and  1SS7?  A. 
— I  never  remained  in  tliere  that  late. 

Q. — And  you  never  knew  any  one  else  to  r<'niain  in  tiien> 
that  late  in  those  years?      A. — No  I  did  not. 

Q, — And  although  you  stayed  there  that  year  until  the  21  st 
of  .\ugust  you  did  it  to  get  a  favorabh'  wind  to  come  down? 
A. — The  captain  said  llie  tirst  iiorthw 'sti'r  he  would  gel  he 
would  steer  for  home. 

(J. — And  U  i\  i)(;/f  A  wester  came  along  before  the  24tli  of 
.\)if!iist  you  would  have  taken  advantage  of  that?  A. — I  do 
not  Know  tliat  we  would. 

Q. — If  I  gave  you  your  location  on  the  "Mary  Ellen"  on 
the  2filh  August,  if  I  give  yon  your  latitude  and  longitude, 
would  von  know  wliere  aliouts  von  were  with  reference  to  the 
Pribyloflf  Islands?       A.— No,  I  would  not. 

Q. — It  apjtears  fro;n  the  claim  of  the  "('nrolena"  in  this 
case,  that  on  tin  1st  of  .\ugUNt  she  was  in  north  latitude 
.'•n.l'id  a  1(1  west  longilnde  KIS..*?.'!.  T  will  ask  you  if  on  the  2nd 
of  .\ui'ust   vou  have  anv  reinemlu'ance  as  to  wiiether  (U'  nor 


267 


llu!  "3l!iry  Elli'ii"  wiin  in  iiordi  lalitudt!  54."  ami  west  longti- 
Half  Hix."(»?      A.— I  have  iio(. 

(i. — I  will  hIiow  ymi  the  nicnioraiKliim  lo  rcfrcHli  jour  r«'- 
collccUoii,  and  I  ask  .von  if  that  is  a  coitv  <»f  llu!  log  of  llio 
".Man-  Kllcn"  for  ISIHI?      A.— I  cannot  ("ell  .V(»ii. 

(i-— Wi'll,  you  have  not  read  it  luivc  you?  A. — 1  conld 
not  ti'Il  you  any  how. 

(i- — Voii  wt'i'c  asked  wlu-thcr  your  huntors  were  as  good  as 

("otsford  and  Dupont  and  Shields.     Will  you  tell  nie  whether 

10   llicse  nu'n  were  as  f^ood  as  your  hunters?      A. — I  have  not 

been  shipinales  with  either  one  of  tlieni,  but  they  have  had  a 

;;ood  reputation  as  hunters. 

Q. — Do  you  know  whether  t'olsford  was  ever  out  before 
the  season  of  1,S8(!?      A. — 1  cannot  tell  you. 

Q. — What  do  you  know  about  liis  reputation  in  1S8G?'  A, 
— Well  among  the  hunters  they  said  ('otsford  was  a  good 
hunter. 

Q. — I  thought  you  said  yon  did  not  know  whether  he  was 
out  before  oi'  not?      A. — 1  do  not  know. 
"^       Q. —  l>id  Ik'  have  the  reputation  of  having  been  out  before? 
.\. — Not  that  I  know  of. 

Q. — IFow  did  lie  have  any  reputation  as  a  seal  hunter?  A. 
—  I  cannot  say,  I  <'annot  tell  you. 

Q.— Did  he  have  any?  A. — I  did  not  say  that  he  did,  but 
I  sav  the  hunters  told  me  he  was  a  good  hunter. 

q".— Did  they  tell  you  in  1880  or  aft«'rwards?  A.— In  188<5 
as  I  understood. 

Q.-  Had  you  heard  of  Dupont  in  ISSfi?      A.— I  cannot  say, 
,p.    1  do  not  remember. 
'•^       Q.— Had  y<ni  heard  of  Shields  in  iS8(!?      A.— Yes. 

Q.— Had  iie  been  out  before,  do  you  know?  A.— I  cannot 
say. 

Q. — And  what  about  llcConahay,  the  other  nnin?  A. — 
I  do  not  know  the  ni.'in. 

i^. — Will  your  book.s  when  com))iled  in  the  memorandum  of 
Mr.  liodwell  show  the  number  of  skins  taken  in  the  stern 
boat?      A. — I  have  the  total  number  yea. 

Q.— You  hav  the  total  number  for  the  entire  season?     A. 
40  — For  tlu'  entire  season. 

(}.— For  Itehriiig  Sea?      A. — \ot  for  tlie  Behring  Sea,  no. 

Q.— W,  the  stern  boat  in  use  in  July  in  the  Ilehring  Sea? 
A. — She  was. 

(i.— Was  she  as  much  in  use  as  the  other  boats?  A. — Oh, 
no. 

Q._Was  sh( 
do  vou  know? 


50 


r,o 


in  use  as  much  in  July  as  she  was  in  August, 
A. — About  the  same. 

Q._Yon  used  these  boats  a  part  of  the  time  in  the  Beh- 
ling  Sea  during  July  and  August.  A.— S(mie  days  1  might 
get  out  half  a  day,  and  some  days  T  might  only  get  out  for 
two  hours.  If  a  iiunier  came  on  board  witli  seals  to  skin,  the 
captain  would  put  a  (lag  out  for  me  to  come  on  board  and 
skin  them. 

Q._l  believe  you  said  lliat  you  stayed  in  I?ehring  Sea  as 
long  as  you  desired,  and  that  you  did  not  come  out  because  of 
iuiv  si'izures  in  ISSfi?      A.— Not  that  I  was  aware  of. 

Q._AVha1  was  the  lay  that  was  paid  the  hunters  that  year 
on  your  boat?  A.— I  did  not  see  tlie  articles,  but  I  was  told 
tJiiit  they  were  receiving  $\~A\  per  skin. 

Q._\V..,H  (hat  a  lower  or  liiglier  rate  than  was  i)aid  to  hun- 
ters shipped  at  Victoiia?  A.— 1  think  it  was  about  the  same 
for  the  best  hunters. 

Q.— Did  you  hear  of  the  seizure  of  the  "rarolena"  in  the 
Sea  that  year?      .\.  -No  not  that  I  remember. 

KecXiMuined  by  Mr.  liodwell: 

Q:— You  saiil  that  you  h(>ard  about  Shields  in  188(1.  what 
did  vol!  hear?      A. — I  heard  fliat  Sliields  was  a  good  hunter. 


PI 


[^^■F^t^W^BH 


'Mi  '' 


26H 

Q. — Aim!  yon  Nti.v  dial  oilier  IliiiifjH  lK•ill^::  equal,  llie  iiiaii 
Unit  covers  llie  iiionI  ;;ioniitl  will  p'l  llie  iiiokI  sealH?  A. — 
Thai  is  my  idea. 

</. — How  niiicli  linliler  is  a  eaiioe  I  lain  a  boat  in  weitjlil'.' 
A. — I  cannot  tell  yoii. 

{}. — It  is  considerably  linliler,  is  il?  A. — It  all  depends 
on  tlie  si/.e  of  the  canoe. 

Q. — How  do  llie  lines  of  a  canoe  conipape  with  those  of  u 
boat?      A.— They    are  a   lit  lie  dilferenl,  and   a    threat   deal 
10   Hharjier  forward. 

ii- — If  yon  had  a  siionjj  man  in  a  canoe,  wlio  was  accus- 
tomed to  handllii};  il,  as  you  had  in  the  boat,  would  li(>  ^o 
further  under  (U'dinary  circumstances  in  the  canoe  than  in  the 
boat?  .^. — I  think  .1  canoe  would  t,'o  faither  in  a  day  than  a 
boat  with  two  siootiiiK  (^ood  men  in  her. 

ii. — Suppose  you   had  a   canoe  ri^j«:ed   with   lowlocks    and 

oars  and  two  yood  men  in  the  canoe,  how  would  the  distance 

which  they  would  cover  in  a  day  compare  with.tlu'  distance 

which  a  boatpiillei-  and  a  steei-er  would  take  the  men  in  a 

2°   boat?      A. — In  .1  canoe  the  distance  wfuild  be  jireater. 

(.}. — Does  it  take  lonj;  to  skin  a  seal?  A. — Some  hiintei's 
<an  skin  a  seal  wvy  miickly.  II  would  tak«'  me  about  three 
or  four  minutes,  but  others  would  do  il  half  tlu>  time. 

ii. — I  do  not  know  whetlier  you  can  answer  this  (juestion  «>r 
not,  but  I  will  put  it  to  yon,  can  you  n'lvi'  us  any  idea  how 
Ions  .voii  iii'e  between  the  time  you  avt  one  seal  and  come  u]) 
up<in  another?  A.— -You  may  shoot  one  here  and  see  anoth- 
er about  one  or  two  hundred  yards  away. 

Q. — I  will  jtut  file  question  to  you  in  this  way.  As  a 
3°  rub'  do  yon  have  siinicient  interval  of  time  between  the  mo- 
ment you  (j«'t  •»"<■  ft'iil  ii'itl  come  u]i  upon  another,  to  eimblo 
yon  to  take  care  of  the  seals  you  have  in  tlu'  boat,  if  you 
want  to  skin  them  and  mi  them  out  of  the  way?  A. — Not 
always. 

Q. — llow  many  seals  could  you  carry  in  this  boat  of  yours 
without  skinnnin};?  A. — I  think  thirlytwo  brown  seals  is 
the  most  I  ever  had  in  the  boat  at  once,  that  is  without  be- 
in}?  skinned. 

Q. — You  say  your  catch  was  a  celebrated  catch  that  year? 
^     Now  what  i)art Of  it  was    a    celebrated    catch?      A.— The 
quantity. 

Q.— I  know,  but  you  have  }jiven  the  catch  on  the  coast  and 
the  catch  in  the  Sea,  and  which  of  them  was  the  celebrated 
catch?      A. — Tlu're  was  the  most  skins  in  tlu'  Sea. 

Q. — You  tiot  l,l(iS  skins  on  the  Alaska  coast?      A.— Yes. 

Q._What  about  that  catch?  A.— That  was  considered  a 
good  catch,  an  exceptionally  jjood  catch,  that  many  had 
never  be<'n  taken  there  before. 

Q._l)i,l  v,„i  often  talk  about,  or  hear  that  catch  talked 
about?      A. — Yes. 

Q._Can  you  say  generally  what  i»art  of  the  sea  you  were 
sealin};;  in  that  sear,  ran  you  point  it  on  the  chart?  A. — 
I  cannot  pive  it  to  you  corn-ctly,  only  just  what  I  was  told. 

Q._Oive  it  to  us  generally?      A.— between  '^."^0  and  Tm" 
north  latitude  and  ins"  to  10!>" 
always  under  tlie  impression  that 
longitude  we  w<'re  huntiiifi  in. 
stood,  on  board  Die  vessel,  to  the 
60       Q. — When  wen  yo>i  u]*  there? 
cd  the  Sea. 

Q. — .\nd  then  you   worked 
the  southward. 

Q. — Do  you  know  how  far  you  were  from  the  Pass  wlien 
you  started  for  lionu  ?  .\. — To  the  best  of  my  recolleclicm, 
il  lillle  after  daylight  in  the  UKU'iiing,  tlie  caplaiu  came  on 
deck.       The  wind  was  to  the  westward   and  he  told  me  to 


50 


:{0  west  longitude.       I  was 

that  was  the  latitude  and 

We  had  been   n]>,  1   under 

north  east  of  St.  Cieorge. 

A.— When  we  first  enter 

which  direction?       A.— To 


2()(J 

|iii(  tlic  wlicci  M|i  iiixl  Hi't  I  lie  iiiiiiiiNiiil  jiikI  I\('<-|i  Iut  nlV.       lie 


ivc 


III 


(•  t'oiirHc  wliirli  I   Idi'ut  I   niiw,  hut  Im'  Htiiil  to  nc(   IIu- 


io 


iniiiii  lo|iiiiiiKl  Ntji,v  Hiiii  jiiwl  tliiit  iiip;lil  we  Wfi'c  down  to  (lu! 
runs. 

y.— Wliat  kind  of  ,i  miilinn  hrcczc  ilid  voii  have  tlial  daj? 
A, — All  tile  wind  hIic  ronid  sla^^vi'  on  willi. 

I). — And  a  favoralilc  wind?       A. — ^'cs. 

Tlic  ('oniniiHHJoncr  on  the  jiart  of  the  Tnitcd  HtatcH: — 
WIm'I'c  ix  that  pawH,  Mi-.  |{»idw('ir.' 

Mr.  Itodwcll: — It  in  a  Hinall  paHH  to  tho  wfHtward  uf  Vam 


Seventy  two. 


The  ("onimissioner  on  the  i»art  of  Her  Majesty: — What  is 
the  name  of  the  ]iasK? 

Witness: — I  do  not  remember  the  name  of  the  pass. 

(i. — fan   von  j{ive  the  name  from  the 


My  Mr.   Hodwe 

chart?      A. — Vt  s,  there  is  the  i)ass  we  came  thronph,  so  I 
-"   was  t<dd.       That  is  the  next     pass     to     the     westward     of 
Seventy-Two. 

ii. — What  is  the  name  of  that  pass?  A. —  It  is  marked 
"Siiruam"  on  tiie  chart. 

<2. — Von  say  that  yon  sometimes  had  to  make  sail  on  pood 
sealint;  days  now  for  what  reason  would  yon  do  that?  A. — 
Well,  if  yon  did  not  think  that  there  were  any  seal  there,  and 
yon  had  a  breeze  you  would  make  sail  to  liunt  them  np. 
You  would  see  if  thei'e  was  any  seal  around  before  you  low- 
30  ered  your  boats. 

Q. — What  is  the  best  sealing  weather?  A. — I  prefer  ft 
calm  day  for  a  shot  gun. 

Q. — On  what  otlu'r  days  is  it  the  custom  to  ro  senling,  I 
nni  sjK'aking  of  course  of  the  year  ISSfi,  on  what  kind  of 
days  did  yon  go  out  sealing  in  that  year?  A. — When  yon 
are  in  among  seal  an  I  it  is  tit  to  lower  the  boats,  you  would 
go  out 

Q. — rxjilain  (hat  •!  little  more?  What  days  Avould  you 
consider  it  fit  to  lower  the  boat?  \  — When  you  are  not  in 
P  danger  of  being  ca])si/,ed. 

Q. — Then  yon  would  go  out  If  a  breeze  was  blowing?  A. — 
Yes  if  a  breeze  was  blowing,  you  would  go  out  sometimes 
with  reefed  sai's  on  the  boat. 

Q.— Would  you  go  out  in  the  fog?      A.— Sometimes. 

Tlie  Commissioner  on  the  i)art  of  Her  Majesty: — Would 
the  canoe  do  as  well  as  the  boat  for  that  ])nrpose? 

The  Witness: — Yes,  your  Honour  if  the  '-anoe  was  handled 
light  slu'  would  stand  as  much  as  tlie  boat. 

My  Mr.  Kodwell: — How  are  these  sealing  canoes  made  and 
wiiat  kind  are  tln-y?  A. — Well  as  far  as  I  know  they  are 
made  out  of  a  cedar  log. 

Q. —  I  mean  to  say,  in  what  way  <h>  they  ccmipare  with  a 
lioat.  Are  they  larger  than  the  ordinary  canoe?  A. — They 
do  not  use  very  large  canoi's  for  sealing.  Tliey  are  not  a 
large  class  of  c;inoes  that  they  use  for  sealing. 

(i. — Are  the  Indians  accustomed  to  go  out  to  sea  in  these 
(,o  canoes?     A. — They  ai<'. 

Q. —  Do  you  know  anything  alxnit  the  distance  they  will 
liavel  by  sea,  and  where  they  go  in  these  canoes?  A. — They 
travel  from  Kyo<iuol   to  \  iclcn-ia  in  canoes. 

ii. — Kyo(|not  is  on  the  west  coast?      A. — Yes. 

(i. — .\iid  it  is  jiretty  rough  sia,  is  it  not?  A. — Yes,  there  is 
liad  wealiier  at  times. 

<i. — And  \vi  the  Indians  come  around  all  the  way  in  their 
allocs?     A. — Yes. 


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(j. — How  far  out  t«>  mcii  will  (li«'.v  <;o  Htiai);lit  out  from  lain], 
do  ,voii  know  aiiytliiiiK  iiboiit  Miat?  A. — The  liiilians  told  inu 
tlu'iiiHclvcH  tliat  tlu>,v  litid  hi'cii  olT  '2i\  or  :<()  miles 

(i. — Ih>w  mufh  Iwam  linvi'  tlit»se  ••unoi'!!'?  A. — I  have  lu'ver 
iiU'aHured  tlu-m. 

(i. — Can  yon  jjive  U8  an  id»'a?  A. — I  HUppom'  ab«»ut  tliree 
and  a  half  foot. 

Q. — And  how  Ion;:;  are  tlic.v?  A. — <>v«>rhanK  and  all,  wmie 
of  them  would  be  alMtut  IT)  f«»et. 

(J. — Do  you  kn<»w  anything  about  the  a|i|»lianeeH  that  are 
ealled  Heal  bladders  that  are  used  in  eonneetion  with  theHe 
mnoeH.     A. — I  have  never  seen  them  UH«'d. 

Q. — You  have  UHually  taken  white  hunterH  and  Itoats,  have 
>'OH  not?     A. — Yes.  with  the  exception  of  on«'  year.  , 

The  examination  of  the  witness  elocu'd. 

Mr.  Peters: — There  was  n  witness  named  \ndrew  Laini;, 
10.  under  order  of  this  Conimisslon,  was  examined  b«'fore 
Mr.  Small.  1  propose  (o  jait  part  of  tliat  »'videnee  in  so  far  i\H 
it  relates  to  this  <'ase.  Tlie  part  of  the  «'videnee  which  re- 
lates to  this  case,  and  which  I  intend  to  ]iut  in  is  tht>  intro- 
ductory part.  viz..  tpiestions  «me,  two.  three,  four  and  five, 
and  the  ipiestions  from  5l\  to  00  inclusive.  The  (pic'stious  are 
numbered. 

The  introductory  part  is  as  follows: 

"1.  Q. — What  is  your  full  name?    A. — Andrew  D»>as  Lain^. 

'"2.  Q. — In  the  year  1SS7  were  you  en){ap;ed  on  board  the 
sehotmer  \V.  V.  Wayward?     A. — I  was. 

"II.  Q. — AVhat  was  your  p<>sition  on  board  the  vessel?  A. 
— I  was  mate,  trader  and  lnterpr«>t«'r. 

"4.  Q. — On  what  kind  of  a  voyage  did  the  "Say ward"  sail? 
A. — Hunting  seals. 

"5.  (i.— Were  you  in  HehriuR  Sea  that  year?      A.— Yes." 

Tlien  there  are  the  followini;  <|u«>slions  and  answ(>rs: 

"5.1.  How  lonfj  had  you  be«'n  sealing  befoio  1887?  A. — 
1880  was  the  tirst  year  1  w«'nt  into  Hehring  Sea,  but  I  had 
been  sealing;  on  Ihe  coast  from  1SM2. 

"54.  Q. — You  w«'nt  into  the  Sea  in  1SS(»  in  what  vessel? 
A.— The  "W.  P.  Sayward." 

"55.  Q. — In  what  capacity?      A. — .\s  mate. 

"5(i.  (i. — Did  you  keejt  a  diary  that  year*'  A. — Yes,  the 
same  book. 

"5<l.  (i. — What  entri«'s  have  you  in  that  book  n-sjieclinj? 
the  <'atch  for  that  vear?  A. — Tlie  number  we  caught  everv 
day  in  1886. 

"58  Q. — Did  you  keep  this  book  in  the  same  way  that  you 
d'd  I'l  18^7,  making  the  entri.s  from  diy  to  day?      A. — S'es. 

"(Counsel  for  Her  l^lajoty  otTeis  the  book  (o  be  nnirk«'d  as 
an  exhibit  in  the  case.  Tlie  book  is  marked  'Exhibit  A.R.S., 
Dxaminer." 

"58  1-2.  (J. — Now  will  you  look  at  tlie  book  and  state  the 
days  on  which  you  sealed  in  lleluing  Sea  in  188(5,  and  the 
number  of  seals  caught  each  day? 

"(Counsel  for  the  I'nited  States  enters  a  general  objection 
to  any  and  all  testimony  relating  to  the  catch  of  any  vessel 
in  Hehring  Sea,  t-xcejit  f<»r  (lie  year  in  which  the  vessel  was 
sei/.<'d  or  warn«>d,  and  before  flie  tlate  of  the  si'iziire  or 
warning.")  .\. — The  tlrst  seals  we  caught  in  188(»  was  on 
July  (i,  in  Hehring  S»a  we  got  11. 

".5!».  Q. — About  where  were  you  then?  A. — .Miout  thirty 
luih's  olT  the  .Meiitian  Islands. 

"(M».  ti. — In  what  direction  were  you  making?  .\.--\Ve 
wi're  going  (o  Ihe  wesiward.  On  (lie  7tli  we  got  'J;  on  (.lie 
Sth.  "i;  on  (he  iiHIi.  '.;  lllli.  10;  I'.Mh.  lit;  |:t(h.  4(1;  M(h.  II; 
15(h,  1;  ICth,  7l;17(h,  1(»7  18tli,  147;  2(Mh,  14;  21sl,  101 ;  2:!id, 


lO 


271 

7.H;  Ulth,  .«>;  l!<>lli,  M;  27tli  5;  2M(li,  IS;  2mh.  JM);  :{Oth,  ll';{; 
:{|Ht,  47;  AunuHt  1h1,  12J);  I'lid.  7(1;  .{id,  (W;  Titli,  «7;  (illi,  :!<>; 
vh.  7;  Jth,  V-;  KKli.  it,  Itli.  1^,  mil.  I;  J.Jrd,  (.4;  24th,  12, 
iii:ikiii){  15!Hi  in  Mi'liriii};  Son.  Addii^  1114  for  the  const 
catch  nitikcH  in  all  2.710. 

"(51.  Q. — What  I'iM'w  did  you  havo  that  ,voar?  What  class 
of  cit'w.  Indians  or  wliitt»  ni«'n?      A. — Principally  Indians. 

"(>2   il. — How  many  canoes?    A. — Kip:ht. 

"(»;{.  Q. — Didn't  y»)u  linvc  any  boats?  A. — One  boat,  the 
Itoat  that  is  aboard  the  schoon(>r  now,  the  stern  boat. 

"(i4.     Q. — Did  the  nftern  boat  go  out  every  day?      A. — No. 

"(S'l.  Q. — On  what  occasion  did  it  ifo  out?  A. — When  it 
didn't  have  anvthing  else  to  do? 

"(!(».  Q. — Who  w«'nt  out  in  the  stern  boat?  A. — Some- 
times I.  and  sometimes  the  captain. 

"(J7.  Q. — How  were  you  sealiiif;,  with  what  kind  of  ariiisr 
A. — 1tr«>acli  loading  shot  }i:uns.  The  Indians  used  n])ears  but 
we  used  guns  in  the  boats.  Th«'  Indians  did  not  Iwlieve  ip 
jiuiis  in  those  days." 

Mr.  Peters: — That  is  all  the  evidence  of  Mr.  Lning  that  we 
deem  to  be  pertinent  to  the  case. 

The  Cominissloner  on  the  part  of  the  UnitiKi  States: — Have 
you  deterniined  when  this  vessel,  the  "Carolena,"  was  cap- 
lured. 

.^i:-.  Peters: — I  understood  it  was  hall  past  seven  o'.j'ock 
lit  (he  mornliif;. 

The  ('ommissioner  on  tlu'  part  of  the  United  States: — This 
siiys  half-past  seven  in  the  evening  of  An$;ust  Hrd. 

Mr.  Peters: — My  attention  has  lH>en  called  to  that.  Proba- 
bly I  am  wrong,  but  I  will  enquire  into  it  and  fix  !l  al!  right. 

The  Coinniissi«mer  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  Slati's: — I 
would  bt  glad  If  counsel  could  give  me  the  catch  up  to  and 
including  the  first  day  of  August. 

Mr.  P»'ters: — We  will  give  you  that  in  regard  to  each  vi'sscl. 
40"'  "li^o  hand  in  the  little  book  referred  to  in  Mr.  Laing's  evi- 
dence. 


10 


SO 


60 


Mr.  Warren: — We  desire  to  put  in,  in  the  evidence  in  this 
case,  the  following  from  the  evidence  of  the  witness  Luing: 

"124,  y.  You  say  you  went  into  the  Sen  in  188G?  A.— 
Yes. 

"12.').     Q. — You  took  your  last  seals  .\ugust  24?      A. — Yes. 

"12(».  (i.— And  then  you  left  for  Victoria?      A.— Yes. 

"221.  ().— Did  you  olttiiin  your  half  of  the  profits?  A.— I 
have  never  got  it. 

"222.  (.1. — l)id  you  make  any  profits  that  year?  A. — I  do 
1  of  know  whether  we  made  any  or  not.  When  I  would  ask 
Mr.  Warren  for  a  statement  he  would  sjiy,  I  have  not  got  any 
returns  yet." 

Tlien  (his  further  part  of  (he  cross-examination: 

"14.">.  Q. — You  state  that  you  had  170  or  ISO  wals  when  you 
were  K<'izrd?  A. — Xo.  sir,  I7S  (akeii  in  Itehring  sea,  but  we 
liiid  4SI  on  board  when  (he  cutter  to«»k  us. 

"I4(i.  H. — Didn't  you  make  an  aflidavit  at  one  time  that  you 
had  not  taken  any  seals  in  Itehring  sea?     A. — I  did. 

"147.  (J. — And  now  you  say  you  took  170  or  ISO?    A. — Yes. 

"14S.  il. — Why  is  this  change?  A. — I  thought  it  was  no 
use  f(»r  me  to  stick  ou(  and  s.iy  we  didn't  take  them. 

"140.  i^. — Then  when  you  made  your  aftidavK  it  was  not 
(rue?     .\.— It  wasn't  true. 

"150.  Did  you  know  it  wasn't  true  when  vou  made  It?  A. 
-1  did. 


ppi 


Pipffip 


!!i 


mI'Ii  .    I 


272 

"151.  y. — You  Hwoiv  to  it?  A.— I  don't  know  wlu'tlwr  we 
Mwoiv  to  It  or  not? 

"152.  (i. — IHdn't  ,vou  niak«'  an  atfldavlt  down  lu'iv  and 
8wi>ar  to  it?    A. — I'wouldu't  bo  positive  wlio  it  waH  iH'for*'. 

"15.1.  (i.— lU'foie  Mr.  Hfl.vt'a?    A.— I  wouldn't  Iw  wrtain.' 

Mr.  IVters: — 1  have  handed  iu  the  little  book  referred  t«»  in 
the  evidence. 

Mr.  I^inHin};: — There  was  an  obje«'tion  made  to  that  book 
10  at  the  time  it  was  presented. 

Mr.  IVters: — The  objection  was  to  the  charncter  of  the 
evidence  and  not  to  the  b<M>k  itself. 

Mr.  Wnrren: — That  is  .ifjiit,  tlu're  was  no  objection  t«)  the 
book  itself,  but  to  the  kind  of  evidence  in  the  book. 

The  Conimissiont^r  on  tlie  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — What 
use  is  that  book,  Mr.  Peters? 

Mr.  Petei's: — Should  there  be  any  (piestion  of  it,  it  will  be 
2°  8«HMi  from  this  book  that  the  entries  wt're  made  from  time  to 
time  and  at  the  time. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  j»art  of  the  United  States: — la 
there  any  question  as  to  tliat? 

Mr.  Peters: — Then?  has  b«H>n  a  question  raised  as  to 
whether  this  witness  in  certain  particulars  is  credible  or  not. 
In  Mr.  Laing's  cross-examination  it  is  brought  out  that  Mr. 
LaiuK  made  an  affidavit  wliicli  he  admits  was  not  correct. 

._    I  simplv  put  that  book  in  to  show  that  the  entries  were  made 

^     by  him  in  that  book  in  ISXfi. 

The  Commissiimer  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Is 
theiv  anv  question,  Mr.  Warren,  tiiat  tlie  book  itself  is  not 
autluntli? 

Mr.  Warren: — I  raise  no  question  as  to  tlie  book  itself,  but 
only  as  to  tlu'  credibility  of  the  witness. 

Mr.  Peters: — Vov  that  reason  I  want  the  book  to  pi  in  so 
that  the  ('ommitisioners  may  see  from  its  a]i|M>arniice  that  the 
'^'^  entries  are  authenti*-.     The  witness  himself  is     unable     to 
c«ime  here. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  JIajesty: — If  there  is 
any  question  about  tlu'  book  it  can  t;o  in  for  wliat  it  is  worth. 
It  may  be  tiled,  but  it  need  not  be  jirinted  as  an  exhibit. 

Mr.  Petere: — Tlie  book  iu'«'d  not  be  jirinted. 

Tlu'  Commissioner  on  tlie  jiart  of  the  United  States: — M,v 
50  learned  confrere  has  stated  the  rule  with  repird  to  this.  These 
books  are  prtMluced  to  refresh  llie  memory  of  the  witness. 
The  party  producing;  them  cannot  put  them  in,  but  if  there 
is  anytliiiifr  in  them  <-ontradictiii);  the  witness  tlu'y  may  be 
filed  by  the  otiier  jiarty  discrediting;  the  book.  I  did  not 
hear  any  question  as  to  autlienticity  of  this  book  and  so  I 
queried  as  to  wlietluT  it  was  necessary  it  slioiild  lio  in  or  not. 


60 


Mr.  Peters: — It  is  imply  tiled  for  refen'uce. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — If  it  k""'** 
into  the  custody  of  the  secretary  it  must  be  marked  as  an 
exhibit.     It  mi|;lit  be  put  in  but  not  printed. 

Hook  marked  P^xhibit  1H,  (i.  It.,  Claim  No.  1. 

Mr.  IMckinsoii: — May  il  please  the  (  ommissioners,  your 
Honours  admitted  a  jiaraKraph  or  two  from  the  United  States 
case  as  an  admission  of  the  I'nited  States,  showing  lliat  seals 


273 


\v«'i-t'  ill  II  rci'tiiili  )ilii«-<'  ill  llic  M«>ii  :iii<l  i-oiild  !)«>  n'litlil.v  liiiiit- 
«•(!.  I  deHin>  tlu-wfoiv  to  rt-ad  a  )ioHi(>n  of  tlie  coiiti-xt  from 
till'  Aiiu-riran  cnw. 

Tlw  ('«»iiiiiiiKMlon«'i'  on  llu'  pari  of  llu'  I'liid'd  Slatt'H: — Ih 
llim*  any  oliji><-tion? 

Mr.  IVttTs: — Should  not  tliat  roiiic  in  iih  a  |iart  «tf  your  own 

(lIMt'? 

lo  Mr.  IMfkinRon: — I  do  not  tliink  tlitiv  ran  1m'  any  oltj«'rti«»n. 
You  raniiot  i|notf  a  poHi«)n  of  a  dornnuMit  witlxnit  putting  in 
lli<>  wlioic  iH-ariiiK  on  tlw  portion  yon  read.  I  do  not  )iro- 
pom>  to  put  in  tlif  wliol(>  .Vnu-riran  «-aH(>,  but  I  will  put  in  an 
f.\ti'aft  or  two  from  It. 

Mr.  IN'tt'i-H: — TIu'IV  is  no  obji'rtioii. 

Mr.   DifliinHon: — Tlu-r«'  niniutt    v«>ry  w«'ll   Im>.     Iti'nriiiK  in 
mind  that  th>>  tcMtimony  admittod  wiih  with  r«'f«'r«'n«'(>  to  tlio 
prohablo  catch  I   read  from  )hikch  1<HI  and  101,  cane  (»f  tiw 
20   i'ni.cd  Htatcs,  vol.  'J: 

"Thew  arc  tw<»  wayH  in  which  a  seal  may  be  dcHti-oytnl  by 
lliiH  method  of  hunting  witlumt  bcini;  Hccnrcd;  one  Ih  by 
woiindint;  it  so  that,  tliouKh  it  tttill  rctainH  vitality  cnoni;li 
to  cHcapc  from  the  hunt«>r,  it  Hnb8«M|Ucntly  dies  from  itH  in- 
jiiricH;  the  other  Im  by  the  Hinking  <>f  the  8eal,  killed  outright, 
before  the  boat  can  be  brou;;ht  aloiii^xide  and  the  carcami 
Hcized  by  the  hunter." 


30 


40 


Tlien  on  pa}<;e  1!U  of  the  t<aine  volume: 


"TliiH  Ih  fK'lf-evident  when  the  fact  Ih  taken  into  consider- 
ati<m  that  the  lioat  Ih  in  almoHt  couHtant  motion,  and  the 
mark  ia  the  small  head  of  a  seal,  anions  the  waves,  thirty, 
forty,  fifty,  or,  when  n  riHe  is  used,  even  a  liundrtHl  yards  from 
the  hunter.  Four  other  conditions  also  mmlify  tliis  possi- 
bility «»f  h)8s;  first,  tlie  state  of  the  weather,  for  if  the  water 
is  roiifrh  the  boat  and  the  seal  having;  more  motion  the  ]M>r- 
ceiitaKc  of  those  killed  or  stunned  by  the  shot  is  much  less 
Hum  when  the  sen  is  smm>th;  second,  the  condition  of  the  seal 
shot  at,  f<»r  if  br<' chint;.  ^I'*'  ^Ix'^  \n'\nn  at  the  body  is  not 
liable  to  paralyze  the  animal,  tliouuh  it  may  be  as  fatal  as 
when  the  seal  is  ash^'p  im  the  water  with  only  a  portion  of 
its  liead  exposed  as  a  mark;  third,  the  skill  of  the 
Iinut«>r  is  also  to  be  considered;  and,  fourtli,  wheth- 
er or  not  the  seals  are  wild  and  hard  to  approach, 
in  wliich  case  the  hunter  is  from  necessity  com]H'lled 
to  tire  at  lon^  ranp'.  The  Indian  hunters.  with 
their  spears,  who  are  forced  to  ap|)roach  miwh  nearer  tlie 
P'line  than  a  white  hunter  armed  with  a  riHe  or  shotKiiu, 
50  s|icak  iiarticiilarly  of  the  increased  timidity  of  tlie  seals  siin'e 
tireariiis  have  been  used  in  taking  tliein.  They  also  state  that 
many  seals  taken  by  them  liave  shot  imbedded  in  their  bod- 
ies, and  some  are  badly  wounded.  This,  besides  beinjj  evi- 
dence of  the  p'eat  number  wounded  and  lost,  naturally  tends 
to  make  the  suils  fearful  of  the  approach  of  men.  \ot  only 
has  the  increase  in  the  number  of  white  hunters  in  the  las' 
few  y«'ars  made  the  seals  much  wilder  than  bef«»re  firearms 
were  used,  but  it  has  also  added  largely  to  the  number  of  in- 
fxpcrieiiced  liunters  eiiKa.i^ed  in  sealing." 

Go 

Tlieii  at  the  top  of  pa^e  VM  it  says  as  foll(»ws: 

"Itesides  tliose  lost  by  woundiiif;.  in  many  cases,  others  kill- 
ed oiitri}!;ht  are  not  tak«'n,  because  the  specific  jjravity  of  tlie 
seal  lN>iiiK  greater  than  water  it  sinks  before  it  can  be  se- 
<  nred.  In  order  to  save  as  many  of  the  sinkiuK  seals  as  in 
poHsiltle.  each  boat  t-arries  a  piiT.  with  a  handle  from  four 
lo  si.\  feet   Innij.  with   wliich   lo  p;rapple  the  carcass,  if  the 

IH 


"  I 


Vim 


274 


10 


20 


|H>iiit  wlii'i-c  it  Hiiiik  run  Ih>  i-<>ii«-h«Ml  in  time  t«>  do  ><•>.  Of 
coiirHc  in  wnirinK  ii  HinJ^ini;  m'al  ninrli  <h'|M'ndH  on  tlu>  ihn- 
tiUK-c  from  wliirli  tlu'  hciiI  wiih  Nliot,  tli«>  rondilion  of  tlio 
wjiti'i*.  wIu'IIht  ro«nli  or  mnootli,  nnd  wIiHImt  or  not  dnrlvcn- 
«>d  b.v  t]i4>  blood  of  tli(>  animal,  an  alwi  tlic  Hiiill  of  tlio  liuntor 
in  niai-liinK  witli  liis  <>,v<>  tli«*  place  wIumv  tlio  Ht>al  mink.  It 
ran.  tlu'rt'fon',  h<>  scon  that  the  ranp'  of  iioHHibIt'  and  pi-ob- 
abl«>  loHH  in  t-aHc  tlu'  M'al  Ih  killt'd  outriKl>t  i>*  <-*'i-tainl,v  lar^o, 
tlion);h  not  so  K>'*'iit  an  when  tli(>  wal  Ih  wonndtHl. 

"rndci-  tilt'  rirrunitrtan«H'H,  it  is  nioHt  dillit-nlt  to  tix  tlu*  ac- 
tual number  of  HealM  d«'Htro.v«'d  and  n»»t  Hecui'ed  b.v  the  Inin- 
tei-H  iiwinK  tirearma;  but  it  iw  a  conwrvadve  cHtiniate  to  Bay 
that  Hiich  liunterH  los«'  at  leant  two  out  of  every  three  sealH 
whot  by  them." 

I  And  on  lMii>;e  1!H>   the  following: 

"When  the  CHtimate.  thei-efore.  in  placed  at  »ixty-Mix  nealH 
unsecured  out  of  every  hnndn'd  killed  with  flroarniH,  the  j>r«»l>- 
ability  Ih  that  tlu-  jtercentap'  loHt  \h  even  nuu*e.  Certainly 
tliiH  perct'ntap'  is  couHtantly  increaHin};,  fiu-  the  rapid 
fjrowth  of  the  Healing  tl«'et  in  the  last  two  y«'ar8  has  incn-ased 
the  number  of  unskilled  liunterH,  and  the  couHtant  huntinu  of 
the  herd  has  made  the  seals  wilder  each  year  than  the  year 
Itefore." 

That  is  all  I  desire  to  n-ad  until  your  Honours  have  decid- 
ed as  to  the  udmissibilitv  of  these  aflidnvits. 


30 


40 


mIMi      i 


50 


60 


witness  on  the  part  of 


X'ictor  Jacobson  was  called  as 
(ii-eat  Kritain  and  duly  sworn. 

Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Peters. 

Q. — Mr.  <)acob8«)ii,  where  do  you  live?     A. — In  Victoria. 

i}. — Wiiat  is  your  occui)ation?  A. — I  am  a  master  mariner 
and  scaler. 

<i. — How  Ion;;  have  you  be«'n  enpajjed  in  that  business? 
.\. — I  have  had  sealin<;  vessels  of  iny  own  since  1MS4  and  I 
was  two  years  up  on  the  coast  in  t'apt.  Spring's  scliooners, 
the  ".Mary  p:ilen"  and  the  "Favorite"  in  that  time. 

i). — And  you  have  been  eiiKiit?*'*!  •"  sealing  up  to  the  pres- 
«'Ut  lime?     .\. — ^'es. 

if. — .\nd  have  von  be«'n  interested  in  vessels?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

<i. — Anil  you  have  a  pretty  ^ood  knowledge  of  senling  mat- 
l«'rs?     A. — Well,  about  as  fjood  as  any  one  in  N'ictorin. 

ii. — .\nd  you  have  been  very  succ(>ssful,  I  beli<'ve,  in  seal- 
ing? A. — I  am  sealing  still  myself  every  year  in  the  small 
boats  from  the  vessel. 

(i. — You  are  a  liunter  yourself?    A. — Yes. 

0. — In  the  y<'ar  IHStJ  I  believe  you  were  in  the  Kehrini,'^ 
Kea?     .\. — No,  sir. 

(i.— What  shir  did  von  own  in  ISWS?  A.— The  "Mountain 
Chief." 

Q. — She  was  not  in  the  ItehriuK  sea  that  year?     A. — No. 

*}. — Was  she  en^'a^ed  in  t-ealiiiK  that  year?  A. — Yes,  on 
the  coast. 

ii. — In  1SS7  did  you  ro  into  •({ehriiif;  sea?     A. — Yes,  sir. 
the  coast. 

ii. — In  what  vessel?     A. — In  the  ".Mountain  Chief." 

ii. — Do  you  remember  what  her  tonnage  was?  A. — About 
L':t  terns. 

ii. — How  many  boats  or  canoes  did  she  carry?  A. — Four 
canoes  and  my  own  caiiot>. 

ii. — Wiiite  huntirs  or  Indians?     A. — Indiiins. 

ii. — So  that  your  whole  Kealin<;  out  tit  consisted  »>f  four 
canoes?    .\. — Four  regular  sealiii);  cano«>s. 


lO 


AO 


;o 


60 


275 

Q. — V(Mi  HoiiM-tiiiK'M  wont  out  ill  yoiii-  own  ctinoe?    A. — 

Yl'H. 

(i.-Hiit  not  lOKularly?    A.— No. 

(i. — Yon  cnrrinl  no  hojit?     A. — No. 

ti. — Ciui  you  tt'll  iiif  wln'tluT  ,vou  iirnd  f;iiiiM  or  H|M')irH7  A. 
— Th«'  IntliiiiiH  iinimI  H|M-iirM,  hut  I  iiHcd  a  ^un  in^Mclf. 

(j. — Clin  ,vou  t«>ll  iiio  wluit  tinu'  you  went  into  tlic  liHirinp; 
M'ji?    A. — About  till'  l;iHt  dii.VH  of  .Inly. 

(i.— Ilavo  you  a  log  or  anytliiii^'  like  that  to  n\vv  tin*  in- 
roiiiialion.     A. — No. 

il. — Vou  mil  only  xiM-ali  from  nu-inory?    .\. — Tlial  in  all. 

(i. — Can  you  tell  nn*  wlu-n  you  loft  tlu*  Itt'liriiif;  Soa?  A. — 
\V«'  loft  Honuwhoi'o  liotwoon  llio  14lh  and  ITtli  of  .Kii^UHt. 

ii. — Why  did  yoii  loavo  ko  oarly?  .\. — Woll  wo  Haw  Iho 
ciillor  ooining  inUt  Un-  HohrinK  Hon  and  of  ooui-ho  wo  got 
friphfonod.  I  thoui^ht  that  tiioro  would  ho  a  Hoizuro  UKaiii 
on  aorount  of  my  knowing  tlia(  a  soi/.uro  took  placo  tlio  yoar 
hoforo.  80  wo  lowcrod  all  tho  miiIIh  down  and  tho  man  «»f 
war  «'amo  lu-ottv  oIoho  hy  uh.  finir  or  (Ivo  miloH,  I  think,  hut 
liodid  not  Hoo  uh.  Tho  noxt  mornin}:  I  Raw  a  liltio  m-hoonor 
callod  tho  Triumith  comintr  in  and  a  man  of  war  hoardod  lior. 
Ilo  fold  mo  that  ho  had  juHt  oomo  from  Sitka.  1  had  thon 
iihout  700  soalH  and  sot  frijihtonod  and  wont  riRlit  «mt. 

Q. — Tho  roanoii  you  wont  out  wan  that  you  hoard  of  tho 
Hol7.uro  that  had  takon  plaoo  in  1887?      \. — Yos. 

Q. — And  that  wizuro  was  ('apt.  Warrou's  ship?  A. — 
Yos. 

Q. — Toll  mo  how  many  wals  you  got  in  Bohrin);  Koa  in  1887. 
A. — Woll,  wo  had  Homothint;  ovoi'  7(10 — I  do  not  roniomhor. 

Q. — Y'oii  cannot  t«'ll  tho  oxaot  amount?      A. — No. 

i}. — Aftor  you  pot  int«)  tho  Itohrinp  80a  do  you  r«'momh«'r 
how  lonp  it  waH  hoforo  you  hopan  m-alinp  that  yoar?  A. — 
.\h  far  an  I  romomh(>r  wo  Honlod  thoro  tho  vory  fli'Bt  day. 
I  Hoalod  at  tho  mouth  of  tho  Pann  hoforo  I  pot  in  and  I  Hoalod 
inmdo  of  tho  pann.  Tho  woathor  happonod  to  pormit  mo  to 
po  to  work  just  as  soon  as  wo  pot  to  tho.st'a.  Wo  start od 
lipht  away. 

(}. — Y'ou  oniinot  t«'ll  mo  wluMi  you  pot  into  tho  Soa?  A. — 
No.  not  for  oortain,  hul  it  was  tho  last  day**  »f  .Inly. 

(2. — So  that  ycHi  woro  only  in  tho  Soa  from  tho  last  days  of 
.Inly  until  th«'  17(h  of  Aupusf?     A. — Y'os,  ahout  that. 

Q. — .\nd  durinp  thai  (imo  <-ould  you  fish  «'Vory  day?  A. — 
No.  wo  didn't  pot  to  iishinp  ov«'ry  day. 

Q. — Wiis  tho  wosithor  siiitahh'  to  fish  «'vory  day?      A. — N«». 

Q. — Is  it  ovor  suitahio  to  fish  ov««ry  day  in  Anpnst  in  your 
oxporionco?      A  — I  novor  saw  it. 

Q. — What  sort  of  woathor  ran  you  flsh  in?  A. — W»'  pot 
tho  most  in  roal  lino  calm  woathor.  thon  wo  po  out  with  ov«'ry 
Itoat,  and  it  is  ablo  to  stand  tho  wind  and  tho  woathor.  In 
fact  whcnovor  wo  aro  ahio  to  po  in  a  soalinp  hoat  w«'  launch 
tlioni.  I  have  hoon  out  in  a  hoat  when  thoro  has  hwu  a 
palo  of  tvind  and  runninp  iindor  douhio  roof  sails. 

Q. — Do  you  pot  sonls  in  that  woathor?  A. — Wo  pot  soals 
wlu'iiovor  wo  can  pot  out  nftiT  tlioin. 

Q. — What  is  tho  worst  woathor  for  catchinp  soals?  A. — 
Tho  worst  woathor  is  rain  and  fop  and  wind. 

Q. — Do  you  romondior  any  particular  days  catch  that  y»»u 
inado  in  tho  month  of  Aupu'st,  1887?      A.— No. 

Q. — You  do  not  romomhor  tho  nuinhor  of  soals  you  cauplit 
iiiiy  day?      A.— No. 

Q. — Do  you  roniomhor  tho  larpost  day's  catch?  A. — I  ro- 
nuMiihor  that  tho  first  day  wo  pot  in  wo  had  97  or  soniothinp, 
lipht  away.  At  that  liiiio  I  was  a  now  h«'pinnor  and  so  I 
did  not  pot  many,  hut  whon  I  cain»>  ahout  throo  o'clock  that 
afternoon  some  of  my  Indians  had  ho<Mi  in  with  18  sonls  and 
soino  with  2.1  so.'ils  and  so  on,  ,tnd  tlioy  woro  poinp  out  apain 
for  anolhor  load. 


hi 


■;   i 


e 


30 


40 


HiMMijMl 


50 


Co 


276 

Mr.  nickiuHuu: — Thai  wuh  in  .l\i\y,  1  hii|)|m>h«'? 
wuH  out-  of  the  hint  (Iii.vk  of  July  about. 

By  Mr.  IVters: 


A.— That 


Yt'u. 


-That  iM  till'  firHt  day  you  HonhHl  in  lit'hriUK  ^ca?      A. — 


Q.— -.Vnd  that  wuh  alM)ut  tli«'  t-iid  of  July  uh  far  as  you  «-au 
rtMiu'iulH'r?  .\.— Of  coHrMc  I  «l«>  not  r«*nM'nib«'r  I'xartly  whcth- 
<'r  it  wan  tht-  hint  day  of  July  or  the  firHt  of  .\UKUHt. 
10       ij.— lt<'Hid«R  fiHhin);  in  Itfliriuf;  Hca  in  1887  did  you  tiHli  out 
Hidi'  of  ItohriuK  f**'a?      A. — V«'h.  sir. 

Q. — In  tin*  winit'  vt'Hwl?      A. — Y«'8. 

(j. — With  tlic  sanit'  <'r«'w?  A. — No,  not  with  tli«'  bjiuio 
trfw.  but  with  Honi«>  of  tlicni. 

Q. — With  till'  Hanu'  nunilx  r  of  <anot>H?  .\. —  I  had  nior»' 
nino4>H  on  the  (oaHt. 

Q. — How  many  ranocH  <lid  you  hav<>  on  tlu'  coant?  A. — I 
luid  from  S  to  12  on  iln'  "oast. 

(J. — Indians?      A. — Y«'h  IndiauH. 
20       Q. — <'an  you  toll  nn'  wliat  was  your  ctrnKt  «'at«*h  in  that 
yi-ar?  .\. — rtcmu'thinK  b«>tw«'«'«  ')(l<»  and  (»(I0,  about  fidO. 

Q. — And  tiuit  «-at<-li  and  tlu*  700  you  mt^ntioncd  uh  Ix-ini; 
«-au}rht  in  Kchrinf;  8«-a.  that  would  rt'prcHcnt  your  wliol«>  ratrh 
for  that  y«'ar?    A. — Y«»8. 

Q. — You  di'wrlbcd  the  trip  you  laid  in  1887  and  tlu'  num- 
Ikt  of  wala  you  rau^riit?     A. — Yen,  sir. 

Q. — AYould  you  t«*ll  uh  jj«'nerally  Hpi'ai<iu|!,  witliout  K<>inK 
into  partirulnrs,  how  did  that  turn  out  'uh  to  (li«>  profit  you 
inadt*  that  y«*ar — juHt  jfiv**  it  in  r»»und  fit?"ri'8?  A. — I>o  you 
nit'an  th»'  wa  and  th«'  const  catch  too? 

Q. — Y«*8.  A. — I  think  as  far  as  I  can  n'mcmlu'r,  I  madi'  b,'- 
tw«>4-n  14.000  and  |5,000. 

Q.— That  is  net  profit?     A.— Yes. 

y. — To  whom  did  you  sell  your  sealskins  in  1887?  .\. — The 
first  lot  I  ship|H>d  was  sold  by  a  man  called  McLapin. 

Q. — He  shipped  them  to  London  for  you.     A. — S'»'s. 

<i. — \Yhat  did  th«>y  realize?  A. — Tliey  realiKcd  lietwecn 
eiuht  and  nine  dollars  a  skin. 

(2. — \Yonld  that  first  lot  be  what  you  called  your  coast 
catch?     A.— The  coast  catch. 

Q. — \Yhnt  did  you  d«>  with  your  Hehrinf;  sea  catch?  A. — 
I  sold  them  to'  Mr.  Davis  or  to  M4»ss,  I  do  not  wmember  whicli 
of  the  two. 

Q. — What  'Jid  you  realize  for  them?  A. — That  I  cannot  re- 
member, but  it  was  somewher'  between  six  and  seven  dollars 
for  the  Mehring  sea  sealv. 

Q. — Y«tu  have  no  exact  statement  of  that?    A. — No. 

Cross examinati<m  by  M".  Lansing. 

y. — In  speakiu);  of  your  itidflts,  liow  mucii  did  you  receive 
f«»r  vour  skins  in  1887?  A. — Well,  I  received  between  eijfiit 
and  nine  dollars  for  the  coas^  catch. 

H — What  was  the  total  amount  y«»u  received  for  youi'  skins 
that  season?  A. — I  do  not  remember  that.  I  do  not  reiiiem- 
lier  for  certain  how  many  seals  I  had  as  to  nunil)er. 

Q. — What  did  .»our  sup|»lieH  c()nsi^'t  of?  A. — They  c(msisf- 
«'d  of  very  little.       I  nuike  it  from  |80  to  flOO  f(»r  the  coast. 

Q. — How  much  was  your  Kujiplv  bill  for  the  Kelirin.4  sea? 
A.— From  ».*«00  to  ?400. 

(i- — That  inclucKd  your  provisions,  your  ammuniMon  and 
all  the  incidental  supplies  c(mnected  with  the  sealini;  «»utfit 
for  the  voyage?  A. — I  only  had  one  ^un  at  that  lime,  you 
niuh'rstand,  and  a  kej?  of  powder  and  a  Mask  of  rille  powder, 
that  is  all  I  had  that  year. 

<».— I»id  that  include  ali  your  supplies  all  through  for  the 
entire  year?     .\. — Yes,  that  is  in  my  case. 

(i.— U  cost  you  between  |:tMO  and  fSOO  for  the  sunidies  fi»|' 
the  year?    A.— Yes. 


»T7 


V       r  I  " 


10 


20 


30 


40 


r^ 


(j. — How  iiuiii.v  HnilH  dill  ,voii  take  Unit  .v«*Hr.  raptiiin?  A. 
-Do  .von  iiiniii  alto)r«'nuM'?      A. — Yoh. 

<).— Well.  I  liiid  HoiiiftliiiiK  lik«'  (HHI  on  tli<>  rouHt  and  7(H>  In 
I  he  Hca. 

il. — IHd  .von  r«>|>nrt  thoBo  at  tin*  ruHtoni  Honw  Iu'H'?  A. — 
No. 

H. — IH«1  voii  ^^\\•^'  a  Htatonii-nt  to  tin*  Finlicrv  lnH|KM'tor  an 
to  how  nian.v  ,vou  took?    A. — No. 

<j. — I  read  from  tin*  It«'|Mtrt  of  Fislu'rit'H,  raiuidii.  iss7,  at 
!ia«»'  IMS: 

"(iutnian  and  Fnink,  owniTH,  "Monntain  Cliit'f,"  40  tonH.  I 
lioat.  ((  «-ano«>H.  17  men,  nnnihcr  of  walM  from  roaHt  of  H.  ('. 
and  (M'«>Kon  niNI,  valut*  |:t.r)tNI;  nnnilxT  of  himiIh  from  It  ■lirin^ 
K<a  tiH'2,  value  94.774;  total  nunibi'r  of  nkluH,  1.182,  total  valu«- 
!jiH.:i74." 

1h  that  a  «-orr«'ft  Htatoniont?    A. — No. 

(|. — WluT*'  do  tlu'.v  >{«'t  tln'w  flfrin'<>K?  A. — That  Ih  )(u<'Bh 
work.  Outnian  an<l  Fnink  hav<>  n«>r<'r  in  their  IIvch  iH'en  the 
owner  of  the  ".Mountain  Cliief."  I  wuh  the  tirKt  own«'r  after 
tse  ^iw::Hh  hiiilt  her,  and  I  ov^ncd  her  until  1  Hold  her  baek  to 
the  KiwaMh  apiin. 

il. — l>o  ,vou  think  (hut  remark  applieH  to  all  tlie  ealeulalioni^ 
in  (he  reportH  for  lMS(i  and  1SS7 — do  you  think  the.v  are  );ueHH 
work?  A. — Ah  far  an  I  know.  At  that  time  the  CuHtoniH 
llouHe  had  nothing  to  do  with  our  huHineHH  at  all  uh  far  nn 
latching  KealH  Ih  eon<-erned.  We  handh>d  no  IxxikH.  and  we 
kept  no  account  for  the  (MiHtoin  Iloum-  olticer,  or  anythinju;  of 
that  kind.  We  Niniply  entennl  and  cleared  and  we  could 
(■at<-h  an  many  Healn  and  «-atch  them  wherever  we  liked. 

Q. — Then  if  y<tu  were  Hlutwn  a  table  made  up  fr«»ni  the  re- 
port of  tlie  FiHherieH  ('omniiHHi<iner  on  which  the  aver 
iiije  catch  of  each  veHHcl  wan  lianed,  would  you  iH'lieve  it  to  Im' 
correct?  A. — Well,  uh  regards  other  canen  of  courw,  the  ve.s- 
hcIm  that  went  into  the  IniHineHH  and  kept  bookH  might  have 
niven  the  returiu). 

Q.—l  ank  you  about  the  yearn  l.S8«  and  1887?  A.— Well, 
they  niiKht  have  been  kept  by  the  captainu. 

(i. — Would  y<»u  iM'lieve  th«'He  tiKures?  A. — I  miKlit  believe 
them  in  Home  caneH,  there  might  be  captaiuH  that  kept  rec- 
ordn  of  the  HealH  they  caught  in  the  log  biMikH,  but  I  did  not. 

(i. — On  what  day  did  you  enter  the  Mehring  wa  that  year? 
.\. — Some  of  (he  lant  dayn  in  .luly,  but  I  cannot  Hay  the  day. 

(i. — What  vtHselH  did  you  Hpeak  in  the  nea?  A. — I  think  I 
Hpoke  the  Sylvia  Handy. 

ii. — On  wliat  day?  A. — I  cannot  say  that.  I  almt  npoke 
the  little  "Triumidi." 

Q. — Wliat  do  you  mean  by  the  little  "Triumph"?  A.-- 
Well,  Hlie  wan  a  huuiII  Hchooner  of  about  14  or  ITi  tonn. 

(j. — Ih  that  the  boat  that  belonged  to  Oeorge  HurnH  in 
tliene  years?  A. — Y«h.  1  <-annot  ntate  t<»  a  certainty  if  I 
saw  any  other  or  not.  I  wan  looking  for  Hchoimern  becaune  I 
got  Hhort  <»f  wilt  and  one  thing  or  another. 

Q. — That  iB  after  you  had  Imh'ii  in  the  Sea  sometime?  A. — 
Xo.  tlie  fli-Ht  part  of  it. 

Q. — How  long  had  you  been  in  the  Sen  when  you  spoke  to 
(he  Triumph.  A. — Well  1  had  b«*en  in  the  Sea  from  the  last 
day  of  July  until  abtiut  the  14th  of  August  when  I  siHtke  her. 

Q. — You  say  vou  spoke  her  about  the  14th  of  AuguBt?  A. 
— Y.'s. 

Q. — t'aptain,  >oh  have  a  claim  b«>fore  this  commission?  A. 
I  have. 

Q.— For  the  venr  l.s8ft?      A.— Yes. 

Q.— For  whar  vessel?      A.— For  the  "Minnie?" 

Q.— What  is  the  amount  of  that  claim?  A.— ♦22,0(10,  I 
(hink? 

Q. — .Vnd  the  principal  |>nrt  of  that  claim  is  made  np  for 
what.      \, — The  same  as  the  rest  of  the  claims. 


'     i-'J 


^i:  ill 

it 


,  1^ 


'4lMi 


20 


30 


40 


60 


A. — Not     wry  tur. 
i-)iii  r*>in«'iiil)vi'.     Ill 


278 

Q. — You  (lon'l  iiiiHwcr  iii.v  i|ii«>Hlioii.  Ih  it  iiiiulc  up  print-I- 
]mll,v  for  Mk'  iMilant-c  of  nitrli  tliiil  .you  iiiiKiit  liiivf  tiikcn  if 
,vou  IiimI  not  Im-<>ii  iiittM-fi'i'i'd  witli?  A. — It  wiim  inadc  up 
lli-Ht  for  tlu>  420  k'miIm  tlu-.v  took  awiiy,  iiiul  tli«>  Hiilt,  iin<l  iii.v 
two  KUUH,  uii«l  I  lien  rroiii  what  I  iii!|!lit  liavi>  taki'U  hail  thi'.v 
h'ft  iiii>  aloiio. 

Q. — Ih  that  the  prim-ipal  part  of  the  claim?  A. — I  Hup|Nme 
so. 

Q. — How  niiifh  tliM'H  that  amount  to?  A.— WVll  in.v  H;  iiu 
WiiM  niaili*  up  arroriliiiK  to  tin*  ri-Ht  of  the  vi'hmi'Ih'  (■laiiiiM, 
that  Ih  nil  I  know. 

H. — Vou  «lo  not  know  what  the  claim  Ik  for  the  lialaiicc  of 
catch?      A. — No,  I  cannot  Mlatc  that  now. 

(j. — Vou  never  niaile  a  Htatei:  ent  iih  to  your  ]>roliable  lial- 
ance  of  the  catcli?  A. — I  Hii|ipoHe  I  did,  the  mime  uh  the  rcHl 
of  them. 

Q. — When  you  hiiw  tlie  little  "Trlumjdi"  how  far  from  llie 
Heal  inlandK  wiih  hIic?      A. — From  which  inlandn? 

Q. — The  Heal  inlaiidH?  A. — Oh,  any  amount  of  way.  v.e 
were  over  KM)  milcH. 

Q. — And  how  far  from  OiinalnHka? 
itetweeii  20  and  :tO  miltt*  an  near  an  I 
Hide  of  the  ITnimak  piiKH. 

Q. — Wliicli  way  wmh  nhe  criiiHint;?  A. — She  wan  not  criiiK- 
in^  at  nil,  she  wiih  catchiuK  hcuIh  the  Hiiiiie  iih  I  did  mynelf 
that  day. 

Q. — She  had  her  boats  ont  at  the  Hnme  time?  A. — She  had 
HomethiuK  over  t»0  hcuIh,  and  I  liad  Homethin);  lietween  <I0  and 
70  tliat  day.      1  went  from  tlie  sinail  boat  on  board  her. 

Re-direct  examination  by  Mr.  PeterH: 

Q. — You  were  anked,  Mr.  Jacolmon,  with  regard  to  your  ox- 
IH'nneH  iin  the  "Mountain  Chief?"      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Let  me  in  the  llrst  place  ask  you  who  built  the  "Moun- 
tain Chief?''  A. — ^ine  IndiaiiH  up  north  on  the  Nana^H 
river,  Koniewhere. 

Q.— Who  did  they  Iniild  her  for?     A.— Well.  tlieiiiHelves. 

I   HII]lpOHe. 

Q. — Was  there  any  white  men  pni|»loyel  about  the  buildina; 
of  the  ship?  A. — I  tliink  there  was  one  who  kcjit  a  store  for 
tlie  Indians  togetiier  with  them. 

Q. — Were  there  aiiv  skilled  workmen  emploj-ed  on  her?  A. 
No. 

Q. — When  you  went  down  in  her  in  1S87  you  stated  you  had 
Indians  to  hunt  and  that  jon  only  carried  one  pun.  A.^— 
Only  one  gun  and  a  ritie. 

Q. — So  that  your  ammunition  supply  would  not  be  v.tv 
large?  A. — It  was  a  keg  of  powder  at  fO  and  a  flask  of 
50  powder  at  six  bits. 

Q. — I  presume  yo.i  had  some  shot?  A. — Oh,  yes,  thoro 
was  shot. 

Q. — Rut  tlie  ammunition  supply  was  small?  A. — It  did  not 
amount  to  anytliing  much. 

Q. — Now,  with  regard  to  your  provision  bill,  did  you  take 
any  provisiiuis  for  the  Indians?      A. — No. 

Q. — Who  sup])lied  them?  A. — Tliey  would  be  supplied 
IR'ith  their  own  dry  fish  and  tisli  heads,  and  all  their  own 
food,  and  tlie  eating  of  seal  was  tlie  biggest  part  of  it. 

(i. — Ho  that  as  a  fact  you  did  not  Hupply  the  provisions? 
A. — Very  little,  only  some  sugar  and  tea  and  biscuits. 

Q. — If  you  had  Hiipplied  the  provisions  it  would  cost  more. 
A'. — Yes.  the  way  we  do  now,  it  would  cost  about  f  l,00t). 

Q. — And  if  you  employed  white  men  how  would  the  ex- 
pense of  provisitming  compare  with  employing  Indians  at  that 
li'iic?  A. — I  had  white  men  on  one  Hchooner  in  18!).'{  and 
1891,  and  Indians  on  another. 


20 


2-y 

Q.— Ih  tlM-rt"  u  dilTi'nMicc  iH'twtfii  tlu'iii  iih  rvKiiflM  lli«>  ro»f? 
A— >V»'II,  I  Kot  «iv«'r  L',;«M»  h«')iIh  with  tin*  liidiaiiH,  iit  a  cohI, 
for  Miilllt  of  iilioiit  fl.lMM(.  wliilr  (Im*  "Miii-.v  KIIciim"  hill  with 
wliU»'  iiM'ii,  f«»r  Iwciil.v  llinM'  wliito  iiiuii  roHt  int-  f4.(HI(>  f»(r 
fiHMl.      That  iH  thi>  )litr<>n>ii(«>. 

(). — Ih  tln'n*  any  rt-nHon  why  Wwrv  wonltl  not  Im*  tln'  Hanif 
dltTi'MMir**  in  that  roHiHut  in  1HM7?  A.— It  would  have  hin-n 
th«>  Hanu>  thin);,  if  we  i>ni|>loy«>(l  whiti-  men  and  IndianH  m  in 
ISfHand  1S!»4. 

il — X«tw,  you  wt'rt'  aHk«>d  with  n'Kai-d  to  a  i-citain  tiHliery 
rt'ltort.  Ah  a  nnitt<-r  of  fact,  in  the  year  1KS7  wore  you  re- 
quired to  put  in  any  return  whatever?  A. — \o  Htateinent 
at  all. 

<}. — You  weri'  not  anked  to?  A. — I  neviT  wan  aHked  tlien, 
the  itiniitle  thinu  we  had  to  do  waH  to  enter  and  elear  and  pt 
any  where  we  liked  and  do  what  we  |denHed. 

Q. — Were  y«»u  uiHtrueted  by  any  perwtn  nt  that  time  to  keep 
a  loR  ghowiuR  what  sealH  you  eaufjht?      A. — X«. 

Q. — Hut  you  firi'  now?      \. — Yes. 

(j. — In  that  i'e8|K'<'t  an  alteration  hnu  taken  place?  \. — 
Yesr. 

(i. — Hut  in  1SM7  you  wen*  not  requintl  to  do  that?  .\. — I 
didn't  Hhlp  a  man  on  the  artieleH  then. 

Q. — In  1SH7,  aH  a  nmtter  of  fact,  did  yon  Rive  any  retiirn 
to  any  jM'rson?  A. — \ot  to  my  knowledge.  I  Bold  my  nealn, 
that  Ih  all  I  know. 

(). — F(»r  iuHtance,  did  you  give  any  return  to  any  jiernon  that 
thlH  Hhlp  waH  owned  by  Outman  &  Prank?      A. — No. 

Q. — That  Ih  an  error  in  that    Htatement?      A. — She    was 
30  owned  by  m(». 

Q. — You  wdd  h(>r  back  to  the  HiwaHh?       \. — YeH. 

Q. — You  Bold  her  back  to  th«»  Banie  p«'ople  you  bought  h«'r 
from?  A. — Well,  not  exactly,  iH'cauHe  I  did  not  buy  her 
from  the  IndianH,  but  the  IndiiUiH  built  the  boat  an«l 
I  bought  her  from  the  nuin  that  got  h(>r  from  tht>m  and  whone 
name  I   forget. 

Q. — That  in  not  material,  but  at  all  eventn  you  sold  her 
back  to  the  Siwanli?      A. — I  sold  her  to  Uw  IndianH.  yeH. 

Q. — You  Htatid  in  annwer    to    «|ueHtionH  put    to    \*»i    by 
4°  Mr.  LauHing,  that  in  1SS7  you  got  nliort  of  mipplieH,  if  1  nn- 
derntood  you  ariglit?     A. — No,  not  of  BupplieB,  but  I  wan  a 
little  Hliort  of  Knit. 

Q. — And  yon  were  anxious  to  nu'et  vessels  «>■!  that  «)cca- 
Hion?    A. — Y«'8. 

Q. — Did  you  get  any  suppli«>s  from  any  veKsels?     A. — \o. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  do  not  propose  to  w-e.xamine  this  witness 
as  to  the  crosH-examination  with  regard  to  the  case  of  ISSJI, 
I  will  let  that  stand  on  its  own  basis. 


50 


rx) 


Kxaminntitm  of  Mr.  Jacobson  closed. 


Captain  J.  B.  Warren,  (already  examined  as  a  witness  in 
111*'  caw)  r(>-cnlled  as  a  witness  on  the  part  of  tSreat  Hritain, 
and  duly  sworn: 

Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Peters. 

Q. — You  told  us,  ('aptain  Warren,  that  vou  had  command 
of  the  "Dolphin"  in  1«S0?     A.— Yes. 

Q. — And  you  sailed  on  her  in  Hchring  sea?  A. — I  sailed 
on  her  in  188t5.  both  on  the  «-oast  and  the  s«'a. 

(i. — At  what  time  of  the  year  did  you  enter  the  sea?  .\. — 
On  the  2nd  of  July. 

Q.— And  on  what  time  did  you  leave  it?  A. — On  the  12th 
of  August. 

Q. — What  was  yonr  total  catch  from  the  coast  and  in  the 
sea  that  year?  A. — Mv  total  catch  for  that  vcar  was  nbout 
2.fi7a,  I  think. 


WTtt^ 


Jit 


i 


280 

Q.— Aii«1  wliiil  «1i«l  ,v<Mi  nilfli  williiii  till*  ll«'hriii((  mni  |iro|)- 
«•!•?  A. — 'J-OUri,  I  lliiiik.  ll«w«'V«T.  Ilu'ii'  Yivrv  »w«'lv«'  nior»» 
tliiiii  (hilt. 

tj. — IM<I  ,voii  kiM'p  a  Joiii-iiiil  or  11  iliiiry  fioiii  «lii,v  to  iliiy  iliir- 
\n\l  tliiit  tu-iiHoii?     A. —  I  <li<l. 

W.— Iliiv«'  voii  it  with  .voii?     A.— Y.'H. 

(J. — WIm'II  diti  VOII  iiiiikf  tiM'Hc  i>iitri«*H? 

ti.— Ill  Hint  iMiok?     A.— Vi'M. 

(j. — At   what   tiiiii'  iliii   VOII  iiiakt'  tliiMu? 


10 


20 


30 


'llMt!    i 


50 


60 


A.— At  tlu'  tliiH'. 


A.- 


AftlT       till' 

iit'Xt  morn 


<o 


(Iu.v'h  work,  if  I  liail  tiiiii*  that  iilitht,  or  flw  thi* 
iiiK- 

li. — You  have  tohl  iih  ,voii  ^ot  into  tliv  wn  alHiiit  tli<>  2nd  nf 
.hii.v.  Would  you  turn  to  that  nii'nioranduiu  ItiHik  in  .vour 
hand  to  about  that  dati*.  ltff<u-«>  lonkiuK  )><  ll>"t  ]<>•*(  Htat<> 
how  niaii.v  raiio«-H  .vou  liad  on  the  "Molphin"?  A. — I  had  I'i 
lanoi'H  "lid  oni>  boat. 

(j. —  WaH  thf  boat  avaihiblf  for  the  tiiin*  you  w«-r«'  in  thi> 
wn?  A. — \o,  tin*  boat  wax  run  by  tlu'  I'lipiniM'r.  Wv  lost 
tlu'  boat  on  th<>  4th  of  .liilv,  I  think  it  waH,  and  K<>t  l>*'r  luii-k 
on  1li«>  24th. 

(i. — Von  loHt  the  boat  for  alioiit  21  da>M?     A. — Yi'». 

(J. — How  many  liiintt'rH  wi-w  in  lh«t«'  raiioi'H?  A. — Two  in 
eiu'li. 

Q. — W«'r«'  tln-y  liidianH  or  wliltt*  men?    A. — IndianH. 

Q. — And  how  many  of  tlu'iii  linntrd?  A. — TIii'im-  witi'  not 
alwayH  two  liiintcrH,  Homt'tiuu'H  tlu'i'i*  waH  ini'i-i'ly  a  rHnn<> 
Ht«'«>r<>r  and  an  <'X|N-ri<'nci'd  Indian  hiinti'r.  Konu'tinitm  tlu>r<> 
would  be  (wo  cxiN'rit'iiciMl  Indian  hiintiTM  in  tin*  i-nno<>. 

H. — How  many  all  (old.  in  tin*  i-anoc?  .V. — Two.  Homo- 
tiiiicH  th<>y  would  lie  both  i*x|M'ri<Mir«'d  hiint«>rH,  and  on**  would 
|iaddli>  and  the  otlivr  oii«>  would  Mtrikc  the  wnl,  or  Kmiictliin x 
(licy  would  bo(h  H(rikf  tlu'  wal. 

(i. — And  ai-tiially  hundnt;  in  I'nrh  caiioi'  how  Miny  wow 
tlu'ii?     A —Two. 

Q. — Hut  you  Hiiy  that  one  had  to  paddlo  and  iiianai;<'  the 
raiioo?  A. — Woll.  Hoim-tinirH  if  tla-y  i-amo  on  (wo  walH,  both 
would  Mtriko. 

Q. — Hut  aH  a  riili'  0110  wnn  to  nianafrc  thi'  fano«>  and  the 
otlwT  (o  hunt  or  Htrikf  tin*  wnl?     A. — S'«'h. 

Tho  ('oiiimiKHioni'r  011  llir  part  of  Hor  Maji'sty: — Wore 
thow  (wo  |H'rMoiiH  till'  only  oih'h  in  tho  <-an«N>? 

WitnoHK:— That  \h  all. 

Ky  Kir  <MiarloH  Tiiniwr: 

ii. — What  you  moan  by  (lioro  bcinfj  (wo  liiintorK  \n  (hat 
I  hoy  bodi  had  xjioarH  and  wor->  proparod  to  hunt  if  (hoy  );ot 
tho  oiniuoo?     A. — Tlioy  woro  lio(h  praotii-al  Hpoai-f'  iiioii. 

(j. — Looking  at  that  diary  of  yoiii-H.  would  you  turn  to 
.Inly  iho  2nd— 

Kir  CharloR  Tiippor: — With  (ho  i-ons:'nt  of  tho  (^omiiiitiKion- 
orj<  and  of  oounsol  on  tlio  othor  sido.  ]M*rliap!«  I  had  iM'ttor  load 
llio  witnosH  on  (IiIh  ovidoiiro  so  aK  (o  oxjiodito  mattorx.  Ho 
liaH  a  book  in  hit)  hand  and  1  havo  notoH  of  tluit  book. 


To  witnoHs: 


of  ontorinfT 
A. 


Q. — On  July  tho  2nd  liavo  you  an  ontry  tlion' 
tho  pans  with  tho  "Thornton"  in  tow?     A. — Yoh. 

(i. — And  you  spoko  tho  "A  If  rod  Adanifi"  on  that  dnto? 
— Tho  "Adams"  was  K<>ii>K  '"  »'♦  <l'o  Haino  timo. 

<i. — What  paHB  did  you  ontor?     A. — Tho  rnimaok. 

(/. — Whoii  did  you  tuiil  for  tho  Hoalin^  ({round?  A. — That 
Hamo  ovonint;. 

Q. — Wlion  did  you  lowor  «-anooH  in  tho  Hohrin^  wa?  A. — 
I  do  not  think  that  wo  Htartcd  to  hunt  that  day,  nlthou|rh  wo 
(rot  ono  Hoal. 


fit 


H. — Yoli  iir«'  HiM-tikiiiK  «>f  III*'  -n«l  of  .liilv?  A.— Vi-h.  I  ^ot 
iihf  w.'il  I  lull  wiiiK*  aft«-rii*M»u. 

H. — Aim!  I  hii|i|h»h4>  on  IIm*  :ir<l  of  .liil,v  voii  IowitihI  llic 
rtiiMH'H?     A. — \V*'  low<>r«Hl  tilt'  niiHH'M  iiihI  I  |{ot  H7  wiiIm  tliiit 

<lll,V. 

y. — Art'  tluMM'  <'iit«-n'«l  in  voiir  diury?  A. — Yvn,  thin  Im 
til  ken  from  tlii>  diiir.v. 

y. — You  liHV*'  till'  diary  tlwr*'?    A. — Y«'b. 

(j. — IIhv«>  you  K<>t  tlu'  liitltiuU'  and  lonKitud«>  In  wlih-li  your 

in  Hliip  wuM  on  tli«'  -'Ird  of  July,  1SN7?     A.— Latltudf  M  dt'itni'H 

54  ialnul«*H  north,  and  hinKltudf  HMt  dr^rffH  2*J  niiinit«-H  wt'Ht. 

H. — Xow  «in  llu'  4th  of  iluly  you  rauulit  no  wuIm?     A. — No. 

(^ — \nd  on  th«'  5th  of  .luly  what  did  you  do?  A. — On  tht> 
.'ith  of  .luly  I  don't  think  I  raui;ht  any  w-alH. 

ti. — And  <Hi  tin*  Itth  of  .July  y«»u  «'auKlit  non«'?  A. — No,  I 
wax  liuntiuK  for  my  boat. 

Q.— And  on  iIm*  7tli  of  .July?      A. — Tlw  mmv. 

(2.— And  on  tlM>  Sth  of  July?     A.— On  th«>  Hth  nf  July  I 
•  aiiKht  r>.'t  M«>alH. 
20      *i' — *'""  >■*•"  k'v«'  tlu'  |K)Mition  of  yonr  Hrhmmfr  on  tliat  day? 
A. — l^atitudi'  n't  d«>Kr4'«'H  24  minuti'M  north,  lonKlliidi*  I<t4  d«'- 
Kt'iTM  I!)  minutcH  woHt. 

Q.— And  cm  tlu-  !>tli  of  July,  what  did  you  do?  A.— I 
caught  l!2  M'alM  on  thf  '*>li. 

(j. — l<ook  at  your  jountiii  and  mh'  how  the  22  w«*r4>  (■au);hl? 
A.— 21  wi'H'  niUKht  by  thi'  canofH  and  on«*  waH  Hliot  by  tlu- 
niato. 

il — Prom  wIm"-'      A. — Krom  tlio  HclKMrncr. 

Q. — Wluit  wan  your  |Mtsitioi)  >in  the  !»th?  A. — Latltnd<'  R.l 
30  dt'Kni'H  21)  minutoH  norti),  and  lonitiludt'  l(i4  d4>t:r*'*'M  57  min- 

llll'H   Wt'Mt. 

(^ — And  on  ilit*  lIKli  of  July  did  you  K«'t  any  mnilH?  A. — I 
Kot  no  ^K'alH  on  th4>  KMh  I  bt'livvc. 

(i.— IIow  many  did  yoti  K<'t  «n  tlu'  llth  of  July?  A. — 4.1 
wals. 

(J. — AnytliiuK  <'1h«'?  A. — TlinH*  piipM,  Init  (lion'  woiv  n-nily 
only  4.'t  RcalH. 

Q. — What  waH  your  |>oHition  on  that  day?      A. — Latitude 
■*ir).i;{  north  and  hmgiludr  l(i.'..'<n  w«>Ht. 
40      Q. — And  on  the  12th  of  Julv  how  many  walB  did  you  takt*? 

A.— ai. 

Q. — WIm'W  did  tlw*  cancM-s  H«>al  that  day,  won*  t\wy  near  tlu* 
Nliip?  A. — TIh'  «'ano»'H  had  to  Htay  ••low  to  tin-  vc'swl  on 
account  of  tlic>  fof;. 

il — How  manv  walH  did  v«)U  ratrh  on  July  the  lUth?  A. — 
fis. 

Q. — And  what  |HiHilion  waH  tlu*  Hhip  in  tliat  day?  A. — 
Latitude  .~i4..*>»  norlii,  liOUKitude  lli4>..t!>  went. 

Q._And  on  the  14th  of  Julv  how  many  neals  did  y<»u  p't? 
5°   A.-lfi2. 

Q.— What  was  the  |MiHition  of  the  Hhi|i  that  day?  A. — 
Latitude  55.07  north,  Lont'iliide  lW,Af<  west. 

Q._()ii  the  l.'itli  of  Julv  how  manv  seals  did  you  >{«'♦?  •^■ 
— 2«. 

(i.— What  was  the  |Mnillon  »f  ll-e  ship  that  day?  A.— 
liHtitud*'  55  dejiiees  11  minutes  north,  hiuKitude  llitJ  dejirees 
•M  minutes  west. 

Q.— How  manv  seals  did  you  Ret  on  the  10th  of  July?  A. 
— 5,S. 

Q_'vi,nt  was  the  |N)sition  of  the  shij)  that  day?  A.— 
Latitude  .V».;iO  north.  Lonpitude  lfi7.35  west. 

Q.— ITow  manv  seals  did  you  get  on,the  17th  of  July?  A. 
14. 

{>.— What  was  the  itosition  of  your  ship  on  that  day?  A. — 
Latitude  55..'M)  north  and  longitude  1«8  west. 

Q.— The  romniissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States:— 
Had  not  the  witness. better  read  that  all  rijjht  tbrouKli? 


r<5 


i'!' 


II 


m 


w 


fTTT 


<(»M|:     i 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


so 


60 


KoahTH?    A. — I 

I  took  14  H*>alH; 

That  (lav  wf 

On  tl»'  l'r>t)i  of 


282 
Rir  rhaiit'H  Tuppt'r: — IVrlinps  it  will  Have  tlinp.     (To  tlu' 

wItlU'HH) : 

(j. — Take  tlu'  position  of  (lie  «lilp  and  tlu'  ratcli  «'a»'li  day 
and  Htat«'  tlu>  nnnihcr  of  8«>alH  (■aii<;lit  t'acli  day  and  tlic  lati 
tnd«'  and  lonj;itndc  of  tlic  sliip  witliout  my  UKkinn  you?  A. — 
On  tlu'  IStn  of  .Inly  wo  K<>t  l'*<*  i^oalH,  ant'  the  latitude  was 
tirt.'M  north,  longitude  1(>S.L>4  woKt.  Tho  n«'xt  day  I  t<M)k  soalH 
ajipcarH  to  hv  on  tlu'  21st  .Inly.  I  took  7(»  sealH  that  day; 
latitude  55.11)  north,  lon^'itnde  1(»7.47  west.  On  the  22nd  of 
July  I  took  .'W  seals;  latitude  .'SS.lil  n;)ith.  longitude  1«!S.2!» 
weKt.  On  the  2'Sr(l  1  took  (i:t  seals,  latitude  55.25  north,  ion- 
jjitude  l(i8.9  west. 

Q. — On  that  day  did  you  see  any  «»ther 
sighted  the  "Caiolena."  On  the  24th" of  July 
latitude  5(i.5  noitli.  loii^itud(>  UiT-'tO  west. 
Kifihted  the  "Orace, "  and  ;;ot  our  boat  back. 
July  we  t<N)k  .'{  seals;  latitude  5(i.4  north,  longitude  l(i(i.42 
west.  On  the  HMh  of  July  we  caught  nothing;.  On  the  27tli 
of  July  we  eau(>ht  ',*  seals*,  latitude  55.1(>  north,  lon(;itude 
l(i5.;M  west.  On  thv  2Sth  of  July  we  «-auKht  45  seals;  lati- 
tude 55.1  north,  lon!<;itude  l(i5.:{()  west. 

ii. — How  was  the  weather  that  day?  A. — Fair  at  noon, 
fojiuy.  (t)nsiderably  eo. 

Q. — l'n»eeed  now.  A. — On  the  2!»th  of  July  we  eau^ht  !>0 
seals;  latitude  ."il..")4  north  lon$j;itude  lfi<>.4.'{  west. 

(J. — What  sovt  of  weather  tliat  day?  A— Cloudy  day  but 
fine,  veiy  little  wind.  On  July  :{Oth  we  c-au};ht  1S4  seals;  lat- 
itude 54:4!)  north,  lon{;itude  1(!7:();{  west.  On  the  :Ust  of 
July  we  eiiu^ht  ISO  seals;  latitude  .'J4:41  north,  longitude 
l(i7:21  weht. 

(i. — What  sore  of  weather  that  day?  A.— Thick  fofj;  in  the 
niornin;;  and  didn't  lower  boats  until  !)  o'eloek.  On  August 
1st  we  not  V.y.i  seals,  latitude  54.:{!)  north,  lonf;itud(>  lli7..'{<t 
west.  On  Auffust  2nd  about  S:15  the  cutter  ]mssed  with 
three  schooners  in  tow.  That  day  we  only  ffot  20  seals,  lati- 
tude 54.4!)  north,  lon^jitude  1(>7.57  wi-st. 

y. — That  is  your  latitude  and  louf^itude  on  the  2nd  of  Aup- 
ust?     A. — Yes,  that  would  be  about  noon. 

Q. — Did  you  make  out  what  the  cutter  was?  A. — I  made 
out  that  she  was  a  cutter  with  three  sealers  in  tow. 

Q. — What  did  you  do  then?  A. — I  called  in  the  canoes 
and  started  to  (iie  soutli  to  leave  the  ground  that  I  was  in, 
with  the  object  of  ^oing  to  fill  up  with  water  to  be  ready  to 
go  home. 

Q. — Had  the  si};ht  of  the  cutter  anythintr  to  do  with  your 
8t«'erinjj  south?     A. — It  had  everythinn  to  do  with  it. 

Q. — (live  vour  lalituHe  and  lon}{itude  for  the  next  dav?  A. 
—On  August  the  .Srd,  latitude  54.08  north,  longitude"  10(i.5S 
west.  On  .\ugnst  4tli  we  c.-inie  to  anchor  in  a  snuill  harbor 
with  a  wry  lonj;  name,  wliicli  I  cannot  make  out. 

Q. — On  the  ."^rd  of  August  did  you  take  any  seals?  A. — On 
the  Itrd  of  August  I  got  .^(^  seals. 

Q. — On  your  soutlujly  course  you  put  your  boats  out?  A. 
— Yes. 

Q. — IMweed  now?  A. — The  next  day  I  filled  up  with  wa- 
ter, I  canu>  ont  again  on  tlie  .fith.  or  between  tlio  night  of  the 
4th  and  5th,  and  oa  the  5th  of  .\ugust  I  got  two  seals;  lati- 
tude rA.a  north  longitude  1(57.18  west.  On  the  (ith  of  .\ngust 
I  got  (>:{  seals;  latitude  .').5.1  north,  longitude  l(i7.41  west.  On 
the  7th  of  .\ugust  I  got  no  seals,  and  on  the  8th  of  August  1 
got  10  seals. 

i}. — What  did  yon  see  on  the  8th  of  August  besides  seals? 
A. — It  was  thick  weather  and  I  see  I  was  lying  to  most  of  the 
time. 

(J. — Have  you  any  other  entry  as  to  sigiitlng  vess«'ls  on 
that  day?  A. — No,  the  10  seals  we  got  is  the  principal  entry. 
Our  latitude  was  54.44  north,  lon%ihide    l(i0.2t)     west.     On 


283 


20 


30 


AuKUBt  the  <.)th  tluM<>  wiih  ii  titltk  fog  until  2  p.m.,  latitutU* 
'(4.40  uurtli,  luiij^itiule  Uiti.l'd  west.  \Vi>  cmiKlit  4S  hcuIh  in 
the  aftei'iKKtii,  and  it  Met  in  fttnay  a^ain.  On  Augutit  the  lOtli 
we  ean^ht  141  Heals;  latitude  54.41  north,  longitude  l<>(i.2S 
west.  On  AuKiiMt  lltli  we  ean)j;Iit  14  Heals;  longitude  54.45 
north,  longitude  lUtS.!)  went. 

ii. — Now,  did  you  Heal  after  that  in  that  year?  A. — Not 
that  year. 

(i. — You  proceed«'d  ttlraight  for  N'ictoria?     A. — I  proceed- 
in  <'d  down  the  eoant  junt  to  land  the  IndiauH  and  then  came 
Htraight  up  here. 

Q. — What  part  of  the  eoant?    A. — ('layoquot. 

(i. — And  then  you  eanie  right  to  Vietorui?     A. — Yes. 

(). — In  1SS7  I  believe  you  w«'re  in  the  Bea  again,  but  yon 
wei'»>  B»'i/.ed  almost  as  soon  as  you  got  in?     A. — Yes. 

(J. — Tliat  was  earlf-  in  July?    A. — Yes. 

Q. — How  many  days  were  yon  Healing,  do  you  remember? 
.\. — Well,  on  foiir  days  I  caught  Heals.  One  day  I  g»»t  one, 
lint  I  think  that  was  shot  from  the  vessel. 

I}. — What  dav  were  vou  seized?     A. — On  the  12th. 

(i.— «y  what  cutter.'   A.— The  "RuhIi." 

rross-examination  by  Mr.  Warren: 

Q.— What  is  the  tonnage  of  the  "Dolphin"?  A.— I  think  it 
was  7.'J. 

Q. — KegiHtered  tonnage.     A. — Registered  tonnage? 

ti. — And  she  was  equipped  with  Hteam,  I  beli«'ve?  A. — 
Y«'s. 

(.}. — Was  she  using  steam  power'in  1886?    A. — Yes. 

Q. — I  suppose  she  could  move  around  where  a  sailing  ves- 
sel could  not?    A. — Yes,  sometimes,  if  we  wanted  to. 

(i. — You  could  i)Ut  yourselves  in  a  position  where  the  seals 
were  better  than  could  a  nailing  vessel?  A. — If  it  was  calm 
we  <'ould. 

Q. — It  was  calm  sometimes?      A. — Yes. 

(i. — The  best  sealing  weather  is  when  it  is  calm?  A. — 
Yes,  as  a  rule,  or  light  winds. 

Q. — And  on  a  perfectly  still  day,  if  it  were  possible  for  a 
40  sailing  vessel  to  get  where  the  seals  wen>  she  would  meet 
with  the  best  wsults,  would  she  not?  A. — Yes,  if  she  wishwl 
to. 

Q. — And  your  steam  schooner  could  do  that.  A. — Yes,  if 
she  wanted  to  mov«'  her  position  she  could  do  so  better  than 
n  sailing  vessel  in  a  calm  day. 

(i. — You  coiild  move  your  steam  vessel  on  a  calm  day?  A. 
Yes. 

Q. — Then  «m  the  best  days  for  sealing  the  "D«)lphin"  could 
get  around  when  such  a  vess»'l  as  the  "(^arolena"  could  not? 
A. — She  could  do  it,  but  as  a  rule  we  lay  still  with  the  ves- 
sel when  sealing. 

ii. — Do  the  seals  come  around  the  ship?  A. — No,  the  snmll 
boats  go  for  the  seal. 

Q — llow  far  out  from  the  ship  do  the  small  boats  go?  A. 
— They  go  just  until  they  can  see  the  nuists  of  the  vesB«'l. 

Q. — Docfi  a  steam  vessel  pick  the  boats  tip,  or  do  they  re- 
turn to  her?  A. — Tliey  return.  We  do  not  know  where 
the  boats  are,  and  we  have  to  wait  or  we  would  lose  them. 

Q. — The  "Dolphin"  appears  to  have  not  moved  much  be- 
tween the  Ih'd  of  July,  wheti  you  commenced  sealing  in  Ileh- 
ring  Sea  in  ISSii  and  until  you  sighted  the  "forwin?"  A. — 
Oh.  yes,  she  moved  conHiderable. 

Q. — Were  there  any  days  during  the  year  that  yon  moved 
nior<«  than  the  "Caroiena"  conld  have  moved?  A. — I  do  not 
know  in  the  Sea. 

Q.— Were  there  any  windy  days  in  that  year?    A. — Home 


50 


r.o 


'1  .  1,-, 


I 


mi 


!  'r!  I 


\m 


iifrwfw*^ 


Mi'li 


284 

(la.v8  woro  very  wind.v  and  «i)in«'  dnjs  very  calm,  some  days 
dead  mini. 

Q. — Did  you  hear  Ihc  ti'Mtiiuony  of  llu*  witix'HH,  Captain 
lirai;^,  this  morning  rc^ai-diiiK  davH  in  tliat  year  wli«>n  it  wan 
ini])088ibl(>  for  Iiini  to  do  ;iny  sealing?  A  — V»'8,  I  lu'ard  liini 
name  bad  days  for  Iiim  wlicn  I  Inid  pood  8<>alinK  days. 

Q. — You  appear  to  liave  liunted  every  day  in  -July,  praeti- 
cally?       A. — ^'ery  nearly. 

Q. — And  wliat  would  be  the  differeni-e  in  this  r«'«iH'et  be- 
10  tween  your  vessel  and  the  "M.iry  Ellen?"  A. — The  differ- 
enee  in  this  t-ase  wiis  that  she  was  farther  to  the  westward 
out  in  the  BehriuK  Kea,  while  I  »\a8  inside  and  in  shelter. 

Q. — That  would  nnike  a  ditTereuee,  would  it?  A. — It  makes 
quite  n  differtMK-e. 

Q. — When  were  you  in  sigiit  of  the  "CarolenaVA. — I  b»'- 
lieve  I  read  out  that  it  was  on  tlu»  2;Jrd  of  July. 

Q. — I  take  it  you  did  not  sw  her  on  any  other  day?  A. — 
I  do  not  remember  now,  but  if  it  is  noted  in  the  book  I  did. 

Q. — Tell  me  the  latitude  and  lonjjitude  of  your  shij*  on 
20  the  10th  of  Au>,'"st?  A.— Latitude  54.41  north,  lonjjitude 
l(;(i.2S  '.vest. 

Q. — How  far  and  In  what  direction  would  the  "Mary  El- 
lon" be,  if  she  was  in  latitude  IR.t.SO  north  and  longitude 
170.3(1  w«'8t.  can  you  t«'H?  A. — She  would  be  four  degrees, 
of  longitude  further  to  the  westward. 

Q. — How  nutny  miles?  A. — Hetwen  150  and  UOO  marine 
miles;  00  minutes  of  longitude  is  not  a  full  marine  mile. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  do  not  wish  this  to  go  down  on  the  notes  as 
30  the  statement  that  it  is  the  log  of  the  "Mary  Ellen." 

Mr.  ^^arren: — I  do  not  put  it  on  the  record  as  that.  I 
said  if  the  "Mary  Ellen"  was  in  such  a  position  how  far  away 
would  8ln«  be?  A. — On  that  day  I  was  well  in  to  land  in  the 
neighborhood  of  I'niinak  I'jiss. 

Q. — You  appear  to  have  taken  141  seals  on  that  dav?  A. 
Yts. 

Q. — Was  the  sealing  as  good  down  there  as  it  had  bec-n  vp 
in  the  Sea?  A. — I  got  into  a  batch  that  day  and  did  well, 
considering  the  place. 

Q. — On  the  Olh  of  August  you  appear  to  have  taken  (!.'{ 
seals.  Had  you  moved  down  toward  the  pass  at  that  time? 
A. — I  was  coming  towards  the  pass  at  that  time? 

(J. — I  understood  you  to  say  tlmt  the  "Dolphin"  had  eight 
canoes  that  year?     A. — Twelve  canoes. 

Q. — And  two  Indians  in  a  canoe?      A. — Yes. 

y. — And  both  the  Indians  were  somethnes  hunting?  A.— 
The  two  Indians  wenr  together  in  tlu'  .same  canoe  to  hunt. 

Q. — They  were  using  spears,  were  they  not?  A. — Most  of 
them  used  s]>eai's,  but  I  think  s(mie  of  them  had  guns. 

(i. — Were  they  all  furnished  with  guns  (hat  year?  A. — 1 
do  not  think  they  ail  had  giuis.  but  some  of  them  had  guns. 

Q. — They  i»ractically  di«i  their  sealing  that  year  with 
sjx'ars?      Yes.  sir. 

(i. — And  both  the  Indians  in  each  <'an(»e  w«'re  e(|ui]>]M'd 
wi(h  spears?  A. — Yes.  they  were  all  e<|ui|)ped  wKh  spears. 

(). — And  you  did  not  see  the  Indians  use  (he  spear  in  (lie 
boats?      A. — I  have  seen  (hem  spear. 
(5q       Q. — Both  at  the  same  time?      A. — I  know  (hey  both  sp«'ar- 
ed  sometimes. 

Q. — As  a  martt'r  of  fact,  you  did  not  see  the  canoes  when 
they  were  away  about  their  business  sealing?  Only  some 
of  the  time. 

Q. — And  it  may  Ih>  possible  (hat  both  of  the  Indians  liunt(Ml 
most  of  the  time?      A.— It  might  be  possibh>  for  all  1  know. 

0. — What  is  the  probabilKy  as  (o  tha(?  .\. — I  think  some 
of  the  time  thev  did. 


40 


SO 


rj! 


lO 


20 


285 

Q. — l)i<1  you  make  ai  n'poil  to  the  lii'itiMli  CoiiiiiiiHHioni'i'H 
lu'W  at  Viftoria  tunnv  .rears  ajjo?  A. — I  do  uot  remember 
doing  so. 

Q. — Did  you  ever  state  that  your  HehriuK  Ken  eateh  iu  1880 
on  the  "Dolphin"  waH  !MM)?      A.— No. 

(J. — You  never  did?      A. — No.  I  n«'ver  did. 

(J. — Did  von  ever  state  tliat  vour  coast  eateh  on  the  "Dol- 
pliin"  in  1S8«  was  l(t4(»?      A.— No.  .    . 

.M.  Peters: — If  my  leariie<I  friend  ])ro]K>ses  to  eontnidirt 
liiis  witness  on  any  jioint  of  tliis  liind,  tliat  is  hardly  the  way 
lo  lay  the  foundation.  If  he  is  eross-examinin);  him  on  any 
statement,  it  is  usual  to  put  the  statement  in  the  hands  of 
the  witness. 

Mr.  Warren: — The  ol)j«'«t  of  juodueiim  these  hooks  and 
askinji  the  witness  about  tliem,  is  to  show  the  unreliability 
of  these  statistics  more  than  for  any  other  purpose. 

Sir  Charles  Hibbert  Tupper: — We  know  nothing  about 
your  statistics  or  this  so-called  report.  I  think  I  am  right 
in  saying  that  the  usual  mode  of  cross-examining  is  to  show 
the  witness  a  professed  statement  and  ask  him  if  he  made  it. 

Mr.  Diekin«i«»i! : — There  is  no  doubt  thai  that  is  tlie  rule  if 
he  ii"  examined  about  a  statement  made  by  him,  but  we  have 
not  mi<de  that  as.s(>rtion. 

The  (.'oiuniissionei  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — As  I 

understand  it  is  not  asserted  that  this  is  a  statement  pur- 

^°  porting  (o  be  made  by  him.      He  is  simpiv  asked  if  he  made 

that  statement.      It  is  not  a  letter  signed  by  him  or  anything 

of  that  sort. 

Sir  rharles  Hibbert  Tupper: — We  assumed  that  Mr.  War- 
ren waf  reading  from  ■>.  book  which  lie  had  in  his  hands,  iu 
putting  (he  question  to  the  witness. 

Mr.  Warren: — I  did  read  from  a  book. 

40       Sir  Charles  Hibbert  Tupper: — From  a  report  nuule  by  the 
witness,  Captain  Warren? 

.Mr.  Warren: — No,  from  a  report  of  the  llehring  Sea  C«Mn- 
miss{(m. 

Witness: — 1  understand  what  he  was  reading  from. 

Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Warren  continued. 

Capt.  Warren,  I  show  you  volume  4  of  the  Fur  Seal  .Vrbi- 
50  (nitimi  proceedings,  American  re-print,  being  the  case  of 
♦  ileal  IJritain  and  I  call  your  attention  to  the  table  containd 
im  (he  marginal  paging  4  known  as  Kxhibit  "R  H,"  and  I  ask 
\ou  if  you  are  not  the  originator  of  that  table?  \. — Very 
likely  I  am. 

ti. — Did  y<m  make  that  up  from  your  own  knowledge  or 
fiom  otlicial  sources?  .\. — From  just  such  infonnation  as 
I  could  get  I  had  no  way  to  get  detinite  information. 

(i. — Did  you  swear  or  aflirm  in  the  aflidavit  that  you  took 
this  from  the  Canadian  Fisheries  report?  A. — I  do  not  re- 
member that. 

ii. — Did  you  take  it  from  the  Canadian  Fisheries  Ueport? 
.\. — I  couh":  not  say  just  what  I  ((M»k  it  from,  I  had  to  take  it 
from  whatever  I  could  get. 

ti. — What  did  you  use  that  table  for?  .\. — To  make  up 
llie  average  catch  of  (he  season,  I  (hink. 

<i. — .lust  tell  us  how  you  compiled  (ha(  table?  \. —  I  took 
the  catch  of  certain  schooners  in  Itehring  Sea  tov  18H(>,  ves- 


(>o 


mm 


m 


i 


r 


386 

Mt'lt*  tbnt  I  knew  to  be  in  the  sen.  and  tliom'  I  did  not  linow 
to  be  in  the  sea  I  left  out. 

Q. — Where  did  you  get  tl>e  iuforniution  as  to  wliat  they 
t-niiglit  in  Rehring  Sen?  A. — From  sncli  reiioits  as  I  could 
j?et  from  sealers  or  any  other  way  I  conld  p-t  at  it. 

Q. — I  call  your  attention  to  the  affidavit,  or  de«'laration,  as 
yon  ])lease  to  call  it,  fonnd  in  marginal  itaf^es  '2  and  :<  of  tlie 
same  volume  of  the  Hritish  case,  and  I  'lire<-t  your  attention 
jQ  specifically  to  puragraph  8,  and  I  ask  you  if  you  did  not  swear 
there  that  the  table  came  from  the  Canadian  Fisheries  Re- 
jiort?  A. — I  suppose  I  took  it  from  that  report  and  any  other 
sources  that  I  could  get  it  from. 

Q. — I  desire  to  read  this  paragraph  8  into  the  record,  and  I 
call  the  witness'  attention  to  tliis:  "The  exhibit  hereto 
annexed  is  the  statement  of  the  catch  of  IH  sealing  vessels 
in  and  about  the  Hehiing  Sea,  during  so  much  of  the  season 
A.I).  188<>,  as  they  were  in  Iteliring  Sea."  It  is  declai-ed 
here  that  that  is  "substantial,  true  and  correct,"  and  you  say 
20  that  this  is,  "substantial,  true  and  correct  from  your  own 
personal  knowledge."  Do  you  mean  to  swear,  C'aptain  War- 
ren, that  Schedule  IJ  is  correct  from  your  own  pei'sonal 
knowledge?  A. — As  far  as  I  know  that  is  the  catch  for  the 
schooners  of  1886. 


Sir  t'harles  Ilibbert  TujuM'r: — That  is  not  ]mragia])h  8.  So 
that  the  record  will  be  right,  it  is  wt'll  to  read  the  whole  of 
paragraph  8  to  which  you  have  called  tlie  attention  of  the 
witness. 


30 


Mr.  Warren: — Very  well,  I  will  read  paragraph  8. 
follows: 


It  is  as 


mIMo    ) 


8.  The  Exhibit  (IJ)  liereto  annexed  is  a  statement  of  tlii- 
cntch  of  thirteen  sealing  vessels  in  and  alxnit  tlie  Hehring 
Sea  during  so  much  of  th»'  season  of  A.l).  188(5  as  they  wer»> 
in  Itehring  Sea.  The  statement  is  taken  from  the  report  of 
the  inspector  of  fisheries  for  the  Province  of  Hritisli  Colum- 
bia for  tlie  y«'ar  1880,  as  «-ontained  in  the  rejMirt  of  the  I)e- 

40  partment  of  Fisheries  for  Canada  at  pages  248  and  240,  and 
I  verily  say,  frmn  personal  knowledge  of  the  facts,  that  the 
said  statement  is  substantial,  true  and  correct.  The  schoon- 
••rs  "Carolena,"  meaning  the  "Carolena"  herein  mentioned, 
and  "Thornton"  and  "Onward"'  were  seized  on  the  Ist  and  2nd 
August,  188(!,  and  ilieir  voyages  thus  broken  up;  the  scli«»on- 
«'rs  "Mary  Tayhu',"  "Mountain  Cliief,"  "Hustler"  and  "Kate," 
not  having  been  in  IJehring  Sea  during  the  season  of  188(i, 
the  cat«'li  of  these  above-named  scho(tners  are  not  included  in 
estimating  the  average  catch  in  Behring  Sea  for  that  y«'ar. 

SO  On  account  of  The  seizures  made  on  the  1st  and  2nd  August 
aforesaid,  and  of  the  schoon«'r  "Favouiite"  being  on?  •  '^  out 
of  the  sea  by  the  commander  of  the  said  "Corwin,"  thi-  thir- 
teen vi'ssels  mt>ntioned  in  Exhibit  (H),  witli  one  or  two  ex- 
ceptions, left  Itehring  S«'a  or  llie  best  scaling  grounds  tlien^- 
in,  long  before  the  close  of  the  sealing  seas(m,  and  thus  the 
average  catch  as  found  in  Exhibit  (It)  is  fully,  as  I  verily  b*>- 
lievB,  .'500  skins  less  than  it  would  have  been  had  they  all  re- 
mained till  the  end  of  the  season. 

60  Sir  Charles  Ilibbert  TupiM'r: — Had  vou  not  bett»'r  rend  E.t- 
hibit  "B"  into  that? 

Mr.  Warren: — Exhibit  "B"  is  as  follows: — 

EXHIBIT  "B." 

Number  of  seals  taken  Ity  «'ach  of  the  following  thirteen  seal- 
ing vessels  during  the  year  188(>  in  and  ab«)iit  Behring 


10 


40 


(10 


287 

H«'H,  most  of  tlu'  Hiiid  voHst'ls  louviiig  the  Sea  before  the 
end  of  tlie  KeuHou,  fearing  capture: 

No.  of 

Vi>88el8.  Real  8kinH. 

"I'athtlmler"   1,7«« 

"Mury  Ellen"   4,256 

"Therewi"    '2fi'25 

"Pavonrite"    3,325 

"Hlaik  Diaintind" 1.760 

"Alfred   Adanin"    2,405 

"Aetive"    2,275 

"( 'ity  of  Kan  I  »i«'go" 1 .020 

"Hilvia  Handy*'   1,587 

"Dolphin"   2,(501 

"Anna  Iteek"  1.400 

"Orate"    2.550 

"Sayward"   2,725 

Total   eateh    30,!),')5 

Average  per  vessel   2,381 

(To  witness): 

(i.— Captain  Warren,  when  yon  stated  tlij-.t  the  catch  of 
I  he  "Mary  Ellen"  was  4,250  skins  in  Itehring  Hea,  is  that 
right?  A. — I  suppostt  that  is  the  information  I  had  at  the 
(iiue. 

il. — Did  you  hear  the  witness  testify  that  he  took  1869  out- 
HJde  of  Hehring  Sea?  A. — I  heard  him  say  so  this  morning, 
yes. 

(i. — When  yon  said  the  "Favourite"  took  2,325  in  Behring 
Sea,  did  you  understand  that  that  included  the  coast  catch  as 
well?      A. — This  morning? 

Q. — No,  when  you  made  the  statement. 

Sir  Charles  HiblMU't  Tupiwr: — Exhibit  "B,"  inste.id  of  stat- 
ing tliat  any  of  these  vessels  took  so  many  sealskins  in  lieh- 
liiip;  Sea,  says: 

"Nuniber  of  sealskins  taken  by  each  of  the  following  thir- 
li'en  sealing  vessels  during  the  jear  1880  in  and  about  the 
Hehring  Sea." 

The  Witness: — That  is  what  I  put  tlie  "about"  there  for; 
because  I  did  not  know  the  difference  in  the  catch. 

The  Commissi<»ner  on  tlie  part  of  the  United  States: — In 
paragraph  8  th<.'  witness  says  "in  Hehring  Sea,"  and  it  seems 
to  me  the  cross  )>xamination  should  go  along. 

Sir  (Jharles  Hiblwrt  Tupper: — I  objected  to  the  statement 
thai  the  witness  said  these  seals  were  taken  in  Hehring  Sea 
iiH  being  based  on  E.xhibit  "H." 

Xfr.  Warren: — The  witness  based  a  claim  for  the  average 
catch  in  Hehring  Sea  npon  the  catch  which  he  knew  perfectly 
well  was  not  made  in  Hvhring  Sea.  This  is  the  object  of  the 
cross-examination. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — It  is 
(piite  clear,  Mr.  Warren,  and  you  had  better  put  your  ques- 
tion. 

(Cross examination  by  Mr.  Wrarren  continued): 

(i. — Do  you  call  the  (California  coast  "about"  Hehring  Ren? 
A. — The  Pacific  Ocean  is  :iboiit  ll"hring  Sea. 

Q. — Are  the  California  and  Oregon  coasts  about  Hehring 
Sea?      A.— It  is  some  distance  from  Hehring  Seu. 


,    I    I 


m 


288 


M 


i'l 


'«»'(l.    1      ! 


50 


60 


A.— 1,4«M)  oi-  1,500 

it  would  bt*  abuut 

"III  11  lid  nboiit  Hell- 
tlic  Calif(»rnia  and 


Q. — How  far  is  it  from  Uflii-iii}^  Ki'a? 
milt*, 

Q.— Till'  ('alifoiiiia  coast?      A.— I'uit  o." 
1,<iOO  miles,  1  suppose. 

Q. — When  yon  iisetl  that  pltraHeol<>};y.  ' 
liiij?  Sea,"  did  .you  intend  that  to  cover 
Oi-egon  coasts?  A.— It  was  this  way:  I  did  not  know  what 
she  caiiKht  in  the  Hea  and  what  outside.  I  could  not  8ei>ar- 
ate  llieni.  because  I  liad  not  the  inroiination  in  my  poss«'s- 
10  sion.  I  was  inKtructed  at  Ottawa  to  make  out  the  catch  feu- 
IJehring  Sea,  which  I  could  not  jtossibly  do,  for  I  did  not  have 
the  fljjures.  and  I  jmt  it  in  that  way.' 

Q.— Did  you  see  the  little  "Triumph"  in  Kehrinfr  Sea  in 
ISSfi?      A. — I  do  not  remember  seeinjr  her  there  in  1S.S<;. 

Q.— What  vessels  did  you  set?  in  tln'  Sea  in  1S8(»?  A. — I 
saw  the  "Onward,"  the  "('arolena,"  the  "Favourite,"  the  "An- 
na Beck,"  the  "rJiace,'  the  "Laura."  and  an  American  vessel, 
and  another  A>iierican  vesmd  I  do  not  reinem.hj'r. 

Q.— Captain  Warren,  do  you  think  that  the  catch  of  the 
20  "Dolphin,"  l>ein>;  a  vf.'ssel  al)out  70  tons,  carrying  twelve  ca- 
noes and  two  hunters  in  a  canoe,  is  a  fair  basis  on  wlii«-h  to 
estimate  the  prosjiective  cat«'h  of  the  "<'arolena,"  which  was 
J!  boat  of  27  tons,  haviiii;  four  canoes,  and  one  hunter  in  each 
canoe?  A. — I  had  two  in  each  canoe,  the  same  as  them; 
proi>ortionate,  yes. 

Q. — Answer  the  question,  please.  A. — I  say  in'oi)ortlon- 
ate. 

Q. — What  do  you  mean  by  that?      A.-  -I  do  not  think  that 
the  "Carolena"  should  catch  as  many  seals  as  the  "Dolphin" 
30   should  catch. 

Q. — Should  she  take  as  many  in  each  canoe?  A. — I  do 
not  see  any  reason  wliy  she  should  not. 

Q. — Then  there  is  no  advantage  in  a  steam  vessel?  A. — 
On  the  sealing  };rounds  w«?  do  not  have  to  use  the  steam,  for 
we  lie  idle.  We  do  not  even  use  the  sails  except  very  little. 
W»'  generally  lay  under  the  foresail.  Steam  is  an  advan- 
iaffi.'  in  <;oinf;  in  for  water  and  things  like  that. 

Q. — Does  the  result  of  the  sealing  voyage  de|H>nd  to  any 
extent  on  the  eyjHM'ience  of  the  hunters?  .\. — Oh,  yes. 
40  Q. — Do  you  know  what  the  capacity  was  <tf  the  hunters  of 
the  "Caroiena"  in  ISSfi?  A.— I  know  very  little  about  them 
excei)t  by  report.  They  were  i-eported  to  be  good  average 
huntei's. 

Re-Direct  examination  by  Sir  Charles  Hibbert  TupiM»r. 

Q. — Captiiin  Warren,  you  were  asked  in  r»'gard  to  the  de- 
<*laration  in  the  Itritish  case  in  connection  with  tiie  claim  ot 
the  "Carolena,"  and  as  to  an  exhibit  which  purports  to  give 
the  numlier  of  skins  taken  Ity  «'a(  11  of  the  following  thirt«'eii 
sealing  vessels  during  the  year  lSH(i  in  and  about  th<>  Hehring 
Sea."  Will  yon  look  at  that  Exhibit  (H)  to  which  your  at- 
tention was  called,  and  I  will  read  from  the  annual  rejtort  ot 
the  Depariment  of  Fislieries  of  the  Dominion  of  Canada  for 
the  year  lHS(t,  tii«'  statisti«'s  wliich  appear  there.  You  will 
tell  nu'  whether  these  figures  disagree  frcnn  that  Kxhibit. 
17(i(>  skins  were  taken  l»y  the  "Pathfinder"  in  1.SS(>.  What  is 
the  number  vou  have  got  there?      A. — 17<Mi. 

Q.— The  "Mary  Klh'ii,"  4.L»r)(i.  What  is  the  number  in  that 
Exhibit?     A. — It  is  the  sunu'  here. 

(J. — The. "Theresa,"  2,(il'r);  what  is  tln'  number  in  that  ex- 
hibit?     A. — It  is  the  HI' me  here. 

Q. — The  "Favourite,"  .'<,:<2n;  what  is  the  number  in  that  ex- 
hibit?     A.— It  is  2.:»L»r>  here. 

(i.— The  "Ulack  Diamcmd,"  l.7«{0?  A.— It  is  the  same  here. 

(i.— The  "Alfred  Adams,"  t?.4(ir.?      A.— It  is  the  same  here. 

(}.— Tin    ".\ctive."  2,27.')?       .\.— It  is  the  same  hew. 

(J.— The  "Dolphin,"  2,tMil?  A.— It  is  tlie  Kline  lieie. 


2.Sy 
Q. — Tliiit  Ih  tli«>  Htoiimcr  ,v(ui  wcrt'  «'xaiiiiiu>d  iiboiil  tliiH  r«»i'c>- 

IMMUl.  i8  it   UOt?        A. — Yt'8. 

(i.— The  "Anna  Hi'ck,"  1,400?      A.— It  in  tlu-  Haiiu'  liore. 

(i.— Tilt'  "(Jraci',"  L'.nuO?      A.— It  \h  t\w  mmw  liciv. 

(/. — Tlu'  "Ha.vwanl."  2,72.'?      A. — It  is  tln'  nanu'  Ihtc. 

(i. — liavo  you  aii.v  otlicrH  on  tliat  llHt?  A. — Y«'K,  tlu' 
"rit.v  of  Kan  IMojso,"  f«)r  l,(»-'0.  and  tlu'  "Hvlvia  Handy,"  for 
l.r.S7. 

Q. — Whoiv  waH  tlial  stati'mont  niado  tliat  is  in  your  luinds, 
10  and  al)(Mit  wliicli  you  Iiavo  Iteon  examined?  A. — It  must  Imve 
lieen  tal^en  at  Ottawa. 

(i.— In  wluit  year?      A.— In  1SH7. 

Q. — Did  you  see  tlie  statiHtics  in  tlie  Dominion  Fisliery  Ue- 
|tort  of  1SS(»  hefon'  maltin);  tliat?  A. — I  t-annot  just  remeni- 
lier  wlietlier  I  did  or  not. 

t^. — From  wluit  otlier  miuree  could  yon  have  >jot  (hat  in- 
formation in  repird  to  these  vessels.  The  "City  of  San  Diejjo" 
and  tlie  "Sylvia  Handy"  were  Ameriean  vessels,  from  what 
otlier  soun-e  could  you  have  aoi  tliew  finiires?      A. — I  do  not 
20   think  I  could  hav«>  n»t  them  from  any  other  source. 

Q. — Do  you  know  of  any  other  source  from  which  you  could 
have  jfot  these  fij;nres?  A. — Excejit  I  got  them  from  some 
of  tlie  sealers'  reports. 

Q. — When  you  were  preparing;  these  claims  at  Ottawa,  wer»» 
you  assisted  by  the  officers  of  the  Marine  and  Fisheries  De- 
jiaitment?      A. — I  was. 

Q. — Was  the  "Mary  Ellen"  a  steamer?  A. — No,  she  was  a 
sailing;  vessel. 

Q. — And  you  say  that  in  Kehring  Sea,  auxiliary  steam  ves- 
qC  sels  such  as  the  "Dolphin"'  would  seldom  use  steam.       A. — 
It  was  very  little  use  at  all  while  in  the  Sea. 

Q. — It  was  used  to  >jo  on  the  direct  voyage  and  back?  A. — 
More  going  in  and  out  of  harl>ors  and  through  passes  and 
such  places  imi-ticularly. 

Q. — When  you  said  you  were  the  originator  of  the  table 
before  you,  have  you  any  desire  to  ex]>Iain  what  you  mean  l>y 
the  "originator  of  the  table"  which  includes  the  "City  of  San 
Diego"  and  the  "Sylvia  Handy"?  A. — Well,  I  was  with  the 
ollu'i's  in  getting  up  this  table  to  show  what  the  doings  of  the 
^o  v<'ss('l  were  in  the  sea. 

(2. — I  have  called  your  attention  to  the  introductory  lan- 
guage at  the  top  of  Exhibit  (H),  which  says  these  skins  were 
taken  in  and  al)out  Hehring  Sea,"  and  paragriiph  S  contains  a 
similar  statement.  What  ex]>lanati(in  have  you  to  nnike  in 
connection  with  the  discrepancies  b»'tw«'en  the  statistics  of 
the  .Marine  and  Fisheries  de]>artment  report  and  tlie  discreji- 
aiicies  in  Exhibit  (H),  and  the  evidence  which  you  have  given? 
.\. — I  do  not  know  that  I  exactly  understand  you. 

H. — For  instan<'e,  you  made  tli«'  statement  that  the  "Dol- 
"o   |»hin"  took  2,(!01,  and  in  your  evidence  today  you  say  it  is 
something  less  in   Hehring  Sea?       A. — Yes. 

ii. — What  explanation  have  you  f«n'  including  the  skins 
that  were  not  taken  in  the  sea.  A. — I  was  not  in  a  position 
to  detlne  just  wliat  was  caught  in  the  Sea  at  that  time,  and 
if  1  did  it  for  one  vessel,  I  could  not  have  done  it  for  the 
others. 

{}. — For  how  many  persons  were  y()u  acting  in  Ottawa  in 
1M,S7?      A. — I  was  acting  for  all  the  claimants. 

Q. — You  are  the  Mr.  Warren  who  is  already  mentioned  in 
r,o  these  atfidavits  in  connectitm  with  the  case  of  (Jreat  Britain? 
A.— Yes. 

(J. — .\nd  you  made  these  statements  on  your  information 
and  belief  at  that  time?      A. — Yes. 

(-i. — From  the  best  information   that   you    could    put  yonr 
hands  upon?      A. — Yes. 
lie  cross-examination  by  Mr.  Warren. 

Q. — Do  you  mean  to  say  that  you  based  the  schedule  known 
;is  "Schedule  H"  entii-ely  upon  the  facts  collected  from  this 
11> 


■Mm 
mm 


I 


m 
m 
m 

III! 

Pi 


I 


m 


Rpprnp 


II 


MIMii    ; 


290 

tlHlu-rv  r«'iM»i-t  ami  thai  jou  iiiadt*  It  pui-t  «»f  yo»v  iittidavit? 
A.— I  do  uot  Hn.v  poHitivcl.v  that  I  pot  It  all  from  that.  I 
think  1  fiot  it  from  maiiv  otIuT  hoiiim-ch. 

(^ — If  H(H',mH  to  Im>  an  i-xact  copy  in  so  far  as  somp  of  the 
vchhcIh  are  c-onfoim-d?  A. — It  varicH,  but  most  of  them  art- 
th<»  Haine. 

Q. — Wlilch  one  is  dllT«'r«'nt?  A. — I  called  attcntitin  to  It 
in  m.v  «'vid«»n«'<». 

Q. — In  "Exhibit  M"  it  happ«>nH  that  tlicre  Is  a  misprint  and 
lO    that  tlu-  «-at('h  of  th«'  "Pavonrit«>"  is  wronp-      Tlie  total,  how- 
t'vcr,  adds  up  I'ifjht  if  we  corroct  the  misitrint?       A. — It  Is 
pi-int«>d  in  tiie  Exhibit  as  two  tlit>nsand  and  somt'thinp. 

(i— l?nt  th«'  total  in  "Sclu'duh'  R"  shows  that  tho  "Favonr- 
itf's"  catch  should  be  over  three  thousand.  With  that  ex- 
ception it  is  an  exact  cojt.v  of  wiiat  Sir  Charles  Tu]>]ier  has 
just  read?       A. —  It  may  be. 

(J. — I>id  you  not  jnst  com]>are  it  with  him?  A. — With  that 
exception  it  is  the  same,  I  think. 

(}. — What  did  you  mean  when  you  stnt«'d  in  your  affidavit, 
20   "And  I  verily  say  from  personal  knowledfje  of  the  facts  that 
the  said  statement  is  substantial,  true  and  corre«'t?      A. — 
Yes.  as  far  as  I  knew. 

i}. — I>o  you  mean  that  the  boats  had  actually  nmde  these 
catches  or  that  that  was  taken  from  the  Candian  Fisheries 
Kei»ort?    A. — It  meant  as  far  as  1  knew.      I  was  not  there, 
to  know  what  the  catch  was,  and  1  could  only  take  it  from 
some  report. 

(J. — You    do    not     pretend     to     say    that     that    is     any- 

thin<;  more  than  a  copy  «»f  what  was  found  in  th(>  Canadian 

3°   Fisheries  Report?       A. — It  must  be  consid«'rably  that  way. 

Q. — Yon  don't  mean  to  say  that  you  could  swear  to  the 
catch  of  each  of  these  vessels  from  your  personal  knowledge? 
A. — I  do  not  pretend  to. 

Q. — As  a  matter  of  fa<'t.  In  IHSO  and  18S7  the  customs  house 
had  nothing  to  do  with  the  catch  of  the  vessels,  did  it? 
A. — I  do  not  think  if. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — When 
YOU  had  two  Indian  hunters  in  each  canoe  what  lay  were 
40    they  on? 

Witness: — We  gave  the  Indian  hunters  |2  on  each  skin; 
that  was  |1  each. 

Sir  Charles  HiblM-rt  Tapper: — I  would  call  the  attention  of 
the  Conunissiont'rs  to  what  Is  evidently  a  misprint  in  the 
(htcnment  quoted  from.  This  document  puritorts  to  be  drawn 
up  by  those  trained  in  the  law,  and  the  phrase  clearly  was 
"Substantially  true  and  «'orrect,"  as  is  usual.  The  word 
"Substantial"  is  evidently  a  misprint  for  "Substantially." 
We  will  put  in  the  original. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — We  will  accept  that  as  the  statement. 


50 


60 


William  O'Leary  was  called  as  a  witness  on  behalf  of  Great 
Itritain  and  duly  sworn. 

I)ire<t  examination  by  Mr.  IJodw«'ll: 

Q. — Your  name  is  >Villiam  O'Leary?      A. — Yes. 
Q. — You  live  in  Victoria?      A. — Yes. 
(i. — And  you  are  a  mastt'r  marin«'r?      A. — Yes. 
(f. — You  came  to  N'ictoria  in  April.  1HS(>?      A. — I  came  on 
the  17th  of  April.  ISSfi. 

(J. — You  cani"'  round  on  tlu'  "Pathfinder?"     A. — Yes. 

(}. — You  brought   lier  here?       A. — Y<'S. 

Q. — From  wlial  place?      A. — From  Halifax,  Nova  Scotia. 


29 1 


A. 


10 


30 


H. — Yon  never  had  Ix'en  in  llritiHli  Colnnibin  lM'f«>re? 
—No,  that  wuH  ni>-  tii-Ht  time  in  ItritiHli  (.'ulnnibia. 

(i. — The  "rntlirtndei"  waH  a  Healinf^  ve^Hel?    A. — She  waB. 

Q.— You  mty  y^u  urriv(  J  in  Vletoria  in  April,  18Hti,  and 
liow  long  did  .von  ivniain  in  Virttn-ia?  A. — I  left  here  ou 
tlie  4th  of  Ma.v. 

1). — At  that  time  were  tliere  an.v  other  Itritiuli  BelnNtnera 
in  |Mirt  to  your  l<n(»wh'dKe?  A. — No,  when  I  eanie  liwre 
tliere  waH  not  another  KritiHh  Hehooner,  that  in  a  Healinii; 
Hchooner,  in  jtori. 

Q. — Did  any  other  HealerH  ronie  in  when  yon  were  here? 
A. — I  think  the  "Aetive"  ninie  in  fnnn  the  west  eoast  when 
I  waw  here. 

Q. — You  went  out  in  tlie  "Pathfinder"  and  returned  in  the 
fall?      A. — I  returned  on  the  4th  of  September. 

Q. — Do  you  know  of  your  own  knowledge  whether  there 
were  anv  Healing  HehoonerH  for  Hule  in  the  port  of  Vii-toi-ia 
in  the  fall  of  ISS«?  A.— \V.hen  I  returned  the  "Mary  Tay- 
lor" was  for  Hah'. 

ii. — Any  other?      A. — That  i«  nil  I  remember. 

Q. — What  kind  of  a  Hchooner  was  the  "Mary  Taylor."  A. — 
She  was  a  st-hotuier  of  about  5(t  tons  probably;  Mr.  Munsie 
asked  me  to  go  on  board  her. 

Q. — Did  you  examin<-  her  for  amy  purpose?  Q. — Yes,  Mr. 
Munsie  had  a  notitm  of  buying  her  and  he  asked  me  to  go  on 
her  and  have  a  look  at  her. 

Q. — In  what  condition  did  you  find  her?  A. — A  pretty 
poor  condition. 

Q. — In  what  respect?  A. — Her  decks  were  bad  and  her 
bulwarks  were  broken  olT;  lu'r  rigging  was  bud. 

(i.—  Did  you  examine  her  out  of  water?      A. — I  did  not. 

11 — Did  she  appear  to  be  an  old  or  a  new  vessel?  A. — Rhe 
api»eared  to  be  a  pn'tty  old  vessel,  btit  I  did  not  ask  her 
age. 

(i. — And  in  pretty  bad  repair?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Did  you  give  any  opinion  after  that  examinatitm  as  to 
wliether  she  would  be  a  good  vessel  to  buy  for  seailing  pur- 
poses or  not?  A. — Mr.  Munsie  asked  me  to  examine  her,  and 
I  gave  him  my  opinion. 

ii. — What  was  that  opinion?  A. — I  forget  what  he  told 
ine  they  wanted  for  it,  and  I  said  I  did  not  think  she  was 
worth  that  amount  of  money. 

Mr.  Dickinson : — Of  course  the  encpiiry  is  what  his  opinicm 
was. 

Mr.  Hodwell: — Yes,  I  should  have  iisked  him  what  his 
ojtinion  was. 

To  witness: — Was  that  vour  opinion  that  vou  stated?  A. — 
50   Yes. 

Q. — Now,  vou  went  sealing  in  the  ytar  1S8G  in  the  "I'atli- 
tinder,"  did  you?      A.— Yes. 

(i. — Had  you  ever  been  sealing  before?  A. — No.  I  had 
iit'v«'r  sealed  for  fur  senl  before. 

(J. — Had  you  any  piirticular  knowledge  of  the  locality  in 
ISt'hring  Sea  where  fur  seals  wei-e  to  be  found?  A. — No,  I 
(lid  not. 

60  ^i* — ^ ""  went  fur  sealing  to  Hehring  Sea  with  the  ship 
lliat  year?      A.— Yes,  I  did. 

Q. — Where  did  you  get  your  crew  of  Imnters?  A. — I  got 
(hem  right  here  in  Victoria. 

Q. — Have  you  any  knowledge  as  to  what  their  exi>erience 
had  been  in  hunting?  A. — Well,  I  think  two  of  them  had  been 
hunting  on  the  coast  of  t'aliornia  that  year,  came  here,  left 
the  vessel  here,  and  went  with  nu'. 

Q. — The  others?      A. — The  others  was  tlieir  first  year. 


40 


m 


mmf^r* 


<«IM|:     I 


10 


39a 

II — Tliiit  wiiM  »Im'  flint  .v«'iir  for  nil  of  tlu'iii  then?  A. — 
That  wiiH  tht'  fli-Ht  .vtar  for  all  of  th«>iii. 

*i. — How  many  huiitd'H  did  yon  hav»'?      A. — I  had  flv»'. 

Q. — How  nian.v  boatM?  A. — I  had  flvo  r»'}{ular  hunting 
hontH  and  a  Hniall  Htcni  lioat. 

(i. — Did  yoni'  wtorn  boat  do  an.v  hnntinj{''  A. — <Jot  a  ft  w. 
1  went  ont  niywlf  and  not  a  f«'w.  nil^ht  havo  jjot  thirty. 

Mr.  IMcklnHon: — Wi'ir  your  huntcrH  ludiauH  or  whitcH? 
A. — Whito  liuntorH. 


30 


Q. — What  tini»*  did  you  ^o  into  tlu'  sea?  A. — I  think  tlie 
tith  day  of  June. 

Q. — Did  you  know  wliert*  to  And  the  seal?  A. — Only  by 
looking  for  them. 

li.— Did  you  find  them'     A.— I  did  after  a  while. 

(i. — When  did  you  tlnd  tliem?  .V. — I  didn't  find  any  amount 
until  after  the  flrHt  week  in  July;  I  found  a  few  before  that, 
but  not  many.      1  got  a  v«'ry  few  before  that  in  Hehrinc  Sea. 

Q. — Will  you  look  at  the  ehart  of  Hehrinf;  Sea,  now  shown 
20  to  you.  and  say  where  yop  found  the  seal  to  bejjin  with?  A. — 
Well,  the  first  time  I  was  tl  ere  I  hunted — you  see  I  have  go* 
nv  loK  of  that  year  at  all. 

y. — You  are  K'^'i"K  ^l''**  evid«'nee  now  fnun  your  reeollee- 
ti<ni?  A. — .Jjist  from  reeollection.  I  struck  the  seal  tlu,' 
thiekest  just  about  !MI  miles  to  the  westward  of  St.  Paul. 

(2. — Wliat  latitude  and  longitude,  about?  A. — About  17- 
west  and  57  north.  I  struek  the  seal  about  west  of  St.  I'aul 
Island,  |ierha]m  west  true,  about  !H)  miles,  I  bunted  there. 

Q.— That  would  be  about  what  time?  A.— Well,  after  the 
(Irst  week  in  July,  until  the  22nd  or  25th  of  July.  I  hunted 
tJiere  in  that  place. 

(2. — Then  where  did  vou  work?  A. — I  went  south  from 
tlier«'. 

(). — On  what  line  of  longitude,  about?  A. — Well,  I  bunted 
in  abtuit  170  in  the  latter  part  of  July,  about  54  1-2  degrees 
novth. 

(i. —  How  did  you  find  tlie  seal  as  to  (|uantity,  when  you 
were  scaling  then'  toward  the  end  of  July?  A. — 1  found 
them  .iH  jtlentiful  as  I  wanted  them. 

Q.  — Does  that  mean  many  or  few?  A. — That  means  a 
good  many.  What  makes  me  remember  the  longitude,  I 
could  see  the  islands  on  a  fine  day,  and  I  was  afraid  of  goin<$ 
loo  n«'ar  them. 

(i. — How  lonii  were  you  provisioned  to  stay  and  how  long 
did  you  ex|M'ct  to  stay  in  the  Sea  when  you  went  there?  A. 
— I  intended  to  stay  until  altout  the  fli^t  of  September. 

Q. — How  long,  as  a  ma1t«'r  of  faet.  did  you  stay?  A. — 1 
stayed  until  the  4th  of  August.  I  stai-teil  for  home  on  the 
4lh  of  August.  Didn't  get  out  of  the  Sen  until  about  the 
fith. 

Q. — What  is  the  reason  of  your  leaving  the  Sea  on  the  4th 
of  August?  A. — I  spoke  the  schooner  Silvia  Handy,"  and 
the  ca])tain  told  me  that  the  Ameri<-an  cutter  was  seizing 
vess«'ls  in  Hehring  Sea. 

Q. — At  that  ime  were  you  in  good  or  bad  sealing  ground? 
A. — I  was  in  good  sealing  ground  at  that  time. 

Q. — What  sort  of  weather  did  you  have  at  that  time?  A. 
— The  day  he  spoke  me  wasn't  a  very  fine  day;  the  boats  were 
out,  but  they  canu'  back.  It  wasn't  a  very  fine  day  for  seal- 
ing, and  they  w«re  coming  on  board  again. 

Q. — How  iiad  tlie  weather  been  for  two  or  three  days  pre- 
ceding that?  \. — For  two  or  three  days  before  that  the 
weather  had  l»e(>n  prettv  fair  sealing;  weather. 

Q.— What  day  did  you  speak  the  "Silvia  Handy?"  A.— 
The  4th  of  August. 

Q. — Did  vou  do  anv  sealing  after  the  4th  of  August?  A. 
—No. 


40 


SO 


6<) 


293 


Q.— How  mau^  wtilH  dit]  ^uii  liav<>  on  tlit>  4tli  of  Aiigimt? 
A. — W'v  liiid  oil  board  17(i()  HoiiK'lhiiig — I  tliiiik  it  waH  «(). 

(j. — Wi'iv  tlioM^  Ht-alif  all  caiiKlit  in  lU'liriiiK  Hea?  A. — 
No. 

Q. — IIow  many  wito  caiiKlit  onfHldo?  A. — I  ean't  ttdl  «'X- 
aftly.  I  think  I  may  have  had  MH)  on  Koin^  into  thv  Hca;  I 
don't  think  any  nioiv  than  that. 

(i. — Ait  you  siiw  you  did  not  have  more  than  tliat?      A. — 

I  don't  tliink  ho.      What  mukcH  nR>  rt'iiii'inlR-r  that  I  had  only 

10  that  many,  I  only  had  one  duy'8  ^ood  hunting  on  the  f<»aHt 

Koing  up,  and  1  got  01)  HealH.      I  didn't  stay  any  time;  went 

on  to  the  Hen. 

<i. — Y<Hi  were  makiuK  for  the  Sea  aH  fast  an  j'ou  eonid  at 
the  time'/      A. — Yes. 

Q. — The  sealing  waH  not  good  enough  to  induce  you  to  stay 
behind'/      A.— I  didn't  think  ho  at  the  time. 

<1. — Have  you  any  lecolleetion  of  the  nunitn'r  of  Beals  that 
you  raught  in  the  tirst  four  dayH  of  AuguHt'/  A. — 1  think 
tlie  tirst  and  second  day  of  Augunt  I  had  pretty  good  sealing, 
20   but  I  don't  remember  the  i-atches. 

Q. — Have  you  hunted  for  your  log?  A. — I  gave  that  log 
that  year  to  Mr.  Munsie.  I  don't  know  what  lieejime  of  tlic! 
log,  and  the  books  I  kept  an  account  of  seals  in  I  cannot  find 
them. 

(i. — You  hav(?  looked  for  them  for  the  purpose  of  giving 
your  evidence  here'/      A. — I  have. 

Q. — Hut  still  you  have  a  recollection  of  the  circumstances? 
A. — Oh,  yes;  I  remember  the  circumstances. 

Q. — It  was  your  tirst  year  of  sealing?  A. — It  was  my  first 
30  year  of  sealing,  yes. 

Q.— Did  vou  go  out  in  1H87?      A.— Sealing? 

Q.— Yes.       A.— I  was  sealing  in  18S7. 

Q.— On  what  scho*>ner?      A.— The  "Pathfinder." 

y. — With  how  many  boats  and  how  many  hunters?  A. — 
I  had  six  boats  and  tiix  hunters. 

Q. — Did  you  go  to  Itehring  Hea?      A. — I  did. 

Q. — When  did  you  enter  the  Sea?  A. — I  think  I  went  In 
tliat  year  on  the  28(h  of  June,  if  I  remember  rightly.  I 
think  it  was  about  the  2Sth  of  June. 

Q. — For  how  long  were  you  provisioned  and  what  time  did 
you  exjtect  to  stay  there?  A. — I  exi>ected  to  stay  until  Sep- 
tember, about  the  first  of  September. 

Q. — As  a  matter  fo  fact,  how  long  did  you  stay  in  the  Sea? 
A. — I  left  on  the  17th  of  August. 

Q. — What  was  the  occasion  of  your  leaving  on  the  17th  of 
August?  A. — Well,  I  got  a  little  further  to  the  eastward 
than  I  thought  I  was. 

Q. — Where  were  you  on  the  17th?  A. — I  was  off  what 
they  call  liogusloff. 

(J. — How  far  were  you  off  Ilogusloff  Island,  and  in  what 
direction?  A. — I  was  to  the  eastward;  might  have  been 
northeast  of  it.  I  was  probublv  20  or  25  miles  to  the  east- 
of  it. 

Q. — What  was  the  weather?  A. — I  hadn't  lM>en  there  very 
long;  only  :i  day  or  two.  I  think,  if  I  remember  rightly.  I 
had  been  to  the  westward  and  drifted  down  to  the  eastward. 

Q.— What  had  been  the  weathei'  for  two  or  three  days  prior 
to  that?  A. — We  had  pretty  fair  weather;  I  don't  remeni- 
(5o  ber  exactly.  We  had  u  westerly  wind  for  a  day  or  two  and 
fog. 

Q.— What  happened  on  the  17th  •  '  '.ugust?  A.— When 
the  weather  cleared  I  was  to  the  e.  i  of  Ilogusloff,  and  I 
couldn't  get  back  into  the  westward  without  standing  to  tlu» 
eastward.  Had  a  westerly  wind.  I  had  to  stand  over  to 
the  north  and  eftst  to  get  back  to  the  westward.  I  didn't 
want  to  take  «ny  chances,  because  I  <'xi)ected  I  might  run 
across  some  of  tlu-  cutters. 


40 


50 


■nhh 
fMnt 


;r'|- 


204 


M»»li. 


1     : 1 


Q.—  liow  fill-  iH  KoKiiHlutT  fi-oiii  L'liinak  I'iimh?    A. — It  »]>• 

IM'III'M   to   Im' 

iy — X«'vi>r  imIihI.  Wlifii  ,vimi  foiiixl  yoiii-Mflf  in  that  |Mmi- 
lion,  aii«l  f<>ariiiK  tliat  ,vimi  iiiittlit  iikh-I  tlu*  cutti'i*,  wliat  «li<l 
y*Mi  «!o?     A. —  I  «aiiii' out  tlir(Mi|;li  Hit*  riiiiiiak  I'aHH  aiul  «-aiiM> 

llOlllf. 

ii. — Willioiit  lliiiHiiiiiK  your  Hi'nMon?       A. — Without  AiilNh- 

inu   III.V    HtMIMOII. 

(). — How  many  waJH  <li()  you  havt*  tluit  w<>n'  caught  in  tli<- 

lO  (^I'a?      A.— I  thinii  I  had  at)out  'J,2(t()  in  tin*  K<>a;  I  ran'l  nav 

to  witliin  4(1  or  TiO  NcalH.     I  r<>ui«'nilM'r  tlu*  waMtn'H  i-atrli,  Itut 

I  nin't  ri'nu'UilMT  wliat  I  luid  in  tlu-  Kt-a  *>xartlv;  I  thinit  alHiiit 

2.2(H>. 

(i. — Can  you  n\vv  uh  the  wluth*  wasonV  catch?  A. — 2.S17 
wan  th<>  amount  of  hcuIh  I  IuhI. 

ii. — For  tlu-  wluth'  HcuHon?      A. — Yes. 

(i.— Wlun  did  vou  ntart  out?  A.— Wlu'n  did  I  l«'av<*  Vic- 
toria? 

(i. — Y«'H?      A. — I  went  out  from  Vit-toria    licforc    (^liriHt- 
2o   auiH  tliat  year. 

{}. — Did  you  come  hacli  to  Victoria?  A. — I  cann'  in 
Marcli. 

il. — IMd  you  land  your  bcuIh  tlicr*-?  A. — I  landfd  what  I 
luid. 

(i. — And  you  went  out  apiin,  when?  A. — I  came  in  ln'rc  tlu' 
Kith  of  March,  I  think,  and  went  out  apiin  aiNtut  the  '20th. 
I  can't  tell  within  a  day,  about  the  2i|(|i.  I  think. 

(i. — \ow,  y(»u   have  been  sealing  ••ontinuouKly  Hince  tliowe 
yearn,  have  you?      A. — Yen,  «'very  year. 
30       ii. — With  white  hunt<is?      A. — I  had  Indiana  on  the  conKt 
one  yi-ar;  I  came  hoin     ,  think  the  tirHt  of  June  tluit  year;  I 
did  not  Ko  into  the  Si       it  all. 

(2. — What  Ih  your  eA,ciience  uh  to  the  ]>ro|iorlion  of  Heals 
which  are  l*mt  by  hnnlers  in  Kenlin^.  I  mean,  what  Ih  the  |m-o- 
{tortion  of  KcalH  they  lone  compared  with  thoHe  they  ffvt" 

The  CommiHHioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  StateH: — What 
have  we  to  do  with  that.  Mr.  Itodwell? 

Mr.  nodw<'ir — My  friendn  have  op«>n<'d  that  quention. 

The  Commissioner  on  tlie  pjirt  of  tli«'  I'nited  States: — This 
in  your  case  now,  not  the  defeiidant'H  caRe. 

Mr.  Hodwell: — I  think  I  have  the  rijjlit  to  assunx*  that 
when  my  friends  open  a  line  of  struiKlit  cross-examination — 

The  Ctmimissioner  «m  the  part  of  Her  Maj«'sty: — Did  thev 
not  put  that  in  as  <|ualifyini;  a  general  renuirk  mad(>  that  you 
vol:  'd  upon  in  the  report  of  the  case  of  the  .\merican  (Sovern 
ment. 

Mr.  Rodwell : — The  portion  of  th»>  case  that  we  put  in,  as  I 
remember  it,  did  not  refer  at  all  to  that  subject;  it  referred 
limply  to  t!ie  trail  that  liie  seals  use  in  fiouxg  into  Hehrini; 
l^ea.  and  tlu-  number  that  went  ui  thei". 

The  C(»muiiHsioner  on  the  pai-t  of  Iler  Majesty: — The 
f,'round  on  which  it  was  j»ut  i:i  was  that  it  (|u;:!iti«>d.  It  may 
;>r  may  not  have  (|ualified,  but  that  was  the  reason  which  jus- 
titted  its  p)in}r  in  at  the  tinu*. 

Q. — Did  yoH  keep  a  book  in  1887  showing  the  number  of 
leals  that  you  fjot  from  day  t()  day?      A. — I  did,  yes. 

il — Where  is  that  book'/      A. — I  cannot  find  it. 

Q. — You  have  bM>ked  for  it  for  the  purpose  of  {(ivin;;  your 
L'videuce  here?       A. — I  did,  y«'8. 


40 


50 


60 


Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Dickinson. 

i). — Captain,  are  you  still  sailinu  for 
sir. 


Munsie? 


-No, 


m 


<j.— Wlu'ii  (lid  .voii  <|iiit  IiIm  4>iii|)lo,viiifiil?      A,— I  i|iilt  IiIm 

llllllo.VIIM'Ilt    lllMt    III    \HH\t. 

Q. — Wliiil  Hliip  wt'ri'  .VOII  wiilliiK  on  In  !HH7?  A. — I  wiih  oh 
Ihf  -I'ntlitlnilci-.' 

(^— An«l  .von  wen-  in  \HHH1      A.— Ycm. 

(2.— And  In  IHf'S?      A.— 'NN  I  wiim  on  tli rin'iTMa."  jUHt 

(in  till'  i'oiihI. 

(j. — WitK  tliiit  II  MnnHic  lioiit?      A. — No,  hIii*  wnnn'l  owniNl 
li.v  MimihIo. 
io      (i. — Yon  illil  k«M'|i  tin  n^toiint,  I  Hti-.  of  .voiir  willing  vo.viiko 
in  IHSi?     A. — (Hi,  I  kopt  nn  iirninnt  of  it    yin. 

(i.— You  left  it  on  that  Hliip,  diiln't  .von?  A.— I  don't 
know. 

Q.— Yon  did  not  liiinn  It  otf  witli  von?  A.— I  innv  liovo; 
I  think  I  did. 

(2.— \YiiH  it  In  tin-  Ion?      A.— Thi'  nitchi  h  of  nkliiM? 

t^. — IHd  .von  ki'i'p  nn  iii-coimt  of  tiio  si-nli*  von  took  in  Ihf 
lo^?      A. — No,  in  ti  hook,  a  Mmall  hook. 

(i. — IHd  .von  I'Vi'i'  hIiow  tliat  to    aii.vhod.v?       .V. — .\ii.vhodv 
20   that  wanti'd  to  moo  It,  loiild  koo  it;  I  don't  know  iih  anvliod.v 
ivtT  did. 

H. — IMd  .von  kiH'p  tlio  minit'  foit  of  an  an-ount  in  1SH«?  A. 
— Tlio  winio. 

(i. — You  don't  know  whoro  tho  othi-r  hook  Ih?  A. — I  do 
not. 

(i. — l>o  .von  ronionihor  wlii-n  tlw  ItritlKli  ('oiniiiiHHioni'rH 
wi'Pc  hero  to  InvoHtij^att-  tho  Hoalin);?  A. — At  wliat  tiini'  wnw 
II? 

Q.— P'or  ISSti?      A.— In  IHStS? 
30      ii.—ln  1H!»2?      A.— I  don't  know  an  I  wm  hvvv.       What 
liiiif  wi'io  iIm'.v  hero? 

Q. — Dr.  (hHirRo  LawHon  wau  0110  of  the  Hritish  (NminiiH- 
sioiicrH?      A. — If  .von  can  tell  1110  what  tinit'  In*  wiih  lioro. 

(i.— Woll,  In  1H!»L'?  A.— I  wiiHii't  Im'io.  I  wiih  Kant,  in 
till'  ho^inninK  **f  '■'! ;  I  lanic  lioro  In  tlu*  HprinK  of  '!)(>,  around 
the  Horn. 

ii. — Do  .von  iviiu'iiilM'r  of  making;  anv    Htatciii«>nt     to    tiio 
roniinlMHioiici'H  ahoiit  tlio  numh«>r  of  hoiiIh  taken  in  ISSti  and 
IHS7?      A.— Xo,  I  don't  roiui'inhi'r. 
40       Q. — Now,  lot  Mil'  iiHk  .von  ns  to  thi-  "I'nthflndor,"  .voii  wen- 
on  lii'r  all  tlii'  HfUMon  of  ISSt!,  woivn't  .von?      A. — I  wan 

Q. — Did  .von  not  taki*  !>.^i()  ncaln  in  Itohriii);  Hca  and  T.'ill  on 
Hie  loiiHt?      A. — Xo.  I  did  not  ^ot  75((  on  tlio  cos'st. 

Q. — IIow  inan.v  did  .von  g«'t?  A. — I  don't  know,  hnt  I  did 
not  havt>  that  inan.v. 

Q. — How  nian.v  did  .von  jji'l  in  Hi'liriiiK  Si'a?  A. — AYoll.  1 
don't  know;  1  know  1  didn't  fii-t  ovim-  .'{(M)  hdiIh  on  tho  cotiHt 
that  joar. 

Q. — How  nwin.v  did  .von  gi't  in  RohrinK  Son?  A. — I  had 
l.TfiO  odd  altofrothor. 

Q. — Ko  .vou  not  1.4(MI  and  odd?  A. — I  must  liavo  got  ahoiit 
1.4(l(>  in  Hohinng  Sen. 

Q. — Xow,  ri'tiirnint;  to  tlicso  hooks,  what  did  .von  do  with 
the  hook  of  18Sfi?     A.— That  is  what  I  would  liko  to  know. 

Q. — You  wi'iv  on  the  "I'athfindor"  the  next  .rear?  A. — I 
was. 

Q. — Did  y<  u  see  it  that  .vtar  on  her?    A. — Xo. 
^         Q.— Xeither  the  1S8«  hook  nor  the  1H87?  A.— No.  1  don't 
think  I  left  them  on;  I  think  I  hrought  them  ashore. 

Q. — Didn't  von  aeeonnt  to  Munsie  for  vonr  senlinR  oateh? 
A.— I  did. 

Q. — Show  him  how  yon  eaut;ht  them?  A.— I  didn't  show 
him  how  I  canglil  them;  I  nhowed  him  how  man}'  I  had. 

Q. — Didn't  .von  bIiow  him  the  aoeonnt  .von  kept?  A. — I  did. 

Q.— That  in  what  yon  kept  .vonr  ai-eonnt  for,  to  show  .voiir 
owner?      A.— I  did.' 


i^O 


h'' 


296 


li 


!<1 
t'i 


10 


20 


30 


40 


M>l! 


50 


60 


Q.— Didu't  j'oii  Icuvu  tlio  book  with  Muiisie?  A.— 1  dou't 
(i)iiik  HO. 

(i.— Why?  A.— Tlie  book  didn't  b(d»»ng  to  Munsic,  it  be 
longwl  to  me. 

Q.— Hut  yon  showed  lilm  tho  actount?  A.— I  did,  of 
<'imiw.  In  making  np  tlu'  bnntci-H"  awonnts  lu'  had  in  have 
th«>  nnmbor  of  seals  they  canjil't. 

Q-— Wlnit  time  did  yon  leave  Behrinf?  Sea  in  1887?  A.— 
In  1887  tlie  last  day  1  hunted,  I  think,  was  the  15th  day  of 
AuRnst. 

Q-— What  made  yon  leave?  Afraid  of  being  seized  in 
]887?      A. — Yes,  that  was  tltt>  reason. 

Q.— Was  tliat  why  yon  left?      A.— Yes. 

Q.— That  was  wTiy  yon  left  in  ISSC?  A.— I  spoke  a  vessel 
in  188(;  which  told  me  that  seizures  were  nnide.  I  didn't 
kntiw  that  they  were  making  any  seizures  in  1887.  _I  sup- 
posed they  were. 

Q. — What  made  you  aui)pose  that?  A. — Because  they  had 
l>een  making  si-iztireN  the  year  before. 

Q. — IHd  not  Mr.  Munsie  tell  yon  before  you  went  away  that 
sp:in^  th.  ri-  would  be  no  secures  in  1887?  A. — 1  don't  re- 
niember. 

Q. — Did  yon  speak  to  any  one  to  learn  anylliing  about  seiz- 
ures in  1887?  A. — I  spoke  to  one  nchooner  in  Behring  8e:i  in 
1887. 

Q.— What  scliooner  was  that?  A.— The  "Mary  Taylor,"  1 
believe. 

Q. — l>id  tliey  lell  you  anything  about  seizures  or  warnings 
in  Beliring  Sea?    A. — No. 

Q. — The  only  reason  you  left  in  1887  was  l>ecause  of  the 
seizures  of  18S(!?  Is  tiiat  so?  A. — The  reason  I  left  was 
because  I  suitposed  they  wotild  b<  seizing  schooners  the  samt; 
as  the  year  before. 

Q. — What  did  you  go  there  for?      A. — I  went  to  get  seals. 

Q. — And  without  liaving  heard  of  any  seizures  in  1887,  or 
any  warnings,  you  came  iiome?    A. — I  came  home. 

Q. — Having  gone  there  to  get  seals  you  left  early  in  August, 
on  the  luth  of  August,  b.eause  you  were  afraid  you  wonld 
be  seized?  A. — If  I  had  been  where  I  thought  I  was,  fur- 
ther to  the  westward,  I  wouldn't  have  come  home  so  soon. 
That  was  the  reason.  I  was  a  little  further  to  the  eastward 
than  I  thought  1  was,  when  the  weather  cleared. 

Q. — Is  it  not  a  matter  of  fact  that  you  came  home  because 
the  weal  her  was  rough?      A. — No,  no. 

Q. — And  that  you  could  not  catch  any  ^oi\\H  because  of 
northwesters?  A. — We  generally  get  good  weather  there  In 
August. 

Q. — What  kind  of  weather  were  yon  getting  wlii-n  you  left? 
A. — The  weatluT  wasn't  so  very  bad,  but  it  wasn't  fit  sealing 
weather;  hadn't  l)een  for  a  day  or  two. 

Q. — How  long  had  it  be<'n  unfit  sealing  wc'ather?  A. — 
May  have  been  a  day  or  two. 

Q. — Did  it  get  any  lu'ttrr  while  you  were  in  the  Sea?  A. 
— It  didn't  take  me  very  long  to  get  out.  I  was  out  the  next 
day,  because  I  was  chwe  to  the  pass. 

Q. — And  you  want  the  Commissioners  to  understand,  do 
you,  that  you  left  in  August,  August  IRth,  1887?  A.— That 
was  the  last  day  I  hunted,  llie  inth  of  August. 

Q.— When  did  you  leave?      A.— I  left  on  the  17th. 

(J. — And  you  want  the  ('ommissioners  to  understand  that 
you  left  on  the  17th  for  fear  of  being  seized?     A. — Yes. 

Q. — And  the  only  i-i>ason  you  had  for  that  was  because 
there  were  seizures  in  18S(>?  A. — Yes,  and,  as  I  toTd  yon. 
I  was  a  little  further  to  the  eastward  of  this  volcano,  and  if 
I  had  been  to  tin*  westward  of  the  v<»hano  I  wouldn't  haTC 
come  out   for  two  or  three  weeks. 


lo 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


297 

Q. — You  won,'  not  over  to  the  eastward  of  the  volcano  for 
fear  of  revenue  cuttei-s,  were  you?  A. — No,  but  I  was  more 
in  tlie  track  of  curters  there. 

Q. — And  you  had  not  heard  a  word  of  there  being  a  cutter 
in  tlie  Sea  in  1887?      A.— No,  I  hadn't  heard. 

Q. — If  the  seuling  was  k<>o«1  on  the  17tli,  why  didn't  you 

run  out  of  that  coursi'  by  the  volcano  and  pet  out  of  tlie 
traclt  of  tlie  cutters?  A. — I  had  to  stand  to  the  eastward  to 
set  back  to  the  westward. 

Q. — A  northwesterly  wind?  A. — It  might  have  been  a 
little  northwesterly. 

Q. — A  little  north  of  west,  was  it  not?  A. — I  don't  know; 
I  can't  tell  you  exactly. 

Q. — Do  you  know  where  your  log  is  for  1S87?  A. — I  didn't 
keep  any  log;  the  nmte  couldn't  write,  and  I  didn't  keep  any. 

Q. — Kept  nothing  but  the  sealing  account?  A. — Just  the 
Healing  account. 

Q. — And  how  large  a  book  did  you  keep  that  on?  A. — A 
hook  about  the  size  of  this  one  I  have  got  in  my  pocket.  (In- 
tlicating.) 

Q. — You  came  around  the  Horn  in  the  "Pathfluder,"  and 
there  was  but  one  ship  for  sale  that  year  in  the  port,"  was 
there?      A. — That  is  all  I  can  remember  that  was  for  sale. 

(i. — Were  yo«i  sent  to  Nova  Hcotia  to  buy  the  "Pathflnd- 

•  r"?      A. — No,  I  was  in  Nova  Scotia  when  Mr.  Munsie  came 
to  buy  it. 

Q. — Did  you  help  buy  it?  A. — No,  I  had  nothing  to  do 
with  buying  it. 

Q. — Do  you  know  what  she  cost?  A. — I  do  not.  I  don't 
know  what  Mr.  Munsie  paid  for  it. 

Q. — You  brought  her  around;  Munsie  didn't  come  with 
you?      A.— I  did. 

Q. — What  did  it  cost  to  bring  her  around?  Well,  I  don't 
know  what  the  bills  were,  I  didn't  see  tlie  bills. 

Q. — After  bringing  the  "Pathfinder"  around,  did  you  go  up 
the  coast  at  all?    A. — Up  this  coast. 

Q.— Yes?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — Take  any  supplies  up  there?  A. — You  mean  did  I  go 
in  for  supplies. 

Q. — No.  Did  you  take  any  up  there  and  land  any?  Do 
you  know  where  Cliatelet  is?  A. — New  Chatelet  is  on  the 
west  coast  of  Vancouver  Island  here. 

Q. — Did  you  ever  take  any  su])plies  there  for  Mr.  Munsie? 
A. — No.  I  never  did. 

Q. — Do  you  know  wliat  vessels  Munsie  owned  and  controll- 
ed in  1S8(>?  A. — Well,  I  don't  know.  I  heard  he  owned  the 
"I'arolena." 

(i.— And  the  "Pathfinder"?      A.— And  the  "Pathflndi  r." 

Q. — And  so  far  as  the  "Pathfinder"  was  conc«>rncd,  in  18S(; 
von  took  no  supplies  and  landed  tliem  at  Oliateh't?  A. — No, 
I  wasn't  on  the  coast  at  all. 

ii. — Did  you  bring  around  salt  for  tnillast  from  Nova  Sco- 
tia?     A.— (hi  the  "Pathfinder"? 

g.— Yes?      A.— No. 

(■l- — Wliat  was  your  ballast?  A. — We  had  rock — stone;  I 
d«in't  think  we  had  any  salt  in. 

Q. — What  kind  of  guns  did  you  liave  on  the  "Pathfinder"? 
•\. — I  tliink  we  had  the  (Ireener  gun;  I  am  not  certain;  an 
Kii^iiHli  gun. 

(i.— How  many?  A. — We  had  five  puns;  we  may  have  liad 
i)ne  Hjiare  gun;  we  liad  six  shot  guns,  I  think,  on  board,  and 
some  ri(i(>s.      I  don't  know  liow  many. 

<i— Wliat  kind  of  iin".<*  did  you  say?  .\. — I  think  we  had 
lui  Kiiglish  gun.  and  if  I  renu  niber  right  I  think  they  were  the 

•  incner  gun. 

(^— How  m.nny  did  you  have?      A.— Had  six  altogether, 
ti.—  And  when  did  you  fake  (liose  on  lioard?      A. — We  took 
llieii.  on  board  here  in  Victoria. 


MMjlJfl'-iTHil!  I!  I.I  J  HP 


:|l' 


Ul'ld    i 


29S 

Q.— In  1S.S0?      A.— In  1S>«0,  vok. 

{}. — And  what  tiin*'  did  yon  Umvc  for  tin-  S«'ii  in  ISSfi? 
A.— 1  left  iM'it'  tlu'  4tli  day  of  Ma.v. 

Q. — Wli.v  are  yon  ho  jiositive  about  that  date?  A. — Well,  I 
ronienibtT  distinctly  it  was  the  4th  of  May  I  left  here. 

Q. — How  do  you  fix  it?  A. — Well,  I  eanie  in  here  the  17th 
day  of  April;  I  remember  that  distinctly. 

Q. — And  took  supplies  on  board?  A. — After  doing  stmie 
repairs  for  the  vessel,  took  on  supplies,  jfot  ready  and  startinl. 
10  Q- — I>id  .v«u  take  your  guns  (m  after  arriving  here  in  May? 
A. — Yes,  everything  was  taken  on  here. 

Q. — How  many  guns  did  y«)u  take  on?  A. — 1  have  told 
you  already;  six  shot  guns. 

Q. — Did  you  take  :iny  off  and  deliver  to  the  "Oarolena"? 
A. — \o,  I  never  saw  the  "Carolena"  at  all;  I  have  never  seen 
that  vessel. 

Q. — Delivered  no  suppli«'s  to  tlie  "Carolena"?      A. — No. 

Q. — Do  you  know  anything  about  what  those    shot    guns 

were  wortli?      A. — No,  I  don't  know  what  they  were  worth. 

20       Q. — You  never  knew  of  any  delivery  of  any  guns,  rifles  and 

phot  from  the  "Pathfinder"  to  the  "Carolena,"  did  von?      A. 

—No. 

Q. — Were  you  on  board  of  her  from  the  time  she  canu' 
around  the  Horn  from  Nova  Weotia  as  hei'  nmster?  A. — 
Yes. 

Q. — All  the  while  as  her  master?  A. — Yes,  until  she  camo 
back  here  from  Behring  Sea. 

Re-direct  examination. 

30  Q. — You  knew  from  the  year  1X8(!  what  the  track  of  the 
"evenuo  cutter  was  pretty  well?  A. — I  knew  about  where  they 
had  seized  those  vtssels  a  year  before. 

Q. — And  that  was,  generally?  A. — The  track  between 
Ounalaska  and  St.  George's  Island. 

Q. — How  far  to  the  east  of  where  you  were?  A. — Well.  I 
could  tell  probably  by  overhauling  tliis  chart;  I  wouldn't  be 
to  the  westward  of  Ounalaska  over  «!(>  mil»s,  I  don't  think, 
perhaps  not  tluit. 

Q. — Generally  sp(>aking,  how  far  from  the  track  between 
4°  Ounalaska  and  St.  George's  Island?  A. — I  wasn't  more  than 
8n  or  40  miles  10  the  westward  of  that  track. 

Q. — And  with  the  wind  as  blowing  you  would  have  had  to 
make  a  long  tack  to  the  eastward  to  get  around  Bogusloff? 
A. — I  would. 

Re-cross-examination: 


50 


Q. — I  would  like  to  ask  you  if  you  know  the  price  of  these 
guns.  A. — I  really  don't.  Mr.  Muusie  lu'ver  told  me.  1 
know  what  they  are  now. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  jmrt  yf  the  United  States: — Mr. 
Hodwell,  will  vou  please  tell  m«'  how  luanv  boats  he  says  he 
had? 

Witness: — I  had  live  sealifig  bonis  and  a  small  stern  boat. 

Q. — In  1SS7?  A.— In  1SH7  six  regular  hunting  boats  and 
no  stern  boat. 


60 


Emile  Ramlase  was  called  ;is  a   witness  on  the  part  of 
Great  Britain  and  duly  sworn. 

Direct  examination  by  Air.  Biqne; 

Q. — Where  do  you  reside  now?      A. — Victoria. 
Q.— Were  you  in  Behring  Sea  in  ISSfi?     A.— I  was. 
Q.— On  wliat   vessel?       A.— "ThereHsi." 


Uf 


10 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


299 

Q. — lu  what  enpucily?      A. — Itoat  rower. 

Q. — Who  was  ilui  master  of  tlie  vessel?      A. — White. 

Q. — Where  is  lie  to  be  found  now,  do  you  know?  A. — I 
don't  know  where  he  is. 

(J. — He  is  not  in  Victoria?      A, — He  is  not  in  Victoria. 

(}. — And  has  not  be(?u  for  several  years?  A. — Not  that  I 
know  of. 

ii. — And  who  was  the  mate?  A. — I  forget  his  name.  t 
have  not  seen  him  since. 

Q. — How  many  boats  had  yoii?  A. — We  had  five  boats 
and  a  stern  boat. 

Q. — A  white  or  an  Indian  crew?      A. — Wliite  crew. 

Q. — When  did  yon  commence  sealing  in  Behring  Sea  in 
1886?  A. — As  near  as  I  can  remember,  I  believe  about  the 
2Mith  of  June  is  about  the  first  day  we  got  anv  seals  to  speak 
of. 

Q. — And  how  long  did  you  remain  in  the  Sea  sealing?  A. 
—If  I  renu'rber  right,  we  left  on  the  25th  of  August. 

g.— Why  did  yon  leave  on  the  2.^th  of  August?  A. — I 
don't  know.      I  suppose  that  was  the  end  of  the  trip. 

i}. — Do  you  remember  liow  many  seals  were  caught  in  Beh- 
ring  Sea  by  your  crew  in  that  year?  A. — I  believe  2,100 
al)out;  perhaps  a  few  more  or  less.  I  wouldn't  be  certain; 
it  is  over  2,(MtO  any  how. 

Q.— In  Behring  Sea?      A.— In  Behring  Sea;  yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  did  not  keep  any  book?      A. — I  did  not. 

Q. — You  did  not  keep  any  record  of  the  catch?  A. — Not 
at  all. 

Q.— You  say  you  remained  until  tlie  25th  of  August?  A.— 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Had  you  good  sealing  until  tlie  25th?  A.— What  I 
should  call  good  sealing. 

Q._l)o  you  know  how  many  days  you  were  out  in  Aiigust? 
A. — I  do  not  remember. 

Q.— Were  you  oiit?      A.— Oh,  yes;  we  were  out, 

Q.— Almost  <>very  day?  A".— No,  I  shouldn't  say  every 
day;  hardly  possible  to  be  out  every  day. 

Q.— Well,  how  nuiny  days  in  tlie  week  on  the  average? 
A.— It  would  be  hard  for  me  to  state.  I  know  we  didn't  have 
any  real  bad  weather  for  the  year;  it  was  wlmt  I  should  call 
a  good  year. 

Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Lansing: 

Q.— Mr.  Ranilase.  liave  you  been  sealing  any  other  years 
besides  1880?      \. — I  have  been  sealing  «'ver  since. 

().— What  vessel  w»'re  you  out  in  in  1887?  A.— I  was  iti 
the  San  Jose. 

Q. — How  many  seals  did  you  get  in  tlie  San  Jose?  A. — 
We  got.  I  beli«>ve,  !)00.  uj)  to  the  time  we  were  seized. 

Q. — In  the  Sea?  A. — In  the  Sea  up  to  the  time  we  were 
seized. 

Q.— And  in  1S,S8?      A.— In  1888  I  was  in  Behring  Sea. 

Q.— What  Vi'Nsel?      A.-In  the  "Alic«'  Seymour." 

The  rommissloner  on  the  part  of  the  Ignited  States: — Do 
you  want  to  open  1888  now? 

Mr.  Lansing: — I  was  simply  testing  his  memory,  that  is  all. 

Tlic  Conimissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — Not 
witli  a  view' of  opening  the  year? 

Mr.  Lansing:— Not  at  all. 

Q. — In  1888  how  many  seals  did  you  take  in  the  Sea?  A. — 
I  think  it  was  about  7ttO;  probably  a  few  over  or  a  few  under, 
!  wouldn't  be  certain. 


!  i 


'J'fMr-.f"'fi>\''^'  "• 


UllMi 


20 


30 


300 

Q. — And  in  1889  what  vcshpI  were  you  on?  A. — On  the 
"Seymour." 

Q. — How  nuuiy  that  year  did  you  take?  A. — 1  tliinlv  some- 
thing over  1,200. 

Q. — Cannot  you  fix  it  a  little  more  aeeurately?  A. — I 
cannot.  I  don't  lieep  no  boolcs,  but  I  Icnow  pretty  near;  it 
was  about  1,200  in  liehring  Sea. 

Q.— How  can  you  fix  it  so  cU>arly  in  188G?      A.— Well,  I 
remember;  I  know  it  was  over  2,000. 
10       Q. — You  were  not  paid  on  any  lay?      A — Yes,  1  was. 

Q. — As  to  the  whole  catcli?    A. — Y«'s,  sir. 

Q. — What  was  your  lay?  A. — My  lay  was  a  04th  of  ev«>ry 
skin  that  came  aboai-d. 

Q. — Do  you  recollect  the  we.ather  in  July  and  August  of 
1886?      A. — Yes,  I  remember  it  to  a  certain  extent. 

Q. — Did  you  have  very  fair  weather  in  July?  A. — I  should 
call  it  fine  weather,  yes. 

Q. — And  fair  weather  in  August?  A. — I  should  call  it  fair 
weather  in  August. 

Q. — Was  it  as  fair  weather  in  August  as  it  was  in  July? 
A. — I  hardly  think  so. 

Q. — It  never  is  as  fair  in  August  as  it  is  in  July,  is  it?  A. 
— I  don't  know.  1  have  seen  very  good  weather  in  August 
since. 

Q. — Was  it  as  fair  weather  in  August  as  in  July? 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — You 
asked  him  if  it  ever  was  as  fair  in  August  as  it  was  in  July? 

Q. — Is  it  ever  as  fair  in  August  as  it  is  in  July  in  the  Sea? 
A. — Possibly  it  is.  I  have  seen  very  good  weather  in  Au- 
gust. 

Q. — Have  you  seen  as  good  weather  in  August  as  in  July, 
as  many  good  sealing  davs?  A. — Well,  I  wouldn't  be  cer- 
tain. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  T'nited  States: — You 
mean  the  average,  do  you,  Mr.  Lansing? 

Mr.  Lansing: — The  average. 

Witness: — I  wouldn't  be  certain  of  that.  I  never  counted 
it  up,  or  anything  like  it. 

(J. — But  yon  say  that  in  188(1  tlie  weather  was  not  as  good 
in  August?  A. — I  don't  believe  it  was.  I  think  we  had 
better  weather  in  July. 

Q. — You  used  toxica ve  the  Sea  between  the  20th  and  the 
25th  of  August,  did  you,  in  those  years?  A. — That  year  we 
left  the  25tli,  I  am  almost  sure  we  did. 

Q. — When  did  you  stop  sealing  in  August?  A. — What 
year? 

Q. — In  1880?  A. — Well,  as  near  as  1  can  remember  a  few 
days  before  that,  probably  a  couple  of  days. 

Q. — Then  you  left  on  account  of  what?  A. — The  vessel 
wasn't  fitted  out  for  a  long  cruise;  she  wasn't  very  well  pro- 
visioned going  home. 

Q. — Did  you  have  any  bad  weather?      A.— (Joing  home? 

Q. — No.      A. — Not  what  I  should  call  bad  weathei*. 

Q. — How  many  days  in  August  did  you  seal?  A. — I  could 
not  tell.      I  didn't  keep  no  account. 

Q._Well,  you  coudn't  tell  as  to  July?  A.— No,  I  couldn't 
tell  as  to  July  either. 

Q. — But  the  weather  wasn't  as  good  in  August  as  it  was 
in  Julv?  A. — Well,  I  don't  know.  I  am  not  certain  of 
that. 


40 


50 


60 


Re-direct  examination: 

Q. — You  were  paid  by  the  skin,  I  believe? 
on  n  lay. 


A. — I  was  paid 


30I 


10 


Q.— WuH  it  oil  the  (juanfity  of  skins  lalteu?      A. — Yes. 

Mr.  Ditkinsou: — Ono  skin  every  04  is  a  04tb  lay,  I  under- 
Ktand?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  you  were  interested,  therefore,  in  keeping  a  re- 
( ord  of  tlie  quantity  of  seals  that  had  been  taken?  A. — Of 
course  it  was  to  my  int(?rest. 

Q. — You  were  asked  as  to  your  being  in  IJehring  Sea  in 
1SS7,  and  you  said  tliat  you  were  in  the  San  Jose?  A. — Jn 
the  San  Jose. 

Q. — How  many  boats  had  you  on  the  San  Jose?  A. — Four 
iind  a  small  stern  boat. 

Q. — There  is  a  question  I  should  have  asked  on  the  direct 
examination:  where  did  you  seal  in  ISSfi,  in  what  part  of 
Mt'iiring  Sea?      A. — WM,  I  couldn't  say  for  sure. 

Q. — Looking  at  th-i  map,  would  you  be  able  to  show  the 
Itlace  where  you  sealed?  A. — The  only  thing  I  can  remem- 
Ix'r  about  it  is  Ihat  I  saw  Bogusloff  on  several  occasions. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — The 
question  is  whether  you  can,  by  looking  at  the  map,  point 
out  where  you  were  sealing. 

Mr.  Bodwell: — Can  you  see  on  the  map  about  where  you 
were?  A. — I  tould  not.  I  seen  I'.ogusloflf  on  several  occa- 
sions. 

Q. — Then  you  were  not  far  from  this  island?      A. — I  saw  it 
on  several  occasions. 
Q. — At  about  what  distance  wer<  you  from  the  island?  A. 
3°  —Oh,  probably  40  miles — 30  miles. 


20 


40 


(lustave  Hansen  was  called  as  a  witness  on  the  part  of 
(Jreat  Britain  and  duly  sworn. 

Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Bodwell: 

ii. — Your  name  is  Gustave  Hansen?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i. — You  are  a  master  mariner?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

(.]. — Have  you  been  sealing?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — How  long?      A. — Been  sealing  since  1880. 

Q. — Were  you  in  Behring  Sea  in  the  year  1S86?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q. — On  a  sealing  voyage?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

(l. — On  what  vessel?      A. — The  schooner  "Adele." 

Q. — As  master?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

^i— Where  did  you  sail  from?  A. — In  1S8G  I  sailed  from 
N'ictoria. 

Q.— What  was  the  "Adele,"  a  British  vessel?  A.— A  Ger- 
man. 

Q. — Wliat  number  of  boats  and  hunters  had  you?  A. — 
In  ISHfi  I  had  three  boats. 

(i.— What  kind  of  hunters?      A.— White  men. 

<i- — Wliat  lime  did  you  go  into  Behring  Sea?  A. — 1  don't 
it'ineniber;  I  tliink  it  was  on  the  27th  or  28th  of  June. 

ii. — Do  you  remember  what  time  in  the  year  you  began  to 
iH'i  Ncals?      A. — Began  in  July. 

(i.— How  long  did  you  stay  in  the  Sea?  A. — To  the  2nd  of 
.\ii};iin'  1  started  back. 

ti- — Wliat  was  the  occasion  of  that?  A. — There  were  four 
luliooners  of  us  together,  and  three  of  them  got  seized  and 
I  was  the  only  one  that  escaped. 

Q.— Y(»u  left?      A.— I  set  sail. 

Q.— How  many  seals  did  you  have  uj)  to  that  time?  A. — 
1  don't  rememlM'r;  1  think  I  had  at  that  time  somewhere  near 
'•'•(t,  and  the  whole  season  1140.     I  got  some  on  the  coast. 

<i.— Von  had  taken  a  few  on  the  const?      A. — Yes. 

'i— Wheie  did  you  s«'al.  in  what  part  of  the  Sea?  A. — 
-Miont  eight  or  <<  n  days  I  had  line  weather  and  was  doing 


I    i  I'll 


ii<i 


iiiw< 


w 


UlMi 


i02 

well.       I  was  huntiiiK  in.vni'lf.       I  (li<lii*t  takr  any    obwrva- 
(ioiiH;  I  s»»'t'  land  quilo  a  diHtani-o  off. 

ti. — Can  you  ti'll  us  about  wIum-o  you  wew  wlitn  you  start- 
t'd  for  lionio?  A. — I  was  not  a  y^viKxt  way  from  tho  "Caro- 
Kua"  and  the  otlier  boats. 

Q. — Wore  they  all  together  when  seized?  A. — No,  in  the 
afternoon  1  seen  a  vessel  up  to  the  windward,  kind  of  a  picu- 
liar  position,  and  I  couldn't  make  out  what  she  was  doiu};.  I 
neen  what  I  found  out  afterwards  was  the  "Thornton"  and 
lO  the  "Carolina."  She  ninde  luiiis  about  her  as  thout^h  she 
was  taking  uj)  her  boats  sxnd  canoes.  During  the  night  I  set 
a  jib  for  two  or  three  Iiours  and  stood  to  tlie  westward. 

Q. — Did  you  go  out  in  1887?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — In  what  schooner?      A. — The  same  one,  the  "Adele." 

Q. — At  the  time  you  left  for  home,  when  the  "Onward," 
"Thornton"  and  "Carolena"  were  seized,  were  you  in  good 
sealing  ground?  A. — Yes,  the  best  I  had  been  in  for  some 
time.  I  was  getting  from  50  to  80  sea's  a  day  with  three 
boats,  shooting  with  rifles. 
20  Q. — How  was  the  weather  up  to  the  middle  of  July  that 
year?      A. — We  had  variable  weather  to  the  middle  of  July. 

Q. — Now,  then,  you  were  out  in  1887  you  say,  with  the  same 
boat?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  with  what  hunters?     A. — 1  had  Indians. 

Q. — How  many?      A. — I  had  six  canoes  and  my  boat. 

Q. — Did  you  go  to  Behring  Sea  that  year?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — When  did  you  go  there?  A. — I  got  there,  I  think, 
in  the  first  part  of  July;  might  have  been  the  first  or  second. 

Q. — What  time  did  you  leave?      A. — I  left  in  the  begin- 
30  uing  of  August. 

Q. — Why  did  you  leave  in  the  beginning  of  August  that 
year?      A. — Because  there  were  too  many  seizures  going  on. 

Q. — Tell  us  exactly?  A. — I  spoke  the  "Mary  Taylor"  and 
the  captain  wanted  to  know  if  I  knew  it  was  true  that  the 
schooners  were  seized.  I  said  I  hadn't  heard  so,  but  I  got 
kind  of  suspicious,  and  I  bore  to  the  eastward  and  made  Bris- 
tol Bay.  I  spoke  another  schooner  and  was  asked  if  they 
had  been  aboard  of  me.  I  said  no.  He  asked  me  how  many 
seals  I  had;  I  said  I  had  about  1200;  and  he  told  me  I  had 
40   better  get   >ut  if,  I  could. 

Q — \Vere  the  Indians  frightened  or  not?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Refused  to  stay?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

i}. — How  mauy  seals  did  vou  have?  A. — I  had  a  little  over 
12(»0. 

Q. — Did  vou  get  any  outside  of  the  Sea  that  year?  A. — 
Yes. 

Q. — How  many?       A. — I  d<«i't  remember. 

rross-examination  by  Mr.  Warren. 

Q.— How  many  boats  did  vou  have  in  1880?  A.— In  '80 
we  had  three  boats. 

Q. — Any  stern  boat?  A. — No,  only  three  boats,  three  pro- 
per boats,  hunting  boats. 

Q. — And  how  many  men  in  a  boat  hunting?  A. — Three 
men  in  a  boat. 

Q. — You  say  you  took  how  many  seals  in  Behring  Sea  that 
year?  A.— Well,  I  can't  exactly  tell;  I  think  I  had  104  on 
the  coast,  and  I  got  the  rest  in  Behring  Sea.  I  had  1140  for 
the  season. 
(5o  (i. — Did  you  state  that  you  thought  you  got  000  in  Behring 
Sea?  A. — Yes,  air,  a  little  «»ver  000;  I  don't  remember  be- 
cause the  log  was  lost. 

Q. — Did  you  ever  make  a  statement  to  the  British  ('ommis- 
sloners  that  you  caught  005  during  the  whole  of  that  year? 
A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — You  had  the  same  boat  here  in  1887  with  six  canoes? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

ii. — How  many  Indians  in  a  caii«»e?  A. — Two  men  in  each 
canoe. 


50 


lO 


303 

Q  — And  ouo  boat  bimiduM?      A. — Vi'h. 

(j. — Did  you  hunt  in  tliut  buat?  A. — Yoh,  I  bunted  in  tbut 
boat. 

(i. — Wvro  you  out  often?      A. — Yes,  quite. 

Q. — You  not  liow  nmnv  Hkins  that  year?  A. — Altogether 
I  had  i:n2. 

(i. — Did  you  ever  inalte  a  statement  to  the  liritinh  ('omniis- 
siouers  tluit  vou  got  (iJU)  in  Behring  Sea?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q.— And  720  on  tlie  coast?      A.— No,  sir. 

Q. — Is  that  a  pntper  division  of  your  catch?  A. — No,  sir, 
I  never  said  no  sueh  tiling. 

ti. — I  asked  von  if  that  was  a  projier  division  of  the  catch? 
A.— In  1HS(>? 

Q.— 1SS7?  In  1H87  got  i:U2  wals,  720  on  the  coast,  and 
(i:{0  in  the  Sea.  Is  that  a  proper  divlKion  of  tlie  catch?  A. — 
No.  I  got  most  in  Ilehring  Sea,  only  a  fev/  on  the  West  Coast. 

The  Commissioners  then  rose. 


»;,,  ;;3'i^ 


ii  ! 


Oommissioners  under  the  Convention   of  February  8,  1896,  Between 
Great  Britain  and  the  United  States  of  America 

Chambers  of  the  Legislative  Assembly, 

At  Victoria,  December  9,  1896. 

At  10:.'{0  a.m.  the  Commissioners  took  their  scats. 

30  Mr.  Modwell: — I  wish  to  present  to  the  Commissioners  an 
alKstract  sliowing  the  catch  of  seals  in  August,  188G,  by  the 
schooner  "Mary  Ellen."      It  is  as  follows: 

Abstract  showing  the  catch  of  seals  in  August,  188G,  by 
schooner  "Mary  Ellen."' 

Jacobsen 220 

De  Fries I75 

.Julian 231 

iQ           Lorenzo 17!» 

Dillon 15a 

Stern  boat 47 

lOOS 
tiaffed  from  the  schooner 1 

100(i 
Less  three  taken  by  Jacobsen  outside  of  Sea. ..       '<l 

io  ioo;{ 

The  following  seals  were  taken  on  the  1st  August: 

Jacobsen 23 

De  Fries 40 

Julian 35 

Lorenzo 28 

Dillon 12 

To(al 138 

f-jQ           Total  number  of  seals  taken  during  month. ..  .1003 
Deduct  number  taken  August  1 138 

Total 865 

This  is  subject  to  our  argument  as  to  what  the  effei-t  may 
lie. 

.Mr.   refers: — While  we  are  waiting  for  a  witness  I  shall 
pnl  in  some  docuuu'nts  which  have  to  be  put  in  evidence. 


w 


!fra''?n 


Mi«lii>i 


304 

Tlu'  first  \h  tlie  ivcord  of  the  proci't'diiigH  iu  the  vane  of  the 
I'nited  States  vs.  JitiueH  Ogllvie,  master  of  the  "Caroh-na." 
This  is  a  certified  copy. 

Document  received  and  marlvcd  Exhibit  19  O.  B.,  Claim 
No.  1. 

Mr.  Dicliinson: — We  reserve  our  objection  to  any  claims 
for  damages  on  belialf  of  James  Ogilvio.  Do  your  Honours 
wish  to  hear  the  argument  on  timt  point  now? 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — Would 
you  kindly  state  the  ground? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — The  ground  of  objection  is  that  Ogilvie 
has  departed  this  life  and  whate\er  claim  he  would  have  at 
law  would  die  with  him.  The  st>cond  objection  is  that  it  al- 
ready appears  that  ho  was  convicted  of  a  technical  violation 
of  the  United  States  law  by  ..  court  of  general  jurisdiction. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — The 
20  Commissioners  think  that  their  decision  on  this  question  had 
better  be  reserved  until  final  argument. 


10 


Mr.  Dickinson: 
fore  conviction. 


-I  think  in  the  case  of  Ogilvie,  he  died  be- 


30 


40 


SO 


60 


Mr.  Peters: — I  think  they  estreated  his  bail  when  he  was 
dead.      This  exhibit  19  of  course  recjuires  to  be  printed. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — It  will  be 
printed  of  course. 

Mr.  Peters: — There  are  two  facts  which  I  wish  recorded  in 
the  notes.  The  first  is  that  when  the  information  was  filed 
against  him  he  was  held  on  ball  to  api)ear,  and  the  second  is 
that  he  did  appear  by  counsel  and  that  counsel  was  Mr. 
Clark. 

I  wish  to  put  in  a  similar  record  in  the  case  of  the  United 
States  vs.  James  lilake.  The  remark  is  also  applicable  to 
that,  that  the  party  a}>peared  by  counsel  and  that  counsel  was 
air.  Clark. 

Document  received  and  marked  Exhibit  No.  20,  G.  B.  Claim 
No.  1. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — The  same  objection  will  be  raised  as  to 
Blake,  your  Honours,  he  having  departed  this  life. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  wish  to  put  in  as  exhibits  the  following 
charts.  They  are  in  the  ordinary  copy  of  the  United  States 
reprint,  but  not  separate  from  the  book.  This  is  the  only 
copy  I  have  of  them  in  this  form.  I  may  say  that  tliese  are 
all  authentic  documents  issued  by  the  .Ignited  States. 

Sir  Charles  Tapper: — These  are  the  actual  documents  pre- 
sented by  the  United  States  Government  to  the  British  Gov- 
ernment. 

Mr.  Peters: — 1  wish  to  jiut  in  to  be  fih'd  the  following: 
"The  Cruises  of  United  States  Vessels,  July  15th,  August 
15th,  1S91." 

Document  received  and  marked  Exhibit  21,  G.  B.  Claim 
No.  1. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  also  wish  to  put  in  Chart  No.  6,  which  is 
the  sealing  chart. 

Document  received  and  marked  Exhibit  22,  G.  B.  Claim 
No.  1. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  also  wish  to  put  in  a~chart  which  is  in  the 
American  reprint,  Vol.  2,  between  pages  574  and  575.      This 


305 

Ih  alHu  iHHUfd  by  the  Uiiitt-tl  Ktat«>K  iuithuriti«*H  and  purports 
to  b»'  "The  CruiHe  of  the  Itritinh  Hchoouer  Ada,  from  Victo- 
ria, in  Uehring  Sea.  Season  of  1S«7.  Talien  from  tlie  \og." 
Tliere  is  ajtpended  to  this  cliart  the  following  certificate:  "I 
certify  tlmt  tliis  map  was  prepared  at  tlie  Vuited  States 
Coast  and  <leodetic  Survey  OtHce,  and  is  correct  according  to 
the  latest  autlioiities.  And  tlmt  tlie  ]K)siti<»ns  of  the  schooner 
"Ada"  are  as  plott«'d  from  the  latitude  and  longitude  as 
given  in  her  log  (seized  and  now  in  possession  of  the  United 
10  States)  at  the  end  of  the  sea  day. 

"The  number  of  seals  taken  daily  is  also  copied  from  said 


log. 


'(Signed)  T.  V.  MEKDEXHALL, 

"Superintendent." 


20 


40 


Document  offered  in  evidence  and  numbered  Exhibit  23, 
O.  B.  Claim-  No.  1. 

Mr.  Peters: — At  this  point  I  would  ask  my  learned  friend 
if  he  has  that  original  log  ref»»rred  to?      A. — We  have. 

Mr.  Peters: — Will  you  produce  it? 

Mr.  Lansing: — We  will  on  the  case. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — If  it  is  competent  I  think  we  will  let  my 
learned  friend  have  it. 

Mr.  Peters: — Mr.  Lansing  says  he  has  the  original  log,  and 
I  think  we  ought  to  have  it. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — My  associate  had  no  intention  of  saying 
you  could  not  have  it.  Reserving  the  question  of  its  com- 
petency in  the  "Carolena '  case,  you  may  have  it  at  any  time 
and  keep  it.  The  point  my  associate  intended  to  make  was 
that  it  was  not  relevant  to  the  case  of  the  "Carolena."  I 
desire  to  call  attention  to  chart  1,  which  is  the  cruise  of  the 
cutters  of  the  T'nited  States  in  18!)1.  Therefore  t'-at  is  not 
competent.  Cliart  6  is  the  sealing  ground  in  IH.  .:,  and  we 
submit  that  they  have  no  relevancy  to  the  issues  in  1880 
when  the  "Carolena"  was  in  the  Sea. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States : — These 
(piestions  will  all  be  reserved. 

Mr.  Peters: — Have  you  the  log  of  the  "Mary  Ellen"  for 
1SS7  and  also  for  1880? 

Mr.  Warren: — We  have  not  either  one. 


Mr.  Peters: 

or  1887? 


-Have  you  the  log  of  the  "Favourite"  for  188G 


Mr.  Warren: — We  have  not. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  wish  to  put  in  evidence  another  chart  also, 
which  will  be  found  in  Volume  2,  United  States  R<'print,  be- 
1\ve<'n  pages  r>'M)  and  ti'M.  This  is  in  the  case  of  the  T^nited 
States  at  Paris,  and  it  is  hegdi'd  "Cruise  of  the  United  States 
Scliooncr  "Annie,"  from  San  Francisco,  in  Hehring  Sea,  Sea- 
son of  1S87."  It  is  certified  as  follows: 

"I  certify  that  this  map  was  pn'pared  at  the  United  States 
''oast  and  (leodetic  Survey  Office,  and  is  correct  according  to 
'^'^  (lie  latest  authorities.  And  tiiat  the  positions  of  the  scho«m- 
cr  Annie  are  plotted  from  the  latitude  and  longitude  as  given 
in  the  log  (seized  and  now  in  the  possesion  of  the  Ignited 
States)  at  the  end  of  the  sea  day. 

"The  number  of  seals  taken  daily  is  also  cojded  from  the 
said  log." 

"(Signed)  T.  C.  MENDENHALL. 

"Superintendent." 
20 


ijp:!'''""' 


lO 


306 

Mr.  IV'ttTH: — TIh'I'i'  \h  1m»(1i  tlu'  I'ariH  iMi{;iii|j;  on  tlim  v«>luiii<' 
nud  also  tlic  paKiuK  of  the  ri'print. 

I)(»ounient  offered  in  evidence  and  numbered  Exhibit  24, 
O.  B.  Claim  No. 

Mr.  Peters: — Have  yoa  the  log  of  tlie  Annie? 

Mr.  LanHing: — We  believe  we  have. 

Mr.  Peters: — Have  yon  any  objection  to  produce  it  later 
on? 

Mr.  Lansing: — Not  at  all. 

Mr.  Peters: — 1  refer  to  another  clinrt,  which  will  be  found 
in  Vol.  2,  United  Htates  Reju-int,  b«>twei'n  imgeH  524  and  r»2r). 
It  is  headed  "(.'ruise  »»f  the  United  States  schooner  "Ellen," 
from  San  PranciHeo.  in  Kehrin;;  Sea,  season  of  1SS7."  And 
it  contains  the  foll«)wing  certificate: 

"I  certify  tlmt  this  nuiji  was  itrejiared  at  the  T'nited  States 
20  Coast  and  (^Jeodctic  Survey  OlHce,  and  is  correct  according 
to  the  latest  autliorities.  And  that  tlie  ]iositions  of  the 
schooner  "Ellen"  are  plotted  from  the  latitude  and  longitudt* 
as  given  in  her  log  (seized  and  now  in  possession  of  the  Unit- 
ed States)  at  the  end  of  the  sen  day. 

"The  number  of  seails  taken  daily  is  also  copied  from  said 
log. 

(Signed)  "T.  C.  MENDENnALL, 

"Superintendent." 

30       Mr.  Peters: — Have  you  the  original  log  of  the  "Ellen?" 

Mr.  Lansing'— We  have. 

Mr.  Peters: — Will  you  produce  it? 

Mr.  Lansing:— We  will. 

Document  otTered  in  evidence  and  numbered  Exiiibit  25, 
CJ.  n.  Claim  No.  1. 


40 


Mi'd 


SO 


Alexander  Ueppen  was  called  as  a  witness  on  behalf  of 
Great  Britain  and  duly  sworn. 

Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Beique: 

Q. — Where  do  you  reside,  Mr.  Kejipen?      A. —  In  Victoria. 

CJ. — Were  you  sealing  in  188(»?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — On  what  scho4)ner?      A. — The  schooner  "Grace." 

ii. — In  what  rajtacity?      A. — I  was  mate. 

Q. — Wlio  was  the  master  of  the  schooner?  A. — Captain 
Jordan. 

i}. — Do  you  know  wlieve  Captain  Jordan  is  to  be  found 
now?      A. — Xo,  I  do  not  at  the  present  time. 

Q. — How  long  is  ir  since  you  have  seen  him?  A. — It  is 
three  years  now  since  I  saw  liini. 

Q. — He  d»M'8  not  reside  in  tins  province  as  fas  as  you  know? 
60   A.— Xo,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  seal  in  Behring  Sea  during  1S8()?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q.Did  you  seal  on  board  that  schooner,  tlie  "Grace?"  A. 
— Y«'s,  sir. 

Q. — What  was  hei-  crew?      A. — Her  crew  weri>  Indians. 

Q. — How  many?       \. — Her  crew  consisted  of  22  Indians. 

Q. — How  ma  ay  canoes  or  boats?  A. — Eleven  canoes  and 
one  boat. 


307 


;|»M! 


A.— No, 


t^.— That  wiiH  <1k'  nt«'rii  bout?       A. — Ves,  nir. 
(2. — Tli«'  Htt'rn  boat  wa«  for  your  uhc,  I  HiipitoHo? 
not  for  mint';  t  uovor  wt'ut  out. 
i.1 — Who  UHotl  the  Htorn  bout?      A. — The  ongini'vr. 
t^. — Was  it  RiMU'rally  iu  hho  by  the  engineer?    A. — No,  ou?y 
oct-iiHionally. 

(2. — When  (li<l  you  enter  Itehring  Sea,  do  you  n'Uieniber? 
A. — \fi  far  aH  I  can  remember,  we  entered  Itehriug  Hea  on 
tlie  4th  or  r>th  of  .Inly. 
10       ii. — And  wlu'U  did  you  leave  the  Itehriug  Hea?      A.— We 
left  on  the  14th  or  jrjth  of  AuguHt. 

Q. — Why  did  yoti  leave  on  the  14th  or  15th  of  August?  A. 
— Well,  the  IndiauH  \vanti>d  to  go  home. 

(J. — Did  they  object  to  remaining  any  longer?  A. — Yen, 
I  hey  were  afraid,  T  think.  They  objected  to  staying  any 
longer. 

(i. — They  were  not  used  to  going  to  nehring  Sea,  I  sujtpose? 
.\. — No,  sir. 
(J. — l»id  you  keep  any  record  of  the  daily  catch  in  Itehriug 
20   Sea  for  that  year?       A. — Yes.   I   had  a  memorandum  book 
which  I  kej)t  myself,  but  the  captain  keei)a  the  log. 

Q. — Have  you  that  menioranduni  book?  A. — No,  I  lost 
that  three  years  ago. 

Q. — How  did  you  lose  it?  A. — I  was  wrecked  on  the  west 
coast. 

Q. — Did  the  captain  keep  in  his  log  the  daily  catch,  do  you 
remember?      A. — I  cannot  tell. 

Q. — From  memory  can  you  say  the  number  of  seals  that 
were  taken  during  the  jM-riod  that  you  have  mentioned?     A. 
30  — Some  of  the  largest  catches  I  can  v«'ry  well  remember. 
Q. — What  were  they?      .\. — The  largest  catch  we  had  that 
I  can  remember  was  225. 
Q. — On  the  one  day?      A. — On  the  one  day. 
Q. — Do  you  reniemher  if  that  was  in  July  or  August?      A. 
— It  was  tlu>  beginning  of  August,  I  think. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  what  was  the  total  catch  made  dur- 
ing the  period  you  have  mentioned  in  the  Behring  Sea?     A. 
—We  had  1,700  in  the  Tiehring  Sea. 
(}. — Was  that  1700  exactly?      A. — I  cannot  remember  the 
"^     total  l)ut  th«'re  may  have  been  a  few  more  or  less. 

Q. — Then  you  mean  to  say  that  it  was  about  1700  that  were 
taken  in  Hehring  Sea?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

i}. — Do  you  remember  liow  many  days  the  engineer  went 
out  with  the  stern  boat?      A. — No.  sir. 

{}. — Well,  abont  how  manv?  A. — I  cannot  remember 
that. 

(i. — Would  you  be  able  to  say  iu  what  jmsitiou  your  vessel 

nailed  during  the  months  of  .luly  .ind  .\ugust    of    the    year 

-Q   1SS(!?      A. — So  far  as  I  can  nMucmber,  the  captain  showed 

itie  tile  chart  and  we  were  between  tlie  PribylolT  Islands  and 

Ounalaska. 

(J. — If  you  were  shown  a  chart  as  to  that  would  you  be  able 
to  indicate  a])pro\imately  on  the  chart  where  you  kept?  A. — 
Oh,  yes,  ]U'<>tty  near  it. 

(i. — Point  out  on  the  chart  where  you  were  in  the  moutli  of 
Julv'  A. — I  was  about  55  north  latitude  and  1(!0  and  107 
west  longitude. 
U- — Yon  were  tliere  in  July?  A. — Yes. 
flo  (-i. — In  August  did  you  renmin  on  the  same  ground?  A. — 
At  the  beginning  of  August  w«'  remained  on  the  sauie  ground 
and  then  w«>  went  further  east. 

Q. — How  much  further  east  did  you  go?  A. — About  20  or 
oO  miles — we  did  not  go  very  far. 

Q. — Why  did  you  go  further  east?  A. — I  do  not  know — 
it  was  the  cajttain's  opinion. 

Q. — Did  you  hear  of  any  seizure  then?  .\. — Yes,  we 
spoke  the  "Anna  Heck"  in  the  Iteginniiiii;  of  August  and  they 
lold  us  tlnxt  some  schooners  were  seized. 


I 


I 

i     'I' 


'0 


I  I'll' 
lb 


! 


■m 


rii 


3o8 


mI'I?.  ,    I  i 


(j. — l>o  ,vou  rfUK'iulK-r  iippruxiiimtcly  wlitit  dii.v  it  wiim  In 
Aii^iiHt  tliat  .vou  Hpoki-  tlif  "Anna  H«'»'k"?  A. — 1  I'annot 
lianll.v  tt'll  the  dat«>H. 

Q. — Wt'll,  about  wlu-n?  A. — It  wan  nb<Hit  tin*  bc'Kitiniut? 
of  AiiKUHt. 

i}. — \\liat  do  .vou  mran  by  tlic  bi-cinniuK  of  Au^UHt?  A. — 
lt«'lw(>(>n  tlu>  iHt  and  tli<   lOth,  I  think. 

<i. — WaH  It  after  HpcaklnK  to  tlic  "Anna  Herk"  tlint    you 
went  furtlu'r  euHt?      A. — Wo  went  furtlun-  t-ast    after    wo 
lO   Hpoko  tlu"  "Anna  Hook." 

(). — Do  you  know  If  tJio  IndlanH  that  wore  on  board  th(« 
"draio"  had  «'Vor  boon  in  Holirlnjj  Soa  l»oforo?  A. — I  do  not 
think  It,  Hir. 

Q. — l»o  yon  romonibor  as  to  whether  the  weather  v  \s  fine 
or  bad  then?  A. — Tlie  weather  was  pretty  favorable  during 
the  season. 

(J. — Do  you  reinombor  how  many  loweriuK  days  you  had  in 
Ttohrinp;  Hea  that  year?      A. — I  rnnnot    toll    e.\aet1y    from 
memory,  but  I  should  jud«?o  there  were  about     thirty     odd 
20   tli'VS. 

Q. — Woiild  you  remember  approximately  how  many  days 
there  were  in  .VuRUMt?  A. — The  weather,  as  far  as  I  can  ro- 
oolloot  was  very  favorable  durinfi  the  whoh'  seafon  mostly. 
We  had  lots  of  foy  in  the  bojjinninj;  of  August.  Tlie  In 
dians  do  not  po  out  in  fojrpy  weather. 

Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Lansing. 

(J. — Mr.  Roppon,  have  you  sch'U  any  nu'moranda  to  refresh 
your  memory  as  to  the  eateh  in  18Sf!?      A. — I  had  a  memor- 
30  andum  book  and  I  lost  it. 

ii. — Have  you  soon  It  lately?      A. — No,  sir. 

(f. — Have  you  talked  the  matter  over  with  Caittain  War- 
ren?     A.  — Xo.  sir,  I  have  not  talkel  to  him  about  it. 

ii. — Have  you  talked  to  anyone  else  about  It?  A. — No, 
sir. 

IJ. — Nor  did  you  talk  anything  in  connection  with  the 
cruise  of  the  "Grace?''  A. — No,  sir,  only  from  my  own 
memory. 

Q. — This  in  the  first  notice  you  had  of  It?      A. — Yes,  sir. 
40       (i. — \Vhon  you  wore  subpoenaed  and  brought  on  the  stand 
here?      A. — Y«'s,  sir. 

Q. — You  talked  to  none  of  the  counsel  for  Her  Majesty 
about  it?      A. — Only  what  I  gave  to  Mr.  Hodwell. 

Mr.  I'otors: — Is  it  coutondod  that  wo  have  not  the  right  to 
see  what  the  witnesses  are  going  to  say  liefore  they  go  on 
the  stand? 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  T'nited  States: — You 
liavo  a  ])erfoct  right,  and  it  is  to  the  credit  of  the  diligence 
50   of  counsel  that  tliey  should  see  witnesses  before  they  go  on 
the  stand. 

Mr.  H<i(iuo:— The  q'lestion  is  rather  too  broad. 

The  Commissicmor  on  the  i)art  of  the  United  States: — As 
a  gom-^'al  niltr  my  obsorviition  has  always  been  that  the  coun- 
sel talk  with  witnosos  before  examinati«m. 

Sir  Oiarh's  Tapper* — We  certainly  do  to    every     one    of 

tiiom. 

Mr.  Dickinson;--!  consider  it  m.\  duty  to  the  court  always 
to  talk  with  a  witness  before  I  put  him  on  the  stand. 


6c) 


Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Lansing  c(mtinued: 

Q. — Have  yon  boon  sealing  in  other  years  besides  1886? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 


V>9 

Q.— WtTc  yon  Healing  in  18Sr>?      A.— No,  sir. 

y.— WiTi'  you  Ht'iiling  in  \HHT!      A  — Y»'8. 

Q.— WliHt  wiiH  .vonr  roast  cjih-h  in  ISHJi?  A.— In  1880  I 
waH  in  (lie  "Ihac*"."      Wo  liad  1J(M)  Ml(inH. 

Q.— Altogftlui  for  the  HeHBon?  A.— No,  in  tlie  Itelirins 
Hea. 

Q— What  did  you  have  on  the  coast?  A.— »to  had.  1 
tliinic,  about  000. 

Q. — Now,  Mr.  Ueiipen,  are  you  not  niiMtaken  about  tliat? 
10  Did  you  not  liave  1,1(H»  in  the  Hea  and  000  on  tlie  -jant? 
Whs  it  not  1,70(»  altoKetlier?      A.— I  eannot  renienibei  that 
very  well.      I  l;now  it  was  1,7(H)  Hkins  altogether. 

y.— AMoRether?  A.— Alt<.,<?etlier.  I  may  have  made  a 
mistake,  but  it  seems  to  nic  thai:  it  was  perhaps  1,700  for  the 
season. 

Q. — You  had  something  over  oOO  that  you  took  on  the 
coast?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Are  you  sure  that  1,700  was  all  you  had?      A.— 1,700; 
that  is  what  I  can  recollect. 
20      (J. — Are  you  Hure  as  to  the  day  when  you  went  to  sea?    A. 
— Well,  not  qiute. 

Q. — Is  it  not  a  fact  that  you  entered  the  Sea  in  June?  A. — 
No.  I  do  not  think  we  entered  in  June;  it  was  the  4th  of 
Ju\y,  I  think,  we  entered. 

Q. — Are  you  u  navigator?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Were  you  then?      A. — No,  sir. 

y. — Did  you  sight  tlie  Kogosioff  Volcano  when  you  were  in 
the  Sea?    A. — We  sighted  it  in  the  Itehring  Hea;  yes,  sir. 

Q. — How  far  away  was  it?      A. — I  sliould  judge  we  were 
30  about  30  miles  otf. 

Q. — Which  way?      A. — To  the  northward  in  Behring  Sen. 

Q. — Were  there  more  seals  in  1880  tlian  there  were  in  1892 
in  the  Sea?  A. — Home  days  we  found  lots  of  seals  and 
some  days  none. 

Q. — Right  in  the  same  place?  A. — At  different  places; 
we  never  stopped  in  the  one  place  all  the  time. 

Q.— Did  you  see  more  in  1880  than  in  1802?  A.— Some 
days  we  could  see  the  same  quantity  of  seals. 

Q. — Answer  my  question — did  you  see  more  seals  in  1880 
4°  than  you  did  in  1802?      A.— I  should  tliink  as  a  rule  we  saw 
just  as  many. 

Q. — Is  that  the  best  you  can  answer?      A. — Y'es,  sir. 

Q.— You  will  not  say  that  you  saw  more  in  1802  than  you 
did  in  1SS(>?      A. — No,  I  cannot  say  that. 

Q.— Did  you  make  the  following  statement,  which  is  to  be 
found  in  Volume  8  of  the  American  Reprint,  page  050,  sec- 
tion 0,  of  the  declaration  of  August  R«'ppen? 

The  Commissioner  on  th'>  part  of  the  United  Statis: — What 
50  document  is  that? 

Mr.  Lansing: — It  is  an  affidavit;  his  own  aflBdavit. 

Tlie  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — In 
iclation  to  another  claim? 

Sfr.  Lansing: — It  is  in  relation  to  the  qtiestion  I  have  asked 
liim  as  to  the  number  of  seals  seen  by  him  in  1886  and  1802. 

To  Witness: — Did  you  subscribe  to  that  declaration?  A. 
— Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  make  tlie  following  statement  in  tliat  decla- 
ration: "I  saw  more  seals  in  1892  than  I  saw  in  any  previous 
year,  and  I  am  informed  by  my  hunters  to  the  st-'ue  etT«'ct." 
Did  you  make  that  statement?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Is  that  statement  true?  A. — Yes.  In  fact  I  saw  a 
good  many  seals  in  1896  the  same  way. 

Q. — Is  that  statement  there  true?  A. — Y'es,  sir,  that  is 
true. 


Go 


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Q.— Yo>i  saw  more  in  iH{)2  tliau  you  did  iu  188G?  A.— 
Yl's. 

Q- — Then  wliat  do  .vou  mean  by  saying  tliat  you  could  not 
state  „liether  you  saw  more  iu  1S<(2  than  in  l.SH«?  A.— It 
is  so  many  years  ago  tluit  I  do  not  remember  it  very  right. 

ti. — How  many  did  you  eateli  in  181M!?  A. — We  got  over 
700. 

Q. — And  you  saw  mor«>  tlian  you  did  in  l.S8(i?  A. — W'a 
got  a  good  many  seals  in  188(!. 

Q. — Did  you  see  more  then  than  you  did  in  188G?  A.No, 
I  cannot  say  that. 

Q. — Your  recollection  as  to  18Sr>  is  not  very  good,  Mr. 
Reppen?      A. — It  is  many  years  ago. 

(i. — And  you  don't  remember  much  about  it?  A. — I  can 
remember  a  good  many  things,  but  a  good  many  things  I 
cannot. 

y. — How  do  you  renu'Uiber  the  number  of  "lowering  days" 
that  year?  A. — I  never  said  just  correctly  that  I  could  re- 
member then)  exactly,  whether  there  would  be  some  days 
more  or  some  (lays  less. 

Q. — How  nuin,\  lowering  days  did  you  say  you  had?  A. — 
Some  ;{t)  odd  lowering  days. 

y. — You  were  in  tlicre  about  ',iH  days  and  of  these  you  had 
about  thirty  lowei-ing  \1ays?  A. — I  was  in  from  the  4th  of 
July  to  the  ir>tli  of  August. 

(i. — That  is  about  ."JS  da.'s.  and  were  about  thirty  of  these 
lowering  da\s?  A. — TiuM-e  were  some  days  we  only  lowered 
for  half  'I  day. 

(i.--Is  it  not  a  fact  that  before  you  came  out  it  was  blow- 
ing pretty  hiird.  and  that  that  was  the  reason  the  Indians 
wanted  to  get  away?  A. — Yes,  the  weather  commenced  to  be 
a  little  bad. 

(i. — Are  not  tlie  Indians  very  superstitious?  A. — Yes,  they 
are  as  a  general  rule. 

ii. —  And  if  tlu'V  want  to  come  away  do  the  capt.-.ius  have 
to  come?  A. — Ves,  to  humor  them.  It  is  no  use  to  go 
against  them. 

Q. — Was  it  not  a  fact  that  the  season  was  practically  end- 
ed on  the  15*11  August  of  that  year?  A. — If  we  had  white 
nu'U  we  (duld  have  stayed  longer. 

Q. — Hud  your  captain  ever  be^n  in  the  Sea  before?  A. — 
Xo,  sir. 

Q. — Did  that  nuike  any  dirt'.'rence  as  to  your  remaining 
longer  in  the  sea  that  year?      A. — I  do  not  think  it. 

(i. — Are  there  any  particular  hunting  grminds  in  the  Sea? 
A. — No,  sir,  1  do  not  think  it;  wherever  you  lind  the  seals  you 
stay. 

(}. — Sometimes  you  go  to  the  west  of  the  Islands?  A. — 
Yes,  si  I". 

ii. — And  sonu'times  to  the  north  of  the  Islands?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q. — And  sometimes  to  the  east  of  llu'  IMibylotT  Islands? 
.\. — Yes.  sir.  * 

Q. — And  sometimes  to  the  south?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Are  the  seals  thickt  r  in  one  ipiarter  th;in  in  another? 
-    ♦.— \o. 

ii. — It  just  hajijtens  that  you  run  across  a  niimb'"-  of  seals 


and  stav  theie  for  awhile?     A. 


1  es. 


60       Q. — And  then  vou  go  00  or  70  miles  In  another  direction? 
A.— Yes. 

(■i. — And  then  "li<'  too"'  and  send  out  your  camM's?     A. — 


1  es,  sir. 


1  es,  sir. 


(■i. — And  yon  stay  there  a  day?      A 

Q. — .\nd  if  the  seals  are  thick  you  stay  there  two  days?    A. 
— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — .And  sometimes  more?       ,V. — Sometimes  more. 


3>i 

Q. — And  then  ,v<)u  pick  nj)  .voiir  ciinocH  ainl  iiiovo  off  00  or 
100  niilcH  in  iinollu'r  dirt'Hion?      A. — Ych. 

Q. — ('ov*'rin>j  tlic  wliolt'  tn'n  about  (lie  islands?  A. — Yfs, 
sir. 

Q. — North,  south,  euHt  and  west  of  the  seal  islands?  A. — 
Yes. 

().— Am  I  lifjlit  in  that?     A.— Yos. 

Q. — While  you  were  in  the  sea  were  there  many  calm  days? 
A. — Not  very  many. 
10      Q- — Does  steam  lielp  a  vessel  in  the  sea?    A. — No,  we  never 
use  the  steam. 

Q. — Never  UB«'d  it  at  all?     A. — Only  to  ro  for  water. 

Q. — How  do  you  remember  that  catch  of  2;{5  seals?  A. — 
I  remember  it  on  account  of  it  beiii^  an  unusually  lar}j;e  catch. 

Q. — Did  you  ever  hear  of  a  day's  catch  as  bip  as  that  by  any 
other  vc'ssel?  A. — Yes,  sir,  I  have  been  in  other  vessels  the 
same  way. 

Q. — And  3'ou  made  one  bif?  catch?      A. — Y'es. 

(i- — And  you  can  remember  all  the  large  catches?     A. — 
20  Yi's.  sir. 

Q. — These  are  the  only  ones  you  can  remember.     A. — Yes. 

Q. — Yon  cannot  remember  the  poor  days.  A. — Not  except 
by  the  number  of  how  many  se.als  we  had. 

Q. — \Yhat  is  the  next  largest  catch  vou  made  in  the  year 
188(;?    A.— AYe  had  150. 

(J. — \Yhen  was  that?  A. — It  was  during  the  time  we  we"e 
in  Hehring  Sea. 

Q. — What  time  of  the  month?    A. — I  should  judge  it  was 
in  Julv.     We  had  several  good  catches. 
30       (J.— What  time  in  July?    A.— The  latter  end  of  July. 

(i. — Was  not  this  catch  of  2:$r>  in  July  also?  A. — It  may 
have  been  in  the  latter  end  of  July,  but  I  cannot  tell  you. 

Q.— Anywhere  from  the  20th  to  the  liOtli  of  July?  A.— 
Yes.  anywhere  around  there,  I  think, 

(i. — Is  it  not  a  fact  that  the  latter  part  of  Julv  was  a  good 
deal  better  than  the  Ist  of  August  that  year?  A. — Yes,  we 
had  good  catches. 

(i.— Was  not  there  a  good  deal  of  bad  weather  in  the  first  of 
.Vugust?    A. — Not  on  the  first. 

Q. — Take  the  first  ten  days  in  August,  and  did  you  not  have 
a  good  deal  of  bad  weather?  A. — If  I  remember  ariglit  after 
the  t"nth  we  had  bad  weather. 

Q — You  have  heard  the  testimony  of  some  of  these  other 
witnesses  as  to  the  weather  during  the  first  of  August?  A. 
—Yes. 

Q. — Did  not  that  refresh  yonr  memory  that  dnrinc;  the  first 
liart  of  August  you  had  bad  weather?  A. — Y'es,  we  had  bad 
weather,  but  it  did  not  last  long. 

Q. — Did  vou  have  worse  we«',t!«er  th.an  vou  did  in  Julv.  A. 
—Yes. 

Q. — Did  your  sealing  end  about  the  tenth  di'.v  of  August? 
A. --About  that,  I  think. 

Q. — You  went  out  of  the  sea  on  tlie  ir>th  of  August?  A. 
-Yes. 

Q. — You  stated  tliat  yon  were  tliere  several  days  waiting 
lor  good  weather,  did  you  n(»t?       A. — Yes. 
Q. — .\nd  tile  good  weather  did  not  come?      A. — No. 
Q. — So  y  )u  w«nt  out  of  the  Sea?      A. — Yes. 
r,o      Q- — D  was  the  bad  weather  that  was  the  chief  reason  why 
yon  left  tlir  Sea?      A.— Yes. 


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Re-dire(  •  exuniiiialion  by  Mr.  Meitiue: 

Q — Wiii  you  refer  fo  the  declaration  that  was  shown  to 
.you  as  to  the  'oniparative  number  of  seals  that  yon  saw  dur- 
ing the  year  1  ^!ti.'  and  previoiis  years,  and  say  if  your  decla- 
ration  referred  to  Itehring  Sea  or  if  it  referred  to  the  sealing 
1  general?      I  will  read  the  d«'claration  to  vou: 


•ftf^'-mww^mm 


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DECLARATION  OF  AUGUST  REPPEN. 

"Dominiuii  of  Canada,  Province  of  British  Columbia,  City 
of  Victoria. 

"I,  August  Roppen,  of  the  City  of  \'ictoria,  in  the  Province 
of  Uritish  Columbia,  muster  mariner,  do  solemnly  declare  as 
follows: 

"1.  That  I  have  been  captain  or  mate  on  schooners  engaged 
in  the  sealing  business  for  the  past  nine  years. 

"2.  I  have  been  engaged  on  the  steam  schooner  "Grace" 
and  the  schooners  "Kate,"  "Mary  Taylor,"  "Viva,"  "Path- 
finder"— now  called  the  "Pioneer" — and  this  year  1  was  on 
the  "Fawn." 

";{.  While  I  was  engaged  as  mate  on  the  different  schoon- 
ers I  was  also  engaged  a  jtortion  of  the  time  in  seal  hunting. 

"4.  During  the  entire  time  in  which  I  have  been  seal  hunt- 
ing I  have  not  lost  more  than  three  seals  by  sinking. 

"5.  I  notice  no  difference  in  the  seals  now  and  nine  years 
ago,  with  the  exception  that  they  are  wilder. 

"(i.  I  saw  more  seals  during  the^year  18!>2  than  I  ever  saw  on 
any  preveious  y<.'ar,  and  I  am  informed  by  my  hunters  to  the 
same  effect. 

"T.When  a  seal  is  wounded  the  chunces  are  ten  to  one  that 
it  is  secured  by  the  hunters. 

"8.  If  a  seal  is  wounded  it  is  clj.isec.  "luii'  it  is  secured.  I 
have  chased  a  seal  for  half  an  iious    tfiv  ounded  it  before 

I  secured  it. 

"J).  I  have  seen  seals  travelliiig  ii'  c-hools,  and  at  such 
limes  they  are  more  diflicult  to  secure. 

"10.  The  males  and  females  travel  togetlier. 

"I.  I  have  o{»ened  seals  and  know  that  they  eat  flsh,  but 
they  also  eat  shrimps  and  insects. 

"12.  I  have  never  been  on  the  Russian  side  of  Behring  Sea. 

"i;{.  1  have  seen  seals  cohabiting  in  the  water;  they  do  this 
in  the  same  manner  that  cats  and  dogs  do  on  land. 

"14.  I  have  been  hunting  with  Indians;  in  calm  weather 
they  prefer  the  spear,  but  as  a  rule  they  now  prefer  the  gun 
for  sealing. 

"IE).  Quite  a  number  of  barren  females  are  killed  on  the 
coast. 

"10.  Very  few  old  bulls  are  taken. 

"17.  Tlie  only  ]»rotection  necessary  for  the  ueals  in  my 
opinion  is  to  protect  Mu'in  on  the  islands. 

"And  I  make  this  sr.'emn  declaration  conscie)uioii.>f!y  be- 
lieving the  same  to  be  true,  and  by  virtue  of  "''.  te  >(  *  Res 
pecting  Extrajudicial  Oaths" 

"(Signed.)  AUOrS-'  '  V.f'A'^'Y^. 

Q. — That  does  not  refer  to  Behring  Sea  'n  partun^  iv  do'o 
it?     A. — No,  sir. 

Q.— Did  you  in  1SM(!  go  all  around  the  Prybiloff  Islai.ds? 
A. — I  think  1  remember  \v<'  (mce  sailed  around  the  islands. 

Q. — But  you  don't  remember  in  what  year  it  was?    A. No. 

(J. — Between  the  Kith  and  15th  of  August  do  you  remem- 
ber if  you  sealed  at  all?    A. — I  cannot  remember  that. 

(J. — In  1S8(»  did  you  yourself  seal?      A. — No,  1  did  not, 

Q. — You  reniained  on  the  vessel?    A, — On  the  vessel  only. 

Q. — Wh.U  was  the  tonnage  of  the  schooner  "Oract'."  A. — 
I  cannot  .'xactly  state  but  she  was  70  or  HO  '   -is. 

Q.— -You  do  not  know?    A. — I  do  not  kn... 

Q. — Now,  what  did  I  understand  ,vou  to  f,i     '.1  c'ossexam 
ination  as  to  the  number  of  seals  that  were  -     ;i;ht  during 
that  year  in  Beliring  Sei. ,'    What  was  it  acc'oid.n;/  to  your 
recollection,  exclusive  of  the  coast  catch?    A. — 1  have  always 
been  of  the  opi'      1  that  '.  e  laid  1700  in  the  Behring  Sen. 

The  CommisN'r  lev  on  Die  part  of  the  United  States: — I 
will  ask  the  sit  nogiaph(  >    ;•    strike  that  answer  out.    This 


lo 


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Hi 

is  a  very  importjint  qiiestion  and  the  \^itnes8  wants  to  under- 
Mtand  it  and  answer  it  carefully.  I  want  you  to  be  sure,  wit- 
ness, and  answer  tliat  question  carefully. 

Mr.  Beique: — I  think  the  answer,  as  far  as  I  understood  it, 
is  a  fair  reply  to  the  question. 

The  Comniisioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty : — The  witness 
used  a  word  in  the  answer  that  might  not  show  a  personal 
recollection. 

Mr.  Bieque: — I  thinic  the  answer  is  about  the  best  answer 
that  I  could  get. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  ITnited  States: — We 
will  allow  the  answer  to  stand.  The  answer  he  gave  was 
not  in  ray  judgment  a  proper  response  to  the  question.  I 
want  him  to  answer  the  question  properly  for  my  own  sat- 
isfaction. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — It  seems 
lo  me,  that  that  to  your  question  as  to  what  his  recollection, 
it  is  hardly' a  response  for  the  witness  to  state  it  as  a  matter 
of  opinion.  I  join  with  my  learned  colleague  in  saying  that 
the  witness  should  speak  to  the  best  of  his  recollection. 

Mr.  Bieqne: — May  it  please  30ur  Honours,  my  object  was 
merely  to  explain  the  apparent  conflict  between  the  answers 
given  in  his  direct  examination  and  the  answers  given  in  his 
cross-examination. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — Your 
question  was  a  proper  one  but  the  answer  was  not. 

Mr.  Bieque: — 1  have  no  objection  to  put  any  other  question 
to  the  witness  that  will  elicit  the  information  that  your  Hon- 
our needs. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States:  This 
question  has  been  put  on  the  direct  examination,  and  on  the 
cross-examination,  and  again  it  is  put  upon  the  re-direct  ex- 
amination. I  tiiink  I  will  try  it  myself  now.  (To  the  wit- 
ness.) Q. — Witness,  reflect  carefully,  and  from  your  best  re- 
collection, state  as  near  as  you  can  how  many  seals  were 
taken  by  your  vessel  in  the  Behring  Sea  in  1880,  excluding 
those  taken  outride  of  the  Behring  Sea. 

The  Witness: — I  cannot  recollect  very  well  the  catch  of  the 
schooner  "Grace"  on  account  of  it  is  so  man^  years  ago  this 
happened,  and  1  have  not  got  anything  to  show.  I  lost  the 
l»<»ok  I  had  and  I  have  nothing  in  writing  to  show  what  catch 
we  really  had.      I  have  only  what  I  took  from  my  memory. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — You  are 
asked  what  is  the  best  memory  you  have  upon  the  matter? 
.v.— It  was  always  what  I  could  remember  that  we  had  1700 
seals  but  I  never  stated  whether  it  was  for  the  Behring  Sea 
1111(1  coast  catch  together.  I  do  not  recollect  that.  The  1,700 
seals,  that  is  iviiat  we  had  in  the  "Graec,"  and  that  is  all  I  can 
recollect. 

He-direct  examination  by  Mr.  Bieque  continued: 

Q. — Now  witness,  in  ISMtJ  did  the  schooner  carry  the  coast 
•  atch  into  Behring  Sea?      A. — \o,  sir. 

Q- — Where  was  it  kft  before  going  to  Behring  Sen?  A. — 
He  sent  it  home  from  the  West  Coast  to  Victoria. 

Q. — Before  entering  Behring  Sen?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Would  that  fact  the  bett«'r  enable  you  to  recollect 
whether  the  1,700  seals  that  you  mentioned  comprised,  or 
did  not  compriHt>  the  coast  catch?    A. — I  cannot  say. 


1-    i:'':'.-'^ 


ill!  i„ 

lilliil " 


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mtfW^iimmmmm 


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314 

Q. — You  do  not  remeinbor  when  you  ranio  back  from  Rolir- 
ing  Soa  what  nunibor  of  wn\H  you  had  on  tlu'  Onicc?  A. — 
No,  sir,  1  nuinot  ivnu'nibt'r  that.  Tlic  only  (hinj?  I  can  ro- 
momber  was  that  tlu'  schoontM*  had  1,700  as  a  catch. 

Q. — And  your  memory  is  not  fresh  enough  to  state  whether 
it  comprised  the  whole  catch  or  only  the  Hehring  Sea  catch? 
A. — No,  sir 

By  Mr.  Lansing: 

Q. — Do  you  mean  1,700  for  the  whole  season? 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — lias 
he  not  said  all  he  could  on  that  matter,  Mr.  Lansing? 

Mr.  Lansing: — 1  do  not  think  he  has;  I  do  not  think  that 
was  brought  out. 

The  Commissioner  on  tlie  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — He 
has  said  it  two  or  three  different  times. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — It  may  be  stated  in  connection  with  the 
testimony  of  this  witness  by  consent  of  my  learned  friend, 
that  the  tonnage  of  the  Orace  on  wliicli  tliis  catch  was  made 
was  76  87-100  tons.  (Seventy-six  and  eighty-seven  one 
hundreths  tons.) 

The  Commissioner  on  tlie  part  of  Iler  Majesty: — She  was  an 
auxiliary  steam  schooner? 

Mr.  Dickinson:— Yes. 

Mr.  Peters: — .Vt  this  point  I  would  ask  my  learned  frientl 
formally-  so  that  it  may  go  upon  the  noti's;  whelher  he  has  the 
log  of  the  "Grace"  for  the  year  18M(i  and  tlie  year  1887,  or 
for  either  of  these  years,  and,  if  so,  will  he  pr<»duce  them? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — We  think  we  have  the  log  for  1887  but 
we  cannot  tell  witliout  examination,  and,  of  course,  having 
no  intimation  that  tlie  "(Irace"  was  to  come  in  question,  we 
have  not  tlie  log  in  court,  neither  can  we  say  definitely  that 
we  have  it  without  an  examination  of  the  jiapers. 

Mr.  Peters: — You  will  be  able  to  inform  us  this  afternoon? 

Mr.  Diskinson: — After  recess  we  will  inform  you. 

Mr.  Peters: — And  produce  it  if  vou  have  it?  A. — We 
will. 


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James  I).  Warren,  recalled  as  a  witiu-ss  on  (he  part  of 
Great  P.ritain. 

Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Beique: 

Mr.  Beique: — I  would  like  to  recall,  Mr.  Warren,  in  connec- 
tion with  the  calch  of  (he  "(Srace"  in  ISKfi,  as  (o  whether  (he 
1,700  comprised  (he  coast  catch  or  not.  Mr.  Warren  has  al- 
ready been  sworn. 

Q. — W<'re  you  the  owner  of  the  "Grace"  in  18S(>?  A. — Yes, 
su])posed  to  be. 

Q. — Have  you  any  record  of  the  calch  of  the  "Grace"  in 
1SS((,  bo(h  oftlie  coast  <atch  and  the  Behring  Sea  catch?  A. 
— I  have. 

(i. — Have  you  got  it  separated?     A. — Yt  s. 

(i. — Will  you  say  what  it  was?  A. — She  sent  back  from 
the  <'oast  S21  seals. 

(i. — When?     .\. — Came  u]i  some  time  in  .May. 


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Q.— lS8r»?  A.— l{«f«»i('  she  Htarttd  for  (he  lU'liriiin  Sea; 
tlu'ii  wIk'Ii  she  n'tiiriu'd  fioiii  Itt'liriii;;  S«'a  she  lirou^lit  in  1,- 
7()5  seals. 

Q. — What  pait  of  those  were  cauglit  on  the  way  on  the 
coast  from  the  Itehrin;;  Sea?  A. — I  «io  not  know,  but  that  is 
I  lie  seals  she  returned  from  her  trip  after  she  started  for  the 
liehring  Sea. 

Cross-examination  bj'  Mr.  Dickinson. 

Q. — Where  did  she  make  the  transfer?    A. — Of  the  sals? 

Q. — Yes?    A. — Down  on  the  coast. 

Q. — Whereabouts;  in  port  anywhere  or  in  harbor?  A. — 
Well,  I  don't  know  exactly,  I  think  it  was  in — made  on  the 
coast. 

(J. — How  far  from  Behring  Sea?  A. — Well,  some  1,400  or 
1,500  miles  I  suppose. 

Q. — Will  you  please  state  where  the  transfer  was  made? 
A. — I  don't  know  exactly,  that  is  what  she  returned,  what 
came  to  Victoria  from  her. 

Q. — About  how  far  was  the  transfer  made  from  Behring 
Sea?    A. — I  suppose  about  1,500  miles,  probably. 

Q. — And  the  passa{;e  to  Behrinp;  Sea  was  through  the  seal- 
ing ground  where  the  coast  catch  was  sometimes  made?  A. 
I  exiK'ct  she  sealed  some  of  the  way  up;  I  got  709  myself  on 
the  way  up. 

Q.— That  year?    A.— That  year. 

Q. — Are  there  fair  weather  grounds  between  that  place  and 
the  Behring  Sea  through  the  course  of  that  140  or  150  miles? 
\. — The  fair  weather  grounds  are  betw<'en  the  places. 

Q. — She  could  seal  on  the  way  up  could  she?  A. — I  sup- 
I)ose  she  sealed  some  on  the  way  up.  I  went  through  the 
fair  weather  grounds  that  year  myself,  and  could  not  get  in, 
too  lute. 

Q. — What  time  did  you  go  up?  A. — We  both  started  about 
llie  same  time;  pbout  the  end  of  May  we  left  the  coast. 

H. — About  how  many  ships  did  vou  liave  that  year  in  your 
fleet?    A.— Six,  I  think  all  together. 

Q. — And  did  they  sometimes  exchange  skinft,  one  of  your 
ships  take  skins  off  the  other?    A. — Not  unless  only  to  bring 
40  them  to  Victoria. 

Q. — If  they  were  bringing  the  catch  up  from  the  coast — A. 
— One  might  bring  up  the  catch  of  the  others. 

Q. — But  from  Behring  Sea,  if  one  was  leaving  and  another 
remaining?    A. — No. 

Q. — Thej'  never  exchanged  skins?  A. — There  was  never 
any  of  mine  left  that  way. 

Q. — Were  you  here  when  the  seals — when  the  skins  came 
in?    A. — I  was  here  when  the  spring  catch  came  in. 

Q. — Were  jou  here  when  the  Behring  Sea  catch  came  in? 
A.— No. 

Q. — Where  did  you  make  your  memorandum,  which  you 
have  just  read?  A. — I  got  it  from  the  vesse^'K  credit  of  the 
seals  returned. 

Q. — Who  kept  that?    A. — A  party  by  the  nan>e  of  Munroe. 

Q. — Whereabouts?    A. — Here  in  Victoria. 

Q.— What  did  you  just  read  from?  A. — From  the  entry 
of  her  credit. 

ti. — From  the  original  entry?  A. — From  the  original  en 
try  nu'morandum. 

Q. — It  is  not  an  original  entry  yon  have  just  read?  ,\. — 
We  don't  keep  it  in  that  book,  that  is  a  memorandum  of  the 
original  entry. 

<i. — When  did  you  make  that?  A. — I  made  it  a  day  or 
two  ago. 

Q. — Where  is  the  original  book?  A. — The  original  book  is 
in  an  olHce  here  in  town,  will  Iw  jiroduced  in  court  here,  I  ex- 
pect. 


50 


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316 

Q. — And  Mr.  Miiuruc  mailt'  it,  did  lie?  A. — Mr.  Munroe 
innde  it. 

Q. — Did  you  inalie  a  rciiort  to  tlio  Itritislt  CoimiiiBsiont'rs  of 
<he  eatfli  of  tlio  •tJrafc-,"  tlie  IJritisli  CommisKioncrs  wlio  were 
8t»nt  liere,  and  wlioso  wpoit  went  to  tlu'  PnriH  Tribunal?  A. 
— I  do  not  remembei'  of  making  any;  I  might  possibly;  I  do 
not  remember. 

Q. — Did  you  make  a  statement  to  the  Itritish  Oommission- 
ers  that  the  Behring  Sea  catch  was  110.    A. — No. 

Q. — And  the  coast  catch  was  GOO?    A. — No. 

Q. — Made  no  such  icport?    A. — No,  I  know  I  did  not. 


20 


Charles  Alfred  Goffln  was  called  as  a  witness  by  Great 
Hrilain  and  duly  sworn. 

Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Bodwell. 

Mr.  Bodwell: — We  are  calling  tlus  witness  a  tie  out  of 
order  so  that  he  may  go  back  to  his  work  in  the  Bank  of 
British  Columbia. 


(iiMii'i 


30 


40 


50 


60 


Q.— What  is  your  first  name  Mr.  Goffln?  A.— Charles  Al 
fred  Goffln. 

Q. — You  are  accountant  of  t'  •  Bank  of  British  Columbia  at 
the  present  time?    A. — Yes. 

Q. — And  in  1886  were  vou  employed  in  that  same  bank? 
A.— No,  in  1887. 

Q. — What  position  did  you  hold  in  the  bank  in  1887?  A. 
— Ledger  keeper. 

Q. — Have  you  been  employed  there  continuously  since?  A. 
—Yes, 

Q. — You  were  ledger  keeper  in  1887?    A. — Yea. 

Q. — As  ledger  keeper  have  you  any  duties  which  would 
enable  vou  to  acquire  a  knowledge  of  tlie  bank  rate  of  inter- 
est at  tliat  time?    A.— Yea. 

Q. — What  were  those  duties?  A. — I  had  charge  of  the 
customs  interest  on  their  overdrafts,  and  calculated  interest 
on  discrxint  which  would  be  placed  to  their  credit.  Q. — As 
accountant  for  the  bank  have  you  any  duties  to  perfonu 
which  would  enable  you  to  acquire  a  knowledge  of  the  bank 
rate  of  interest?  A. — I  have  to  take  all  the  books  and  see  that 
the  interest  calralations  are  correct. 

Q. — Can  you  (ell  us  what  the  current  bank  rate  of  intewst 
was  in  the  year  1887?    A. — From  8  to  10  per  cent. 

Q. — How  long  did  that  rate  of  interest  continue  as  a  cur- 
rent rate  of  interest?  A. — Cntil  probably  Ihe  beginning  of 
1801;  of  course  it  has  a  great  deal  to  do  with  the  nature  of 
the  paper  offered. 

Q. — I  am  speaking  now  of  paper  i)iit  through  in  the  ordin- 
ary course  of  business  in  the  bank,  and  the  interest  which 
was  charged  on  overdrafts?  A. — From  1887  until  the  begin- 
ning of  ^801  it  would  be  from  8  per  cent.;  after  that  from  7 
to  9—7  and  8. 

Q. — Down  to  the  present  time?      A. — Yes, 

By  Mr.  Dickinson: 

Q. — What  is  the  legal  rate  in  British  Cohimbia  when  no 
interest  is  named?      A. — Six  per  cent. 

By  Mr.  Bodwell: 

Q. — Do  vou  know  when  that  came  into  fol-ce  in  Britiah 
Columbia  Mr.  Goffln?        A.— I  fancy  the  Bank  Act  of  1801. 


317 
Ity  Mr.  DickiuHou: 

Q.— What  was  it  bofort  1891?  A.— I  don't  thiuk  there  was 
any  legislation. 

Q. — What  wafS  the  rate  charged  when  no  interest  was  nam- 
ed in  the  contract  in  1887  wlien  yon  first  commenced  busi- 
ness?     A. — I  couldn't  say. 

Q. — You  charged  Ihe  !)  and  10  per  cent.,  whatever  you 
stated,  whenever  there  was  an  agreement  to  pay  it?  A. — 
10  Yei. 

By  Mr.  Bodwell: 

Q. — Do  j'ou  know  of  interest  as  high  as  12  per  cent,  being 
charged  in  British  Columbia  in  those  days?      A. — O,  yes. 

Q. — Not  an  unusual  thing?  A. — No.  Not  outside  of 
banks. 


20 


William  Douglas  Byers  called  on    he  part  of  Great  Britain 
and  duly  sworn. 


)■  I 


40 


50 


r>o 


Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Peters. 

Q. — You  live  in  Vi<;toria?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — How  long  have  you  been  in  Victoria?  A. — Been  in  Vic- 
toria 10  years. 

Q. — Where  did  you  originally  come  from?      A. — Halifax. 

Q. — In  Halifax,  Nova  Scotia?      A. — Yes  sir. 

Q. — When  did  you  come  around  from  Halifax,  Nova 
Scotia?      A.— In  188G. 

Q. — What  vessel  did  you  come  in?  A. — In  the  "Path- 
finder." 

Q. — You  came  around  the  Horn  in  her?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Since  that  time  wliat  have  you  been  occupied  witli? 
A. — Sealing. 

Q. — Did  you  have  any  pro]M>rty  or  cash,  money  or  capital 
wlien  you  started  in  188G?      A. — No. 

Q. — Have  vou  been  emploved  in  anything  but  sealing  since 
1880?      A.— No. 

Q. — And  you  reside  in  Victoria,  I  believe?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Do  J'OU  own  your  own  property?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Own  any  shipping  property?  A. — Yes,  I  own  an  in- 
terest in  the  "f'arlotta  Cox." 

Q. — And  you  own  property  besides?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  has  your  experience  been  in  sealing?  Did  you 
seal  in  1886?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q.— On  what  ship?      A.— In  tlie  "Pathfinder." 

Q.— Did  you  seal  in  1887?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q — In  what  shij)?      A. — The  same  schooner. 

Q. — In  what  capacity  were  you  employed  in  her?  A. — I 
was  boat  puller  on  her. 

Q.— Did  you  seal  in  1888?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — In  what  <apacity?      A. — Hunter  on  the  "Penelope." 

Q.— In  1889?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — In  what  capacity?      A. — Hunter  on  the  Pathfinder. 

Q.— In  1890?      A. -Yes.  sir. 

Q. — In  what  capacity?      A. — Hunter  on  the  "Triumph." 

Q.— Did  you  seal  in  1891?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

(i.— In  what  capacitv?  A. — Master  of  the  "Carlotta 
fox." 


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y. — Sinco  that  time  have  you  aoalcd  every  year?  A. — Ye», 
sir. 

Q. — In  what  capacity?      A. — As  master. 

Q.— Of  what  ship?  A.— The  Curiotta  Cox  for  five  years 
and  one  year  as  master  of  tlie  "E.  M.  Marvin." 

Q. — That  is  your  e.vperience  as  a  sealer?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Began  as  boat  puller  and  now  a  master  and  part  own- 
er?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Now  I  want  to  get  one  or  two  things  from  you.  In 
10   1886  you  were  on  the  "Pathfinder?"      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  go  into  Behring  Sea?      A. — Y'es. 

Q. — Y'ou  went  into  Behring  Sea  at  what  time  that  year? 
A. — 4th.  of  June. 

Q. — Were  the  seals  there  when  you  first  went  in?  A. — No, 
sir. 

Q. — When  did  yon  first  start  sealing?      A. — I  caught  a 
few  seals  along  about  the  first  of  July,  but  we  did  not  strike 
any  quantity  of  them  until  the  12th.  of  July. 
20       Q. — How  long  did  j-ou  stay  in  Behring  Sea?       A. — Until 
the  4th.  of  August. 

Q. — Do  j-ou  remember  how  many  seals  you  got  during  that 
time?  A. — I  cannot  say  exactly,  but  it  was  somewhere  In 
the  neighborhood  of  1,400. 

Q. — You  are  only  speaking  from  memory?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Y'ou  left  Behring  Sea  on  the  th  of  August?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q. — Just  tell  rne  the  reason  of  your  leaving?      A. — On  that 

30  day  some  of  our  boats  spoke  the  schooner  "Sylvia  Handy"  of 

San  Francisco  and  they  told  our  boats  that  the  cutters  had 

seized  vessels  in  Behring  Sea,  and  we  did  not  cure  to  risk  our 

catch  no  longer,  so  we  left  and  came  home. 

Q. — Now,  were  you  there  the  first,  second,  and  third  of 
August?      A. — Y'es. 

Q. — Can  you,  from  memorandum,  tell  me  whether  or  not 
during  those  days  you  caught  any  seals  and  if  so,  how  many? 
A. — Either  on  the  first,  or  second,  I  would  not  be  sure  which, 
.Q  but  I  presume  it  was  on  the  second  of  August  we  got  one 
hundred  and  fifty  seals  with  five  boats.  And  on  the  third  day 
of  August,  whicli  was  a  foggy  day,  the  catch  was  very  suuill; 
we  were  quite  close  to  tlie  Aleutian  Islands,  say  seven  or  eiglit 
miles  from  the  Aleutian  Islands  on  the  3rd. 

Q. — On  the  4th?  A. — On  the  4th  it  was  ratlier  a  strong 
breeze  for  boats  to  hunt,  although  we  hunted  a  half  day. 

Q. — What  did  you  catch?  A. — We  got  about  40  seals  on 
the  4th. 

Q. — These  facts  you  remember?  A. — I  remember  quite 
well. 

Q. — Now  in  1887  did  jou  go  into  Behring  Sea?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q.— In  what  slilp?      A.— On  the  "Pathfinder." 

Q. — How  long  were  you  in  that  year?  A. — We  were  in 
that  year  from  the  28th  of  June  until  the  17th  of  August. 

Q. — Can  you  tell  me  the  number  of  boats  you  had  in  1887? 
A. — Yes,  sir,  we  had  six  regular  hunting  boats. 
60       Q- — That  was  more  than  the  year  before?      A. — Yes,  we 
only  had  five  regular  hunting  boats  in  188fi. 

Q. — I  am  not  going  into  particulars  of  this  ship  because  we 
already  have  had  from  Captain  O'Leary  these  (addressing 
witness).  Now  I  want  you  to  go  back,  leaving  those  two  years 
that  vou  were  sealing,  did  von  know  a  seal  hunter  named 
Edward  Shields?    A.— Yes.  " 

Q. — Where  is  Edward  Shields?  .\. — He  was  drowned  last 
spring. 


SO 


319 


10 


20 


40 


6o 


il — Will  yon  li-ll  inc  how  louy  you  liiul  known  him?  A.— 
I  had  known  liini  Hinco  18M7. 

Q. — What  reputation  did  lie  bear  as  a  hunter?  A. — First 
class. 

Q. — Had  ,vou  ever  been  hunting  with  hlni?  A. — I  was  on 
the  same  vessel  with  him  in  1HS7. 

Q. — That  was  the  "Pathtlnder"?  A. — Yea,  sir;  he  was  hun- 
ter on  her  that  year. 

Q. — So  jou  speak  of  his  qualities  as  a  h>uiter  from  actual 
knowledge?    A. — Certainly  I  do. 

Q. — Were  .von  with  him  more  than  one  year?     A. — No. 

tj. — Did  you  know  Joseph  Diipont?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

y. — He  was  also  a  hunter?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Were  vou  ever  shipmate  with  him?    A. — I  was.  * 

g.— In  what  year?    A.— In  18S7.  on  the  "Pathfinder." 

g. — What  duties  did  he  perform?  A. — He  was  a  hunter  at 
that  time. 

Q. — Will  you  tell  me  what  sort  of  a  hunter  he  was?  A. — 
First  elass  at  that  time. 

Q. — .lohn  Cotsford,  do  you  know?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Had  you  ever  been  shipmate  with  him?    A. — No.  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  know  him  by  reputation?    A. — I  did. 

Q. — What  was  his  reputation  as  a  hunter?  A. — I  don't 
know  what  his  rejmtation  was  in  1887,  but  since  then  he  is 
reputed  to  be  a  first  class  hunter. 

(i. — In  1887  you  simply  say  you  do  not  know?  A. — No,  I 
do  not  know. 

H. — I  believe  vou  did  not  know  the  other  man  McCauitrv? 
A.— No,  sir,  I  did  not. 

Q. — Can  you  tell  the  elass  of  gun  that  is  used  in  these 
sealinfj  vessels?    A. — Do  you  mean  at  the  present  time? 

Q.— No,  in  188(i  and  1887?  A.— We  had  an  English  gun  in 
188(>  and  1887,  I  presume  the  Honehill. 

Q. — An  English  breech-loader?  A. — An  English  breech- 
loader. 

(i. — Do  you  know  anything  about  their  value?  A. — I  don't 
know  what  their  value  was;  they  were  a  high-priced  gun. 

il. — With  regard  to  catching  seals — boats  compared  with 
<iiiioes — have  you  ever  had  experience  with  white  men  hunt 
iiig  in  canoes?    A. — No.  sir,  I  have  not. 

Q. — So  far  as  covering  ground  is  concerned,  how  would  a 
canoe,  manned  with  two  white  men,  compared  with  a  boat, 
would  it  cover  as  much  ground,  or  less  ground,  or  more?  A. 
— I  think  about  ('(jual.  Probably  the  canoe  will  have  a  little 
the  best  of  it. 

g. — That  is  so  far  as  covering  gro'.  ad  is  concerned?  A.— 
So  far  as  covering  ground  is  concerned. 

Q. — You  have  seen  canoes  manned  by  Indians,  of  course? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  so  far  as  they  are  concerned,  will  that  answer 
ap[)ly?  A. — I  think  so;  I  think  that  an  Indian  will  cover 
more  ground  in  a  day  than  a  white  man. 

Q. — That  is  if  a  white  man  is  in  a  boat  and  the  Indian  in  a 
canoe?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Is  there  any  difference  between  tJie  canoe  and  the  boat 
so  far  as  tlicir  being  able  to  stand  the  sea  is  concerned?  A. 
— I  think  that  they  hunt  in  just  as  rough  weather  in  canoes 
MS  we  do  in  boats,  althonjrli  I  have  never  had  exi)erience  in 
running  canoes  myself,  but  I  liav<>  seen  canoes  out  in  just  as 
rough  weather  as  I  weald  care  to  put  boats  out  in. 

ii- — Now  with  regard  to  the  weather  that  yon  actually  fish 
sciilH  in;  what  kind  of  weather  is  the  best  weather  for  fishing 
seals?    A. — ('aim  days. 

Q. — Hut  do  yon  confine  your  fishing  to  calm  days?  A. — 
\o.  sir. 

g— What  weather  do  you  fish  in?  .A.— Well,  we  fish  in 
some  very  rough  weather. 


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<l. — What  at'tuiill,v  stopn  .v<»u?  A. — Wliiit  iittiinll.v  H(o|m  iik 
Im  wind,     lu  tlu'Hc  da.vH  iiotliin^  liiit  wind  HtopH  uh  in  the  Hcn. 

Q. — To  what  t'xtt'ijt  would  tlicri'  be  wind  lu-foiv  yon  wouhl 
Htop  Healing?    A. — I  itrcsumc  altout  UO  niih'H  an  lionr. 

(i. — You  would  si'al  up  to  that  you  mean?  A. — Vch.  wc 
have  often  had  to  reef  our  uailM  when  our  boatn  weio  out  he- 
foi-e  the.v  got  aboard. 

ii. — You  say  of  courHe  a  ealin  weather  Ib  the  best  to  (inh  in? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 
10      Q. — Has  windy  weather  any  advantage?    A. — No,  sir,  it  Ih 
a  disadvantage. 

Q. — Now  has  fog  any  effect  on  you?  A. — Fog  has  an  effect 
wlien  there  is  wind;  in  calm  weather  fog  has  no  effect  only 
except  it  is  very  foggy  and  then  we  cannot  see  a  seal  as  far 
as  we  could  when  it  was  clear. 

Q. — But  do  you  put  the  boats  out  in  calm,  foggy  weather? 
A. — Decidedly  yes. 

(J. — So  far  as  lowering  the  boat  is  concerned  the  fog  does 
not  stop  you?    A. — No.  fog  and  calm  weather  don't  stop  us. 
20       <-i. — The  fog  and  wind  does?     A. — Yes. 

Q. — Now  did  you  use  guns  and  horns  for  the  purpose  of 
letting  the  boats  know  where  you  are  in  a  fog?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Now  the  process  of  tishing.  AVhat  distance  do  these? 
boats  and  canoes  go  from  the  ship?  A. — They  go  ten  or 
twelve  miles  frequently. 

Q. — Of  course  you  have  had  expt^rience  as  a  hunter  your- 
self?   A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Now  there  has  been  talk  as  to  whether  such  and  such 
hunters  are  good  or  bad.     Do  some  men  take  longer  to  be- 
30  come  good  hunters  than  others?    A. — They  do. 

Q. — Do  some  men  fail  altogether?  A. — They  never  make 
what  is  called  a  tirst  class  hunter.  I  have  known  some  men 
that  never  made  a  first  class  hunter. 

Q. — Will  you  tell  us  when  a  seal  is  floating  in  the  water 
how  much  you  see?  A. — About  one-third  of  him  is  out  of 
water. 

Q. — At  what  distance  as  a  rule  did  you  fire  at  that  time? 
A. — Oh,  about  fifteen  yards  as  a  rule. 

Q. — Do  you  now  refer  to  when  they  are  sleeping?    A. — 
40  When  they  are  sleejjing,  yes. 

Q. — When  they  are  travelling  do  you  fire  at  longer  dis- 
tances? A. — Yes,  travelling  fire  at  them  all  the  way  up  to 
75  yards. 

Q. — Yes,  but  the  bulk  of  the  seals,  are  they  killed  asleep? 
A. — Sleeping,  yes,  sir. 

Q. — That  is  the  way  the  bulk  of  the  seals  are  killed?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  say  you  generally  get  within  fifteen  yards?    A. — 
Fifteen  vards,  ves,  sir. 
SO       Q.— Do  they  lie  still?    A.— Yes.  sir. 

Q. — The  Indians  of  course  spear  them?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — They  throw  tlieir  spear  out  about  what  distance?  A. 
— About  eight  yards. 

Q. — Their  spear  is  fastened  to  a  line,  is  it  not?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q. — Now  when  you  talk  of  using  the  cheap  gun  or  the  dear 
gun  for  the  shooting  of  st'als,  for  the  actual  business  of 
shooting — is  there  any  i»racti<'al  difference  between  a  chea]) 
gun  and  a  dear  gun?  A. — In  a  great  many  cases  there  is  not. 
60  Tilt'  only  difference  we  find  that  a  high  junce  gun  is  l»est  foi- 
working  it  lasts  longer;  the  machinery  is  better  in  every  way. 

Q. — The  actual  shooting,  can  any  person  see  a  difference  as 
a  rule?  A. — I  do  not  think  so  in  my  j'xperience.  I  liave  seen 
a  low  price  gun  sluwit  as  well  as  a  high  price  gun. 

(J. — In  going  after  seal  in  a  cano«',  is  it  done  witli  a  paddle 
or  with  oars?    A. — With  a  paddle. 

Q. — Is  not  the  same  thing  d<me  with  a  bn.'it?  A. — No,  sir, 
the  boat  is  pushed  with  oars. 


20 


30 


321 

Q. — TIm'  hIioi'I  ohim  in  the  HtiM'ii?     A. — V«'h.  nH'. 

i}. — Tln'  iippi-oiich  to  the  Hciil,  I  bt'licvo,  \h  flint  p'lU'riill.v 
<l<>iu'  nt  a  Hxi'd  Hpt't'd  or  hIowIj?  A. — Do  ,voiJ  iiH'tin  tln'  lant 
Hl»pro«cli? 

Q. — TIh'  last  approach?  A. — The  hiHt  a])pruacli  in  v»'ry 
hIow. 

Q. — Aft«'r  witliin  wliat  distance?     A. — Fifty  .vardH. 

Q. — Now  wlu'n  yon  pet  witliin  tliat  «'lost'  tliat  yon  Inivc 
dcHciibcd  tO'  a  Hcal,  \h  tlicro  any  j^rcat  anionnt  of  Hkill  r*M|niri>d 
10  in  actmilly  shooting  a  soal?      A. — No,  not  a  (jivat  d.uil. 

<'i'OH8-(>xaniination  by  Mr.  Dickinson. 

ii. — IH8(»  was  yonr  first  time  out,  was  it?     A. — Yoh,  sir. 

Q. — Yon  were  ii  bojif  pnlh>r?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

ii. — And  not  a  hnntcr?    A. — No. 

(}. — Did  yon  keep  any  nicnionindnni  of  th«'  catch?  A. — I 
(lid  not. 

Q. — And  did  yon  kwp  any  memorandum  of  the  catch  in 
1SS7?    A.— No,  sir. 

(j. — I  think  von  got  1!M)  H«>alH  on  the  2nd  of  Anjj;nsT  (»n  fite 
"I'athfinder"  In  1886?  A.— Yes,  the  first  or  second  I  ain't 
certain  about  that  date. 

Q. — You  were  sealing;,  I  think  you  said,  in  1887,  the  year 
followinjj?     A. — YiM*,  sir. 

Q. — And  you  became  a  hunter?     A. — Not  in  1887. 

i}. — You  were  still  a  boat  i»uller?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i.— And  in  1888?     A.— I  was  hunter  on  the  "Pathfinder." 

Q.— And  in  188!)?  A.— In  18SS  I  was  hunter  on  the  "I'ene- 
{•►pe,  and  in  188!»  on  the  "Pathfinder." 

Q._18!)(»?    A.— On  the  "Triumph," 

Q.— 18!H?     A.— Master  of  theCarlotta  Tox. 

(i.— 18!t2?     A.— Master  of  the  "Carlotta  <'ox. 

<i — Enpi(;ed  in  sealinj;?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  you  remember,  do  you,  that  on  i...'  2nd  of  Anfjust, 
188(!,  you  beinjf  the  boat  puller  you  got  1!>5  seals?  A. — 1st 
or  2n(l  of  Augnst. 

Q.— That  on  the  .'ifli  you  got  40?     A.— Yes,  sir. 

(2. — Now,  will  ycui  be  kind  enough  to  tell  me  how  much 
you  got  (»n  the  1st  or  2nd  of  August,  1887?     A. — No. 

Q. — Will  you  be  good  enough  to  ti'll  us  lu»w  nuiny  you  got 
on  the  4th  of  August,  1887?     A.— No,  sir. 

(■i. — \Yill  you  kindly  tell  ns  how  much  you  got  in  1888  on 
the  2nd  of  August?  A.— 1888,  2nd  of  August,  \  •  were  flsli- 
ing  at  the  <'onnunnder  Islands  then. 

(i. — Sealing?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i. — And  the  other  years  that  yon  have  told  of,  you  were 
sealing  in  Hehinng  Sea  in  August?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

<}. — How  many  did  you  get  on  the  4th  of  August,  1888? 
A.  — I  do  not  remember. 

<}. — How  many  did  you  get  (m  the  first  ten  days  In  August 
in  1888?     A. — I  do  not  remember. 

H. — '  V  many  did  you  get  the  ;ii>  ten  days  of  August  in 
18S7?    A. — I  do  not  remember. 

Ci- — How  niiiny  did  yon  get  on  the  2nd  of  August  in  1889? 
A. — I  do  not  remember. 

Q. — The  first  ten  days  of  Augtist — the  whole  month  of 
August?    A. — I  do  not  remember. 

(i. — How  nniny  on  the  4th  of  August  in  any  of  those  years? 
ho  A. — I  do  not  renu'mber. 

(i.— 18!K>?     A.— No. 

ii.— 18rtl?     A.— No. 

Q.— 1892?    A.— No. 

0— Yon  became  a  master  in  1891?     A.— Yes.  sir. 

Q. — A  master  of  a  sealing  ship?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— .And  kept  the  record?     A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — .Vnd  you  cannot  remember  how  much  yon  got  on  any 


40 


iO 


(lav? 
21 


A. — Oh,  \■^'t>,  I  can  remeniber. 


Ii!' 


ii 


'0'i 


i  1  !l 


i22 


Ml'tr    ,      'I 


30 


iy — WIh'U  ,vuu  wi'vv  iiiiiHti'r?     A. — Ycm. 

ti. — How  ninii.v  did  .vuu  fivi  on  tli«'  4lli  of  Aii^uhI,  ISIH?  A. 
— I  do  not  reuH  inltci'  liow  nnin.v  I  K<>t  •»>  '!>*'  l*l>  <>f  AuKUHt. 

ii — Mow  niiin.v  on  tJu-  HiHt  li-n  dii.vs  of  Aii);uKt  tluil  .vou 
w«'i<'  mnHtcr?  A. —  I  did  not  HhIi  fttr  t«'n  days.  1  wuh  order- 
ed  out  of  Itclirin);  Hen  on  tlic  iHt  of  Annnst. 

»i.— WVi'c  yon  Hnliin;.'  ten  dtiyn  in  Auj,'H«t,  IS'Jl,  wlit'u  you 
wi'ir  cai'liiin?     A. — \o. 

(i. — How  ninny  days?     A. — S  days. 
10       (j. — How   many  did  yon   ^i^•t  alto^ctiit-r   in   Auf^uHt,   IH'M, 
wlh-n  yon  w«*n'  nniKtcr?     A. — I  do  not  r<'ni»'nil»t'r. 

(i. — And  all  tlic  otlicr  y<  arn  I'xn'pt  \HHVt  you  weri'  a  liunti'r. 
and  1HH7?     A.— Y»h.  sir." 

(2. — Attually  cuKaKcd  in  HluMttin^  Kcais?    A. — Ych. 

Q. — Now  ran  you  tell  nx  wlu'u  yon  wtTc  out  in  1SS7.  liow 
nianv  m'als  you  Rot  in  Juiv,  tlio  first  twclvu  days?  A. — No, 
not  18H7. 

li.— In  1887  von  w»'ie  still  on  the  "Patlifind«i"?    A.— Yt's, 
nil'. 
20       Q- — And  you  wen*  still  a  boat  inillor?     A. — Yos,  sir. 

Q. — \Yh«'n  did  yon  coninK'nre  to  take  seals  in  1887?  W»> 
coninienced  on  tlie  '2Ut\\  of  June. 

ii. — Did  you  get  any  seals  in  June?  A. — Yes,  we  got  5(i 
on  the  2!tth.  I  don't  renuMuber  whether  we  lowered  on  the 
;{((th  or  not. 

ii, — Can  vou  reuH'inber  what  vou  got  in  July,  1887?  A. — 
No. 

Q. — When  vou  coninieneed  to  get  the  largest  cafi-h  in  Jjily? 
.v.— No. 

Q. — Now  you  knew  Ed.  Shields  to  be  an  experienced  hun- 
ter, didn't  you?    A. — No,  sir. 

y.— Reputed  as  such?     \.—Y 

(J. — And  how  long  had  he  b' 
sealing  <Jne  year  previous  to  1 

ii. — ^Yllat  was  he  on?     A. — . 

Q. — And  hi'  had  e.xperience  in  188(!  only,  had  he?     A. — Yes. 

Q. — You  knew  him  to  be  reputi'd  as  an  exjieiieneed  hunter? 
.V. — I  i»reHume  he  had  been  <.ut  on  the  <'oast,  but  I  don't  know 
as  he  liad  been  out  as  a  hunter  before. 

Q.— Not  before  188(J?     A —Yes. 

ii. — .\nd  when  did  his  rejiutation  eonimenee  as  an  exper- 
ieneed  hunter?     A. — He  had  Ix-en  a  hunter  all  his  life. 

Q.— A  seal  luinN'r?     A.— No. 

Q. — But  when  did  his  re|)utation  eomnjence  as  a  seal  hunt- 
er.     A. — I  presume  ii  was  in  188<}. 

Q.— Did  vou  p\dl  for  Shields  in  ISSti.      A.— No,  sir. 

Q.— In  1887?      A.— No,  sir. 

(J. — Did  not  see  hitu  hunt?  A. — Yea,  I  saw  him  in  1887,  I 
was  aboard  the  sanu'  schooner. 

Q. — You  did  not  pull  for  hlni.      A.— No. 

Q. — You  wero  not  in  the  boat  with  him.      A. — No. 

Q. — Did  you  see  him  kill  a  seal?      .\. — Yes. 

Q. — How  many  times  did  you  see  him  kill  a  seal.  A. — 
Oh.  a  great  many  times. 

Cj. — Now  about  f'otsford,  vou  did  not  know  his  reputation 
in  .S87?      A.— No. 

Q. — Do  you  know  his  re])utation  since.      A. — Yes. 

Q.— Oood?       A.— Yes. 

i}. — Fine  sealer?     A. — Yes. 

60  Q. — When  did  you  know  of  Cotsford  sealing?  A. — Oh, 
some  foni-  or  five  years  ago. 

Q. — Since  that  tinu'  at  all?  A. — No  I  never  had  him  with 
me  since,  nor  I  never  have  been  shipmat*'  with  him. 

Q. — Only  know  him  by  rejiutation?      A. — That  is  all. 

Q. — Is  he  here?      A. — I  Ix'lieve  not. 

Q. — Do  you  know  where  he  is.      A. — No. 


40 


SO 


filing?     A. — He  had  been 
I  arolcna"  in  188«!. 


i2i 


MiiiiNic  In  inm  iiiul 
thou; 


Q. — Voii   wtTi'  ill   (li«'  finplu^v  of  Mr. 
1HW7?      A.— YcH. 

t^. — Did  .voii  Kff  liny  ni<-inoi'tindiiin  of  a  catch  for 
liarticnhir  ila^H  in  AiisuHt?      A. — No,  nir. 

(/.— IMd  .VOII  iaili  Willi  Mr.  MiuihIi'  about  it.      A.-  Xo. 

ii. — Voii  ih'vci-  iiavo  hci'ii  a  iiu-iiioraiidiiiii  of  u  catch  for 
|S,S(i?       A.-— No. 

(/.—On  the  "I'athtliidtT.      A.— No. 

(/. — IMd  .von  fonnt  tho  waJK?      A. — No. 
10       </. — WiuMi  ,vou  wiM'c  a  lioat  pnllcr?      A. — Onl.v  iii.v  own. 

ti.— In  1SS«  and  1HS7.  onl.v  your  own?      A.— Vis,  IHStJ. 

ii — Did  flicy  iiHc  t;;iinH  and  lioinH  in  lHH(i?      A. — Y»'h. 

(i.— To  call  the  lioatK?      A.— Y»'H. 

(j. — Now,  witiu'HH.  canoi'H  .von  think  ar»'  aH  (food  iih  boiitH? 
\. — In  what  way? 

Q. — In  the  Hcaliiii;?  A. — I  did  not  Hay  that;  I  Haid  I 
tlioii^ht  tlu-y  would  covor  an  nincli  Kronnd. 

Q. — Tlii'y  art'  not  coiiHidopcd  iih  fjood  for  Bcalin^);,  are  thi'y, 
iiH  hoatH?      A. — Yt'B,  I  think  ho. 
20       Q- — Foi'  all  imrpoHCH?      A. — Y»'h. 

Q. — Yon  can  ^ct  ciiiioch — boiiic  an'  cIichimt  than  boatB?  A. 
— I  don't  know  about  that,  I  don't  know  what  the  prico  of  a 
canoe  in. 

(i.— What  is  the  i>ric«»  of  a  boat?      A.— 1100.  about. 

(i. — Now  m'lu'rally  tlu'  larp'  Hi'tilcrn  urn'  the  boats  do  they 
not?     A. — Only  tlioHc  who  take  white  men  iiw  boatH. 

(J. — Are  not  white  men  considered  better  than  Indians?  A. 
-No,  sir. 

(J.— Not  better  hunters?      A.— No. 
o.?      (). — They  are  no'  more  desirable?      A. — No,  I  presunie'they 
are  not  as  desiral)!*'  as  Indians  at  the  present  time. 

(i.— I  am  speakiiiK  of  ISHti  and  1H.S7.  A.— Well.  I  do  not 
know  at  that  time  they  were  about  equal;  I  think  the  Indian 
was  just  as  desirable  as  the  white  man. 

Q. — And  they  accomplished  aw  jjood  results  in  the  canoe,  I 
suppose.      A.— Yes,  according  to  the  amount  they  carried. 

Q.— And  what  had  the  "I'athtlnder"  In  188(}?  A.— She  had 
white  men. 

(i. — And  boats?     A. — Y'es,  boats. 
40      Q.— Do  you  know  any  reason  why  they  didn't  have  canoes 
and  Indians.      A. — No  none  whatever. 

Q._What  did  she  have  in  1887.      A.— She  had  boats. 

(i. — And  white  men.     A. — Y^es. 

ti.— And  in  1888  von  were  on  the  ?     A.— "Penelope." 

Q.— What  did  she  have?      A.— She  had  boats. 

Q.— And  Indians?      A.— No. 

Q.— White  men?      A.— Yes 

Q.— Next  year,  188(-,  the  same?      A.— Yes. 
50       Q. — I  suppose  the  object  of  goina;  up  to  Itehriiif^  Pea  is  to 
jjet  as  many  seals  as  possible?      A. — Yes,  that  is  the  object. 

(i. — And  in  1888,  when  you  first  became  master,  did  you 
have  white  men  or  Iiidians.      A. — White  men. 

Q. — And  boats.      A. — Yes. 

Q- — Can  white  men  use  a  canoe  as  well  as  an  Indian?  A. — 
I  think  so. 

Q- — They  can  "et  over  as  much  ground  in  a  canoe  as  an  In- 
dian can  can  they''      A. — W^s. 


60 


He  direct  examination  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q.— Y'ou  were  asked  by  Mr.  Dickinson  as  to  the  catch  .von 
had  made  In  certain  other  years.  As  a  matter  of  fact  is  tliere 
iiny  reason  why  you  can  tell  us  what  .vou  did  in  the  first  four 
iliiys  of  August,  188((,  how  is  it  .von  come  to  remember  that? 
A— Well,  lil'i  is  a  |»heii<imeiial  catch  for  live  Vioats,  that  is  the 
i"a.son  I  remember  it  so  distinctlv. 


U  ".n 


lO 


20 


324 

Q. — Do  .von  t'viT  ri'iiu'inbei-  Hiicli  a  lui-f,'*'  witch  lu'liif?  iiiiidc 
with  five  bostts.  A. — Yos.  I  made  another  such  a  catch  iu 
1S!U,  1!M>  witli  five  boats. 

Q. — I'robably  .von  can  tell  na  the  dale  of  that,  can't  you? 
A. — Yes,  sir,  I  can  tell  von  date  of  that. 

Q.— What  date  was  it?      A.— The  20th  of  July. 

Q. — And  that  is  what  fixes  the  date  in  your  memory.  A. — 
Yea,  air. 

Q. — You  were  aato'd  something  about  the  difference  be- 
tween white  men  and  Indiana.  I  simply  want  to  asJv  you 
this  question:  In  1S8«>  and  1SS7  were  the  Indians  in  the  habit 
of  usinfj  guna  at  all.      A. — No. 

Q. — So  that  if  you  had  an  Indian  crow  at  that  time  you 
would  have  to  use  spears.      A. — Yes,  air. 

(J. — At  that  time  whicli  were  con)»idered  best,  speara  or 
guna.      A. — Guns. 

Q. — You  stat<'d  with  regard  to  Shields  that  you  had  only 
known  him  for  the  year  1)^S7  and  that  his  seal  liunting  so  far 
as  you  knew  had  only  been  in  lS8fi?  I  understood  you  to 
say  something  about  liis  being  a  hunter  all  hi.-^  life.  A. — Not 
a  seal  hunter — he  was  hunting  around  the  islands,  deer  hunt- 
ing, and  so  on,  ever  since  he  was  a  boy. 


30 


He-cross  examination  by  Mr.  Dickinsim: 

Q. — The  catch  of  40  on  the  day  that  you  named  in  August, 
was  not  plienomenal  was  it.  A. — No,  the  reason  I  remember 
that  so  distinctly  was  because  we  were  out  half  a  day  and  wc 
had  to  leave  and  go  home. 


<<••(!(((■    H 


("liarles    Augustus    Lundberg  was    called  on    the  part    of 
Great  Hritain  and  duly  sworn. 

40  i^ii'  <'•  H.  Tujiper; — In  one  of  the  reports  read  to  the 
("(tmmission  yesterday  from  the  seizing  officers,  the  catcli  of 
tile  "Ada"  was  said  (o  be  1H7(!  skins;  and  1  wish  to  examine 
Mr.  Lundberg  slioitly  witli  reference  to  tiiat  catch. 

Direct  examination  by  Sir  (\  II.  Tapper: 

(i. — Wliat  wa.s  your  position  on  tlie  schooner  "Ada?"      A. 
—  I  was  mate. 

(i.— In  wiiat  year?      A.— ISST. 
50       Q- — Had  you  any  other  duties  beside  mate.      A. — Well  I 
was  mate  and  liead  liunter. 

i}. — When  did  you  first  begin  sealinu?      A. — I  began  seal- 
ing ill  1SS(» 

Q. — And  you  followed  that  line  of  business  from  that  up? 
'A. — No,  not  riglit  thi'ough.  I  stayed  ashore. 

Q. — When  were  yon  sealing  again.       A. — Well,  I  sealed  in 
ISSU-Sl  and  1S,S2  in  the  fall. 

Q. — You  went  as  diief  hunter  on  tlie  ''.Vda"  from  what 
port?       A. — From  Yokohiima.       I  did  not  go  as  mate  from 
60   Yokohama;  as  mate  from  N'ictoria,  and  chief  hnnt«'i'. 

(2.— In  tliis  s<"ason  of  l.SS"?      A.— 1SH7. 

Q. — Did  you  go  direct  to  ISehring  Sea  in  that  season?      .\. 
— X<»;  we  went  down  on  the  coast  for  a  month. 

Q. — Wliiit  did  you  catch  on  the  coast?      A. — .'U'.l  skins. 

(). — Wliat  did  you  do  with  (hem?      A. — Sent  them  on  board 
of  I  lie  "I'cnelope"  to  come  ii|>  liere. 

(J. —  You  sliipped  those  caught  on  (lie  coast  on  (lie  "I'enc- 
lope"?     A. — Yes, 


20 


'^0 


325 

Q. — What  (lid  Iho  "Ada"  d«^  then;  where  did  slie  go?  A. — 
We  went  out  to  try  and  get  some  more,  but  we  did  not  get 
iiiiy,  we  only  got  seven  »k\uti  and  eanie  batk  to  Victoria  again. 

Q. — Then  wliar  did  you  do.  A. — We  fitted  out  for  lieliring 
Sea 

(.i  —A  nd  weiit  ?      A .— ^'es. 

(J.— When  did  you  sail  direct  for  Tteliring  Sea?  A.— The 
iTtli  of  June. 

y. — How  many  skins  did  you  get  on  tlie  way  before  you 
10  >r()t  into  Heliring  8ea?      A. — We  only  got  five  skins. 

Q. — I>o  yon  ircoll«'(t  the  eatcli — total  catcli  on  tliat  last 
lrij»?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— What  was  it?      A.— 1,87«. 

(.}. — And  tae  five  out  of  that  were  caught  outside  of  the 
Sea?      A. — Yes.  they  were  cauglit  on  the  way  up. 

Q.— Where  were  tiie  1,871  caught?      A.— In  IJehring  Sea. 

(J. — Wliat  happened  to  you  during  that  season — to  thp 
sliij*  after  your  lutch?      .\. — We  were  seized. 

Q. — What  date;  do  you  renienilter  the  day?  A. — Yes,  sir. 
the  2r)th  of  Auarust. 

Q. — IIow  was  the  sealing  tlien?  A  — It  was  good;  cauglit 
;!S  iM'fore  breakfast. 

* 

Cross-examination  by  Sir.  Warren: 

Q. — Mr.  Lundberg  you  liad  seven  canoes  and  two  sealing 
boats?  A. — We  liad  .seven  canoes  and  tlie  sk'rn  boat  and 
one  boat — one  Doat  and  stern  boat. 

(i. — Tliat  made  seven  canoes  and  two  boats?     A. — Yes. 

i}. — I  "id  you  liave  whit(?  hunters  or  Indians?  A. — In- 
dians. 

Q. — Tlie  Indians  sealed  in  the  boats  as  well  as  the  cano<'s? 
A.— Tlie  interpreter  hunted  in  one  boat  and  the  Indians 
li anted  in  canoes. 

(i. — Were  the  boats  out  considerable  of  the  time.  A. — 
Tile  stern  boat  was  out  very  seldom. 

iy — Tlie  other  lioat  was  out  wlu'U  the  canoes  were  out? 
.\.— Yes. 

(i.— And  who  was  in  that?      A. — The  interpreter  we  had. 

0. — What  time  did  you  get  into  the  Sea?  A. — We  went 
into  the  Sea — we  went  through  the  pass  on  the  IStli  of  July. 

(■i. — And  you  hunted  continuously  during  the  days  you 
could  lower  your  boats  until  August  2r)th?      A. — Yes,  sir 

(■i. — Were  you  not  ready  to  leave  the  Sea?     A. — No,  sir. 

{]. — The  same  day  you  were  seized,  the  "Allie  I.  Alger" 
was  seized?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Isn't  it  a  fact  that  you  and  the  "Allie  I.  Alger"  had 
made  arrangements  to  leave  the  Sea  the  day  before  you  were 
50  seized?      A, — No,  sir. 

(i. — You  have  got  a  claim  tlien  iu'fore  this  ('onimissi<m 
have  you  not?      A.     i  have. 

(i. — And  it  dcjU'iidM  somewhat  on  whether  the  season  had 
dosed  does  it  not.  :  t  th»'  time  you  were  seized?  A. — Oh,  I 
don't  know. 

(i.—  Do  not  know  that?      A. — Xo. 

Q.— Is  it  a  fact  that  you  were  towed  into  Ounalaska  by  the 
•'utter  at  the  same  time  as  the  "Allie  I.  Alger?"  A.— Yes. 
sir. 

Q.--.\nd  at  the  time  vour  w«'re  seized  wer<>  you  along  side 
of  the  "Allie  I.  Alger?''       A.— A>'e  v.ere  n;>t, 

Q.— IIow  far  were  you  from  her?      A  —I  don't  know. 

Q. — Was  she  seized  first?  A. — She  was  in  tow  when  he 
itune  along  to  us. 

Q. — IIow  many  Indians  were  there  hunting  from  each  one 
of  tliese  canoes,  armed  with  guns  or  spears?  A. — Holh  guns 
iiiul  spears. 


40 


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\'t.  !:'M  i'iil'i 
•■,  i  '■■ii  !•  ill' 


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326 

Q. — What  guns?  A. — Sliot  guns,  donblod-barrpled,  I  do 
not  rt'iiK'iiibpr  the  make  of  thein.  We  got  them  up  from  Han 
Pranciseo  any  way,  a  box  of  gnns. 

Q. — What  was  the  registered  tonnage  of  the  "Ada,"  yon 
lomeniber?      A. — Slie  was  Or>  tons  and  some  odd. 

Q. — That  was  what  she  was  registered  at  Yokohama.  A. 
— She  registered  at  Shanghai. 

Q. — What  was  tlie  British  measurement.  A. — 05  tons 
that  was  marked  on  her. 

Kir  r.  H.  Tapper: — That  is  British  measurement. 

(i— Were  you  in  th<'  Sea  in  1HS(!?     A.— No. 

H. — >Vas  tins  yonr  ttrst  trip  in  1SH7?  A. — No,  sir,  I  was  in 
tlie  Sea  in  1881. 

Q. — Hunting  seals?    A. — Yes. 

Q. — What  else  were  you  hunting  besides  seals?  A. — Sea 
otters. 

Q. — Printipally  for  sea  otters?    A. — Principally     for    sea 
otters. 
20       Q. — Didn't  take  many  seals?    A. — No.  we  only  got  four 
hundred  and  odd,  coming  aeros-s  the  sea. 


lO 


30 


Robert  E.  ifcKeil  was  called  as  a  witness  on  the  part  of 
(ireat  Britain  and  duly  sworn. 

Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Bodwell. 


Q. — Where  do  you  live  Mr.  McKeil?     A. — Victoria. 

Q. — What  is  your  occupatiim?  A. — Master  of  a  sealing 
schooner. 

Q. — Were  you  engaged  in  sealinjr  in  1887?    A. — I  was. 

Q. — Had  vou  been  engaged  in  sealing  before  that  time?    A. 
—I  had, 
Q       Q. — Where  were  yon  engaged  in  sealing  in  1887?    A. — On 
the  coast  and  in  Behring  Sea. 

Q. — In  what  cajfacity  did  you  go?    A, — Master. 

Q.— Of  what  vessel?"    A.— "Mary  Taylor." 

Q. — How  many  boats  did  you  hav«'?  A. — I  had  six  on  start- 
ing out  from  San  Francisco;  I  lost  one  boat,  she  was  smashed 
aboard,  and  from  that  time  I  had  tive;  that  was  in  I\[arch  I 
think. 

(i. — From  that  time  you  hunted  with  live.     A. — From  that 
time  we  hunted  with  five. 
tjo       Q- — Where  were  you  when  you  lost  tlie  bo.-it,  in  what  jM)si- 
tion  generally  speaking?     .\. — We  was  about  ott'  ('ape  Beale. 
I  think  about  '-'(I  miles  otT  shor<>. 

(i.--Did  yon  go  to  Belirin-.;  Sea?    A. — I  did. 

(i. — Did  vou  keep  a  htg  .•nd  a  record  of  vour  vovage?  A. — 
I  did. 

Q. — Do  you  know  what  has  become  of  that?  A. — It  was 
left  with  tiu-  sch(>oi:er  wh;'n  I  h'ft  iier 

(J. —  And  you  have  not  seen  it  since?  A. — I  have  not  seen 
it  sinr:e. 
60  Q' — Have  you  any  recollection  as  to  the  time  when  you  en 
ter«'d  Behring  Sea?  A. — Somewhere  b«'tween  the  20th  of 
•Inne  and  the  2r>th,  I  am  not  certain.  I  think  it  was  the  2.trd 
or  the  24th. 

(J. — How  long  did  you  stay  in  the  Sea?  A. — I  came  out  of 
the  i)ass  aliout  the  last  of  July,  I  am  not  certain  about  that 
date  there. 

Q. — Was  it  later  than  the  end  of  Julv?  A. — No,  it  was  la 
Jnlv. 


327 

Q. — What  was  tlu>  (iccawon  of  your  having  the  Sea  at  that 
lime.  A. — I  heard  that  tliere  was  a  nuiiibtr  of  schooners 
seized,  and  in  fact  I  was  told  thai  tlie  cutter  was  loolving  for 
nie.  my  vessl,  so  I  conchided  to  U'ave. 

Q. — How  nianv  seals  did  von  have  up  to  that  date  in  the 
Sea?  A.— I  could  not  be  certain,  but  1  had  about  700— 7;{(», 
OP  somewhere  along  about  that. 

Q. — Can  you  give  us  the  whole  catch  for  that  year?     A. — 
The  whole  catch  was  1,040. 
10      Q. — You  are  not  certain  as  to  the  amounts  you    had    in 
IJeliring  Sen?    A. — No. 

(J. — How  was  the  weather  when  you  left?  A. — It  was  fine 
weather. 

Q. — Can  you  state  generally  in  wliat  part  of  the  Sea  you 
were  working?  A. — To  the  southward  and  westward  of  Saint 
(leorge's  Island. 

Q. — You  would  be  able  to  indicate  generally  on  the  chart? 
A. — I  would. 

Q. — Look  at  tlie  chart  of  Hehring  Sea  and  give  me  your 
20  position  generally,  by  latitude  and  longitude,  if  you  can?    A. 
— (F^xamining  chart)  In  the  vicinity  of  KO  north  latitude,  171 
west  longitude. 

Q. — It  was  about  that  position?  A. — In  that  vicinity.  I 
know  the  bearings  of  the  islands. 

Q. — Did  you  have  occasion  to  go  for  any  water  that  year? 
A.— I  had. 

Q. — Where  did  you  go?    A. — To  Tnimak  Island. 

Q. — From  what  position  did  you  go  to  I'nimak  Island  for 
water?    About  that  position  I  named. 
30       ().— When  did  you  go?    A.— I  left  the  24th  of  July. 

i}. — Did  you  get  back  to  the  sealing  grounds?  A. — I  never 
got  the  water.  While  I  was  going  down  for  the  water  I 
spoke  the  schojmer. 

Q.— You  quit  sealing  tlii'n.  on  the  24th  of  July?  A. — No, 
I  sealed— I  think  I  sealed  <m  the  28th— 27th  or  28th. 

(i.--You  did  not  go  l)a(k  to  the  ground  where  you  had 
been?    A. — I  did  not. 

Q. — You  have  seal(>d  in  other  seasons?     A. — I  have. 

(j. — Are  you  r   ing  to  be  away  for  some  time,  Mr.  McKeil? 
40  A. — I  am  not  (     lain,  I  may  have  to  go  away. 

The  ("dmniissioners  took  recess  until  2::i0  p.m. 


At  2:.']0  the  Commissionora  resumed  their  seats. 

Mr.  Lansing: — If  the  Commissioners  jtlease,     m.\     learned 
friend,  Mr.    I'eters,  called  for  the  logs   uf   the  "Kllen,"   the 
50  "Annie,"  the  "Alfred  Adams,"  the  "Ada"  and  the  "Orace"  for 
1HS7.    Is  that  correct,  Mr,  Peters? 

Mr.  Peters:—!  would  like  the  "Alfred  Adiims."' 

(Pajx'rs  passed  to  coiinsel  for  Great  Ilrilain.) 

Crosscxaminalion  of  Mr.  Keil  by  Mr.  Warren: 

Q. — Cai»tain  McKeil,  you  used  five  boats  on  the  "Mary 
^  Taylor"  throughout  the  season  of  1SK7,  or  so  long  as  you 
'^  were  in  the  Sea,  did  you  not?     A.— Let  me  see,  yes. 

(J. — And  did  you  have  Indians,  or  white     hunters?     A. — 
White  hunters. 
Q.— How  many  men  in  a  boat?    A. — Three  men  in  a  boat. 
Q. — Is  it  an  advantage  to  have  three  men  in  a  boat?    A. — 
Yes. 

(i.— .\nd  yon  would  not  have  such  grod  results  with  two 
men  in  a  boat?  A.— Well,  no,  three  men  do  better  work  than 
two  men. 


iiii!'- ' 


32S 


ill 


20 


30 


40 


•ulMi 


50 


60 


Q. — Onf  of  them  pulls;  tlii"  b«iiit,  one  of  them  ntcers  the  bout 
iuid  one  of  them  shoots?  A. — Well,  .yes,  the  steerer's  w(H'k  is 
to  }iet  up  (m  the  seals,  he  steers  the  boat  up  on  the  seal. 

ii. — .\nd  )>utside  of  that  time  he  also  pulls?  A, — I'ulls  oi* 
l»UKhes. 

Q. — Is  it  a  fact  that  sometimes  the  ])uller  or  steercr,  or 
both,  shoot?    A. — Never,  to  my  knowledge. 

(i- — Hut  where  theiv  are  three  men  in  a  boat,  it  gives  tlw 
hunter  better  opjMirtunitv  to  shoot  than  where  there  are 
<mly  two?    A. — Yes.  the  hunter  has  a  better  opportunity. 

(i- — And  it  is  to  be  exitected  that  lie  would  have  better  re- 
sults?    A.— KxieUy. 

Q. — What  did  the  hunters  use,  fjuns,  that  v«'ar  on  tin* 
".Miry  Taylor"?    A.— Shot  .mins. 

Q.--Kifl<>s  also?    A.-  IJitles  and  shot  jjuns. 

Q. — Did  they  buy  their  own  puns,  or  did  you  buy  them? 
A. — The  seliooner  bouf^ht  them. 

Q. — Hoth  rifles  and  shot  guns?      A. — Yes. 

(J. — And  did  you  hny  the  ammunition?  A. — Yes,  every- 
thing. 

Q. — What  was  the  tonnage  of  the  "Mary  Taylor?  A. — I 
can't  recollect.  I  think  about  4r)  tons  register. 

Q. — Was  she  a  Itritish  ship?  A. — She  was  under  the  Brit- 
ish flag  while  I  was  on  her. 

Q. — Registered  at  the  port  of  Victoria?  A.— Registered  at 
the  port  of  Victoria? 

Q. — Afterwards  owned  by  Mr.  Munsie  was  she  not?  A. — I 
believe  Mr.  Munsie  bought  her  afterwards. 

Q. — When  did  he  buy  her?      A. — I  can't  recollect  that. 

Q. — Who  owned  her  when  you  were  in  her?  A. — Captain 
J.  1).  Warren. 

Q. — Did  Captain  Warren  sell  her  to  Mr.  Munsie?  A. — I 
d(m't  know  that;  I  was  away  from  Victoria  at  the  time. 

Q. — You  think  von  went  into  the  Sea  somewhere  between 
the  2(Hh.  and  the  iTith.  of  June?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — And  came  out  the  latter  part  of  July?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Hecause  you  heard  of  the  seizures?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — In  1S,S7  what  boats  did  you  sjieak  in  the  Sea.  if  you 
can  remember  them?  \. —  I  spoke  the  "Pathfinder,"  the 
"O.  S.  Fowler"  and  the  ",\dele,"  three  schoners. 

Q. — You  spoki'  the  "Svlvia  Handy,"  ddn't  you?      A. — No. 

Q.— Which  boat  told  you?      A.— I  think  the  "O.  S.  Fowler." 

Q. — She  was  a  San  Francis«'o  boat?      A. — I  think  so,  y«'8. 

t^. — The  "Adele"  was  Captain  Hansen's  boat?     A. — Yes. 

Q.— You  did  not  see  the  "Little  Triumph?"      A.— No. 

Q. — You  say  that  you  were  hunting  down  near  the  Aleu- 
tian Islands  in  July?  A. — I  believe  I  lowered  down  there, 
T  know  of  once,  and  I  may  have  lowered  twice. 

Q. — You  took  th(>  most  of  your  seals  down  in  that  vicinity, 
didn't  you?  A.--I  got  the  most  of  my  seals  about  00  miles 
southwest  from  St.  Oeorge's  Island,  in  that  vicinity;  I  can't 
tell  the  distance  exactly  now,  it  was  near  a  supposed  island. 
If  was  marked  on  the  old  charts. 

Q. — 50  or  (to  miles  in  what  dii-ection  from  St.  deorge's  Is- 
land? A. — To  the  srtuthward  and  westward;  I  c(»uldn't  say 
the  exact  bearingss. 

Q.— You  took  1,040  seals  in  the  Sea  that  year?  A.— No, 
1  took  that  for  the  season  altogether. 

(>. — .\nd  Iiow  many  <lid  you  take  in  the  Sea  proper?  A. — 
W«'ll,  I  can't  tell  exactly;  I  landed  I'iT  seals  on  the  w«'st  coast, 
and  I  caught  somewhere  about  100  on  the  way  up,  and  the 
balance  I  got  in  the  Sea. 

Q.— Does  this  1,040  include  the  107  that  you  landed?  A. 
— Yes. 

Q. — It  includes  your  entire  season's  work?  A. — Knfire  sea- 
son's work. 


329 

Q.— Where  did  you  land  the  167-      A.— 1  think  I  put  them 
iibotird  of  the  "\V.  1'.  Siiyward"  in  Dodge's  Cove. 

Mr.  llodwell: — Ih   that   on   tlie   west   coast?    A. — On  the 
west  coast. 


A.— About  100  miles, 
A. — Yes,  about 
A. — Yes,  nearer 


20 


Q. — How  far  from  here  is  that? 
somewhere  near  100  miles. 

Q. — This  side  of  Clayoquot  Sound  then? 
five  miles  from  (Jape  iieale. 
10      (J.— More  than  1,000  from  Behring  Sea? 
1,.'3I)0  miles. 

Q. — And  you  sealed  from  that  point  to  Hehring  Sea  didn't 
you?  A. — Vt^,  I  sealed  oif  (^ueen  ('harlotte  Island,  and 
several  times  afterwards  on  the  way  up. 

Q. — And  you  are  not  able  to  state  the  results?  A. — I  am 
able  to  state  tlie  results  of  two  days,  I  got  48  seais  off  Queen 
Charlotte.,  and  I  thinl;  41  at  I'ort  Lock  Kank. 

y. — I>id  you  lower  in  what  is  known  as  the  Fair  Weather 
;;rounds?  A. — No,  1  did  not  go  near  them  that  year,  1  took 
a  Hti-aiglit  course  from  Queen  C'luirlotte  Island  to  I'ort  Lock 
itank. 

Q. — Does  it  make  any  difference  in  the  results  whether 
white  men  us>»  canoes  or  boats,  do  you  think?  A. — Yes,  a 
great  deal  of  ditterence. 

Q. — Does  a  white  man  get  better  results  if  he  has  a  boat 
tluin  if  he  has  a  canoe?  A. — He  has  better  results  with 
boats. 

Q. — Wliy  is  that?  A. — Well  the  white  man  can't  get  ac- 
,_  customed  to  a  canoe  as  well  as  an  Indian;  at  least  I  know  I 
■-'°  can't. 

Q. — You  have  tried  it,  have  you?  A. — I  haven't  tried 
sealing;  but  I  have  Tried  going  around  in  canoes. 

Q. — You  have  tried  to  paddle  a  canoe?      A. — Paddle  them, 

>■<'»•  i   :  '* ,  :--i  I 

(i. — Did  you  ever  use  one  with  oars?      A. — No- 

Q. — Do  you  think  that  a  white  nian  in  a  boat  could  gei 
more  seals  than  if  he  was  using  a  canoe  with  oars?  A. — A 
wliite  ma  a  in  a  boat,  shooting,  would  get  more  seals  than  an 
40  Indian  in  a  canoe  shooting. 

Q. — A  wliite  nuin  shooting  in  a  boat  would  get  more  seals 
than  a  wliite  man  shooting  from  a  canoe?  A. — Yes,  that  is 
my  opinion. 

Q. — Proportionately,  what  difference  do  you  think  it  would 
make"  A. — Well  I  can't  say,  but  I  think  six  good  white 
liiiiiters  would  be  equal  to  ten  canoes,  the  average  canoes. 

Q, — You  are  now  comparing  white  hunters  with  Indians  in 
ciinoes?     A. — Yes. 

Q. — I  want  you  to  address  yourself  to  comparing  white  men 
50  ill  canoes  witli  white  men  in  boats?  A. — I  never  had  any 
white  uu'n  get  any  seals  in  a  canoe. 

Q. — Your  white  men  never  use  canoes?  A. — They  never 
did. 

Q. — Yon  don't  think  that  a  vessel  that  liad  canoes,  to 
lie  used  by  white  hunters,  would  be  as  well  equipped  as  a  ves- 
sel that  had  boats  to  be  used  by  white  hunters,  do  you?  A. 
— No.  I  don't  think  so. 

Q. — Now  you  roam  around  the  Sea  a  good  deal  looking  for 
Ctn  si':ils,  don't  you?  You  don't  stay  in  one  place?  A. — Not  if 
(here  is  no  seals  there. 

(i.— SoiiietimcH  sail  !"iO  or  70  miles  a  day?  A. — Yes.  I  have 
tteen  further  than  that  in  24  hours  looking  for  them. 

(i. — Do  you  think  that  because  one  vessel  takes  seals  in 
Iteliriiig  Hea  tliat  that  is  any  indication  that  another  could 
lake  fliem  in  the  same  jilace,  or  at  the  same  time?  A. — Well, 
if  llie  oilier  one  has  the  same  equipment,  she  would  stand  n 
cliance  of  making  (he  same  catch  of  seals. 


1: 


^^ 


Ml' 


330 

Q. — ThtTc*  is  a  poBsibility  you  iiK'an?  A. — PoHsiltility,  of 
one  vosst'l  innkiiig  a  f;<»'><l  <"atch,  and  anotluT  one  floso  to  Inn- 
making  a  poor  ono,  tlic  same  day. 

Q. — JiiHt  toll  the  ConiniiHsionors  wliy  tliis  is?  A. — Tlie 
only  reason  I  know  is,  tliat  tlie  seals  are  where  one  vessel  is 
and  not  where  another  vesbol  is. 

Q._I)o  you  believe  that  beiauso  the  "Mary  Taylor"  hap- 
pened to  lower  her  boats  on  a  certain  date  in  July  at  one 
place  in  the  Hea,  that,  at  a  distance  of  4(>  or  50  miles  from 
•o  that  place,  there  is  a  probability,  or  a  possibility,  that  the 
"Carolena,"  for  instance,  could  have  taken  the  same  number 
of  seals  in  another  part  of  the  Sea?  A.— Certainly  a  pos- 
sibility. 

Q. — Is  theve  any  probability?  A. — I  couldn't  say  for  sure; 
there  is  a  possibility. 

Q. — No  basis  on  which  you  can  absolutely  reckon  it,  is 
there?    A.— No. 

Q. — Do  you  think  there  is  any  hasis  upon  which  a  compar- 
ative catch  can  be  nnidt^ — estimated  catch?  A. — I  don't 
2°  know,  I  have  never  tliouj;ht  much  about  it. 

Q. — How  would  you  arrive  at  that  result  if  you  started  out 
to  reckon  it?     A. — I  don't  (juite  understand. 

(Question  not  pressed.) 

Q. — Where  was  the  "Mary  Taylor"  outfitted  that  year?  A. 
— San  Francisco,  when  she  started  out  first. 

Q. — In  those  days,  were  boats  sailinf;  from  the  port  of  San 
Francisco  better  eipiipped  and  outfitted  than  vessels  sailing 
from  the  port  of  \'ictoria?  A. — I  d(»n't  think  tiiey  wtrc. 
3°  Q. — Don't  you  know  that  they  were.  Captain,  as  a  matter 
of  fact?  A. — Had  a  better  e(iuipm(nt,  sailing  from  San 
Francisco? 

Q. — Yes?  A. — I  don't  think  that  they  had,  I  don't  know 
that  they  had. 

Q. — In  the  early  days  sealing  started  from  San  Francisco, 
didn't  it,  the  sealing  industry?  A. — I  don't  know,  I  wasn't 
liere. 

Q. — The  first  boat  that  ever  went  into  the  Sea  and  made  a 
business  of  sealing  was  the  "San   Diego."  wasn't  it?    A. — 
4°  I  couldn't  say,  I  might  possibly  Imve  lieard  that,  but  I  don't 
know  that  myself. 

i}. — She  sailed  from  San  Francisco,  difin't  she?  A. — I 
sailed  from  San  Francisco. 

Q. — She  skilled  from  San  Francisco?  A. — The  "San  Diego"? 

Q.— Yes?    A.— i  don't  know. 

<i. — Were  yon  in  Victoiia  in  188(i?  A. — Yes,  tlie  latter 
part  of  it. 

Q. — Were  you  in  the  Sea  in  IHStJ?  A. — No,  I  wasn't  seal- 
ing in  188(>  at  all. 

Q. — Wliy  did  you  go  down  to  San  Francisco  to  outfit  the 
"Mary  Taylor"  in  1HS7?  A.— Well,  I  had  nothing  to  say  in 
the  matter.      The  vessel  was  sent  down  there. 

Q. — Who  sent  her  down?    A. — Cajttain  Warren. 

Q. — Why  did  he  send  her  down  there,  unless  they  were 
outfitted  better  at  that  point?  A. — Well,  I  suppose  perhaps 
it  might  have  been  cheaper  to  outfit  her  there  at  San  Fran- 
cisco. I  suppose  that  was  probably  the  reason  she  was  sent 
there. 

Q. — You  used  to  carry  provisions  and  board  your  crew  and 
your  hunters  in  that  year,  didn't  you?  A. — Aboard  the  ves- 
sel, yes. 

Q. — And  did  you  furnish  everything?  A. — Furnished 
fverything,  yes. 

Q. — In  those  days  boats  «'quipped  with  Indian  hunters  iised 
to  sell  some  of  the  su|»i)lies  to  the  Indians,  did  they  not?  A. 
— I  suppose  they  did  carry  some.      On  the  sealing  grounds? 

Q. — Yes.      A. — Not  that  I  kiutw  of.      I  never  heard  of  it. 


SO 


6o 


331 

Q. — You  8Ji^*  vou  trausferred  your  skins  to  the  "VV.  P.  Say- 
ward;"  tliat  was  auolLor  ono  of  Cai>taiu  Warren's  boats,  was 
it  not?      A. — Yes. 

(J. — V.'as  it  a  common  thing  among  the  fleet  for  them  to 
transfer  cargoes  from  one  boat  to  anotlier?  A. — Well,  there 
were  two  steam  schooners,  and  the  skins  were  left  in  port 
for  one  of  these  schooners  to  take  in  to  Victoria,  if  she  hap- 
pened to  be  going  there. 

Q. — And  the  "Grace"  was  one  of  these  steam  schooners? 
10   A. — Yes. 

Q. — And  the  "Dolphin"  was  the  other?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — And  I  believe  the  "Thornton"  had  auxiliary?  A. — I 
have  heard  so.      I  never  saw  her. 

Q. — You  say  the  "Dolphin"  and  the  "Grace"  would  collect 
Die  skins  from  the  ports  where  they  Iiappcned  to  be  left  and 
bring  them  down  to  Mctoria?  A. — I  don't  say  that  exactly. 
If  I  remember  right  I  spoke  the  "W.  P.  Sayward,"  and  I  think 
lie  had  verbal  instructions  for  me  to  deliver  my  skins  up  to 
him,  and  I  went  up  to  Dodge's  Cove  and  did  so. 
20  Q. — Do  you  remember  whether  the  "Dolphin"  that  year 
received  any  skins  from  other  vessels  of  the  fleet?  A. — 1  do 
not. 

Q. — Do  you  know  whether  the  "Grace"  received  any  skins 
from  any  other  vessel  that  year?  A. — No,  I  couldn't  say 
tJjat;  I  don't  know. 

Q. — And  the  year  before;  I  suppose  you  have  no  know- 
ledge?     A. — I  have  no  knowledge. 

Q. — Could  j-ou  approximate,  Captain,  the  number  of  skins 
that  you  took  between  the  place  that  you  landed  the  167  skins 
3°  down  here  on  the  coast  and  Behring  Sea?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — What  is  your  best  recollection?  .\. — I  think  about  97; 
il  was  under  100,  a  very  few  under  100. 

Q. — That  would  bring  your  catch  in  the  Sea  down  to  about 
000?  A.— Catch  in  the  Behring  Sea?  The  catch  would  be 
something  over  700. 

Re-direct  examination  by  Mr.  Bodwell: 

Q. — You  don't  know  why  Mr.  Warren  sent  the  "Mary  Tay- 
40  lor"  to  San  Francisco,  as  a  matter  of  fact?  A. — He  never 
lold  me,  that  1  recollect,  just  why. 

Q. — And  you  are  only  giving  an  opinion  without  any  actual 
Knowledge?  NVhen  did  you  leave  Victoria  after  going  out 
with  tlio  "Mary  Taylor,"  when  you  left  altogether?  I  un- 
derstood you  to  say  that  you  left  Victoria  after  you  had  been 
out  on  a  voyage  on  the  "Mary  Taylor?"  A. — No,  I  was 
never  away  only  when  I  was  sealing,  except  one  year  when  I 
was  over  to  Japan. 

(.}. — Yon  spoke  about  Mr.  Munsie's  buying  the  "Afary  Tay- 
50  lor."  .\r  a  matter  of  fact,  you  do  not  know  anything  about 
it.  do  yon?      A. — I  was  over  in  Japan  at  the  time. 

Q. — You  don't  know  whether  he  did  or  not?  A. — I  have 
heard  he  did. 

Q. — You  know  Cotsford,  don't  yon?  A. — Only  by  hear- 
say. 

Q. — Haven't  you  seen  him?  A. — I  think  I  have  seen  him, 
bnt  T  wouldn't  recollect  him  now. 

Q. — You  know  that  he  is  a  halfbreed,  don't  you,  or  part 
Indian?      A. — Yea. 

Q. — Tie  would  be  apt  (o  know  something  about  a  canor. 
wouldn't  he?  .\. — Tf  he  had  been  accustomed  to  be  in  or.e 
I  snpi»ose  he  would. 

Q. — .Vs  a  matter  of  fact,  when  you  speak  of  canoes,  you  an 
Jijx'aking  of  canoes  manned  by  Indians  altogether,  aren't  you. 
and  using  paddles?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — You  have  be<>n  out  sealing  how  nmny  years  altogether? 
A. — I  have  been  sealing  since  1887. 


no 


W 


1 

'i  i 

fit 

■I'  I' 


1,1  Ml  ,  JIM  ll|     IJ  I  "I 


Ul'lll     i 


j 


Q. — And  you  have  gono  to  Ri'liring  Hon  bow  mnny  tlmoB? 
A. — Mix  tiiiu'H. 

Q. — Now  how  (locH  <ln'  (I'iick  of  ,vour  vohhcI  in  Itclirini;  S«'ii 
in  on«>  year  coiuimro  with  the  track  of  your  vohhcI  tlu'  sue- 
cooding  year,  goniTally  spi'akinp?  A. — Wi'll,  do  you  niran 
whew  I  have  saih»d  mostly? 

Q. — What  I  mean  is  (his:  Docs  your  track  in  ono  year  cover 
generally  the  same  ground  as  your  track  the  next  year;  gen- 
erally speaking,  1  mean?  A. — Well,  yes;  the  track  this  year 
10   will  cover  the  year  before. 

Q. — Not  precisely,  but  generally?      A. — Yes. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Tier  Majesty:— You  can 
re-examine  on  this  i)oiut,  Air.  Warren,  if  you  desire. 

Re-cross-examination  by  Mr.  Warren: 

Q. — You  don't  mean  to  say  that  there  are  any  set  courses 
in  Heliring  Sea  on  which  a  vessel  steers  each  year  when  she 
is  sealing,  do  you?  A. — No. 
20  Q. — As  a  matter  of  fact  you  go  at  random  wherever  you 
can  find  seals,  do  you  not?  A. — Not  exactly  at  random. 
For  instance:  If  I  go  into  Iteliring  Kea  next  year.  I  will 
cruise  nround  where  I  saw  them  the  most  this  year;  if  there 
is  none  there  I  will — 

Q. — If  you  happened  to  get  some  seals  last  year  where  yon 
never  got  any  before,  wonid  you  go  there  this  year?  A. — Cer- 
tainly. 

Q. — Then  you  would  go  where  you  thought  you  would  have 
-good  luck;  is  that  it?      A. — Well,  I  would  i)rosi)ect  around 
until  I  found  some  seals,  and  if  I  found  enough  to  warrant  my 
staying,  I  would  stop. 

Q. — Oh,  it  depends  very  much  on  the  judgment  of  the  mas- 
ter of  a  vessel,  does  it  not,  where  he  will  go?  A. — I  suppos*' 
everybody  has  their  own  ideas;  all  the  nuisters. 

Q. — Will  a  shij)  that  has  an  experienced  master  get  better 
results  than  a  ship  which  has  a  master  who  has  never  been 
in  the  Sea  before?  A. — Well,  I  suppoi<e  that  a  ship  with  an 
expei-ienced  nmster — 

40  Ti,,>  Commissioner  i>n  the  jtart  of  the  United  States: — Mr. 
Warren,  are  you  not  rather  departing  from  the  niiitter  which 
my  associate  had  in  mind? 

Mr.  Warren: — I  do  not  know  but  that  last  cjuestion  does  a 
little. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  jiart  of  the  T'nited  States: — My 
asociate  had  in  mind  the  last  matter  opened  up  bv  Mr.  liod- 
well. 

50  Q. — In  all  your  experii'nce  in  (he  Sea.  Captain,  can  you 
mention  a  place  where  von  always  <'Xiiect  lo  find  seals?  \.— 
No,  I  don't  know  as  I  can,  any  particular  jilace. 

Mr.  Hodwell: — I  now  offer  abstract  from  the  book  of  Will- 
iam T.  Uragg,  which  I  mentioned  yesterday.  I  have  given  a 
copy  to  counsel  for  the  United  States,  and  I  i)ropose  to  tile 
the  book  with  the  S«'cretary,  for  the  purpose  of  reference  and 
companson,  if  it  should  be  necessary. 


30. 


60 


The  Commissioner  on  the  i);irt  of  the  United  States; — l>o 
you  desire  to  examine  it  before  it  goes  in,  Mr.  Lansing? 

Mr.  Lansing: — We  would  like  to. 

The  C(»mmissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  Slates: — Yon 
had  better  withdraw  it  then.  Mi'.  Hodwell,  until  to-morrow 
morning.      (Abstract  withdrawn.) 

Mr.  Peters: — 1  wish  to  put  in  evidence  the  oiiginal  declar- 
a(i<tn  made  by  Mr.  Warren,  dated  Novembei'  2Sth,  1SH7.  cross- 


333 


cMiiiiiiu'd  iiIhiiiI  li.v  my  Iciiriiid  fiiciMl,  Mr.  Dickiiistui.  I  tt'ii- 
(h'l-  tilt'  wholi'  docMiiiu'iit.  TliiH  is  in  tlu'  lasi"  (»f  the  "Ciuo- 
Ifiiii." 

^fr.  I>i*  kiiiHoii: — Dtx's  lu.v  Icaiiurl  filtiid  find  mi.v  discri'j)- 
andi'H  lK'fwt'«n  llic  jirinti'd  oni'  and  fliis? 

Mr.  IVfi'i's: — I  onl.v  want  tlif  docinncnt  in.       I  put     tlu' 
(irifjinal  (inc  In  because  it  was  more  eoiivenient.      Tliere  is  ni» 
dis(rej»an«y  between  Ibis  and  (lie  iirinted  one,  tliat  I  luiow 
10  of. 

Mr.  Ditkinson: — I  don't  quite  see  liow  tlie  statement  of  Mr. 
Warren  ean  be  ionii»etent. 

Tlie  Conuiiissioner  on  tlie  part  of  tlie  United  States: — 
Wliat  is  your  purpose? 

Mr.  IVters: — HeeauK'    my  learned    friend    erossexamined 
.Mr.  Warren  uiK)n  a  <"ertain  ])ara}>;rapli  of  this  document,  try- 
ing! to  l)rinK  out,  as  I  understood  liini,  tliat  tliere  was  some 
20  dill'erence  iM'tween  tlie  statement  that  lie  had  made  in  this 
(leclaiation  and  the  statement  that  be  made  here. 

The  ( '(miniissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — Are 
there  any  parts  of  that  paper  which  so  (pnilify? 

Mr.  I'eters: — The  document,  taken  as  a  wholi;,  shows  that 
(he  statement  made  by  Mr.  Warren  upon  its  face  is  a  state- 
ment made  from  certain  information  he  had  rtceived  from 
oilier  parties,  and  (hat  iiiforiiiation  is  subslaniially  correct; 
but  I  wish  to  put  it  in  for  the  jturpose  of  showing  that  he  was 
3°  making  a  statt'inent  on  its  face  based  on  information  received 
from  other  parties. 

The  ronimissioner  on  tlu'  jiart  of  the  T'nited  States: — Can- 
not you  call  attention  to  those  portions  to  show  tliat  fact? 

Mr.  I'eters: — I  submit  that  my  learned  friend  havihjj  cross- 
examined  in  detail  as  to  this  document,  leaves  it  open  to  us 
to  put  the  whole  document  in. 

-Mr.  Dickinson: — That  is  not  the  rule,  your  Honour.  Aji- 
-^°  l>lyinjj;  the  rule,  they  caiiiiot  in  that  way  tjet  in  evidence  in 
cliicf  which  has  no  pertinency  to  the  cross-examination;  and, 
in  order  to  }jet  in  any  jiarts  of  it  to  answer  to  the  cross-ex- 
amination, they  must  re-e:camine  the  witness  (m  the  stand, 
and  call  his  attention  to  t'ae  miitTer  that  modifies  it. 

The  ("ommissioner  on  the  part     of     Her     Majesty; — That 

Kcenis  to  me  to  be  tic-  lefjii'ar  course,  to  jiass  it  throu}?h  the 

witness'  mind  in  reexamination;  if  anything  has  been  omit- 

t(d  which  you  think  ou};ht  to  have  been  brou{;lit  out  as  affeci- 

ijO  iiifj  the  answers  that  were  jjiven. 

Mr.  IVters: — This  document  would  be  evidence  in  this  mut- 
ter on  another  ground — evidence  as  showint;  tlu*  claim  that 
was  put  in  originally  to  the  Tuitt  d  States  tJovernnient  upen 
this  matter.  It  would  be  evi<lence  upon  that  p;round  to  show 
what  claim  was  made,  what  it  was  bas«'d  (m. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — That  would  be  a  novel  proposition. 

Mr.  I'eters: — 1  do  not  say  that  it  is  to  be  taken  for  urauted 
that  every  statement  in  there  is  correct.  Sujiposinfj  we 
started  this  cast-  with  the  fact  that  we  are  now  attemjitins 
to  prove  our  case  f(.v  the  first  time.  Onulit  not  reference  to 
be  made  as  to  where  the  claim  was  put  in  before,  when  put 
in  and  how  put  in?  Surely  those  are  all  facts  relevant  to 
this  matter.  It  may  not  be  that  every  statement  :ii  this 
document  is  to  be  taken  as  correct,  but  it  is  a  fact  in  the  <ase 
that  this  document  was  jmt  in  by  (Sreat  liritain  to  the  fjov- 
( rnnient  of  the  rnited  Slates  as  the  claim  it  put  iocwavd, 


Go 


im\ 


!;[' 


i-mu 


Hi  !  (i 


ii'M' 


MiMu-i 


lO 


20 


334 

• 

M,v  li'iiriii'd  ft'ifiid  croHH-i'xaiiii'U'd  ii]hiii  that,  iiiid  tlii-  fact  that 
thcro  wi'i-e  certain  (|iialif,viiig  partH  was  broii(r|it  to  the  uttt-ii- 
tion  of  the  Court  and  to  liiu  att«Mitioii.  I  Hay  the  wli(»k'  dor- 
iimi'iit,  from  b'.'tjiniiing  to  end,  (iiialifit's  the  declaration  that 
he  makea  a  positive  Htatenieiit  as  to  tliese  inattei-H. 

Mr.  IMcldiiaoii: — It  goon  in  as  a  part  of  tlieir  case,  may  It 
]>leaHe  .vour  lIonourH,  and  we  have  to  meet  its  statements. 
With  all  dne  deference  to  my  learned  friend,  it  is  an  entirely 
novel  proposition  that  a  man  contemplating  a  law  suit  may 
send  his  claim  to  the  party  whom  lie  se»']<8  to  diarge,  and 
then,  when  the  case  comes  on  for  hearing  at  nisi  prius — if 
we  deduce  our  rules  from  analogy  to  nisi  prius — put  in  that 
claim  that  he  has  made  up  as  evidence.  We  do  not  so  un- 
derstand the  rule.  W«'  cross  examined  as  to  ]>nragraph  8, 
and  called  his  attention  to  ]mragraph  8,  which  is  independent, 
stands  by  itself,  and  is  a  reference  to  a  certain  sdiedtile  in 
which  he  states  tliat  the  statement  is  made  up  from  tisheries 
reports,  but  adds  to  that  that  the  facts  stated  in  those  reports 
are  true  of  his  own  Ivnowledge,  substantially.  Vpon  tluit 
point  I  cross-examined  liim;  and  if  my  learned  friend  finds 
anything  that  modifies  paragraph  8  from  beginning  to  end, 
I  would  like  him  to  call  our  attention  to  it.  Certain  it  is 
that  he  cannot  make  it  a  part  of  his  case  by  putting  in  a 
statement  made  by  the  owner,  or  in  behalf  of  the  owner,  by 
the  owner's  agent. 

Mr.  Peters: — That  is  just  the  very  point.  I  say  that  tliis 
whole  document  from  beginning  to  end  does  modify  the  state- 
ment, the  second  clause  of  which  sliows  that  he  was  stating 
infornmtion  that  lie  liad  received  from  souie  other  i)erson, 
which  information,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  Imd  been  previously 
put  in  in  the  form  of  a  declaration. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — Has  he 
not  already  stated  on  the  stand  tliat  he  was  an  agent  of  dif- 
ferent parties,  and  that  lie  collected  his  information  from  a 
number  of  sources? 

Mr.  Teters: — He  has  so  stated,  but  my  learned  friend  takes 
^o   paragraph  8 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Paragraph  7. 

Mr.  J'eters: — Very  well,  7,  and  alleges  now  that  that  is 
subst-.tntially  something  tliat  lie  knows  of  liis  own  knowledge. 
At  that  time,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  we  could  have  read  \h>: 
whole  of  it.  The  matter  was  stated  tliat  the  whole  declaration 
ration  was  put  l)efore  the  Oommismoncrs,  and  Mr.  Dickinson 
at  this  moment  states  that  that  declar:itioii  is  a  statement  of 
Mr.  Warren's,  on  liis  own  information,  and  which  he  believes 
50  to  be  absolutely  correct.  I  will  not,  however,  press  the  mat- 
ter upon  the  Commissioners. 


30 


60 


Neal  Moss  was  called  as  a  witness  on  the  part  of  (Jreat 
Britain  and  duiy  sworn. 

Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Bod  well: 

Q. — You  are  a  master  mariner,  Mr.  Moss?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — And  live  in  Victoria?      A. — •Yes. 

Q. — How  long  have  you  been  sealing?  A. — Began  about 
]871,  sir. 

Q. — What  were  you  doing  in  tlie  year  18S(i?  A. — 1  was 
aboard  the  schocmer  "Favourite." 

Q. — Wliero  did  you  join  tlw  Favourite?"  A. — In  a  place 
on  the  west  coast  called  Wkidegate, 


as 

(y — Wlmt  luul  ^voii  luH'ii  doliis;  Itvlore  tlm(?  A. — MiiHti-r 
(III  llu'  "Kate." 

(2. — And  ^011  ciiaiigt'd  to  tlio  "Favouriti'"  for  what  rcasou? 
A. — IJiM-aiiHt'  I  coiild  get  no  crow  for  the  'Kuti'." 

(i.-Did  the  -Kate"  make  her  voyage  to  liehring  Heu  that 
vear?      A. — Xo,  sir. 

(2.— Did  .vou  >;o  to  Uehring  Wea?  A. — Yes,  air,  I  went  to 
Mcliriiig  Sea. 

(l—nn  the  "Favoinite?"      A.— On  the  "Favourite." 
10      t^.— In  what  (•ai»aci(,v  did  ,vou  go?      A. — I  went  aa  a  kind 
(if  iiiiiiter. 

ti. — You  mean  you  did  not  belong  reguhu-ly  to  the  crew? 
A— Xo,  sir. 

il. — Were  you  on  her  all  the  time  that  she  was  in  Behriug 
Sea?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Do  you  know  when  she  entered  the  Sea?  A. — About 
tlic  (ith  or  7th  of  July.      1  don't  remember  th€>  date, 

Q. — Did  you  have  at  any  time  any  memoranda  relating  to 
(liites  of  which  vou  will  speak  in  your  evidence.      A. — Y'es,  I 
-0    liiid  them  right'along  to  1S!»1. 

»i. — What  hajiitened  then?  A. — I  had  a  schooner  by  the 
iiiiiiic  of  the  "Ariel"  which  got  ashore,  and  I  lost  all  uiy 
liajL-rs. 

(i.-  That  was  in  1W)1?      A.— 18!H. 

Q. — You  say  that  you  remember  about  the  time  that  the 
Favourite"  entered  the  Sea?      A. — Yes,  about  the  »ith  or 
71h  (if  .Inly. 

i}. — How  hmg  did  you  stay  there?      A. — As  near  as  I  re- 
iiuiiibcr,  to  the  15tli  of  August. 
^        ii. — Did  the  "Favourite"  have  boats  or  canoes?      A. — Can- 
oes. 

t). — How  many?       A. — Ten  and  one  stern  boat. 

ii. — And  what  kind  of  a  crew?      A. — Indians. 

(i— How  long  did  you  stay  in  the  Sea?  A. — As  near  us  I 
rcinember,  until  the  15th  of  August. 

(i. — How  nianv  seals  did  vou  get?  A. — Well,  we  had  a 
pretty  good  cat('h;  about  2!til(),  I  think 

(i. — Were  aou  out  in  the  year  1.MX7?      A. — Yes,  sir. 
4°      (i. — On  what  schooner  did  you  go  out  in  the  year  1887? 
A. — The  schooner  "Kate." 

Q. — In  what  capacity?    A. — Master. 

(i. — Did  you  seal  in  Hehring  Sea?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

ii. — And  on  the  coast?  A. — No;  didn't  seal  on  the  coast? 
I  sci'.led  in  the  sj)ring  on  the  coast. 

(i.— What  time  did  you  enter  the  Sea  In  1887?  A.— I  think 
somewhere  about  the  Kttli  of  12tli  of  July. 

il — When  did  you  leave?      A. — The  latter  part  of  August. 

(i. — How  many  canoes  did  you  have?      A. — Ten. 
50      Q. — Indian  hunters?      A. — Indian  hunters  and  two  boats, 
one  stern  boat,  and  the  other  a  regular  hunter. 

(J. — How  many  seals  did  you  get?  A. — About  1800;  some- 
wlicre  around  1800. 

Q. — What  is  your  total  catch,  both  the  spring  catch  and  the 
lichiiiig  Sea  catch?      A.— About  2:500. 

(i- — Over  what  ground  did  vou  work  in  1887?  A. — In 
1S87? 

(i- — I  mean  generally;  <"an  you  tell  by  looking  at  the  chart? 
A.— I  had  a  navigator  with  me. 
'  "^       ^i. — Had  yon  any  idea  youself?  A.  (Examining  chart) — Y'es, 
lifiiit  ahmg  h(M'e.  (Indicating.) 

(i- — Can  you  give  that  by  latitude  and  longitude?  A. — 
yes. 

Q.— Do  so,  theii?      A. — lOit.JtO  and  5(!  and  some  15  minutes. 

Q. — Did  you  stay  in  one  place  all  the  time?      A. — No,  sir. 

•i-— Which  way  did  you  go  from  there?      A. — South. 

<i.— Towards  what  point?      .V.— Towards  OuiialusUa, 


i;:li 


i':  ■% 


1)1. : 


iiih 


It 


ffi^W^Wifi^Bii^ 


ii. — TIh'ii  tlitl  .von  \n>  iinv  oMmt  wax?  A. — Tin-  hint  I 
hcalfd  wat*  olT  Oiiiinlaskn,  nlioiit  20  iiiih-H  (ilY  OnnalaHka. 

(2. — Hav«'  von  nii.v  rofolh'ction  n«>w  tiH  to  wlicrt'  ,v«»u  wt-rc  iu 
IHHii  jjfiu'rall.v;  I  mean  mm  to  .voiir  locaHty  in  tin-  hch?  A. — 
Hoiii('wlu>i'<>H  around  tlio  saino  |ila«'i>.  That  waH  Captain 
Mt'litan'M  phut'. 

<i. — Have  you  gone  into  tlic  Hvu  in  later  v«'arH?      A. — Yen, 

Hif. 

Q. — How  many  tinwH?  A. — Hix  times  altogetlier. 
10       ^i- — In  wlwt  lapaeity  genei-aily?  A. — Tliree  times  as  mas- 
ter. 

Q. — Now,  generally,  where  did  you  go  in  the  Hea?  A. — I  go 
the  same  place  as  I  say  luM-e,  .^>(t  north  and  !(>!>  west. 

(J. — (Generally,  that  Is  al»ont  tlie  point  yon  make  for?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Have  yon  made  a  eatch  generally?  A. — Oenerally 
nnide  good  catehes. 

(i. — Now,  in  1KK7  do  yon  r«>menil)er  any  partieular  days,  or 
any  particular  events  that  lnip|H>ned  with  reference  to  the 
20  catch?      A. — I  had  one  or  two  good  days;  one  day  I  had  1I5(», 
in  August. 

(i.— In  1887?      A.— In  1887. 

(i. — Do  y<»u  remembei  nny  otlier  big  day  .  A. — Yes,  I  had 
a  big  day  off  Ounalaska,  the  latter  part  of  August. 

Q. — How  large  a  carch  did  yon  make  tliat  day?      A. — l.'iO. 

(i. — Do  yon  remember  what  was  the  biggest  dav  you  had  iu 
188(J?      A.— No,  sir,  I  don't  remember  that. 


30 


Mi'tr 


40 


50 


60 


Cross-Rxaniination  by  Mr.  Warren. 

(i. — I  understand,  Mr.  Moss,  tlnit  y<»u  were  on  the  "Kate" 
until  you  joined  tlie  "Favourite"  in  188«?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  you  joined  the  "Favourite"  over  on  tlie  west 
coast?      A. — Yes. 

(I. — At  Mr.  Spring's  trading  station?  A.-  Ti  iJing  sta- 
tion, yes,  sir. 

Q. — Do  Mr.  Spnng  and  Captain  McLean  have  a  trading  sta- 
tion over  there?      A. — Yes.  sir,  in  them  days  they  did. 
ii. — The  "Kate"  was  laid  up  tiuit  year?     A. — Yes. 
ij. — Over  on  the  west  coast,  or  was  she  biouglit    back    to 
Victoria?      A. — <"aptain  Spring  brought  lit  r    back    to     Vic- 
toria. 

Q. — Now,  is  it  not  a  fact  tliat  she  was  laid  up  in  1880,  be- 
cause she  had  not  made  nuuiey  the  year  before  sealing?  A. — 
Couldn't  get  a  crew  for  her. 

Q. — Could  you  not  get  a  crew  in  Victoria?  A. — Didn't  try, 
sir. 

Q. — Could  you  get  a  crew  on  the  west  coast?  A. — No. 
Q. — After  he  brought  her  back  she    didn't    do    anything? 
A. — She  was  around  trjuling  on  the  coast. 

Q. — She  didn't  go  out  sealing  at  all?  A. — Not  in  the  sum- 
mer, no. 

g.— Not  in  the  f..;i?      A.— Or  in  the  fall  either, 
Q.— That  wasin  lS8(i,  was  it?      A.— In  "80. 
(i. — I  suppose  she  could  have  been  <harte''<'d  by  people  here 
if  there  had  been  a  demand  foi'  sealins;  vessels,  couldn't  she? 
A. — I  don't  know,  sir. 

Q. — Could  she?      A. — I  don't  know  as  she  could. 
Q. — She  was  not  very  busy,  was  she,  during  that  season? 
A. — Had  to  have  a  vessel  to  attend  to  the  stations. 

Q. — What  vessel  would  have  attended  to  them  if  the  Kate 
had  gone  out  sealiu;;?  A. — They  would  have  chartered  a 
steamer  to  attend  to  it. 

Q.— Wliat  was  the  tt)nnage  of  the  "Kate?"  A.— She  was 
4!)  tons  before  she  was  lengthened,  and  then  slu>  was  about 
60  tons, 


iS7 

(2.— Wlu'ii  wiiH  hIk  It'ii^Mliciit'd?  A.— A  loiiK  tiiiif  j  go, 
ami  till'  n'KiHici'  wtiM  iu'v*t  allcri'd;  the  huiik*  41)  tuu  wiih  ou 
Ikt. 

Q.— !U'for«>  |M.S(J  Of  after?  A— Vch,  a  long  linit>  In-fore 
IMHt!, 

(i.— Hlie  WHH  NoM  ill  IMSJ,  an  InteroKt  in  liei-,  Ih  not  that  h«? 
i(ju*'Htion  witlMlrawii.) 

(). — What  time  ilhl  .you  Join  the  "Favourite"  on  the  weHt 
(oiiMt?      A. — Ahoiil  June. 
10       (2. — Who   war  the  <a|»tain  of  the  "Favourite"  that  year? 
A. — Captain  Alexander  MeLeaii. 

(i. — IHd  you  i;o  direct  to  Itehrin^  Mea?       A. — YeH. 

(i. — Seal  between?  A.— No,  we  didn't  Heal  between  there 
and  Iti 'iirinK  Sea. 

(>. — IHd  you  lower  your  lioatN  for  Kealiii);?       A. — No,  sir. 

Q.— You  think  you  ent.'r«-d  the  Sea  about  the  (ith  or  7tli 
(»f  .Inly?      A. — Soinewlu're  around  there.  yeH. 

Q. — And  remained  in  the  Sea  until  what  time?      A. — The 
l.'>tli  of  AuftuHt,  iiH  near  an  I  ean  remember. 
20       (>.— Are  you  not  niistaken  about  that?     A. — I  don't  think 
I  am  miHtaken  about  it. 

Q.— Was  it  not  nearer  the  30tli?  A.— No,  sir;  not  if  I 
remember. 

(J. — You  do  not  elaini  to  be  imsitive  about  that  date,  do 
you'      A. — I  ain't  positive. 

Q. — There  Ik  a  claim  here  about  the  Favourite,  Ih  there  not, 
before  this  Commission?      A. — I  don't  know.  sir. 

Q. — Was  there  a  lop  book  kept  of  the  "Favourite"  that 
year?      A.— I  think  so. 
o£       Q.-r>id  you  see  It?      A.— See  the  catcli? 

(.). — The  lop  book?  A. — No,  I  didn't  see  it;  I  had  nothing 
to  do  with  thi't. 

Q. — Do  you  know  what  date  the  "Favourite"  was  warned 
out?      A.— No,  T  fdiT'ct  the  date. 

Q. — Did  yon  cvor  '<now  y<Mi  were  warned  out,  so  lonu  as 
you  were  aboard  the  boat?  A. — I  saw  the  cutter  sjteakinp 
to  the  captain. 

Q. — You  did  not  know  what  the  cutter  said,  did  j'ou?     A. 
—No. 
''^       Q. — You  were  never  t«dd  (m  the  boat  that  you  wep'  warned 
out.  were  yon?      A. — Y«'S. 

Mv.  Teters: — This  refers  t')  the  "F.-ivourito's"  ease,  this  ex- 
amination? 

Air.  Warren: — lie  fixes  the  date  of  leaving  the  sea  as  the 
l.jth  of  Anjtust.  and  1  suppose  afterward  we  mipht  transfer 
(liis  testimony. 

Q. — Did  you  not  take  seals  in  that  year  after  the  I5th  of 
50   Aujjust?     A. — I  don't  remember. 

(i. — You  would  not  say  that  you  did  not,  would  you?  A. 
— I  couldn't  remember  tluit. 

(i. — Merely  because  you  were  wariu'd  out.  you  do  not  claim 
Dial  yon  left  the  Sea  immediately,  do  yon?  A.— No,  we  did 
not. 

(i.— You  sav  von  carri«'d  ten  canoes  and  one  boat  that  year? 
A.— Yes. 

(i.— That  was  a  stern  boat?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i. — How  many  Indians  did  you  hav*'  in  each  canoe?  A. — 
10  Twenty  Indians;  two  in  each  canoe. 

(i— And  who  hunted  in  the  stern  boat?      A  —I  did. 

Q. — How  many  men  did  you  have  in  with  you?  A. — Had 
two  hunt«'rs  belonfrinp  to  the  schooner. 

(i.— And  were  the  Indians  armed  with  pans  or  sjiears,  or 
both?      A. — They  had  spears  and  pnns  both. 

Q.— And  did  both  the  Indians  in  each  of  the  boats  shoot? 
A.— They  changed  about.      Sometimes  one  steered  and  the 


.'i- 


Wl 


53» 


MlMi 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


otht'i-  hunted;  gcuenilly  two  I'AinTieiicod  Imntei-s  in  a  lanoi'; 
tJu'y  would  take  turn  about. 

Q. — You  spoke  about  (Captain  McLean's  pbiee.  Captain 
AleLean  was  one  of  the  most  experienced  seal  hunters  in  lieh- 
ling  8ea  in  those  years,  was  he  not?  A. — He  was  supposed 
to  be. 

(J. — He  had  that  rei)utation.  did  he  not?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — And  the  catch  of  a  vessel  would  depend  soniewluit  on 
the  skill  and  knowled>i;e  of  the  master,  would  it  not?  A. — 
Yes.  I  guess,  a  little;  and  something  about  the  vessel  too. 
The  ca]>tain  liad  good  knowledge  about  seals. 

(i. — That  would  nuike  a  difference  in  the  results,  wouldn't 
it?  A. — I  don't  know;  it  all  depends  on  how  we  come  across 
tlieni.  New  men  can  go  in  there  and  come  across  seals  as 
well  as  men  of  exju'rience. 

Q. — la  not  a  man  who  knows  something  about  their  habits 
better  able  to  judge  where  to  find  them?      A.— I  don't  know. 

Q. — And  wlien  you  say  that  tx  man  has  the  reputation  of 
being  one  of  the  best  captains  in  the  business  wliat  do  y<m 
mean?  A. — I  mean  (\iptain  McLean  was  a  rustler,  and  he 
was  always  on  the  go. 

Q. — You  ssiy  yon  t(H)k  2900  skins  that  year?  A. — As  near 
as  I  can  remembei-. 

Q. — Does  that  include  the  r)00  you  took  from  the  "On- 
ward"?     A. — I  don't  know. 

(J. — Did  you  take  any  from  the  "Onward"  in  the  Sea  that 
year?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — How  many?  A. — I  don't  remember  how  many  tliere 
was. 

Q. — \YeIl,  come  now.  recollect?  A. — I  couldn't  remember. 

(i. — About  how  nniny?      A. — I  did  not  count  them. 

(J. — Did  you  see  Captain  McLean  take  some  off  the  "On- 
ward" before  tlie  "Onward"  was  seized?  A. — I  see  the  "On- 
ward" putting  some  skin'  aboard. 

ii. — Were  they  included  in  your  12000?      A. — 1  don't  know. 

ij. — You  don't  know  that  they  were  not,  do  you?      A. — No. 

ii. — What  day  did  you  take  tliose  skins  off  the  "Onward?" 
A. — I  d(m't  remember  tlie  dale. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  the  date  that  the  "Onward"  was 
seized?  A. — 1  tliink  she  was  seized  on  the  2nd  or  IJrd  of  Au- 
gust. 

Q. — If  she  Wits  seized  on  the  2iid  of  .Viigust,  about  what 
time  witli  reference  to  tliat  seizure  was  it  tliat  you  took  the 
skins  off  lier?      A. — Altout  two  days  Itefore. 

ii. — Now  give  us  tlie  liest  iccollection  of  the  number  of 
skins  you  took  olf  tlie  "Onward"?  A. — I  don't  remember, 
sir. 

Q. — Whatever  you  took  oft\  w(>re  they  included  in  tin'  2000? 
A. — I  think  they  was.  1  ain't  sure. 

(i. — Then  you  do  not  know  how  many  skins  yon  aitnally 
took  on  your  boats  up  there  that  year,  do  von?  .V. — We  had 
2000  on  board. 

i}. — Then  that  must  have  incliuh  d  those  you  took  from  the 
"Onward"?      .\. — Must  have  bei'u. 

(i.— We  have  that  fixed  that  the  2000  included  those  you 
took  from  the  "Onward."  Is  that  right?  A. — I  think  so, 
as  near  as  I  can  reiiieiiiber. 

<i. — The  "Onward"  and  "Favourilt'"  weie  owned  by  the 
same  jtarfies?      .\. — Yes. 

(i. — .\iid  tliev  transferred  flieii'  skins  (Hit  in  the  Sea?  .\. — 
Yes. 

'2. — How  far  was  Mr.  Spiiiig's  tiading  post  from  Mr.  Mun- 
sie's  trading  post ?      .\. —  I  guess  about  10  miles. 

ti. — Were  yon  at  Mr.  Spring's  trading  post  in  lH8t(?  A, — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q— What  lime  of  the  year?  .\.— In  ISMtt.  I  was  there  in 
June  until  1  wi  ill  away  with  the  "Favourile," 


339 

il. — Wvvv  you   (lu'i)'  htfoic  Uiat   liiin"?       A. — Vi'h,  I   was 
swiliiiK  *>"♦  of  then'  in  tlu>  6i|»riii^;. 

{^. — When  did  yo\i  ciHiiUK'iK't'  Hoaliiin  out     of  tluTe  in  tin; 
Hpiiii};?      A. — Mairl),  !  think,  that  .year. 

H. — Wert'  you  tlicn'  in  Ftlunary?  A. — I  niif^ht  liavo  bcfn 
llu'iv.      I  ain't  poHitivo. 

Q.— Well,  think  ahou(  it?  A.— I  had  hcon  there  in  Febru- 
iiry  some  years,  but  I  don't  know  about  sealing. 

<2. — Did  yon  see  (lie  "<"arolena"  down  there     that     year? 
10   A. — I  don't  reinenibcr  seeinji  her  lliat  year  on  the  eoast. 

Q.— Do  yon  renreniber  Mr.  Ahinsie  had  a  tradinfj  post  there 
in  1SS(5?      A. — Yes,  I  knew  he  had  some  post  there. 

Q. — When  was  that  tradinfi  post  built?  A. — I  Uiink  the 
same  year'  lSS(i. 

t^. — Early  in  the  year?      A. — Kind  of  teniixtrary  jxtst;  he 

wasn't  there  all  the  time;  only  be  nj>  for  the  season.  I  think. 

ti. — He  was  there  some  time  in  the  early  part  of  1SK(>,  was 

lie  not,  he  or  somebody  rejiresentin};     him?       A. — Yes.     sir, 

(here  was  somebody  thei-e  in  the  seaiinji;  season. 

20      Q. — Who  did  you  see  down  thert>  representini,'  Mr.  Munsie 

in  IHSO?      A. — 1  don't  remember  who  was  tliere  that  year. 

Q.— Was  there  anybody  there  represent ir.j^  him?  A. — Yes, 

I  believe  there  was  somebody  looking  after  tlie  store;  I  didn't 

call  in;  all  I  know  they  Irad  a  station. 

(J. — Were  yoti  not  around  near  his  store?  A. — Our  sta- 
tion is  about  ten  miles  from  there. 

(.i. — That  does  not  answer  the  question.  I  asked  yon  if 
you  were  around  his  store?      A. — \o,  sir. 

(.1 — Did  Mr.  Munsie  send  any  supjdies  down  theiH>  in  l><H(i? 
SO   A.— 1  l)elit>ve  so,  I  didn't  see  it. 

(i. — They  had  some  there,  did  they  not?  A. — Yes,  sir, 
(here  was  some  thei'e. 

ii. — You  knew  thev  were  tradinj;  w!th  the  Indians?  A. — 
Yes. 

(i. — .\nd  that  they  were  j!;ivinj;;  supplies  out  for  what  they 
received  from  the  Indiiuis?  .\. — Yes,  sir,  the  Indians  were 
tradinji  there. 

Q. — And  Mr.  Sjjrin};  (houffht  that  that  post  was  in  com- 
IH'tition  with  his,  did  he  not?      A. — I  dmi't    know    anythin}? 
40  about  that. 

Q. — There  was  some  talk  about  it.  and  that  is  the  way  you 
luipiM'ii  to  remember,  is  it  not?  A. — I  don't  rememb«'r  the 
talk  alxnit  that. 

Q. — What  otln'r  boats  did  Mr.  Munsie  have  besides  the 
"Cai'olena"  in  IS^H?  A. — I  don't  remember,  sir,  what  boat 
he  had. 

(i. — Do  you  remember  that  the  "Carolena"  was  in  there  in 
\SX{\'!      A. — I  remember  the  "Cai'olena." 

(i. — Do  you  rememlK'r  that  she  was  at  that  trading  p«)8t  in 
Issi;?      A. — Yes,  I  remember  she  was  there. 

Q. — AVhat  time  of  the  year  was  she  in  there?  A. — Oh,  I 
don't  remember  what  time  of  (he  year  she  was  (here. 

Q. — Was  it  before  vou  went  awav  on  the  "Savward?"  A. 
—Yes 

il — How  hmj,'  bef)re?  A. — I  couldn't  tell.  About  a 
iiKMidi  or  .so.       in  the  sjirintJ  siie  was  otf  and  on  there. 

Q. — In  the  eariy  sprinji?      A. — I     don't     remendK>r    what 
1  ime. 
(',0       Q- — ^Yas  it  in   May  or  before  May?      .V.— -Mefore  ^lay,  I 
fllleNs, 

Q. — .\nd  it  was  not  when  she  left  and  went  u|)  to  fSehriii!; 
Sea  on  her  trip  that  you  speak  of?  .V.— She  called  in  there 
before  she  went  to  HehrinK'  Sea. 

Q. — .\nd  then  went  ri^jht  aloni;  u|»  to  Hehriuf;  Sea?  .\. — 
I  ilon't  rememb'-r  whether  she  went  riftht  ahniK  <n-  went  to 
N'ictoria  ttrst. 

<i.— The  tirst  time  she  was  there  she  went  back  to  VIetoria? 
A.— Yes,  I  believe  she  did. 


i;o 


IHIvP, 


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\m 


III 

'I 


.,•0:11 


nil!!!! 


liill 

1  ■  I  ■ 


mm 


'^iMit'l 


lo 


30 


43 


SO 


60 


340 

Q. — Tlu'U  the  "CiiroU'ua"  loft  ^'il•to^i!l  iu  the  I'lu-ly  jmrt  of 
1H8G  and  went  out  to  this  trading  pout  and  came  back;  is  tliat 
so?      A. — As  near  as  I  remember,  yes. 

Q. — And  tlien  slie  called  in  again  when  she  left  liere  in 
May  on  her  voyage  to  Reliring  Sea;  is  that  so?  A. — I  don't 
remember  that  she  did.  Of  course  slie  had  white  hunters 
after  that.      Whether  she  did  or  not  I  don't  remember. 

Q. — What  was  tlie  "('arol(>na"  doing  up  there  when  she 
was  up  there  in  18SG?    A. — In  Behring  Hea? 

Q. — No,  there  at  the  trading  jjost?  A. — I  think  she  was 
sealing  that  year  in  the  spring. 

(J. — Where  was  she  staling?      A. — On  the  coast  here. 

Q. — Was  she  buying  skins  of  the  Indians?  A. — Well,  I 
guess  he  did  that  too. 

Q. — And  gave  them  supplies  for  them?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Do  you  know  of  your  own  knowledge?  A. — Well,  that 
is  the  way  they  usualy  do — supplies  and  money. 

Q. — tTust  tell  me  whether  you  know  of  your  own  knowledge 
whether  the  "Carolena"  was  purchasing  skins  from  the  In- 
dians and  giving  them  supplies  in  trade  for  them?  A. — They 
were  buying  skins,  either  with  money  or  with  supplies. 

Q. — And  you  know  that  yotirself?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Were  vou  on  board  the  "Carolena"  when  she  was  in 
there?      A.— No. 

Q.— What  boat  were  you  on?      A.— On  the  "Kate." 

Q. — And  went  trading  in  there?  A. — No,  sir,  I  was  not 
trading  in  ther(>;  I  was  sealing. 

(J. — You  were  trading  at  Mr.  Spring's  place,  were  you  not? 
A. — I  was  not  trading. 

Q. — At  Mr  Spring's  post?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — WImt  were  you  doing  in  there?  A. — I  was  laying 
there  in  the  schooner,  getting  a  crew. 

li.— How  far  did  the  "Kate"  lie  from  the  "Carolena?"  A.— 
Ten  miles  between  the  stations. 

Q.— Could  you  see  the  "Carolena?"      A.— No. 

li. — Now,  witness,  wlien  (ou  look  the  stand  vou  wen*  asked 
about  the  catch  of  the  "Favourite"  in  I88«i?    "  A.— Yes. 

Q. — And  you  said  2,1)(M)  to  the  Commissioners,  did  you?  A. 
—Yes.  about  2.!t()(». 

Q. — Did  you  know  when  you  stated  that  that  included  a 
considerable  nmnber  of  skins  that  you  took  from  off  the  "On- 
ward?" A. — Well,  I  don't  know  if  them  skins  go  iiito  the 
2,!t(H). 

Q. — Did  not  you  tell  me  a  little  while  ago  that  you  did 
know?      A. — I  think  she  had  over  .'UKIO  including  tliem. 

Q. — You  want  to  change  your  mind  about  that  now,  do 
you?  .lust  state  whether  it  is  your  opinion  that  that  2,000 
included  the  skins  off  the  "Onward"  or  not?  A.— I  don't 
think  it  did. 

Q. — I  believe  you  slated  that  the  tonnage  of  the  "Kate" 
was  40  odd  tons;  is  that  right?  A. — Sh(>  was  40  on  the  regis- 
<«'r.  but  she  was  00  tons.  She  was  40  before  she  was  length- 
ened, and  that  was  never  changed  on  the  register.  She  was 
somewhere  about  00  tons. 

Q.— Were  you  the  nmster  of  her  in   IS87?      A.— Yes. 

(i. — .\nd  you  had  ten  ciiiioes  and  two  boats?  One  of  those 
was  a  st<'rii  boat?     A. — One  was  a  stern  boat. 

ii. — Was  that  lioat  used  for  sealing  purposes  all  tlie  time? 
A. — Hunting;  vcs,  sir. 

ii. — Thai  is,  wlien  the  canoes  were  used?  A. — Ten  canoes 
and  one  Itoat  sealing  every  day. 

Q. — I  asked  you  if  the  boat  was  used  whenever  the  canoes 
weic  used  for  hunting?       .\. — Yes.  it  was. 

Q. — So  tliat  \ou  had  eleven  boats  out  all  the  tinu'?  A. — 
All  boats  all  the  time. 

Q — You  went  in  thcie  about  the  10th  of  .luly?  .\. — Some 
wiiere  about  the  first  part  of  .luly,  1  think  tlu'  llth. 


341 

Q. — And  you  loft  wlmt  date  in  AugiiH*?  A. — Tho  latter 
part  of  August. 

Q. — Fix  tlic  da(«'  in  An.nnst,  1SS7,  wlicn  yon  left?  A.— 
Sonn'wluTe  about  tlie  20tli  or  24th  or  iiStli;  Honicwln'ro  around 
tht'i-e. 

Q.— Is  it  nearer  the  2()tli  than  the  30th?  A.— About  the 
iTitli,  1  think. 

(i. — Was  the  Healing  season  over  when  j'ou  left?      A. — No, 
I  don't  think  it  was. 
10       Q. — Why  did  you  leave?      A. — lieoause  I  saw  some  sohoon- 
«  rs  petting  seiz)  d. 

Q. — What  sehooner  did  you  see  getting  seized?  A. — The 
"Alfred  Adams." 

(i.— What  date  did  you  see  tlie  "Alfred  Adams"  getting 
jicized?     A. — I  dim't  remember  the  date,  sir. 

Q. — Did  vou  leave  right  after  vou  saw  her  being  seized? 
A.— Xo. 

Q. — How  many  days  after?  A. — Well,  it  must  have  been  a 
week  or  more  after  that. 
20       Q.— Y(ni  hft  about  a  we«'k  after  the  "Alfred  Adams"  was 
seized?      A. — Somewhere  around  there,  yes. 

Q. — Was  it  two  weeks  after?  A. — Well,  I  don't  remem- 
ber. 

(i. — If  she  was  seized  on  the  10th  of  August,  you  think  yon 
left  about  ten  days  after  that?  A. — Yes,  sir,  somewhere 
around  there. 

Q. — Did  vou  see  the  litth'  "Triumph"  in  the  sea  that  vear 
18S7?       A.— Whieh  one? 

Q.— The  little  "Triumph"?      A.— \o. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  Fnited  States: — Is 
that  the  name  of  the  vessel,  Mr.  Warren? 

Mr.  Warren: — Theie  are  two  "Triumphs."  and  to  distin- 
guish them  they  eall  one  the  litth'  "Triumph." 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  L'nited  States: — It  Is 
not  a  imrt  of  her  name. 

Mr.  \\'arren: — Xo,  your  Honour. 

Q. — Your  eatch  in  the  vear  1887  was  how  manv?  A. — About 
'^     IHOO  or  so. 

<i. — Those  were  all  taken  in  the  Sea  were  they?      A. — Yes. 

ii- — Any  of  them  taken  ott'  .uiy  oilier  boat?      A. — Xo. 

i}. — Did  you  take  any  olT  any  other  boat?      A. — Xo. 

Q.— Are  you  sure  about  thai"?      A.— In  1SH7? 

il. — Yes,  vou  are  cpiile  positive  as  to  that  are  vou?  A. — 
Yes. 

Q. — How  many  did  you  take  on  the  coast  that  year  with 
the  "Kate?"      A.— I  had  2.:{00  altogether  for  the  season. 
CO       Q. — Well,  how  many  did  you  take  on  the  roast.       Let  us 
get  away  from  those  "figures  2,:{00  and  1,S0((?       A.— Abcuit 
.*>00. 

(i. — Have  vou  got  anv  memorandum  book  to  sliow  tliat? 
A.— Xo. 

Q. — Have  you  se^n  any  memorandum  book  since  the  "Ari- 
:'l"  was  lost  in  IS!)!?      A. — Xo,  I  have  not. 

(i.— Was  your  memory  refreshed  as  to  these  figures  by  any 
papers?      A. —  I  lost  my  books. 

(i.— I  did  not  ask  yoii  that;  I  asked  you  if  your  nu-mory 
(X)    had  1m'(  n  refreshed  by  any  memorandum  since  IS'.tl?  .\.— No, 
I  don't  remember. 

(J. — When  was  your  attenticm  last  called  to  the  fact  that 
llu' catch  was  l,8(io  in  IJehring  Sea  in  1887?  A.— 1  remem- 
bered that. 

(i. — When  did  you  last  see  it  on  your  memorandum?  .\. — 
Saw  it  in  1801  when  I  had  my  books. 

Q. — .\nd  you  have  not  seen  anv  reference  to  i(  since?    A. 
-Xo. 


I, 


(1 
1) 


■  i 


n 


m 


PP  T  !' 


«lllMtMi< 


342 

Q.— Did  you  look  it  n]>  in  1S!H?  A.— Well,  I  could  not 
l'"lp  seeing  it,  seeing  ni.v  bo(tk  every  dsiy. 

(i. — Did  .von  see  evervthinK  in  tlie  book  evei-y  day?  A. — 
Well,  whenever  I  looked  at  it. 

Q. — Did  you  look  at  it  in  18!H?      A. — Onee  in  a  while,  yes. 

Q. — AVhat  oeeasion  did  you  have  for  looking  at  !he  catch 
of  the  "Kate"  for  1891?  'a.— I  was  seeing  the  catches  for 
every  season — looking  over. 

(■i. — Did  you  make  a  report  to  the  British  ('ounnissioners 
10  that  the  "Kate"  did  not  go  into  the  Behring  Sea  in  18S7? 
A.— What  is  that,  sir? 

Q. — I  asked  you  if  you  made  a  i-epoi-t  to  the  British  f'om- 
missioners  that  were  here  in  1891  that  the  "Kate''  did  not 
go  into  Behring  Sea  in  18S7?      A.— She  did  go  in. 

Q. — I  asked  you  if  you  made  a  reitort  or  statement  to  any- 
body in  1891  that  the  "Kate"  did  not  go  into  the  Behring  Sea 
in  1887?    A. — I  don't  understand  you. 

Mr.  Bodwell: — Ask  him  if  he  knows  who  the  British  Oom- 
20  missioners  are.      I  don't  believe  he  knows  there  are  any  such 
people. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  T<nited  States: — Did 
you  tell  that  to  anybody?     A. — Not  that  I  rememlter. 

Q. — Did  you  give  your  memorandum  book  to  anybody  in 
1891?      A.— Not  that  I  remember  of. 

Q. — Did  you  give  it  to  Mr.  Spi'in;<  in  1891?  A. — No,  not  my 
memorandum  book. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  Dr.  Dawson  or  Sir  (5eorg«'  Baden 
3      Powell?     A. — I  do  not  remember  them. 

Q.— Nor  the  fact  of  their  being  in  Victoria  in  18!)1?  A.— I 
do  not  remember. 

Q. — You  do  not  remember  telling  any  <me  in  1891  anything 
about  what  the  catch  was  in  1887?  A. — No,  not  that  1  re 
member. 

Q. — You  could  not  have  told  them  that  the  "Kate''  did  not 
go  to  Behring  Sea  in  1887?     A. — No,  I  could  not,  I  suppose 
she  did. 
40       Q.— Was  the  "Ariel"  a  total  loss  in  1891?    A.— No.  we  got 
her  up  again. 

Q. — Did  slu'  sink?    A. — Yes,  sunk. 

Q. — And  all  the  papers  <mi  board  her  were  destroyed?  A. 
— Yes. 

Q.— Where  did  you  keep  the  book  between  1887  and  1891? 
A. — 1  had  it  in  the  locker  of  the  cabin. 

Q. — What  boat  were  you  on  in  1888?  A. — I  was  on  the 
"Favourite." 

Q. — Did  you  have  the  book  with  you  then?     A. — Yes. 
50       Q.— What  boat  w«'re  you  <m  in  1889?    A.— On  the  "Kate." 

(J. — Did  you  have  the  book  with  you  tlu>n?    A. — Yes. 

(i-— \Nh!)t  boat  were  you  on  in  l'8!)0?     A.— On  the  ".\riel." 

il. — And  you  had  the  book  then?     A. — Yes. 

il. — Did  you  loctk  at  it  eviy  year?  A. — Well,  I  generally 
looked  at  it  once  in  a  while. 

Q.— Did  you  take  it  out  any  year  between  1887  and  1891? 
A . — Ye.s. 

Q.— Did  yoti  look  at  it  in  1891?    A.— Yes. 

Q. — You  remember  lo(»king  at  it  in  1891?    A. — I  must  have 
60   looked  at  it  because  it  was  right  there. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  looking  at  it?  A. — Yes,  lots  of 
times. 

(i. — Do  von  remember  looking  at  tlu'  catch  of  the  "Kate" 
as  stated  there  in  1891?     A.— Yes. 

Q. — Was  tli(>  book  in  the  "Ariel"  when  she  sank?    A. — Yes, 

Q. — Was  the  book  in  the  locker  of  the  ".Vriel"  when  she 
sank?     A. — Yes. 

Q. — Did  y(ni  look  there  after  she  was  raised?     A. — Yt's. 


343 

Q. — Did  yon  find  the  book?  A. — No.  the  piijierw  were  all 
wet  and  destroyed  wluitever  tlu-re  wuh  in  there. 

(i. — Yon  Kii.v  in  1HS7  .v<ni  had  a  navipitinp;  ottlcer  on  board 
and  yon  did  not  Itnow  inneli  wliere  yon  went?  A. — Yes.  we 
iiad  a  navigator. 

Q. — Wliat  did  yon  have  this  navigntor  for.  was  it  simply 
beeanse  of  his  knowled};e  of  the  seals  or  becanse  of  his  knowl- 
(•d{;e  of  the  waters?  A. — The  navifjator  is  to  jjet  the  position. 
I  am  not  a  navipitor  niyaelf. 
10  Q. — Does  positicm  mean  where  the  seals  are  or  where  there 
is  water?     A. — Position  is  to  know  where  the  vessel  is. 

Q. — .Inst  simi)ly  to  take  the  vessel's  position?  A. — Yes, 
to  take  the  vessel's  position. 

Redireet  examination  by  Mr.  Bodwell: 

Q. — How  were  yon  paid  in  18H7?  A. — I  was  paid  $50  a 
month  and  two-bits  a  skin. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — lias 
20  not  the  witness  been  already  (>xainined  on  this  point? 

Mr.  Bodwell: — My  learned  friend  has  examined  him  as  to 
his  recollection  of  the  fijinres  of  the  catch  (>ach  year.  The  wit- 
ness has  jnst  said  that  he  was  paid  so  ninch  per  month  and 
so  much  per  skin.  His  livinjj;  depended  on  how  many  skins 
lie  caught,  to  a  certain  extent,  and  that  is  a  very  {j;ood  reason 
why  he  should  know  how  many  skins  he  took. 

To  the  witness: — Q. — How  many  skins  did  yon  get  in  the 
stern  boat  in  1880? 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — Is 
not  that  a  new  matter? 

.Mr.  Rodwell: — I  do  not  think  so. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  pai-t  of  the  United  States: — The 
examination  of  this  witness  has  been  extremely  lentjtliy  al- 
ready. 


30 


Mr.  Hodwell: — Not  on  my  part. 
40 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — It 

has  been  i)retty  long  on  both  sides,  I  may    sjiy.     I     believe 
I  his  is  a  new  matter  as  to  what  the  stern  boat  caught. 

Mr.  Bodwell; — Q. — Do  yon  remember  how  many  skins  yon 
got  in  the  stern  boat?    A. — 1  got  about  70. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  the  total  catch  of  the  "Favourite" 
or  the  total  number  of  skins  she  bnnight  back  to  Vittoria  in 
18,s«? 

The  Ccmmiissiimer  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Has 
lie  not  told  that  three  times? 

Mr.  Hodwell: — It  was  brought  out  in  the  examination  that 
the  "Onward"  transft'iicd  skins  from  the  'Favourite"  and  I 
ask  him  now  if  he  remembei's  how  m.nny  skins  tiie  "Favoui- 
ile"  brought  back,  to  this  port  at  the  end  of  the  season  and 
delivered  in  Victoria.  That  I  submit  yonr  H(»nonr  is  a  jx-r 
fi<tly  r«'levant  (piestion. 

60  The  Commissioner  on  the  i)iirt  of  the  I'nited  States: — The 
".\iiiiiinati<m  of  this  witness  has  lasted  nearly  an  hour,  and 
tills  is  proving  a  fact  from  which  we  can  adduce  other  facts. 
He  is  caUed  now  to  meet  a  contested  fact  as  to  the  average 
'iiicli  and  to  try  and  determine  in  some  way  that  would  be 
I  lie  jirobable  catch  of  a  particular  vessel  by  proving  the 
catches  of  various  other  v«'ssels.  In  order  that  we  should  de- 
leiiiiine  the  |irinci|>al  issue  we  have  gut  to  try  out  here  a  sub- 
•irdinat*'  issue  ns  to  how  mneh  this  vessel  caught  that  year 


■',■  'I'.li 


vi  !  i 


344 

in  tlic  It(>lii-iiiK  Sea.  Wluil  I  hii.v  with  ivfcn'nc*'  to  tliiH  wit- 
lU'Hs  will  also  ai>l»ly  to  «»tli«'i'  witiicNsos.  You  have  had  xev- 
t'l'al  witiu'HBOH  like  liiin  Ix'forc 

Mr.  liodwcll: — May  it  ph-asc  .vour  Honour,  the  nuittor  piv- 
st'Hts  itself  to  me  in  tliis  way — 

Tho  Couuuissicmor  on  tho  jmrt  of  the    United    Mtati's: — I 

simply  call  your  attention  to  thin,  hut  of  (•(►ursc  you  can  fjo 

on  and  examine  the  witiiess.     When  you  luive  finished  with 

lO   liim.   can   you    imapne  that  his  testimony   could   alfect    the 

minds  of  the  Commissionera  a  {treat  deal? 

Mr.  Kodwell: — The  cross-examination  has  attempted  to 
l)rove  that  the  memory  of  the  witness  must  l)e  wroufj  from 
the  simple  fact  tliat  the  "Onward"  transferred  certain  skins 
from  the  "Favourite"  in  tlie  liehi-iufc  Sea.  There  is  a  rellec- 
titm  on  the  credibility  of  the  wltn<'ss  and  I  am  now  examiniufj 
him  on  a  uuitter  which  was  tirou{>:ht  out  in  cross-examination. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  Htates: — So 
20  far  as  I  am  concerned  you  may  proceed.     I     am     s])cakin{j 
more  with  resjard  to  future  examinatiims  than  to  this  one. 

By  Mr.  Hodwell: 

Q. — Do  you  know  the  number  of  skins  l)rou}ilit  back  and 
delivered  l)y  the  "Favouiite"  at  the  port  of  Victoria  at  the 
end  of  the  s«'ason?     A. — I  do  not  remember. 

Q. — Wlint  was  the  name  of  tlu'  tradinj;  jjost  wlu-re  you 
were  stati(med  and  that  you  were  examined  about?  A. — 
30   Kyoqnot. 

<i — Did  vou  sav  that  tlie  "Uarolena"  came  to  Kvoquot? 
A.— No,  sir. 

Q. — Where  did  she  conu'?  A. — She  came  at  a  place  10 
miles  away. 

Q. — Did  you  see  her  when  she  was  at  that  jilace  10  miles 
away?    A. — I  did  not  see  her  but  I  know  she  was  tliere. 

Q. — You  only  know  frcmi  what  you  were  told?    A. — Yes. 

Q. — And  have  no  kn(»wl(d}je  yourself  al)out  it?    A. — No. 


40 


The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — Do  you 
know  liow  many  skins  were  transferred  from  the  "Onward"? 
A. — I  do  not  remember,  sir. 

This  closed  the  evidence  of  tlie  witness. 


<«lMi 


50 


Charles  Spring  (already  examin<Ml)  was  r,  -called  on  behalf 
of  (Jreat  l^ritain. 

Examinaticm  l»v  Mr.  Ho(!w<'ll: 


Q. — Yo)i  were  the  owner  of  the  "Onward"  in  ISSCi.  Mr. 
Si»riji}i;?    A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — .\nd  the  owner  of  the  "Favouiite?     A. — Yes.  sir. 

(i. — Do  you  know  how  many  skins  were  transfeiied  from 
the  "Onward"  to  tlie  "Favourite"  in  IJehriiifi;  Sea?  A. — I  was 
informed  r)(IO. 

Q. — Were  the  accounts  of  the  "Favourite"  and  (lie  "Oii- 
<5o    waid"  kept  sei»arately  in  your  b'toks?     A. — Yes. 

H. — And  will  they  show  the  total  number  of  skins  credited 
to  each  schooner  at  the  end  of  the  season?     \. — Yes. 

ii. — Can  you  jjive  these  fifiiires  lu'ie?  A. — I  can  do  so,  but 
they  are  not  at  hand  now. 

Q. — Hut  you  can  >;et  them?     \. — I  can  i;et  them  later  on. 

Mr.  Warren: — Your  rionours,  we  propose  to  jiostjione  the 
cross  examination  of  this  witness  unlil  we  get  the  Itooks. 


10 


20 


30 


40 


JO 


345 

RoluM-t  JiiincH  Kci'  wiiH  nillcd  »n  ii  witneHM  on  bi'lialf  of 
llcr  Miijcsty  nnd  duly  »w»)rn. 

Examination  b.v  Mr.  IVters: 

Q. — Mr.  Ker,  you  reside  in  Victoria?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  is  the  name  of  the  firm  you  are  with?  A. — R 
1'.  liitliet  &  Co.,  Ltd. 

Q. — Are  they  a  joint  stoeli  company?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i. — A  larfje  institution,  I  believe?    A. — Yos. 

Q. — And  connected  larjjely  wltli  sealing?  matters?  A. — 
Yes. 

(J. — And  they  have  beene  in  that  business  for  a  number  of 
years?    A.— Yes.  since  1H>i7  and  ISSS. 

Q. — In  what  capacity  are  you  employed  there?  A. — I  am 
the  tn-asurer  of  (he  company  at  i)resent. 

(i. — And  have  a  knowledge  of  all  their  business  transac- 
tions?   A. — Yes,  sir. 

il. — And  a  particular  knowled}j;e  of  the  sealinj^  transac- 
lions,  I  believe?     A. — Yes. 

Q. — I  will  briufi;  you  to  the  point:  Do  they  own  nmonj^st 
others  a  scluxmer  called  the  "Maggie  Mac''?  A. — ^Ve  acted 
as  agents  for  her. 

Q. — She  was  engaged  in  sealing?      A. — Yes. 

(i. — And  also  the  "Annie  Seymour"'?    A. — Yes. 

Q. — I  believe  these  two  schooners  were  fitted  out  in  the 
year  1887?    A.— In  1888  I  think  was  the  first  yeai-. 

(J. — Those  are  two  schooners  that  vou  fitted  out  that  year? 
A.— Yes. 

Q. — The  tonnage  of  the  "Maggie  Mac"  is  what?  A. — 70 
Ions. 

Q. — And  she  carries  how  many  men?    A. — 2ti  men. 

Q. — What  is  the  tonnage  of  the  "Annie  Seymour?"  A. — 
1 1:{  tons. 

(i. — And  she  carries  23  of  a  crew?    A. — Yes. 

(.}. — Have  you  made  out  from  your  books  a  correct  state- 

(i. — What  is  the  tonnage  of  the  "Annie  Seymour"  and 
the  "Maggie  Mac"?    A. — Yes,  I  have. 

Q. — Showing  year  by  year  what  the  cost  of  ammunition, 
outfit,  provisions,  advances  to  crew,  insurance,  labour,  sun- 
dries and  wages  are?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

ti- — I'nder  separate  headings?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

ii. — Can  you  produce  that  to  the  court?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  I  believe  you  havt>  the  actual  vcmchers  if  requir- 
ed? A. — Yes,  I  could  not  siiy  for  all.  We  have  all  of  the 
"Maggie  JIac";  every  voucher. 

Q. — Is  there  any  j»ractical  difference  or  is  there  much  dif- 
ference in  fitting  out  these  vessels  in  18S7  or  188(!  and  18S»? 
-V. — I  do  not  think  so — I  do  not  th'nk  there  is  much  difl'er- 

Mr.  IV'ters: — Without  going  thiough  Ihis  because  It  will 
lake  a  length  of  time.  1  projiose  if  niy  le.'irned  friend  consents 

10  go  through  (his  s(aten\en(  generally  and  then  put  it  in  as 

11  whole. 

^Ir.  Dickinson: — We  cerfainly  object  (o  showing  (he  ou(rtt 
of  l!ic  "Carolena"  in  (his  way  and  we  objei  (  further  llui(  you 
tiiiiii()(  mIiow  the  outfil  of  even  these  ships  by  a  statement  of 
tills  kind  or  by  this  wiiness. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  do  not  wish  to  go  into  any  very  great  d<>tail. 
I  took  by  chance  two  vessels  which  were  fair  example's  of 
wliat  i(  would  cost  to  outfit.  We  are  in  (he  position,  as  has 
tieen  alicady  stated,  with  regard  to  the  "Carolena,"  that  on 
iiccount  of  circumstances  over  which  we  have  no  control  the 
iiint(er  has  been  allowed  to  drift  for  10  years.  The  possibil- 
ity of  getting  evidence  to  prove  the  case  as  clearly  as  we 
would  like  (o  jn-ove  it  does  not  now  exist  and  w«'  hav«'  got  to 


i*  !i  Si'!'     • 


ill 


ii'h; 


m 


Hi  .  n 


m 


iiiii 


'.'-  ■   '    I 


'!:)■ 


Pi 


ill 


-■'•'■'    '■'' j 

m 

mi 

m 

lit'ii  i; 


i  !f|!|fF 


*(|t(nU 


lO 


20 


346 

Ao  the  bo8t  we  can  under  the  t  ircninstanci'H.  I  cannot  8O0 
tliat  ni.v  learned  friend  can  fairl.v  <tltjecl  to  ni.v  iindinn  in  evi 
dence  showing;  wliat  vcshcIm  of  a  Hiniilar  cliaracter  acliiallv 
coHt  in  oflier  .rears.  It  is  from  tliat  tliat  .von  must  draw  a 
comparison.  I*arti<nlarl.v  is  tliat  so  wlien  tlie  witness  lias 
made  the  pn'liminarv  declaration  tliat  it  cost  about  the  same 
to  iirovisiiin  sliips  in  IHSO  as  it  did  in  1S!^(!. 

Tlie  Commissioner  «»n  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — For 
how  man.v  years  is  that  comparison? 

Mr.  P(>ters:— I  take  the  "Manfjie  Mac"  for  tlie  .years  IHHit. 
IHH!)  and  IWH  and  the  "Annie  S«'.vniour"  for  tlie  same  three 
j'ears.     There  are  three  .years  for  each. 

The  t^ommissioner  on  the  jMirt  of  the  I'nited  States : — How 
long  did  it  take  ns  to  go  through  the  youchers  of  the  "Car- 
olena"  herself? 

Mr.  Peters: — I  do  not  know  as  to  that  .your  Honour. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — And 
has  not  the  opposite  side  a  right  to  enter  into  the  details  of 
every  one  of  these  yonchers  for  each  ship  and  foi*  each  .year? 

Mr.  Peters: — Sujipose  it  does  hai)pen  that  in  order  to  proye 
our  case  there  should  be  a  length.y  cross-examination — 
and  if  in.y  learned  friend  thinks  he  can  get  an.y thing  out  of  it 
that  ma.y  become  necessary — is  that  an.v  reason  wli.y  we 
should  not  be  allo\ved  to  present  our  case  as  be.st  we  can? 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majest.y: — It  seems  to 
30  me  that  where  yon  go  oft"  from  a  particular  case,  the  usual 
course  is  to  ask  tlu'  person  who  is  proyt'ii  to  liaye  the  know- 
ledge, general  questions  as  to  the  cost,  or  as  to  the  matter 
that  he  is  sought  to  be  interrogated  uiioii.  Then,  of  course, 
it  is  open  to  cross-examine  the  witness  upon  that.  That 
course  is  usuall.y  adopted  in  order  to  prevent  wandering  into 
particulars  that  are  onl.y  relevant,  if  at  all,  in  the  general. 
It  is  frequently  the  case  that  witnesses  who  have  the  know- 
ledge are  asked  for  the  general  results  of  their  knowledge, 
and  it  is  competent  testimon.v.  It  is  not  usual,  however,  to 
4  descend  to  all  kinds  of  particulars  respecting  it,  and  for  the 
reason,  that  you  may  get  into  endless  enciuiries  which  might 
lead  you  away  from  the  jiarticular  question  at  issue. 

Mr.  Peters: — For  that  reason  I  had  this  statem«'nt  made 
out  in  a  short  form  and  it  in  reality  amounts  to  that  very 
same  conclusion.  I  might  ask  this  witness  what  it  cost  for 
ammunition  for  a  vessel  of  so  many  tons,  and  by  looking  at 
this  statement  he  could  give  me  the  answer.  I  thought  it 
the  more  reasonable  course  to  have  made  up  a  statement 
50  showing  from  year  to  .year  what  these  supjilies  cost  and  tak- 
ing each  vessel  for  three  .years.  This,  I  believ«',  would  short- 
en time  and  it  was  for  that  purpose  that  I  did  it.  If  I  go  into 
details  on  this  statement  it  wiil  only  ani<»uiit  to  the  witness 
answering  n;.v  questions  from  tlie  information  which  he  has 
gathered  in  this  document. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — The  learned  Counsel  has  stated  that  he 
did  not  think  that  the  Counsel  for  tlu'  United  Stats  could 
fairly  object  to  this  testimony.  1  beg  to  say  that  the  testi- 
60  mony  in  this  case  is  to  lie  ]»rinted,  as  I  understand  it,  and  will 
circulate  in  book  form.  I  cannot  permit  this  record  to  be 
made  into  hi.storv  and  circulated  among  jicople  interested  in 
this  case — in  my  own  country  at  least — I  cannot  allow  this 
class  of  testimony  to  go  In  without  recording  my  objection 
and  my  protest. 

My  learned  friend  says  that  10  y(>ars  have  elajised  and 
therfore  he  must  get  secondary  testimony  or  must  be  in  the 
position  of  a  party  \yhose  testimony  has  been  destro.ved.  We 


10 


34; 

liiivo  no  objt'otiou  to  IiIh  m'ttiiig  tlii'  bost  tostiinony  availublu 
but  he  has  doix;  tliat  already.  llt>  hau  had  the  owner  of 
thiM  Hhip  the  (Jai-olena  on  the  stand  and  the  <»wner  has  testi- 
lled  that  lie  has  >{ot  eltliei'  the  ori);inal  or  a  dnplieate  eojiy  of 
every  voucher  for  every  dollar's  worth  of  supplies  that  went 
on  board  that  ship.  The  owner  of  the  ship  lias  admitted 
and  has  testified  that  he  is  fully  able  to,  and  that  he  is  un- 
embarrassed, in  showinj?  a  v<»Heher  for  the  last  morsel  of  sup- 
plies and  the  last  shingle  that  went  on  the  Carolena. 

Now  it  is  proposed  to  corroborate  the  testimony  of  Mr. 
Muiisie  the  owner  and  of  Mr.  Heehtel  by  putting  in  an  account 
of  what  some  other  concern  furnishes  its  ships  with,  and  by 
giving  details  over  again  as  to  how  certain  other  ships  are 
furnished.  Then  we  are  asked  to  compare  that  ship  with 
her  tonnage  and  her  equipment  of  men  with  the  ship  now 
before  the  Court.  We  are  asked  to  take  another  rule  of 
general  average  such  as  is  being  applie<l  in  this  case  to  the 
])rol)able  catch  for  which  damages  are  claimed.  We  are 
given  another  rule  of  extraordinary  probabilities  from  which 
20  the  Commisioners  may  adduce  the  value  of  the  supplies.  You 
have  the  testimony  of  Mr.  Munsie,  that  he  has  put  in  certain 
sup])lies  on  the  Carolena,  and  you  have  the  details  ef  these 
and  consequently  this  testimony  is  unnecessary.  Hven  if 
it  were  necessary  it  would  be  impossible  to  pnt  in  the  fur- 
nishings of  the  ship  from  a  Rtatement  made  by  the  book-keep- 
er. Counsel  would  have  to  show  what  they  are.  We  ob- 
ject ujion  l)oth  grounds. 

The  t'ommisioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — They 
,Q  would  have  all  to  be  classified  and  analyzed  exactly  as  in  the 
^     case  of  the  "Carolena." 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Exactly. 

The  Co)nmissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — We 
have  had  this  question  up  for  several  days  and  it  is  an  old 
(piestion  to  the  Commisioners.  It  is  proving  a  contested 
signature  by  proving  another  signature  likewise  contested. 
That  is  the  way  it  strikes  me.  If  I  understand  my  learned 
brotiier.  that  which  you  now  offer  to  do,  Mr.  Peters,  is  not  ad- 
niissilile.  When  you  do  what  Judge  King  lias  suggested  I 
shall  give  my  views  about  it. 

Mr.  Peters: — It  is  true  that  we  have  Mr.  Munsie's  state- 
ment but  my  learned  friend  says  he  is  not  satisfied  with  that, 
lie  contends  that  certain  goods  on  board  the  Carolena  were 
used  for  trading  and  were  not  used  in  regard  to  the  supplies 
of  that  i)articnlar  ship. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  T'nited  S1at<'8: — That 
3"   is  a  i)ure  cpiestion  of  fact.       I  do  not  think  Mr.  Peters  that 
you  ever  offered,  before  in  your  life,  evidence  of  this  sort  in  a 
<V)urt  of  law. 


i'.=li 


•ii..,;ii 


!i  li)!iiia;'ll 


Mr.  Peters:— I 
this  form. 


am 


not  sure  that  it  has  ever  come  up  in 


M 


Co 


Tlie  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  ITnited  States: — This 
Is  a  (|uestion  of  fact  as  to  what  supplies  went  on  board  this 
vessel  and  whar  become  of  them. 

Mr.  Peters: — The  learned  Counsel  on  the  other  side  have 
iitidiipted  lo  show  that  Mr.  Munsie's  statement  with  reg.ird 
lo  the  jirovisions  put  on  board  the  ship  is  not  correct  and  that 
tile  siijipliea  were  too  large  and  were  unreasonable.  That 
is  the  line  of  their  cross-examination  from  beginning  to  end. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — And 
tliey  may  say  that  with  regard  to  every  one  of  the  vessels 
tliat  you  have  claimed  here. 


fllll 


34« 


:!}!i 


UMfl: 


lO 


Mr.  iN'tciH: — And  we  hiivi'  the  rifjlit  to  fjivc  our  cvidt'iicc  to 
••"iitnidict  tliiit.  Afiiiiii  i  Hiiliinit  tlial  if  tin*  «'vid('ii('<'  in  ad- 
iiiiHMiltIc  at  all  it  nlioiild  lie  allowed,  and  that  tlu-  |iosHihlt> 
length  of  tli<>  ri'oHH-cxaniination  siioiild  not  Ik*  pciinittcd  to 
w(>i);h  a^ainHt  its  ndniiHHion. 

The  ConuniMMiouor  on  the  part  of  the  Tnitcd  StatcN; — Von 
know  iMTfcctly  well,  Mr.  I't'toiK,  that,  aH  a  inle,  the  CourtH 
i'efnNi>  to  try  wuliordinate  isHtics,  and  chiellv  on  the  ^jronnd 
that  they  would  run  out  to  great  lenpth. 

The  ConiniiHsioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majewty: — I  think 
we  are  of  the  opinion  that  the  paper  cannot  be  received. 

Mr.  I'eterB: — 1  nnderKtand  I  cannot  put  in  the  paper  as  a 
whole,  except  by  conBent. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  pa?'t  of  tbe  I'nited  States: — Th  • 
objection  is  not  taken  to  th*'  form  merely 


Mr.  Peters: 
2°  nnderstand? 


-The  objection  is  taken  to  the  substance,  do  I 


Mr.  Dickinson: — I  ol)ject  to  all  this  testimony,  substantial- 

Mr.  Peters:— Take  for  instance  tlio  item  of  ammunition. 
Po  the  t'ommisioneis  rule  that  I  am  noi  at  liberty  to  ask 
what  the  ammunition  for  the  "Mapmie  Mac"  cost  in  the  years 
1889,  18!K)  and  18i>l. 

The  (Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — As  at  pres- 
30  ont  advised  my  impression  is  that  you  could  ask  what  would 
be  a  reasonable  cost  f(»r  sujiplyinf;  ammunitiim  of  this  par- 
ticular sort  in  188tJ  and  18S7.  and  then  if  you  lay  the  founda- 
tion for  it,  provinf?  that  it  would  be  the  same  in  18Si»;  or  at 
all  events  that  the  witness  would  ahv  an  opinion  as  to  his 
knowledpe  in  isst;,  as  to  his  knovvledRe  in  1887,  and  as  to  his 
knowledn<'  of  what  was  a  reasonable  cost  of  supplies  in  1S8!>. 
That  is  the  way  it  stands  as  it  appears  to  me  at  present.  It 
occurs  to  me  that  on  the  objection  you  could  not  f?o  through 
even  the  proof  of  what  would  be  the  cost  of  snj^jdying  a  ves- 
40  sel  like  the  "Carolena"  with  supplies  of  a  certain  sort  in  the 
year  1880,  that  is  the  view  of  the  objection  I  take. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — 1  have 
not  heard  what  Counsel  for  the  United  Stjiites  has  to  say  about 
it  but  my  impiessiou  is  to  agree  with  my  learned  brother 
under  certain  qualitications.  My  present  o])inion  is  that  you 
should  call  j)erson8  here  who  are  in  the  habit  of  fitting  out 
sealing  ves.sels  in  1S8(»  and  ask  them  the  simple  (juestion: 
What  would  be  the  reasonable  cost  of  the  outfit  of  a  vessel  of 

50  27  tons  and  a  ciew  of  so  many  men,  for  sealing  in  Kehring 
Sea  in  188G.  That  I  believe  would  be  within  the  scop«'  of 
what  the  Tr«aty  allows  us  to  do altlMtiigh  not  even  that  might 
be  allowed  within  the  ordinary  rules  of  evidence.  The 
qnalifications  I  would  make  would  be  these,  and  I  think  my 
learned  brother  would  agree  with  me — I  say  this,  subject  to 
hearing  what  counsel  for  the  Cnited  States  have  to  say  iiboul 
it — the(iualificati(m  I  make  is  that  there  should  be  but  the  one 
general  question  touching  the  entire  outfit  for  a  vessel  of  this 
class  for  188(J.       That  is  a  reasonable  outfit.       You  should 

60  not  be  compelled  on  your  part  to  go  into  details,  although 
of  course  on  cross-examination  counsel  may  go  into  details. 
We  should  not  sit  here  to  hear  details  with  reference  to  mat- 
ters of  this  kind? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Except  with  regard  to  the  vessel  nnder 
consideration. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — Yes,  and 
if  we  believed  in  the  <'omi>et(>ncy  of  the  witness  to  answer  the 


lO 


20 


349 

^fiu-i'til  (|iifHli(iii,  llitil  JH  ii(1«M]nal(>  ('\ iih'iicc,  iiiid  iiiiK'hm  it  Ih 
iilliula'd  il  HliiiulH  iiH  pivdv  sIioiik  cvidfiu'c.  It  Hhould  he 
provt'ii,  of  coiirst',  tlitit  III*'  wiliirMH  Idih  the  r(M|uiHitu  know- 
ledge :iiid  iiifoi'iiDitioii  on  tlie  Huhjet-t.  I  am  nierelv  t'X])i'«-H- 
sing  an  otl-ltiind  o|>ini<)n,  Hnlijeet.  as  I  Kaid  Itefoiv,  to  ehauging 
1IIV  mind  upon  the  matter  after  conHideration. 

The  CommlBsicmer  on  the  imrt  of  the  I'nited  States: — I  may 
add.  that  so  far  an  we  have  Iieard  yet,  this  witness  does  not 
a|>|ieai-  to  be  <|ualiti(d  in  the  matter. 

Mr.  Diekinson: — I  am  also  about  to  make  an  objectiou  iu 
lliat  respect. 

•Mr.  Peters: — This  witness  may  show  himself  nil  through 
I  he  examination  to  be  thoroughly  competent  on  the  details  of 
the  matter.  However,  having  regard  to  the  statement  mad« 
!>v  the  t'ommissioneis  I  do  not  prtipose  to  examine  this  wit- 
iKsw  any  further.  I  (aoiose  to  let  this  matter  drop  so  far 
as*  this  witness  is  contei  lu-d  and  to  withdraw  this  document. 
I  lo  not  wish  to  impress  upon  th«>  ('ommissioners  evidence 
w'lich  they  do  not  think  necessary  and  perhaps  in  admiss- 
ib.e.      We  shall  attempt  to  ja-ove  this  in  another  form. 

There  is  one  matter  still  pending  before  the  Commission- 
cis.  and  before  we  cIosj'  this  case,  as  we  intend  to  now,  we 
v.oald  like  to  halve  the  opinion  of  the  Commissioners  on  the 
]ioiiit  I  refer  to.  That  is  with  regard  to  the  documentary 
evidence  tendered  by  us  from  the  case  of  the  I'nited  States. 

The  Commissionei'  on  the  jmrt  of  Iler  Majesty: — Does  the 
30  case  refer  to  these  athdavits  in  any  way,  and  if  so  iu  what 
way. 

Mr.  IV'ters: — It  refers  to  them  distinctly,  and  iu  some  in- 
stances recites  them 

The  Commissioner  on  tip  part  of  Her  Majesty: — In  what 
way  does  the  case  refer  to  tlie  aftidavlts? 

.Mr.  IVters: — I  will  take  one  example  and  read  one  passage 
frian  tlie  case  which  I  have  already  read  In  tore. 
■^^       "The  herd  spreads  along  the  coast  in  a  loii^',  irregular  b«»dy, 
generally  advancing  nortliward  until  they  begin     to     enter 
Iteliring  Sea,"  etc. 

Tiiere  you  will  tind  a  reference  marked  tigure  three  in 
small  tigures.  and  that  refers  to  a  statement  made  by  Charles 
•1.  llaig.  It  is  the  same  with  regard  to  several  of  the  atti- 
davits  I  have  r('ferr<d  to.  That  attidavit  is  referred  to  for 
tlu'  a\itliority  for  the  statement  they  make. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — That  refers  to  something  in  the  foot  note, 
5'^  whether  it  is  cited  or  not. 

Ml'.  Peters: — These  wen-  all  served  upon  tlu'  Itritish  (!ov- 
ciinuent  as  a  part  of  the  case  and  as  an  appendix  to  the  case; 
that  is  the  way  they  are  all  ref»'rred  to.  If  you  take  the 
Aiiicri<an  case  you  will  tind  that  these  very  athdavits  are  re- 
ferred to  in  the  case  by  their  number,  and  tlu'n  the  whole 
tiling  is  served  upon  the  Itritish  Ciovi'rnment  as  an  appendix 
fo  llle  <Msc. 

(•<)  The  Coiiiiiilssioni'r  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States. — I  will 
iniike  a  statement  on  l)ehalf  of  .Judge  King  :ind  myself.  We 
arc  not  entirely  in  harmony  about  these  aflidavits  that  are 
iitTered.  From  conversation  I  have  had  with  Judge  King,  I 
M'u  rather  of  the  oiiinion  that  he  is  inclined  to  the  view  that 
iliey  are  admissible. 

Tlie  <'onimissloner  on  (he  jiart  of  Her  Majesty: — I  am  not 
f'liic  Ihat  they  are  not  adini.ssiblo. 


i    lilii'ii;.;! 


'■:     i 

, 

J;' 

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350 

Tlu'  <.*<miiiiiHi<iiM>i-  on  the  jMirt  of  tlic  riiKcd  RtalcH: — I 
mil  not  Nine  tli<',v  iii'«>  not  iidiiiiHNibIc,  iiltlioii^li  iii,v  iiiiiitl  Iiniiih 
ftroiiKly  to  tlu>  Hiilf  'IdiI  tlit'.v  iir<>  not  iitliiiiHHiltU',  mid  for  tin' 
rt'iisoiiM  I  HUfj^t'stt'd  tlu*  otlitT  day.  Tlio  conclusion  Wf  have 
c«niu'  to  \h  tliat  on  the  wliolc,  we  niiiHt  let  tlicHo  affldnvitH  go 
in  d(>  ))«'nc  cHHc;  tlic  qucHtion  of  tlicii'  adniiHMiliility  to  lit>  left 
to  final  arKunu'ut. 

The  ConuiilHsUMM'i'  on  the  imrf  of  Hit  Maji'sty: — I  nicfidy 
wish  to  add  one  word  and  that  in  to  «'ni]ihaHi/.t>  the  obwrvu- 
tion  <»f  my  k'arncd  brotlior.  My  frame  of  mind  i«  Hlinply  one 
of  doiiht  aH  to  whether  thlH  may  not  lie  iidmiNHihlt';  not  feel- 
\\m  that  it  is  admisHihle  I  have  a  fii-lin^  of  doiilit  iih  to 
whether  it  may  not  l)e.  and  whether  it  may  not 
Ih>  the  Riibject  of  a  H(>rioiiH  art;iiiiient  Iiy  coiiiiHel.  I 
nu'rely  wish  to  leave  my  own  mind  open  to  consider  the  mat- 
ter wiien  1  have  further  light  ujion  it. 

Mr.  Peters: — Then  1  tdiall  proceed. 

20  The  (VimmiHHioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — I  presiime 
that  it  in  not  nect-sHary  to  make  an  exhibit  of  tlieHe,  becanse 
they  are  in  a  published  dociimeut  that  is  as  exact  as  our  own 
records. 

Mr.  Peters: — These  are  so  sliort  that  tliey  may  be  taken 
down  by  the  short  hand  rep«)rter. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  do  not  know  ns  the  t<  xt  has  anything  to 
it.  The  case  refers  to  the  fact,  "Tiiat  die  males  pass  much 
further  from  tlie  shore  than  the  females,  and  travel  more 
3*^  rapidly  towards  the  islands."  Then  comes  a  note,  figure  2, 
and  tlie  altidavit  is  a  long  one  on  that  subject.  The  Tnited 
Htates  case  cites  this  note  as  to  what  might  jHissibly  be  said 
as  to  the  migration  of  females.  Is  it  jiossible  that  an  aflfl- 
davit.  without  any  otlier  matter  that  may  be  in  it,  can  be  read 
for  all  purposes  as  evidence,  simply  liecanse  of  a  statement 
in  the  text.  Does  one  bald  statement  in  the  text  on  (me  sub- 
ject, set  the  extract  down  as  an  authority? 

The  (Vmimissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — It  must 
40   have  a  direct  bearing  on  tluit,  which  is  said  to  liave  s<mie 
relevancy  in  this  case. 

Mr.  Dickinson : — The  dei)osition  <»f  Hrennan  from  wliicli  my 
friend  proposes  to  read  covers  six  pages  of  printed  matter, 

Mr.  Peters: — I  projiose  to  read  only  ftiur  lines. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — And  Hrennan  was  a  lioat  steerer. 


50 


60 


Sir  Charles  Ililibcrt  Tapper: — And  a  witness  called  on  the 
part  of  the  I'nited  States. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Do  you  say  that  we  guarantee  everything 
that  was  said  liy  our  witnesses? 

Tlie  Commissionei'  on  the  jiart  of  the  I'nited  States: — Mr. 
Peters,  your  examination  of  Captain  Warren  as  to  the  way 
in  which  his  aftidavit  was  made  out,  shows  what  the  value  of 
this  evidence  is. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  first  refer  t(»  the  evidence  of  Hrennan.  He 
describes  himself  as  a  s(afaring  man  of  Seattle. 

The  (Commissioner  on  tiie  part  of  Her  Majesty: — You  are 
reading  such  particulars  ;is  you  rely  upon? 

Mr.  I'eters: — Yes. 


The  witness  Hreiiitan  says: 

"I  am  .'57  years  r)f  age.  was  boiii  in  London,  am  by  occiipa- 
titin  a  seafaring  man,  and  reside  at  Scallh-,  in  the  State  of 


30 


351 

SVtiMliiiiKtoii.  I  liiivc  H|M'ii(  tile  iM'Ht  vi'juh  (tf  in.v  life  in  1lii« 
( l(>H<>  Hfiid.v  tif  tlw  ilciiixi'iis  of  llu>  Mi'ii,  iii«-lii(liuK  m'uIh,  and 
till-  modi-  of  I'tiptiirinK  1h*-iii." 

Tlifii  lie  mii.vh: 

"N'nii'l.v  nil  would  loNi'  iiHiniy  if  llir  limiting  wiih  <'oiiflii<>il 
lo  lli*>  I'liritit'  ot'ciiii,  Itiit  IIm'.v  dt>|M-iid  on  III*'  Iti'liriu};  Kt'ii 
rali'li  wluTf  till*  hciiIn  iu'i'  more  |il<>n(iful  and  occupy  a  more 
liniilcd  Hpacf  aH  a  feeding  );r«Miiid." 

Tiicii  at  pa^c  '.W.\  lie  Ha.vH: 
lo  "Wlicn  they  arrive  at  HcIiHiik  Sea.  later  in  tlie  Neason  tliey 
Htai't  to  worl\  ill  eaincHt.  Tlie  water  Ih  full  of  tliein,  and  you 
(iin  lieav  tlieni  tiring  all  around.  Tlie  veKNels  enter  the  Hca 
aliont  .Inly,  hut  u<"t  the  numt  of  the  hcuIm  in  AujuiHt  or  early 
Sc|ilcnilier.  when  the  weatlier  jjelH  hud.  hut  they  UHually  have 
a  piod  cat<h  hy  that  time  if  not  interfered  with.  When  the 
Imiitinjf  Ih  tIniNhed  tliey  return  to  the  home  port,  the  crew  Ih 
paid  off,  the  vcbwI  \h  laid  up.  and  the  owner  takcB  chai-f^e  of 
the  HkiuH.  and  either  hcIIh  tlieiii  in  the  home  port  or  Hlii]m 
llieni  to  London." 
20  I  will  now  refer  to  the  next  one  at  pa|J!e  54(S,  Volume  3,  Am- 
ei-ican  Keju-int. 

Mr.  Dickinson:— Another  aflldavit? 

Mr.  Peters: — Thin  is  a  h'ttei'  put  in  hy  yon. 

Mr.  Lanstnt;: — I  would  call  your  attention  to  the  fact  that 
Itrennan  was  Npeakin^;  at  the  time  when  he  made  this  affi- 
davit, which  was  in  18!)2,  and  he  was  not  speaking  of  18SG. 

.Mr.  Peters:— Tlu'  aHldavit  I  refer  to  was  dated  in  1S!»2.  I 
now  propose  to  read  an  extract  which  is  found  at  page  547 
of  the  same  book. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Is  it  sot  ont  in  tlie  American  Case? 

Mr.  Peters: — It  is  jiart  of  the  apjiendix  to  the  cas«>  of  the 
I'liited  States.  It  is  a  letter  from  C.  M.  Lampsou  &  i\>.  to 
<'.  A.  Williams. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  cannot  iM'riiiit  lliis  to  he  continued  with- 
out raisinjj  a  (|uesti<m  about  it.      Tliis  does  not  appear  to  be 
•^°  cited  in  the  American  case. 

Mr.  Peters: — Yes,  In  the  same  languafie. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — This  is  a  letter  to  some  one  from  some  one 
else.  If,  hereafter  throutjhout  the  Convention  between  Iler 
.Majesty's  (iovernment  and  the  I'nited  States,  this  contro- 
versy sliould  be  carried  throiifili;  is  it  itossible  tlitit  the  Unit- 
ed States  could  hold  (ireat  Kritain  responsible  for.  and  hold 
lier  as  admitting  tlie  testimony  of  every  witness  that  has  been 
-o  called  here.  Nay.  more,  v  ill  the  I'nited  States  hold  Oreat 
Mritaiii  as  having;  admitted  every  piece  of  documentary  testi- 
mony put  in  by  lier;  nay,  more,  could  the  I'nited  States  hold 
'ii'eat  Itritain  not  merely  to  have  admitted  some  fact  tliat  she 
cited  from  a  letter  in  the  course  of  arffument  or  in  the  course 
of  staliii}^  the  case,  but  ludd  her  responsible  for  admitting 
(•very  other  fact  contained  in  that  letter? 

Mr.  I'eters: — That  is  the  very  same  fact. 

Mr,  Dickin.son: — We  sulmiit  with  great  ccmtidence  tliat  we 
(K)  iire  wandering;  wandering  ;iway  from  suitable  anthentic  tes- 
(iimaiy.  not  to  say  any  tiling  of  competent  relative  and  ma- 
(eiial  testimony.  We  submit  tliat  it  i«  incompetent  and  ir- 
I'clevaiit  wlien  we  charge  one  party  in  a  controversy  at  Paris, 
as  liaving  admitted  whatever  proof  they  offered,  and  bim'M'g 
iliciii  lo  tliat  proof.  How  does  one  know  what  a  witness  is 
uoiiig  to  sjiy?  Itrennan  is  supjiosed  to  tell  the  truth,  the 
v\li(ile  truth  and  nothing  but  tlie  truth,  but  a  i»art  might  be 
liikcn  from  his  aflidavit   prolcibly  if  Ue  did  teU  the  truth, 


I 


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30 


wliicli  wdiihl  not  miit  tlu*  coiniiscl  in  tlic  tasc.  In  many  rt^ 
HK'ctH,  if  lie  is  ;i  }>;(um1  witnoss  and  an  lioncst  man,  lu-  niiKlit 
diffor  from  tlii'  case  of  tlic  Tnitcd  States.  How  could  liis 
evidence'  be  bindin};  on  the  I'nited  Slates?  It  is  a  novel  pro- 
l)osilion  to  bind  Ihe  I'liiled  States  b.v  an  allidavit,  as  an  ad- 
mission on  their  part  simply,  because  a  witness  used  it  on 
tluir  side.  The  analofr.v  is  perfect  wlien  I  say  that  we  mif^ht 
as  well  bind  each  fjovei'umcnt  in  this  case  by  the  evidence 
of  whatever  witnesses  they  broujjht  fcn-ward,  or  by  wliat  is 
10  contained  in  any  document  i)roduced  by  them? 

Mr.  IVters: — This  reference  is  e.\))ressly  set  out  in  the  case 
word  for  word.     I  have  already  lead  it  without  objection. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — How  did  we  know  what  you  were  ffoinf;  to 
read,  and  how  do  we  know  wliether  we  will  object  to  it  or  not 
until  we  hear  it.  Do  not  criti<ise  me  for  not  objectin}{.  Vou 
are  now  about  to  read  a  letter  which  I  know  uofhin<?  alxnit. 

The  Oommissioner  on  the  i)art  of  Her  Majesty; — Mr.  I'et- 
Q  ers  if  it  is  in  the  same  terms  as  the  passajje  you  liave  read,  it 
is  hardly  worth  while. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Counsel  on  the  other  side  cannot  i)ut 
much  conlidence  in  the  evidence  they  produce  when  they 
have  to  fall  back  im  old  atlidavits  to  make  out  their  case. 

Mr.  Peters; — My  learned  friend  is  welcome  to  that  remark, 
but  I  do  not  think  he  will  take  much  pleasure  out  of  it  if  he 
should  come  to  say  that  his  own  affidavits  are  in-correct. 

Air.  Dickinson: — Some  of  tliem  are  no  doubt  incorrect,  al- 
tlion<j;h  the  witness  .nay  have  told  the  truth  as  lie  saw  it. 
If  this  testimony  of  Mr.  Hrennan's  is  put  in,  I  certainly  would 
be  entitled  to  cross-examine  ilr.  IJi'ennai!  as  to  it. 

Mr.  Peters: — You  can  call  Mr.  Urennan  as  your  own  wit- 
ness, or  you  can  cross  examine  him  if  you  like.  I  will  show 
you  the  references  which  I  wish  to  put  in,  and  then,  if  there 
is  any  reference  you  wish  to  object  to  you  can  make  your  ob- 
jection. 

Mr.  Dickson: — I  do  not  make  the  objection,  except  to  pre- 
serve my  respect  as  counsel. 

'Mr.  Peters: — The  referiMice  wliich  I  ]»ro])ose  to  read  is  from 
l)aKe  r)4!S  of  the  ap])endix,  Volum*'  :?  of  the  I'nited  States 
case.      It  is  word  for  word  in  the  case. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — Then  it  is 
not  necessary  to  read  it. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — It  is  tiie  report  of  the  American  conimis 
sioners  and  not  the  American  case. 

Sir  Charles  Ilibbt-rt  Tupper: — It  is  put  in  as  part  of  Ihe 
I  a  so. 

The  ( 'oinniissioucr  on  the  part  of  llie  Inilcil  States. —  I 
think  it  is  rifiht  to  say  a  word  in  addition  lo  what  I  h:tvi'  al 
ready  said.  I  spoke  the  other  day  jfenerally  about  alhdavits 
and  I  spoke  about  Mr.  Peters"  contention:  Tlial  tiiis  was  a 
continuation  of  the  same  case  and  that  if  these  atlidavits  were 
used  in  another  i»ari  of  the  case  by  the  I'liitcd  States  Ihey 
could  be  used  here.  Now,  in  the  sii'eat  majority  of  interna- 
tional arbitrations  lo  wiiicii  liie  rniled  Stales  have  been 
heretofore  a  parly,  proofs  wer-e  necessarily  taken  l)y  atlidavits 
because  there  was  no  (dlier  way  of  doiuji;  it.  I  have  looked 
over  stnue  of  the  treaties  wiiicii  I  have  had  within  my  reacli. 
sii.ce  this  nnilter  came  ui>,  and  there  is  nothing;  i)rovided  in 
IIkiu  as  to  Ihe  nature  of  tiie  evidence  that  should  be  olTered. 
P.ni  liere.  we  are  bound  lo  lake  eiliier  oral  testimony  or  to 
deip;iiid  siiitalilc  and  autiienlic  evidence.      We  are  not  at  all 


40 


SO 


60 


353 

in  Uu'  posilion  that  llic  raris  Tribunal  was  in  tliat  ivspcct. 
\\'«'  art'  not  comiK'Hcd  to  talvo  ailidavits.  W'v  ai-f  here  witli 
all  tlic  apitnrtenanei's  of  an  ordinary  lonrt  of  law.  I  do  not 
mean  to  sa.y  that  "snitablc,  authentic  testimony"  means 
exactly  the  evid*  nee  that  is  admissible  by  the  stiiVt  rules  of 
Common  Law.  We  have  not  i»roeeeded  on  tiiat  theory, 
and  probably  ncuie  <»i  us  would  ajrree  to  that  tlieory.  I 
repeat  that  we  are  not  in  the  position  of  these  Tribunals  who 
have  been  compelled   to  t.ike  atlidavits.       We  all   know  as 

10  practical  lawyers,  how  relatively  worthless  some  of  these 
orifjinal  allidavilK  are.  For  my  own  part  I  would  rather  Imve 
a  letter  than  an  allidavit,  because  the  letter  is  the  natural 
lan^uafje  of  the  person  writiuf;  it;  wliile  ailidavits,  like  thesis 
attested  here,  are  drawn  nj*  formally  and  stitlly  by  others  and 
are  then  sij;ned  by  those  who  make  them.  They  have  al- 
ways been  rejected  by  all  courts  except  in  the  early  stajjes  of 
I  lie  proceedings,  and  in  cases  where  tliey  have  been  compelled 
to  receive  tliem.  In  cases  for  a  preliminary  injunction  we 
are  com)i.'l!"d  to  accept  aflidavits.  but  tr<'t  rid  Of  them  as  soon 

20  as  we  can.  Nobody  ever  heard  that  atlidavits  c<iuld  be  read 
afterwards  ajiainst  a  i)arty  because  he  otTered  fhem  in  th(> 
early  stages  of  the  case.  My  own  views  on  this  n»att«'r  run 
stroufily  in  that  line.  I  understand  that  Judge  King  has  no 
decided  view  about  it,  except  that  t'xju-esed  by  him,  namely, 
lluit  it  minht  turn  out,  uimui  further  investigation,  that  these 
ailidavits  were  adnussible.  Where  there  has  been  any  doubt 
(in  an  issue  raised,  we  have  reserved  it,  because  we  are  feel- 
inj;  our  way  to  a  certain  extent.  We  have  been  compelled 
to  reserve  a  decision  ujion  fjrave  mattei's,  and  more  than  that 

oj  under  the  constitution  of  this  commission — as  I  think  counsel 
will  understand — if  eillier  < 'ommissionei'  t'cls  that  he  is  to 
jret  lifilit  from  certain  jii'oof  the  other  Ccmmissioncr  is  not  in  a 
position  to  deny  liim  (he  beuetil  of  lliat  lijrlit.  Tiiat  is  the  posi- 
tion of  things.  1  feel  that  I  ouglil  to  make  these  remarks,  and 
I  address  tliem  to  counsel  to  a  certain  extent.  While  the 
•  '(iMiniissionei's  fet  1  liiat  they  are  bound  to  let  tiiis  evidence  in 
now.  and  I'eserve  it  for  future  consideration,  yet  tlu>  <"om- 
missioners  cannot  tell  how  wide  the  door  thus  opened  will  be 
availed  of  for  the  i>utting  in  of  sjieculative  evidence,  which 

'^^  should  not  be  adduced.  If  the  case  is  opened  to  thes(>  r.iti- 
(lavils  for  one  side,  even  de  bene  esse,  it  is  o])en  for  both 
sides.  I  mak>'  tliese  remaiks  rather  for  the  consideration 
of  counsel,  because  counsel  on  both  sides  must  know,  of  how 
little  value  this  class  of  evidence  is,  when  we  have  witnesses 
here  to  ])rove  jiractically  the  sanu'  issues.  I  do  it  with  a 
\U'\\  of  urging  <-ounsel  to  consult  among  th-mselves,  and  if 
this  kind  of  evidence  is  to  go  in,  to  relieve  the  rommisioners 
from  as  much  of  it  as  jiossible. 

5'J  .Mr.  Peters :--I  shall  give  to  .Mr.  Dickinson  the  citations 
which  I  lu-opose  to  lay  liefore  the  Commissioners.  Tliat  may 
save  a  good  deal  of  troulile,  because  when  he  s<'es  them  he 
may  noi  rai.se  objection  to  them.  I  shall  do  that  this  even- 
ing. 


Tlic  Commissioners  then  rose. 


Ml".  I 


lO 


30 


40 


50 


(X) 


354 

OommiBsioners  uider  the  Oonvention  of  February  8,  1896,  between 
Great  Britaii  and  the  United  States  of  America- 
Chambers  of  the  Legislative  Assembly, 

At  Victoria,  December  10,  1896. 

At  lO:.'?)   the  Coininissioiu'rs  took  their  seats. 

Ml'.  P'ters: — May  it  pleaso  your  Hononrs;  there  is  a  wit- 
ness '.ctiiied  Cotsford  who  lias  l)eeii  luentioned  several  times 
ill  lie  course  of  tliese  i»roeeedinjj;a  I  understand  tliat  Mr. 
'  otsford  is  at  some  distant  jtlace  l)ut  we  are  in  lio]ies  to  lie 
alile  to  tfet  him.  Tliere  is  a  possibility  of  his  lieiiifj  obtained, 
and  before  closinj;  this  case  1  wish  to  reserve  my  rifjht  to  ex- 
iiiiiiie  him  if  we  can  get  him. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'liited  Slates: — On 
what  point  do  you  wish  to  take  his  testimony,  Mr.  Peters? 

Mr.  Peters: — He  was  one  of  the  hunters  employed  and  I 
wish  to  examine  him  In  rejiard  to  his  experience  as  a  hunter; 
to  show  the  (|iiaiitity  of  seals  iMtually  around  when  the  '<'aro- 
lena"  was  seized,  and  also  t'le  aiialtility  of  the  crew  as  to 
huntin<j:.  He  is  the  onlv  one  of  them  we  liave  been  alile  to 
get  at. 

The  ("(mimissioner  on  the  part  of  the  Inited  Htales: — You 
will  limit  his  examination  to  these  points. 

Jlr.  Peters: — Oh,  yes. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — We  have  lieen  searching  for  Mi:  Cotsford 
and  some  otheis  of  the  persons  named,  .•iiid  wc  think  we  will 
be  alile  to  get  Mr.  < 'otsford  for  you. 

Mr.  Peters: — We  think  so.  too,  Imt  1!  \ii;  can  get  him  it 
would  save  us  thi'  trouble.  We  have  ime  other  witness  to 
call,  as  to  the  rate  of  interi'st,  and  he  is  on  his  way  here. 

The  Conimissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  Htates: — Is 
that  all  you  have,  .Mr.  Peters? 

Mr.  Peters: — That  is  all  we  have,  with  the  excejition  <if 
these  documents  we  have  discussed  so  iimk'Ii  and  of  which 
I  have  ju-epared  a  list  which  I  will  give  to  my  learned  friend 
in  a  few  moments.  The  ((uestion  as  to  these  might  stam'  lat- 
er until  perhaps  we  can  come  to  i'li  arrangeini-nt,  or  the  Com 
misi^imiers  pi'i-hajis  might  come  to  a  coiiclusinn  ujion  it. 

The  < 'ommissi(nier  on  the  jiart  of  the  railed  States: — I  un 
derstand  we  have  come  to  the  conclusion  that  they  are  to  go 
in  de  bene  esse.  Of  course  there  may  be  some  sifting  out; 
but  I  mean  so  far  as  they  are  covered  by  the  ruling  yesterday. 

.Mr.  Peters: — 1  have  given  to  my  learned  fi'ieiid  the  list,  ami 
I  think  my  learned  asociate  understands  that  they  are  to  go 
in. 

The  Coinmissionei-  on  tiie  jiail  of  Her  .Majesty :— Oh.  yes; 
then  if  lie  has  any  objection  to  ;iny  part,  he  can  let  us  know 
perhaps.  II  could  be  laid  without  any  further  stalemeiit  be 
foi'e  the  (.'ominisiouers.  The  pulling  in  o!'  these  atTidavits 
ap|»Iies  as  much  to  all  the  cases  for  l.'^Sfj  as  to  the  case  of 
t'.e  "Carolena."' 

The  ("(Miimiswioner  on  the  part  of  the  'nited  Slates: — We 
understand  vour  witness  will  be  here  in  a  few  moments,  .Mr. 
Peters? 


.Mr.  Peters:  —  ^■es.   vour  Honour. 

.Mr.  IJodsvell:  Willi  rclVrencc  to  this  iibslract  referring  In 
Ihe  calch  of  III"  ".MarN  Klleii."  '  na\e  shown  it  to  Mr.  l.an 
hing  and  lie  lia.s  siiggeslcd  some  ilianges  in  Ihe  fovm.    That 


355 

ciniiiot,  pi'i'liiipH,  l)f  put   ill  this  iiioiiiin^  but   will  bo  Monie 
tiiiR'  during  tlio  day. 

Tlu>  ('oinuiisiom'r  on  the  part  of  the  Uuitod  States: — Any 
tiuio.      It  is  a  iiKTi'  luatttT  of  convi'nieni'e  any  way. 

Mr.  IVtei'H: — Tlu-ro  is  oiu'  docuiucnt  more  wliirh  I  would 
like  to  rt'tVr  to  and  ]>ut  in  as  ovidcncc.  It  is  contained  in  a 
icptut  of  the  t'oiu'iiiltcc  <if  .Mcicliant  Marine  and  Fisheries 
in  the  House  of  Ke'/iescntatives  in  the  matter  of  investifja- 
'0  lion  <tf  the  fur  seals  nnJ  other  lishi'iies  of  Alaska,  published 
liy  the  I'nited  States  !i(i  •ernnieiit.  The  diicunient  I  shall  re- 
fei'  to  is  the  testimony  of  C'apt.  Shepherd,  the  seiziiifj  offleer, 
whith  is  eontained  on  pafjis  2'J!)  and  2.'t(). 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Iler  Majesty: — The  seiz- 
ini!;  officer  of  what? 

Mr.  IVters:— The  Captain  of  the  "Richard  Hush."  Pos- 
sibly this  may  stand  in  the  same  way  as  the  other  documents, 
and  I  will  show  it  to  mv  learned  friend. 


20 


There  is  one  other  report  I  wish  to  refer  to,  but  I  will  give 
a  list  of  them  and  they  can  be  put  in  afterwards. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Actually  this  list  was  furnished  us  but 
we  have  not  had  an  opportunity  of  examining  it.  We  do  not 
know  how  far  it  will  go  nor  what  there  may  be  in  it  that 
we  will  have  to  meet  on  the  part  of  the  United  States. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  jiart  of  the  United  States: — I 
understand  the  list  wil  be  furnished? 

Mr.  Peters: — Now. 


' 

" 

'\ 

1 

h 

4 

I 

l\ 

'i 
1' 

ml 


iKm 


BWM 


40 


Teicival  Hideout  ISrown  was  ciilled  as  a  witness  (Ui  the  part 
of  (ileal  Uritain  and  duly  sworn. 

K.xainiiiation   bv   .Mi'.   IJodwel  : 


Q.— Vou  are  a  resident  of  N'ict'iia,  Mr.  Urown?  A. — Ye.s, 
sir. 

^i.—  .\nd  have  bct'ii  siicli  for  a  great  number  of  rears?  A. 
Since  1S72. 

^i- — What  is  your  f)osilioii,  or  occupation?  A. — At  ju'e- 
sciit  I  am  miiiuiger  of  Hie  Victoria  Mrancli  of  the  Itritisli  Col- 
miibia  Land  and  Invcslmcnl  Agency. 

(i. — What  busines  does  that   iuslitiitioii  car'ry  on?       A. — 
Lemling  money. 
5*^'       H- — ^'oiir  business  is  an  extensive  one?       .\. —  Vcs,  sir,  the 
laigcsl   linanc;al  insliiiilion  in  the  counti-y. 

(i.— Were  you  here  in   1S^<(;?     A. —   Yes. 

^l- — Engaged  in  business?  A. —  In  the  same  class  of  busi- 
ness. 

Q. — In  what  <om|)aiiy?       .V. — This  same  company. 

(i.- Wiic  thev  milking  loans  in  Ibilish  Coliiinliia  then? 
A.— Yes. 

(i  -  And  in  \  idoria?  .\. — In  all  parts  of  P.ritish  (^olum- 
iiia. 

(i. — Wlial  tlillVrenl  classes  of  loans  did  lliey  make?  .\. — • 
.Ml  kinds,  promissory  noles,  niorlgages.  all   kinds    of    loans. 

Q— t»n  what  leriiis  of  paymenl.  as  to  time?  .V. — Well, 
"11  Hie  inorlgiigeK.  there  were  \e'\  few  exceeding  one  year, 
:iiid  on  promissory  notes  racly  exceeding  llirce  monllis. 

<i.— Kid  you  say  liial  ilie  iMin  of  iJiymeiil  of  the  moil- 
yages  liirelv  exreedt  d  olii'  year?  .\. —  IJlirely  exceeded  one 
ve.'ir 


I'U 


)»llMt 


(i. — Was  tliiii;  (1k'  iihuuI  course  of  Imsimss  ill  that  liiiii'? 
A. — I  (liiiik  so.      It  was  tlie  I'stablislu-d  rule  with  us. 

ti. — The  term  of  pa^mieiit  was  usually  one  ,vear?  A. — On 
iuor(  gajjes   yes. 

(i- — Were  these  tonus  extended  at  all?  A. — Oh,  yes, 
many  of  these  iiiortffafjes  ran  on  for  a  number  of  years." 

Q.— Yon  refer  then  to  the  form  of  mort^'ajje?  A. — The 
form  of  mortfiiif-e. 

Q. — The  covenant  for  payment  would  he  at  the  expiration 
10    of  one  year?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — What  was  the  ordinary  i-ate  of  interest  on  a  loan  se- 
eured  upon  first  mort<:a>;e  on  real  <'state  in  the  years  1SS(5  and 
1SS7?  A. — On  city  projjeriy  or  on  farm  land?  There  is  a 
ditference  in  the  rates. 

(.). — (live  us  both?  A. — Well,  on  a  ptod  loan  in  N'ictoria 
or  Xew  Westminster  (he  first  mortfrape  would  be  8  i)er  cent, 
and  on  farm  loans  it  would  vary  from  s  per  cent,  to  1(1  per 
tent. 

Q. — Did  you  loan  money  on  personal  security  without  the 
20   collateral  of  rcii!  estate?      A. — Yes. 

Q.— At  that  (ime?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — What  was  (he  usual  rate  of  interest  upon  a  loan  to  a 
man  of  ordinary  <redit  on  his  luMsonal  n(»te?  A. — Thr-  ordi 
nary  rate? 

(i.— Yes.      A.— At  what  time? 

(i. — In  lS,'^(i  or  in  1SS7?  A. — It  would  not  be  under  one  jter 
cent.  i)er  month.      Twelve  jter  rent,  per  annum. 

Q. —  Have  these  rates  conlinued  down  to  the  present  (ime? 
A. — On  (he  promissoi-y  notes. 
30  Q. — What  is  (he  rate  at  i)resen(  for  loans  of  the  class  I 
have  mentioned,  namely  secni-ity  by  nKU'tgafje  on  real  estate? 
A. — Well  the  rates  there  have  dropjted  a  littl(>  during  the  last 
three  years. 

Q.— To  what  extent  have  they  dropjied  in  the  last  three 
years?  A. — I'robably  they  have  dropped  (o  six  and  one-half 
pel'  cent  on  first  class  security  on  (rood  mortjjafrc  and  a  large 
marjjrin.  There  was  probably  one  and  one  lialf  i)er  cent,  re- 
duction. 

(i. —  Tliat  has  only  taken  jdace  within  the  last  few  years? 
\. — Within  the  last  rliree  or  four  years. 

Q. — Let  me  put  a  case  to  you.  Supose  you  had  a  loan 
oil'ered  to  you  o\\  city  )»roper(y,  and  supixtse  you  had  the 
cash  valii!'ti(m  of  your  valuator,  and  the  Jiorrower  wished  to 
j;et  two  thirds  of  (he  valuation  by  way  of  an  advance,  what 
would  be  the  ordinary  rate  of  interest?      A. — .\t  what  time? 

(.}. — Now?  A. — Oil.  well,  our  r.ite  would  not  be  under  eijiht 
jter  cent. 

When   I   «ay  (lie  rate  has  dropited  to  six  and  one  half  ])i*r 
I'ent..  that  is  for  tirst   ilass  Hccui'ity. 
50       ii. — Do  you  still  loan  money  on  (hat  class  of  security?  A. — 
Oh.  ves. 

0— To  anv  ex(en(  >       A.— Yes 

Q. — I  do  no(  icmember  whediei'  I  asked  yon  abou(  (lie  I'atc 
(in  promissory  notes,  a  jiersonal  loan  unsecured  by  real  estate 
at  iireseiit?       A. — It  would  not  be  under  12  |)er  cent. 

(i.--N'ow,  did  you  know  Mr.  Miinsie  in  (hese  years.  188(»  and 
ISS".       A.^Yes,  I  have  known  him  many  years. 

(-1. — l>id  you  know  his  tiniiuvv.il  sl:imliii;i','      A. —  U'ell.  pel- 
sonally,  I  lu'vv  ,)^\v:i\s  iniisiiJ/Tcd  his  financial  stiinfliufi  very 
60    b'liili. 

(2.— WIci!  !  »\aiii  1(1  ask  you  is  (liis-  What  is  (he  rale 
\vliicli  a  man  .tl'  liis  financial  s(andinu  at  lliat  time  would 
have  to  pay  foi-  a  lojin  of  money  unsecured  b\  real  estate 
nKPrlfjfaji'e.  or  other  lollaleral  security? 

.Mr.  IHckinsdii:  -Ol'  itiiirse  that  would  not  be  the  rule  of 
damages.       If  llie  rule  of  damages  is  interest,  I  submit,  may 


40 


ID 


20 


357 

it  please  .vonr  Honours,  tliat  the  staiidiiif;  of  a  iiii'.ii  wht'lhiT 
he  is  worthless  or  not,  eiits  no  fiffure. 

Mr.  Itodwel': — What  I  want  to  prove  by  this  witness  \h: 
I  do  not  Icnow  whetluT  I  hiid  my  foundation  exactly  or  not — 
wliat  would  be  the  rate  of  interest  a  man  of  his  financial 
slandiiifj — not  (his  particular  individual  but  a  man  of  his 
fieneial  repute  and  financial  standinjj; — what  wouhl  l)e  the 
iiite  of  interest  he  would  have  to  pay  if  he  wanted  to  tfet 
money  to  supply  the  jdacv  of  the  loss  which  had  occurred  to 
him  by  reason  of  this  seizure? 

The  ("onimissioiier  on  the  part  of  the  T'nil''d  States: — Why 
do  you  not  put  it  ir.  a  general  way?  Tha.  would  meet  the 
objection  of  the  '.ounsel  of  the  I'nited  States. 

Jfr.  r.odwell: — 1  would,  if  I  knew  exactly  what  the  point 
raised  was. 

Jlr.  Dickinson: — The  point  is,  that  if  you  are  entitled  to 
interest  at  all — and  we  will  have  sonvethinf;  to  say  tui  that 
later — then  the  way  to  provt>  interest  is  to  jtrove  the  current 
rat(!.  You  cannot  ;;«)  into  sjiecifie  instances  and  say  what 
one  man  would  i)ay  and  what  another  would  pay.  You 
have  to  take  the  fact  as  concluded,  that  the  nmn  for  whom 
you  seek  dannig»'S  by  way  of  interest  could  have  borrow«'d  tli<> 
mimey.  You  cannot  ro  into  the  s|)ecia!  circumstances  and 
say  tJiat  he  was  of  such  linancial  stan<liiig  that  he  could  not 
borrow  the  mon(>y  at  five  per  cent.,  and  that  because  of  his 
financial  standing  he  had  io  pay  twelve  ]»er  cent.,  neither  can 
you  show  that  because  of  his  good  financial  standing  he  got 
llie  money  cheaper. 

Mr.  Bodwel): — That  is  exactly  the  position  that  I  thought 
I  ]ilaced  myself  in.  I  wish  (o  prove  generally  what  class  of 
individuals  Mr.  Munsie  belongs  to.  and  here  is  a  witness  who 
liiiows:  He  knows  the  standing  which  Mi-.  Munsie  had  in 
financial  circles.  "^J'lien  tlie  tpiestion  I  proposed  tft  ask  was: 
What  a  man  of  that  financial  standing  would  have  to  i)ay  in 
interest  for  an  advance  of  moncA  ? 

Mr.  Dickinson  — That  we  submit  is  immaterial. 

Mr.  Hodwell: — If  i]ie  ('onimissioners  think  that  (pu'sfion 
should  not  be  answered.  I  will  ask  another. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — You  had 
Ix'fter  put  if  in  a  general  way  I  think.  It  is  not  necessary 
for  you  Io  sliow  that  Mr.  .Munsie  was  in  good  financial  stand- 
ing and  Dial  he  would  get  a  lower  rale  of  interest  than  one 
50  wliose  standing  was  not  so  irood.  When  yon  prove  that  he 
was  of  excelleni  financial  standing  you  bring  him  up  Io  I  he 
average  or  abovi'  it.  and  you  bring  him  into  the  class  of  per- 
sons who  could  borrow  at  current  rales.  If  yon  get  the  cur- 
lent  rates,  you  would  (troliably  ger  all  you  are  entillcd  Io. 

K.xaniiimtion   resuuu'd  bv  Mr.  Hodwell- 


30 


40 


(To  witness.)  Q.--What  was  ilic  current  rale  of  interest 
al  whicli  a  man  of  good  financial  slanding  could  bori'ow 
'10  niiuiev  and  on  personal  s<'iurily.  in  ISSli  and  1SS7.  wilhoiit 
< ollaleral?       .V. —  It   would  nol   be  under  twelve  jier  ceul. 

Q. — And  that  rate  conlinued  down  to  what  time?  .\. — It 
is  tli(>  prevailing  rate  to  day. 

f'ross-examinatioTj  l>y  Mr.  Dickinson* 

(i— Doynu  mean  if  is  ihe  prevailing  rnte  wilh  yen?  .\. — 
Willi  our  company. 


Md'ir   , 


i;  1 


358 

Q— Do  yon  incau  it  is  llio  pr«'vailii)},'  i-att"  in  the  bniilcM  of 
(h'liosit?    A. — 1  lliiiik  possibly  llu'ir  riitc  in  low«'r. 

ti. — You  (hiiil<  it  jtossiblt'  that  in  l.SSU  tlio  rate  was  lower 
in  (he  ban];s  of  (h'poHit,  was  it  not?  A. — It  may  have  bi'cn  a 
Hiiade  lower. 

Q- — Von  are  not  familiar  with  anything  except  the  rates 
charKcd  by  your  own  institution?  A.— Not  very  familiar, 
no. 

Q. — And  your  institution  was  a  land  investment  agoney? 
I  o   A . — Yes. 

(2-— And  <l,artered  as  such,  and  vou  receive  no  deposits? 
A.— We  do 

Q. — IJo  you  take  deposits  in  the  savings  department?  A. — 
Yes. 

Q. — You  do  not  take  connuercial  dejiosits?      A. — No. 

Q.— In  Victoria,  in  ISH*!.  ISS7  and  ISSS,  money  was  (jnile 
largely  invested  in  tlie  sealing  industry  was  it  not?  A. — 
I  can  hardly  speak  on  that  (iu(>stion. 

Q. — It  was  on>'  of  the  ]uincipal  ind'istri<'9  of  Victoria?  A. 
^'^  — I  am  aware  there  was  a  very  large  amount  of  money  in- 
vested in  it. 

Q. — And  sales  were  made  of  the  catch  m  the  Fall?  A. — 
I  presume  so.but  our  business  did  not  bring  us  in  touch  with 
that  particular  branch. 

Q. — You  never  vere  in  touch  with  that  ])artl<Milar  branch 
of  business?      A. — Thev  did  that  business  in  other  banks. 


30 


40 


50 


60 


Examination  of  witness  closed. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  Stales: — T 
understand  Mr.  PettM-s,  that  you  have  now  closed  your  side  of 
the  case,  except  as  to  these  matters  to  which  you  have  vo 
f erred. 

Mr.  Peters: — Yes,  your  flononr. 

('ommissi<mer  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Mr.  Dick- 
inson, when  will  you  l)e  able  to  go  on  with  your  side  of  the 
case? 

Mr.  Dickinsou: — We  had  no  advice  until  last  night  that 
the  probabilities  were  that  my  learned  friends  would  close 
this  morning,  and  so  we  would  probably  economize  time  if  we 
looked  into  the  matter  and  determined  as  to  what  we  wotild 
answer  in  their  case,  and  esju'cially  what  we  would  not  answ- 
er. For  this  purpose,  so  far  as  the  session  in  Victoria  is  con- 
cerned, and  especially  as  we  are  dependent  upon  such  witnes 
h-es  here  as  we  can  get,  ne  would  like  a  little  tinu'  to  look 
over  the  matter.  .,,4 

The  Commissioner  on  the  j>ai't  oj"  Tier  Afajesty: — Do  you 
mean,  before  saying  what  time  you  would  need  for  adjourn 
nient? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Oil,  no.  We  would  not  need  longer  than 
a  (hiy,  and  if  your  Honours  prefer  to  restrict  us  to  a  briefer 
time,  we  will  endeavor  to  commence  to-day. 

The  Commissioner  on  tlie  ]iart  of  the  United  States: — We 
have  to  follow  your  judgnient  in  tliis  matter.  Do  you  Ihink 
you  could  resiuue  at  luilf  past  two? 

Mr.  Dickinson; — I  hardly  think  we  could.  Your  Honour. 

The  Commissioner  on  tlu'  part  of  Her  Majesty: — I'elter 
say  in  the  morning. 

Ml'.  Di(kiiison: — Very  well.  Your  Honoiir.  I  could  pro 
<»'ed  now  with  s«»nie  documentary  ])roof  so  as  to  save  time. 


The  t.'ommissiiitK'i'  lui  (he  ]»ai'( 
me  :isk  further,  Mr.  i'elers.  will 


if  the  I'nited  Slates:— D<'l 
i)U  lie  reaily  to  go  on  with 


3S> 

(lie  next  i-asc  as  mww  »»  llie  rniti'd  Htatos  cloHf  their  case. 
harriiifT  .vour  rebuttal  evidence. 

Mf.  J'eters:— AVe  do  not  linow.  Tliere  may  be  lebnllal 
<  vidence. 

Tlie  ConinilHsioner  on  (lie  ]»art  of  (lie  I'nited  States: — Is 
Diere  any  difliculty  in  having  your  witnesHes  in  attendance? 

Mr.   Peters: — We  will   net  all   the   witnesses  we  can,   bat 
10  jasl  at  the  jiresent  time,  not  havinp;  a  clear  idea  as  to  what 
Ihe  nature  of  their  e\idence  may  be.  I  can  hardly  make  a 
statement. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  T'nited  States: — I  do 
not  mean  your  rebuttal  witnesses,  but  the  witnesses  in  the 
next  case. 

Mr.  Peters: — Oh,  yes. 

The  (Jonnnissioner  on  the  part  of  the  T'nitcd  States: — Mr. 
,Q    Dickinson,  you  say  you  have  sonu'  jiroofs  you  can  put  in  now? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Yes,  Your  Honour  and  it  would  save  time 
in  the  nn>rnin};. 


30 


40 


THE  f'.\SE  OF  THE  UNITED  STATES  IX  ANSWER  TO 
THE  CASE  OF  HEK  MAJESTY. 

Mr.  Dickinson; — In  connection  with  what  my  learned  friend 
has  put  in,  I  now  propose  to  read 

Sir  ('.  H.  Tapper:— The  time  to  do  that  was  when  we  put 
ours  in. 

Mr.  Peters: — Mr.  J)ickiiisou,  if  you  will  excuse  me  a  mo- 
ment. Before  my  learned  friend  reads  that.  I  wish  with- 
out arsunu'ut,  to  take  an  objection  to  my  learned  friend  read- 
ing' as  evidence  on  his  own  side,  any  statement  made  in  the 
.\niericiin  case  or  in  the  apjtendix  to  the  American  case.  My 
learned  friend  is  at  liberty,  if  he  can  do  so,  and  as  far  as  I 
iini  concerned,  to  ase  any  jiart  of  the  P.ritish  case  as  against 
('reat  Uritain;  but  1  submit  that  under  no  ruie  of  law  or  evi- 
dence can  he  use  a  statement  nmde  by  the  Americ;;n  (tov- 
erunient  in  supi»ort  of  their  case.  The  statements  he  now 
proposes  to  read  cannot  I  humbly  submit,  be  put  in  for  the 
purjiose  lie  intends  because  it  does  not  in  any  resju-ct  ()ualify 
tile  other  statements.  It  is  a  statement  of  a  distinct  and 
sei»iii;ite  nature,  not  (jualityinfr  what  has  been  already  i)ut  in. 
I  snliinit  that  lie  cannot  put  in  these  sejiiirate  and  distinct 
stiitenienis  of  fiict.  1  do  not  wish  to  arffue  Ihe  jioint  at  any 
jjreat  Icn^rtli.  but  tliitt  is  the  contention  we  make:  If  these 
stateiiienis  nre  evidence  asjainst  the  jierson  or  (iovernment 
who  makes  them,  they  are  not  evidence  in  favour  of  that  per- 
son or  that  (iovernment. 

The  0(namissi(mer  on  the  part  of  the  t'nited  States: — 1  un- 
derstand it  is  all  one  caa>  filed  at  the  same  time  with  (he 
Co  iii'liitrators,  was  it  not? 

'!r.  Dickins,iii: — Yes,  Your  Honour. 

Tl,  ("(immissionei-  on  tlie  jiart  of  the  I'liited  States: — All 
tiled  ;,'  one  iime  and  in  one  statement. 

.Mr.  \  .  ters: — And  coniaiiis  many  different  statements  of 
fact,  soiii.  of  whi(  h  are  niiilerlal  here,  and  some  of  which  arc 
not  material. 


50 


A-vl 


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20 


360 

Tho  C'oiiiiiiiNsioiicr  on  tlw  part  of  tlic  I'^nitcd  StatcH; — Wv 
nri"  not  talking  about  those  lliat  arc  not  material. 

ft[i'.  Petei's: — For  the  sake  of  argument  for  instanee.  there 
was  no  liarin  in  referring  to  this  parliciihir  (piotation  that 
ui,v  learned  friend  is  about  to  read.  Ah  i)art  of  our  ease  we 
put  in  certain  statements  in  their  cas<',  to  sliow  lliat  there 
was  a  hwfH'  number  of  seals  in  Hehriuf;  Sea.  That  is  the 
point  of  the  ease  of  the  I'nitc'd  States  whieh  makes  another 
statement  alfoRether,  and  that  is  that  there  were  certain  dif 
ficulties  sometimes  in  killing  these  seals.  That  is  a  separate 
and  distinct  fact.  We  ])ut  it  in  for  the  purpose  of  sliowinj; 
such  and  such  n  state  of  facts,  and  m,v  learned  friend  puts  in 
anotlier  state  of  facts  altofjether. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  j)art  of  the  Tnited  States: — 1  am 
free  to  say  Mr.  I'eteis  that  I  j^ave  this  full  consideialion,  and 
to  my  mind  there  is  no  i)art  of  that  case  which  is  material  to 
the  issiu's  here.  Your  i»roi)osition  is,  Mr.  Peters,  that  yon 
can  single  out  paiticular  attidavits  from  the  American  cas*- 
and  shut  out  other  altidavits,  i)ut  in  for  the  special  i>ur]»ose  of 
qualifying  the  statements  in  the  aflidavit  you  read  from. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  have  no  objection  to  atlidavits  or  statements 
that  qualify. 

The  (Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States:—!  un- 
derstand that  Mr.  Dickinson  i»roposes  to  read  only  what 
would  qualify. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  know  he  alleges  that  he  jmts  it  in  for  the 
3°   jiurpose  of  (pialifying.       My  view  is  that   whilst   on  the  one 
hand  it  is  ]»ut  in  l)ecause  they  say  it  qualifies 

The  Commissioner  on  the  pait  of  the  Ignited  States: — How 
are  we  going  to  determine  the  manner  in  which  it  qualities 
until  we  hear  it? 

Mr.  Peters: — When  I  put  the  evidc-nce  in  it  ai»l>eai's  to  me 
that  my  learned  friend  should  hav<>  asked  to  put  in  anything 
that  would  (pialify  it. 

40       The  Commissioner  on  the  ])Jirt  of  ITer  Majesty: — 1  think, 
Mr.  Peters,  he  can  do  that,  at  any  time. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  i»art  of  the  T'nited  States: — T 
understand,  Mr.  Peters  that  this  objection  is  taken  by  you  to 
save  your  rights,  more  than  anything  elsi'. 

Mr.  Peters:— That  is  all. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Does  Your  Lordship  care  to  hear  from  me 
on  the  question  in  reply  to  Mr.  I'elers? 


;! 

I' 


50 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — Certainly. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — My  leai'ned  friend  says  we  cannot  put  in 
part  of  the  American  case  as  evidence  in  chief?  I  fully 
agree  in  that  and  from  fhe  beginning  to  the  end  of  this  case 
I  will  not  be  be.ird  o})p()sing  the  contention  that  we  cannot 
put  in  any  part  of  a  statement  made  by  us  or  in  our  behalf  as 
evideme  in  chief  for  the  United  States.  Neither  will  1  be 
heard  to  ask  to  insert  any  part  of  the  Hrilish  case  relating  to 
^  one  sutiject,  unless  1  jmt  in  all  that  bears  on  that  subject  in 
the  Hritish  case;  under  the  rule  indicated  by  the  learned 
Commissioners,  which  as  1  understand  it  is  that  th(>  matter 
can  go  in  to  be  reserved  for  iirgument  later. 

Hut  let  us  see  on  this  jxiint,  and  then  your  ITonotirs  will  see 
tlie  comj)(^1encv  of  the  testimony  I  pro])ose  to  read — compi!- 
ent  if  the  testimony  offered  by  my  fiiend  from  the  Ameri- 
can rase  was  competent.  Ife  offered  it  to  show  that  seals 
were  there,  on  that   part  of  his  case  in  which  lie  sought  to 


lo 


40 


50 


r.0 


361 

hIiow  the  pmbnbli'  Cittili.  lie  offered  lli«'  pai".  of  the  Am- 
erican ciiMe,  Hluiwiiig  where  tlie  Healw  wi're,  iih  evidi-iice,  if 
evidence  at  all,  tending;  lo  show  Ihal,  if  wealH  were  t\^^'V^'  )ic 
could  probably  have  (jot  them  with  Iuh  sh}\>,  (lie  "(Jarolena," 
iind  for  no  other  piniioHe.  Now,  to  qnalify  tliat  statement 
in  the  American  case  w«f  show  on  onr  side  (hat  in  th"  samo 
case,  non  constat,  the  seals  were  there,  ji't  there  wore  sncli 
ditticulties  in  the  way  that,  by  the  very  staltMnents  of  tlie 
American  case,  and  referring  to  the  notes,  the  "Carolena" 
could  not  have  caufjht  them,  if  they  were  there,  in  any  such 
(|uantitie8  as  claimed.  Therefore,  it  qualifies  the  statement 
wiiich  my  learned  friend  makes  so  far  as  it  bears  upon  the 
]  i(  liably  catch  directly,  and  I  will  read  from  pa^je  l!tl,  c<»m- 
nienc'inp  at  the  second  para^rajdi,  American  Ueprlnt,  Voliimu 
'2.  I  only  read  what  is  imported  and  read  int<»  the  American 
case,  and  receiv»'s  the  endorsement  of  the  American  \'ise. 
Doctor  Allen  says:  "Those  only  wounded,  whether  fatally  or 
otherwise,  dive  and  escape  capture.  The  less  severely 
wounded  nuiy,  and  in  many  cases  doubtless  do,  recover  fn.iii 
their  wounds,  but  in  the  nature  of  thinps  many  others  must 
die  of  their  injuries.  There  is  a  wid<>  ran};e  of  chances  be 
I  ween  an  instantaneously  fatal,  or  disabling,  shot  and  a  slight 
wound  from  which  the  victim  may  readily  recover,  with  ob- 
viously a  larfje  pro])ortiou  of  them  on  the  fatal  side  of  the 
dividing  line." 

At  page  1!)."?,  same  volume:  "It  is  only  necessary,  in  ord- 
er to  sliow  how  mucli  the  unskillful  out  number  the  skillful 
hunters  to  refer  to  the  agre»'inent  entered  into  by  the  mem- 
bers of  the  Sealers'  /kssociation,  of  Victoria.  British  Colum- 
bia, for  the  season  of  ISJtl  "The  portion  of  the  agreement  re- 
ferring to  this  matter  is  as  follows:  We  also  bind  ourselves 
not  to  take  more  thaii  three  experienced  hunters  in  the  seal- 
ing business  on  each  vessel  represented  by  us,  said  hunters, 
to  be  engaged  at  the  scale  or  lay  adopted  by  this  Association, 
asliereinbefore  j)articularly  described;  and  we  also  agree  that 
all  Ininters  required  in  excess  of  the  three  hunters  above  men- 
tioned for  each  vessel  shall  be  new  men  at  the  business  of  seal 
hunting,  and  shall  be  engaged  at  the  same  scale  or  lay  liere- 
inbefore  mentioned,  and  this  clause  shall  apply  to  all  vessels 
owned  or  controlled  by  tli<;  members  of  this  Association, 
wiiether  clearing  from  the  port  of  Victoria  or  other  ports  in 
<'anada  or  the  Viiited  States,  or  any  i>ort  where  any  vessel 
owned  or  controlled  by  any  members  of  this  Association  may 
be  fitting  out  for  sealing  on  this  coast." 

At  i)age  1!)5  Charles  (.'halall,  a  seal  hunter,  says:  "The 
average  hunter  would  get  one  out  of  every  three  seals  shot;  a 
jioor  liunter,  not  nearly  so  many."  Thomas  (Jibson,  a  seal 
liunter.  or  engaged  in  tlie  sealing  business  since  1H81,  says: 
"An  ordinary  liunter  would  not  get  more  than  one  out  of 
(Very  three  or  four  that  he  kiMed."  Daniel  McLean  states: 
"That  about  one-third  are  talcen."  And  Captain  Martin  Ben- 
son, of  the  sealing  schoner  "James  (i.  Swan,"  says,  about 
si.xty  ]»er  cent,  are  lost.  E.  W.  Soi'on,  mate  of  a  sealing  ves- 
sel in  ISSS,  says:  "We  only  got  about  one  out  of  every  five 
killed."  Thonuis  Brown  (No.  1).  a  b()at  puller  for  three  years, 
states:  "1  don't  think  we  got  more  tlian  one  seal  out  of  six 
that  we  killed."  Caleb  Lindahl,  a  seal  hunter,  says:  "On 
an  average  a  hunter  gets  erne  seal  out  of  four.  I  have  known 
of  poor  liuiiters  losing  nine  out  of  ten."  Henry  Mason,  also 
a  seal  hunter,  says:  "1  do  not  think  they  would  get  more 
flian  one  seal  out  of  every  six  or  seven  tlu-y  shot,  and  some- 
times only  one  out  of  ten." 

Sir  llibberl  Tapper:— Would  you  mind  adding  to  that 
statement  the  four  lines  at  the  loji  of  i)age  1!),5  just  jjreceding 
tllese  wi messes. 


I 


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362 

Mr.  IMrkiiiNoii: — Tlial  Ih  nli'fiul.v  iti  (lie  caHc.  road  liffori-  by 
inc. 

Hir  Hiltbci-t  Tiippcr: — \ol  in  coniMMlioii  willi  thai  jiara- 
Kraph. 

Mr.  DickiiiHon: — I'rctiHcl.v.  in  connection  with  .vonr  tcHti- 
niony;  I  jint  it  in  lu'forc. 

Kir   llihbcrt  Tnpiur: — Wonld  ,vou    iiavc  any  ol>jcction   to 
•  o   reading;  it  aH  introductory  to  tliis  Htatcnicnl? 

The  ('oniniiHsioncr  on  tlio  part  of  llcr  Majesty: — TlicHe  ex 
IractH  were  not  Met  out  in  tliiH  case,  I  su|)poHe,  hut  are  only 
to  be  referred  to,  »h  well  as  those  put  in  by  Mr.  Peters,  by 
words  of  reference. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — They  were  actually  written  out. 

The  Conimissioner  on  the  i»art  of  Her  Majesty: — I  think 
they  should  n<tt  «'ncuniber  the  case. 
20 

Mr.  Dickinson: — They  are  already  in  the  notes,  and  ainon^r 

others  this,  that  Sir  Ilibbert  Tapper  now  asks  nie  to  read. 

The  Coniniissioner  on  the  part  of  ITer  Majesty:— The  eflect 
will  be  to  increase  the  printing  enoiniously. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — 1  liavo  not  the  slightest  objection  to  read- 
in>r  the  lines  reijuested  by  Sir  Ilibbert  Ttipjier.  They  are  as 
follows:  "I'nder  the  circumstances  it  is  most  ditlicult  to 
Hx  the  actual  number  of  seals  destroyed  and  not  secured  by 
30  hunters  nsinj;  tire  arms;  but  it  is  a  conservative  estimate  to 
say  that  such  hunters  losv>  two  out  of  eveiy  three  seals  shot 
b\  them." 

The  Commissioner  on  the  jiart  of  the  United  States: — Thes" 
extracts,  Mr.  Dickinson,  do  yo\i  want  read  into  tlu'  notes,  or 
simply  referred  to  by  the  stenographer? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — They  are  (piit(>  brief,  and  inasmuch  as  the 
other  matter  went  in  I  would  like  to  have  these  ro  in. 


40 


50 


The  Commissioner  on  the  i>art  of  the  ller  Majesty: — I  think 
it  would  be  very  cumbersome  to  do  this.  1  thought  all  along 
that  all  these  extracts,  exicjtt  as  specially  mentioned,  were 
not  to  go  in.  1  tlKtught  those  were  read  yesterday  so  that 
we  might  know  what  was  being  ottered,  because  w«'  might  re- 
ject it  ultinuitely. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — What  Tiiy  friend  read  from  the  American 
case  did  go  into  the  stenographer's  minutes,  and  will  go  into 
the  i»rinted  matter.  I  therefore  add«'d  my  (lualifying  sen- 
tences, which  were  v«'ry  brief. 

The  Commisisonei'  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — Very  well, 
if  that  is  so  it  is  different  from  what  I  undei'sto(»d  yesterday. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  mu.st  say  that  from  our  point  of  view  these 
extracts,  if  they  are  valuable  at  all — and  they  have  a  certain 
value — should  go  into  the  notes.  They  are  not  long  on  eith- 
er side. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  just  said  to  my  learned  friend  that   I 
(^Q    would  move  to  strike  oit  of  the  notes  anything  but  the  re- 
ferences to  th;>se  ]»ages  on  both  sides. 

The  Commisisoncr  on  the  jtart  of  Her  Majesty: — I  have 
exi)ressed  my  ojiinion.  which  seems,  however,  not  to  have  the 
concurrence  of  anybody  else,  that  I  did  not  think  they  were 
going  into  the  notes,  and  did  not  think  they  ought  to  go  in. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  i>art  of  the  riiit<'d  States: — I  do 
not  think  tlu're  has  been  a  uniform  i>raclice  iibont  it       Some 


lo 


20 


30 


40 


;o 


r,o 


363 

of  tlx-sc  fxIriM'lH  liiivi'  piiic  in(o  llic  iiolt-H  iiimI  (ttliciH  not.      t 
lliiiik  wliJil   Wfii(  in  .vcHtcnIn.v  wuh  mainly  li.v  reft  rcnco. 

Mr.  rdt'iH: — Tlicrc  were  none  ivad  vt'stcrday,  «h  a  nniHcr 
(if  fact,  Vour  Honour. 

Tiio  Coniniissiont'r  on  tlic  i»art  of  the  United  States: — Tlie 
last  lot  went  in  mainly  l)y  icference. 

.Mr.  I'eterM: — Tlnit  wan  before  yoni'  lIononrH  HUKpeHted  it 
slionid  not  he  |iiinlt'd.  What  went  into  tlie  notcH  wan  the 
earlier  pari.      The  matter  was  then  dropped  if  von  remeni- 

l.er. 

The  Conimissioner  on  the  part  of  the  rnit(>d  HtateH: — I 
lliink  what  von  read  from  the  answer  of  the  ('niled  Stales 
went  into  the  notes. 

Mr.  Peters: — And  also  there  are  some  statements.  i>r  some 
oilier  rejiorls,  whieh  oiiftht  to  po  inlo  the  ntttes  in  any  event 
liccanse  they  are  not  easily  fjolten  at. 

Tlie  (Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'niled  Stat«'8- — I 
have  no  donlit  it  is  the  desire  of  both  ConimissionerH  that 
nolhiiiK  should  >;o  I'nio  the  notes  that  ean  |»ossihly  be  kept 
(Mil.  that  is.  tliat  ean  be  found  by  reference.  What  do  coun- 
sel prefer  in  this  mailer?  Is  it  sutTicient  to  refer  to  it  in  the 
sleno{?rapher'8  notes? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  would  rather  have  it  all  po  out.  simply 
making  references;  but  we  disagree  your  Honour. 

The  Tommissioner  on  the  part  of  the  Tnited  States: — My 
learned  associate  refers  it  to  me.  If  (>ither  counsel 
desire  to  have  these  po  into  the  notes,  my  own  inclination 
would  be  to  yield  to  tlieir  desire;  but  the  jjenoral  propramme 
marked  out  yesterday,  when  it  was  found  that  w<'  all  had  a 
coi)y  of  this  American  Re]»rint.  was  that  whatever  went  in 
from  this  Rei)rint  should  be  by  reference.  As  a  part  of  this 
matter  has  pon<?  into  the  notes  already.  ])erhap8  the  balanct 
had  better  po  in,  with  the  nnderstandinp  that  hereafter  all 
references  to  tlie  I{e])rint  shall  be  merely  by  reference. 

Mr.  I'eters: — As  a  matter  of  fact  it  is  not  so  easy  to  p<'t  coj*- 
icH  of  this  Ue-jirint  as  the  court  would  think.  We  cannot 
pet  enonph  copiis  for  all  the  counsel  enpaped  here,  if  we  are 
workinp  at  difl'erent  places. 

The  rommissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — We 
will  lt>t  the  next  case  lake  care  of  itself.  My  learned  as- 
sociale  refers  it  to  me.  and  at  your  nMpiest  I  instruct  the 
slen()pra|)her  to  run  this  into  the  notes.  What  you  read  from 
Ihe  answer  of  |]ie  I'nited  States  went  into  the  notes,  did  it 
not.  Mr.  Peters? 

Ml'.  I'eters: — That  went  into  the  notes  as  I  understand. 

Tlie  t'ommisioner  on  the  part  of  tli(>  United  States: — Of 
course  counsel  will  understand  that  the  rommissioners  desiie 
lo  avoid  encnniberinp  the  notes  more  than  is  absolutely  neces- 
sary; bat  with  the  consent  of  my  learned  associate  we  will 
If'l  tliis  po  in — extracts  on  both  sides,  exhibits  and  every- 


»'    »        1111  n       fi^\r       111 (-j\  ii«i\ir>       \fli        tt\ti  tv       .-'n»\i-"»       v.-»»ii»^i«»'       i«ii\a       *     i^.^i 

lliinp  else — and  nnet  the  next  case  underslandinply.  Mr. 
Peleis.  I  did  not  make  any  ol)servati(Mi  yesterday,  neither 
did  my  a.ssociate.  witli  reference  to  these  certificates  on  theso 
charts,  of  which  three  or  four  were  ])iinted  in  yesterday's 
notes,  because  I  thoupht  i>ossibly  there  mipht  be  scmiethinp 
in  them  yon  considered  valuable. 

Mr.  IVters:— I  simply  read  the  cerlifi/ate  to  show  that  i.  is 
an  anlhenlic  document. 


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The  roii'.iuiHNioiH'r  dii  the  pjirt  of  tlu'  I'liiti'tl  Stah-H: — In 
nil  niHCH  of  tluit  Hort  jh  it  not  lH-tt«>r  to  hIiow  ihiihth  to  «-oun- 
Hcl  on  tin  otlu'i-  Hide  and  ask  tliini  if  tlM-,v  (]«'n,v  tlit-ir  autlioi- 
it.v  inutt-ad  of  nsidint;  tin*  (-('ftiliratcM. 

Mr.  DickinHon: — KHptM-ially  aH  we  do  not  ohj«'rt  on  that 
gronnd  at  all. 

The  ConuniHHionor  on  tho  ]uirt  of  tlu>  I'nitcd  Ktatt'x: — How- 
(>V(>i',  aH  tlu>Mi'  are  in  tlu>  i-e<-oi-d,  p(>flia|m  tliey  liad  better 
stay. 

Mr.  DiekinHon: — I  now  desire  to  olTer  tlie  eitlzenHhip  ))aiH'rH 
of  John  Andrew  lieelitel,  wher<>in  he  renouneeH  IiIh  eiti/.en- 
Hhip  to  tlie  I'nited  States  and  beeonies  a  HritiHli  Hnbjeet. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  would  like  to  ask  my  learned  friend  to  state 
what  possible  relevance  this  ean  have. 

Mr.  Diekinson: — Maybe  my  friend  will  admit  that  he  w  !8 
formerly  a   United  States  citizen,  and  became  a  subject  of 
20  (ireat  Britain  at  this  time. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  mak«'  no  admission  whatever.  On  this 
)H>int  I  have  nothing  to  admit.  I  nmke  no  admission,  and 
distinctly  so  state;  but  at  the  prei44>nt  time  here  is  a  docu- 
ment put  in  which  shows  that  at  a  certain  dat(>  he  became  a 
subject  of  (fivat  Itritain.  I  cannot  exactly  see  what  that 
has  to  do  with  the  ('ase,  at  the  i»resent  time  at  all  events. 

The  ('onimissioner  on   the  part   of   Her  Majesty: — I    pre- 
sume  Mr.  Dickinson  would  seek  to  conne«*t  it  afterwards  witli 
'     some  nmterial  rch'vant  evidence. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  am  perfectly  willing;  to  state  my  r»'asous 
for  olTerinu  it. 

Mr.  Peters: — If  my  learned  friend  puts  this  in  lu'  does  so 
because  ir  contains  a  recital  that  this  man  was  formerlv  of 
the  United  States. 


40 


The  ('(miniissicmer  on  the  part  of  the  Uniti'd  States: — Is  it 
signed  by  him? 

Mr.  Peters: — It  is  signed  by  the  repistrar  of  the  court. 

The  t'Omniisioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'niti'd  States: — Does 
it  puritort  to  contain  a  statement  by  him  that  he  was  former- 
lv a  citizen  of  the  United  States. 


Mr.  Peters: — It  contains  thn'e  docuin<>nts,  tlrst 
dnvit . 


nn     nfli 


The  ronnnisitmer  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Will 
50    yon  kindly  pass  it  to  the  <'ommission*>rs  to  save  all  this  Koinp 
into  tilt  notes.      (D«»cnment  passed  np.) 

Mr.  Dickinson; — I  do  not  suppose  my  h-arued  friend  ob- 
jects on  any  technical  fironnd.  lie  objects  substantially  to 
my  showing  that  Hechtel  was  a  citizen  of  the  United  Slates 
and  became  a  subject  of  (ireat  Itritain. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  certainly  will  raise  that  objection  when  we 
come  to  it.  This  is  a  docunuMit  purjiortin);  to  show  that  he 
60  became  a  subject  of  (ireat  Itritain,  and  I  object  to  it  Is-iuf;' 
put  in  merely  because  then*  luip|M'ns  to  be  a  recital  in  it  that 
he  was  f(n*merly  of  the  I'niti'd  States.  That  is  no  evideni-c 
that  he  was  formerly  a  citizen  of  the  United  States. 

The  ('(miniissi(mer  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — You 
object  to  it  on  the  ground  that  it  does  not  tend  to  prove  that 
he  was  ever  a  citiz  :]  of  the  I'nited  States — on  the  ground  tliat 
assuming  that  the  United  States  nniy  prove  that  he  was  a 


365 


lO 


<'ili%«'ii  of  tlu>  I'liiti'd  StiitcH,  thill  tlii^  dufu  not  tend  to  jm-ovc 
lluit  fart? 

Mr.  I't'tei'H: — It  Ih  iiTflt'vant,  niul  an  to  IiIh  iN'iiiK  a  citizt'ii 
of  tlu'  rnltcHl  StatcB  that  is  a  matter  wiiich  must  Ik*  provt'd 
in  some  oth«'i'  way; 

Mr.  IN't«'f8: — It  appi'arH  to  nu'  that  my  h>aiii«'d  fHcnd  pu.' 
|tot«>ly  kept  away  fiam  aRkinj;  th*>  )pi«>Htion  wlietlicr  or  not 
he  waH  a  rltizen  of  the  I'nited  Htateo. 

Mr.  IMcklnson. — It  in  material  to  nu  to  tlx  the  date  when  he 
iiecnme  a  eiti/en  of  (ireat  Iti'itain,  your  Honour,  and  the  doen- 
iiient  Ih  in  the  UHual  form  with  whicli  the  eiti/.enHhip,  or  al- 
le;;iance  of  tlie  citizen  ]Mir])OHinK  to  be  naturalized  Im  recited. 
Tlie  country  from  which  he  couu'h,  of  wlii«-h  he  was  formerly 
a  Huliject,  and  which  lu>  ri>n«Miiice8  in  IiIh  oath,  \»  the  country 
named  in  th(>  d:icunu-nt. 

Tlie  CommiKHioner  on  llu>  part  of  tlu'l'niled  HtatcH: — I  wnH 
20  looking  to  see  if  there  was  not  a  renunciation.  Yes;  there 
is  a  t;eneral  renunciatitm,  not  like  our  oath.  1  understand, 
.Mr.  IMckinson,  that  you  expect  to  make  it  a  part  of  your  ease 
to  show  t«i  the  court  that  it  is  niat«>rial  for  you  to  know  when 
he  became  a  citizen  of  (ireat  Britain. 

Mr.  IMckiiiHon: — Yes.  y<nir  Honour,  in  connection  with  the 
teslimony  that  he  was  a  citizen  of  the  United  Htates  up  to 
lliat  time. 

The  t'oiumissloner  on  the  part  of  the  United  Htates: — I 
30  ihoiiKlit  he  so  testified  but  tlu'  couns<>l  for  (ireat  Itritain  say 
lie  did  not       This  pap«>r  has  no  tendency  to  show  that  he  was 
a  citizen  of  the  I'liited  States. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Kx'-ept  the  recitation,  your  Honour,  of  his 
former  alle};iance  to  the  Uiiited  States  of  America. 

Mr.  Peters: — That  is  only  in  the  Hcfjistrar's  certificate,  and 
docs  not  state  that  he  was  a  citizen  or  anything  else. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  jmrt  of  tlie  United  States: — It 
40  Himply  stati'B  that  he  was  a  resident  of  the  United  States,  not 
a  citizen. 

Mr.  IMckinson: — It  lecites  the  country  from  which  he  comes 
but  does  not  state  the  citizenship. 

Tile  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — He 
renounces  allegiance  to  the  foreign  state  of  whi«-h  he  was  ti 
subject,  but  it  nowhere  slates  the  former  state  of  which  he 
was  a  subj«'ct. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — The  Uritish  form  does  not,  y«»ur  Honour. 
We  desire  to  tlx  the  dale  at  which  he  be«anie  a  Hritish  subject 
and  tliat  is  one  sle|t  in  our  case. 

Tlie  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — My 
own  opinion  is  that  you  are  entitled  to  fix  that  date. 

Mr.  I'eters: — We  object  to  that  document  being  used  as 
iiiiy  proof  wliati>ver  of  the  correctness  of  the  statements  eou- 
lained  in  any  one  of  those  docuni(>nts. 

Tlie  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — 80 
far  as  I  am  coiicerred  I  <lo  not  know  how  my  learned  as- 
soi'itile  stands — I  see  nothing  in  tliis  pap<'r  which  tends  to 
sliow  lliat  he  was  a  «itizen  of  the  United  States;  but  there 
may  be  some  evidence  given  in  connection  with  it. 

Mr.  Ueters: — We  also  wisli  to  be  understood  at  the  very 
imtMel  !is  objecting  10  anv  evideticc  with  regard  to  the  nu- 
lionality  of  Mr.  Keclitel. 


50 


iiij 


i  V 


p™n^ 


KiMi 


30 


366 

Ml-.  IM«-kiiiHoii: — On  (lint  jHtiiit  we  iiiv  pr<-|>iiri-«1  t(»  hv  liftinl 
now,  )IH  «>tli«'rwim'  wi-  would  take  hoiiu'  tiiiio  loiiioi-row,  or 
next  dii.v,  and  if  .you  (-(tnic  to  that  objcrtiini  we  pruiioiM'  to 
allow  lit'  it  a  i-itiz«>n  of  the  I'niti'd  HtatcM. 

Mr.  IVtt'rs: — I  only  niakt-  tliiu  ohj«'clion  for  the  |Miri)ORi>  of 
fully  rcMcrvin);  ni,v  riKlitH  in  tlu>  nnittcr.  .M.v  undorHtandin}; 
in  t]u>  matter  Ih  that,  tliiH,  hfin^  on«'  of  tlu>  prinri|ml  pointH 
in  tlu'  cam',  will  naturally  Ih>  rcHcrved  for  arKunifnt  after  the 
IQ  faetH  in  «'aeli  cam'  are  fiilly  before  the  <'«Mirt.  I  only  wIhIi 
to  he  under8to«>d  an  rern'rvin^;  our  rlf;ht8  to  raim'  tlie  arp;u- 
nwnt  of  the  nationality  of  .Mr.  Heehtel  in  thiH  cam'  and  that 
of  other  |H>o|)le  in  otiier  cam'H.  From  our  |N)int  of  view  thitj 
is  a  matter  that  eann(»t  be  en<|uired  iiito  lu're  at  ail. 

The  ConimiHsioner  on  tlie  part  of  Her  MajeHty: — On  tht- 
face  of  the  treaty  it  i»  a  matter  that  may  be  enquired  into, 
I  think. 

Mr.  Peters: — To  elucidate  that  jMiint  would  re<iuire  a  v«'ry 
20  t'ouHiderabie  amount  of  arKinuent,  which  we  propom*  to  n'lw 
later  on;  m>  that  1  only  wImIi  to  rem'rv«'  our  rif^hlH.  I  do  not 
think  it  would  be  advimible  to  ar^ne  the  qucHtion  now.  Eh- 
]H'cially  in  thiH  cam',  wliere  the  matter  conieH  up,  iH'rhnp8, 
in  u  form  ditTerent  from  any  other  cam>. 

The  ('(unmiHHi«>ner  on  the  part  of  Iler  .MajeHty: — Of  courne 
we  do  not  want  the  (pieHtion  ar^^ued  now;  it  ntandn  out  upim 
the  face  of  the  Convention  itnelf.  That  Ih  a 
uuitter  to  be  air^ued  on  the  whole  evidence.  Of  courge  the 
queHtion  raiHed  now  in  aH  to  the  re«eption  of  particular  evi- 
dence. Tliis  docunu'ut  tended  to  prove  that  Mr.  Itechtel 
WUH  an  American  citizen,  I  think  it  would  be  relevant  evi- 
dence, becauHe  Mr.  HickiuHou  could  follow  it  up  by  attempt- 
inj?  to  prove  that  h<'  wan  the  real  owner  of  the  venHel.  One 
can  HiH'  without  any  Htretch  of  the  imapnation  that  that 
W(»uld  be  IiIk  courne.  Ah  it  ntandn,  an  my  learned  brother 
sayH,  it  d(M'H  not  appear  to  be  any  evidence  of  that  fact.  If 
otTen'd  merely  as  a  proof  of  the  time  .Mr.  Itechtel  be«-ame  a 
Rritinh  H>ibj»'ct  that  in  itnelf,  of  courne.  would  1m'  wholly  ini- 
nuiterial,  becanne  he  mi^ht  have  been  a  nubject  of  HelKium 
previouH  to  that.  I'luler  the  Treaty  that  w<»uld  be  nuiterial, 
of  coiirm'.  if  Mr.  IMckinmrn  wan  able  to  prove  that  he  wuh 
nil  .\merican  citi/.«'ii.  It  NeeiiiH  to  me  tlie  bent  time  to  offer 
evidence  like  thin  would  be  when  he  adduced  IiIh  otiier  evi- 
dence. Still,  I  do  not  object  at  the  (trem'tit  time  to  thin,  ex 
cept  that  it  iiii;;lit  tend  ti>  confiiHe,  if  .Mr.  IMckinmin  Hhould 
Im'  unable  to  Kupplenieiit  it  with  other  eviileiice.  If  I  w«'re 
hearing  the  cane  ordinarily  I  think  I  Hhould  ank  counm'l  to 
hold  thin  an  I  have  already  Htated.  I  do  not  object  to  itn  go- 
50  in^  in  at  th«'  |)r«>Heiit  tiiiu>  for  the  proof  of  the  particular  fact 
you  refer  to.  Vou  cannot  put  in  the  wliole  cane  at  one  time, 
and  I  would  Im-  inclined  to  receive  it  and  allow  you  to  prove 
it  at  HiH'li  timeB  an  you  seek  t«»  prove  it. 

Mr.  DickinHon; — I  wuh  actuated  by  a  denire  to  net  alou}; 
withthecaM'Ho  far  an  I  ciiuld  to  lay  before  the  ('i)iiiniiHsioiiei-H 
roHe;  liut  I  am  quite  Hatintied,  after  linteiiiiiK  to  your  llonoiii'. 
that  it  luiKht  poHnibly  encumber  the  record,  and  had  iH'tter 
ffo  in  later.  I  thoiiKlit  ponnildy  my  friend  proponed  to  arg'ie 
the  objection  now. 

Mr.  Petern: — I  nimply  dcnired  my  ri^litn  renerved. 

Mr.  IMckinnoii: — I  niippoHe  the  colhiquy  with  n'ference  to 
fliin  paper  iniKht  an  well  ^o  out  of  the  iioten. 

The  ('omminnioner  on  tlie  part  of  ihe  i'nited  Hlaten: — It 
Htriken  me  that  Ihe  diHruniKon  In  very  valuable.  I  «|o  not 
think  you  have  wanted  lime.  Mr.  hickinnon.  I  think  the 
Hiatun  of  the  piiper  in  neliled,  and  tin-  niatun  of  the  ijiienlioii. 


40 


60 


367 


l'a|H'r  \vi(li«lra\vii. 

Mr.  DifkiiiHoii: — 1  now  dt-Klr*'  to  offvr  tl»>  U'iU'v  of  John 
Tiltoii.  Ih'put.v  MiiiiHtci-  of  FiHiioricH.  to  Mr.  MuuhIi-,  voIuuio 

0  of  till*  ItritiHli  vHHv,  ptigi'  104. 

The  ('(MiiniisHtoiicr  on  thv  jmrt  of  tht?  Tnitt'd  Statoa: — Do 
von  doHiri'  thin  to  tut  into  thi>  noti'H? 

Mr.   Dk-kiuMon: — Vos,  jiour  Honour,  and  tht*  letter  Ih  uh 
\o  follows: 

"Ottawa,  Jul.v  2tJth.  1887. 

Dear  81rH:  I  hnv!>  to  aeknowledp'  the  reeelpt  of  .vour  let- 
ter of  the  iJMIi.  inHtant,  addreHxed  lo  the  MinlHter  of  Marine 
and  FisherleH,  in  whieh  .von  Htat*':  "We  have  not  reei'lved 
ii  Min>;le  w<»rd  from  the  I'nitod  Stat«'H  (lovernnient  ahont  the 
release  of  the  v«'HHel8.  referring,  of  eonrHe,  to  thoHe  seized  last 
seamtn. 

"On  the  2nd  April  last  I  e<nnniunieated  to  .von  the  deeision 
,^,  of  the  President  cf  the  I'nited  KtateH,  in  ho  far  as  releasinn 
tlie  veHselH.  etc.,  whieh  lettt'r  von  aeknowledged. 

"Have  you  niad(>  an,v  a))|)lieation  f«)r  tlie  surrender  of  the 
vesKelH,  or  have  .von  reason  to  suppose  the  Tnited  Htates  (Jov- 

1  riiinent  would  eoniniunieatt>  the  action  to  you  by  other  means 
than  the  ordinary  ottieial  channel? 

"This  department  lost  no  time  in  conimnnicntinu  the  de- 
cision in  nuestitm  to  you.  with  the  exiM-ctation  that  you  would 
at  «»nce  tak«'  stejw  to  rejiain  possession  of  the  veKsels. 
"I  am,  etc.,  (8iRn»Hl.)  JOHX  TILTON. 

"Deputy  Minister  «»f  Fisheries." 


iO 


40 


Mr.  Dickinson :— The  jioint  I  eH|H'»ialIy  call  attentiim  to 
is  that  on  the  >'iid  of  April  last,  1SS7,  he  advised  him  of  the 
<»rder  of  the  President  as  to  reh'asinp  the  vessels,  and  states 
that  Munsie  acknowledK«'<l  the  letter. 

Tli«'  Commissioners  wi'l  H>e  that  we  have  fioi  throufth  some 
preliminary  work  which  would  have  taken  us  just  so  much 
time  to-morrow,  and  at  this  time,  if  agreeable  to  the  <'om- 
ni!Nxion<>rs  and  to  tlu-  learned  cotinsel,  I  would  be  glad  to  have 
the  Commissioners  rise. 

The  Commissioners  then  rose. 


:t,  ;: 


mn :' 


1 1 


OommiBsioners  under  the  Oonvention  of  February  8,  1896,  between 
Great  Britain  and  the  United  States  of  America. 

Chambers  of  the  Legislative  Assembly, 

At  Victoria,  December  11,  1896. 

.\t  10.:t(l  the  Commissioners  took  their  seats. 

Tile  Commissittner  on  th<'  part  of  Her  Majesty: — The  third 
rule  provides  that  the  counsel  f«»r  Her  Majesty  shall  ehu-t 
(lO  within  '_'4  hours  after  the  tHin;,'  of  the  answer  whether  they 
will  make  a  tinul  re|tly  or  not.  That  time  has  elapsed  in  all 
(lie  cases,  I  believe.  .\nd  it  also  pntvides  that  within  24 
lioiMH  after  the  tiliuK  of  the  answer  counsel  fen-  Her  Majesty 
shall  have  an  entry  made  and  adopted  as  to  the  order  in 
wliicji  tlic  cascK  shall  Im*  presenttnl.  The  time  under  that 
I'lile  liavini;  elapsed,  I  |tresuni<  all  has  been  dtme  that  was 
iiilended  to  be  done;  and  it  is  lo  be  assumed  that  if  no  reply 
lias  been  put  in  none  is  intended  to  be;  and  tliat  the  cases  ai'e, 


mww^^^r 


UiMii-i 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


tluM'cfiti'i*,  in  pro|H-r  foiulilioii  to  Ih*  liciird  in  llirir  ttnlcr.  Tlial 
In  what  w(>  tliiiik,  Mr.  rctiTK.  iinlcsH,  |H'i-lia|m,  ,v«>ti  niiKlit  to- 
day, if  .you  liavL*  not  ho  uudi'mtood,  inalvc  Hurli  I'li-i-tion  and 
»uiii  futry. 

Ml'.  IVtcrH: — My  It-arncd  friend,  Mr.  DickinHon.  and  I  a|!r(>o 
tlnit  it  will  really  eanw  n<t  itnu-tit-al  in»'onveni«MH-<'  to  eitluM* 
Midi'  to  put  them  in  an  i|ni<-kly  an  we  «-an  K*'t  tlicni  ready,  and 
that  the  mere  tpu'Htion  of  the  III  lionrH  Hhonid  not  Ih'  l(H>ked 
upon  Ktri<'tly  betw«H'n  as.  Nearly  all  the  re|ili«'H  are  in,  I 
believe;  all  exci'pt  two,  which  will  1m«  ready  to-day. 

The  ConiniisHloner  on  the  jiart  of  the  I'nited  StateH: — We 
want  to  know  where  we  Htand. 

Mr.  Peters: — They  are  all  in  but  two,  and  those  will  Ih'  In 
to-day  OP  tomorrow. 

The  CoinniiHrtioner  on  the  jtart  of  Ih-r  Majesty: — How 
would  it  do  for  yini,  as  my  aHHoeiate  HU^jceNtH,  to  have  your 
eleetion  determined  by  Monday,  at  all  evenls,  and  your  reply 
tiled,  if  you  intt>nd  to  tile  any. 

Mr.  Peters: — That  will  b»'  <|uite  sufTirient. 

Mr.  Dirkinson- — We  liav«'  a^ret'd  in  two  or  three  nnitfers 
that  we  would  ii(>ither  of  us  take  any  advantage  of  the  rule — 
the  ease  of  the  Wanderer  and  one  or  two  others. 

The  <'onimiHsi«»ner  on  the  part  of  tin-  I'nited  States: — How 
much  time  do  you  want  in  wiiicli  to  tile  vour  ainsweix,  Mr. 
Dickinson? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Oil,  by  Monday  morning,  sir.       Of  course 
the    <]uestion    of    th<>    ]u-inter    is    an    unknown    quantit  -. 
He    is    busy    with     the    records    of      the    Commissionei-s, 
and  we  have  had  dilticuliy  on  l)ot!i  sides  in  having;  «Mir  print 
in;;  done  ]n-omptly  within  the  rule. 

The  <'omniissi<»ner  on  (lie  j»art  of  Her  Majesty: — We  will 
undet'stand,  then,  (hat  in  all  cfes  ii  which  the  answer  is  in, 
the  rejdy  shall  be  tiled  on  or  before  Monday  next;  or.  if  the 
CO'  ns.l  for  Her  Majes'v  elec>  n-it  to  i«it  in  any  reply,  the 
case  will  tlu'U  be  wady  to  be  taken  up  in  its  course,  and  the 
other  cases,  I  think,  may  stand  until  further  referred  to; 
soiiu'  time  next  week  we  will  draw  attention  to  the  matt«'r 
again. 

Mr.  Peters: — Of  course  it  is  uiid«-i'stood  that  in  tlu'  case  on 
trial  the  reply  is  in.  The  only  cases  where  repli<>s  are  not 
in  are  the  three  cases  the  names  of  which  I  have  forgotten 
— the  last  three — and  they  will  be  in  within  the  time  indicat- 
ed this  morning. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — My  learned  friend  has  given  me  a  mem- 
orandum of  wi  lit  he  in-oposes  to  introduce  from  the  American 
case,  and  of  course  I  would  like  to  understand  iH'fore  he 
closes  his  case  just  what  c»unes  in — before  we  ojien — and  up- 
on that  point  I  call  your  Honours'  attention  to  the  fact  that 
among  thes<'  are  a  larg(>  numiter  of  ailldavits  otTert><l — two 
sluH'ts — that  an-  atta-lied  to  tlu'  a|)|M'ndix  of  the  case  of  the 
Vnitc'd  States — in  that  appendix.  In  some  cases  tliey  offer 
paragraphs  in  such  allidavits,  and  in  some  cases  only  sen- 
tences from  aflidavilH.  The  paragraph,  for  instance,  from 
the  aflidavit  of  M(n-ris  Moss,  «>ii  the  "San  Diego;"  paragraph 
on  the  Pribyloff  islands,  in  tli<'  \orth  Pacitic  Ocean.  Scmie  of 
these  affidavits  are  very  vtduminous. 

Now,  on  the  subject  of  the  introduction  of  affidavits,  I  de- 
sire to  say  that  at  the  time  the  argument  was  had  on  the 
introduction  of  the  Dtmghis  allldavit,  which  was  the  first  one 
proposed  t«»  be  offered  by  my  friend,  he  offered  it  because  It 
was  in  the  Viiited  States  case  w  in  tlie  record  tit  Sitka.     .My 


(rii'iid  Hhitt'd  th:il  tliiH  rhiHH  uf  tt'Mtiiiioii^'  wiih  only  ouc  wit- 
iM'HH,  iiikI  that,  from  tlu*  intiiiialioiiM  of  tlic  < 'oiiiniiHHioiiiTH, 
JH  only  iitliniltrd  lH-<-aiiH<-  of  that  NtattMiii'iit,  an  I  uiuItTHtoiHl  it 
.il  tlif  tiiiH',  aihl  lu'caiiHt'  the  olij«>ct><Mi  m'«'iiu*<l  to  iiiakt'  hoiiu' 
iiiipn-HHion  on  thi>  t'onrt,  that  tin-  Hiat*-in«>nt  uf  a  witncHH  hi 
tlu-  trial  of  a  raw  in  wliit-h  tlu*  rnit«-d  Slatt-H  iK  a  I'ai-ty  <1i<l 
not  liind  tlu*  rnilnl  Ktatt'H.  If  it  did  nnilo*  any  iniproHHion 
on  tli*>  ('oiii't,  inut'li  nioi-<>  iin|ii'<>HHion  Hlioiild  Ix*  inadt*  wlirn  it 
is  |M'o]Hiwd  to  fcad  attidavilH  tliat  \vi'f<'  tlli>d  lH>forf  tli«'  PariH 
10  TrilMiinil,  an  ItiiidinK  njton  th«'  I'niti-d  Htatt'H  upon  a  lirarini; 
licfort'  tliJH  Iliffli  CoininiHition.  Mnclj  inor<*  ini]>f<>NHion  Hlioiiid 
Itr  inad<'  wlii-n  it  w  |iro|ioH<*d  "it  r«'a«l  but  paragfaitliH  of  hiicIi 
iillitiavitH.  I  xliiili  not  tnliv  Mu'  tiiiif  now  to  ai'Kn*'  tin*  i|ii)'8- 
tioii.  iHM-aiiNt'  I  liav<>  doiK'  ho  tiiMftofnt-o.  and  tlic  roiirt  Iuih 
('Xpr*'HH<'d  itmdf  npon  tlic  Hiibjrct ;  lint  it  iH  nt'ct'HHai'v  ''ir  iih 
to  \iiunv  wliat  Mi,v  fi-ii'iulH  )Mit  in  willi  tin*  porinJHNion  of  tlie 
Conrt. 


20 


30 


Ml*.  P«'t»>fH: — T'ndw  tlioBo  circnniHtnnct'H,  1  inni^ini'  tlio 
most  convcnictir  way  would  In*  for  nu-  to  state  tin*  exact  paf- 
iiiri'MjiliH  I  do  ]M'opnH(>  to  put  in. 

Tile  (.'oinniittHioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  HtateH: — I 
uiiH  hopinpr  we  had  gotten  thron^rh  with  all  tlim;  that  the 
rule  laid  own  hy  my  learned  aHHO«-iat«>  the  other  day  eovered 
tlie  whole  of  It. 

The  t'ommissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — The  r«'fer- 
eiiceH  that  yon  Iiave  made  in  yonr  liHt  really  indii-ate  what 
yon  di'cm  niateiial  to  yonr  ea«e. 

Mr.  Dielvlnflui:: — Well,  it  para^raphH  it,  or  pajjes  it,  pretty 
iicciirately. 


The  <'<nnniiHHioner  on  tlie  part  of  Her  Majeirty: — What  I 
intended  to  exprens  tlie  other  day  wan  that  any  Herions  ob- 
jection made  by  eoniiHel  on  a  point  HhoiiJd  be  };iveii 
wei<;lit  to,  and  that  the  evidenee  that  was  HoiiKht  to  Im> 
liroii^Iit  in  should  be  reri-ived  snbjeet  to  arguments  «if  tlie 
rt'Kpeitive  eomiHel.  Therefore  anytliiiiR  that  Mr.  Peters  tli'iiks 
^o  i"  material  to  his  ease  witli  referenee  to  tliis  matter  nhonld  ro 
in  by  woi-ds  of  referenee,  and  anytliiiiK  that  Mr.  Diekinson 
thinks  necessary  in  tlie  way  of  qnaliflcation  should  also  go 
ill  in  tlu'  same  way. 

Mr.  nickinson: — I  desire  to  record,  however,  inasniueh  as 
we  are  making  biHt<iry  here,  and  it  is  to  be  printed,  my  pro- 
test against  the  admission  of  this  testimony  by  |iu'tinK  it 
upon  tlie  record  as  suitable  authentic  t«-stiniony,  to  say  luith- 
iii;;  of  the  ordinarv  rules  of  law. 


!;o 


Co 


Mr.  Peters: — In  order  to  shorten  the  niatter,  I  have  given 
my  learned  friend  a  statement  of  tlie  references — jiarts  of 
ilic  dilTerent  liooks  1  wish  to  read.  And  in  «irder  to  shorten 
llie  niatter  1  will,  witli  the  |ierniission  of  the  f'tmimissioners, 
liiive  typewritten  tlie  complete  <'xtracts  that  I  wish  to  put  in. 
^fivini,'  my  Iearn4>d  friend  a  copy  and  tiling  a  copy. 

The  roinmissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'liitcd  States: — Have 
you  not  the  references  there  to  the  .\meri<aii  rei»riiit? 

Mr.  Peters: — I  have  the  references;  y<'S,  yonr  Honour. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  tlie  I'nited  States: — I 
have  conferred  with  my  learned  associate  about  tlie  matter, 
iind  we  desire,  so  far  as  (lossible  .to  avoid  putting  into  the 
ii'cord  what  can  be  found  in  the  American  reprint  by  refer- 
ence. Of  coiirs;',  in  any  case  where  counsel  r'-ally  desire  that 
matter  should  go  into  the  recin'd,  we  of  c<Mirs,  w<Mild  consent. 
I'l'l  if  voii  have  the  reference  llieie.  is  not  that  sntlleient .' 

■21 


■iV-', 
til 


i 


Iljlf  •I'.l  tJI  i.pl 


liiMii 


'f 


3;o 

Tlu'  (.'uiiiiiLiimioui'r  «>ii  llie  |Mirt  o.f  Ilfi-  MHJ«'H»y: — It  iim.v  Ik* 
tlu'  n'rt'i'fUct'H  may  Im>  uuiiioroiiH,  and  tliat  Mr.  DirkinHoii  lias 
not  had  till*  ti^i|)ortuiiity  of  goiiiK  uvi-r  the  paHiuiKt'H  to  which 
you  rt'ft'P. 

Mr.  IVtorfi: — Tho  <|iiotHtionfi,  an  a  nih*,  art'  not  long;  in 
fart,  tht'y  ari>  nliort.  My  Ifarnt'd  friend  Iihh  already  got 
ta1«>n  down  on  tlio  not«'R  th«-  full  rt'fen-nciM  lu*  made  to  thu 
American  cane,  to  wliich  I  have  no  objection. 

lo       Tlie  t^nnmlHHiouer  vn  tlie  part  of  the  Ignited  States: — On 
tile  other  liand,  you  nHl<ed  it  to  go  in,  Mr.  IVtern. 

Mr.  Petera: — I  did  not  object  to  itn  going  in  at  nil. 

The  CommiHMioner  on  tlM»  part  of  the  i'nited  8tateH: — You 
tiHived  tliat  it  nttuuld  go  in,  and  it  waR  at  your  requeHt  I  di- 
rert<'d  the  Htenogra])her  to  put  it  in.  Now  what  you  hav«> 
got  is  Hliort,  |H>rhapH,  Itut  Mr.  l>i«-ixinHon  iH  entitled  to  put  into 
the  notes  as  mucli  ax  he  hccs  lit  o{  the  same  paper.  If  we 
knew  we  were  going  to  stop  with  short  extnu-ts,  well  and 
-O  good.  I  say  to  you  as  counsel  and  as  a  friend  of  the  (.'ouimis- 
sion,  not  as  a  ruling  or  instruction,  that  the  Comniissioners 
have  cwnferrtHl,  and  they  desire,  as  far  as  practicable,  that 
whatever  is  in  the  American  reprint  shall  go  into  the  n»corl 
«»Hly  by  referen*-**.  Where  counsel  really  desiw  anytiiing  in 
the  r«M-ord,  if  it  is  im|>ortant,  it  should  l)e  read  into  the  re- 
cord; and  of  cours(>  we  will  yield  to  the  desire  of  counsi'i.  I 
do  not  s<H>  that  I  can  say  anything  more. 

Mr.  Peters: — I'nder  tlicse  circtimstajices  I  will  do  tills:  I 
,-j  will  tak«*  the  wt'erences  as  I  have  them  now  so  that  they  will 
clearly  id<*ntify  tlie  record  I  wish  to  refer  to,  and  then  I  will 
put  that  in. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Now  tliere  is  another  character  of  testi- 
mony that  has  not  been  before  i-eferred  .to,  and  that  is  on  the 
second  i»age  of  the  n(»tes  th;it  have  been  handed  to  me  by 
my  learned  friend.  iM'ing  extracts  from  reimrts  of  committtM'S 
in  Congress,  not  in  tire  American  case  at  all.  They  tind  in 
various  dscuments  tlu>  r<>portH  of  committees,  and  desin>  to 
put  in  certain  contents  of  such  re]M)rts.  Of  course  no  report 
40  of  a  con:mitte<>  «»f  Congress  has  In'en  nd«»pt(>d  by  the  Ooveni- 
ment  of  the  T'aited  Ktat«'s.  and  has  not  been  adopted  In  the 
contpov«'rsy  with  Great  Itritain. 

The  Commissioner  on  liie  part  of  Her  Maji'sty: — It  would 
clearly  seem  to  me,  Mr.  TV'ti'Ps.  that  ♦he  mere  report  of  a 
committee  would  not  l)e  admissible. 

Mr.  Peters: — If  the  Commissioners  will  allow  me.  I  am  not 
attempting  to  put  in  the  report  of  a  committee;  1  am  attem))t- 
ing  to  put  in  tiie  stat<'Uient  of  Captain  L.  '}.  Kheppard,  who 
50  was  tlie  seixing  officer,  and  the  captain  of  the  Rush,  which 
was  em]»loyed  as  a  cruiser  in  these  very  wa'^ers  in  the  year 
1SS7;  and  I  am  giving  tliere  his  sworn  statement,  not  an  af- 
fidavit at  all.  given  a)»par(>ntly  on  a  viva  voce  examination, 
generally  with  regard  to  the  condition  of  the  seal  tishery 
in  the  year  in  wliich  lie  was  a<-tiialiy  ther<».  It  is  not  the  r<'- 
]>ort  of  a  couimitt<M>.  in  conclusion,  that  I  put  in  at  all. 

The  CommiHsioner  on  tlie  jiart  of  Ih-r  Majesty: — This,  as 
T  am  informed,  is  the  testimony  given  by  tliat  officer  before  a 
60  <'omiiiitU'«'.  and  not  n  rejiort  by  Iiini  to  the  E.\ecutive  Depart- 
ment? 

Mr.  Pet(«*s: — It  is  iiis  testimony  taken  before  the  Couimit- 
te«'  on  Merchant  Marine  and  Fislieries. 

Tlie  Commissioner  on  tlie  part  of  Her  Majesty: — It  will 
hardly  be  said  tiial  tliat  was  in  i»erfi>rm!nice  of  his  duty  as 
derived  from  tlic  Executive  authority  of  tlie  I'nited  State*. 


371 


20 


Mr.  IVtcra: — I  will  not  iiiMlMt  on  that. 

Mr.  DiekinHon: — On  «'ith<>r?  Tlu>  54tli  ('ooKrcHH,  dwunivnt 
i:t7,  part  '2,  you  liuvc  eiteil  the  pi>|M)rt  of  C.  il.  TowniM'nd. 

Mr.  IVters: — That  was  the  actual  rc'iMirt  of  an  officer  of  the 
(lovcrniuent,  and  I  think  in  authentic  tcHtiniony.  It  \n  the 
report  of  the  AuHiHtant  Couimiimioner  of  FiMherieH  to  IiIh  gov- 
ernment. 

10  The  Commissioner  on  the  jmrt  of  Her  Majesty: — Well,  so 
far  as  I  am  concerned,  if  that  is  a  reiM)rt  to  the  Kxecutive  De- 
partment, it  might  ])erhap8  have  some  bearing  ui)on  tlie  mat- 
ter. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  tlie  United  Rtates: — Ix?t 
ine  understand  n  little  more  exactly  what  it  is. 

Mr.  Peters: — It  is  the  report  of  C.  II.  Townsend,  Assistant 
Commissioner  of  FiHaeries. 

Tlic  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States : — 
Made  to  whom? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — It  is  cited  here  as  a  reiiort  of  the  54th 
Congress,  Vol.  137,  part  2. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — How 
can  that  affect  us  here? 

Mr.  Peters: — It  was  nmde  during  the  season  of  1894  to  the 
Secretary  of  the  Treasury  at  Washington.    It  was  his  official 
duty  to  make  this  refturt,  and  we  wish  to  cite  a  short  passage 
30  from  it. 

Tlie  Commissioner  on  th<'  part  of  the  Unit«Hl  Stati»s: — 
I  am  frank  to  say  that  I  think  as  between  these  gov- 
ernments that  the  report  «)f  an  executive  ofticer 
made  in  pursuance  of  his  duty  to  his  <ftip<'riors,  is  admissible 
evidence  as  far  as  relevant;  but  I  would  not  get  any  light 
from  anything  reported  in  1894. 

Mr.  Peters: — .\  not  her  part  I  wish  to  refer  to  are  some  ta- 
j  bies  (which  Mr.  Pelers  reads). 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — He 
was  not  a  hydrographic  officer,  was  he? 

Mr.  Peters: — All  I  know  is  he  was  an  agent  appointed  by 
the  United  States  Government  to  make  an  inv«>8tigation  of 
this  matter  and  report  under  the  statute  of  1893. 

Tlie  Commissioner  on  the  jmrt  of  the  U^nited  States:— It 
would  not  affect  iny  mind  a  hair's  breadth,  and  it  would  tend 
to  bury  us  with  jkiimts.  Of  course,  if  my  aHSixhite  tliinks  he 
could  get  any  light  from  it  that  is  another  thing. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — I  do  not 
lliink  it  would  be  worth  while  to  receive  it. 

Mr.  Dickinson : — Then,  to  close  the  subject,  if  the  Commis- 
sioners  please,  without  stopping  now  to  read  all  the  papers, 
]iaragniph^  from  which  are  cited,  we  claim  the  right  to  refer 
to  any  paragraph  of  an  affidavit,  or  all  of  it.  in  accordance 
wUli  the  rule  that  where  one  party  uses  a  written  document 
r,o  belonging  to  the  other — and  only  on  that  rule  can  it  1m*  con- 
sidered admissilile  for  a  moment — the  party  whose  document 
Ih  used  is  entitled  to  use  any  part  of  it. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — W«? 
practically  ruled  on  that,  Mr.  Dickinson,  in  connection  with 
tlie  answer  of  tlie  United  States — the  application  of  it. 

Mr.  Peters: — One  thing  I  wish  to  bring  to  tlie  notice  of  tlie 
Commission,  and  that  is  in  regard  to  the  evidence  of  Mr. 


vii'i 


50 


ilV!l|^ 


IT 

1 

1 

i 


I 
} 


mw"^'^ 


44tMi 


i72 

(•loliii  CotHfoi'd— Difi'ct.) 

Mtirk<'ti«-li.  We,  of  «-<nirH4*,  iiii(1«t  itiind  tliiit  tliiH  t'vidfiicc  in 
taken  in  tho  "rnrolona"  mm',  and  hIro  In  Ida  own  <-iiM«>.  but  rv- 
ft-rring  to  pnKt*  s((  of  tli«*  nott'H  it  niiKlit  Ih*  arKiU'd  tiiat  Mr. 
Mai'kt'tifirH  <'vidfnr«>  wan  not  to  Im*  looked  at  in  tli*'  "Caro- 
lina" cane  nt  nil,  tMM-nu8«>  on  tlint  impc,  for  Honif  reanon  un- 
known, a  new  lieadioK  Ih  inadi',  aH  it  w«'r<',  at  th«-  i-nd  of  IMh 
••vidtMicp,  by  HtatinK  "^'laim  No.  1,  tlio  "Candcna,"  aH  if  what 
,Q  bad  ROUP  lM'f«»r»'  did  n«)t  apply  to  tin-  "CarohMin." 

Th«'  (^>inniiHHion*'r  on  llu'  pari  of  Ilcr  5Iaji'8ty: — IHd  you 
look  at  your  rt-hiark  >it  tli(>  i-Iohc? 

Mr.  IVtcrB: — I  w>p  what  it  in  baHcd  on.  Hut  tliprp  Ih  no 
doubt  that  Mr.  Marki>ti<-h'H  «'vid('n('«*  wan  intondcd  for  the 
whoh'  caHc.  an  will  b<>  R<>t>n  on  rffortMit-p  to  tb«>  manner  in 
which  it  was  introdui-ed. 

The  roniniisHioner  on  the  part  of  tiie  I'nited  Htates: — What 
20  <'o  .von  say  to  that,  Mr.  IHckinsou? 

Mr.  l>lekinH4»n: — I  nay  they  may  read  it  in  in  the  "Onward" 
ea«*  and  in  the  "t'nrolena"  eaBe. 

When  Mr.  MuuMie  waK  e.i  the  Htand,  If  the  Court  piniHe, 
he  Htated  tluit  amon^  the  liunterH  he  could  not  tind  waH  John 
CotHford;  that  lu'  believed  he  wan  in  Heattb>;  that  he  had 
made  effortH  to  j>et  him,  but  had  failed.  We  at  once  cndeav 
ored  to  find  Mr.  4'(»tHford.  My  friend  naid  yenterday  tiiat  he 
had  cl(»He<l  his  «•««'  witli  the  exi-eption  of  Mr.  CotHford.  We 
t;ot  liini  here  yeHterday  and  we  now  produce  him  in  coui-t 
3°  for  my  friend,  and  prefer  tliat  he  would  close  his  case  before 
we  op«'n. 

Mr.  PeterH: — Mr.  CotHford  arrived  here  yeterday,  1  believe, 
but  I  liave  not  seen  him,  nor  have  we  be«'n  able  to  wh*  him. 
I  underntand  that  he  nuiy  hav«'  been  Heen  by  my  learned 
friend  or  H4une  ]H*rH(m  on  his  behalf.  Without  neeinK  him, 
and  not  knowint;  hv  wuh  liere,  and  not  beint;  able  to  w>e  him 
or  find  him,  I  certainly  do  not  tliink  I  can  be  called  on  to 
produce  the  witnecH  without  hnviuK  time  to  talk  to  him. 

Mr.  liodwell: — I  junt  wnt  for  Mr.  CotKford  and  he  Haid  he 
could  not  leave  to  Hee  me,  because  he  was  paid  to  Htay  here 
by  the  ap'ut  of  the  I'nited  Staten  (Soverument. 

Mr.  IMekiuHon: — There  in  not  a  particle  of  doubt  about 
that.  We  found  him;  we  could  not  f;et  him  away  from  IiIm 
w(»rk  without  paying  liim  to  ciime  here. 

Mr.  liodwell: — I  intended  to  Hay  tluit  he  could  not  leave 
bccaiiNe  he  wan  here  at  the  Le^xinlative  AHM'uibly  buiidiu};. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  will  nee  Mr.  Cotsford  aH  soon  jih  I  can. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  will  call  Mr.  <'otHf<trd;  that  will  fjive  you 
a  cliance  to  put  in  anytliing  you  want  upon  croHH-exumina 
tion. 


40 


50 


60 


John  Cotsford  called  as  a  witncBB  on  the  part  of  tlie  United 
States  and  duly  sworn. 

Direct  e.\aminath»n  by   .Mr.    Dickinson: 

Q. — .Ml'.  Cotsford,  wliere  do  you  live?  A. —  I  have  been 
living  (he  last  thr«'e  months  in  Seatih'. 

ii- — Wliere  did  you   live  before  that?    .\. — In  Victoria. 

Q. — How  hinn  had  y«iii  lived  in  Victoria?  \. — Off  and  on 
tlie  hist  thirty  years. 

ti. — Wlieii  were  you  asked  to  come  here  by  nnyon<'  on  be- 
half of  the  I'nited  Stales?     .\.— I  tiiink  it  was  last  Tuesday, 


373 


111 


20 


30 


40 


50 


(.loliii  CotHronl— l>ir«>4t.) 

U- — Tliiit  Ih  tlif  tirNi  ,voii  IiihI  wfii  of  <iiiy<iiif  on  Ix'tiiilf  of 
llic  liiittHl  SHil«'M?     A.— YiH.  Hir. 

H. — l)l«l  tlu'.v  tiiid  wlu-rc  .vou  wore  iit  work?     A. — Y«'h.  Hir. 

Q. — And  iiKlu'd  ,voii  (<»  f<iiM«'  over  lu'W*?     A. — Y«'ii,  hIi-. 

(i. — And  you  ronwntt'd?    A. — Y««h.  hIt. 

(i. — Your  fnniil.v  Ih  \wvv  ,  in  il  nol?  A. — All  ni.v  folkn  nn* 
licri'. 

ii. — TIm'.v  kn«'w  wlicro  von  wvrv  nil  thin  tlin«'?  A. — Y«>h. 
Hir. 

y. — And  knew  wlicrc  yon  wi'rc  at  work,  didn't  thoy?  A. — 
Y<'H.  Hir. 

ii. — And  flioy  havo  llvod  lu'ro  for  tlu'  latit  thirty  yonrs? 
A. — Tlicy  liav«'  lived  hen'  for  tlu'  hiHt  forty  yearH  or  more. 

(i. — Do  yon  kwp  Iiouhc  lu're?     A. — Yen,  nlr. 

(i. — And  y«)ur  wife  whh  here?     A. — \o,  nir;  I  linve  none. 

</. — \Yliat  in  your  family?  A. — Mitther  and  HisterH  and 
Hte|i-brotherH. 

(}. — Yon  have  lived  in  that  houHe  for  liow  long?  A. — The 
hint  fiMir  yeui-H. 

Q. — They  knew  where  you  were  at  work  at  Seattle?  A. — 
Yen.  Hir. 

il — And  what  hunineHH  you  wore  In?     A. — Yen,  nir. 

Q. — Y«>u  wj're  M-alhiK.  I  think,  on  one  of  the  Healing  veHelB 
Honietinie  in  ISHU?  A. — I  went  flrHt  on  the  "Caroh-na,"  1 
liiink  it  waH  'H(>. 

(i. — \Yhat  waH  yonr  buHinoRR  then?    A. — Boiler-inakor. 

(i. — Had  you  ever  Imh'U  «»ut  Healing  before?     A. — No.  nir. 

Q. — Yon  had  had  no  experience  in  Real  huntinf;  then? 
.\. — Xo,  Rir. 

(i. — \Ylio  employed  y<»u  or  nnked  you  to  go?  A. — Mr.  Mun- 
»ie  wan  the  Hrnt,  at  least  Xed  HhieIdH  waR  the  flrHt,  tlien  Mr. 
Mnnnie. 

il — And  did  you  ajiree  lo  >jo?     A. — Not  at  flrat,  I  did  not. 

{]. — I!»)w  were  you  employed  and  jirevailed  on  to  po?  A. — 
My  Xed  Shield'H  perHuanion  I  at  lant  connented  to  go. 

{}. — And  to  whom  did  you  Htate  that  you  would  |{<»?  A. — 
To  Mr.  Miinnie  and  to  Mr.  Be«'htel. 

Q. — Did  they  both  eome  to  your  sliop  together  to  employ 
you? 

Mr.  Petern:— Xow,  I  really  think  that  that  Ir  a  little- 
Mr.  DickiuHon: — I  am  going  to  make  UiIr  examination  un- 
IcMH  I  am  stopped. 

Q. — Who  waH  prenent  when  you  finally  agreed  to  go  and 
wlien  you  were  emploved  to  go?  A. — Mr.  Mnnnie  and  Mr. 
Heihiel. 

ii. — At  your  nhop?     A. — At  the  Bhop  where  I  wan  working. 

i]. — Did  th«'y  eome  together?    A. — Yen,  sir. 

Q. — \Yhat  time  was  this?  A. — I  eould  not  say  whether  it 
was  in  the  forenoon  or  the  aftenioon. 

(i.— \Yhat  month?    A.— The  month  of  May. 

(i.-l88r,?    A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  that  place  was  Robinson's  blacksmith  shop,  oppo- 
site the  Telegraph  Hotel?       A.— Yes,  sir. 

ti.  — At  that  interveiew  did  Mr.  Bechtel  have  anything  to 
Nuy''  A. — I  don't  know  as  there  was  much  said  by  Mr.  Ui'di- 
1<  I.  Itecaiise  Mr.  Munsie  did  the  most  of  the  talking. 

Q.  -Put  he  talked  about  it,  did  lie?    A.— Yes,  sir. 

(]. — And  Ik-  was  there  throughout  the  arrangement''  A. — 
ITe  was  there  when  1  agreed  to  go  finally. 

Q- — At  that  «onversation  was  the  lay  which  yon  were  to 
receive  arranged?  A.— The  lay  was  npoken  of  then,  but  it 
was  spoken  of  before  tljat. 

Q.-  What  \yuvM  you  charge  if  yon  went?  A. — What  they 
would  give  me. 


riffwr- 


T — r 


MtMn'i 


20 


30 


374 
(Joliii  rotMfonl— nirtTl.) 

Q. — Yoii  <li«l  not  n»  out  on  the  'Tiiroh-na"  in  Fcbrnnrv? 
A.— No.  nil. 

ti. — You  nr«'  iN>Httivi>  it  wnn  In  Mii.v?      A. — In  Ma.v. 

<i. — IH(I  you  nndcrHtnnd  from  I'itlnT  of  tlniM'  ^cntlrmcn  «»r 
fr<»ni  Mr.  MunHio  tluit  tli<>  '*('an)l«>nu"  lind  lHi)>n  out  on  t)i«< 
MprinK  trip?  A.— No,  Hir,  but  I  1m»11<'V«'  h>i(>  whh  out  in  tin- 
H|>rinK. 

ii. — Had  hIu'  Imh'H  out  liint  .year,  whether  you  know  it  from 
'°  MuuHie  or  not,  and  ItrouKht  home  Heal  Hl<inH?  A. — That  I 
could  not  nay  poHitively,  iM't'auw*  I  wuh  not  Interittt^l  in  any 
form  or  Hha|M'. 

tV— IHd  y«>u  Ro  down  witli  your  Itrotlier  to  tnl«e  Home  Hl<inN 
fr  m  the  "<?an>lenn'b<>fore  yon  went  on  her?  A.— I  did. 
wliether  that  year  or  <he  year  lM>fon>  I  Itnow  not;  at  leant  1 
cannot  tuiy  poHitively. 

<2— Wan  Hhe  nealinK  in  1885?  A.— I  don't  know  whether 
it  wan  the  Hpring  of  1885  or  188<J  we  went  down  for  the 
HkinH. 

Q. — Now,  when  yiiu  left  for  the  coast,  how  many  huntern 
were  on  hoard?    A. — Four. 

<i.— (live  their  nameH.  A.— Ned  Bhields,  Joe  Dupcmt,  Mc 
(7onuhay  and  J.  Cotsford. 

<i— What  RUUH  did  you  hav<'?  A.— We  had  a  rille  apiece 
and  four  new  Hhot  kuur. 

Q— Who  owned  your  rithw?  A.— >\'e  owned  tlu-m  our- 
selves. 

Q. — Did  you  own  your  own?      A.— Yes,  Kir. 

Q. — And  what  kind  of  shotguns  were  they?  A. — They  were 
Itonehill  make. 

Q. — Are  you  familiar  with  Hhotpuns?      A.— I'ea,  sir. 

Q. — Were  they  new?      A. — I'.rand  new, 

Q- — Was  each  one  furnisht'd  witli  a  shotgun  by  the  own- 
ers?     A. — By  the  owners. 

Q. — What  was  the  value  of  thos**  shotguns?  A. — 1  don't 
know. 

Q^— YoH  don't  know  what  tliey  wore  selling  for  at  the  time? 
A.— No,  sir 

Q. — Wh(  bought  the  ammunition  for  j-our  rifles?  A. — I 
believe  Mi.  Alunsie  bought  the  most  of  it,  but  I  bought  a  few 
shells  to  use  as  I  saw  fit. 

Q. — Were  there  any  canoes  on  the  "Carolona"  when  she 
left  here  on  that  sealing  trip?      A. — Nolie. 

Q. — And  w.hen  you  left  you  did  not  come  back  here  again 
before  the  schooner  was  seized?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Can  you  fix  the  date  that  you  sailed?  A. — No,  sir.  1 
can't,  but  we  arHve<l  off  Tnimak  Pass,  I  think,  on  the  KUb  of 
June.  We  were  about  (hro<*  days  off  Renick.  We  were 
50  about  ten  davs  going  to  Ronick,  or  iu  sight  of  Unimak  Moun- 
tain. 

Q. — Now  then,  did  you  stop  anywhere  between  here  and 
Hehring  Sea?      A. — VVe  stoped  at  Clayoquot. 

Q. — What  did  you  do  at  Clayoquot?      A. — Cot  the  canoes. 

Q. — What  was  done  about  g(>tting  canoes?  A. — fletting 
them,  that  is  all,  from  the  iHdians. 

Q. — Did  j'ou  buy  them  from  them?  A. — They  were  bought 
there  and  paid  for,  I  believe. 

Q. — Did  you  have  anything  to  do  with  the  selection  of  the 
cnnopH?      A. — Only  the  one  T  used  myself. 

Q. — What  have  you  to  say  almut  ihat?  Was  (hat  one  of 
the  iM'st?  A. — It  suited  me  the  bi'st;  I  thought  I  would  like 
it  the  best. 

Q. — Did  yon  make  any  condition  that  you  would  have  that 
canoe  or  yon  would  not  go,  or  something  like  that?  A. — I 
believe  they  objected  to  it  on  account  of  its  costing  a  little 


40 


60 


10 


20 


375 
(.loliii  rotHfonl— l»ir*'(t.) 

IIUIH'    tllllll    lllC   OtiH'IH,    tlIKi    I    HIlid    (Ih'.V    i I«l    ^I't    MOIIH'btnl^ 

flsr. 

Q.— Whom  did  you  tt-ll  tliiH  to?      A.— Ak.  Itfilitcl. 

(/.— Whs  .Mr.  Hirlili-I  at  that  tiadiiiK  |Kmt  tliat  HpriiiK?  A. 
— Il«'  h'ft  Im'IV  on  tlif  Mthooiicr  with  iih  and  w«'iit  down. 

Q.— On  what  Hciioouvr?      A.— Tin-  "Caroli-na." 

g.— .^Ir.  Johu  A.  lifchtel,  or  Andrew  lii'(ht«*l,  othcrwim> 
lalh'd?      A. — .Xndri'w  Hcchti'l. 

Q.— lie  Htartvd  on  tlio  Hfaling  vo.vaR*'?  A. — lit'  h'ft  here 
on  thi'  "Carolena  and  wont  to  ;;iayo«|not  with  \w. 

Q.— Von  knew  liiin  pri-tty  wcll.'did  yon?  A.— Y«'h,  gir,  I 
kn<'W  him  prott.v  well.  1  had  InM-n  ntqmiinltd  with  him  a 
vcar  or  two  bofore  that. 

ti— WaH  lu>  »iirri«'d  o«T  on  tlic  "rarolt-na"  l»v  niiBtalic  or 
iipiimst  hi8  wili?      A.— I  thinii  not. 

(/.— n«>  did  not  Hjiy  K»«<lhy«'  to  (Captain  ORilvio  iM'fon'  ho 
( iiirhd  him  away,  did  lu"?  Yon  did  not  hrar  anytliinK  about 
tils  cominK  ««  board  to  say  goodbye?      A.— Xo." 

i-i- — Well,  who  i>nKn(;od  in  the  i>ur«-ha(u>  of  rniM)OH  at  f'layo- 
(plot?      A.— Mr,  Ucchtcl  did  the  most  of  it. 

ii- — You  had  abont  the  lu'Ht  rani  i'  in  tin*  lot,  didn't  yon? 
.\.— I  had  the  largest,  and  I  suppose  t'ousidered  a  little  the 

Ix'Ht. 

Q. — How  niucii  did  it  eost?  A. — Kleven  dollars,  I  *)eH«»»-e; 
tliat  is  what  I  understood  the  p'    e  that  was  paid  for  her. 

Q. — And  you  Imd  some  talk     lii  IJerhtel;  hf  did  not  want 
(o  buy  her  lM'<-anse  she  «'OHt  so  mueh?       A. — Homebody  <»b- 
^Q  jected  to  the  price;  he  thought  a  Bmall'i'  one  would  do,  but 
I  preferred  it. 

Q. — And  the  priee  fixed  that  h<>  thought  was  too  mueh  was 
♦11,  was  it?  A. — There  was  something  about  the  price  why 
the  objection  was  made  to  it. 

Q. — .Vre  you  familiar  with  canoes?,     A. — Yes,  sii'. 

Q. — Wliat  exjK-rience  have  you  had  witii  vanoes?  A. — 
Well,  I  have  turned  over  several  times  jn  tlfem. 

Q. — Tell  us  about  your  having  any  experience  with  ihen^ 
Indian  canw's  here?  .V. — Another  time  I  was  taking  a  trij* 
ariMind  the  west  coast  of  Vancouver  Island;  spent  sev- 
eral months  in  one. 

(i. — They  are  well  known  here,  are  they  not,  these  cnno«>s 
that  are  used  on  the  coast?  A. — I  can  handle  one  pretty 
well. 

Q.— They  are  well  known  here?  A.— They  are  well  known 
here,  yes. 

Q.— So  that  you  were  familiar  with  the  different  kinds  of 
Indian  canoes  in  188G,  were  yon?  A. — Well,  1  had  been 
around  the  harbor  here  previous  to  that  and  went  around 
the  Island. 

Q. — There  were  four  canoes  bought  there,  were  there,  at 
r^layoquot?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— And  they  were  the  best  quality?  A.— Well,  they  were 
very  good;  they  suited  us. 

Q. — Were  they  of  the  largest  kind?      A. — Xo,  sir. 

Q.— What  was  their  size?  A.— Well,  I  could  not  giv«  you 
tlie  size;  there  was  no  two  of  them  the  same  size;  a  little  dif- 
ference in  size  the  four  of  them;  but  they  were  of  the  size 
suitable  for  sealing  ;.urpose». 

Q. — What  was  the\:.lue  of  those  canoes  other  than  the  one 
lliat  you  had?  A. — I  would  put  them  down  from  ten  to  fif- 
lf'<'n  dollars. 

Q.— That  is  a  fair  valuation?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Now,  were  not  those  canoes  brought  back  4»ere  and 
steamed  ribs  put  in  them  here  in  Victoria?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Before  you  went  up  to  Hehring  Sea?  A. — No,  sir,  they 
were  not  brought  here  at  all. 


40 


5" 


(JQ 


tilt:,!     r 


!'  " 


'1111: 
11 


"il'pfffT"  " 


Ml'ili    ! 


376 

(.lohii  < 'titHford — nircrt.) 

Q. — Tlioy  w»'r«'  put  on  .vour  sliip  aixl  llu>,v  wt-n-  Moizcd  willi 
licr,  iiiid  iM'vtT  I'linu'  lnu-k  Uvw,  did  tln'.v?      A. — V«'8,  «ir. 

Q. — Tln'.v  did  not  coiiio  bsuk  Iumt,  did  tlie.v?      A. — \«».  si,-. 

ii. — Wlio  atlciidod  to  tlu'  titling  out  of  llumi'  canoi's  up 
tluiv?  A. — X«'d  8liii>ld8  done  tlu"  most  of  it,  and  Mr.  lledtU'i 
was  th<>  ]>rin«-ipal  on(>  lu>!pin|;  liini. 

(J. — And  what  waH  don«'  with  thf  i-anooB?  A. — Ribs  was 
10   put  in  to  liold  thcni  togctluT. 

Q. — Who  ntti-ndt'd  to  tlu'  Htcaniini;  of  thi*  ribs?  A. — I 
Ihinii  tlu'.v  W(>ro  put  in  witliout  stcaniiii};,  so  far  as  I  can  rc- 
nionibcr;  I  rcnioniber  there  was  no  steaming  done.  I  wasn't 
there  all  the  time  while  ilie  ribs  was  i;oin{;  in;  I  seen  them 
start  on  them. 

Q. — In  this  business  up  there,  or  in  the  business  for  the 
Carolena  on  this  trip,  will  you  please  state  who  the  men  were 
consideri'd  ninna{<:inK  owners?  A. — Mr.  Munsie  and  Mr. 
IVH'htel . 


20 


30 


40 


50 


r.o 


Mr.  I'eters: — Wait  a  inonH>n1;  I  submit  that  a  mere  em- 
plo.vcH»  on  a  ship  is  not  a  iiroper  pers«>n  to  prove  that  b.v;  It 
assumes  something;  in  the  tirst  p]a«t>  it  assumes  that  he  was 
owner.  It  is  proveil  here  already,  I  think,  that  Mr.  Munsie 
was  owner;  but  to  ask  a  mere  employe*'  who  was  the  owner 
of  the  ship  surely  eannot  be  done.  If  there  were  two  owners 
it  would  be  on  the  registfT;  and  if  there  was  a  manaitin^ 
owner  it  would  be  on  the  register. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Wi-  think  this  is  suitable  autlieiitii  tesli- 
mony.  may  it  please  your  Honours,  to  show  who  the  employ«>es 
were  looking  u]»  (o  on  the  whole  trip,  in  connection  with  the 
other  testimony. 

The  Contmisioner  on  the  i)art  of  Tier  Majesty: — Y«»u  can 
give  evidence  as  to  what  he  did.  .Mr.  Dickinson,  from  whicli 
the  conclusion  might  be  drawn,  but  you  cannot,  I  tliink,  ask 
that  question.  1    , 

The  fommisioner  on  the  part  of  the  Tnited  States: — What 
wasdon(>  or  said — what  took  place.  Mr.  Peters  made  an  ob- 
jection that  it  must  appear  in  the  pa|M>rs  of  the  vessel.  That 
is  another  proposition  entiri'ly. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  quite  understand  the  objection  and  the 
ruling. 

The  Comniissi(mer  tm  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States:--I  do 
not  think  tlie  <'ommissioiiers  intend  to  give  elTect  to  that  ob- 
jection, at  the  present  at  any  rate,  if  they  do  at  all.  That  is 
a  broader  «tbjeclion  than  the  one  we  are  considering. 

Q. — I  low  were  these  ribs  jnit  in?      .\. — IJent  and  nailed  In. 

*i — At  the  tiin<>  of  the  dealing  for  the  canoes,  was  (lap- 
tain  Ogilvie  with  Mechlt'l?       .\. — Xo,  sir. 

Q. — Where  was  he?  A. — Ab«)ard  the  vessel;  at  least  he 
Wi'sn't  around  at  the  time  they  wen-  dick«'ring  for  'he  canoes. 

Q. — Xow,  did  y«)u  see  a  man  there  called  Indian  .limmy? 
.\. — He  might  hav(>  been  there,  but  I  don't  know. 

Q. — Y(Mi  were  not  acquainted  with  him  particularly?  A. — 
^  o,  sir. 

H. — Do  you  know  Indian  .limmy?  .\. — X«>t  by  mime;  I 
nmy  know  him  by  sight. 

Q.— You  went  through  what  jtass?      .\. — I'nimak  Pass. 

Q. — When  did  you  commence  sealing?  .\. — W«'  started 
hunting  for  seals  shortly  after  we  got  in. 

Q. — When  did  you  c(mimence  taking  seals?  you  got  in  on 
the  i;Uh  of  ,Inne?  .\.— I  think  from  the  tirst  of  August— 
frimi  the  Ist  of  .Inly  I  should  have  said. 


lO 


20 


3^ 


177 

H  (John  CotHfoid— Diivtt.) 

il. — Wlu'iu'  iilioiitH  wt'iv  you  llu'ii  in  llu'  Hea?  A. — Soino- 
wlii'iv  tiroiind  i1il>  iHlaiulH,  St.  (SoorKt*  aiul  St.  I'aiil. 

Q. — Wliat  kind  of  a  month  did  yon  have  in  .Inly?  A. — The 
faiiH'st  month  wo  have  had  any  wason  I  have  ln'on  up  thcr*-. 
sim-o.  ,  •  •jJiH 

Q. — And  yon  have  been  np  there  how  many  seaoonH  tdne*-? 
A.— Three.  * 

y. — And  yon  hunted  with  eanoes  since?      A. — No,  nir. 

Q. — AIwayH  in  bontH?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — How  nniny  men  went  out  in  tliew  ranoes?      A. — Two. 

Q, — One  to  haudU>  tlie  eanoe  and  tlie  other  to  shoot  ?  A. — 
lt(t*i|  liandU'J  the  eanoe  at  eitlier  end;  tlie  hunter  was  rowing 
and  tlie  <»tlier  man  wan  paddling;  aii<]  Hteerin^. 

Q. — Do  you  know  anytliiuK  about  what  tlie  time  Capt.  Oph'- 
vie,  or  did  you  hear  anything;  about  tlie  time  he  was  preparing 
to  leave  the  Sea?  A. — Somewhere  about  the  2(»th  w  2;ird 
of  August,  I  believe. 

Q. — Did  you  hear  that  fnmi  the  <;a])taiii?  A. — That  is 
about  tli«>  time  it  was  un<b>rHto(Ml  we  would  Htart  to  pi  home. 
I  think  we  pot  it  from  the  ea]itain. 

Q. — What  makes  you  remember  the  time  that  he  talked  of 
leaving;  the  Sea?  A. — I  suppose  on  aecount  of  talking  years 
afterwards  about    what   tinu'  we  started  for  home. 

Q.— Did  you  hear  anything  said  about  the  provisions  on 
board?  A. — Tlu're  was  a  remark  passed  that  if  we  stayed  to 
that  time  we  were  liable  to  be  short  of  provisions  piinp  home; 
who  started  the  yarn  I  don't  know;  but  it  started  aboard  by 
Monu>  one. 

Q. — Did  you  have  any  barrels  of  llour  on  that  ship?  A. — 
\o,  sir,  not  that  I  know  of. 

(J. — We'-e  vou  on  her  when  she  was  seized?  A. — The 
scluKiner? 

(i. — Yes.  A. — I  was  away  from  the  s<'lio<m<>r,  out  in  a 
canoe. 

Q. — You  came  back  lon>«  before  anything  was  taken  from 
her?      A. — As  far  as  I  know  of,  y«'8. 

i-l. — Ihi  you  know  anything;  about  what  sacks  of  llour  wi'ie 
40  seized?      A. — N'o,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  see  the  llour  when  it  was  taken  off?  A. — I 
]iai(i  no  attention;  I  didn't  see  any  taken  off. 

Q. — \Vlio  did  you  hear  say  aiiytliin}r  about  you  would  be 
short  of  provisions  if  you  left  on  the  'l',\v{\  of  Aucust?  A. — 
It  was  a  remark  that  passed  aboard;  who  it  caiii«>  from  I 
ihin't  know.  *«',#/ 

ti.— The  co<»k?  A.— IT.>  may  have  -started  it;  1  don't  know 
who  it  was  started  it ;  it  was  a  common  report  about  amon^fst 
lis. 

<J. — After  you  were  si'ized.  what  was  <1one  with  you  per- 
siuially?  A. — The  only  restraint  put  on  me  was  after  we 
go)  into  Ounalaska  harlioiir,  we  was  told  only  half  the  crew 
(iiiild  go  ashore.  And  when  they  came  aboard  the  other  half 
could  go  ashore. 

Q. — Did  you  all  go  ashore  if  you  pleased?  A. — Half  went 
ashore,  and  after  diiiii(>r  we  all  went  ashore. 

Q. — Did  anv  one  interfere  with  vour  g»»iiig  ashore  after 
that?       A.— No.  sir. 

Q. — Or  coming  back?       A. — No.  sir. 

Q.-  Did  wha!  you  liked?      A.— Pretty  near. 
Q. — And  bow   long  were  you  at   Ounalaska?       A. — Alight 
have  been  there  a  week  or  ten  days      I  could  not  say  iiosillve. 
Q. — Then  wiu-re  did  you  go?      A. — Tlu'y  jiut  us  aboard  the 
steainer  "St.  Paul"  and  sent  us  to  San  Francisco. 

(i. — How  many  of  yon?       A. — Nine  of  us.  \ 

ti. — fan  you  remember  tlu'  names?      A. — I  lliink  so. 


I' ) 


ii' 


% 


Ii  1!. 


~'vl 


'.'   ! 


!  ., 


MiM. 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


(John  Cotsford — Diwct.) 

Q.— .lust  give  thcni  to  us.  A.— Nod.  Sliiclds,  Joo.  DuiHUit, 
Mi(Vniahii.v,  Dave  Kutwt'll,  William  Knox,  William  MnnHic, 
Walter  Tennyson,  J.  Cotsford;  the  cook '8  name  was  John  Mc- 
Carter,  I  think. 

Q.— How  long  were  you  in  San  Franeisco?  A.— I  think  I 
was  there  about  a  week;  sonit^where  around,  or  seven  days; 
I  couldn't  say  for  certain. 

Q.— Where  did  you  stay?      A.— I  think  I  roomed  with  a 
party  I  was  there  with  when  I  was  working  at  San  Fnuieis-  ' 
CO,  and  boarded  at  Montgomery's  Hotel. 

Q-— Who  paid  your  board?      A.— I  paid  it. 

Q- — Has  any  one  ever  advanced  you  any  money  for  it?  A. 
— No,  sir. 

Q.— And  when  did  you  come  to  Victoria?  A.— Coniv  up 
on  the  steamer. 

Q— What  steamer?  A.— I  forget  the  name  of  the  steam- 
er. 

Q.— What  line?  A.— The  Pacific  Coast  Steamship  Com- 
pany's steamer. 

Q. — And  who  paid  your  fare?    A. — I  paid  my  own  fare. 

Q- — You  had  money,  had  you?  A. — I  bttrrowed  money  at 
San  Francisco. 

Q. — Did  any  one  ever  pay  it  back  to  you?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q.— Did  you  pay  any  one  else's  fare?"  A  —I  paid  the  cook's 
fare,  and  also  a  man  on  the  "Thornton."  For  the  man  on  the 
"Thornton"  I  gave  the  purser  my  watch  as  security  until  we 
got  to  Victoria. 

Q. — Did  you  ever  receive  from  any  one  the  money  that  you 
paid  for  the  cook?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Never  received  it  from  anybody?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Mr.  Munsie  n«'ver  paid  your  fare  back?      .\. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Now,  you  caught  some  seals  up  ther«'  in  Hehring  Sea 
on  that  trip  on  the  "Carolena"  before  you  were  seized?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

(J. — Do  you  remember  how  many?  A. — I  don't  know,  (»4() 
odd  or  SCO  odd. 

Q. — Did  you  catch  any  on  the  ♦•oast  going  up?  A. — No, 
sir. 

Q. — And  wimt  was  your  lay?      A. — f1.r>0  jier  skin. 

Q.— Did  .von  get  paid?  A. — I  got  paid  for  what  skins  I 
delivered  aboard  the  schooner. 

Q.— Who  by?     A.-  -Mr.  Munsie. 

Q. — How  much?  .V. — I  forget  about  what  mimber  of 
skins  I  had. 

Q. — Did  you  keep  any  memorandum  of  it?  A. — I  have  a 
memorandum  at  home,  I  b(  lieve,  of  tlie  niimbcr  of  skins  I  can 


50 


soon  hunt  it  up  and  bring  it  over. 

Q. — One  more  question  altout  canoes.  Are  these  canoes  all 
bought  of  one  party,  or  several.  A. — Tliey  are  bought 
from  different  parties. 

Q. — You  were  on  shore  in  the  purchase  of  canoes,  were  you? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — When  Ilechtel  was  along?  A. — Wlien  Rechtel  was 
along. 

Q. — While  you  were  in  the  liarboyr  at  Ounalaska,  was  any 

Co   restraint  j>ut  ufHtn  Caj)tain  Ogilvie,  or  the  mate,  .Mr.  Ulake 

any  more  than  on  the  rest  of  you?      A. — I  heard  of  no  more. 

Q. — They  went  ashore  wlu-n  they  jdeased,  and  wame  back 
when  they  pleased?       A. — I  beli«>ve  so. 

Q. — No  interference  with  them?  A. — No  !ntcrfer«'nce;  the 
captain  went  ashcm*,  he  wasn't  ashor<>  long;  he  stayeil  aboard 
the  vessel  the  most  of  the  time. 

Q. — Did  y«u  sec  any  shingles  in  tlu'  seams  of  that  ship?  A. 
— No,  sir. 


lo 


20 


379 
(Joliii  Cot 8f«>id— Diii'ct.) 

Q._Wbut  ballast  did  Hhe  carry?  A.— 1  don't  know  what 
tmllast  she  caried;  it  was  iindor  foot  so  I  didu't  see  it. 

Q.— Did  you  see  any  lumber  in  the  ship?  A. — Only  for 
the  salt  bins,  er  soniething  like  that!  there  was  no  lumber 
to  speak  of,  that  I  know  of,  on  board. 

Q.— How  much  pilot  bread  did  you  have  in  that  ship,  did 
vou  have  as  many  as  forty  boxes?  A. — I  don't  think  we 
(lid. 

Q.— What  amount  of  pilot  bread  do  you  think  you  did  have 
tliei-e?      A. — I  suppose  we  had  about  five  or  six  boxes. 

Q. — Will  you  state  whether  Ojjilvic;  was  ill  before  you  got 
to  Ounalaska?  A. — I  heard  nothing  of  him  being  ill  until 
w<'  got  in  there,  and  he  spoke  of  seeing  the  doctor  and  getting 
Home  medicine  from  him. 

Q. — What  ships  did  you  see  in  Behrin£  Sea  in  1886  up  to 
the  time  you  were  seized?  4- — We  ware  hunting  in  com- 
pany with  the  "Thornton. 

Q. — Any  other?  A. — There  was  other  schooners  around, 
Imt  I  forget  which  ones  they  were. 

(). — Was  the  Onward  near  you?  A. — Well,  we  run  across 
the  Onward  towards  morning,  or  midnight,  when  the  cutter 
had  us  in  tow. 

Q. — That  was  early  in  July  that  yon  were  sealing  there 
with  tlie  "Thornton?"'  A. — That  was  late  in  July  shortly  be- 
l(»re  we  were  seized. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  of  siM'aking  the  '"Favourite?"  A. — I 

iM'lifve  the  "Favourite"   was  spoke,  but   I   was  in   n>y  bunk 

30  when  she  was  spoken.      The  schooner's  headway  stopping 

woke  me  up;  we  heard  afterwards  it  was  the  "Favourite," 

but  at  tliat  time  I  didn't  know  what  schooner  it  was. 

g.— What  did  you  go  out  in,  in  1887?  A.— Went  out  in 
the  schouer  "Favourite." 

(J. — .\nd  what  in  1888?  A. — Went  out  in  the  schoner 
"Halcyon,"  1  think,  in  1888,  called  tl»'  "Viva"  now. 

Q.— And  in  1889?      A.— In  1889  I  went  out  in  the  Allie  1. 
.\  Iper. 
(i.— And  you  sail*^!  in  1891  and  1892?      A.— I  was  in  the 
40  ".\llie  T.  Alger"  in  the  fall  of  one  year,  and  the  next  year 
ill  the  "Rea  Lion." 

Q. — And  down  to  what  time  did  you  seal  every  season?  A. 
I  have  be«-n  rather  unfortunate  in  He:iling;  I  hardly  have  had 
tliree  full  seasons  since  I  have  Imh'u  sealing. 

Q. — Hut  you  did  go  out  every  year  after  188(5  for  awhile? 
A. — I  went  out  for  ten  yeare  altogether;  1886  was  the  first 
year. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  in  Rehring  Se.i  lh»'re  is  any  place  or 
number  of  places  where  you  can  go  as  a  sure  thing  and  get 
sciIh  every  year?  A. — 1  don't  think  there  is  any  sure  place. 
(.y — Homething  has  been  said  about  your  being  paid  by  i\w 
I'nited  Htates.  What  has  been  said  to  you  in  r<>gard  to  com- 
iii;;  over  here?  .\. — I  was  asked  if  I  could  come  over,  and 
tlie  answer  I  gave  was  I  didn't  know  wheth«>r  1  could  come 
iir  not,  I  was  asked  if  my  expenses  were  paid  and  my  wag«'S 
were  palj  if  I  would  come  then. 


50 


-I  don't  think  this  is  a  nmtter  that  ought  to 


(u 


Mr.  Peters: 
(TO  in. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — T  think  so,  after  the  statement  of  Mr. 
Spring. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  really  think  it  is  hardly  neresary  to  put  in 
till'  notes  of  this  Comniission  any  (jnestion  as  to  whether  a 
wilnesH  gets  jtaid  to  come  or  not,  because  it  is  clearly  a]>- 
imrent  to  the  Commission  and  to  counsel  on  both  sides  that 
wilncHscH  at  a  diKtanc(>  cannot  be  Itrought  here  without  Iwing 


lU'l 


iliii 


'M, 


•:  !:  )• 


i: 


jlillll*" 


wp|RffWT"'"»r 


U»M. 


lO 


20 


30 


380 

(John  ('otsford — I)in'«-t — Cross.) 

[Miid;  they  iniiHt  Ik>  paid  for  their  troiilde  and  their  time.  It 
iniKlit  be  iK»HHil)h',  under  extraordinary  eircuniHtanees,  if  one 
wiHiieM  to  diHeredit  a  witneHs,  and  sliow  tliat  lie  \\s\»  paid  a 
hirge  sum,  to  crimH-exiunine  liini  alxait  it,  but  here  in  tlie  tirut 
instance,  what  ean  it  have  to  do? 

Mr.  DieliinHon: — XotliinR,  exeept  tlie  statement  ni-ide  by 
eotinsel  on  tlie  otlier  side  tliat  llie  witness  stated  lie  w.s  paid 
by  the  United  States,  and  he  could  not  see  him. 

Mr.  Peters: — That  statement  was  fully  explained,  that  he 
simply  said  he  was  siibpo«>naed,  was  here,  and  could  not  leave. 

The  ( 'Onimissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — I  do 
not  think  it  is  of  the  sli};litest  conse(|uence  one  way  or  the 
other. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — With  all  due  def«'ren<'e,  may  it  jdease  the 
Commissioners,  I  shall  not  jiermit  the  statement  to  be  made 
that  this  witness  said  he  was  paid  by  the  Vnited  States  and 
conid  not  be  8«H'n  by  the  counsel  on  the  otlu-r  side. 

Mr.  Peters: — Such  a  statement  was  never  intended  to  be 
made  by  us,  nor  can  any  such  meaiiin<;  I  think  fairly  be  taken 
as  to  what  was  said. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  jiart  of  the  I'nited  States: — 
AKainst  that,  Mr.  Dickinson,  y«Mir  own  statt'iiu'nt  is  sutti<ient 
without  the  statement  of  the  witness. 

Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Peters: — 

O. — Now  Mr.  Cotsford  you  bet>;au  sealing  in  the  year  1880? 
A. — Yes,  sir,  tliat  was  my  first  year  sealing. 

Q. — At  that  time  did  you  own  a  rifle?      A. — No,  sip. 

Q. — What  had  you  bwn  doing  before  that?  A. — Hoiler- 
nmking  and  rowing. 

(J. — Anythinu;  else?      A. — Nothing  more  tliat  1  know  of. 

Q. — Did  you  ever  do  any  shooting  before  that?  A. — Lots 
of  it,  for  du<-ks  and  grouse. 

Q. — Anything  else?      A.— No,  I  don't  think  I  «'ver  shot  a 
4°  deer  before  I  went  sealing. 

Q. — You  shot  ducks  and  grouse  with  a  sliot  gun.  of  course? 
A. — Shot  gun  and  rifle. 

Q. — Did  vou  ever  shoot  a  grouse  with  a  rifle?  A. — Yes. 
sir. 

Q.— At  what  distance,  pray,  before  188(!?  A.— I  tliink 
about  as  fine  a  shot  I  ever  made  with  a  rifle  was  off  Heecliy 
Ilay  there  in  the  Straits,  a  little  white  diver  was  ofT  about  fif> 
yards,  and  I  cut  his  head  off  with  a  rifl«'  bullet;  I  have  shot 
ducks  flying  with  a  rifle;  and  also  up  in  Nanainio  out  of  seven 
shots  I  killed  five  brant. 

Q. — When  was  this?      A. — Hefore  I  went  sealing. 

Q. — So  I  may  say  you  w«'re  a  pretty  fair  shot?  A. — I  was 
passable.      I  was  goo<l  wilh  a  shot  gi<n. 

Q. — Yon  would  be  rather  a  dangerous  man,  either  to  a 
seal  or  to  any  enemy,  I  should  think?      A. — I  tliink  not. 

Q. — So  that  you  did  not  go  out  sealing  altogether  unac- 
cust«niied  to  gunning?      A. — No.  sir. 

Q. — And  when  Ned  Sliields  asked  you  to  go  with  him  as  he 
60  did,  he  did  so  becaus*'  he  knew  you  w«'re  a  good  man,  was 
that  not  it?       A. — Partly  that,   I   believe,  and   partly  as  a 
<-om|)ani<m,  we  were  well  ac(|uaint(Kl  as  boys  together. 

Q. — Ned  Shields  knew  about  your  shooting  cajiacity  did  he 
not?      A. — I  think  so. 

Q. — Ned  Shields  was  a  pretty  good  shot  himself  was  he 
not?      A. — A  very  good  shot. 

Q.  Do  you  think  it  nearly  as  difllcult  to  shoot  a  seal  asleep 
on  the  water,  as  to  shoot  a  gull  flying  with  a  rifle;  which  do 


50 


10 


20 


38i 

|J«»hii  <\)tHr<>fd — CnmH.) 

vKii  thiuk  would  bo  tin*  liurder?  A. — I  thiuk  about  the  miinu 
oil  tlio  wnter,  hcniuHV  you  have  tin-  double  motion,  the  bird 
18  Hying,  and  th<>  boat  \»  in  motion,  but  I  think  the  bird  would 
l»e  tiie  hardest  of  the  two,  at  least,  I  am  not  so  well  aeeus- 
ittmed  to  HluKiting  birds  as  I  am  sea's.  Therefore,  I  think 
birds  would  be  the  hardest  of  the  two. 

(J. — \»  «  nmtter  of  facr  did  .vou  find  much  diflieulty  iu 
Htiooting  seals?      A. — \o,  sir. 

Q. — Somebody  said  here  the  other  da.v  that  you  were  looked 
ii|K»n  as  a  pretty  good  hunter;  do  you  tliink  they  were  wrong? 
A. — I  don't  think  they  were. 

Q. — As  a  matter  of  fact,  will  you  allow  any  person  to  say 
that  lie  is  a  better  hunter  than  you  aiv?  A. — There  is  not 
only  as  good,  but  there  is  a  better. 

Q. — l>o  yon  know  any  better  hunter  than  yourself?  A. — 
At  the  present  time,  I  daresay,  you  will  find  several  better 
chaps  than  I  am. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — The  witness  is  modest,  he  is  one  of  the 
best  shots  in  Victoria. 

Witness: — In  that  ease  I  would  rather  he  would  prove  it 

first. 

y. — I  believe  Ned  Shields  was  a  good  shot,  was  he  not? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

y. — You  had  Joe.  Dupont,  do  you  know  him?  A. — Y'es, 
sir. 

il. — \Yhat  sort  of  a  shot  was  he?  A.- -Joe.  Dupont  was  a 
30   ^ •''.'*  g""«l  shot. 

Q. — And  McC'onahey,  the  otlier  hunter?  A. — lie  was  u 
good  shot  but  it  troubled  him  in  the  canoe  on  account  of  be- 
ing so  tall. 

ii. — So  far  as  the  canoe  was  concerned  that  did  not 
(rouble  you  at  all,  did  it?      A. — No,  sir. 

(i.— You  were  just  as  much  at  home  in  a  canoe  as  any- 
where else?      A. — On  the  water,  yes,  sir. 

i}.—  I  believe  you  have  been  accustomed  to  most  all  kinds 
of  sniJill  craft,  racing  craft,  light  rowing  boats,  and  canoes  of 
40  ill!  kinds,  is  not  that  true?  A. — Anything,  that  will  float  on 
tlic  water. 

il. — Now  Shields  was  about  the  same,  was  he  not?  A. — 
I  tliink  HO. 

il. — And  Dupont  was  about  the  same  was  he  not?  A. — 
Not  as  handy  as  Ned.  was  in  a  canoe,  but  he  seemed  to  be 
i|uife  at  home  in  a  canoe  for  all  that. 

Q. — .\nd  McConahey,  you  say,  is  not  (luite  as  good  in  a 
laiioe  as  you  other  men?  A. — No,  he  said  he  didn't  like 
fheni. 

Q.— He  was  a  good  shot.  I  believe?  A.— lie  was  a  good 
sliot  on  land. 

(i.— .\nd  a  good  liunfer?  A. — Well,  if  a  man  is  not  accus- 
tomed to  a  b<mt  or  canoe  it  is  a  ticklish  thing,  and  a  nnm 
can't  handle  a  gtin  very  well. 

ii. — Now  in  IHSfi  you  went  out  with  this  vessel  with  the 
tlilTeifnt  jiartieH,  and  your  vessel  was  seized?     A. — Yes.  sir. 

ii. — I  want  you  to  tell  me  wimt  time  of  day  yotir  vessel 
wax  seized?  A. — I  Ix-lieve  it  was  stnne  time  in  the  after- 
noon. 

H. — fan  you  fell  me  anywhere  near  the  time?  A. — The 
iliiVN  u|>  flu're  were  very  King  at  that  time,  we  were  out 
sfinutinies  very  early  in  the  morning,  just  about  daylight, 
iind  would  stay  out  till  dark. 

ii. — W«'re  vou  out  when  she  was  seized?  A. — Y'es,  out  in 
M  cano(>. 

<i. — <'oiild  you  see  (he  seizure  actually  taking  jilace?  A. 
—  We  glanced  towards  (he  vessel  every  ouce  in  «  while,  a 


io 


r,o 


Hi' 

I 


MK 


^|iVlf|H"f»'VHT 


MiMt 


lO 


30 


3S2 

(.loliii  <  'otnford — <  'nwB.) 

half  hour  «»r  an  hour  to  K«'t  our  boariiiKH,  or  we  liow  fat  wo 
wore  jjetting  away.  When  the  cuttor  was  alonKHide  we  Ht»i' 
there  was  HoniethhiK  wronj?  there  «)ff  in  that  direction  bv  the 
comimttB,  and  after  piillinf;  awhUe  we  nee  Home  larp'  veHHel 
eloHe  to  where  the  "('aroh'na''  on^lit  to  be,  as  well  an  Hnioke. 
We  started  then  to  work  back  towards  her.  I  believe  I  was 
the  last  one  aboard  that  day. 

Q. — In  K^ing  out  senlin^  do  you  lower  more  than  once  a 
day?    A. — If  it  is  fine  we  stay  out  all  day. 

Q. — You  do  not  come  back  in  the  middle  of  the  day?  A. — 
Not  unless  we  are  forced  back  by  the  weather. 

Q. — Do  you  know  whether  you  had  been  out  long  befon» 
the  seizure  took  place  that  day?  A. — I  think  we  had  l)e«'n 
out  about  all  day;  it  was  well  along  in  the  afternoon  when 
we  were  seized,  I  canot  tell  you  the  tim«». 

Q. — Now  after  you  were  seized,  are  you  |)ositive  it  was  not 
before  twelve  o'clock  in  the  day?    A. — I  think  it  was  well 
20  on  in  the  afternoon. 

Q. — What  makes  you  think  so?  A. — I  hav(!  an  idea  it  was 
getting  on  towards  dark  wh(>n  I  handed  my  ritle  and  shot  gun 
aboard  the  cutter. 

Q. — How  long  was  it  after  you  saw  the  steamer  before  you 
got  on  board  your  ship,  what  distance  were  you  off?  A. — 
I  suppose  I  was  somewhere  about  eight  miles  away. 

Q. — It  appears  you  took  out  a  rifle  and  a  shot  gun  -arith 
you?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  always  carry  both?  A. — I  think  I  always  car- 
ried both,  unless  it  was  very  wet,  to  save  the  trouble  of 
cleaning  it  I  would  leave  it  aboard. 

Q. — Leave  your  riHe  aboard?     A. — Ij«'ave  the  rifle  aboard. 

Q. — You  used  the  shot  gun  in  pref«'rence  to  the  rifle,  did 
you,  at  close  quarters?    A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Was  there  an  advantage  in  having  the  rifle?  A. — One 
advantage  with  a  rifle,  the  way  you  point  it  the  bullet  goes, 
and  the  shot  gun  scatters. 

Q. — I  believe  that  is  the  case  with  all  shot  guns  where 
bu<'kshot  is  used?  A. — Some  shoot  a  great  deal  closer  than 
others. 

Q. — Now  having  been  8eiz«'d,  you  were  taken  in  tow,  were 
you?    A. — We  were  taken  in  tow. 

Q. — And  you  went  to  Ounalaska?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  what  time  you  reached  Ounalaska? 
A. — I  think  it  was  in  the  forenocm;  I  dtrn't  know  whether  it 
was  in  the  foivnoon  or  the  afternoon  of  the  following  day. 

Q. — How  long  did  it  tak«>  you  to  get  to  Ounalaska  from  the 
place  you  were  seized,  just  one  night?  A. — A  night  and  a 
part  of  the  foivnoon,  and  for  the  most  jiart  of  the  following 
day.  I  don't  know  whether  it  was  in  the  foreniwn  or  the 
afternoon. 

Q. — Now  what  did  they  do  wlien  they  got  to  Ounalaska? 
What  was  the  next  stejt  taken?  A.— The  next  steji  taken 
was  to  tell  us  to  stiiy  on  board,  then  we  were  allowed  one 
half  of  the  crew  to  go  ashore,  and  then  the  other  half. 

(i. — Was  there  anything  happeninl  in  the  mejintiim'?  You 
say  you  all  went  asluut?.  Did  anything  hap|H'n  in  the  mean- 
time. A. — The  first  half  would  c(mie  on  board  and  then  the 
other  half  would  go  ashore. 

Q.— What  boats  did  you  go  ashor(>  \n?  A. — I  believe  we 
went  ashoii'  in  our  own  canot's. 

i. — Is  that  correct  or  is  it  not?  I  want  a  distinct  answer 
to  that  (]iK'«ti(>n.  A. — I  believe  we  went  ashore  in  our  own 
canoes. 

ii. — Y<»u  say  yon  believe — but  are  you  positive  on  that 
point?    A. — I  believe  I  am. 


40 


50 


60 


383 


10 


JO 


(.lohii  CotHford — <'ro8H.) 

Q, — Can  .voii  louvf  out  tlu*  "bt'lieve"  uiid  8«y  (hat  you  are 
poHitivt*  tlint  you  did?  A. — I  «'an  rcmoniber  of  no  other  boatH 
wt'  had  to  Ko  atthorc  in  unlcsH  we  went  in  our  canoes.  Home 
would  an  to  the  wliarf  and  Home  would  )>;o  four  or  iive  mileH 
up  to  H])ear  tuilmon,  or  )(o  to  tlie  liill  and  picic  beriieH. 

ii. — Vou  Hov  tluit  vou  went  asiiore  in  your  own  canoes? 
A.— Yes. 

Q. — Were  tliere  any  other  boats?  A. — Tliere  was  no  oth- 
er b<»at8  I  linow  of  for  us  to  go  asliore  in.  Of  courae  some  of 
tliem  may  liave  gone  out  in  boats  bi'longing  to  otiier  schoon- 
ers. 

Q. — Was  tliere  a  boat  belonging  to  your  ship  the  "Car- 
olena"?    A. — I  think  it  was  lost  on  the  way  up. 

Q. — \>'a8  it  lost  or  was  it  not  lost?    A. — I  believe  it  was. 

(i. — Will  you  swear  it  was  lost?  A. — I  have  no  recolle<'- 
lion  of  the  boat  being  used  in  the  sea  or  of  seeing  the  boat 
Afterwards. 

(J. — Do  yon  make  it  as  your  own  statement  that  the  boat 
of  tlie  "f'arolena"  was  lost  on  the  way  up?  A. — I  believe 
tliiit  the  boat  was  lost  on  the  way  up. 

(J. — Are  you  as  sure  of  that  fact  as  you  are  sure  of  the 
other  facts  you  have  stated?  A. — I  remember  coming  on 
deck  one  moraing  and  the  stern  boat  was  gone,  but  I  do  not 
reuieniber  that  boat  being  used  in  any  shape  or  form  after- 
wards. 

il. — You  do  ivmember  that  one  day  the  stem  boat  was 
gone?     A. — One  day  it  was  knock(>d  clean  off. 
,Q      Q. — Where  were  you  then?    A. — On  the     rojid     between 
^     llesqiiiot  and  the  Fnimak  I'nss. 

Q. — You  found  the  boat  was  gone?  A. — I  have  no  recol- 
lection of  the  boat  afterwards. 

(i. — How  many  boats  were  there  on  the  "f'arolena"  when 
you  started  on  your  voyage?  A. — There  were  four  canoes 
inul  one  boat. 

(J. — Only  one  boat?     A. — Only  one. 

(J. — If  tiiat  boat  was  lost  on  the  way  uj)  it  nnyer  could  have 
not  lo  Ounalaska,  could  it?    A.— I  think  not.     I  have  no  fur- 
,Q  tiler  recolleution  of  the  boat  than  that  moniing  the  davit  was 
gone. 

(2. — Do  you  liink  it  posible  it  would  be  there  without  your 
knowing  anything  about  it  or  without  your  seeing  it?  A. — 
If  might  be  there,  but  I  think  not — at  all  events!  never  both- 
ered my  head  about  it  afterwards. 

Q. — AVas  there  anything  d<me  to  the  canoes  by  any  person 
(ifter  that?     Were  they  taken  away  anywhere?    A. — I  think 
tlie  canot's  in  Ounalaska  were  put  on  the  side  of  the  bank  on 
tlTe  grass. 
,0      Q.— When?     A.— That  I  cannot  say. 

Q. — Were  they  taken  there  before  or  after  you  used  them 
to  go  on  shore?  A. — We  ntust  have  used  them  canoes  to  go 
ii shore  in  for  our  Ashing  and  berry-picking. 

(i- — Were  they  taken  and  jMit  on  shore  where  you  desciibed 
lliciii  or  were  they  taken  afterwards?  A. — What  boats 
fonild  we  use  if  we  did  not  use  them? 

Q. — I  want  the  facts.  Were  they  put  on  shore  as  you  de- 
sriilicd  before  or  after  you  used  them  to  go  on  shore?  A. — 
Tiiey  must  have  been  put  on  shore  afterwards. 

(i- — Weix>  they  put  on  shore  thw  very  day  j-ou  arrived 
tlMi-e?    Q.— I  think  not. 

Q- — Will  you  swear  it?  A. — I  will  not  swear  anything 
iihout  the  canoes  positively. 

^i- — .Vfter  they  were  taken  and  hault>d  up  on  the  beach, 
were  they  taken  out  again  to  your  knowledge?  A. — I  re- 
incnilMT  (hat  when  I  was  in  Ounalaska  afterwards  (he  canoes 
Wile  jiut  on  the  grass. 


(jo 


'.':       '   I 


li    ii 


ES't-ff  T'  ■ 


3  84 


UiMi 


10 


20 


iJolin  CotHford — Cihwh.) 

ii. — YiHi  HMW  tlu'iu  t)ik«'U  and  liaulfd  up  thi'ir?  A. — I  miw 
tlii'iii. 

(|. — Wlu'iM'  wt'iT  .von  wIh'U  IIm-.v  wcrt'  hauled  up  tluMT? 
A. — I  do  not  know. 

ii — WfiH'  you  on  tlif  Hliip?  A. — I  cannot  rouiouib*  r  of 
any  otluT  ItontB  we  used,  unless  wc  used  these  i-an«)eH  w  iien 
we  went  sahnon  tiHiiing. 

Q. — Now  I  want  to  aHk  you  tliiH  question:  When  you 
were  .eized  at  the  time  you  stated,  were  you  catehinK  sealH? 
A. — We  were  all  out  after  seals  the  day  we  wer«'  taken. 

Q. — V.'ere  you  catching  seals  and  shooting  them  then?  .\. 
--Yes.  nil'. 

Q. — Did  you  actually  have  any  seals  in  your  own  canoes  at 
the  time?    A. — I  had  some. 

Q. — How  many?    A. — I  do  not  know. 

ii. — l>id  the  other  canoes  have  seals  in  them  also?  A. — I 
believe  they  had,  and  1  think  Ned  Hhields  had  the  most. 

Q. — Do  you  renu*ml)er  how  many  Hhields  had  that  very 
day?  A. — I  think  that  he  had  34,  but  I  am  not  sure — I 
think  that  is  the  number  he  had. 

Q. — How  many  did  you  hav«'?  A. — I  do  not  know  the 
number  I  had,  but  I  think  that  it  wan  under  20. 

Q. — Do  you  know  how  many  Dupont  had?    A. — No. 

Q. — Do  you  know  how  many  McConahey  had?     A. — No. 

(J. — Do  you  consider  lU  neals  a  good  day's  shooting  for  one 
boat?    A. — A  very  good  day. 

Q. — Is  it  not  an  exceedingly  good  day?  A. — It  is  a  very 
30  good  day. 

Q. — Is  not  '20  seals  a  good  day's  Ashing?  A. — 20  is  a  very 
good  day  and  l.'S  is  a  good  day,  too. 

Q. — What  would  y<»u  call  an  average  day?  A. — I  do  not 
know  that  you  could  make  any  average  from  the  time  you 
leave  Victoria  until  the  time  you  get  back  again. 

Q. — What  do  you  call  a  fair  day's  hunting?  A. — A  dozen 
or   15  seals. 

Q. — Were  there  many  seals  in  sight  that  day?  A. — There 
were  not  a  great  many — not  while  I  was  there. 

Q. — Did  you  catch  any  seals  the  day  before?  A. — I  think 
so,  and  the  day  before  that.  too. 

Q. — Did  you  »'atch  them  in  and  about  the  same  jdace? 
A. — In  that  same  plac<'.  I  think  we  were  becalmed  three 
days  before  we  were  s«'ized. 

Q. — And  you  caught  seals  every  day?     A. — Yes,  s'r. 

Q. — You  caught  »]uite  a  number?  A. — I  cannot  tell.  I 
will  have  to  get  that  book  if  you  want  me  to  answer  that. 

Q. — Without  reference  to  your  book,  do  you  know  that  you 
were  catching  seals  at  that  very  sjxit?  A. — W»'  were  catch- 
ing seals  there,  I  think.  We  were  becalmed  about  three 
days. 

ii. — And  you  were  making  good  catches?  A. — I  think  we 
were  <3o'ng  very  well. 

Q. — What  sort  of  weather  was  it  the  day  following?  A. — 
I  do  not  know. 

Q. — There  was  no  big  storm,  was  there?  A. — I  do  not 
think  there  was. 

Q. — Kui»i»ose  you  had  not  IxH'n  seized  on  the  1st  of  Aug- 
ust, would  yt>u  have  stopped  Ashing  right  off?  Had  vou  An- 
ished  your  own  hunting  for  the  day?  A. — I  think  we  wouTd 
hav<'  tried  to  k»H'p  right  on  until  the  20th  or  2;{rd  of  August. 

Q. — Did  yon  Anish  your  hunting  for  that  very  day  when 
the  s<'izure  to«»k  place?       A. — No. 

Q. — You  would  have  gon<'  on  more?     .\. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  you  had  a  fair  chance  of  catching  more  seals,  had 
you  not?     A, — 1  dale  say. 


40 


50 


60 


385 


U) 


20 


30 


(.l«)liii  TotHford — <'i»H8.) 

Q. — Yuii  Htiiti'd  that  Hoiut'tiiiu'8  yttii  would  catch  MoalH  iu 
cwtaln  phici'H?    A. — Th«'rt'  Ih  no  idatt*  that  in  Mirc 

Q. — How  many  waHonB  hav**  .von  Im-vh  in  Itclirint;  Sea? 
A. — I  think  I  havi"  hwn  thero  tlin'o  HcaMtnH. 

g. — Did  yoH  tivt  walH  «'V«'rv  tlnu-  .von  w«'iv  their?  A. —  I  not 
HcalH  cvt'i-y  tlni«»  I  waH  In  the  wa. 

Q. — What  waB  the  nanit*  of  the  Hclntuner  the  next  time  .von 
went  in  after  that?  A.— I  wan  in  the  "Favourite"  the  next 
.vear. 

(f. — Did  jou  get  sealB  that  .vear?     A. — YeH,  sir. 
Q.— A  lot  of  them?    A.— YeH,  Hlr. 

il. — >Vhat  veBsel  were  ,vou  In  the  next  .v<'ar?  A. — The 
••llalc.von." 

Q. — Did  .v<»u  \ivt  BealH  that  .v»'ar?      A. — I  pot  some  outBlde 
llie  sea,  but  not  loBlde. 
(i. — Why?    A. — The  captain  would  not  «(»  In  I  believe. 
Q. — You  cannot  tell  whetlu>r  you  wouhl  pet  them  or  not 
if  .von  went  in?      A. — No. 

Q. — Were  you  In  the  sea  in  otluT  years?     A. — I   waH  in 
Itelii-inp  Sea  in  the  Allie  I  Alper. 
Q._\Vl,at  .vear?     A.— In  18tH)  I  think  it  was. 
Q. — Did  you  get  a  fair  catch  that  .vear?    A. — No,  we  did 
not  pet  many, 
(i. — Were  you  seized?     A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Were  you  warned?    A. — I  do  not  know  what  warninp 
the  captain  got. 
(J. — You  went  out  of  the  sea  earlier  that  year?     A. — Yes, 
,„  sir,  we  started  aAvay  soon  afterwaiils. 

i}. — How  long  w«'re  you  in?    A. — That  I  cannot  say. 
Q. — Did  you  see  +he  cutter?     A. — We  were  in  Ounalaska 
l»revious  to  this,  and  I  daresay  we  saw  the  cutter  in  there. 

i}. — What  other  vessel  were  vou  on  in  IJehrinp  Sea?     \. — 
The  "Sea  Lion." 
Q. — Did  .vou  stay  the  full  season  then?    A. — No,  sir. 
Q. — What  happened  tlicn?      A. — Ordered  home. 
Q. — How  long  were  you  in  then?     A. — About  a  week. 
Q. — Did  you  catch  any  seals?     A. — Six  or  eipht  or  some- 
thinp  like  that. 

Q. — What  time  of  the  j'ear  was  that?    A. — I  think  it  was 
in  July. 

(J. — Was  it  not  shortly  aftei-  you  pot  in  tliat  you  were  or- 
dered home?     A. — I  think  it  was  in  July  we  came. 

(}. — Is  there  any  other  .v<'>;r  during  which  .vou  sta.vcd  in  the 
full  season?    A. — I   was  in   the  Allie   I.  Alger  alonp  with 
('apt.  Miner  a  full  year. 
Q.— What  .voar?    A.— I  think  it  was  in  1891. 
Q. — Did  you  pet  seals?     A. — Yes,  sir. 
(). — Were  you  interfered  with  at  all?     A. — No,  sir. 
(i. — What  time  did  you  stay  in  then?     A. — I  am  not  siiiv 
but   I  think  we  sta.ved  in  till  somewliere  about  the  8th  of 
Seiitcmber,  cu-  in  that  neiphlMU'liood. 
(}. — Yon  got  seals  then?     A. — Yes,  sir. 
O. — So  that  it  a)>epars  that  every  time  you  were  in  the  sou 
and  sta.ved  anythinp  like  the  full  season  .vou  pot  seals.  There 
appears  to  be  a  certain  amount  of  certainty     about     it.     It 
soeius  to  be  certain  that  .vou  will  get  seals  if  .vou  are  not  in- 
terfered with  iu  nehrinp  Sea?       A. — It  is  certain  that  .vou 
will  get  seals,  but  there  is  no  certainty  about  the  amount. 

Q. — It  is  almost  certain  that  you  will  get  a  certain  number 
of  seals?  A. — Yes,  sir,  it  is  almost  certain  that  .vou  will  get 
some  seals  there. 

Q. — What  was  your  catch  In  1801  when  .vou  were  in  tlu' 
".\llie  I.  Alger"?     A. — I  forgot  the  number. 

Q.  -Was  it  2,000  or  H.OOO  about?  A.— I  am  not  sure  but 
T  tliiiik  we  caught  somewhere  between  2,500  and  2,700. 


40 


5c 


60 


t'll 


imt' 


'HI  t> 


II 


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Ik' 


»  illilil,  I 

SI!''"'"' 


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30 


40 


50 


60 


386 

(John  ('otHfonl — ('i'omh.) 

<i. -•  llow  iiiiiiiy  lioiitH  had  that  Vfsm'l?    A. — Hlx  bouts. 
y. — That  w at*  not  a  bad  «'atrli  for  that  vt'BHel?     A. — \o. 
Q.-Ho  .von  «all  that  an  t'xtni  goo<l  nitcli?     A. — I  on-l  U 
very  ijoojI. 

(i. — Th<'r«'  waH  nothing  v«'r.v  oxtra  in  II?  A. — Thcw  whm 
untiling  v«*ry  extra  about  it  btM-nuHe  Dan  M«-L«>an  ranglit 
Honifthing  ovi>r  4,tHH)  one  si'nHon. 

(i. — And  whi-n  .von  get  2,50<>  you  fall  that  mtching  "xonM'" 
walH?    A.— 1  think  liJtM)  Ih  very  good. 

(J. — I  iM'lh'Vf  that  in  that  Banif  .vear  you  hikiiR  of  thcro 
were  other  veHHels  hunting  near  .von.  Do  .vou  remember  t  !ie 
"Viva"?  A. — I  do  not  bellt-ve  I  huw  the  "\'iva"  that  year. 
Q. — You  have  had  Home  exi»erien«'e  in  neal  tiHhIng.  Tan 
you,  nn  far  an  you  know,  point  out  anywhere  in  tlie  world  a 
lu'tter  i»lae«>  t(»  ttnh  HealH  than  ju»t  about  where  you  were 
when  the  "Canih'na"  was  Heized?  A. — It  is  only  HUp]Mmiti(in 
on  my  part  an  to  about  where  the  "Carolena"  was. 

Q. — Well,  Hho  wOR  a  few  hours'  rail  from  Ounnhiska?  A. 
— I  think  Hhe  waH  further  than  that. 

Q. — You  sailed  an  afternoon,  you  8:".y,  in  tow  of  the 
"UuHh,"  and  you  got  in  to  OunulaHka  the  next  moniing?  A. 
— I  do  not  know  whether  it  was  in  the  foreno<m  or  after- 
noon we  got  to  OunnhiRkn. 

(i. — You  w«'re  feventy-flve  miles  as  n  matter  of  faet  from 
Ounnlaskn,  when  yon  were  seized.  That  is  what  the  official 
statement  says.  Tan  you  point  me  out  a  better  spot  for  the 
Ashing  of  seals  than  just  at  that  place?  A. — I  have  never 
Ix-^n  the  master  of  a  vessel  and  I  cannot  say  what  i»articnlar 
s]iot  is  good  for  S4>aling. 

Q. — You  have  made  some  talk  abont  the  provisions  that 
were  on  board  the  "Carolena."  Did  .vou  ever  look  at  them 
t<»  He«'  what  quantit.v  of  jtrovisions  were  there?     A. — No.  sir. 

Q. — What  did  you  live  on  on  board  of  that  ship?  A. — I 
have  not  s«H>n  much  difference  in  the  provision  bill  on  board 
that  ship  and  any  other  I  have  been  on  board. 

Q. — Tlie  provisi«ms  on  the  "Carolena"  wen»  about  as  good 
as  they  were,  we  will  say,  on  the  "Allie  I.  Alger."  They 
weiv  about  the  same  thing,  were  the.v  not?  A. — No,  sir,  they 
were  not. 

Q.— Were  they  better  or  worm'?  A.— The  "Allie  I.  Alger" 
was  the  best. 

Q. — Yon  made  the  stat«'nient  that  you  did  not  see  much 
difference  betwwn  the  provisitms  of  the  ships?  A. — There 
is  not  mu«h  difrer<'n<'e. 

Q. — What  kind  of  food  did  you  have  on  the  "Carolena"? 
\\'liat  did  you  eat?  A. — Of  course  we  had  bacon,  ham,  pork, 
beef,  bread,  butter,  ten  and  coffw;  that  is  about  it. 

Q. — Did  you  have  any  canned  vegetables?  A. — The  can- 
ned goods  may  have  been  there,  but  I  do  not  remember. 

Q. — You  do  not  remember  about  the  canned  vegetables? 
A. — 1  d«»  not  remember  much  of  them.  Canned  vegetables 
is  som<>thing  that  is  a  rai'«'  article  on  board  of  a  sclioon«'r  for 
the  10  years  I  have  been  sailing.  T  do  not  remember  »'X- 
actly  what  was  on  the  table. 

Q. — Did  you  have  <orned  beef?  A. — T  dare  say  we  had 
corn«>d  beef  at  times. 

Q. — And  soniftinu'H  yon  had  fresh  bevf?  A. — I  believe  we 
ha«l  fresh  V»eef  when  we  left  Victorisi. 

Q. — And  there  was  jiilot  br«'ad?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Do  you  know  how  man.v  boxes  of  pilot  bread  there  was 
there.      .\. — I  dare  say  there  was  five  or  six. 

Q. — Where  were  they  kept?      A. — I  don't  know. 

Q. — Were  you  ev«'r  where  the  jtilot  bread  was  kept?  A. — 
We  sli'itt  in  the  hold,  and  from  about  the  centre  of  the  sliip 
was  our  sleeping  comj)ai'1ment  and  cooking  stove,  and  tluTC 


I J 


3" 


'|0 


50 


Go 


387        ■    ■ ;. 

(<l«»liii  <  '((tHforil — <  'roHH.) 

\v(i8  qtiito  a  lot  lukon  olT  for  the  ciibin.      I  Hliould  think  thciv 
would  bi-  no  room  for  nioro  than  flvo  or  Hix  boxes. 

(j. — Do  you  know  tinythiiig  about  tho  size  of  thi*  boxi'8  of  pi- 
lot bread?  A. — No,  8ir,  I  do  not.  I  paid  uo  attention  to 
liiat  and  only  judgo  there  were  live  or  six  boxes. 

Q. — There  was  Hour  on  board  too?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  the  (lour  v.as  in  sackM?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — It  is  always  a  fact  that  flour  on  these  voyages  is  taken 
ill  sacks?  A. — I  cannot  say  that  I  ever  saw  any  Hour  in 
barrels. 

(j. — Ah  a  matter  of  fact,  it  Ih  always  put  in  KackH  «mi  board 
Rliip?      A. — I  have  alwaj's  sen  it  in  sacks. 

Q.— Now  you  were  asked  a  question  as  to  whether  there 
were  not  also  provisions  stored  in  the  cabin?  A. — There 
may  have  Iwen  some  stored  away  in  the  locker,  but  I  did  not 
see  anything  of  that.      I  know  the  butter  was  kept  there. 

Q. — Did  you  go  through  the  cabin?  A. — I  was  there  sev- 
eral times.  I  was  often  asked  by  the  captain  to  go  down 
and  yarn  with  him  and  he  used  to  come  forward  generally 
and  yarn  with  ns. 

(j. — Yoa  d<>scribi>  that  gun  as  a  Honehill  gun — is  that  an 
English  gun?      A. — I  think  so. 

Q. — And  you  say  there  were  no  canoes  when  you  left  Vie- 
loria?      A. — No. 

Q. — And  the  canot-s  were  taken  on  board  at  Clayoquot? 
A.— Yes.  sir. 

Q. — IIow  far  is  Clayoquot  from  here?  A. — It  is  about  150 
miles,  or  in  tli.it  neighborhood,  on  the  west  coast  of  Van- 
couver Island. 

Q. — You  say  you  bought  canoes  there?  A. — The  canoes 
were  bought  in  Clayoquot. 

Q. — These  canoes  were  left  in  Ounalaska  and  I  am  pretty 
positive  it  was  our  own  canoes  that  we  w«'re  off  cruising  in. 

Q.— Were  you  present  when  the  canoes  were  paid  for?  A. 
I  ui.werstand  tliat  . 

Q.— Answer  the  question  please.  A. — I  did  not  see  the 
money  handed  over,  if  that  is  what  you  mean. 

Q.— Did  you  see  who  handed  the  money  over?  A. — No. 
sir. 

Q_.Yon  were  not  present?  A.— Not  when  the  money  was 
handed  over. 

Q._What  were  the  sizes  of  these  canoes?  A.— I  cannot 
.sjiv—i  did  not  lake  the  measurement  of  them. 

Q._T  would  like  you  to  tell  as  nearly  as  you  can  what  was 
ilie  size  of  your  own  canoe,  for  instance?  A. — As  I  never 
nicasured  it  I  canot  say,  but  mine  was  the  largest  of  tlu'  lot 
1  take  it. 

Q.—Was  there  any  difference  in  them?  A.— Mine  was  a 
little  larger  and  newer  and  better  than  the  others. 

Q.— Cannot  you  tell  me  within  a  foot  or  two  as  to  the 
length  of  your  own  canoe?      A. — No.  sir. 

Q.— Or  as  to  the  breadth?  A.— 1  cannot  tell  you  the  size 
of  it,  but  if  I  saw  another  canoe  I  <ould  tell  you  in  conipari 
son. 

Q._\Vould  it  be  the  length  of  this  table?  A.— Inside  of 
a  room  things  look  larger  than  they  do  in  ttie  open  air. 

Q.-And  vou  cannot  tell  whether  it  would  t)e  the  lencth 
of  this  table?  A.— No,  sir,  1  cannot,  but  if  I  saw  another 
<"!inoe  I  could  make  n  comparison  with  it. 

Q.— Did  the  "Thornton"  and  the  Onward  have  cano.s  at 
Ounalaska?  A.— Tiio  "Thornton."  I  believe,  had  boats  and 
I  tie  Onward  had  canoes. 

Q. — IIow  were  these  canoes  made  that  you  had?  T  want 
vou  to  giv»>  me  a  description.  A. — They  are  generally  dug 
(lilt  or  burned  out  by  the  Indians. 


>rMW^'X 


iii'./i 


iii"fw^r^'    • 


-44lM><') 


10 


30 


40 


SO 


60 


391 

(.lolin  CotHfoitl — CnmH.) 

Q. — And  wliat  wiih  tliiH  8|H>oinl  niiiot>  (lia(  you  had  made 
«»f?      A.— ('«'dar.  I  IkHcvo. 

y. — Was  It  OP  wan  It  not  ri'dar?  A. — I  Ik'Hi'Vc  It  waH  »•«•• 
dar.  It  waH  dug  out  tlir  Hanif  au  any  o(h<>r  Indian  canoe. 
It  Ih  ^:*'n«Tal!.v  in  thn>«>  |)l*'ct>H — tIrHt  tlu>  ranoc  and  then  tliu 
bww  and  Ntorn  air  du;;  out  aftorwardM. 

(J. — WaH  it  a  wt'lj-nnido  canof?      A. — \vn. 

Q. — Was  It  as  ^ooA  a  cnnm'  an  you  wanted?      A. — Yi'h. 

Q. — Could  you  iii'i  any  hHter?  A. — I  do  not  tliink  It- -at 
leant  I  wait  well  HallHlled  with  it. 

Q. — Ih  it  the  Hanie  ilaHH  of  ennoe  that  Ih  uned  now  for  Heal 
iuK?      A. — I  think  it  wan  a  nhade  Inrfjer  If  anything;. 

(J. — And  (•onHe«|uently  a  little  more  nteady?  A. — U«  iiij: 
larK«'r  it  would  be  a  little  more  steady. 

Q. — Therefore  better  for  HealiiiR?  A. — 1  do  not  know  that 
it  Ih  any  better  for  HealiuK  in. 

Q. — .\nd  that  Kood  canoe,  you  nay.  <Hily  cont  fll?  A. — That 
Ih  the  |tric«>  I  think  wiih  nnked  for  it. 

Q.— Will  you  Hwear  that  wan  the  jirice?  A.— To  the  bent 
of  my  memory  that  \h  the  price. 

Q.— Have  you  any  remembrance  aH  to  what  wiih  the  jtrice? 
.\. — I  believe  to  th«»  bcHt  of  my  knowledire  that  wan  the  price. 

Q. — Have  yon  any  recollection  at  all  iih  to  the  prici'?  A.  — 
There  were  a  few  wordn  between  Mr.  Ih'chtel  and  I  about  my 
canoe  coRtliiK  more  llian  (he  othei-H.  and  he  aHked  me  why  I 
did  not  f;et  an  cheap  a  one  an  the  otliei'R. 

Q. — Have  vou  aiiv  recollecthm  as  to  what  tlu'  price  wan? 
A.— I  believe  It  wanfll. 

Q. — Do  you  Hwear  to  that?      A.— A     near  «h  I  remember. 

Q._l)o  you  Hwear  it  wan  about  f  1 '  A.— That  la  what  I 
believe  it  wiih. 

Q.— Will  .v<ni  Hwear  that  the  canoe  wan  not  22  feet  huij;? 
A. — I  HU]ipoKi>  it  wiih  in  that  neifjliborhood. 

Q. — t'oiild  you  buy  a  canoe  like  that  today  for  fll?  A.— 
1  do  not  tliink  you  could. 

Q. — How  much  would  you  pay  for  it  now?  A. — 1  have  no 
idea,  but  I  think  the  ju-ice  of  cantM'H  in  raiwKl  on  the  west 
coaKt.  The  IndiaiiH  want  more  for  their  labor  at  the  present 
time  than  they  did  then. 

il. — Would  a  caiMH'  of  that  descrijiticm  be  worth  |4(MI(>  to- 
day?    .\. —  I  do  not  think  it. 

(i.— Would  it  be  wortli  *'_'.'»  today?  A.— If  you  asked 
some  of  the  captains  who  have  been  on  the  schooners  tliey 
could  answer  that  qiiestiiui  better  tluui  I. 

Q. — Well.  I  do  liap]ien  lo  hav<'  asked  senile  of  the  captaiMK 
Do  yon  know  tlie  valu«*  «»f  canot's  in  lSS(i?  A. — I  offered  a 
canoe  in  1HS»!  .'{'»  fei-t  l<uif{  and  all  ribb«'d  for  flO  and  I  conld 
not  in't  a  buyer  for  it. 

Q. — I  dare  say  that  canoe  was  no  good;  but  I  ask  you  if  you 
know  anything;  about  tlie  price  in  1SS(!?  .\. — I  asked  tlic 
price  in  Mesiiiiiat  tlie  year  before  when  I  was  ir,  on  a  jiros- 
jiecting  trip,  and  I  got  a  very  fine  canoe  for  due  k  Hho(>^inK. 

(i. — How  loiifj  was  tliat  canoe?     A. — IS  feet. 

ij. — Did  you  tliink  that  was  a  jjomi  sealing  canoe?  A. — Jt 
was  for  duck  shootin>t. 

(i. — It  would  not  do  for  s<'alin^  would  it?     A. — No. 

(i. — Vou  say  (hat  Mr.  IJechlel  went  uj)  in  this  scliooner? 
A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  <{o  to  sea  with  Mr.  IJechtt'l  on  any  other  oc- 
casiim?    A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Your  allegation  Is  tliat  he  went  u]»  in  (hat  schooner  to 
riayoipiot?     A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — How  lonij  did  you  stay  in  <'layo(|uot?  A. — Five  days 
or  a  week,  or  soiiiewheie  around  a  wei'k. 

Q.--Did  your  (np(ain  keep  a  log?    A.— I  think  he  did. 


20 


3«y 

(j.— Ami  lu-  would  ftitfi-  ill  IiIh  Um  wliiit  wiih  Inking  pliirr 
I'lirli  (liiv?     A. —  I  «lo  not  lliiiik  ko  in  tin-  IiiiiImiI'. 

H. — Would  it  not  Htatc  how  lout;  .vou  wvn-  in  tlio  luirltoi? 
A. — Y«'B,  Hir. 

(^ — And  if  tliat  lo^  wiih  |irodu*-«-d  it  would  hIiow  wliftlwr 
III*  WIIH  tliiTc  or  not?    A. — It  ou^lit  to. 

(j. — At  all  I'Vt'UtH,  yo\i  Hay  you  wt  nt  out  with  Mr.  Iti'ditcl 
iiiid  Htii.v«'d   tlicri'  for  four  or  tlvc  dayn?     A. — I   darfHiiy   it 
'^   waH  altout  that. 

(i.— Can  you  t«'ll  nif  tlu»  day  vou  h-ft  Virtoria?  A.— N'.:, 
sir. 

(j. — Can  you  tidl  ni4>  liow  limK  it  took  you  to  K«'t  to  Itflirinj; 
Sea?  A. — I  think  from  llie  time  we  h'ft  we  wt-rt'  ahoiit  \'> 
diiyH  ^vttiiiK  to  tht>  Hca,  tlial  in  iih  near  an  I  roiild  ^ih-hh. 

ii. — From  wlifH'?    A. — From  ('layo)|uot. 

i}. — Vol!  Htarl«'d  out  by  nayiiiu  tliat  you  wi'n-  liir«>d.  Wlio 
were  you  hired  by  tirHt?  A. — In  tlic  tlrnt  |tla<«'  Ned  HIi{cI<Ih 
s|iok«'  t<»  m«'  and  tlicn  Mr.  MiiUHic  Hpokc  to  me  and  tiii'ii  Mr. 
,>iuiiHi«'  and  Mr.  Hcchtcl  i-am**  to^rftlicr. 

(^ — Wliat  did  Sliit'ldH  nay?  A. — lit*  wantt'd  me  to  (;o 
Ht'iilint;  in  th*'  hcii. 

Q. — IMd  you  roiiH«MilV     A. — Not  at   tlrnl. 

(i. — WlKtm  tlid  you  hci'  lu'xt?     .\. — Mr.  MiiiiHi**  wan  next. 

(2. — WluMv?     A. — In   KobiiiHon'H  lihukHinith  hIioj). 

i]. — Wiih  Im-  alom'?     A. — He  wiih  iiloni'  tlic  tirnt  tiiii#. 

(2. — What  took  jilacc  bctwt'cii  you  and  Munnif?  A. — lie 
wanted  mt*  to  \io  on  tin-  stliooner. 

(i. — Did  y<Mi  i-onHciit.     A. — Xo.  nir,  not  tlicn, 
^°       Q.— IHd  you  n-fuHt'?     A. — I  did  not  irfuKc  oiitritjlit.  liiit  T 
said  I  did  not  caro  about  KoiiiK  or  HoiiiHliin^'  to  tliat  t-tTctt. 
liiit  aft«'r  a  wliilf  I  «onHi*nt<'d  to  };o. 

Q. — IMd  you  (-(uiwiit  at  tinit  intt'rvicw?     A. — Xo.  nir. 

(j. — Hid  you  ^o  away  Htatiii|j;  to  liim  tliat  you  would  i^o  or 
lliat  you  would  not  no?  A. — I  do  not  tliink  I  ajini'd  citlM'r 
way. 

("i.— You  lift  it  oiM-n?     A.— Y»'rt. 

(i. — Wlio  did  you  iiicot  next?  A. — Tlit-y  liotli  tame  in  tlic 
shoji.  and  I  Bn|)|ioHi'  I  nii(;ht  have  met  Xed  Sliit'ldn  in  the 
iiieantinie. 

(i. — And  the  next  time  Mr.  Muiisie  and  Mr.  Iteclilel  eaiii< 
(ofjether,  you  nay?     A. — Tliey  eanie  tojfellier  when   I  agreed 

to   JfO. 

(i. — Had  you  known  Mr.  Ht'clitel  before?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i. — Intimately?    A. — Xot  intimately. 

ii. — Were  you  friendly  witli  liiiii?     A. — I  was  on  speakiii); 
lirnis  with  him.     The  man  had  alwayH  treated  me  well  and 
I  did  not  see  why  I  Hhould  not  be  friendly  disponed  to  liim. 
;()       *i- — l*'tl  vou  know  Mr.  Munsie  Itetter  than  vou  knew  Mr. 
nechtel?     A.— Xo.  Hir. 

(■i. — They  eame  to>;ether  at  the  same  time?     A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — And  Mr.  INrunsie  begiin  to  talk  about  that  voyafte?  A. — 
I  think  he  was  the  first  one  to  tqieak;  tliey  eame  tojiether  and 
asked  nie  in  repird  to  gointr  sealing;- 

Q. — You  tliink  Mr.  Muns'e  spoke  first, — and  what  did  he 
ask  you?  A. — lie  asked  me  if  I  was  Roinfj  on  the  "Parolena" 
sailing. 

(}. — What  did  yon  say?     A. — I  eannot  t«'ll  you  word  for 
uij  word,  but  it  was  sometiiint;  or  another  about  {joinj;  8«'alinu; 
on  the  'Taiolena." 

0. — Did  he  ask  you  to  go  on  the  "Carolena"?     A. — Yes, 

Q. — Did  yon  consent?     A. — 1  agreed  to  go  th«>n. 

O. — Did  Kechtel  try  to  persuade  you  to  go?  A. — They 
both  persuaded  me  to  go,  they  both  s]»oke  to  me  about  going. 

Q. — And  then  you  consented,  and  you  say  IJechtel  went 
down  the  west  coast  with  you?     A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q.— TTow  did  he  get  back?     A. — I  dcm't  know. 


40 


ii 

m 


m 


Hi 


i'M 


vfl^!!l  '|"j'".   ' 


UIM;   ■; 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


(.lolin  Totsfoid — 1{(  tlircrt — Ur-oroHw.) 

(i.— Yon  left   liiiii  tlun"?     A.— H«'  wa»  h-ft  tlu'io. 

(i. — You  iiii};lit  as  well  W  cornMt  nltoiit  lliat  and  brin^xtlic 

Uc-dirtM't  (>xainina1i(iFi  hy  Mr.   Dickinmin: 

(J. — Yon  Hi»ok«'  of  bt'ini?  on  the  "Allie  I.  Alger"  in  1891,  and 
takin;;  some  2,r)(!(»  skins?  A. — 1  think  there  were  soniethin;; 
in  that  neigliborhtiud? 

Q. — Were  those  all  taken  in  Kehring  Sea  or  were  tliere 
some  taken  on  the  t-oast?      A. — Some  on  the  ooast. 

Q. — How  man.v?  A. — 1  don't  know,  bnt  1  think  I  have  an 
ae<-onnt  at  home  of  what  we  jjot  on  the  eoast. 

Q- — Yon  mi{rlil  as  well  be  correet  abont  that  and  hrinp  the 
book  this  afternoon.  A. — 1  hav»'  not  seen  it  lately/bnt  if  I  can 
tind  it  I  will  bring  it.  I  saw  the  «-ount  of  seals  we  had  on 
the  "Carolena"  at  home  yesterday.  If  I  ean  tind  the  book  1 
will  bring  it. 

Q- — You  sa.v  yon  got  •J,r>(M»  all  together.  <'an  yon  give  us 
the  number  eaught  on  the  coast?  A.— I  would'not  like  to 
say  otThand.  and  I  would  rather  wait  until  this  afternoon 
when  I  will  bring  the  book  if  I  can  tind  it;  there  have  been  so 
many  different  catches  niad«>  on  the  coast  that  I  have  for- 
gotten. 

Q. — You  spoke  of  -i  si>ace  in  the  hold  of  tlu'  ship;  was  the 
pla<'e  the  men  occupi«'d  partitioned  off  from  the  hold?  A. — 
No,  sir. 

Q. — There  was  no  t'orcastle  or  room  tluTe?  A. — No.  The 
men  tliat  steered  had  to  go  down  the  main  hatch  the  same 
as  we  did,  and  then  go  forward  into  tlu'  bunk. 

Q. — Where  was  the  main  hatch?  .\. — .About  the  centre  of 
the  vi'ssel  half  way  b»'tween  the  bow  and  the  stern. 

Q. — How  many  men  slejit  in  there?  A. — Flight.  There 
was  one  that  slept  tlu  le.  1  think,  in  the  first  place,  and  it  was 
too  close,  and  he  went  into  the  (*abin. 

Q. — About  how  mucli  sjyace  was  occupied  for  the  men?  .\. 
— Ther«'  must  have  been  pretty  near,  from  the  centre  of  the 
vessel  forward,  al)out   one-half. 

(J.— Nearly  half  of  the  ship?  A.— H  would  not  be  half 
of  the  shi])  as  regards  area,  bnt  it  would  be  in  lengtTi  about 
half  of  the  vessel. 

Q. — Abont  what  space  was  occupied  by  the  cabin?  A. — I 
think  the  cabin  must  hav<'  Iteen  10  or  V2  feet  long. 

Q. — And  <'xtending  about  the  whole  width  of  the  ship?  A. 
— W«'ll,  there  were  lockers  around  the  cabin  and  under  th»> 
seats. 

Q. — There  was  no  si)ace  between  the  sheathing  of  tlie  ship 
and  the  cal»in  on  the  side?  A. — Not  that  I  know  of;  in 
fact  I  did  not  examine  it,  bnt  tliere  might  have  been. 

Q. — At  the  time  yon  were  at  Ounalaska,  were  there  other 
ships  with  you  there?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

()  Vl  it  wer<  tliey*'  Th"re  was  tl;e  "<"  nword"  and  the 
"Thornton"  and  anotlier. 

Q. — Was  the  '-(Jeo.  I»nke"  there?  A. — She  was  down 
from  US  a  little  piece.  There  was  a  little  steam  schooner  cal 
led  the  "drace  Darling."  or  the  "Grace,"  or  something  of 
that  kind. 

Q. — Did  yon  lie  close  togetlier?  A. — Pretty  close  to 
gether. 

Q. —  In  the  sealing  expedition,  did  McConnehey  or  yon  get 
(he  most  skins?  A. — I  think  I  got  mon*  than  Mcronnehey 
did;  but  Diipont  and  Shields  got  mor<>  than  I  did. 

Q. — When  yon  were  seized  you  sny  that  darkness  was 
coming  on?  A. — It  was  getting  on  towards  evening,  as  near 
as  I  can  rememlx-r.  It  was  getting  on  to  dark  and  T  hand- 
ed the  rifl«'s  and  the  shotguns  on  board  tin*  cutter. 


30 


39  < 
(John  Colsford — Ut'dirt'cl — Kc-irosh.) 

Q. — Tl'.o  da.v's  woi-k  was  ov«'r?  A. — It  wsih  Bt'KinR  on 
towiirdH  evening',  hut,  of  fours*',  we  couhl  havo  H(>ah-d  a  litth- 
lonpM',  hut  not  niurh  longer,  as  near  as  I  <'an  reineniher.  TIu>y 
wouhl  not  h't  nie  put  th(>  ritle  and  Hhotgiin  on  hoard  the 
schooner,  and  they  made  me  tak«'  it  on  the  eutter. 

He-cross-examination  hy  Mr.  Peters: 

io  il. — Tlwre  was  a  (luestion  tluU  I  omitted  to  ask 
you.  You  made  a  statt'uient  witli  regard  to  liavin}; 
to  pay  your  way  from  San  Francisco  to  Victoria,  and  your 
liotel  hill  in  Frisco.  How  did  you  pay  for  that?  A. — (.'om- 
infj  on  from  'Frisco. 

Q  -  \*'ho8e  fares  did  you  pay?  A. — I  Rave  the  watch  to 
tile  purser  to  pay  the  board  of  a  niun  named  .John  Dallas,  and 
he  pahl  m»'  afterward.       He  belonged  to  the  "Thornton." 

Q. — Who  else  did  you  pay  for?       A. — For  Mct^arther  or 
.\rtlnir  or  some  sucli  name  as  that. 
20       Q. — Did  y«)U  pay  llie  board  of  any  of  the  men  on  board  the 
"Carolena?"       A. — That   is   the  only  man   besides  myself   I 
think  I  paid  foi*  in  San  Francis«'o. 

Q. — You  did  not  pay  the  hotel  bills  of  anyon(>  t-lse?  A. — 
No,  sir. 

Q. — They  were  paid  by  somebody  else?       A. — Yes. 

Q. — By  Mr.  Munsie,  I  believ*-. 

The  (Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'niled  Slates: — That 
is  hardly  a  fair  (|nestion,  Mr.  I'eters. 

lly  Mr.  Peters:  Q. — At  all  events  yoti  say  you  paid  your 
own  fare  and  the  fare  of  that  one  man?      A. — Yes. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  desire  to  juit  in,  may  it  please  theTom- 
niissiouers.  what  my  learned  friend  admits  is  as  described 
liere,  a  "certified  copy  of  the  report  of  the  committ«'e  of  the 
Honourable  the  Privy  Council,  approved  by  his  Excellency 
tlie  Administrator  of  the  <«o\ernnient  in  Council  on  the  2;{rd 
day  of  September,  ISSt!."       It  is  as  follows: 

Copy  of  letter  from  Janu-s  Ogilvie,  nuistt'r  of  schooner  "('aro- 
lena." 

Schooner  "(Carolena,"  Ounalaska,  Aug.  G,  IS)»(!. 
Dear  Sir:  The  Inited  States  stcanur"(.'orwin"  boarded  and 
took  charge  of  the  schooner  in  latitude  55  degrtn-s  50'  north, 
ioiigltude  ItiX  «hgrei's  5;{'  \Vest;  they  took  all  the  fire-arms 
fioni  the  schooner.  I  asked  why  (hey  did  so;  they  said  for  kil- 
ling female  seals  and  carrying  firearms.  They  towed  the 
••rii(»rnton"  and  "Onward"  in  at  the  same  time.  I  have 
50  gdt  (;s(!  skins  on  board;  "Thornton,"  4(14;  "Onward,"  !KM).  I 
liave  heard  nothing  of  the  "Pa(hfind(>r"  in  the  Hehring  Sea; 
she  was  seen  oft"  Sitka  coming  ni».  It  was  on  August  1st.  at 
r.  p.m..  they  took  charge  of  the  schoon«'r;  canoes  and  white 
iiicu  will  n()t  go;  all  the  schocmers  that  have  canoes  have  got 
Iroin  nine  to  II  canoes.  The  Ameiican  schooner  "San 
IMif-o"  is  in  here,  they  have  taken  all  her  skins  and  sails  on 
sliore:  5110  skins.  Thirtt'en  days  after  we  left  Clayoqn<»t  w«' 
were  in  Hehriug  Sea,,  we  lost  the  boat  from  the  stern. 

August  7.  1SS«. 
'"'       The  Company's  steamer  "St.  Paul"  will  leave  to-inorrow; 
(lie  captain  of  the  "San  Diego"  and  all  hands  are  going  down 
ill  her.      I  will  send  this  letter  by  her. 

Your  truly,  .lAMER  OOILVIR. 

Re-direct  examination  by  Mr.  Dickinson: 

Q.— Have  von  fixed  flu'  number  of  si  nls  you  were  paid  for? 
A.— 1.-.4.  1  believe. 


■|0 


^  i 


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I 


li 


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!!•■ 


*' 


! 


^m,. 


■  ■  ■ ; ,  I 


U->ir^ 


m 


JWwn 


piiBFri'i^i  "I'p^ 


392 
(.I(»lm  ('((tsford — Ki'-dircct — Hc-crosN.) 

Q. — You  fixod  it  from  .vour  mt'inoriinduiu?     A. — V«'h.  8ir. 

Q. — Tlu'  iiu>inoriiii(luin  madt'  at  the  tiiuc?     A. — Yi's,  sir. 

Q. — Could  you  fix  froiu  the  in(>uiorandunt  tlio  date  tliat  von 
wont  to  tli«>  Bclirinfj  Sea  in  188(!?  A. — No,  sir,  I  never  put 
tlM>  date  down. 

(J. — Or  tlu'  date  tliat  .vou  Hailed  fri)ni  Victoiia?  A. — No, 
sir. 

'O       Recmss-exaniination  b.v  Mr.  IN'ters: 

Q. — In  this  memorandum  boolv,  Mr.  f'otsford,  .vou  liave  at 
11m'  bottom  of  it  t)u'  followinjf: 

"Keeeived  from  Jolin  Cotsford  104  seals,  James  Ogllvie, 
sehooner  "Carolena." 

(■an  .vou  tell  me  as  a  nuitter  of  fact  wlietlu>r  that  js  James 
Ojlllvie's  writing'?    A. — That  is  the  eaj)tain's  writing. 

Q. — That  is  tlu'  captain's  writing?  A. — Yes,  that  memor 
nudum  in  ink  at  the  bottom  of  the  page  is  Captain  Oj^ilvie's 
20  writing. 

Mr.  Peters: — Do  .v<»u  put  in  that  memorandum  book,  Mr. 
Dickinson? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  do  not  put  it  in;  I  merel.v  refer  to  it  to 
refresh  the  memory  of  the  witness  as  to  the  date. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  would  like  to  ask  this  witness  one  »|uestion 
with  n'fjard  lo  the  construclion  of  the  canoes.     1  hav»'  a  pic 
ture  h(-re,  and  I  will  ask  the  witness  whether  that  is  sonu'- 
20   tiling  of  the  descnpti<ni  of  the  canoes  used  in  sealiuij. 

(To  witness.)  (J. — Look  at  the  photoj;raph  and  see  if  that 
is  correct?  A. — That  is  a  descripti«m  of  the  canoe  we  use  for 
sealing. 

Q. — Is  that  a  fair  reprcsenlalion  of  Ihe  canoe  .vou  use  for 
sealiu};?     A. — Yes. 

Pi«'lure  of  sealinj;  canoe  received  and  marked  as  ''Exhibit 
LT>,  CS.R..  Claim  No.  1." 


UlMt 


50 


40       Redirect  examination  by  Mr.  Dickinson: 

Q. — Judfjinjj  from  the  i»ictni'e.  dcM's  the  jucture  I  now  show 
.vou  represent  about  the  size  of  the  canoes  you  use  in  Healing? 
.\. — That  is  about  the  size  jud<;inr;  from  the  jticture. 

(J. — A\'ere  you  in  Ouiuilaska  in  1HS7?     A. — \o,  sir. 

(■i. — Did  you  ever  see  Ihe  "Caroh'ua"  in  Ounalaska  after 
you  left  hei'  thei'e?  A. — Yes.  sir,  I  saw  her  the  fii'st  vear  I 
was  in  (he  "A Hie  I.  .Mfjer"  in  18H!». 

(}.— The  "Cai  lena"  was  still  there?  A.— She  was  still 
there. 

i}. — Were  there  any  other  ships  there?  A. — I  think  the 
"Onward"  was  hin;,'  there  too.  but  I  did  not  pay  much  !it 
tention  to  it. 

ti. — Look  at  the  picture  I  have  shown  you  and  se<'  if  .vou 
can  select  fnun  the  veswis  represented  in  that  pictuiv  the 
"Carolena"  on  the  beach  at  Ounalaska?  A. — }  cannot  say 
positively,  but  the  second  one  there  looks  the  nearest  one  to 
me. 

Q. — Did  you  see  any  canoes  on  the  banks  that  you  recojf- 
nize  as  the  canoes  belon^iu);  to  the  "Carolena"?  A. — There 
are  four  canoes  hen'  and  there  is  one  that  you  can  se«'  the 
ribs  <piite  plainly.  There  is  a  hill  to  the  rifjlit  of  that  place 
as  yon  look  down  towards  the  schooners,  and  it  was  there 
that  the  canoes  were  placed. 

(■i. — You  would  not  recofjnize  them  as  the  canoes  of  the 
"Carolena"  in  the  picture?     .\.— I  mi(,'ht. 


60 


20 


i9i 

(Joliii  <'<>lHf<M-(l— Rc-rross.)     (A.  ,).   H«'(lit«'l— <'n»sH.) 

ii. — l.ttok  nf  both  pitMircH  their  and  «'»•  if  you  do?  A.— 
No,  sir,  I  cannot  recojniJzt*  tlioni  except  that  in  the  fli-st  jiic- 
Inre  one  looks  as  if  it  had  tlie  ribs  in  it. 

(i. — One  more  reference  as  to  yoiir  b«)ok.  What  was  your 
(iitcli  in  June  out  of  this  «87?  A.— On  the  "Carolena"  in  the 
month  of  June? 

(i._Yes?     A.— 14. 

Q. — Tliat  in  your  catdi,  I  believe.  I  mean  the  catch  of  all 
'"  the  men.  What  was  the  total  catch  of  the  "Carolena"  in 
fliat  month?     A. — The  total  catcii  here  was  52  in  June. 

Uecross  examination  by  Mr.  Peters: 

ii. — Did  you  keep  the  total  catch  from  day  to  day?  A. — 
1  think  you  will  find  the  total  catches  there  at  the  end  of  the 
book. 

Q. — When  did  you  make  the  entries  of  the  total  catch? 
A. — Wlien  we  received  them  from  day  to  day. 

ii. — I  see  tluit  is  in  pencil  and  you  made  it  at  tlie  bottom  in 
ink  "total  seals  «Sfl'"?    A.— Yes. 

Q. — In  pencil  you  have  added  it  up  fi88?  A. — There  are 
7(i  to  be  added  to  the  610. 

Q. — It  apiH'ars  you  added  it  up  to  the  end  of  July.  The 
.'Mst  of  July  is  the  last  entry  there  of  seals  caut^ht.  and  there 
are  six  for  tliat  day?  A. — Here  is  another  day  witli  70 
caufjht. 

ii. — In  one  day?    A. — In  one  day. 

ii. — Did  you  only  catch  s«'als  that  one  day  in  that  month? 
A. — That  is  the  dav  we  were  seized. 

(i.— You  caught  7«  that  day?    A.— Y«'S.  all  told. 

Q. — You  have  here  (>80  in  ink,  and  <)88  in  pencil,  ('an  yon 
tell  which  is  tlu>  correct  niimber,  and  tell  us  when  y«tu  cor- 
rected it?    A. — That  is  a  <5  and  not  an  8. 

ii. — Perhaps  it  is.  but  it  is  a  funny  one?  A. — I  nev«'r  «'X- 
petted  to  show  that  book  to  anyone. 

ii. — You  never  expected  to  show  this  book  to  any  person? 
A.— No. 

ii. — When  did  you  make  that  entry  in  ink?     A. — In  1880. 

40      ij. — After  you  came  back?    A. — I  do  not  know  whether  1 

made  it  on  board  the  s<'hooner  or  not.     I  mi^ht  have  made 

it  when  I  ^ot  home.     I  cannot  ssiy  positively,  it  is  years  ago 

when  that  was  put  down  at  any  rate. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  jjave  my  learned  friend  notice  this  niorn- 
inj,'  tliat  I  would  like  to  have  Mr.  Mechtel  recalled  to  cross- 
examine  him  on  somelhinjj;  I  omitted.  I  have  onl^  to  put  a 
few  qu(>stionH  to  him. 

Mr.  Peters: — You   pave   me   notice   this  morninp; — I  think 
50  tlie  exact  words  were — to  produce  Mr.  MecJitel  for  cross-ex- 
amination.     I  -inswered  that  I  thoUKht  as  you  had  a  full  o])- 
jiort unity  of  cross-examining;  Mr.  lleclilel  that  if  you  wished 
to  recall  him,  you  should  recall  liin>  as  your  own  witness. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  do  not  propos(>  to  ask  anything  I  have 
(loss examined  befoif.  It  is  only  in  leKiird  to  something  I 
have  omitted  in  his  cross-t  xamination. 

The  rommissitmer  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — We  are 
C^^  inclined  to  allow  it.  Mr.  Dickinson. 


30 


■:'!(: 


§3: 


i/j  :i 


i-    i; 


'19} 


A.  J.  Ilechtel  recalled. 
t'roBs-exaininatlon  by  Mr.  Di<kinson: 


I    '  I 


<(lMi 


10 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


394 
(A.  J.  lUchlel— (;io88— lU'-diieet.) 

Q. — In  your  cxiiiiiiiijition  today  you  stated  that  you  owned 
the  "City  of  Han  Diego"?    A.— Ves,  sir. 

Q. — And  tliat  slu-  was  an  Anici-it-an  sliip?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Had  you  n'gisti'red  lier  at  tl.c  port  of  San  Fnimisco? 
A. — I  am  not  positive  about  that. 

Q. — You  are  not  positive  about  it?  A. — Slie  would  liliely 
have  to  be,  I  cannot  say. 

Q.— Did  you  register  I'ler  lierc  in  Victoria?  A.— Slie  would 
have  to  be  registered  in  one  place  or  the  other,  J  rtup])0se. 

Q- — You  do  not  remember  registering  h'ji  in  San  Fran- 
cisco?     A. — I  would  not  be  positive. 

Q-— Where  did  you  buy  her?      A.— In  San  Francisco. 

Q. — Were  you  living  there?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q.— Did  you  register  her  when  you  bought  her?  A. — I 
cannot  tell  just  now,  but  I  can  tell  you  later  on. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  if  you  regi8t«.'red  her  there  yourself 
after  buying  her?      A. — I  suppose  I  did. 

Q. — Are  you  known  by  the  names  of  A.  J.  Bechtel,  and  John 
A.  Itechtel?      A. — I  am  known  as  A.  J.  Hechtel. 

Q. — Are  you  also  known  as  John  A.  Bechtel?  A. — That  is 
the  name  I  was  christened  by.  Sometimes  A.  J.  Bechtel, 
and  sometimes  John  A.  Here  I  am  known  as  A.  J.  Bechtel. 

Q. — I  would  like  j'ou  to  ascertain  wliether  you  registen.'d 
the  "<"ity  of  San  Diego''  after  you  bought  her  in  San  Fran- 
cisco?     A. — That  is  what  time  slie  n-gistered? 

Q. — No,  but  whether  you  did  register  her  or  not.  If  you 
understand  me  to  ask  about  the  time  you  wgistered  her  you 
nntde  a  mistake.  After  you  i)urchased  her  and  became  own- 
er did  you  register  her  in  San  Francisco?  A. — I  cannot  say 
now. 

Q. — Can  you  ascertain  and  let  us  kpow?  A. — I  think  I 
can. 

Q. — When  you  registered  her  here  at  Victoria,  did  ycJTi  re- 
gister her  in  your  own  name?      A. — I  sliould  think  so. 

Q. — Did  you  register  Mr.  ^(unsie  as  the  Managing  Owner? 
A. — I  believe  so.  Mr.  Munsie  was  tlie  managing  owner;  that 
is  to  say  l\e  managed  tiie  vessel  for  me  during  my  absence. 

Q. — Was  Mr.  Munsie  the  managing  owner?  A. — He  man- 
aged the  vessel  when  I  was  away. 

Q. — Did  you  report  for  registry,  Wiliam  Munsie  as  tlie 
managing  owner  of  tlie  "San  Diego"  in  the  jtort  of  Victoria 
at  the  Registry  Office?  A. — I  think  not,  J  am  almost  posi- 
tive I  did  not.      1  really  do  not  understand  the  (|uestion. 

Q. — The  question  is  very  plain.  Did  not  you  register  the 
"Han  Diego"  at  Victoria  in  1H92'!  A. — She  never  was  re- 
gistered as  Mr.  Munsie  managing  owner. 

Q. — Did  you  ever  it-port  to  the  Registrar  that  Mr.  Munsie 
was  managing  owner?  A. — To  the  best  of  my  knowledge  I 
did  not. 

(J.— I  will  ask  you:  whether,  on  the  28th.  December,  1892 
yo<i,  John  A.  Bechtel,  did  not  report  to  tlie  Registrar  of  Hliii»- 
l>ing  at  the  port  of  Victoria,  B.  ('.;  William  Munsie,  of  Vic- 
toria, as  the  Alanaging  owner,  of  the  "City  of  Han  Diego?  A. 
— If  it  is  there  1  must  have  done  it. 

Q. — Look  at  that  pajter  and  what  do  you  answer  after  read- 
ing it?      A. — I  must  have  doiw  it. 

Q. — Did  you  or  did  you  not?  A. — I  should  think  if  1  did 
there  would  be  anotlier  paper  attached  to  that.  Whose 
writing  is  that  in? 

Q. — That  is  a  copy  of  the  report  from  the  Collector's  of- 
fice. A. — It  is  right  enough  then  if  It  came  from  the  Collec- 
tor. 

Q. — Now  did  you  also  file  with  the  Rtglstrar  of  the  port 
here  a  cojiy  of  your  registry  at  San  Francisco  certifl«'d  by  the 
British  Consul,  at  the  time  you  a)»])1led  for  registry  lier«'?    A. 


10 


20 


30 


40 


395 

(A.  J.  Ko«ht«"l—K(  direct.) 

— I  wuuld  not  h(>  positivt;  what  I  did  do;  that  is  something 
n<-\v  to  nie.      Tlicre  was  considorablc  running  around  to  do. 

il. — After  you  bought  tliis  ship  in  San  Francisco  did  not  you 
.ipply  for  a  ccrtiticd  copy  and  have  the  ('onsul  certify  a  copy 
of  your  n  gistry  at  San  Francisco?      A. — I  cannot  say. 

(J. — Did  you  some  bacli  here  on  the  ship  yourself?  A. — 
Xo,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  order  her  to  be  sent  here?  A. — No,  I  sent 
her  to  sea  and  slie  came  in  here. 

Q. — Looli  at  the  paper  I  now  sliow  you  and  see  if  it  re- 
freshes your  memory  tliat  you  tiled  at  the  registry  office  here 
a  certified  copy  of  your  registry  of  the  "City  of  San  Diego" 
at  San  Francisco?  A. — There  is  no  donbt  of  that  I  suppose, 
according  to  what  I  see. 

Q. — Did  you  attend  to  the  business  and  take  out  the  re- 
gistry here  yourself?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — You  filed  the  papers  and  got  the  registry  here?  A. — 
Yes,  sir,  but  I  will  not  say  what  date  it  was. 

Q. — But  you  did  not  when  it  was  done?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q — You  attended  the  filing  of  the  papers  and  the  getting 
of  the  registry  made?  A. — I  might  have  had  a  broker  or 
somebody  to  attend  to  it  for  me.  1  don't  just  remember  who 
it  was. 

Redirect  examination  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q. — I  simply  want  to  ask  you  this  question.  Ton  bought 
this  ship  in  1891,  and  there  were  certain  papers  with  regard 
to  her  and  it  api)ears  she  has  been  transferred  tothis  city  for 
registry  here?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — As  a  matter  of  fact  did  you  know  anything  about  the 
papers  requisite  at  that  time  yourself?      A. — No. 

Q. — Did  you  get  any  person  to  have  the  papers  made  out 
for  you?      A. — In  San  Francisco? 

Q. — Yes,  or  in  Victoria?  A. — Yes,  there  was  a  firm  I  for- 
get the  name  of  it  now,  that  did  the  bu:jiness  for  me. 

Q. — You  employed  some  person  to  do  the  business  for  you? 
A.— Yes. 

Q. — Were  they  shipping  men,  or  legal  men,  or  what?     A. — 
They  were  shipping  men,  I  could  get  their  names  easily  en 
ough,  I  simply  had  the  business  done  and  paid  for    it  ind 
came  away. 

Q. — Did  you  employ  any  ])erson  in  Victoria  to  complete  the 
transaction?  A. — There  was  some  person,  1  believe,  who  did 
the  writing  for  me,  1  do  no.  remember  who  if  was. 

Q. — Was  that  a  lawyer  or  a  shipping  man  or  what?  A. — I 
Uiink  he  would  likely  be  a  broker. 

Examination  closed. 

Mr.  Peters: — My  learne.l  friend  Mr.  Dickinson,  has  ten- 
dered in  evidence,  for  som^  porpose,  I  do  not  know  what,  ^he 
i-egiftry  of  the  ship  the  "Zity  of  San  Diego,"  T  should  think 
1  e  oufjht  to  point  out  in  tvhat  possible  way,  tin.'  registry  of 
the  "City  of  San  Diego  can  have  any  efTer'  upon  thin  case? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  will  siiite,  of  course,  ViiiV  eutire  frank- 
ness that  Mr.  Pee  htel  has,  as  appears  by  his  testimony,  bought 
the  sliip,  the  'MJlty  of  San  Diego"  in  San  Francisco.  It  ap- 
jtears  tliat  subseepiently  he  appeared  here  and  applied  for  the 
rey:iMtry  and  jtresented  the  deed  of  his  naturalisation  papers, 
it  a|ipears  that  he  filed  here  with  the  registrar  to  obtain  the 
it  ajtears  that  he  filed  with  the  registrar  to  obtain 
Ihe  registry,  a  copy  of  the  registry  in  his  own  nam«', 
taken  out  by  him  for  the  "City  of  San  Diego"  in 
the  city  of  San  Francisco.  It  appears,  as  we  will 
show  Hubseciuenlly.    by    a    statute    «)f    the     Vnited    States, 


nii;,j 


■iliii;';  s{ 


•  [ 

nil 


hi'! 

'  '1 

:.H 


m 
'I  ii 


1-    u 


fsl'fnff  •  ~     ' 


MiMt 


that  the  roffitrtry  cannot  be  obtained,  «'X<opt  by  an  American 
citizen.  It  appearH  fiirtliei-  b.v  flic  reniHtr.v  Hied  liere  tliat 
.lolin  A.  lU'clitel  in  applying;  for  tlie  leftiHtry  liere  did  file  a 
copy  of  tlie  registry  at  San  Francisco,  dnly  cerlified  by  tlie 
liritiHli  Connnl  in  whidi  it  ajipears  tliat  lie  liad  talien  tlu?  oatli 
tJiat  he  was  tlieu  an  American  citizi'n — tlie  oath  refpiired  l)y 
tile  reA'ised  statute  which  we  will  subKcquenlly  show.  That 
is  all  I  I1-:  ve  to  say. 

10  Mr.  PettTs: — That  beinj?  the  object  for  which  this  docu- 
ment is  produced,  I  submit  that  it  ou^lit  not  to  be  nor  cannot 
be  received  as  authentic  testimony  in  this  malter.  My  learn- 
ed friend  admits  that  the  fact  of  the  registry  of  this  ship,  the 
"San  l>iej;o  has  nothin<i;  to  do  with  he  «ase.  lUit  he  sjiys 
that  certain  certiticates  are  filed  here  puii)ortinj;  to  be  si^n- 
«>d,  and  which  no  doubt  were  signed  by  the  Itritish  consul 
at  San  Francisco,  which  states  certain  facts  with  ref^ard  to 
this  gentleman's  nationality.  Now,  it  does  appear  to  me 
that  if  we  are  to  try  to  obtain  anything  like  the  best  evi- 

20  dence,  this  is  certainly  not  the  best  evidence  that  can  be  ob- 
tained upon  this  paricular  matter.  The  man  himself  is  here 
and  my  learned  friend  can  ask  him  these  i|ues>ions,  or  he  can 
ask  other  people  t'lese  (luestions.  but  instead  of  d«iing  that 
he  puts  in  what  is  clearly  secondary  evidence.  Some  other 
person  says  that  this  gentleman  was  an  American  citizen, 
and  some  other  persons  say  that  he  made  a  declarticm  one 
time.  But  it  is  also  alleged,  here  that  he  owned  an  American 
ship,  and  they  assume  from  that  that  he  could  not  have  been 
the  owner  unless  he  were  an  American  citizen.     Surely  that 

30  is  not  the  iK'st  way  to  i»rove  it.  'le  (piestion  whether  a  man 
is  an  American  citizen  or  not  must  depend  upon  certain 
facts.  And  when  these  facts  are  laid  before  the  Tribunal 
you  will  be  able  to  judge  whether  or  not  he  is  an  American 
citizen.  He  may  be  an  American  litizen  by  birth  or  l)y 
naturalization,  but  there  should  be  evidence  to  i»rove  that, 
and  then  the  court  can  judg<'  as  to  whether  the  allegation  is 
right  or  not.  The  mere  certificate  from  another  jkm-sou  that 
he  did  something,  whicJi  prima  facie  only  an  American  citi- 
zen can  do  is  not  the  best  evidence  of  liis  nationality,  and 

40  more  esiK'cially  when  tl"  niiiii  is  liere  himself,  and  can  be 
examined  on  that  point.  I  submit,  however,  that  even  evi 
d«>nce  as  to  his  birth  or  nationality  is  not  relevant  here  at 
all,  and  by  and  by  w«'  will  have  something  moir  to  say  about 
that  in  our  final  argument. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  (juite  agree  that  the  statement  of  an 
other  person,  that  Mr.  IJechtel  was  an  Ameiicaii  citizen, 
would  not  Ih'  evidence.  Hut  whi'ii  Mr.  Itechtel  tiled  in  a  pub 
lie  office  that  statement  of  the  owiierslii]»  of  the  v«'ssi'l.  that 

50  statement  is  his  own.  He  has  had  the  benefit  of  it,  and  it  is 
evidence  of  the  fact  that  he  took  the  oath  that  1h>  was  an 
American  citizen  without  which,  as  we  shall  show,  he  could 
not  have  registered  the  ship  at  San  Francisco.  Now,  we  do 
not  propose  to  be  juit  to  the  examinaticui  of  Mr.  Itechtel,  or 
to  be  bound  by  the  testimony  (►f  .Mr.  Muiisie — certainly  not 
by  Mr.  Hecht<'l  for  obvious  reasons  that  ap])ear  by  this  rec 
ord.  Hut,  If  we  can  show  that  he  has  filed  a  jaiblic  state 
mtint  in  a  luiblic  offl<e  that  he  has  taken  the  oath  that  he  is 
an  American  citizen,  we  are  entitled  to  that  as  authentic 

60  testimony  tending  to  show  his  citizenship,  precisely  as  if  we 
were  on  the  other  side,  of  the  world  and  we  could  not  reach 
him.  We  can  tak«>  any  admissions  or  any  statements  made 
in  the  assertion  of  his  rights  of  proi)erty,  and  it  will  have  all 
the  weight  of  an  admission.  We  assert  that  if  he  went  to 
Ban  Francisco  to  be  registered  there,  and  tttok  the  oath  that 
he  was  an  American  citizen,  and  filed  that  here  in  order  to 
'  get  a  Itritish  registry,  that  we  an-  entitled  t(t  have  that 
statement,  if  we  can  show  that  he  filed  it  or  that  it  was  llh-d 


10 


397 

\ty  liis  aullioiity  in  llii;  llritiHli  Hi'gJMtry  OflUo.  I  do  not 
I»n»nv  '.viiiil  more  iintlu'iifit-  testimony  w«'  can  jjt'l  in  tlit'  ab- 
scnt-c  of  Mr.  Itct-litcl,  and  under  tlu'  conditionH  of  this  caHC, 
wf  iir«>  cntitU'd  to  iirocced  prt'ciHtdv  as  if  he  were  alwent,  hv- 
tjinHO  we  do  not  proiwse  to  be  bonnd  bv  his  statement  on  any 
siib.ji'ft, 

T!ie  t'oniniissioner  on  vhe  jiart  of  Iler  Majesty: — We  Hiink 
i(  should  be  reieived  in  llir  >anie  way  as  other  testimony 
and  subject  to  tlie  objection  already  noted,  left  for  further 
consideration. 

Mv.  Dickinson : — Tliis  is  a  certified  copy,  certified  by  the 
registrar  of  shipping  at  this  port  on  the  11th  of  December. 

Received  and  marked  Kxiiibit  2  (U.S.)  Claim  No.  1. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Will 
this  be  filed  as  an  exhibit? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Yes.  sir,  I  desire  to  tell  the  Commission- 
ers what  is  in  it.  Amonf:  (lie  pajK^i-s  so  certified  is  an  appli- 
cation of  Mnnsie,  of  the  2Sth  of  December,  18!(2,  showin}:;  the 
size  of  the  vessel. 

The  (Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — If  it  is 
;;oin}j;  to  1h>  printed,  I  think  it  would  be  In'tter  to  give  noth- 
ing more  than  is  necessary  to  draw  attention  to  what  the 
document  is;  otlierwise  we  are  duplicating  the  evidence. 

Jlr.  Dickinson: — Yes.  but  we  have  been  listening,  may  it 
I)h'ase  your  Lordship,  for  most  of  the  time  we  have  been  in 
session  to  certain  kinds  of  jiroof.. 

The  Comniissi(mer  on  the  part  of  II«'r  Majesty: — I  merely 
add  that  by  way  of  suggestion,  Mr.  Dickinson.  Take  yonr 
own  course. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  o(  the  United  States: — This 
is  a  solemn  act  of  citizenship  and  it  is  more  than  a  declara- 
tion. I  think  we  know  wiiat  it  contains. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — r>oes  your  Honour  know  what  is  in  the 
statement?  If  so,  I  will  file  this  exhibit  and  say  no  more 
about  it. 

The  Commissioner  <m  the  jiart  of  the  United  States: — I  un- 
derstand it  is  the  n«'cessaiy  appiicatitm  to  obtain  a  registry 
of  the  vessel.  Yon  can  read  it  if  you  desire  to,  Mr.  Dickin- 
son. 


-y      Mr.  Dickinson: — I  have  no  desire  to  if  the  Commissioners 
Iiave  not  a  d<'sire  to  hear  it. 

Tile  <'ommissioiier  on  the  part  of  Iler  Majesty: — I  with- 
tliaw  any  objection  that  I  may  have  been  understood  to  have 
inadt'  to  yonr  reading  what  is  in  the  statement. 

Mr.  Dickinson; — I  simply  wish  to  have  a  statement  as  to- 
what  is  to  go  down  on  the  notes. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — I  quite 
'jo  understand  yciur  position. 

The  <'ommis,sioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — It  is 
an  act  of  ci(iz(>nship  of  the  highest  character. 

The  t'oinmissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — From  your 
argtiuient.  Mr.  Dickinson.  1  have  had  a  jM-etty  general  idea 
of  what  the  character  of  it  is,  of  course,  if  yoti  wish  it  to  go 
in  the  notes  there  would  be  no  objectou. 


40 


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60 


398 

Mr.  IMrkiuHon: — I  bii.'.i)l,v  (li(iiiti;ht  it  bt'th'i-  that  it  Hlioiild 
HO  into  the  testimony  for  what  purpose  it  was  for. 

The  Commissioner  on  tlie  part  of  the  United  States: — I 
thought  you  said  you  were  reading  it  for  the  benefit  of  the 
Commissioners. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — 1  tfimply  want  it  to  go  into  the  notes  so 
that  it  would  be  seen  from  the  day's  proceedings  what  tliese 
documents  were. 

Tlie  Commissioner  on  tlie  part  of  Her  Majesty: —  You  had 
better  continue. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — There  is  a  declaration  by  John  A.  Hechtel 
purporting  to  be  signed  by  liim  tliat  William  Munsie,  of  Vic- 
toria aforesaid,  is  the  managing  owner  of  the  "City  of  San 
Diego?"  Exhbit  "H"  attached  to  the  certificate  is  a  declara- 
tion of  ownership  by  John  A.  Bechtel  with  :>  statement  that 
he  was  naturalized  by  the  proper  legislative  authority  of  the 
Dominion  of  Canada  49  Vic.  Sec.  V.i,  on  tlie  2l8t  of  April, 
1892. 

There  is  a  certificate  of  the  San  Francisco  registry  certified 
as  a  copy  by  the  British  Consul  at  San  Francisco  in  which  it 
was  recited  ^Exhibit  C.)  of  the  paper,  that  John  A.  Bi-chtel  in 
pursuance  of  the  regulationf  of  commerce  and  navigation, 
Revised  Statutes  of  the  T^nited  States,  having  taken  and  sub- 
scribed the  oath  required  by  law,  and  having  sworn  tlmt  he  is 
the  only  owner  of  the  vessel  "City  of  San  Diego"  of  San 
Francisco,  is  himself  a  citizen  of  the  United  States,  etc.,  giv- 
ing the  tonnage  of  the  vessel  on  the  usual  registry  form,  then 
follows  a  certificate  of  suiTcy  by  Walter  Walker  of  the  ctty  of 
Victoria,  on  the  19tli  of  December,  1892. 

Mr.  Peters: — 1  wish  to  point  out,  so  that  it  may  go  down 
on  the  notes  that  this  document  does  not  contain  the  declara- 
tion. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  T^nited  States: — That 
is  true,  but  the  certificate  is  there  that  he  made  the  declara- 
tion. 

Mr.  refers: — This  is  a  statement  by  a  third  person  that 
Mr.  Bechtel  made  an  afBdavit  which  we  liave  not  before  us. 
Is  that  to  be  taken  in  place  of  evidence,  whien  you  can  get 
direct  evidence  on  the  point. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  TJnited  States: — Mr. 
Bechtel  himself  presented  thes«>  papers  to  tlie  Customs 
House. 

Mr.  Peters: — IJut  Mr.  Bechtel  is  not  a  party  to  this  transac- 
tion. This  is  taken  ns  evidence,  not  against  Mr.  Betchel,  but 
against  the  Queen,  or  the  party  really  interested,  Mr.  Munsie. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  tlie  I'nited  States: — Tliat 
certificate  is  evidence  in  any  court  of  the  United  States,  and 
in  a  trial  for  murder  on  Imard  that  v»'ssel  that  certificate 
alone  would  be  evidence  on  behalf  of  the  United  States,  as 
against  the  person  who  committed  the  murder — it  would  be 
evidence  that  the  vessel  was  owned  by  an  American  citizen. 

Mr.  Peters: — That  might  be  all  well  enough  where  tlie 
question  in  issue  was  the  ownership  of  that  vessel,  it  might 
be  evidence  lliat  the  jterson  wlio  committed  the  murder  did 
soon  an  .American  ship  and  was  under  the  jurisdicton  of  the 
American  courts.  That  is  not  the  (]ue«ti(m  in  this  case.  Tlie 
question  in  tliis  suit  is  between  oflier  partt's  altogether.  Take 
the  strongest  case  tliat  could  be  put.  Sujipose  Bechtel  sat 
down  and  deliberately  wrote  and  swore  (o  it  that  he  was  an 
American  citizen  I  claim  that  sucli  a  declaration  c(»uld  not  he 


399 


10 


20 


(Ah'X.  MtLt'iiii— Dii'cct.) 

iiHcd  iu  thiH  cuHe.  TUvrv  is  no  question  witli  Mr.  Ueelitvl 
lien*.  The  qiieHtion  is  between  other  parties  altogether.  Jlr. 
FJechtol  may  not  know  wliat  eonstitntes  an  American  citizen, 
lie  ma.v  be  one  and  he  may  not  be  one.  He  may  thinli,  for 
iiiHtance,  that  becaus*'  lie  Iuim  resided  for  so  many  years  in 
llie  States  that  that  would  make  ham  an  American  citizen, 
and  bona  fide  he  may  have  made  that  aflidarit.  The  point 
which  the  ('Onimisioneis  have  to  make  is:  Is  this  man  an 
American  citizen  or  is  he  not.  It  is  not  whether  this  man, 
at  one  time  or  at  another,  stated  that  he  was  an  American 
citizen.  1  conld  understand  Ihat  If  Mr.  IJechtel  were  asked 
(lie  question,  and  that  he  said  he  was  not  an  American  citi- 
zen, these  documents  iiii(jht  be  jMit  in,  not  for  the  purpose  of 
lii-ovina;  that  the  was  an  American  citi/.en,  not  for  tlie  jmr- 
pose  of  proving  that  he  was  an  American  citizen,  but  for  the 
purpose  of  testing  his  credibility.  I  would  go  to  the  extent 
of  saying  that  even  an  affidavit  of  his,  except  as  against  him- 
self, cannot  be  used. 

The  rominis:4i(mer  on  the  part  of  the  T'nited  States: — Are 
we  not  taking  np  a  great  deal  of  time  about  this.  This  point 
has  all  been  reserved. 


Mr.  Peters: — I  am  aware  of  that. 

The  (.'oiiimissi«mer  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty  :- 
Kibilitv  of  the  whole  of  this  evidence  is  reserved. 


-The  admis- 


40 


Mr.  IVters: — Yes,  My  Lord,  but  I  wish  to  put  myself  on  re- 
cord as  making  this  objection? 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — That 
is  not  a  mere  declaration  of  citizenship,  but  it  is  an  act  of 
citizenship  on  his  pail.  1  do  not  ask  you  to  argue  on  it  now, 
Mr.  Peters,  but  I  simply  call  your  attention  to  it  so  that  at 
the  proper  time  we  can  hear  yonr  argument  upon  it. 

Mr.  Peters: — 1  wish  to  make  it  clearly  understood  that  1 
object  to  this. 

The  ('(mimissioner  on  the  jiart  of  Her  JIajesty: — It  is  all 
icscrved,  and  it  is  open  fov  you  to  make  your  argument  at  a 
later  stage. 


Captain  Alexander  McLean,  was  called  as  a  witness  on  the 
jMirt  of  the  I'nlted  States,  and  duly  swoni: 

'io       Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Dickinson. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  suppose  my  learned  friend  will  admit 
iluit  this  is  the  Captain  Alexander  McLean  referred  to  in 
liolli  the  .\merican  and  HHtish  cases  as  Alexander  McLean. 

Mr.  Peters: — There  is  an  Alexander  M<Lean  frecjuently 
inciilioiied,  but  I  do  not  know  this  witness  to  be  the  man.  I 
will  admit  that  the  name  is  frequently  mentioned     in     the 

ciiHe. 

*)0  Mr.  Dickinson: — I  simply  want  to  identify  him  as  the  man 
i-eferred  to  as  Alexander  Mclx'an  engaged  in  the  sealing  busi- 
ness. 

Sir  Charles  llibbert  Tapper: — Was  he  a  witness  relied  on 
in  Paris  by  you? 

•Mr.  Dickinson: — My  both  sides. 

Sir  Charles  llibbert  Tapper: — No,  we  did  no*  liave  hilHi 


.::!! 


lb 


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(Alex.  Mi'l.eau— IHroct.) 
Hy  Ml-.  DickiiiHon: 

Q. — Cnptuin.  wIh'iv  v/viv  .vou  liorn?  A. — In  ("iijk'  Hi-floii 
iHliiud,  \ovti  Kt'otiii. 

Q. — How  iiiaiiv  >THi"8  tUd  .yo"  wiH  <>»  ♦•>•'  eaHterii  cchihI? 
A.— rp  until  18S(»! 

(J. — What  about  Ih  your  an*'?    A. — I  am  .'{7  y»'ar8  of  nn<'. 

(j. — In  what  claHH  of  boats  were  you  Hailln);  on  the  cuHtvin 
10  I'oaHt?    A. — Mostly  all  clnsHcH  of  Hlil|m. 

Q. — FIhIiIui;  v«'8w>Ih?    A. — Yt'H,  all  claHWH. 

Q. — You  wiTO  brought  up  to  that  Hoi-t  of  buHinoHS,  wt'rc  you 
not?    A. — Yes,  hIi*. 

Q. — What  year  did  you  conic  to  this  coaHt?  A. — I  t-anio 
years  ajjo;  in  1884. 

Q. — l»ld  you  conio  around  the  Horn?     A. — Y»'H,  sir. 

Q. — Where  did  you  come  to?  A. — I  came  to  San  Fran- 
cisco. 

(J. — What  did  you  do  In  San  Francisco?     A. — I  reniaineti 
20   then'  for  a  few  months. 

Q. — And  then  where  did  you  po?     A. — I  came  to  Victoria. 

Q. — At  what  time  did  you  arrive  at  Victoria,  or  alutut 
what  time?     A.— I  think  it  was  about  April,  1880. 

Q. — What  boat,  if  any,  did  you  first  sail  out  of  Victoria  In? 
A. — I  sailed  on  a  steamer  called  th«>  "Oertrude." 

Q. — Where  did  she  ;un?  A. — From  here  to  the  Fraser 
river. 

Q. — How  long  were  you  on  her?    A. — Probably  a  conple  of 
months. 
30       Q. — And  then  where  did  you  go?  A. — I  went  on  the  steam- 
er called  the  "Sir  James  ))(»up;las." 

Q. — Where  did  she  run?  A. — She  was  owned  by  the  Can- 
adian government. 

Q. — What  position  were  you  in  on  her?  A. — I  was  mate 
of  her  for  a  while. 

Q. — She  belonged  to  the  Customs  Service,  I  think?  A. — 
No,  she  was  under  the  control  of  the  Marine  and  Fisheries 
Department. 

Q. — When  did  vou  first  commence  sealing  here?    A. — In 
40    188.1. 

Q. — I  think  you  went  out  in  the  "San  Diego — not  the  "City 
of  San  Diego."  A. — Yes,  the  "San  Diego"  from  San  Fran- 
cisco. 

Q. — My  leamed  friend  has  r»'ad  in  from  on«'  of  tlu'se  books 
that  in  1883  the  "San  Diego"  got  2,.100  seals  in  Itehring  Sen. 
Who  sailed  the  "San  Diego"  in  1888?  A. — There  was  a  cap- 
tain on  board  of  her  named  (^otswell. 

Q. — Wei-e  you  yourself  on  board?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

ij. — Were  vou  engaged  in  scaling  tliat  vear  on  tlie  "San 
5°   Diego"?     A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  was  her  catch?  A. — Her  catch  was  somethinj; 
close  on  to  1,200. 

Q. — How  much  did  she  catch  in  Hehring  Sea,  and  liow 
much  outside?  A. — I  cannot  say  exactly  how  mucli  was 
caught  outside,  but  lier  catc-li  was  mostiv  in  liehring  Sea. 

Q.— Did  you  fit  out  the  "San  Diego"  in  1883?  A.— No.  sir, 
the  owners  fitted  her  out. 

Q. — In  wliat  ca])acity  did  you  go  on  her?  A. — I  was  navi- 
gator and  boat  steerer. 

Q. — What  was  she  equipped  for?  A. — She  was  equipped 
for  sealing  and  walrusing. 

Q. — How  many  boats  had  she  got?    A. — Three  boats. 

Q. — And  guns?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  kind  of  guns?  A. — She  had  guns  and  rifles 
both. 

Q. — How  many  men?     A. — 13  men. 

Q. — Did  you  go  out  the  next  season?     A. — Y»'S,  sir. 


60 


I J 


20 


30 


50 


60 


401 

(AU'X.  MilA'nn -Direct.) 

().— Wlint  in?     A.— A    vi'ss«'l   calhHl   tin-  "Favourite." 

g.— TlwU  wiiH  in  1HS4*'     A.— YcH. 

g.—WlHT,.  di«]  .von  ontHt?     A.— In  Victoria. 

Q.— Wiiat  iH  tliV  tonnage  of  tlic  "Favourite'?  A.— Tlio 
••!"'avourit»'"  waw  Honictiiint;  liltc  7S  or  HO  touH,  I  am  not  Bure 
wliicli. 

Q. — Wlio  owned  tin-  "Favourite?"  A. — It  wum  owned  by 
the  tirni  of  Hpriu);  &  <'*»ni])an,v. 

(I. — Wlio  <-onipoN«Ml  tiu'  tirni  of  Hitrin^  &  ("ouipan.v? 

Mr.  I'eterH: — I  wisli  to  linow  wluit  tlie  ownerHliip  <»f  tlie 
"I-'avourite"  Inio  to  do  witli  tliis  case? 

Mr.  Dicliinmtn: — We  want  to  hIiow  wlio  outfitted  lier. 

Mr.  lVter.><: — I  do  not  want  to  talie  any  tedinical  ol)jecfion, 
liiit  it  seems  to  me  tliis  is  not  at  ali  in  order. 

Mr.  Dii  liinson: — I  do  not  want  to  use  tiiis  evidence  in  any 
fiirtlier  caw. 

Mr.  TelerH: — Of  courtfe  you  won't;  tlnit  is  clear. 

Mr.  l>icl;inson: — I  conld  by  K'^'bij?  you  notice. 

Mr.  TetiTs: — We  on  our  side  have,  ap  Siiv  as  possible,  kept 
out  i'uy  evidence  re^^arding  the  vessels  in  issue  befor?  tlie 
Convention. 

The  Coniniissioner  on  tlu'  jtart  of  the  I'nited  States: — The 
"Favonrite"  is  an  issue  here. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — She  was  warned. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  jmrt  of  the  United  States:— It 
is  understood,  Mr.  Dickinson,  that  we  should  keep  the  evi- 
(h'lce  clear  from  those  vessels  in  issue  as  far  sis  possible. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  do  not  wish  to  (jo  into  any  evidence  that 
iiiifilit  come  up  in  tlie  "Favourite''  case;  this  witness  men'ly 
iiajipened  to  be  on  the  schooner,  and  I  wish  to  ^et  from  liim. 
the  evidence  as  to  tlie  onttittin;;.  I  will  withdraw  fr<un  him 
the  <|uestion  of  tlu'  ownership,  if  that  is  the  sole  ground  of 
oltjcction. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  objct  to  it. 

The  Commissioner  on  tlie  part  of  the  United  States: — It 
seems  to  me  that  there  has  been  an  nnd<>rstanding  that  we 
should  not  enter  into  the  case  of  any  vessel  in  issue  here. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — She  was  not  seized,  but  only  warned. 

Mr.  Peters: — In  wliich  case  her  outfit  would  be  very  ran- 
ferial  evidence. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — This  is  the  year  18>S4  I  am  asking  about. 

The  Commisioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — Would  not 
the  more  relevant  iii<|«"<'y  be  as  to  the  knowledge  of  this  wit- 
ness, and  then  as  to  what  would  be  the  ordinary  outfit  of 
v('ss(>ls  for  sealing,  without  going  into  the  particular  ques- 
tion of  details. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — 1  desiro  to  show  this  witness's  experience, 
lint  at  the  suggestion  of  vour  Lordship,  I  will  not  go  into  de- 
tails. 

Ily  Mr.  Dickinson: — 

(2. — The  "Favourite"  was  outfitted  and  went  into  the 
Ucliring  Sea?  A. — \ot  in  1SS4.  She  was  on  the  west  coast 
t>f  \  ancouver  Island  m  18S4. 

2V, 


i  ^r 


a 


\:l 


:..  J 


m^ 


Um 


V.L    I: 
t' 


iil 


miVi 


ifi^'Tfqr;  r  i!  ^^" 


HiMi 


10 


30 


40 


50 


60 


402 

(Alex.  Mt'Lfiiii-OiitMl.) 

il — Hid  yoH  liiivc  any  cxia'rieuci'  with  Jiidlaii  IiiiuIi'Ih  iu 
IMKI?      A.— V«'8,  gif. 
H. — Ilow  many  cuiioch  liad  you?      A. — From  18  to  2(1  laii- 

tU'H 

ii- — And  in  tliat  yvnr  HiOiriiiK  Hva  wan  not  <>nti'rcd  1  tiiinii? 
A. — No.  sir,  anot4i('r  v«'88t'l  went  to  tlic  itelirinK  Sa,  but  tlic 
•Favouritf"  did  not  go. 

Q.— In  IMsr)  wliat  wi'i-e  you  doing?  A.— 1  sailed  from 
lioif  in  l.SM. 

y.— In  wliat  bliip?      A.— Tile  "Favouritf." 

(i. — And  wliat  liind  of  a  «Tt'W?      A. — An  Indian  cr«'w. 

Q. — How  nniny  ninocH  and  liow  many  IndianH?  A. — I 
bclifvc  tluTt*  wcrt*  12  canoca  In  IHSo. 

Q. — In  1SK4  and  in  IMHa  wore  canocH  used?  A. — Yen.  nir. 
Hu'W  were  Honic  canocfl  uwd. 

Q. — In  tlu'HC  yt'ai'H  wen*  gunH  um-d?  A. — Tlwrc  were  Home 
gUUH  UHt-d,  y«-H. 

y.— WImt  did  tin*  IndiauH  uHually  uhc?  A.— At  tliat 
time  tliey  UHualiy  UHed  spears. 

(). — Did  von  tisli  on  tlie  coaHt  as  well  aH  in  Retiring  H«'a? 
A.— Yea. 

(i. — And  in  1HH4.  the  first  year,  y«»u  w<'re  flHliing  on  tlie 
coast  altogether?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

(J. — Wliat  were  ywii  doing  in  IHHt!?       A. — I  slii])ped  here. 

(i. — In  what  vessel?      A. — In  tiie  "Favourite." 

Q. — Did  yon  go  sealing?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Did  you  liave  (lie  fitting  out  for  the  sealing  voyages? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i. — In  your  experience  with  Indians,  do  you  consider  them 
better  or  jioorer  liunters  than  white  men  in  boats?  A. — 
Tlwy  are  i)Oorer;  taliing  one  canoe  as  compared  witli  one  boat. 

Q. — Now.  did  .von  seal  in  1887?  A. — Yes,  sir,  I  w«'nt  out 
Ui  tlie  vessel  in  i887. 

(J. — Do  you  know  of  any  trading  posts  on  tlie  coast  in  these 
years,  namely,  18Hf»  and  1887?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — \Yliat  wf'i'e  they?  A. — There  was  a  trading  jiost  at 
lvyu(|uot,  anotlier  at  Ilesiiuiet,  juid  another  at  ('layo(|uot. 

Q. — Did  you  l<now  anything  of  Jlr.  Aliinsie  liaving  a  trading 
jiost  tliere?  A. — I  hav«'  never  been  in  at  his  trading  post, 
but  I  heard  of  one  being  tliere. 

Q. — Wliat  ship  w«'re  yon  in  in  1887?  A. — I  was  a  passeng- 
er on  board  the  scliooner  "Mary  F,lh'n." 

Q. — Your  brother  was  master?       A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — How  many  boats  did  you  carry?      A. — We  had  seven. 

Q. — Aiiii  wliitt    liiuilers?       A. — Yes. 

H. — OiH-  ,»f  riu'  seven  was  a  stern  boat?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Wlu'i'i  did  you  get  your  hunters?  A. — \Ye  got  our 
Imnters  m<>.ii(>  of  them  here  in  Victoria,  and  other  places,  and 
fioiiic  <.f  ti.em  came  across  from  Japan. 

Q. — Wliat  time  did  you  leave  the  Hehring  Sea  in  the  "Mary 
Fllen?"  A. — I  canno;  exactly  say,  but  probably  about  the 
2((tli  or  the  2.5111  of  August.       1  am  not  sure. 

Q. — From  your  experience  wliat  would  you  call  the  end  of 
the  sealing  season  in  l?eliring  Sea,  in  the  years  188(5  and  1887"' 
A. — About  the  2(lth  of  .\iigust,  I  would  consider  tli<'  end  of  the 
sesisoii.       1  used  to  leave  the  Sea  th«'n. 

Q. — Why  is  that  the  end  of  the  s<'ason?  A. — We  usually 
found  it  so  at  (hat  time. 

Q. — What  stops  the  season?  The  weather  used  to  be  bad 
Mild  we  figured  on  getting  back  about  the  last  of  August  or 
the  IHth  of  Sejitember,  we  usually  outfitted  for  that  time. 

Q. — Is  it  because  it  is  too  rough  for  the  small  uoats  that 
the  season  clost  s?  A. — Of  course  we  could  remain  there- 
for a  longer  time,  but  probably  the  weather  would  not  justify 
us  in  doing  so. 


I'l 


2(J 


30 


40 


5P 


60 


403 
(Alex.  .M(l.«'Hii— l»ir<'tt.) 

{.I. — Tlu'  "Miiij  KlU'ii"  WHH  III!  AnifHciin  mIi1|i?  A. — Hlu> 
wiiH  built  ill  Kail  Frniu-iHrtt,  hut  hIic  wiih  u  liriliHli  vchhoI  at 
lliat  tiiiK>. 

Q. — (.'ttuld  you  K>v('  UH  Hoiiit'  iHTouiit  of  ,vour  cntrli  on  tlic 
•Miiiy  Ellon"  in  IMH7?      A.— I  tould  not  poHllivi'ly  ntato  that. 

(j. — Voii  w«'r<'  Hultpoi'iiat'd  to  hriii);  ,vour  hookH  hen*? 
WIh'It  arc  your  hookH  in  tlic  caw  of  tlu-  "Slar.v  Klh-n?  A. — 
I  gave  tlicin  to  Mr.  I'l'tt'i-H  Konii'  tiint'  a^o. 

(). — l>o  you  know  wlicrc  tlw  lofj  of  tli*'  "Mary  Kllt'ii"  1h? 
.\. — I  think  it  wan  in  ihc  hookH  I  Kave;  tlirri'  were  Hix  or  m-vcn 
liookH. 

iy — Wlint  other  hookH  hav<>  you  not  to  nhow,  your  tatcln'H. 
(lie  placo  wlicrc  yon  >;ot  thciii,  the  nninhi'r  taken  and  what 
men  were  out?    A. — Well,  that  hook  there  anti  the  lop  Imok. 

ti. — You  Hpoke  of  five  or  hIx  iMiokn,  what  are  tliey?  A. — 
They  are  the  joiirnalH  of  the  voyage  for  tlie  dlffen'nt  vchhcIn. 

(/— Ih  the  lot,'  of  th'  "Favonrite"  for  ISMfi  with  thewe  books  ' 
.\. — Yen,  I  >;ave  it  to  Mr.  I'etei-H  with  the  otlier  bookn.  I  pave 
tlK'  lopH  fnun   IMH4  t<»  1SS7. 

Q. — You  kept  accurate  lopw.  did  you?  \.—  Y«'H,  Kir,  very 
correct,  T  think.  Of  courne  they  aiN'  kept  for  my  (»wn  uhc, 
and  I  did  not  intend  to  l>rinp  tliein  into  court.  There  ih  one 
of  (lie  Htatenieiits  in  fliat  book  for  t8S7  tliat  in  not  correct 
in  (lie  amount  of  seaJH  Htated  there 

iy — Now,  can  you  refer  to  any  books  tiiat  are  lieri'  to  pive 
(he  catch  of  the  "Mary  Kllen"  in  1HS7?  A.— For  1S87  in 
(luit  liook  it  In  not  correct,  but  I  know  within  n  few  BeiilH  the 
nuiulter  nlie  caiipiit. 

Q.— Does  the  lop  of  the  "Mary  EUen"  show  it?  A.— No, 
the  number  she  caupht  that  year  was  2,470. 

Q.— Thin  book,  or  the  lop  book,  is  not  corri'ct?  A.— That 
liook  is  not  correct  for  1S87.  The  lop  book  does  not  show 
the  iiumher  of  seals. 

ii. — What  jtart  of  that  lop  book  do  you  say  is  not  correct, 
("ajitain?     A. — From  .Ium»  to  July. 

Q. — Why?  A. — IJecause  this  part  of  it  was  made  up  from 
ISSi;  from  the  "Mary  Ellen"  and  was  jdaced  in  this  bcMik?  I 
wanted  to  pet  the  position  she  caupht  the  Heals  on  in  (h»? 
fair  weather  prounds  in  188<!.  I  jait  that  in  there  so  as  to  be 
handy  to  n-fer  to  at  anv  time. 

Q.— What  was  the  ditch  for  1887?  A.— 2,470,  it  mipht  bo 
a  few  more  or  less. 

(i.— Did  that  include  the  coast  catch?     A.— Yes. 

(i.— What  was  the  tonnape  of  the  "Mary  Ellen"?  A.— 78 
or  SO  tons. 

Q. — About  how  many  were  thert»  in  the  coast  catch?  A. — 
I  believe  827  of  these  wore  coast  catch,  and  IMO  on  the  pas- 

sape. 

Q. — What  ]iassap(>  did  you  mean?  A. — The  passape  from 
N'ictoria  to  Hehrinp  Sea.  Wt'  delivered  127  her*',  and  I  think 
wo  pot  1.1!)  on  the  passape  up  to  th"  Behrinp  Sea. 

Q. — How  many  years  did  you  leave  the  H^'hrinp  Sea  about 
the  litth  or  20th  of  Aupust?  A.— In  188:{  the  last  lowerinp 
wo  had  in  tlio  Rehrinp  Soa  was  on  the  10th  of  Aupust.  In 
18S.-)  on  the  2,'{rd  of  Aupust,  in  188(>  (ui  the  l!»th  of  Aupust, 
ill  18S7  on  the  l!Mh  of  Aupust,  in  1888  on  the  19th  of  Aupust, 
find  in  1880  on  the  2.'')tli  of  Aupust. 

Q. — You  have  said  you  wore  in  the  "Mary  Elhn''  in  1888? 
A. — Yi's,  sir. 

Q. — And  you  carried  Indians,  I  think?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Two  Indians  to  a  caiio«'?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

<).— What  cri'w  did  you  have  in  1880?     A.— White  men. 

Q— How  many  men?     A. — I  think  aliout  2.1  men. 

ti.— Did  you  sail  in  1800  to  the  Soa?    A.— Yos,  sir. 


If-  ^ 
i!  m 


^m 


h 


404 


I4i)i> 


lO 


20 


(Al«'x.  Mclicaii — IHirct.) 

y.— WIk'I-c  wtTf  ^v,.:  iu  that  ^eai'?  A.— 1  was  iu  a  vuhsuI 
lalled  (Ir'  ".laiiu'H  JIaiiiiltuii  Ix'wiH,"  but  I  did  not  go  into 
till'  Ut'hriug  Hea  iu  18'J(». 

li. — Did  you  outlit  all  of  tlicsi-  Itoatn  that  ^vou  liave  told  of 
bt'fort'  tlit'y  weut  out?     A. — Y«'8,  sir. 

Q. — And  you  lilk'd  tlu-ui  when  you  had  ludiaun,  with 
auioi's,  did  \ou?    A. — Yi's,  sir. 

y. — And  wluu  you  had  whiti-  uuu  you  llttt>d  tlu'Ui  out 
with  boats,  did  you?    A. — Vt's,  «ir,  I  HUpi'i-intcndi-d  the  work. 

12. — Iu  1S!H  you  wi'i-f  out  waling?  A. — Yes,  sir,  in  the 
"James  Hamilton  Lewis." 

(i.— And     in     1S!)2?     A.— Yes,    on    the 
Sparks." 

Q. — And  in  Hehring  Sea?    A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Hut  you  were  sealint;?    A. — Y'es,  sir 

i.1. — And  in  1M!):{?,  what  were  you  on 
'Alexander." 

y. — Sealing?     A. — Y'es,  sir. 

Q. — In  1H1»4  wen'  you  sealiu}!;?     A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — What  were  you  on  in  that  year?      A. — Thi' 
"Bonanza." 


40 


50 


60 


schooner    "Uose 


I?    A. — The  steamer 


vou  11. 


A.— The 


schooner 
schooner 


A. — There  was  one  vessel 
come  from  Nova  Scotia  in 


Q. — And  iu   lS;(r»,  what  were 
"F'inina  and  Louise." 

^i. — Did  vou  ever  live  in  Victoria?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— In  what  years?      A— I  lived  here  from  1884  to  1881). 

I). — Did  your  family  live  here?      A. — Y'es,  sir. 

12. —  Are  you  ac()uainted  with  the  mark(>t  valiu'  of  sealing; 
\«'ssels  in  the  port  of  N'itloiia  in  the  y»ars  1885,  188(»,  ]S.s7 
and  1*<88?     A. — Yes,  sir,  some. 

Q. — Do  you  know  something  of  the  demand  for  them  then? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

<l. — You  were  in  the  business  c«mstantly?  A. — Yes,  I  was 
at  it  that  time. 

(}. — Will  you  please  tell  us,  <'a]»tain,  something  of  the  sail- 
ing fleet,  outside  of  tlu'  vessels  mentioned  in  this  case,  and 
first  state  whether  in  the  years,  to  which  I  have  called  ycuir 
attention,  nam«'ly  188.')  and  188((,  a  majority  of  the  sealing 
vessels  came  from  Nova  Scotia? 
came  from  Nova  Scotia  in  188(». 

<i. — Then  the  majority  did  not 
1SM(i?     A.— No,  sir.' 

Q. — Where  did  the  majm-ity  of  vesstds  come  from  in  the 
scaling  fleet,  or  vessels  fitted  out  for  sealing  in  tlws-'  years? 
A. — Outside  the  v«'sscls  w<'  built  her«'.  they  ni<>stly  came  from 
San  Francisco. 

(2- — Now.  you  n  incmber.  in  I88(t.  the  vessels  iu  the  sealing 
fleet  that  1  will  r<'ad  to  you,  and  pleas*'  tell  us  where  they 
came  from,  if  you  can.  Where  did  the  "Mary  Elh'u"  come 
from?     A. — San  Fiancis<(). 

C2. — Where  did  the  "Thert-sa"  c»uue  fwm?  A. — San  Fran 
(•isco. 

(2- — Where  did  flic  ".Mfred  .\dams"  come  from? 
Francisco,  origina'lv  built  in  the  Kast. 

(2- — Where  did    me  ".Vnna    Meek"   come     from? 
Francisco. 

(2.— .Ml  engaged  in  sealing  in  1880  aud  L887? 
sir.  in  188."(  and  188(!. 

(2. — Did  you  know  a  ship  called  the  "Sierra?" 

(2- — Wlieie  did  she  conu'  from?     A. — She  was 
(an  ship.  1  think  frmu  San  Francisco. 

(2. — She  was  scaling  in  the  year  188(1?  A. — I  believe  she 
was  .scaling  in  188(1. 

t2. — Did  you  give  attention  to  the  purchase  of  sealing  ships, 
and  as  to  what  was  going  on  in  I88(i  and  1887?  .\. — Yes, 
sir,  some. 


A.- 
A.- 
A.- 


-San 
-San 

-Yes, 


A.— Yes. 

an  Aiueri- 


405 
(Alex.  Mclit'an— Direct.) 

(i.— Do  .voii  icmcnilKT  I  lie  "San  .Idw"?  A.— SIk-  was  hiiill 
in  San  Franrisco. 

Q.— She  was  in  tlic  scaling  Heel  in  18S(i?     A.— Yes. 

(i.— What  waH  lici-  fonnap'?  A.— I'lohahiv  between  50 
antl  (iO  tons. 

^l- — VVIiat  was  tlie  tonna^'e  of  tiie  "Sv«M'a"?  A. — S!ie  was 
a  smaller  vessel.  I  cannot  say  exactly,  1»hI  probably  about  45 
tons. 

(i.— Where  was  the  "San  Die^o"— not  the  "<Mtv  of  San 
l)ie<ro"— from?       A'.— Prom  Han  Fran<-i8c(). 

<i—^^' '"''•<*  was  the  "Vand«ibilt"  from?  A.— From  San 
I'rancisco. 

Q.— She  was  a 'Sealer?      A.— Yes.  sir. 

Q— What  was  her  tonnape?      A. — KM)  tons. 

Q. — In  what  year  did  vou  know  her?  A.— In  l,<iS,T  nnd 
ISSCJ.  "" 

(i.— Where  was  the  "Lilly  L."  f,,,,,,?      A.— San  Francisco. 
20      (i.- About  what  tonnage  was  she?      A.— About  (!5  Ions. 
Q. — .\nd  whai  years  was  she  sealinsj  in?      A. — In  1HS7. 
<i— ^V^»<'Il   was  <h(>  "Helen    HInm"  sealing?       A.— .\ bout 
1S,s(i.  I  think. 

Q— What  (onnajre  was  she?      A.— About  ((5  tons. 

(i.— Do  you  remember  the  schooner  "Otter"  in  the  sealiuiT 
lleet?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i.— In  what  \ear  was  she  built.      A.— In  ISSO  I  think. 

<i— Where  was  the  "Allie  I.  Alfjer"  from?       A.— Seatile. 

Q.— About  wiiat  tonnage  was  she?  A.— She  was  about  78 
30  Ions. 

Q.— Where  was  th<'  "Rosa  Sharks"  from?  A.— San  Fran- 
( isco. 

Q. — She  was  in  the  sealing  Heet?      A. — Yea. 

Q. — About  what  tounage  was  she?      A. — Forty  tons. 

(.}. — In  what  years  was  she  out?  A. — She  had  been  out" 
in  issr>.  I  believi',  but  I  do  not  know,  or  cannot  say  if  she  was 
out  in  ISS«. 


40 


(i. — She  was  in  the  sealing  business?      A. — Yes. 

i]. — Where  was  the  "Charles  (i.  Wilson"  from?      A. — San 
Francisco. 

(i.-What  yt-ars?       A.— Hefore  l.SSS. 

(i. — When  did  she  enter  the  sealing     business?         A.  —1 
sliould  think  about  l.Ssr>,  1  am  not  certain. 

(}. — Do  you  remeudier  about  the  tonnage?      A. — I  couldn't 
c.vaclly  say;  about  7o  I  should  think. 

(i.--Well,  the  "City  of  San   Diego"  wjis  a  dilTerent  ship, 
was  .-.'>e?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

il-  '.'.here  did  she  come  from?       A. — San  Francisco. 
50      Q.— Aliout  wl'.at  tonnage?      A.— About  4.'  01;  50. 

i]. — What  year  out?       A — .She  had  been  oiU  since  about 
iss.-). 

Q. —  'liid  subst<iuent?       A. — Subsecjuently. 

(J— The  Svlvia  Handv?      A. — San  Francisco. 

Q.— What  yi'ir  out?  '   A.— ISSd,  I  should  (hink. 

Q. — .\nd  about  what  tonnage?       A. — She  would  be  jtrob 
ably  about  70  tons;  I  couldn't  exactly  say  as  lo  the  regular 
•'    tonnage  of  any  of  them. 

Q. — Do  you  reineml)er  the  ".\nnie?"      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Where   was  she   from?     A. — She   would   probably  be 
something  like  ',W  tons. 


U: 


Q. — .\nd  what  rear? 


<he  was  out  in  ISS.'i,  I  believe, 


i'cd  later;  and  she  was  (ost  since  then. 

Q— When,  if  yon  know?      A.— I  believe  the  winter  of  1S80 
or  ISSS,  I  am  not  sure  which. 

Q. — Do  you  reuK  niber  the  Peai'l?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q.--What  w.-i  her  origin?      A. — American,  San  Francisco. 


«.  m 


f  t 


J-'i. 


01 


iiFfii' 


I ;  I 


1 1  It 


lis 


'•ill 


I  tinlj 


>.,ii 


m 


iiHiifiiiiKi 


B 


ppql 


'fwW^'fW 


lO 


23 


35 


40 


MIM.'i 


50 


60 


406 

(Alex.  .Mclii'tm- 
A.- 


Diieet.) 

Slio  would  be  abuut  70  or 


Q. — About  wiiiit  touuiige? 
77  tons. 

Q. — And  what  year?      /P. — She  went  out  from  1885  on. 

Q.— The  Ak'xandei?      A. — Han  Francisto. 

Q. — What  tonnage?      A. — About  52  tons. 

Q-— What  year?  A.— Well,  she  has  been  in  the  business 
for  the  last  18  years;  I  guess  1(5  years. 

Q.— The  Golden  Fleece?      .-V.— San  Francisco. 

Q.— About  what  tonnage?      A.— 128  tons,  I  tliink. 

Q.— And  what  year?  A.— I  don't  know  of  her  being  in 
the  business. 

Q.— About  her  being  in  the  sealing  business?      A.— No,  sir. 

Q— Was  she  of  the  class  of  vessels  that  could  go  sealing? 
A. — Yes,  sir;  slie  is  sealing  now. 

Q.— All  this  class  of  vessels,  I  understand  you,  Captain 
McLean,  are  of  the  sealing  class?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— They  are  tit  for  sealing?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — As  lit  as  vessels  built  expressly  for  that  purpose?  A.— 
Yes,  sir. 

Q-— Vessels  that  come  around  from  Nova  Scotia,  or  from 
the  Atlantic  coast,  are  they  ordinary  fishing  vessels,  those 
with  which  you  are  familiar?  A.— Yes,  ordinary  class  of 
fishermen. 

Q- — And  they  are  fit  for  B,ealing  vessels,  are  noy  v  t'  A. 
— Yes,  sir,  they  are. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  the  "La  Ninfa?"  A. — :•'  .  is  ,1  .san 
Francisco  v<'ssel. 

Q.— And  wlnn  out?  A.— She  has  been  out  since  1886  and 
1887. 

Q.— l>o  you  remember  !h«'  "Angel  Dollv?"      A. — Yes,  sir. 

(J.— What  year?      A.— That  would  be  1884  and  1885. 
■   Q. — What  tonnage?      A. — I'erhaps  about  45  tons. 

Q.- -Did  you  stale  what  year  she  was  out?  A. — She  has 
been  out  since  1885  I  think. 

Q. — And  the  'Laura?"  A. — The  "Laura''  she  has  been  out 
too;  she  is  a  San  Francisco  vessel,  a  small  vessel. 

<i- — I>o  y<m  remember  (he  Henrietta?  A. — The  "Henriet- 
ta," no,  I  don't  know  her;  I  believe  there  was  two  "Henriet- 
tas," one  has  bet-n  seized  over  in  Hussia.  They  belonged  to 
San  Francisco. 

Q.— Both  of  them?      A.— I  don't  know. 

Q. — Do  you  know  about  the  tonnage  of  those?  A. — 1 
couldn't  exactly  say. 

Q. — Did  you  know  Ihem?      A. — I  knew  of  them. 

Q. — Now,  will  you  tell  us  about  what  it  costs  to  transport 
one  of  these  sealing  sliii>s  from  the  port  of  origin  a^  Hnn 
I'^ancisco  to  N'ictoria?  A. — That  w«tuld  dejtend  «'onsi>ler- 
able  on  (he  size  of  the  vessel  and  number  of  men  it  would 
take  to  bring  her  uj». 

Q. — (live  the  maximum  and  minimum.  A. — 50  tons,  four 
men  ought  to  biing  her  nj). 

Q. — What  would  be  the  cost  of  bringing  up  a  vessel  of  50 
tons?      A.— From  ^t2.S5  to  l||!250. 

Q. — Do  any  of  (hese  shijis  that  1  have  mentioned  to  you 
have  steam  auxiliarv?      A. — No,  sir,  I  don't  believe  so. 

Q. — And  dtiring  these  years  the  regular  tariff  for  bringing 
(hem  into  this  port  was  'low  much?  A.--l'robably  it  wouI(' 
be  about  10  per  cent.;  1  could  not  ^ay  exactly  what  were  tl-  ■ 
I'ates  at  that  tijue. 

Q. — fan  you  give  me,  in  (he  year  1880.  the  name  of  any 
other  shii>  that  came  around  from  Nov  Scotia  excei)t  (he 
"Palhflnder?"  A.— Yes.  sir. 

Q._AVI,a(?       A.— A   vessel        ^ed  (he  "Lottie  Fairchild." 

Q.— .\bout  what  ((mnage?       .\.  -  About    l\,\  tons. 

Q. — ^VaH  she  a  sealer?     .A—  '1 1  "<,  sir. 


407 
(A  lex.  MciiWUi— Direct.) 


?<'s! 


come  around?     A. — Slic  ciiiun 
1HK(!;  nhe  WiiH  oHVicd  for  Hole 


10 


20 


3° 


40 


(>0 


Q. — And  wliat  year  did  she 
to  San  Fnuicisco,  I  believe,  in 
tiieve  in   .SS(i. 

{.I. — Did  Hhe  come  here?  A. — No,  sir,  slie  came  here  after- 
\v.ird8  after  she  had  bwn  sealing;  that  was  in  18S7. 

t^. — Do  ,von  know  of  any  other  ship  that  came  around  from 
Nova  Scoiia  in  1H8(!?  A. — No,  not  in  1H8<{;  tliere  may  have 
been  some. 

(I. — Now,  (.'aptain  McLean,  from  where  was  tlie  d.'mand 
for  sealing  ships  mostly  HU]iplied  in  1880  and  1887?  A. — Up 
to  18S7  from  Han  Francisco. 

«i.  -You  tliink  probably  nine-tenths  of  the  sealius;  ships 
iij»  to  1887  cauu  from  San  Francisco,  <»r  American  ports  on 
tlie  Pacific  coast?    A. — I  couldn't  exactly  way. 

(I. — A  very  large  proportion?  A. — The  largest  pi'ojjortion 
came  fr<mi  there. 

(I. — Now,  do  you  know  anything  about  the  demand  for 
sealing  ships  at  the  port  of  Victoria  in  188(»?  I  think  you 
said  you  did.     A. — Yes,  sir.  I  knew  something  about  it. 

Q. — Did  you  hav«'  anything  U\  do  with  a  sealer  here  in 
1S8(»  that  you  did  not'send  out?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

(I. — What  was  her  name?    A. — The  "Kate." 

Q. — What  was  her  tonnage?  A. — I  couldn't  exactly  say  as 
to  her  tonnage;  pr(d)ably  about  (ill  tons;  I  dim't  think  she 
was  registered  that  niucli. 

g.— She  was  here  in  188(i?    A.— V«'.-<,  sir. 

(I. — She  was  properly  built  for  a  s<'aler?  A. — Yes,  sir;  she 
had  been  out  that  vear  on  the  coast  here. 

Q.— In  188(»?     A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  were  sealing  in  188(i?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Were  you  owner  of  the  "Kate,"  or  d'd  you  have  any 
interest  in  her?  A. — I  was  |»art  owner  bv  a  partnership  con- 
tract. 

Q. — What  ilid  you  do  with  her?  A — 1  laid  her  uj);  she 
might  have  made  a  trip  or  two  down  the  coast  while  I  was 
away  to  liebring  Sea. 

Q. — There  was  no  demand  for  her  for  sealing  purposes? 
A. — At  that  time  it  was  pr<>tty  liard  to  get  men  to  go  to 
sea,  and  at  th"  same  lime  we  didn't  think  it  was  any  ways 
jtrobable — 

(J. — You  went  to  Hehring  Sea,  J  think  that  vear  in  the 
"F-\ivorite"?    A.— 188(;.  yes. 

Q. — And  you  laid  up  the  Kate,  that  is  you  did  not  send  her 
sealing?    A. — Didn't  send  her  sealing. 

Q. — Now,  was  there  any  shi|»yard  devoted  to  the  building  of 
such  ships  in  Victoria  in  18S(i  or  1887?  A.— Well,  there 
were  some  small  yards  there,  hut  they  did  not  make  a  regu- 
lar business. 

(^ — In  188(i,  and  befo?e,  and  1887,  were  there  any  ship 
yards  in  San  Francisco  devoted  to  the  building  of  such  ships? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Name  them?  A. — One  was  Turner's  ship  yard;  an- 
c  'XT  man  by  the  name  of  White  has  got  a  ship  yard,  n\\^ 
Vfirioiis  othc's. 

Q— W-re  Ihey  exclusively  devoted  to  the  building  of  WX" 
iliiss  of  slii]»s?  .\.  -Yes.  sir,  of  course  they  built  large  v<'h 
si'ls  ill  ihe  lime. 

Q.— This  was  in  188«  and  1887,  was  it  not?    A.— Yep,  sir. 

Q. — How  often  wer(>  you  in  San  Francisco  in  those  vears 
1880  and  1887?  A.— I  used  to  go  down  tlu>re  myself  about 
ence  a  year. 

Q. — Do  yo\i  know  whether  or  not  there  was  a  good  suj)- 
Jily  of  sealing  vessels,  or  vessels  which  could  be  used  for 
sealing,  of  the  class  (hat  vou  have  testified  to,  in  1880  and 
IS87?      A.— Yes,  sir. 


■,H)j 

i 


^ 

1 

i' 

! 

i 

1 

.'  r ' 


:iii.i^ 


'ill  'J     ';ti;'thi» 


''  '  i ! 


liii'! 


IP 

■"■'■i'S 
'.'■"■  'i 


-4 'I 


If 


m  ^^ 


408 


:  :'H 


HiMi 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


(Ah'x.  .M«I.<iiii-I>iiv«t.) 

Q.— Was  tlu'i'o  any  dilliciilty  in  buying  vossi'ls  in  tlu;  jiort 
of  San  Prancisro?  A. — It  dcpcndt'd  on  tho  claHS  of  vosboIh  ii 
IRTSon  wanti'd. 

Q. — Hut  tlu'iv  was  no  difllculty  in  buying  wliat  a  person 
wanted,  was  there?      A. — Enoup^Ii  from  50  to  KM)  tons. 

Q. — An  abundant  supply  to  fill  any  demand,  was  there  not? 
A. — I  should  thinli  so. 

Q. — Both  of  new  and  second  class?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Do  you  know  of  vessels  beins  bought  there  for  sealing 
purposes?      A. — Yes,  sir,  I  have  Ixnown  some. 

Q. — About  what  was  tlie  cost,  if  you  know  of  this  class  of 
ships  built  new  at  San  Francisco? 

Sir  C.  H.  Tupper:— What  year? 

Mr.  Dickinson  r—lt'SO  and  18S7. 

Witness: — That  depends  larg<'ly  on  the  materials  used  in 
the  vessel. 

Q. — Now  that  reminds  nw;  all  thes(>  ships  lo  which  I  have 
called  your  attention,  from  San  Francisco,  of  what  were  they 
mostly  built?      A. — I'rincipally  of  piije. 

Q. — What  kind  of  june?      A. — Oregon  i»ine. 

Q. — Do  you  know  of  any  vessel  being  turned  out  of  this 
class  at  (he  fhiy,  yards  at  San  Francisco  built  of  anything 
«'lse  than  Oregon  pine"  A. — Tliey  nsed  some  hard  wood 
among  the  Oregon  pine,  which  would  cost  more. 

Q. — Hut  as  to  the  majority  of  tliem,  give  us  some  projtor 
tion  of  the  vessels  you  have  named,  that  are  built  of  Orcg(u> 
pine?      A. — A  new  vessel  of  that  kind  would  i)robaVily  <:«• 
built  at  flOO  a  t(m,  ready  for  sea;  would  average  that  sum; 
of  course  there  might  lie  a  few  dollars  over  or  under. 

Q. — Why  do  you  say  ready  for  sea;  just  t»'ll  us  what  that 
lnclud«'s,  if  you  pleas*'?  A. — That  would  be  a  vessel  in  s«'a 
worthy  condition,  witli  everything  aboard  except  the  ship's 
stores 

Q. — Does  it  include  the  galley  funiiture  for  instance?  A. 
— Yes.  sir. 

i}. — And  the  stove?       A. — Y«'8,  sir. 

(J. — And  the  rigging?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Sails?  A. — Yes,  sir, 

Q. — Extra  sails  for  the  voyage?      A. — Yos,  sir. 

Q. — Extra  ro])e  for  the  voyage?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — All  extras  to  fit  her  out  in  a  seagoing  condition?  A. — 
In  a  seaworthy  condition,  everything  excepting  the  ship's 
stores. 

Q. — And  you  include  in  ship's  stores,  what,  Captain  Mc- 
Lean?     A. — Provisions. 

Q. — What  about  the  repairs  on  a  ship,  ]>iitting  in  new 
planks  wliere  they  were  r«»tten,  is  that  jmrt  of  the  equipment 
for  sea,  or  repairs?  A.— rutting  her  in  a  seaworthy  condi 
tion. 

Q. — What  about  the  compass?  A. — A  part  of  the  ship, 
sir. 

Q. — The  chnmometer?  .\. — Some  masters  carry  their  own 
chronometers,  and  they  are  sometimes  furnislied  by  the  own 
ers. 

Q. — When  furnished  by  tlu'  owners,  is  i1  a  part  of  the  shijt? 
.v. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Is  there  anything  you  think  of  that  can  be  done  to  n 
ship  when  she  is  fitted  foi'  sea,  except  the  stores,  that  is  not 
a  jmrt  of  the  sliip?      A. — For  sealing? 

Q.— \o,  fitting  her  out  for  sen  gen<'rally?  A.— Well,  she 
ouglit  to  be  in  first  class  seawortliy  condition,  not  requiring 
anything  else  except  ship's  stores. 

Q-— N'ow,  d(»  you  rememl)er  any  sales  of  sliips  in  VictoHn 
in  IHSr.  or  just  prior  to  1HS({  fitted  for  sealers?  A.— I  believe 
there  had  been  several  changes  made  here  in  seagoing  shijis. 


10 


20 


469 

(Ah'X.  Mc-Li'uu — Uii'Pct.) 

ii. — Do  you  know  nnylhiii^  ubout  (lu'  wih",  for  liistiiiu-t',  of 
(he  Mar.v  Ellen?      A. — Yt's,  sir. 

(). — Hlie  WUH  ii  sliij),  I  think  you  have  said,  of  about  80 
toiiH?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Wlieu  was  slio  sold?  A. — Hhv  was  partly  sold  in  '84, 
and  then  a{;;ain  in  188(i. 

Q. — At  what  rate  was  she  sold?  A. — I  believe  something 
less  than  |45(l(). 

Q.:— And  what  was  her  age  about?  A. — I  believe  be- 
twwn  18  and  20  years;  I  couldn't  say  exactly.  I  think  h'ss 
than  20. 

Q. — She  was  built  of  Oreijon  j>ine?  A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — And  when  she  was  sold,  did  they  include  her  sails? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — (lood  condition  in  every  way?  A. — Pretty  fair  con- 
dition. 

Q. — Did  that  include  her  boats?  A. — Boats  and  whole 
sealing  outtit. 

Q. — It  included  her  in  seaworthy  condition,  and  her  s<»al- 
infi  outfit?  A. — Of  course  she  would  not  be  in  a  seaworthy 
condition  if  she  had  had  to  go  on  the  dock  to  be  overhauled. 

Q. — And  what  was  the  sealing  outfit  included  at  that 
I»Hce?  A. — That  would  be  boats,  guns,  and  extras  for  re- 
Iiainng  guns,  and  so  forth,  Im-ks. 

(i- — 1)0  you  know  anything  about  the  sale  of  the  "Moun- 
tain Cliief"  along  about  1880  or  b«'fore?  A. — The  "Moun- 
tain Chief"  I  think  was  sold  about  '83  or  '84. 

(i. — Whei-eabouts?       A. — In  Victoria. 

Q. — \Vhat  did  she  bring?  A. — I  couldn't  exactly  say;  I 
have  been  told  that  it  was  something  less  than  |500  at  the 
time. 

(i. — She  has  a  tonnage  of  only  about  20,  I  think?  A. — I 
believe  she  is  something  like  20. 

Q.— You  state  the  "\V.  P.  Sayward"  was  sold?  A.— I  be- 
lieve a  jmrt  of  lu'r  was  transferwMl;  an  interi'St  in  her. 

ii. — In  what  year?  A. — I  think  she  was  built  in  '82;  I 
iM'lieve  it  would  be  since  '82;  I  don't  exactly  know  what  year 
it  was. 

Q.— Between  1882  and  1887?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  was  she  rated  at?  A. — I  bt^lieve  the  vessel 
would  ])robably  be  worth  at  that  time  about  fOSOO. 

Q. — How  was  she  rated  in  the  sale?      A. — I  think  some- 
thing like  $0000. 
Q. — What  was  her  tonnage? 

Mr.  Peters: — This  is  one  of  the  vessels  in  dispute. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  get  the  vessels  wiirned  and  seized  con- 
50  fused.      We  will  stop  right  here  and  all  niav  be  stricken  out 
iibont  the  "W.  P.  Savward." 


30 


40 


Ii  ill 


m 


*     Ml] 
■■■<  :m\ 


ii 


m 


i'i 


■'•  :;n:!i«!(iv'! 


iiii:,, 


i 


m-u 


i    '    ! 


iiiii 


Q- — .\bout  what  was  her  tonnage,  the  "Favourite?''  A, 
— I  think  something  like  80  tons. 

Q.— And  about  how  old  was  she  in  I88fi?  A.— In  1880  I 
should  think  sIk;  would  be  less  than — I  couldn't  say  exactly, 
jierhaps  18  or  20  yeais.      I  guess  her  registe.  would  show. 

ii- — And  do  you  know  of  lier  being  sold?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i. — Do  you  remetnber  what  she  was  sold  at?  A. — Yes, 
sir;  she  was  sold  at  the  rate  of  f 3,000. 

Q. — With  her  rigging?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q- — Kfjuipped  for  sea?      A. — Just  as  she  came  in  from  sea. 

Q.— How  about  the  "Kate?"  A.— She  was  sold  in  188(!, 
or  transferred  part  of  her  ownership. 

Q.-  At  ,vlat  rate?      A.~At  the  rate  of  |1,800. 

Q- — What  was  her  tonnage?  A. — I  think  about  00  tons; 
I  am  not  iM'rfectly  sure. 


ij 


!!I!I;r: 


mm 


Trn-TT 


uvu 


410 

(Alex.  McLean — Direct.) 

Q. — Tlie  "Kate,"  yon  Hay,  was  sold  iit  lKS(i?  A. — Ves,  sir, 
at  th(!  (liHHoluliun  of  partiier.sliip.  One  i»artner  bought  in 
the  ve«8el. 

Mr.  Peters: — Mr.  iiiclvinson  is  now  {join;;  into  several  of 
tliese  eases,  for  inslanee  the  Alfred  Adams.  That  vessel  was 
seized  and  ran  »iwa.\  with  the  prize  crew,  and  the  case  came 
,0  »])  afterwards  in  tiiat  way.  Wlien  the  case  comes  to  ho 
tried  the  valne  of  th<'  "Alfred  Adams'"  will  be  a  matter  that 
will  have  to  be  tried  ton  certain  extent,  although  perhaps  not 
so  fnlly  as  tlioiiyli  we  claimed  the  value  of  the  shij).  Per 
haps  it  is  ratlier  lakiiift  np  the  time  to  inquire  into  it  now,  as 
it  must  be  inquired  into  lu-reafter. 

Mr.  Diddnson:— Let  us  set,  may  it  please  your  Honours. 
The  ships  that  were  seized,  of  course,  and  sold,  and  never  re- 
turned by  the  Tnited  States,  their  value  will  be  the  subject 

2Q  of  imiuiry,  of  <,(»urse-  but  s'.ips  t'nr  were  merely  warned, 
and  were  not  taken  by  the  L'uited  States,  the  question  of 
their  value  cannot  be  primarily  in  issue,  it  seems  to  me;  and 
it  is  necessary  for  me  to  show,  m  answer  to  the  Hritish  case, 
soniethint;  about  the  nmrket  for  shi4)s  here.  As  it  happens, 
some  of  the  shijts  that  were  warned  were  boujrht  and  sold 
in  this  niarket,  and  it  is  the  best  evidence  that  we  can  pro- 
duce— the  prices  at  which  ships  were  bou|;ht  and  sold.  The 
cost  of  shijm,  as  I  had  the  honor  to  state  to  the  Commission- 
ers in  the  course  of  an  argument  when  my  fri>iid  was  puttin;; 

30  in  'lis  lase.  is  not  the  question;  the  (piestiii  is  the  markt* 
value.  The  way  to  prove  market  value  is  to  prove  sales  and 
purchases.  To  do  that  I  will  necessarily  flnd  that  ships  that 
had  something  to  do  with  this  case  had  been  bou>?ht  and  sold. 
Indeed,  this  has  already  been  shown.  .V  vast  majority  of 
the  ships  in  Iteluing  Sea,  and  a  vast  nuijorit.v,  I  think,  of  the 
vessels  that  were  seized,  were  American  vessels.  As  the 
case  is  comini?  up  here  all  are  Hritish  vessels,  and  mostly 
owned  here  in  \'ictoria,  in  ordi.'r  to  show  market  valne  by 
])urchases  and  sales  it  would  be  necessary  to  touch  one  or 

40  more  of  (hese  shijis,  tarefully  avoidin<;,  however,  according  to 
the  intimation  of  the  Commissioners,  going  into  the  question 
of  value  as  to  any  ship  that  was  actually  taken  by  the  T'nited 
States,  for  which  the  United  States  may  be  liable  for  its  full 
value. 

The  (Commissioner  on  th.e  part  of  Her  Majesty: — Afr.  Peters, 
the  value  (tf  this  vessel  is  not  a  material  ino<iirv  in  the  case. 


SO 


r,o 


Mr.  Peters: — It  will  be  to  a  considcable  extent.  Mr.  Dick- 
inson has  taken  <ine  or  two  cases.  For  instance,  the  "Favour- 
ite," and  also  the  "Mary  Ellen;"  he  has  given  a  statement 
that  these  vessils  were  sold,  from  hearsay  evidence,  at  sucli 
a  rate  and  in  such  a  year.  Well,  it  is  (piite  apparent  that  I 
cannot  leave  that  matter  there  when  I  come  to  m.y  rebuttal 
<ase.  It  must  be  necessary  for  me,  if  this  is  gone  into,  to 
show  the  cir»  'imstances  in  which  those  sales  were  nuide.  And 
thos«'  verv  same  matters  wil.  .lave  to  be  investigated  with 
regard  to  those  vessels  hereafter,  and  fully  come  before  this 
Tribunal.  It  does  not  ap])ear  to  me  that  we  will  be  trying 
the  (pieslion  over  twice.  All  that  evedence  must  !)«•  before 
the  Comniissioners  when  those  cases  come  np;  the  circum- 
stances of  these  sales  will  be  b(  fore  the  Court  surel.v,  and  we 
will  really  be  trying  those  cases  ovei'  sevi'ral  times.  That 
was  the  reason,  I  imagine,  why  th«'  Commissioners  at  the  first 
instanc*'  suggested  that  while  we  might  go.  and  did  go,  into 
the  values  of  other  ships,  we  had  better,  so  far  as  jtoHsible. 
keep  away  from  going  into  the  value  of  ships  directly  before 
this  Tribunal. 


411 
(A U'x.  M (-Loan — Di rect.) 

Tlu'  (^*<MiimiHHi(Hi('r  <hi  1Ih>  part  of  th':"  FnittM]  Mtati'H: — In 
llic  ciiHc  «>f  t\u'  "AI'fiH'd  Adams"  d«»  yt»u  <'laiin  demurrage 
(ir  aiiythiii.u  for  the  1ok«  of  tlu-  uw  of  ilio  ship?  How  dtiew 
llic  value  coiiu'  into  thi'  caw  in  any  way? 

Mr.  P('t<'r8: — Wo  do  i-laini  tlie  loss  of  the  use  of  the  ship; 
but  in  many  of  the  cases — 

10  The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  t'nited  States: — Let 
us  take  one  case  at  a  time.  I  have  only  not  the  case  as  laid 
Ix'fore  the  I'aris  (Jommissicm.  There  is  no  claim  for  the  use 
of  the  ship. 

Mr.  Peters:— I  find  that  the  case  of  the  "Alfred  Adams" 
Himply  shows  tliat  we  claimed  that  the  prosecution  of  the 
voyage  of  the  "Alfred  Adams"  in  1887  was  prevented. 

The  Commissioner  on  tlu'    i)art    of    the  Ignited  States: — I 
2Q  think  counsel  »tn  both  sides  have  been  anxious  to  keep  within 
the  rule.     It  was  not  laid  down  as  a  hard  and  fast  rule,  any- 
way. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  do  not  wish  to  jjn^ss  the  objecti'>n  to  any 
urcatcr  extent  than  this,  that  if  my  learned  fiiend  goes  into 
I  lie  sale  of  this  particular  vessel,  we  reserve  ourselvtni  the 
right  to  show  in  rebuttal  the  circumstances  under  which  such 
sale  was  made. 


30 


40 


50 


r.o 


The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — If 
you  will  allow  me  to  make  a  little  sugfjestion ;  it  occurivd  to 
me  the  other  day — I  have  not  talked  witli  my  friend  and  as- 
sociate about  the  matter — if  you  are  i!;oin{j  on  in  these  cases 
to  jirove  the  value  of  these  other  ships,  it  is  impossible  for 
tliat  evidence  to  come  in  here  without  inliuencinff  our  judfj- 
iiienf  about  this  ship.  We  are  human,  any  way.  The  rule 
(IcM's  not  allow  you  to  use  in  this  case  testimony  which  arises 
in  any  subsetjuent  cases;  and  it  may  be  the  transactions 
al)out  those  vessels  will  be  the  best  way  to  get  at  the  value 
of  this  particular  vessel.  Now,  would  it  be  practicable,  in 
soiiie  way  or  another,  to  make  some  sort  of  an  agn-ement  or 
iindcrstandinfj;,  that  evidence  which  is  otfercd  as  to  sales  of 
the  other  vessels  which  an-  now  excluded,  when  they  are 
taken  up,  may  be  used  with  reference  to  the  valuation  of 
this  vessel,  for  example.  I  make  this  suggestion  without  in- 
tt  nding  to  detain  counsel  at  all  now. 

Mr.  Pet«'rs: — Wlu-n  my  learned  friend,  Mr.  Dickinson,  and 
myself  agreed  upon  these  rules  originally,  my  tii-st  suggestion 
was  that  the  rule  should  be  that  we  use  evidenc*'  in  a  subse- 
(|Ufnt  case  in  prior  cases,  liv  suggested  that  we  slumld  have 
it  sometJiing  in  tlu-  form  it  is  now.  My  idea  was  that  it 
would  be  bett«'r  in  a  subsequent  case,  where  I  found  the  evi- 
dence proiM'rly  applicable  to  a  case  befoi-e,  that  I  should  sim- 
jily  state  that  I  intended  to  apply  it  to  the  i)rior  case;  but 
that  did  not  seem  to  m«H't  his  a]>proval  at  the  time.  It  was 
a  mere  matter  of  sugg«'stion  between  us. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — .\s 
ii  general  ruh",  when  trying  «ach  case  by  itself,  that  would 
seem  to  be  impracticable,  because  when  you  are  trying  this 
ruse  you  would  not  know  what  you  were  trying,  nor  what 
your  case  was.  The  defence  would  not  know  what  the  case 
was,  and  neither  would  the  rebuttal.  I  am  looking  at  this 
mere  questiim  of  values.  Of  course  everybodv  knows  that 
we  cannot  hear  th»>se  cases  about  other  vessels  without  hif 
ing  an  im]iressi<Mi  on  our  minds  as  to  the  value  of  this  ves- 
sel,     I  merely  ask  the  ipiestion  without  intending  to  detain 


!ii!: 


iii-i' 


ii;;;' 


!!;■(' 


niijiiip.  js 

■''•:!!t  :i  ..i?;. 


;    ■  1 ; ! 

iiii! 

^¥ 

EA^                   t 

J 

|I!|»!M  MI|llf|W|l 


4t2 


•MIMtoi 


(Alex.  McLcnn — Dirwt.) 

t-oiiiiHcl  iiuw;  iiikI  I  liavc  not  Hpokt'ii  tit  iii.v  fririxl  iiii<]  iiHsot-i- 
iitc  about  it. 

Mr.  DifkiiiHon: — I  tliink  w«'  luivt'  Iwcn  p'ttiufj;  awa.v  from 
v.iiat  w«'  liavt'  boen  (loins  ^^*  thiw  time.  y«nir  llouoiir.  Your 
ilonoui'is  will  rt'iiu'inlHT  tliat  the  mate  of  tlii'  "Dolphiu"  au«l 
of  the  "Favouiit*'"'  were  called  here  uimn  the  t|ueHtioii  of 
jd'obable  nitcli.  They  were  botii  ve»s«'lH  that  wen*  wized. 
lo  Hut  my  frieiulH  put  iu  tiiat  teslimoiiy  in  another  braneh  (»f 
the  ('ase,  uHin(j  the  knowledp'  of  Ihoae  shipH  uh  a  necesHary 
fhinff  to  demonstrate  what  the  jtrobable  eatch  of  tlie  "Caro 
lena"  would  be.  \ow,  I  cannot  show  tlu'  market  value 
without  rnnninf;  across  a  ship  that  has  been  warned. 

The  Commissioner  (m  the  i»art  of  the  Tuited  States: — It  is 
understood,  Mr.  Dickinson,  that  tlie  objection  is  withdrawn, 
so  far  as  this  vessel  is  c«mcerned. 


20 


30 


Q. — Uo  you  remember  any  sale  of  tlie  "Alfred  Adams"? 
A. — Y«>s,  sir,  she  was  sold  here. 
Q.— About  wluit  time?       A.— About  "sr)  or  '8fJ. 
(■i. — And^do  you  remember  at  what  she  was  sold?      A. — 
No,  sir,  I  do  not  know  tin-  rate. 

Q. — The  "l{lack  Diamond"?      A. — She  was  sold  about  the 
same  time;  nuiy  be  a  little  later. 

(J. — Do  you  remember  the  little    "Triumph"?      A. — I     do 
not  know ;  1  believe  she  chaujjed  hands. 
Q.— The  "Juanita?"      A.— She  was  sold. 
Q. — Do  you  remember  tlu'  rate?     A. — No,  sir. 
Q. — Do  you  remember  the  sale  of  the  "Lottie  Fairchild? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Where  was  slu;  built?      A. — She  was  built  in  Nova 
Sc(»tia,  Yarmouth. 

Q. — She  was  a  Nova  Scotia  boat?      A. — Yes.  air. 
Q. — A  good  one?      A. — A  very  jjood  vessel. 
Q. — What  was  her  ajj;*'"'      A. —  |{etwe«'n  four  and  live  vears. 
Q.— That  is  iu  1MS(!?      A.— No,  in  1.S87. 
Q. — What  was  her  lonnaKe?      A. — She  was  l(i4  tons. 
40       Q- — I*t>  ,v<)u  know  whether  she  was  olf«'red  for  sah'  in  Vic 
toria?      A. — Yes,  she  was  ofl'ered  for  sale  here  in  the  fall  of 
1887. 
Q. — Were  there  any  purchasers?      A. — N*;,  sir. 
Q. — She  was  finally  sold?      A. — Slu'  was  sold  in  San  Fran- 
cisco. 

Q. — At  what    rate?       A. — I  couldn't    say     what  rate.       I 
think  about  ?(i,()(M»— J|!0,.')(K>;  she  was  offered  here  for  f<5,0(IO. 
Q. — I  think  you  jjave  her  tonnage  at  1<>4?      A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q. — Was  she  a  well  built  vessel?     A. — She  was  a  w<'ll  built 
50   vessel. 

Q. — And  a  good  one?       A. — Yea,  sir. 
Q. — Siiils,  rigging  and  everything  included?      A. — Yes,  sir, 
everything;  just  as  she  came  in  from  the  sealing  voyage. 

Q. — Now  do  yo\i  remember  the  bigger  "Triumph"     whicli 
came  from  Nova  Scotia?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  was  her  tonnage?      A. — I  beli«'ve  she  is  about 
100  gross;  I  am  not  sure  within  a  few  tons  of  it. 
Q. — By  the  way,  did  the  "Fairchild"  have  any  boats    or 
60  sealing  equipment  wlien  she  was  sold  on  her?      A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q. — The  larger  "Tiiumith"  was  built  in  Nova  Scotia,  wasn't 
she?      A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q. — About  her  tonnage?      A.— About  10(1;  I  am  not  sure. 
Q. — Do  von   remember  her  age?       A. — She  was  built   in 
1887. 

Q. — And  whar  was  sold  with  her?      A. — I  believe  she  was 
put  in  good  condition. 


10 


2J 


-,o 


4^ 


io 


60 


4>3 
(Ah'X.  M«l-»'jiu— IMiHct.) 

Q. — Was  iiiiylliinti;  Mold  with  licr,  iiuliidiii};  boatH  and  ^tiim? 

. — siu>  waH  Hold  ill  tlic  (>aHt  and  bron^lit  ronnd  witliout  boatH 
and  K""^'  *'X*'t'ptiiiK  >*I>>I*  boatH. 

(2. — Tliis.  I  tliink,  wan  one  t)f  your  boats,  wasn't  it?  A. — 
No.  my  l)rotin'r'H. 

il. — Do  yon  know  what  sbc  cont?  A. — I  conldn't  say  as  to 
I  lie  exact  tijinres. 

(J.— Well,  wli.it  did  Nile  Hell  here  for?  A.— I  wasn't  here 
ill  the  time,  but  I  believe  it  was  between  eiplit  and  nine  thou- 
sand dollars. 

.Mr.  IVtei'K: — How  in  the  world  ean  a  man  fjive  evidenee 
when  he  says  he  was  not  hero  at  the  time.  Kurely  we  eonid 
irlvc  the  same  evidence  ourselves. 

Tlie  Commissioner  oii  the  jiart  of  Her  Majesty: — That  is  not 
conipetent.  unless  it  is  proved. 

Q.^— How  did  you  learn  this"?  A. — Through  my  brother, 
by  a  letter  he  got  from  his  other  partner. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  ])art  of  Her  Majesty: — I  would 
nut  rely  on  such  evidence  as  that. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  think  that  should  be  stricken  out. 

(The  above  evidence  relating  to  the  last-named  vessel 
stricken  out.) 

(2. — You  can  ascertain  in  N'ictoria  what  she  was  sold  for'/ 
.\. — I  suppose  I  could. 

(i. — Who  bought  her?      A. — Cox  &  Marvin. 

(■i- — Where  is  your  brother?      A. — In  Central  America. 

i]. — He  is  the  man  that  sold  her,  is  he?      A. — No,  sir. 

g.— Who  did  sell  her?      A.— 1).  C.  IJaker. 

0.— Was  Mcl^ican  a  jiart  owner  then?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

ii. — And  IJaker  was  his  partner?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

*}. — The  "Mollie  Adams"  was  about  what  tonnage?  A. — 
About   12s,  I   should  think. 

Q. — Was  she  sold  here?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

12. — .Vnd  who  bought  her?      A. — Marvin  &  Cox. 

(i.— Here?       A.— Yes,  sir. 

(i.— Did  you  know  the  price?  A. — No,  sir;  I  did  not  know 
I  he  exact   figures. 

<i. — The  "Lilli*"  L.?"  A. — She  was  a  San  Prancisc-  vessel, 
sold  in  San  Francisco. 

(I. — Did  yon  know  anything  about  the  sal<>?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

0- — What  di<l  you  know  aliout  it?  A. — She  was  sold  in 
1S,S7  in  San  Francisco  for  Ifl.WM). 

Q. — What  was  her  tonnage?      A. — She  was  about  02  tons. 

(i. — How  old?  -V. — 1  couldn't  say  as  to  her  age.  She 
used  (o  be  a  steam  yacht  at  San  Francisco. 

(i. — Do  you  know  anything  about  the  sale  of  the  "Mary 
Taylor?"      .V. — I  know  she  was  sold. 

Q.— Sold  h(;re  in  Victoria?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

(■i. — .\nd  the  "Penelope?  A. — She  was  sold  here  in  Vic- 
toria. 

Q.— And  the  "Theresa?"     A.— Sold  in  Victoria. 

(J.— About  what  year?      A.— I  think  it  was  in  18S0. 

i]. — When  did  you  lirst  know  of  the  "Carolena?"  A. — 1 
l;iH'w  her  alxnit  IS'.CJ. 

^l- — What  was  she  doing  then?  A. — I  used  to  see  her  in 
I  lie  harbor  and  met  h»'r  out  at  sea;  I  believe  she  was  jiiloting 
iit  that  iiiie  wlu'ii  I  tirst  knew  her. 

(i. — Did  you  afterwards  see  her  in  port?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q.— Did  you  .see  her  at  sea  afterwards?  A. — I  saw  h<'l"  at 
scii  the  last  time  I  saw  her. 


W. 


;■! 

i 

■ 

m 


vim 


i:i; 


■  j^• 
■^',''■ 


■  ;  -i 


i! 


ill! 


II 


■  M     I  I 


Sffi'i  i 


JJt'Uf!', 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


Co 


414 
(Ah'x.  MiLi'Uii— Diit't't.) 

Q. — Have  you  been  on  board  her?      A. — Ves,  sir. 

y. — How  many  times?  A. — I  couldn't  exactly  say.  I 
have  been  aboard  of  her  several  times. 

Q. — You  would  know  her  when  you  saw  her  at  sea?  A.— 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Do  you  know  her  age?  A.— She  was  pretty  old;  I 
didn't  know  exactly  her  age. 

Q.— Taking  into  consideration  her  age,  and  what  yon  know 
of  the  values  of  vessels  from  y<»ur  own  experience  and  know- 
ledge, what  was  she  worth  in  lHH(i?  A.— Hy  the  age  of  the 
vessel  and  her  appearance  when  I  saw  her  last,  when  I  was 
aboard  of  her — 

Q— When  was  that?  A.— That  would  be  in  18S5;  in  good 
seaworthy  <'ondition  according  to  the  value  of  vessels  here  at 
that  time  she  was  probably  worth  #1,700. 

Q- — At  that  time  did  yon  see  Imu-  before  or  after  she  was 
lengthened?      A. — That  was  after  she  was  lengthened. 

Q. — She  went  up  on  the  coast,  I  believe?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— In  your  experience,  from  1S83  down,  with  seals  in  Keli- 
ring  Sea,  what  have  you  to  say,  if  anything,  as  to  the  chang- 
ing of  the  seals,  their  location  in  the  Sea,  from  time  to  time? 
A.— Well,  it  is  pretty  hard  to  say.  They  change  around  a 
good  deal. 

Q. — What,  in  your  opinion,  from  your  observation,  is  the 
cause  of  the  changing  about?  A. — Well,  it  depends  a  good 
deal  on  the  season  of  the  year  and  how  the  feed  is. 

Q. — What  do  they  feed  on?  A. — They  travel  wherever 
the  feed  moves  I0. 

Q.— What  is  the  fticd?      A.— Principaly  flsh. 

Q. — Can  you,  from  your  observation  in  sealnig,  from  18H;{ 
down,  tell  from  the  seasons  preceding  whether  you  will  in 
the  coming  season  be  able  to  find  seal  in  any  particular  place 
or  zone?  A. — I  don't  believe  tlu're  is  any  certainty.  I  kept 
a  book  of  reference  for  this  reason. 

Q. — You  kept  the  book  with  references  where  you  made 
good  catches  of  seal?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  j'ou  have  been  in  there  again  in  the  same  places? 
A. — Yes,  sir.  IMaced  it  on  the  duirt  thinking  it  might  be  of 
some  use  to  me,  but  I  found  it  wasn't. 

Q. — Did  you  ever  find  any  rule  whereby  you  could  And 
the  seals  a  second  time?  A. — The  only  rule  I  liave  found  was 
if  they  were  not  in  one  place  to  go  and  hunt  for  them. 

Q. — How  far  does  tliis  separation  or  variety  of  place  ex- 
tend? You  have  been  up  to  the  Aleutian  Islands?  A.— 
Yes. 

Q. — Of  course  you  fished  around  tlie  Aleutian  Islands?  A. 
— Yes,  sir;  I  fished  around  a  little  bit  there. 

Q. — And  how  far  is  the  volcano  from  that  fishing  ground? 
A.— Bogoslolf? 

Q.— Yes,  Bogoslofif?  A.— Well,  that,  I  should  think,  is 
about  25  or  30  miles  from  the  islands. 

Q. — Have  you  found  them  about  the  Aleutian  Islands? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

y. — And  at  another  time,  liow  far  away  have  you  found 
them?  A. — Sometimes  within  ten  miles  of  the  beach,  and 
sometimes  much  farth«'r. 

Q. — How  far  away  from  the  island?  A. — I  used  to  find 
the  best  liunting  about  sixty  or  seventy  miles  off,  or  even  00 
miles. 

Q. — Are  yon  speaking  of  the  Pinbyloff  Islands?  A. — Either 
the  PribylofT  Islands  or  the  main  islands  abreast  of  tliem. 

Q. — Now,  in  18Sf!  you  got  a  pretty  good  cat»-h  outside  of 
Behring  Sea,  didn't  you?  .\. — Some  years  a  pretty  fair 
catch  l)efore  I  went  into  the  Sea. 

t). — How  many?     A. — I  have  not  added  them  up. 


10 


415 
(AU-x.  .M(L«'iiii— Diiftl.) 

H. — I'lciiNc  It'll  <lu'  ('oniiiiiHHioiifrH  wliat  iii-c  (lie  fair 
wrutiicr  jfroiindH?  A. — What  we  call  (lie  fair  wcatluT 
;;riMindH  Ih  iroin  Sitka  to  Coriac;  a  rcrtain  part  In  niarkod 
i:n  the  ciiart   Fair  Woatlicr  OroinulH. 

(i.— In  HcliiliiK  Hcu?  A.— No.  Hir.  in  tln'  I'aritlc.  in  the 
(inlf  of  S(Hith  AlaNkn. 

Q. — Will  yon  jdcaw  sec  what  catch  .von  made  in  the  fair 
weather  ){ronndH  as  part  of  yonr  eatcli  in  ISHCi?  A. — In  IHHC 
I  did  ni»t  n(»  to  tlie  fair  w«'ather  ^ronnds,  sir. 

Mr.  Diekinxon; — At  thit*  point  I  nted  tlie  loj;,  which  iH  not 
liere.  wl>i»h  I  ask  my  learned  friend  to  ]irodnce.  (To  witneHw) 
Can  yon  tijjure  it  from  tlmt  li(M>k,  tlie  fair  weather  catch? 
\. — i  did  not  hnnt  on  any  fair  weather  ^ronnds  in  18S(!. 

(i. — Then  yon  have  a  different  catch  called  the  coast  catch? 
.\.— Yes. 

Q. — There  is  what  y<ni  <all  the  coast  catch  and  the  fair 
20  weather  catch?  A. — The   coast  catch   and  the  Rehrint?  Hea 
4atch. 

Q. — Did  yon  not  sometimes  distin^nish  the  coast  catch  from 
liie  fair  weather  catch?  A. — I  nsnally  pnt  the  fair  weather 
catch  in  with  the  nehrin};  Sea  catch. 

il — Well,  if  yon  ^ive  ns  the  c<iast  catch  ontside  of  the  Heh- 
rinu;  Sea  catch?  A. — We  nsnally  class  that  with  the  Helir- 
in>;  Sea  catch,  when  tlwy  come  in  here. 

ii. — Ciin  yon  tell  ns  the  coast  <'ntch  without  your  lofj,  fntm 
tliis  hook?      A. — Yes,  sir. 
30      Q. — ^Vill  you  {jive  us  the  const  cati-h,  if  you  can?      A. — 
AM.  I  believe,  up  to  the  i:$th  of  .May,  ISSti. 

iy — Now.  is  there  anythin;i;  outside  of  that  coast  catch  for 
tliat  year?      A. — Yes.  sir.  from  July  !)tli  until  Aufjust  ^Otli. 

(i. — All  coast  catch?       A. — No,  sir,  Hehrinfj  Sea  catch. 

The  ('ommissi<nier  on  the  i»art  of  the  United  States: — He 
lias  not  fiiveii  the  Hehriu);  Sea  catch? 

.Mr.  IMckinstm: — No,  sir. 
40      The  t'ouunissiouei's  then  arose. 


i:-ii;i 


'4  mm 


1: 


;';>;  ■! 


!!■ 


Commissioners  under  the  Convention  of  February  8,  1896,  between 
Great  Britain  and  the  United  States  of  America. 

Thambers  of  the  Legislative  Assembly, 

At  Victoria,  December  12,  1896. 

At  lO.JJO  the  Comiiiissioners  took  their  seats. 


Direct  examination   of   Captain   McLean   resumed  by  Mr. 
Dickinson. 

(i- — You   were  {jiving  us  the  catch  of  the  "Favourite,"  I 

liiink,  in  18H(>.  outside  of  Hehriuf?  Sea?      A.— Outside  of  Ileh- 

iin<j  Sea.       I  had  catches  in  the  Hehring  Sea,  but  it  did  not 

make  up  the  amount  for  188r — 41!). 

'J'^       (}.-  All  the  i-est  of  the  catch  of  1880  was  inside  of  llehriuR 


-ca : 


A.— Y'es. 


Tlie  ('(uiiniissioner  <»n  the  jiart  of  the  T'nited  States: — 
1 'lease  l«'t  him  make  the  deduction,  and  put  it  so  it  can  go 
into  the  record. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — (iive  us  the  total,  and  then  make  the  de- 
duction?     A.— Ii078. 


II'! 


^ 


'hiMi.i 


lO 


416 

(Ali'X.  Mchi'iiii-lMnrl.) 

ti. — And  (111'  catfli  <iiitNi(l(>;  jimt  nlw  \\w  Imlaiu-c?  A. — 
-ll!)  on  tli(>  <'()iiHt,  '2'2T>'.t  in  ItclirinK  Hca. 

Q. — Now,  CapCain,  Im»w  lat*'  woro  von  in  lU'liiinf;  St-a  in 
AiijiUHt?      A.— In  lSH(i? 

(i. — Yj'h,  Hir.  A. — I  iuivi'  the  daU-K  of  (li-Ht  low«'rinn  an<l 
tin'  hiHt.  .Inly  !)(h  (lu>  tli-Ht  lowt'i-in^'  in  lHS(i,  and  An^UHt 
liltli  \h  tli*>  laHt  lowering. 

Q. — Can  .v(tn  tell  ns  the  nnniluT  of  lowt'i-in^H  in  the  niontli 
of  An^nHt  in  nnikinR  thaf  catch?  A. — Five  i-c^nlar  lowiT- 
infTH  in  Au{;nHt. 

Q.— And  what  wan  the  catch  of  AnjjnHt  in  this  2!l(»(l  and 
odd  in  Itch  ring  8ca?      A.— r»7r>. 

Q. — And  the  l»ahinc«'  of  the  catch  waH  talicn  between  the 
!»th  of  July  and  I  he  iHt  of  Angust?      A. — Vch,  hIt. 

Q.— Now  with  reference  to  the  "Maiy  KUen"  in  1HM7,  will 
yon  jdeaHe  itiv<'  uh  the  Fair  Weather  catch;   I    think  there 
was  mnne  confiiHion  about  it  yenterday?       A. — On  the  Fair- 
20    Weather  groundH? 

(i.— YcH       A.-That  waH  i;«». 

(). — And  the  balance  of  the  catch — you  fjave  the  total 
catch,  I  think?  A. — Vch,  nir;  tliere  wum  SU7  before  tlu'  vch- 
Kel  h'ft  tlie  |»ort  here. 

(i.-  That  iH  included  in  tlie  total?  A. — Yes,  sir,  that  is 
includt'd  in  the  total. 

(i.— And  what  Ih  the  total?      A.— L'4)t)i. 

Q.— In  the  Hea?      A.— No,  that  is  the  total,  sir. 

(J— That  included  the  .S(M>  you  had  Kiven  and  the  1(14?  A. 
30  — Yes,  sir. 

H- — So  that  your  total  cntch  was  how  much''       A. — '24'Mi. 

(i.— And  the  total  catch  in  IVhrinf;  Hea?      .*       IS.-M*. 

Q. — Hetwet'U  what  dates  were  yini  in  Bt'hrii  ■?      A. — 

July  IHth  until  Au<rust  1!)th. 

Q. — The  last  day  you  lowered  was  the  IDtli,  1  think — the 
"Mary  Kllen?"      A.— Yes.  sir. 

Q. — When  did  you  leave  the  Sea?  A. — Shortly  af(<'r  that. 
Probably  a  day  or  tw()  after. 

Q. — Now  in  your  «'Xi)erience  in  sealing  in  Ttehring  S«'a  is 
'^^   tliere  any  sealing  which  would  be  aiivthing  more  than  scat- 
tering before  the  1st  of  July?      A.— There  might  have  been, 
but  I  n««'er  found  it. 

Q. — Not  in  alJ  your  experience?      A. — No,  sir. 

(}. — And  abou*:  what  time  does  the  sealing  commence?  .\. 
— I  used  to  try  and  get  in  there  about  the  4tli  of  July. 

Q. — And  the  season  dosed  when?  A. — About  the  2(Mh  to 
the  25th. 

Q. — Year  in  an<l  year  out?  A.— Sometimes  earli<'r.  and 
sometimes  as  late  as  the  2r>tli.  I  have  been  there  as  late  as 
September. 

(J. — Did  you  have  any  sealing  in  Sejytember?  A. — Y'es.  sir, 
we  had  some. 

Q. — Was  that  exceptional,  renuiining  over  iintil  Septem- 
ber?      A. — Yes,  urusual. 

Q. — I  believe  I  did  not  ask  you  in  regard  to  the  "Active.'' 
Do  you  know  tlu-  schooner  "Active?"'  A. — Yes,  sir;  she  was 
in  Victoria  here  some  years  ago. 

Q. — Where  was  she  from?       A. — She  was  built  up  here  in 
^   British  Columbia. 

Q.— Built  of  this  Douglas  pine?  A.— Yes,  I  believe  so; 
I  am  not  perfectly  sure,  though. 

Q. — Did  you  know  the  ship?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — I  would  like  to  ask  you  a  qu«'stion  T  have  omitted. 
What  is  the  concern  at  Sim  Francisco  which  deals  in  ships? 
A. — There  is  a  tirm  there,  TT.  Liebes  &  Po. 

Q. — Wliat  is  'ts  business?      A. — Fur  business. 


SO 


lo 


20 


30 


40 


S^ 


60 


417 
(Ali'X.  MiLfim— UiicH.) 

(j. — And  doi'H  it  ilf:il  in  HliipK,  in  tlu>  furlniNinfHK,  and  Bonl- 
iiij{?      A. — YvH,  Hir;  it  um-d  lo. 

il — And  in  it  tiic  liifbt'H  &  Co.  tlim  di'iiln  alont;  tlie  couHt 
lii'iT  from  lu'io  10  Itt'lirin;;  Hca?  A. — Tli«'y  ""''d  l«»  buy  fui'H 
lu'ic;  alMo  iiad  vchmcIh  of  tlirir  own  out. 

il- — Will  .voii  pleaKc  Htatr  wln'tln'r  ,von  havo  acted  for 
I.IcIh'h  &  ("o.  in  llu'  cxaniiiiation  of  v»'h.scIh  for  purt-liaHc?  A. 
— VcM,  sir;  I  liavc. 

(i. — Von  have  b«'('n  t-niploycd  for  that  pnrpotu',  have  v<ni 
not?      A. — Yt'B,  sir. 

Q.— For  jnirposi's  of  purchaHO?  A.  — Yi'H,  Hir;  for  pur- 
p(»8('8  of  purchase. 

Mr.  DickinHon: — I  oniitted  to  ask  tlu'  witncsH  an  to  tliis,  if 
llic  (.'oinnilHKioni  rH  jtleaHo,  on  the  qui'Htion  of  cHtabliHliiuK  hiu 
competency  and  exjierience. 

Q.— Wliat  is  the  lohnajje  of  the  "Active,"  about?  A.— 
Well,  I  sliould  think  she  would  be  probably  about  40  tons; 
mijflit  be  a  few  tonH  over  or  Ichh. 

ii. — Hhe  waH  a  sealer,  was  she?  A. — Hhe  was  built  for 
Healing  and  she  had  been  out  sealinf;. 

Q. — About  what  was  her  age  in  1.S86?  A. — I  think  she 
was  about  a  year  old  then. 

Q. — And  what  was  she  sold  for?  A. — She  was  sold  here 
in  1HH«,  here  I  think  it  was,  for  about  |;{.80(>. 

Q.— f:{,8(K»  or  ^:{.4(M»?       A.— I  was  told  |.1,8()0. 

ti. — Who  told  you  so?      A. — The  owner  of  the  vessel. 

Q. — Who  was  Ihe  owner?       A. — lie  was  Thomas  Earle. 

(i.— Who  did  he  sell  to?      A.~Outtman  &  Co. 

Mr.  Peters: — Surely  the  statement  that  the  owner  of  the 
Nliil»  told  him  he  paid  so  much  for  the  vessel  cannot  be  admis- 
sible. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  desire  to  say  a  word  on  that  more  flian 
I  said,  and  I  said  nothing,  yesterday.  _  If  we  understand  the 
rule,  may  it  ph>ase  your  Honours,  as  to  when,  what  is  called 
in  the  text  books  of  evidence  secondjiry  or  hearsay  evidence 
may  be  put  in,  having  fjeneral  knowledfje  of  the  market,  we 
can  always  jtrove  by  an  experienced  man  who  has  had  to  do 
with  the  purchas(>  and  sale  of  ships,  and  who  has  been  de- 
voted to  tile  business,  the  current  sales  by  repute  in  the  mar- 
ket. We  submit  that  this  is  so,  on  the  question  of  value  where 
iliat  question  comes  up  collaterally  in  all  courts,  English 
and  .\merican.  I  will  concede — and  of  course  I  would  not 
stand  for  a  moment  to  contend — that  we  could  show  the  price 
of  the  "<"arolena,"  for  instance,  if  she  had  been  sold  by  this 
witness,  and  where  the  (piestion  of  the  v.'ilue  of  the  "Caro- 
Iciia"  for  recovery  was  in  issue;  but  where  we  are  seekinj;  to 
establish  a  market  and  the  sah's  of  other  ships,  to  show  that 
otlier  sliips  have  been  sold,  and  what  prices  they  broujjht. 
iiny  one  familiar  witii  the  market  can  tell,  subject  to  cross- 
ixaniination  to  show  the  unieliability  of  the  witness,  either 
fioni  llu'  fact  -n  his  incompet«Micy  in  not  beinji  familiar  v.th 
liie  market  or  from  his  testimony,  that  he  could  not  havt^ 
Ix'cu  in  a  jxisilion  to  know.  Of  course  if  we  were  seeking  to 
show  the  sale  of  the  "Cai-oleni'"  at  some  i>rior  year,  we  will 
sMV  for  illustrali<m  in  1SS4.  we  could  not  ask  this  witness 
wlial  the  then  owner  told  him,  the  then  owner  n«tt  being  this 
(l.iiniant.  That  would  be  hearsay,  and  would  be  excluded 
of  coin-se;  but  in  seekinj:  to  show  the  price  of  another  ship 
like  the  "Active"  at  any  ])eriod  in  order  to  establish  a  mar- 
ket, we  do  not  understand  that  it  is  nec«'ssary  to  jtrove  by 
tlie  j)arties  themselves  the  fact  of  the  sale.  We  can  estab- 
lish by  n'juite  in  the  current  market  the  sale  of  ships  and 
ill..  i)i'ic,.s  tlu'y  then  brought.       Of  co\irse  the  testimony  is 

27 


mm 


mi 


»m 


mm 


Niiiil 


'•' 'I '! 

a^ 

ill' 

!  :    : 

J :,,'';'.  ii^ 

OK 

'!  ' 

<;l^;3 

^H 

;.■:";':;' 

1 

ii 

! 

1 
i 
I 

Ui, 

p?ff,'irt''r''  ■'  "■■" 


I--' 


•1, 


lO 


20 


418 

(Alex.  Milivau — Dirwt.) 

fsubjuct  to  LTOHH  exauiiuutiou;  but  I  Bubiuit  tliut  tluH  iu  ouv  uf 
the  i'X«H'iytU»n8  whore  hearsay  evidence  is  adiuitted  uh  the 
most  eoinpetent — the  most  welcoiue — as  to  the  current  valueti 
and  the  condition  of  tlie  market  at  an.v  time,  naniin(>,-  it. 

Mr.  Peters: — In  answer  to  that:  This  gentleman  is 
brought  here  to  give  evidence  as  to  the  value  of  vessels — I 
presume  as  an  expert  to  a  certain  extent.  Now  when  he 
conies  to  give  evidence  as  an  expert  it  is  very  well  for  him 
to  give  evidence  of  certain  facts  and  what  his  opinion  as  to 
the  value  of  cerlaiu  vessels  may  be;  but  when  he  comes  to  go 
beyond  that,  and,  because  he  is  an  expert,  to  give  evidence  as 
to  facts,  that  is  ditferent.  He  is  asked:  Did  the  owner  of 
this  vessel  say  so  and  so?  My  learned  friend  says  we  can 
cross-examine  about  that.  What  can  we  cross-exam- 
ine about?  All  I  can  get  out  of  him  on  cross- 
examination  is  to  show  whether  the  owner  told  him 
that  or  not,  and  that  is  not  material  here.  The  nuestion  here 
is.  what  did  the  vessel  sell  for,  and  that  can  be  proved  by  the 
owner;  that  can  be  pr«»ved  as  a  fact;  and  because  this  man 
has  some  exi»erience  about  vessels  it  does  not  in  any  way 
make  his  evidence  any  stronger  as  to  a  fact  of  which  he  has 
no  personal  knowledge. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Suppose,  may  it  please  your  Honours,  it 
became  material  to  establish  the  price  of  wheat  at  Liverpool 
on  a  given  day.  We  certainly  would  not  be  required  to  produce 

30  the  man  who  saw  the  money  passed.  We  would  show  by  a 
man  familiitr  wi(h  the  wheat  business  what  is  known  in  the 
trade  as  the  price  at  Liverpool.  We  could  show — and  it  would 
not  be  as  strong  evidence-  as  the  oral  testimony  of  a  nuin  on 
the  stand — the  prices  <-urrent  and  in  use  in  the  trade.  That 
would  be  inferior  testimony  to  that  of  a  man  in  the  trade, 
not  interested  in  the  controversy,  and  who  testitied  as  to  tlie 
market.  The  fallacy  of  my  learned  friend's  jtositiim,  if  you 
will  permit  me  to  say  so,  is  that  the  (piestion  liere  is  not  this 
witness'  o])iiiion  of  values  of  these  olhei'  ships,  but.  what  is 
the  market  value?  That  is  the  true  criterion  on  which  the 
(|uestion  of  the  value  of  the  "Carolemi"  turns — what  is  her 
market  value?  Testimony  has  been  admitted  here,  as  hav- 
ing some  teiidiMicy  to  show  value,  of  the  cost  of  a  ship;  and 
the  cost  of  a  ship  at  Xova  Scotia  has  even  been  admitted,  for 
the  reason  that  ihe  «'videnc«'  of  market,  on  the  theory  of  my 
learned  friend  here,  was  not  at  hand,  for  the  place  here  at 
N'ictoria.  So  we  have  gone  across  the  continent,  established 
a  value  at  Xova  Scotia,  and  added  to  that  tlu>  cost  of  bringing 
the  vessel  here,  so  as  to  establish  a  market  value,  and  solely 

5°  for  (hat  purpose.  IT«  re  we  show  by  a  witn<'ss.  who  has  been 
accust«imed  to  the  trade  since  sealing  commenced,  the  ac- 
tual sah's  of  vessels;  that  liis  attention  is  constantly  given  to 
it,  and  has  been  all  tliese  years;  that  he  was. at  the  time  fii- 
miliar  with  the  wliole  fleet  of  vessels,  American  and  Kritisli, 
engaged  in  th"  sealing  businens;  familiar  with  the  dates,  as 
he  has  disclosed,  of  Ihe  origin  of  vessels,  building;  familiar 
with  Ihe  facts  as  to  their  changing  hands.  Now  it  is  c<t 
taiiily  not  necessary  iti  establishing  market  value  to  prove  by 
an  expert  familiar  with  the  trade  that  he  saw  the  money 
]»asse»l  or  saw  the  contrait  signed. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty; — It  doi's 
not  ai»i>i'ar  that  (he  practice  in  the  courts  of  (he  I'nKed  States 
and  the  courts  of  (his  country  is  the  same  upon  (his  |ioin(; 
and,  (lierifore,  there  being  a  fair  difference  of  opinion  upon 
it,  we  will  ill  aicordance  with  our  usual  jilan.  re<eive  (he 
evidence,  and  let  (he  ma((er  be  subject   (o  further  observa- 


41 


60 


20 


419 
(Alex.  MfLwin— Dii-wt.) 

tioii,  arguincut  and  objection.       Tlio  objection  is  noted,  of 
course. 

The  OoniniiHsioner  on  ihe  jmrt  of  tlie  I'nited  States: — I 
wiaii,  liowever,  to  state  tlie  qualitication  that  this  is  not  to  be 
considered  so  broad  as  to  permit  ev«'ivbody  t«t  come  lien*  and 
(estif.v  tliat  the.v  liave  lieard  about  sales.  It  lias  been  quite 
customary  for  brokers,  or  «'xj»ert8  dcaliiif;  in  sliips  and  vessels 
'0  in  our  courts,  to  permit  tlieni  to  testify  as  (o  tlieir  Ivnowledpn; 
of  sales  on  open  nnii-kct;  but  I  never  have  known  a  person 
to  be  allowed  to  conu'  in  .uid  testify  to  tlu'  sale  for  the  pnr- 
jiose  of  proving  that  sale.  This  lias  been  admitt(>d  in  our 
courts  rather  in  snp[H>rt  of  tlu'  t»'stimony  of  the  expert,  to 
show  his  extent  of  knowled!?e  and  sources  of  knowledge,  and 
so  forth  and  so  forth.  I  reii."niber  that  there  are  some  cases, 
and  I  think,  as  I  told  my  learned  ass(»<iate,  that  the  Supreme 
Court  of  the  United  Stat^-s  has  pone  over  this  question  quite 
thorouRhly.  We  do  not  intend  by  this  to  open  the  door  be- 
yond (lie  present  condition  of  things. 

Hy  Mr.  Dickinson: 

(i. — Now,  Captain  McLean,  will  you  state  whether  it  has 
been  a  part  of  your  business  to  keep  posted  as  to  the  value 
(if  ships  and  the  sales  going  on  along  (he  coast?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

ii. — You  have  endeavored  to  k»'ep  posted  on  sales  of  ships 
ill  the  sealing  business?     A. — Yes,  sir. 
30       (i.— Since  18S5  or  1H8(i?     A.— Since  1884. 

i], — And  yon  say  that  the  "Active,"  from  the  iuf«H'mation 
yoi.  had  derived  in  your  l»usiness,  was  sold  in  188(»?  A. — 
ISS(i  or  the  I.  iter  ]»art  of  188,'>,  I  am  not  sure  which. 

ti.— And  sold  for  !j!;{,8(l(»?  A.— Yes,  sir,  that  is  what  I  am 
informed  by  the  owner  that  built  In-r. 

(J. — And  will  you  pl<>ase  stat<'  what  went  with  the  "Ac- 
live."  what  was  sold,  what  equipment  went  with  her?  A. — 
Well,  she  was  supposed  to  be  in  a  seaworthy  condition;  she 
was  a  new  vessel. 

(i.— Sails  and  tackh'?     A. — Sails,  tackle  and  anchors. 

ii. — And  the  usual  accoutrements  and  paraphernalia?  A. 
—Yes,  sir. 

Q — Any  of  the  sealing  outfit  go  with  her?  A. — Not  as  I 
know  of.  ()f  course  I  never  examined  (he  vessel,  1  expected 
of  «'ourse  she  was  ready  for  sen. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  suppose  (hen,  may  i(  please  your  Hon- 
oms.  (hat  the  testimony  of  this  same  chiviacter  as  to  the  "The- 
resa." which  was  siricken  out  yes(erday,  may  s(and? 

Tile  ("ommissioner  on  (lie  pari  m  Hie  I'litcd  States: — "So, 
lliiU  s(ands  enlirely  diiferent.  Thai  was  information  wliii'h 
Hie  widiess  got  in  a  foreign  coiini  >  by  a  letter  from  his 
linidicr.  who  knew  nothing  abo','  Mie  matter  excejit  hy 
liearsiiy. 

Mr.  Dickinson; — 1(  was  his  business  to  find  out  what  that 
l")a(  sold  for. 

Co  Tile  ("omniissioner  on  (he  part  of  the  Unite*!  States: — Of 
course  we  are  acting  here  wi(liou(  an  exami'.Ki'.iou  of  aiiih- 
iiiKies;  bu(  my  learned  associa(e  yielded  radiei  (o  my  ini 
picssioii  as  (o  wlia(  I  had  witnessed  as  (he  pracdce  in  onr 
c()nr(s.  The  pracdce  in  our  couris.  in  connection  with  (he 
iisliiiiony  of  exper(s,  has  been  (o  jiermii  (hem  (o  s(a(e  as  (o 
s.iles  of  vessels  and  nn'rchandise  on  (he  open  market,  under 
Mich  circumstances  (lia(  they  had  almos(  primary  knowledge 
"'Idle  transaction.     K  has  no(  been  adniKted  even  there  for 


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n! 

ij 

'■■•■'         .1ft 

i-'H 


;li 


rn- 


420 

(Alex.  McLwin — Dircrl.) 

Ilu"  purpoat'  of  i»roviiiK  wliat  jutually  took  pliice,  l»nt  siinpl.^ 
as  snpportiiip  tlie  ti'stiinonj  of  the  exix'i't  as  to  tlic  value 
which  h(>  gives  with  leferciuv  to  the  property  directly  in  issue. 
1  do  not  linow  but  what  the  rule  may  ro  furtlier,  hut  we  are 
without  any  authorities  here;  and,  as  I  say,  my  learned  as 
sociale  yielded  to  my  recollection  of  the  practice  as  I  have 
witnessed  it  in  court. 

'O  Mr.  Dickinson: — I  siin]>ly  wanted  to  call  n\>  the  case  of  the 
"Theresa,"  b<'cause  I  intend«'d  to  call  it  ui>  and  say  a  few 
words  yesterday,  which  I  did  not  do  as  your  Honours  r«'meni- 
her,  I  did  not  present  any  views  from  our  standpoint  as  to  the 
competency  of  the  testimony. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  rnited  States: — I 
do  not  know  bui  the  hite  editions  of  (Sreenleaf  on  evidence, 
and  other  authorities,  niuy  sustain  you;  but,  so  far  as  I  re- 
member, this  testimony,  would  be  entirely  outside  of  any- 
20   thing  we  intended  to  admit. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  do  not  mean  to  insist  on  having  contents 
of  his  brother's  letter  go  in;  but  the  (piestion  came  uj)  liow 
he  knew,  and  he  mentioned  (hat,  and  I  pursued  the  matter 
no  further,  thinking  I  would  call  it  vip  when  opportunity  of- 
fe>'(-d. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  pari  of  the  I'nitcd  States: — Fo' 
exampl«>:  Mere  is  <i  grain  broki'r,  summoned  as  a  witness 
as  to  the  price  of  grain  in  New  York.  lie  can  testify  as  to 
33  the  daily  (piotations  of  grain  in  New  York,  although  he  is 
not  even  on  the  Stock  Exchange.  He  hears  only  about  sales, 
bui  it  would  be  far  beyond  that  for  him  to  testify  as  to  sales 
which  t«tok  place  in  New  York  when  he  was  at  Shanghai. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — If  I  may  be  permitted  I  will  ask  a  «iuestiou 
or  two  now,  in  view  of  the  intimations  wo  have  from  the 
( ourt,  r-'lative  lo  the  "Theresa" — not  as  to  value,  but  simply 
to  Hi'o'.v  wlK'ther  the  witness  is  competent  within  the  rule. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  jtart  of  the  United  States: — I  un- 
40  d'.'rstand  that  the  witness  was  abroad,  and  that  the  letter 
.ame  to  him  fr<nn  his  brother. 


Kl't! 


Mr.  Dickinson: — His  brother  was  abroad.  That  is  the 
very  point  I  asked  permission  to  interrogate  the  witness 
.ibout. 

To  Witness: — I  will  ask  voii  whether  vou  were . 


Mr.  IN'ters: — One  moment.  Mi'.  Dickinson.  Hefoiv  niy 
learned  friend  asks  any  ((in'stions  more  about  the  "Theresa." 
50  I  want  to  j»ut  myself  on  record  as  raising  an  <»bjection  to  this 
(•lass  (»f  evidence.  We  first  had  the  cas'  of  the  "Active," 
which  the  court  has  dealt  with,  and  now  we  have  the  "Ther 
esa,"  which  was  excluded  yesterday,  i'iid  a  reference  to  the 
facts  of  that  case  will  show  the  danger  of  this  class  of  evi- 
dence. 

The  C(»mmissioner  on  the  jiart  of  the  Cnitcd  States: — W  <• 
have  not  decided  to  admit  the  evidence'  yet. 

(3(,       Mr.  IV'ters: — 1  strongly  contend  that  the  whole  evidenc  i:< 
inadmissible. 


The  Commissioner  ou  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — Lei 
me  illustrate  the  <'xtent  of  the  ruling  of  the  <'omm'tssioners. 
Here  is  a  vessel  in  distress  at  Shanghai.  She  was  repaired 
by  the  mortgagi'e,  against  !he  mortgagor's  protest,  at  a  very 
enormous  expense,  and  the  mortgagor's  claims  that  she  should 


10 


421 

(Alt'X.  McFican — Direct.) 

Iijive  boon  sold  lliorc.  In  tliat  <'aso  evidence  of  persons  at 
SlianKiiai  would  be  admitted  as  to  tlu?  value  of  vessels  there, 
the  cost  of  repairinfj,  ( ost  of  towape  and  all  that  sort  of  tiling. 
They  are  simply  experts  tc'stifying  as  to  their  knowledge  of  the 
market.  Now  sui)po8inK  one  of  those  gentlemen  had  been 
at  New  York  when  the  ship  was  sold  at  Shanghai,  and  InuI 
simply  known  by  lettir  that  she  was  sold  there  at  such  priiSl' 
and  such  time;  the  evidence  would  not  hav«'  be<'n  admitted. 

Mr.  Dickinson:- -To  shorten  this  matter,  the  ruling  as  to 
(he  "Theresa"  thai  th<'  testimony  was  not  competent  was  de- 
livered by  your  Honour  yesterday.  On  a  mere  intimati*)n 
from  your  Honour  that  it  had  better  stand  as  it  is,  I  will  rot 
l)res8  it. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  United  States: — That  is 
for  mv  learned  associate. 


40 


2Q       Tlie  fommissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — fan  you 
alter  the  circumstances  connected  with  the  matter? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  was  about  to  attempt  it. 

The  Tommisioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — I  think. 
it  should  be  ojien  to  you  to  see  if  you  can  alter  the  circum- 
stance so  as  to  bring  it  within  the  same  categorv  ns  the 
'•.Vctive?" 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  had  no  idea  of  attempting  to  put  it  in. 
^0  unless  it  was  agreeal)Ie  to  your  Honour. 

Q. — Now  (.'aptain  McLean  there  seems  to  be  a  misunders- 
tanding. \>'ere  you  away  from  the  coast  at  the  time  of  the 
sale  of  the  "Theresa?"'  A. — I  think  there  is  a  misuuder- 
slanding  about  the  "Theresa"  and  the  schooner  "Triumph." 

Q. — What  misunderstanding  do  you  refer  to,  captain?  A. 
— .My  brother  never  had  anv  connection  with  the  schooner 
"Theresa." 

(i- — It  was  the  "Triumph?"      A. —  It  was  the  "Triumph." 

(i. — It  was  the  "Triumph"  as  whicii  you  stated  something 
with  regard  to  her  sale  yestc n.iy  when  your  testimony  was 
stricken  out,  where  you  sp(tke  of  a  letlir  from  vour  brother? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Now,  were  you  out  of  the  country  or  away  from  the 
coast  when  the  "Triumph"  was  sold?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

(.1 — Where  were  you?      A. — I  was  in  San  Francisco. 

(i. — The  "Triumph"  as  you  \inderstood  it  was  sold  \\\)  hei'e? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

il — You  said  your  brother  was  in  South  America,  did  you 
not?      A. — He  was  in  San  Francisco  at  that  time. 

il. — In  your  experience  in  sealing  you  have  employed  can- 
oes frequently?      A. — Yes,  sir,  at  limes. 

Q. — Will  you  please  stale  whether  the  use  of  canoes  with 
while  men  was  as  advantageous  as  the  use  of  canoes  with 
Indians,  ov  <tf  boats  with  white  men  in  sealing?  A. — I  never 
used  ihem,  that  is.  canoes  with  white  men.  I  have  known  of 
one  vessel  that  used  them. 

(i.— Wil  you  please  state  witli  reference  to  the  practice  in 
liie  business  whether  the  use  of-  canoes  with  white  men  was 
or  was  not  abandoned  after  1SS(!?      A.— It  has  been. 

(i— F^ntirely  abandoned?       A.— So  far  as  I   know,  yes. 

().— What  was  the  ditttculty  in  hunting  with  a  canoe?  A. 
-White  men  are  not  accustomed  to  handling  <anoes. 

Q.— .\re  they  cranky?  .\. — They  are  hard  to  stand  in 
to  shoot. 

(J. — You  have  to  have  a  pretty  certain  aim?      .\. — Ves.  sir. 

Q. — .\nd  pretty  steady  footln,);?  .\. — A  person  must  have 
*-<iine  foundation  to  stand  on. 


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20 


30 


40 


50 


Co 


422 

(Alex.  M<-liCjiii — Dirt'ct.) 

Q. — And  yoii  do  Hot  know  of  thdr  being  oniployod  at  all 
in  tlie  sealing  buBincss,  although  the  sealing  bushiess  had 
largely  increased  after  1880?  A.— There  might  have  been  an 
odd  one  occusionall.v. 

Q- — Was  it  considered  good  sealing  to  use  canoes  with 
white  men?  A. — No.  sir,  the  white  men  generally  use  boats, 
and  the  Indians  use  canoes. 

Q.— Will  you  please  state,  Captain  McLean,  where,  in  1880 
and  1887,  was  the  best  and  clieai»est  outfit  for  sealing  in 
Behring  Sea  to  be  obtain.'d,  and  the  best  hunters?  A.— In 
1880,  San  Frandsco. 

Q.— And  as  to  the  outtit?      A.— For  the  outfit  too . 

Q.— Were  there  outfitters  there  devoting  their  whole  time 
to  outfitting,  fishing  vessels  and  sealers?  A.— Some  nuide  a 
business  of  it,  yes,  sir. 

Q. — Will  you  please  tell  us  as  to  the  large  catches  of  seals, 
what  is  the  condition  of  seals  in  these  large  catclies,  are  they 
running  or  asleep?      A. — Mostly  asleep. 

Q- — r>o  you  know  of  any  large  catches  being  made  of  run- 
ning seals,  seals  awake  we  will  say?  A. — They  kill  a  good 
many  seal  that  is  awake. 

Q. — What  are  the  chances  of  losing  an  awakened  seal?  A. 
• — There  are  a  good  many  elmnces. 

Q. — I  sup{)ose  a  sleeping  seal  you  come  up  upon  very  close, 
so  they  can  be  gaffed  before  sinking?  A. — Yes,  sometimes 
and  sometimes  they  get  away  after  being  shot. 

Q. — Even  a  sleeping  seal?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — And  if  the  seals  are  awake,  is  the  distance  longer  from 
which  you  must  shoot?  A. — Yes,  sir,  but  sometimes  you  get 
a  chance  shot  when  they  are  very  close  to  the  boat. 

Q. — That  is  rather  exceptional,  is  it  not?    A. — Very  rare. 

Q. — Now  supposii  there  are  an  abundance  of  seals  In  the 
Sea  at  the  place  wliere  you  are,  in  your  ship  or  schooner, 
does  it  follow  that  merely  because  the  seals  are  there  you 
will  get  them?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Do  you  know  in  tiie  matter  of  sealing  whether  the 
scent  of  .your  approacli  has  anything  to  do  with  awakening 
the  seals?      A. — Oh,  yes. 

Q. — now  far  will  they  scent  the  approach  of  a  man  .n  your 
«'xi)erience?  A. — They  can  scent  a  man  or  a  boat,  further 
than  they  can  see. 

Q. — So  that  in  ai)proaching  does  the  direction  of  the  wind 
have  anything  to  do  with  it?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  how  do  you  aj)proach,  when  you  can  do  it  in  hunt 
ing  for  seals?  A. — Oinerally  aitprotich  from  the  leeward. 
If  they  approach  from  tTie  windward,  8om«'times  they  have 
to  lake  chances. 

Q. — What  is  the  effect,  if  they  note  the  approach  of  man, 
upon  the  seal  herd-      A. — They  will  wake  and  leave. 

Q. — ITow  fast  will  a  seal  make  way  to  escajte?  A — Well, 
it  is  i>retty  hard  to  say.  They  can  travel  very  fast  for  n 
short  distance. 

Q. — And  what  average  rate  will  they  keej)  up?  A. — Well, 
if  they  want  to,  they  can  go  faster  than  a  boat. 

Q. — And  keep  it  up  all  day?      A. — Not  nil  day,  no,  sir. 

Q. — Their  food  supjdv  is  fish,  is  it  not?    A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q. — Do  you  find  fish  in  tlieir  stomachs?      A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q. — And  what  sort  of  lish?       A. — Well,  there  is  salmon 
and  different  kinds  of  small 

Q.—They  catch  them  in  the  Sea?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Now  the  passing  of  other  boats,  and  the  use  of  gtins, 
what  effect  d(»es  that  have  tipon  the  school,  if  yon  find  them? 
A. —  If  there  Is  much  shooting  going  on  It  nuikcs  them  wilder. 


10 


20 


30 


40 


i;i) 


Co 


423 

(Alex.  Mfljean — Direct.) 

Q. — If  aiiothor  ship  Iiuh  paBsed  over,  or  slumtiug  is  ^oiii}; 
on  they  are  awalcened?  A. — Yes.  sir,  if  vessels  are  around 
tiiey  get  wild. 

i}. — If  they  get  wild  can  you  get  them?  A. — Some,  but 
not  as  many  us  if  they  had  not  been  frightened. 

Q. — And  I  think  you  have  already  stated  that  where  tlu'y 
are  already  wakened,  and  shot  at  a  distance,  there  is  dnger  of 
losing  them?  A. — Ves,  sir;  sometimes  they  get  away  from 
new  men  after  being  shot. 

Q. — And  will  they  sink?  A. — Well,  they  get  away,  and 
probably  they  may  die  afterwards. 

{}. — What  eifect  has  rain  upon  the  seals  when  you  find 
where  they  ai-e — heavy  fain?  A. — Well,  hesivy  rain  disturbs 
I  hem;  it  depends  on  the  weather  that  they  liad  before  the 
rain  eame.  If  it  has  been  fine  weather,  it  will  disturb  thetn 
more,  they  will  not  rest  wo  well.  If  it  had  been  blowing  be- 
fore the  rain  they  will  sleep  pretty  well. 

Q. — Does  the  awakening  of  a  few  of  the  seals,  the  disturb- 
ance of  a  few,  tend  to  awaken  the  others?  A. — Well,  that 
depends  on  the  distance  they  are  apart. 

Q. — Although  a  man  may  be  a  good  shot  at  a  mark,  or 
shooting  game  on  land,  does  the  question  of  the  experience  of 
a  man  in  hunting  seals  have  anything  to  do  with  the  number 
he  gets  when  he  finds  seals?    A. — Yes. 

Q. — In  what  way?  A. — In  the  way  he  approaches  a  seal 
beore  he  shoots  him. 

(J. — (live  the  rommissioners  some  idea  of  the  way?  A. — 
All  seals  don't  act  alike,  some  act  different.  A  man  has  got 
to  have  considerable  experience.  It  takes  probably  three  or 
four  months  before  he  understands  how  to  a]iproach  a  seal 
I)roperly. 

Q. — And  what  is  the  proper  way  from  your  experience  to 
approach  a  seal,  and  what  tlie  danger  of  losing  him  when  you 
see  the  seal?  A. — That  depends  on  the  action  of  the  seal  at 
the  time,  all  seals  don't  act  alike.  Some  hunters  they  can 
tell  how  to  approach  the  seal;  they  can  tell  when  they  8«'e 
him  a  certain  distance  off,  whether  they  are  going  to  get  near 
to  him  to  shoot  him;  tell  by  his  actions  whether  he  is  asleep 
<ir  awake. 

Q. — So  that  determines  the  distance  vou  will  go  near  him? 
A.— Yes. 

Q. — And  of  courst^  if  you  shoot  him  at  too  long  a  distance 
yon  run  the  danger  of  losing  him  entirely?  A. — Depends  on 
how  you  shoot  liim.  If  he  is  badly  wounded  you  may  get 
iiini. 

Q. — Now  when  you  are  where  the  stals  are,  what  effect 
(1(K>8  the  weather  have  upon  the  seals,  even  if  your  boats 
will  live  in  the  sea?  A. — Well,  if  it  had  been  fine  weather 
and  the  seals  were  rested  pretty  well,  and  if  theiv  was  bad 
weather  approaching,  the  seals  get  restless. 

Q. — The  coming  stonn  makes  them  restless?  A. — Yes. 
.sir. 

(i. — That  is  a  modification  of  your  chances  to  get  seals? 
.\. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — And  what  is  the  habit  of  the  seal,  when  he  becomes 
wild  before  a  storm,  how  does  he  appear  differently  when  not 
<1islnrb«'d?    A. — Well,  he  moves. 

ii. — Has  the  experience  of  the  captain  of  a  vess«'l  anything 
l<>  do  with  the  size  of  the  catch  for  the  season?  A. — That  is 
very  hard  to  say. 

Q. — The  experience  of  the  captain  in  sealing?  A. — I  do 
not  wish  to  state  that. 

Q. — Is  that  because  of  yonr  modesty?  A. — No,  I  have  been 
Ml  sea  a  good  deal — 

Q. — Hut  I  would  like  to  know;  let  me  see.  Has  the  cap- 
Iain's  judgment.  becauHo  of  his  exj)erience  in  seal  hunting, 


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20 


424 

(A  l(>x.  McLean — I  >irt'et.) 

nn.vtliinp;  <o  do  with  tlio  way  llic  vessel  hIioiiUI  approiu-li  tlie 
Heal  herd?  A. — It  has;  h«'  will  have  the  vessel  projierly 
eqiiiitped,  and  a  n<)od  erew  of  men  aboard. 

Q. — Has  the  selection  of  the  ciew  anything  to  do  with  it? 
A. — It  has  a  great  deal. 

Q. — Has  the  holding  of  the  vessel  to  h'eward  from  where 
it  is  snpposed  the  sealn  are,  before  the  boats  are  sent  out,  to 
avoid  the  scent,  anything  to  do  with  it?  A. — No,  that  hasn't 
so  much  to  do  witli  it. 

Q. — It  has  not?  A. — Xo,  sir,  a  vessel  among  the  seals  can- 
not tell  whether  they  are  to  windward  or  leeward  of  the 
vessel. 

Q. — Can  an  experienced  captain  of  a  vessel  tell  from  seeing 
a  few  seals,  whether  he  is  near  a  great  bmly  of  seals?  A. — 
Of  course  he  can't  tell  as  to  whether  there  are  a  body  of  seals 
there  until  he  has  hunted  there. 

Q. — Are  there  indications  which  go  to  show  that  he  may 
be  on  the  margin  of  a  great  body  of  seals,  when  he  sees  a 
few?    A. — Yes,  sir,  he  can  tell  pretty  near. 

Q. — And  have  his  movements  from  place  to  place  anything 
to  do  with  it?    A. — It  has,  yes,  sir. 

Q. — I  think  you  said  yesterday  that  you  had  marked  the 
jtlaces  where  you  had  found  great  catches  fiom  year  to  year, 
and  had  then  gone  to  the  i)lacc  the  n<'xt  year?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  have  done  that?     A. — Yes,  sir,  I  have. 

Q. — Is  the  finding  of  seals  in  one  i)lace  one  year  any  crit- 
erion that  you  will  llnd  them  there  the  next  year  in  the  same 
,Q   place?    A. — No,  sir. 

^         Q. — Or  within  a  hundred  miles  of  it?    A. — No,  probably  it 
might  be  from  50  to  100  miles  from  it. 

Q. — Hut  you  have  never  found  it  to  be  a  rule  that  they 
would  be  in  the  same  place,  have  you?  A. — No,  sir,  not  in 
the  same  place  every  year.  Ot  course  sometimes  you  may 
catch  them  in  the  same  place. 

Q. — Hut  you  will  find  it  not  to  be  the  rule,  that  is  the 
question?    A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — In  your  experience,  what  has  the  movement     of    the 
.Q   boats  as  to  whether  they  should  keep  ahead  of  the  vessel,  to 
do  with  your  chances  of  getting  a  good  catch?     A. — That  de- 
pends on  the  stare  of  the  weather. 

Q. — What  is  the  dift'er<'nce  between  the  Indian  method  and 
the  method  of  experienctnl  while  men?  A. — The  Indians 
search  around  tlu>  vessel  in  all  directions,  and  the  white  hun- 
ters generally  sail  ahead  of  the  vessel  in  small  boats. 

Q. — And  go  away  from  tlu>  vessel  instead  of  about  her? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  in  your  judgment,  from  your  experien<'e,  is  the 
50  comparative  value  in  sealing  of  canoes,  to  boats?  A. — It 
will  take  more  than  two  canoes  to  compete  with  a  good  white 
hunter. 

(i. — You  mean  with  Indians  in  it?     -v. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — To  compete  with  a  white  hun(er  in  a  boat?  A. — Yes, 
I  have  found  that  to  be  so,  and  have  heard  it  from  other  v»'s- 
sels.     Of  cource  there  are  excejitions. 

Q. — Name  the  <'xcei)tions?  A. — Some  vessels  with  Indian 
hunters  make  very  lai'ge  catches 

Q. — Is  that  because  of  the  skill  of  those  particular  Indians? 
.\. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Those  are  exreplions,  are  they  not?      A. — They  are. 

Q. — Now  (^a)'tain  McLean  you  have  had  to  do  largely  with 
the  fitting  out  (<f  sealers?       .\. — I  have  sonu*. 

Q — With  outlltting  f<»r  sealing  voyages?      A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q.— Please  tell  the  ('«»inmisioners  what,  in  1S80  and  1S87, 
was  the  outfit  for  a  sealing  voyage — generally.       I  am  not 


60 


20 


425 

(A lex.  .Mo Lfan— I  )irect.) 

iiskiii),'  for  HiM'cUic  Uiiiifts  in  detail,  but  goui't-aliy  the  out- 
lit?      A. — For  white  huuters? 

(^—.Yes,  for  white  liuutei's?  A.— Tliat  would  inelude 
lioatH.  guns,  amsnunition,  ami  provisions. 

Q.— Sonu'tinies  a  slop  diest?      A.— YeH,  air,  a  slop  chest. 

Q. — Anything  else?      A. — There  may  be  some  other  things. 

(). — About  how  many  times  have  you  made  up  bills  for 
supplies  you  wanted  for  crews  in  sealing?      A. — I  have  made 
'"  up  supplies  ever  since  I  have  been  in  the  business  for  every 
vessel  I  went  aboard  of. 

Q. — Always  yours^^lf?  A. — Yes,  sir.  Of  course  they  were 
filed  in  by  the  ownevs. 

Q. — But  you  made  up  the  bills  of  what  you  wanted?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  on  a  cruise  we  will  say  of  four  months  to  Behring 
Sea  about  what  supplies  in  the  way  of  provisions  for  men 
in  ISSG  would  be  the  rule,  in  amount?  A.! — It  would  depend 
upon  the  number  of  men. 

Q. — \Yell,  talie  a  crew  we  will  say  of  11  men,  hunters  and 
seamen,  no  Indians?  A. — About  fllfl  a  month,  about  flfl 
1o  a  man. 

Q. — ^Vould  that  be  liberal?  A. — Yes,  sir,  that  would  be 
l>retty  liberal. 

Q. — And  what  in  the  way  of  equipment  for  the  slop  chest? 
A. — Sloj)  chest  for  that  number  of  men,  about  |2o0. 

(J.— What  goes  into  that?      A. — Tobacco  and  clothing. 

Q. — ^Vith  that  allowance  for  a  cruise  to  Behring  Sea  and 
30  Itaek,  and  going  through  the  sealing,  would  you  expect  to  have 
iinylhing  left  on  your  return?      A. — Usually  we  would  carry 
enough  for,  say  about  two  we«*ks. 

(i. — After  the  voyage  was  over?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i. — So  that  the  allowances  you  make  for  this  crew  of  11 
nu'U  would  be  liberal  enotigh,  so  that  if  they  met  with  no  ac- 
cidents or  delays,  thej  would  have  two  weeks'  supply  left  on 
tlieir  arrival  in  port?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — We  will  take  a  crew  of  11  men,  starting  out  in  May 
f(U'  a  sealing  voyage  to  Behring  Sea  and  in  Behring  Sea, 
4"  (isliing  the  season  there.  What  would  you  say  of  their 
taking  in  the  way  of  breadstufTs,  13  barrels  of  flour,  six  bags 
of  flour  in  addition,  100  pounds  of  corn-meal,  100  pounds  of 
oat  meal,  and  45  boxes — 50  pound  boxes — of  pilot  bread,  for 
lircadstuffs  alone,  to  say  nothing  of  meats.  What  would 
you  say  as  to  that  supply  of  breadstuffs?  A. — That  is  larger 
tliaii  I  have  been  accustomed  to  carry  for  tliat  number  of 
men. 

(i. — IIow  about  15  liarrels  of  flour  for  one  item,  on  a  voy- 
cgc  to  Behring  Sea  and  back,  and  six  sacks  in  addition?  A. 
— I  think  that  is  more  than  11  men  could  use  in  four  months, 
or  live  months,  easily.  I  usually  figure  about  a  sack  of  flout 
for  l.'i  men  for  a  week. 

Q. — .\nd  that  is  a  liberal  supply?  A. — Yes,  sir,  I  found 
lliat  to  be  a  lilxial  supply. 

(J. — How  about  45  boxes  of  pilot  bread;  what  would  you  say 
to  that  for  11  men  for  a  sealing  voyage  to  Behring  Sea?  A. 
Well.  I  used  to  average  from  seven  to  eight  boxes  of  bread 
for  a  sea.son. 

(■I. — For  how  long  a  season?  A. — That  would  be  from 
<  ifriif  to  nine  months  for  from  24  to  28  men. 

Q. — Did  you  ever  know  of  any  vessel  being  fitted  out  with 
l)ilot  l)read  for  any  more  tlian  the  propoi'tion  you  stated?  A. 
— Not  for  a  sealing  voyage.  When  trading,  I  have  carried 
more  bread  down  the  coast. 

Q. — But  for  .1  voy:tge  for  your  men,  hunters  and  seamen, 
you  never  knew   of  anybody  carrying  more  than  seven  or 


10 


r.o 


1:1 


'hi 


m 

m 


M 


■  •    P  liii 


fitllJiii 


li  , ;    '  1      ^  [    ■  "  T  - 


426 
(Alt'X.  MeLi'iiii — Direct.) 


Hl«(t 


10 


fight  boxt'8  of  pilot  iirt'ad  bcHidos  ,vour  flour,  did  yon?      A. — 
1  don't  Ivnow  of  anybody  that  did. 

Q. — When  you  Btute  that  you  would  provide  a  saclv  of  flour 
a  week  for  a  man,  how  many  pounds  would  that  be?  A. — 
There  are  four  Hacks  to  a  barrel. 

Q.— .Vnd  for  how  long  a  voyage  would  you  provide  a  sack 
to  a  man  a  week?  A. — Tlmt  would  be  for  the  whole  voy- 
iige.  that  would  be  for  13  men,  about  a  barrel  a  month,  if 
a  vessel  was  out  five  numths  that  would  be  about  2(»  sacks.  1 
never  carried  over  6<>  sacks  of  flour. 

Q. — Not  in  any  of  your  ships,  large  or  small?  A. — Not 
for  the  ships  I  use. 

Q. — Andfor  how  many  men?  A. — Tliat  would  be  about  24 
men. 

Q. — How  about  carrying  in  addition  to  flour  and  pilot 
bread,  oatmeal  and  cornmeal?  A. — ^Ve  usually  <'arry  corn- 
meal  and  oatmeal. 
20  Q- — And  about  how  much  sugar  would  you  think  would  be 
the  equipment  for  a  voyage  of  four  or  five  months  to  Behring 
Sea,  on  a  sealing  voyage?  A. — I  couldn't  exactly  state  tiie 
number  of  pounds. 

Q. — But  take  it  by  the  barrel.  We  are  in  large  figures? 
A. — I  suppose  about  two  lialf  barrels  of  sugar. 

Q. — For  a  voyage  of  how  long?  A. — .\  voyage  of  about 
five  months. 

Q. — For  how  many  men?      A. — Say  about  12  or  13  men. 

Q. — That  is  yon  would  estimate  that  for  about  12  or  13 
30   men?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Would  Tou  Jake  any  syrup  with  the  sugar?  A. — Yes. 
sir. 

Q. — About  how  much  syrup?      A. — About  10  gallons. 

Q. — What  did  yon  pay  a  pound  for  ammunition  in  1886? 
A. — For  powder? 

Q. — I  mean  for  powder?  A. — I  believe  in  1880  it  was  worth 
about  f7  a  keg. 

Q. — How  much  a  pound?      A. — That   would   be  25  pound 
kegs,  worth  then  about  $7  a  keg,  about  thf.t,  probably  a  few 
^     cents  less,  or  over. 

Q. — Whereabouts  was  this?      A. — In  San  Francisco. 

Q. — How  much  would  that  be  wortli  here?  A. — I  couldn't 
exactly  state  how  much  it  was  worth  here.  Powder  is  al- 
ways up  and  down. 

Mr.  Peters: — 1  submit  that  my  learned  friend  has  no  right 
to  go  into  what  an  outfit  would  cost  in  San  Francisco.  He 
is  asking  this  witness  the  cost  of  powder  in  San  Francisco. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  did  not  ask  it,  it  came  out. 

Mr.  Peters: — The  witness  states  it.  You  are  asking  the 
cost  of  things  at  San  Francisco. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — The  witness  stated  it.  it  may  be  stricken 
out.  Then  my  next  question  is,  what  was  the  cost  at  Vic- 
toria, and  I  think  I  will  ask  it. 

Mr.  Peters: — You, have  already  got  into  the  notes  the  cost 
ai:  San  Francisco. 

The  ('ommissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States:— 
He  says  it  Is  stricken  out,  Mr.  Peters.      That  ends  it. 

Mr.  P(.ters:— I  object  to  having  that  stateme^nt  on  the  rec- 
ord, that  i»owder  costs  f7  ut  San  Francisco. 

.^fr.  Dickinscm:— That  may  be  stricken  out.  All  thai  he 
says  about  the  price  of  powder  in  San  Francisco  mav  be 
stricken  out.  inasmucli  as  he  says  he  did  not  know  the  price  at 
A'icioria.  That  is  the  only  Item  as  to  which  I  have  askcl 
any  price. 


S^ 


60 


10 


20 


30 


40 


so 


427 

(Ah'X.  M<-I.<-tiii — IMr«'ft— <'r«)8H.) 

Il.v  Mr.  1  >ic-kiiiH()'ii : 

Q. — Do  yon  know  anytliiug  about  the  price  of  powder  in 
IhcM*  yi':u"8  at  Virtoria?  A. — I  do  not  ivnienil)er  at  priwnt 
wluit  the  priee  wan,  I>ut  I  HuppoHe  tliey  liad  a  higlier  ■':)(<> 
tlian  titat.  I  do  not  know  what  (Ll  duty  was  and  what  the 
freijflit  on  it  was. 

(i.—  lint  tlu'  relative  pi-ices  were  higher?  A. — Yes,  Kir, 
tlu-re  was  tlie  dilferenc^e  of  duty  and  frt>ight. 

Q. — Do  you  know  anytliing  about  the  amo>int  of  salt  in 
tons  tnat  would  be  taken  on  a  cruise  of  this  kind.  The  boat 
goen  up  with  a  crew  of  11  men  and  four  canoes  to  be  manned 
by  two  wliite  hunters  each.  Slie  leaves  in  May  to  seal  on  the 
coast  only  and  in  Hehring  Sea  only,  to  retuni  after  the  Kea- 
Hon.  What  would  be  the  outfit  for  salt?  A. — It  would  aver- 
age from  about  one  ton  to  one  and  a  half  tons  to  a  boat,  say 
ab;)ut  five  tons  ot  salt  for  four  boats.  If  they  have  more 
boats  Ihey  would  carry  more  salt. 

(i. — What  is  the  average  catch  of  the  large  cati^hes  to  each 
lioat?    A. — The  average  about? 

Q. — Yes?  A. — That  is  pretty  hard  to  say,  it  depends  on 
(lie  vessel  and  on  tlie  huntei-s. 

Q. — ^^'llat  do  yon  say  to  ()(M)  jiounds  of  ham  and  (M)0  ])ounds 
of  bacon,  in  addition  to  what  I  have  already  stated  as  part  of 
tlie  outfit  for  11  men  on  such  a  voyage?  A. — That  is  1,200 
])ounds? 

Q. — Yes?  A. — It  is  quite  a  good  deal  more  than  is  neces- 
sary, but  of  course  it  could  be  used. 

v>. — What  do  you  say  to  OOO  pounds  of  ham  and  fiOO  pounds 
of  b,\con  l>eside8  the  corned  beef  and  the  p(H"k  on  board?  A. 
— That  would  be  more  than  I  would  carry,  if  I  was  going  out 
on  tlu  expedition  with  that  number  of  men. 

Q. — Js  it  an  extravagant  ciuantity;  a  very  large  quantity? 
A. — Yes,  sir,  it  is  unduly  large. 

Q. — How  much  would  you  carry?  A. — I  would  carry  about 
4110  {K)unds. 

Q. — And  bacon  also?  A. — No,  sir,  that  is  between  ham 
and  l)acon. 

Q. — Metwi'en  ham  and  bacon  altogether?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i. — For  that  number  of  men?  A. —  i'es,  for  that  number 
of  men.. 

Q. — Would  you  carry  in  addition  to  that  a  complete  outfit 
of  other  meats,  such  as  corned  beef  and  pork?  A. — Yes,  sir, 
canned  corn  l>eef. 

Q. — Is  there  anything  else  that  you  T.onid  carry  for  the 
outfit  if  you  wer»'  going  to  fit  out  a  ship  fcr  Rehring  Sea  in 
18,S(!?  Is  there  anytliing  else  that  you  vtould  carry  in  the 
way  of  outfit,  except  what  you  have  named:  The  slop  chest, 
(lie  medicine  chest,  the  provisions?  A. — And  the  ammuni- 
tion. I  think  that  is  all  that  would  be  necessary  outside  of 
l)oats  and  guns. 

rrossexamination  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q. — Now,  Mr.  McLean,  you  seem  to  be  a  man  of  consider- 
able  experien<'e  in  seal  hunting?    A. — I  had  some,  yes,  sir. 

Q. — According  to  your  own  ideas,  and  we  will  see  what  it 
amounts  to.  You  come  from  Nova  Scotia.  I  believe?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — That  was  a  good  many  years  ago;  liow  many  did  you 
say?      A. — It  would  be  some  ye,-,™  ago,  I  left  there  in  1874. 

Q. — Where  did  you  come  to?  .. . — I  came  to  different 
I  laces  before  I  came  here. 

Q. — Did  you  live  at  San  Francisco  at  first?  A. — Not  at 
fli-st. 

Q- — Where  did  you  go  to  first?  A. — I  have  Iwen  at  differ- 
ent places  iM'fore  I  came  to  San  Francisco. 


ii 


lir 


litjiffii'w'tr 


428 


'<ilM»>:i 


10 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


(AU'X.  McLoaii — Cross.) 

Q. — Wlu'i-c  (lid  .v<tu  iio  (()  tifti'V  .von  h'fl   Xovii  Hcoliii?     A. 
— Th«>  I'liitcd  Stah'H. 

Q. — What  part  of  it?     A. — MaHsacliiisscttH. 

Q.— Wlu'ii?      A.— That  would  be  in  tlio  latt»'r  part  of  1S74. 

Q. — What  did  .vou  do  tlu-rc?     A. — I  was  sailing  in  diffcrciil 

VCBSt'ls. 

Q. — Wliat  part  of  MassaclinsHcUs?  A. — I  was  in  Itoston 
and  (}lon)(>st«'r,  MaMsachnssctts. 

Q. — Yon  were  sailing  ont  of  tluit  liarbor?    A. — Yoh,  sir. 

Q. — In  wliat  trade?    A. —  In  coasiinn  and  flsliinK. 

y. — Whicli  was  it.  coasting  or  tishing?     A. — IJotii. 

(J. — How  long  wore  .von  tlshing?  A. — I  hav»'  bt'»'n  fishing 
for  sonio  time  tlu'rc. 

Q. — "Honu'  tinu'."  is  no  time  to  nic.  I  want  to  know  how 
long?     A. — I'robabl.v  a.  .veai-  or  n»on'. 

Q. — Was  it  a  .year  or  was  it  more?  A. — I  cannot  exactly 
state  to  llie  month,  of  course  I  wonid  go  cm  different  vessels. 

Q. — Were  ,von  fishing  on  .vonr  own  acconnt?    A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Whose  emi>lo.v  were  yon  in  there?  A. — I  was  «'inploy- 
ed  in  ii  vessel  b.v  the  name  of  the  "Electric  Flash." 

Q. — What  kind  of  business?      A. — The  nmckerel  fishing. 

Q.  -AVhere?     A.— Out  of  fJloncester. 

ii. — Where  were  .von  fishing?  A. — On  the  coast  of  tl.e 
Inited  States. 

Q. — Were  .von  many  .veai-s  engaged  there?     A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Was  that  .vonr  «ml.v  exjMMience  of  fishing?  A. — No, 
sir,  I  had  some  other  exjjerience. 

Q. — Where?     A. — I  had  some  «'Xiterience  at  home. 

Q. — Then  you  were  emplo.ved  in  the  mackerel  fishing?  A. 
— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  give  me  the  name  of  vonr  emplo.ver,  I  want 
that?    A. — His  name  was  MacDonald. 

Q.— What  llacDonald?     A.— John  MacDonald. 

Q. — What  is  he?  A. — He  was  master  of  the  ship  and 
owner. 

Q. — Where  did  he  live?     A. — lie  lived  in  Oloucester. 

Q. — Does  he  live  there  now?    A. — I  cannot  state. 

.Q — John  MacDonald  was  owner  of  the  ship  "Electric 
Flash"?    A.— Yes. 

Q.^In  the  .year  1874?  A.— That  would  not  be  1874  or 
1875,  it  was  later  on. 

Q.— When  was  it?    A.— lletween  1878  and  1S70. 

Q. — Where  were  .vou  in  the  meantime?  A. — I  was  goinj; 
to  sea — deep  water. 

Q.— In  what  trade,  between  1874  and  1878  or  187!)?  A.— 
I  was  coasting  on  the  coast  between  Ho^ton  and  IMiiladelphia 
and  lialtimore. 

Q. — On  .voiir  own  account?    A. — No.  sir. 

Q. — In  whose  employ?  A. — I  was  in  dlffenn)  vessels,  but 
I  cannot  state  the  owners. 

Q. — Can  ,vou  give  me  the  names  of  any  of  your  eniido.vers 
during  that  time?      A. — No,  sir,  I  cannot. 

Q. — Not  one?      A. — Not  one  of  them. 

Q.— That  is  strange,  is  it  not?      A— No. 

Q. — You  cannot  give  me  the  name  <»f  one  of  the  employers 
you  were  with  between  1874  and  1878?  A. — I  did  not  kcej) 
books,  and  when  I  was  shi]>i)e<J  on  board  a  vessel,  I  did  not 
enquire  who  were  the  owners  or  who  my  eniplo.vers  were. 

Q. — Can  .yon  give  me  the  name  of  any  of  tlu'  vessels  .you 
wore  in?      A. — I  guess  I  could. 

Q. — Give  me  them  then?  A. — I  could  not  give  the  names 
at  present,  but  1  think  I  would  be  able  to  give  them  to  you 
later  on. 

Q. — Conld  yon  give  me  the  name  of  one  now?  A. — No, 
sir.  not  just  now,  positively.  There  was  one  called  the 
"Eddi«'  I).  Morrison." 


429 


lo 


20 


HCIIHOU 


A.- 


40 


'■,0 


Co 


(Alex.    Mrl.ciiii — ri»HH.) 

ii. — Owiii'd  by  wh(»m?      A, — I  ciiuuut  ututf. 

y. — In  what  tapatil^'  wciv  yoii  011  lior?  A. — I  whh  able 
Hcaiiuiu. 

Q. — Was  thai  your  nipaclt.v  up  to  1879  in  all  tlu'  voHseU? 
A. — Not  ill  all  thf  vi'smi'Ih. 

t^.— Can  yon  nanx-  tin'  captain  of  any  of  tliiw  vohhi-Ih.  A. 
—No,  NJr,  but  1  b»'li«'ve  I  could  hIiow  tlu-  uauu-B  of  the  ditf- 
i  rent  vi'sselH  and  tla-  niasliTs,  I  am  aInioHt  oci-tain  that  I  could 
Kt't  thi'ui. 

ti. — From  1H74  to  |S7<)  you  were  ciuployid  in  certain  ports 
iif  MaHsachusHcKH,  and  in  IS7S  and  l.s7!»  you  went  nnickcrcl 
tlshinK.      That  JH  I'iKh),  is  it?      A.  — Vcs,  "sir. 

ti.— Von  were  niaclverel  fishintj  for  two  years?  A. — No, 
not  (piite  tW(»  years. 

(2.— I'art  of  two  years?      A. — Not  two  years. 

(i. — Were  you  out  one  season  <»r  more?      A. — One 
iMul  more. 

iy — More  tjian  one  wason?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

(l — Then  tliat  is  part  of  two  seasons,  is  it  not? 
I  sni»(iose  it  would  be. 

(). — Were  yon  seining?      \. — Yes,  sir. 

ti. — Xow,  whfii  you  were  out  mackerel  fisliiuK,  sometimes 
(lie  vessel  gets  some  and  sometimes  she  does  not?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q. — .\nd  if  during  your  season's  mackerel  fisliinn.  some 
one  said  to  you  you  must  not  go  mackerel  Ashing,  d<m't  you 
Ihiuk  you  would  run  a  chance  of  making  a  loss?  A. — 1  can- 
not state  that. 

(.i. — You  would  t-ay  thank  y<»u,  I  suj)p<>se?  You  would 
no(  mind  (hat  at  all,  would  you?  .\. — I  do  not  know  what  I 
might  say  at  the  time? 

(2. — Vou  think  it  would  he  no  loss  because  it  is  a  chance 
1ha(  you  might  not  catch  mackerel,  is  that  your  idea?  A. — 
It  is  a  good  deal  of  chance  work. 

ii. — Mackerel  llshing  is  all  chance  work?  A. — A  great 
d<'al. 

(i. — .\nd  there  are  thtnisands,  and  I  might  almost  say  mil- 
lions of  dollars  invcste*!  in  the  mack«>rel  tishing,  is  there 
not?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — .\nd  it  is  all  invested  in  chance  work?  A. — A  great 
(leal   so,   a    good   many    \essels   go   out  and  do  not  make  a 

Ciltcll. 

Q. — Is  cod  fishing  just  about  the  same?  A. — Of  course 
(liey  have  to  take  chances,  some  of  them,  of  course,  make 
money  and  scnne  of  them  d'»  not. 

i-l.—li*  lialilml  tishing  (he  same?      A. — I  snjipose  so. 

(j._.\]l  chance?       .\. — Yes,  very  much  like  seal  fishing. 

Q.— And  just  (o  ai»out  tlie  sanu'  extent  as  seal  fishing?  A. 
— Yes,  sir. 

Q.— They  all  have  chances  and  they  catch  some  on  certaia 
(lays,  do  they  not,  they  have  all  got  some  little  elements  of 
rhance  to  catch  seals  and  fish.  A. — Yes,  sometimes  they 
(atch  tluMM  and  sometimes  they  don't. 

Q.— It  is  just  the  same  with  seals  as  it  is  with  mackerel  Is 
it  not?      A. — .\  good  deal  that  way? 

(}.— .\nd  there  is  no  more  chance  about  seals  than  there  is 
about  nmckerel?  .\. — Taking  the  average  it  is  about  tlie 
Siime,  I  Hui»i»ose,  a  man  cannot  say,  when  he  goes  out  for 
scaling,  or  mackerel  (ishing  that  he  is  going  to  make  a  catch, 
111'  cannot  rely  upon  it. 

Q. — lie  cannot  be  certain?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — .\nd  it  is  the  same  way  with  seal  hunting,  you  say? 
A. — ^'cK,  sir,  I  lu'lieve  so. 

Q.— What  did  yon  do  after  1SS7,  <'aptain?  A.— I  cam'  (o 
San  Francisco  in  18S!»  or  1880. 


,! !!!' 


:t'h 


^iif-^n"n'  " 


ill 


•miU" 


10 


20 


3<3 


SO 


60 


pro- 


430 

(AKx.  McLi'iiii — rn»MH.) 

Q.— hi  18«0,  that  iH  riKht,  is  it?      A— Ych,  Hir. 

<j. — Art*  you  (jure?     A. — 1  bclii'vt'  w). 

Q. — Weil,  I  wuHt  to  liiiow  wlu'tlier  you  are  Hure  or  uot?  A. 
— I  am  pretty  sure  of  it. 

(i- — Tliat  won't  do.  I  want  to  lujow  wlu-tlier  vou  are  sure. 
A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Very  well,  now,  wluit  did  you  do  in  ISHl?  A.— I 
came  to  N'ietorla  liere  in  IHHl, 

(.}. — And  you  w»'re  living  wliere?      A. — In  Victoria. 

Q,— Where  were  you  in  IH82?      A.— I  left  here  in  1ns2. 

Q. — Where  did  you  jjo?      A. — I  went  up  to  Alaska. 

Q. — In  wliose  employ?      A. — I  was  in  a  vessel. 

H. — Hut  in  wliose  employ?      A. — My  own  employ. 

(i. — No  person  owned  her?  A. — I  had  a  partner  witli  Lie 
and  wo  were  interested  in  mining? 

Q. — Wlio  was  lu"?      A. — His  name  is  MH'nllipm. 

Q.— What  M<'('nlli},'nn?      A.— Archie  McCullipan. 

Q. — Where  is  he  now?      A. — lie  is  dead. 

(2. — What  vessel  did  you  m>  up  in?  A. — I  was  a  passenner 
on  n  steamer  from  here. 

Q. — What  steamer?  A. — I  do  not  recoli«ct  the  name  et 
the  steamer. 

Q. — How  far  did  you  m>  on  the  st»'amer?  A. — I  went  to 
Juneau  f'ity. 

Q. — How  long  did  yon  stay  there?      A. — I  was  then; 
bably  about  seven  months. 

Q. — What  did  vou  do  tlien?      A. — I  came  down  here. 

Q.— That  is  still  in  the  year  ISHl?      A.— No,  in  18H3 

Q. — What  did  you  do  then?      A. — I  went  east. 

Q. — Where?      A. — Down  to  Massnchussetts. 

Q. — What  part  of  Massachussetts?      A. — Itoston. 

Q. — Perhaps  you  can  tell  me  what  yon  did  there? 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  did  you  do  there?  A. — I  was  travellinp;,  I  w<ia 
on  a  trip. 

Q. — Simply  on  a  Trip?      A — .Yes. 

Q. — Did  you  go  for  any  business?      A. — No,  I  just  wanted 
40   to  take  a  trip  down  east. 

Q. — At  your  own  expense?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — In  anybody's  employ?      A. — Nobody's  enijiloy. 

Q. — How  long  did  you  stay  there?  A. — I  cannot  reiuem 
ber  exactly  how  long  I  was  east ;  [irobably  about  four  or  live 
moBths. 

Q. — You  do  not  know  how  long?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — What  were  you  doing  wlieii  you  were  there? 
was  travelling  from  one  place  to  another. 

(i. — The  whole  time?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Where  did  you  go  after  you  had  done  that  trij)? 
I  went  down  to  the  Lower  Provinces,  Cape  Hreton. 

Q. — How  long  did  you  stay  in  Cajie  Hi-eton?    A. 
ably  about  a  month,  I  cannot  say  « xactly. 

Q. — Where  did  you  go  then?  A. — I  came  back  west  again 
to  San  Francisco. 

Q. — Now,  we  have  got  you  to  Han  Francisco.  I  want  to 
take  you  ba<'k  to  the  year  1SS2,  and  you  have  told  me  that 
you  came  back  fnmi  Alaska  in  1SH2,  is  that  right?  A. — It 
was,  I  believe,  in  1882. 

Q. — Do  y<m  know  a  sloop  called  the  "Flyaway"?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q. — Were  you  on  board  her  in  that  year?    A. — No,  sir. 

(i. — Were  you  ever  on  hei-?  A. — Yes,  I  have  been  on  board 
her. 

Q. — Did  you  ever  take  a  trip  in  her?    A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Will  you  swear  it?     A. — Y«'s,  sir. 

Q,— With  your  brother?    A.— No.  sir. 


A.- 


A.— I 

A.— 

-Prob- 


10 


20 


30 


40 


■-,0 


6o 


431 
(Alex.    Mt'Lciiii — rroH«.) 

(/.—In   lHH-2'!     A.— No,  hU: 

(). — II  iH  not  coiTCTt  fo  mi,v  t'mt  .v<»h  <H(1?  A. — TIml  Ih  not 
roiTcct,  Hir.  I  hnv«>  Ixm'h  on  honrcl  of  hvr  in  this  harbor  and 
iilHO  on  board  her  in  AlaHl<a,  but  I  did  not  inal<e  a  paHHagt*  in 
licr. 

Q. — You  did  not  go  in  Iut  at  all"'     A. — Xo.  Hir. 

(2. — Have  _vo»  lold  nn*  «'V(>ry  pla«»'  .vou  were  In  during;  tlicw 
vearK  from  1H74.  iih  near  aH  .vou  can  n-nu-nibcr.  I  want  to 
know  wlit'llicr  vou  bad  fr«'»>  quarti'i-H  at  any  time?  .Iu8t 
iiUHWc  r  that  qucHtlon.  A. — I  have  Ikh-u  in  variouH  |)lnct>H  dur- 
iiiK  tiutt  tlrni*. 

il — \V«'rt'  ,voH  in  piihon  at  any  time?  A. — No,  sir,  not  to 
aiy  linowlt'dp'.  but  I  niijiht  liavc  been. 

(i. — Are  ytai  Hurc  you  wvrv  not?  A. — I  luivc  b('«'n  in  prison 
once  in  Halifax,  Nova  Htotia.  I  t;ot  into  a  litth-  trouble 
tlit-n'. 

(i.— When  was  tluit?  A.— That  would  be  about  1870  prob- 
ably. 

(/.— Is  that  tlu'  only  tinu'?  A.— Tliat  is  the  only  time  that 
I  was  in  prison  that  I  know  of  tliere.  I  got  into  n  little 
tpiarn'l  one  evening  and  got  bu-kod  up  about  it. 

(i. — You  ean  answer  tlie  question  better  than  I  ran  put  it. 
Tell  nie,  was  that  the  only  time  you  were  in  prison?  A. — I 
was  imprisoned  once  in  Wan  Franeisco. 

(/.—That  is  twiee?     A.— Yes.  sir. 

(J. — Have  you  any  doubt  about  that?  A. — No,  sir,  no 
doubt. 

(J. — How  louR  were  you  in  piison  there?  A. — Probably 
altout  six  hours. 

Q. — >Vhen  was  that?  A. — That  would  have  been  thre<« 
years  ago- 

Q. — Is  that  the  only  time  you  were  in  pilson?  A. — That  is 
iill  I  know  of,  I  liave  been  in  ])ris(m  twice. 

(i. — A  man  must  certainly  have  a  i-ecollection  as  to  wlu'tli- 
cr  or  not  he  was  imprisoned  and  how  often.  Can  you  tell 
me  f<»r  certain  whether  these  wer«'  the  only  times  you  were 
in  jaison?    A. — That  is  all  I  have  b<'en  in  prison. 

Q. — Then  it  would  not  be  correct  to  say  that  you  were  in 
prison  at  any  time  for  thnn'  months?  A. — Yes,  sir;  it  w«>uld 
not  be  correct. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Ask  him  what  he  was  in  jail  for  in  Hali- 
fax and  it  will  save  me  reexamination. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  shall. 

(To  witness): 

ti. — What  were  you  in  jail  for  in  Halifax?  A. — I  went 
iisliore  from  the  ship  with(»ut  libei"ty  and  not  into  a  row  with 
a  man  and  had  a  quarrel.  The  principal  reason  that  I  was 
put  in  jail  for  was  on  acccnint  of  leaving  tlw*  ship  without  lib- 
erty. 

(/. — \Vlit  was  the  trouble  in  San  Francisco  that  you  got 
into  jail  for?  A. — I  got  into  a  fight  there  and  I  was  detained 
for  about  six  hours. 

(J. — You  say  you  went  to  San  Francisco  in  ISS2?  A.— 
Ves,  sir. 

Q. — And  you  lived  there  until  when?  A. — I  came  back 
lii're  again  in  thf  latter  part  of  IS.S;?. 

*^l- — And  where  did  you  go  to  then,  did  you  live  here?  A. 
—  I  lived  here  from  1SH4  until  lS8i>,  and  being  back  and  for- 
ward between  here  and  San  Francisco  at  times. 

^i- — ^Vhen  you  were  in  San  Fnuuisco,    were    you    in    the 


Miiploy  of  Liebes  &  Company? 
<iintiauallv. 


A.— That  is  since  |8!MI;  not 


m 


:  m 


■y^'d 


'  iii 


J:'' 


(!f^ 


rPTTrrrr-r 


432 


'iji'iiM) 


20 


30 


(A  lex .    Me Loa u — C'iohs.) 

Q. — Wlmt  was  tlto  biiHinoss  of  that  finu?  A. — They  wt'iu 
iu  till'  fur  seal  business,  buviiifj  and  m>lliiiK  fnvH. 

Q. — Were  they  in  the  busiut'ss  of  nitehing  seals?  A. — They 
were  some  years  ago,  yes. 

Q. — Were  they  when  you  were  in  their  enipk»y?  A. — At 
ttrst,  ves  sir. 

Q.— In  wliat  year?     A.— In  lM!t(»  and  IHiH. 

Q. — Whom    did    they    represent?    A. — They    repres«'!ited 
'      themselves. 

Q. — Anybody  else?     A. — I  eannot  say,  I  am  not  sure. 

Q. — Who  were  they  a^t'nts  for?  A. — They  were  their  own 
ajients  at  tlmt  time. 

Q. — Were  they  aj."'nts  for  anv  eompanv?  A. — That  mifjlit 
be. 

Q. — You  do  not  know  anything  about  that?  A. — No,  sir, 
I  did  not  know  all  their  business. 

Q. — How  lonj^  were  you  in  their  emi)loy?  A. — I  was  iu 
their  em]>loy  probably  altout  three  years. 

Q. — Why  did  you  leave  them?  A.--I  worked  for  anotlier 
firm  there. 

Q. — That  is  not  an  answer  to  my  (|uestion.  Why  did  you 
leave  them?  A. — Well,  I  sujtpose  I  left  them  proltably  to 
better  myself. 

Q. — Did  you  go  to  them  and  say  "I  am  iroinji  to  leave  you," 
or  did  they  say  to  yon  "Vou  had  better  leave"'?     A. — No,  sir. 

ti. — You  wt're  not  disuiissel?     A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — It  is  not  eorreet  to  say  that  you  were?  A. — No,  sir, 
and  I  can  prove  it. 

Q. — Now,  then  we  hiive  gitt  you  down  to  1SS4,  and  then  you 
stated  where  you  went  later  on.  Now,  up  to  1SS4  what  weie 
vou  doing  for  these  nu'u.  Y<»u  w»>re  not  working  for  them  .it 
early  as  1884  at  all.     A.— Whieh  men? 

Q. — liiebes  &  Tompany?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q.— You  began  there  in  18!)))?     A.— Y»"s.  sir. 

Q. — What  was  your  actual  enii»loyment  with  them?  A. — 
Master  of  a  vessel. 

(}. — What  kind  of  a  vessel?     A. — A  sealing  vessel. 

Q. — What  was  the  uanu>  of  that  vessel?  A. — The  'Mames 
Hamilton  Lewis.'" 

(■i- — Were  you  in  any  otlier  vess»'l?  A. — I  left  them  afier 
I  was  in  the  "Lewis."'  tliat  is,  I  transferred  to  another  com- 
pany. 

Q- — Now,  I  want  to  come  to  18s:{.  What  were  yon  em 
liloyed  at  in  that  year?  A.— I  was  employed  sealing  and 
walrussing. 

Q. — Was  thar  the  first  year  you  hunted?       A. — Yes,  sii. 

Q. — That  is  the  lirst  year  y(»u  ever  went  sealing?       A. — 
50   The  first  year  I  ever  went  sealing  was  in  188:^. 

Q. — And  then  you  went  luinting  seals  and  walrusses?  ,\. 
— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Chielly  walrusses,  I  believe?  A. — Yes,  sir,  but  we  were 
prepared  for  seal   hunting. 

Q. — That  was  the  lirst  time  that  your  experience  in  st-aling 
begins?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

<i. — And  your  knowledge  thereft)re  cannot  conijtare  with 
that  of  a  man  like  Captain  Warren  who  has  been  at  the  seal 
ing  business  ever  since  it  commenced?       .\. — I  do  not  know, 
Co    I  suppose  you  will  have  to  judge  for  yourself. 

Q. — I  am  judging  for  myself.  You  had  no  experh'nce  up 
to  188;{?      A. — No,  sii\  no  practical  experience. 

Q. — You  did  not  know  where  the  seals  wen'  to  be  caught".' 
A. — I  did  kn<»w  where  the  st-ais  w;'re  lo  be  caught. 

Q. — Uut  (uily  from  heresay?      A. — Yes. 

'l.  -Kul  you  knew  nothing  about  the  tine  tricks  of  the 
trade.       A, — No,  sir. 


40 


13 


433 
(Ahx.   McLean — Oosh.) 

Q. — You  kuow  nothing  about  bow  tbo  seals  were  to  be  ap- 
proached?     A. — No,  sir. 

ti.— Did  you  go  to  tlie  Behiing  Sea  in  1883?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — How  long  were  you  in  the  Sea  that  year?  A. — From 
June  to  August. 

Q. — And  you  were  in  the  ship  "Saii  Diego?"      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — An  American  ship?      A. — Yea,  sir. 

Q. — In  what  part  ot  the  liebring  fsea  did  you  go  to?  A. — 
In  various  parts. 

Q. — How  long  did  you  say  you  were  in?  A. — From  June 
to  August. 

Q. — Looking  for  walrusses  most  of  the  time?  A. — Wal- 
I'ussos  and  seals. 

Q.— >Vhat  were  you  looking  foi  most?  A. — AValrusses  in 
>lu>  early  part  of  the  season  and  seals  in  the  latter  part. 

Q. — When  did  you  begin  to  look  for  seals?  A. — Ou  tba 
2nth  of  July. 
20  Q- — 1  «iw  j"8t  going  to  have  a  little  look  at  that  book  of 
yours  now.  Y'ou  took  that  answer  from  that  book.  This 
book  purports  to  be  what?  A- — That  is  for  my  owu  prtv:.te 
information. 

Q. — When  did  j'ofi  make  it  up?  A. — I  made  it  up  at  differ 
cnt  times. 

(I. — Yon  have  an  entry  hero,  ''Sailing  in  Behring  Sta  in 
1SS;{,  tho  number  of  seals  caught,  the  days  they  were  caught, 
till*  latitude  and  the  longitude."  That  is  right,  is  it?  A. — 
Yes,  sir,  it  is  supposed  to  be. 
30  Q. — I  want  a  straight  answer  to  this  question.  When  did 
you  make/these  entries?  A. — 1  cannot  say  as  to  the  exact 
date,  or  probably  the  year,  but  they  haye  been  n;ude  some 
years  back. 

ti. — Will  you  swear  you  made  them  in  1883?      A. — \o,  sii-. 

Q. — Will  you  swear  you  made  them  in  1884?  A.— ^^i, 
sir. 

Q. — Will  you  swear  you  made  them  in  188.'5?  A. — Pro 
bablv  in  1885. 

g.— Why  did  you  make  tluMU  "probably  in  188.'>?"      A.— 
'1°   Ilecaiise  1  had  that  book  in  f^8r»  and  nvade  entries  in  it,  and 
I  believe  this  is  one  of  the  first  entries  I  put  in. 

Q.— You  prol)ably  made  them  in  1S85?  A.— Pnuii  other 
books,  I  did. 

Q.— Wha^  other  books?  A.— Kooks  that  I  used  to  keep  re 
cords  in. 

(i.— Do  you  mean  lo  say  that  74  is  a  corri'ct  slatenu-nt  in 
liiis  book?       .\. — I  believe  it. 

(i.— Will  you  swear  it  is  correct?      A.— To  the  best  of  my 
CQ   knowledge,  sir. 

(i.— Then  these  entries  were  not  made  at  these  dates?  A. 
— N'o,  sir. 

t^.— You  have  got  not  only  the  number  of  seals  cauglil  each 
(lay  but  the  latitude  and  loiigitiide  where  they  were  caught? 
.V. — Yes,  sir. 

(^.—Whero  did  yoti  get  that  from?  A.—  I  took  the  obser 
vii lions  myself. 

Q.— Where  did  you  put  them     down?       A.— I     put     them 
down  in  a  book. 
60       ^i — What  book?      .\. — There  was  a  log  book. 

Q.— Who  has  got  that  log  book?  .\.— The  log  book  was 
left  in  the  ship,  1  believe,  and  I  t«tok  the  jirivate  book  of  my 


<iwn. 


Q. — When  did  you  leave  the  "San  Diego?' 
(J. — You  were  onlv  on  her  one  year? 


A.- In  18S.3. 
-One  year. 


Q.— The  log  was  left  there?      A.— T-eft  in  the  ship. 
Q. — And  yet  you  have  entiles  made  here  which  could  only 
onie  from  the  log  :ind  which  von  did  not  make  until  1885. 

-•8 


:i;; 


*!!iii 


f  I 


ii      if: 


\\m 


't'i 


i!Ji|U|v!  ,|Mi  \\  !J' 


i!il 


434 


IIM. 


lO 


20 


33 


40 


so 


(k> 


(A  lex.  Mcliean — Cross.) 

Whore  did  you  get  tlie  log?      A. — I  had  a  private  log  of  my 
own  which  I  always  kept  at  sea. 

Q. — Where  is  that  log?  A. — I  destroyed  that  wheu  I  was 
making  that  book  up. 

Q. — Sviien  was  that?  A. — When  I  am  at  sea  I  always 
make  entries  in  a  separate  book,  and  at  the  end  of  the  voy- 
age I  generally  enter  them  in  that  book  there. 

Q. — When  did  you  destroy  the  old  book?  A. — I  cannot 
exactly  state  when  I  did  destroy  it. 

Q. — Tell  me  why  you  destroyed  it?  A. — Because  I  did  not 
want  the  book,  I  did  not  want  to  pack  u]i  t(»o  many  books  and 
that  book  there  would  answer  my  purpose. 

Q. — If  you  had  the  entries  in  the  old  book  was  not  the  old 
book  as  good  as  the  new  one?  A. —  I  did  not  want  to  have 
eight  or  nine  books. 

Q. — Rut  you  had  the  entry  in  the  old  book  and  you  might 
have  left  it  there?      A. — I  did  not  want  to  have  that  book. 
Q. — Why?      A. — I  did  not  want  to  tak«>  it  around. 
Q. — As  a  matter  of  fact  arc  the  entries  in  thi«  l>ook  right? 
A. — There  may  be  some  errors  in  that. 

Q. — How?  A. — That  is  regarding  the  dates  and  probably 
in  adding  up  the  total  amounts. 

Q. — Will  you  swear  that  this  book  is  true  as  to  items?  A. 
— Some  of  the  dates  and  some  of  the  total  catches  might  be 
wi'ong. 

Q. — I  do  not  refer  to  the  total  catches  at  all,  I  ask  you 
about  the  items?       A. — As  near  as  jKissible. 

Q.—  I  am  going  to  come  io  this  now.  Take  Ihe  year  ISs:?, 
and  I  find  here  these  entries  of  seals  caught:  25th  of  July. 
r>(»  seals;  22nd.  (!(►  seals;  2(>th,  S7  seals;  August  2nd,  70  seals; 
.Vugust  lOlh.  <i2  seals.  That  is  the  whole  catch  in  Behring 
Sea?      \. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Do  you  mean  to  tell  me  that  there  were  no  days  on 
which  you  caught  less  than  that?  A. — There  might  be  an 
odd  seal  picked  up  occasionaH,v,  but  that  is  as  near  correct 
as  possible. 

Q. — t'ould  you  show  me  the  log  of  any  sealing  ship  from 
which  it  will  appear  that  on  certain  days  there  were  large 
catches  caught  like  that  and  no  small  catches?  A. — 1  can- 
not say. 

ii. — I  will  take  another  one  for  you.  Take  your  entries 
hi  re  for  1SS4.  You  have  the  same  thing  in  your  book  I  sup 
l»ose.  Here  are  the  catches:  lit,  .'{:{,  oS.  Ttll  C.lt,  ICS.  2(».  4."), 
107.  14n.  i:U,  200,  101.  SC..  S:$,  .^(!,  ns,  not  one  small  cat<'h  in 
the  whole  number.  A. — You  will  find  them  in  rotation  there. 
ii. — When  you  were  putting  down  a  correct  statement  of 
the  ninnber  of  seals  caught  per  day,  did  you  put  down  n 
statement  of  facts  that  is  not  correct?  A. — All  the  seals  I 
caught  is  in  that  book. 

(j. — I>o  you  mean  ttt  say  that  you  caught  this  innuber  of 
seals  on  tli«'se  days?  A. — I  believe  so.  There  might  br  an 
odd  seal  caught  in  the  evening  and  I  would  put  it  down  in 
next  day's  catch. 

(i. — You  wi're  on  the  "Favourite"  in  1S8(!?     .\, — Yes. 
i]. — .\nd   there  is  no  small  <atch  entered   there?     A. — No 
small  catch. 

iy — .\s  a  matter  of  fact,  will  not  the  log  of  tlie  "Favourite" 
show  that  you  did  make  small  catches  tluit  year?  A. — I  do 
not  think  there  is  any  seal  entry  in  the  log  of  the  "Favour- 
ite." 

<i. — .\re  you  sure?  A. — There  may  be,  but  I  have  not 
looked  at  the  log  for  some  years. 

(i. — .\s  a  matter  of  fact,  is  it  possible  that  these  seals  weic 
canglil  in  the  Wiiv  you  put  (hem  down  there?  A.  —II  is  pos- 
sible, 


I! 


10 


20 


30 


435 

(Alox.  M«'Leiiii : — (Jrtms.) 

Q. — Will  jou  swear  it  did  talit-  plaic?     A. — Tliero  may  be 
au  odd  seal  that  i)ii{?lit  be  put  from  one  day's  eatcli  to  an 
otlier. 

Q. — Is  it  substantially  correct?  A. — As  near  as  j)ossible, 
sir. 

Q. — Day  by  day?  A. — Day  by  day  foi-  the  catches.  I  be- 
lieve there  are  some  of  the  catches  that  are  marked  for  the 
(litferent  days  that  do  not  correspond  with  this  book,  there 
was  a  mistake  in  taking;  them  down. 

t^. — Takinjj;  them  down  from  what?  A. — From  another 
hook. 

(.i. — From  what  book  did  you  make  the  mistakes?  A. — 
The  amount  of  seals  cauftht  with  the  ditt'erent  headings. 

Q. — Will  you  swear  that  this  book  substantially  a.t;re<'s 
Willi  the  Ion?  .\. — There  may  be  some  errors  in  the  day,  but 
liie  latitude  and  longitude  agrees  with  the  ]on. 

il. — Does  the  numlter  of  seals  ajjree  with  the  lof^?  A. — 
Yes.  sir,  to  the  best  of  my  knowled};**. 

Q. — For  each  day?  A. — Yes.  There  may  be  an  error.  I 
have  not  c(im]>ared  them  lately. 

(i.— I  want  to  fjo  throufjli  the  whole  business  with  you  and 
see  if  there  will  be  any  mistake.  You  have  what  purports 
to  be  a  statement  of  the  catches  made  in  the  vears  188.*?,  1H.S4, 
ISS.^,  1SH«,  1SS7,  18SS  and  188!)?     A.— Yes,  sir. 

(). — I  put  the  fjeneral  (piestion  to  you:  Is  there  a  small 
day's  catch  shown  in  any  one  of  them?  A. — Probably  not. 
The  reason  for  that  is  when  we  make;  a  small  day's  catch  I 
(lid  not  enter  that.  I  did  not  want  to  mak«'  too  many  differ- 
ent entries  in  my  book.  If  I  i)icked  up  one  or  two  seals,  I 
held  that  over  to  the  next  mornin>j. 

i}. — AYas  not  that  put  in  your  little  book  oi-ininally?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Entered  in  your  little  book  day  by  day?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — AYlien  did  you  draw  the  line  when  you  entered  it  on  to 
the  next  day's  catch?  A. — \Yhen  I  was  puttins;  down  the 
position  in  that  book. 

Q. — Had  you  any  interest  in  the  "San  Diego"?    A. — No, 


40 


sir. 

Q.— None  at  all?    A.— None. 

(i.— ^Yill  you  tell  me  what  reason  you  had  for  keeping  a 
statement  of  what  she  caught?  .\. — II  interested  me  be- 
cause I  intended  to  follow  the  business. 

(i.— Did  the  log  of  the  "San  l)ieg(»"  show  the  catch?  A.— 
I  (inuutl  exactly  say  if  it  did,  but  I  kept  a  record  of  the 
I'i'ilcli,  and  I  also  kept  the  ship's  log.  I  am  not  sure  if  we 
entered  the  position  and  tlu'  <'atches  in  the  log  or  not. 

(i. — Had  yoti  any  object  in  not  entering  in  the  log  the  num- 
hcr  of  seals  that  you  caught?     .\. — Yes. 

(i. — What  was  your  obje<(  ?  A. — ISecause  if  you  have  a 
log  book  and  you  make  |»relty  good  catches  your  hunters  or 
I  lew  may  gel  hold  of  (lie  book  and  take  the  positions  out  of 
il.  and  g<»iiig  on  board  another  ship  tliey  would  give  it  to 
lliciii. 

(i. — Why  did  you  not  want  to  liave  that  (hme?  .\. — Uecause 
it  might  interfere  with  my  business,  I  wanted  to  go  there  my- 
scM'  again,  iiiid   I  did  not   want  to  have  too     many     vessels 
60   iiioiiml  me  in  the  sealing  grounds. 


50 


<2. —  You  took  some  slock  in  the  position  then?     .\. — ^'ei 


sir. 


ii. — You  acliiallv  look  trouble  not  to  let  other  people  know 
t?    A.— Y<-s. 

<i. — Did  you  follow  that  out  after  the  llrsi  year  or  two,  not 
iileiiiig  the  seals  you  cau^'lit  on  any  parliriilar  day  in  your 
lug.     .\. —  I  iiiighl  liave  made  some  entries, 


tl 


f     M 


iili 


I^S' 


m 


I 


436 


id'tf 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


(Alex.  ^MfLvan: — Oi'OKS.) 

ii. — Did  yon  not  carry  ont  that  idea  of  not  making;  tbt'  v\i- 
trh'H  in  your  log  for  that  very  reason?  A. — At  linii's  I  did. 
I  may  liavo  made  sonie  entries  of  seals  in  the  log  book. 

Q. — Now,  here  is  the  loy  of  the  "Favourite"  for  1884.  You 
were  in  lier  that  year?     .\. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  enter  tlie  number  of  seals  taki-n  that  year  in 
the  log?  A. — I  canont  state  exactly,  the  book  will  show,  if 
I  have. 

Q. — Now,  Mr.  McLean,  1  want  you  to  look  at  that  book.  Ii 
is  supposed  to  be  the  catch  of  the  "Favourite,"  is  it  u«»t?  A. 
— Yes,  sir. 

Q.— In  vhe  year  188«?    A.— Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — What  book  are  you  referring  to? 

Mr.  Peters: — I  am  referring  to  the  book  where  it  is  headed 
"1S8(>,  Sealing  cm  the  Coast  of  H.  (\"  It  is  endorsed  on  Ih- 
cover,  "Sealing  account  and  gineral  iufonnation  by  (,'aptaiii 
.Viexander  McLean." 

To  witness: 

Q. — I  want  you  to  ivfer  to  the  date,  July  the  Dth,  Hehring 
Sea,  and  tell  me  what  is  the  entry  there?    A. — .'{5  seals. 

Q. — Kead  the  whole  entry.  A. — Heliring  Sea,  ',\~)  seals,  hit! 
tude  54.50  longitude  1(50.(5. 

Q. — Now,  I  have  here,  in  the  American  book,  a  copy  of 
what  purports  to  be  the  log  of  that  ship  for  that  year,  and  I 
want  to  see  whether  it  agrees  with  yours.  It  says  here, 
Julv  !»th,  position  55.58,  is  that  there?  '  A.— It  is  54!50  here. 
Q.— \Yhat  is  the  longitude?      A.— It  is  10(5. 

Q. — And  here  we  have  it  1(57.25.  How  manv  sealb  there? 
A.— :{5. 

Q. — And  there  are  J8  here.  Now,  I  will  take  the  very  next 
one.  Look  at  the  10th  of  July,  and  what  is  your  entry 
there?      A. — There  is  no  entry  for  the  10th. 

Q. — \Vhat  is  your  next  entry?      A. — The  11th. 

Q — (Jive  your  position  there?  A. — Latitude  55  .48,  longi- 
tude 18(5  .8. 

Q. — The  ))osition  here  is,  latitude  55  .18,  and  longitude 
1(57  .21.  How  do  you  account  for  that  difference?  .\.— 1 
do  not  know.  I  have  not  seen  that  book  and  I  don't  know 
anything  about  that  book. 

(J. — What  is  the  number  of  seals  there?  A.— One  liun 
dred. 

Q. — And  the  numlxM'  of  seals  here  is  11.*?.  Now.  then  yon 
have  no  seals  caught  on  the  lOtli?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — This  book  gives  78  seals?       .\. — I  suppose  so,  sir. 

Q. — How  do  you  ;i((<mnt  for  that?  I  And  this  entry  in 
what  puri»orts  to  be  a  copy  of  the  log  of  the  "Favourite,"  and 
I  (ind  that  on  the  lOtii  of  -luly  in  such  a  positi<m  she  cuufilj: 
7S  seals  and  I  find  that  in  your  book  she  caught  none?  A  — 
Not  on  the  10th. 

Q.— And  I  find  on  the  11th  she  caught  100  seals?  A.- 
She  might  have  caught  one  or  two  on  the  10th  and  it  mig'-'t 
be  added  up  the  day  afterwards. 

(i. — You  would  count  7S  seals  "one"  or  "two?"  .\  — No. 
sir. 

Mr.  Dickinson:— \N'hat  ai-e  you  reading  from,  Mr.  Peters? 

.Mr.  Peters: — I  am  reading  from  a  report,  an  American  re 
port,  which  says  that  it  is  the  rei»ort  of  Officials  and  agents 
in  reference  to  the  fur  sealing  catch  in  Hehring  Sea,  and  ii 
purports  to  be  the  log  of  this  same  vessel. 

.Mr.  I»i<kins')n: — Have  you  not  got  the  log  of  the  vessel 
there?      I  think  you  have  the  original  log. 


_'0 


437 

(A  lex.  McTiCSin : — Cross.) 

Mr.  Peters: — I  do  not  know  that  I  liave. 

Ml-.  Dickinson: — Ves,  I  tliink  you  liave.  You  sa.y  it  pui*- 
|i(irts  to  be  tlie  log  of  tliis  vess**!  and  I  want  to  know  wliat  it 
is.      You  have  the  original  log  there,  I  believe. 

Mr.  Peters: — Yes,  I  believe  I  have  it,  I  did  not  know  at 
(he  time. 

lo  The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — \Mi.v 
(lid  jou  not  quote  from  the  original  log,  Mr.  Peters,  if  you 
liave  it  under  your  hand. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  will  quote  from  it. 

To  the  witness: 

Q. — We  will  see  how  the  log  works  out.  On  July  the 
'tth.  18SG  your  positiou  in  that  little  book  you  have,  is  lati- 
tude 54?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

U. — I  have  now  what  is  supposed  to  be  the  original  Jog, 
kcpi  on  that  ship  in  1886.  Will  you  say  if  your  fiositiou  in 
tlic  original  log  agrees  with  the  position  in  that  book?  A.— 
The  position  agrees  very  elosely  with  th.at. 

Q. — With  what?  A. — There  may  be  a  difference  bu'  it  is 
not  much. 

Q. — I  hand  you  the  original  log  of  the  "Favourite"'  for  the 
year  188(>,  and  I  ask  you  the  question,  if  on  the  flth  of  .fuly, 
the  position  in  your  book  is  different  from  the  position  as 
Htated  in  the  log?      A. — Not  quite  the  same.  sir. 

Q. — Why  was  it  not  quite  the  same,  what  object  had  you 
ill  putting  it  not  quite  right?  A. — The  original  log  book  is 
kept  for  noon,  and  this  little  book  is  kept  as  closely  as  possible 
to  wliere  the  seals  were  caught  in,  it  might  make  a  difference 
of  Home  miles  during  the  day. 

Q. — What  was  your  position  on  the  8th,  on  the  t)th.  and  on 
tlie  KHh,  as  marked  in  the  log?  A.— On  the  10th  it  is  55  .58: 
on  tlie  !>th  it  is  35  .45;  on  the  8th  it  is  55  .30. 

Q.— r>id  you  ever  get  into  latitude  54  at  all  during  that 
time?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i.— On  thtW  days?      A. — In  August. 

Q.— No.  But  on  these  three  days  I  have  named?  A. — 
Not  that  I  know  of,  if  I  did,  it  would  be  in  the  log  book. 

(J.— Your  log  shows  that  you  were  not  in  54  on  any  of 
til'  se  tliire  days,  and  that  being  the  cas*',  explain  to  me  why 
ym  put  54  in  your  little  book?  A.— Well,  that  might  be  an 
•■nor  in  taking  that  down,  of  course. 

(i.— Will  you  swear  it  was  an  error?  A.— Yes,  sir,  I  will 
swear  it  was  an  error,  and  that  is  was  not  done  intention- 
ally  either. 

0.— Is  there  any  statement  in  the  log  as  to  how  many  seals 
vou  caught  on  the  5)th  or  Kttli,  or  the  llth?  A.— No.  sir.  be- 
ciuise  I  did  not  enter  my  (Pitches  In  this  log  book. 

Q.— Now,  then,  following  on  that  same  line  with  your  log 
liook,  look  at  the  next  dav,  the  llth.  as  shown  there?      A.— 

YCH. 

Q.— What  is  vour  position  according  to  your  little  book  on 
tlie  nth?       A.— 55  .48. 

(J.— What  is  tlie  position  in  the  log?      A.— 55  .37. 

Q— What  is  the  longitude  there  in  your  little  book?  A. 
ir,7  .8 

Q.— What  is  the  log?      A.— 107  .7. 

Q.— When  di<l  you  make  up  your  mind  to  make  that  altera- 
tion? A.— I  made  the  alteration  as  near  as  possible  as  to  the 
Ui'onnd  T  took  the  seals  on. 

Q— When  did  you  put  down  that  position  in  your  little 
iMMik?      .\.— 1(  was  put  down  a  little  later  on. 


40 


50 


60 


438 


:.tii         : 


\\  lex.  MrliOan : — Cross.) 

Q. — Whiil  is  till'  next  «'iitrv  von  liavi*  in  yonr  little  book? 
A.— The  12th. 

Q. — What  was  yonr  position?      A. — S.T  .^7. 

Q.— And  yonr  longitnilo?      A.— I(i8  .8. 

Q. — That  docs  not  afjrce  Iutc  cithor?  A. — Probably  not. 
That  tiici'c,  is  tin*  position  for  noon. 

Q. — now  nian.v  seals  did  yon  eatch  that  day?      A. — ll.*^. 

lO  Mr.  Dickinson: — I  must  object  to  yonr  putting;  qnestions  to 
the  witness  from  this  book,  which  is  sini']»ly  a  reimrt  of  the 
ajjents,  and  which  is  not  at  all  any  authentic  document. 

Mr.reters: — I  won't  ask  that  question  of  the  witness  then. 
I  will  leave  that  question  for  a  moment,  and  I  will  ask  the 
witness  this. 

To  Witness: 

Q. — Did  any  other  person  have  a  statement  as  to  the  num- 
2o  ber  of  seals  you  jjot  and  the  days  you  caught  them,  except 
yourself?  A. — Not  except  myself,  sir.  At  the  end  of  the 
vovajje,  of  course,  I  minlit  fjtivc  an  account  of  the  total. 

Q.— Of  the  total?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Hut  did  any  other  person  have  a  statement  of  the  num- 
ber of  seals  that  were  caught  on  each  i)articnlar  day  on  the 
•'Favourite"  except  you?      A. — Not  to  my  knowledge. 

(i. — And  if  the  nunjber  of  seals  that  w«'re  caught  day  by 
day  in  your  vessel  have  got  into  the  hands  of  eitlier  govern- 
ment it  must  have  come  from  you?  A. — Yes.  I  cannot  say 
3°   exactly,  it  may  have  come  and  it  may  not. 

(i. — Did  you  or  did  y(ni  not  give  information  on  that  point, 
and  when?     A. — I  cannot  say. 

Q. — Did  you  give  it?    A.. — I  cannot  say. 

ii. — Did  you  give  it  some  years  ago?  A. — I  might  have 
done  so.  It  is  a  long  time  ago,  and  I  can  not  recollect  if  I  have. 

(i. — Do  you  swear  you  don't  recollect?  A. — Yes,  sir,  I 
don't  recollect. 

Q. — Wert'  yon  asked  for  the  information?  A. — I  cannot 
say  if  I  have  been.  I  don't  remember  being  asked  nor  giv- 
40    ing  the  informatictn. 

il. — If  any  j>erson  gets  the  information  that  on  the  llth 
of  July  in  tluit  year — 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — One 
moment,  Mr.  Peters.  That  is  "not  (piito  the  same  line  of  ex- 
amination that  was  concbictcd  on  the  other  side.  It  seems 
to  me  the  (»ther  side  |)ut  these  similar  tpiestions  in  a  ditferent 
way.  The  witnesses  were  asked  by  counsel  on  the  otlu'r  side 
in  a  general  way,  if  they  gave  siwh  information  and  so  forth. 

5°  Mr.  Peters: — I  am  not  referring  to  any  information  about 
this  transa<tion  at  all.  I  have  a  statement  here  in  this  book 
which  must  have  come  from  somewhere,  and  I  want  to  find 
out  where  the  statement  is  supposed  to  have  come  from.  1 
do  not  want  to  go  into  particulars  of  the  case  at  all. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  FnittHl  States: — I 
merely  suggest  that  you  ar(>  putting  that  question  in  a  con- 
tingent foiin. 

60  Mr.  Peters: — I  merely  ask  the  witness,  yon  ITononr,  the 
question  as  to  whether  he  gi.ve  such  and  such  infornnition 
to  such  and  such  an  olTi(!'r.  I  will  put  the  question  in  the 
form  whi<  h  your  Honour  suggests. 

To  the  witness: 

Q. — Did  yon  as  a  matter  of  fact  give  a  statement  to  any 
person  as  to  the  number  of  seals  that   you  canght     in     the 


10 


20 


30 


40 


(>o 


459 

(Alex.  McLean: — Cnms.) 

"Favcmrilf"'  in  the  .veiir  1HH(}  and  the  <la.VH  yon  cannlit  thein 
(»n?  A. — I  niij;lit  have  jjiven  tlie  total  anionnt  hut  I  do  not 
think  I  have  niven  tlie  ]K>Mition  of  the  Bhip.  I  may  have,  but 
I  am  not  Hure. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  wlu'U  it  was,  you  nave  wliatever  in- 
formation you  did  jtive?      A. — No,  sir,  I  do  not. 

The  ComniisBionei-  (m  the  part  of  the  United  States: — I  did 
not  mean  to  say,  Mr.  PeterH,  that  yon  ponld  not  ask  the  wit- 
ness as  to  whetiier  he  fjave  specifie  information  as  to  particu- 
lar days. 

Mr.  Peters: — May  it  please  your  Honour,  what  I  wisli  to 
};et  at  is  this,  I  have  a  certain  statement  here  and  it  is  simply 
with  a  view  of  seeinjj  whether  this  statement  is  a  correct  one 
or  not.  that  I  ask  those  (piestions.  If  it  is  a  correct  state- 
ment I  want  to  know  how  it  differs  from  this  book. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Fol- 
lowing the  jtroof  used  In-re,  you  are  entitled  to  ask  him 
whether  he  stated  that  to  any  person,  and  you  can  draw  your 
deducti<m  from  it.  You  can  ask  him  whether  he  caujiht 
such  a  number  of  seals  on  a  certain  day.  but  you  are  not 
entitled  to  ijo  into  details.  That  is  according  to  the  lines  of 
evidence  taken  before  the  Commissioners. 

By  Mr.  Peters: — 

Q. — Do  you  know  a  Mr.  Townscnd?  A. — I  do  not  know. 
1  don't  remember  of  seeing  him,  I  might  have,  but  I  do  not 
remember. 

Q. — You  do  not  remember  of  any  person  coming  up  here  as 
far  back  as  a  year  or  two  ago,  and  asking  you  to  give  informa- 
tion, and  you  giving  a  statement  as  to  what  purported  to  be 
the  log  of  your  ship  in  1H8(>?  A. — What  year  was  that  that 
you  say  he  got  this  information? 

Q.  -It  would  be  1804  or  18!)5.     A.— Where-about  was  that? 

ti. — I  presume  here  or  in  San  Francisco?  A. — I  cannot 
exactly  saj. 

<i. — Now,  .'.h-.  McLean,  purely  you  can  remember?  A. — I 
met  dill'erent  men  thi't  wanted  to  get  a  statement  and  infor- 
mation regarding  ser.Hng,  but  I  do  not  know  if  ir  was  .Mr. 
Townsend  or  not.  Show  me  the  statement  I  made,  and  I  may 
be  able  to  remember  it. 

(i. — Did  you  or  did  you  not  make  a  statement,  giving  the 
details?  A. — 1  cannot  exactly  say.  I  made  a  statement  in 
San  Francisco,  but  to  whom  I  am  not  certain.  That  must 
be  three  or  four  years  ago. 

(i. — Did  you  in  18})5?  A. — I  do  not  recollect  making  anv 
statement  in  1805? 

(i- — Did  you  make  one  statement,  or  more  than  one  to  any 
oflicial  person?    A. — I  know  of  making  one  statement. 

(■l. — Did  you  make  more  than  one?  A. — 1  cannot  say  ex 
actly  if  I  have  or  not. 

y. — In  giving  the  statement,  whatever  it  was,  what  did 
yon  get  your  information  'rom?  A. — From  my  own  exper 
ience. 

Q. — But  when  yon  came  to  details,  from  what  book  did 
you  get  it.  A. — I  must  have  given  it  from  my  own  book  if  1 
fjave  any. 

Q.— Did  you  give  it  from  that  book?  A.— I  must  have,  if 
I  have  given  it.  I  do  not  think  I  have  given  it  from  this 
book. 

Q.— From  what  book  did  you  give  it  then?  A. — I  do  not 
lliink  I  got  it  from  any  of  thesi!  books,  that  is,  I  don't  think 
1  produced  the  books. 

Q.--I  supiiose  you  did  not  give  the  details  from  memory? 
•\— Very  lik«'ly,  but  I  am  not  <'(>rtain. 


i ,  ^ 

.!■(!! 

if 

^' 

i^ 

,1 

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•:sUi. 


\i\- 


\um 


M 


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' 

IHMi 


lO 


20 


440 

(AU'x.  McLean: — Cross.) 

Q. — l>o  you  iiH'iiu  to  8113'  it  1b  iioHHiblo  for  you  to  linve  given 
tile  position  of  your  vessel  from  memory?  A. — I  do  not  tliiulc 

HO. 

Q. — Or  the  number  of  seals  caught  in  any  one  day?  A. — 
No,  sir.  1  eould  not  liave  given  tlie  |iosition  of  the  ship  or 
the  number  of  steals  from  memory. 

(J. — In  fact  you  could  not  have  given  anything  from  mem- 
ory?   A. — Except  the  numbers  of  the  total  catch. 

Q. — And  except  the  numbers  of  tlie  total  catch  you  could 
not  have  given  anything  from  memory?     A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — You  have  in  tliat  booli  an  entry  with  regard  to  the 
jhip  "San  Diego"  that  you  were  in  in  1883?    A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Do  you  know  any  of  the  men  that  were  on  the  "San 
Diego?"    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Can  you  remember  any  of  them?  A. — Yes,  sir,  I  re- 
member some  of  them. 

Q. — Will  you  Just  tell  me  some  of  them?  A. — There  was 
one  of  the  name  of  Bill  Thomas. 

Q. — Is  that  the  only  entry  you  have ?  •  A. — Showing 

what  I  caught  in  that  year. 

Q.— In  1883?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — That  is  tlic  only  entry  you  have  in  existence?  A. — 
That  is  the  only  entry  I  have  in  existence. 

Q. — And  where  were  the  seals  in  the  "San  Diego"  deliver- 
ed to,  when  she  came  from  her  voyage?  A. — They  were 
delivered  to  T.  Lubbe. 

Q.— You  delivered  them?      A. — No,  sir,  the  master  of  the 
30  ship  did. 

Q — Did  she  just  deliver  her  own  seals?  A. — Her  own 
seals,  I  believe. 

Q— -And  no  more?      A. — Not  that  I  know  of. 

ti. — Then  Mr.  Lubbe,  he  would  know  what  number  of  seals 
you  delivered  would  lie  not?      A. — Yes,  sir,  he  ought. 

Q. — And  he  would  have  it  in  his  boks?  A. — Yes,  sir,  by 
producing  his  books  he  ought  to  know  the  exact  number  of 
seals   ve  gave  to  him. 

Q. —  You  have  not  looked  at  the  books?      A. — No,  sir,  I 
40   have  seen  his  books,  but  I  never  went  through  them. 

Q. — Now,  give  me  that  little  book  again.  We  will  have 
this  little  book  for  a  moment.  Will  you  be  kind  enough  to 
state  again  the  position  you  were  in  on  the  12th  of  July,  1880? 
A. — This  should  be  the  position;  about  55  .37,  that  is  where 
the  seals  were  caught  and  taken  in. 

Q.--And  longitude  107  .8?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

(}. — Now,  look  at  that  and  see  in  the  year  1885  on  that 
same  dav,  what  was  your  position?  A. — My  position  was 
latitude  55  .4(5  longitude  108  .30. 

Q. — How  far  apart  are  these  two  positions  about?  A. — 
This  is  on  the  12th  of  July? 

Q. — Yes.  A. — There  would  be  nine  miles  difference  of  lati- 
tude and  probably  about  22  miles  difference  of  longitude. 

Q. — AVhat  would  be  the  actual  difference  as  the  crow  flies? 
.\. — About  20  miles. 

Q.— Take  the  15th  of  July,  18(iG,  and  siiy  what  was  your 
position?  A.— Latitude  .55  .25,  longitude  107  .57. 
^Q  Q. — I  see  you  cannot  get  the  same  day  exactly  in  1885,  but 
taking  between  the  12th  and  the  18th  of  July,  1885,  how  fur 
away  were  you  from  the  same  position?  A. — The  distance 
will  be  close  onto  GO  miles. 

Q.— That  will  be  the  furthest?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Compare  any  day  in  August  that  you  like,  take  the  first 
of  August,  we  will  say,  how  does  your  position  in  1885  com- 
pare with  3'our  position  in  1880  on  the  1st  of  August.  A  — 
It  would  be  about  22  miles  difference. 


50 


10 


20 


30 


40 


^0 


()  I 


44 1 

(Alex.  McLean: — Cio88.) 

ii. — Can  yon  accunut  foi*  the  fact,  Captain  McLean,  why  it 
was  (liat  yon  seem  to  lyive  got  pretty  near  the  same  spot  in 
(he  same  year?      A. — Do  yon  asl{  me  why? 

Q. — Yes?  A. — Becanse  I  nsed  to  want  v'kRO  over  the  same 
;ji'oun(L 

Q. — And  yon  were  catchinf;  seals  there?  A. — Yes,  I 
caufi^ht  tliem  before  and  if  I  did  not  get  seals  there,  I  would 
go  further  along. 

Q. — But  you  did  find  them  before?      A. — Oh,  yes. 

Q. — And  you  found  them  in  the  same  quantities,  did  yon  not: 
perhai)8  better  in  188G  than  in  1885?  A.— Yes,  sir,  in  188f. 
I  found  more  seals  on  that  day. 

Q.— And  all  through  the  year  didn't  you  find  it  better? 
A. — Yes,  sir,  of  course,  in  1886  I  made  a  pretty  good  catch 
in  July. 

Q. — And  yon  got  some  seals  in  August,  too?  A. — Yes.  I 
got  some  in  August. 

Q.— Taking  all  the  entries  of  the  position  of  your  ship  in  the 
year  1885  is  it  not  correct  that  you  were  sealing  in  1886  pretty 
much  near  the  same  ground  as  in  1885?  A. — Well,  in  1885. 
I  made  a  pretty  fair  catch,  and  I  thought  I  would  go  over  the 
>*ame  ground  again  and  seal  where  I  did  well  in  1885. 

Q. — Then  you  did  place  a  value  on  the  position  of  the  ship? 
A. — That  is  the  reason  I  kept  that  in  this  book. 

Q. — And  vou  followed  that  out  successfully  for  two  years, 
did  you  not?      A.— In  1885  and  in  1886. 

Q. — Did  you  go  on  the  same  ground  in  1887?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Why?      A. — Because  I  expected  to  find  seals  there. 

Q.— Did  you  lind  them?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — And  you  hunted  in  tlie  same  grounds  in  1887?  A. — 
Not  in  the  same  position. 

Q.— But  practically  did  vou  hunt  over  the  same  ground  in 
1,S87  as  you  did  in  1885  and  1886?  A.— Not  altogether,  I 
believe  in  1887  1  went  a  little  to  the  westward,  and  probably 
1o  tlie  eastward,  I  never  confined  myself  to  any  certain  place. 

Q. — Just  let  me  see  how  corre<'t  that  is.  The  last  day's 
sealing  you  made  in  1887,  vou  caught  146  seals,  according  to 
this  little  book?    A.— Yes". 

Q. — And  your  position  was  latitude  54..40  longitude  169, 
and  in  1886  on  the  very  siime  day  how  far  were  you  from  that 
same  place?      A. — Probably  about  a  hundred  miles. 

Q. — On  that  particular  day?  A. — Yes,  sir,  farther  to  the 
westward. 

Q. — Now,  there  is  another  peculiarity  about  this  little 
book,  and  I  want  to  point  it  out  to  you.  You  are  swearing 
to  Ihis  book?    A. — Yes,  sir,  as  near  as  possible  it  is  right. 

Q.— What  is  the  last  day  you  fished  in  Behring  Sea  in  1886 
A. — I  believe  that  book  will  show  it. 

Q. — Well,  what  do  you  say  now?  A. — I  think  it  was  the 
lilth  of  August. 

Q.— And  in  1887?     A.— The  2;?rd. 

Q. — And  in  1888?  A. — I  cannot  exactly  say  without  refer- 
ring to  the  book. 

tj. — And  in  1888,  d(m't  mind  your  book,  I  want  your  mem- 
ory now?  A. — Well,  it  would  be  within  a  few  davs  of  the 
:i(lth. 

Q. — Would  you  be  surprised  to  learn  that  your  book  states 
(hat  you  made  the  last  catch  on  every  one  of  these  years  on 
Ihe  litth  of  August?    A. — I  believe  <m  three  of  them. 

Q. — That  is  only  a  coincidence,  is  it?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

().— In  1886  on  the  10th  of  August,  in  1887  on  (lie  19th  of 
August,  and  in  1888  on  the  19th  of  August?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Will  you  swear  that  is  corr»-ct,  too?  A. — Yes.  sir. 
'I'lial  is  as  near  correct  as  I  can  place  it. 


■'IS 


ill  I 


'  '  !'■ 


:i<.n 


M'.iMM  M' 


442 

(Ah'X.   McIa'iiii: — CrtmH.) 

(i. — Would  Hint  lie  mIiowii  I»,v  voiir  Ion?  A. —  I  will  be 
hIiowii  h,v  iu,v  UtK  wluii  I  left  tli«'  m'li.  It  wiis  Hliortly  iirtcr 
tluit  diito.  Tlic  lots  wil  not  hIiow  the  poHitioiiH  in  Itt'liriu); 
Ht'ii. 

(i. — Vou  wtTi'  on  the  '•.Mary  Kllcn"  in  IHHS  and  this  \h  ycMir 
log  hook,  I  h«'li»'v«'  for  that  y»'ar?     A. — Yes.  sir. 

(J. — Stran>r<'  to  sa.v  it  docs  not  aivi'  your  position?     A. — 
10   No,  sir,  not  in  the  Itchrinf;  Sea. 

ii. — It  >{lvt'S  no  infonnation  at  all  as  to  wlicrc  yon  were? 
A. — No,  it  just  >{iv»'s  infoiination  rcgardinj;  the  wcatlfcr  in 
I((>linnf;  Sea. 

(2. — Then  it  is  correct  for  nu>  to  say  that  all  tli«'  time  yon 
w<'i'(>  in  Itt'liring  Sea  your  log  hook  docs  not  state  the  ]iosi- 
tion  in  the  log  book?      A. — \ot  in  my  lojr. 

Q. — Xot  in  your  log?     A. — Not  in  my  log. 

Q. — I  can  understand  why  you  did  not  ])Ut  the  number  of 
seals  in  your  l«)g  book,  but   F  want  you  to  explain  why  you 
20   did  not  put  the  position  of  your  ship  in  the  log  book?     A. — 
For  various  r«>aHons. 

Q. — What  were  they?  A. — In  the  first  jdace  I  did  not 
want  my  crew  to  get  a  hold  of  my  IxHtks  and  take  my  posi- 
tion out  of  the  lN)oks. 

Q. — You  did  not  want  your  crew  to  know?     A. — \o,  sir. 

(J. — ('(Mild  not  you  keeji  your  log  book  awn.v  from  the  crew 
as  well  as  anything  else?  A. — [  kept  scuue  things  locked  up 
but  it  is  not  nsual  to  keep  the  log  i»ook  locked  up  on  board 
ship. 
30  Q. — Now,  take  the  year  ISSH.  there  is  your  log  book,  and 
show  me  what  day  you  left  Rehring  Sea  in  that  year? 

The  witness  had  not  answered  the  (piestion  when  the  f'om- 
missioners  rose. 

The  Commissioners  then  rose. 


40 


i?lii*i«M 


OommiBsioners  under  the  Convention    of  February  8,  1896,  Between 
Great  Britain  and  the  United  States  of  America 

Chambers  of  the  Legislative  Assembly, 

At  Victoria,  December  14,  1896. 


50        At  lOs'JO  the  rommissioners  took  their  seats. 


rross-examination  of  Alexander  Mcl^ean  continued  bv  .Mr. 
Peters. 

Q. — <'aj)tain  McLean,  you  produce  several  books  here  and  I 
just  wi.sh  to  ask  you  ab(Mit  them.  Ih-re  is  the  log  of  the 
"Favourite"  foi-  the  years  isy4  and  ISD.'j,  is  it  not?  A.— 
Yes.  sir. 

Q. — They  were  produc«'d  here  by  you,  were  tlu-y?  A. — 
Qq  They  were  got  from  me. 

Q. — As  a  matter  of  fact  who  kept  that  log?  A.— 1  kejtt 
that  log. 

Q. — Yourself?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Is  that  in  your  writing?       A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — That  log  was  kept  by  you  and  has  been  in  your  ens- 
todv?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Up  till  lately?      A.— Up  till  lately. 

Q. — And  since  it  was  kept  by  you?      A. — Yes.  sir. 


10 


20 


443 
;A  lex.  McliCiin : — Cntsw.) 

Q.— Take  tliL-  log  of  (ho  HtliooiHT  "Favourlto"  for  1880,  wliO 
lu'pt  (hat  lofc'?      A.— I  kept  that  log. 

Q. — 18  that  in  your  writing?      A. — Yes,  hIi'. 

Q. — lias  that  been  iu  your  cuutody  till  lately?  A. — Yeu, 
Hir. 

(i.— Take  the  log  of  the  "Mary  Ellen"  for  18H7,  who  kept 
that  log?      A. — 1  kept  that  log,,  sir. 

Q. — Is  it  in  your  writing?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — The  whole  of  it?  Just  look  and  see,  I  want  you  to  l>e 
sure.  A. — I  was  muster  of  the  "Mary  Ellen"  at  the  time 
and  then  I  kept  this  log. 

Q. — And  that  is  you  log?      A, — Yes,  sir. 

ti.— Take  the  log  of  the  "Mary  Ellen"  for  1888,  who  kept 
that  log.      A.— I  kept  the  log  for  1888,  sir. 

{}. — That  is  your  writing  also?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Has  that  log  been  iu  your  custody  until  lately?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Take  the  log  or"  the  "Mary  Ellen  for  188!>?  A.— Part 
of  her  log  was  kept  by  the  mate  and  the  latter  part  was  kept 
by  me. 

Q. — I'p  to  what  page  was  it  kept  bv  the  mate?  A. — May 
Ith,  1881). 

Q. — On  what  page  of  the  book  is  that?      A. — Page  <>2. 

Q.— From  May  4th  it  was  kept  by  you?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q— ^Vas  that  a  Behring  Sea  year?  A.— Yes,  sir,  a  Behr- 
ing  Sea  year. 

Q. — So  that  the  part  connected  with  the  trip  to  Behring 
30  Sea  was  kept  by  you?      A. — Y'es,  sir. 

Q- — Now  are  thoH«>  the  only  logs  that  you  kept  for  these 
years  of  these  vessels?  A. — Yes,  sir,  for  these  vessels,  they 
were  the  ship's  logs. 

Q. — Did  any  othei-  person  keep  any  other  logs  of  these 
vessels  during  these  years?      A. — Not  that  I  am  aware  of. 

(i. — And  these  logs  have  been  in  your  nossession  from  the 
time  they  were  kept  up  to  about  how  lt»ng  ago?  A. — Till 
very  lately. 

Q. — Witliin  three  weeks?      A. — Y'es,  sir. 

Q. — No  other  person  had  them  in  their  possession?  \. — 
Not  during  that  tiUK; — not  to  my  knowledge.  They  niifilit 
liave  seen  my  books,  a  person  might  have  occasion  to  see 
them,  but  not  that  I  know  of. 

Q. — Now,  Mr.  McLean,  if  1  can  find  a  publication  which 
•  onlains  the  exact  information  that  is  in  one  of  these  logs, 
can  you  imagine  any  other  source  it  coiild  come  except  from 
lliat  log?  A. — I  cannot  say,  it  is  pretty  hard  to  say  what 
source  it  conld  come  from. 

i}. — Can  you  imagine  any  other  source  where  the  informa- 
tion could  come  from — for  instance,  information  giving  the 
position  and  the  dates  from  day  to  day  of  one  of  these  ves- 
sels, just  as  it  is  in  one  of  these  logs.  Where  could  that 
information  have  been  obtained  except  from  the  log?  A. — Is 
i<  exactly  the  same  as  it  is  in  these  logs? 

Q. — Yes,  sir.  A. — They  might  have  got  a  copy  of  my  log 
in  some  way  while  it  was  in  my  possession. 

Q. — You  mean  to  saj'  that  it  must  have  come  from  your 
log?  A. — I  cannot  exactly  say  that  because  I  do  not  know 
if  it  did  or  not. 

Q. — Where  have  you  kept  these  logs?  A. — I  kept  them 
sometimes  on  board  the  ship  at  sea  and  sometimes  on  shore. 

Q. — Did  you  give  any  person  a  copy  of  that  log  or  of  any 
of  them?      A. — Not  that  I  remember  of. 

Q- — Do  you  know  of  any  person  having  taken  a  copy?  A. — 
No.  I  cann«)t  say  that  I  know  of  any  person  that  has  a  copy  of 
iiny  of  uiy  log  Imoks. 


40 


60 


m 


!■■ 


:..i 


:||ij!iii 


iiil 


ifif'ITfff 


I'"!  I  "•!' 


ulM"^) 


lO 


20 


30 


444 
(A  lex.  M«'I-i'iin : — <  'roMH.) 

Q. — Now  ,vtiii  Htiitt'd  tJiiit  before  ,voii  were  in  HieHe  veHMelw 
at  all,  (iiat  in  the  ,veai-  lHH:t  ,voii  were  on  iMiard  llu>  Hliip  "Han 
IMego?"      A.— YeH,  sir 

Q.— On  a  walrnninf;  trip?      A.— llnntinK  an<t  waliiiHinK. 

Q. — And  j(Mi  have  a  Itook  wliicli  hIiowk  that  in  that  ,vear 
yon  jjot  ;{2!>  Healn  in  tlie  Iteliriuf;  Sea?      A. — YeH.  Hir. 

Q. — Will  .voH  tell  me  what  became  of  thowe  Healn  wiien  .von 
came  to  Victoria?  A. — Tlione  Healn  w«'re  Hold  by  the  nniH 
tor  in  Victoria. 

Q.— To  whom?      A.— To  Mr.  T.  Fiiilibe. 

Q.— Yon  sold  them  to  T.  Lul)l)e?  A.— The  master  of  the 
ship  did. 

Q. — Ilut  yon  did  not  yonrnelf?      A. — No. 

(/.—Do  yon  know  that  of  yournelf?  A.— That  in  the  in 
foiimition  I  received  from  the  nniHter  of  the  Hlii|t. 

(i.— At  the  time?      A.— At  the  time.  yen.  Hir. 

g.— That  waH  in  the  vear  IHH.'l,  waH  it?  A.— In  tlie  fall  of 
'8;i. 

(i.— And  you  liad  iS'Jfl  neals? 

(i. — And  liow  many  walrunes? 
many  walnisen  we  had — wo  did  not  have  an.y 
ivory. 

Q. — Did  you  kill  any  walruses? 
have  killed  one  or  two. 

Q. — If  it  should  turn  out.  Mr.  Mclienn.  that  you  did  not 
brin^  that  numl)er  of  seals  to  Mr.  Lublte  in  that  year,  what 
would  von  sav?  A. — Well,  there  inif^ht  be  a  mistake  in  l!ie 
total. 

Q. — If  it  should  turn  out  that  you  did  brin>r  th«'m  there, 
but  that  tlwy  were  brought  to  Mr.  L>ibbe  in  1S82 


A. — Yes,  sir. 

A. — I  cannot  say  as  to  liow 
we  IukI  some 

A. — No,  sir — we  mi){ht 


yon  say 


what  would 
San  DieCfo" 


know     how 


You  had  some  seals  broujjht  by  tlu 
in  1HH2?     A.— Yes.  sir,  I  think  so. 

Q. — Who  by  and  how  nuiny?    A. — I  do  not 
many  there  were  in  1HS2  l)ecause  I  was  not  on  board  the  ship. 

Q. — If  it  should  turn  out  that  tlu>  exact  amount  of  seiils 

whi<>h  you  mention  as  beinj;  broufjht  in  1SH:{  were  l»rou};ht  in 

1S82.  what  would  yon  say?     A. — It  would  be  very  stran^'e  if 

40  thev  were  brought  in  1882  Iwcause  I  was  on  board  llu-  ship 

in  1883. 

Q. — It  would  not  rpiite  agree  with  the  little  book,  would  if 
A. — No,  sir,  it  would  not. 

Q. — J  list  another  instance;  I  did  not  quite  catch  yonr  ans- 
wer when  Mr.  Dickinson  was  examining  you  the  other  day. 
You  hav<'  in  this  Itook  an  account  which  purports  to  be  the 
seals  caught  in  1887?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — That  is  to  say,  any  person  looking  at  that  would  say 
that  that  is  the  amount  of  seals  caught  in  the  vessel  in  whicli 
yon  were  in  1887,  would  they  not?  A. — It  might  be  to  a  per 
son  looking  at  it  in  that  way,  but  the  total  amount  is  not 
correct. 

Q. — That  is  what  you  say?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  l<M)king  at  the  page  of  the  l)ook  itself,  that  irf 
what  it  would  a])])ear  to  be?  A. — It  might  apitear  that  way 
to  you,  but  not  to  me. 

(i.— On  the  face  of  the  book  it  looks  like  that?  A.— It 
might  to  you.  but  not  to  me. 

Q. — As  a  matter  of  fact  now  we  will  take  these  entricf" 
for  June,  they  are  as  follows:  June  2.  151  seals;  June  ;{,  44 
seals;  June  4,  28  seals;  Jun<'  (>,  !t5  seals;  June  7,  12.5  seals; 
June  8,  1!>7  se-als;  June  10,  172  seals;  June  11,  ;{8  seals.  As 
a  matter  of  fact  n<me  of  these  really  were  taken  in  18H7? 
A. — They  were  taken  in  188(i  by  the  schooner  "Mary  Ellen" 
and  I  took  the  ])ositions  and  ])laces  then  in  that  book  so  that 
I  could  refv'r  to  them.  I  wanted  to  have  the  positions  of 
where   I   caught   th(>  seals.     It   was  considered   pretty  good 


50 


60 


10 


445 
(Ali'X.  .Mclit'im : — Ciiikh.) 

^i'oiiimI,  iiikI  I  iiiifjlit  want  to  ^o  tlicrt'  iiKtiin.  That  Ih  the 
lii-Mt  catcli  cvt'i'  UMuU'  on  \hv  Fair  \V«'alli('r  k>'<>i)i><1  •»  l^!^"- 

ti.— Wlieiv  (Hd  yoii  m't  tlii'  log  of  (he  "Marv  Klk-u"?  A.— 
I'loiu  tli«>  iiiaHlcr  of  the  Hliip. 

Q. — Who   waM   he?     A. —  iMiii   MfU-an. 

(J.— Ho  that  is  thf  txphinatioii  of  thaf?  A.— Yt's,  sir.  for 
lhi>  iiionlh  of  .Innc,  IMHH. 

(j, — it  Ih  a  fart  tht'ii  that  ,vou  ])iit  in  tlifrc  ho  nian.v  Hfaln, 
iipparciitlv  aH  caajiht  in  1HS7?  Now  wlicn  yon  came  to  nialvc 
ap  Ihf  total  catch  of  :\.')'2't  Hcals  in  1HH7,  will  you  tell  \iw 
when  that  wmh  made  up  and  why  it  waH  made  that  way?  A. 
— It  Hhonld  he  exprcNNed  ditfen-ntly  in  the  book,  I  underHtood 
it  NntYiciently  for  my  own  information. 

ti. — The  entry  at  the  bottom  of  tl»'  itnpe  Ih  as  followtc 
"Total.  :W2.')  HeiilK,  1SM7.  A.  MrLoan,  Hchooner  'Marv  Ellen,' 
>ictorin.  H.  ('."     A.— Yes.  Hir. 

(2. — Will  yon  tell  me  why  yon  totalled  np  these  seals  which 

2Q  were  not  cau<{ht  in  1SS7  so  aH  to  make  them  a]>pear  as  if  they 

were  canfjht  in  1SM7?     A. —  I  did  not  wish  to  make  it  api)ear 

as  if  they  were  cannht  in  1HH7,  and  I  just  entered  thoni  up 

in  that  way. 

Q. — That  is  your  ex]»lanati(m  for  having  totalled  th<>ni  np 
in  that  way?  A. — I  tixwHH  that  I  had  all  the  positions  down 
and  nnmliei-  of  seals  for  the  dilTerent  years  and  I  added  them 
up.  Did  I  not  jjive  the  total  for  the  "Mary  Ellen"  for  1887 
on  Saturday  last?  It  amounted  to  2.4llt»  and  some  odd.  I 
kcj»t  that  book  for  my  own  information  and  I  never  expected 
30  it  to  appear  in  court. 

The  ("ommiHsioner  on  the  jmrt  of  Iler  Majesty: — There  is 
also  a  pencil  mark  there  •'188(!."     Who  put  that  there? 

Mr.  Peters: — Tlint  was  n  memorandum  he  was  makint;  up 
in  court.     I  will  ask  him  that  questicm. 

ii. — I  want  you  to  ex])lain  what  those  words  are  written  in 
pencil?     A.— June,  18HG. 

ii. — When  did  you  make  that  entry  in  jwucil  there?     A. — 

40   NN'hen  I  was  adding  it  uj*  in  court  here  on  Friday  afternoon, 

1  think.     It  was  just  to  sho'     that  tlu'se  belonged  to  188(». 

(J. — And  also  these  tl>j;nres  -'4!M!."  These  were  put  in  the 
hook  lately.  A. — Yes.  sir,  taat  was  Saturday  afternoon 
when  I  was  making  up  the  dates  for  the  <'atch  of  1887. 

Q. — Do  yon  notice  at  the  liottom  of  this  same  pan^'  I  am 
rcferrinjj;  io,  the  pafje  referring  to  1887.  there  was  a  word 
written  there  which  vou  scratched  out?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i.— What  was  that  word?     A.— "Master." 

(i. — When  did  yon  scratch  that  out?  A. — Some  time  aRO. 
iO      i], — How  lonjj  a^o?     A. — I  cannot  say  exactly. 

(}. — lint  I  want  you  to  state  exactly,  how  loufj;  ago  is  it 
that  yon  scratched  that  word  out?  A. — Probably  a  month 
or  probably  two  months. 

(}. — Tell  me  what  object  yon  had  a  month  or  two  months 
ajjo  in  scratcliinfi  anythinfi  out  of  this  book?  A. — When  I 
received  a  lettt'r  from  Mr.  Hodwell  at  San  Francisco  I 
tliouftlit  probably  I  miftht  recpiire  to  be  here,  and  then  in 
lookinj;  over  my  books  1  found  that  would  be  a  mistake. 

Q. — As  soon  as  you  heard  you  were  likely  to  jjive  evidence 

''O  you  commenced  scratching  things  out  of  that  book?     A. — 

I  scratched  out  what  T  tlionglit  would  not     bo     correct.     I 

scratched  out  the  word  "master"  be<anse  I  was  not  master. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — You  scratched  out  the  word  "master"  un- 
der the  words  "Alexander  McLean"?     A. — Yes. 

Mr.  Peters: 


)mi( 
book 


-Did  you  scratch  anything  else  out     of     the 
•k?     A. —  I   think  there  has  been  a   paper  pasted  on  the 


iiii 


i.l; 


lO 


446 

(Ali'x.  McLi'iiu: — Cross.) 

Q. — 1  did  uot  iiu'au  that.  In  tlu'  tirst  pajjif  under  the  lu-ad- 
iug  "1><8;{"  did  you  stratcli  Moiut'tliinf;  out?  A. — Yes,  sir,  I 
Bcratihcd  sometliiu};  out  tlu'iv,  I  scratclunl  "niastiT"  olt'. 

Q. — You  iiad  yourself  down  as  master  of  the  "San  l)ie};o"? 
A. — Yes,  sir,  there  was  a  (ajttain  on  board,  but  I  did  tlie 
navigatiiifj,  so  tluit  actuall.v  I  was  the  practieal  master. 

(2. — Orjiiinallv  in  tliis  booii  for  1SS:{.  wlien  in  llie  scliooner 
"San  Diefjo"  vour  entry  was  "A.  McLean,  master  of  tlie 
schooner  'San  Diego'?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  tliat  entry  remained  in  that  boolv  for  liow  h>ng  a 
time?     A. — Till  probably  about  a  month  or  six   weeks  ago. 

Q. — Had  you  any  object  in  scratching  it  out?     A. — Yes. 

(i.— Wli-at  object?  A. — IJecause  I  was  not  the  actual  mas- 
ter ai  the  lime,  I  was  the  jtractical  master.     I  acted  as  nayi 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


-Yes, 


*' <  ■   • I 

gator  and  k(';)t  the  ship's  log  book. 

(.i. — That  was  incorrect  and  you  struck  it  out.     ...     . . ., 

sir,  there  was  a  master  that  was  on  board  the  ship  and  he 
cleared  her  from  the  Custom  House  and  entered  hei-. 

Q. — There  was  iinother  entry  I  wanted  you  to  (>xplain — for 
the  year  1SS7.  You  haye  an  entry  made  liere  running  on  the 
face  of  the  page  rej (resenting  the  year  1SS7  "Add  .'50  miles  to 
longitude."  \Yhat  do  you  mean  by  that?  A.— I  found  after 
my  position  was  taken  that  my  chronometer  was  out  .'5(1 
miles. 

Q. — Out  .*?(»  miles?     A. — Yes,  sir.  '.W  miles  or  2  minutes. 

Q. — When  did  you  find  that  out?  .\. — I  found  that  out 
later  on  in  the  season,  that  is  after  I  made  my  catch  of  seals. 
^vhen  I  got  an  obseryati(m  and  could  lake  it  jtroperly. 

Q. — ^Yllen  did  you  make  that  entry?  A. — Tliat  entry  was 
made  when  I  was  making  uj)  this  log. 

of  the  "Mary  Ellen"   for 


Mr.   IV'ters:- 

1880? 


-Have  vou   the  lot 


Mr.  Dickinson: — T'nless  it  is  in  one  of  those  luxdis. 
Mr.  ^Yarren:— >Ye  haye  not  it. 

Mr.  Peters: — (To  witness):  Q. — Now  will  you  tell  me  vvlu. 
was  the  captain  of  the  "San  Diego"  in  188:5?  A. — ('apt. 
Cathcurt  cleared  her  from  (he  Cus(on)  House. 

y. — How  do  you  spell  that  word?     A. — C  a  t  h-c-u-r-t. 

Q. — And  you  sailed  from  San  Francisco  at  what  time  of 
that  year?  A. — I  cannot  say  the  exact  date,  but  it  might 
have  been  in  March  probably. 

Q. — And  you  went  along  the  coast  to  Kehring  Sea?  A.— - 
Along  th(^  coast  at  (irst. 

Q, — And  then   to  15ehring  Sea?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Aiul  came  back  to  Victoria?     A. — Y''s,  sir. 

(y — And  you  lef(  your  ci'ew  at  N'ictcn'ia?  .\. — 1  am  no( 
sure  if  all  the  f:ri'w  were  left  iiere  or  not.  Tlie  most  of  it 
was  probably  left  or  it   might  be  all  tif  them. 

Q. —  1  am  now  g<(ing  to  take  you  to  another  matter.  You 
have  told  us  that  tliere  is  a  great  dilference  between  canoes 
and  boats,  and  that  you  object  to  canoes  wiih  wliite  men  in 
them.  As  a  matter  of  fad  did  you  ever  do  any  scaling 
with  while  men  in  canoes?  A. —  I  have  liad  while  men  (o 
go  out  in  canoes  fi-om  the  vessel,  but  I  have  not  made  a  gen- 
ei'al  iiractice  of  it. 

(i. — Then  you  have  iia<l  no  expeiieiice  in  Ihai  I'cspecl  ?  .\. 
— No,  sir.  not  willi  wliile  men  in  canoes,  and  I  never  knew  of 
any  while  men  sealing  in  canoes  that  made  a  success  of  it. 

(.i. — There  are  a  jjood  many  things  you  do  not  know.  .\. — 
There  are  ipiile  a  lot  of  things  I  do  not  know. 

Q. — ^^■|lat  (hi  yon  lull  a  good  day's  hunting  for  a  boat?  A. 
— In  a  goo<l  da\'>i  scaling,  smne  limes  (hey  gel  up  as  liigli 
as  no  or  ')'>  seals;  that  is  a  pi'cKy  larye  day's  caldi. 


'  m 


447 

lAlcx.  .Mclx'jiu: — (Ji'oss.) 

Q. — IIow  iiijiiiv  (lavs  <li(l  vou  lvii<»\v  a  boat  to  latch  that 
niimbcr?     A. — Vt-rv  few. 

Q. — Would  :{(!  seals  be  a  good  dav?  A. — Yes.  sir,  an  I'xtra 
^(Kid  day. 

(^.^Aiid    if  you    found   canoes   on    -toard  a    certain   vessel 
nuinned  by  white  men   were  catcliing  as  inucli  as  :?()  oi-  40 
seals  a  day,  woubl  you  think  that  ju-etty  fair?     A. — Yes,  sir, 
,,)  jiretty  fair. 

(2.— Just  as  <>()od  as  an  Indian  could  do?     A. — It  niiffht  be. 

If  i(  ju'oved  a  success  it  is  sli-anjje  they  do  not  follow  it  up. 

Q. — If  a  vessel  was  seized  you  could  not  follow  it  u]»,  could 

you?     A. — No,  Itul  if  I  was  going  out  again  and  found  it  sue- 

cessfid  I  think  I  wcuild  try  it  again. 

(i. — All  you  know  is  that  yon  did  not  try?  A. — No,  I  do 
not  apjifove  of  it.     I  do  not  think  it  would  prove  a  success. 

il — Hut  it  ])roved  in  tliis  case  that  it  was?     A. — It  niiglit 
iiave  been  in  that  case,  i>iii  according  to  the  catch  you  niadt' 
2a   Up  to  the  day  you  were  k  ized  it  did  not  look  to  jirove  Vi'vy 
successful. 

Q. — .\nd  that  dej»ends  on  a  great  many  circumstances  as 
you  say?       A. — Yes,  sir,  it  does. 

Q. — On  the  number  of  canoes,  the  number  of  men,  and  all 
that  sort  of  thing?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

ii. — Now  I  want  to  take  you  to  another  matter.  You 
slated  that  you  had  a  great  deal  to  do  with  the  vessels?  A. 
— Yes.  sir,  I  had  some. 

<.i. — Tell  me  how  many  vessels  you  si)ecially  paid  for  the 
',C)  outtllting  of?     A. — Of  cours<'  I  did  not  actmilly  jtay,  but  I 
made  out  the  bill,  what   was  re<iuired  f(tr  the  sliip  in  lltting 
it  out. 

(i. — \Yhat  do  you  mean  by  saying  that  you  made  out  the 
bills?  A. — I>id  you  make  out  the  bills  that  were  wanted? 
.\. — Yes,  sir. 

(-1. — Yon  mexn  tlial  you  did  nuike  out  the  bills  for  what 
y(Mi  wanted  for  certain  trij)s?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

(■i. — I  want  to  know  how  numy  yon  made  out?     A. —  I  made 
up  the  bill  for  everv  vessel   1   had  been  on  board  of  except 
4"   (he  "San  Diego"  and  "Mary  Ellen"  for  1887. 

(i. — That  is  two  you  did  not  make  out?     A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q.-  -In  1HS;{  you  say  you  were  on  the  "San  Diego"?     A. — 
^  <",  sir. 

ii. — ^"ou  did  not  make  out  that  bill,  did  yon?  A. — I  did 
not  make  init   her  bills. 

(i. — In  18H4  what  vessel  were  von  on?     A. — The  "Favour- 
ite." 
(2. — Did  you  make  out   the  l»ills  that   year?     A. — Yes.  sir. 
-Q       (2. — ^'ou  made  out  llie  bills  of  what    was  reipiired?     A. — 
^'es,  sir. 
(J — And  in   ISS')  what   ship  weri'  you   in?       A. — The  "Fa- 
-  voiirite." 

(i.— Have  you  the  liills  for   ISSI?     A.— No.  sir. 
t2. — ^'o^  have  not  Iheaccoujjls  of  what  it  would  cost?     A. 
— No,  sir,  the  accounts  were  (diieed  in   the  Ixioks. 

♦2.— NN'hen   did  you   see  them?     A. —  I   exjieci    I    must    have 
seen  them   in    ISS4. 
^  t2- — Vou  have  not   seen  them  since?     A. — No.   I  think  not, 

but  of  coiirsi'  I  miglil   liave  seen  tiiem  since  ilicn. 

'2- — Do  .^«>u  know  wiiat  you  actually  spent  in  the  "Favour- 
ite" ill  |,'«!st.'  A.— I  cannot  say  as  lo  the  exact  ligiires  fof 
I'^SJ,  but   the  books  will  show  that. 

<2— NoSy  then  I  will  take  you  to  ISH.").  In  what  siiip  were 
\<>\\  liicn?'    .\.     hi  the  scluioner  "Favourite." 

(2-  Did  yuii  niilii'  ihr  tilings  llial  were  rci|iiii\'(l  thai 
,m:ii?      a.      Ves.  sir. 


:im 


i(«Mt''; 


lO 


20 


3*^ 


40 


50 


60 


448 

(AK'x.  McLem: — Cross.) 

il. — Do  you  know  what  thoy  amounted  to?  A. — I  cannot 
say  exactly  what  vlie  amount  is. 

Q. — Well,  can  you  say  ap'/roximately?  A. — I  could  by 
rtyuring  it,  I  could  make  uj  nearly  the  exact  expense  of  tht' 
vessel. 

Q. — lUit  you  cannot  sa'  from  memory?  A. — No,  sir,  not 
from  memory. 

Q. — ^^'hat  vessel  v  ^'l•o  you  in  in  1880?  A. — The  "Favoui' 
ite." 

Q. — Did  you  n.ake  the  bills  out  that  year?     A. — Yes.  sir. 
Q. — You  mad>'  out  the  bills  for  what  was  rcipiired  that 
year?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Do  you  know  what  amount  of  money  was  spent?  A. 
— I  could  not  say  as  to  the  exact  amount,  but  I  could  make 
up  the  ship's  expense  for  the  lime  she  was  out. 

Q. — Can  you  say  how  much  there  was  s]K'nt  api)roximate 
ly?  A. — It  would  depend  on  the  number  of  men  on  board 
the  vessel — I  could  make  out  the  statement. 

Q. — You  are  fjoiuf;  to  make  a  calculation  I  presume  of 
IpidO  a  man  for  so  many  months?  A. — Yes.  sir,  on  the  way 
it  averages.     I  could  make  out  a  general  average. 

Q. — I  will  come  to  tliat  in  a  minute  and  see  where  it  will 
land  you.  That  is  the  way  you  would  make  it  up  now  if  you 
figured  it  out?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Your  calculation  would  dejM'iid  on  tlie  correctness  of 
your  averag;-  of  fsiOO.  say  ^10  a  month  for  a  man?  A.— That 
is  what  I  have  found  to  be  the  average,  and  I  have  done  so 
several  times. 

(.}. — And  that  is  the  way  you  would  calculate  it?  A.— V.  s, 
sir. 

Q. — In  1SS7  what  vessel  were  you  on?  A. — I  was  out  in 
the  scliooner  "Mary  Ellen.'' 

<i. — Did  you  make  np  the  accounts  for  her?  A. — I  assist 
ed  in  making  u])  the  accounts. 

Q. — Did  you  make  out  all  the  bills  or  did  some  one  else 
do  it?     A. — I  assisted  in  making  them  cut. 

Q. — Can  you  tell  us  any  more  about  her  bills  than  yo\i  can 
about  the  others?      A. — \Yell  I  was  on  board  the  vessi  1. 

Q. — In  ]SS8  where  were  vou?  A. — I  was  in  the  "Marv 
Ellen." 

Q. — Can  you  tell  us  any  more  about  her  bills  than  the  bills 
of  the  others?      A. — It  runs  about  the  sanu'  average. 

Q. — Do  you  remen\ber  the  amount?  A. — Not  the  exact 
amount. 

ti- — Or  within  five  or  six  or  seven  hundred  dollars?  A. — 
I  could  come  closci'  tlian  (hat  to  it. 

Q. — \Yell  give  us  a  shot  at  it.      You  know  the  "Mary  El 
len,"  you  know  the  number  of  men,  you  know  the  number 
of  boats,  and  tell  me  Ironi  uKinoiy  if  you  can.       Within  |7(l(> 
1  will  give  you  of  wlia*  it  c««(s.       \. — She  cost  about  f'JIU)  a 
moutli  to  run  lier  for  provisions. 

Q. — (}iv(>  me  the  total  of  Ihe  (rip?  A. — 1<  dei)ends  upon 
(he  number  of  mondis  we  were  ou(.  In  coming  out  we  miglit 
have  some  stores  lefl  from  (lie  voyage. 

iy — Do  yon    Know   how    long  yon   were  ou(?       .\. —  I   <'an 
no(  sav  e.\ac(lv  liow  long  we  were  ou(  but  the  log  book  shows 
(ha(?" 

Mr  refers:— It  ought  to  show  it  but  I  do  not  know  wheth- 
er it  does  or  not. 

To  the  witness:  -I  only  want  (o  see  what  your  memory  is  in 
(he  maKer.  I'^iom  your  memoiy  vim  have  undertaken  (o 
(ell  ns  wliat  ouglil  (o  be  put  on  board  a  ship?  .\.-  Ye",  .ar, 
pretty  closely, 


1 J 


20 


30 


■10 


!;o 


On 


449 
(Al«'x.  McLfiin — <."ross.) 

Q. —  Now  I  will  giv^e  you  one  or  two  items.  You  do  puf 
pilot  bread  on  board  a  vessel  don't  you?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  quantity?      A. — A  little  over  a  box  or  so  aver- 
;i{;e  to  eaeli  l)oat. 
H. — That  is  always  your  eustoni?      A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q. — No  matter  whelher  you  have  Indians  or  white  men  on 
lioai'd?      A. — There  wotild  be  a  dilTerence  with  Indians. 

Q. — How  mueh  dilTerence?  A.-  ^  n.ied  to  trad??  with  the 
Indians  and  sell  them  ])iscuits  and  ])i'ovisions. 

Q. — How  niu-h  dilTerence  would  ;he.'e  be?  A. — There 
would  be  quite  a  dilTerence.  T  would  carry  probably  about 
six  or  seven  boxes  of  the  l>read  to  give  to  Indians. 

Q. — Th.it  is  what  you  have  been  in  the  habit  of  doing?  A. 
V<'s,  sir,  and  the  balan<'(^  tiiey  would  have  to  buy. 

Q. — That  would  make  about  12  boxes  you  would  carry  rtl- 
tdgetlier?      A. — Less  than  that. 

Q. — That  is  your  usual  custom?  A. — Yes.  sir,  when  first 
I  went  down  the  coast  I  used  to  give  them  from  two  to  four 
biscuits  a  day  when  hunting.  When  not  hunting  he  would 
not  get  biscuits.      Tie  would  luive  to  buy  Ihem. 

(i. — \Ve  have  this  geneial  statenient  from  you  that  under 
no  circii.ustances  you  would  icciuire  more  tlian  lU  or  14  boxes 
of  l»iscuits?  A. — Well,  you  would  re<|uire  more  than  tliat  if 
you  did  not  have  anything  else  to  eat  but  bi.scuits. 

Q. — Of  course  you  would,  if  you  fed  them  (Ui  bisc\iits  and 
water  I  do  not  know  what  the  conseciuences  would  be;  but 
you  say  that  if  you  had  meat  and  everything  else  you  would 
not  require  so  many  biscuiis,  would  yir.i?  A. — No,  I  should 
think  not;  we  jjenerally  cany  tiiem  in  case  of  accident  or 
something  lik(>  that.  We  want  to  have  them  ready  in  case 
we  were  sliipwrecked  or  anytliing  like  that. 
Q. — That  is  vour  general  statement?  A. — Yes,  sir. 
(^.—Tlicre  was  a  log  kei>r  on  the  "Favourite"  for  IHSfi?  A. 
— Yes,  sir. 

(J. — I  wish  to  know  from  you  whether  that  is  a  correct  en- 
try in  the  log  under  date  of  the  7lh  July  ,  IHSIi.  You  refer  to 
theie  being  strong  west  winds  and  you  say  "the  crew  were  ro- 
ftoring  the  hold  and  taking  an  inventory  of  t'le  sliij/s  pro- 
visions? Among  otlier  IJiingH  I  tiud  li"  lioxes  o.  bread."  Is 
lliat  t'lere?  .\.— Yes,  sir. 
Q.— That  is  i)ilot  bread,  1  suppose?  A.— Yes.  sir. 
Q.— What  is  that  for?  A.— Tliat  would  be  partly  for  the 
use  of  the  crew  and  partly  for  sale  to  the  Indians. 

Q._So  that  you  had  been  at  sea  from  liie  122nd  of  May  and 
iin  (lie  7th  July  you  l^ad  -7  boxes  of  bread  on  board?  .\. — 
^^'s.  sir. 

Q.— .\nd  you  say  tliat  is  i)ilot  bread.      A.- 
lieve  tliat  is  correct. 

(i. — I  understood  you  to  say  a  moinciit  ago 
circumstances  whetlii'r  with  Indians  01  white  men  you  would 
wiiiit  more  than  12  boxes?  .\.  12  boxes  would  b<'  f(M-  tiie 
siiiji's  use  but  you  would  carrv  inoie  for  sah  to  tlie  Indians. 
(J. — x„w  this  purports  to  !»■  an  entry  in  >our  log  book  and 
vou  say  you  foiind  27  box^'s  of  bread  there?      .\. — Yes,  sir. 

(J.— What  do  you  say  to  that?  A— Tart  of  that  was  for 
sale  to  the   Iniliaiis. 

<i.— How  iiiaii\  Indians  ii:nl  you  on  board?  A. — Some- 
iliiiig  like  20  oi-  22  Indians. 

il — \\  •  le  you  feetliiic  Ihem? 
I  lie  balance  they    would   buy. 
own  food  on  the  vessel,  such  as 
mice  from  the  ship. 

(i.—  Wer<'  yiMi  not  supplying  them  with  bread?       .\. — Not 
all. 
29 


-Yes,  sir,  I  be- 


lliat  under  no 


.\. — I'art  feeding  Ihem  and 
Tliev  cai'i'ied  some  of  their 
tisli.'and  w<»uld  buy  the  bal 


45° 


Ki'iti  . 


lO 


20 


3^ 


40 


;o 


6t) 


(Ah'x.  MilA'au — Ci'OBH.) 

Q. — Wert'  vou  siijiplvinjr  them  at  all  with  bread?  A. — 
I'art. 

Q. — Wliat  part?  A. — Some  days  I  used  to  give  them  four 
biscnits  a  day  and  at  limes  they  would  buy  tlwlr  bread  from 
the  ship.      We  used  to  sell  I  hem  fresh  bread  as  well 

Q.— Did  they  get  bread  from  you?  A. — Some  days  I 
would  give  them  some  and  more  days  I  probably  would  not. 

Q. — What  was  the  lule?      A. — There  was  no  regular  rule. 

The  ("omniissioner  on  the  part  of  Hir  Majesty: — Do  1 
understand  tliar  those  Indians  would  buy  the  bread  for  any 
other  purpose  than  to  eat  it?  A. — They  bought  it  for  the 
jiurpose  of  eating  it.  We  sold  tiiem  biscuits  and  sugar  and 
tea.  and  things  like  that. 

Mr.  Peters: — Von  say  that  some  of  the  Indians  wouhi  bay 
biscuits?     .\. — Yes,  sir. 

ii. — .\ud  he  would  buy  them  to  eat  tlwin?     .V. — Yes.  sii'. 

(j. — You  did  not  give  them  any  at  all?  A. — If  they  made 
a  good  day's  calch  we  would  give  them  something  extra. 

(i.— You  had  these  biscuits  on  board  for  the  pur])OHe  of 
f<'eding  the  crew  on  board  whethei-  they  bought  them  or  not? 
.^. — Yes,  sir,  and  they  were  generally  fed  at  that  time  in  part. 
If  there  was  any  bread  left  over  after  the  voyage  they  would 
buy  a  whole  bo.\  iind  take  on  shore  with  them.  We  kept  it 
for  the  |)urpos(>  of  trade. 

Q. — Now  they  would  not  have  a  chance  of  taking  that 
bread  from  off  the  ship  and  trade  with  until  the  voyage  was 
over?       .\. — Tln-y  us  -d  to  buy  goods  from  the  vessel. 

(i. — Hut  on  board  *ihip  they  would  not  have  a  chance  to 
do  anything  wiili  the  goods  I'xcept  to  eat  them?  A. — That 
is  all  and  at  the  end  of  the  voyage  thev  would  buy  what  was 
on  board  the  shi]i  and  lake  it  ashore. 

(.}. — Hut  duiing  the  voyage  they  could  not  and  would  not 
buy  anything  I'Xcept  what  they  could  eat?  .\. — Sometimes 
they  might  buy  some  boxes  of  bread  on  the  way  I'oining  down 
or  they  might  buy  tlour  or  sonuMhing  in  the  way  of  ti.ide. 

Q. — \Vill  yo\i  tell  me  what  a  sack  of  tlour  contains?  .\. — 
Well  there  is  .ilnoit   four  sacks  to  the  bari'el. 

Q. — .\  barrel  contains  iltMi  )iouiids  and  that  would  be  .■)(( 
lbs.  to  a  sack.  I  bclie\e  foi'  sealing  puiposes  you  always 
have  the  supply  of  tlour  luit  in  sacks.  .\. — Yes.  sii".  Hut 
sometimes  wc  put  sacks  (■'  flour  into  casks  to  keep  it  from 
getting  damp. 

(2. — lint  f(U'  the  pnrp<»se  of  stowing  it  away,  as  a  rule  yoti 
carried  it  in  sacks?  A. — Some  ships  cari'ied  it  in  that  way. 
but   I  have  seen  them  put  into  large  casks. 

{}. — That  is  to  say  vou  (■ni(>tied  the  sai'ks  into  casks?  .\. — 
Yes.  sir. 

Q. — \o  uialler  liow  you  stoic  it  away.  If  you  go  to  bn,\ 
Hour  foi-  a  shiji's  us"  how  do  you  buy  it?  .\.  — We  buy  il 
liv  the  bnrrcl. 

il. — .\\u]  your  bill  would  ap))ear  as  if  so  many  barrels  went 
on  board?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — .\lihougli  as  a  matl<'r  <>(  fact  yon  nniy  have  stored  il 
on  your  ship  in  sacks  or  in  casks?  A. — Yes,  sir.  It  gene 
rall.N  comes  on  board  in  sacks  and  we  put  it  in  casks  after- 
\»  aids. 

Q.— \ow  I  find  in  'his  invcaiory  that  bi-sides  liie  bread  yon 
had  on  board  the  sdioouer  ai  lliai  lime  you  also  had  42  sacks 
of  Hour?       .\. —  Yes.  sir. 

(i.  ~  That   is  light   is  it?       .\.— Y<s,  sir,  that    .voiild  be  cov 

led,    I    uucss 

{}. — Thai  would  re)»resenl  ovei'  10  bai'i'els  of  tlour?  A. — 
Yes.  sir 

(i.     .\nd  ihai  was  Die  "III  of  -liily?      .\.--Vcs.  sir, 


1 J 


20 


."^O 


•|0 


Go 


45' 
(Alt'X.  McLoan — Ci-osh.) 

Q. — You  told  us  Honu'thing  as  to  the  quantity  of  sugar 
which  you  would  take  ou  board  a  vi'ssti?      Yi's,  sir. 

Q.— What  quantity  did  you  tell  us  day  before  jcsterday  you 
had  taken?       A. — About  two  barrels. 

Q. — Did  you  say  that  the  day  before  yesterday?  A.— I 
cannot  exactly  say?  I  said  so  many  things  it  is  pretty  hard 
to  get  hold  of  all  of  theni.  I  think  I  did  state  that  it  was 
12  1-2  barrels  of  sugar. 

Q— Was  that  what  you  said?      A.— I  think  so. 

().— Would  that  b((  corect?      A  —Yes,  sir. 

Q.— What  is  the  weight  of  a  barrel  of  sugar?  A.— .\  ke;r 
would  weigh  perhaps  200  lbs. 

Q.— And  a  barrel  would  weigh  about  400  lbs?  .\.— Yes. 
sir. 

Q.— And  your  answer  the  other  day  was  that  you  would 
put  in  about  2  1-2  barrels  of  sugar?  A.— Yes,  sir,  and  thai 
would  nuike  about  400  lbs. 

Q.— In  this  same  inventoryl  tind  that  on  the  7th  July  you 
had  5  1-2  kegs  of  sugar?      A. — "W'S,  that  is  there. 

Q. — That  would  be  how  many  pounds?  A. — What  I  re 
fered  to  was  for  u  crew  of  11  men  but  I  had  more  than  11 
men. 

Q. — You  refer  to  11  men  and  I  refer  to  double  that  quantity 
of  men  when  half  the  voyage  was  over;  that  would  leave  it 
about  a  crew  of  11  nu'u.      A. — I  left  her(>  in  June. 

(}. — You  left  here  in  May.  e.xcuse  nu>?  A. — In  May  was  it? 
Well  the  books  will  show  the  day.  At  the  time  we  were  trad 
iiig  with  the  Indians  aiul  carried  goods  ou  board  and  prob 
ably  they  would  want  some  advance  before  leaving  the  coast 
Uefore  we  took  the  canoes  on  board  probably  the  Indians 
might  retjuire  to  leave  some  provisions  on  shore  to  keep  their 
families  until  their  return  and  then  we  would  go  to  work  and 
siiftply  them  and  give  an  advance  of  10  or  l'^  dollars  with 
tile  goods.  Other  times  they  might  not  reipiire  any  and  on 
that  account  we  would  have  some  goods  on  board  the  ship 
when  we  returiud.  We  always  had  iiinie  thau  we  reijuired 
for  trading  jtiu-poses. 

(i.— That  is  your  explanation?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  go  to  any  Indian  plact>s  that  year  that  you  are 
aware  of?  A. — I  suppose  we  did  to  several  places,  my  books 
will  show  that. 

(i. — Did  you  make  the  ordinary  advance  to  the  Indians? 
A. — Whatever  was  necessary. 

Q. — .\nd  notwillistanding  tliat  yon  had  5  1-2  kegs  of  sugar? 
.\. — Some  Indians  might  want  to  buy  a  canoe  and  I  would  ad 
Viince  tliem  the  goods  or  the  cash  to  luiy  it. 

(i. — In  addition  to  (hat  I  see  that  you  had  2  12  barfels  of 
beef  on  that  dav?      .\. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— And  a  barrel  and  a  half  of  pork?      .\. — Yes.  sir. 

(J.— Tliat  is  abo\it  right  is  it?  A.— That  would  be  righi 
fill'  the  number  of  men  we  had. 

Q. — Leaving  that  log.  I  want  to  see  semelhing  again.  I 
want  to  see  again  iiow  correct  your  statement  abo\it  sii|(])lies 
is  in  this  litll"'  book  llial  you  pnidiice,  ^'ou  havv  a  s1a(<' 
nicnl  at  the  back  of  llie  boolv  which  ])urports  to  be  "llunling 
outfit  of  fight  i)oats,  12S  men,  for  nine  months'  voyage,"  does 
it  not?      .\.-  Yes.  sir. 

Q. — That  is  what  it  purports  to  be?  \. — Yes,  sir,  that  was 
niade  for  the  sciiooncr  "Honanza." 

(j.-WIwu?      A.— In  ls»J4. 

Q.— In  tH84?      A.     In  1S04  ratlur  T  should  say. 

Q. — .\nil  it  shows  the  actual  atnoiint  of  sliilT  that  you  put 
onboard  lur?  A. — Yes  sir,  the  actual  amount  that  went  on 
bojird  the  sliip. 


iii;! 


452 


MIMt 


10 


20 


(Alt'x.  MclA'iin — CroHB.) 

Q. — V-.m  yon  tell  mi'  wlicii  you  inatU'  that  iip?  A. — That 
was  made  up  in  1894  for  the  voyagf,  after  the  ship  weut  to 
Hea. 

(i. — You  made  it  yourself?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — It  is  in  your  luindwriting?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Tliat  is  wluit  actually  took  place?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Now,  I  want  to  come  down  to  one  item  in  this.  \'ou 
have  hei'e  an  entry  for  2.(I0((  lbs.  of  supai?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Did  that  go  on  board?  A. — Yea,  sir,  that  went  on 
board. 

The  ("omniissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — How 
lonfi  a  voyaffe  with  how  many  men?  A. — It  is  a  voyage  for 
eipiit  boats  and  28  men.  and  is  for  nine  months'  voyape. 

Q. — Does  the  book  show  whether  they  were  white  men  or 
Indians?      A. — They  were  white  hunters 

Ky  Mr.  Peters: — It  also  shows,  does  it  not,  '20  barreit'  beef, 
and  10  barrels  pork?      A. — Yes.  sir. 


33 


40 


=;o 


Go 


-And  150  sacks  of  (lotir?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

-And  a  larse  cpiantity  of  canned  floods?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

-One  thousand  eight  hundred  lbs.  butter?       A. — Yes. 


sir. 


Q. — And  500  pounds  codfish?      .\. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  a  large  amount  of  other  items,  and  these  prices  are 
according  to  tlie  i)rices  in  San  Francisco,  are  they  not?  You 
put  in  San  Francisco  prices  when  you  were  making  up  the 
l)ill?  A. — Yes,  sir.  according  to  the  San  Francisco  prices  for 
I8!»4. 

Q. — Let  me  ask  you  this  question:  When  you  were  making 
you  calculations  of  about  #100  a  month,  did  you  calculate  at 
the  San  Francisco  jtrices,  or  did  you  not?  .\. — 1  calculated 
at  the  San  Francisco  i)rices. 

(.}. — Are  they  higher  or  lower  than  \'ictoria  prices?  A. — I 
believe  they  would  be  higher  at  tliat  time.  There  would  lu' 
the  difference  .if  duly  and  freight  u])  here. 

Q. — Were  they  higlier  or  nnf  A. — 1  cannot  say  what 
prices  here  w«>r('  at  that  time. 

(^. — Then,  sir,  wlicn  you  were  making  the  calculation  that  it 
would  cost  ?10  per  nian  ]h'V  month,  you  were  makinu  a  cal- 
culation on  till'  basis  of  San  Francisco  prices?  A. — San 
Friincisco  prices. 

i.}. — ^'ou  did  not  know  the  dilTerence  between  the  prices  in 
Siin  Fi;iniis<()  and  \'i<t(iria?  A. — Well.  I  did  not  know  flic 
<'xa<-t  figures  flien  of  what   the  pi'iccs  w<'re  here. 

(.}. — Then  your  calculations  is  founded  upon  a  basis  about 
which  you  did  not  know?  .\. — I  liave  calculalfd  on  flic 
basis  of  valuing  the  goods  at  the  |>rice  in  San  l^rancisco.  An- 
other tiling,  in  making  out  that  stalciuent,  this  vessel  was 
owned  by  ilie  racific  Trading  <"oiii|)aiiy  in  S;iii  I'^raiicisco. 
and  they  owned  six  or  se\('ii  otiier  vessels.  This  \  essel  cmi' 
lied  (■onsi<lerable  siiiiidies  on  lioard  for  the  other  vessels,  and 
(Hit  at  sea  or  in  jiort.  or  wherever  slie  was.  some  of  these 
goods  were  delivered  to  the  other  sliijis. 

Q. — I!ii(  voii  made  them  out  at  San  Fi':incisco  ]iriees?  .\  -- 
Yes. 

Q. — Then  aceordiii^c  to  San  I'^rancisco  iirices.  yon  sjieiit,  as 
fills  book  shows,  Sf'J.2!t4.0.%  for  irroceries  and  pravisions  alone, 
did  \-oii  not?  A.  — Yi'S,  sir,  for  I'S  men.  Hut  (hen  there 
was  more  Ih.iii  was  I'ecpiired  for  the  28  men,  iis  part  of  this 
was  intended  for  any  of  the  other  ships  that  should  run 
short — I  would  supply  them. 

Q.  -Then,  thin  did  not  reju'eseni  only  ihe  outfit  f(U'  one 
shi|;?  .\.  "  T  '"irriefi  uiore  than  would  be  suflicienf  for  mv 
own   use. 


lO 


20 


453 
(Alex.  MiLi'an — CrosH.) 

Q. — AiiHwt'i'  this  .iiH'stion.  This,  tlu'U,  did  jiot  n'pirst'nt 
lliL'  fair  tost  of  outfitt:n{?  «)IK'  vessel?  A. — It  represented  th(» 
tiiii-  oiitflttinjt  of  that  one  vessel. 

(i. — And  nothing  else?  A. — And  in  addition  the  extra 
sujiidies  for  any  other  sliijt.  If  a  vessel  wanted  a,  barrel  of 
Iteef  or  jiork,  I  wonld  let  her  have  it. 

(.i. — Now,  you  are  not  >;oinn  to  net  out  of  this.  1  ask  you 
lliis  question:  This  book  does  not,  therefore,  state  the  faii* 
( (»st  of  i»rovisioninK  (hat  vessel  alone?  A. — It  was  not  pul 
in  intentionally  for  lliat.  1  put  in  the  exaet  eost  to  that 
vessel  when  she  left  San  Franeisco  that  year. 

Q. — llavinjj  made  th(>  statein«'nt  that  it  does  not  eorrectly 
represent  it,  will  you  tell  me  what  object  you  had  in  putlinfT 
in  this  heading  to  it:  "Hunting  outfit,  eiftht  boats  and  2.S 
men  "for  nine  months'  voyajie?"      A. — Yes,  sir. 

H. — What  was  your  objeet?  A. — My  objeit  was  to  show 
what  the  ship's  expenses  were  from  the  time  she  left  Kan 
Fiancisco. 

Q. — To  show  to  whom?  A. — To  show  for  myself.  I 
wanted  to  see  what  tlie  v<'ssel  would  elear  at  the  end  of  the 
voyage. 

Q. — Answer  me  this:  Why  did  you  not  put  the  name  of 
i  u  vessel  at  the  top  of  that  statement  in  that  book?  A. — la 
ii  not  there? 

(2. — No,  nor  anywhere  in  it?  A. — Her  name  is  in  that  book 
for  ]S!)4,  where  she  made  her  eatch  there. 

Q. — I'erhaps  it  is.  Her  name  is  in  that  book,  is  it?  A. — 
Her  name,  the  schooner  "Honanza,"  is  there. 

Q. — When  did  you  i)Ut  that  there?  A. — That  was  proba- 
bly i)iit  there  about  three  or  four  weeks  ago — or  it  might  be 
later. 

iy — Now,  what  object  had  you  in  putting  that  name  there 


tlwee  or  four  wei'ks 


4° 


I  go 


?     A. — Hecause  I  was  master  of  the 


1.0 


.siii]i  and  1  did  not  enter  it  there.  And  I  also  added  u])  that 
••olumn  that  was  not  added  up  before. 

ii- — In  the  tiist  place,  both  in  the  outfit  account  and  with 
regard  to  the  vessel,  you  omitttKl  the  name  originally.  Well, 
tell  nie  why  you  put  that  in  three  or  four  weeks  ago?  A. — 
ISecause  the  column  was  not  added  up  and  I  had  forgotten  it. 

Q. — Why  did  you  put  in  this  entry,  "Alexander  McLean, 
master  "schooner  'Honanza,'  three  or  four  weeks  ago?  A. — 
Hccause  I  was  master,  and  it   had  not  been  jjlaced  there  before. 

ti. — Why  did  you  not  put  it  in  (here  before?  .\. —  I  sup- 
pose 1  neglected  putting  it   there.     I  did  not  tinish  it. 

ti. — Now,  then,  if  any  ix'rson  were  to  take  this  outtit  ac- 
count book — "Sealing  ouifit  of  H  boats  and  US  men,"  and  try 
to  get  information  fi'om  it,  he  would  think  by  looking  at  that 
liooU  tiiat  it  contained  an  account  of  what  it  would  cost  to  fit 
out  thiit  vessel  for  one  season?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

iy — Hut  he  would  be  deceived  in  that?  \. — It  was  not 
iiil ended   for  that  puri>ose. 

<i. — lie  would  be  deceived,  would  he  not?  \. — He  might 
be  deceived  but  it  would  not  deceive  me.  The  reason  I  would 
enter  (lie  value  of  the  goods  was  that  if  I  were  fitting  out 
another  vessel  .it  any  time,  I  could  refer  to  that  book  for  tla^ 
value  of  the  goods. 

Q- — Now,  thai  is  your  statement — that  you  did  not  make  it 
out  for  any  puri  >se  of  that  kind?     .\. — No,  sir. 

(i-— Is  that  trui  '     .\.— Yes,  sir. 

Q- — Will  yon  sw^  ir  that  it  is  true?     .V. — Yes,  sir. 

Q- — I  will  follow  hat  out  and  see  if  it  could  jiossibly  be 
true.     You  took  all  t    e  exjiem^es  at  first?     ,\. — Yes,  sir. 

Q- — And  you  add  tli  mi  up?     A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — .\nd  then  you  '..Mow  it  on:  "Cost  of  getting  2.(t()ll 
seals  at  *;{.(»(>  j)er  seal  to  huntcis,  *(t,(IO(t;  Iti  seals  at  |2.()0(l," 
and  other  items.     And  thi-n  you  sav  there  were  2,00(1  seals 


l.f 


Wl^pplpip 


U\<U' 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


454 
(A lex.   MtLi'un — Ciosh.) 

at  #11.  and  you  brinp  <»n(  tlio  proHt  on  Mn'w  wals  at  $8,2427 
A.— That  w()ul(l  be  im  tlie  basis  of  latchinp  2.()(»(»  Hcaln.  IJiit 
tlic  v»>KHcl  did  not  fjct  tliat  many.  That  wan  niad«'  up  on  th<' 
voyage  of  1SH4,  iK-foro  the  end  of  thf  8«'aHon.  I  tinnrcd  it 
out  on  till'  basis  of  p'ttinf;  2,(I0(»  seals,  to^  s«'(*  what  protlt  she 
would  nu\la<  brfori'  we  not  to  San  FrancisVct.  It  did  not  eonio 
out  correct,  because  we  did  not  fjet  tlie  2.(I0(»  seals. 

(i.— This  calculation  was  made  in  advance?  A.— Yew.  sir. 
(^. — iJefore  you  jjot  the  seals?  A. — Yes;  that  was  made  on 
the  vovajite  H'>"'>I  across,  and  the  entnes  of  the  accounts  of 
tile  sliip  in  tliat  boolv.  Tlien  I  tinm-ed  on  sujiposinji  I  would 
jiet  2.(KH)  seals,  what  profit  she  would  make.  After  I  return- 
ed from  the  voyajje  1  did  not  correct  it. 

(i.— And  you"  based  that  calculation  by  clmrninn  your  ship 
Willi  stores  and  other  jjoods,  which  you  say  you  minht  give  to 
other  vessels?  A.— Of  course,  my  intention  was  to  credit 
her  a^jain  at  the  end  of  the  voyage.  I  did  not  do  so,  as  I 
did  not  complete  that  statement.  1  put  that  in  for  my  own 
private  use. 

Q.— Now,  this  account  purports  to  contain  three  separate 
headinfjs,  does  it  not?  First,  boats,  (j;uns  and  ammunition? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— |2,4!»2.8rj?     A.— Yes,  sir. 

g.— The  s»'coud.  slop  chest  and  advances,  #2,788?  A.— 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.— The  third,  groceries  and  provisions,  f3,204.9.")?  A.— 
Yes.  sir. 

Q.— Total  ouUit,  #7,575.80?    A.— Yes,  sir. 
(i. — And  any  person  reading  that  would  imagine  that  that 
was  the  outfit  for  one  ship.  coiilainiiiK  28  men  and  8  boats? 
A. — Yes.  that  is  what   went  on  board  that     ship     for    that 
voyage. 

(i. — .\nd  before  that  entry,  you  have  a  detailed  statement 
of  each  one  of  these  things.  In  the  first  place,  you  have  the 
hunting  gear,  boats,  guns,  and  ammunition.  f2,4!)2.85 — that 
is  the  lirst  tiling  you  made  up?     .\. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  then  you  have  adviinees  to  crew,  and  slop  chest, 
amounting  to  what?    A.— #(i(;8.(l8. 

Q. — Here  von  have  groceries  and  provisions,  and  thev  come 
to  what?     A.— #2.2!»4.!»."). 

Q. — May  I  ask  you  whether  the  guns  and  ammunition  and 
boiits  that  are  in  this  book  were  for  that  one  vi'ssel?  A.— 
Yes,  sir. 

(}. — You  carried  no  ammunition  for  other  vesesls?  A. — If 
tlu'y  got  run  short,  I  might  have  sjiare  ammunition  on  board. 
(i. — Did  you  take  spare  ammunition  for  other  v«>ssels,  or 
did  you  not?  A. — I  took  some,  in  case  they  were  run  short. 
il. — How  much?  A. — I  cannot  say;  the  book  will  show. 
I  probably  might  have  three  kegs  to  spare.  I  always  carried 
plenty  of  ammunition,  and  I  have  given  ammunition  to  ships 
sailing  out  of  here  that  would  run  short. 

Q. — \Yould  the  slop  chest  be  sudicieni  for  your  own  vessel, 
(M-  was  it  for  others?  A. — More  than  suflit-ient  for  my  own 
own  vessel. 

(i. — Why  did  you  do  that?  A. — If  any  other  vessel  run 
short,  I  would  have  soim'  to  give  them. 

(i. — .\n(l  did  the  other  vessels  carry  an  extra  supply  also? 
.\. — \o;  this  vessel  was  a  larger  vessel,  and  took  su])plies 
and  brought  back  skins  to  San  Francisco. 

(■l- — That  being  the  case.  sh(>  being  larger  than  any  other, 
and  being  a  .supply  siiip  and  not  exactly  a  sealing  sliip,  will  you 
tell  me  w'ly  you  chose  her  to  jmt  her  suitjdies  in  this  book? 
.\. — It  sh.nvs  I  jiut  every  article  in  the  ship  there. 

Q. — Kilt  the  (jueer  [»art  is  that  you  did  not  i>iit  in  the  name 
of  the  slii])?  ,\. — You  can  refer  to  the  other  page  for  the 
catch  of  18S<J. 


|U 


40 


455 
(A1«'X.   McLt'iin- 


-(."roHs) 
"Honaiixa"  for  IWU?     A. 


Q. — Ilavt'  you  kt-pt  the  loj,'  of  llic 

—  1  iM'lit'Vl'  80. 

t^. — Have  ,voii  got  that  loft  hi'ic?  A. — Not  here,  it  is  in 
San  FrantiiHio.      I  did  not  bring  an.v  logs  licro  from  IMMit  up. 

ii. — Have  you  got  it  in  your  posst'ssion  and  I'outrol?  A. — 
Vcs,  sir. 

(■I. — Wiiat  was  hci-  tonnage?  A. — ir>4,  I  livlicvc.  It  may 
be  a  ton  or  two  nuu'c  or  Ii'mh. 

(i. — Vou  luivc  that  log?      A. — Yes,  Hir. 

(i.— And  it  can  b«'  obtained  before  this  <'onuni8sion.  either 
liere  or  in  San  Francisoo?      A. — Yc^,  sir. 

ii. — And  you  will  deliv(>r  it  here,  will  vou?  .\. — Vch.  sir, 
I  will. 

Q. — .\8  a  matter  of  faet,  did  you  deliver  stores  to  other  ves 
sels  that  year?      A. — I  did,  sir. 

().— To  what  amount?  A.— 1  cannot  exactly  say  to  what 
amount. 

Q. — Do  you  know  to  what  vessels?      A — Yes,  sir. 

(j. — What  vessels?  .\. — One  was  the  schooner  "Herman," 
the  other  the  schooner  ".Mexander,"  belonging  to  the  same 
employer. 

Q. — Did  you  keep  a  record  of  tl'em? 
tlie  record  of  it  here,  but  could  tind  t)Ut 
referring  to  the  ship's  agents.    I  gave  the 
came  to  San  Francisco. 

Q. — It  wont  appear  in  your  log?      .V..- 
will  appear  in  my  log. 

(i. — Who  was  the  ship's  agent  there? 

Q. — You  have  here  1(5  shotguns.  No. 
uuirked  at  #(15  each — was  that  the  amo; 
Thai  is  what  the  average  cost  of  the  guns  would  have  been 
Som  of  these  guns  would  run  all  the  way  from  ^'.W  up  to 
180.  They  were  second  hand  guns;  they  liad  been  used  one 
year  on  the  "Alexanfler." 

Q.— So  that  you  were  actually  paying,  then,  |(t5  for  .second- 
liand  guns?  A. — They  bebmged  to  the  same  tirm.  but  were 
taken  out  of  another  ship.  We  jdaced  a  vjilue  of  IftiS  on 
Ihem,  and  that  would  be  about  their  actual  cost  right  th(>re. 

y.-  And  the  boats  yon  charged  for  at  ¥1(K»  each?  A.— Yes. 
sir  they  were  extra  built  boats. 

(i. — Of  course,  there  is  no  doubt  about  that?  A. — Yes, 
sir;  (  xtra  built  boats;  it  was  a  new  improvement  that  was 
made  on  boats  the  year  before  that — in  lH!t4. 

Q.— And  I  see  you  had  !2  tons  of  salt?      -A.— Yes.  sir. 

ii. — Now,  yon  have  given  us  a  good  deal  of  evidence  here  as 
lo  the  value  <»f  vessels,  have  you  not?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— 1  was  much  struck  with  the  idea  that  you  must  be  a 
very  experienced  man  in  valuing  vessels.  In  the  first  place, 
you  went  through  the  names  of  all  the  vessels  you  could  think 
iif?      A.— I  suppose  so. 

(J.— You  stated  that  all  these  vessels  came  from  San  Fran- 
tisco.  the  most  of  them?      A. — At  that  time,  sir. 

(i.— As  a  matter  of  fact,  did  not  some  of  thest! 
vessels     that     you     named     as     coming     from     San     Fran- 


A. — I  have  iu)t  got 
in  San  Francisco  by 
amount  of  it  when  I 

-No.  I  don't  think  it 

A.— A.  r.  Lorantz. 
1(».  and  the  price  is 
int  .vou  paid?      A. — 


ongmallv 


lome       fr<mi       Nova       Scotia"; 


A.— 


(■n 


Ther 


1'  was  one 


or   two  from   San   Francisco.       The   "Lottie 


I'airfield" — she  came  up  here  and  afterwards  went   to  San 
l''ran<isco  and  was  sold.      She  made  one  year  hunting. 
Q.— I  do  not  say  only  from  Nova  Scotia— but  from  ])orTs 


of  tile  Eastern  coast  of  America'; 


A. — Y'es,  sir. 


(i.— -Ynd  how  many  were  there  from  the  eastern  coast  or 
tliese  vessels  that  you  named  as  coming  from  San  Francisco? 
\.— There  were  several  of  them,  I  guess,  coming  originally 
Inini  the  eastern  coast  up  to  San  Francisco. 


w 


0 


^fl^wli^" 


■^\%'Uu 


lO 


456 

(Ali'X.  McLciin — Cross.) 

Q. — I  nu'iiu  to  U8k  if  (hey  niiiie  iu'oiiihI  Uu-  Iluru?  A.— 
Vi'8,  sir. 

Q. — TluM'o  were  a  good  iiun>h<>r  of  such  vesBfls,  were  tlicro 
not?  A. — There  wen-  a  few — probably  there  wore  three  ov 
tour  of  them. 

Q. — We  will  perhafm  tlnd  a  litth'  more  than  that?  A. — 
Tliere  may  be. 

Q. —  If  tlie  AniericanH  could  l)iiy  veHHcls  so  clieaply  at  San 
Fraiicimo,  can  you  (ell  me  wliy  they  wi're  >?<'tlin};  llu'in 
aronnd  from  (lie  eastern  eoast?  A. — That  would  be  some 
years  af;o.  Some  of  these  vessels  would  come  out  as  survey 
boats  and  l)e  owned,  and  ]ierhapH  rebuilt  at  San  Francisco 
liefore  they  came  here. 

(i.— As  a  mater  of  fact,  in  IHSH,  ISSO,  and  1H!M>,  a  larffe 
number  of  vessels  came  around  from  the  eastern  coast?  A. 
— They  came  to  N'ictoria  liere,  and  a  cou]ile  came  to  San 
Francisco,  too. 
20  Q. — Only  two  of  them?  A. — Only  two  in  those  years. 
Two  was  all  I  can  remember. 

Q. — At  all  events,  a  Uwm'  nund)er  came  around  from  Nova 
Scotia  and  other  pans  of  the  eastern  coast?  A. — Yes,  sir, 
that  is,  in  ISSS  and  I.^W). 

Q. — And  these  were  boufrht  by  pretty  shrewd  business  men 
here,  were  they  not?  A. —  I  should  think  they  would  be. 
They  ou};ht  to  be  quiilitied  to  buy  a  «<hip  before  they  sent 
them  all  the  way  there  to  l>uy  them. 

Q. — And  you  liave  no  doultt  that  they  were  (inalitied?     A. 
30  — They  mijjht  be,  some  of  them. 

(i. — Now,  we  will  just  see  about  these  shijis.  The  "Mary 
Kllen"  came  from  San  Francisco?  She  was  built  on  this 
side,  was  she?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  the  "Theresa"?  A. — She  was  built  in  San  Fran- 
cisco. 

Q.— And  the  "Anna  Heck"?  A.— The  "Anna  Heck''  was 
built  in  the  I'nited  States,  what  part  I  do  not  know,  but  she 
came  from  San  Francisco  here. 

Q. — ran  you  say  whether  the  "Anna  Iteck"  was  built  on 
40  the  Fast  side  or  the  West  side  of  America.     A. — I  do  not 
know  what  side  of  America  she  was  built  on. 

Q. — You  do  not  know  anythinfj  about  her?  A. — I  know  of 
the  vessel,  and  have  been  on  board  of  her. 

Q. — You  do  not  know  whether  she  <'ame  from  some  part  of 
Massachussetts  or  not?  A. — 1  only  know  she  came  from  San 
Francisco. 

Q. — And  what  about  the  "Sierra"?  A. — She  was  an  Am- 
erican built  vessel. 

y. — What  part  of  America?     A. — San  Francisco,     I     be- 
5°  lieve. 

(2.— Will  you  sweai-  it?     A.— No,  sir. 

(i. — When  did  she  conu'  here?  A. — She  came  lu're  prob- 
ably in  1HS(!. 

(i. — \Vas  she  here?  A. — I  jfuess  she  was;  I  cannot  s.ny 
that  she  was  here  positively,  but  I  know  she  was  on  the 
American  .side. 

Q. — IMd  she  come  here  in  ISSO  or  1S87?  A. — I  believe  she 
was  liere  in  1SS(!. 

Q. — Will  you  swear  whether  she  was  here  in  iSSO  or  not? 
.\. — No,  sir;  I  will  not. 

(2. — Will  you  swear  she  was  here  in  1SS7?  A. — No;  I  can- 
not swear  to  that,  but  if  she  was  here  at  all.  she  was  here  in 

IRSO. 

Q. — Was  she  here  at  all?  A. — I  saw  her  at  sea,  and  saw 
the  master  of  her  here  in  1SS7. 

Q. — As  a  matter  of  fiict,  you  do  not  know  whether  she  was 
here  a1  all  or  not?     A. — I  cannot  swear  to  that  vessel. 


60 


45; 


10 


(Alex.  Mc!.<>an — Cross.) 

Q. — Tlic  "Han  .Ioh«>,"  where  wim  shi"  built?  A. — She  wn« 
built  in  Stiu  KranciHco. 

Q.— WuM  hIic  here  in  18H(>  or  1SH7?  A.— Hlic  wuh  here  in 
ISMT. 

(i.— Not  in  1HH(!?  A.— I  do  not  think  hIic  was  here  in 
]SH(!,  bccauHc  I  believe  hIiu  was  built  in  IHHI!.  and  her  first 
HeaKon  was  in  1SS7. 

ii. — How  do  .vou  know  she  was  built  in  Ran  Francisco? 
A. — She  was  built  close  to  San  Francisco.  I  saw  her  coniin;; 
in  and  came  u]>  the  Straits  with  her. 

i}. — Will  you  swear  she  was  here  in  1SS7?     .\. — I  think  so. 

i}. — Do  vou  swear  to  it?  A. — I  cannot  swear  to  it.  It 
nui.v  have  be<>n  in  May.  IHMS.  slie  came  here. 

il — Now,  Mr.  Mcliean.  I  do  not  want  to  take  .vou  at  any 

disadvanta)j;e.     Vou  have  ^one  through  a  lon^  list  of  ships, 

and  I  ask  you  if  you  did  not  swear  in  your  examination  that 

that  vessel  was  here  in  1HM7?     A. — I  will  swear  she  was  here 

,Q  in  IHSH,  because  1  was  ujt  the  Straits  with  her. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — On  direct  examination,  this  witness  was 
not  asked  whether  a  Ion};  list  of  shii)s  came  to  Victoria  or  not. 
The  testinnmy  went  to  show  that  they  were  fitted  out  for 
.'■••ealinn  vessels,  and  it  was  not  that  they  came  to  Victoria. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  have  the  rl^ht  to  find  ont  whether  they  did 
or  not. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Yes;  luit  you  slated  a  moment  afjo  that 
^Q  this  witness  in  his  direct  testimony  stated  that  these  ships 
•^     came  here  in  1.SSC.  or  1H87. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  did  so  understand  his  evidence — 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  want  to  correct  you  on  that.  The  point 
was  in  the  examination  that  these  vessels  were  fitted  out  for 
sealers  In  San  Francisco,  and  not  thai  they  came  iiere. 

Mr.  Peters: — My  learned  friend  asked  first  about  n  list  of 
vessels  and  then  he  asked  about  a  list  of  vessels  whidi  chanji- 
40  ed  hands).     1  am  referrinfj  to  the  first  one  now. 

(To  witness):  This  vessel  was  not  here  to  your  knowledge 
in  ISSCi?  A.— No,  I  believe  that  it  was  in  May.  1S8S.  that  I 
tiist  saw  her  here.  1  came  up  the  Straits  in  companv  with 
lier. 

(2.— Is  that  the  first  you  saw  of  her— May.  1HS8?  A.— 
That  was  the  first  I  kiu'W  of  her.  Of  course,  she  was  built 
before  that.  Init  that  was  the  first  I  saw  of  her. 

(■i. — You  never  knew  her  before?  A. — I  don't  believe  I  had 
^o  seen  her. 

Q. — Was  she  in  the  sealiufj  business  or  not?  A. — I  do  not 
liiiow  that  she  was  out  in  18JS7,  but  I  know  that  she  was  out 
in  1888. 

Q. — You  do  not  know  if  she  was  in  the  sealing  business  in 
1S88?      A.— She  was  in  the  sealiufj  business  in  18H8. 

Q. — The  "San  Diego"  was  the  one  you  were  in?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q. — Was  she  here  in  lS8(i?  A. — I  cannot  exactly  say  she 
was  in  here,  but  she  was  in  the  sealing  business. 

Q. — She  was  actually  engaged?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— The  "San  Diego"  was  actually  seized  in  1880?  A.— 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  therefore  was  not  in  the  market  to  be  bought  by 
Mr.  Munsie?  A. — I  believe  she  was  released  and  sold  after- 
wards. 

Q. — T  have  here  a  list  made  ont  by  Mr.  Milne  purporting  to 
l>e  a  list  of  schooners  at  N'ictoria  suitable  for  sealint,  busi- 
ness in  1880  or  1887. 


60 


IMAGE  EVALUATION 
TEST  TARGET  (MT-3) 


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rhotographic 

Sdences 

Corporation 


23  WIST  MAIN  STRUT 

wnSTIR.N.Y.  I4SM 

(716)I79-4S03 


f 


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'ljiM>n, 


5^ 


4S8 


(Ah'x.  McLenii — Cross.) 


Tbe  Coniinismonor 
Itritish  v(>hs(>Ih. 

Mr.  IVt(M"8: — Y«'H. 


on   the   part   of   \\w    I'liitod    States: — 


The  Commissionor  on  tho  part  of  tlu>  I'niti'd  Ktatos: — That 
is  a  158t  of  vessels  re^^istorcd  at  Victoria? 

Mr.  IN'ter."*: — Chared  from  Victoria, 
lo 

Mr.  Dicliinson: — But  liritisli  vessels. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  am  Hiin]il,v  asliin^'  him  to  looli  over  that 
list  and  to  answer  the  i|uestion  whether  there  were  an.v  oth- 
er Kritish  vessels  at  VictiH'ia  at  that  time  that  Im'  kno'Ws  of 
outside  of  that  list  (list  refern-d  to  Kxhibit  Hi.  <}.  \\.  ••Caro- 
lena"  case.)?  A.— That  is  as  was  owned  here? 

Q.— Hritish  vessels  at  N'ictoria?     A.— There  w  is  one  Hiil 
ish  vessel  called  the  "L«»ttie  Fairti»'ld"  and  I  do  not  see  hei- 
20  in  that  list. 

Q.— What  size  was  she?     A.— AlM»ut   H»4  tons,  I  think. 

Q. — When  was  she  emplo.ved  in  the  sealing  business?  A. 
—In  1887. 

Q.— rp  to  18H(i  and  int-ludinfj  1MS«  were  any  vessels  of  the 
tonnage  of  the  "I^ottie  Fairfield"  employed  in  sealing?  A.  - 
No,  sir. 

Q.— When  did  you  first  begin  to  employ  su<'h   large  ves 
sola?      A. — That  was  the  largest  vessels  that   we  employed 
up  to  that  time  that  I  know  of. 
30       Q. — Even  now?      \. — There  must  he  large  vessels  now. 

Q. — What  is  the  size  of  the  largest  vessel  they  employed 
in  the  business  then?  A. — We  emjtloy  vessels  at  the  pre 
sent  time  from  about  21)0  tons  to  :UIO  tons. 

Q. — But  I  am  asking  you  another  question,  originally  they 
did  not  employ  large  vess«»ls?  A. — No.  sir.  they  used  t«» 
have  at  that  time  about  80  ton  vessels. 

Q.— The  "FiOtiie  Fairfield"  was  not  sealing  in  1880?  A.— 
\o.  sir,  she  was  in  1887.  she  was  offered  for  sale  in  188r(. 

Q. — That  is  rhe  only  British  vessel  that  you  remeniber  at 
^     present?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — So  that  this  list,  exhibit  16,  is  practically  complete 
with  the  exception  of  the  "Lottie  Fairfield?"  A. — I  suppose 
it  is. 

Q. — You  believe  it  to  be  do  you  not??  A. — I  believe  it  is. 
I  did  not  keep  a  complete  record  of  all  vess«'l8  that  were 
here  at  that  time. 

Q. — Now  I  just  want  \»  read  you  the  list  of  vessels  and 
see  whether  I  do  not  give  you  a  complete  list  of  tlu'  Ameri 
can  sealing  vessels  that  were  employed  in  180G.  Do  you 
remember  the  names  yon  gave  us  on  Saturday  last?  .\. — 1 
do  not  suppose  I  would  reiin'mber  them  all.  but  1  might  re 
member  some  of  them  if  I  heard  them. 

Q. — Do  yon  remember  any  American  vessels  Hint  wer«'  en 
gaged  in  sealing  in  1880?      \. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Name  some  of  them?  A.— There  was  the  "Alexand 
er"  and  the  "Vanderbilt." 

Q. — I  will  read  you  these  names  and  you  will  say  if  they 
are  right.      There  was  the  ".Mexand«'r?"      A. — Y<'s.  sir. 
Co       Q.— And  the  "Allie  1.  Alger."  was  she  there  in  1880?       \. 
—1  think  1887  w.is  her  first  year. 

Q. — Rhe  was  not  there  in  1886,  that  is  your  o]»inion?  .\.— 
1  do  not  think  so,  but  1  l<e])t  no  record  of  the  dates  and  years. 
and  so  on  with  regard  to  these  vessels. 

Q. — Do  von  remember  the  "Annie?"      A. — She  was  sealing 

Q.— Tn  1886?      A.— 1  cannot  say  as  for  1880. 

Q.— .*nd  the  "f^mrles  fi.  Wilson?"  .\.— She  has  Iwen  seal 
lag. 


10 


459 

(Ah'X.  McLean— Cross.) 

(j.— In  1SS«}?      A. — 1  mnnot  my  ua  lo  that. 
Q.— The  "Cit.v  of  Han  Dieyo?"       A.— Yes,  sir. 
Q.— Hhe  was  in  1«8«-      A.— Yes,  sir. 
(i.— The  "Helen  liluni?"      A.— Yes.  sir. 
Q.— The  "lianra?"      A.— Yes,  sir. 
Q.— The  "LooJjout?"      A.— Yes,  sir, 
Q.— The  "Otter?"      A.— Yes,  sir. 
g.— Tlie  "San  Diego?"      A.— Yes.  sir. 
Q.— The  "Sylvia  Handy?"      A.— Yes.  sir. 
().— (.'onld  you  name  any  other  one  in  lS8fi?  A.— There  was 
the  "Vanderbilt"  I  think. 

Q. — Will  you  swear  that  she  was  ?  A.— 1  rannot  swear 
if  she  was  out  for  tliat  ye;ir  or  not.  but  1  met  her  at  sea. 

Q.— I  am  talking  of  the  year  \HHk\.      W'm  thei-e  any  other 
vessel  than  those  I  have  named  sealinf;?      A. — I  have  not 
>fot  a  list  of  them  for  1880. 
Q.— Can  you  name  any  others?      A. — I  cannot  name  any 
20  other  at  present  sir. 

Q. — In  188fi  as  a  matter  of  fact  did  not  a  good  many  of  the 
Ncssels  that  went  out  ro  otter  huntin{;  more  than  seal  hunt- 
inR?  A. — Some  of  them  were  otter  hnniing  and  some  seal 
hunting. 

g. — \Vas  not  the  chief  business  of  some  of  them  otter  hunt- 
ing?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

(j. — In  1887  the  number  of  vessels  in  H(>al  hunting  increas- 
ed tt  good  deal?      A. — Y'^es,  1  believe  so. 
Q. — Where  did  the  chief  bulk  of  Uie     American     vessels 
30  come  from  that  were  hunting  seals?       A. — Prom  ditTen*nt 
.  aces.      Some  of  them  came  from  Japan. 

Q. — And  wliere  els*'?  A. — Some  of  tliem  I  supp<»8e  «'arie 
from  San  Francisco. 

Q. — Hid  any  of  them  come  round  the  Horn?  A. — In  188" 
I  do  not  think  so.  1  do  not  believe  there  were  any  came 
around  in  1887. 

Q. — In  1888,  there  were  not  so  many  engaged,  1  believe, 
in  m'al  hunting?      A. — Yes,  there  were  some  vessels  came 
iiere  in  1888. 
Q. — Wher«*  from?      A.— Prom  the  eastern  provinces. 
Q. — Did  they  come  from  San  Prancisco  loo?      A. — 1  think 
so. 

Q.— In  1889  the  "Lottie"  came  around  the  Tlorn?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Now,  yo)i  said  you  had  a  good  deal  to  do  with  the  sale 
iif  vessels  aiid  that  you  sold  several  vessels.  I  have  the 
names  of  them  lure  that  von  said  you  sold,  and  I  ask  you  if 
von  yourself  had  something  to  do  with  the  selling  of  some 
vcHsels?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

i}. — Ifow  many  vesselH  had  you  actually  to  do  with  the 
siile  of?      A. — I  have  Imh'U  int«'reste«l  in  (linH'  vessels. 

(J. — You  had  something  to  do  with  th«'  selling  and  buying 
of  three  vessels?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Outside  of  that  had  you  anything  to  do  with  the  pur- 
ilins*'  or  sale  of  a  vwsel?  A. — Not  here,  excepting  them 
llii-ce. 

iy — Had  you  anywhere  else  excej>t  here?  \. — I  had  In 
Sun  Francisco. 

Q. — What  vessels  did  you  buy  in  San  Fmncisco?    ,\. — f 
inspected  vesHels  for  other  parties. 
<i. — How  many?     .\. — I  think  three  or  four. 
*i. — What  veKs«>ls  were  tliev?     \. — The  ".Limes  HaniiHon 
1. 1 'Wis." 
<>.— Was  hIm'  n  sealer?    A. — Yes.  sir 

U. — The  other  was  the  steamer  ".Mexander."  was  she  n 
^litliT?     A.— Yes.  sir. 

<i. — The  other  was  the  schooner  "Honnn/.a."   was 
s.;il,.i?     A.— Yes.  sir. 


40 


;o 


C 


jl;': 


I  .ill 

mil 


} 


'■rii; 


rf]['!!^''f 

''[: 

/'   i 
■    ;   ^  I.  ' 

UIMi 


lO 


20 


40 


50 


60 


460 

( A  h'X.  M  V I  it'll  II — CfoHH.) 
Q. — Tlit'Bt'  an-  llu'  llirci'  vi'mwIb  .you  liiH|»t'ct(Hl?    A. — Y 


-Fi 


■i.i- 


Ilaniiltoii 


sir. 

Q. — IM«I  ,v<»ii  iiuiki'  a  bargain  for  thi'  piirchaHf? 
oni'  of  tlii'iu. 

(J. — Only  on«'  of  tlu'in?    A. — Ych,  sir. 

Q.— Wliitli    oiii'?    A.— That    was    tlu'    ".loliii 
LfwiH." 

y.— Wlifii  waH  tlint?    A.— In  ISIKI.  I  tliink. 

Q. — And  llic  olhcr  vchwIh  you  miiiply  inHiMM-lotl  to  sec 
wlu'tlu'r  tlH'.v  wt'if  Htiitablc  vt-nwls  or  not?  A. — Y«'h.  Mir.  to 
mi»  if  tlu'.v  wcrt'  worth  tlu«  iiioncy  askod  for  them. 

y. — \V«'r»'  <h('H»'  ohi  or  lU'W  vi'kwIh?  \. — Koine  of  IIh'ih 
were  up  In  ycarB. 

(J. — Wliat  «lo  yon  i-all  ii])  in  years?  •\. — ('lose  on  lo 
twenty. 

y. — Weiv  any  of  them  new?     A. — No,  Hir.  not  one. 

Q. — What  wiiH  tlie  yoiinfjoNt  of  lliem?  A. — Tlie  yoiiiifri-st 
would  liave  been  at  that  time  aliout  Heveii  or  ei^lil  vt-arw 
old. 

Q.— And  tluH  was  in  1S!»((?     A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Yoii  had  nttthiiiK  to  do  with  llu'  buying  of  veHsels  for 
any  other  ihtkoiih  in  ISSfi?    .\. — No,  sir. 

Q.— Nor  in  1HH7?     A.— Not  in  1HS7. 

Q. — Yon  have  spoken  speeificially  of  <»ne  or  two  v<  s.^els. 
take,  for  instance,  the  "Mountain  rhi«'f,"  whieh     y(Mi     sitid 
had  ehanfred  hands.     I  think  you  said  the  price  of  her  was 
|5II().     IIow  do  yini  know  the  juice?     .\. — I  heard  it  as  com 
30   mon  report  at  the  time. 

Q. — As  a  iiiatt«T  of  common  rumor?     .\. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — As  a  matter  of  fact  that  was  a  vessel  built  by  the 
Siwashes,  was  it  not?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

ii. — And  without  any  trained  \v<M'kmen?  A. — There  mi};lit 
have  b«H'n  trained  workmen  there,  but  I  cannot  say. 

Q. — Mlie  was  a  very  small  vessel?  A. — Y«'H,  she  was  a 
small  vessel. 

Q. — \Yhat  was  she  used  for  aft«'r  she  was  sold?  A. — She 
was  used  for  seal  linntinK. 

Q. — After  she  was  sold?  A. — Yes,  s(al  hunting;  and  coast- 
inp. 

y. — Y(ni  s|M>ke  of  the  "Mary  Kllen"  as  beint;  sold  some 
time  between  1SH4  and  1SS(».  IIow  do  you  know  anything; 
about  that?  A. — Onefourlh  intei-est  in  her  was  sold  to  my 
br<»ther,  Dan  McLean. 

Q.— NVhen  was  that?     A.— That  was  in  tho  fall  of  ISS:!. 

(J. — And  lu'  bought   her  for  sealing?     A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — At  that  time  sealing;  was  not  so  much  eiif^af^ed  in  as 
in   18S(i?     A. — No.  there  was  some  local 
here. 

y. — ^Yhen  did  von  first  see  tlu 

188:{. 

i}. — And  the  \Y.  V.  Sayward,  that  was  sold.  IIow  do  yon 
know  anything  about  that?  \. — Mr.  Lainj;,  the  owner  of  her 
at  the  time  told  me. 

Q.— I  think  that  von  snid  that  that 


huntiii|{     outside 
'Marv     Ellen"?    A.— In 


one 


-H. 


,. broujiht  |«.0(M>? 

A. — I  believ*'  half  of  her  was  transferred  for  |.1,<»(l(). 

Q. — You  believe  It.  but   do  you  sjiy  it   is  rifjht?     .\. 
told  me  so  himself,  Mr.  Lain);  did. 

Q. — \Yhat  do  yon  know  about  the  sale  of  the  "Kate"?    .\. 
— Part  of  her  was  sold  in  1H84. 

Q. — I>o  yon  know  that?    A.— Yt*,  sir,  one-third  of  her. 

Q. — How  do  you  know?     .\. — Itt'cause  I  owned  an  inteifsi 
In  one-third  of  her. 

(i.— In  1SM4?     A.— Yes,  in  the  fall  of  i8S4. 

Q.— \Yas  she  sold  in   IHHfi?     .\.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  sell  her  then?      A. — My  interest,  yes.  sir. 


10 


461 

(Ah'x.  .Mfl^can — <  'roMH.) 

ly — 1>«»  voii  know  iinytliiiiK  about  tin*  mik*  of  the  "Alfirtl 
AtltiniH?    A. — 8lu'  WHH  Hold  lien*. 

(i. — What  do  you  kuow  about  it?  A. — I  dou't  kuow  the 
ti(;un»8. 

il. — And  .voH  Bay  thait  you  did  not  know  tin*  Ajjuiti*  for  tin* 
•'lllafk  Diamond,"  and  the  ''.Inanita''  and  the  "Triumph" 
sold  for  IS.OOO  or  |i!).<M>0?  A.-I  Itelieve  that  in  dow  to  the 
llfjurt'K. 

ii. — How  do  you  know  about  that'    A. — Don  Mt'Lean  told 

IIM'. 

Q. — That   iH  your  brother?     A. — Y<'h.  sir. 


The  Commissioner  on  the  |)art  of  tlu»     I'niled 
Wliat  was  tlie  tonnnj;e  «tf  the  "Triumph"? 


8tat"H:— 


20 


30 


40 


Witness: — t'lose  to  MM!,  she  might  be  a  few  tons  less. 

The  < 'ommissioner  on  the  juirt  of  the  I'nited  Htates: — 
NViien  was  she  sold?    A. — 1  think  it  was  in  18SU,  sir. 

Q.— You  say  that  the  "l.illie  L. '  was  sold  in  18H7,  liow  d(» 
von  knt)w  that?  A. — I  saw  the  owner  from  San  Fraueim-o 
iit  tile  time. 

il. — Was  she  an  Ameriean  vi-ssel?     A. — Yes. 

Q. — Where  was  she  sold?     A. — Hold  in  San  Franeiseo. 

12. — .\nd  y«>u  only  kuow  from  what  you  were  told?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

(i.— He  told  you  that?    A.— Yes,  sir, 

il — After  the  sale?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  know  nothin}:^  about  it  of  your  own  knowledge? 
A.— That  is  about  all. 

H. — And  this  sale  took  place  in  San  Francisco?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q. — Do  you  know  anything  ntiout  the  "Penelope?"'  A. — 
Yes,  I  have  bwu  aboard  the  ship. 

li. — Do  von  know  anvthing  about  her  sjile?      A. — No,  sir. 

(i.— Nor"  the  "Theresa?"      A.— No,  sir. 

(i. — There  is  a  vessel  (-ailed  the  "Active,"  what  do  you 
know  about  her?      A. — She  was  sold  here  the  Inst  1  knew. 

ii. — WIh'H  was  she  ^old?  A. — W«'ll,  I  think  it  was  some- 
where in  'H5  or  'S(!. 

(i.— How  much  for  did  you  s<iy?      A.— For  |:W(M». 

ii. — Do  you  wiy  it  was,  or  that  you  believe  it  was?  A. — 
Tliat  it  was,  the  owner  told  me,  sir. 

(i.— Who  was  the  owiu-r?       .\. — Thomas  Herald. 

(}. — And  did  you  we  her  at  that  time?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

iy — Was  she  going  on  a  voyage,  or  coming  from  a  voyage? 
A. — .\t  that  time  he  brought  lier  here,  and  wantJHl  to  sell 
I  lie  vessel. 
■'"       (i.— What  time  of  the  year  was  it?       A. — I  guess  it  was 
the  winter  season. 

(i. — This  you  heard  from  the  owner?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

i}. — Outside  of  the  sales  you  actually  made  yourself,  have 
von  any  personal  knowledge  of  any  «me  sale?  A. — Of  course 
xcssi'ls  were  sold. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  Cnited  States: — Now, 

Mr.  Witness,  since  I   spoke  to  you  we  have  got  along  very 

iiirely  indeed.      The  not«'s    ar«'    becoming    trenu'ndous.    and 

^'(1   wlien  you  see  a  <piestion  that  can  be  answered  by  yes  or  no, 

please  answer  it  in  that  way. 

((^lestitni   re|H'ated.) 

A. — No.  sir.  Haven't  any  personal  knowledge;  I  haven't 
xeen  the  money  paid. 

t^. — Were  you  (nt'sent  at  any  one  case  at  the  bargain  ex 
ii'pl  wliere  you  were  yourself  interested?      A. — No,  sir. 

t^.— In  sailing  from  lu-re  to  Itehring  Sea    in    any    one   of 


•i 


■  4 


:/ 


il    ■ 


V, 


"m 


lO 


20 


30 


462 

(Al«*x.  MrLcaii — Ciohb.) 

thi'Bc  v«'8Hel«,  IIh'  "Miiry  KlU-n,"  tin-  '•Favourit*',"  or  the 
"ItonuiiKU,"  what  (rudiiiK  ixmtB  would  ,voii  cull  at  l>cfort>  ,voii 
Kot  to  HehriiiK  Hi-u,  or  would  .v<»u  call  at  any?  A.— Hand 
I'oint,  Chuniii-kt'ii  iHlaiidH,  AhiHka. 

y. — WfiM'  tln'w  ditrcivnt  pfople  who  had  (radliiK  plact-s 
there?      A. — Yen,  nlr. 

Q. — Would  you  call  at  any  others?  A.— At  AIIIhc  Huy, 
AluHka. 

Q. — Any  other?      A. — No,  wlr. 

Q. — Ih  there  when'  you  took  on  your  fndiauH?  A. — \o, 
sir. 

y.— You  took  them  on  where?  A. — On  tln'  west  eouHt  of 
Vancouver  iMland. 

Q. — In  the  trip  of  the  "HonnnKa"  did  you  call  at  any  of 
thoHO  placet*,  and  whlcli  of  tlieni?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q.— Did  you  call  at  any  place?      A.— Yen.  h\v. 

Q.— >Vliere?      A.— Yokohama  and  Hakodate. 

Q. — \Vould  you  require  to  jjet  rid  of  any  of  your  proviHiouH 
ut  either  of  tliowe  pluctH?     \. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — ^Vhat  kind  of  provisiouH?       A. — Canned  meats. 

Q. — \Vhat,  sell  (hem  then-?  A.— Xo.  sir;  transfer  from 
our  vessel  to  another  vessel;  I  couldn't  exactly  state  the 
umount. 

Q. — Did  you  ke<'p  an  account  of  all  this?      A.— Yes.  sir. 

Q. — And  that  is  at  Han  Franrlsro?      A. — Y<'s,  sir. 

Q. — Is  that  an  account  with  the  same  man  y«»u  8p«»ke  of 
before?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — IHd  you  take  in  any  more  stuff  at  those  places?  A.— 
No,  sir.  I  may  have  taken  some  fresh  meats  probably,  and 
vegetables  for  the  cww. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Do  the  trading  stations  you  sp«'ak  of  refer 
to  Vancouver  Island? 


Mr.  Peters: — No.  tniding  posts  on  the  way  up  to  Itehrint; 
Sea.      Ho  mentioned  two. 

40       Mr.  Dickinson  to  witness: — You  did  not  refer  to  trading; 
stations  ou  this  island?      A. — No,  sir. 


'«ji<i(t.i 


50 


60 


Mr.  Peters: — Now,  Mr.  McLean,  you  made  s(une  affldavi<H 
heri'tofore  in  this  matter?  A. — Y'es,  sir;  I  liavi'  made  some 
affidavits. 

Q. — You  made  an  affidavit  which  is  found  in  the  third  vol 
ume  of  the  American  ri-print.  pag«'  4'.W.  I  want  t«»  see  if 
you  remember  this  is  what  you  sai«l:  "Hav<>  you  be«'n  master 
of  vessels  thus  engaged,"  that  is  in  sealing,  and  your  answer 
was,  "I  have  been  nine  years  in  the  sealing  business?"  A.— 
Y«  '*,  sir. 

Q. — "What  time  of  the  year  do  you  generally  start  out 
sealing  in  the  Paciti*'?"  .\. — "We  varied  always  from  tlie 
11th  of  January  to  the  lltli  of  February.  "When  do  yon 
call  the  H(>ason's  catch  over?"  A. — ".\bout  the  lltli  of  Sep 
tember,  alMtut  a  month  later.  I  usually  get  back  about  tlic 
llth  of  Hepteml»er."  Is  that  (he  statement  you  nmde?  A. — I 
couldn't  «>xactly  say  I  madi>  that  statement;  I  may  have. 
If  I  nuide  that,  sir,  i(  is  coriiM-t. 

Q. — Februarv  I,  1S!)2.  was  when  vou  made  that  statenionT? 
A.— Y«>s.  sir. 

(J. — .\nd  (hat  was  correc(.  was  i(?  .\. — Yes,  sir,  I  s.ip 
pose  that  was  correct. 

The  Tommissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  Htates:— T>o«'s 
(hat  last  s(atement  (end  (o  contradict  (he  witness  in  any 
wav? 


10 


20 


30 


4^3 
lAli'X.   Mrl^'flii — i 'roHH — K<>-«1if«>ct.) 

Mr.  IS'tt'i-H: — I  think  il  d«M«H.  to  mIiow  Ih'  tried  to  iniiltc  tin- 
wHHon  i-loH<'  out  tli«'  20tli  «>f  AuifiiHt,  wliilo  tlu'rc  lie  hii.vh  (lit* 
11th  of  H»'pt«'inh««r. 

The  ('oiiiiiiiHHioncr  on  tlic  ptirt  of  the  I'nitcd  Htat«>H: — II«> 
wi.vH  h(>  |;ot  biuk  tlic  lltli  of  H<>]»t(MiilH'r.  It  nia.v  In>  under- 
Htood  to  Im*  Btflted  twtth  wayn,  but  he  flnnlly  snid  he  got  buck 
the  llth  of  Hepteniber. 

(i. — I  want  to  call  your  attention  to  another  nfOdavit  you 
made  in  Volunii-  7  of  tlie  Anierlran  Ite|trint,  page  ^45,  an  fol- 
Iowh:  "WaH  ou"  of  tlie  nioHt  HUceeHMful  en(;af;ed  in  the  buRi- 
iu'Br;  have  been  ui  Itehrint;  Hea  every  HeaHon  Hln«'i'  \HH'2;  the 
liiintinK  Heanon  be^iuH  in  KehriuR  8ea  the  fore  part  of  July 
iind  ends  the  hiMt  of  Aufrunt."  Ih  that  rorreet?  A. — Yes, 
Kir. 

Mr.  I'eterH  rontinueH  reading  fron:  aflidavit:  "I  entered  Ueh- 
liiiK  Sea  tliree  yearn  in  HueeeHHiou  on  July  4th,  and  UHually 
ranie  out  August  2ri(h,  at  which  time  (he  ttcason  practically 
lioHes."      Ih  that  correct?      A. — Yea,  Hir. 

Mr.  IN'terH: — ThiB  aftldavit  wan  made  on  the  7th  of  Octo- 
ber. 1M1>2. 

To  witneHH: — I  wish  to  call  your  attention  to  another  atate- 
iiu'ut,  as  followH:  "The  venael  furnighea  the  anppliea,  but  it 
coHtH  only  about  <m(*-half  to  aubaiat  an  Indian  crew  that  it 
(loeH  a  white  crew,  for  the  Indiana  live  chiefly  on  the  fleah  of 
tlie  Heal  and  hard  br-ead.  S<>alinK  veHw>la  are  lifted  out  in 
February  for  an  eifjht  niontliH*  voyage."  Q. — la  that  right? 
.\. — Yea,  air. 

(2. — What  year  does  that  refer  to?  A. — That  would  re- 
fer to  1888. 

Q. — When  did  you  change  the  time  of  fitting  out?  A. — 
Well.  lM>tw«»en  18S7  and  1888,  I  auppoae.  beeauae  formerly  the 
Indiana  UHcd  to  fe«>d  theniaelrea,  and  after  that  we  began 
fiHHling  the  Indiana. 

Q.— The  length  of  the  cruiae?  A.— Well,  firat  when  I 
wi'ut  out  we  UHcd  to  atart  from  here  in  March,  the  12th  of 
March.  I  think;  the  aeanon  waa  ahorter  then. 

Q. — Then  you  commence*!  in  February?       A. — Yea.  air. 

Q.— That  wart  in  1888?  A.— Yea,  air.  And  Inter  on  I 
have  been  going  out  in  January. 

Kedirect  examination  by  Mr.  Oickinaon: 

Q. — Now,  Mr.  McU'an,  you  were  aaked  if  you  had  b«H'n  in 
ItriHon?      A. — Yea,  air. 
;o      ti.^.\nd  you  aaid  that  you  were  arreated,  I  think,  in  Nova 
Scotia?      .\. — Yea,  air. 

(i. — Will  you  please  tell  now  what  it  waa  for?  A. — For 
licing  into  a  row;  a  atreet  row. 

Q. — Some  one  inaultiMl  you  and  you  whipped  him,  I  hope. 
Tliat  waa  about  what  it  w.»»?  A. — n«>ing  inaulted,  of  couree 
I  liitd  to  protect  myself. 

il — How  long  were  you  detaine<l?  A. — Once  I  waa  de- 
tained for  Mix  houra  and  another  time  for  thr<>e. 

Q. — Were  you  put  in  jail  at  all?      A. — Well,  I  waa  put  In 
C,n  jail  for  tliree  houra  in  San  Franciaco 

H. — Hut  thia  time  in  Nova  Scotia?  A. — Yea,  air,  T  was 
taken  bv  an  otVaer. 

Q. — Were  y«»u  c<»nvicted  of  aaaanit  and  battery?  A. — Yea, 
sir. 

^■i' — .Vnd  sentenced  to  aix  houra'  inipri8onm<>nt?      A. — Yea, 

sir. 

Q.— Waa  that  the  aubatance  t.;  it  in  Nova  Scotia?  A.-— 
Yes,  air. 


40 


''  tfi 


^      ' 


fllf:;  ■■ 
I 

r 
■P 


) 

f 

• ;  i 

1     1  i 

i          i  ' 

ipmrr-np- 


^ijlMni. 


lO 


20 


3«^ 


40 


50 


60 


464 

(Ali'X.  M«[<<'iiii — rroHH — Ki>'<liri'ft.) 

Q. — And  iiiiullu'r  tiino,  I  tliiuk  >oii  Huid,  yuu  wuru  dt'diiucU 
bc'cauae  .yuu  wun*  uwuy  fruiu  ^uiir  uliip  witliuiit  Iciivo?  A. — 
Tliut  WiiH  tlie  Huiiii'  tiiiu>.  Tli(>y  hciU  fur  tlii>  t-hiof  ofllf«*r  of 
tilt'  Hlii|t.  I  left  tilt'  ship  iiud  v'vnt  iiHliorc  without  lilM>rt,v, 
and  then*  wert>  two  wutelu'M,  port  and  iitarlMiai'd  wati'lifH, 
and  till'  watch  went  :tHhort>  that  <-/i>nini;  |liat  1  didn't  belong; 
to.  I  wanted  to  gvt  aHliore  that  «>v('nlng  for  Home  piirpoHc, 
and  when  I  was  k<><i>K  alMtard  the  Hhiji  again  about  11  o'el(i«-l< 
in  the  evening  i  hap]M-ned  to  get  into  a  row  with  a  nnin  and 
1  waH  loelied  up. 

Q. — What  wan  done  about  your  leaving  the  ship  without 
leave?  .\. — The  oftteer  he  ap|M'ared  and  made  a  report  tlint 
I  left  the  Hhip  without  lilH>rty. 

Q. — And  yuu  weiv  not  detained  or  puuiHhed  for  that?  .\. 
— No,  Hir. 

(i. — Were  you  ever  imprisoned  for  any  other  olTenee  in  No- 
va Heotia?      A.— No,  sir. 

Q. — And  your  whole  Hentence  was  six  liourH?  .\. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q. — You  t«»ld  3'onr  story  in  court  at  the  time,  didn't  you? 
A.— Yen.  nir.  I  told  the  truth. 

Q. — Referring  to  the  trouble  at  San  Franciwo.  the  newH- 
)Mi)N'rH  say  you  have  been  in  jail  and  imin-iHoned  tlirtv  or  four 
times.  Now  we  will  see  whether  a  witness  is  to  be  abused 
like  this.  Tell  ns  about  the  Han  Francisco  trouble?  A. — 
Got  into  a  stre.'t  fight  in  Han  Francim'o. 

Q.— A  sailors'  fight?      A.— Yes.  sir. 

v/. — What  iM'came  of  that?  A. — We  were  arrested  and 
detained  for  three  Iiourg. 

Q. — Were  vou  sentenced  to  jail?  A. — I  was  talien  to  jail 
by  an  officer. 

Q. — Refore  or  after  th(»  trial?      A. — n«'fore  the  trial. 

Q. — .\nd  were  yon  acquitted  at  the  triai?      A. — Acquitted. 

Q. — And  you  were  in  jail,  then,  pending  the  trial?  A. — 
Pending  the  trial,  but  1  was  released  on  l)ail. 

Q. — And  then  you  were  promptly  discharged  and  held  not 
guilty?      A.— Not  guilty. 

Q. — Now,  are  thes<»  tlie  only  times  you  hnv«>  been  imi»riH 
oned?  A. — That  is  tlie  only  time  1  Icnow  of.  Of  course  I 
was  detained  some  ytnirs  ag(»  in  Itussia,  but  1  was  not  im- 
prisoned. 

Q. — Tluit  was  for  s<>aling  in  Uussian  waters?  A. — Yes, 
sir.  Iiad  Imm'U  s«'ized  tliere. 

Q. — But  you  wen*  not  put  in  jaiiV      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — And  was  released?  A  — And  released.  Of  course  1 
was  detained;  I  couldn't  leave  'lie  country  for  a  certain  tinw. 

Q. — But  you  never  had  a  triai?      A. — Never  had  a  trial. 

Q. — And  were  never  convict«'d»      A. — Never  convict<-d. 

(i. — And  your  vessel  was  8«'i7.ec'  at  the  same  time?  A.  - 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  get  away  finally  with  your  vessel?  A. — No, 
sir. 

Q. — TIk'v  icept  the  vessel?      A. — Kept  the  vc'ssel.  sir. 

Q._Forfeited  it?      A.— Forfeited  it. 

Q. — Was  there  any  clinrge  against  you  except  for  seaiiii,; 
in  Russian  waters?      A. — No.  sir. 

Q. — Now  is  there  any  other  jiiace  in  your  life  where  you 
were  put  in  prison?       A. — No,  sir. 

Q._Or  charged  with  any  offences?  A.— No,  sir:  no  other 
place. 

Q. — Were  you  ever  complained  of  for  any  offence  agnins* 
the  laws  of  any  country  except  those  you  liave  stated?  A. 
— No,  sir. 

Q. — Now,  Tapfain,  just  befon*  the  direct  exniniiintion 
closed,  you  spoke  ut  nut  visiting  any  trading  posts  <ni  your 


IJ 


i<> 


465 

(Ah'X.  Mi-I.«>)iii— l(«Mlii-tM't.) 

wiiy  ii|*.  I>i<l  y<t»  iiiHlcrMtaiul  tliat  Mr.  IN'Iim-h  wiih  rt'ft'i-riiiK 
to  tradiii};  poHtM  in  AliiHka?  A. — I  undoi-Htuud  liiui  to  rcfor 
to  tnitliiiK  |H>Htd  ill  Alauiva,  Hir. 

Q. — Now,  ,voii  (lid  <-ali  nt  ti-adiiiK  poHtH  on  tlii>  iMland  up 
lu'rt',  did  you  iitt?      A. — Yew.  HJr. 

t^. — You  liad  HoiiH'  jourwlf.  did  yon  not?  A. — Yi'h,  sir; 
liiid  (lint'  tnidiii^;  H(or«-H  <»n  lli«'  roaMt  of  N'ancouvfr  iHlaiid. 

Q. — Was  (liat  wlu'n  .vou  yvvrv  in  tlu'  "llonanza?"  A. — No, 
Hir;  wlifn  I  wan  on  flic  Favouritf." 

Q. — Now  tliiM  bt>ok  which  liaii  liven  ref(>rri>d  to  in  the  diriM-t 
rxaiiiinaliitn.  I  do  not  |)ro|M>Ni>  to  hav<>  it  ^o  into  tin*  niiii- 
iilt'H,  hilt  .von  hav«'  it  incii'l.v  um  tin-  bool<  rcfi'rn'd  to  in  tin* 
liiift-t  «>.\ainiiia(ion,  and  to  wliit-li  I  now  <-all  attention.  I 
will  have  it  marked  h.v  the  Seeretarv  for  indent itieation  with 
(lie  Seeretarv'H  initialH,  and  the  wordn  "For  indentifleation. 
No.  2,"  entitled  "Wealinjr  AecountH  and  general  infonnation 
liy  ('apt.  Alexander  McLean."  Now,  C'aplain,  did  yon  make 
20  tiny  part  of  tliiM  hook  for  the  ]MiiiioHe  of  d«>«M>ivinj;  anybody, 
or  hIiowIii)!  it  to  anybody?  A. — No,  nlr,  I  made  it  exprcHHly 
for  my  own  nH»». 

Q. — I  notice  yon  have  variouH  ret'ijM's  for  coii};Iih  and  bun- 
lorn*  and  one  tliinj;  and  anotlier  here?  A. — Yes,  Hir.  I  thought 
it  iiiiKht  be  convenient  aboard  Hliip. 

H — You  did  not  make  hiicIi  memoranda  for  the  pnrpoHe  of 
deceiving;  anybody  iih  to  what  kind  of  mixture  to  take,  or  to 
put  on  their  toes,  did  you?     A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — It  was  your  private  book?  A. — It  was  my  private 
book. 

(J. — You  were  asked  if  you  did  not  make  an  erasure  of  the 
word  "Master"  in  this  book,  and  you  said  you  did  very 
pi-nniptly.  Yon  wen*  not  master  of  the  "Favourite"  on  that 
vovaire.  were  vou — the  "Mary  Ellen"?  A. — No,  sir,  not  on 
the  "Mary  Ellen.'     ' 

(i. — And  the  word  "Master"  as  It  appeared  there  would 
nut  Ik'  the  truth,  would  it?  A. — No,  sir,  it  wouldn't  be  the 
Inith. 

(J. — And  you  also  put  the  word  "Ilonanza"  on  the  pape  be- 
low within  three  or  four  we«'k8.  I  tliink — "A.  McLean,  master 
scliooniT  'Honanza"?'   A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Wliat  is  on  the  jiajje  abov«'  it?  A. — (Examining) 
"Scalinc  in  the  racific  Ocean." 

(i.— \Ylint  is  that  the  catch  of?  A.— The  catch  of  the 
scliiioner  "Honnnza." 

(i. — Of  the  schooner  "Hcmnnza."  It  is  not  tlie  catch  of  any 
otlicr  vcswl?    A. — No,  sir. 

(2. — .\nd  that  is  a  corivct  transcript  of  the  catch  Ik  it,  Tap- 
liiin,  for  your  private  infonnation?     .A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i. — .\iid  wImii  you  pit  a  letter,  I  tliink,  fi"oiii  Mr.  Hodwell, 
tliiK  yon  iniulit  be  wanted  here,  you  went  ovi'r  tlM'se  books? 
A. — I  looked  over  the  books  and  thoiifjlit  I  had  better  correct 
tlicni. 

(i. — To  nive  pnijier  inf(»rniation?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

(]. — And  then  vou  let  them  have  the  books,  did  vou  not? 
A.— Yes.  sir. 

(■i. — .\nd  y»Hi  add«>d  that  you  wew  master  of  the  schooner 
"Monanza"  that  made  that  catch  to  indicate  to  anyone  that 
wanted  to  know  that  that  was  the  schooner  "Bonanza'^" 
ciitcli?  A. — Yes.  sir.  nt  tlie  time  this  column  here  was  not 
added  up  and  I  made  the  additions  in  lead  pencil. 

(i. — So  that  it  would  give  some  infoiinntion  to  anyone  that 
wiiiited  to  see  it?     \. — Yes,  sir. 

<i. — Now  (Ml  this  list  of  supjilies  in  the  back  jtart — you 
were  asked  in  ivjjard  to  it — for  a  nine  months'  voyane,  H 
lioiits,  '_»S  men,  yon  have  been  ('ross(>xaiiiin(>d  as  to  that,  or 
<'X:iiiiliicd  as  to  it,  and  tin-  various  items  caUed  ((»  your  atten- 


,|0 


5^ 


fx 


ir  M 


fll^  •'! 


h'i 


h  y 


V'4 


i'liv.r 


I 

I    f 
'!  ill! 


■  I 
i 

I' 


Iif''t- 


imW 


lO 


466 

(Ah'X.  MiLt'iia— U»Mlin  fl.) 

lion.     Did  .v«Mi  liiivc  ill  tiiiil  liHt  iiii.v  ham  iiid  Imu-oii?    A. — 
V«'H,  Nil-,  t licit'  in  HOiiK-  liaiii  iiiiil  iMiniii  iiii  tlicro. 

(^ — Ami   WJM'tl   VUll  fOIIH'  IH-rOMH  |)il«>f    bl-flDl   put   .VOIII-   I|||(>|M' 

IIII  tliat?     A. — (Kxaiiiiiiiii);-)     Hixl  ^  niHi-M  of  pilot  bri'tul. 

(^— Kitclit  liox«-M,  Ih  tliat?     A.— KiKlit  hoxt  h,  that  would  be 
a  box  tu  I'Hi-li  vt'HM'l. 

g.— That   Ih  all  .voii  had? 
ham  or  baron  on  hen*,  Hir. 

g. — Now.  on  lliat  fHlimat*'  of  '2H  nii-n  and  H  boatM  foi'  a 


:ilj|MMii 


30 


4^ 


50 


Co 


A. — Yf8.  Hir.     1  don't  kim'  any 


!l 


till-  total  for  thi'  pi'oriHions  of 
A. — That    would  be     provlHiouN. 


montliH  vo,va)i:«>.  did  you  foot 
(III-  out  lit?     A.— Y«'h".  nil-. 

g. — H«»\v   inurli   wan  il? 
|1LM'!M.!C». 

g. — Thai  in  Kroi-t'i-icM  niid  proviHiouH  for  Hit*  wlioh*  oiittil? 
.\. — Y«'K,  Hir.  for  tin*  wlioh>  oulHl. 

g. — Voii  have  Htatt'd  in  llif  aflldavil  which  huH  bci-ii  hIiowii 
you  that  for  llic  lhr<M>  y«>arH  your  linM>  for  h'aviiiK  Itchrin^; 
Sra  waH  about  AiikuhI  i'dli?     A. — Yi-h,  hIi-. 

g. — For  the  Manic  Ihrit'  yearn  you  have  tcHlillcd  licrc  that 
you  did  not  lower  I  he  boats  after  the  llllh?  .\. — Did  not 
hunt  any  after  the  UHIi. 

g. — .\nd  I  think  you  leHlitied  in  direet  examinalioii  llial 
yon  did  not  hunt  «iiy  but  left  the  Hea,  aeeordiiiK  to  your  lou. 
iiboiit  the  2i)th?  A. — Ych,  Hir,  within  a  f«'W  dayn  of  my  hint 
lowci'inK' 

Ij. — Ho  you  are  tixinK  the  same  (^enenil  ilate  for  leaving 
the  Sea  on  the  I'.'ith  for  three  yetirci  in  that  nftidavit  of  IHil'J. 
;  H  you  tcHlilh'd  here?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

i}. — .Vnd  the  eoineiiU'iiee  of  dal<>H  in  very  Himilar.  Now, 
when  you  wcri'  out  on  I  In-  "Favmirile"  did  I  lie  mate  liav*'  the 
information  an  to  the  ealeh  in  188li?  A. — No,  Hir;  he  mi^ht 
lia\e  had  the  dalcH  and  iiiiniber.  the  niimbev  of  Heain  that 
wan  eau)!ht.  I  am  not  nure  of  that.  I  don't  know  an  he  kept  a 
reeord  of  it. 

g. — Do  you  Hnd  on  ytnir  examination  of  the  lo|;,  and  the 
luemordiim  you  had  ur  to  the  plaeen  of  catch,  any  material 
ditfereiice  iH'tween  the  latitude  and  tlu>  longitude  Het  down 
in  your  meinoniiidum  here  in  the  b«H)k  that  huH  been  idciili 
lied  and  marked  "For  Identitication,  Nir  "2"?  A. — Hetween 
it  and  the  Iojth? 

(J. — Yen,  Mir?     .\. — In  what  respect? 

(i. — In  the  latitude  and  longitude?  A. — There  may  Im'  a 
ditference. 

g. — How  did  it  come  about?  .\. — The  poHilionM  are  put 
down  for  12  o'clock  noon,  and  the  book  I  UHed  put  the  ihihI- 
lioiiH  down  for  the  exact  pla<-e  the  HcalH  would  be  caught  in. 

Q. — You  k(  pt  lliiM  book  f«U"  your  private  information,  and 
put  down  tlie  sealiuf;  trroiind  aH  the  latitude  and  longitude? 
.\. — Yes,  Mir,  for  my  private  iiiforination. 

Q. — -Viid  that  you  trauRferred  to  tliiM  book  from  that 
memorand.'i?  .\. —  Ycm,  nir.  and  tlu-n  dcMlroyed  them,  be- 
caiiMe  I  didn't  winh  to  have  too  ninny  of  those  little  bookH. 

Q. — .\iid  you  kept  that  memoranduin  as  to  the  8«'iil  catch? 
.\. — Yi'r,  sir. 

Q. — The  latitude  and  longitude  of  the  seal  catch?  A. — 
Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Is  that  the  explanniion  of  the  difference  between  your 
latitude  and  longitude  as  shown  by  your  log,  taken  at  noon 
and  the  place  you  caught  seals  on  that  day?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — In  18S(>  had  Indians  come  to  be  employed  in  the  same 
way  as  white  men?      A. — Uj)  to  18S7.  they  wewn't,  no  sir. 

Q. — How  were  tliev  employed,  and  what  were  they  given** 
A. — They  used  to  give  them  a  certain  rate  jkt  skin. 

Q. — And   they  find   (hcmselvcs?        \. — Find   themselves. 

Q. — T  suppose  they  lived  on  seal  meat  those  days?  A. — A 
good  deal  of  seal  meat,  and  dried  flsh  and  bisctiita. 


Ml 


467 

(AIpx.  Mi'liCmi— K«'«llri'r<— HcrniHU.) 

g.— Aud  W118  tlii>r«*  aii^iliiiiK  in  llium>  diiyii  ut  m-uliiii;  ut 
(IiIh  kind?  WiM-t*  ludiiiiiii  llHiiiUK  for  m-alH  iiidf|H'udfiill>-? 
A.— Y«'8,  uir. 

Q. — And  tli«*,v  t-iiiiKlK  mciiIm  did  thvy  not?      A.— Voh,  Hir. 

Q. — Did  you  Iriidc  witli  llifni  in  iIiohc  dii^H,  A. — Yt-M,  Hir, 
um*d  to  \»iy  M«'tilH  from  llicni. 

(j. — And  .vou  nirrifd  hIuIT  to  Iradt'  witli  tlic  IndianH  for 
HkinH?       A. — YcH,  Hir. 

Q.— To  K<'1  llM'ir  tiilclHH?      A.— YiH,  Hir. 

(j. — How  many  HliipH  did  tiit*  raritir  Trading  Compnn.v  liavc 
unt?  A. — I  lM-li<'v«>  llu'y  liad  Honn-tliinK  liktt  I'iftlit  HitipH, 
prolMiltly  mi^lit  liavc  nion*  at  varioiiH  limoH.  I  iH'lifv*'  tin' 
nioHt  at  oni>  tinio  would  Im-  «-iKlit,  Hfv<-n  or  <<i>;lit. 

(2- — I  tliink  Homo  <-onipariHon  waH  mad<>  iN'twrcn  you  and 
Captain  Warron  aH  lH>inK  (Ix*  uldcHt  KvaierH.  I  tliink  ynii 
went  into  tlio  Itt'liriuK  H<>u  witli  aliout  tlif  tlrnt  waling  ti!p 
(lid  you  not?  .\. — In  the  "Hr'  IHcko."  Tlicrc  had  (km'U 
otlit-r  vt'HHolH  in  IIhto  lH'for«>,  liut  lliry  didn't  ti**  i»  <>**  <i  niat- 
t«>r  of  M'al  liiintiiif;,  otter  huntini;,  a  uinnX  many  of  lliem. 

Q. — WtiH  lli<>  "Ilonanxa"  UH<>d  at  all  aH  a  NU]tply  boat  to  tlii! 
otiD-r  boatH?  A. — Wfll.  hIio  wuh  intended  if  any  of  tlie 
(.then  veHHelB  ran  Hhort  of  proviHionn  to  Hupply  tliem. 

Q. — How  docH  Hlie  correH|Mtnd  in  tonnaRe  with  the  otliern? 
A. — Y<'ry  near  double  the  tonnap'. 

Q. — She  was  how  large?      .\.— .\tM)ut  H14  tonn  net  roRlHler. 

<'onimiKHl<iner  on  the  jtart  of  Her  Maji'wty: — Do    I     under- 
stand that  the  "ltonan/,u"  hud  Indian  hunlera  alMiard?    \. — 
3"^  No.  white  hunten*. 

The  ('ommiHHioner  on  the  part  of  the  Tnited  HtnteK: — Will 
you  take  the  provinionH  lM>re  and  let  me  know  how  mueh  it 
nunputeH  on  one  month  for  oaeh  man. 

Mr.  Dirkinsoii: — Tluit  wuh  for  nine  montliH,  of  course,  the 
*  'omnilHBionerH  understand. 


20 


40 


5^ 


60 


The  CommiHHioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty : — I  flgure 
it  I'S  men  nine  montliH  would  nuike  2.VJ  nutnths  for  ime  man, 
iind  |2,:204,  the  total  liill.      TIml  Ih  less  than  flO  per  num. 

Mr.  Diekinson: — One  thin};  1  did  omit  in  answeriuK  to  my 
friend.  .Mr.  I'eters,  as  t(»  tlie  basis  on  which  Hie  estimate  is 
iiiatle,  you  said  it  w.-is  made  on  tlie  basis  of  1S!)4.  That  in 
estiiiiateil  supplies?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — .\nd  at  priees  at  8an  Franeiseo?      A. — Y'es,  sir. 

Q. — Will  you  please  state  whether  you  did  not  have  t(»  do 
with  du'  tittiuR  out  of  the  "Favourite"  at  Vietoria?  A.— 
^'es,  sir,  1  hud. 

(i.— .\nd  any  other  ships  in  ISSfi*'  A.— Yes,  I  made  out 
lists  of  stores 

Q.— Now,  did  you  understand,  when  Mr.  Peters  was  ex- 
.•miininj;  you  that  he  was  referring  t«)  1S!»4  when  you  tlxed 
f<an  I'raueiseo  priees?      .\. — That  was  what  I  understood. 

Q— Prom  your  experience  in  tltliiipr  out  in  \'ictoria.  will  you 
please  slate  what  in  1S«(5  in  your  opinion,  was  the  estiiiiated 
MiIiplicH  jK'r  man  at  Yicloria?  .\.— U  might  be  ]irobably 
•il'oiil  111,  I  d«urt  believe  it  would  come  up  anv  more  than 
that. 

Q. — .\nd  yon  speak  from  your  own  experience  in  fitting  out 
luTf?      A.— Y'es,  sir. 

Itecross-examination  by  Mr.  Peters: 

<i.— Did  you  say  it  might  1k'  |11  at  Victoria  in  1«Sfi?  Let 
iiic  ask  you  the  question  how  you  make  tliat  calculation  witli- 
out  having  the  tiguros  before  you?      A. — Well.  I  have  already 


^1  .    1 


:!';■ 


I"! 


''\HlH 


10 


20 


30 


53 


468 

(AU'X.   Mfl.niii— lir-rfoHM.      A.   M.   Ah-xmnlvi- — IMiv»i.) 

inii{lf>  cHlculiilionH  lit  till'  tiiiit',  1111(1  I  founil  (liiit  tlit'.v  ih'Vit 
used  to  iivt>niK«'  nion-  than  iilHiiit  fU)  11  inontli  for  iiu>. 

Q. — Hut  whiTt'  hiivi'  .vou  gut  tlumc  i-iilnilatioiiB?  A.— I 
ll^iiri'ii  (iM-ni  lip  wIh'ii  I  would  Ih'  imi  tlio  vovii|{<>. 

H. — Ha VI'  you  an.v  In  «'xlHt(>nr<'  now?  A.— No,  sIp,  I  iim>«I 
to  flKiiri'  tluMii  ii|i  on  n  hook,  juHt  ofT-hanil. 

Q. — Your  thln^H  at  ci-rtnin  |iri<-cM  tlwri'  in  that  liook  whirh 
ri'fiT  to  1804  in  San  Pranrlm-o,  I  want  to  iiHk  you  ahout.  How 
ilo  the  artii'h'H  you  havi*  there — the  prleeM — niiiiiiaie 
with  the  prleen  for  the  unine  artieleH  at  Vietoria  in  iSWt?  Do 
you  know  the  differi'nee?  A. — Well,  at  preHcnt  tlie  price  Ih 
lower. 

(i. — Take  one  Item  for  inHtanee,  you  have  2,0(M»  ]>oiiiidH  of 
Hupir  then-,  at  3J  centH,  I  think?     A. — Yen,  nir. 

(i.— Xow,  what  would  that  lont  in  YietoHa  in  ISSO,  if  vou 
know,  iM'r  imund?  A. — I'rohahly  from  4  to  H  centn  for  Biicar, 
I  eouldn't  exactly  Mtate  heeanHO  I  d(in't  reaieinber  the  price 
of  articles  at  that  time. 

Q.— !  refer  to  Yoiicher  No.  3fi.  in  which  for  tlie  "Carohna" 
HU^ar  in  charged  at  8  <-entR  per  pound  in  1S80;  are  you  pre 
pan'd  to  Bay  that  Ih  not  corn'ct?  A. — That  dependH  a  Rood 
deal  on  the  grade  of  *he  BUgnr. 

Q. — I  want  to  know  are  you  prepared  to  any  that  it  would 
not  coBt,  and  did  not  cost,  that  aiiKuint  in  1S8(>.  at  Yictoria? 
A. — YeB.  Bir.  I  auppoH*'  it  would. 

Q.— And  flour  you  have  charged  there  at  ♦.J.Ofl?  A.— 1.1.5(», 
I  giiesH. 

Q. — A  sack?    Yes,  sir,  I  am  not  sure, 

Mr.  Itk-kinHon: — Now  let  us  And  out  whether  you  are  ex- 
amining about  18<J4  or  not. 

Mr.  Peters: — He  bus  a  book  here  of  1894. 

To  witnesH: — What  are  you  you  charged  in  1894  for  flour? 
A.— |:i.3(>  a  barrel. 

Q. — Now  as  to  that  item,  have  you  any  idea  of  what  flour 
would  have  cost  you  in  188ti  at  Yictoria?  A.— At  that  time 
T  believe  it  was  about  ^1.2^,  between  fl.OO  and  11.25  a  sack. 

The  CoiumiBHioner  on  the  part  of  the  Tnited  Stattw: — We 
all  know,  Mr.  Peters,  that  flour  and  sugar  were  much  liigiier 
in  1880  than  in  1894.     Take  some  item  we  do  not  know  about. 

Q. — You  had  corned  luiat  in  both  these  cases?  A. — Yes. 
sir. 

Q. — How  did  the  price  of  corned  bwf  in  1894  compare  witli 
188(i?    A. — I  think  they  would  be  very  near  e(|ual. 

Q. — Hut  without  knowing  what  the  difference  was,  are  you 
in  a  iHisition  to  make  a  calculation  as  between  the  two  years? 
A. — Well.  I  don't  know  exai^tiy.  I  believe  the  meat  was  about 
the  same  pri«-e  as  in  188t»,  tliat  would  be  about  flO  a  barrel. 

Kxamination  closed. 


Aiviii  H.  .Mexander  was  caled  as  a  witness  on  the  part  of 
<5o  the  I'nited  States  and  duly  swoni. 


Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Lansing. 

Q. — Mr.  Alexander,  wluit  is  your  occupation?  A. — Pn-y 
ent  occiiimtiou,  euiployee  in  the  Cnited  States  Fish  *'vvil 
mission 

Q. — What  was  the  dale  of  your  employment?  .\.--|ii 
Aiiril,  1880,  the  exact  date  I  don't  remember  now. 


•i^xj 


lO 


3f> 


(A.  M.  .MfXnmK'i— iHUHl.) 

Q. — Wlii'ru  wiiH  yuur  rt'Hiduiice  tit  tliul  linn-?  A. — llloit 
ri'Htcr,  MiiHwifliiim'tlH. 

Q. — lluw  lotiK  liad  .vou  roHidod  ut  (Slouctiiter?  A. — I  h.'.«l 
n'MidtHl  ut  Uluiu-VHtvr  from  1MU4  lu  uliuiit  l)S7:t  ur  1S74,  iiiui 
the  followiiiK  tlirt'e  yvan  from  lH7:t  I  think  in  L^nn,  an  i 
tlu'n  HKiiiu  in  Ulouecster  up  tu  18H8. 

<j. — Vviiut  wtiH  yuuv  u(-fU|iution  diiriuK  tlioMc>  yt-urH  friiiii 
1804  up  tu  1873?  A.— Wt>ll,  in  18K4  I  whh  a  hiIiooI  bov  and 
ii«»  occupation  exceptiuK  durinK  vacutiouM,  aH  in  cUHtoniary  f«)r 
all  Itu^VH  in  that  r(>Kion  tu  Hhip  aboard  a  vt'iM*i>l  him!  ;o  I'lirn  a 
little  pocket  money  which  I  did  occuHionally  for  Honie  ,vearH. 

ii. — t)u  what  kind  of  a  veHwel?  A. — American  tlHhinK  ve»- 
Hel. 

Q. — And  after  you  left  dcIiooI  what  became  your  occiipn- 
lion?  A. — 1  waH  enguKed  in  vnriuiiH  occupulionH,  at  times 
enpiged  in  working  for  my  father.  HometinieM  I  would  t)e 
enK>i(;ed  in  the  fiHherieM,  at  other  tinieH  in  the  Hnilmakin}! 
buHUesit. 

y. — What  was  your  father's  buHincHH?  A. — A  ship  car- 
penter and  builder. 

(). — Did  you  become  f-iiuliar  with  the  couHtnietion  of 
tiHhinK  veHHelM  ut  (iloucetttet '.'  A. — Well,  quite  familiar,  hav- 
n\i  Keen  them  in  the  proeeHs  of  couHtruction  for  a  f^rvni  num- 
ber of  years. 

(i. — And  their  cost?  A. — I  liad  an  apji'uximnte  idea  uh  to 
the  cost  of  the  most    /  them  during  those  times. 

(2. — And  us  to  the  rigK^KK"     A.— Ves,  sir. 

y.— The  outfit  in  peneral?     A.— General  outfit. 

Q.— After  being  emplovid  by  the  Fish  CommiHsion,  what 
were  your  duties?  A. — Aly  duties  were  in  the  capacity  of  a 
Hhip's  clerk,  or  the  private  secretary  of  the  captain,  and  also 
had  charge  of  the  scientific  collection  wliich  we  collected  for 
the  United  Htate  Fish  Commission. 

Q.— Where  did  you  do  this  work?  A. — All  tli»-  way  up  and 
down  the  Atlantic  coast,  from  the  coast  of  Labrador  to  (Jape 
liatteras. 

il — How  long  did  you  work  on  the  Atlantic  coast?    A. — 
\o  On  this  particular  vessel  you  speak  of? 

y. — Yes.  A. — I  was  emploved  on  the  schoon<'r  "flram- 
pus"  in  April,  1886,  and  left  her  in  the  month  of  May,  188K. 

(/. — Where  did  you  go  then?  A. — I  receiv«'d  onlers  from 
Washington  to  join  the  "Albatross"  at  San  Francisco. 

(i.~And  since  1888?  A. —Since  1888  I  have  Ihmmi  going 
to  Alaska  every  year,  except  this  year,  in  the  summer 
months.  In  the  winter  time  we  have  bi-en  at  work  occas- 
ionally on  the  coast  of  Mexico,  and  the  islands  of  tlu'  I'a- 
<-itic,  and  sometimes  on  sliore. 
5"  iy — On  coming  olT  the  coast  in  1888  did  you  make  any  ex- 
iiiniiiation — any  notes — in  reganl  to  the  constructi(m  of  fish- 
ing vessels  on  the  Pacific  Ocean?  A. — Well,  I  noticed  the 
(lilTerence  in  the  rigging  generall.v,  and  the  construction  of 
vessels  on  this  coast  as  compared  with  thoB<'  of  the  Atlantic 
roast,  and  I  took  mental  notes,  and  I  took  some  notes  down 
at  the  time  for  general  comparison. 

<i. — What  was  yonr  reason  for  doing  that?  A. — Well,  for 
two  reasons.  My  interest  in  vessels,  companng  the  two  builds 
iind  general  construction  and  so  forth,  and  also  as  I  thought 
it  might  1h-  n  part  of  my  duty,  I  might  be  called  on  some  time 
lo  answer  such  questions  for  the  Pish  Commission,  which  has 
been  the  case. 

il. — And  did  those  investigations  cover  the  cost  of  fishing 
vessels?  A. — In  regard  to  their  age  and  general  condition 
Mild  rig,  and  all  things  iM>rtnining  thereto. 

Q.— Cost  and  material?  A. — Material  with  which  they 
were  built. 


r.o 


•I'l^ 


:•      '       'I 


! 


i'l  Mint 


":i! 


i 


''^m^A 


2D 


30 


40 


50 


(A.  n.  A li'Xiiiuli'i— Direct.) 

Q. — Ami  iiiclhod  of  eoiiHtrnction?  A. — Tlielr  lines  in  geu- 
enil. 

Ci. — And  Htiitis(i«-H  I  pr(>Hiiine  in  refjard  to  tl>e  employment 
of  Kutli  viMHels?     A. — To  n  certain  extent,  yon,  sir. 

ii. — And  since  that  time  you  have  examined  st.alin<;  veKsel 
have  you?  A. — I  have  be<-n  on  board  quite  a  numl)er  of 
veHHelH  and  I  have  examined  them  at  sea  as  well  as  they  can 
be  examined  at  sea,  and  I  have  been  on  board  of  them  at  this 
port  and  also  at  Seattle  for  the  purpose  of  looking  them 
over. 

Q. — Have  you  ever  cruised  on  any  sealing  vessels?  A. — 
On  two. 

tj. — What  ones,  and  what  y«'ars?  A. — In  lSfl4  I  made  a 
cruise  on  the  scliooner  "Louis  Olsen"  of  Astoria,  and  in  ISll.T 
I  nuide  a  «'ruise  in  Hehring  Sea  on  the  schooner  "Dora  Hie- 
wai-d"  of  this  jM»rt. 

il. — Now,  in  the  summer  of  1888  you  stated  you  went  into 
Itehring  Seji?  A. — We  went  to  Ounalaska,  whi<-h  of  ooui-se 
is  in  the  Itehring  Hea,  but  didn't  cruise  in  the  Sea  that  year. 

ii. — While  at  Ounalaska  did  you  see  any  sealing  schooners? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — On  the  beach?  A. — At  Ounalaska,  yes,  sir,  I  saw  sev- 
eral. 

Q. — Did  you  8«'e  the  "Carolena"?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  go  on  board  of  her?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i. — Did  you  examine  her  carefully?  A. — 1  examined  her 
quite  can'fully. 

ii. — Whiit  was  slu?  constructed  of?  A. — She  was  con- 
structed of  wood,  of  soft  wood,  I  am  quite  positive.  Where 
she  was  built  I  don't  know,  but  I  am  quite  sure  she  was  von- 
structed  of  soft  wo(m1  of  some  kind.  The  exact  siK'cies  of 
wood  I  wouldn't  say. 

(i. — Mow  was  she  fastened?  .\. — So  far  as  I  could  see 
above  th«'  water  line,  and  ttn  tlie  deck,  she  was  fastened  with 
iron,  common  iron,  I  think  what  W4>  call  blo4-k  iron,  not  gal- 
vanized. 

ii. — Was  the  rigging  standing?  A. — The  rigging  was 
standing  at  that  time. 

Q. — Di<l  you  se«'  any  copjter  fastenings  about  her?  A.— 
No,  sir,  I  did  not. 

Q. — In  what  position  was  she  at  the  time  you  saw  her?  A. 
— .\t  the  lime  I  saw  her  she  was  lying  on  the  beach,  on  her 
starboard  side  I  tliink. 

<}. — (^ould  you  see  her  lines?  A. — Well  you  could  see  the 
lines  on  the  jtort  side  quite  w«'ll,  the  starboard  side  «>f  course 
would  be  submerged  in  water. 

Q. — What  could  you  say  as  to  her  lines,  were  they  old  or 
modem?  A. — They  were  whut  we  would  natumlly  CSill 
primitive  lines  as  c(>mpan>d  with  the  mod«>rn  build. 

<i. — Now.  Mr.  Alexander,  would  you  consider  yourself 
comjK'tent  from  your  genrnl  knowledge  of  vessels  and  of  vcs 
sels  that  could  be  use<1  for  fishing  ]Mir))os<>s  on  the  Pacific 
Coast  to  Hx  a  value  ujion  the  "Carolena"  ready  for  sea?  .\. 
— Do  y«Hi  mean  the  exact  value,  or  an  api>roximate  valu*'? 


Mr.  ]tei(]u«>: — I  do  not  believe  that  the  witness  sh<Mild  be 
examined  as  to  the  value  in  1888,  becaus«'  there  is  nothing  to 
60  connct  that  value  with  tlu'  value  in  1S8(»  when  the  vt'ssel  was 
seized.  Of  cours*>  the  witness  will  speak  as  to  the  value  from 
his  examination  in  1888,  win  n  tiie  vi«ss«'l  had  beeen  lying  on 
the  beach  for  two  years. 

Mr.  Lansing: — If  the  rommissinners  |»lea8<>,  my  learm  1 
friends  have  put  a  great  deal  of  evidence  as  to  tile  value  of 
vessels  in  Nova  Scotia  in  1888  and  in  18!M»,  to  establish  the 
value  of  the  "Caroh'ua"  in  188(;,  tind  it  s  ems  to  me  that  it  is 


lO 


20 


(A.  H.  Ah'xandi'r— IHmt.t 

iHM'fi'ct  1^'  ruiiiiH'tfnl  for  the  witiu'HH  iu  thiu  iiiHtaiit-c  to  pve 
llu'  viiliH'  of  tlu'  "('Mroh'iia"  in  IHHH  rciuly  for  wn,  if  hIic  Iiiih 
Imh'ii  r{'i»nii'i>d  jiimI  iiiiidt'  ready  for  sea. 

Mr.  lU*iqn«': — Of  <-ourM'  tin*  evidt'iirc  tliat  we  Jiave  jml  in 
waH  i\»  to  the  roHt  of  vchsoIh  ready  for  Healing,  Itut  my  oltjei-- 
tion  r«>Hts  on  lliiH:  tliat  tliiH  vcHHt'l  waH  abandoned  in  ISSti, 
lyin^  on  the  bi'aeli,  and  renniinin^  tliert*  for  two  yearH,  am! 
llie  witneHH  «>xaniined  lier  for  the  tirst  time  in  ISSS.  wlieii 
evidently  she  liad  very  mneh  deterioi-ated;  and  it  K«><>inH  to 
me  tluit  the  value  of  the  v«>«s«'l  at  that  tinu'.  under  thowe  eon- 
ditiouH,  would  be  no  criterion  at  all  an  to  the  value  of  the 
vt'HKel  at  the  time  she  was  seized. 

The  CommiHsioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  Htaten: — Mr. 
LauHinp,  hIiouKI  you  not  nuike  your  question  a  little  more 
guarded,  so  as  to  avoid  th«>  possiltility  of  that  presumption? 

Mr.  Lunsint;:  -I  will  withdraw  that  <|uestion,  and  ask  the 
witness  another. 

To  Witness: — Mr.  .\lexander  what  would  y«»n  consider  the 
value  of  the  "(.'arolena"  ready  for  sea  in  1SW5? 

Mr.  IViijue: — There  is  no  basis  of  knowled^<.>  shown  by  the 
witness.  The  witness  has  stated  already  that  he  saw  her 
lor  the  tirst  time  in  i888. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — \\v  submit  that  the  witness  has  shown 
himself  comiM'tent  from  his  expt*rieuce  and  investipitions, 
from  his  view  of  the  vessel,  cousiderinR  the  time  that  had 
elapsed,  and  the  wear  and  tear  of  the  ve»s«'l,  to  testify  what 
Mlie  would  have  been  worth  in  his  opinion  in  18Sti  equipped 
and  in  ;i:ood  condition. 

The  CommisMioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  Staites: — 
Would  you  not  Ik*  willing  to  ask  her  value  at  some  particular 
place  and  at  80]ne  i»articular  time,  put  in  i;ood  condition,  or 
fair  condition,  because  the  objection  nuide  t(»  that  question 
liy  Mr.  Iiei(]ue  was,  as  I  understand,  that  it  was  possible  the 
JO  witness  mijrht  undertake  to  state  the  valne  in  the  condition  in 
whi«-h  he  found  her? 

The  Cumniissioner  ou  the  part  of  ller  Maj.-hty: — It  seems 
there  are  a  number  of  things  that  would  b«'  involved,  Mr. 
Lansing.  First,  the  examination  of  the  vessel  to  see  if  she 
was  repairable,  and  then,  if  it  was  found  that  the  witness  was 
( (tinpetent  to  8i)enk  on  the  imitter,  and  if.it  was  found  she  was 
repairable,  having  in  view  the  necessary  repairs  to  fit  lu'r  for 
sen. 


30 


;o 


Mr.  Lansing: — If  y(>ur  Honours  please,  I  did  not  intend  the 
vessel  as  she  stood  then,  but  the  veBsel  as  originally  equipped. 

The  ( 'oinniissioner  on  the  part  of  Iler  Majesty: — Tliere  is 
nothing  in  the  notes  to  show  in  what  condition  she  was;  she 
iiiiglit  have  bi>en  bilged,  and  a  nnmlM>r  of  things  might  luive 
happened.      We  are  in  ignorance  of  all  that. 

The  ('oinniission«>r  on  the  part  of  the  Tnited  Mtat«'8: — Your 
question  misled  my  associate  precisely  af;  it  did  Mr.  Heitjue. 
I  do  net  understand  that  you  intend  to  ask  this  witness  what 
that  voBRoi  was  worth,  but  what  a  vessel  like  her,  or  a  vesss*'! 
in  f>iir  order  for  sea,  repaired,  would  be  worth — a  hypotheti- 
cal question. 

Sir  r.  II.  Tnpper:— W'orth  where? 

Mr.  Lansing: — On  the  Pacific  coast. 


*^ 


lO 


20 


472 

(A.  15.  Aliximdcr— IHit'cl.) 

Mr.  Ii('iqii«>: — I  would  call  tlu'  ('oinniiKMioiu'rH  a(t(Miti<Hi  to 
this  ollior  fact,  that  this  witness  has  Kivcii  cvideiM'*'  of  souk; 
kind  of  knowl<>d{;('  as  to  tlu'  value  of  vessels  in  Massaehusetts 
hut  so  far  as  I  am  awar««  none  whatev»»r  as  to  the  vahn*  of 
vessels  here,  lie  stated  that  he  has  been  taking  notes,  from 
examinin<;  vessels  that  would  not  show  any  knowledge  of  the 
eost  of  vessels  in  Victoria  in  1886,  or  even  in  San  Francisco. 
None  of  his  evidence  (]uali<ies  Iiim  as  an  cxi)ert. 

Tlie  tJomniissioner  on  the  part  of  Iler  Majesty: — It  ajt- 
pears  that  whal  Mr.  LansinK  seeks  to  get  from  this  witness 
is  an  answer  to  some  such  *]uestion  as  to  what  a  vessel  of 
that  size,  eharact«'r  and  a|tpearance,  and  built  of  snch  mater- 
ial, would  be  worth  at  that  time  if  nllont,  ready  for  sea,  and 
properly  equipped. 

Mr.  Lansiuf;: — That  is  precisely  the  question. 

The  Commissioners  then  took  recess  until  2:30. 


'      'iilM»". 


40 


At  2:.']0  the  Commissioners  r(>sumed/ their  seats. 

Direct  examination  of  Mr.  Al(>xander  resumed  by  Mr.  Lan- 
sing. 

Q. — Taking  into  consideration  the  size  of  the  vessel,  its 
3°  lines,  and  material,  and  its  construction  what  would  you  say 
a  vessel  similar  to  the  "Carolena"'  2r»  years  old  fully  equipped 
and  reaidy  for  sea  would  have  been  worth  on  the  market  on 
the  Pacin<;  Coast  in  lS8fi  and  1888?  A.— Hetween  |1,8(I0  and 
f2,(HM),  not  exceeding  $2,(MH). 

Q. — You  said  von  joined  the  schooner  "Louis  Olsen"  in  July 
1894?      A.— 2!)tli  of  July  I  think  in  18!»4,  27th  or  2!»th. 

Q. — Where  did  you  join  her?      A. — At  Ounalaska. 

Q. — Of  what  did  her  crew  consist?      A. — White  men. 

Q. — How  many?      A. — I  think  tliere  were  25  men  all  told. 

Q. — And  how  many  hunting  boats?  A. — Six,  I  think  it 
was. 

Q. — Did  she  have  a  stern  boat?  A. — She  had  no  stern 
boat. 

Q. — And  when  did  you  begin  sealing?  A. — The  first  day 
of  August.  We  didn't  begin  sealing  tli«>  first  of  Angnst,  w(> 
could  luive  sealed,  but  1  tliink  the  weather  was  unfavoralile 
or  something  of  that  n:itui-(>. 

Q. — And  at  this  time  the  ]>resent  regulations  as  to  sealing 
were  in  force?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  you  could  not  seal  befor«>  the  first  of  August? 
A. — \o,  sir. 

Q. — Can  yon  giv«'  the  number  of  days  in  August  that  yoii 
s<'aled,  or  tliat  you  were  unable  to  seal?  A. — I  could  by  re 
ferring  to  some  data  which  I  have.  Do  yon  wish  to  know  the 
exact  numlter  of  days,  or  just  tli«'  total? 

Mr.  Iteiqu<>: — I  do  not  know  that  this  could  apply  to  188fi  or 
18S7,  the  conditions  were  not  alike  at  all.  The  hunters  were 
not  p<>rniitted  to  use  shot  guns,  and  the  circumstances  were 
altogetln'r  different. 

The  (Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — 1  suj)- 
j>ose  this  has  referi'iu-e  to  the  state  of  the  weather,  Mr.  T-an- 
sing? 

Mr.  Lansing: — Nothing  but  the  state  of  the  weather,  and 
the  conditions  in  18U4  are  just  as  (SM-tinent  as  the  year  IHS" 
to  1SS6. 


50 


60 


473 
(A.  H.  Ah'xandtM-— Direct.) 

Mr.  Petei'M: — TIkto  Ih  a  spet-iflc  i-laini  that  we  are  entitled 
to  the  catch  of  1887,  18U4  standH  differeiitl.v. 

Witness: — (Referring  to  nH>nioranda.) — This  was  the  month 
of  August.      Tlie  whole  number  of  days  were  three. 

Q. — Tlmt  you  lowered?      A. — Whole  number  of  days  that 
we  lowered  were  three;  half  days  were  three,  and  the  periods 
of  three  hours  for  lowering  one,  and  not  hunting  during  that 
lo  time  14  days. 

Q. — Was  that  entirely  on  account  of  the  weather?  A. — 
On  account  of  the  weather. 

Q. — You  make  this  statement  from  your  data?  A. — Yes, 
bir. 

Q. — In  1895  were  you  sealing?  A. — I  was  aboard  of  a  ves- 
Hel  that  was  engaged  in  sealing. 

Q.— What  vessel  was  that?  A.— The  "Dora  Rieward"  of 
tliis  port. 

Q. — And  when  did  you  join  her?      A. — 1  think  it  was  on 
20  tlie  29th  of  July. 

Q. — Where  did  yon  join  her?  A. — At  Ounalaskn,  the 
same  place  as  the  former  vessel. 

Q. — (?an  you  give  the  number  of  hunting  days  for  the  first 
12.')  hunting  daj's  in  August  when  you  were  on  the  "Dora 
Sieward?"  A.  — The  whole  number  of  days,  nine  half  days, 
four  periods  of  two  hours  hunting,  ea<!h  two,  thrw  hours 
hunting,  one,  thrtn;  to  four  hours,  one,  not  hunting,  eight 
days. 

Q. — What  directi(tn  from  the  Islands  did  yoii  seal  in  1894? 

^     \. — Our  lirst  seals  were  taken  about  south  southeast  direct 

from  the  Islands,  and  graduallv  we  cruised  to  the  westward. 

Q.— In  18!>4?     A.— In  189r). 

Q. — I  asked  you  as  to  1894?  A. — Our  seiils  were  taken  to 
the  w(>st  and  northwest  of  the  Islands. 

Q. — The  Pribyh»ff  Islands  you  mean?  A. — I  mean  the 
I'libyloff  Islands. 

Q. — In  1895?  A. — We  began  sealing  I  think  somewhere 
south  southeast  of  tlie  Islands,  and  gradually  cruised  to  the 
westwai"d.  We  occasionally  changed  our  ground  from  west 
to  (ast,  and  ( ast  to  west,  but  gradually  worked  to  the  west- 
ward. 

Q. — What  was  the  jturiuise  of  your  being  on  these  vessels? 
•\. — My  pur|iose  was  to  gatlier  all  data  possible  of  a  pelagic 
nature  in  regard  to  seals. 

(i. — .'\nd  from  your  exjM'rience  what  conditions  would  yon 
say  modify  tlie  number  of  seals  taken  by  v«>si«*ls?  A. — The  •sm- 
dition  of  the  wejither  would  enter  largely  into  it,  and  the 
skill  of  th«'  hunters,  the  previous  exin^rince  of  the  captain 
50  iind  the  executive  ability,  in  regard  to  handling  crews,  par- 
liiiilarly  those  made  u)>  of  Indians,  and  the  chances  of  cnt<'li- 
ing  seals  and  possibly  remaining  among  them  when  found. 
I  mean  of  (hiding  seals,  and  of  remaining  among  them  when 
when  found. 

Q. — What  would  you  say  as  to  other  vessels  being  in  the 
vicinity?  A. — A  large  number  (»f  vesesis  being  in  the  vicin- 
ity would  lessen  the  chances  of  each  vessel  taking  seals. 

Q. — And  what  would  yo<i  consider  favorable  weather  fof 
sealing?     A. — Favorable  weather  would  be  clear,  or  a  com 
'')0  parativelv  clear  sky  and  a  smooth  sea,  and  a  gentle  or  a  very 
moderate  breeae. 

Q. — Does  t'le  weath«>r  pnn'ions  to  a  clear  sky  modify  thf 
cat<h  at  all  i:'  any  way?     A. — The  weather  previous? 

Q. — Does  the  weather  previous  to  a  clear  sp;'ll  affect  th« 
catch?     A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Explain  that  please?.  A. — For  illustration,  there  hai 
been  a  good  deal  of  wind  blowing  in  any  din>ction  for  tlmi' 
or  four  days,  and  th«'  seals  are  tin'd  out.     Thev  will  natur 


40 


U 


m 


I  r 


KM' 


■I 


i|i:^:'^' 


iiiiilitsi 


'i-in 


ri 


hi 


■*t  ■■, 


it-i 


m 

(!*■{ 


fpfifir 

i 

'iJiMi'^1 


474 
(A.  H.  AlcxiiiuhT— I»ii»Mt.> 

uWy  hIoi'P  iiiori'  hoiiimH^'  at  tlu'  t>ii(I  of  tlu*  j^ale  of  wind  thau 
othcrwiHt'.  .  Take  it  on  tli<>  otiicr  hand  wlit>n  HcalH  luiv«>  bt'cn 
rinitinf;  f<»i'  a  lon^  time — I  niijjlit  stati'  it  this  way,  tliat  in  ^i 
heavy  gale  of  wind  seal  do  not  sleep  vei'y  Honndl.v,  and  poH- 
Blbl.v  will  not  sleep  at  all  unk'si*  they  have  been  tiretl 
out  by  previous  exhaustion  by  a  sei'ii>s  of  gales,  something 
which  has  interrupted  their  slei'p,  but  in  uses  whei-e  they 
10  have  been  interrupted  by  wind  and  weather,  they  will  sleep 
under  conditions  which  they  would  not  otherwise  do. 

Q. — Tlmt  is.a  fact,  Mr.  Alexander,  is  it  not,  that  not  only 
the  weather  of  the  day  on  which  a  lowering  is  made  affi'cts  a 
catch,  but  also  the  weather  that  has  previously  been  bad? 
A. — Yes,  sir, 

Q. — And  what  would  you  consider  unfavorable  weather  for 
sealing  beside  the  mere  fact  of  being  unable  to  lower  your 
boat  on  account  of  rough  water?  A. — Well,  at  times  very 
'oggy  weather  interferes  with  the  lowering  of  the  boat,  ami 
20  sometimes  heavy  rain  will  interfere,  that  is,  it  won't  inter- 
fere with  the  lowering  of  the  boat,  Imt  the  chances  are  un- 
favorable for  catching  many  seals  when  it  is  raining  very 
hard. 

Q. — Why  is  that?  A, — ne<au9e  the  heavy  rains  oft  times 
causes  the  seals  to  become  rj'stless.  They  don't  sleep  sound- 
ly, and  they  are  hard  to  approach. 

Q. — What  would  you  say  fron«  your  knowledge  and  ex- 
perienw  as  to  the  w»'ather  in  the  sea?      .\. — It  is  variable. 

<i. — Is  it  variabh'  in  dilFerent  localities  in  the  Sea?     A. — 
30  It  is. 

Q. — Can  you  illustrate  that  in  any  way?  A. — I  c.in  illus 
strate  it  by  a  <rui8e  I  nwidv'  in  the  "Loins  Olsen"  before 
spoken  of  during  the  month  of  .\<igusT.  A  larger  portion  of 
it  we  were  to  the  west  and  northwest  of  the  Seal  Islands,  or 
the  rribylolV  Islands  during  which  time  we  only  lowcreil  the 
number  of  days  which  1  have  UKntioned;  and  nearly  all  the 
time  if  not  <|uite  all  the  time,  two  degrees  south,  or  two  and 
a  half,  as  tlu'  case  may  be,  down  at  what  tlwy  call  the 
Bogosloff  Orounds  tlu  re  were  lowerings  nmde  every  day,  and 
40  n  large  number  of  seals  were  iK'ing  taken,  while  we  were 
In  gales  of  wind  nearly  all  the  time. 

Q. — Then  what  would  you  say  as  to  the  z»mes  of  rough 
weather  and  fair  weather?  A. — According  to  the  logs  of 
sealers,  menof-war  and  cutters — 

Mr.  Peters: — Is  this  gentleman  going  to  give  evidence  of 
the  logs  of  sealers  when  we  have  them  here? 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  th<'  I'united  Slates: — He 
does  not  mean  these  particular  sealers. 

Mr.  Peters: — Can  that  evidence  lie  given? 

The  Commicsiont  r  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Siio 
{losing  anybody  wanted  to  report  about  the  c(mdition  of  the 
weather  in  Itehring  Sea.  how  are  Ihev  going  to  report  upon 
it? 

Mr.  Peters: — We  have  belter  evidence  here,  we  have  acttial 
logs  for  ev«'ry  one  of  tlu'se  years. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — Do 
you  claim.  Mr.  Peters,  that  for  tlie  purpose  of  ol»taining  a  litlle 
fact  about  the  weatlu'r  of  a  jmrticular  I'egion.  which  an  ex- 
]K>rt  can  answer  upon  inf<»rmation  he  has  been  gathering, 
that  w(^  are  to  wade  tlii*ough  hundreds  of  logs? 

.Mr.  Peters: — Tliat  may  be  all  v«'ry  well,  but  w«'  have  here 
the  fact  made  ap])arent.  admitted  by  this  witness,  tiuit  the 
weather  In  Ilehring  Sea  is  variable.  He  has  had  experience 
of  one  or  two  years  and  from  that  ex|)erience  lu'  gives  evl- 


50 


60 


4/5 
(A.  I  J.  Ali'xiindoi— Dimt.) 

(Ii'iiee  a8  to  bow  the  woutluT  niiRht  have  bot'u  1()  years  be- 
fore. 

Mr.  LnnsiiiK: — I  1»ok  pardon,  there  is  no  testinionv  an  to 
that. 

Mr.  Peters:— Then  he  says  more  than  that,  that  he  has 

examined  logs.      Now  in  the  case  of  the  "Carolena"  I  sub- 

i^  mit  that  we  have  nothing  to  do  with  the  weather  in  Behring 

Sea  except  for  the  years  1880  and  1887,  and  that  we  have  the 

iM'st  evidence  here,  the  logs  for  those  two  years, 

Tlie  Commissioner  on  tlie  part  of  tlie  United  States: — But 
we  have  got  to  g«>  througli  many  logs  t«»  get  at  it?  Do  you 
suppose  the  Commission  is  going  to  sit  here  and  go  througli 
all  those  logs? 

Mr,  Peters: — The  logs  themselves,  perhaps,  would  not  be 
evidence,  but  is  not  the  testimony  of  witnesses  who  were  in 
20   Hehring  Sesi  in  1887  the  best  evidence? 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Iler  Majesty : — The  offic- 
ial reports  are  presunuibly  correct  that  a  captain  makes  in  his 
log  in  the  {H'rformance  of  his  duty  to  his  owner  and  the  pub- 
lic, and  n  iierson  might  from  a  large  examination  be  in  a  posi- 
tion of  an  expert  and  be  able  to  give  an  opinion. 

Now  if  this  witness  is  shown  to  have  examined  a  sullicient 
number  of  logs  to  put  him  in  that  position,  I  would  not  think 
there  would  be  any  objection  to  his  giving  the  result  of  his 
30  examination.  The  degree  of  weight  that  might  be  attach- 
ed to  it  may  be  another  thing.  I  would  not  say  or  suggest  at 
present  whether  the  witness  is  shown  to  be  in  that  position. 

Mr,  Peters: — Up  to  the  j)resent  time,  with  all  deference  to 
my  learned  friend  who  put  the  question,  he  has  not  laid  a 
foundation,  he  has  not  shown  that  this  gentleman  has  that  ex- 
perience, that  lie  has  examined  any  numl)er  of  logs.  The 
tpiestion  is  put  to  him  in  this  way:  "With  your  examina- 
tion of  logs  of  sailing  vessels  and  men  of  war  what  do  you 
say  about"  so  and  so. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — No, 
tliat  is  not  the  question. 

Mr.  Peters: — What  I  mean  is,  there  has  been  no  founda- 
tion to  show  that  he  has  made  an  examination  of  the  official 
ilocimients.  The  particular  question  is  what  did  he  say 
iihout  zones  of  weather.  It  is  perfectly  clear  if  you  go  to 
liiy  down  a  matter  of  that  kind  you  could  not  lay  it  down 
without  taking  some  steps  as  suggested  by  Justice  King. 

The  CommisFiioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — If  he 
had  simply  asked  for  information  based  upon  the  examina- 
tion of  logs  of  a  few  vessels,  I  do  not  see  how  any  Judge  could 
jidiiiit  it ;  but  it  appears  that  he  has  been  in  that  sea  as  an  ex- 
pert on  lM>half  of  the  United  States  Government,  and  he  states 
iiinong  other  things  that  he  has  investigated  the  logs  of  var- 
ious vessels.  The  question  is  put  to  him  with  reference  to 
liis  entire  qualification;  all  that  appears. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  submit  that  all  that  ajjpears  to  the  pre- 
esnt  time  does  not  "show  that  this  gentleman  is  in  a  position 
to  give  expert  testimony  upon  that  point.  The  fact  that  he 
went  there  ns  an  ex)iert  is  all  right,  but  that  does  not  make 
liim  competent,      TI*'  has  not  shown  that  he  is  an  expert, 

Mr.  Lansing: — If  my  learned  friend  will  permit  me,  I  will 
iniiilify  him. 

Till-  CommisMiimer  on  the  part  of  the  T'nited  States: — Is  it 
wortli  while  to  take  tlu'  time  of  this  Tribunnl  with  n'ference 


40 


io 


Co 


-^tUy 


m\ 


>  ,  !   I  3.1, 


n  ^I'lillli'iti 


n 


■MM  ,'i\\ 


!;i! 


'U\Hv'. 


476 

(A.  H.  AlfXiiiulci  — hin'cl.) 

I0  tin  aiiHwcr  to  tliiH  i|iu'HMon,  Mr.  IVttTH?      W<'  litiv«>  Httito 
iiiciitH  fntni  }:«>i<(l(>iii(  n  of  that  Hiiiniftcr  Icnh  <]iialit1«'d  tlian 

lU'. 

Mr.  Petprs: — The  rvidcnce  \\v  have  givj-n  to  tl»'  prcHt'iit 

tjnu'  is  from  aftiial  cxpcricnc*',  and  that  kind  of  cvidpnc*'  of 

cours(>  must  b*'  adiniHHiblc,  but  thiK  maji  mivs:      "I  can  po 

hp.vond  tlu'Hi'  |H>o|)l(',  I  am  goin);  to  fjivp  8om«'  f*]H>cial  cvi- 

'O  dence." 

Direct  examination  continued  hv  Mr.  Lansing: 

Q. — Have  yon  examined  a  large  ojimber  of  logs  of  Hailing 
vessels,  and  of  cruisers  in  regard  to  the  weather  in  Rehring 
►Sea?  A. — I  have  exumined  quite  a  number  of  logs,  in  fact  a 
great  number  of  the  sailing  vessels'  logs. 

Q. — Extending  over  what  period?  A. — I  think  from  1887 
perhaps  to  1894  inclusive,  I  think  that  is  about  the  ground, 
?o   may  be  possibly  a  year  or  two  earlier  in  some  cast's. 

Q. — And  om'  of  your  chi«'f  purposes  was  to  establish  some 
rule  as  to  the  weather  in  liehring  Sea?  A. — That  was  one 
of  the  chief  purposes.  1  haven't  examined  them  all  alone, 
I  have  examined  them  in  connection  with  other  persons. 

Q. — Now  I  will  repeat  the  ([uestion.  What  would  you  say 
as  to  zones  of  good  weather,  and  zones  of  bad  weather?  A. — 
I  think  there  are  zones  of  good  weather,  and  also  zones  of 
bad  weather. 

Q. — What  would  you  say  as  to  any  |)articiilar  locality  for 

30  fair  weather?    A. — There  is  no  known  spots  so  far  as  I  know 

where  it  is  absolutely  certain  to  find  fa'r  wesither,  or  absi- 

lutely  certain  to  find  foul  weather,  they  vary  according  to  the 

circumstances. 

Q. — Is  there  any  locality  where  seals  can  always  be  found 
in  abundance?     A. — I  know  of  non<'. 

Q. — In  your  exiM'rience  of  two  years  did  you  tind  seals  at 
the  same  place?  A. — We  found  seals,  but  they  were  not  al- 
ways of  the  same  number,  or  equally  abundant  «me  time  as 
another,  they  vari»'d. 

Q. — And  what  would  you  say  as  to  what  locality  in  the  Sea 
you  took  seals? 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Are 
you  not  going  to  involve  us,  Mr.  Lansing,  in  a  pretty  long  in- 
vestigation? This  is  eight  years  now  after  the  seizures  un- 
der discussion. 

Mr.  Lansing: — If  your  Honour  pleases,  the  conditions  and 
habits  of  seal  life  have  not  changed  since  1886. 

50  rpl^^,  Commissioner  cm  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — The 
other  side  may  ask  us  to  investigate  that  (piesticm,  and  it 
may  take  as  long  as  in  the  Paris  Tribunal.  I  ask  the  ques- 
tion whether  you  think  it  necessary  to  ojM'n  that  door. 

Mr.  Lansing: — I  wi«s  simply  going  to  ask  him  as  to  any  par 
ticular  beds  or  localities  where  s«'als  can  be  found. 

The  fommissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — We 
have  got  witnesses  here  who  were  up  there  in  188(»  and  1887. 

6"  Mr.  Lansing: — I  dt'sire  to  show  Mr,  .VIexander  as  a  scien- 
tist what  was  his  theory  as  to  the  abundance  of  seals  at  cei- 
tain  times  and  certain  jdacis,  and  theii-  not  being  found 
there  at  other  times. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  jmrt  of  the  United  Stat«'s: — I  do 
not  r«'gard  Mr.  Alexander  as  a  scientist. 


40 


Witness: — Very  true,  I  am  not. 


477 
(A.   U.  Ahxaimh'i— IMiftI— CidSK.) 
Kxtiniiiiation  contiMifd  ]iv  Mr.  I/tinMiii}:: 

il. — Mr.  Ali'xnndfr  will  .vuii  Htatt'  what  rotiBon  .voii  would 
(iivc  for  tin*  iil)iiii(1iiii<-t'  of  st-nlB  at  a  rt'Hahi  plarc  and  a  cer- 
laiii  tiint',  and  their  not  tM'inK  found  at  another?  A. — <>, 
largely  to  th«>  niifiratory  hihtIch  of  flHh  which  tlu'y  HUbHiHt  on. 

ii. — What  \h  their  food?  A. — Their  fo«»d  coiisiftM  of  c«»d, 
in  a  nieaHure,  Nalnion,  mpiid.  niedUHae,  and  lloatinj?  enutaeae. 

ii. — Yo!i  W(»uid  say  pr.ietically  tliev  are  surface  feeders? 
A. — Tliev  are  practically  surface  feed'Ts? 

Q. — And  tlu'  Miiecies  of  fish  migratory?    A. — Migratory. 


5Ir.   Dickinson:— We  submit  to  the 
tliat  is  a  condition,  n«>t  a  theory. 


SO 


(Commissioners    that 


40 


Tlie  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Your 
remark  seems  to  apjtly  very  well,  but  Mr.  Lansing  was  after 
tlie  th«'ory  before. 

20  Q. — What  would  you  say  as  to  the  number  of  veswls  in  a 
(•(■rtain  locality  aiTectins  the  catch?  A. — I  should  think  that 
il  larfje  number  of  vessels  in  a  hteallly  where  seals  were  fair- 
ly abundant  would  have  a  tendency  to  lessen  the  individual 
catch. 

Q. — Why?  A. — Kecause  seals  are  very  timid,  and  the 
more  boats  there  are  on  a  f;"'»'n  Rround  covering  a  small  or 
hufie  ar<'a  as  the  case  may  be,  would  have  a  tendency  to 
fri'iliten  them.  It  dcH-s  frighten  them,  they  arc  harder  to  ap- 
proach, less  easily  obtained. 

Q. — Now  from  your  knowledge  of  sealing  in  Itehring  Sea, 
even  if  you  possessed  the  data  as  to  the  number  of  hunters, 
their  skill,  the  ex|K«riene  of  the  captain,  and  the  conditions  of 
tlie  weather,  localitv  of  the  vessel,  and  the  proximity  of  other 
vessels,  do  you  tliink  there  is  any  basis  upon  which  the  prob- 
able catch  of  a  vessel  for  a  given  period  of  time  could  be  pre- 
dhted? 

Mr.  I'eters: — I  submit  that  this  is  one  of  the  questions  this 
court  will  have  to  decide  on  the  facts  of  the  ease. 

The  <\)mr.ii8si(mer  (fn  the  part  of  Her  Majes'y: — You  could 
ask  whether  he  could  do  it  Mr.  Lansing.  Do  you  not  think 
that  that  is  as  far  as  you  could  go? 

Mr.  Lansing: — I  will  put  the  question  in  that  way. 

Mr.  I'eters: — Hefore  \u'  does  that  we  will  have  to  enquire 
into  this  man,  and  see  what  sort  of  a  judicial  mind  he  has 
got.  lie  may  be  a  very  good  naturalist,  (which  he  says  he  is 
not),  may  know  sometliing  about  seals,  and  may  be  a  scien- 
:;o  tist;  but  in  addition  to  that  he  has  got  to  have  power  of 
judgment. 

Tlie  ('(mimissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — We  think 
the  (piickest  way  is  to  put  the  (juestion,  and  reserve  the  ob- 
jection. 

tjuestion  repeated. 

A. — I  do  not. 

y. — In  connection  with  your  duties  on  the  Fish  rimnnis- 
(')0  sion,  have  you  studied  the  habits  of  migratory  fish  in  Hehring 
Sea  that  you  have  s|K)ken  of?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i. — How  many  years  have  you  made  a  study  of  those?  A. 
—  I  think  it  is  ciglit  years  since  I  first  went  tlu  re. 

Cross-examination  by  Mr.   Heique: 

<l. — How  old  ar«'  yo»i  Mr.  Alexander?      A. — 42. 
(i. — When  did  you  leave  school?       A. — I  left     SC'.iqqI     at 
about  the  age,  I  think  it  was  1«  or  17 


U 


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20 


30 


40 


5-^ 


60 


478 

(A.  li.  Al«'xiiinl«'r — CniHH.) 

Q.— Wlu-ri-  wfiv  you  at  Hchool?  A.— W«'ll,  when  I  flret 
lu'i^un  to  go  to  m-liool  W118  in  the  pliice  where  I  wuh  born. 

(J. — Up  to  what  age?  A. — I  think  I  attended  school  (here 
about  five  years. 

Q. — I'p  to  what  ajre  In  the  plaee  you  were  born?  A.— 
Well  I  went  to  whool  In  two  plaees.  I  am  siHUiklng  of  the 
plaee  where  I  was  born. 

y. — What  I  want  to  get  from  you  is  when  did  you  leave 
your  father's  house,  at  what  (ifjeV  .\. — .\t  about  the  age,  I 
think  s<tniewli(>rr  about  'JO,  possibly  may  have  Ihhmi  21. 

Q. — But  vou  were  at  sehool  up  to  the  time  you  were  Ifi  or 
17??      A.— Yea,  sir. 

Q. — When  you  were  at  school  you  were  living  at  your  fatli 
er's?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— All  the  time  that  you  went  to  school?  A.— Not  all 
the  tim<>  that  I  went  to  school. 

Q. — The  last  three  or  four  vears  that  you  went  to  school? 
A.— Yes. 

Q. — And  from  Ifi  or  17  did  you  leave  school?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Did  vou  renuiin  with  vour  father  until  you  were  21? 
A.— About  21. 

Q. — What  were  you  doing?  A. — As  I  said  b<>fore,  {H'riodl- 
cally  during  the  vacations  I  used  to  go  in  a  Ashing  vessel. 

Q. — I  understand  then  that  you  were  not  at  school?  A. — 
During  vacation. 

Q. — You  sav  that  >ou  left  scliool  at  about  the  age  of  IC  or 
17?      A.— 17,  yes. 

Q. — And  that  you  left  your  father's  house  at  about  21?  A. 
— Yes. 

Q. — I  want  to  kn«)w  what  during  that  peri(Ml  was  ynur  oc- 
cupation? A. — A  part  of  the  time  I  was  engaged  In  the 
fishing  business,  and  part  of  the  time  I  was  at  work  learning 
a  trade. 

Q. — What  trade?      A. — Sail  making  trade. 

(). — \ot  at  your  father's?      A. — No.  sir. 

Ci. — How  long  wer«'  you  learning  that  trade?  A. — I  was 
the  usual  time,  three  years. 

Q. — Between  tlie  age  of  Ifi  and  17,  and  21?  A. — I  believ*' 
that  was  about  the  age  of  starting,  about  the  age  of  18,  I 
think,  to  learn  my  trad(>. 

Q. — And  during  that  time  you  did  not  follow  your  father's 
business  very  closely  did  you?  A. — Well  I  was  somewhat 
conversant  with  it  being  around  there  all  the  time,  I  was  not 
actively  engaged  with  him  at  all. 

Q. — Did  you  ever  follow  the  cost  of  building  a  vessel?  A. 
— Do  you  mean  In  detail  from  the  time  she  was  commen<'ed  un- 
til she  was  ready  for  sea? 

Q. — Yes,  not  to  go  into  a  minute  account?  A. — I  have 
known  the  c.ost  of  other  vessels  after  they  were  built,  and  the 
current  value  of  them. 

Q. — Where,  what  vessels?  A. — In  Oloucester,  Massa- 
chusetts. The  "E.  B.  Marvin"  here,  the  "Henry  Dennis"  and 
the  "Oscar  &  Ilattie"  which  belonged  in  this  town. 

Q. — What  occasion  had  you  for  following  the  cost  of  these 
vessels?  A. — Nothing  more  than  I  was  interested  in  those 
things.  Naturally  as  an  Inquisitive  man  who  has  a  natural 
tendency  for  those  things,  to  find  out  If  possible  the  value  of 
those  vessels. 

Q. — From  whom  did  you  enquire?  A. — The  builders  and 
the  owners,  and  the  value  which  T  saw  she  cost  In  the  papers. 

Q. — What  was  the  cost  of  any  of  these  vessels,  the  cost 
of  construction?  A. — 1  will  cite  the  "E.  B.  Marvin"  which 
was  formerly  called  the  "Molly  Adams"  when  she  left 
Gloucester,  MnKsaclmselts.  it  was  reported  in  the  jmpers  at 
the  time,  and  there  was  a  general  supposition. 


470 


10 


20 


40 


6() 


i.\.  H.  AlfXiiiidiM' — <*i(»ht«.) 

Q. — Thut  iH  not  my  (iiicstion.  I  iiHk(>(l  you  if  you  could  Hay 
from  your  knowl«'<l);('  what  wiw  npproxiiiiutcly  tho  ooHt  of 
liuiUlini;?      A.— In  tin iKliboiliood  of  about  fliMHMK 

l^. — WIh'I'c  did  you  ^ct  that  knowU'diX''?  A. — From 
the  fnrt  that  I  working  on  hvv  nailH,  and  heliMHl 
in  i-t-pird  to  hoi-  pricf  an<l  coHt  at  tlu*  time  hIk'  was  launch- 
•  d. 

ii- — That  wa.-t  in  what  year?  A. — If  I  rcmfmbor  rightly  I 
iliink  it  waK  in  IHHH,  I  won't  nay  poHitivc  about  the  year,  but 
iibout  that  time. 

Q. — You  began  to  miy  it  waH  from  the  new8pa|)erH  you 
heard?  A. — I  mentioned  the  new8|)a|M*i'8  with  the  other 
t  liinRM. 

Q. — It  wa8  partly  from  the  newfipapers?  A. — I  heard  this 
Ironi  the  man  who  made  the  Hails  for  th(>  "R.  H.  Marvin,"  Mr. 
Ilenry  II.  Colby,  of  (Jloueenter.  and  I  heard  him  say  that  when 
she  was  ready  for  seji  she  would  t-ost  in  the  neighborhood  of 
.*i:i.O(MI. 

(i. — Ho  it  is  from  what  a  man  told  you  that  you  were 
speaking  of  tln'  cost  of  this  vessel?  A. — I  didn't  see  the 
money  paid,  I  see  a  bill  of  sale  of  course. 

(2. — IHd  y«»n  ke«'p  any  trace  of  the  c«»st  of  any  imrt  of  the 
vessel?       A. — O,  no. 

(i. — And  you  had  no  means?  A. — I  didn't  keep  an  itemiz- 
ed a«'count. 

Q. — You  can  speak  only  from  what  this  man  told  you,  and 
what  you  may  have  seen  in  the  pai)er8?  A. — That  is  what 
I  Itased  my  judgm<>nt  on. 

(i. — I  su]>pos(>  it  is  about  the  same  as  with  the  other  two 
M'ssels  you  have  mentioned?    A. — Yes.  about  the  same. 

ii. — Your  exjierience  is  of  the  same  nature.     From  the  age^ 
"f  21  up  to  1KS5,  what  were  you  engaged  in?     A. — I  was  en- 
^'iiged  at  different  times — some  parts  of  the  year  I  was  en- 
jjaged  in  sail-making,  and  some  parts  of  the  year  I  was  en- 
^'iiged  in  the  Ashing  business. 

(i. — Whei-e?  A. — In  (Sloucester.  Mass:ichusetts. 
«>. — -Mways  tluMe?  A. — Not  always,  three  years  of  this  time 
I  was  in  Lynn,  Massachusetts,  I  think  along  the  lat- 
ter part  of  the  'Tit's.  The  most  of  the  time  I  was  working 
with  my  father  and  k(>e|>ing  his  Itooks,  and  things  of  that 
kind. 

(}. — When  were  you  keeping  his  books?  A. — I  think  that 
was  along  about  ISTJt.  or  1880  or  1881.  somewhere  along 
there. 

(i. — When  did  you  go  to  Heliring  Sea?  A. — I  went  to 
iSdiiing  Sea  in  188S  the  first  year. 

(^ — How  long  were  you  in  Hehring  Sea  that  year?  A. — I 
iliink  we  left  San  Francisco  on  the  4th  day  of  July,  we  land- 
<d  ill  (Minalaska  somewhere  proliably  12  or  14  days  after 
Dial.  I  don't  remember  the  exact  tim«>  we  took  on  the 
Mivage.  Went  to  Ounalaska,  remained  theiv  8«»verjil  days, 
^!ii<l  then  did  cruising  until  the  latter  part  of  August  I  think, 
iir  possibly  in  Septeml)er,  not  in  the  Sea  proper,  but  around 
viirious  jmrts  of  Alaska. 

(i. — How  long  w»'re  you  in  Hehring  Sea?     A. — That  year? 

(i. — Yes,  that  year?  A. — Well,  we  entertnl  the  Bebring 
Sea  several  times,  every  time  we  came  to  Ounalaska  we  eu- 
iticd  Hehring  Sea,  but  we  did  no  cruising  in  Hehring  Sea  un- 
lii  next  year? 

Q. — Yon  do  not  answer  my  question  as  to  how  long  you  re- 
mained in  Hehring  Sea  in  1888?  A. — If  I  remember  rightly, 
He  wei-e  there  in  Ounalaska  on  four  or  five  different  occas- 
ii'iis,  remaining  llwre  about  a  week,  three  or  four  days  pos- 
;-il>ly.  il  was  sometimes  a  week  each  tinje,  but  did  no  cruisng 
ill  Ueliring  Sea. 


'::•  i 


I  ■■t 


\ii\ 


1 
1 

■ 

!i 

+ 

m 


m 


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1 

fP?" 

MM'I 


20 


3*^ 


40 


50 


60 


480 

(A.  H.  AI»'Xiiu<h'i' — <"ioMi<.) 

y,_Ho  you  wvw  in  Ik'liriiiK  Hcii  iiuTcly  o«-(-iiHioiiiill,v,  In 
l^'^<«?    A.— YcH.  hIp. 

Q, — Wht-n  did  .von  «oiiiiii«>nc4>  in  Itt-lirint;  Km  in  IHSK? 
How  loiiK  wen-  .vou  in  Iti'lirinK  Mm?  A. — Tlio  niowl  of  tlii' 
Huninii'i'. 

ii. — HtnU'  thf  jM'ri<Ml?  A. — \V»'II,  wi.v  from  tlic  in«Mitli  of 
•Inly,  iH>Hiu|m  tlu'  lIlMi,  until  tlu>  latU>i-  |Mirt  of  AuKUHt.  |H>r 
ha|')M  tilt'  2ritli  or  .'totli. 

Q. — On  wliiit  vcsHel  wi'iv  .von?    A. — I'nitod    Htiit«'«    »lilp 
"AllmlroBH." 
(i. — WnB  hIm'  st'iUin^V     A. — No,  hIi'. 

(i. — What  wa«  hIic  doinK?  A. — 8I10  waH  <>nt;aK<>d  in  Imt 
legitimate  duty  collt'ctinK  information  alKiiit  the  flMheiieH, 
d«H>]>  Hea  HoundiuKH,  and  livdro^rapliic  worl<. 

Q.— When  were  you  next  in  HehrinR  Sea?      A— 181MK 
(i. — llow  long?     We  were  there  aliout  the  same  time  aH  be- 
fore. 
(J. — On  what  vessel?     A. — The  "Albatross,"  same  veusel. 
Q. — In  the  sam«*  oeeupatlon?    A. — In  the  same  oecnpation. 
Q.— Next?     A.— 1891. 
Q. — On  what  vessel?     A. — Sanse  veswl. 
(J. — OecnjiyinK  the  same  position  again?    A. — The  same. 
Q.— 18»2?"  A.— In  18!>2  I  was  on  the  n-venue  cutter  "Oor- 
win."  I  was  on  the  "Corwin,"  also  oh  the  "Uusli."     I  was  on 
the  "Corwin"  only  on  this  e«»!ist,  ornising  from  Vietorin  up 
to  Fnirweather  Orounds  and  baek  again,  boarding  sealers, 
and  gathering  infonnatiim.  Tlie   same  year  after  leaving  her 
I  joined  the  "Albatross"  and  remained  with  her  for  two  or 
thn'e  days,  and  then  was  transferred  to  the  "Rush." 

Q. — How  long  did  you  n'umin  in  Behring  Sea  in  1802?  A. 
— I  think  we  got  there  somewheres  the  first  of  July,  and  re- 
mained there  until  about  the  28th  of  August. 

Q. — Not  oecuiued  at  sealing  at  all?  A. — On  board  the 
revenue  cutter  "Hush"  who  were  boarding  vessels  and  rnn- 
ning  lines  from  the  Pribyloff  Islands  25  miles  out  each  way, 
KM)  miles  apart,  and  taking  soundings,  noting  the  abundance 
or  scarcity  of  seals  in  the  zones  we  imssed  over,  and  what 
seals  we  got  I  used  to  skin  them  and  prepare  them  for  the 
Natitmal  Museum. 

Q. — In  18!)3  were  you  in  Hehring  Rea?    A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q. — On  what  vessel?    A. — I  was  «m  the  "Albatross." 
Q. — In  sejiling?     A. — She  was  engaged  taking  soundings, 
but  occasionally  would  board  a  fealer  and  gather  infonna- 
tion  in  connection  with  s(*nlH. 

Q.— What  vessels  did  you  board  in  18!>.'J?  A.— Well.  I 
don't  know  as  I  <'ould  answ<'r  that  (juestion  correctly.  I  re- 
member two  or  tlir«H>  different  occasions  tliere  were  vessels 
boarded,  which  ones  1  don't  know,  I  think  the  "Triumph"  was 
one,  and  I  think  the  "Marvin''  was  another. 

Q. — How  long  did  you  remain  in  Rehring  Sea  in  18!).T?  A. 
— About  the  usual  tme,  about  the  latter  part  of  August. 

Q.— Or  the  middle  of  July?  A. — SometimeH  the  first  of 
July,  to  the  latter  part  of  August,  and  sometimes  the  8th  or 
loll  of  September.  The  cruises  vary.  I  cannot  exactly  put 
the  dates. 

Q. — Then  you  went  there  in  1804?      A. — Yes.  sir. 
Q. — But  up  to  1804  the  only  year  during  which  you  were 
occnjded  in  S(>aling  was  in  1880,  was  it  not?      A. — 1802. 

Q. — And  there  was  only  one  year  that  you  were  occupied 
at  sealing?      A.— Prevou's  to  1804.       Yes,  sir. 
Q._What  year  was  it?      A.— That  was  1802, 
Q.— Well  in  1S04  when  did  you  enter  Behring  Sea?      A.— 
1  tliink  w<'  got  into  ISeliring  Sea  soniewliere  about  the  20tli 
of  June.      I  think  it  may  liave  been  a  week  earlier. 


1 J 


30 


-10 


S^ 


60 


481 
(A.  li.  .\li-Xiiiid«'r — (;ro88.) 

t^. — And  you  remaiued  to  wLut  dutf?  A. — Wc  iuudi>  neve- 
ml  i-ruiHi'B  all  afuuud  th<-  iHlaudM. 

H. — AiiswiT  uty  qiK-Htioii.  I'p  l»  what  date  did  jon  r«)- 
aiaiu?  A. — 1  wait  on  two  vvhmi'Is,  I  went  up  on  liic  "Albat- 
roMs"  and  I  left  thu  "AlbalroHH"  aftn-  nutkhiK  Heveral  cruiHi'M 
in  the  Hca,  1  lett  her  at  OnualaHka  on  tliu  L'7tli  of  July  tlifn  I 
iMHirdi-d  till*  LouiH  Ulwn"  tlun  wint  into  tin-  Mm  uu  u  Hoai- 
iiig  voyage. 

Q. — Ho  that  ."kou  woro  on  tin-  "OiHeu"  only  fioui  tin-  lidth 
of  July,  or  li'Jth  of  .July  you  miy?  A. — 1  think  we  left  out 
through  the  I'ninuik  I'aMH  on  the  2">i'd  day  of  AugUHt,  and 
liinie  down  to  N'ietoi-ia. 

(i. — And  that  wan  your  Heeond  experienn-  at  Healing?  A. 
Yes,  Hir. 

Q. — In  what  lapaelty  were  you  on  board  the  Hhip?  A. — I 
waH  ueut  there  by  the  Cnitccl  Htates  Fish  <'oniniiHHion  to 
pitlier  what  informal  ion  1  i-ould  with  rejtard  to  Heal  life,  ex- 
iiniine  their  HtoniachH,  au  to  what  they  feed  u|Hin,  and  gath- 
i-r  what  information  came  to  my  «»t)H«-rvation,  taking  tempera- 
lureH,  noting  the  veloeity  of  the  wind,  and  thingH  of  that 
i;ind. 

il. — Again  in  181)5  you  were  in  the  Hea?  A. — Yes,  Hir,  iu 
the  "Dora  Hieward." 

Q. — What  time  did  you  enter  Uehring  Kea?  A.— Came  in 
•luue,  the  latter  part  of  June.  I'oHHibly  the  tlrHt  of  July,  I 
joined  the  "Sayward"  1  think  it  waK  July  2!>tli,  1895,  either 
t lie  27th  or  the  2i)th  1  have  forgotten  whii-h. 

(i. — And  you  remained?  A. — 1  remaiued  on  the  "Dora 
Sieward"  until  the  I2th  dav  of  October,  when  we  landed  in 
Viitoria. 

y. — Hut  in  H<  hring  Sea  you  remained  how  long?  A. — I 
think  tlie  22nd  day  of  8i>ptember. 

Q. — Wan  she  occupied  in  Healing?       A. — All  the  time. 

(2.— I'p  to  the  22nd  day  of  Septemlwr?  A.— I  think  that 
wiiH  the  date. 

(i. — Was  tlmt  youi"  last  seaHon  in  Itehring  Sea?  A. — 
Tliat  was  my  last  season. 

(). — I  believe  your  experience  has  lu-en  that  the  seals  were 
i|uite  tame  in  Behring  Sea,  wen'  they  not?  A. — At  times 
lliey  are. 

(i. — In  July  and  August?  A. — Sometimes  they  are,  and 
sometimes  not. 

{I — As  a  rule?      A. — It  depends  upon  the  weather. 

Q.— As  a  rule,  are  they  not  easily  ;ii»i»roached?  A. — ros- 
sildy.  I  may  say  under  certain  circumstances,  yes. 

Q.— I  believe  your  experience  has  Imhmj  that  they  are  (piite 
plfiiliful  durina;' -Tnly  and  August  in  Uehring  Sea?  A.— I 
liiive  seen  them  quite  jdentiful. 

(J.— As  a  rule  you  have  seen  them  in  large  numbers  have 
you  not?  A.— Well  that  would  d»'pend  on  what  constitutes 
large  quantities. 

Tlu'  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Is 
not  this  a  matter  (»f  a  sliut  out  on  the  other  side,  Mr.  Beique? 

Mr.  Beique: — I  do  not  think  so. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  jmrt  of  the  United  States: — Does 
it  not  rehile  to  (lie  questiim  Mr.  Lansing  p;it  which  was  ex- 
I  liidcd?  Of  what  consequence  is  it  to  us.  wl>"t*he  condition 
'•f  seal  life  was  in  1S1>4  or  18JI5  when  he  was        /e. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Fler  Majesty: — I  feel  this 
\vay.  that  I  do  not  think  we  ought  to  go  into  an  enquiry  as 
((>  the  condition  of  seal  life  in  1804.  If.  howi'ver.  the  evl- 
il'iice  as  taken  shows  that  Mr.  Lansing  w(>nt  into  that  on 
Ills  direct  examination,  thou  T  think,  according  to  the  usual 

'M 


i 


^i'  .•I 


M 

'I' ill  H 


' 


'mi' 


:  1  M 


.1 

■  Mi 


II T  I 


I  ,! 


4S3 


lu 


30 


(A.  II.  Alcxinidfi — rroHH.) 

t-iili'H,  a  I  roHM  I'xaiiiiiicr  wonM  liavi'  lihfi't.v  to  fiOluw  it.      Oth> 
<>rwiM«',  you  would  liavf  Honii-  of  tlit'  <>vl:lfiu-«>  that  wt*  inJKht 
think  not  ri'Icvant,  and  ri-all.v  (tliJ*-ctionahh>  on  tin*  notOH,  and 
no  <-ro<«N  examination,   wliirh   niiKlit   |M-i-ha|m  tvnd  to  i|ualirv 
it,  or  nilKht  not.      Thfrfforc,  it  would  m-fni  to  nif  that  to  d«-- 
l<'nnin<'  wlii'tluT  IIi«>h«-  qucMtiouH  kIiouUI  Ii<>  ankcd  l),v  Mr.  Ml*- 
i|n(>,  Wf  art'  Hiniply  to  m>«>  wlifthfi'  thr  matter  wan  k<»i«'  into 
It.v  Mr.  LanHiuK.      It  Hiru<k  in«'  that  tlx'  fxaiiiinaiion  liy  Mr 
KauMinK  wuh  ratlicr  full  on  th<>  niatt«>r.  and  that  tin*  t'ni|uiry 
WUH  to  Nonu'  «'Xli>nd  intori-d  upon  that  would  admit  all  th«-H<> 
(|ut-NtionH.    At  tli<-  Hanu>  tinir  I  a(!i'i'*'  with  my  li-arn<Ml  Itrotli 
<T  that  the  fni|uiry  ouKht  to  Im*  diM>m(>«I  an  irrt'lcvant  ono. 
Thi'  only  tpicHtion  in  my  mind  Ih  touching  tlii>  t-xaminatlon 
of  tlilH  witnt'HM,  and.  not    the  K<>ii>K  i"t<>  "   luTfaftor,  wluTr 
it  Ih  not  o|HMi  (HI  rroHH-cxaminatitui,  to  >«M>k  to  rroHH-rxamlnt- 
u|M)n  «'vid<'nc-t'  tluit  Ii.ih  Ix-cn  admitted.       It  miKht  tx'  tin*  ImM 
ter  plan  to  have  the  whole  Htritken  out.  and  that  wtnild  oh- 
vlate  any  difflcuity. 

The  CummlHHiom-r  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — 1 
a^rtH'  with  my  learned  asHoeiate  that  it  ought  t(»  he  all 
«trieken  out.  Of  eourw  tin*  (pieHtion  put  with  reference  to 
the  nii|;ratory  nature — the  <|uesti«)n  whether  seaU  were  found 
in  one  pl:ue  at  one  HeuHon,  and  in  another  at  another,  Ih  en- 
tirely ditTen-nl. 


30 


'IllMtni 


40 


Mr.  LanHiuK: — I  think  my  <|ueHtion  led  up  ti»  that,  ami  I 
particularly  avoided  the  (pKNtion  aH  to  the  abundance  of 
HealH  in  any  particular  year  1  in  compariHon  with  any  other 
year,  or  any  Mtatement  an  th«>  number  of  m-alH  taken  on 
any  date,  or  during;  any  ycii  I  merely  UHked  the  queHtion 

UH  to  whether  KealM  could  be  found  in  abundance  at  one  place, 
and  at  the  Hame  time  return  there  another  year  and  not  be 
found  in  abundance.  It  wiih  merely  to  bring  out  the  fact 
that  they  were  migratory  in  their  habits  of  feeding. 

Mr.  I»eii|ue:— My  learned  friend  ban  gone  a  little  further. 

The  t.'ommiHSKnier  on  the  |»art  of  (lie  liiited  States: — What 
you  say,  Mr.  LauHing.  is  perhaps  correct,  but  my  mind  caught 
the  fact  that  vou  were  investigating  the  condition  of  seal 
life  in  istt4,  and  I  connected  it  at  once  with  this  same  ((ues 
tion  you  and  Sir  Charles  Tapper  had  been  discussing  a<roH8 
the  table.  If  wc  get  into  these  questions  we  shall  protract 
this  investigation  beyond  what  we  would  be  justified  in  do- 
ing in  m,'  opinion. 

CQ       The  ('(unmissioner  on  (he  part  of  Her  Majesty: — Had  this 
better  not  be  stricken  out. 

The  t'ommissioner  on  I  ho  part  of  the  T'nited  States:— I 
want  it  to  stand  as  my  protest  again't  openinjr  up  this  ques 
tion. 

We  have  a  practical  (|uestiiiii  to  settle  here,  and  in  my  judg 
ment  it  can  easilv  be  handled  within  the  ordinary  rules  gov 
erning  proteedintjs  in  a  couit  of  law — not  the  narrow  rules, 
and  I  do  not  think  we  are  just-:t)ed  in  going  into  a  large  tielil 
^^'  which  would  protract  this  ('oniniis,>tion  beyond  what  the  cir 
cumstances  fairly  require.  Tlieref«u'e  I  have  several  times 
inter]iosed.  It  is  on  this  ground  that  I  was  reluctant  to  sec 
these  affidavits  (qtened  up.  and  for  the  same  reason  it  was  I 
interposed  by  my  question  t<»  Mr.  Lansing.  I  have  done  it  main 
ly  in  the  way  of  <|uestionH,  kiuiwing  jKM-fectly  well  that  we 
are  all  feling  our  way  so  far  as  this  case  is  concerned.  When 
we  come  to  other  cast  s  we  perhaps  can  pro<'ee<l  on  all  sides 


10 


4H3 
(A.  II.  AlfxiiiMlfr— <'ioHH.) 

iiiori'  iindt'i'HtiindinKl.v.  TliiM-cfon'.  what  I  liavt'  int«'i'|HtM<Hl 
liiiH  h(>4'ii  niiiiiily  ill  tli«>  wii.v  of  iiiicKtioiiM,  liiiviiiij;  in  iiiiii<l  timl 
ii<»ii<'  of  iiH  «-«•■■«•  Hc-liti^  Willi  all  III)'  liKlit  W(>  iiit;lit  Iio|n'  to 
liavt'  fiirtlicr  aloii^;,  a|)|)rffiiitiii(;  tlii'  difllniltit'H  fouiii*«*l  luiv*- 
aii«l  iloiihtitiK  iiol  roniiHfl  niipitM-iat)'  tin*  tilfllnillit'H  wliUii  tli<' 
roiiinilHNioiK'rH  have  iiiidtM-  tli<>  i-ircutiiHtaiit'cH. 

Tlu"  (JoiniiilHHlomT  on  IIm'  ;ar1  of  Ilcr  Mhj«»h1.v: — I  do  not 
wImIi  to  Ih'  tlioiit'lit  aH  liavlntr  att)'m|)t«>4l  to  lii.v  down  any  ({imi 
«>ral  rule,  but  Hiniply  to  deal  with  tli(>  pnirtical  i|ii:-«tlon  of 
wlu'tlicr  tli4>  (TOHH-t'xaniltiation  |iro]KTly  arow    out     fif    the 
dirert  examination, 

TliP  (jtunniiHMioiK'r  oil  the  part  of  t>u>  riiiti-d  Hlat«>H: — t'oiii 
ini;  to  till'  practical  matter  Ixfoii'  iih,  iiiv  learned  aHHot-iati- 
HiiKKeHtM  that  it  he  Ntrit-kcii  out.  Tlierc  Ih  oim*  otlirr  way 
wliifli  would  be  to  allow  iMr.  I.anHinK  to  put  the  qiioHlioii  an 
to  wliii-h  I  rlicfked  liini.  and  tlit-n  let  Mr.  Ilfii|iit'  follow  out 
20  IiIh  line  of  <TOHH-exaiiiination. 

Mr.  IMi-kiuHon: — <hi  liclialf  of  llii>  rnilfd  Slalew  we  tIeHirc 
to  Hay  tliat  we  will  a^ret'  with  out-  learned  fri*-ndH  on  tlie 
other  Hide  tliat  tlie  eiosN  e.xiimiiiation  <>n  this  point  in  pM-niiine 
to  llie  dire<t  exaiiiiniitioii.  We  are  I'lidejivoriiit;  to  nImiw  the 
niodiflentionH  in  the  liahitH  of  the  wal — the  niiNlilieationH  of 
tlie  oi»])ortiinty  to  take  the  Heal  wlieii  there  wiih  Heal  ther(> — 
by  thiH  witiieHS.  by  the  lialtitK  of  the  Heal,  the  iiiiRratory  liabiU; 
aii<)  it  would  Heeiii  to  uh  that  tlie  (piention  of  Mr  Meii|Ue  to 
30  the  witneNH  wan  pertinent  to  the  eroHH-exnininaion.  We  have 
not  objei'ted. 

The  CoinniiHHioiier  on  tin-  part  of  tlie  Tiiited  8tut«'H: — If 
that  Ih  tlie  view  of  (he  eounHel  for  the  I'nlted  Htaten.  Mr. 
LanHinf;  nhould  be  allowed  to  obtain  an  annwer  to  his  queH- 
tion. 


I 


40 


lC 


Mr.  DiekiiiHoii: — lie  obtaiiuHl  that  nnswer,  may  it  pleoHc 
your  Honour,  b<>arinK  on  tluH  part  of  tlie  eaHe.  It  did  not  b(>ar 
directly  on  1H!)I,  or  any  other  year.  Fnini  thiH  Htatement  of 
the  liabitHof  theneal  wep't  a  eondition  that  tlie  liabitH  of  the 
wal  are  mifrratory  in  the  following  tlie  tinli  feed.  Then  my 
friend  dcHireH  to  know  liow  many  wain  ho  liad  seen  there, 
from  his  praetieal  experience,  and  how  tliey  can  be  approach- 
ed. 

The  GoniiniHHioner  on  the  part  of  the  T'nitcMl  StatoB: — All 
tlie  quefltions  have  been  answered  ho  far. 

Mr.  Iteique: — I  think  it  is  but  proper,  tiien*  beinK  so  much 
dimuHHion  on  tliat  jioint,  for  me  to  ntate  that  my  only  object 
is  to  cross-examine  the  witness  on  this  statement  he  hat* 
niad(>  on  direct  examination  that,  taking  such  and  such  con- 
diticms  as  were  mentioned  in  the  question  it  is  very  problemati- 
cal as  to  what  amount  of  s<>nls  would  be  caught,  and  I  think 
from  tliat  point  o'  view  without  enlargiuK  on  tlie  tleld  of  the 
exaniinntion,  my  lueation  is  altogether  a  proiHT  one  for 
(•loss-examination. 


6o       C'ross-examination  continued  by  Mr    Beiquo: 


I 


Q. — You  admit  that  every  year  you  went  to  Itehriiig  Sea 
you  found  a  large  quantity  of  seals,  both  iu  July  and  August? 
.\. — Found  a  larger  (piantitv  iu  the  vear  181)5  than  we  did  in 
lS!t4. 

Q. — Hut  in  both  years  you  found  a  large  quantity?  A. — 
Found  a  considerable  (luantity. 


MM 


'  ■! 


1  '  , 


,1 


t 

t 


; 


if'fnp]!"™; 


484 


10 


20 


40 


.•IJImimi 


50 


60 


(A.  U.  Ah'xaudt'i- — Citms.) 

Q. — Hoth  iu  July  and  August?  A. — Hoth  August  aud  Sep- 
tember, 18!)4,  a  few  in  July,  we  were  not  hunting  In  July,  we 
paiDsed  through  them  on  our  way  to  the  hunting  grounds. 

Q. — And  from  your  observation  you  have  ascertained,  ho 
far  as  you  were  able  to  ascertain,  that  from  year  to  year  they 
remained  in  Hehring  Sea  in  large  quantities  in  July  and  Aug- 
ust? A. — That  is  th«'  natural  sealing  grounds  dumg  those 
months  in  Hehring  Sen;  there  must  be  a  large  quantity  of 
fish  on  whi<-h  they  live  in  Behri;g  Sen  around  tlie  Piibylofl' 
Islands  at  that  time,  they  being  fish  eating  mammals,  of 
course  there  must  1m^  a  large  number  of  fish  in  order  for  them 
to  subsist. 

Q. — And  1  believe  you  have  ascertained  also  that  they  were 
not  easily  friglitened,  and  they  could  be  i-asily  a])proached  as 
a  rule?     A. — Hut  that  rule  is  subject  to  variations. 

Q. — Have  you  not  ascertain«>d  that,  and  have  you  not  made 
reports  to  that  efTect?  \. — In  n  great  many  cases  they  arc 
quite  e.isily  apjironched,  but  th«>re  are  times  when  they  are 
not. 

Q. — Have  you  not  niade  several  reports  to  your  (Sovern 
ment  to  tlu'  efTect  tliat  they  ar«'  easily  approached?  A. — 1 
think  you  will  find  <m  looking  at  the  reports  that  the  state 
ment  may  be  modified  some,  Imt  tliere  were  conditions  under 
which  they  can  be  easily  approached,  I  think  you  will  find 
that,  I  am  not  positive. 

Q. — Will  you  refer  to  the  statement  tliat  you  have  made 
as  (lublished  in  Senate  Document  No.  1.37,  page  19(!,  and  say 
if  you  have  not  made  the  following  statement  in  that  connec- 
tion when  you  were  on  the  ocean:  "We  soon  learned  that 
they  were  unusually  tame,  as  we  approached  near  enougli  to 
touch  one  with  a  spear  pole  that  was  in  the  boat.  Tliey 
showed  little  signs  of  fear,  notwithstanding  that  we  were 
within  3((  feet  of  them  for  fully  five  minutes"?  A. — Yes,  sir. 
that  is  correct. 

Q. — Did  you  also  make  the  following  statement?      (refer- 
ring to  Volume  S,  page  1(5.'?  of  the  American  reprint.) 
A. — That  is  correct. 

Q. — I  believe  that  you  made  this  report  also  on  page  IDS  of 
the  same  document  1.17  as  of  the  5th  of  .\ugust:  "A  large 
number  of  seals  was  noticed;  they  w«'re  frequently  8e«>n  play 
ing  about,  sometimes  on  the  crest  of  a  wave,  and  then  in  tlie 
hollow  of  a  sea.  They  seemingly  had  no  fixed  course,  but 
would  swim  in  one  direction  a  Imlf  a  mile  or  so,  return  and 
go  in  an  opposite  way.  It  is  more  than  likely,  had  the  wind 
been  blowing  a  strong  gale,  tliey  would  all  liave  been  bound 
in  one  direction."      Is  that  correct?      A. — It  is. 

Q. — .\nd  you  reported  also  the  effect  that  tliey  were  not 
easily  frigliteneti  by  vessels,  that  vessels  being  amongst  thcni 
liad  not  the  effect  of  frightening  tlu'Ui. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Will  you  show  that  report  to  the  witness. 

Mr.  Hel(|ue: — 1  ask  him  . 

Th«'  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — You  must 
sliow  it  to  the  court,  or  stmieone. 

Mr.  Hei(|ue: — 1  wonld  lilie  to  test  tlie  memory  of  the  wit 
ness  before  I  show  it  to  him. 

To  Witness: — Did  you  make  a  report  to  tliat  effect  tliat 
they  were  not  easily  frightened,  even  if  there  were  vess(4s 
*  amongst  them. 

The  4'oniniisi(uier  on  the  part  of  the  Vnited  States: — If  it 
is  ill  writing  Mr.  Heiqiie,  you  must  show  it  to  him  beftu'e  yoii 
ask  him? 


4^5 

(A.  |{.  Alcxtindcr — <'ro8H.) 

Sir  <'.  H.  TnpiM'r: — To  h'«t  IiIk  iiu'Iiumv. 

The  ConiniiBHioni'i-  on  the  part  of  the  I'liitetl  States:— You 
•■annot  tent  his  nieinory  in  tliat   way. 

Mr.  Heique:— Suppose  lie  had  made  no  report.  I  suppoH(>  I 
would  be  allowed  to  ask  him  whether  from  his  experience  he 
found  it  so. 


10 


To  Witness:— From  yonr  experience  is  it  not  a  fact  tluit 
I  lie  seals  are  not  easily  frightened  even  when  vessels  are 
amongst  them?  A.- -I  have  seen  them  on  s»'veral  occasions 
when  they  were  not  easily  frightened,  and  I  have  also  seen 
tliem  on  other  occassions  when  they  were. 

Q. — Did  you  jnake  the  follovung  statement  in  Document 
vn.  Part  2, 1'age  123.  "When  «|uite  near  them  one  of  the  seals 
lifted  its  head  up.  but  the  sight  of  the  vessel  caused  no  alarm. 
Having  no  boat  to  lower,  or  epenr  to  throw  a  loud  noise  was 
^Q  made  by  shouting  and  luxating  upon  a  tin  can.  This  did  not 
iiave  the  effect  of  frightening  them"  and  also  on  same  page. 
".\t  7  a.m..  a  sleeping  seal  was  observed  under  our  lee.  «-lose 
aboard,  but  not  in  a  position  to  detect  us  by  the  sense  of 
smell.  A  canoe  was  soon  launched  and  starttd  in  pursuit, 
but  the  short  choppy  sea  made  it  somewhat  difficult  to  catch 
it?  In  calm  weather,  or  at  times  when  there  is  only  a  light 
wind  stirring,  a  canw  in  approaching  a  seal  is  generally  pad- 
dled directly  from  the  leeward,  but  in  a  chojipy  sea  such  as 
prevailed  on  this  occasion,  an  Indian  always  ap]>roa<'he8  side 
30  to  the  wind,  which  brings  the  canoe  in  the  trough  of  the  sea 
and  prevents  it  from  making  any  noise  that  would  disturb 
the  'sleeper' ■'      A. — That  is  correct. 

Q. — On  page  l2!>  of  the  same  document,  did  you  malce  the 
following  statement,  "No  seal  life  was  observed  until  the  mid- 
dle of  the  day,  when  one  seal  was  noticed  asleep  not  far  from 
the  vessel,  and  so  soundly  that  the  fla])ping  of  the  canvas  did 
not  disturb  it.  It  was  cai)tured.  Its  stomach  was  empty?" 
v.— I  did. 

Q. — And  on  page  124  of  the  same  document,  did  you  make 
4°  the  following  statement?  "Late  in  the  afternoon  we  passed 
close  to  such  a  patch  covering  a  considerable  area,  in  which 
.six  seals  were  playing.  They  jKiid  no  attenti(m  to  the  ves- 
sel, although  within  KM)  yards  of  them.  A  hunter  with  a 
shot  gun  could  have  captured  two  or  three  of  the  number,  and 
iin  Indian  with  a  spear  would  have  secured  at  least  two?"  A. 
-I  did. 

y. — And  further.  "At  5  p  m.,  the  canoc-s  returned  with  a 
ratch  of  42  seals?"  A. — Yes,  that  is  correct. 
,  ^  y.— .Vnd  on  page  2<).'l,  of  the  first  part  of  the  same  docu- 
^*  Mient  did  you  make  the  following  statement?  "On  a  day  like 
this,  when  seals  showed  no  inclination  to  sleep,  shot  guns 
in  t)u>  hands  of  skilful  hunters  would  have  done  very  destruc- 
tive work  to  the  seal  herd,  for  exi)erienced  hunters  kill  near- 
ly, if  not  quite  as  many  tnivelling  seals  during  tlie  course 
•>f  a  season  as  sleeping  onep.?"'      A. — That  was  correct. 

Q.— Rased  on  vour  observations?      A. — Yes. 


Co 


The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — He  means 
by  that"destructive  work"  that  they  would  have  wounded 
iliein,  but  that  they  would  have  escaped. 

(i. — Do  you  mean  that  they  would  have  been  caught?  A. 
—I  mean  a  larg«»  jM-rcentage  of  them  would  have  been  caught, 
iliat  was  the  meaning  I  intended  to  convey. 

ti.— Did  you  not  also  find  at  times  that  even  the  firing  of 
'-'iins  would  not  disturb  them?  A.— 1  do  not  recollect  ot  a 
<  iise  of  that  kind,  where  the  firing  of  guns  would  not  disturb, 
MiilcHs  they  might  be  quite  a  distance  removed  from  the  ves- 


;P 


ill 


If 

■ 

I 

1 

;  4! 

11 

I 

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■     ■     '               .  ■  !■  -■    f 

i            1  ':     ''"'til'' 

i           1  i;     -.rvvir 

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1 ' 

■lli 


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MIMm!> 


20 


30 


486 

(A.  K.  AlfXiiudi'f — ('ro88.) 

8i>l,  or  iKtiit  iM>K8il)ly,  but  I  do  not  have  a  recollection  of  any- 
thing of  that  kind. 

Q. — Would  you  take  communication  of  Senate  DocumentK, 
Dock  137,  paragrapli  2.  pajjes  5(1,  51,  52,  53,  and  54  and  siiy 
if  the  information  therein  contained  wa«  obtained  from  you? 
A. — I  think  that  the  American  s(ho<mer  "Mary  Ellen"'  in 
1884,  1885,  1880  and  1887  was  not  obtained  by  me. 

Q. — No  portion  of  it?  A. — No  jwrtion  of  it,  but  the  "Fa- 
'°  vourite,"  1>.  McLean,  master,  188«  and  1887  and  the  "Henry 
Dennis,"  of  1891,  was  obtained  by  me.  The  "Mary  Ellen" 
was  not. 

Q. — What  data  had  you  to  >;ive  the  information  as  to  the 
"Favourite"  in  188G  and  1887?  A.— The  log  which  the  cap- 
tain gave  me. 

Q. — So  that  you  were  satisfied  that  the  figures  as  printed 
on  page  53  of  this  book  are  according  to  the  log  of  the  ves- 
sel for  the  two  years?  A. — I  got  it  from  the  log  and  submit- 
ted the  manuscript  to  the  printer.  If  they  made  a  mistake 
I  do  not  know,  I  have  not  the  notes  with  me  that  I  gave,  but  1 
could  obtain  them  probably. 

Q. — Where  is  the  log?  A. — The  log  was  in  the  Ciiptain's 
possession.  I  got  this  in  Oiinalaska  in  18i>5,  I  think,  on  board 
the  vessel  the  time  I  was  on  the  "Dora  Sieward." 

Q. — -Vnd  you  are  satisfied  that  is  correct?  A. — That  Is 
jirobably  correct. 

Q. — Now  yoti  say  that  you  examined  the  "(/'arolena"  in 
1888?  What  tim<>  of  the  yvuv  was  it  you  examined  her?  A. 
— That  was  along  abotit  the  middle  of  July,  I  slumld  think. 

(i. — Were  you  alone  when  you  examined  her?    A. — No,  sir. 

(2. — With  whom  were  you?  A. — I  was  in  company  with 
Captain  Daniel  of  the  "Albatross,"  C  II.  Townsend,  whose 
name  is  there;  Lieut.  Pamister  of  the  Navy;  Lieut.  Johnston 
and  some  sailors. 

Q. — Would  you  swear  that  the  "Carolena"  was  not  bult 
with  Oregon  pine  or  Douglas  flr?  A. — I  would  not  swear 
she  was  not  built  of  it. 

Q. — You  did  not  lind  that  she  was  not  built  of  that  kind  of 
wood?    A. — I  think  she  was  built  of  s<»me  kind  of  soft  wood. 

Q. — Do  you  call  Oregon  pine  soft  wood?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Do  you  call  Douglas  flr  soft  wood  also?  A. — It  comes 
under  the  head  of  soft  wood. 

Q. — When  you  saw  the  "Carolena"  she  was  in  a  dilapidated 
condition,  was  she  not?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

(j. — She  had  been  lying  on  the  beach,  from  the  best  of  your 
information,  since  188(5?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

y. — Without  any  attention  being  given  to  her?  .\. — There 
was  no  attention  given  to  her  to  my  knowledge. 

Q — And  the  value  that  you  put  on  her  is  from  the  exam- 
inati(,n  that  you  had  made  of  her  then?  A. — Yes.  sir,  as  com 
pared  with  other  vessels  of  a  similar  type  and  age. 

Q. — Can  you  s|M'ak  from  actual  knowledge  of  any  vessel 
that  you  would  cttmpare  with  the  "Carolena" — the  cost  of 
building  any  other  vessel  of  the  same  type  or  same  age  that 
would  compare  with  the  "Carolena"?  Can  you  speak  from 
actual  knowledge?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

il- — Well,  what  vt'ssel?  A. — \  vessel  that  my  father  own 
ed  called  the  "Village."  She  was  a  vessel  probably  a  little 
60  larger  than  the  "Carolena"  but  of  the  same  type,  iind  built 
probably  about  the  same  time. 

Q. — Huilt  where?  A.— I  think  slu'  was  built  in  Essex. 
Massachussetts,  but  I  am  not  positive  as  to  that. 

Q. — By  whom  was  she  built?  A. — I  cannot  tell  you  by 
name. 

Q. — You  can  not  sp4>nk  as  to  the  cost  of  building  that  other 
vessel?      A. — I  know  what  she  was  sold  for  and  what  she 


40 


50 


10 


20 


30 


40 


r,o 


48; 

(A.  I{.  Ah'Xandci' — Cross.) 

was  l)()U(;lit  for  svlicn  slu*  was  about  tlic  saiiu-  afjt*  as  tlie 
"("arolena." 

Q. — Whpr«»  was  slic  sold?  A. — In  (lloufcstcr.  Massachns- 
st'tts. 

Q.— When?  A.— About  1H7H  or  1«7!».  I  should  think 
about  tliat. 

Q. — And  vou  base  the  valuation  that  you  juit  upon  thf 
"Carolina"  on  the  sale  of  that  vessel?  A. — Well.  I  have  her 
in  ni.v  mind  now. 

(l. — Have  you  in  your  mind  any  other  vessel  which  you  lan 
[)V\nii  forward  as  a  point  of  comparison  with  the  "("arolena"? 
.\. — Yes.  I  have  (juite  a  number  of  veswls  in  my  mind  which 
I  could  compare. 

il. — What  are  they?  A. — \'essels  of  a  similar  size  and 
about  the  same  a^e. 

y. — What  are  they?     \. — Fishinjj  vessels. 

{}. — What  name?     \. — The  "Komp"  for  one. 

t^. — What  other?  .\. — A  vessel  bv  the  name  of  the  "Island 
Melle." 

(i. — Have  you  any  personal  knowledge  as  to  the  cost  of 
these  two  vessels?     A. — I  know  what  they  sold  foi-. 

y.— Where?     A.— In  (Moucester.  Mass. 

(i.— When?  A.— The  "Island  Helle'  was  sold  in  ISH2  and 
she  was  about  the  same  siz»>  as  the  "rarolena."  The  "Romj)" 
was,  I  believe,  sold  one  or  two  years  earlier  than  that  dat«'. 

Q. — And  it  is  on  that  also  that  you  base  your  valuation? 
.\. — Possibly  on  that. 

(■i- — They  were  old  .•i>!sel8?     A. — They  were  (dd  vessels. 

Q. — And  they  were  sold  as  second  hand  vessels?  A. — 
Yes,  sir.  thev  were  a  similar  tvpe  to  the  one  we  are  spenkin); 
of. 

Q. — And  they  were  sold  on  the  eastern  coast?     A. — Yes. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — What 
price  did  these  vessels  sell  for?  \. — The  "Village"  I  have 
reference  to  probably  mit;;ht  have  been  ten  tons  lartjer  than 
the  "Carolenn."  She  sold  for  fl.(MM».  She  was  about  the 
same  age  as  the  "Carolena"  when  I  saw  her.  The  "Komp." 
when  I  saw  her.  sold  for  fl.SOO  about.  I  am  not  quite  posi- 
tive. 

.Mr.  neicpie: — In  imikintj  your  valuation  of  the 
•Cantlena"  did  you  bear  in  mind  that  she  had  been  practi- 
cally rebuilt  in  1H,S4?  .\. — Well.  jud(;in^  frcmi  her  l(M»ks 
when  I  saw  her,  if  she  had  lu'cn  re-built  in  1884,  the  work  was 
not  very  substantially  done. 

(i. — You  did  not  take  the  r«' building  into  consideration  in 
making  your  valuation?  A. — I  am  taking  her  as  she  was  at 
that  time  basing  it  on  what  she  was  in  ISSti  and  what  I  saw- 
in  1888. 

ti- — When  you  saw  her  yoti  did  not  know  that  she  had  been 
I)ractically  rebuilt  in  1884?      A.— No.  sir. 

(I — Therefore  you  did  not  take  that  into  consideration? 
A  — Xot  at  that  time.  There  was  no  evidence  of  it  that  I 
•■on Id  see. 

Q. — Do  you  know  Mr.  Williams,  whose  name  api)eai-s  here? 
.\.— He  was  sjx'cial  agent,  I  think,  on  the  Pribvloff  Islands. 
I  met  him. 

<i.— Do  you  know  if  he  has  any  experience  as  to  the  value 
of  vessels?      \.—\  do  not  know. 

Q— ^Vell  now.  referring  to  this  document,  doc.  137,  para- 
'Ari\]A\  two.  jmges  \V\  and  114.  - — . 

The  Cmnmissioner  on  the  jmrt  of  the  Cnited  States; — 
What  year  is  that? 

Mr.  Heique:— That  is  in  181>4. 


iii 


n 


,!!il!i. 


i-,1; 


ji'H      ,1 


li"  i.,   1     "I  i'    !■  : !  ■  •' 


•'li  ' 


lO 


488 

(A.  U.  Alcxiindi'i- — CroHH.) 
Q. — A  S«'nat<'  document  is  it? 
Mr.  Bt'i(HK': — Yen,  it  is  liis  rc'port. 

To  Witness: — Q. — Look  at  this  docuniont  and  I  will  read 
the  foll<»wiu{;  from  your  report: 

"On  the  next  day  54.H  north  latitude,  liilA  west,  we  navv 
our  first  seals,  20  in  number,  12  of  which  were  sleepers.  In 
the  afternoon  we  saw  six  seals,  about  half  a  mile  from  tlie 
vessel,  feeding  in  a  bunch  of  seaweed.  Tlie  sea  at  that  time 
was  perfectly  smooth  with  a  liftht  air  astern.  The  two 
hunters  and  myself  started  out  in  a  boat  to  watch  them  and 
to  see  how  near  we  could  approach  without  disturbing  tliem. 
We  soon  learned  they  were  unusually  tame  as  we  approaclied 
near  enough  to  touch  one  with  a  spear  pole.  They  show- 
ed little  sense  of  fear,  notwithstanding  we  were  within  about 
;<(•  feet  of  them  for  about  ten  minuteH,  diving  under  llie  sci 
weed  and  constantly  thrusting  their  heads  through.  It 
20  seemed  to  atford  them  great  pleasure.  They  paid  little  at 
tention  to  us  and  seemed  almost  indifferent  as  to  how  near 
we  approa<'hed  as  we  did  freciuently.  This  caused  the  hunt- 
ers to  exclaim  several  times:  'if  we  onlv  had  a  gun  we  could 
kill  them  all.' " 

Is  that  correct  ?    A. — Yes. 

Q. — On  page  116  of  the  same  volume,  did  you  make  the 
folowing   r»'port : 

"Every  hunter  reported  s»*als  numerous  about  half  of  fhe 
20  number  being  asleep.  They  slept  in  bunches  of  six  and 
eight,  and  when  aroused  from  their  slumbers  were  very  tame, 
but  owing  to  the  inexperience  of  hunters  with  spears,  in  a 
comparatively  rough  sea,  the  sucessfiil  throws  were  few  and 
far  between.  Had  the  hunters  been  provided  with  shotguns 
instead  of  spears  it  is  saf(;  to  say  tliat  a  liundred  or  more 
seals  would  be  nearer  the  day's  catch."  Did  you  make  that 
report?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — And  you  were  referring  to  white  hunters?  A. — These 
were  white  hunters  in  the  boat  with  spears. 

Q. — You  consider  that  white  hunters  with  guns  would  have 
more  suc-cess  than  with  spears?    A. — I  should  think  so. 

Q. — For  how  Tuany  years  have  you  been  an  employe  of  the 
I'nited  States  Oovernment?    A. — Since  the  spring  of\18Sri. 

Q.— And  you  are  still  In  their  employ?  A. — Still  in  their 
employ,  yes. 

Q. — And  you  have  helped  in  preparing  the  defence  of  tlw 
United  States?  Yon  have  bci'u  collecting  data  and  making 
reports  on  tlu'  various  forms  of  seal  life?  A. — I  have  taken 
no  action  In  the  case.  I  have  furnihsed  data  and  made  inv 
reports,  that  is  all. 

Q. — You  have  stated  that  when  you  examin(>d  the  "Parn 
lena"  you  did  not  notice  that  slie  had  any  copper  fastenings? 
A. — I  did  not  see  any.  I  would  not  swear  that  slie  had 
none  in  any  pan  of  her,  but  I  did  not  s«'e  any.      I  saw  spikes. 

Q. — She  may  have  had  without  your  seeing?    A. — Possi 

bly,  but  she  was  not  all  copper  fa8t«'ned.      There  were  soiiie 

places  wlu'rt'   I  could   see  spikes,  and  they  sur«»ly  were  not 

Co  <'<>PP'''"-    Possibly  there  might  be  <'oj>]>»'r  in  her,  but  she  was 

not  what  I  would  call  a  copper-fastened  vessel. 

Q. — You  said  that  her  lin«'s  were  |)rimitive  as  compared  to 
modern  schooners?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  do  you  mean  by  that?  A. — She  was  what  they 
call  an  old-fasiiioned  typ<'.  She  was  full  bow.  She  was 
full  all  over.  She  had  but  very  litth'  dead  rise,  and  she  had 
very  full  lines  from  bow  to  aft  all  over.  She  was  what  you 
would  call  an  old-fashioned  type  of  vessel. 


40 


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1<1 


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VI 


60 


(A.  |{.  Aloxaudt'r — ('rosst  K«' direct.) 

Q. — >\'ould  .you  say  from  what  you  have  soen  that  sho  wan 
not  a  fast  salltT?  A. — She  could  not  be  couHidertMl  a  fast 
saih'r,  never  havtuii;  seen  her  sail,  but  JHd(ring  from  her  lines. 

Q. — If,  as  a  mutter  of  fact,  she  was  found  to  be  a  fast  sailer, 
you  would  not  be  a  good  judge  as  to  the  proper  lines  of  a 
vessel?  A. — If  she  were  a  fast  wiiler  1  would  not  \m'  a  good 
judge,  but  I  doubt  it. 

Q. — You  doubt  it?  A. — 1  doubt  she  was  a  good  sailer, 
compared  with  the  modern  vessels.  I  am  not  comparing 
her  with  her  own  class.  I  am  comparing  her  with  the  mod- 
ern type  of  vessels  about  which  you  spoke. 

Q. — What  vessels  that  are  known  here  would  you  mention 
as  being  modern  and  fast  sailers?  A. — I  do  nnot  know  any 
modern  fast  sailers  to  compare  in  size  with  her,  but  take  a 
tyjie  of  vessel  hke  the  "Agnes  Macdonald''  or  the  "Zillah 
May,"  belonging  to  this  port,  a  little  larger  boat. 

Q. — You  cannot  name  any  British  Columbia  schoimers  that 
you  consider  fast  sailers?  A. — The  "Agnes  Macdonald"  is 
probably  a  fast  sailer. 

Q.— She  is  a  big  vessel?  A.— Take  the  "Zillah  May."  Slie 
is  here. 

Q. — What  tonnage  is  she?    A. — I  think  about  60  tons. 

Q. — What  vessel  about  the  tonnage  of  the  "Carolena" 
would  you  mention  as  being  a  faster  sailer,  in  your  opinion? 
A. — I  do  not  know  of  any  other  vessel  of  about  that  tonnage 
in  British  Columbia  that  is  a  fast  sailer. 

Q. — Do  you  know  any  in  Ran  Francisco?  A. — The  nearest 
approach  of  any  vessel  that  I  know  around  here  of  a  very 
good  sailer  would  be  the  Casco,  and  she  is  even  larger. 

(J. — What  tonnage  was  she?  A. — I  should  judge  she  was 
nearly  60  tons  jtossibly. 

Q. — So  that  you  cannot  name  any  vessel  about  here  from 
.'to  to  40  tons  timt  you  consider  good  sailers?  A. — I  do  not 
know  of  any. 

Re-I)ir«»ct  Examinatitm  by  Mr.  Lansing. 

Q. — Mr.  Alexander,  did  you  ever  s«»e  ('apt.  Alexander 
-McLean?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — How  long  ago?  A. — I  saw  him  a  year  ago  this  sum- 
mer. 

Q. — Was  that  th«>  first  time?  A. — I  have  seen  him,  but 
not  to  speak  to  him.  I  have  st'en  him  on  the  street.  He 
has  been  pointed  out  to  m«*. 

i}. — Did  you  obtain  any  data  from  him  in  regard  to  these 
logs  in  question?       A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — He  was  not  the  Captain  McLean  tnnn  whom  you  re- 
ceived them?      \o,  sir. 

Q. — Was  it  from  another  Captain  McLean  that  you  ob- 
tained these  figures?      A. — Of  what  vessel  do  yon  speak? 

(i. — I  speak  of  the  Canadian  schooner  "Favourite"'  marked 
in  the  report  as  D.  M<-Lean.  master,  18S6?  A. — Yes,  1  ob- 
tained the  flguivs  which  apjtear  here  from  (^ai)tain  McLean 
of  the  "Favourite."       I  obtained  them  at  Ounalaska  in  ISO.^. 

il. — Xot  from  Captain  Alexander  Mcl><'an,  and  not  from 
Ca]itain  Daniel  McLean?  A. — \o,  I  never  saw  that  gentle- 
man. The  captain  I  had  refer»'noe  to  was  the  captain  of 
the  "Favourite." 

Q. — Ca|)tain  Laughlin  McLean,  was  it  not?  A. — 1  cannot 
say  as  to  that,  but  I  think  he  is  still  captain  of  the  "Favour- 
ite." 

<J. — Did  you  know  that  Captain  Alexander  McLean  was 
captain  of  the  "Favourite"  in  1886.      .\.— No,  sir. 

Q. — What  vear  did  vou  sav  vou  obtained  these?  A. — In 
18!).'-.. 

O. — In  wgard  to  the  ouotations  from  your  report,  upon 
wliidi  you  have  been  examinwl,  is  It  or  not  tlie  custom  to  make 


I  !i 


!,  m 


iiiii 

M 

490 


'i)iM(M 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


(A.  U.  Alexander — Ke-direct — Ileci-osB.) 

notes  of  unuHUiil  events?  A. —  I  alwii.VH  make  a  note  of  an 
unuHual  event. 

Q. — And  not  of  tlie  ordinary,  as  a  rule?      A. — No.  sir. 

tj. — And  therefore  would  you  say  that  thew  (]uotationH 
that  have  been  shown  you  are  tisual  or  unusual?  A. — They 
nre  unusual  events,  and  that  is  why  I  made  a  note  «»f  them. 

Q. — Did  you  ffive  them  as  illustrations  of  unusual  events? 
A. — 1  did,  it  would  appear  so. 

Re-eroHs-examination  by  Mr.  Heicpie. 

Q. — Would  you  show  in  this  report  any  mention  that  the 
facts  which  you  mention  in  your  report  were  unusual  facts? 
A. — I  do  not  know  if  it  mentions  that  in  the  exact  lanKuap-. 

Q. — Did  you  intend  to  make  to  your  government  a  report 
based  on  unusual  fa<'ts?  A. — I  pive  tlieni  all  the  facts  I 
«'ould  get  a  hold  of  either  usual  or  unusual;  anythinji  that 
came. 

Q. — Hift  catches  and  small?  A. — All  the  same;  there  was 
no  partiality. 

Q. — Nothing  appears  in  these  reports  to  which  we  have 
referred  tending  to  show  that  these  were  unusual  events? 

Mr.  Lansing: — I  object  to  that  question.  It  would  be  ne- 
cessary to  put  in  the  whole  rejiort  before  this  (^ommisRion 
in  order  to  show  that. 

Mr.  Heique: — The  witness  has  only  to  refer  to  the  reports 
if  he  wants  to  answer  my  (juestion.  Would  you  like  the  re- 
port to  enable  you  to  answer  my  (piestion? 

Witness- — It  would  take  a  long  time  to  hunt  up  what  I 
want.  Pleose  ask  your  q\u'Stion  direct  to  me  again  so  that 
I  can  understand. 

The  (juestion  was  read  to  witness. 

A. — I  think  frcmi  the  way  these  sentences  were  put  in  that 
it  did  show  that  they  were  something  of  not  a  <-ommon  occur- 
rence. 

Q. — t'an  you  refer  us  to  any  portion  of  your  reports  that 
would  substan''ate  (»r  justify  the  answer  that  you  have 
given?  A. — I  think  if  that  report  should  be  overhauled 
carefully  you  will  tind  instances  there  where  seals  were 
equally  as  wild  as  yo)i  found  them  tante  in  that  sentence.  I 
cannot  point  to  any  paragraph  or  page.  I  think  you  will 
find  somewhere  embodied  in  that  ivport,  that  which  shows 
the  other  side  as  well  as  this.  I  would  have  to  read  it  all 
through  in  order  to  tind  it  out. 

Q. — Hut  you  cannot  point  to  any  part?  .\. — \o.  not  to 
any  particular  pla<e,  I  cannot.  It  is  two  or  three  years  ago 
and  I  have  never  looked  at  that  since. 

By  Mr.  Dickinson; — Q. — That  one  seal  that  you  have  re- 
ferred to  that  you  could  not  waken  by  beating  on  a  tin  pan, 
did  you  remark  that  you  found  nothing  in  its  stomach  or  was 
the  seal  sick? 

Witness: — \o.  why  I  mentioned  that  fact  was  this:  When 
you  find  seals  with  a  full  stomach  as  a  nile  they  sl(>ep  more 
soundly  than  on  an  empty  stomach. 

Q. — I  did  not  know  Init  that  this  seal  might  be  ill  when 
you  could  not  wake  him  u|)  with  a  tin  pan.  .V. — He  slept 
well,  that  is  all. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States:— 
What  is  your  precise  ofticial  position,  and  what  are  your  otti- 
cial  duties? 

The  witness:— On  the  ".Ulialross." 


10 


20 


30 


40 


60 


4<jl 

(A.   n.   AlfXiiinlfi— r.   K.   Ka.viMii— Dircch) 

Th«'  rominissioiifi'  on  the  piirt  nf  tin*  riiitcd  KtatcK; — V»*s, 
wliat  J8  you  otticial  |M»siti«ii  tlicrc? 

Tlu'  witiK'ss: — WIm'ii  I  am  on  tlic  "AllmtrosH"  inv  jtosi- 
lion  is  Hslu'ry  »'X|M'rt.  Hut  whon  I  am  on  hIkh*-  duly  I  can- 
not t'xartly  Ntat*>  what.  I  am  Htill  on  tli«'  books  as  fishery 
•'XjM'rt  of  the  "Albatross."  but  I  am  doint;  different  work.  I 
am  now  investiniitinji  reports  on  the  northwest  «'oast  as  n*- 
{jards  the  abundance  (»f  Ash  and  so  on. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — Q. — 
Are  yonr  headipiarters  at  Hlaine? 

Witness: — I  luive  been  at  Khiine  hist  summer  investiK«it- 
uifi  fish<'ries  there.       My  ])rinci]ml  phice  w  Seattle. 

The  Comnnssicmer  on  the  part  of  tlie  I'nited  States: — 
What  are  the  precise  duties  of  your  position? 

Witness: — On  the  "Albatr<»ss"  Mr.  Townsend  and  I  work 
toffether;  he  belou^H  to  the  scientitic  corps,  beinp  the  analyst 
in  charge.  We  both  collect  together  all  species  (»f  flsh  and 
all  other  animals  that  we  can.  and  when  we  are  at  sea  there 
is  a  good  'deal  of  deep  sea  dredging  carried  on  and  we  gather 
up  the  contents  of  tlu'  bag  which  goes  to  the  bottom  and  take 
it  to  the  laboratory  and  classify  it  and  send  it  to  Washing- 
ton. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — 
What  are  you  called,  in  a  general  way? 

Witness: — Generally,  we  might  be  called  collectors. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — (Jet- 
ting up  facts. 

Witness: — Getting  all  data  and  information  possible  bear- 
ing on  the  subject. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — I  suppoM> 
Mr.  Alexander,  we  are  to  understand  that  the  reports  that 
you  made,  to  the  ext«'nt  that  they  have  been  read,  narrated 
true  circumstances?      Of  course  you  will  say  yes. 

Witness: — They  are  truthful  to  the  extent  they  go  and  sub- 
ject t(»  any  qualifications. 

The  Conimissi<mer  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — You  re- 
ported facts.  1  will  expect  you  to  say  so,  ctf  course,  because 
that  is  what  any  li<ui«'st  man  would  do. 

The  examination  of  the  witness  closed. 

Mr.  Itodwell : — I  beg  to  hand  in  for  the  purpoe  of  filing, 
the  extract  from  Mr.  Hragg's  book  which  has  been  referred 

to. 

Docutnent  filed  as  P^xhibit  27  G.  B..  Claim  No.  1. 

Mr.  Charles  K.  Kaynor  was  called  as  a  witness  on  the  part 
of  tlu'  I'nited  States,  and  duly  sworn. 

Kxainination  in  chief  by  Mr.  Warren. 

Q. — Capt.  Raynor,  where  w«'re  yo\i  born?  \. — I  was  b<»rn 
near  the  <ity  of  New  York.  Long  Island. 

Q. — When  did  you  first  engage  in  the  business  which  took 
you  on  the  sea?      A.— Tn  IHfiK 

Q. — Wlien  did  vou  come  around  to  San  Francisco?  A. — • 
In  1871, 


l:l":i 


'Viir 


f  ""■" 


•illMi'ii 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


492 

(('.  K.  KiiyiuH- — IMroct.) 

(i. — Did  you  Hail  out  of  San  Frau«im-o  nhortly  after  youi- 
arrival  on  a  dwp  wat«'r  vi'swl?  A. — 1  Hailed'out  ofHaii 
Francisco  aj^aiu  in  about  two  weeks. 

Q- — Have  ,vou  been  eufjajjed  as  a  master  mariner  or  n  some 
capacity  on  a  vessel  from  that  day  until  the  ])r4>s«>nt  time? 
A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Well,  a  great  portion  of  the  time?  A.— I  believe  the 
first  vessel  I  was  master  of  was  in  1^75. 

Q. — And  from  what  port  did  yon  sail?  A. — From  San 
Francisco. 

Q. — You  have  been  sailing  j'ver  since  you  came  around? 
A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — And  you  have  b«H'n  a  master  how  lone?  A. — Since 
1875. 

Q. — What  was  the  first  year  vou  had  charge  of  a  sealing 
vessel?      A.— In  188(i. 

Q- — Prior  to  that  time  had  yon  been  out  on  any  fishing 
vessel  or  on  any  voyage  that  would  take  you  among  the  seals 
or  into  Behrng  Sea?  A.— Yes,  sir;  I  had  been  sailing  mas 
ter  of  the  schooner  "Otter"  out  of  San  Francisco  in   IHHn? 

Q. — Did  you  go  into  the  Behring  Sea?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — How  many  years  were  you  in  the  Hehring  Sea  between 
188()  and  1886?       A.— Three  years. 

Q. — What  boat  were  you  on  in  188(!?  A. — The  "San  Die- 
go." 

Q.— What  boat  were  you  on  in  1H87?  A.— The  "Allie  I.  Al 
ger." 

Q. — As  master?      .\. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Where  did  you  sail  from?  A. — Seattle.  That  is,  the 
vessel  was  built  at  Seattle,  but  I  went  to  San  Francisco  and 
fitted  her  up. 

Q. — You  were  master  of  the  "San  Diego"  in  188fi?  A.— 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.— What  boat  were  yo.-  sailing  on  In  1S88?  A. — 1  was 
on  the  "Alger." 

Q.— And  in  1S89?  A.— I  was  in  th«'  ".lames  Hamilton 
I^wis." 

Q. — As  master  both  years?      A. — Yes. 

Q.— The  "James  Haiuilt<m  l^ewls"  was  the  old  "Ada?"  A. 
—Yes. 

Q. — In  1890  what  boat  were  yon  in?  A. — I  was  sailing 
from  San  Francisco  down  the  coast;  I  was  in  the  merchant 
service. 

Q. — In  1891  were  you  in  any  sealing  vessel.  Captain?  A. 
— No,  sir,  I  have  not  been  sealing  since  18H9. 

Q. — Were  you  in  Victoria  in  18SG?      A. — No,  sir,  I  was  not. 

Q. — Were  vou  here  in  18H,'i?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q.— Or  in  1887?      A.— No,  sir. 

Q. — What  experience  did  you  have  in  those  days  with  re- 
gard to  the  conbtruction  of  vessels?  I  believe  you  snperln 
tended  tV.e  construction  of  the  "Allie  I.  .Mger,"  did  you  not? 
A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q.— Where?       A.— At   SeaUle. 

Q. — Did  you  Know  the  cost  and  the  quality  of  all  the  mate- 
rial that  went  into  her?      A. — Y«'S,  sir;  I  bought  it. 

Q. — Were  you  ac(]ualuted  with  tlu'  gen«'rnl  market  for  the 
sale  of  vessels  of  the  class  largely  used  for  the  purpose  of 
sealing  In  the  years  188f5  .and  1887?  A.— Well,  I  have  a  gen 
eral  knowledge  of  it.  I  nev«'r  bought  any  of  this  kind  of  ves- 
sels myself  or  sold  any  of  them. 

Q. — Wei-e  you  posted  as  to  the  current  prices,  or  reported 
prices  in  these  y«'arH?  .\. — Yes,  I  heard  it  talked  al>o"t 
sometimes. 

Q. — Did  you  outfit  the  various  ships  in  which  you  sailed 
yourself?      .\.  — I  always  nuide  out  the  list  for  provisions  and 


10 


493 

(('.  K.  Kiivuoi— Dimt.) 

uutflt  iu  gfiivral.  and  uIho  HiKiicd  the  billH  bcfuiv  the.v  wi>ro 
puld. 

Q. — So  that  you  wen-  ai-qnaintcd  with  the  prift'H  of  the 
various  articles  whUii  went  on  board  the  ship?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Are  you  able  to  dlHtlnguish  between  what  constitutes 
a  ship's  outfit? 

Mr.  Peters: — Is  tills  outfit  at  Wan  Frsincisfo  or  in  Victoria? 

Mr.  Warren :— When  we  come  to  details  I  will  tell  .vou.  I 
am  asking  his  experience. 

To  the  witness: 

Q. — I  believe  you  outfitted  always  at  San  Francisco  or  Re 
attle,  did  you  not?  A. — I  did. 

Q. — I  suppose.  Captain,  that  you  are  acquainted  with  the 
(ietails  of  a  sealing  outfit?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i. — And  also  what  belongs  to  the  ship?       A. — Yes,  sir. 
20       Q. — And  are  able  to  distinguish  what  belongs  to  the  8hi[i 
from  what  belongs  to  the  scaling  outfit?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i. — You  say  tliat  you  never  bought  and  sold  any  vessel, 
hut  you  were  aware  of  the  valuation  placed  on  the  "Allle  I. 
.Mger"  and  the  "James  Hamilton  Lewis"  by  the  owners?  A. 
— Yes.  sir. 

(i. — And  you  have  been  aware  of  the  value  placed  upon 
otlier  vessels  by  their  owners?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

ii. — In  San  Francisc«>  and  Seattle?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

{}. — Were  you  ax-cpiainted  with  the  vessels  that  were  seal- 
30  ing  out  of  th«'  jmrt  of  San  Francisco  In  1880?      A.— I  think 
I   can   recollect  the  most  of  them. 

Q. — If  you  can  remember  the  vessels  of  the  class  8U<'h  as 
were  used  for  sealing  purpo8«*8  that  sailed  out  of  the  ports 
of  San  Francisco  and  S«nittle  in  the  years  188(i  and  1887,  will 
you  state  them?  A. — Out  of  San  Francisi-o  there  was  the 
"Otter,"  the  "City  of  San  Diego,"  tlie  "San  Uiego,"  t'  "Van- 
dcrbilt." 

Q._The  "Charles  (5.  Wilson?"'       A.— Yes,  sir. 

(}. — The  "Annu"?"  A. — I  am  not  sure  whether  the  "Annie" 
■♦°   scaled  in  188(i  or  not.       I  think  she  made  her  first  season  In 
1S87. 

ii. — .My  (|U(>sti4m  covers  both  years,  188fi  and  1887?  A. — In 
1887  there  was  the  ".\nnie"  and  the  "San  Jose,"  I  do  not  re- 
member an}-  more  out  of  San  Francisco  as  I  know. 

(i.— The  "Hosie  Sjmrks?"       .\.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — The  "Lily  L,"  do  you  know  her?      A. — Yes,  sir,  I  know 


iicr. 

Q.— The  "Lookout?" 

Q.— The  "Laura?" 

(i.— The  "Lottie?" 

(2.— The 

(i.— The 

(i.— The 

(i.— The 

(i.— Slu 

(i.— The  "Challenge'/"      A.— She  saih'd  from  Seattle, 


A. — Yes,  sir. 
A. — Yes,  si  I'. 
.\. — I  don't  remember 
'La  Ninfa?"      .\. — Yes,  sir. 
'Kate  and  Ann'/"'      A. — Yes 
"Helen   Blum?"       A. — Yes, 
"Kllen'/"     A. — Yes,  sir. 
was  a  small  boat,  I  believe? 


t,  sir. 
sir. 


her. 

remember  her. 
remember  her. 


\. — Yes,  sir. 


ti. — The  "Angel  Uollie,"  do  you  remember  her?      A. — Yes, 


su'. 


6o 


A. — No,  sir,  I 


Q. — The  "Alpha."  do  y<»u  remember  her? 
don't. 

(i. — What  boats  were  sailing  out  of  the  im)^  of  Seattle  in 
tlicse  years  other  rhan  those  you  have  given?  A. — I  believe 
lliey  were  tlu'  ".Mger"  and  tlie  ''TeamM',"  I  think. 

Q. — What  was  the  first  year  the  "Alg«'r''  was  out?  .\. — 
Tliat  was  in  1887. 

(i.— She  was  built  at  Seattle,  I  tliink?  A.— Huilt  at  Pe- 
utile. 


.  'Si 


if  m 

'.■■■■  ii':, 
.1  '■ 


W^ 


]':-■': 

'•':     1 

1-- 

i  !^- 

: 

i 

.Jilii 

i 

Msfi  1 

4y4 


'lliMiMi 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


so 


60 


(«'.  K.  Ua.vmii— IMriMt.j 

H. — III  till'  vciii'H  IXHW  aiul  1HH7  .V()ii  were  frtMpnMitl.v  in 
San  Fraiiclmoi  (»r  at  h'aHt  .von  wcif  tlinc  pi'«'|>ai-iiit;  to  p*  to 
M«'a,  wt'i'c  ,v(Mi  not?       A. — V»'s.  wir. 

(i. — And  you  wt-ic  a<'(|iiainttMl  with  the  uiai'kot  vi;1ih'  of 
v«'hh*'Ih  tlu*r<'.  HiK-li  as  \v«-i-(>  til  tod  out  to  Im'  uHcd  for  walini^ 
piir]K)H«-H?      A. —  V»'».  sir. 

ii. —  IMd  vou  i<now  lilt'  "t'aroit'na?"  A. — Vcs,  sir.  I  liavc 
seen  tin-  "Carolcna." 

(i. — 1  iK'licvt'  vou  were  Mcizcd  on  tlic  "San  Dii'fto"  about 
th«'  Hjunc  tiuM'  as  tin*  "t'ai<dcua?  A. — V*'s,  sir.  a  few  days 
l»«'for»'. 

Q. — And  \()U  \vi'i<'  talit'ii  to  ()unalasl<a  jtrior  to  tlic  tiuH' 
tlu'  "('arolcna"  was  talicn  in  tlicn'?       A. — Y»*s,  sir. 

ii. — Were  you  on  l)oard  I  lit-  "<*aroI«'na"  tin'  tirst  day  slu- 
arrived  at  Ounalaslva?       A. — I  was. 

ii. — Ht'foro  anything  liad  liocn  tai»«'n  otf  her?  A. — Ves.  sir. 

ii. — You  ai-c  jiositivc  alMHit  that,  are  you?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

ii. — What  did  you  jjo  on  hoard  the  "Carolena"'  for.  Cap- 
tain? A. — Well,  I  just  went  on  beard  to  see  the  eaptain, 
and  out  of  (;eneral  turiosity. 

Q. — You  w<'re  all  in  the  siinie  boat,  then?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  had  been   seized?       .\. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — What  other  boats  eanie  in  at  the  time  of  the  "Caro- 
lenu?"       A.     The  "Thornton"  and  the  "Onward." 

Q. — IMd  you  see  them  come  into  the  harbor,  or  did  they 
eonie  in  at  ni^lit  time?  A. — They  came  in  at  tlie  nipht 
time,  or  what  we  call  the  nijiht.  They  came  in  somewhat 
between  ten  in  the  evening  and  eip;ht  next  nHtrnin^;  what 
time  I  cannot  exactly  say.  because  1  was  sleeping. 

Q. — \Yhere  was  the  "Carolena"  when  you  first  sjiw  her? 
A. — She  was  lyinn  at  anchor  in  Ounalaska  harbor. 

Q. — Who  was  the  ca])tain  and  who  was  the  mate?  A. — 
('aptain  Ofjilvie  was  the  captain  of  her.  and  a  nian  by  the 
name  (»f  Itlake  was  mate. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  whether  she  carried  white  m«'n  or 
Indians?       .\. — She  carried   white  men. 

ii. — Were  you  arrested  up  tlu're  in  common  with  these 
men?       .\. — Yes.  sir. 

ii. — At  Sitka  I  believe  that  was?       .\. — Yes.  sir.  at  Sitka. 

Q. — While  the  men  were  at  Ounalaska  were  Captain  Ofjil 
vie  or  Mate  HIake  contined  in  any  way  as  far  as  yoti  know. 
A. — >r<).  sir,  not  that  I  heard  of. 

Q. — Were  you  contined?       A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — I  believe  yon  took  the  crews  of  the  "Thornt<m"  and 
"Onward"  down  to  Sitka  on  your  boat,  did  yon  not?  A. — 
Yes.  isir;  that  is  the  Indians,  and  one  white  man  from  each 
vessel. 

Q. — l>id  you  take  the  mate.  Markelich.  who  has  testified 
in  this  case  to  Sitka?       A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — At  Ounalaska  was  anythiufj  taken  olf  the  "Carolena" 
and  put  ashore?  A. — Yes.  sir.  the  seal  skins  were  taken 
oflf  and  two  boxes  of  bread.  I  believe. 

ii. — Was  that  some  of  the  ]iilot  bread?  A. — Yes,  sir.  two 
boxes  of  pilot  bread;  I  seen  some  jjuns  pased  out. 

ii. — Do  you  n'membei-  Lieut.  Cant  well?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

ii. —  Did  you  see  him  take  an  invenFory  of  the  runninff  p^ar 
and  ri}j!jrln<r  and  jirovisions  of  the  "Carttleua?"  A. — Yes,  sir, 
I  did. 

ii. — Did  you  stand  ritfiit  there  while  he  did  it?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

ii. — I  will  show  you  that  inventory,  which  is  an  exhibit 
in  this  case. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  do  not  know  that  he  was  shown  that  in- 
ventory on  his  direct  examination.  I  do  not  know  that  my 
learned  friend  could  show  him  an  inventory  made  by  another 


495 


iC.  K.  Hiiviior — IHrcct.) 

|M-i'S(»ii  for  tlif  |iiir|MtH('  of  r«'frt'Hliin)j[    IiIm    ni«'iitory;    at    till 
cvftitH,  not  at  tliiH  stap;**  of  tlit>  caHf. 

Mr.  WaiT«'ii: — I  Hiibinit  that  we  have  a  rifjlit  to  nhow  a  jmt- 
Mon  an  invcntorv  wliirh  lu>  Htomi  by  an<l  watched  hein^  taken 
down.  I  Hiihniit  tliat  I  have  a  ri^ht  to  ank  hiui  if  that  in  a 
cornM't  inventory  of  the  ai'tit-leo  lie  saw   tliere. 

10       Mr.  IHekinson: — And  tlie  inventory  Ih  alivady  in  evidence. 

Mr.  WiUi-en: — ThoHe  inventorieH  are  marked  "KxliibitM  l- 
nnd  13." 

The  t^oiiiniiMioncf  on  tlie  |»ai't  of  Her  Majesty: — It  Ih  in  evi- 
denct".  l)ut  do  you  week  to  i*efi*e»!i  tlie  refoliection  of  the  wit- 
iieHS  by  it. 

Mr.  Warren: — I  propoHe  to  ask  liini  if  that  i»  a  correct 
invent«)ry  of  tlie  ai'tielen  he  saw  (-oininf;  off  the  "Carolena." 

-0       'p|„.  ('oinniiHKioner  on  tlie  jiart  (tf  Her  Majesty: — PerhupH 
the  witiieHH  would  be  able  to  say  without  looking  at  that. 

Mr.  Warren: — My  only  object  in  Hhowin);  it  to  hiui  wuh  to 
sliorten  the  matter. 

The  4'oniniiHHi<mer  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  StateH: — Of 
(•oiir«e  it  would  be  sliorter  to  have  it  that  way.  but  if  the  ob- 
jection Ih  insisted  upon  I  do  not  see  h«)w  you  can  show  it  to 
liiin. 

30       Mr.  I'eters: — For  my  part  I  do  not  insist  ujmn  the  suggeB- 
tion. 

Mr.  Warren: — Hefore  I  show  him  the  inventory,  1  will  aak 
him  what  came  oft"  the  "Carolena." 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — If  he  is 
to  see  it  at  all,  it  is  lietter  to  sliow  him  the  inventory  now. 

Mr.  Peters: — In  order  to  save  time   I   will  waive  the  ob- 

40  jection. 

Hy  Mr.  Warren: — .Just  state  the  provisions  that  you  kiw 
loiiiing  oft  the  "Carolena?"  A. — What  provisicms  I  seen 
(•(tming  oH'  the  "Carolena,"  to  my  recollecticm,  were  two  box- 
es of  hard  bread. 

Q. — Pilot  bread?  A. — Yes,  we  called  it  sometimes  pilot 
liread,  and  sometimes  we  call  it  "Liverpool  pan  tile,"  and 
about  112  or  14  sacks  of  tlour. 

Q. — Now.  I  show  you  exhibits  V2  and  l.H  and  I  ask  you  if 

-Q  you  will  state  that  that  is  a  correct  inventory  as  to  the  nuni- 

'     iter  of  articles  that  came  oft'  the  "Carolena"  at  that  time.      I 

will  limit  that  question  tlrst  to  make  it  apply  to  provisions 

only?       A. — Yes,  sir.  1   l)elieve  that  is  a  correct  list  to  the 

best  of  my  memory  now. 

Q. — Were  you  actually  present  when  Lieutenant  Cantwell 
liad  those  things  taken  oft"  the  "Carolena"  and  put  «mto  the 
lifllite!"       A. — T  was.  yes,  sir. 

(i. — .\iid  you  saw  these     provisiiuis  taken  off  the  "(.'aro 
Iciia"  and  put  onto  the  ligliter,  did  vou?      A. — Yes.  sir. 
60       ^i- — '*'*!  .^'*'"   **♦*«'  Lieut,   ('antwell    make    a    memorandum 
for  the  inventory?       A. — Yes,  1  saw  him  when  he  marked 
them  down  in  a  little  book  he  had. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — I  do 
not  quite  understand.  You  ask  him  with  reference  to  the 
inovisions  and  he  says  that  is  a  correct  list.  To  the  wit 
iicss.)  l>o  vou  mean  to  limit  vour  answer  to  the  provisions, 
Captain? 


'■■  4 


i 


m 


\. 


im 


1 

;   1 

f 
(  f 

11  i! 

i- 

M 

m 

496 


'iJVIioi 


20 


S'^ 


(«'.  K.  Kii.viior— IHifft.^ 

WUiii'hh: — Vi"H,  to  tin-  pruviHiouH. 

The  ('oiiiiiiIkhIoiu'I'  on  tlii'  jmrt  of  the  I'liltt-d  Stiit<'w: — You 
are  not  fl|H'akiiiK  of  the  otiier  urtich'H  on  the  liut'' 
WitueHH: — No,  Hir,  I  cannot  tell  all. 

The  CominiHHhiner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  StateH:--! 
UHked  that  question  merely  to  have  the  record  right. 

10        Direct  examination  bv  .Mr.  Warren  continued: 

(j. — How  louK  were  you  in  OunahiHka?  A. — I  cannot  tell 
the  length  of  time  I  waH  tliere,  but  1  think  it  wuh  Honiewhen' 
about  five  weekM. 

y. — How  long  waH  the  "Carolena"  there?  A.— The  "Car 
olena,"  before  tlie  crew  went  down,  I  think,  waH  al»oui  Hve  or 
Hix  days;  that  Ih,  her  crew,  with  the  exception  of  Captain 
O^ilvie  and  the  mate. 

Q. — How  did  Captain  Dgilvie  and  the  nmte  go  down  to 
Sitka?      A. — On  tlie  revenue  cutter  "Corwin." 

Q. — Y<»u  say  they  were  not  confined  in  OunahiHka?  A  — 
No,  8ir;  not  that  I  heard  of. 

Q. — Did  you  sec  them  ashore?  A. — Yes,  sir,  I  saw  tluin 
ashore,  and  was  ashore  with  Captain  O^^ilvie. 

Q. — Did  yon  see  the  mate,  Blake,  ashore?      A. — 1  did. 
ti. — Were  they  allowed  to  sleep  on  board  their  boats,  ho 
far  as  you  know?      A. — Yes,  sir,  so  far  as  I  know. 
Q. — Did  you  sleep  on  board  your  own  boat?      A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q. — Were  any  orders  enforced  that  you  should  not  Iea\c 
the  vessel?      A. — No,  sir,  1  never  heard  of  any. 
Q. — Well,  they  were  not  enforced?      A. — No,  sir. 
Q. — Did  the  crew  of  the  "Carolena"  go  down  wilii  you  on 
the  "San  Diego"  to  Sitka?      A.— No,  sir. 

(i. — How  were  they  taken  down?  A. — Tlu'y  went  to  San 
Francisco  on  the  steamer  "St.  Paul." 
Q. — The  crew  never  were  taken  to  Sitka?  A. — No,  sir. 
Q. — After  you  got  to  Sitka,  Captain  Kaynor,  what  Htejis 
were  taken  by  the  oflicers  in  regard  to  your  ar-est  and  de- 
tention? A. — AVell,  they  told  us  that  we  could  consider  our 
selves  imder  arrest. 

Q.— When  you  say  that  you  include  Captain  t)!;llvie  an<l 
the  mate,  Blake?  A. — Yes,  sir,  I  would  include  the  whole 
of  us — the  captains  and  the  mates  of  the  four  vessels. 

Q._Were  you  bound  over  to  appear?  A.— We  were  bound 
over  on  our  owu  recognizance. 

Q.— And  were  you  given  your  liberty  during  (he  interval? 

\_ Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Did  you  take  advantage  of  that  liberty?  A.— We  did. 
At  east  for  a  few  days  everybody  went  aroun.i.  \NV  were 
on  our  own  recognizance,  and  they  went  for  four  or  liv"  days 
ijad  then  stirrendered  it,  and  then  they  let  us  go  around  just 
the  same  anyway. 

Q_.What  was  the  object  of  their  surn-nderiiii,'  their  recog 
nizance?  A.— Well,  because  we  thought  it  w.i»«  easie;-  to  go 
and  ••at  and  sleep  in  the  jury  room  tlian  it  was  to  g)  on 
board  the  vessels. 

Q.--And  before  they  surrendered  their  bail  they  had  lived 
on  board  their  vessels,  hud  they?       A. — Y'es,  sir. 

Q.— That  indndes  Cai>tain  Ogilvie  and  Mate  Blake?      A.— 

Yes.  sir.  .    .         ,         1  ■ 

Q.— And  so  far  as  y«)u  know  the  ofWcers  of  the  other  ships 
that  were  ther?       A.— Yes.  sir. 

Q._These  ships  were  the  "Thornton"  and  the  "OnwarU. 

A Yfff   sir. 

"  Q._And  liow  big  was  this  jury  r<K>m  and  in  what  building 
was  if?  A.— It  was  in  tiie  court  house.  The  roun.,  I  sliou.d 
think,  was  about  30  feet  long  by  about  l")  broal. 


40 


50 


60 


497 


10 


20 


O.  K.  Kiiyiioi— DiiiMt.) 

Q. — Wurt'  thfy  c«iiii|H'lli'd  to  hKh'p  in  that  ruo'u  or  to  rt> 
main  tlwre — th'it  iM,  iM'fori'  llio  trial  wo  aiv  talking  «>f  now? 
A. — No,  Hir,  tlii'y  ronid  Iuivl'  gone  «)n  huanl  tlio  vohhcI  and 
Hlt'pt  on  board  lit-r,  or  wliatt'vi-r  tin'.v  iilti'd. 

(j.— Tlie  fact  Im  tliat  tlit*^-  actually  Hcli-cti-d  this  |,:.m  ■  to 
Mh'cp  iu  iir»'f«'r»'nc«'  to  the  vchhcI?      A. — Ych.  sir. 

(2. — iMiriuK  the  day  they  wtMv  confined  witliin  the  liniitn 
of  the  court  houMc?      A. — Not  at  all. 

(j. — Did  yuu  h«>i>  Captain  Ogilvii*  and  the  mate  iu  tin- 
streets  at  Hitka?      A — Ych,  sir. 

Q. — And  no  ^uard  was  placed  over  them?  A. — No,  Hir, 
(liere  was  n«'ver  any  j^uard  place»1  over  uh  until  after  the 
(rial. 

Q. — I  am  talkiup;  of  the  time  hefi..e  the  trial.  Did  you 
Hi'v  the  ca)>tainH  and  the  mateM  of  the  other  vchhcIh  ^:oin); 
jihout?      A. — Yen,  sir. 

(i.— >Vhere  did  they  board?  .\.-They  ate  up  in  the  jury 
room. 

Q. — Who  provided  their  board?       A. — Tlie  nmrshal. 

Q. — TTow  long  a  time  elapsed  between  the  time  you  were 
notified  you  would  have  to  a])]M>ar  for  trial  at  a  later  day  and 
llie  day  that  you  a<'tually  did  appear  for  trial?  A. — I  cannot 
just  tell,  but  I  think  It  was  about  two  weeks.        • 

The  Commissioners  then  rose. 


30 


'    'iV.^r 


^C 


Oommiasionen  under  the  OoiiTeiition  of  February  8,  1896,  between 
Ore»t  Britftia  and  the  United  States  of  ilmerica 

Chambers  of  the  Legislative  i^ssembly, 

At  Victoria,  December  15, 1896. 

At  10.30  a.m.  the  Commissioners  took  tlieir  stmts. 

40      Direct  examination  of  Captain  Raynor  resumed  by    Mr. 
Warren. 

il. — I  believe  we  are  examining  you  as  to  what  occurred  at 
Sitka  before  the  trial  of  tlie  captains  and  nuites  of  the  tliree 
or  four  vessels  that  were  tliere.  How  lonu;  a  time  elapsed 
between  the  time  tluit  you  considered  yourself  tinder  arrest 
and  the  time  of  the  trial?  A. — \Vell,  I  couldn't  say  jiosi- 
tlvely  as  to  tha^.  I  think  somewliere  about  three  weeks.  I 
couldn't  say  positively. 

(■i. — The  mate,  Marlceti<*li,  went  down  on  your  boat  to  Sit- 
l<!i?      A. — Y'es,  sir. 

Q. — When  yon  got  tliere.  was  tliere  any  witness  to  nmke 
cmiiplaint  against  you?      A. — No,  sir,  none. 

Q. — Tlie  marshal  merely  told  you  that  you  would  consider 
your8«'lf  under  arrest?      A. — Y'es. 

Q. — Wlien  did  the  captains  and  mates  of  the  other  boats 
iirrivc?  A. — They  arrived  on  the  -'Corwin,"  I  think,  three 
or  four  days  afterwards. 

Q. — After  the  "San  Diego"  arrived?      A. — Yes,  sii. 

(i. — In  speaking  of  the  jiassage  from  Ounalasiia  to  Sitka 
•  111  tlie  "San  Diego,"  the  mate,  Marketich,  said  tiiat  the  boat 
was  lialf  full  of  water.  Is  tliat  true?  A. — No,  t-ir;  it 
wasn't. 

Q. — Was  there  any  unusual  amount  of  water  in  the  "San 
I>iego?"  A.— No,  sir! 

Q. — Was  there  any  comfortable  place  for  him  to  sleep 
iit'oard  the  boat?      A. — There  was. 

••52 


60 


'■'' 


iiii* 


iMl 


',:* 


Trarr 


i|»Mm>> 


10 


49S 
(('.  \].  Hii.Mior — Dirccl.i 

Q. — Where  did  he  sleep?      A. — He  slept  in  llie  forecastU'. 
(i. — As  jn<:il  ii  bed  as  he  hnd  in  the  "On ward?"      A. — Yen. 
sir. 

Q. — In  the  quarters  pi'dvided  for  tiie  mate?  A.-  A'es,  sir; 
the  same  quarters. 

Q. — Your  mate,  I  believe,  went  down  on  the  "Porwin?"  A. 
— Yes.  sir. 

Q. — And  Marketieh  lived  in  the  foreeastle  of  yitiir  bout 
on  the  trip?       .V. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — After  th<'  arrival  of  the  eaptains  and  males  of  tlic 
•'Thornton"  ani  "Onward."  were  thev  complained  aftaiast 
formally?       A. — Yes,  sir;  tle'.v  were. 

Q. — Were  tlie.v  arrested  in  the  same  manner  that  yon  were? 
.\. — Yes,  sir,  the  same. 

Q. — Were  thev  restrained  of  their  liberty  in  any  way  up  to 
the  time  of  the  trial?       A. — No,  sii'. 

Q — Xow  just  tell  the  Commissioner."*     aboni      where     th'- 
20   mates  and  captains  slejjt  at  Sitka  before  they  went   to  the 
jnry  room.       I   believe  the  "Candena."   the   "Onward"  and 
"Thornton"  wn-re  left  sit  Onnalaska.  so  prior  to  the  time  they 
went   to   the  jniy   room    where  did   these   men   sleep?     .\. — 
They  slept  aboard  the  "San  Diepo." 
Q. — That  is  your  boat?      A. — Yes.  sir. 
{}. — Did  they  have  their  own  beddinji?       A. — Yes,  sir. 
(2. — Had  they   take>i   it  olf  their  respe<tive  boats?       A. — 
Yes.  sir,  they  had. 
Q — .\nd  carried  it  to  the  "San  Diefjo?"       A. — Yes,  sir. 
30       '^l. — Did   they   have  their  own   beddinj?,   their  mattresses? 
\.--^'eH.  sir. 

Q. — And  about  how  lt>nn  did  they  stay  on  the  "San  Diejfo" 
befitre  they  decided  to  j;o  into  the  jury  room  and  sleep?  A. 
— I  think  it  was  three  days. 

Q. — When  they  surrendered  their  personal  bail  and  asivcd 
tr»  be  allowed  to  sh'eji  at  the  jail,  did  they?     A. — Yes,  sii'. 

Q. — Now  is  that  Jusi   the  wa^   the  tiling  occurred,  or    were 

I  hey  compelled  to  fjo  to  the  jury  room  and  sleep?     A. — \o, 

sir,  that   is  just  (he  way  the  thin<i  occurred;  they  done  it  of 

'^'^    their  own  self;  asked  the  marshal  to  let  them  sleej)  llu'reand 

also  cat  there. 

(i. — .\nd  he  complied  witii  their  retpicst?       .V. — Yes.  sir. 
Q. — It  was  a  step  (akcn  for  their  p(  rsonal  comfort,  was  it? 
A. — \  <'S,   sir.         riiey    done    it     because    they    didn't    like — of 
course  the  "San   Dicjici"  was  anchoi'cd  some  ways  ofl'  shoi'c. 
and  they  didn't  like  to  pull  back  and  for'h  aboard  of  her  lo 
•;et  their  meals  and  slt(]i.       I  also  done  it  myself  on  the  same 
account. 
.^        (2. — When  they  went  into  the  jury  room  did  they  take  tiic 
'      same  beddinj;  that  Ihcy  brouf-ht  olT  their  res|»eclive  boats  otV 
the  "San  Dieffo?"       .\.— Thev  <lid;  yes,  sir. 

Q._.pi„i„  tiu'  "San   Dit'tjo"  to  the  jury  room?       .V.— Yes. 

sir. 

(i.— .Vnd  duiinfr  the  time  that  ihey  slei)t  in  the  jury  rem 
did  they  make  use  of  Ibis  beddin^'?  A.— Yes,  sir;  all  the  lime. 

Q. —  ' 'is  there  any  abuse  on  the  part  of  any  federal  olVi 
cial  there?      .\.— I  never  sei-n  any  nor  I'ver  heard  tell  o'  ■  .  v. 

(.y — Did  you  ever  liear  any  ((Unjilaints  on  the  part   ,  '     .iv 
60   one?       .\. — I  did  not. 

(^.—What  fare  was  provided  by  the  marshal  for  you  men? 
A.— Well,  we  had  flush  meal,  bi-ef,  and  fresh  tish.  i»olatoes 
and  lu-ead,  and  so  on 

II— \  don't  care  for  the  details  of  it.  Was  it  jjood  or  bad? 
.\. — Yes.  sir;  it  was  in»»\. 

(2. — As  ^'ood  as  these  men  hati  aboard  their  ships?  .\.— 
Yes.  sir,  1  slii>uhl  say  as  >;ood  as  I  ever  had  aboard  of  a  ship. 

C^.— You  had  no  c(Miii»lainl  to  nniki"?      .\.— T  did  not, 


499 


10 


A. — Y«'S.  sir. 
(.^iiptaiii  IIooiKT  you 
not  Ciiptain  IIooimt, 


(('.  K.  Kaynor — Diiirt.) 

Q.— Did  jou  liear  the  others  comphun  of  their  food;  any 
scarcity?      A, — No,  sir,  not  at  all. 

Q. — Had  all  yoii  wanted  to  eat?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Were  Captain  ORilvie  and  Mr.  Blake  there?  A.— 
They  were. 

Q. — At  the  same  table  and  had  tiie  same  fare  as  yon  had? 
A. — They  were;  yes,  sir. 

Q. — Was  the  table  in  tlie  jury  room,  or  did  yon  eat  some- 
where else  in  tlie  building?  A. — Tliere  was  a  table  in  the 
jury  room. 

Q.— Brought  in  at  meal  time?  A.— It  stayed  there  all  the 
time,  sir. 

Q. — There  was  room  in  this  i)lace.  then,  for  a  table  to 
stand  in  addition  to  the  r«»om  for  the  nu-n  to  sleep?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — How  many  meals  a  day  did  you  have  there?    A. — I  ate 
three  meals. 
20       Q. — Now,  comint;  to  the  trial.       Were  you  there  at  the 
same  time  that  all  the  rest  were  there?      A. — Same  day;  I 
was  there  the  same  day,  yes.  sir.  but  after  the  other  trials. 

Q. — I  believe  that  yon  waived  a  jury?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Because  one  was  not  to  be  had  short  of  .Tunean?  A. 
— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Tlu'  othei's  were  tried  by  jury? 

Q. — .Vnd    for   the  accommodation   of 
waived  a  trial  by  j\ny?      A. — Yes,  sir; 
,Q   but  ('aptain  Abby. 

Q. — Captain  Abby  was  of  the  "<\)rwin"  that  year?  .\. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Before  tlie  day  of  the  trial  Captain  Onilvie  had  dis 
appeared,  I  believe?      A. — Yi's,  sir. 

Q. — He  never  was  tried?      .V. — No.  sir. 

Q. — So  that  he  never  was  detiiiiicd  or  imprisoned?  A. — 
Xo,  sir,  he  was  not. 

<i- — What  do  you  know  about  the  illness  and  disappear 
ance  of  Captain  Ofjilvie?  .lust  tell  the  Commissioners  from 
tile  time  of  the  arrival  at  Ounalaska  until  he  liually  disap 
)>eared  at  Sitka?  .\.— \\  <  11.  in  Ounalaska  when  I  went 
aboard  the  "Carolena,"  that  was  probably  four  or  six  hours 
after  her  arrival  there,  T  couldn't  say  just  exactly  what  time 
it  was.  1  fouiul  Caj>tain  (»}iilvie  in  his  berth  sick,  and  he  told 
me  that  he  had  been  sutl'eriiiji  from  svi>hilis  and  had  been 
takin.<;  potash  for  it.  an<l  that  he  had  |)ains  and  aches  all 
tliro.iph  him — throufrh  his  Itones  and  everything.  .\fter 
wa'ds  I  heard  the  surgeon  of  the  "Corwin"  say  that  the  jiot 
as'a  had  gone  to  his  brains. 

Q.— Without  detailing  what  vou  heard  ui>  there.  Captain, 
just  tell  what  occurred  and  what  you  saw.  Was  he  treated 
bv  the  surgeon  or  physician  of  the  "Corwin?"      .\. — Tie  was. 

(J. — .\nd  was  he,  so  far  as  you  observed,  properly  taken 
care  of?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — AYas  he  taken  by  the  surg(>on  of  th(>  "Corwin"  to  Sit- 
ka?     A. — Yes,  sir,  he  was. 

Q. — .\nd  they  gave  him  some  extra   attention,  did  they? 

"^o   .\.— Yes,  sir.       When  he  arrived  at  Sitka  he  seenu'd  to  be 

Iiretly  well.       He  was  around  with  us  all  the  tinu',  aiul  1 

never  heard  liim  make  any  complaint  of  anything.      One  day 

lie  was  missing. 

Q.— Just  comjilete  the  story  about  it.  What  Itecame  of 
liini?  A. — Well,  he  was  missing,  and  I  couldn't  tell  exactly 
how  loag  aftei'wards,  it  was  a  mouth  or  six  we<'ks,  anyway. 
Wi  found  him  out  back  of  the  Indian  village  with  his  throat 
riK. 


I  ■: 


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mm- 


WW 


;oo 


'tii«1i»i 


10 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


C.  E.  Hayuor— Diit'ct.) 

Q. — And  wiiB  (here  au.v  i-vidt'nce  about  liiiu  to  indicate  as 
to  whether  he  had  roniniUted  suicide?  A. — He  had  a  razor 
gniHped  in  his  right  hand. 

Q. — Did  .vou  actually  see  this  with  your  own  eyes?  A. — 
Yes,  sir.  I  did. 

Q. — I  believe  you  stayed  in  Sitka  longor  than  any  of  the 
«)thers  that  were  detained  there?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  that  after  Marlvetich  and  the  others.  I  1m*  captain 
of  the  "Thornton."  the  ca|>tain  of  the  "Onward."  and  their 
respective  mates  had  left  Sitka  y(»u  still  remained?  Then  it 
was  that  Captain  Opilvie's  body  was  found?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Why  was  it  tliat  you  stayed  longer  than  any  of  the 
other  captains  in  Sitka?  A. — Well,  I  had  a  longer  sen- 
tence. 

Q. — To  shorten  it.  I  believe  you  were  sentenced  to  a  tenn 
of  imprisonment  without  any  fine?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — And  the  others  to  a  shorter  term  with  a  fine?  A. — 
Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Were  you  present  at  the  trial  of  the  mate,  Blake,  for 
instance?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Tell  the  Commissioners  what  took  place  there,  just  in 
in  a  short  way?      A. — Well,  I  don't  know-- 

Mr.  Bodwell: — I  suppose  you  are  no'  li.in^,  *  >  prove  the 
record  of  the  conviction,  Mr.  Warren? 

Mr.  Warren: — I  am  trying  to  contrn.:.  ;  tm  .  i.ite,  Marke- 
tich  when  he  sjiid  the  judge  called  ianu    'roDlxM-s." 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I  hited  States: — Ask 
the  question  directly. 

Question  withdrawn. 

By  Mr.  Warren: 

Q. — W«M'e  there  any  insults  heajM'd  up«m  Blake  at  his 
trial  so  far  as  you  observed?      A. — T  never  heard  of  any. 

Q. — IMd  the  judge  taunt  or  accuse  these  men  as  being  com- 
mon criminals?      \. — No.  sir,  he  did  not. 

Q. — Were  you  jiresent  at  the  trial  of  the  mate.  Marke- 
tich?      \. — Yes.  sir.  I  was. 

Q. — Did  any  such  proceedings  occur  there?       \. — No.  sir. 

Q. — .\ny  such  remarks  made?      .V. — Xo.  sir. 

Q. — Were  tliei'e  any  comitlaints  made  by  any  of  the  ni!n''s» 
or  ca|»tain8  as  ti>  (he  maniu'r  in  which  (iiey  were  IcmIi'I 
(here?       .\. — Xo,  sir. 

Q. — Or  the  words  (ha(  were  used  in  reference  to  *'.<'in.'' 
A. — Xo.  sir.  I  never  heard  of  (hem. 

Q. — Did  you  hear  the  word  "robbers"  used  in  the  (ii,>";i<' 
of  (he  cour(?       .\. — I  did  no(.  no  such  word. 

Q. — For  how  long  af(er  the  (rial  were  the  mates  nn(i  ciij, 
tains  confined?      A. — About  15  days. 

(J. — Tell  (he  court  when'  they  were  confined  during  that 
(ime?      A. — Well,  (hey  were  in  the  jury  room. 

Q. — The  same  room  as  before?  A. — The  same  room  as  be- 
fore. The  room  was  about  .10  to  .I.T  feet  long  by  about  !•"> 
feet  wide. 

Q.— What  liberty  did  (hey  have?  A.— Well,  (hey  could 
go  all  over  (li"  lop  of  (he  cour(  house,  in  the  c<»ur*  rooii.  anil 
all  around  out  around  the  iwrch,  down  in  (he  y;  .  iu  fiic(. 
anywheres  over  Si(ka,  by  going  and  asking  jterin  ;•  <>  ■  of  (he 
miirshal. 

Q. — Did  you  ever  see  any  of  (liese  men  ou(side  ..1  :  i'  jiii,' 
room,  or  away  from  (he  immediate  vicini(y  of  (he  co\iir(  house 
during  (iiis  (ime  of  ;iflneme'»f  ;if(er  (Imt  (lrK(  sen(ence? 
A. —  Yes.  sir. 

Q.— Where  did  yt  ;l  s;i'  (heia''  A.— Well.  1  have  seen 
(hem  on(  in  (he  s('i'i'(  arouiu/  .•]!'.  a  and  in  different  stores: 
I  couldnM  give  tin   ,  anie  '.»f  die  stores,  who  kept  (hem. 


20 


30 


;oi 

C.  E.  Ua^iud— IMrott.) 

Q. — Did  you  yoursi'lf  p)  out  diHiif;  tliiit  tiuu"?  A. — I  did, 
yes. 

Q. — W«'re  any  of  you  loclvt'd  in  oi-  guiird<>d  durin)<;  tliat 
time?  A. — Well,  there  wa8  none  of  us  locked  in  at  all;  they 
had  a  man  up  there  for  a  f«'w  davH  who  was  supposed  to  be 
a  guard,  but  he  never  stopped  us  from  going  anywheres  that 
we  wanted  to. 

Q. — After  the  15  days  had  flapsed  which  you  speak  of  as 

'^  being  the  time  you  believed  the  other  mates  and  captains 

served,  tell  us  what  occurred,  how  they  were  i"«'leased?  A. — 

Well,  the  marshal  released  them  and  they  went  right  away 

on  the  steamer  to  \'ictoria. 

(J. — Were  they  released  in  ttrdei-  to  take  a  boat  to  \'ic- 
toria,  did  it  not  leave  the  next  day?  A. — Yes.  sir.  They 
were  ivleased  at  the  time  the  steamer  was  there,  so  they 
could  take  the  boat  and  not  be  detained  in  Sitka  any  longer 
than  possible. 

Q. — After  the  sentence  of  the  court  was  there  any  differ- 
ence in  the  tivatment  of  the  men.  both  as  to  the  fare  that 
they  were  given  and  as  to  the  place  where  they  were  allowed 
to  sleep,  and  as  to  the  bedding  thev  had?  A. — No.  sir.  none 
at  all. 

Q. — The  same  as  they  had  before  the  sentence  of  the 
court?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

il. — You  remained  in  Sitka  how  many  days  after  the  others 
had  gone,  that  is.  contineU?      A. — Conrtned  15  da  vs. 

Q.— And  then  you  left  Sitka?  A-— I  hft  Sitka  about  20 
days  after  they  did. 

Q. — It  was  during  this  15  or  20  days  that  the  body  of  f/aj)- 
lain  Ogilvie  was  found,  was  it?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — f'oming  back  to  Ounalaska  and  the  "Carolena"'  speci- 
fically. You  say  you  were  aboard  the  "Carolena"  about 7our 
or  six  hours  after  she  arrived  in  Ounalaska.  Did  you.  at 
that  time,  see  the  guns  of  the  "f'arolena"  at  Ounalaska?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Will  you  tell  the  Commissioners  how  you  know  they 
were  the  guns  of  the  "Carolena,"  how  you  weiv  able  to  se]*- 
arate  them  from  the  guns  of  other  vessels  to  distinguish 
I  hem?  A. — The  guns  were  all  packed,  that  is.  they  w»'re 
all  marked  with  a  piece  of  canvass  and  the  name  of  the  ves- 
Kcl  that  they  belonged  to  wrote  on  them. 

Q. — How  many  shot  guns  did  the  "Carolena"  have?  A. — 
She  had  four  shot  guns. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  the  names  of  any  of  the  hunters? 
\. — No,  sir.  I  couldn't  say  that  I  do. 

Q. — Do  you  not  remember  the  name  of  one  hunter?       Do 
you  remember  the  hunter  Shields,  or  did  you  not  know  him 
^"  ill  that  time?    A. — I  was  not  ac()ua)nt(Hl  with  Shields  at  that 
lime. 

(). — What  can  you  say  in  regard  to  whether  or  not  you 
knew  (»f  your  own  knowledge  tliat  everything  was  taken  off 
llie  "Carolena"  when  this  inventory  I  showed  you  yesterday 
(Kxhibits  12  and  18)  was  taken?  A.— Well.  I  was  in  the 
"♦"arolena,"  I  was  aboard  the  "Cirolena"  and  I  looked  down 
I  lie  hold  at  that  time  and  1  didn't  see  anything  else  left 
tliere;  I  didn't  go  down  to  examine  it. 

Q. — Were  you  in  a  position  where  you  could  see  d«iwn  into 
llie  hold  of  the  "Carolena*?"  A. — Yes.  sir.  I  was  standing 
•III  her  deck  alongside  of  the  hatch. 

(i. — When  the  captain  was  taking  this  inventory?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Now,  he  took  an  inventory  of  the  stock  of  the  "San 
Diego."  I  believe?  A.— Yes.  sir.  he  did. 
Q. — Was  it  correct?      A. — It  was  correct,  yen. 


40 


r,o 


iiiiil 

'III 


l»^ 


lC!mpq]^|1W 


III  I 


i^ii 


lO 


;02 

((,'.  E.  Kii.yiHti'— Dirt'ot.) 

Q. — I)i<l  yon  soo  tlic  tanocs  of  tho  '•'Ciirolpna?"  A. — I  did, 
yt's,  sir. 

(.i. — W'jis  ilicrc  imvlliiii)^  cxtraordinarv  about  lliosc  can- 
oes? A. — The  only  tiling  tliat  I  rcinarktd  about  the  canocH 
ditVci'cnt  from  any  otlior  canoes  they  had  some  ribs  in  them, 
tliat  is  tile  only  thin};  I  see  on  the  canoes. 

<i. — Tliey  were  the  rc};nlar  canoes  in  use  at  that  time  by 
the  Indians,  were  they,  with  that  excejition?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — l>o  you  icmember  whether  or  not  the  ''('andena"  had 
a  yawl  boat  at  that  time?  A. — To  the  best  of  my  memory, 
she  had  a   boat. 

Q. — When  do  you  think  you  saw  the  yawl  of  the  'Tiw'o- 
lena?"      A. — There  at  Ounalaska. 

Q. — At  the  time  the  inventory  was  being  made?  A. — Yes, 
aboard  of  the  vessel  when  I  went  aboard  of  her,  I  beli«'ve. 

Q. — t)n  the  shore  or  attached  to  the  boat?       A. — It  was 
aboard  of  the  vessel  when  I  w<'nt  aboard  of  her,  I  believe. 
20       Q- — Then  you  are  (pilte  positive  they  had  a  yawl  at  that 
time?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You   had  no    infonnation    wliere    it    came    from,    of 
eoni-se. 
A. — No,  sir,  I  did  not. 

Q. — Since  that  time,  have  you  seen  the  "Carolena,"  cap- 
tain?     A. — No,  sir,  I  have  not  seen  her  since  that  time. 

Q. — Wore  you  not  in  Ounalaska  in  1887?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Were  you  taken  to  Hitka  in  1887?      A. — I  was;  yes, 
sir. 
30       Q- — The  last  you  saw  of  the  "Carolena,  she  was  anchored 
in  the  harbor  at  Ounalaska?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — In  the  stream?  A. — In  the  stream — yes,  sir.  In  the 
bay. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  the  size  of  the  "Carolena"  approxi- 
mately? A. — I  should  say  the  "( ■aroleua"  was  somewhere  be- 
tween 25  and  80  tons. 

Q. — I  believe  you  have  outfitted  vessels  for  sealing  at  Se 
attle?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  at  San  Francisco?      A. — Yes,  sir. 
40       Q. — You  have  made  out  your  orders  for  supplies,  and  have 
O.  K'd  the  bills  before  they  were  paid?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  know  the  values,  cost  of  an  outfit?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q. — For  a  white  crew?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  yo\i  ever  use  Indians?      A. — I  did  not;  no,  sir. 

Q. — \\'hat  is  your  idea  of  the  cost  of  the  maintenance  of 
a  white  crew  per  month,  consisting  of  eleven  men?  A. — Well, 
the  cost  would  be  about  between  ^S  and  flO. 

Q. — Are    you    speakint;    from  actual  experience,  or  from 
50   what  you  figure  it  otit  to  be  now?      A. — I  am  siMJiking  from 
actual  experien<'e. 

Q. — Tliat  is  the  way  in  which  you  used  to  estimate  the  cost 
of  your  voyage?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — That  would  be  so  much  per  month  per  man?  A. — 
Yes.  sir. 

Q.— When  you  sav  from  ^8  to  ifflO,  what  do  von  mean? 
A.— 18  to  fin  per  month. 

Q. — For  what?       A. — For  one  man. 

Q— That  is  the  Seattle  and  San  Francisco  price?      A.— 
'^   Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You   have  never  outtitled   in   Victoria?       .\. — No,  sir. 

Q- — You  have  been  in  the  port  of  Victoria?  A. — Yes. 
sir 

Q.— Afnny  times.  T  supiioso.  aboard  a  vess<>l?  A. — Well, 
I  believe  1  liave  been  in  Victoria  aboard  a  vessel  altogether 
Iliree  linu'S. 

Q— You  have  been  in  the  harbor  of  Victoria  aboard  sail- 
ing vessels?      A.— Three  times. 


503 

(('.  K.  Kiiviioi— Dimt.) 

{.I. — ^  (Ml  liavc  liccii  in  lliis  hiirboi-,  iiiid  upon  a  s<'alin<j  ves- 
sel, ofti'iR-r  tliau  that,  have  .vou  not?      A. — Vt*s.  sir. 

Q. — And  ^vou  are  well  ai(|uaint«'d  with  the  sealing;  biisinesH 
out  of  N'iotoria — were  you  in  those  days?  A. — Well,  I  con- 
sidered myself  so. 

y. — I  believe  the  San  Diego  came  in  here  in  1><S(J,  before 


10 


4'3 


io   V 


she  went  to  Itehring  Sea,  didn't  she?      A. — >'o.  sir. 

i}. — Were  you  acquainted  with  the  market  value  of  vessels 
of  the  style  of  the  "Caroleua"  at  Seattle  in  l.SS(i  and  IHS7.  and 
at  San  Francisco?      A. — I  think  I  was,  yes,  sir. 

(i. — What  do  you  think  the  "f'arolena"  would  have 
brought  in  188(i  or  1H87  on  the  market,  e(|uip|ted  and  ready 
for  sea?  Excluding,  of  course,  her  sealing  outtlt?  A. — Well, 
I  think  she  would  have  brought  from  |1000  to  #1200. 

Q. — What  would  you  think  she  was  worth  at  that  time? 
A. — Well.  I  should  siiy  that  that  would  be  a  very  fair  valua- 
tion of  her— from  |ilOOO  to  l||H200. 

Q.— Do  you  know  of  any  vessels  of  the  size  of  the  "Caro- 
leua" being  built  in  1885  and  188G  at  San  Francisco?  A. — 
Well,  the  nearest  (me  I  ciin  think  of  is  a  little  schooner 
called  the  "Annie" — she  was  built  in  1885.  1  think. 

ti. — What  was  her  tonnage?      A. — Her  tonnage  was  25. 

(^ — What  did  she  cost?  A. — Well,  the  owner  told  me 
that  he  paid  #1000  for  her. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  the  "Inger?"       A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i. — What  is  her  tonnage?      A. — 25,  1  believe. 

y. — Do  you  know  who  built  her?  A. — Matthew  Turner 
built  her. 

ti. — Do  you 

(i. — Do  yo»i 
member  her. 

(i. — What  was  her  tonnage?      A. — The  wime 

g.— Who  built  her?      A.— Matthew  Turner 

*]. — Ot  what  place?      A. — San  Francisco. 

(i- — Where  is  his  shipyard?  A. — His  shipyard  at  that 
lime  was  up  at  what  we  call  Mission  t'reek. 

(i.— Where  is  it  now?      A. — In  N'euetia. 

(i- — Xear  San  Francisco?       A. — ^es.  sir. 

y.— What  did  the  "Xargai"  cost?      A.— |25(I0. 

^i- — -^11  ready  and  eipiipped  for  sea?       .\. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— In  forming  your  idea  of  the  value  of  the  "Caroleua," 
wli.n  do  you  base  that  value  upim?  A.— 1  base  the  value 
lipoii  (he  prices  of  <tther  vessels  of  the  sauu-  tonnage,  or 
nearly  the  same  tonnage. 

A. —  In  San   Francisco  and    ;wo  or 

including 


know  what  she  cost?      A.— Cost  |i2500. 
remember  the  "Nargai?"       A. — Yes,  sir,  I 


!5  tons. 


re- 


Victoria', 


A. — Kxcludin;; 


knowledge  of  the  nuirket  at 
A. — No,  sir;  I  did  not. 


was  sold; 


(>a 


<i.  -  In   what    ports? 
ilircc  Sound  ports. 

ti- — Kxcluding    or 

ictoriii. 

(i.-  Yim  didn't  have  accuratt 
Vicliivia  during  those  years? 

^i— To  show  an  experience  in  this  regard.  Captain,  did  vou 
inspect  the  ".Ada"  when  she  was  s«»ld  at   I'ort  Townsend  to 
Mr.  Xickerson?       A.— I   inspected   her  before  sh< 
yes.  sir. 

(i.— And  for  Mr.  Xickerson?       A. 

<i.— For  whai    purpose?       .\. — For 

ller. 

<i.— For  the  jinritose  of  informing  Mr. 
sir. 

(i.— As  to  her  value?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Sir  C.  H.  Tupper:— This  is  one  of  the  vessels  in  question. 
i.s  it  not. 

Mr.  Warren:  — I  won't  go  into  lur  value;  I  simply  w'.sli  to 
billow  his  experience. 

To  witness: — Q. — You  superintended  the  construction  of 
'lie  "A Hie  r.  Alger'.'"       A.— Yes,  sir. 


-Yes,  sir. 
the  pur])os< 


of  buying 
Xickerson?     A. — Yes, 


-:i;':.    S(5/ 


||.'; 


liM  i  h   :'  -  -■  ■  .. 


iiHl; 


tli'ii 


'tM'h'ii 


10 


20 


30 


504 

C.  E.  Ka>uor— Diioet.) 

Q— Iii  dotiiil?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

<i— 1»(»  .V<)u  know  what  the  "Lilliu  L"  sold  for  in  Sjin  Fran- 
ciHco?      A.— Wt'll,  I  have  lieaid  tliat  she  sold  for  fl,8()(K 

Q- — What  was  lier  tonnage?      A.— SonietliinR  over  «(>. 

(2.— In  what  vear  was  Hlie  sohl'i  A.— I  believe  it  was  in 
188r»  or  IHHC)— I  eonldn't  just  tell  which. 

Q.— Do  .vou  now  wlio  bought  the  "Lillie  L?"  A.— C  D 
Ladd. 

Q.— The  gun  man?      A.— fes,  sir. 

Q.— Just  off  Market  street?      A.— On  Turner  street. 

Q.— Was  the  "Lillie  L"  a  better  vessel  than  the  "Carole 
na,"  or  as  good?      A.— I  should  say  she  was  a  belter  vessel, 

.\<'S. 

Q.— Besides  being  larger?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q-— When  you  place  a  value  upon  a  vessel  and  speak  of 
lier  as  e«inipp«'<l  ready  for  sea,  does  that  value  include  the 
cost  of  putting  her  in  condition  for  that  particular  voyage? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Exclusive  of  outfitting  her  for  sealing  purposet  )r  fo. 
any  other  particular  purpose?  A.— Yes,  sir;  when  J  speak 
of  the  value  of  a  vessel  1  speak  of  the  equipment  that  any 
mereliant  vessel  would  have. 

Q. — Would  you  say  that  a  bill  for  ship  cliandlery,  the  cost 
of  rei)airing  floors  of  the  cabin,  repairing  cook  stovi's,  or  one 
cook  stove,  tlie  cost  of  m<'nding  sails,  the  cost  of  rope  tlial 
was  actually  used  on  tlie  vessel  bef'  r»  slie  left,  was  a  part  of 
the  sealing  outfll  or  a  part  of  the  shi|>?  A.— I  should  say  it 
was  a  jtart  of  the  sip,  most  decidedly. 

Q. — I  call  your  attintiou  to  Voucher  No.  «,  Exhibit  10,  in 
the  case  of  the  "(.'arolena,"  and  particularly  to  the  second 
ptige  of  tlie  voucher,  and  ask  yon  if  after  reading  that  you  will 
tell  the  Commissioners  whetlier  you  think  the  articles  named 
in  that  bill  were  properly  a  jmrt  of  the  sliip  or  a  part  of  tlie 
sealing  outtit?  A. — (Examining)— Well,  I  don't  see  any- 
thing in  this  bill  that  could  jiossibly  belong  to  a  sealing  out- 
tit. Two  compasses  here  might  belong  to  a  sealing  outfit; 
the  rest  of  it,  I  should  say.  belonged  to  the  vessel. 

Q. — If  the  compasses  were  small  compasses  such  as  were 
used  in  sealing  boats,  thev  would  belong  to  tlie  sealing  out 
fit?    A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — If  large  compasses,  such  as  are  used  aboard  a  vessel, 
they  would  belong  to  the  vessel?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  that  I  suppose  you  cannot  tell?  A. — No,  sir;  tliat 
I  can't  tell. 

Q. — In  making  your  answer,  does  it  make  any  difference 
as  to  whetlier  or  not  these  articles  are  actually  made  use  of 
before  the  vessel  leaves  the  port  or  are  carried  aboard  the 
5°  sliip  as  extra  sujiplies?  And  wliat  would  you  say  as  to 
whether  they  constitute  a  jtart  of  tlie  shij)  «)r  a  part  of  the 
sealing  outfit?  A.— Well,  in  either  case  tliey  wouldn't  con 
stitute  a  part  of  the  sealing  outfit. 

Q— I  show  you  Vor.oher  No.  12,  of  this  Exhiltit  10,  "Caro 
lena."  and  Voucher  So.  11,  Exhibit  10.  first  directing  your  at- 
tention to  No.  10,  and  ask  you  if  that  is  a  i)art  of  the  ship 
or  the  sealing  outfit?  A. — (Examining) — This  last  article  1 
can't  make  out. 

Q.— That  is  19  reef  points?  A.— No,  sir;  that  bill  be 
longs  to  the  ship  altogetlier. 

Q. — Now,  No.  11?      A. — (Examining) — In  this  bill  tliere  is 
10  yards  of  No.  3  cotton  canvas — that  belongs  to  the  ship;  al 
so  6  yards  of  No.  i — that  belongs  to  the  ship;  2  balls  of 
twine — that  wonld  be  long  to  the  ship.      This  rilie,  of  course, 
would  belong  to  the  sealing  outfit,  I  suppos(>. 

Q. — Now.  if  tli.it  diu'k  was  used  on  the  sails,  or  other  re 
pairs  of  the  sails  of  tlie  vessel,  you  mean  that  if  used  for  the 


40 


60 


10 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


505 
C.  E.  Kaviioi— Diieet.) 

Suits  of  thv  sinull  boat,  of  course  it  would  beSoug  to  tlie  seal- 
ing outfit?  A. — Yi'8,  si'-.  Couldn't  use  No.  3  duck  for 
8niall  boat  sails. 

Q. — Then  you  know  it  lielongs  to  tlu>  sliip?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — I  believe  you  saw  the  sails  of  tlu>  "Carolena"  at  Ouna- 
laska?      A.— I  did. 

Q. — What  condition  were  they  in?  A. — Well,  the  sails 
were  patched  a  good  deal. 

Q. — Could  you  tell  whether  or  not  that  boat  had  had  new 
spars  within  the  period  of  a  year  and  a  half  last  past?  A. — 
No,  sir,  I  could  not — that  is  a  very  hard  thing  to  tell 
without  inspec.ting  her  spars  very  closely. 

Q. — A  casual  observer  of  a  spar  cannot  tell  whether  it  is 
new  or  old,  unless  it  is  buckled  or  twisted,  or  very  old?  A. 
— No,  sir. 

Q. — Speaking  generally,  now,  and  without  going  into  de- 
tails any  further  with  these  vouchers,  when  j-ou  place  a 
value  on  a  ship  as  being  ready  to  go  to  sea,  you  include  bills 
of  the  nature  I  have  shown  you,  do  you  not?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — I  believe  you  said  you  knew  al>out  the  tonnage  of  the 
"Carolena,"  that  it  was  somewhere  betveen  25  and  80?  A. 
— Yes,  sir;  between  25  and  'SO  tons. 

Q. — What  would  you  say  as  to  carrying  45  boxes  of  pilot 
bread  for  a  sealing  cruise  of  four  months  or  four  and  a  half 
months,  say  on  the  "Carolena?"  A. — Well,  I  should  say  1 
never  heard  tell  of  it  being  done  with  white  men. 

Q. — Do  you  rt>member  of  seeing  the  boxes  of  pilot  bread 
tliat  actually  came  oflf  the  "Carolena"  at  Ounalaska?  A. — 
Yes,  sir;  I  seen  two  tliere. 

Q. — And  do  you  remember  what  size  they  were — wlujther 
50  or  25  pound  boxes?  A. — I  think  the.y  are  what  we  call 
a  50  pound  box. 

Q. — Would  you  carry  for  eleven  men  on  a  cruise  of  four 
months  or  four  and  a  half  months,  000  pounds  of  ham  and 
680  pounds  of  bacon?      A. — No.  sir;  I  should  not. 

Q. — Do  you  think  that  a  reasonable  amount,  or  unreason- 
iil)Ie?      A. — 1  think  it  a  very  unreasonable  amount. 

il. — Would  you  carry  15  barrels  of  flour,  besides  some  dozen 
or  l.T  siicks?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Is  that  !i  reasonable  or  an  unreasonable  amount  for 
that  number  of  men  and  that  length  of  a  voyage?  A. — I 
think  it  is  unreasonable.  I  don't  see  what  they  could  possi- 
l>)y  do  with  it. 

ti.— What  was  the  tonnage  of  the  "San  Diego?"  A.— 
Tlie  "San  Diego's"  tonnage,  1  believe,  was  3G  tons 

Q. — IIow  many  men  did  you  have  on  board?  A. — 1  had 
1!)  men  all  told. ' 

(i.— White  or  Indians?      A. — White  men. 

Q. — All  white?      A. — I  had  one  Chinaman. 

Q. — For  a  cook?      A. — For  a  cook. 

Q. — Did  you  outfit  that  boat  yourself  that  year — in  1880? 
A. — I  made  out  a  list  of  all  her  stores. 

Q. — Did  you  know  the  cost  of  everything?  A. — I  do  very 
nearly. 

Q. — What  would  you  say  to  the  reasonablenoFS  of  the  sum 
of  iJiS.l 47.55  for  a  vessel  of  the  size  of  the  "Carolena."  ex- 
•  iiisive  of  the  cost  of  her  guns,  ammunition  and  boats,  for  a 
voyage  of  four  months,  or  four  months  and  a  half,  from  Vic- 
toria to  Ilehring  Sea  and  return,  carrying  eleven  men? 

Mr.  Peters:— That  question  assumes  that  this  wit- 
ticNH  has  a  knowledge  which  he  has  not  got.  In  the  first 
liliice,  it  assumes  that  he  has  a  knowledge  of  what  things 
<<iHt  at  Victoria,  which  he  has  not  pretended  to  say.  It  is 
iilso  open  to  the  ol)jection  that  it  is  asking  this  witness  to 
ditide  tlu'  very  question  which  your  Honours  have  to  d»'cide. 


iiiill 


»i 


:''ll 


IT 


W| 


;o6 


•)JHi"» 


:('.  K.   Ksiyiior — IMrcct — Cross.) 

lie  may  ^ivt*  liis  fviilciiic  tliiit  an  oiittit  ;;<>ii<-rally  losts  ho 
miK'h,  an<l  in  Iiih  opinicui  so  niucli,  Init  wlitn  you  coino  to  |int 
the  vory  (incMtion  in  the  tase,  I  tliiulv  it  is  jjoinn  a  Ittic  fnr- 
th«»r  tlian  «'XiM'rt  evidoncc,  as  tliiw  is  supposed  lo  Iw — to  a 
i-ertain  extent — can  be  allowed  to  <io. 

Mr.  Warren: — If  the  «'ourt  please,  this  witness  says  tliat 
he  has  knowh'd({e  of  the  eapaeity  of  the  "Caroleua."  has  had 
lo  experience  in  properly  eipiippinK  tlie  vessels,  and  has  used 
white  liunter». 

The  Commissioner  on  tlie  part  of  Iler  Majesty: — Why  do 
you  not  put  tlie  <]uestion  in  tlu'  abstra<t — a  vessel  of  a  cer- 
tain size,  using  the  fljiures  of  the  "t^arolena."  carrying  a  cer- 
tain number  of  men? 

Mr.  Warren: — Without  naming  the  "Carolena?" 
The  Commi»<8!oner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — 
Really,  Mr.  Warren,  is  that  going  to  do  us  any  good?  We 
have  got  his  statement  of  reasonableness — f1>  or  ^10  a  inontli 
— cannot  we  make  the  calculati<ms  oiirselves.  without  tak- 
ing up  time  now? 

Mr.  Warren: — We  do  not  insist  on  this  (luestiou. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — We 
are  of  the  opinion,  Mr.  Warien.  if  you  desire  to  put  the  (pies 
tion.  that  vou  mav  do  so. 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


Question  read  to  witness. 

A. — Well.  I  should  ssiy  it  was  very  unreasonable.  [  never 
heard  tell  of  such  a  case. 

Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Hodwell : 

Q. — Do  you  know  what  is  in  that  estimate?  You  say  thai 
it  is  unreasonable;  do  you  know  what  is  in  it?  .V. — I  do  not 
know  what  is  in  it. 

Q. — Do  you  know  what  the  articles  cost  here  in  N'ictoria? 
A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Do  you  know  what  articles  are  there?  A. — I  do  not 
know  what  articles  are  there. 

Q. — What  articles  are  you  speaking  about  when  you  say  it 
is  unreasonable?  \. — I  am  speaking  about  the  articles  that 
we  generally  carry  in  a  sealing  outtit. 

Q. —  What  are  they?  .V. — There  is  Hour,  potatoes,  Ixef, 
pork,  canned  goods  and  various  things. 

Q. — What  are  the  various  things — I  want  t'>  get  at  yoiii' 
id«'a?     \. — I   can't   exactly  itemize  everything. 

Q. — (leiierally,  you  say  llour.  pork,  and  so  on — what  else  do 
you  say?      A. — I'ork  and  beef  and  various  canned  goods. 

Q. — You  say  that  SJ.'.OOO  of  that  kind  of  stuff  is  unus'asoii 
able?      A.— Yes.  I  do. 

Q. — Would  you  say  that  |!!»70  of  that  class  of  articles  was 
unreasonable?  A. — Well.  no.  I  would  not  say  that  fitTO  was 
univasonable. 

Q. — And  ^!>.5(».78  would  be  still  less  unreasonable,  would 
it  not — wo«ld  it  be  a  very  reasonabh'  amount?  .\.— Yes,  sir, 
I  think  that  would  be  a  reasoual>l<>  amount. 

Q — . — Now.  Captain,  if  you  were  fitting  up  a  vessel  for  sen. 
to  go  sealing  for  the  first  time,  you  mighl  find  yourself 
launched  into  a  good  many  expenses  which  you  have  not 
thought  of.  would  you  not?  .\.— Oh,  of  course  it  takes  more 
to  fit  a  vessel  for  the  first  time  she  goes  sealing  than  it  does 
afterwards. 

Q.— Now.  supjiose  you  had  a  vessel  that  had  never  been 
usimI  in   sealing,  and   you    wanted   to  put   her  in   first  class 


10 


20 


507 

(('.  E.  Uaviior — Cross) 

sliiipc.  .vcMi  iiii^lit  tiiwl  .vourHcIf  IjiuikIumI  into  tin  rxpfiisc  of 
two  or  tlii'cc  thonwind  ilolliirs?     A. — Yes.  sir. 

(j. — So  that  ii  Hfiilin^  outfit  nii^lit  omt  !||t2.7-l. '_*.'>  an<1  not  to 
lie  unroaHonal)!*'?     A. —  l>o  yon  ni*-an  tlic  Nt-alin^;  otitlit? 

Q. — Now,  t'aptain,  I  mean  juHt  wiiat  .von  w<'i'<*  tail<in}; 
alxMit  a  ininnti'  a>i<> — .v(in  said  you  niifjlit  In-  lann<li«Hl  into 
an  oxi»»'nH<>  of  tliat  amount?  A. — Well.  I  mean  t»y  tliat 
wliol<>  outfit.  iM-ovisions.  boats,  (;nns,  aininniiition,  and  the 
wliolt'  tiiinff. 

H. — Yon  coiild  do  all  for  tluit?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

H. — How  do  yon  iinow  yon  could  do  it  for  that?  A. — Mo- 
('aus<>  I  haA't>  dono  it. 

{}. — On  >vhat  shijis?  A. — I  have  done  it  on  tlic  "Alpcr," 
aiul  I  hav<*  done  it  also  on  tlu'  "Harrison  Lfwis." 

ii. — >Vh<»!'»'  did  yon  outfit  the  "Alucr?"  A. — San  Fran- 
cisco. 

(J. — How  large  was  slu'?     A. — She  was  75  tons. 

{}. — How  many  boats  did  yon  lutvc?     A. — (!  boats. 

(.1. — What  did  you  ]>ay  for  them?  A. — I  paid  $*M)  apicco 
for  them. 

ii. — How  many  guns  did  you  have?  A. — 1  had  si'vcn  shot- 
^Miiis  and  six  rifl«>s. 

Q. — What  did  you  pay  for  them?  .\. — ^4()  apiece  for  tlie 
sliotgnns. 

ii. — What  did  von  pav  for  the  ritles?  A. — I  believe  I  paid 
»22.50. 

Q. — How  much  ammunition  did  yon  buy?.\. — Well,  I  can- 
30  not  jnst  exactly  say. 

Q. — How  much  did  yon  btiy?  A. — T  do  not  think  I  could 
tell  yon  exa<'tly. 

ii. — Tell  ti8  generally,  then?  A. — Well,  for  the  jwwder  1 
might  tell  yon. 

ii. — How  much  did  yon  buy  in  that  instance?  A. — I  could 
tell  you  very  near  the  i)owdt'r  that  I  bought.  I  can't  say 
exactly.     I  think  I  had  about  12  kegs  of  powder. 

Q.— At  how  much  a  keg?     A.— fl. 

ii. — What  powder  was  that?     A. — l)onbl(>  F.  (}.  powder, 

(j — American  iM)wder?     A. — Yes.  sir. 

ii. — How  much  shot  did  you  liave?      A. — I  can't  tell  yon. 

ii. — What  did  yon  pay  for  it?  A., — I  can't  tell  you  that 
citlier. 

Q. — What  else  did  you  have  b«  sides  powder  and  shot?  A. 
— I  had  some  shells. 

ti.— Loaded  shells?     A.— No.  sir. 

Q. — What  kind  of  shells?     A. — Hrass  sliells^ — empty  shells. 

Q. — And  that  is  all  you  had  as  far  as  you  can  remember? 
.^. — I  had  some  wads,  some  hooks  for  catching  seals,  kniv*^ 
and  so  on. 

<i. — The«>  are  all  the  expensive  articles  you  had?  A. — 
Yes. 

Q. — And  that  is  what  von  refer  to  when  von  sav  you  did 
it  for  «!2,(tt)0?  A.— I  did  not  say— I  said  I  done  it  for  f.S,.f)00, 
I  believe. 

(i.— That  cost  yon  ^.'^.KOO?  A.— I  believe  that  is  what  I 
said. 

ii. — With  that  amount  of  ammunition  and  your  provisions, 
your  bill  was  $'.\.Tm)  for  <mttitting— tliat  is  right,  is  it?  A.— 
W<'11,  my  advances  to  men. 

Q. — How  much  was  advanced?  .\. — Well,  I  can't  exactly 
tell  how  ninch  was  advanced — some  had  more  and  some  had 
less. 

(^— Well,  generally  lj!2n(>?       A.— More  than   that. 
Q.— •f.'^ttO?       A.— I  think  perhaps  about  six  or  seven  hnn- 
died  dollars. 


40 


60 


Wr 


•i:.    -''*' 


« 


|.      h 


5o8 


iJiM* 


Ml 


(C  E.  Ua.viioi' — Cross.) 

Q. — Wt'll,  tliat  would  lii-iiifi:  it  down  into  tlif  n«'i|;hborIiood 
«>f  $:<,()< M>—f QUO  for  advanii's  would  It'avo  .vou  f8,()UU  for  tlu; 
whole  tiling;?  Now,  this  was  in  Han  Francist-o,  and  when? 
A.— In  1887. 

Q. — Have  you  got  any  account  of  It?  A. — No,  sir.  I 
have  not. 

Q. — You  did  at  the  time?      A. — I  did  have, 
lo       Q. — And  you  remember  it  from  that  account?      A. — I  re- 
member it  very  nearly. 

Q. — Now,  then  captain,  going  out  sealing  one  year,  and 
coming  in,  if  you  want  to  start  out  next  season,  you  find  a  lot 
of  repairs  necesnary  to  your  ship,  generally,  do  you  not?  A. 
No,  sir.      I  can't  say  (hat  I  do  tlnd  a  lot  of  repairs  necessary. 

Q.— You  find  some  repairs  are  necessary?  A. — Some  re- 
pairs. 

Q. — Now,  you  are  used  to  keeping  ship's  accounts — yon  do 
keep  them  aboard  your  own  ship,  do  you  not?      A. — I  do. 
20       Q. — Now  what  account  do  you  charge  these  repairs  to?    A. 
I  diarge  them  to  the  ship's  account. 

Q. — I  know,  but  do  you  cahrge  them  to  outfit,  or  to  wliat 
account?  A. — No,  sir.  I  don't  charge  them  to  outfit;  1 
charge  them  to  ship's  acc<)unt. 

Q. — Do  you  keep  an  outfit  account?  A. — I  do,  sir — or  did 
when  I  was  outfitting. 

Q. — You  charge  them  to  ship's  acount.  What  do  you 
mean  by  "ship's  accont?"  A. — 1  mean  the  ship's  account — 
anything  that  is  to  put  her  in  repairs — fit  her  for  sea. 
30  Q. — You  make  these  entries  every  year,  do  you,  to  a  separ- 
ate account?  A. — I  make  them  every  time  that  repairs  is 
made. 

Q. — Charge  them  to  the  ship's  account?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  other  accounts  did  you  keep  on  board  your  ship? 
A. — I  keep — for  ammunition,  general  sealing  outfit,  also  ac- 
counts for  advances  and  wages  paid,  and  so  on. 

Q. — When  a  ship  is  first  launched,  she  has  all  these  things, 
you  say?      A. — Well,  not  all  of  them. 

Q. — 1  mean,  about  these  vouchers  that  you  have  been 
speaking  about,  and  looking  at — vouchers  10  and  11  and  the 
other  one — she  has  them?  A. — Yes,  sir.  She  ought  to  have 
them  to  be  ready  for  sen. 

Q. — Now,  then,  do  you  say  that  these  things  that  you  have 
been  referring  to,  are  improjier  repairs  to  be  put  on  a  ship 
before  she  starts  out — anything  wrong  about  them?  A. — 
No,  sir,  I  didn't  say  they  was  improper  to  be  put  on  a  ship. 
I  think  they  belong  to  the  ship. 

Q. — Now,  if  the  ship  was  going  to  remain  in  port,  and  not 
50     jro  out  to  sea  do  you  think  these  things  would  nwessarily 
be  required?    A. — No.  sir,  if  slie  remained  In  ]»ort  Ihey  would 
not  be  required. 

Q. — Now,  then,  in  your  exjterience  as  ..  dealer  in  ships, 
have  you  not  found  that  a  ship  sells  in  port  for  just  about 
the  same  price  if  she  does  not  have  these  little  repairs  on  her? 
A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — How  much  difference  do  you  make — what  percentage 

of  difference?      A.— Well,  sometimes  very  little  repairs  and 

60  expense  on  a  vessel  when  slie  is  selling  will  make  quite  a 

difference  in  the  selling  price  of  the  vessl.      For  instance,  if 

you  take  a  vessel  that  is  not  painted,  or . 

Q. — What  difference  would  there  be  in  her  actual  value  for 
the  purpose  of  a  voyage — wliat  percentage  of  difference?  A. 
—That  would  be  all  owing  to  what  repairs  you  wanted. 

Q.— Well,  these  repairs  would  not  have  been  looked  at 
there— mostly  ship  chandlery,  is  it  not?  A.— Well,  it  would 
be  the  difference  in  the -. 


40 


(('.  K.  Uiiyuur — Cross.) 

Q. — Now,  etiptuin,  I  do  not  want  to  tiik*?  you  »v«'r  till  tlM'w* 
iirtich'B.  Htnto  K^'nirully — these  are  mostly  ship  chandh'ry 
UD''  simihir  articles?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

kI. — Now,  would  she  be  ninch  less  valuable  for  the  purposes 
of  the  voyage  if  she  did  not  have  these  articles  on  board? 
A. — There  would  be  the  difference  In  the  price  of  the  articles. 

(2._What  did  you  have  to  do  with  the  "Llllie  L?"      A.— 
10   1  liad  nothing  to  do  with  her. 

Q._Do  you  not  know  that  there  was  a  large  sum  of 
money  spent  on  her  after  slie  was  bought  at  the  i)rlce  you 
nu'ntioned?  A. — I  know  there  was  some  money  spent  on 
lier. 

Q.— Oh.  a  good  deal,  was  there  not,  captain,  you  remember? 
A.— I  couldn't  say  a  good  deal;  I  couldn't  sny  how  much. 

Q.— You  know  there  was  some  m«ney  8p«>nt  on  her?  A.— 
1  know  they  put  a  house  on  to  her— that  is,  we  built  her  up 
{,  littlp — put  an  extra  cabin  on  to  her— and  that  like. 
:o  Q.—You  built  the  "Alger"— at  least  you  superintended  her 
( onstnution.  What  did  she  cost?  A.— The  "Alger"  cost 
j;l  0.500. 

Q.— Where  was  she  built?      A.— Seattle. 

Q._When?  A.— She  was  started  in  186<>  and  launch- 
ed  . 

Q.— You  mean  188«?      A.— 1880. 

Q.— And  tlnlshed  —  ?  A.— She  was  launched  about  the 
24th  or  25th  of  .lanuary  In  1887. 

Q.— Built  at  Seattle?      A.— Yes,  sir. 
30      Q.— Of  Douglas  tir?    A.— What  we  call  Oregon  pine. 

Q._Hame  thing,  is  it  not?    A.— Same  thing,  I  sHi)pose,  yes. 

Q. — That  is  a  good  wood  for  building  vessels?  A. — Yes, 
tliiit  is  considered  ao. 

Q.— In  fact  you  do  not  know  of  any  better,  dc  vou  Captain? 
A. — Not  on  this  coast. 

Q.— What  did  you  have  to  do  with  the  "Ada"? 

Tlie  Commissioner  on  the  jmrt  of  the  TTnited  States: — How 
large  was  that  craft  built  in  Seattle?    A. — 75  tons. 


40 


ou 


The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: 
liow  much?    A.— |ilO,i5(tO. 

Cross-examination  continued  bv  Mr.  Bodwell. 


-Cost 


Q. — Did  that  Include  her  sealing  outfit?    A. — No,  >,.- 
(i.— What  do  you  know   about   the  "Ada"?    A.— Well,   I 
('xaniini»d  the  "Ada." 
(i.— Where,  in   N'ictoria?     A.— In  Seattle  and  Port  Town- 

HC'.d. 

i.i. — A  '     r  she  came  round  from  Shanghai?     A. — Yes,  sir. 
''l — '  ^  you  know  that  they  were  offered  flO.OOO  for  her  in 
Victoria,  and  refnsed  it?     A. — I  do  not. 

Mr.  Wari-en: — If  the  court  please,  J  ii.ked  the  witness 
iil>out  the  "Ada"  if  she  was  brought  down  from  Sitka,  and 
otferi>d  for  sale  in  Seattle. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — It 
}{<t('8  to  his  competency.  The  whole  of  that  class  of  evidence 
iis  was  explained  the  other  day,  goes  entirely  to  the  com- 
petency of  the  witness.  It  is  not  proof  of  sstles,  actual  sales, 
simply  }r<H>8  to  show  his  knowledge  of  the  market. 

.Ml'.  Warren: — I  do  n«)t  obje«'t  to  the  (question  because  it  is 
'Irawing  out  incomi>etent  testimony,  but  because  i'ounsel  was 
<  oiifusiiitr  witness  about  the  fact  he  was  examined  about  be- 
fore 

Cross-examination  continued  bv  Mr.  Bodwell; 


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'^r-jJilii:!  ^^ 

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10 


30 


.-^o 


40 


50 


60 


510 

(«',   K.  llii,v»«»r— Cross.) 

Q.— I>i<l  you  Hiiy.  Ciiplniii,  that  i|il<M*(tl)  wuh  ofTrn-il  f*ii-  her 
iu  \'i<t(»riii,  )iii*l  rt'fiiH*  (1  wlu-ii  hIk*  cjiiiu-  loniid  fitnii  SIuiuk- 
liiii?     A. —  I  never  <li(l.  nil-. 

Q.— Wluit  kiiiil  of  )i  ship  wjiH  tliJH  Nnrf^iii?  A.— She  wiim  a 
tiMhiiiK  veHHel,  l2r>  toiiH. 

Q. — How  i-i),'j,'e(l ?     A. — Hilioi.iier  ri>;>{«'<'- 

(i.— Klie  was  built  in  Han  FnmciHfo?  A. —  Itnilt  in  .San 
FraneiHco. 

(i. — How  do  voii  liuaw  wiiat  slie  rowl  ?  A. — \\('ll,  1  was 
told  bv  liei  bniUlei-H  what  nIic  rost. 

Q. — NViien     was     nhe  built ?     A. — She  was  built  in 
to   be  built    in    1ST!),  aiul 


or  at 
wuN   launched 


A. — ^'eH.  sir. 
fuHtened.  do  vuu  know?     Cupper  faHten 
A. — She   WUH  copper  fasteneil   up  to  hei 


leuHt.   waH  8tart«'d 
earl.v  in  lH,so. 

(i.— And  Hhe  cost  |iL'.r>()(»? 

(i. — How  was  hIu 
«*d,  or  ordinary.* 
bendn. 

Q. — Copper  paint?     A. — The  bott«uu    was  copper  painle*!. 

{}. — She  was  a  rathei-  cheap  idiip.  waH  she  not?  A. —  I  do 
not  know  that  she  was  any  chcajier  than  any  other  vessel 
built  at  that  time. 

Q.— Tell  mo  another? 
sister  vessel  to  her. 

Q. — Huilt  at  tlie  sjinie  yard? 


A. — There  was  the  "Onward,"     a 


sir. 


another?     A. — 1 


for  the  ])urpose  of 

>n  thinkin);  of  this 

.—I  can't  think  of 


A.— Yes, 

(i. — At  the  same  time?     A. — Vos,  sir. 

Q. — That   is  not   a   comparison,   tell   mt 
don't  renHMiiber. 

Q. — Can  you  tell  me  of  another  vessel  of  that  size,  in  those 
years,  that  was  built  fiu'  any  such  price?  A. — I  can't  now. 
8ir,  no. 

(J. — You  have  been  thinking  this  o 
frivinjx  your  evidence  here.     You  ha' 
valuation  for  some  ti»ne.  have  you  n 
any  other. 

Q. — You  know  those  people  lost  money  on  that  contract, 
do  you  not?     ,\. —  I  never  heard  them  say  they  did. 

Q. — Did  you  ever  ask  tliem?     A. — I  never  asked  them.  no. 

Q. — How  lonj;  wi-re  they  in  business?  Are  they  in  busi 
ness  now?     A. — Yes.  sir.  they  are  in  business  now. 

(i. — How  did  they  ciaae  to  take  that  contract  for  that 
price,  if  you  know?  A. — I  don't  know.  1  suppose  they  took 
it  the  same  as  they  w<»uld  any  other  contract. 

Q. — In  fact,  yon  do  not  kn<»w  any  of  the  s|M'cial  circum 
stances  that  surround  the  building  of  thesi 


two  vessels,  do 
A. — She     Wiis 


'  Carolena"?     1  think 


Have 
room 


yon?     .\. — Xo,  sir. 

Q. — \Yhat     vas   the  "Carolena"   built 
built  of  fir,  I  think,  Orejfon  i>ine, 

(i.— And  she  was  .'{.")  tens?     A.— The 
she  was  iM'tween  2!")  and  .'{((  tons. 

Q. — Now,  Captain,  do  you  know  lu-r  exact  tonnufje? 
y(»u  not  been  told  it?     A. — I   have  heard  here  in  this 
since  I  have  been  here  that  she  was  27  tons.  I  believe. 

(J. — l)i("i  y<tu  not  also  heiir  that  she  was  :{2  tons?     A. — I 
wouldn't  say  that  I  did.  not  fiom  my  memory. 

li.— You  only  valued  her  at  JiM.tMMt,  is  tiuit  it?     A.— $1,200. 

Q. — AYhat  was  the  sliip  ".\nnie"  tlfat  you  sjjcak  of?    A. — 
She  was  a  sealing  vessel. 

Q. — Where  built?     A. — IJuiit   in  San  Francisco. 

Q.— When?     A.— She  was  iiuilt  in  ISSo  or  IsSfi,  I  wouldn't 
be  sure  which  year. 

Q. — Xow,   describe   her?     A. — She    was  a    vessel   schooner 
rigficd.  not  a  scow  bott<an. 

Q. — What  kind  of  a  boUom  had  she?     A. — She  had  a  sh.arp 
bottom. 

{}. — What    kin<l   el    lines?     .\. — She   liad    very   fjood   lines. 
The  fact  of  it  is,  as  near  as  J  can  tell  you,  she  was  built 


51 


(('.  K,  Hiivimr — rroMs.i 


soim-tliiiiK  ••»  <lic  in(Ml«-l  nf  one  of  tlioHc  lliilian  tlHliiii);  veti- 
soIh,  what   >vc  cull  iiii  Kiiliiiii  tlHliiii^  Ixmt. 

ii. —  llow  (lid  voii  roiiif  to  know  tiiivlliiiiK  ahoiil  It?  A. — 
ItctiiuH*'  I  Hct'ii  Ih  I'  )i  K*>*>*i  iitaii.v  tiiiifH.  m-cii  lit-r  iu  Haii  Fruii- 
ilsco,  ."«i>w  lit'!'  ill  Silka. 

(i. — Did  vou  {  vcr  no  to  m-a  in  hi-r?      A. — 1  did  not. 


10 


20 


30 


Q. — Know  an.vltod.v  flm-  that  did?  A. — Ych,  mIi-.  I  km-w 
several. 

Q.— What  did  hIic  toHl?  .\.— Tiu'  owner  and  captain  «>f 
lier  (old  Die  lie  paid  $I.IMM)  for  her, 

Q. — How  niu'h  was  her  tonna^**'.'       A. — iT)  tonH. 

(}.— Now.  do  vou  nav  that  a  vesHel  of  that  kind  could  be 
Imilt  for  »I.(MI(»  fitted  for  nea?  A.— Well.  I  think  the  cost 
of  the  vessel  probalilv  was  more  when  she  waH  built. 

ii. — You  would  not  >iive  it  as  \oiii'  opinion  here  now,  cajt- 
lain.  and  state  it  on  your  oath  that  vou  think  a  vessel  of 
iliat  kind  in  fair  condiiion  of  repair  <-ould  be  built  for  fl,(H)t)? 
\. — No.   I   wouMii't. 

iy — .\nd  if  she  sold  for  that,  there  must  have  been  some 
special  reas(Ui  wh.v  her  value  was  run  down  bo  much?  A. 
—  I  suppose  there  was  some  reas<ui. 

(^. — When  did  vou  lirst  outfit  anv  ship  for  sealiuK  purpoHea? 
A.— In  ISSO. 

iy — Where?       .\. — San  Krancisco. 

0.— When  did  yon  tirst  outfit  a  ship  in  Seattle?  A.— In 
1 SSM, 

Q. — How  nianv  vessels  alt(»p'tlier  did  vou  outfit  in  Seattle? 
v.— Two. 

Q.— When  did  yon  outfit  the  other  one?  A.— 18HH  niid 
1 SH!). 

Q.— What  was  the  one  in  ISKS?      A.— The  "AlRer." 

(J.— And  what  was  the  one  in  IHHO?  A.— The  "Ada."  tnl- 
Icfl  the  "James  rTamilton  Lewis." 

Q. — now  tn  my  men  did  you  rnny  on  tlu'  ''Alfjer?" 

The  ( 'oiiin)is,«tioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nitt'd  States: — Iu 
what  vear? 


40 


;o 


6o 


.Mr   Hodwell:-lKHS. 

Witness: — On  ihe  ".\l>,'er"'  J  carried  :'A  men. 

t^.— How  iiuich  poik  <lid  you  lake?  A. — Do  you  mean 
suit  pork? 

(.y — All  the  pork  you  had;  how  much?  A. — 1  had  si.x  bar 
I  els  of  p(U'k  and  alioiit  loO  pounds  of  ham,  and  altuut  1><I* 
|ioiiiids  of  bacon,  as  near  as  1  can  remember. 

(i. — What  did  you  pay  f<u'  it?  A-v-I  wouldn't  ti'll  you  the 
rxaci  |»rice  I  p.iid  for  it. 

(2. — Vou  cannot  tell  how  much  you  had  as  a  matter  of  fiict, 
(an  you?      A. — Yes,  sir,  I  can  tell  very  nearly. 

ti. — llow  much  did  you  pay  for  it?  A. — I  could  not  tell 
you. 

<i. — About  how  much?  You  oii^ht  to  lie  able  to  answer 
rifllit  (iff.  captain,  you  have  made  this  calculation?  .\. — I 
iliiiik  pork  in  barrels  that  Near  was  jvortii  altout.  I  am  not 
sure.  l)ut  I  think  somewhere  about  li!>'_'l>  a  Imrrel  for  perl;. 

<2- — Have  you  any  recollection  aliout  that  now.  or  are  y«»u 
insi  iiiakiii)!:  an  estin.ite?  A. —  I  am  just  making  an  esti- 
Mialc.  as  ileal   as  1  oin  remenibe''. 

^i- — I  want  to  know  how  near  it  is,  what  do  you  remember 


:il"iiiiit  it.  wIkuu  did  vou  Ituv  it  oft? 


-I  boiii'hr  it  off  a 


liMlclier  in  Seattle;  I  couldn't  t«>ll  you  his  name  now. 

(i. — Do  you  think  you  are  within  a  d<dlar  per  barrel  of  tile 
piicc?      A. — 1  think  1  am  within  a  dollar  or  two. 

(i. — Well,  are  you  iiositive  about  these  things,  captain? 
Tills  is  all  "I  think."       We  do  not  knew  if  yoi  have  a  posj^ 


.(j|i((M 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


53 


Oo 


512 

(('.  E.  Uavuor — Cross.) 

tivt'  ircollefliou  or  not,  liavo  .voii?  A. — No,  sir,  I  do  uot  pio- 
fesH  to  having  any  positive  lecolii-ction  of  what  I  paid  f(»r  any 
thing. 

Q. — Uow  niH'h  corui'd  bet'f  did  you  have?  A. — Hi  bar- 
rels. 

(■i- — What  did  you  pay  for  »liat?  A. — I  tliinlv  1  paid  fl(5  a 
barrel,  in  faet,  1  am  pretty  sure  I  i)aid  fUi  a  barrel. 

Q. — How  much  Hour  did  y<»u  have?      A. — I  had  G(»  sacks. 

y.—What  did  you  pay  for  that?  A.— Weil,  tliat  I  eould 
not  be  sure  of. 

Q. — How  much  suL;ar  did  you  have?  A. — I  had  six  half 
barrels. 

Q. — What  did  you  pay  for  it?  A.--I  couldn't  say;  some- 
where about  three  cents  a  pound. 

Q.— That  was  in  IH.SJi?      A.— I  an>  speakini,'  of  1888. 

Q. — And  you  paid  h  cents  a  pound  for  sufjar?  A. — Some- 
where about  that.  1  cannot  sav  what  I  did  pav  a  poimd  for 
it. 

Q. — Do  you  know  what  the  price  of  sugar  was  in  Victoria 
at  thai  time?  A — I  do  not  know. 

(J. — Would  you  he  surprised  to  hear  it  was  8  cents  a  pound? 
A. — Well,  I  do  not  know  as  I  would  be  surprised. 

Q. — Now,  what  other  provisions  did  you  have?  A. — I  had 
potatoes. 

Q. — What  potatoes  did  you  have?  A. — I  believe  when  I 
left  Seattle  I  had  three  tons  of  potatoes. 

Q. — What  did  the  potatoes  cost  you?      A. — I  cannot  say. 

Q. — Can  you  'ell  us  what  other  provisions  you  had?  A. — 
I  had  bt»ef,  mutton,  fruits,  milk — 

Q. — How  much  beef  did  you  have?  A. — I  had  four  cases 
of  beef. 

Q. — What  did  it  cost  you?      A. — I  cannot  say. 

Q. — How  mudi  mutton  did  you  have?      A. — Four  cases. 

Q. — What  did  that  cost  you?  A. — I  cannot  tell  you  what 
anything  cost  nu>  individually. 

Q. — You  don't  pretend  to  say,  then?       \. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Do  yon  know  how  much  jtreservcil  fruits  and  things 
of  that  kind  vou  had?  A. — Yes.  I  know  the  number  of  cases 
1  had. 

Q. — How  many?  A. — I  had  three  citses  of  table  fruit  and 
four  cases  of  pie  fruit. 

Q.— What  did  that  cost?  .\.— I  cannot  tell  you  what  it 
cost  separately. 

Q. — What  else  did  you  have?  A. — I  had  four  cases  of 
string  beans  and  four  cas(>s  of  corn. 

Q. — You  do  not  know  what  that  cost?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Wh.Tt  else  had  you?  A. — I  had  some  raisins  and 
])lums,  and  various  tilings. 

Q. —  And  you  do  not  know  what  (hese  cost?  A. — No,  sir; 
I  cannot  tell  you  what  any  one  article  cost  by  itself, 

Q. — What  was  the  toal  amount  of  your  provision  bill?  A. 
— The  total  amount  of  my  ])rovision  bill  was  about  ^il.noo. 

Q. — You  say  "about'' — are  you  within  two  or  three  liun 
dred  dollars  of  tlu>  amount?  A. — Yes,  sir,  1  am  within  otic 
hundivd  dollars  one  wav  or  the  other. 

Q.— It  might  be  |i1.<J0'n  or  it  might  be  |1.400?  A.—Y.'s, 
sir. 

The  Conimissioner  <»n  the  i»art  of  the  United  Slates: — How 
long  was  your  voyage  and  for  how  many  nu'n?  A. — I  was  lit 
ting  for  eight  months,  sir,  and  24  mm. 

Ry  Mr.  1  tod  well: 

Q. — You  could  bo.ird  24  men  more  cheaply  per  nmn  than 
you  could  II  m.n?  ,\. — Yes.  sir;  1  should  say  it  would  make 
n  little  dilferente. 


5«3 
(V.  E.  Kaju«ir— Cross.) 

out  tlio    (lifferi-nce? 


A.— I 


lo 


20 


Q. — Have  you  ever  worked 
novel'  did;  no. 

Q. — Your  experience  w  tliat  it  is  a  {jood  deal  clieajter?  A. 
—I  would  not  t.;!y  a  good  deal;  1  should  say  it  was  a  little 
elieaper. 

Q. — You  will  let  us  go  this  f.ir:  that  it  is  souiething  elieap 
er?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Now  then,  is  lliat  (lie  estimate  on  wliieh  you  based 
your  v-aleulation  of  how  nineli  jxt  nuin  it  takes*  to  outfit 
A. — Yes,  sir;  that  and  <tther  outfits. 

Q.— Is  tlie  "Alger"  a  fair  sample?  A— Well,  she  is  a  fair 
Hample  of  my  \iwn  outfit. 

Q. — ^Vell,  a  fair  4am])h>  «»f  what  you  sometinies  pay  is  f!> 
sometimes  fS,  and  sometimes  ^1(1  per  moiitli  per  man?  A. 
— Between  thet'o  figures:  yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  eannot  eouie  any  eloser  than  to  say  it  is  from  !?8 
toflO?      A.— No,  sir,  I  cannot. 

Q. — Which  do  you  say  liappens  tlu'  often«'st  in  your  expe- 
rience. fS  or  flO  a  man?  A. — Well,  I  tliink  I  And  it  happens 
tlie  often«'st  about  $!)  a  man. 

Q. — Tell  me  hov*  you  made  your  average?  W^hat  cnlcu- 
liition  did  you  go  through?  A. — I  do  not  know  that  I  went 
llirough  any. 

Q. — W'hen  did  you  omie  to  the  conclusion  that  it  cost  from 
$S  to  ^10  per  man?  A. — \Vell,  I  was  figuring  on  these  things 
when  I  was  sealing. 

Q. — How  did  you  get  at  it  then?       Did  you  know  it  the 
jO  first  year  you  were  sealing?      A. — I  mad«'  a  calculation  on  it 
tlu'  first  year.  yes. 

Q. — How  did  you  get  at  it?  A. — I  supj)ose  I  worked  it 
Mit  by  figures. 

Q.— Did  you  or  did  you  not?      A.— 1  think  I  did. 

Q._When?      A  -Well,  at  dilTerent  tinn's. 

Q. — fiive  us  one  instance  when  von  did  it?  A. — I  figured 
out  the  cost  in  ISSG  and  also  in  1SS7. 

Q.- Wluit  did  you  do  it  for?  A.— I  did  it  for  my  own 
satisfaction. 

Q.— Have  you  got  any  of  these  figures?  A. — No,  sir,  I 
liave  not. 

(i.— What  reason  liad  you  for  preparing  if  then?  .\. — Ti 
do  not  know  that  I  had  any  particular  reason.  A  man  natu 
rally  does  a  number  of  things  like  that  at  different  times. 

(i.— You  say  that  that  amount  of  Hour  on  board  the  "Caro- 
li'iia"  was  excessive?      A. — Yes.  sir,  I  think  it  was. 

(i.— How  many  j)ounds  of  flour  do  you  allow  to  a  man  for 
one  mouth?  A. — I  do  not  know  that  I  could  tell  y<»u  ex- 
actly. 

Q.— You  nmke  bread  i.i  loaves  on  board  ship?  Can  you  tell 
MIC  how  much  flour  \>  did  be  put  into  a  l(»af?  A. — I  am 
not  a  cook,  sir — I  ai!<  m<  t  putting  Hour  into  loaves  of  bread. 
1  always  figured  on  ihc  basis  for  my  crew  wlien  I  luid  24 
men.  on  about  a  barrel  or  a  barrel  and  a  lialf  of  flour  u 
month. 

(i. — To  each  man?      A. — No,  sir,  to  the  ship's  cr«'w. 

(i.— For  how  long  a  voyag«'?  A.— Ft»r  eiglit  months'  voy- 
ilge. 

t^.— What  do  you  include  in  tiie  sealing  outfit?  A. — In 
the  sealing  outfit? 

(i— Yes.  A. — I  include  the  boats,  guns,  ammunition, 
lidoks  for  ]>icking  up  seals  with,  oars,  rowhtcks.  sails,  masts, 
Imhiuis,  skinning  knives,  ripping  kni\es,  wads  for  tiu'  guns, 
stii'ls  for  sharpening  knives,  salt  for  salting  skins.  I  be- 
lieve I  have  mentioned  all. 


40 


Co 


m 


% 


if  )3 


■M 


|!:|I,j  m 
l\'\ 


(il 


'll|l||iii 


lO 


20 


40 


50 


60 


5'4 

(<'.  K.  KitviKir — Cioss.) 

Q. — Would  \(»n  nol  waul  Iniiks?  A. — TaiikH  for  soaliiij,' 
outfit? 

il. — Vi's.  A. — 1  w(»ul<l  not  call  tanks  aw  heloUKing  to  wal- 
ing outfit,  they  would  more  naturally  b<'l<»UK  to  the  Htorew. 

Q. — Would  you  want   salt?       A.--I  mentioned  salt. 

Q. — Salt  bins?  A.— That  would  be  altogether  aciordiuft 
t<»  tile  vessel.  In  tlie  vesseN  1  have  been  I  have  never  had 
any  salt  bins. 

Q. — Would  you  require  carpenteis  work  for  fixing  up  the 
quarters  for  the  erew?  .\. — Not  if  the  v»'ssel  was  ready  for 
sea. 

Q. — You  w<»uld  not  carry  2(i  men  for  merchant  trading  on 
a  shij*  the  size  of  the  ".Mger."  would  you?  A. — No,  sir,  we 
went  and  fi.xed  her  u))  after  she  was  built. 

Q. — If  she  was  not  built  for  a  sealer  would  you  not  require 
it?  A. — Yes,  if  she  was  not  built  for  a  sealer  we  would  re 
quire  the  carpenters  to  iix  her  up. 

ii. — And  you  would  want  a  signal  gun,  would  you  not? 
A. — We  generally  carry  one. 

(j. — And  a  f!)^  hoi-n?       .\. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  medicines?  A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i. — Ai'il  gaffs?  A. — I  believe  I  mentioned  hooks  for 
picking  i.p  seals  and  it  is  the  same  thing. 

(i.--You  would  want  fuel  and  (»il?  .\. — That  is  all  in  the 
stores. 

Q. — Would  you.  not  want  more  of  them  on  a  sealing  voyage 
than  you  wonid  on  an  ordinary  voyage?  A. — On  any  voyage 
of  the  same  length  of  time  you  would  need  the  same. 

Q. — For  the  same  length  of  time  and  tlie  same  number  of 
men?       .\. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  y(Mi  include  guns  and  reloading  tools?  A. — 1 
do  not  kn(»w  as  I  included  the  re-loading  tools,  but  they 
should  be  included,  of  cours(>. 

Q. — When  you  were  in  Sitka  after  the  trial  and    before, 
there  was  a  difference  as  to  the  manner  in  which  you  were 
treated,   was   there  not?      ,.\. — Well,   there   was   this  differ 
ence  then,  that   we  wei'e  in  the  jury  room  and  we  were  not- 
supposed — 

(i. — Did  you  ha'c  a  uiiard  over  you? 

The  ("oniHiissioner  cm  the  j)ar(  of  tlie  I'niled  Slates: — Let 
him  answer  the  (piesiion.  Mr.  ltodw<>ll. 

Mr.  Hodwcll: — lie  i.-<  taking  a  huig  time,  your  Honour,  to 
give  whal  is  nol  an  answer  to  my  question,  and  I  do  not  want 
to  exienti  this  thing  beyond  all  reason. 

The  witness: — There  was  a  ditt'erence  in  thia  way — 

Mr.  Modwell: — 1  can  slop  him  now,  your  Honour,  because 
he  says  there  is  a  difference,  and  that  is  what  I  asked  him. 

The  Commissiiuier  on  liie  pjM  I  of  the  I'niled  States:— That 
answers  the  tpieslion. 

Mr.  Hodwell:— Now.  then,  did  you  have  a  guard  over  you 
bef«tre  the  trial?       .\.— No,  sir. 

(^._\Vere  you  locked  in  at  night  after  the  trial?  A.— 
No,  sir. 

y. — The  door   was   never  locked?       .\. — No,  sir. 

H. —  Did  a  guard  «lay  there  at   nighl?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

y. — Was  the  guard  armed?       .\, — He  was  not. 

(i.— When  you  went  out.  did  the  guard  go  with  you?  A.— 
No,  sii'. 

(i.— Who  did?       .\.— Nobody. 

y. — Who  went  out?       .\.— 1   went  out  myself. 

Q.— Anyl-ody  else  willi  you?  A.— In  fai;l  they  all  went 
out, 


13 


515 
(C.  K.  Hiiyiior — Cross.) 

Q. — You  had  to  get  lisivc?  A. — I  had  to  ask  the  marshal, 
and  by  asking  the  marshal  we  could  mt  out. 

Q. — I>id  you  have  a  li};lit  at  uifjht?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i. — Did  you  sleep  on  the  lloor?  A. — We  slept  on  a  mat- 
tress on  the  tloor,  yes.  sir. 

(J. — You  say  yon  had  frt'sh  meat — you  mean  venison,  do 
you?      A. — I  meiin  venison,  and  sometimes  beef. 

Q. — How  often  did  yon  have  beef?  A. — I  think  probably 
t\vi>  or  three  times  a  week.  Sometimes  they  tould  not  get 
fresh  bwf  in  Sitka.  ,  ' 

g.— Was  this  In  ISSO?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

(). — Were  you  not  imprisoned  afterwards  in  another  year? 
\. — Xo,  sir. 

Q. — Yon  were  not  there  any  other  year?  \. —  I  was  there 
in  1S87,  but  I  was  not  imprisoned  at  all. 

Q. — What  were  you  doing  there  in  1HS7?      .\. — .Insr  called 
in.    The  vessel  was  seized. 
20      Q. — You  were  detained  (here  in  1H87?      .\. — I  was  detain- 
1(1  there  until  after  the  trial;  that  is,  I  was  not  detained,  but 
I  stayed  there  on  my  own  aecoi-d. 

Q. — Don'l  you  think  you  have  your  recolleetion  a  little 
iiii.xed  between  18S7  and"  18HS?      .\'.— No.  sir.  I  have  not. 

(J. — How  long  were  you  there  in  1H87?  .\. — I  cannot  say 
just  how  long  I  was  there.  I  was  (|uiie  a  while  there,  be- 
(iinse  after  the  trial  they  bonded  the  vessel,  and  it  took  me 
some  time  to  get  the  bond  made  out. 

Q. — How  many  guns  had  the  "Thornton"'  that  yo\i  saw? 

''         The  "ommissioner  on  the  part  of  the  Vnited  States: — Are 
voa  asking  about  the  "Thornton  "  now? 

.Mr.  Hodwell: — The  witness  said  the  g>ins  were  all  ticketed, 
iind  I  asked  him  how  nuiny  guns  wer<'  ticketed  that  he  saw 
(111  tl Thornton." 

The  ('ontniissioner  on  the  jiart  of  the  rnitcd  States: — You 
i'.re  doing  this  for  the  purpose  of  testing  his  memory? 

,|0       -Ml'.  Kodwell: — '\'        }(>iir  Honour. 

To  witness: — How  many  guns  wci  ■  ticketed  that  you  saw 
iM'ionging  to  the  "Thornton?"  A —In  tlie  "Tliornton. '  I 
liclieve,  there  were  four  shotguns. 

il — How  many  belonging  to  the  "Onwaid?"  A. — I  don't 
iliink  she  had  but  one  shotgun  and  one  rille. 

ii. — How  nmny  rilles  on  tlie  "Thornton?"  .V. —  I  tannot 
say.  I  do  not  remember  seeing  any  rifles  on  the  "Thorn 
Ion," 

(i — How  many  rilles  on  the  "Carolena?"  .\. — There  were 
four. 

Q. — Four  ritles  and  four  shotguns?       .\. — Yes.  siiv 

Q. — Hid  you  see  the  yawl?  .\. — To  the  best  of  my  mem- 
"ty  there  was  a  yawl. 

<i. — Why  do  you  (pialify  that?  You  speak  very  plainly 
about  other  things,  but  I  notice  that  every  tiini'  you  are  ask- 
ed about  the  boat  you  say  to  the  best  of  your  memory?  .\. 
—There  was  a  ytiwl. 
C(1  Q- — '^i'''  yo'i  ^^'ife  of  it?  .\. — Yes,  I  think  I  saw  a  yawl 
on  Iier. 

Q. — When  did  you  see  i.t  ?  .\.— The  llist  time  I  went  on 
board  of  her. 

Q— Where  did  you  see  it.  on  the  ship?  .\. — It  was  ahmg 
siilc  of  her. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — In  the  sea? 

Tile  witness: — Yes.  sir. 


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10 


20 


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40 


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60 


516 

{(".  E.  Jiii.vnor — Cross.) 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Witlj  tlu'  hawser? 

The  witness: — Ves,  sir. 

Mr.  Bodwell:— What  kind  of  a  yawl  was  it?  A. — As  I  re- 
member, it  was  a  kind  of  a  clinker  built  b(»at. 

Q. — What  was  it  worth?  A. — Probably  between  |1<5  and 
*17. 

Q. — It  was  not  much  of  a  boat,  was  it?  A. — No,  sir;  if 
was  not  much  of  a  boat.  It  was  a  small  boat  and  a  boat 
that  had  been  used  a  good  deal. 

Q. — When  did  they  take  the  canoes  ashore  from  the  "far 
olena?"  A. — I  think  they  took  the  canoes  ashore,  at  least 
two  of  them,  I  think  they  took  them  ashore  the  next  day 
after  she  came  in. 

Q. — And  they  kei)t  them  on  shore,  did  they  not?  A. — 
They  kej»t  two  on  shore  and  she  had  two  canoes  to  go  ashore. 

Q. — Are  yon  sure  about  that,  now?  Did  they  not  take 
all  the  canoes  on  shore?      A. — No,  sir.  they  did  not. 

Q. — When  you  went  on  board  you  told  us  you  only  found 
how  many  boxes  of  biscuits?      A. — 1  seen  two  boxes  of  bread 

Q. — And  what  else?      A. — About  12  or  14  sacks  of  Hour. 

Q. — Any  other  ))rovisions?      A. — No.  sir. 

Q. — When  did  you  see  that?  How  long  after  she  got  info 
Ounalaskn?  A. — 1  believe  it  was  two  or  three  days  after 
that,  but  I  cannot  say  positively  as  to  the  time. 

Q.— Was  that  before  or  after  the  "St.  Taul"  went  out?  A 
— It  was  before  the  "8t.  I'aul"  went  out. 

Q. — Are  you  sure  about  that  now?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q — You  examined  these  things  before  that?  A. — I  nevei 
said  I  examined  these  things. 

Q. — That  is  all  you  saw  then?  A. — I  seen  them  pas.sed 
out,  that  is  all. 

Q. — That  is  all  you  saw  passed  out?  A. — Tiiat  is  all  in 
the  way  of  provisions. 

Q. — How  many  men  did  they  ship  away  on  the  "St.  Paul" 
from  Ounalaska  of  the  cr<'ws  of  the  seized  vessels?  A. — I 
cannot  exactly  tell  the  numl)er. 

Q. — Were  thore  not  1!>?  A. — I  <annot  say  as  to  that. 
They  shipped  away  the  '("arolena's"  crew  and  the  while 
men  that  were  on  the  "Thornton." 

Q. — Were  there  not  1!»  in  all?  A. —  1  cannot  say  as  t<» 
that. 

y.— Do  you  not  know  how  many  white  men  there  were  on 
the  "Thornton?"     A. — I  do  not  know  how  many  there  were 

ii. — -Ml  the  white  men  on  llie  "Thornton"  and  all  the  crew 
of  the  "Carolena"  excei)t  the  master  and  mate  were  shijJiM'tl 
to  San  B'l-ancisco,  were  they  not?      A. — They  were. 

Q. — And  these  lit  men  were  prc^visictned  for  their  voyage 
out  of  the  stiH'es  of  the  "Carolena,"  were  they  not?  A. — 1 
never  heard  tell  of  it.  sir. 

Q. — Will  you  say  they  were  not?  A. — I  would  not  sny 
they  were  not.  only  I  never  heard  of  it. 

Q. — When  was  this  inventory  taken?  A. — It  was  taken 
two  or  thre<'  days  after  the  vessel  came  in. 

(). — When  you  saw  these  things  taken  out  you  tell  us  it 
was  about  the  time  of  the  inventory,  was  it  not?  A. — Yes. 
sir. 

Q. — Now,  caplain.  you  did  not  see  that  inventory  from  that 
day  until  the  time  you  wer«'  showetl  it  in  court  her<'  yester 
day?      A. — No.  sir.  1  did  not. 

ii. — .\nd  you  had  no  occasion  to  think  of  it  since?  .V.— 
No.  sir. 

Q. — ^'ou  lold  us  yesterday  that  the  inventory  was  correct 
and  that  you  rtMnembcred  thai  thcsi'  (hings  were  taken  out 
of  th<'  ship  at  the  lime. 


;i; 


10 


(('.  E.  Raynor — i'rosH.) 

Mr.  Wiirrt'ii: — II<'  wsih  (»nly  aHkod  about  (lu-  pruvisioiis  and 
Iw  said  tht«  list  was  cornM-t  in  that  rrH|»«'(t.  That  was  all 
I  called  his  attention  to  at  tlie  time. 

The  ConiiniHsioner  «»n  the  part  of  the  I'nlted  States: — I 
called  Ms  attention  at  the  time  to  whether  his  answer 
meant  the  whole  list  or  ineii»ly  the  provisions  in  the  list,  and 
he  said  it  referred  to  the  iH'ovisions. 

Mr.  Kodwell- 

Q. — When  you  were  asked  that  question  yesterday  you 
did  take  that  list  in  your  hand  and  look  through  it?  A. — 
Yes.  sir. 

Q. — You  did  undertake  to  say  it  was  correct?  A. — I  un- 
dertook to  say  as  to  provisions.  No  man  could  undertake 
to  no  over  that  inventory  and  say  if  all  these  items  are  cor- 
rect. 
Q. — Having;  gone  tlirouj^h  it  yesterday,  can  you  tell  m«> 
^°  anything  that  was  on  that  ship  that  is  included  in  this  in- 
ventory? A. — There  were  boats,  and  pans,  and  tinware, 
and  one  thing  or  another. 

Q. — How  do  you  remember  as  to  th«'  provisions  and  re- 
member nothing  else?  A. — I  naturally  took  more  notice  of 
the  provisions  than  I  would  of  anything  else. 

Q. — \Yhy  was  that?  A. — \Yell,  it  is  a  natural  thing  for 
a  person  to  do  that,  and  for  a  s(>afaring  man  especially. 

Q. — And  all  the  provisions  they  had  on  Itoard,  you  would 
have  us  believe,  weri'  the  biscuits  and  the  flour?      A. — That 
^'^  is  iill  I  saw. 

i-l. — As  a  matter  of  fact,  do  you  think  for  a  minut*'  that 
that  was  all  the  provisions  they  hud  on  board  when  they 
came  into  port,  do  you?  A. — I  don't  think  about  it  as  I 
know  of,  that  is  all  I  saw  there. 

Q. — Don't  you  know  that  there  were  six  boxes  of  jdlot 
bread  as  a  matter  of  fact  shipped  im  board  the  "^t.  Paul?" 
A. — I  do  not,  sir. 

(i. — Would  you  be  very    much    surprised    to    hear    there 
were?      A. — I  do  not  know  as  I  should  be  much  surprised 
■^    at  anything. 

y. — That  is  to  say  you  would  not  be  surprised  to  find  that 
aujount  of  bread  on  board  the  "('arolena'/"  A. — Yes,  sir, 
I  think  I  should. 

(i- — That  is  <me  thing  that  would  surprise  vou,  is  it?  A. — 
Yes. 

(i. — Were  you  not  surprised  when  you  found  them  with 
that  amount  of  flour?  A. — No.  sir,  I  think  she  had  a  very 
good  amount  of  flour,  in  fact  a  large  amount  of  rto\ir  for  that 
time  of  the  year  and  (hat  vt'ssel. 

(i. — And  do  you  think  they  would  have  a  large  amount  of 
Hour  and  a  large  amount  (if  bread  and  not  have  a  corre- 
s])(tnding  amount  of  meat  and  vegetables  and  things  of  that 
sort?  \. — I  don't  know  anything  about  that;  all  I  know  is 
that  I  did  not  see  them. 

Q. — Do  you  know  what  day  the  ''('nrolena"  arrived  in  port 
iit  Ounalnska?      A. — Not  exactly,  sir. 

(i. — Sh«'  was  seized  on  the  1st  ,'ind  you  were  in  her  com- 
pany at  the  time  of  the  seizure?  .\. — I  was  seized  before 
lier. 

Q- — Yo>i  were  in  tow  of  the  cutter  nt  the  time  she  was 
seized?      A.— N*o,  sir,  I  was  not. 

Q- — Were  you  seized  before  or  after?  A. — I  was  seized 
Itcfore. 

Q— Vou  were  in  Ounalaska  when  she  came  in?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q.— The  "Carolena"  was  seized  nt  lfift:10  west  hmgitnde 
iind  tt:,m  north  latitude.      That  is  (he  position.      Now.  how 


50 


rxi 


8- 

U 

■r'     H 


;nr 


nM 


m 


WW 


518 


'lil'll 


IIP 


10 


20 


30 


((.'.  E.  Hiivnor — Cross.) 

long  would  it  taki-  her  to  ronu'  to  OunaluHka  in  tow  of  the 
cutter  from  that  poHition?  A. — Well,  tliat  would  all  de- 
IM'ud  on  cifcunistaiHes. 

Q. — I  know,  but  I  ask  von  under  ordinary  cireunistances? 
A. — If  the  cutter  came  right  straight  along  with  her  I  sup- 
|ios<>  it  would  take  her  about  \'2  or  14  hours. 

Q. — And  she  being  seized  on  the  1st  August  she  would  be 
in  Ounalaska  some  tinu'  on  the  2nd?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — And  you  say  this  inventory  was  taken  two  or  three 
days  after  the  "t'arolena"  arrived  in  port?  A. — Yes.  sir; 
that  is  the  best  of  my  memory  now. 

Q. — That  is  the  best  memory  you  have,  is  it?  A. — Two  or 
three  days,  or  it  miglit  have  been  five  or  six  days. 

Q. — Well,  I  want  to  know.  I  want  to  see  what  your  mem 
orv  is.  Was  it  two  or  three  days,  or  was  it  five  or  six  days? 
A. — I  cannot  say;  I  did  not  give  any  certain  day — approxi 
mately. 

Q. — Kut  you  were  ready  a  niinuti'  ago  to  give  a  certain 
day?  A. — I  said  two  or  three  days,  but  it  might  have  been 
longer. 

(j. — IJut  two  or  three  days  is  your  re<'ollection?  A. — Yes. 
sir;  two  or  three  days  or  more;  it  might  have  been  less — I  do 
not  know. 

Q. — Was  it  more  or  was  it  less?  What  is  your  memory? 
That  is  all  I  want?      A.— I  cannot  tell  exactly. 

Q. — ITave  you  no  memory  about  it  then?  A. — Certainl.. 
I  have  a  nu'mory  about  it.      1  seen  it  done. 

Q. — And  you  fix  it  at  two  or  three  days?  A. — Yes.  sir; 
that  is  what  I  said. 

Q. — Will  yon  look  at  the  l.'ist  page  of  that  inventory  and 
tell  us  what  day  it  is  dated  on? 

llr.  Warren: — I  sulmiif  that  the  witness  cannot  be  asked 
to  tell  if  that  is  the  date  of  the  inventory.  lie  is  not  com 
petent  to  do  so. 

Mr.  Bod  well: — The  witness  is  competent  to  tell  what  is 
the  date  at  the  foot  of  that  inventory. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  T'nited  States: — You 
could  read  it  yourself;  that  is  not  an  original  pajter. 

Mr.  Rodwell: — I  do  not  know  that  I  am  obliged  to,  ;.(iu' 
Honour.  I  think  I  have  the  ritiht  to  ask  the  witness  to  read 
it. 

Mr.  Warren:— Thai  is  the  receipt  of  the  marshal.  That 
is  the  date  of  the  receipt  and  not  the  date  of  the  inventory. 

50  Mr.  Hodwell  to  witness.— That  date  at  the  bottom  of  that 
page  of  Kxhibil  V2.  (I.  V...  is  the  14th  of  August,  lH8fi;  that 
is  the  date  that  you  see  there?       .\. — Yes. 

Q. — Will  you  swear  thar  was  not  the  date  on  which  the 
inventory  was  taken?  .\. — Well.  I  cannot  swear  to  that. 
I  say  tliat  I  do  not  know  exactly. 

Q.— Will  you  swear  that  at  tliat  date  the  "St.  Panl"  was 
in  Ounalaskii?      .\. — On  the  14th  .\ugnst? 

Q. — Yes.  on  the  14th  .\ugust?  .\. — No,  sir,  I  cannot  swear 
60    tliiit  even. 

Q. — Don't  you  know,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  that  slu'  had  left 
bi'fore  that  date?      A. — \o.  I  do  not  know  as  a  matter  of  fact. 

Q. — You  were  there  when  she  did  leave?      .\. — I  was. 

Q. — Did  you  keep  a  log?      A. — I  d'd  not. 

Q. — How  many  men  did  you  take  in  th(>  "San  Diego"  from 
Ounalaska  to  Sitka?      A.— I  believe  I  had  2.5. 

Q. — .\nd  she  was  ;>  vessel  of  how  many  tons?  .\. — .T' 
tons. 


40 


10 


20 


;'9 

((.'.  E.  Uaynor — <'r(>sH — ICf-diicct.) 

Q. — Uow  inufh  cuhin  room  ha«l  shf?  What  was  tlu*  size 
of  her  cabin?    A. — The  fabin  was  12  tV  't  long. 

Q. — And  these  men  had  all  to  sleep  in  that  cabin  and  live 
thei"e?      A. — No.  sir. 

Q. — Where  did  they  >;<>"'  •^- — '•'•'•'  Indians  slept  and  the 
greater  part  of  the  men  slept  in  the  vessel's  hold  the  same  as 
they  did  aboard  their  own  vessel. 

Q. — How  nmny  had  yon  in  the  cabin?  A. — 1  cannot  ii\\*' 
the  exact  number  without  recalling  the  names  to  mind. 

H. — K  or  1((  or  12?      A. — No.  sir.  about  four  or  tive. 

Q.— The  "San  Diego"  did  leak,  did  she  not?  A.— She 
leaked  about  tfie  same  as  all  other  vessels. 

Q.— Is  it  not  so  that  slu'  was  leaking  water  on  that  trip? 
.\. — I  suppose  she  would  make  four  barrels  a  day  in  24 
liours,  no  more  than  that. 

Q. — How  long  were  yon  making  the  trip?  A. — 1  was  12 
days. 

ti. — When  y<»u  s|M>ak  of  the  bedding  the  men  had  in  the 
court  house  at  Sitka  you  refer  to  their  blankets,  don't  you? 
.v. — I  referred  to  their  blankets  and  mattresses. 

y. — Did  they  all  have  mattresses?       A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Had  Marketich  one?  To  my  recollection  he 
had  one.  If  he  had  one  on  board  tli<'  vessel  he  had  one  up 
there. 

Q. — Von  don't  kn«»w  whether  he  had  one  on  board  the  ves 
sel  or  not?      A. — No.  sir.  but  I  naturally  sui)p<»se  he  had. 

Q. — Yon  are  just  giving  us  that  sort  of  evidence  as  to  what 
^0  .vou  naturally  sn)>]K)se.  as  a  matter  of  fact,  yon  have  no  re 
collection  about  it?       A. —  I   have  !i   n'colledion.  they  had  a 
blanket. 

Q. — Did  Marketich  have  one?     A. — I  believe  he  did. 

i}. — Were  you  one  of  the  parties  who  went  out  after 
Ogilvie  or  did  you  find  him?  A. — I  never  went  out  to  find 
him  anywhere. 

(i. — Yoti  said  "we"  found  him — you  don't   mean  you  were 
there?    A. — If  I  sjiid  "we"  found  liim  I  made  a  mistake.     I 
was  there  after  he  was  found.     He  was  found  by  two  little 
40   Indian  boys. 

<l. — When  yo\i  saw  him  did  he  have  a  razor  in  his  hand? 
.V. — When  I  saw  him  first  he  was  laying  on  his  face  and  the 
doctor  turned  him  over  and  the  ra/.or  fell  out  of  his  hand. 

ti.— Where  was  that?    A.— In  Sitka. 

Q. — I  kn<»w.  but  I  mean  in  what  part?  A. — It  was  back  of 
the  Indian  village  close  to  the  old   Russian  cemetery. 

Q. — Out  in  the  woods?     A. — In  the  brush. 

Q. — It  was  away  from   the   village?      ,\. — It  wms  about  a 
hundred  yards  back  of  the  Indian  village. 
'"       Q. — How  long  had  he  been  there  before  he  was  found?     .\. 
— I  cannot  say.  it  was  somewhere  fiom  a  month  t«»  about  six 
weeks. 

Redirect  examination  by  Mr.  Warren: 

(i. — When  you  were  telling  us  of  the  cost  of  the  outfit  of 
the  "Alger"  you  said  it  was  |:<.5(Ml.  What  year  was  that? 
A.— That  was  in  188S. 

(2. — How  inanv  men  did  vom  have  on  Inward  as  a  crew? 
60   .v.— 24  mr-n. 

(i. — For  how  long  a  cruise  did  you  go  out  for?  A. — We  fit- 
ted for  eight  months. 

Q.— That  f:«.5(M»  was  the  cost  of  the  first  outfit  of  llie 
".Mger."  was  it  not?    A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q.— That  is  the  first  time  she  had  ever  been  outfitted?  A. 
— Ves.  sir. 

Q. — And  everything  was  new?     A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — That  included  six  new  boats?     .\. — Yes.  sir. 


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((*.  K.  Rii.vnor— U«'-<lir('t't.) 

Q.— Did  that  incliidi'  thf  Htoru  boat?  A.— Tho  Htern  boat 
coiintt'd.  I  nirried  a  liuntinj;  boat  on  the  stern  the  Hame  as 
the  otliei'B.     1  liad  mx  boats. 

Q. — It  inchided  new  guns?    A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q. — And  tlie  eost  of  ninmunition?      A. — Yes,  sir. 
(i. — And  in  fact  everytliinp  tliat  went  on  lioard  the  "Al- 
^er"  for  a  trip  of  eljjlit  niontlis  with  24  men?    A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q. — On  tliat  trip  did  tlie  cost  of  fo(Kl  for  tlie  crew  average 
more  tlian  from  8  to  fit)  per  montli  per  man?    A, — No,  sir. 

Q. — Did  tliat  basis  wliich  .vou  now  aivv  for  estimating  tlio 
eost  of  the  outfit  per  man  hold  true  in  that  particular  case? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

(J. — Is  that  true  as  regards  the  several  voyages  that  you 
have  been  aslied  about  by  Mr.  Ilodwell?    A. — Yvs,  sir. 

Q.— You  sav  that  the  cost  of  the  "Alger"  built  in  188(i  and 
1887  in  Seattle  was  filt),500??    A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — She  was  not  built  by  contract?  A. — No,  sir,  she  was 
built  by  djiy  work. 

Q. — Just  tell  the  Commissioners  how  that  boat  ^wi.-.  built 
and  why  the  cost  was  more  than  that  of  other  boats?  A. — 
Well,  she  was  heavier  framed  and  heavier  fastened,  and  we 
bnilt  her  under  adverse  circumstances,  that  is,  it  was  in  the 
winter  season  and  raining,  and  we  had  to  build  a  shed  over 
her,  and  had  a  good  many  expenses  that  would  not  be  on  an- 
other vessel  of  her  size. 

Q. — She  was  copi»er  fastened?  A. — No,  she  was  galvan- 
ized fastened. 

Q. — You  were  asked  as  to  whether  you  were    in    confine- 
ment in  1886  and  1887  at  Sitka.      In  1887  you  wer3  not  con- 
fined or  iini)nsoned  at  all,  were  you?    A. — No,  sir. 
Q. — Or  re-arrested?       A. — Noj  sir. 
Q. — Or  complained  of  personally?      A. — No,  sir. 
Q. — So  that  there  is  no  mistake  that  you  are  giving  your 
recollections  of  the  year  lH8(i?      A. — There  is  no  mistake  at 
all,  .sir;  it  was  in  LS.Sti. 

Q. — What  time  of  the  year  were  you  taken  into  Sitka  in 
1SS7?  — A. — I  think  I  got  there  somewhere  about  the  20th 
of  Sei»t(>mber.      I  cannot  exactly  place  the  date. 

Q. — You  w«'r(«  not  taken  into  Ounalaska?  A. — In  1887  we 
\v<'re  taken  into  Ounalaska,  but  I  think  we  only  lay  there 
two  or  three  days;  it  was  a  very  short  time. 

Q. — When  you  speak  of  the  trial  at  Sitka  in  1887,  ,>ou  speak 
of  the  trial  of  the  vessel  and  not  of  your  own  trial?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  were  not  tried  in  1887?  A. — No,  sir;  it  was  the 
trial  of  the  vessel. 

Q. — Did  you  see  any  provisions  taken  off  the  "Carolena" 
and  juit  on  the  "St.  I'siul?'      A.— I  did  not. 

Q. — Did  you  see  any  provisions  taken  off  any  of  the  vessels 
and  put  on  the  "St.  I'aul?"      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Some  of  the  provisions  of  the  Onward  were  taken  on 
board  the  "San  Diego?"       A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q. — You  remembei'  that?      A. — Y<'S,  sir. 
Q. — And  you  could  distinguish  them  from  the  provisions 
that  was  on  board  the  "Carolena?"      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — About  the  datt!  of  this  inventory,  yon  do  not  kn(»w 
when  the  marshal  signed  his  receipt  from  Lieut.  Cantwell  for 
the  gc»ods  did  you?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — You  did  not  have  anything  to  do  with  that?  A. — No, 
sir. 

Q. — YoH  wer<>  not  there  when  it  was  done?      A. — No,  sir. 
Q. — You  are  speaking  of  your  recollection  as  to  when  the 
inventory  was  taken?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — The  inventory  was  taken  at  Ounalaska,  of  conree? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 


521 

(<'.  K.  Uavnor — Uc-din-ct — Kt'-ci-oss.) 

Q. — When  you  told  of  <_'apt.  OKilvie  bciuf;  fo"u(l  biu-k  «>f 
Ihc  Indian  vilhigo  and  the  Hurgcon  turning  him  over,  was  that 
a  n'Hidcnt  ph.vHician?  A. — It  was  the  rcwidont  phvHician  of 
Sitka. 

(i. — Two  little  Indian  bo.vs  «*anii'  in  and  reported  they  had 
found  the  dead  man  and  .vou  with  several  (tthers  went  out? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  saw  him  in  the  original  spot  in  which  he  was 
■"  found?      Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  in  the  sam<'  position  as  far  as  you  believe?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — It  was  not  in  the  woods,  was  it?  A. — Well,  it  was  in 
Ihe  woods,  it  was  in  a  patch  of  alder  bush. 

Q. — There  is  another  question  which  I  forgot  to  ask  in  di- 
rect examination.  Do  you  know  whether  any  of  the  oth- 
ers paid  fines  or  not?      A. — They  did  not. 

Q. — They  were  discharged  of  their  fines  were  they  not?  A. 
20  --Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Bodwell: — That  question  was  not  asked  in  examina- 
tion in  chief  and  I  presume  I  have  a  right  to  cross-examine 
about  it. 

Mr.  Warren: — Yes,  I  stated  that. 

Re-cross-examination  by  Mr.  Bodwell: 

Q. — How  do  you  know  that  none  of  the  others  paid  a  fine? 
A. — I  know  by  what  they  told  me  and  and  I  know  by  when 
,Q  they  were  brought  before  the  Judge  and  the  fines  remitted. 

Q. — The  fines  were  remitted ?     A. — Yes,  air. 

Q.— When  did  that  happen?  A  —It  happened  in  1880 
when  we  were  discharged. 

Q. — You  remember  that  distinctly  do  you?  A. — I  remem- 
ber it.      Some  of  them  wanted  to  go  away  on  the  steamer. 

Q. — They  were  brought  in  open  Court?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Before  the  Judge?      .\. — Yea,  sir. 

Q. — And  the  'lues  ^yere  remitted?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Who  was  there  at  that  time  and  what  fines  were  re- 
mitted? A. — Well  (he  captains  of  the  schooners  and  the 
inatea,  that  is  C'apt.  Monroe  and  the  captain  of  the  Thorn- 
ton. I  forget  his  name. 

Q.— And  the  mate  of  the  'Thjrnton?"  A.— The  mate  of 
Uie  "Thornton. 

Q. — And  the  captain  of  the  "Onward?"  A. — The  captain 
of  the  'Onward." 

Q.—  .\nd  the  mate  of  the  "Onwacd?"      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— And  the  mate  of  the  "('arolena?"      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — All  these  were  present  at  one  time?  A. — No,  sir,  I 
50  believe  the  mate  of  (lie  "Onward"  was  discharged  first.  He 
waa  discharged  some  four  or  five  days  before. 

Q.— Were  you  there  when  the  mate  of  the  "Onward"  w.is 
discharged?    A. — I  was  there,  yes. 

Q. — Were  you  in  court  when  the  mate  of  the  "Thornton" 
was  discharged  and  his  fine  remitted  in  open  court?  A. — I 
was. 

Q.— What  was  the  name  of  the  mate  of  the  "Thoniton"? 
\. — I  cannot  recoll«>ct  his  name. 

Q. — Was  it  Harry  Norman?  A. — I  do  not  know,  I  cannot 
say. 

(i— Would  you  knov.'  he  was  the  mate  of  the  "Thornton"? 
A. — Yea,  I  know  the  mate  of  the  "Thornton"  was  there. 

Q. — Did  you  say  how  long  after  the  sentence  nnder  which 
yon  were  imprisoned  this  waa? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — He  waa  not  imprisoned. 

Mr.  Bodwell: — The  record  says  he  was  imprisoned  and  I 
nin  going  by  that. 


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(i\  K.  Ittiynor — Ht*  (1-088.) 

Tht'  witiu'MH:^l»o  you  unk  in»'  how  lonji  it  \\;\h  sifter  the 
sentence? 

Mr.  Flodwell:— YeH. 

The  witness: — I  believe  it  was  about  15  dn.vs. 

Tliis  eloHed  tlie  exaniination  of  tlie  witnens. 

Mr.  IMi-liinHon: — I  desire  to  call  the  attention  of  the  Pom- 
niissioners  to  pan*'  <»-  of  the  tinal  print  of  the  rejwrt  of  this 
ease  where  there  is  ftiven  an  extract  from  one  of  the  d«M'n 
ments — printed  I  think  in  the  Itritish  case — of  what  purports 
to  be  the  Revised  Statutes  of  the  I'nited  Htattw.  1  have  ex- 
amined these  sections  that  are  printed,  and  I  And  some  of  the 
statutes  are  obsolete.  The.v  are  not  a  correct  presentation  of 
ihe  I'nited  States  hiw,  as  for  instance:  The  judiciary  of  Alaska 
or  the  territorial  (joverninent  had  not  be<'n  orjjanized  at  the 
time,  no  courts  had  been  established.  Anttther  material 
chanf<;e  is  that  the  intention  of  the  provisions  for  the  protec 
tion  of  the  seal  tisheries  had  been  legislatively  extended; 
the  intention  had  been  declared  by  the  ('(m^ress  of  the 
I'nited  States  to  apply  to  all  the  waters  of  the  Hehrinjj  Sea 
in  effect.  What  I  rose  more  particularly  for  was  to  call  the 
attention  of  the  court  to  the  publication  of  the  statutes  in 
the  record  as  part  of  the  evidence,  and  lo  suRRest  that  the 
Commissioners  [H'rmit  us  (m  both  sides,  when  it  bectnnes 
material  to  show  the  law  on  either  side,  to  refer  to  the  au- 
thoritative publications  of  both  c<Hintries.  Of  course,  if  we 
were  coming  into  a  Itritish  court  and  the  statutes  of  the 
I'nited  States  becanu'  material,  it  would  be  neccsssiry  for  us 
to  prove  the  statutes,  or  on  the  other  side  it  would  be  neces- 
sary to  prove  the  statutes  of  (ireat  Itritain  or  of  the  Domin- 
ion of  Canadii.  Hut  as  this  is  an  international  court  I  as- 
sume that  your  Honours  would  take  judicial  notice  of  the 
statutes  of  either  country. 

The  Commissionei'  on  the  part  of  t\\f  I'nited  States: — Do 
you  mean  you  want  them  in  your  printed  argument? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — We  want  on  both  sides  to  be  able  to  refer 
to  the  statutes  withcuit  |)rovin}i  them  in  the  case. 

The  CommissioniM-  im  the  jiart  of  the  I'nited  States : — When 
you  make  your  jtririted  argumeni.s  you  want  at  any  time  to 
refer  to  the  statutes  of  (Jreat  nritain  or  of  the  United  States? 

Mr.  Dickinson; — Yes.  youi-  Honour,  I  would  like  to  have 
that   understanding. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — It  might 
be  well  at  some  stage  for  counsel  on  each  side  to  give  notice 
to  the  other  of  the  statutes  to  be  referred  to.  l'erliai)s  you 
might  set  th«'m  out  to  ea<h  other. 


Mr. 


-Yes,  we  should  know  that. 


Beique 

The  Commissioner  on  the  i»art  of  Her  Majesty: — Will  you 

cite  what  sections  of  the  law  are  likely  to  be  relied  on  and 

in     what     terms      the    enactments    are    nmde?      I    do    not 

mean  to  .say  that  it  would  be  necessary  to  call  witnesses  as  to 

60  either.  , , 

Mr.  Dickins(m: — 1  desire  lo  call  attention  to  it.  or  otlier 
wise  it  might  be  said  that  we  assented,  that  this  was  the  law 
of  the  United  States.  It  was  at  one  time.  It  was  not  put 
in,  of  course,  for  thai  purpose,  but  only  as  part  of  the  corres- 
pondence. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — I 
understand  your  proposition  is:  (hat  W'v  are  to  have  it  under- 


10 


5-'3 
ilMHi'iiHHion  oil  St:itul*-  hanvs.) 

Htmid  iiikI  on  rcconl  now  llial  wt-  will  liik<-  jiitliciiil  ro^rni- 
ziinct'  of  the  liiws  of  till'  I'nhi-d  Sliilt's  iiikI  of  <!r<-iit  Itritiiin 
aiid  of  tlif  Doniinion  of  r:iiijMl)i,  pfitintiit  l(»  llit-sc  i|iicstionH 
licr<'. 

Mr.  IHrkiiiHon: — I'icciNclv. 

Mr,  IV'Icrs: — Tliiil  iH'opositioii  we  (|iiit«'  aifnc  witli,  but  if 
Ihcr*'  Ih  an.v  Hpoiiil  sliitiilc  that  coiiuhcI  on  tlu*  (itlici-  4i<]«'  in- 
tend to  rvly  upon  we  think  they  Hhuiild  j:iv«'  U8  clear  notioe 
of  Hiich.  \Ve  also  think  it  would  lie  well.  iiiileHS  it  ih  len^tliy, 
to  let  it  m\  into  the  ease.  This  paitienlar  document  whicli 
has  f;ot  into  the  case  now.  happens  to  be  part  of  a  letter  that 
was  written  by  .Mr.  Itayard  to  Sir  Lionel  Hackville  West,  and 
inclosed  to  him  at  that  time  as  a  statute  of  the  I'nited  States 
relating  to  this  matter.  .Mr.  Dickinson  states  tlint  some  of 
these  statutes  are  obsolete. 

Mr.   Dickinson: — And  were  before  these  occurrences  camo 
2°  about. 

Mr.  Peters: — Of  course,  when  .Mr.  Dickinson  makes  that 
statement  I  assume  that  there  has  been  stuiie  change  in  the 
law.  but  all  this  was  juit  in  as  part  of  the  correspondence, 
and  referred  to  by  .Mr.  ISayard  as  follows: 

"The  laws  of  the  I'nited  States  in  this  beiialf  are  contained 

in  the  revised  statutes  relatin};  to  .Maska   in  Sections  lOoO- 

l!t71  and  liave  tieen  in  force  for  u]>w'ards  of  17  years;  and 

prior  t<»  the  .sei/.iires  of  last  summer,  but  a  single  infnictiap 

30  is  known  to  have  occurred." 

Then  in  that  particular  letter  the  very  statute  which  Mr. 
Dickinson  states  to  have  been  obsolete  is  set  out  as  the  stat- 
ute then  in  force.  I'nder  those  ciroumstances.  if  .Mr.  Dick- 
inson claims  that  there  are  any  other  statutes  that  i|ualify, 
alter,  or  change  these  statutes,  so  as  to  brinp  some  n«'W  point 
to  the  notice  of  this  conimissicm.  it  is  (mly  proper  that  he 
should  brin^  that  to  our  attention. 

The  ('(mimissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  Slates: — Will 
40    that  be  brouglit  out  before  the  evidence  is  closi'd  or  in  ihe 
course  of  the  argument? 

Mr.  Peters: — I  should  think  it  should  be  fair  t  »  have  't 
before  the  evidence  is  closed.  I  do  not  say  that  it  need  no 
down  on  the  netes  of  this  Commission. 

The  Commissioner  on  Ihe  part  <tf  Her  Majesty:  —There  is 
a  reason  why  the  statutes  should  be  brouji;lit  to  the  attention 
of  the  CommissioiU'i's.  It  is  not  always  easy  for  one  to  s;iy 
that  lie  understands  fully  the  statute  law  of  liis  own  country. 
5*^  and  the  difticiilty  is  increased  when  one  lias  to  deal  with  the 
statute  law  of  anotlier  country.  I.  for  one,  should  feel 
very  ditTident  in  <-ominn  to  a  conclusion  with  re}j;ard  to 
the  statute  law  of  the  Tnited  States,  esjx'cially.  unless  I  have 
an  opportunity  of  liearin>i  coun.sel  discuss  the  nialter.  There 
iiiifflit  be  laws  that  I  may  know  nothinfr  about,  and  I  would 
not  take  judicial  notice  of  them  because  I  could  not  be  suj»- 
posed  to  have  knowledff*'  <>f  them.  Therefoic.  it  would  lie 
advantageous,  if  there  should  be  .some  way  of  brinsjiu'.;  such 
statutes  as  are  claimed  to  have  j>ertinence,  before  the  attt-n- 
tion  of  the  Coiivl,  at  a  time  when  we  would  have  the  advant- 
iijje  of  hearinji  the  observations  of  counsel  iipim  them.  Other- 
wise. I  for  one.  would  feel  entirely  at  sea  uii(m  the  nialter. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Wo  are  at  sea  ourselves  very  larir  Iv  as  lo 
llie  meaning  of  the  I'nited  States  statutes,  your  Honour.  I 
tliink  it  was  Lord  Mansfield  who  said-  Ood  forbid  he 
should  not  know  the  < "oninuni  L.iw.  and  tiod  forbid  he  sliouM 
know  the  statute  law  of  Kngland." 


60 


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(('    K.   Hii.viKtr— Uci'hIUmI— Diifct.) 

Th«>  ('oniiiiiHNioiu-i-  on  the  piiit  of  (In-  I'liitcd  StaU's— h  Im 
n«>f  nt'ccHHiirv  Unit  tlic.v  Hhoiihl  lit'  provt'd  iih  thi'  Hliituti-H  jiidI 
luwB  of  fort'iftn  roiintrifH  iiro  pr(»vi'<l  in  nn  ordiniii-.v  ronrt. 

Mr.  DifkinHon: — In  llim  vitv  Htatulf  tliat  Mr.  Havai-d  Kcnda 
to  Her  MajeHt.v'H  anibaHHador  it  appcarH  tliat  tli«>  jndiciar^v  of 
.■\la8l<n  had  not  Immmi  orpinixt-d — tiiJM  very  conrt  tlisit  Von 
deinncd  tlie  "(."arolt'na." 

The  C'oniiniHioner  on  tlie  part  of  tlie  I'nited  HtateH: — Put  it 
in  8oine  regular  form  ho  tliat  it  can  go  upon  tlie  record. 

Mr.  Peters: — Mr.  I>i(-l<in8on  and  I  can  ta1i{  tlie  matter  o»«r 
and  put  it  in  shape. 

The  ('OmmiMsioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — Wo 
are  agreed  to  leave  it  to  eoiiusei  to  settle  the  matter  amongst 
themselves  and  to  let  us  know  in  what  shape  it  shall  go  npo  1 
the  record. 

Mr.  Dickinson; — In  connection  with  the  statutes  that  an' 
put  in,  and  that  (-orrespondeiice,  I  desire  to  call  attention  l»y 
reference  to  voiiinie  five  of  the  case  of  (treat  Uritain,  at 
pages  4t!  and  17.  to  show  a  knowledge  on  the  jcirt  of  llcr 
Majesty's  (lovi'i-nment  of  the  judicial  constructitm  of  the 
laws  of  the  I'uited  States  with  reference  to  the  waters  of 
Behring  Sea  in  the  otlier  cases,  and  notably  in  the  'Taroleiiu" 
ease,  which  is  specially  ref«>rred  to  in  this  correspondence. 
The  judicial  <'oiistructi(ni  of  the  federal  statutes  by  the 
Courts  of  Alaska,  and  the  I'nited  States  was:  "Thct  the 
United  States  had  jurisdiction  over  the  waters  of  itehring 
Sea." 

Sir  (!.  H.  Tapper: — That  is  a  report  of  a  committee  of  the 
Privy  Council  of  November  the  27th,  lH8fi. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — That  is  it. 

Sir  C.  H.  Tupper: — You  refer  to  the  whole  of  that  leport. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Yes,  to  the  report  of  the  committee  of  xV.'^ 
Privy  Council. 

The  Commissioners  then  took  a  recess. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  desire  to  recall,  if  the  Commissioneis 
please,  Captain  Raynor.  with  reference  to  a  (jnestion  which 
has  been  omitted  as  to  his  catch  in  the  Hehring  Sea. 


50 


Capt.  Rayner: — A   witness  already  examined  on  the 
of  the  United  States,  was  recalled. 

Examined  by  Mr.  >VaiTen. 


60 


part 


Q. — Capt.  Raynor.  witliout  detailing  the  vessels  or  the  par- 
ticular seasons,  just  tel'  'he  Commissioners  how  many  years 
you  have  hunted  in  Itehring  Sea?  A. — Three  years  ii;  Heli- 
ring  Sea. 

Q. — I  believe  that  you  stated  that  you  were  first  there 
in  the  year  1S8(>?  A.— It  was  in  IH«1.'  I  believe  1  ^aid  vcs- 
terday  that  it  was  lS8t»  but  it  should  be  in  IS81. 

Q. — What  years  were  you  in  there;  did  you  mean  three 
years  outside  of  1881,  or  was  1881  included?  A. — I  mi>an 
three  vears  hunting  in  there  exclusivelv  for  seals;  that  was 
1886. 

Q. — What  part  of  the  Sea  did  you  hunt  in  in  these  various 
years?      A. — No  particular  part;  any  where  I  found  seals. 

Q. — Did  you  ^ro  sometimes  to  tile  westward  of  the  Pribyloff 
Islands?  A. — Yes,  some  times  to  the  westwird  and  some 
times  to  the  eastward. 


10 


5»5 

(<'.  K.  K.i.viior— Ucnillcd— IMrt'tt.) 

(i.— T«»  tin*  noitli?  A.— No,  (lie  uoitluMiut  t-nd  not  tlu- 
iiortli  t'XHftl.v. 

Q. — And  to  the  Hoiidi?      A. — Yi-t' 

Q. — From  your  «'X|»fri»'iu»'  in  the  Hen  will  .vou  Mlnte  wiu'th- 
IT  ,von  did  rtnd.  in  !MK71S!sH.  tluit  tin-  hciiIk  were  to  Ix*  found 
in  th"  mini*'  piticc  that  ,voii  had  found  them  in  1N84>?  A. — 
No,  sii';  th»'.v  wert'  not;  I  ncvn-  found  8u»c»'8Kiv»'  yvum  that  I 
t'ountl   HcalH   in   tlx*   Hani«>   plar**. 

(J. —  In  looking  foi-  Hi-alH  out  tli<>i(>  you  liav**  to  takt'  your 
x'HHcl  around  vaiiour*  partH  of  tlu*  (mmi  to  roinc  acroHH  a  ImuwIi 
of  Bt-alH?       A. — Y«'H. 


20 


^O 


40 


60 


liffdH, 
not  ? 


do  you?      Tlu'V  arc 


A. — MoHtly;  I  found 


Q. — You  do  not  hunt  wals  in 
found  in  Huiall  lumt-hrH  arc  they 
llu'Ui  by  two  or  throe  at  a  time. 

Q. — Then'  In  no  nurii  thin);  at*  running  a<-ro8H  tlioUHandH  of 
Ht'alM  and  ttein};  al)U>  to  kill  any  number  of  them  in  a  Hhort 
time?       A. — \o.  Hir,  I  never  ftnind  it  ho. 

Q. — Seals  are  liutited  Individually  more  than  t'ollectlvely. 
are  they  not?      A. — ^'eH,  Mir. 

Q. — And  they  are  found  in  buneheH  of  two  and  three  and 
of  l)uneli(>H  of  ten  and  eleven  together?  A. — Scmietimes  you 
Hee  them  in  large  buneheH. 

(i. — Hut  they  are  generally  awake  and  you  cannot  get  to 
thcni.  They  have  what  we  call  lookoutH  and  are  on  the 
guard  when  in  lierdN. 

Q. — When  seals  arc  awake  it  is  harder  to  approach  tliera 
and  of  courfc  harder  to  kill  them?     A.--Yes,  sir. 

Q. — The  iimjorlty  of  Hcaln  are  nliot  when  they  arc  asleep, 
arc  they?     A. — Yes.  Hir. 

Q. — Now.  to  enter  into  the  matter  of  taking  seals,  what 
arc  the  conditions  which  would  modify  the  number  which 
can  be  killed?  A.— Well,  the  state  of  the  weather.  If  it  is 
raining  or  stnmg  winds  or  anything  of  that  kind,  the  seals 
do  not  sleei>  very  w«'ll.  And  in  a  strong  brwze  of  wind  you 
cannot  get  on  to  them. 

(.1. — Do  they  scent  you?  A. — !f  you  get  to  the  windward 
of  a  seal  they  scent  you  at  n  long  distance. 

Q. — For  that  reason  it  is  better  to  approach  the  seals  from 
the  lee  side?  A. — Yes.  from  the  leeward  when  the  wind  is 
blowing  fiiun  the  seal  to  the  hunter. 

Q. — What  other  condition  modities  the  result  when  seal 
hunting?  A. — Well,  a  great  deal  depends  on  how  the  hunt- 
er decides  to  get  at  the  seal. 

(■i. — Does  the  exiM'Hence  <tf  a  master  have  anything  to  do 
with  it?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Exi)lain   to  the  ('(uumissioners   why   that  enters  into 

the  moditication  of  the  ivsult  in  seal  calching?     A. — Well, 

50  lilt'  master  has  to  do  with  looking  the  seals  uj),  and  after  he 

sees  them,   ktH'jting  his  vessel   in   ]iosition  and  sending  the 

boats  in  a  certain  dirccticm  and  so  on. 

(i. — Has  the  nuitter  of  handing  a  crew  and  selecting  a 
crew  anything  to  do  witli  it?  A. — Yes,  sir,  it  liaa  a  great 
deal  to  do  with  it  whether  you  get  a  good  crew  or  a  bad  crew. 

(i. — Captain  Ogilvie  had  never  been  in  tlie  wa  before  as 
far  as  you  know?  A. — As  far  as  I  know  he  had  never  bet>n 
ill  tlie  Behring  Sea  l»ef«)re. 

Q. — Sealing?  A. — Nor  never  did  any  st>iiling  there  as  far 
as  I  know. 

(i. — The  (|uestion  as  lo  wlietlier  or  not  there  are  several 
vessels  in  a  good  locality,  has  that  anything  to  do  with  the 
result.'  A. — Yes.  sir.  of  course,  the  more  boats  there  are 
around  either  with  shooting  or  with  siH'urs,  it  wakes  the  seals 
and  keeps  them  moving  and  .>ou  would  not  get  as  many  as 
if  you  were  alone. 

Q. — A  seal  can  travel  faster  than  a  man  i«Mild  row  in  a 
lioat  or  that  a  canoe  could  paddle?     A. — Yes,  sir, 


« 


II 

s  1 

lis 

iim. 


m^ 


!ff',  |i;'V|l!|)!^ 


:i,li: 


■mv 


10 


3« 


r.  K.  IJavn.or— Hf'iitlhMl— I'iiccl— rioss.) 

(i. — Aiv  i'vi'ii  fNtcr  tliiiii  an  ordiiiiirv  vcshcI  witli  iiii  onliii- 
arv  wind  could  ti'av«'l  after  tlit-m?     A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — And  thcv  ((uild  Ivct'i*  ui>  lliat  rapidity  of  niovciucnt  for 
such  a  lonj;  tiuic  as  to  <'sca|)('  llu-ir  piirsucrs,  could  tlii'v  not? 
A. — Yes.  Hir. 

il. — Have  you  observed  wlial  the  seals  feed  upiui?  A. — 
Y'es.  sir,  they  feed  most  upon  tish  and  stpiids  and  shi-inips  in 
different  localities. 

Q. — These  tish  travel  fioni  one  part  of  the  sea  to  the  other 
in  the  same  season?  A.— No,  sir,  the  tish  shifts  and  also  the 
seals  shift  with  them. 

Q. — That  is  what  1  asked  you.  I  asked  if  they  travel  after 
the  fish?     A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Froi!i  your  exjierience  of  your  three  years  in  I  he 
Behrius;  Sea  do  you  think  that  you  would  l>e  able  to  esti 
mate  the  number  of  skins  that  a  vessel  would  take  in  tfie 
year  IH.h"  ^oinj;  in'to  Itehrinj;  Sea? 

20  Mr.  Modwell: — That  <|ueslion,  was.  I  think,  ruled  otit  be 
fore.  I  think  I  put  a  similar  (|U(-ston  to  one  of  oui'  witness(>s 
and  after  some  considei-ation  it  was  ruled  out. 

Mr.  ^^■arrlIl: — I  aslcd  tiiis  (|ui'sti<ui:  Froin  the  experience 
of  your  thre(>  years  in  Itehrin^;  Sea,  do  you  think  you  would 
be  able  to  estimate  the  number  of  skins  that  a  vessel  woiild 
take  in  the  year  ISS"  goinji  into  the  Hehrinp;  Sea,  and  carry- 
injr  a  fair  number  of  boats?     \. — No.  sir,  1  do  not. 

t'ross-examination  by   .Mi-.   Hodwell: 

Q. — You  were  out  in  the  nehriufj;  Sea  in  \HHii  for  the  tirst 
tinu'?  .\. — For  the  first  time  sealinji.  that  is  for  the  first 
time  sealinji  direct. 

l^. — Ft  was  the  tirst  time  you  went  into  tlie  Itehrin^;  Sea 
wasn't  it?     A. — No,  sir. 

Q, — The  first  time  you  went  into  Hehrin^  Sea  sealinji?  A. 
— I  went  in  there  sealing;  liefore.  but  not  sealin;;  altopether. 
I  had  iM'en  in,  sealing  and  oitei-  hunting:  before. 

li.— When?     A.— In   1SS1,  ISSL'  and   1SS:{. 

H. — In   what  schooner?     .\. — In  the  "Otter.'" 

ti. — You  went  there  si'aliu}:?  .\. — Yes.  sir.  otter  huntiii}; 
and  seals. 

H. — IMd  yi>u  ffet  many  seals?     .\. — No,  sir,  we  did  not. 

(I. — Your  |U'!nci])al  liusiness  was  otter  huntiii;;?  .\. — Yes, 
sir,  for  a  part  of  the  time. 

Q. — You  onl,\"  took  seals  l)ecause  you  iiappened  to  run 
across  them?  .\. —  No.  sir.  we  iinnled  seals  foi  about  six 
weeks,  and  made  it  a   busiiu'ss. 

Q. — Were  you  captain  of  tiie  vessel?  .\. — No.  sir,  1  was 
sailing:  master,     t'aptain  Littlejohn  was  the  captain. 

ii. — \\'here  did  you  tin  in  ISSti.  what  part  of  the  sea?  .\. 
— Well,  I  was  in  \aiious  places. 

Q. — Where  did  you  ^d  (irst?  .\. — Tiie  first  tinu-  I  went 
to  Tniinak  Pass,  and  northeast   to  the  St.  Paul  Islands. 

(2. —  How  far?  .\. —  I  was  alioul  tweutyf(mr  miles  off  tiic 
islands. 

(.y — Had  you   been   there  for  seals  before?     .\. — Yes.  sir. 

ii. — Hid  you  find  them?     .\. — Yes.  sir.  I  did. 

(i.— Hid  you  find  liiem  in   ISStl?     .\.— \<'rv  few. 

(.y — Hid  you  tind  .seal  wiicre  umi  found  them  liefore?  .\. 
— Some. 

H. — That  was  tiie  first  position,  and  now  wiiere  was  your 
second  position?  .V. —  Wi-li.  I  went  all  over  the  {{round  be 
tween  the  I'ribylolf  and    Aleutian    Islands. 

iy — Within  what  distance  east  and  west,  witliih  what  de 
•irees  of  liiiijjitiidc?  .\.~l  ically  cannot  tell  tiie  d<'frr''i'x  •'f 
lonitifiide 


40 


!!o 


Co 


10 


20 


30 


40 


(('    K.  IJiiyiKir — Hci'iilU-d — ("kims.) 

y. — Did  ^vou  k«'ep  u  log?     A. — Xo,  sir.  I  did  not  Iteep  a  log. 
y. — You  weiv  luastiT  of  the  veHHcl?    A. — V»'8.  .sir. 
Q. — Cau  you  givo  us  an  idea,  suppose  you  drew  a  strainhf 
line  down  from  tiie  I'ribvIotT  Islands  to  tlic  Aleutian  Islands 
I  understand  .you  to  say  that  your  tirst  ])osition  was  longitude 
175  and  latitude  57?     A. — Yes,  near  to  Bogoslot!'. 
Q. — Then  you  went  south,  did  you?      A. — Yes. 
Q. — Did  jou  go  any  further  east  than  ITl?      A. — Xo.  sir.  I 
do  not  think  I  did. 
Q. — But  you  W(>nt  south  belo.v  54  did  you?      A. — Xo. 
Q. — Above  54?      A. — Yes,  above  54. 

Q. — Then  how  far  west  did  you  go,  did  you  go  to  I'm?      .\. 
— I  went  as  far  as  Rogosloflf. 

Q. — Here  is  Ilogosloff,  latitude  l(W,  that  is  as  far  west  as 
you  went?      A. — Yes. 

y. — Between  these  pctints  was  where  vou  hunted  \v  IS.'^il? 
.\.— Yes. 

Q. — Did  you  find  seals?  A. — I  found  scatteriur.;  seals  all 
the  way  over. 

Q. — I)id  you  make  much  of  a  tatch?  A. — I  did  not  make 
any  big  oateh. 

Q. — When  were  you  seized?  .\. — 1  was  seized.  I  believe, 
(in  the  28th  of  July. 

Q. — You   know,  captain,   from  your  experience  that    very 
few  seals  are  taken  as  a  rule  before  that  date  in   Behring 
Sea?      .\. — Well.  I  have  not  found  it  so  in  my  own  exiierience. 
il. — You   have  been  there  twice  since  that   date?       A. — 
Yes,  sir. 
Q.— In  what  years.'      A.— In  1SS7  and  ISSH. 
iy — How  many  seals  <li(l  you  get  Itefore  the  2Sth  of  .luly  in 
1SS7?      A. — I  would  not  l>e  able  to  tell  you. 

Q. — I  am  not  asking  you  exactly.  1  do  not  want  to  bind 
you  to  one  seal,  oi-  within  20  or  even  50.  A. — Well,  I  do  not 
kn«)W  as  I  can  say  within  a  liundred  or  two,  I  believe  I 
caught  somewhen-  between  H(H)  and  !)(K». 

(i.— Will  you  swear  y()u  caught  SOO  befon'  the  2Hth  of 
•luly?      A.— I  wmild  not  swfar  to  the  exact  ntimlu'r. 

Q.— Will  you  swear  you  caught  in  the  neighborlTood  of  H(M» 
before  the  28th  of  Jiily?      A.— Yes.  sir. 
Q.— With  how  many  boats?      A.— Six  boats. 
Q._How  nmny  did  you  gi't  altogether  in  the  season? 
—I  do  not  rememlM'r  exactly. 

Q._You  were  seized  in  1887,  were  yon?      ,\.— Yes,  sir 
was  seized. 


\. 


■io 


Mr. 

1887. 

By 
Q. 


Warren:— He  was  seized  on  the  25th  of  August,  in 


60 


Mr.  Bodwell: 

-But  before  the  2.8th  «>f  July  you  had  taken  8(t(>  seals? 
A.— I  had  taken  somewhere  about  that. 

(j._\Vhere  did  you  get  them?  .\.— I  caught  them  very 
much  on  the  same  ground  all  around  out  there. 

Q.— Just  about  the  same  ground  as  you  caught  them  in 
18S(J?    A.— Yes. 

Q— How  many  did  yt»u  get  »)etween  the  2Slh  of  July  and 
tlie  25th  of  August  wluMi  you  were  seized?  .V.— I  believe  I 
hal  altogether,  when  I  was  seized,  something  over  l,(iOO,  but 
I  am  not  positive  how  nmny  it  was. 

il.—U\  what  locality  did  you  get  that  additional  number  of 
.se.ils  in  the  month  »'»f  August?  A.— Well,  I  got  tlu'ui  in 
about  the  same  grouitd. 

Q.— You  caught  them  al)ou<  the  same  ground?      A.— Yes. 

Q.— You  kept  working  around  in  about  the  same  ground? 
.\. — Yes.   sii'. 


4«!»'l 


illii 


iiiiJi 


m 


■i 


lir^:i.i 


n 


'4<u 


in 


10 


30 


528 

(r.  E.  Uii.vnor — Ki'iallod— Cross.) 

Q. — Now,  you  were  out  in  1888,  were  you?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — On  wliat  ship  were  you?      A. — On  tlie  "Alger." 

Q. — And  you  liad  liow  many  boats?      A. — I  had  six  boats. 

(J. — What  time  did  you  go  into  the  Hea  tluit  year?  A. — 
I  did  not  go  into  tlie  8ea  in  1S8S. 

Q. — You  wer<'  not  in  tlie  Sea  in  1888?  A. — No,  sir,  I  was 
in  the  Sea  in  1889. 

Q. — Tell  me  the  first  day  you  lowered  your  boats  in  thr 
year  1887?      A.— I  eannot  tell. 

Q. — Was  it  not  about  the  middle  of  the  month  of  July?  A. 
I  think  it  was  somewhere  about  the  0th  or  7th  of  July. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  whether  or  not  you  got  many  seals 
at  the  beginning  of  the  lowering  in  July?  A. — No,  sir,  I 
think  they  were  very  scarce.  I  do  not  know,  but  1  got  very 
few. 

Q. — You  got  very  few  at  the  start  and  towards  the  »-i.d  of 
July  you  began  to  get  a  greater  nimiber  of  seals  and  by  i\w 
20  28th  of  July  you  got  800?      A. — Somewhere  about  that. 

Q. — What  other  year  were  you  in  the  Sea?  A. — I  was  in 
the  Sea  in  1889. 

Q. — On  what  ship?      A. — On  the  "Janu's  Hamilton  Lewis." 

Q. — How  many  boats  did  you  have?      A. — I  had  six  boats, 

Q. — What  time  did  you  begin  sealing?  A. — Somewhere 
along  the  first  of  July,  I  cannot  say  exactly. 

Q. — We  will  try  and  get  it  out  in  this  way.  About  when 
did  you  begin  to  get  them  in  numbers?  A. — Well,  I  never 
got  any  great  number  in  the  "Hamilton  Lewis,"  as  a  matter 
of  fact  I  was  only  there  a  little  while  before  I  was  ordered 
out  and  I  came  home  home. 

i). — When  were  you  ordered  out,  can  you  tell?  A. — I  can- 
not say  exactlv,  but  sctmewhere  about  the  15th  or  20th  of 
July. 

Q. — Where  were  you  when  you  were  ordered  out?  A. — I 
was  somewhere  about  this  jtosition. 

Q. — That  would  be  170  west  longitude  and  55  north  lati- 
tude?    A. — Some  where  about  that. 

Q. — Did  you  find  seal  there?    A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — You  were  asked  for  your  position  and  you  have  given 
it.  Were  you  not  up  to  the  east  of  the  islands?  A. — I  was 
looking  for  seals. 

Q. — W«'re  you  n(>t  making  a  north  and  easterly  point  from 
that  p(»int?  A. — No,  sir,  I  was  laving  to,  looking  for  seals 
there. 

Q. — How  long  had  you  been  laying  to?  A. — I  think  1 
had  been  there  three  days.      The  weather  was  foggy. 

Q. — You  exjMMted  that  the  seals  would  leave  the  islands 
and  start  south  somewhere  about  the  lOtli  of  July?  A. — No, 
5'^  sir,  I  did  not  exjK'ct  anything  of  Ihe  kind. 

i}. — What  were  you  in  that  jiosition  for?  A. — I  was  then- 
to  look  for  seals  iK'cause  that  is  the  sealing  ground  all  over 
there. 

Q. — Of  course,  and  you  went  where  you  knew  the  sealing 
ground  woubl  be?     A. — Why.  cerlainly. 

Q. — So  that  liie  sealing  giound  is  confined  to  certain  limits? 
A. — Yes,  but  them'liiiiits  is  anywheres  frcun  the  northeast  of 
the  islands  up  to  the  northwest  of  the  islands,  and  to  tlie 
southward  <lown  towards  the  Pribylolf. 

Q. — The  .Meiitiaii  Islands,  you  mean?     A. — Yes. 

(i. — How  far  is  it  from  the  .Meutian  Islands  to  the  first 
point  of  SI.  (Jeorge's  Island  in  a  straight  line?  A. — I  could 
not  tell  without   I  had  the  instrument  and  worked  it  out. 

(i. — Von  have  been  there  three  or  f(Mir  years,  and  siirelv 
yon  can  tell  about  the  distances?  I  do  not  ask  you  as  to  ti 
mile  or  twenty  niih's,  for  that  matter?  .\.— 1  think  the  dis- 
tance is  soniewiieic  about  tliiee  hundred  miles. 


40 


Go 


10 


529 

(C.  E.  Raynor— ReL-allfd.       E.  V.  Miner— Direct.) 

y. — From  tlie  Aleutian  Islands  to  the  tirst  point  of  St. 
Oeorge'H  Island?    A. — I  think  somewhere  about  that. 

y. — Don't  you  know  it  is  onl.v  170  miles?    A. — I  do  not. 

(i. — Would  you  be  surprised  to  be  told  that?  A. — I  would 
not  be  surprised. 

(i. — Did  you  ever  work  it  out  on  your  chart?  A. — I  cannot 
siiy  that  I  ever  did  measure  tlie  distance;. 

Q. — Captain,  you  do  not  want  to  jjive  us  the  impression, 
you  beinjj  a  seafaring;  man  and  the  master  of  a  vessel,  that 
you  cannot  come  any  closer  to  the  distance  than  that  in  a 
]»lace  where  you  have  been  sealiufj  for  three  years?  A. — 
I  mean  that  I  do  not  know  the  distance  from  the  Aleutian 
Islands  to  St.  (jleorye's  Island,  and  that  I  have  stated. 

(2. — You  cannot  tell  us  within  a  hundred  miles?  A. — I 
roul''.  not  state  without  meastirinfj. 

<^— Did  you  ever  go  to  Hehinntj  Sea  in  any  year  looking 
foi  .^eals  that  y(»u  did  not  tind  them?  A. — Do  you  mcnin  if 
^0  I  evr  went  lookiujj;  for  them  any  one  day  that  I  did  not  find 
I 'cm" 

ii. — That  is  not  the  (juestion  that  I  asktnl  you,  and  I  do 
not  think  that  you  can  understand  it  that  way.  I  ask  you  if 
y(  u  went  to  Helirin};  Sea  any  year  that  you  did  not  find 
ilicm?     A. — No,  sir,  I  always  found  some  seals. 

Q. — The  "Alfrer"'  was  the  smallest  catch  you  made?  . — 
No,  sir,  I  think  it  was  the  largest  catch  I  ever  made  in 
Ik'h'ing  Sea. 

30       He-direct  examination  by  Mr.  Warren: 

i-i. — At  that  time  when  you  w«'re  seized  it  was  after  the 
season  was  over?     A. — Y<'s.  sir. 

Q. — And  you  had  made  ready  to  go  before  the  seizure?  A. 
— Yes,  sir,  I  had  made  ready  to  go  out  of  the  Sea  the  day 
before. 


The  exainiimtion  of  the  witness  closed. 


'|0 


Edward  P.  Miner  was  called  as  a  witness  on  behalf  of  the 
liiited  States  and  duly  swoi'u. 

Direct  e.\amination  by  Mr.  Dickinson. 

Q. — Where  do  you  live.  Captain  Miner?  A. — In  Seattle, 
Washington. 

(I. — Where  were  you  born?  .\. —  In  San(a  ISarbara,  Cali- 
co fornia. 

*.i. — You  are  a  native  Californian?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

<i. — When  were  you  born?     .\. — In  1854. 

ii. — Vou  have  ft>llowed  the  sea  since  you  came  to  man's  es- 
liite?    A.— Since  1S7."). 

(i.— Out  of  what  ports?    Out    of   the    ports   of   San  Fran- 

I  is(  1,  Yokohama,  Victoria  and  Seattle. 

ii — In  what  c^ijtacity  did  ytm  sail  in  1S7,T?  A. — As  a  hun 
iir  (III  board  an  otter  schooner  on  the  Caiifornian  coast. 

(i.— And  in  lS7(i?  A  — IS7(!  I  omitted;  I  did  not  go  to  sea 
60  in   |s7»i. 

ti. — IMd  you  go  to  sea  the  next  year?     .\. — Yes,  sir. 

(i. — Is  there  any  year  that  vou  ouiitlcd  from  that  time 
ilowii   to  IS't.f)?     A.— No,  sir. 

Q. — When  did  vou  go  as  master  for  the  tlrst  time?    .\. — In 

INS.-,. 

'i.  — Ill  what?     .V. — In  the  Itiitish     schooner     "renelope," 

II  ;;is(eretl  at  Shanghai. 

Q. — And  built  in  Japan?      \. — Yes,  built  in  Yokoliama. 

;}4 


ill 


r  ft  '  ; 

m 


mw 


jj'- 


''\hv» 


lO 


20 


(K.  I'.  Miner— l>iici-l.) 

(i.— And  during  all  tlu'sc  .vt'tus,  from  1875.  with  the  exH'j) 
lion  of  1H7(>,  down  to  IS!)')  wlu'iv  havo  you  hunted?  A.— On 
the  ooiist  of  <"tiliforniii,  otter  hunting  until  1880,  and  1  tlien 
came  north  and  went  to  tlu'  Kurile  Islands. 

Q. — Where  are  Ihey?  A. — On  the  northern  part  of  Japan, 
helonging  to  the  .lajtanese  Empire,  and  reaehinp  from  Kani 
atehato  to  the  Islands  of  Yedo. 

Q. — .\nd  where  else?  A. — AfterwardH  I  went  to  Ban 
Franeisco.  and  the  next  voyage  I  was  up  the  coast  sealing  in 
the  Itehring  Hea.  through  to  the  Aleutian  eoast,  down  to 
Oktch  Sea.  and  then  to  Yokohama. 

Q.— What  year  was  that?      A.— That  was  in  1881. 
(J. — That   was  purely  as  a  sealing  voyage?       A. — Sealing 
and  hunting. 

Q. — What  were  you  sailing  in  that  year?  A. — The  ''Anas 
tasia  (.'asliman." 

Q. — In  1H81  did  you  go  sealing?  A. — Yes,  sir,  1  went  seal- 
ing and  otter  liiinting  tt)  Kurile  islands. 

Q. — Did  vou  enter  iSehring  Sea  going  or  coming?  A. — 
Not  until  1880. 

(2. — When  did  you  enter  the  Mehring  Sea?  A. — I  brought 
the  "renelope"  from  Yokohama  to  Victoria  at  the  end  of  the 
otter  hunting  voyage  and  came  through  the  Behring  Sea  late 
in  the  season. 

Q. — In  188(»?  A. — Yes.  sir,  the  weather  did  not  permit 
of  any  hunting  and  we  came  right  on. 

Q. — What  class  of  vessels  were  you  accustomed  to  from 
1875;  were  they  merchantmen  or  hunters  and  flshers?  A. — 
I  have  never  been  on  a  merchantman,  but  always  im  fishing 
and  hunting  vessels. 

Q. — .Mways  the  same  rlass  of  vessels  as  went  into  Hehring 
Sea?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

ii. — You  have  been  familiar  with  them  all  your  life?  A. 
— Yes,  since  187.". 

(i.— I>o  you  know  whether  in  1880  or  in  1887  there  were  in 
the  city  of  San  Francisco,  or  al)out  the  city,  shipyards  of 
large  iliniensions?  A. — Yes,  sir,  1  know  several  build'Ts 
there. 

Q.— Were  thes(>  yards  adapted  to  the  building  and  outfit 
ting   of   these   sealers   and   hunters?       A. — There   was   none 
llial   I  know  of  exclusively,  but  there  was  ('.  O.  AVhite  and 
Afalthew  Turner  and  I5en  Mixon.  who  all  built  vessels  of  tliat 
class. 

Q. — They  built  these  vessels  and  were  fully  enuippeil  to 
turn  them  out?  .\. — Yes.  sir,  fully  ecjuipped  and  they  fain 
ed  out  a  great  'uany. 

ij. — Do  you  know  of  any  other  ship  yards  on  the  Pacific 
50   <"oast  where  this  class  of  vessels  were  turned  out  in  1.880  and 


30 


40 


I8S7 


.\. — \(».  I  <lo  not. 


60 


Q. — You  knew  the  lieet  in  these  years  pretty  well?  .\. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  the  class  of  vessels?  A. — I  knew  every  (Mie  tliat 
was  in  the  business. 

Q. — You  knew  them  by  sight  when  you  saw  them  at  sea  or 
in  poit;  you  wt-re  then  intimately  actjuainted  with  the  busi 
ness?       .\. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Now.  of  the  sealing  vessels  engaged  in  the  business  in 
IJeliring  Sea  and  on  the  Pacific  Coast  and  going  to  .Tajtaii, 
will  you  pleasi'  stale  where  the  majority  came  fr<Mn  and 
wliere  built?       .\. — in  the  present  day? 

Q.-  No,  I  am  referring  to  188tJ  and  1887?  .\.— Why,  in 
San  Francisco. 

Q. — That  was  llie  great  oiiliiiit  for  this  class  of  ships?  A. 
— Yes.  sir. 


A. — Tho.v  wpre  about  80 
There  was  not  much  dif 

A. — One  waH  originally 


53« 

(K.  P.  Miner— Direct.) 

Q.— And  the  inark»;t  for  ships  on  the  Taciflc  Coast  was 
largely  ttxed  by  the  price  at  San  Francisco?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q.— You  were  here  iu  the  "Penelope"  in  188C?  A.— In  the 
fall  of  188«. 

y.— They  had  no  ship  yards  in  Victoria  for  the  building  of 
this  class  of  ships?      A.— There  were  two  ways  for  hauling 
up  vessels  here. 
10       Q. — Rut  not  fhip  yards?     A. — I  saw  none. 

Q.— Did  you  have  any  at  Seattle?  A.— We  had  none  at 
Seattle. 

Q. — Nor  any  where  else  on  the  Pacific  f'oast  between  Vic- 
toria aiul  San  Francisco?  A. — There  was  Hall  Brothers  at 
Port  Hlakeley,  but  they  built  mostly  lumber  carrying  vessels. 

Q. — They  did  not  build  sealers?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Otter  hunting  and  st'aling  has  been  a  great  trade  on 
the  Pacific  Coast  since  you  came  to  man's  estate?  A. — Yes, 
sir,  it  has  been  growing  since  I  first  joined  it. 
20  Q. — Could  yon  give  me  the  names  of  what  are  called  seal- 
ing vessels  now  that  were  on  this  coast  in  the  years  188G  and 
1SS7?      A. — It  would  take  me  quite  a  while  to  think  of  all. 

Q. — I  understand  that,  but  I  want  yoe.  to  give  us  your 
best  memory  and  then  I  will  see  if  I  can  refresh  it?  \. — I 
cannot  remember  just  the  years  the  different  vessels  came 
out.  There  were  two  vessels  the  "C.  G.  White"  and  the 
"C.  H.  White,"  of  San  Francisco. 

Q. — What  about  their  tonnage? 
tons  each,  if  I  remember  rightly. 
30  fcrence  between  them. 

Q. — What  was  their  businj'ss? 
built  for  a  pilot  boat  and  afterwards  went  otter  hunting  and 
sealing,  and  the  "C.  II.  White"  was  built  expressely  for  ot- 
ter hunting  and  sealing 

Q. — Were  they  in  (he  water  and  out  from  the  stocks  in 
1S8(>?  A. — I  cannot  say  as  to  whether  they  were  out  in 
18S«.  The  "C.  G.  White  was  built  at  that  time,  but  whether 
tlii'  "C.  II.  White"  was  built  before  1887  I  cannot  say.  It 
was  surely  1888  if  nor  1887. 

Q. — Can  you  state  any  others  tluit  you  knew  of.  fixing  the 
time  by  your  experience  here  in  1880.  up  to  that  time?      A. 
— There  was  the  schooner  ".\nnie,"  the  "San  Diego."  the 
ter,"  the  "Theresa,"    and    the  "Alexander"     and    the 
Jose." 

Q. — Do  you  remember  tiie  "City  of  San  Diego"  then? 
— Yes.  sir. 

Q. — And  the  "Sierra?"       A. — Yes.  sir. 

t). — She  was  of  the  same  period?      A, — Yes.  sir. 

(j._r)id  you  name  the  "Vanderbilt?"  A.— I  knew  her  but 
did  not  name  her. 

Q.— And  the  "Lillie  L?"      A.— Yes. 

Q. — And  the  'Pearl?"       A. —  I  did  not  remember  her. 

Q. — And  the  "Sylvia  Handy?"  A. — I  knew  her  well;  yes. 
sir.  I  recall  the  "Pearl"  now.  I  do  remember  the  "Pearl" 
as  belonging  to  the  .Maska  Commercial  Compiiny. 

Q. — She  was  a  sealer  and  built  in  San  Francisco?  A. — 
Yes,  by  Turner. 

Q.— The  "Angel  Dolly?"       A.— Yes,  sir. 
f)0      (}, — The  "Laura,"  do  you  remember  her?      .\. — Yes,  sir. 

H. — She  was  a  small  vessel,  of  about  how  many  tons?  .\. 
.\bo)it  twenty  tons. 

Q.— Do  you  remember  the  "Golden  Fleece?"  .\.— No.  sir; 
I  do  not. 

(i.-^Do  you  remember  the  "Rose  Sparks? 
Sparks"  I  remenibtT  well. 

t^ — At  that  period?      .\, — Yes,  sir. 


40 


"Ol- 
'San 

A. 


5c 


A.— The  "Rose 


.'  4 


Hi 


¥: 


ill- 


p! 

IMS- 

'  .  1 1 

. 

;  .i\ 

» 

: 

■'i 

'J|»<IVM 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


332 

(K.  v.  Miiu'i'— Dim-t.) 


A.— 


50 


'CUark'H  .1.  Wilson?" 

A. — Yea,  Hir. 
was  built 


60 


Q. — Do  you  remiMiiber  tli« 
No,  sir.  I  don't  lomenibt'r  her. 

Q. — Do  you  rouieiiibcr  the  "Allie  I.  Alper?" 
sir. 

Q. — Was  she  a  8a u  Fraiu-iseo  vessel?      A. — She 
iu  Seattle. 

Q.— Do  yon  remember  the  'Helen  Blum?"  A.— The  "Hel- 
en Blum"  I  know  well. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  the  "Henrietta."  a  schooner  of  about 
40  tons?  A. — I  never  saw  her,  but  I  heard  a  jjreat  deal  of 
her. 

(J. — You  name  only  the  ships  you  knew  in  the  seas?  \. — 
Yes,  sir.  those  that  I  had  seen  and  was  familiar  with. 

Q. — Xow,  during  this  period  down  to  the  tlose  of  ISHli,  did 
you  know  all  Wie  fleet  in  these  waters?  \. — Yes,  I  think  so. 
Q. — .\mongst  these  sealers  and  hunters,  did  you  know  of 
any  ships  from  the  Atlantic  coast,  from  Xova  Scotia  or  Mas- 
sachusetts? \. — I  remember  when  the  first  one  came 
round  from  the  Atlantic  Coast. 

Q. — AVliat  was  she?  A. — The  nearest  I  could  tell  was  tlie 
"I'athflnder,"  coming  around  with  Tapt.  O'Leary. 

Q. — In  what  year?       .\. — T  think  site  came  first  in  here 
and  arrived  liere  tiie  same  vear  as  I  did. 
Q.— In  1880?      A.— Yes.  " 

Q. — Were  there  any  others  that  you  knew  in  the  whole 
fleet  up  to  the  dose  of  188fi?       A.— No,  sir. 

Q. — Was  she  also  known  by  another  name?  A. — She  is 
known  now  by  the  name  of  the  "Pioneer,"  I  believe. 

Q. — Now.  what  proportion  of  the  ships  engaged  in  sealing 
on  the  Pacific  Coast  have  as  their  i»ort  of  origin  San  Fran 
Cisco?  A.— At  that  time? 
Q.— Up  to  the  close  of  188fi?  A.— I  think  fully  two-thirds. 
Q. — Where  did  the  other  one-third  come  from?  A. — From 
Victoria,  mostly;  they  had  been  bought  at  dilTerent  places 
and  concentrated  at  Victoria 

Q. — What  do  you  mean  by  saying  that  tliey  came  from 
<»ther  plac(>s  and  concentrated  at  Victoria?  They  would 
come  up.  for  instance,  from  San  Francisco  and  re  register 
here?  A. — Yes.  sir,  they  were  built  on  the  California  coast. 
Q. — I  speak  of  thi'  jirojiortion  of  the  vessels,  whether  re- 
gistered at  another  port  or  not,  in  the  fleet  up  to  tlie  close 
of  the  year  188(5.  hi  these  years  were  most  of  that  class  of 
vessels  originally  built  in  San  Francisco?  A. — In  San  Fran 
cisco  iiiid  viciuily;  there  would  be  more  than  two-thirds. 

Q. — Would  you  put  it  at  nine  tenths?  Make  your  own 
projiortiou?  .\. — T  will  put  it  at  two-thirds  and  be  on  the 
safe  side. 

Q. — Now.  you  were  engaged  in  this  business  and  in  ana 
logons  business  away  back  in  187.')  and  in  188(5  and  up  to  18i»5. 
in  this  business  of  sealing  and  fishing  for  aeals,  when  tlu'ic 
was  a  dt'Uiand  for  a  vessel,  will  you  please  state  what,  to 
the  business,  was  known  as  the  port  at  which  the  valuation 
of  these  vessels  was  to  be  fixed.  A. — San  Fracisco  WiiH 
understood. 

(i. — .\nd  the  value  was  fixed  at  San  Francisco  because  of 
the  number  of  shipyards  there  and  th«'  une(|uallt>d  facilities 
for  building  the  ships?     A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — .\nd  because  of  that  the  value  was  fixed  at  San  Fran- 
cisco?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i.^Now.  you  have  had  to  do  with  the  outfitting  of  schoon 
f'rs?     A. — Y(s.  since  I  have  been  master. 
Q.— Since  what  dat<'?     A.— Since  188."). 
ii. — Was   there  any   dirt'erenc«'  in   the   form   of    the   outfit 
for  the  sealing  business  in  188(5,  or  would  the  outfit  be  aim- 


10 


20 


30 


40 


Go 


533 

(E.  P.  Miner— Din'ct.) 

ilar  for  otlwr  voshcIh  prior  to  \HHV>'!    A. — We  carried  about 
tlu>  name  qiinlity  of  {^oodH  and  the  winie  (|unntlt,v. 

y. — When  tliev  went  (Hit  liuntinK  walruseH.  did  th«'y  take 
Runs  and  nnununition?     A. — Only  ritleH  for  walruses. 

Q.— Did  they  take  boats?    A.— Yes.  sir. 

{}. — Siniihir  boats  to  those  used  in  sealing?  A. — They 
were  birger  boats,  but  similarly  constructed. 

Q. — Did  they  take  hunters?  A. — Yes.  a  hunter  for  eadi 
boat. 

Q.— Did  vou  ever  outtit  in  Victoria?    A.— Yes.  in  1SS7. 

Q.— What  ship?      A.— The  "Penelope." 

Q. — How  large  a  vessel?     A. — She  was  about  71  tons. 

(i. — How  many  men  did  she  <-arry?  A. — I  think  she  car- 
ried that  year  twenty-one  or  twenty-two  men. 

Q. — Including  the  captain  and  mate?    A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — How  nuuiy  boats?     A. — Five  boats  and  a  stera  boat. 

Q. — She  was  liilly  equipped  with  guns?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — And  a  slop  chest?    A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Was  there  any  difference  in  the  outfitting  at  Victoria 
and  the  outfitting  at  San  Francisco?  A. — 1  could  not  see 
hut  very  little  difference. 

Q. — I  mean  as  to  the  volume  and  not  as  to  the  cost?  A. — 
No.  sir. 

Q. — Now,  was  there  any  difference,  in  your  experience,  as 
to  the  cost  of  outfitting  at  Victoria  from  the  cost  <if  (uitfitting 
at  San  Francisco?  A. — Some  articles  I  found  cheaper  in  San 
Francisco  and  some  I  found  cheaper  in  Victoria. 

Q. — Can  you  name  that  class  of  articles?  A. — I  found  all 
these  canned  meats  higher  in  Victoria. 

Q. — And  what  did  yo<i  find  cheaper?  A. — I  thought  that 
1  got  potatoes  cheaper  here. 

Q. — And  vegetables?  A. — Yes.  several  little  things.  I 
thought  the  fitting  o>it  hei*e  was  about  the  same  as  on  the 
oth(»r  side 

ii. — When  you  got  through,  you  thought  the  fitting  out 
here  was  about  the  same  as  in  San  Francisco?  A. — Yes. 
sir. 

(i. — That  is  it  would  average  up?    A. — Average  up. 

(i. — Now,  give  us  a  general  idea  of  an  outfit  for  sealing.  1 
refer  to  an  outfit  for  a  sealing  cruise  in  these  yj'iirs?  A. — In 
the  way  of  provisions  or  the  whole? 

Q.—i  want  you  to  give  the  outfit  of  the  ship?  A.— There 
was  the  provisitm  bill  first. 

Q. — How  mu<h  would  you  provide  per  man?  A. — My 
estimate  has  been  usually  abt)ut  ten  dollars  a  month  for  a 
man. 

Q. — Before  you  come  to  tluit.  ('apt.  Miner,  have  you  given 
the  subject  sullicient  attention  in  your  experience,  so  that 
without  figuring  on  any  spetial  vessel,  you  had  any  data  by 
which  you  could  figure  for  yourself  about  what  y<»H  would 
want?  A. — Certainly,  I  know  the  cost  of  outfitting  for  every 
season  I  have  l)een  out;  that  is  approximately. 

Q. — Suppose  you    had    been    called    to  fit  out  a  schooner 
for  a  seiiling  voyage  to  Hehring  Sea  in  the  year  18H(i,  say,  did 
yon  have  knowledge  from  your  exp«'rience  so  that  you  could 
make  up  her  bills  or  invoices  for  her  outfit. 
.\. — I  could,  everything. 

Q. — From  your  experience  in  sealing,  you  could  tell  as  to 
what  she  would  need?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — N'(»w,  then,  will  you  tell  us  what  proportion  you  would 
take  of  provisions?  .\. — .My  provision  bill  has  always  run, 
for  the  number  of  men  I  had,  from  about  Jl,200  to  |l,7flO. 

(i. — Wlmt  number  of  men?     A. — .Vctordlng  to  the  numlter 
I  have  had.     I  have  had  from  21  to  '2Ty  num. 
Q. — Vou  never  have  had  as  low  as  11  men.     \. — Xo.  sir. 


If 

Mil 


m 


'■  Wvm 

y 

1 

1 

^1 

^4 

i:      ,  i  ; 


l',:i: 


!lf 


mww 


'tJMjr 


534 

(K.  1".  MiiuT— Dii-cft.) 

Q. — What  WiiH  vonr  proportion  per  ninn?  A. — I  alwnys 
fifturcd  it  in  tlie  cost  of  l{*'(>piii}r  tlio  men.  I  ncvor  fln<ii"<'  pro- 
viHionH  alono.  hut  tlicir  waH  tlio  fuel  and  otiicr  tliinpH,  and  [ 
always  floured  at  |1(). 

Q. — Incindin);  coal  and  li>;litK  and  cvorvtliinR  to  mali<'  tlio 
in»'n  coiiifortabic?  A. — Ych.  cvcrytliinjj  for  tlic  oxpcnw  of 
tlic  vovat?*'  in  tli«»  wav  of  Jivinjj  was  about  1^10  to  oacli  nnin. 

Q.— And  you  statt''#1.2(>()  to  f  1.700  for  from  20  to  24  men. 
'°  would  you  pleast"  tell  us  for  how  lon^i    a     voyajj;*'?    A. — I 
UHually  fitted  out  f(»r  nint'  months. 

Q. — And  suppose  you  were  ({oin^  for  four  or  live  inontlis? 
A. — I  would  fit  out  acrordiufily.  I  always  had  j)rovisions  to 
return.  I  never  stayed  lonji  enou^Ii  to  use  them.  I  never 
stayed  the  full  nine  months  out. 

Q. — What  would  you  figure  the  sh)p  chest  per  man?  A. — 
I  never  fljfure  the  slop  chest  in  tliat  way.  1  figure  tlmt  as  ad- 
vances. 

Q. — How?  A. — Hecanse  tliat  is  sold  to  the  men,  and  it 
comes  back  as  wages  paid  and  there  is  always  some  profit. 

(i. — What  would  you  figure  it  at  in  the  outfit?  A. — He- 
tween  three  and  four  hundered  dollars  for  an  extra  good  slop 
chest. 

Q. — For  how  many  men?  A. — For  a  crew  of  that  size, 
from  20  to  24  men, 

(J. — And  what  other  things  are  included  in  tlie  outfit  out- 
side of  l)oats  and  oars  and  sails  for  the  boats?  A. — Tliere 
are  guns  and  ammunition  and  loading  tools,  and  sjtears  and 
various  other  things. 
^  (i. — If  you  were  making  up  yonr  list  to  fit  your  schooner 
in  lS8fi.  how  would  you  say  as  to  the  amount  of  ammunition? 
.\. — I  knew  altoul  what  we  would  use  to  each  hunter. 

Q. — I  want  you  to  estimate  here  in  this  witness  box  as  you 
would  estimate  if  you  were  going  to  fit  out  a  schooner  in 
1880?    A. — My  ammunition  lull  usually  ran  about  f.'iSO. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United     States: — I 

wish  the  witness  to  understand  tlie  form  of  the  questiim  and 

to  answer  it  exactly  in  that  form.     I  do  not  wish  to  Iiave  a 

40   line  of  examination  opened  up  which  will  extend  the  record 

to  great  length. 

\\\  -Mr.  Dickinson: — Q. — I  ask  you.  suppose  you  were  fit- 
ting out  a  schooner  in  188(t?  .\. — I  should  take  seven  or 
eight  25pound  kegs  of  powder. 

Q. — For  how  man  hunters?  A. — For  six  hunters,  and  I 
would  take  abcuit  28  sacks  of  buckshot  and  al»out  10,000 
primers. 

Q. — What  ar(>  primers?    A. — Primers  are  the     fulminate 
5°  that  explodes  the  powder. 

Q. — Would  you  have  taken  this  in  188(!?     A.— About  that. 

Q. — How  much  did  the  sliot  cost  per  bag?  A. —  I  cannot 
say  what  it  cost  in  those  days. 

(i. — And  the  powder?  A. — The  powder  was  ^~  or  fiT.!)!*  a 
keg. 

Q. — Is  it  higher  or  lower  now?.\. — Much  lower  now. 

Q. — Is  shot  liiglier  or  lower?     A. — Shot  is  lower    than    it 
was. 
qq       Q. — You  understand  perfectly  that  you  are  (lealing  with 
the  values  in  Victoria  in  188(!.  fitting  out  here?     A. — No.  sir, 
in   1887  I  sjmke  of. 

K}. — Was  there  any  difference  in  the  outfit  Ix'tween  188(5 
and  18K7?  A.— Not  tiiat  I  know  of,  I  do  not  think  there  was. 
When  I  stated  the  j>rlce  (»f  powder  I  meant  tlie  Amencan 
price  and  Iher*'  is  the  duty  to  be  added  to  that  here. 

l}. — When  you  sjioke  of  the  average  outfit  being  altout 
ecpial  to  San  Francisco  and  finding  some  things  cheaper  in 


10 


20 


30 


(V..  1\  Mi.M'i— l)im(.) 

Victoria  and  moiiu*  things  th'ai'cr,  yon  Hitolvc  as  lo  pruvisioii- 
iim  tlicn?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Thert'  was  ii  duty  upon  aniinnniliiMi  tlicn?  A. —  Yes, 
sir,  there  was  a  duty  upon  ammunition  and  a  large  duty  u]mim 
guns  and  sudi  outfitting  as  that. 

tj. — And  you  had  to  liave  Ameriran  guns  and  Amcriian 
powder?  A. — It  was  nnnli  better  tlian  any  otlier  we  could 
get. 

y. — They  had  guns  and  powder  liere,  liad  tliey  not?  A. — 
Yes. 

(2. — And  American  guns  and  American  powder,  they  had 
tliem  here?    A. — I  did  not  see  any  Ameritan  guns  liere. 

Q. — If  they  fitted  out  with  American  guns  tliey  would  have 
to  pay  a  duty;  do  you  remember  wliat  duty  that  was?  A. — 
The  duty,  I  think,  was  20  per  cent,  on  guns. 

t^. — And  on  ammunition?  A. — I  thinl\  it  was  four  cents  id 
po<ind  on  powder,  if  I  remember  right. 

(i. — Now,  wliat  else  Itesides  the  guns,  the  slop  chest,  the 
ammunition  and  provisions?  A. — There  is  nothing  else  that 
would  go  to  a  sealing  outfit. 

(i. — L>o  you  think  of  any  sundries  of  any  kind  or  descrip 
tion  that  should  be  added  to  a  vessel  getting  ready  for  seal- 
ing? A. — One  sundry  that  should  be  added  (o  a  sealing  out- 
fit would  be  the  signal  gun  to  be  used  in  fog. 

Q. — How  large  a  gun?  A. — A  gun  of  about  two  inch  luire 
Kuilable  to  fire  about  a  quaiter  of  a  pound  of  powder  at  a 
charge;  I  should  say  if  nnide  of  brass,  it  would  cost  about 
ino  or  f5o. 

Q. — Is  there  any  oil  for  the  lamps  necessary  to  be  furnish- 
ed? A. — I  always  considered  that  in  the  |»rovision  '»ill,  it 
was  ordered  with  the  provisions. 

Q. — Y'ou  had  included  that  in  the  provision  bill?  .\. —  Yea, 
sir. 

Q. — Now,  about  extra  sails.      What  have  you  to  say  as  to 
that?      A. — That  goes  with  the  vessel,  and  not  with  the  seal 
ing  outfit. 
Q. — Now,  if  you  estimating  the  value  of  a  sealin;.  vessel. 
^0  I'iive  you  had  anything  to  do  with  the  price  in  buying  a  seal- 
ing vessel  yourself?       A. — I   have  dit-kered   witl.  other   ves 
sels,  I  never  bought  one  myself  but  I  have  had  an  iiiteresi 
in  one.       I  never  bought  one  outside,  but  I  have  bargained 
for  vessels. 
Q. — For  others?       A. — For  myself. 

ti. — You  knew  something  as  to  how  to  keep  posted  on  tlu; 
i-ost  and  value  of  vessels?      A. — Y'es.  sir. 

(i.— From  what  time?      A. -From  about  1SS8.  after  1  weni 
to  San  Francisco.       i  thought  then  of  getting  a  small  vessel 
;o  for  myself  to  go  north  otter  hunting,    and    I   sjjoke  (hen  lo 
Mr.  Turner. 

Q. — Are  you  familiar  with  tlie  cost  and  value  of  vessels  of 
tlie  cluu-acter  used  in  sealing?      A. — I  think  I  am. 

(2. — So  that  when  you  s(H'  a  vessel  at  sea  or  in  port  and  go 
njion  her  you  can  f«irm  an  idea  as  to  her  value  in  the  market  ? 
•V. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  she  should  sell' for?      A. — Yes.  sir. 
tj.— f)r  what  one  should  pay  for  her?      .V. — I  think  so. 
Q. — You  have  not  been  in  any  other  business  all  youi-  life 
but  this?       A.  -Not  until  I.SO.').' 

Q. — Then  what  did  you  do?  A. — I  have  a  little  restaur- 
:int. 

g.— Where?         A. -Seattle. 

Q. — Now.  in  estimating  the  value  of  a  ship,  if  you  buy  her 
to  Heal,  what  goes  with  her?  A. — Her  sails,  anchors,  chains, 
side  lights,  cooking  utensils,  range,  and  all  the  appurtenances 
ready  for  sea.  If  vou  bargain  for  a  new  vjssel  fitted  for 
sea  that  goes  with  her. 


Oo 


II- 


(■■    !,(, 


1 


;(;.  '■'' V 


■ijt'lMM 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


(V:  V.  Mini'i'— Diivct.) 

Q. — All  ready  for  s«'U?      A. — Voh,  sir. 
(i. — Itfiidy  witli  her  Hciiliii);  o(iiiij>iiicnt  and  roady  for  wa? 
A. — Vi'H,  «ir,  Willi  nraliiit;  ('i|iii|iin*Mit. 

(i. — Would  an  oxtra  sail  lie  part  of  the  Hliijt  or  part  of  the 
HiipplicH?  A. — An  t'xtra  Hail  would  bo  a<fount«'d  to  Die 
vcHHol;  a  v«'HH('l  iH  n«»t  Httod  f<»r  Hca  without  sonio  sparo  HailH. 
InHurancc  men  would  nut  take  the  liKk  witliout  an  oxtra  sail. 
(i. — What  about  ropoB  and  hawHcrs?  A. — Thoy  aro  llio 
snuic,  »\r. 

Q. — And  tlu'  Hhi[i  chandlery?  A. — A  now  vesHol  littoO  for 
Hoa  not'ds  but  very  littlo;  everything  ia  new  and  HU])|>oHed 
to  Inst. 

Q. — That  is  when  she  was  a  new  vessel,  but  I  am  Hp«'ak- 
inj?  of  an  ordinary  vessel  that  may  be  20  or  1((  or  15  yearn 
old.  A. — That  depends  on  what  condition  she  was  kept  in. 
she  nii};ht  want  very  niueh  shij)  chandlery  and  she  miglit 
want  very  little  if  slie  was  kejtt  in  pood  order.  I  was  >;(>- 
inj?  to  say  that  would  be  a  consideration  in  the  price  of  II10 
vessel  as  to  how  well  she  was  titted. 

Q. — Suppose  before  sendiuR  her  out  on  a  scaling  voyage  she 
was  repaired,  and  new  planks  put  in  her  and  the  old  planks 
taken  out,  and  she  was  |)ainted  and  new  locks  ])ut  on  her 
cabin  and  lockers,  wh»'n  equipping  her/  in  making  her  ready 
for  sea,  before  her  s»'uling  outtlt  was  jiut  upon  her;  would 
you  take  this  into  consideration  in  addition  to  her  estinuited 
value?  A. — No,  sir^  1  should  put  that  to  the  cost  of  the 
vessel. 

Q.— That  is  if  you  call  a  ship  worth  f.1,000  on  the  Ist  of 
December,  18!)0,  and  in  the  meantime,  between  the  Ist  of 
December,  iMlMi,  and  the  Ist  of  January.  IH!»7,  she  was  ]ml 
ill  thorough  repair,  you  would  not  say  «he  was  worth  |i:{.(MIO 
on  the  1st  of  DecemlMT,  and  ^;'.,()(K>  on  the  Ist  of  January,  with 
(he  rejiaira  added,  would  you?  A. — No,  sir,  that  would  Ih' 
the  cost  of  the  repairs. 

Q. — Do  you  know  anything  about  the  original  cost  of  any 
ships  of  your  own;  1  mean  sealing  vessels  of  a  similar  size 
and  type?  A. — I  know  of  similar  vessels  having  been  built 
in  California  about  that  time.  The  estimated  <'o«t  of  ves- 
sels up  to  that  time  of  about  40  tons  was  flOO  r«'gister  ton 
nage.  I  remember  that  because  1  thought  it  very  strange 
that  they  built  vessels  by  registered  tonnage. 

Q.— That  was  in  1886?      A.— No,  that  was  in  1888. 

Q. — I  want  to  get  at  the  price  in  1880?  A. — I  am  not 
familiar  with  any  vessels  sold  in  that  time. 

Q. — Do  you  know  anything  about  the  price  of  the  "linger?" 
A. — I  know  the  cost  of  her;  the  builder  told  me. 

Q. — When  was  she  built?  A. — She  was  built  somewhere 
in  the  early  eighties. 

ii. — Now.  we  are  getting  back.  Von  kn«'W  her  in  188<i'' 
— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  was  her  tonnage?       A. — About  25  tons. 

Q.— How  long  was  she  b.illt  before  1880?  A.— She  was 
built  in  the  first  of  the  eighties.  1881  or  1882.  I  know  I  saw 
her  north  at  the  latter  end  of  the  eighties,  Ix'fore  she  w:is 
lost. 

Q. — Did  you  know  the  ship?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Heen  on  board  her?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  was  the  name  of  the  bu''der  of  that  ship?  A.— 
Matthew  Turner. 

(i.— What  was  her  cost?    A.— She  cost  *2.r)n(). 

Q. — Do  you  know  anything  about  the  "Margie"?  A. — She 
was  exactly  like  the  "I'nger,"  they  were  sister  shii)s. 

Q. — And  cost  the  same?    A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — And  built  about  the  same  time?     A. — Yes,  sir. 


lO 


30 


40 


;<! 


r.) 


S37 
(E.  r.  Miner— IMivct.) 

Q. — VVori'  llicw  HiiipH  liiiilt  iit  Sun  FnnifiHto  built  t»f  lUtn\i 
liiH  Hr  or  of  On-pm  pih.-?  A. — Tlioy  wcri'  hnilt  nt  San  Fniii- 
liwo  and  iUvy  wtTc  l>uilt  of  Oregon  pint*  or  DoukIxh  Hr. 

(i. — Ih  fhcro  any  dittrrt-nct'  hotwci-n  Oregon  pine  and 
l>ouf;laH  lir?     A.   -Not  tliat  I  know  of. 

Q. — And  tlu'w*  wtTc  bnilt  ot  tliat  niatcrinlt    A. — "^  ««. 

(2. — l»id  you  know  tlw  "Carolciia"?  A. — I  saw  Iut  on  tlur 
beach;  I  never  Haw  her  afloat. 

Q. — What  sort  of  a  boat  wan  Hhe.  an  to  iK'inK  well  built, 
was  she  old  or  new  style?  A. —  It  was  a  very  ohl  style  of 
veswl,  that  is,  in  incMlel. 

(). — Her  model   was  very  old  style?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

II. — Did  that  fact  impair  her  market  value  at  all?  A. — It 
surely  would. 

Q.--What  \a  the  difference  between  the  old  style  and  the 
new  style?  A. — They  are  modehMl  to  be  better  sailers  and 
Ix'tter  sea  boats  in  tlie  ncx.    model. 

H. — Was  she  deficient  in  those  respects  in  her  nuidel?  A. 
— I  should  say  so. 

Q. — Was  she  in  accordance  with  the  standard  of  ships  of 
her  size  and  tonnage?  A. — She  was  defective  as  to  a  sailer; 
I  should  never  pick  her  out  as  being  a  sailer. 

(2. — The  (juestion  is,  whether  she  was  up  to  the  expected 
standard  of  IMHti  of  vessels  of  her  size  and  class  in  model  and 
in  sailing  qualities?  A. — I  should  nctt  have  considered  her 
so. 

Q. — Would  that  impair  her  market  value?  Would  there 
be  a  difference  Ix'tween  her,  even  if  she  was  in  tine  seaworthy 
condition  and  sound  timber,  as  compared  to  a  ship  of  modern 
build?  A. — It  would  be  to  anyone  who  had  an  ey<'  for  su<h' 
things. 

Q. — That  means  something  to  a  person  buying  her?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

(J. — To  a  man  engaged  in  ihe  business?  .\. — Yes.  sir.  it 
means  everything. 

ij. — They  want  the  best  model  and  the  fastest  sailers?  A. 
— Yes.  sir. 

Q. — You  saw  that  ship  in  1887,  I  suppose?  A. — I  did  not 
see  her  until  188!>. 

(i. — Her  model  has  not  changed  and  she  was  not  broken 
up  any?  A. — \o.  sir,  she  was  not  broken  up,  only  her  rig- 
ging was  down. 

Q. — And  assuming  that  she  was  in  a  seaworthy  <'ondition 
with  entirely  sound  timbers  in  188(>,  what  would  be  the  dif- 
ference in  value  betwe«'n  that  ship  and  a  new  ship  of  a 
iiKKlern  c«mstniction  iind  build?  A. — I  should  say  fully  !>(i 
iicr  cent. 

(.y — Do  you  take  that  valuation  at  San  Francisco,  Victoria 
or  Seattle?  A. — San  Fiiincisco  would  be  the  only  place  I 
could  base  my  calculation  »m. 

Q. — Do  you  take  her  valuation  from  the  liead(|uarters  of 
the  market  for  such  ships?     A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Now,  we  will  add  to  that  condition:  a  ship  of  the  old 
model  that  you  saw,  and  we  will  add  to  the  des<Tiption  1  have 
given  to  yon,  that  she  was  built  in  18fi1,  that  she  was  on  the 
stakes  here  in  1884,  and  had  been  lengthen<'d  eight  feet  by 
taking  out  her  center  and  building  in  a  section  of  about  eight 
feet  in  length,  so  thai  she  was  of  the  same  model  when  yon 
Paw  her,  as  she  would  be  after  the  eight  feet  had  been  added 
in  the  centre;  but  suppose  that  the  shij)  was  built  in  18fil,  and 
then  rebuilt  in  1884,  what  would  you  say  as  to  her  valuation 
as  compared  with  a  new  ship?  A. — The  valuation  would  de- 
pend a  great  deal  on  what  condition  she  had  been  kept  in. 

Q. — Rut  suppose  she  was  built  in  18fil  and  had  bfH'U  cut  in 
two  and  a  section  of  eight  feet  introduced  in  her  center,  and 


i 


\\m  'I!'!!  w 


53S 


-iJlM 


\"< 


iV.  r.  Miiu'i'-IHivrl.) 

Hiippom*  Ikt  to  tif  Hoiiiid?  A. — I  wniihl  haw  tli<'  viiliiatioii 
of  h(>r  ii|Miii  til)'  liiiHJiH'HH  hIk*  whh  K<>i"K  '<>  fiitfi-,  iiiui  how 
iiHpfiil  Kh«'  would  be  for  tluit   buMiiu-HM  more  than  anything 

Q. — Hut  in  the  market,  what  wan  mIic  worth  in  llic  ninrkct? 
A. — lu  lh<>  niarkft  I  think,  Hh«>  would  Ih>  iiroltahly  uwIi'rh, 
unlcHH  tlieri>  wuh  houi**  HiHTJal  liuHint'HH  to  put  her  into  that 
IQ   Hhe  could  aifonipliHli. 

Q, — What  you  mean  to  wiy  Ih,  that  licr  value  would  depend 
upon  the  Hpecial  eirciiniHtanee  of  »ouie  one  wanting  her  for 
a  HpocinI  buHineHH?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  what  would  you  «ay  an  to  her  value  in  the  market 
generally?  A. —  In  the  market  f;enerally  a  veKHel  that  had 
been  built  up  ho  much  on  and  of  tiiat  ap-.  would  be,  I  think, 
«'omparativ»'ly  UHelenH.  There  could  be  no  market  valtie  wet 
on  her. 

Q. — They  would  very  likely  have  to  make  a  npeeial  wile? 
20  A. — YeH,  Hir. 

Q. — Now  you  were  Healing'  in  lleiirinn  Sea  in  IH87?  A. — 
In  IHXl  I  sealed  in  tlie  Hehrinn  S«'a. 

Q.— What  did  you  go  into  the  Hehrinj;  Sea  in  IHS7?  A.— 
In  the  "Penelope." 

Q. — You  carried  boatu?  A. — Yes,  I  carried  six  boats,  live 
boats  and  the  stern  boat  which  I  hunted  in  myself.    • 

Q. — And  you  had  been  in  the  sea.  I  think,  every  year  since 
18H1?     A. — Not  sir.  sinci'  IHSl.     I  remained  on  Jhe  .lapanese 
const  until  IHHti. 
30       Q. — l>id   I   not   understand  you   to  say   that     you     passeil 

■M\i«  I  never  came  further  east 


(J. — Did   I   not   understand 
through  the  sea  in  IHHIi?     A.- 
thnn  ('opfH'r  Islands. 

Q. — Hut  in  the  years  on  a 


you   had  a  chance?     .\. — 
\. —  I  did  not  seal  in 


Japanese  coast   ycui   were  seal 
hunting?     A. — Seal  hunting;  and  otter  huntiuf;. 

(J. — And  from  IHHH  until  IKK")  you  have  sealed  every  year 
In  the  liehrin;,'  Kea?  .\. — Not  every  year;  I  have  l»een  warn- 
ed out. 

Q. — You   have  sealed   whenever  y""    '""'   "   '••>niii.«'' 
Yes,  sir. 
40      Q. — ^Yhat  years  did  you  not  seal 

1S88  and  I  did  not  seal  in  18!»1!  and  18!t:{.     I  would  not  be  pos 
itive  about   18}»2. 

Q. — Now,  when  yon  went  into  the  sea  in  tlie  "l'eneloi)e." 
did  you  come  upon  larpe  number  of  seals  at  times?  .\. — You 
mean  in  sipht  from  the  vessel? 

Q. — Yes?  A. — I  suppose  I  have  seen  bunches  of  2(1  oi-  2."i 
wals. 

Q. — And  in  your  boats?  A. — 1  have  seen  the  same  bunclifs 
layinfj  around.       We  do  not   esliiiiate  tlie  number  of  seals 
50    around  by  one  bunch.     We  used  to  run  across  them. 

Q. — One  bunch  would  indicate  that  there  were  other 
bunches  near?     A. — '^'es.  sir.  on  the  feeding  ground  of  seals. 

Q. — I»o  you  find  it  to  occur  as  an  ordinary  or  excej) 
tional  occurrence,  that  when  there  are  abundant  seals  on  the 
grounds  yon  sometimes  cannot  pet  them?  A. — I  have  seen 
that  so.  I  have  8e<'n  it  more  ditticiilt  to  jj;»'t  them  when  there 
was  an  abundance  of  seals  than  when  they  were  more  scat 
tered. 

Q. — You  could  kill  in  a  segregated  bunch  easier  than  you 
^o  could  in  a  large  bunch?     A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q.— What  is  the  difficulty  about  that?  A.— They  do  not 
sleep  when  they  are  together. 

Q. — They  are  disposed  to  play?     A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — And  when  awake  is  it  less  easy  to  g<'t  tliem?  A. — It 
is  very  much  more  dilticult  to  get  tlieiii. 

Q. — Is  there  any  large  proportion  of  seals  lost  after  being 
shot  when  they  are  awake?  A. — Yes.  sir.  of  awake  seals  ii 
large  proportion  are  lost? 


20 


5.W 
([••    r.  MiiHT— hirtTl.) 

Q,  -Why  Im  ihiit?  A. — UftaiiKc  tlicv  iirc  Htaii<liiiu  up  in 
tli«>  wnttM-  tiiHl  hIioI  from  tli<'  fi-oiit  lookiiiK  lit  voii.  Tlit-y  fall 
on  tiicir  IxK'k  tlx-n.  iinil  I  nndt'iNtnnd  tliiit  tlir  nir  conirH  out 
of  their  hndv  nnd  tlicv  hIiiI;  tail  tiiNt. 

(i. — And  j{o  out  of  Hi^ht  iind  iin-  lost?     A. — Y«'h. 

ii. — They  doit'r  conn-  up  tipiin?  A. —  I  n«'v«T  knew  of  one 
to  lonie  up;  n  dend  xeiil  will  sink  like  a  Ntone. 

Q. — You  never  knew  of  one  to  eoine  up?  A. — I  nlwayn  un- 
'"  derHtood  It  that  way.  When  the  wind  Ih  (Mit  of  them  they  go 
down  like  a  Htone.  but  if  they  art'  Hhot  from  the  baek  they 
Moat  (]uite  a  while. 

y. — And  they  are  Hhot  from  the  hack  when  aHleep?  A. — 
Y«>H,  Hir. 

(i. — When  yon  approaeh  them  aH  they  are  awake  they  uhu- 
ally  are  fnmtin^  you?  A. — Yew.  tMcauNe  moHl  of  the  time 
if  they  know  you  are  about  tliey  try  to  look  at  you. 

(j. — I>o  the  NealH  scent  a  num?     A. — Yes,  nir. 

(J. — At  wliat  diHtance?  A. — 1  tliink  at  an  extraordinary 
diHtanc(*. 

Q. — Beyond  tlie  nifflit  of  tlie  vessel?  A. — Oil.  no,  nir.  but 
I  sliould  think  at  least  a(H)  or  41)0  yards. 

Q. — Is  there  any  special  method  adopted  because  of  thiH 
in  approaching  a  seal?  A. — We  always  approadi  from  the 
Ie«'ward.  Tliat  is,  if  we  are  to  the  windward  of  the  seal  we 
are  careful  not  to  i»ass  her  tliat  way. 

Q. — Now,  ('a]>tain  Miner,  out  of  a  body  of  seals  awake, 
what  proj)ortion  of  tliem  that  are  killed  are  lost?  A. — It  de- 
30   pends  a   K''«'»t   deal   on   tlie  man    who   slioots   llieiii. 

Q. — Do  you  shoot  tliem  at  some  distance  wlien  they  are 
awake?  A. — If  you  shoot  tliem  at  a  lonfj  distance.  I  think 
fully  half  would  be  lost. 

Q.— Fully  half?  A.— Yes,  sir,  that  is  when  we  kill  at  a 
lonji  distance. 

Q. — You.  yourself,  I  think,  aio  a  pretty  crack  shot?  A. — 
Yes.  I  have  always  shot  some  seals. 

Q. — Well,  it  is  not  immodest  for  you  to  say.  if  you  have 
the  reputation  of  beiuR  a  firstclaBS  shot,  have  you?  A. — 
40  Yes,  Bir. 

Mr.  Peters: — If  we  are  ffoinjj  into  the  question  of  how 
nianj'  seals  are  lost  by  sinking  after  being  shot,  we  will  en- 
ter into  a  rather  broad  inquiry.  I  think  that  evidence  of 
that  kind,  has  been  stopped  by  the  Commissioners  even  on 
the  croKH-examination  of  our  witnesses.  The  real  question 
before  ns  is:  Notwithstanding  all  these  diflticulties  what 
number  of  seals  are  caught. 

Mr.  Hodwell: — I  commenced  to  examine  a  witness  on  this 
50  v,.py  point  now  objected  to.  aiui  1  was  stopjied. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  can  produce  witness  after  witness  to  say 
that  what  Captain  Miner  is  stating  is  not  the  case,  and  that 
the  experience  of  other  fieople  is  different.  Numbers  of 
witnesses  who  have  been  on  the  stand  can  testify  to  that 
effect.  I  refer  to  page  204  of  the  printed  evidence  and  I 
find  that  this  very  question  was  put  to  one  of  our  witnesses 
and  ruled  out.  Captain  O'Leary  was  being  examined  by  my 
h-arned  friend.  Mr.  Hodwell.  and  the  following  took  place: 


60 


"Q. — What  is  your  experience  as  to  the  proportion  of  seals 
which  are  lost  by  hunters  in  sealing,  1  mean,  what  is  the 
proportion  of  seals  they  lose  com])ared  with  those  they  get? 

"The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  T'nited  States:— 
What  have  we  to  do  with  that.  Mr.  Bodwell? 

"Mr.  Hodwell : — My  friends  have  opened  that  question. 

"The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  Tnited  States: — This 
is  your  case  now .  not  the  defendant's  case. 


i'  II  !! 


iH'lltr. 


30 


[E.  r.  MiiU'i— Diivcl.) 

"Mr.  Bodwcll: — I  think  I  have  <lu'  right  to  asHunic  that 
when  my  friends  opt-n  a  line  of  Htraight  crossoxaniination— 

"The  ConuniNsiouer  on  tlie  part  of  Her  Majesty: — Did  tlie.v 
not  put  that  in  as  qnalif.ving  a  general  remark  made  that  .vou 
relied  upon  in  the  report  of  the  case  of  the  American  (lovern 
ment. 

"Mr.  Bodwell: — Tiie  ]>ortion  of  the  case  that  we  put  in,  as 
jQ   I  remember  it,  did  not  refer  at  all  to  that  subject;  it  referred 
simply  to  the  irail  that  the  seals  use  in  going  into  Rehring 
Sea,  and  the  number  that  went  in  there. 

"The  Commissioner  on  tlu;  part  of  Her  Majesty: — The 
ground  on  which  it  was  put  in  was  that  it  (|ualified.  It  may 
or  may  not  have  qualified,  but  that  was  the  reason  which 
justified  its  going  in  at  the  time." 

Then  the  matter  dropped  and  the  question  was  not  allow 
ed.  On  our  part  it  does  appear  to  nie  that  we  are  entering 
into  a  very  broad  inipiiry  if  we  are  going  into  this  very 
20  soientific  question  as  to  whether  a  seal  will  sink  whether  yon 
shoot  him  on  the  back  or  whetlier  you  shoot  him  dead,  or 
whether  you  don't  quite  kill  him.  If  we  enter  into  tliat  wc 
will  be  in  an  endless  inquiry.  As  I  have  already  said,  the 
practical  question  before  us  is:  Notwithstanding  all  these 
difflculties  what  quantity  of  seals  on  an  average  could  be 
caught. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — From  the  time  my  learned  friend  intro 
duced  here  a  number  of  statements  from  the  American  case, 
and  from  the  time  that  he  put  in  maps  and  asked  witnesses 
to  point  out  where  seals  were  caught,  and  submitted  maps, 
showing  the  habitat  of  the  .seals  in  Heliring  Sea;  from  tliat 
time  I  have  seen  that  if  tliat  testimony  stood  we  would  be 
compelled  to  meet  it  precisely  in  the  way  we  are  doing.  And 
why?  If  that  testimony  had  any  jiurpose  whatever,  it  was 
put  in  for  the  imrpose  of  showing  that  the  seals  were  there 
in  great  numbers,  and  could  be  easily  killed.  My  hsirncd 
friends  read  from  the  American  case  to  show  that  the  seals 
were  there    in    great    numbers    and    notably    tiie    females. 

40  They  then  put  in  another  i)art  of  the  case,  and  rc-'d  testimony 
to  show  that  b«'tween  certain  distances,  about  l(l(»  miles 
wide,  there  was  a  great  (luantily  of  sea Is^a  river  of  seals,  if 
you  pleas*'.  The  evidenc<'  was  intended  to  show  that  for 
about  l(l(»  miles  wide  there  was  a  solid  nniss  of  seals  during 
the  hunting  and  sealing  season.  All  of  that  docunu-ntary 
testimony,  and  all  of  these  majm  tendered  in  evidence  were  in 
tended  to  demonstrate  that  there  were  seals  there,  and  there 
fore  (cm  their  own  (lieoryl  that  they  are  entitled  to  recover 
for  the  problematic  catch  of  what  they  chose  to  take  out  of 

50  ihe  sea  because  thev  were  there.  Naturally,  if  that  testi 
mony  stood,  may  it  jdease  ycnii  Honours,  we  are  compellcil 
to  say  that  even  if  the  seals  were  there,  there  were  such  modi 
fica'iiens  that  they  could  not  get  the  seals,  not  even  if  the 
channel,  1(»»  miles  wide,  was  full  of  them.  We  are  now  go 
ing  into  the  modifications  which  afT<'ct  a  large  catch  of  .s(>als. 
and  we  are  proving  that  first  and  foremost,  if  they  do  g<'t 
seals  their  liesi  chance  of  getting  them  is  when  they  arc 
asleep.  We  .ire  proving  here  that  they  were  lost  in  I'cr- 
tain     numbers.      if       they       were      shot       when      awake. 

^  and  we  did  not  object  to  the  »  xaininalioii  the  other  day.  and 
I  cimfess  I  did  not  oliserve  that  vour  Honours  ruled  any 
snch  testimony  out;  but  upon  this  point  i  did  not  ])roposi' 
to  j)ress  the  wit!iess  any  further.  1  shall  insist,  however, 
in  th"  course  of  the  trial,  iij)  to  Ihe  point  where  the  Com- 
missioners rule  it  out  and  alisolnlely  demonstrate  it.  thai 
with  a  channel  full  of  seals,  and  packed  dose  with  seals, 
that  the  hunters  cannot  get  a  single  seal  nndei-  certain  con 
ditions,  (o  meet   the  Icstinionv  that   because  seals  are  there 


54> 
iK.  r.  MiiuT— IHrcct.) 

ihe.v  rail  loud  tht'ir  sliipH  ad  intiuituiii  with  wal».      They  pnt 

(hat  testimony  in  for  no  otlicp  |»tii'i»oH('.       Tlicy  called  ont 

from  one  witness  that  they  eould  put  7000  sealskins  in  the 
•'(.'arolena.'' 

Mr.  Peters: — Oh.  no. 

-Mr.  Ditkinson: — Yes.  it  is  in  the  proof,  the  evidence  is  in 
IQ   that  they  could  jtut  700(»  seals  into  the  "( 'arolena." 

Mr.  Peters: — Judge  King  asked  how  many  seals  could  she 

(■aiTV. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  do  not  remember  who  asked  the  cpies- 
lion,  but   it   is  here. 

.Mr.  PeterH:--Vou  will  tind  my  answer  to  tiiat  remark,  tliat 
if  they  once  tilled  h<'r  with  sealskins  they  would  not  want 
Id  go  sealin;',  any  more. 

20  Mr.  Dickin.soii: — Hut  that  proof,  may  it  please  the  Com- 
iiiissioners.  is  no  more  extra<trdinary  than  the  jtroof  they  put 
ill,  and  the  copies  they  jMit  in  to  show  that  seals  are  there 
certainly  in  great  i|uantiti('S,  in  order  to  show  that  the  prob- 
iilile  catch,  if  they  had  not  been  seized,  would  have  been  the 
enormous  catch  that  they  propose  to  liold  the  United  States 
for.  That  is  all  it  is  for.  So  far  as  this  witness  is  con- 
cerned, as  I  have  just  shown,  he  has  testified  that  he  is  a 
great  shot  hims<>lf,  and  nirely  loses  a  seal,  is  a  skilful  man; 
liiit  I  am  asking  him  generally  as  to  the  loss  of  seals,     lint 

^°  as  tile  objection  is  raised,  I  call  marked  attention  to  our  |»ro- 
jiosition  tliat  we  will  submit  absolutely  <'oiivincing  proof  to 
tills  high  Commission  in  answer  to  this  documental  proof — 
the  affidavits  they  h.ave  read  from  the  American  case  that 
(liey  cannot  catch  seals  if  the  seals  are  there. 

The  <'ommissionei'  on  the  jiart  of  the  I'nited  States: — 
Have  we  any  (piestion  before  us  now,  Mr.   Oickinson? 

.Mr.  Dickinson: — \o,  your  Homuir.       So  far  as  this  witness 
,f,  is  concerned  I  started  in  (m  this  incidentally. 

Tlie  Commissioner  on  tile  part  of  tln'  I'nited  States: — We 
will  eiideavoi-  to  meet  the  (luestion  when  it  comes  before  us. 

.Mr.  Peters: — VVlien  I  perceived  lliat  my  learned  friend 
was  going  into  the  matter  to  a  great  e.\teiit,  I  objected.  Mr. 
Dickinson  says  lie  does  not  wish  to  follow  that  up  any  fur- 
ther. If  he  does  I  must  press  the  objectuui;  and  in  that 
event  I  woiihl  like  to  have  a  ruling  wliethei-  that  evidence  in 
there  now  should  stand.  Tli<'  (iiiesliiui  conies  iiji  In  a  jilaiii, 
SO  ilislliicf,  and  '-lear  form,  and  of  course  If  It  Is  allowed  we 
must  govern  ourselves  accv>cdiiigly,  and  when  the  propel-  time 
comes,  put  in  rebuttal  evidence  upon  that  point.  >ir.  Dick- 
inson states  lie  has  hundi-eds  of  witnesses— 

The  Commissioner  on  llu'  part  of  the  rnited  Slates: — Oh, 
yes.  you  can  get  a  thousand  on  each  side.  There  is  not  a 
hit  of  It.  from  tlie  first  paragraiih  re;id  down  to  tlie  presciit 
time,  that  would  have  tlie  slightest  elfect  on  my  mind.  It 
is  iiapossilile  to  tell  where  it  is  goiiig  to  land  us  unless  coun 
f-,Q  scl  will  agree  to  limit  themselves  to  llie  iiiimlier  of  wit- 
nesses. 

.Mr.  Peters: — I  have  only  to  say  tliat  there  is  a  specitic 
pojiii  brought  up  now  as  to  the  number  of  seals  lost  iiv  sink- 
ing. 

The  C<miiiiisslonei'  on  the  part  of  ilie  Initeil  States: — \\v 
iiic  not  prejiared  to  rele  upon  II  at  jut'.senl. 

.Mr,  Dickin.son   -Tiien  with  tlii'<  witness  I  pass  it, 


1^ 


« 


542 


Itl'l 


10 


20 


30 


40 


iJ 


60 


(';.  r.  Miner— Diivct.) 

Tlio  Coiiimissioiu'  011  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — The  state- 
ments  made  bv  thi>  witness  mi  far  will  abide  the  ruling;. 

Direct  exauiiu!  tiou  conUuued  bv  Mr.   Dickinsou.. 

Q. — Nftw.  <'aj  taiu  Miner,  will  voii  please  state  whether  the 
firinff  of  the  yi  ns  will  awaUen  tlie  seals?  A. — It  does  verv 
tuiieh,  yes,  s'-. 

Q. — 1>0(  .,  it   ten<l  to  niaiie  them  wild?       A.— Yes,  sir. 

(}. — .*  .id  do  they  I'lin  from  tiie  sliiji  or  from  the  boats  when 
the  f'.ins  iH'ji'ui  to  tire?  .\. — They  ;;t't  awav  from  the  boat 
that  is  tirinj;  as  fast  as  they  can. 

(^.--And  they  can  }i(i  faster  than  a  boat  can  be  jiulled  by 
an  oa.'sman,  ran  they  not?      .\. — Yes.  sir. 

(.i. — So  tliat  tile  nuns  awaken  tlieiii.  and  the  seals  that  arc 
near  enoiif;h  to  hear  tlie  films,  to  lie  frifiiiteiied  by  tlieiii, 
make  way?  .\. — I  tiiink  atiiios|iheric  clian;ies  Imve  a  frreal 
deal  to  do  witii  it.  Some  days  liiey  apparently  sleeji  very 
soundly,  do  not  awake  easily,  and  others  tiiey  are  very  easilv 
disturbed. 

ii. — And  then  tiiey  arc  restive  and  run?       .V. —  \'ery. 

ii. — And  t;et   away?       .V. — .\s  soon  as  tliey  can. 

Q. — Now  is  it  a  fact  tliat.  takin};  tlie  season  of  .Inly  and 
.Vngnst,  you  ger  a  very  small  jn'oportion  of  the  seals  you  see. 
takinft  tlie  sealiu;;  season  from  bef;innin}i  to  end?  A. — Yes, 
sir;  there  is  a  jxreat  differenece  in  different  men  who  liiiiil 
about  that.  I  have  carried  men  witii  nie  who  [  don't  think 
would  averafie  one  in  ten  of  what  they  saw;  other  men  would 
ffet  nim-  <nit  of  every  ten  th.it  tliey  saw. 

Q. — Yon  yourself  rarely  lose  a  seal  when  y<  u  .^  ;  after  him? 
A. — If  I  get  close  enoii^fli  to  shoot  him. 

Q. — You  usually  jiet  a  seal  when  you  shoot  mm?  .\. — 
Yes.  sir,  usually. 

Q. — So  that  yon  f;et  a  very  lar^re  proportion  of  the  seals 
you  shoot?  .\. — Ye.*",  sir;  I  don't  like  to  take  chances  of  their 
Scttin}^  away. 

Q. — And  one  of  the  reasons  you  jret  so  iarjte  a  proportion 
i.s  your  faniiliai'ily  with  t'ne  hunting:  of  sciiis.  so  that  you  do 
not  shoot  if  the  chances  are  iif-ainst  your  j;etiii)r  a  dead  seal? 
A. — Ye.s,  sir. 

(i. — Have  you  noticed  iliat  storms  smldeiil.\  coniint;  up 
awaken  the  seals  and  make  them  restless?  .\. — Yes,  even 
a  small  bi'ceze,  1  think,  makes  them  more  restive  than  any- 
thiiifj:  else;  the  bcKinnim:  of  a  siorm  coiniiiff  up. 

Q. — In  that  case  they  are  awakened?  .\. — Yes,  sir;  1  have 
noticed  a  <j;real  iminy  inslam-es  where  tliei'e  are  a  {jreat  iiiaiiv 
seals  in  siffht  in  ditl'erent  jilaces;  have  seen  them  every  fi'W 
minutes;  and  when  a  lijilit  breeze  spran;r  uji  there  was  not  a 
seal  to  be  seen. 

Q. — .\nd  of  all  tiiose  seals  in  sifflit  you  would  >iet  no  more? 
.\. — Yi's,  sir;  ijiey  disapiieared. 

ii- — .\nd  have  you  noticed  that  a  heavy  rain  will  awaken 
seals?  .\. —  ^■es,  sir;  tle-y  will  nut  sleep  .at  al!  in  a  heavy 
lain;  they  will   roll  and   l»lay. 

t^.— What  are  the  chances  of  geltiii);  seals  in  siffht  when 
they  :ii('  in  that  ((mdition?  .\. — The  chances  are  against 
getting  them;  one  has  to  work  very  caitimisly. 

Q.  So  that  the  lai'ge  catches  are  11  ade  of  llie  sleepiiej: 
seals'  .\. — The  largest  catches  are  made  in  calm  weather 
of  sleeping  seals. 

(i.  ~  \\  l.at  have  you  to  say.  'aplain  Miner,  as  to  this  pm 
position.'  ^'ou  seiil  111  I'chring  Sea  al  a  given  |poinl  of  lati 
tilde  ami  longitude'  on  llie  .>^ili  of  .Inly,  we  will  say.  ISSfi.  and 
vol"  find  seals  in  plenty  and  good  hunling.  l>oes  it  follow 
that    \ou  will   tind  seals  at  the  sanii'  sc  ,isoii  of  the  year  an 


543 


iK.   1'.  MiiK'i' — Diifcl — <"i'<i,ss.i 

otluT  yt'iir  in  tlic  same  liititudi'  imd  longitude?  A. — No,  sir, 
it  doesn't. 

Q, — Is  that  your  experience?  A. — My  experience  has  been 
that  where  1   found  tlie  feed  1   found  the  Heals. 

ly — You  follow  tile  feed  radierlhan  the  seals?  A. — Ves.  sir. 

Cross-exaniinalion  liy  Sir  <".  II.  Tapper: 

10       Q. — What  is  your  a}.M',  <"aplain  Miner?      A. — 42. 

i]. — Wliat  wa><  your  a^re  wlien  yon  first  went  to  sea?  A. — 
1  went  to  .sea  in  IST'i;  I  w:i',  21  years  old. 

Q. — Had  you  ever  li"en  employed  in  shipyards?  A. — No 
sir. 

(i. — Speakiuff  ^{enerallx.  did  you  do  any  bnniness  at  all  he- 
fore  you  were  -21  years  of  .ure?      \.—l  did  different  business 
wilti  lioises  and  farminft. 
Q.— Then  you  went   to  sea?       .\. — Yes    sir. 
Q. —  Before  tiie  mast  oi-  as  a  liunter?      A. — Ah  a  hunter. 
-o       (.}. — Were  you  a  }i<H)d  shot  at  21?       A. — Yes,  sir;  I   was 
taken  because  !   was  a  flood  shot. 

Q. — -Vnd  fnuii  that  time  down  iiave  yc  u  followed  any  other 
occupation  until  you  linally  left   the  sea?       A. — No,  sir. 

ii- — You  have  nor  been  ent?aKed  in  the  construction  of 
ships?       A. — N;>,  sir. 

il. — You  could  not  construct  a  ship?  A. — I  could  not. 
(i.— Your  time  has  been  fully  o<cupied  with  your  pursuit 
of  hunting;?  .V. — Yes,  sir;  except  winters,  when  I  did  noth- 
iiiji — waitin^j  for  the  next  voyafie. 
3^  Q. — Now  when  you  first  w<'ni  liuntinj;  you  were  on  the  Ja- 
panese coast  and  Hussian  coast?  A. — First  went  iiuntin^ 
on  the  California  coast. 

(-i. —  In  what  >  icinity  did  you  hunt?  IIow  far  north?  A. 
— Tlie  first  voyage  was  from  San  Frainisco  south. 

(i.— (ioiiiiX  out  about  when?  .\. — 1  could  not  tell  just  the 
time  of  year:  I  lliink  alonK  in   .March  some  time. 

Q. — .\bout   March,  and  you  steered  south?       .\. — Yes.  sir. 
i] — And  what   would  be  die  coiuse  of  the  ship  when  you 
started  from   port,  fur  what  plac"  would  you  make?     A. — 
We  went  to  Santa  Harbaia  Island-  fiisl. 

Q. — .\nd  how  many  (iiin'S  did  \(ii  t;ike  that  trip?  .V. — I 
took   that    trip  twice. 

Q. — Tlie  same  course  eacli  lime?  .\. — No,  once  from  San 
Kraucisro;  that  was  ilie  first;  then  fi'om  Santa  IJarbara.  The 
vessel  tiffed  out   frum  Sania   Marbara. 

H. — What    ])oint   would   you   first    make;  did  you  start   the 
same  time  of  year?       .\.— .\bout   the  same  time;  we  made 
Santa  Rosa    Isjjinds   first. 
;o       W- — What  sort  of  luck  had  you  there?       .\.— VY.-  had  very 
pour  luck  the  til  St  time. 
(i. —  Muf  not  some  seals?       .\. — No.  1  was  after  otter. 
ii — You  went  affii   oiter?       .\. — N Cs.  sir. 
(J.— And   the  next    time  after  otter?       A.— The  next  time 
after  otter. 

q, —  |>i,i   vou  ^ee  .seals  on   i Itese  occasions?       .\. — Scatter- 
in;;  ones  only, 
(i-— I'iUt  you  saw  seal*  on  both  occasions?       .\. — Yes,  sir. 
»).  — What   year  does   that    brinj:   us   to.  your  second   offer 
^"'  trip?       .\. — Thai    briiiy;s   me — tliere   were   three,   two   in   one 
Vessel— that    briiitfs  me  to   ISSIf. 
t^.— Now.  then,  issi?       .\.-  In   H><(l   I   came  north, 
t).— On   which  coast?       .\.— On   this  coast:  a  vessel  flfted 
oiif  from  San  Francisco. 
g._\Vliaf   mouth?       .\. -Fitted  out    in   .March,   1   think. 
l^._\Vl,i,l   f(,i?       A.     For  offer  hunliuR  and  sealinti;. 
().— For  whai    cruise?       A, -For     about      eight     or     nine 
iniiuths. 


:ii 


^^m 


I 


IIIMu 


lO 


20 


3« 


40 


50 


60 


544 
(E.  r.  Miner— ("rosa.) 

g.— Where?  A. — L'p  the  coast  here,  through  tlie  lU-hrin}; 
Sea  to  the  Kusshin  coast. 

(>,— How  niHiij-  months  wonhl  that  make  jour  vessel  out? 
What  month  of  the  year  Jid  you  expect  to  start?  A. — We 
started  in  March. 

Q. — For  wliat  time  did  you  expect  to  stop?  A. — We  ex- 
pected to  stay  until  September. 

Q. — You  fitted  out  for  an  ei^ht  months'  cruise?  A.— For 
about  an  eight  months'  cruise. 

Q. — What  time  in  March  did  you  fit  out''  A. — About  the 
first  of  March. 

Q. — When  would  the  otter  huntin;;;  stop?  A. — One  ran 
hunt  otter  all  the  year. 

Q. — When  did  you  exjx'ct  the  otter  hunting  to  stop?  A. — 
Not  until  September. 

Q. — So  that  you  fitted  out  then  to  hunt  otter  from  the  first 
of  March  until  the  first  of  September?  A. — Yes,  until  about 
the  latter  j»art  <»f  September. 

Q. — What  would  you  rtM]uiTe  in  connection  with  otter  hunt- 
ing? What  sort  of  boats?  A. — We  used  then  2:\  foot 
boats. 

Q.— What  width?  A.— About  five  feet  and  a  half;  about 
the  same  width  they  have  now. 

Q.— What  cost?  .v.— The  otter  boats  then,  1  think,  cost 
»115  or  ^120. 

Q. — What  had  you  in  the  way  t»f  weapons?  A. — RifleH 
altogether. 

Q. — On  that  eccaf^ion  how  many  rifles  had  you?       A. —  I 
had  one  rifle  of  my  own  and  usually  one  of  the  ship's. 
Q. — IIow  many  had  the  shij)?      A. — I  couldn't  say. 
Q. — Flow  many  hunters  had  you?      A. — There  were  three. 
Q. — Were  these  otter  hunters?  A. — Otter  hnnter8;yes,  sir. 
Q.— Now  this  was  in  ISSl.  was  it  not?      A.— 188(> 
Q.— Take  1881.       You  ari'  sure  this  was  188t)?      A.— Yes, 
sir. 

Q. — That  was  the  first  trip  np  the  const?  A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q. — You  went  to  t!ie  Kurile  Islands  the  first  trip?      A. — 
I88t)  I  went  to  tiie  Kurile  Islands  the  first  trip. 

Q.— When  was  vour  first  trip  north  here?  A.— That  won 
in  1881). 

Q. — Then  in  1881  you  went  again?      A. — Y«'S,  sir. 
(J. — To  the  sam    place?      A. — Very  much  the  same  place 
Q. — Did  you  ^vt  seals  on  b(»th  occasions?      A. — Yes,  sir 
Q. — Do  you  know  the  feeding  grtmnds  around  the  Kurile 
Ishnids  for  sealing?      A.--T{iglit  otT  the  coast. 

Q. — .\bout  wliei-e  v<>uld  (lie  fci'ding  grounds  be  off  the  Kn 
rile  Islands?  A. — Tliey  resemble  the  feeding  grounds  on 
this  coast   ver,\  ninrh. 

Q.^IIow  do  you  know  them?  A. — .\(cording  to  where 
you  find  tlie  fish.       Squids  i.**  one  of  the  principal  fe(  as. 

Q. — Do  v':;:  look  for  rlie  S(|uid,  or  for  the  place  on  the  chart? 
A  — Xo.  sir;  I  never  look  at  a  ciiart  to  (ind  the  seals. 

Q. — I  am  speaking  of  (lie  Kiii'ile  Islands;  where  are  the 
fi'((ling  rounds  iliere?  .\. — Fiom  nl)out,  way,  II)  oi'  l.T  to  -0(1 
miles  off  shore. 

Q. — Do  you  go  liy  ilie  'Imii  to  iliese  feeding  grounds?  .\. 
— \o,  sir;  I  had  nothing  to  do  with  that. 

(i.— I  am  siK'iikini:  of  the  vessel?       A.— Yes,  sir. 
Q. — Did  you  steer  for  those  places  on  Itoth  occasions?     .V. 
— Xo;  when   we  got    (here   we  steered   right   for  the  islands. 
We  were  then  looking  tor  oder  more  than  seals. 

t^.  -  Wlia(  is  (he  dilTereiiee  in  looking  for  <>t(ei   from  look 
ing  for  seals?       .\.     The  o(ter  feed  ejoser  avouiid  the  rocks. 
Q.— Then  you  have  ^;o(  to  j^d  near  shore  for  tliem?      \  — 
Yes,  sir. 


10 


20 


545 
(K.  r.  MiiHT — CnisH.) 

<i. — What  (liislanio  away  would  yon  look  for  the  houIbT  A. 
— Would  look  for  tlicni  from  15  miles  up  to  150  off  shore. 

Q.--What  did  yon  look  for  on  thosi'  occasitms  at  (he  Kurile 
Islands?      A. — Wo  hunted  for  ottei'. 

(J. — Let  me  make  m.vself  understood.  You  no  to  different 
Itlaees  for  otter,  jou  tell  nu* — the  roeks,  for  inslanee.  That 
is  not  where  you  jfo  for  seals?  A. — It  was  on  that  oceasion, 
heeause  we  intended  (o  j;et  our  seals  there  from  the  roeks. 
There  were  some  isolated  rookeries  there. 

Q. — You  went  to  take  them  on  the  land?      A. — No,  sir. 

(J. — Afiainst  the  law?  A. — .No.  sir,  as  1  underst<.i>d  we  ha<i 
no  fishiuK  treaty  then  v  ilii  Jaiian. 

Q — Wiien  did  you  see  these  feedinf;  grounds  over  there? 
A. — W'liich  do  you  mean? 

ii. — The  fjrounds  you  told  me  where  the  squid  were?  \Vhen 
ilid  you  discover  tiu'm?  A. — It  was  nothing  to  he  diseov- 
cred. 

{}. — Well  known?       .\. — Yes,  sir. 

i}. — And  did  you  >j;o  there  on  either  occasion  to  look  for 
seals?      \. — W\'  went  on  the  occasion  I  am  tellin;;  vou. 

<^— ISSl?       A.- -Yes.  sir. 

Q.— And  ISHII?      .\.— Yes.  sir. 

ly — l)i<l  you  net  any  seals  either  time  in  those  |ila((M? 
A. — In  'HO  we  n<'<  only  a  very  few  seals.  In  'SI  we  {jot — I 
couldn't  say  now,  but  our  voyape  then  I  think  wi'.s  about 
■1110  seals. 

ii.—\n  1SS2  what  did  you  do?  .\.— In  1SS2  I  .sailed  out 
30  tif  Yokohama. 

(2. — .\nd  for  what  {j''""'"!*'?       A. — For  tlu>  Kurile  Islands. 

Q. — The  same  f;<"oundB?       .\. — Yes.  sir,  the  same  ni'"unds. 

Q. — Hunted  the  same  t;'''""><l^?       A. — Yes,  sli". 

{]. — What  did  you  do  the  ne.xt  ycai?  .\. — Sailed  over  the 
same  grounds  ajjcain. 

t^. — With  the  same  object  of  huniinn  otter?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q.— That    was  1SS:{?       A.— Yes.  sir, 

(J.— What  about  1SS4?  A.— In  18«4  I  made  (uie  tri]» 
'|0  ihroiinh  the  .lai)an  Sea   looking  for  a   su|>pi)sed  island. 

(2. — You  were  looking  for  an  ishind  that  year?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

t^. — In  ISS.'i  wliat  wei'e  you  doiiif:?  .^. — I  was  master 
llieii  of  the  "I'etielojie." 

(i. — You  tilted  liei"  out   where?       A. — In  Yokohama. 

i]. — F<u'    what     voyage?       .\. — For  a    voyage  north    otter 

lnintiii<;. 

il. —  How  many  numths?  .\. — Tiie  voyages  Ihei'e  wei'c 
nhont  si.x  monihs;  si.\  or  seven. 

t^. — You  tilled  ()u(  for  a  si.x  months'  voyage  olter  hiint- 
iiiy:?      .\. — Yes,  sir. 

il — Witli  the  usual  otter  hiiiiliuj;  (Mitlit?       .\. — ^'es,  sir. 

<i. — How  many  lilies  had  y<iu?  .\. — Wr  had  aiioul  two 
titles  apiece;  si.\  ov  seven  ritles.       We  had  one  spare  one. 

ii. —  How  many  n"">*''  •^- — H'"!  '•'"'  ^1'"'  K""  to  my  re 
iiiUectiou  aboard,  my  own. 

g.— That  was  in  I'ss.".?       A.— ISS."). 

ti. — You  were  not  then  outtiltinn  for  sc;il  hunting  at  all? 
A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — When  did  you  tiisl  oiiltit  for  seals?  .\. — Oiittllted  for 
si'iil  huuliii^,  (he  way  we  <l«)  now.  in  "ST. 

<i.--\Vhal  do  you  mean  by  the  way  we  do  now?  .V. — 
lillinn  otit  entirely  for  srjils. 

♦i. — "N'ou  ilid  not  pretend  to  be  etpiipped  for  seal  hunting 
in  IXS."»,  did  you?  .\.  -Well,  we  expected,  as  I  tell  ,\ou,  to 
find  isolated  rookeries. 

<i.     IMd  von  do  any  other  seal  hunting  at   sea?       .\. — Not 
scid  hnnliut;  "t   ^^ea. 
;J5 


50 


r^i 


Jl'!!!'!!!H!' 


UVv 


iK.  I'.  Miiitr — <'ioHH.j 

Q. — In  lMS(i  wlint  did  you  do?      A. — I  luad*'  tlu'  miuuc  trip. 

Q. — From  Vokohaiua?  A.— Yi's,  but  i-ndod  up  in  \i(- 
loiia. 

y.— WluTc  did  you  tit  out   in  IH8(>?       A.— Yokohama. 

Q. — What  voya(,'c?      A. — Tin*  same  voyajjc  uoitli. 

il. — Tlmt  was  not  for  hnntinfj  seals  at  sea?      A. — No.  sir. 

tj.— In  18H7  wliat  did  you  do?      A.— In  '87  I  fitted  out  in 
Viitoria. 
"-"       ti. — For  seal  hui  liuR  only?      A. — No.  sir. 

Q, — No  prcjiaration  for  otters?      A. — No.  sir. 

Q.— What  monili  did  you  fit  out?  A.— I  titted  out  in  Feb 
luary. 

Q. — For  how  lonj;  a  cruise?  A. — 1  expected  to  make  about 
an  eifjht  or  nine  months'  cruise. 

(J. — Is  that  the  usmil  length  for  which  you  til  out  seal 
huntinfi?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

(2.- -Is  that  the  usual  month  you  tit  out?      A. — I  have  tit 
ted  out  in  Decemliei',  -January  and  Feluuary. 
"°       Q.— ^Vhen  y(»u  s[>eak  of  the  nine   months'   'ruise,   is  it   in 
March  you  usually  til  out?      A. — No,  sii'.  we  usually  p-t  in 
by  0<'t<)b<'i'  anyway. 

'q.— At  any  iate,  in  this  year.  1887  you  titted  out  for  tiial 
jieriod?       A. — Yes.  I  titted  out  in  February. 

Q.— And  started?  A.— Started.  I  think,  about  the  middle 
of  February. 

Q. — \Yho  was  the  owner  of  the  "IV  nelojie?"  A. — .Mr. 
tlray. 

(■I. — Where  did  he  reside?       A. — In  Yokohama. 
3^       Q. — Where  did  you  get    your    instructions    in    re>j;ard    to 
himtinji?      A. — It  was  understood  when  I  left  Yokohama  I 
was  to  come  in  here. 

ii. — And  do  what?      A. — (Jo  hunting  .seals. 

ii. — From  Victoria?       A. — From   Vi'toria. 

Q. — And  were  you  told  where  to  hunt?      .V. — No.  sir. 

(i. — ^'ou  were  to  tit  out  here  for  seal  hunting?  A. — Yes. 
sir. 

(i.— That   was  in  18S7?       A.— ■S7. 

*-i. — Had  you  titted  out  practically  at    Yokohama?       A.-- 
40   No.  sir;  only  for  18StJ  and  1887. 

(i. — Took  no  part  (tf  the  outtit  there?       .\. — No.  sir. 

(^ — With  whom  did  you  deal  in  outfitting  at  this  jtort? 
AVho  was  llie  agent  for  Mr.  tJray?  .\. — He  d'd  not  at  tirsi 
have  an  agent.  1  was  agent  tirst.  Afterwar<ls  I  think  .Mr. 
JlosH  was  agent. 

Q. — Who  (lid  you  lonsult  when  you  came  here  in  1887?  A. 
—  I  consulted  Mr.  Lubbe  and  Mr.  .Moss. 

(■l. — IJefore  you   came  here  in  March,   1887,  did  you  know 
\'ictoria    well?        Had   you    resided    here   for   any   length   of 
?'-*   time?       .\.— 1  Had  not   resided  here.       I  had  been  here. 

Q. — ^VheIl  had  you  been  h»M'e?       A.— 1  was  here  in   1881 

(2. --.lust    touching  at   the  jiort?       .\. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  were  a  comparative  stianger  in  1887  to  the  bus! 
ness  men  here?       .\. — Yes.  sii\ 

Q. — And  with  the  prices  of  goods  here?       .\. — \'('s.  sir. 

Q. — Tou  had  no  o( casion  to  buy  ])rovisions  or  outfits  be 
fore  (8S7  in  N'irtoria?       .V. — No,  sir. 

Q. — No  dealings  with  vessels:  knew  nothing  of  llu'  place? 
Co   Asa  sirangi'f.  whom  did  you  consult  in  tnaUing  your  arrange 
nieiits?       .\. —  1  Ihiiik  Mr.  l.ubbe  is  the  man  I  tonsulled  more 
than  anybody  else. 

Q. — He   lives   here  now?        .v.-  N'es.   sir. 

Q. — Row  long  did  yo+i  stay  out  on  that  cruise?  \. — I  g"! 
back  some  time  in  Sepn-niln'r. 

Q.  Wlni'c  did  yon  go'  .V. —  I  went  on  liie  coast  in  the 
upring.  and  tho.i   into  Mehriiig  Sen  in   tie-  summer, 


547 
<,K.  I'.  Miner — Cross.) 

Q. — Vv'lu'n  (lid  you  iiach  Itehriii^;  Sea?  A. — I  reached 
Uehring  t'eu  in  July. 

Q.— What  time  in  July?  A.— Hetween  the  5th  and  l(>th. 
1  think;  if  my  memory  serves  me  rif-'ht,  some  time  tlie  tlrHt 
part  of  JuTy. 

Q. — What  number  of  eanoes  had  you — boats?  A. — Six 
Itoats  altogether;  five  larfre  boats  and  a  stern  boat. 
10  Q- — Wluit  course  were  you  makinjj  when  yon  taitered  the 
Sea;  what  wa.s  your  din-ction  or  destinaticm?  A. — I  en- 
tered the  Sea  from  some  of  the  western  passages,  the  Four 
Mountain  Pass. 

Q. — Where  did  you  propose  makinfj  for — what  point  in  tlur 
Sea?  A. — Somewhere  between  Ounalaska  and  tlie  Priby- 
loff  Islands. 

Q. — IJy  tlie  time  you  got  to  the  Pass  I  sui)pose  you  had 
more  definite  knowledge  as  to  where  you  could  go?      A. — 1 
was  going  to  look  unlil  I  found  the  seals. 
20       Q. — Well,  you  had  no  idea  of  stopping  your  ship  anywliere? 
A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — You  wero  going  to  sail  until  you  found  seals?  A. — 
T'ntil  1  found  seals. 

Q. — What  is  your  course  usually?  A. — The  usual  course 
is  through  the  T'niniak  Pass. 

Q. —  .\fter  you  get  into  the  Pass  you  do  not  go  straight 
ahead,  do  you?      What  do  jou  make  for?      A. — After  get- 
ting through  the  Pass? 
Q. — Yes.       A. — We  then  begin  cruising  about  the  Sea. 
30      Q. — Did  you  <-ver  hear  of  any  fe('ding  grounds  in  Behring 
Sea?      A.— No,  sir. 

Q. — Yon  never  lieard  of  any  i)articularly  good  grounds  for 
catching  seals  in  Hehring  Sea?  A. — I  have  heard  of  good 
grounds,  or  of  good  citclies  having  be<'n  made  entirely  around 
tile  islands  in  all  directions  from  them. 
Q. — Good  sealing  rounds?  A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q. — l>o  yon  know  of  any  places  similar  to  those  described 
over  to  the  Kurile  Islands?       A. — Feeuui;;  grounds? 

Q. — Yes.       A. — I  didn't   undertake  to  des(ril)e  any   tliere. 
40       Q. — Did  you  ever  in(|uirc  for  these?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Did  it  ever  strike  yon  as  peculiar  that  there  should  be 
no  s(|uid  grounds  on  one  side  of  the  Pacitic,  and  an  absence  of 
similar  feeding  grounds  while  you   were  in  I'.ehnng   Sea  in 
1SS7?    A. — I  didn't  see  any  al)sence  of  good  feeding  rounds. 
Q.— You  think  it  all  good  feeding  rounds?       A. — Yes,  sir. 
(J.— Do  you  know  the  Fair  Weather  grounds?      .\. — Yes, 
sir. 
Q.— Thev  are  outside  the  Sea?      A. — Yes.  sir. 
Q.— What  do  you  know  about  them?      A,— I  have  hunted 
5*^  there  a  great  deal. 

Q. — flave  they  a  cood  name?  A. — Yes,  sir. 
(}.— That  is  fur  the  period  lief<n'e  the  seals  readied  the  Sea? 
A. — Tliey  have  ;\  good  name  for  sealing,  ("ijiecially  on  account 
of  the  weather. 

(i.— Is  thriv  any  ntlier  rea.soii   than   the   weather?       .\.— 
Xot  that  1  know  of. 

Q._X,.V(.r  heard  anything  about  the  feeding  ground  then? 
A.— Th,>  feedin-  ground  there  is  the  same. 
^'"       (}.-   Have  you  heard,  as  a  matter  of  fad.  that  tliat   was  an 
extra  t  tod  I'islriig  ground?       A.— No,  sir,  I  liaveii't. 

Q._l, ,  you  kiiow  anything  about  the  soundings  in  tlie  Sea? 
A.— Yes,   lir,  what  my  chart  tells  me. 

(^.—Whi  .    (),.,'asi(,ii  have  von  had  for  carefully  examining 
tile  soiiiuliiir-*,  say  oi.lside  of  the  islands  irrespective  of  navi- 
gation purjioses?       .\. — Nmie  at  all. 
(J.— Had  no  occasion?       .\.— Had  no  occasion. 


^f 


fflpw 


'll<lj,.l, 


548 

^K.  1'.  Mini'i- — CroHB.j 

Q. — You  iK'ver  heui-d  of  its  being  doiu-  hy  any  ouo?  A.— 
No,  Hir. 

Q.— You  k'ft  tlie  Wt'U  wluit  tiuu'  In  l>Hf<7?  A.— 1  It'ft  tlio 
Sea  Home  time  in  August. 

Q.— What  tiuu?  A.— It  was  along  about  tlu*  niiddli-  of 
AugUHt. 

(i. — 1)(»  yon  know  tlic  date  within  a  wt'i'ii?     A. — It  would 
10    suri'ly  be  within  a  week  if  it  was  in  tlu'  iiiiddk'  «»f  August. 

(i.— Who  has  the  log?  A. — I  haven't  the  log;  it  luis  been 
lost  or  destroyed. 

t^. — Have  you  any  jtapers  that  will  refresh  your  memory? 
in  legai'd  to  your  evidenee  given  to  day?  A. — N»)thiug  that 
I  know  of. 

Q. — You  speak  entirely  from  recollection  of  these  years? 
A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — And  you  think  you  left  the  sea  the  middle  of  Augiist, 

1SM7?      A. — I  know  it  must  have  been  about  that  time.       I 

20   know  it   was  about  the  same  time  s(une  vessel   was  seized. 

I  cannot  remember  now  which  vessel.      And  as  soon  as  I  got 

the  news  I  went  to  the  westward, 

t^. — Where  did  you  hear  the  cutters  w»'re  at  that  lime? 
A. — I  heard  that  they  were  seizing  not  far  from  where  I 
was. 

Q. — So  you  got  away  as  far  as  you  could  get?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

ii. — How  far  diil  you  get  away  before  you  sealed?       A. — 
I  didn't  seal  anv  more  at  all;  we  didn't  t-top  the  vessel  after 
30   that. 

Q. — Could  you  show  me  on  the  chart,  captain,  about  where 
you  were  when  yon  got  the  news  of  the  seizures?  A. — (Rx 
amining)  I  was  sailing  about  here  (indicating)  from  'M)  to  70 
miles  frcMu   iSogoslot.   Hogoslof  Itearing  south  southeast. 

Q. — .\nd  then  you  went  fiom  there,  you  say?  A. — From 
there  I  went  directly  west,  away  out  here  as  far  as  Attn. 

Q. — And  came  out  in  that  way?  (indicating)  A. — Yes. 
sir. 

Q. — Avoiding  the  j»ass  by  which  you  came  in?       A. — Yes. 
"^      sir. 

Q. — For  purposes  of  safety,  is  that  right?  .\. — I  avoided 
the  ])ass;  I  went  to  the  westward  to  try  and  continue  my 
sealing. 

Q. — But  you  did  not  ijo  back  the  old  way  for  an  obvious 
reason?       .\. — Yes,  sir. 

t^ — llow  many  seals  did  you  take  after  you  started  from 
that  jtosition  which  you  gave  me  on  the  chart,  that  season? 
.\. — I  (hm't  remenilier  of  taking  a  seal;  I  might  have  got  two 
CO   <"■  three,  but   I  don't   reiiu'Uiber. 

<.}. — l>id  you  lowt'r  the  boats?  A. — No,  sir,  the  boats  were 
never  lowered. 

Q. — Did  you  search?  A. — We  were  looking  from  the  vis- 
sel.  that  is  nil. 

Q. — You  did  not  see  any  seal  there?  \. — Not  to  amount 
to  anything. 

*.l — Did  yen  ever  seal  there  again?  A. — Not  by  Attn. 
Have  sealed  In  Kussian  waters. 
qq  (i. — Now.  fr(Mn  what  you  have  already  t(dd  me  captain.  I 
take  it  that  your  knowledge  of  these  shipyards  in  San  Fran 
cisi-o  consists  chietly  in  regard  to  their  existence?  A. —  I 
'aUow  them,  and  I — 

i-i. — Yon  have  not   worked  in  them?       \. — No,  sii-. 

Q. — Your  business  n<'ver  called  you  there?  \. — I  called 
on  the  owners. 

ii. —  You  have  not  worked  in  tliese  shipyards?  A. — No, 
sir. 


549 


i    '    :•*] 


lO 


A. — I    wiiH  lUtinn  oui 

A. — Doiiift  nolliiiifj;. 

A. — I  knew  llir 


20 


iK.  1*.  Miner — <  nms.) 

Q. — Wlu'ii  yoii  Kiid  in  IH87  yon  did  n<il  know  of  any  Hliip- 
ytird  t'<]ui|)|M>d  foi-  bnildinf;  st'til<TN,  did  yon  «-v(>r  look  for  one 
in  Victoria?      A. — Ntt. 

Q, — Yon  wero  a  Htraiint-r  wiicn  yon  cainic,  and  liow  long 
did  yon  remain  in  tliiH  p(»rt  in  1HH7?  A. — 1  reinained  al»onl 
(iirec  niuntliH. 

Q. — What  were  yon  doinj;  tlien? 
my  vpHsel. 
Q. — Wliat  were  yon  doinj;  tlien? 
(). — Did  y<ni  know  the  "Htar  Sliipyard?" 
"Star"  ways  for  lianlin^  out  a  veswel. 

Q. — Yon  knew  timt  Hliips  liad  lun-n  hnilt  liere.  I  HnpiMme? 
A. — I  had  not  known  it  tlien. 

(). — Yon  did  not  mean  to  intinuite  lliat  sliijtK  conld  not  lie 
liuilt  in  Britisli  Colnmbia  in  1S87?      A. — Xo,  sir. 
(}. — Nor  that  Hliijis  liad  n(»t  been  l»nil(?      A. — Xo.  my. 
ti. — Nor  Hhips  snitahle  for  Healing?       A. — No,  sir. 
(I. — So  tliat  wlu'n  yon  said  yon  knew  of  no  sliipyard  bnild- 
ing  sealers  yon  nu'ant  that  yon  had  no  knowledg*'    of    the 
place  at  all?       A. — I   had  had  knowledge  of  the  place  tluMi 
for  two  dilferent  times,  three  or  fonr  months  each. 

Q. — Unt  yon  do  not  profess  that  at  that  time  yon  had  any 
reasonable  knowledg(>  of  the  city  of  \'ictoria.  or  the  varions 
industries  of  the  place,  or  what  they  could  do  in  connection 
with  shipping?  A. — 1  think  six  months'  residence  here  was 
iiuite  ample. 
Q. — What  six  mcmths  had  you  had?  A. — Three  months 
0  or  more  in  1H8(!  and  three  months  in  1M87. 

Q. — Three  months  in  i88(»  and  three  in  1887,  enabled  you 
to  speak  positively  as  to  what  this  j)lace  could  do  in  the  way 
of  building  ships?      A. — I  think  so. 

Q. — Will  yon  swear  that  you  were  at  that  time  fully  in 
formed  as  to  the  capa<ity  of  this  place  for  shijt  building,  and 
of  the  facilities  for  ship  bnildng?      A. — No,  I  can't. 

(j. — Will  yon  undertake  \»  say  that  there  were  not  ships 
being  built  in  188(!  and  18M7  in  the  port  of  Victoria?  A. — 
1  can't  remember  seeing  one. 

(I. — Will  you  undertake  to  say  on  your  oalh  that  there  was 
nov  a  ship  on  the  sto<'ks  in  \'ict<M'ia  being  built?  A. — No, 
sir. 

Q. — And  will  you  undertake  to  say  on  your  oalh  that  there 
was  not  a  shi|>  on  tlie  slocks  in  the  course  of  construction  in 
1887?      A.— No,  sir. 

(I. — Then  our  knowledge  was  not  vej-y  great  as  to  -vhal 
lliis  (own  could  or  could  not  do  in  188*]  or  1887?  A. — I  had 
no  occasion  to  make  inquiries. 

Q. — Now  in  1880,  in  1887,  you  pretend  to  be  able  to  s;\v  on 
your  oath  what  vessels  were  engaged  in  sealing  either  froi-. 
tile  jiort  of  San  Francisco  or  from  the  port  of  N'ictoria  or 
fnun  the  Sound?  A. — By  hearing  them  named  over  1  can. 
but  I  couldn't  without  the  assistance  of  some  one  naming 
them.  If  there  was  a  list  of  vessels  called  I  conld  pick  every 
one  out  that  was  engaged  in  sealing. 

it — Where  did  you  ac(]uire  that  knowledge?  A. — From 
being  amongst  the  sealeis. 
(i.— In  what  year?  A.— In  188(t  and  1887. 
Q. — .\nd  in  I88()  vou  were  snfliciently  among  the  sealers 
sailing  from  San  Francisco  and  the  \m\'X  of  Victoria  to  stale 
on  your  oath  today  what  vessels  were  out  or  what  v<ssels 
•vere  not  out,  if  the  total  list  is  read  out  to  you?  A. — I  am 
familiar  enough;  yes,  sir. 

Q. — Were  yon  in  comi)any  with  them?  .\. — In  port;  yea. 
sir. 

Q. — How  long  wero  vou  in  company  with  them?  l>id 
you  start  out  to  sea   with  them?  A.— In   1887. 


-+0 


r,o 


!l  1  ll"||i!!'iM" 


550 


•ll'l,. 


10 


20 


30 


iK.  I'.  Miner — t'loHH.) 

(J. — Were  voii  ill  coiiipany  wi(h  tin-  sciiHiig  Heot  of  Wnn 
FniiiriHco  in   1SS(i?       A. — No,  sir. 

(2. — Were  yon  in  tonipiiny  wiHi  ^\\v  st'iilin^j  llcfl  of  N'ii'loriu 
in  lHM(i?      A*.— Ill  i»off  only. 

().— In  lilt'  \Mvt  of  Vlctorin?       A.— Y«'h,  sir. 

ii. — Stalled  out  with  them?  .\, — Saw  them  on  their  re- 
turn. 

Q. — In  what  month?  A. — In  Septemln'r,  and  from  then 
on. 

Q.— In  Sejttemlter.   ISStJ?       A.— Yes,  sir. 

(i. — You  are  positive  of  the  year?       A. — Of  the  year. 

i]. — And  the  month?      A.— No,  in  October. 

Q- — Yon  arrived  in  Oetoher.  You  saw  the  sealinjj:  H<'<'l  of 
Viclorhi  in  the  ])ort  of  N'ictoria?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— In  the  montli  of  Octolter,  1SS(!;  you  swear  to  llial?  A. 
— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — I'o.sitively?      A. — Ye»,  sir. 

().— Yon  eoniiled  (hem  all  over?  A.— No,  I  did  not.  I 
met  the  men  from  them. 

Q— Where  were  they  lyinj;?  A.— They  were  lyiiif,'  iu  the 
liarbor. 

Q.— \Yhat  liarlior?      A.— Here,  l»y  the  customs  liouso. 

^i— Will  yon  swear  that  they  were  lyinp;  by  the  customs 
house?      A. — I  swear  I  saw  some  lyin^  there. 

Q. — Will  you  swear  there  were  tiiree  lying  there?  A.— I 
think  there  were. 

Q- — Now  t«'ll  me  how  many  of  the  scaling  tleet  in  October, 
1HS(!.  yon  examined?      A.— I  examined  none. 

Q. — How  long  did  you  remain  in  the  jiort  of  Victoria  In 
October?  A. — I  remaiii(>d  there,  with  the  exception  of  may 
be  11  little  trij)  away  of  a  couple  of  weeks,  until  I  sailed  tlie 
following  February. 

Q. — You  had  no  business  at  that  time  that  made  it  neces 
sary  or  useful  for  you  to  be  familiar  with  all  these  ships?  A. 
— I  became  familiar  with  the  masters  and  men  employed  on 
them. 

Q. — Can  you  give  me  the  names  of  all  the  masters  that 
you  met  in  this  port  in  ISSO  coiinectod  with  sealing  vessels? 
A. — I  cannot  give  you  the  names  of  all  of  them. 

Q. — H  I  read  them  tiver  to  you  would  you  know  them  all 
so  that  you  could  swear  to  them?      A. — 1  think  I  would. 

Q. — Would  you  swear  you  would?  Arc  you  as  certaifi  of 
the  names  of  the  masters  as  you  are  of  the  vessels?  A. — 
No,  sir. 

Q. — And  yet  you  met  the  masters  and  did  not  meet  the 
vessels  at   sea?       A. — Yes.  sir 

Q. — So  that  when  you  speak  of  these  vessels  being  in  port 
^°  and  engaged  in  sealing  you  rely  now,  as  1  under.>i'^nii(l  yon.  on 
what  the  cajttains  told  yon?      A. — 1  relied  on — 

Q. — Are  you,  or  are  you  not.  relying  on  what  the  cajttains 
told  you  in  that  October,  lS8(i?  A. — As  to  their  being  seal- 
ers? 

Q. — Yes.  A. — Yes.  sir.  and  also  the  talk  in  town.  Every 
sealer  was  w«'ll  known. 

Q. — And  from  that  talk  you  are  speaking  in  regard  to  those 
vessels  that  were  eiigagetl  in  sealing  that  year?  A. — Yes. 
sir. 

Q— And  the  pame  thing  in  regard  to  San  Francisco?  A. 
— I  met  masters  of  the  vessels  on(>  time  and  another. 

Q.-  How  many  did  you  meet  in  ISSO?  A.— I  couldn't  tell 
you  that. 

Q. — So  that  you  rc'iuire  to  have  the  names  of  the  vessels 
suggested  to  you  before  answoi'ing  mors'  definitely  in  regard 
to  what  '  essels  were  engaged  in  sealing':  A. — All  of  tlieni; 
yes,  sir. 


40 


60 


551 


111 


10 


20 


30 


40 


io 


6o 


(K.  i'.  MiiM'i  — rioHK.) 

Q. — Now  .voii  tli>  iH'l  prclciid,  <lo  von.  <."iii)liiiii,  wlu-n  voii  go 
ftvcr  tluU  lint  to  Mpciik  of  tlicMc  vcsscIm  in  rcpir<i  to  anylhiuK 
t'lHo  than  flint  tlicy  were  ciifrnncd  in  »cnlinn  ho  far  lis  yon 
liavc  hoard?      A. — No,  hIi-. 

Q. — Vou  know  nothing  about  the  actnal  rondition  of  them? 
A. — No,  Hir,  I  do  not. 

Q.— Nor  the  unc  fliat  wan  artnallv  nnidc.  wh<  thcr  coanting 
and  Healing,  or  coaHting  alont"?  A. —  No,  Hir.  I  know  that 
some  of  th«'ni  witc  running  to  the  stations  on  the  wcHt  coaHt. 

Q — For  all  you  know,  rajitain,  in  regard  to  the  liHt  that 
wan  read  to  you  to-day.  Hoine  of  tlume  veHHclH  may  not  have 
been  Healing  at  all — the  vesHelM  that  Mi'.  DickiiiHon  mentioned 
to  you?      A. — Some  of  them  I  did  not  know.       I  stated  so. 

Q. — I  suppoHe  you  do  not  contend  that  it  is  ueressary  to 
have  a  shipyard  like  White's,  Turnei's  and  Dixon's  to  build  a 
sealer?  A. — No.  sir.  you  ran  build  a  sealer  on  the  beaeh 
wherever  you  can  get  the  timber. 

{}. — Ah  a  matter  of  fact,  very  good  sealers  have  been  bull', 
on  the  beach?       .\. — Yes.  sir. 

i.1 — What  do  you  mean  by  a  vessel  adapted  to  sealing"' 
A. — My  a  vessel  adapted  to  sealing  I  mean  one  that  is  a  mod- 
erately fair  sailer,  a  good  sea  boat,  and  of  attout  the  right 
si/.e  to  be  comfortable  according  to  the  crew  you  wish  to 
take.  I  should  call  nothing  comfortable  for  sealing  under 
(».")  tons,  or  nothing  larger  than  ILT)  tons. 

(^ — Hut  would  you  undeitake  to  say  in  giving  your  opin- 
ion, from  the  box.  that  a  veswl  tinder  ♦!"»  tons  was  not  adapt 
cd  for  sealing  '      A. — No.  sir.  I  would  not. 

Q. — Vou  would  prefer  for  comfort  a  vessel  of  t!5  tons? 
A. — Not  lower. 

(i. — Ah  a  matter  of  fact  some  successful  sealers  have  been 
under  (15  t<ms,  have  they  not?      A. — I  think  so. 

(i. — Vou  do  not  n<'ed  a  regular  racer  for  a  good  sealing 
boat,  I  suppose?      A. — No,  I  think  not. 

Q. — Will  you  tell  me  why  a  vessel  over  125  tons  would  not 
be  adapted  for  sealing,  in  your  opinion?  A — Hecause  she 
would  be  rather  heavy  to  handle,  hard  on  the  gear,  and  hard- 
er on  the  crew. 

Q. — How  about  expense?  A. — That  is  what  I  say,  more 
expensive  on  the  gear. 

ti. — And  too  large  to  be  easily  handh-d?  .V. — Too  large  to 
he  easily  handled. 

Q. — Vour  ideal  is  (!5  tons,  is  it?  A. — No.  my  ideal  i« 
about  lot)  ton  vessel. 

Q. — Do  you  know  the  average  tonnage  of  vessels  tlial  have 
been  engaged  in  sealing?  A. — I  think  the  average  would  bp 
very  hard  to  strike. 

(■i. — t'onld  you  come  within  ten  tons  of  it?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Have  they  been  under  KM)  or  over?  1  think  the  aver- 
age would  be — 

(i. — A  good  deal  under?      A. — Yes.  sir,  not  very  much. 

*]. — Weil,  about  20  tons  under?      A. — Possibly. 

(i. — You  cannot  come  nearer  than  ths'*?      A. — No,  sii*. 

Q. — When  did  you  last  se«'  the  "Annie.'"  A. — 1  last  saw 
the  ".Vnnie"  in  '87. 

Q. — Where  did  you  see  her?      A. — 1  think  I  saw  her — 

Q. —  I  do  not  want  you  to  misunderstand  me.  When  you 
lannot  s])eak  positively,  tell  me  that,  and  we  will  have  it  so 
understood.  I  am  asking  you  now  to  speak  witliout  any 
iliiubt  whatever.  If  yon  cannot  speak  without  doubt,  say 
so?  A. — 1  saw  her  the  last  time  in  Drake's  Hay  in  Califor- 
nia, but  as  to  the  year  I  couldn't  say. 

<i- — Now,  the  "San  Diego."  can  you  give  me  any  positive 
information  as  to  when  you  saw  her  last?  A. — The  "San 
Diego"  I  saw  the  last  time  in  18!)4  on  the  Japanese  coast. 

ti.— Did  vou  see  lier  in  IS'tn?       .\.— No.  sir. 


IMAGE  EVALUATION 
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55« 

(K.  V.  MiiuT — Cm»8.) 

Q. — WIm'II  wiib  tlu'  tlrst  tiiiit'  you  huw  bfr?  A. — I  wiw  her 
till-  liiMl  tiiiit*.  I  lliink— 

(i. — ('«ii  .you  niv«>  iiH'  |H>Hitiv<-ly  1Im>  .vcar  wlicn  .voii  flrnt 
Hiiw  that  Hhip?  A. — I  cannot  aiw  you  the  yi-ar  p«mitivt'l.v 
that  I  tii-Ht  Haw  Iiit. 

ii. — You  in«'iitiouf«l  M'cini;  lior  In  1S!»4;  are  you  poHltlve  uh 
to  that?      A. — I  know  I  miw  her  in  '81. 

(2. — ("an  you  ^ive  me  any  other  year  in  which  you  are  posi 
'O  the  vou  Haw  her?      A. — No.  nlr,  I  cannot. 

Q.— The  "Otter?"      A.— 1  saw  the  "Otter"  first  in  "SI. 
ii. — ("an  you  jiive  nu'  ponilively  another  year?       A. — No, 
Hir.  I  cannot. 

(2.— The  "Alexander?"  A.~Tho  "Alexander"'  I  naw  in 
•S(l. 

<i. — You  are  iKmllive  of  that?  A — Positive  that  I  saw  her 
in  'HO. 

Q. — Can  you  fjlve  me  with  certainty  another  year?  A.— 
1  iiav«>  seen  her  Keveral  tinieH  hIiicc  that,  but  I  could  not  |;lve 
the  iMtHltive  year. 

Q.— The  "<Mty  ot  Han    IHeno'r       A.— The    "City    of    Pan 
l>ie>r«»"  I  Haw  in  'SM. 
Q. — Where  did  you  Hce  her?       .\. — in  Neah  Hay. 
<i. — \Vhat  month?      .\. — I  should  say  in  May. 
ti. — .\re  you  Hure  of  that?      .\. — Very  Hure  of  it. 
(). — .Are  you  Hure  it    wan  In    1MHS?       A. — Sure  if   wan  in 
1M8K 
<i.— Had  you  hihmi  the  "t'ity  of  Han  lUeKo"  before  ISHS? 
-Q  A. — Y«'H,  Hir. 

^         (i. — Where?      A. — I  have  H«'en  her  In  Han  FranciKco. 
ii. — What   month?       .\. —  I   wouldn"t   undertake  to  Hay. 
(2. — What  part  of  the  year?      A. — In  the  fall  of  the  year 
Home  time. 

<i. — You  HWear  to  that?      A. — Yen,  nlr.  I  nwear  to  that. 
Q. — M'here  did  you  nee  her,  what  jmrt  of  San  Francisc*'? 
A. — I  saw  her  at  one  of  the  wharven. 

(i. — l>o  you  know  who  were  tlu>  owners  at  that  time?  A. — 
I  think  Mr.  Handy. 
Q. — lias  he  a  wharf?      A. — Not  that  I  know  of. 
Q. — Are  you  positive  you  naw  her  lyinjj  at  a  wharf?      A.— 
Yen,  sir. 

(i. — Men  on  board  of  her?  .\. — I  sundy  was  talkinK  with 
Home  men  on  board  of  heiv 

Q. — Were  you  on  board  of  her?  A. — No,  air;  I  don't  think 
I  wan. 

il. — Where  did  you  nuH-t  tlu'  men  who  were  on  board  of  her 
with  whom  y«»u  were  talking?    .\.— I  couldn't  recolhnt  that. 
ij. — It  anioiinlH  to  this:  Some  one  told  you  she  was  in  port, 
50   that  is  all  you  mean?      .\. — No,  sir. 

Q — You  actually  saw  the  vessel?      A. — I  used  to  take  the 
wharves  In  everv  dav,  as  evt-rv  seafaring  nuiii  does, 
g.— In  18X7?      a!— Yes,  sir. 

(i. — What  niiikes  vou  nVU<:  to  say  you  saw  that  vessel  In 
1MS7?      A.— NoihinK  spi-clal. 

(J. — Can  you  tell  me  every  other  schooner  (hat  was  in  port 
at  San  Francisco  at  the  same  timt>?  A. — I  don't  think  I 
could,  every  one. 

Q. — You  had  no  more  business  with  the  "San  DieRo"  than 

to    with  the  others?      A. — Tin   e  was  a  friend  of  mine  that  was 

on  her  that  year. 

Q. — What  was  his  name?      .\.— Crews.      Fie  is  now  dead. 

(}.-  Was  he  on  the  boat  in  1SH7?      .\.— He  was  on  the  boat 

in  1MM7. 

(J.— At  the  time  she  was  in  |M»rt?  A.— When  she  came 
in  iMirt. 

Q.— >Vas  he  on  her  in  1888?  A.— I  could  not  tell  you  as 
to  that. 


40 


553 

(K.  1'.  Miiu-r— <'i-oKH.) 

Q. — What  oIluT  wnlinp  v^'hsi'In  did  you  sw  in  Han  Fran- 
dsM'o  at  that  llnu'  tliat  .v<ni  an-  |K»Hitiv«>  attoiit?  A. — Well. 
tli<*r<>  aro  ho  many  of  tlu>ni  tliat  I  cannot  t-all  (o  mind. 

Q. — .\r«'  y«»ii  iMmitive  alK>ut  IIiIh  vchkcI?  A. — Yen,  sir;  the 
"San  JoH«*"  I  know  I  Haw  tlM'n*. 

The  CommiMtriuners  then  rose. 


10 


20 


30 


40 


in 


r. ) 


OommisBionfln  nnder  the  Oonvention  of  Febnuury  8,  1896,  between 
Great  Britain  and  the  United  States  of  America. 

Ohamben  of  the  legialative  Assembly, 

At  Victoria,  December,  16,  1896. 

At  \{):'.W  a.m.  the  CouiniiHHionerH  took  their  HentH. 

The  ('ommiHHi<»ner  ou  tlie  jtart  of  tlie  I'nited  htateB: — The 
ConiniiHNionerH  are  n-ady  to  diH|Kme  of  the  quenticm  whieh 
wan  ivwrviMl  yentiTday.  Tlie  (juention  put  by  Mr.  H(»dwell 
wan  an  followH:  "Wliat  in  your  experienee  an  to  tin*  pro|»or- 
tion  (»f  HealH  whieh  are  hmt  by  hnntei-s  in  Milling?  I  m«>tin 
what  in  the  proiMtrtion  of  mmiIr  they  lone  compared  with  tlione 
tlH'y  Ket?" 

l'|Km  the  conBideration  then  t;iven  to  tliat  qucHtion  the 
t'onimlK  onera  apparently  eoncluded  at  that  time  that  they 
would  not  enter  upon  that  line  of  examination.  There  wan 
no  formal  rulini;  u|K>n  it;  but, even  if  there  had  Ihh'U  u  foniuil 
rulin{r,  in  view  of  the  fact  that  it  came  up  incidentally,  and 
wan  not  caiffnlly  conniderefl,  we  wouhl  not  fe<*l  bound  by 
it.  In  fact  I  think  I  can  nafely  nay  that  the  ( 'ommiHHionerH 
do  not  feel  themnelvcH  abmdutely  b)Min<l  by  any  ruling  which 
they  nmy  make  aH  to  which  weiiouK  doubtn  afterwardn  arlHC. 
<Viunm>l  neiKl  not  fe4>l  embarraHHe^l  by  any  HUppoHition  that 
the  < 'ommiHHionerH  are  not  willing  to  hear  HUitgeHtionH  {Ktint- 
in^  out  (hat  they  hav)>  made  errorn  or  mintakeH  in  rulini;H 
wliich  they  have  enteivd  at  any  time. 

The  rcHult  Ih,  taking;  thin  i|ueHtion  with  what  ban  npp4>nrpd 
from  the  counnel  for  the  I'nited  Staten,  including  what  wan 
rc.id  by  them  fmm  the  answer  of  the  Tnite*!  Htaten,  that  It  ih 
apparent  both  parties  have  shown  a  desin*  to  enter  utmui 
this  line  of  invest i^rat ion.  The  objections  were  raimn)  by 
tile  ('ommiHHionerH  and  not  by  the  counsel.  Thin,  however, 
does  not  conclud<>  the  nnitter,  an  it  Ih  fre<|u«>ntly  the  ri^ht 
and  duly  of  a  judi«-ial  tribunal  to  interfere  when,  tnmi  itn 
own  stand|Kiint,  it  hcch  that  an  incidental  isniie  which  conn 
Kcl  deHii-«>  to  raine  Ih  liabU>  to  renult  in  protracted  InvcnliKa- 
tton,  and  with  a  practical  renult  very  doubtful,  and  perhnpH 
whctlly  immaterial.  The  t'ommlHHioners  have  carefully  re- 
conHidi-nnl  thin  matter,  and  have  come  to  a  concluHltm  which 
tla-y  think  will  pr«»t«'ct  every  rijjhl  which  can  be  cInimiMl  on 
either  nide.  and  which  enalden  them  to  practically  control 
this  line  of  InveHtiKation.  which  they  re^rard  at  the  mont  nf 
iiaviuK  a  very  remote  bearing  on  the  cane.  The  tpieHtion 
put  by  Mr.  IttNlwell  relaten,  not  to  any  theory,  but  to  the 
pructical  obHcrvatiiUi  of  a  person  enKa|;ed  in  the  huHlneRM  of 
catching  nealn — bin  own  experience.  .\n  examination  of  the 
.\nierican  ri'prlnl  of  the  jroceiMlInK^  at  Paris  fortiflcH  what 
the  ConimlHHionerH  have  a  riftht  t«»  ai^sume  an  an  historical 
bict,  that  thiH  <|ueHtion  wan  one  which  wan  sharply  and  earn- 
estly contested  by  both  (loveniments  and  cn)>able  of  inv«dv- 
inu  an  amount  of  proof  almost  unlimited.  Therefore  the 
( 'oniniissioners.  while  dis]K)sed  to  allow  this  line  of  pro«if  to 


M 


:^ii! 


.ii> 
mv' 


SS4 

(K.  V.  MiiuT— CnwH.) 

bo  ojK'ni'd  up.  fei'l  i1  ne^'KHiirv  to  i-oHtrirt  iiiid  limit  it  td  tho 
character  of  ovidpnc«>  HiiKRVHttHl  bv  the  qiicHtioii  put  by  Mr. 
Kodwell,  that  is  to  wiy,  tlw'.v  liiuit  it  to  tiic  practicnl  ex 
perience  of  witnoNseH  describing  what  haH  occurred  in  their 
own  experience.  They  aiKo  limit  tlie  number  of  witneHHCH, 
to  allow  not  more  than  six  to  b<'  <'alled  on  the  question  on 
either  side. 

lo  The  Commissioners  also  present  to  citunsel  an  alternative 
which  they  have  no  power  to  direct  couns«>l  to  accept,  and 
which,  therefore,  cannot  be  made  an  order  by  the  romniis- 
Bioners  unless  counsel  agree  to  it.  The  alternative  is.  tliar 
instead  of  calling  witnesses  here,  coii.isel  on  either  sid«>.  if 
they  agree,  may  put  in  references  to  the  American  reprint 
covering  this  matter,  doing  this  by  mere  r«'ference.  That 
will  enable  counsel  on  either  side  to  put  in.  f(»r  example,  not 
only  what  is  found  in  the  cas«'  of  the  Oovernment  which  the 
counsel  n>presents,  but  what  is  f(Mind  in  the  case  of  the  other 

20  Oovernment,  or  in  the  report  of  the  connnission  whi«'li  ac 
companies  those  cases.  That  is  to  say.  Mr.  IMckinson.  on 
his  side,  could  put  in,  by  reference,  anything  which  appears 
touching  this  matter  in  the  American  reprint,  all  the  vol 
umes  included,  and  Mr.  I'et«'rs.  on  the  other  side,  could  put 
in  anything  which  appears  in  all  the  volumes  touching  the 
same  matter.  That  would  be  a  matter  for  agreement  be 
tween  counsel.  We  are  not  prepared,  as  suggested  by  my 
learned  associate,  to  say  absolutely  that  the  number  of  wit- 
nesses shall  b«'  six.       That  is  merely  what  occurred  to  us 

30   would  be  a  sufficient  numlM'r.       It  should,  however,  be  limit 
ed  l)efore  we  enter  on  the  inquiry,  unless,  of  course,  in  con- 
tingencies which  may  ha])iM'n,  the  fonimisioners,  for  good 
reasons,  may  make  a  change  in  the  limitation  hereafter. 

Mr.  j'eterh: — Mr.  Dicki'iton  and  i):>self  agree  that  six  wi' 
nesses  will  in  all  pntbability  be  (|uite  sufficient  on  eitlwr 
side.  80  far  as  we  are  concerned  the  difficulty  presents  il 
self,  that  our  case  in  this  matter  has  been  closed  t(»  a  ciM'tiiir 
extent;  l)ut  I  suggested  to  Mr.  Dickinson  that  we  cannot  nt 
.Q  once  pick  up  the  witnesses  we  would  like  to  examine  on  this 
matter,  and  that  there  would  be  no  objection  to  our  putting 
in  that  evidence  in  any  of  the  following  casec.  to  be  used  in 
this  case  the  same  as  though  taken  Ium-o. 

The  (Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  Slates: — The 
Commissioners  ngive  that  there  is  no  objection  to  that.  I 
ought  to  say  that  this  )>road  question  has  not  been  put  to 
Captain  Miner,  if  I  recollect  correctly. 

Mr.   I>ickins«m: — I   asked  him  about    his   personal  experi 
50    ence.  your  Hononr. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Ihe  I'nited  States* — To 
a  certain  limited  extent.  I  think  it  but  fair  for  you  to  un- 
derstand that  you  are  entitled  to  ]Mit  the  broad  <|uestion  ttt 
him  at  some  time. 

CrosB-examine.tion  of  Captain  Miner  continued  by  8ir  C.  II. 
Tupper: 

60  Q.— When  did  you  last  see  the  "I'nger?"  .\.— 1  couldn't 
say  as  to  the  year;  I  saw  her  last  al  Hand  Point. 

Q. — You  are  not  positive  as  to  wlinl  lime?  A. — I  am  n<ii 
positive  within  a  year. 

Q.— About  what  year?  A.— Kit  her  1SH7  or  1S8S,  1  would 
not  be  positive  which. 

Q. — When  did  you  first  see  her?       .V. — The  same  year. 

Q. — Yon  never  saw  her  before?  .\. — I  saw  her  the  one 
Tear.       I  saw  her  in  the  suuinier  when  I  was  at  Sand  I'oint. 


20 


333 

i,K.  I'.  Minor— CnrnH.) 

Q. — Von  linpiM'ticd  to  run  into  Sand  I'oint  iintl  xlic  was 
tlM'Po?      A. — Yi'H,  sir. 

Q. — When  did  you  s«'«'  tlio  "Nargaii?"      A. — The  8nm<'  ,venr. 

y. — Arc  .voH  |)(witiv<>  tluit  yon  hiiw  tlu'in  lioth  in  1HH7  or 
\HHH?      A.— Y«'H,  Hir. 

y. — Would  yi>n  h«>  MurpriHed  to  know  that  the  "Nargai" 
was  lost  Ht'fort'  that  date?      A. — I  would. 

H. — You  know  she  wan  lost  at  wa?  A. — She  was  lost, 
'"  y.'»,  sir. 

Q. — W<»uld  you  undertake  to  swear  that  she  was  not  lost 
in  1881?      A. — I  wouldn't  undertake  to  swear  when  she  was 

lOHt. 

Q. — >Vhen  did  you  see  the  "liBura?"  A. — I  saw  the  "Lau- 
ra" in  Han  Pranciseo. 

0.— When  did  you  sw  her?      A.— In  1888  or  1889. 

(/. — Do  you  know  that  (/aptain  Hans<'n  bought  her?  A. — 
I  had  heard  so. 

Q. — Do  you  «i  lember  the  year  he  bought  her?  A. — No, 
sir. 

Q. — Did  you  hear  what  he  bought  her  for?      A. — No,  sir. 

(J. — Do  y«)U  know  what  her  value  was?  .\. — I  underHtood 
that  she  was  offered  for  about  f 21100. 

(). — What  would  yon  consider  her  value?  A. — I  should 
say  that  was  about  her  value. 

Q. — What  sort  of  a  ship  was  she?  Fast  sjiller?  A. — 
She  was  supposed  to  Im»  a  moderately  good  Hailer. 

(J. — What  were  her  lines?  A. — She  was  rather  a  sharp 
U)   veHwI. 

Q. — Do  you  know  when  she  was  built?      A. — I  do  not. 

(). — Do  you  know  what  she  was  built  of?  A. — Built  of 
On'gon  pine. 

y. — Do  you  know  her  tonnage?  A. — 22  to  25  tons,  I 
sliould  think. 

Q. — You  would  not  undertake  to  say?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — You  would  not  undertake  to  say  she  was  over  19,  would 
you?     A. — No,  sir.      All  the  means  I  had  of  knowing  is  look- 
ing at  her,  about  the  size. 
40       H. — Where  did  that  sale  take  plaee  that  you  heard  of?  A. 
— I  didn't  say  I  heard  of  a  sah?.      Had  b<*en  <»ffered. 

Q.— Offennl  what?      A.— ♦2.tM»0. 

(i.— Whew?      A.— Han  Franelseo. 

<i. — Rut  you  did  not  hear  whether  any  one  accepted  it? 
A. — No,  sir. 

Q.— Did  you  think  that  a  fair  price  for  her?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — In  that  market?      A. — In  that  market. 

Q. — .\nd  you  were  captain  of  the  "I'enelope"  in  18S:i,  were 
v<Hi  not?       A.— No,  sir. 
50       Q._Sure?       A.— Sure. 

Q.— Who  was  captain  In  \HHT!  A.— I  forget  the  man's 
name;  he  was  an  Englishman. 

Q. — You  had  nothing  to  do  with  her?  A.— I  was  aboard 
of  her. 

Q. — nut  you  forget  the  captain's  name?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— You  are  «|uite  imsitive.  captain,  that  you  were  not  her 
master  in  1883?      A.— Quite  positive. 

Q. — And  you  don't  know  who  was  master?  A. — I  cannot 
60  cull  his  name. 

Q. — How  long  did  you  sail  with  him?  .\. — I  think  almnt 
four  months. 

Q. — Never  have  seen  him  since?  A. — Never  have  seen 
liim  since. 

<J. — You  were  speaking  of  the  "Penelope"  iM'ing  in  port 
liere.  just  tell  me  again  when  von  were  first  in  Victoria  (»n 
Ihe  "I'enelope '?"       A.— In  Victoria  in  October  of  1880. 


1 

■ ' '  J 
:   -\^ 


m 


:   H'         J; 

'  •::t-^^- 

>   Hfe  Ik.: 

iiwii  m 

1 

■ll»<l,lll 


30 


556 
•  K.  1*.  Miner — CroHH.) 

Q. — How  loiiK  (lid  .von  tttiiy  in  port  then?      A. — I  Hl)i,vf<l 
in  |Hirt  then  until  tin*  following  Ft'hrunr.v. 

(j. — WiiM  tlio  Hliip  luiul('<i  out  on  iiny  Hlip  in  Vi«-toriu  during 
Iht*  time  you  were  Ih'w?      A. — H\\e  was. 
li. — Who(H»  HJIp?      A. — A  man  named  C«M(k'B. 
Q. — What  waB  bIip  hauled  out  for?      A. — To  bo  painted; 
her  bottom  eleancd  and  iminted. 
IQ       Q. — Do  you  remembiT  the  dues  tha*  you    paid?       A.— I 
think  almut  fM);  I  think  Bomewhere  about  that. 
Q. — That  was  simply  for —      A. — For  the  whole  work. 
Q. — You  had  ihe  ••l'onelo|»e"  hauled  out  in  Han  FranolHco? 
A. — Xo,  Bir. 

g.— Any  veBBi'l  of  her  size?      A.— I  had  the  "Lily  I,." 
Q. — How  do  ihe  doekape  dues  ^iimpare  and  the  work  of 
that  i'hanieter — the  coHt?      A. — The  work  that  I  had  done 
on  the  "Lily  h.,"  I  think,  came  to  a  little  more  than  that. 
Q. — I  ask  ytm,     from  vour  exiHTic-nee  in  the  two  ports. 
20   where  is  it  the  cheapest  to  have  that  work  done,  in  Vietoria 
or  in  Kan  Praneiseo?      A. — 1  didn't  sw?  much  differenre. 

Q. — You  cannot  tell  me  the  cost  in  either  case?       A. — I 
Ray  about  fOt). 

Q. — In  each  place?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — How  near  can  you  come  to  that  for  a  certainty  in  Sun 
Francisco?      A. — In  my  case  I  can  come  within  |10  of  it. 
Q. — You  are  sure  of  that?      A. — Yes.  sir. 
Q. — But  yon  do  not  know  which  was  th*-  heaviest?      A. — 
No,  Bir;  I  couldn't  swear  as  to  that. 

Q. — Whose  slip  were  you  on  in  San  Francisco?      A. — Tur 
ner's. 

Q. — Now.  in  IXXH.  would  you  stat*'  again  the  ship  that  yon 
had  charpe  of?      A.— The  "MIy  L." 

Q. — Wher«'  did  you  t»o?      A. — I  went  to  Itehrin);  Sea  and 
Copper  Islands. 

Q. — From  what  |»ort  did  you  sail?      A. — San  Francisco. 
Q. — Fitted  out  there?      A. — Yes.  sir. 
Q. — What  month  did  you  leave?      A. — Karly  in  the  spr'ng, 
as  to  the  month,  whether  it  was  Fei»ruary  or  March. 

Q. — For  whar  len(;th  of  v«»yaRe — for  how  many  months? 
A. — Usually  nlMtut  eight  months. 

Q — And  when  you  sjiy  Hehring  S«'a  and  Copper  Islands, 
do  you  mean  the  Pribyloff  and  Copper  Islands,  or  simply  Co|» 
per  Islands?      .\. — No,  sir;  we  say  the  waters  around  the 
islands;  we  mean  the  hunting  rounds. 
Q. — That  is  on  the  Uussian  side?      A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q.— In  ISHft?      A.— I  was  in  the  "Lily  L." 
Q.— And  where  did  you  fit  out?       A.— I  fitted  out  in  San 
Francisco. 

Q. — For  the  same  \oyag«'?  \. — The  same  voyage,  with 
the  exception-  - 

Q. — I  mean  in  period  of  time?  .\  — .\l»out  the  same  jwri- 
od  of  time. 

Q. — And  bound  for  what?  A — Hound  for  the  same  voy- 
age, with  the  exception  that  I  did  not  intend  to  go  to  (.'opiMT 
Islands. 

Q.— Well,  you  did  ko  there,  did  you  not?      .\.— Yes.  I  did. 
for  a  short  time. 
Q.— And  where  else  did  you  go?      .\.— Hehring  Sea. 
Q.— On  the  American  side?       A.— On  th<'  American  side. 
Q. — What  time  did  you  get  to  the  .\merlcan  side?      A.— 
We  arrived  there,  not  until  August. 
Q.— That  was  in  l«N«?      A.— Yen,  sir. 
Q. — I  supimse  you  had  some  reason  for  not  going  on  the 
American  side  in  \HHH'}      A. —  I  understood  tliere  were  seiz- 
ures. 


40 


50 


60 


10 


20 


30 


40 


SO 


(yo 


55" 
iK.  1".  Miller — <'roHB.) 

Q. — Will  .voii  Ik'  guud  cnouKli  tu  look  at  tlilH  i-hart?  About 
August  of  1H8U  yuu  Hny  you  wi>nt  from  thv  KusHiau  Hidv  over 
tothf  AiiH'ricnn  side?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Wliut  c-u>irsi>  did  you  tiiki'  from  tin*  KuhhSud  waters? 
A. — iKxamitiiiiK  chart) — I  cuiiie  directly  across. 

(I. — For  what  point  iu  the  Hea  did  you  make?  A. — Wher- 
ever I  could  And  seals,  from  here  over  (indicating). 

(i.— "NVhere  did  yoii  begin  liiinTing?      A. — I  sealed — 

(i. — For  instance,  where  did  you  start  from?  A. — Hoiith  of 
*.'o|»]ier  Islands. 

Q. — And  what  course  di«i  you  make?      A. — AlM)Ut  east. 

Q. — Wliere  would  that  bring  you  out?  A. — Itring  me  out 
tiliout  latitude  5.^1;  I  iH'gan  sealing,  if  I  remenilH'r,  about  Ion- 
•filiide  west  t7.J. 

<2. — As  near  iis  you  can  reim'ml)er?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

(}. — And  where  did  you  then  jiroct'cd?  A. — I  hunted  a  lit- 
tle further  eastward  than  that. 

(i.— To  where?      A.— To  aliout  170. 

y. — IHd  you  purposely  keep  out  of  the  old  sjwt?  A. — No, 
tiir. 

Q. — Were  you  atraid  of  seizures  in  1S8!>?  A. — I  didn't 
liave  any  fear  of  that. 

Q. — IMd  you  keep  n  lookout  for  tlie  cutters?  A. — Kept  a 
lookout  always.  t 

(j. — This  point  that  you  indicate  on  the  chart  is  outside. 
or  practically  outside,  of  Iho  track  of  the  cutters,  is  it  not? 
.\. — As  I  undei-ftand,  tliey  cruise  the  whole  sea  within  a  ra- 
<tius  of  200  miles. 

(i. — You  did  not  nnderstancl  tlu'y  made  a  more  frequent 
( iiiise  iM'twjM'n  Ounalaska  and  the  I'ribyloffs?  A. — Except 
im  they  make  llicir  eourse  from  Ounalaska  to  the  islands. 

Q. — Do  you  kn<»w,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  «>r  do  you  not  know; 
fiiat  tliey  are  more  on  that  track  tlian  on  any  other?  A. — 
Yes.  sir;  take  their  course  from  Ounalaska. 

Q. — As  a  matter  of  fjict.  you  kept  away  from  tlie  track  in 
iSSJ).      A. — No  more  than  I  would  from  any  otiier  plitce. 

Q. — As  a  matter  of  fa«-t.  did  you  or  did  you  not,?  A. — I 
did  not  cross  that. 

Q.— Did  yon  make  ItogoslofT  Island  in  ISSft?  A.— I  don't 
lenienilMM-  of  having  made  it. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  of  going  over  that  far?  A. — I 
iliink  I  was  that  far. 

(i. — How  near  did  you  go  to  the  American  side  in  that  sea- 
son of  1880?      A. — Do  you  mean  coast? 

Q. — For  instance,  over  towards  this  direction  (indicating) 
in  which  yon  were  making  towards  tlie  islands?  A. — Oh,  T 
lliiiik  probably  about  (>0  or  70  miles. 

Q. — Show  me  on  the  chart?  A. — The  near«'st  I  must  have 
ln'cn  was  somewher<>  about  here  (indicating). 

Q.— What  is  that  in  latitude  and  longitude?  A.—  Be- 
tween longitude  IttO  and  170  west,  and  about  55  north  luti- 
t  ude. 

Q. — Then  you  got  no  nearer  to  T^nimak,  for  instance,  than 
that  in  hunting?      A. — No,  sir,  not  that  I  can  remenib«'r. 

y. — Now.  when  did  you  go  out  of  the  sea  in  1889?  A. — 
In  1880  I  went  out  of  the  sea  about  the  latter  part  of  August. 
if  I  reiiiemlier  right. 

i\. — Through  what  pass  did  you  go  out?  A. — I  couldn't 
siiy  wh«>ther  I  went  out  through  Unimak  or  Akitan. 

Q. — Are  yon  certain  that  you  went  out  of  either?  A. — I 
went  out  one  or  the  other. 

Q  — In  1890  what  was  vour  course?  '..—In  1890  I  was 
ill  Ihe  "AIHe  I.  Alger." 

(^— Fitted  out  where'      A.— Fitted  out  at  Seattle. 


I' 


'i 


r?«;:M 


lie  'X 


■A: 


, i:  !;l  Li? 


ill  if' 

.,,1 


ll' 


'||^'l^'^ 


lO 


20 


5S8 

(K.  I'.  .Miiu-r — rroHn.) 

Q.— Wliu  tlUfd  lior  out?  A.— Mr.  NickiTHUu;  I  inouu  Mr. 
NickiTHon  puid  for  it. 

Q. — Wlitit  biiMiiicHH  plHci*  wtiH  hIk'  flttiHl  Diit  rliiftl^  in  H<>- 
attle?      A.— rhieli.v  at  HcliwabaclM-r'B. 

Q. — Wen*  you  Imt  uiUMtcr?      A. — Y«'h,  «>. 

Q.— For  wliat  cruiw*  did  sin?  HI  <»ut?  A. — Healing  in 
Ufbring  Hon. 

y.— Tho  Aniorican  Hide?      A.— Vf»,  Hir. 

ti.— In  wluit  niontli  did  .vou  lit  out?  .\.— Fitted  out  in 
January;  fitted  out  for  tlie  ll<'lirinK  Hon. 

</. — For  wliat  p«'riod?      A. — About  nine  niontliH. 

y. — Wlien  did  ,vou  Hail?      A. — In  January.  I  think. 

ii. — And  wlnTe  did  you  wal?  A. — I  sealed  on  the  <'ali- 
fomin  eonHt,  On'gon  and  \Vat«hint;ton  coaHt,  and  from  there 
north. 

Q. — Did  you  Ko  to  the  UHiial  groiindfi?      \. — Y«»8,  Hir. 

(i. — Hhow  nie  where  you  Heal<>d  in  Itelirinit  Hen  on  tlie 
chart?      A. — I  Healed  «>ntin'ly  around  the  iHlnndn. 

Q. — You  mean  north,  wiuth,  eant  and  wesJ?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — How  far  away  from  them?  .\. — The  neareNt  I  was 
to  the  iHlnnds  wuh  4(t  miles. 

(J. — ^Vbere  did  you  low«'r  the  boats  first  after  Koing  into 
the  sen?  A. — It  would  Im«  a  hard  matter  for  me  t«)  say; 
wherever  I  firHt  saw  a  seal. 

Q. — You  oannot  tell  me?      A. — No.  sir. 

Q. — No  idea?  A. — No,  sir,  I  have  none;  nothing  to  re- 
frenh  my  memory  with. 

Q. — You  oannot  tell  me  where  vou  put  the  boats  down  for 
30  the  first  tin>e?      A.— No.  sir. 

Q.— Whether  .10  milen  from  the  pass,  fiO  or  90?  A.— No, 
sir. 

.    Q. — What    time    did    you  get  into  the    sea?      A. — Home 
time  the  first  part  of  July. 

Q. — What  time  did  you  leave?  A. — I  loft  that  year  in 
September. 

Q.— What  time?  A.— The  first  part,  along  the  first  part 
of  H«>ptemb«'r. 

Q. — You  don't  remember  the  week?      A. — No,  sir,  I  don't 
'^     rememlMT  the  w«>«'k. 

Q.— In  1801  you  did  not  go  into  tlu'  Bea?  A.— No,  sir.  I 
did  not. 

Q.— And  1892  vou  did  not  go  into  the  Hea?      A.— No.  sir. 

Q.— Where  did  you  go  in  1892?  A  —In  1892  I  went  to 
Copi)er  Island. 

Q. — When  you  said  you  did  no(  go  int.  the  Hea,  iif  eourse 
you  meant  on  the  .\meriean  bide?  A.—  1  did  go  into  tlie 
Hea;  I  w«'nt  to  Ounalaska.  and  tlien  turnid  out  of  the  Hea 
again;  I  went  to  Copper  iHliiuds. 

Q. — Hut  you  did  not  seal  «»n  the  .\meriean  side  in  1892  at 
all?      A.— No.  sir. 

Q.— Whew  did  you  fit  out  in  1892?      A.— In  Henttle. 

Q. — For  the  same  eruis*'?  A. — Yes,  sir,  for  the  sara*? 
crnise. 

Q. — Same  eruise  in  point  of  tim«'?      A. — Ye.s.  sir. 

Q. — And  the  same  jteople  fitted  you  out?  A. — Tlw  same 
p«*ople. 

Q. — What  was  the  name  of  that  firm?      .\. — ^^Hehwabaoher. 
Oo       Q.— In  189.'<?      A.— In  189:1  I  fitted  out  I'or  the  same  cruise. 

Q. — .\nd  same  waters?       A. — Yes.  sir. 
Q.— And  189J?    A.— In  1894  1   tilted  out  f(»r  a  Japanese 
cruise. 

Q. — I)i<l  you  go  upon  it?  .\. — Yes.  sir. 
Q. — Where  did  vou  go?      A. — I  w«'ul  to  the  Japan  const. 
Q.— Had  you  any  diffl<uHy  in  getting  a  ship  in  1894?  A.— 
I  owned  in  (lie  ship  I  was  going  in;  I  did  not  have  any  difli 
cultv. 


.SJ 


y^9 

iK.  r.  MiiHT— <'roMM.) 

Q. — Do  you  know  ilw  "Ilfni-y  DoniilH?"      A. — \'vn,  Hir. 
il — You  w«'iM>  wrt'cki'd,  wcri'ii'l  jou,  in  that  year?  A. — In 


•»4. 


(2.— IMdnJ   von   «rv 
vour  wriM-ki'd  v«'hh«'I? 


to  p-t  a   vcHwl  to  tuk<'  tLt*  plai'i'  of 
A. — I  tli<l  iivt  a  vcHHfl;  I  i-anie  bark 
to  H<-attl)>  au'l   t1tt<Ml  out  «in  anotlu'r  cfuiHC  and    went    to 
ItflifInK  S«'H. 
lo       Q. — Hain»'  coni-w?       A. — No,  xir.  ju8t  fi'om  8«'attle  to  the 
ItclirinK  K<>n. 
H. — Wlicfe  <ll<l  you  net  a  v<'hscI?       A. — In  Seattle, 
(i.— What  wan  her     name?       A.— The     "Ella     Johnson;" 
tliaHered  lier. 
(i.— I>i<l  you  tiy  to  buy?       A.— \o.  nir. 
{}. — I  will  ju8t  fend  tliiM  to  vou  to  reft'enli  vour  inemopv. 
••(hi  the  'JHth  of  May  at  Heaitle  I  met  Captain  E.  P.  Miner, 
iiuiHter  of  the  Hehooner  "Henry  iJenniH,"  which  on  the  Hame 
(lay  had  arrived   froiu  •la|ian.'*       I   am  reading    from    Mr. 
20  -Mexander'H  report.       "Ilix  veHwel   liavinp;  been   wrecked  on 
that  I'oaMt  at  tlie  time  of  meeting  liim,  he  wan  endeavoriu); 
to  iliarter  another  veHHel,  and  hoped  to  be  in  tlie  ISelirinK 
Sea  by  the  tirst  of  Aun»Ht."       I  was  referrlun  <*»  •''"♦  when 
I  liMked  you  if  you  HUte«'<'ded  in  {getting  a  vengel?     A. — YeH, 
sir. 

ii. — When  did  you  ntart  on  your  chartered  vessel?  A. — I 
started  about  the  4th  of  .Inly,  if  I  r»«member. 

ti. — Then  what  cruiw  did  you  take?     A. — I   went  directly 
to  OunalaHka. 
^o      W- — And  then  where?     .\. — From  then'  into  the  Sea  Heal- 
in  k. 

(i.— What  time  did  you  reach  the  Sea?  A. — I  forget  the 
date  I  readied  OunahiHka,  hut  I  reached  the  Mealing  ground 
or  iH'gan  Healing  on  the  lIKh  of  .\iigUHt. 

(.y — Where  did  you  begin?  A. — I  Ix'gan  about  :{5  iniler, 
outside  of  Ounalaska. 

Q. — Point  it  out  to  me,  pl«'ase,  on  the  chart?  A. — latitude 
attout  .~>4.o(),  and  huigitude  about  I(i7.:tt>. 

Q. — And  how  long  did  you  seal  tlierc  in  that  vicinity?     A. 
^0   —I  Healed  the  rest  of  the  season  in  that  vicinity,  within  70 
or  so  miles. 

Q. — And  came  otit  of  the  Sea  wlu-n?  A. — I  came  out  of 
the  Hea,  if  I  remember  rightlv.  about  the  inth  of  Septem- 
ber. 

(i. — Now,  Captain,  you  told  us  yesterday,  I  think,  some- 
thing about  tlie  valii"  or  cost  of  vessels  for  the  sealing  busi- 
iicNs  being  fixed  in  IH.sO  and  1HH7  in  San  Francisco.  l>o  you 
remember  stating  soiiietliing  to  that  effect?  A.- -I  remem- 
ber that ;  yes,  sir. 
j*^^  <i. — Could  you  be  precise  now  in  regard  to  what  you  meant 
Ity  that?  A. — I  meant  by  that  where  the  vessels  are  most 
plenty  and  most  offered  for  sale;  that  I  would  consider  that 
would  lie  where  the  market  would  be  fixed, 

(}. — What  vessels  were  being  offered  for  sale  in  1886  and 
IMH7  in  San  Francisco?  A. — I  could  not  recall  the  ones  of- 
fered for  sale;  it  was  a  well  known  fact  that  there  were  ves- 
sels for  sale. 
Q. — You  cannot  tell  me  any?  A. — No,  sir. 
,  ^  Q.— It  was  a  fact,  was  it  not,  that  in  18S«  or  1887  vessels 
suitable  for  sealing  advanced  in  value?  A. — I  don't  know 
its  to  that 

(i.— When  did  they  advance  in  value?  .\.— Well.  1  have 
not  known  of  vessels  advancing  in  value  on  the  coast. 

Q. — What  kind  of  vt'ssels  were  taken  for  sealing  in  1880 
and  1887;  were  they  built  especially  for  sealing  or  were  they 
coast  lug  schooners?      .\. — Some  were  and  some  were  not. 

<i.-Cliietiy?  A.-Chielly,  I  think,  they  weie  vessels  built 
for  tlu'  business. 


m 


:   J: 


Ir^U- 


rr" 


;  l;'i    " 


l'l,l, 


10 


20 


3«^ 


40 


50 


A.— TIm'  "(iif  V  of  «au  DIi'Ko." 
•('.  II.  WhiUV— I  «loir«   know 


60 


560 

(F.  r.  MiiH'i— rnmn.) 

Q. — You  wuiil'l  not  undertake  to  Nwetir  to  tlitit  HtHtcnicnt? 
A. — I  fould  not  Miy  what  pro|H»rtlon  tlio.v  would  Im>. 

(J. — Can  you  nanu>  n  doxt-n  veHwlH  in  Hun  Franeim-o  or  Vic 
toriti  that  were  oriKinall.v  huilt  for  tlit-  tt|H.H'ial  purpom*  of 
walinK?      A.— I  tliink  I  can. 

Q. — Well,  nanio  tlieni;  and  for  no  other  puriHtHc?  A. — 
The  "Alexander."  the  "Otter." 

<J. — And  ii\vi'  the  yearti.  If  you  ean.  A. —  I  cannot  jjlve 
the  yearn. 

Q. — Then  gn  on  with  tlie  lint 
"Han  .low."  the  "Ileranian, 
as  I  can  recoller-t  any  more. 

Q. — TIow  nian>  of  thoHe  were  huilt  iM'fore  lS.»<ti?  .\. —  I 
couldn't  nay  an  to  that. 

Q. — IIow  many  were  huilt  before  1HK7?  \. — I  could  not 
|dac(>  the  date. 

Q.— How  nuiny  liefore  l.»*8S?  A.— I  knew  them  nil  In-fore 
that  time.  I  think. 

Q. — How  ninny  of  ihow  were  built  In-fore  18Ht»?  A.— Not 
but  one  that  I  can  recollect. 

Q. — You  told  UH  yeHterday  that  the  ve»Hel  waH  brouRhr 
from  the  eaHtern  coaHt.  did  you  not,  captain?  A. — I  said  I 
knew  of  one  coming  at  that  time. 

Q.— The  year  1887.  "Triumph?"  A  — Xo,  I  think  the  flrHt 
one  I  knew  of  c<miinK  waH  befttre  1887.  I  think  Hhe  came  in 
1880.  the  "Pathander." 

Q. — If  there  was  a  Hupftly  of  vesHcIs  In  Sjin  FranclHco  iM-fore 
188G  is  it  not  likely  they  would  have  Hent  ar<»uud  to  the  RuHt 
ern  coant  for  a  v«-hhcI?      \. — Not  unlikely. 

Q. — P'ven  If  vcHW-ln  w«-re  fn-ely  otTt-red  in  the  nuirki-t  at 
Han  Francisco?  A. — Certainly;  they  are  doinj;  the  Hume 
thing  today. 

Q. — Tell  me  why  they  would  Hend  around  to  the  enHt  if 
there  was  a  good  supply  at  San  Francisco?  A. — They  think 
they  get  a  better  vessel  for  the  same  nion*-y.  or  leas,  I  sup 
|)08e. 

Q. — Then  the  valin-  would  not  be  tlx«'d  at  Ran  Francisco, 
under  those  circumstances,  would  it?  \. — Yes.  on  this  coast. 

Q. — Notwithstanding  you  can  get  a  cheaper  vessel  on  the 
eastern  coast  than  on  this  coast,  the  pri«'e  was  fixed  at  Han 
Francisco,  you  think?  .\. — I  d«m't  supiM)s<>  the  ship  would 
l)e  cheaper  after  th<'y  brought  her  around;  she  would  be 
dearer.      I  should  imagine  she  would  cost  fully  as  much. 

Q. — Would  she  not  cost  more?      .\. — Not  that  I  know  of. 

Q. — Will  you  undertake  to  say  that  when  they  were  bring 
ing  these  vessels  from  the  east  they  could  get  suitable  sealing 
vessels  in  the  home  port  cheap«-r  or  as  clieap  as  the  vessels 
that  they  brought  around  from  the  east?  A. — I  wouldn't 
undertake  to  say  that  they  could  get  chea|K-r  veswls  there. 

Q. — Will  you  answer  my  «niestion? 

Mr.  Lansing:- -What  year  are  you  talking  about? 

Sir  C.  H.  Tupper;— 18Kfi.  or  1887.  when  these  vessels  were 
bntught  around.  (To  witness.)  Q. — In  the  years  when  you 
know  tlu-y  bntught  v«-ss(>ls  from  the  «-ast,  will  you  undertake 
to  say  that  thev  Itrought  them  notwithstanding  they  could  get 
vessels  suitabh-  for  the  business  in  Han  Francisco  for  a 
chea|K'r  |>ric(-?      \. — Yes.  sii. 

Q. — Now.  what  vessels  c«»uld  they  get  cheaper  than  the  one 
you  had  in  mind  at  the  time  they  brought  her  around,  what 
vessel  was  on  the  market?  .\. — I  have  no  way  of  tellin;;  what 
the  vessels  tlu-y  brought  around,  cost. 


10 


20 


33 


40 


r)o 


;6, 

(K.  r.  Miiur— i'nmy.) 

Q. — l>u  .vuii  kiK'w  iiiij-  vfHM'l  (liat  wum  in  tin*  iiinrkot  for 
will'  Miiitablt*  fur  m>HliiiK<  wlirn  hIi(>  did  roiut-  nroiiiid?  A. — 
Tlien>  wort'  H«*v«'i'al,  I  ciiiiiiot  fall  llM'tn  t<»  iiiiiid. 

Q. — Will  ,v«»u  Hwt'ar  IIm'I-*'  wen-  m'Vfi-al  in  llw  waHon  hIic 
waH  hronKlit  annind,  un  the  niai-l«'t  for  miI<>,  Huilablt*  f(»r  wal- 
ing?     A. — V«'H.  sir. 

ii. — Vou  will  Hw«-ar  lo  that  |HtHitiv<>l,v  and  diHtim-tly?  A. 
— Yt'H,  hIp. 

Q. — You  Ha.v  yoii  cannot  name  one  of  tlimi?    A. — No,  Bir. 

H, — Nor  tliclr  owncrn?     A. — Xo.  »ir. 

(J. — And  what  ,v«'up  aiv  you  n-ft-rrlni?    to?    A. — ISWi    and 

1MH7. 

Q.— To  two  .ViMUH.  IMWI  and  1SK7?  What  time  of  th«*  yv»r 
wen*  th«'Mt»  vccMfM'lH  on  the  nnirk«'t  for  Kale?  A. — An.v  tinit*  <»f 
year. 

Q. — T«*ll  nu'  tin'  tini«'?    A. — Xo  partii  ular  tim«'. 

Q.— You  cannot  fix  it?  A.— I  know  in  tli<>  fall  of  both 
yvttVH  I  c(»uld  hav«'  houKlit  vchm'Ih  in  Han  Frani-im-o. 

(i. — What  month?    A. — Xovcniltcr,  Hav.  and  iU'ccnibcr. 

(J.— Of  what  year?    A.— IHWi  and  ISMT. 

Q. — How  many  vchhcIm  could  you  have  boujjht?  A. — If  I 
had  had  tlx'  money  I  could  havo  iHiu^ht  Hcvcral,  I  think. 

Q.— >Vhat  makcH  you  think  that?  A.— I  heard  of  their 
beiuK  offen'd  for  nnle. 

Q. — How  did  you  hear,  had  you  occnHion  to  look  for  them? 
.\. — No,  Hip,  I  had  no  o<'caHion. 

Q.— >Yhat  vcBBel  had  you  at  the  time?  A.— The  'Ten- 
elope." 

Q.— In  18S«?    A.— Yes,  Hir. 

Q.— And  1887?     A.— YeH,  hIp. 

Q. — \YaH  8he  in  Han  Francisco  in  November?  A. — Slie 
waH  in  thiH  ]N)rt. 

(J. — And  you  were  with  lier?     A. — Yep.  hIp. 

(i. — Hut  you  kn«'W  that,  in  Han  Francincti  there  were  ve» 
rcIb?     a. — I  made  a  trijt  to  Han  FrnnciHco. 

Q.— >Vlien  did  you  make  it?  A.— 1  couldn't  tell  what 
time;  Honu'where  in  the  fall. 

(i.— ^VaH  it  (htober?     A.— Xo. 

Q. — \\'n»  it  in  Novendier?     A. — November  or  I>ecembep. 

Q. — W«'r«'  these  veHBeln  Ktill  on  the  market  in  DcemlK-r  of- 
ferine  for  Hale  in  Han  Fr:ineiHco?     A. — I  talked — 

Q. — AnHwer  my  qucBtion.  I  want  to  know  »h  a  fart 
wiiether  these  veHHelM  were  on  the  market  in  Han  Fr.-inciHco 
for  Hale  in  December  when  you  went  tht'Pe?  A. — Yes,  sip. 
wliich  ever  month  I  went  there. 

(}. — Ibu  you  do  not  know  what  mt>nth?     A. — Xo,  sir. 

(J. — Can  you  come  within  a  month  of  the  numth?  A. — I 
only  named  two  nxmths. 

Q. — You  have  named  three;  you  named  Octoln-r,  November 
and  December?     A. —  I  did  not  name  October. 

Q. — You  will  swear  it  was  eitln'P  November  or  I>ecember 
of  ISHfi?     A.— Yen,  hIp. 

(J. — And  you  were  in  the  ''I'enelojie"?  A. — I  had  the 
"l'en«'lo|)e"  in  my  ('hapge. 

Q. — And  you  took  hep  into  San  Fpancisco?     A. — No,  sip. 

Q. — \Yent  alone?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Left  your  ship  here?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — I   understood  you  were  here  from   tin 
some  time  in  the  spring  of  1SS7?     .\.- 
ception  of  a  short  trip. 

Q. — now  ninny  we««k8  wer«>    you 
two  weeks. 

(i. — >Vill  you  say  you  were  not  absent  a  month?  A. — I 
was  not  abs«>nt  a  month. 

Q. — You  are  positive  as  to  that?     A. — Yet.  sir. 


fall  and  until 
f  was,  with  the  ex- 
absent?    A. — Probably 


l!!l 


10 


20 


'ih<iiHi 


(K.  r.  .MiiHT — CroHM.) 

Q. — V«ii  weiv  uot  ildwii  (hciM-  in  IhTciiilMT?     A.— I  ilou't 
ku«»w  wh>  hfi-  il  WHH  XovoiiiImt  or  Ih'i-i'iuhfv. 
y. — Whul  (lid  you  j<o  iliiwii  for?     A. — .liiMt  for  tlu'  trip, 

i], — No   bllHilH'KH?       A. — Xo.   hllHilW'NH  i'ClMM'Inlly. 

<i. — Xo  ImihIik-hh  of  iin.v  chiirnrtiT?     A. — Xo.  nlr. 
<i. — Wlmt  uwiii'fH  of  HhipH  (lid  yon  wi-?     A. — I  mhw  a  givm 
many,  talking  to  tht-ni. 

(i. — Prom  tii<-m  you  It-arm-d  of  HliipH  Ik'Ihk  olTrrcd  for  wilf? 
A.— Yes.  Hir. 
Q.  —  And  no  purcluiH(>rH?    A. — Xo.  Hir. 

(,. — Hoalinj;  vi'bhpIh?  A.— VcbhoIh  that  would  Iw  Huitablo 
foi  senlint;. 

H. — How  do  you  know,  did  y<»u  examine  any  of  tlit'ni?  \. 
— I  took  tiM'ir  wurdH  for  it. 

Q. — Arc  you  |»oBitivp  tlu'y  mentioned  they  were  Huitable  for 
HtMilinK?     A. — YeH,  nir. 

(i. — \Yhere,  on  the  ulreel— converHiuK  on  Ihe  street?  .\.— 
I  don't  know  whether  on  the  Htre«'t  or  in  Kalooni*. 

Q. — And  you  eannot  give  me  the  name  of  one  ninftle  indi 
vidual  who  told  you  that  he  had  a  vewHel  Hiiitahle  for  waling' 
on  the  nuirket  without  a  purehap:'r?     A.— \o,  Hir. 

Q. — You  rannot  ev<'n  f,'"**""  n  name.  I  nuppOHe?  A.— T(k» 
many  yeara  Itack  to  remember  that. 

Q. — You  wiy  you  were  there  about  two  weeks?  A.— I 
think  about  that  time. 

Q. — Did  you  report  the  faet  to  your  owners,  or  any  one 
interested  in  tin-  tr.ide  h«'re?      A.— Not  that  I  know  of. 
30       Q- — You  had  no  oeiaHion  to  pay  particular  attention  to  the 
market,  had  you?      .\.— Xo  more  than  b«'inR  in  the  buBinenn 
we  always  converse'  about  sueh  thinRs. 

Q.— How  lonK  after  tb.-it  was  it  that  the  vt-ssels  began 
to  eome  from  the  eastern  |K)rts?  .\. — They  had  already 
come  from  the  eastern  ports. 

Q. — And  were  still  coming  in  ln«-reaHing  numbers?  A.— 
Yos,  sir. 

Q. — And  have  continued  to  eome?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Wh.     do  you  call  the  beginning  of  the  period  whfn 
40   s(>aling  tot.ij  a   start — Pelagic  sealing,  as  we  «'all   it — ocean 
Healing — from  these  iMirts?    .\.— I  don't  know;  I  started  to 
seal  myself — 

Q. — I  do  not  mean  that.  \Nhen  did  it  tak«'  its  best  start 
as  a  commercial  enterprtse?  Are  you  familiar  enough  with 
the  business  of  either  port  to  tell  aie  that?  A. — I  have  lieen 
in  the  biisinesH  all  the  time. 

Q. — Referring  to  y.iur  familiarity  with  the  business,  when 
did  it,  as  a  commercial  venture  and  a  general  enterprise,  take 
its  start?      A. — >Vell,  I  should  say  it  was  in  its  most  flourish- 
3°   ing  condition,  if  that  is  what  is  meant,  in  1K87. 

Q.— You  would  put  it  about  18H7  as  its  most  flourishing 
condition?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — There  w«'re  more  in  th«'  business  in  1886  than  prev 
iously.  w«'re  tliere  not?  .\. — I  think  there  were  a  few  more 
v(>ssels  out  in  ISHti  than  1HS.~). 

Q. — Were  there  onlv  a  few  more  vessels  in  the  business  in 
18S«  than  l«8,->?       A.— Yes.  sir. 

Q. — But  in  18H7  it  took  a  greater  start?       A.— Yes.  sir. 
go       Q- — And  vessels  suitable  for  that  I  suppose  brought  an  in 
creased  value  t.y  the  incr<>ased  enterprise  in  1887?       -V. — I 
think  a  man  that  was  in  the  business  would  have  been  wil 
ling  to  h;ive  paid  more  for  a  vessel. 

Q. — The  prices  of  vessels  would  naturally  increase  with  the 
increased  interest  in  the  business,  would  they  not?  A. — 
The  value  of  a  new  vessel — the  values  would  remain  the  same 
of  a  new  vessel. 

Q. — As  a  matter  of  fact  were  not  vensels  in  the  coasting 
business  turned  into  the  sealing  business?    A. — Yes,  sir. 


>^>3 


I  3 


20 


30 


■10 


30 


(K.    P.   MilHT-   riOHH.) 

y.— Was  It  iio(  iHH'aiiHc  ilic  Hvaliug  biiHincMii  would  pay  bot- 
tiT  than  tlu'  riiaiitliij;  IniHiiirMM?  A.— lU-niuw  tlit-y  had  a 
thanci'  for  a  hii|j;fr  profit. 

Q.— And  thi>r«'furu  a  veHwl  Huitaltiv  for  Hruliug  was  of  more 
value  than  a  v«hh«'I  Kuilabl«>  for  couHtiuK  only?  A.— I  can- 
not Ha.v  an  to  that. 

Q.--Y«»u  nro  unable  to  jrivc  nu-  an  opinion  on  that  nt  all? 
A.— No,  Hlr. 

y.— Yon  would  not  like  to  nav?  A.— No,  nir,  I  would  not 
lilie  to  say  that  they  were. 

Q.— Hut  there  waH  more  hco|m'  for  a  veHsel  in  HenliuK  than 
in  roaHtiuR?       A. — YeH,  Hir,   in  eh;infe. 

Q.— That  would  inereuHe  the  value  of  the  conHter'R  pro- 
perty, would  it.  on  the  mnrlcet?  A.— It  would  inereaHe  the 
rhance  of  aelliuK  an  old  voHHel. 

Q.— With  what  market  valneH  are  you  familiar,  thoHe  in 
San  PraneiHco,  or  thoBe  in  Vietoria,  in  ISHfi  and  1MS7?  A.— 
More  In  San  FranelMeo. 

Q.— Almost   wholly?       A.— Yen     Wr. 

Q. — And  it  Ih  of  that  market  thai  w>u  like  to  upeak  with 
more  certainty  than  the  other?      A.-  Ycm,  Mr. 

Q. — There  are  two  different  inarkctK.  are  tliere  not;  priceM 
differ,  construction  of  vcHHelB,  a^'l  coBt  of  provlHions?  A. — 
I  BuppoBe  so. 

Q. — There  was  a  dilTerence  in  IsSfi  ard  ISSi.  was  there  not, 
a  preater  difference?      A. — I  think  a  r''<'ater  difference. 

Q. — There  Ik  even  a  diffen-nce  to<1iiy,  is  there  not,  in  priccH 
i;enerally?      A. — In  certain  arti«'les,  yea,  sir. 

Q. — What  was  yoi.r  first  year  for  outfittinf:  nt  the  port  of 
Victoria  again?      A.  -In  1887. 

Q. — Who  did  your  busineHs  fi)r  you?  A. — I  did  my  own 
buHineBR. 

Q. — You  had  no  mi*ldle  men,  no  a^^'ntB?      A. — No.  Kir. 

Q. — Where  did  you  get  your  HUpplieH?  A. — I  pot  the  bulk 
of  my  Bupplien,  I  think  from  Mr.  Earle. 

Q. — Of  Victoria?  A. — Yen,  sir,  I  got  Bonie  from  Saund- 
ers. 

Q. — Did  yon  get  any  from  S«'nttle?  A. — In  the  way  of 
provisions,  I  think  not. 

(|.— Will  you  undertake  to  say  that  yon  did  not  get  a  part 
<»f  your  supplies  from  R<«attle?  A.— Jn  the  way  of  provisions 
I  will  undertake  to  say  so. 

(J.— But  as  to  anything  else,  you  will  not  say?  A. — No, 
Hir. 

Q.—nid  you  know  the  A.  I».  IIot«>lling  Co.,  in  Seattle?  A. 
— Yefl,  sir. 

Q.— Did  you  deal  with  them?  A.— Nq,  sir,  it  was  a  liquor 
liouse. 

Ci.— You  dealt  witii  Swabn.her.  you  t«»ld  us,  a  little  while 
ago 


G() 


?      A. — That  is  another  vessel  entindy. 


Q.— You  have  dealt  with  them?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

(i.— Now,  did  you  deal  with  them  in  1H87?    A.— No.  sir. 

(i. — You  are  positive?     \. — rositive. 

Q. — la  there  anyone  else  yon  would  deal  with  in  Seattle? 
.\.— There  was  one  I  did  deal  with  in  Seattle,  the  Hardy 
Mall  Arms  Co. 

Q.— Did  you  deal  with  them  in  18S7?  A.— I  did,  with  the 
"Penelope." 

(i. — Can  you  give  us  any  i«lea  of  your  bill  there?  A. — I 
Kliould  say  somewhere  about  f2(M>;  I  bought  some  guns. 

Q.— What  was  your  total  «'ost  of  outfitting  in  1S87— the 
"l'<'nelo|H»"?     A. — As  to  provisions,  about  fl,200. 

(J. — What  elm',  where  did  you  get  those? 

The  Commissioner  on  the  jmrt  «»f  the  riiited  States: — Have 
von  not  been  all  over  this? 


m 


-t' 


( 'i 


iIh»- 


lO 


564 

(E.  r.  Miner — CnmK.) 

Sir  ('.  n.  TupiH'r: — I  liav(>  not;  not  tlitiHe  i|iK>HliunH. 

\Vitu»'8»: — As  I  said  b«'fon',  Mr.  Eiirli'. 

Sir  ('.  II.  Tupju'r: — Dot-w  jour  Honour  nu-an  this  morning? 

Tlu'  < 'oniniitiHi«»nfr  on  tlu*  part  of  tin*  I'nilt'd  St.itfs: — Yi-h- 
tcnla.v. 

Sir  ('.  II.  Tupptr:— Xo;  I  did  not  p*  into  tlu-  outtlttinjj  of 
the  "ront'lope."  (To  wilucHH):  What  waH  the  eost  of  proviH 
ions?     A.— About  f  1,2(10. 

y. — Wliere  did  ,vou  net  them?  A. — In  Vietoria.  frtuu 
Karle,  Hauudera  and  different  «)n(>H. 

Q. — Who  else?  A. — I  thinii  I  fjot  ni.v  meals  from  flood- 
aire. 

(i.— You  include  the  meats  in  tlie  |l,2(tO?  A.— Wiien  I 
s]M'ali  of  provisions  I  mean  meats  and  K'tieeries. 

(i. — .Vnd  what  were  your  other  expenses?  A. — M.v  ani- 
-O  munition  hill  was  about  f:tr>(). 

Q. — Wliat  did  vou  pet  in  tlie  way  of  ammunition,  liow 
niucli  powder?  A. — Mv  powder  most  all  eainu'  from  Hardy 
Hall's. 

(j. — I  did  not  asl<  where  it  came  from;  but  how  mueh  did 
you  take?  A.  — Seven  or  eight  kejjs;  I  e«)uldn't  tell  to  a 
keg. 

ii. — Are  you  postiv«>  it  was  not  more  than  eight  kegs?  A. 
— Yes.  sir. 

(i.— How  many  sacks  of  buckshot?  A. — I  believe  about  'M>. 
30       il. —  How  many  primers?     A. — Ten  ov  (weTve  thousand. 

i}. — How  many  boats  had  you  on  that  cruise?  A. — I  had 
five  boats  and  a  stern  boat. 

ii. — I  suppos4>  in  making  your  estinuite  you  took  into  con- 
sideration tlie  cruise  on  which  you  were  to  go?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — It  was  a  nine  months'  cruise?  A. — P^igth  or  nine 
months'  cruise. 

(j. — How  many  shots  did  you  <-alculate  for  each  boat? 
A.— From  "(Ml  to  1,(MM». 

(j. — Is  that  the  or<linary  amount  flred  away  by  a  boat  in 
40  a  season?     .\. — .Vbout  that. 

ii. — And  how  mudi  would  you  expect  a  boat  to  bring  in  for 
Till)  or  S(MI  shots? 

Tlie  Coniniissioner  on  the  pari  of  the  Initcd  States: — That 
is  goiug  outside  of  (lie  matter  en(ir«'ly,  is  it  not? 

Sli"  t".  H.  Tapper: — I  have  n  pnrposi';  I  won't  p<>rsist  long, 
but   I  have  a  purpose  in  asking  (he  question. 

Witness: — It  depends  on  wlio  tlu'  Iniiiter  is,  there  is  such  a 
ry  dirterence  between  men  in  shooting. 

ii- — .Are  you  positive  that  you  did  estimate  for  7(M(  shots 
only  in  a  seastm?  .\. — No.  I  think  it  more  likelv  I  esfmiited 
f(»r  I, (MM). 

ii. — Are  you  positive  that  that  supply  of  powder  for  tlic 
number  of  men  and  boats  you  took,  was  the  usual  supply? 
.N  — Yes,  sir. 

'i. — You  would  be  surprised  to  learn  that  (i(MMM>  rounds 
of  ammunition  was  usually  taken? 

6t)       Mr.  Lansing;— For  how  nniiiy  sealers? 

Sir  ('.  H.  Tapper: — We  are  speaking  of  the  "Penelope" 
now. 

Witness: — I  never  took  that  much. 

ii. —  You  would  be  surprised  to  learn  that  it  w"s  taken 
among  s«'alers?     A. — I  would  Ite,  yes,  ■Mv, 


10 


30 


565 

(K.  1*.  Miller — CrosH.) 

Q. — Would  ,voii  Hiiy  iih  a  inaUor  of  fiirt  Hint  tliat  wuh  not 
tlio  aiiioiiiit  for  a  Hiiiiilar  oiitlil  to  yoiii-H  from  Victoria  for  a 
«'riiim>?  A. — I  Hlioiild  Hav  it  was  a  larp'r  amount  tlian  I 
«>v<M-  toolv;  that  it*  all  I  roiihl  mi.v. 

Q. — On  what  IniHiH  did  you  t-aU-ulatc  that  <>Htimat<'  for  f  1.- 
'2W)  worth  of  proviHiouH?     A. — I   Himplv     l)ou};ht      wiuit      1 
tluuiKht  waB  n«'«<'H8arj'  for  the  voyn};*'. 
Q. — What  numlMT  of  un'n  had  you?     A. — I  think  I  had  21. 
Q. — Did  yon  calculate  it  by  the  |1(»  allowance?     A. — Xo. 
»ir. 
Q. — That  did  not  enter  into  your  head?     A. — No.  nir. 
<i. — So  that  you  bought  your  pniviHioni*  wholly  re^ardiesH 
of  what  it  would  coKt  a  month  to  deal  in  them?     A. — Ych, 
sir. 

Q. — In  fact  yon  never  went  on  thai  eHtimate  in  outflttin^ 
a  v«'BHel?  A. — I  only  went  on  the  eHtimate  abojit  what  pro- 
viHionH  it  would  take  for  a  <-4'rtain  lent;th  of  time. 

Q. — I  wiy,  did  yon  <'ver  po  on  thiH  estimate  of  ho  much  |»er 
month  per  man  when  buying  the  provisi«)ns?  A. — Xo,  sir. 
<i. — I  understood  you  to  say  ycslerdiiy  somethiuK  about 
yonr  idea  «»f  the  "CarolenaV  sailing  <|ualitieH.  If  you  were 
convinced  that  that  vessel  was  a  jjctod  sailer  and  in  a  safe 
and  thorough  repair  in  ISSti  would  that  ;ilter  you:  opiuitui 
as  to  her  value  which  you  jjnve  in  your  examination  yester- 
day?   A. — No,  sir,  it  would  not  alter  my  ideas  as  t<»  value. 

(i. — So  that  whether  sho  was  a  good  or  a  poor  sailer  nmde 
no  ditference  in  reaching  her  value?  A. — I  think  her  value 
was  reached  in  the  way  she  could  be  used  in  a  ctTtain  busi- 
nesB. 

v^. — The  sailing  <]nalities  had  nothing  to  do  with  it  in  your 
mind?  A. — In  looking  at  the  vessel  it  was  not  a  miestion  of 
sailing  qualities,  I  should  think. 

(i. — Do  you  think  (hat  is  answering  my  question.  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  see  the  '•('arolcna"  when  she  was  attoat?    .\. 
Xo,  sir. 
Q. — Rut  if  you  discovered  that  she  was  a  good  sailer,  would 
40  it   make  anv  dilVerentc   in  tlw  opinion    von  gave  as  to  hvr 
value? 

Witness: — Well,  I  would  answer  no. 

Q. — Do  you  know  any  vessel  of  her  size  and  tonnage  that 
in  IS8ti  was  a  better  sailer,  or  better  suited  for  sealing,  I  will 
put  it?  A. — I  knew  nothing  of  her  sailing  qualities;  I 
couldn't  judge. 

Q. — Do  you  know  of  any  vessel  in  I88ti  in  Victoria  or  in 
Hie  port  of  Han  Francisco,  better  adapted  for  sealiug?      A. — 
CO   1  am  not  compett>nt  to  judge. 

Q. — Have  you  known  any  better  vessel  Mince  of  :W»  tons? 
A. — I  did  not  know  how  good  she  was;  I  couldn't  t«'ll. 

(i. — If  you  had  be.Mi  able  to  comjiare  that  vessel  with  tin* 
craft  yon  have  known  in  actual  work,  you  opinion  might  be 
•lirt'ercnt  with  regard  to  her  value?      .\  — Y«'8,  sir. 

(J.— You  will  not  undertake  to  swear  (bat  that  vessel  waa 
not  suitable  for  sealing  purposes?      .\. — No,  sir. 

Q.--Y0H  saw  her  only  in  ISSJt?      .\. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — You  nev«'r  saw  her  before?      .\. — No.  sir. 
to      Q. — She  was  in  a  very  bad  condition,  was  she  not?      A. — 
.Vs  regards  hnii  not  verv  had,  but  as  n'gards  rigging,  very 
had. 

Q. — Has  (he  climate  of  OnnalaBkn  a  good  effect  on  a  von 
sel  lying  there  without  repair  for  a  few  yearB?  A. — No, 
better  than  any  other. 

Q. — Ib  it  not  worse,  do  yon  know  anything  about  the  eRoct 
of  tlie  climat(>  of  that  region  on  a  veBsel?  .\.— The  cliniat*' 
iS  very  damp. 


H\ 

1 ' 

1 

1 

$ 

I' , 


1  r 


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.11  !' 


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lO 


$66 

(E.  r.  Mlut-r — <.'ro8H.) 

Q. — So  far  ns  alTcotinK  tlio  vt'ssrl,  tliert'  in  om-  i-llinate 
whore  a  vesHoi  will  stand  out  longer  (han  nnotlior;  vou  wili 
admit  that?      A.— No,  sir. 

Q. — Tho  rliinate,  then,  has  nothing  to  do  with  it,  in  rog'.rd 
to  its  <'fTt»ct  on  a  vesB«'l.  A. — Not  where  they  are  left  opon- 
\y  exiMwed  in  a  climate. 

Q. — Th«?  same  in  any  part  of  the  world?  A. — I  should  say 
one  climate  is  about  as  bad  ns  another. 

Q. — All  would  have  a  bad  effect,  I  sn]»pose,  on  a  vessel  h'ft 
without  care?      A.-— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  the  v»'Bsel  show  any  sign  of  any  attention  being 
paid  to  it?      A. — None  at  all. 

Q. — In  a  state  of  neglect?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — How  was  she  lying?  A. — She  was  lying  on  the  boach, 
that  is  called  a  beach,  a  flat  bank — the  water  h'ft  it,  no  tide. 

Q. — On  one  side?      A. — She  wasn't  to  the  beach. 

Q. — On  what  side  was  she  lying?  A. — When  I  saw  her 
20  sht*  was  lying  on  her  port  side. 

Q. — How  much  exiioscd?  A. — Entirely  exposed,  you  could 
walk  around  her. 

Q. — You  understood  she  had  been  there  for  some  years  I 
suppose?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — The  wat- 
er would  come  around  her  at  high  tide,  I  suppose?  A. — 
It  would. 


30 


40 


50 


60 


Q. — Were  you  there  at  high  tide?  A. — I  was  there  both 
high  and  low. 

Q. — Flow  high  did  the  water  come  up?  A. — I  should  sav 
there  was  about  three  feet  of  water,  not  to  exceed  three  fwt. 

Q. — Not  enough  to  float  her?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Now  did  you  on  these  occasions  when  you  were  master 
of  a  vessel  hunt  seals  yourself  all  the  time?  A. — Not  as 
much  as  hunters. 

Q. — Oive  me  an  idea  in  general.  A. — In  fair  weather  when 
the  vessel  didn't  have  to  Ite  looked  after,  a  good  fair  day  and 
no  fear  of  losing  the  boats,  I  used  to  go  out  and  hunt. 

Q. — You  were  a  pretty  good  shot?  A. — I  had  pretty  good 
success. 

Q. — How  many  would  you  miss?  A. — I  never  kept  account 
of  my  misses. 

Q. — Cannot  ative  me  the  proportion  of  your  misses,  the  per- 
centage? .\. — Well,  my  missen  depend  on  how  the  shots 
were  taken. 

Q. — I  do  not  care  how  they  were  tak«'n,  as  a  rule  what  per- 
centage would  you  lose  tliat  you  shot  at?  A. — I  think  pro- 
bably eight  or  ten  per  cent. 

Q. — Would  you  swear  to  that?  A — I  am  speaking  now 
as  my  general  opinion;  I  have  never  kept  any  record. 

Q. — Rut  you  will  not  say  positively  that  you  lost  eight  per 
cent,  of  those  you  shot?  A. — No  man  could  say  unless  he 
kept  figures. 

Q.— I  want  to  ask  you  as  a  matter  of  fact  whether  you  have 
not  said,  in  the  town  of  Victoria,  on  more  than  one  occasion, 
that  you  did  not  lose  more  than  two  per  cent  of  those  you 
shot.      A. — I  never  remember  having  said  it. 

Q. — Will  you  say  ponitively  that  yon  have  not  on  several 
occasions  claimed,  in  the  city  of  Victoria,  that  you  did  not 
lose  more  than  two  per  cent,  of  those  you  shot?  A. — I  never 
have  claimed  that. 

Q. — Is  it  possible  you  have  made  that  claim?  A. — I  don't 
think  it  is  possible. 


5^.7 
(K.  P.  MiiU'i— CiosH.) 

Q. — You  are  not  Hiire  nw  ,voii  captain?  A. — It  can  Im; 
Htatt>d  in  so  mdny  dilTorcnt  wayH.  You  niiKht  say  of  what 
seal  I  had  shot  and  lost,  and  what  I  had  shot  at  altogether, 
not  B"nowing  whether  they  were  killed  or  not. 

Q. — I  will  put  the  question  again?  Are  you  sure  that  you 
have  not  said  in  Victoria  that  you  lost  no  more  than  two  per 
cent,  of  the  seals  you  shot  at? 

10  Mr.  Dickinson: — May  it  please  your  Honours,  that  ques- 
tion is  never  asked  except  as  an  impeaching  question,  and  he 
has  to  name  the  person  to  whom  he  said  it.  The  fact  that 
some  boast  was  made,  that  when  not  under  oath  the  witness 
lias  said  something  on  a  matter  not  materially  at  issue,  is  not 
competent  on  cross-examination,  unless  they  fix  the  time  and 
place.  It  is  only  nnterial  to  ask  such  questions  when  it  is 
proposed  to  im]>each  the  witness. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — Do 
:o  yon  claim.  Sir  Charles,  that  a  question  of  that  sort  is  very 
material?      It  seems  to  n>e  hardly  a  point  on  which  you  can 
contradict  him. 

Sir  C.  H.  Tupi>er:'— I  hope  to  bring  it  much  nearer  the  case 
in  the  end;  but  it  is  impossible  for  me  to  disclose  fnmi  time 
to  time  the  exact  bearing  of  (piestions. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Iler  Majesty: — Of  coiirhe 
you  cannot  contradict  it,  unless  you  show  the  pn^'ise  time 
!ind  place.  I  think  a  cross-examiner  sometimes  aslis  a  ques- 
tion, the  answer  to  which  may  not  be  competent  to  him.  It 
is  not  every  question  you  ask  you  can  g«'t  an  answer  to  th.it 
you  can  contradict. 

Sir  C.  H.  Tupper:— I  am  aware  of  that,  and  I  am  not  far 
mmrt  from  my  leanied  friend.  I  am  willing  to  suffer  the 
consequences  <»f  the  way  I  may  jtut  a  (jucstion. 

To  witness:  Captain,  you  are  not  a  braggart;  I  suppose 
you  an'  not  in  the  habit  of  going  around  and  talking  through 
your  hat  about  sealing?     \. — I  don't  know. 

Q. — You  are  not  in  the  habit  of  blowing  your  horn  too 
much? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Sir  Charles,  who  will  swear  to  that  on  the 
stand? 

Sir  C.  H.  Tupper:— I  think  the  Captain  is  not  that  style  of 
man,  and  I  am  willing  to  say  so.  His  modesty  has  been  most 
<'lmrming  I  think  in  regard  to  his  Khooling. 

To  witness: — Let  me  know  what  you  decide  to  say  to  that 
i|UC8tion,  whether  as  a  matter  of  fact  you  will  deny  that  yo\i 
have  in  Victoria  on  seveiiil  occasions  claimed  that  you  lost 
no  more  than  two  per  cent,  of  the  seals  you  shot  at?  A. — I 
wouldn't  want  to  deny  it,  because  it  might  have  be«'n  put  in 
!i  different  way  from  what  I  take  it  now. 

(J. — Now,  Captain,  I  want  to  ask  you  another  question.  I 
have  been  speaking,  and  you  have  been  answering  in  refer- 
ence to  seals  you  shot  at.  Now,  of  seals  you  actually  shot, 
did  vou  as  a  matter  of  fact  lose  many' 


;o 


40 


55 


(o 


The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — Now, 
do  you  call  him  as  one  »f  your  six  experts? 

Sir  C.  H.  Tupper: — I  am  cross-examining  him,  and  taking 
iidvnntage  of  any  candour  he  may  exliibil  in  the  box. 

Mr.  Di«kins(m: — I  passed  him  on  those  qnestiims. 

Sir  C.  H.  Tupj)er:— I  think  I  am  entitled  to  get  what  I  can 
fioui  this  witness.     I)  may  seem  a  immIIous  attem]it  on  my 


ii 


i\:y 


M 


':!'   -)•: 


mm 


p 

'  WW 

i 

1 ' 

■"') 

■i  i 

ill 
■'i 

lii 

'i!«'i.' 


10 


20 


30 


40 


so 


60 


568 

(DisfUBHiun.) 

I»irt,  hut  I  think  th«>  Ciiptiiiii  Ih  pniiK  to  he  <|uit(>  nintlid  mu\ 
tiHHiHt  liotli  roiinH4>l  !in<1  the  <*nnrt. 

TIm'  Coinmissioncr  on  the  piirt  of  the  Tnltod  8tnlPH: — Do 
yon  citll  liini  118  one  of  yonr  «'XiH'rtH? 

Sir.  V.  II.  Tnj^iM'r: — I  have  not  called  this  witnoHS,  he  in  not 
mine. 

The  ronuniNHioner  on  the  jiart  of  the  Cniled  Htati's: — 
Should  .vou  examine  him  aH  one  of  .vour  experts? 

Sir  C.  II.  Tu|»per: — Of  eourm»  I  munt  defer  to  the  <'«»urt.  I 
Hubmit  that  queHtion  in  ontHfl-examination.  and  I  proiM>He  to 
ask  him  that  if  I  am  permitted. 

Mr.  I'eterH: — We  Ruhmit  to  the  rommissioners,  that  at  all 
events  aeeordin};  to  tlie  praeti«"e  in  our  cttui'tH,  when  the  wit- 
ness is  put  on  tiie  stand  hy  one  sidi',  the  other  side  ean  cross- 
examine  that  witness  on  any  question  material  to  the  case, 
wheth«'r  oiH'ned  in  a  direct  examination  or  not. 

The  ('<miniissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — Do 
you  not  se«',  Mr.  IV'ters.that  whaiever  may  be  the  rule  of 
your  courts,  if  you  attempt  to  apjily  it  here  you  thus  avoid 
the  rule  we  have  laid  down  that  only  six  witnesses  shall  he 
examined  on  a  side  on  that  question.  I  can  nny  nothin;; 
further  about  it.  I  have  fjiven  you  my  intimation  of  what  I 
dtH'm  this  cross-examination  would  anumnt  to. 

Mr.  Dickins«>n: — I  sit  at  the  feet  (»f  my  lenrne<l  friend,  tin- 
senior  counsel  of  (Ireat  Itritain,  as  to  the  practice  on  this 
side  of  th»»  line;  but  I  have  had  the  honor  t«»  appear  in  some 
of  the  courts,  and  I  do  not  understand,  and  I  did  not  tlien 
learn,  that  the  rule  was  as  he  states  it.  I  have  understood 
that  a  witness  put  on  the  stand  in  a  case  may  be  examined 
by  the  otiu'r  side  as  to  the  wlxde  case,  but  not  cross-examin- 
ed. If  examined  on  anything  which  is  outside  of  the  direct 
examination,  counsel  makes  him  his  own  wtness.  I  may  not 
have  stated  the  ruh'  correctly,  as  I  nuiy  have  forgotten  and 
misunderstood  it ;  but  I  understood  that  t<»  be  the  rule  on 
this  side  as  well  as  in  p]ngland. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — I  am 
Itioking  at  the  matter  practically.  This  witm'ss  «<a 
cross-examination  is  asked  for  tlie  first  time  a  ques 
iion  as  to  which  we  have  limited  the  nunib(>r  of  witnesses. 
If  he  is  examined  upon  that  question,  the  other  sid*>  may  re- 
examine him,  and  he  stands  as  a  wiin(>ss.  If  this  can  be 
don«>  under  the  cover  of  <-ross-examination,  every  witness 
(troduced  liere  may  be  examined  on  this  <|uestion  witliout 
limit,  and  the  rule  made  by  the  Commissioners  is 
iivoided.  I  will  not  say  evaded,  because  that  may  be  con- 
sidered an  unsuitable  word,  but  avoided.  I  can  say  notli 
ing  more  about  it.  So  far  as  I  am  concerned,  and  in  tlie 
absence  of  an  opjioil  unity  to  confer  with  my  learned  asso- 
ciate, I  must  leave  this  to  the  judgment  and  good  sense  of  tlie 
counsel. 

Sir  C.  II.  Tiipper: — With  that  appeal,  if  j'our  Honour  will 
jtermit  me,  I  am  perfectly  willing  to  settle  this  on  the  basis 
«»n  which  I  a|iproached  the  (|Ucstion.  I  have  a  distinct  recol- 
lecti<m,  whicli  can  be  corrt'cted  by  reference  to  tlu>  notes,  of 
this  feature  of  the  examination  being  prewnted  by  my  learn- 
ed friend.  Mr.  Dickinson.  I  made  a  note  to  cross-examine  on, 
and  approached  it  with  that  inlenti(m.  If  the  notes  do  not 
bear  me  out,  and  I  have  erred,  I  am  certainly  willing  to  defer 
to  the  court,  and  avoid  for  the  moment  going  into  this  sub 
ject  in  this  way;  but  I  certainly  claim  the  right  that  if  tlie 
notes  show  as  I  am  certain  tliey  will,  that  my  learned  friend 
went  into  this  feature  of  the  case,  I  claim  the  right  to  cross- 
examine  fully  on  the  subject,  and  nothing  that  his  Honour, 


569 

(IMm-usHiun.) 


30 


tlu'  (^(MiiiniHHioiu'r  on  the  part  of  lli<>  I'uitt'd  HttitoH  Iiiih  hhU\, 
in  in<'(tn8iHtt<nt  witli  tliat  iind<>r  (linHC  rirciimBtHiifOH.  I  there- 
fore iiHk  that  the  notes  Hlioiild  he  looked  up,  an  it  \h  a  Hiibjeet 
of  importiinee,  and,  if  tlie  not<>H  show  that  he  wan  examined, 
I  tliink  I  will  be  ]K>rinitted  to  erot«H-exnmine  him. 

Mr.  Diekinson: — It  was  yesterday  afternoon     when     this 
qu«>fltion  came  up,  and  p(>ndinf;  the  dtH-lsion  of  the  Commis- 
10  sioners  on  this  question,  I  think  they  will  remember  I  spec- 
ially said  that  I  waived  that  line  of  examination. 

Hir  C.  II.  Tupper: — There  are  five  or  six  answers  down  on 
my  not«'s,  before  we  reaclie<l  that  stage.  I  recollect  the  oc- 
casion to  which  my  learned  friend  refers;  but  I  again  say 
that  if  these  answers  are  there  in  «>vidi"nce,  every  ivason  of 
justitv  would  indicate  that  ther«>  should  Im>  a  full  crossex- 
amination  upon  them,  and  I  think  my  h'arned  friend  will 
agnn*  with  me.  if  that  be  so. 

20  The  Cimimissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — Last 
night,  the  witness  answered  some  qm'sticms  bearing  upon  the 
Muitter,  and  we  determined  what  we  would  do,  namely,  let  it 
stand  over  till  moniing.  After  the  announcement  made  this 
morning  by  my  learnod  associate,  nothing  was  said  by  us 
siH'citi<'ally  relating  to  that  matter.  We  did  not  determine 
the  bearing  of  our  decision  this  morning  u|)on  the  testimony 
that  took  place  last  night.  Might  this  not  be  a  fair  solutiim 
of  it?  If  the  eviden^-e  refenvd  to  last  night  beai-s  upon  the 
general  question  that  we  are  considering,  might  it  not  be 
reasonable  that  Sir  Charles  should  cross-examine  upon  it, 
and,  of  course,  Mr.  Dickinson  re-examine  upon  that,  and  if 
necessary  that  could  b<*  a  seventh  witness  under  that  view. 
We  might  hereafter  determine  whether  this  witness  shall  be 
treated  as  one  of  the  witnesses  on  the  part  of  Great  Hritain 
or  not;  but  if  it  wants  to  make  use  of  a  witness  called  by 
the  other  side  its  success  might  not  b«»  very  great,  and  we 
might  conclude  hen-after  that  the  witness  had  been  adojtttnl 
iis  one  of  the  number  of  witnesses  permitted  to  be  called 
by  that  side.  We  might  get  over  it  in  that  way  for  the  pres- 
ent, and  in  the  end  there  miglit  not  be  any  serious  question 
at  all.  If  the  evidence  last  night  when  looked  at  shows  thiif 
the  matter  was  gone  into  by  Mr.  Dickinson,  and  it  still  stands 
in  the  notes,  of  course  it  would  be  open  in  the  ordinary  way 
to  cross-examination,  unless  Mr.  Dickinson  asks  that  it  be 
stricken  out. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — The  questions  were  preliminary,  leading 
tiji  to  this  when  the  question  arose,  and  I  would  prefer  to 
iiiive  thos«'  ])reliminary  (picstions  stricken  out;  because,  aft(>r 
5°  the  ruling  of  tlie  court  this  morning,  we  would  pii'fer  to  se- 
lect the  six  witnesses  before  we  would  be  bound  by  the  ones 
we  put  on. 

Sir  C.  n.  Tupper: — I  quite  agree,  if  that  be  acceptable  to 
the  (Commissioners,  that  the  (>xamination  of  this  witness  so 
far  as  regards  hunting  the  seal  and  seal  life,  be  8trick«>n  out. 
I  (luite  agree  to  stop  my  examination;  but  I  want  to  call  my 
IcaiTied  friend's  attention  to  the  fact  that  he  went  on  in  re- 
(jiird  to  the  scent  of  the  seal,  the  wildntn^s  of  the  seal,  and 
to  all  those  questions  of  natural  history,  and  how  a  seal  was  ap- 
proached— a  vast  amount  of  examin(i<m.  it  seems  to  me  to 
Im'  on  the  same  footing  exactly  as  the  risk  of  losing  seals  in 
Hhooting. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Lcr  me  refresh  my  learned  friend's  memory 
Mild  the  memory  of  the  Commissioners  on  this  point.  The 
questions  proposed  to  be  put  here  relate  to  th<'  perwmnl  ex- 
IM'Hcnce  of  this  witness  as  to  the  number  of  seals  he  lost 


40 


..1 


nil: 


i;  ■ 


ll- 


■ji; 


fii'^ 


''\\\l\\v., 


lO 


20 


(l>i8«-UHHi«>Il.) 

wliPD  Hliootin);.  VtMir  lIonoiirH  will  rfini>iiibcr  the  tt>Htiiii<iny 
that  has  been  g\vvn  that  when  too  far  dlHtant  from  the  xeals 
to  be  (iur(>  of  K<'ttin|K  them  the  witneHH  Huid  he  did  not  shoot 
at  all. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  ller  Majesty: — Was  not 
there  something  said  like  this:  "Is  that  the  reason  why  yon 
proved  Buch  a  good  shot?" 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Yes,  your  Honour,  but  the  question  as  to 
the  number  of  seals  that  are  shot  by  this  witness  thnt  he 
gets  was  abandoned  incidentally  on  the  question  coining  U|i: 
hut  the  fact  that  he  did  not  shoot  was  brought  out.  and  tiie 
question  is  in  here.  As  to  what  the  conditions  are  und«>r 
which  he  would  shoot  or  would  not  shoot,  that  question 
was,  if  the  seal  is  to(»  far  distant,  so  that  yoi;  s(>e  there  is  no 
chance  of  getting  him  vou  do  not  shoot  .u  all.  Ther<-  1  left 
it. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — I  sup- 
|>nqe  the  reason  for  not  shooting  when  su  far  away  is  the  pro- 
bability of  not  getting  them? 

Mr.  Dickinson :— Thnt  is  it. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States:— There 

was  no  question  raised  as  to  the  cross-examination  down  to 

the  last  question  Sir  Charles  Tapper  asked,  tliat  is  to  si.v,  as 

to  the  number  of  seals  the  witness  shot  out  of  those  he  flred 

30  at. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — The  number  of  seals  lie  gets  that  he  llred 
at. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  T'nited  States:  Xo. 
the  number  he  shoots  that  he  tires  at,  growing  out  of  tlie 
question  whether  he  was  a  good  shot.  There  is  no  objection 
to  the  cross-examination  so  far. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — But  I  distinctly  abandoned  going  into  that 
4'3  question. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  Uuil.d  States:— If 
it  is  understood  all  around  that  this  question  up.^n  which  the 
Commissioners  ruled  is  not  to  he  opened  up  on  cross  examina- 
tion, unless  it  is  opened  up  on  the  direct  examination,  and 
Mr.  Dickinson  strikes  out  of  the  notes  tlio.oe  few  questions 
which  raised  the  discnslon  last  night,  does  not  that  dispose 
of  the  matter  for  the  present? 


50 


60 


Sir  C.  H.  Tupper: — May  I  ask  in  all  earnestness  how  .ire 
we  to  distinguish  that  particular  question  of  tin?  exaniinatinn 
of  my  learned  friend  from  those  which  follow  all  for  the 
same  purpose?  My  h>arned  friend  was  exco'dingly  candid 
yesterday.  He  announced  in^fore  going  into  this,  his  object. 
and  he  explained  that  he  proposed  to  sho\v  before  this  invest! 
gation  was  over  that  the  Sea  might  be  lite'ally  teeininfr  with 
seals,  yet  it  by  no  means  followed  that  Ix-caiisi'  seals  wt-re 
there  and  seen  in  great  numbers  a  vessel  would  catch  one 
solitary  seal,  and  following  along  to  demonstrate  that  he 
asked  this  question,  it  was  only  one  of  a  dozen  01  two  to  show 
the  risks,  tlu'  venturesome  cliaiacter  «)f  the  whole 
buRlnesR,  thnt  it  was  a  speculation.  After  that  he  goes  on 
to  show  that  those  seals  are  very  wary,  that  on  the  appronch 
of  ^an  they  disappear,  that  they  can  scent  the  vessel  and  the 
hunters,  and  di.<»appear.  1  fail  to  nndi'rstand  how  a  part  of 
this  examination  of  this  witness  relative  to  seal  life  is  to 
stand  and  the  other  parts  exclud<Hl.  I  am  willing  to  take  eitluT 
line,  that  is.  to  cross  examine  fully  on  the  subject  genenilly, 


i  f  ;^ 


57  < 

thiHciiHHiou.j 

or  not  to  crosB-fxainiiu',  and  if  I  do  not  croaH  ezuniine,  I  tlmll 
cxiM'ct  that  nil  this  cvidcnoo  aft<>r  we  reach  that  point  about 
tlu!  shooting  will  drop  out— of  course  the  evidence  of  this 
witness  as  to  the  habiis  of  the  seals. 

Mr.  Peters: — 1  would  not  have  taken  the  objection  jester 
day  had  it  not  been  that  we  were  stopped  giving  that  class 
of  evidence,  and  perhaps  rightly  so.  The  Commissioners 
■  ^)  now  say  that  on  that  point  tliey  will  hear  a  certain  amount 
of  evidence,  and  to  that  restriction  I  have  no  objection.  I 
have  a  number  of  witneses  here  that  I  pro|M»8e  to  examine 
on  this  point  if  my  objection  is  not  sustained.  It  cannot  do 
any  great  harm  whether  we  get  it  from  this  witness,  who 
seems  to  be  a  man  of  exp«'rience.  or  from  other  witnesses 
We  would  have  examined  some  of  our  own  previous  witness- 
es on  this  point,  and  T  am  not  quite  sure  whether  they  are 
obtainable  to  appear  again. 

20  The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — It 
does  not  make  any  particular  difference  in  the  mere  exami- 
nation of  this  witness,  but  it  does  make  a  great  differen«:e 
whether  we  art»  to  go  on  with  the  understanding  that  a  wit- 
ness called  by  either  party  may  be  examined  under  <'olor  of 
cross-examination  on  this  point,  and  then  re-examined  by  the 
other  side  on  the  same  point. 

Mr.  Peter.: — You  can  judge  fairly  what  will  happen  from 
what  has  h  ippened.      If  I  mistake  not,  this  is  the  flrst  wit- 
jo  n*-'ss  wc  ha\  e  examined  on  this  point. 

Sir  C.  H.  Tupper: — May  I  propose  that  we  adjourn  this 
cross-examination?  It  is  a  most  important  subject  in  the 
opinion,  apparently,  of  both  sides,  and  while  we  are  most 
anxious  to  be  fair  to  any  suggestion  from  the  Bench,  I  am 
Kure  the  Commissioners  will  understand  that  we  are  embar- 
assed  by  a  sense  of  what  we  think  necessary  to  be  done  In 
connection  with  the  case  in  our  hands.  It  is  possible  that 
by  conference  and  looking  at  these  notes  we  shall  agree  as  to 
^o  what  shall  go  out.  Rut.  standing  here  now,  I  am  individual- 
ly embarassed  in  regard  to  the  part  to  be  eliminated.  I  re- 
fer to  the  question  of  seal  life,  and  to  go  into  that  and  do  it 
justice  I  want  to  follow  very  closely  what  I  understood  to  be 
the  examination.  Perhaps  after  a  conference  we  could  agree 
to  strike  out  a  large  number  of  questions  of  this  character, 
nnd.  if  so.  my  examination  might  stop  here  altogether.  On 
the  other  hand,  1  mav  ask  the  Court  to  permit  me  to  go  fully 
into  it. 

,Q      The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  Tnited  States: — I  see 

'      no  objection  to  examination  on  s<'al  Ijfe,  except  on  the  qucK- 

tion  as  to  what  projtortion  of  seals  which  are  shot  are  lost. 

Mr.  Dickinson  —By  this  witness? 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States:— By 
this  witness. 

Sir  C.  H.  Tapper:— That  is  one  of  the  most  imjwrtant  parts 
of  seal  life  as  affects  pelagic  sealing. 

^10       T|„,  rommissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Can 
you  not  prove  it  by  your  own  witness? 

Sir  C.  H.  Tupper: — Surely  we  are  not  debarred  from  get- 
ting It  from  a  liostile  witness? 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States;— Is 
that  the  only  point  you   want  to  (Toss-cxamine  on? 

Sir  C.   11    Tapper:— S.-al  life. 


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20 


TIu'  CuiniiiiKHioiuM-  on  tl»'  pnrt  «>f  tin-  I'liitcd  HtatcH:- 
i8  u  InrKV  question. 

Sir  C.  H.  Tnppor: — And  lu'hinit'  wnHnR. 

Th<?  ComniiHHioni'r  on  the  part  of  Uw  Mnjt'Bt.v: — If  .you 
feel  very  8tronply  upon  it  it  Ih  o|M'n  for  .vou  to  Ha.v  that  tliiw 
may  b<»  adduced  by  thiB  witneHH.  Ordinarily  one  docH  not  j;o 
into  the  oppoHite  camp  to  prove  hiH  rnse,  but  it  Ih  for  y(»ur- 
self  to  Bay. 

Rir  C  H.  Tupper: — I  «piito  nnderntand  the  riBit  tliat  at- 
taches to  pnttini;  these  questionB. 

Tlie  rominiBBioner  on  tlie  part  of  Her  Majesty: — The  rule 
about  croBs-exauii nation  witli  whi«-h  I  liave  been  familiar 
in  most  of  the  courtH,  \h  that  croBH-examinntion  is  not  ordin 
nrily  contintHl  to  mntterB  that  are  gone  into  on  direct  exam- 
ination. The  defendant,  for  iuBtance,  in  moBi  of  our  courtH 
— although  the  rule  is  not  uniform — Ib  not  allowed  by  a 
cro8B-examinati<m  of  a  witnesB  on  the  plaintilTB  Bide,  to 
prove  matters  the  affirmative  of  which  is  ujmn  him  by  the  is- 
sue that  he  has  raised  on  his  pleadings.  Ho  far  as  a  mere 
matter  of  traverse  I  think  the  affirmative  is  on  the  plaintilT 
and  he  cannot  onlinarily  croBs-examine  to  prove  it.  I  do 
not  Ijuow  whether  that  is  the  rule  of  the  I'nited  States 
courts  or  not. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  T'nited  States: — The 
30  rule  with  us  is  a  little  more  strict,  but  1  suppose  that  here 
on  account  of  the  inconvenience  «»f  getting  witnesses  bacl< 
we  would  not  be  so  strict. 

The  rommissioner  on  the  jmrt  of  Her  Majesty: — Ordinar- 
ily you  are  not  allowed  by  cross-examination  to  go  into  mat- 
ters the  atflnnative  of  which  is  incumbent  uinin  the  plaintifT. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  jmrt  of  the  I'nited  States: — The 
only  queston  as  I  understand  bears  upon  the  proportion  of 
seals  actually  shot  by  him  and  lost.      You  say.  Sir  riiarles. 
40  you  want  to  croBsexamine  on  the  general  question  of  pel- 
agic sealing.       There  is  a  very  bmad  field  in  that. 

Sir  V.  H.  TupiK'r:— I  admit  that. 

The  OommisBioner  on  the  part  of  the  Tnited  Stales: — I  we 
the  propriety  of  your  suggestion  to  suspend  the  termination 
of  the  matti'r  until  you  examine  the  notes  and  confer  with 
counsel  on  the  other  side.  That  seems  to  be  a  prop»'r  sug- 
gestion. Can  you.  in  your  cross-examination,  pass  from  this 
subject  now  and  leave  it  in  abeyance? 

Sir  C.  H.  Tupper: — 1  am  at  the  end  of  my  general  cross- 
evamination.  and  the  only  notes  I  have  are  on  questions  sug 
gested  by  my  leamed  friend's  examination  as  to  seal  hunt- 
ing and  Feal  life.  Perhaps  this  witness  might  stand  down 
until  we  confer  together  and  see  if  we  cannot  agree. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — 1 
suppose  the  notes  would  settle  a  good  deal  of  what  has  bwn 
diBcuBS(>d. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  rnit«d  States: — Onr 
g«'neral  con<'lusion  that  we  announced  this  morning  was  with 
a  view  of  restricting  the  examination  into  this  inquiry.  The 
rule  we  laid  down  did  not  cover  the  case  of  the  cros-sexam- 
ination,  although  the  spirit  of  it  might  very  well  apply  to 
the  cBBe  of  cross-examining  a  witness  upon  the  matter. 

Sir  C.  H.  Tui)per: — I  quite  agi-ee  and  it  was  for  that  r«>a8(m 
that  we  agrwd  to  drop  everything  in  relation  to  it. 


50 


60 


lO 


20 


573 
(I-:.  (".  IJaktT— IMirct.) 

Tlu'  <"oinmiHHi»MH'i'  on  tin-  part  of  H«i'  Maj«'Hty: — Wln'tluT 
vuu  croHH-cxatuiu*'  t)iii4  witncNH  on  th*'  matter  would  Htrictly 
(It-pt'iid  OH  th«»  point  .vou  have  raim'd  uh  to  wlivtlu'r  It  was 
);on«>  into  laHt  nitrlit  and  w)i«'tlit>r  tlic  dirwt  cxuuiinutiou 
would  asHiHt  Ml*.  DictvinHon  on  tun  Hide. 

Sir  <'.  H.  TupiM'i-: — I  (piitt;  undi'i-Htaud  tluit. 

Till'  (*onnniH8ion«'r  on  tin*  part  of  Ih'r  Maj«'Ht.v: — Ilorc'aftt'r 
you  <<ould  not  «roHH-('xaniint>  n  witncRH  on  niattcrH  not  t{one 
into  h,v  liiH  dir«M-t  examination  without  that  witniKH  beint; 
ix-i-ounted  a  witni'ttH  on  your  Nid«'.  In  thiH  t-aw'  you  rannot 
do  it  unlt'8H  it  app<'arK  Htiii-tly  t«»  ariwe  out  of  the  direct  ex- 
aminatiou  of  Mr.  DickiuHon. 

Sir  C  U.  Tapper: — I  quite  agree. 

The  < 'onimiHHioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  Slates: — My 
h-arntMl  asHoeiate  and  I  agree  exactly  on  the  matter.  The 
exminatiou  of  the  nuteu  may  dispose  of  the  trouble. 


Kdgar  Crow  llaker  was  ealbnl  as  a  witneus  on  the  part  of 
the  I'nited  States  and  dulv  sworn. 


Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Dickinson. 

(i. — Mr.  Itaker,  how  long    have    you     lived 
30  about?       A.— Sime  the  l(»th  of  April.  74. 


in     \'ictoria, 


(i. — Are  you  secretary  of  what  is  called  the  Pilot  Board? 
A. — I  am  secretary  of  th«'  Victoria  and  Esquinialt  IMIot  Au- 
thority. 

ti. — IIow  long  have  you  been  so?  .\. — lU  years,  I  should 
tiiink. 

(i.— Then  you  were  in   18^3.  1MH4,  ISHo  and   1886?       A.— 
Yes,  certainly. 
i-i. — Does  that  association  own  pilot  boats"      A. — No. 
Q.— Did  it  own  pilot  boats  in  1880?      A.— I  think  not.      I 
40  think  there  was  one  occasion  uiion  which  I  was  authorized 
by  the  Pilot  ('kimmissioners  to  ])urcha8e  a  pilot  vessel,  put 
her  in  my  name  in  trust  lor  certain  of  the  pilots,  who  at  that 
time  were  compelled  to  l.uve  the  registration  of  a  certain 
tonnage  for  a  license  pilot,  and  for  that  purpose  only, 
(i.— What  was  that  boat?      A.— The  "Carolena." ' 
Q. — When  was  it  that  they    owned    her?       A. — I    should 
tliink  as  far  back  as  1877. 

Q.— And  they  owned  her  in  1881  and  1885?  A.— That  is 
more  than  I  can  tell.  My  memory  does  not  serve  me.  I  do 
5°  remember  distinctly  purcliasing  tlie  vessel,  and  I  ha])pen  to 
know  the  date  upon  which  I  purchased  her  and  what  I  gave 
for  her.  But  when  she  was  disposed  of  or  at  what  figure  I 
know  nothing  about  her. 

Q. — I  am  not  asking  these  particulars  at  all,  Mr.  Baker. 
Tiiat  may  be  arrived  at  in  some  other  way.  But  you  did 
dispose  of  the  "Carolena."  did  you?      A.— Sold  her? 

Q.— Yes;  as  trustee  for  the  I'ilot  Board?  A.— Yes,  upon 
the  purchasing  of  a  larger  vessel. 

'jo       Mr.  Peters: — Thei-e  will  be  no  cross-examination. 
The  examination  of  the  witness  closed. 


William  Munsie,  already  sworn  and  examined,  was  recalled 
ns  ii  witness  for  the  Fnited  States. 

Direct  examiuation  by  Mr.  Dickinson; 


1  )', 


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1:1 


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20 


3«3 


574 
iWilliiun  MiiiiHic— Hcciilh'H.) 

g. — Mr.  AliiiiHi*',  (lu  yon  kuuw  a  iiiau  b.v  tli<>  uiuiic  f»r  Hi-rc 
iiult — Mifkac'l  Huri'iiult?      A. — \\m, 

Q. — With  Huiiie  ludiuu  bluod  iu  liiui?  A. — I  do  uut  knuw 
that  be  haH. 

Q. — Dot's  be  keep  au  botel  or  a  tavern  or  au  iuu  at  Cbiyo- 
quot?      A. — lie  keeps  an  botel  at  AllK-rui. 

(i. — I'pon  tbo  Vaneouver  eoast?       A. — Yes,  sir. 
y. — Ih  tbat  near  iMayoipiot?       A. — Yes. 
Q.— Where  is  this  man?    A.— lie  is  in  town,  1  believe. 
Q. — Is  he  here  now?      A. — Yes. 

Q.— Whereabouts  is  lie?  A.— 1  eannot  tell  .vou  where  he 
is  now. 

Q. — Where  did  yon  last  see  him?      A.— I  saw  him  in  mv 
bouse. 
Q.— When?      A.— This  nioruinR. 

Q.— Did  be  n^ny  at  .vour  bonse  last  nijjbt?      A.— He  did. 
Q-— r>o  .vou  know  that  we  had  a  subpoena  out  for  bim? 
A. — 1  did  not. 

Q— Vou  took  him  in  a  back.  I  think.  Jasf  nijjbt?  A.— 
Yes 

Q.— WTtnt  time  of  the  nijfbt?      A.— About  the  time  the 
"Tees"  left  for  the  coast. 
Q.— You  were  down  at  the  "Tees,"  I  think?      A.— Yes. 
Q.— At  what  lime  of  the  nlubt?      A.— I  presume  !(►  o'eloek. 
Q. — Did  you  have  this  man  with  vou?      A. — He  was  there. 
Q.— Down  there?      A.— Yes. 

Q.— What  did  you  take  him  there  for?  A.— I  did  not  take 
bim  there. 

Q — Down  at  the  "Tees,"  did  not  vou  take  him  in  a  carriaKe 
there?      A.— I  did  not. 

Q. — You  telegraphed  this  man  to  come  down,  did  vou  not? 
A.— I  did. 

Q. — You  swear  that  y«)u  did  not  know  we  were  after  him 
with  a  subpoena?      \. — I  did  not. 

Q. — You  did  not  take  him  to  the  boat  to  send  him  back 
to  the  coast?  A. — No;  Captain  Roberts  took  bim  to  the  boat 
to  sign  some  cheques. 

Q. — What  hour  of  the  morning  was  this?  A. — It  was  last 
oigbt. 

Q. — Y'ou  were  with  him  at  the  boat,  were  you?  A. — Capt. 
Irving  and  I  went  down  to  the  boat  together,  and  he  was 
there.      He  was  very  ill,  and  I  took  him  to  the  house. 

Q. — Cannot  you  give  me  the  hour?      A. — About  10  o'clock. 
Q. — You  were  not  there  as  late  as  1  o'clock  this  morning? 
A. — I  was  not. 

Q. — Does  not  the  boat  sail  at  10  o'clock?  A. — I  do  not 
know  what  time  she  sailed.  I  did  not  wait  until  the  time 
she  sailed;  I  left. 

Q. — Will  you  swear  you  were  not  there  as  lato  as  mid 
night?  A. — I  will.  Captain  Irving.  Captain  Roberts  and 
myself  were  there. 

Q. — Where  did  you  take  bim  in  a  carriage?  A.— I  took 
bim  to  my  house. 

Q. — Before  or  after  the  boat  left?  A.— Before  the  boat 
left;  about  10  o'clock. 

Q. — Now  when  you  were  down  at  the  boat — you  know  the 
6o  man  who  serves  processes  for  the  Ignited  States?      A. — That 
serves  processes? 

Q. — Yes?  .\.— 1  do  not  know  him;  I  do  not  know  any  man 
that  is  in  your  employ. 

Q. — Will  you  produce  this  man  Rereault  in  court?  A.— 
If  you  have  a  summons  for  him  1  presume  you  could  produce 
him. 

Q. — AVill  von  keep  bim  at  your  lionse  until  we  can  sub- 
poena liini?      .\.— T  do  not  know  if  he  is  there  now. 


40 


50 


57 


iWilliitiii  MiiiiHic — Kn-iillfd.) 

A. 


11«-  iiiiiy  Ih-  or 
T«'ch"  luHt   oiK>>t? 


10 


20 


30 


40 


iO 


6o 


H. — You  ha VI'  not  tli*'  imioti'Mt  Idi-a? 
lu'  may  uut. 

Q. — Yuii  know  111'  (U«l  not  go  on  tli«' 
A.— Hi'  did  nut. 

Q. — Will  you  produrc  hlui?  A.— V«'8,  I  will,  or  rotUiT  I 
will  I'udeuvur  to. 

CroHHi'xaniiuation  hy  .Mr.  reters. 

Q. — You  wt-ru  aukcd  about  thJH  nuin  Hvifuult,  lie  livi'H 
ill  Albt-rni,  dooM  he?       \. — Yi'm. 

y. — And  you  telegraphed  him  to  come  down?      A. — I  did. 

y. — .\nd  he  came  down  here  when?  A. — YeHterdny  af- 
leruoon  some  time,  ho  I  underHtaud. 

Q. — I  believe,  aH  a  matter  of  fact,  you  have  bim  itubpoen- 
lied  aH  a  witneHH?      A. — Ych. 

Q.— And  he  will  be  here?      .V.— YeH. 

y. — And  you  alwayn  intended  he  Hhould  be?  .\. — I  in- 
I ended  he  nliould  be;  lie  Ih  sub])oenaed. 

Q. — LuNt  nipht  it  a|>|H'arH  the  nmn  liad  come  on  bin  jour- 
iity  and  wan  not  well?  .\. — He  had  a  wvere  cold  which 
settled  in  bin  cheHt  and  it  appearH  he  had  bet'n  drinking  u 
liltle  and  I  anked  him  to  come  to  my  house.  1  ttntk  him 
Id  the  houHe  and  ho  was  very  ill  thiH  morning  when  I  left, 
and  ctMild  not  eat  any  breakfaHt. 

ii. — .\nd  you  do  not  know  whether  he  in  there  or  not 
now?  A. — I  left  him  there;  I  do  not  know  if  he  Ih  there 
iiuw. 

Q. — He  came  yesterday  afternoftn  in  the  Twh?  A. — No. 
lie  came  overland;  he  came  over  the  mountniuH. 

(i. — What  did  you  go  down  to  the  veawl  for?  A. — I 
usually  go  down  Itefore  the  Te«'H  goes  out  to  the  coaHt,  hav- 
ing interests  on  the  Wi'st  Coast. 

{}. — Does  she  ever  go  without  vour  going  down?  A. — 
>•    -er. 

(i. — Ther«'  is  nothing  unusual  in  your  going  down  there? 
A. — Nothing  whatever. 

{}. — This  man,  it  apjiears.  had  some  cheques  to  sign?  A. — 
He  had  for  Captain  Roberts. 

Q. — Who  is  Captain  K<ibertH?       A. — Captain  of  the  Tees. 

t^. — Did  you  go  down  with  a  man?  .\. — Captain  Roberts 
and  I  met  him  on  the  sti-eet  and  we  went  down  together. 

(i. — You  were  going  down  with  Captain  Roberts?  A.- 
Ves. 

(). — And  you  actually  drove  up  from  there?       A. — Y'es. 

Mr.  I'eters: — That  was  a  great  sin.  it  appears  to  me. 

He-e.xamination   by   Mr.    Dickinson. 

Q. — We  will  s»H'  about  that.  Did  you  go  into  a  place  to 
iMid  him?       A. — I  did  not. 

(J. — Did  you  have  a  carriage  when  yor  found  him?    A. — No. 

il — Y«»u  sent  for  a  carriage  and  took  him  to  the  boat? 
.\. — No,  I  did  not. 

Q. — Did  you  take  him  in  a  carriage  to  the  boat?      A. — N«>. 

(.]. — How  did  you  come  to  get  a  carriage  to  go  home? 
A. — Well,  it  was  quite  a  ways  to  walk  and  he  was  very  ill. 

(). — He  had  a  ro<mi  at  the  Queen's  Hotel?  A. — I  believe 
lie  had. 

ii- — .\nd  you  went  by  the  hotel,  did  you  not?  * .- -No. 
Captain  McLean  and  he  were  diinking  and  1  pref  <  -d  t«i 
keep  him  away  from  him  and  took  him  home. 

Q. — Captain  .McLean  knew  liim.  didn't  he?  A. — I  pre- 
sume HO. 

Q. — Uy  Mr.  Peters: — That  is  Captain  .Mexander  McLean? 
A. — Yes.  sir. 

(i. — You  did  not  like  him  to  be  in  his  company;  you 
llioiigljt  it  was  bad?       .\, — Yes. 


•;! 

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10 


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I  tt>lt'(;ra|»lu>d  fur  liiiii 


30 


40 


5-5 


60 


$76 

(Wllliiiin  MiiiiHic — ItiTiilU'd.) 

M,v  Mr.  DickiiiHoii: — Voti  mi.v  tliiit  MfLftiii  iiihI  In*  wt'i*- 
drinkiiiK  toKcliicr?  You  iK-ard  tlic  iiiiin  wtiH  in  tlilH  |»Iim'i> 
uiid  Cii|»liitii  Mcli<'iiii  wiiH  (Ih'Iv,  wiin  Iu>  not?  A. — IU>  told 
ni«>  HO  liiniHi>lf  tliut  III'  had  tuM-n  diinkinK  with  ('aptain  Mc- 
Lean. 

Q. — IMd  Captain  Mt-lA-an  It'll  ,voii  that  Im'  had  l>«'<-ii  ■'<> 
qut'Htt'd  hv  iiH  to  k<'«'|)  an  <'y<*  on  tlH*  man  nntil  w«'  would  nvi 
a  Hnhpofna  for  him?      A. — lie  did  not. 

Q. — lint  h*>  waH  in  then'  with  him  in  thiH  piarr  wlu'rc  vou 
found  H«'r«'ault'.'      .\. — I  did  not  tind  him  tliori'. 

(i.— Who  did?      A.— Captain  UolxrtM. 

y. — IHd  not  .vou  (JO  in  tlicn'?       A. — No. 

i}. — Wlit'rc  w«'r«'  ,vo» — did  vou  Hta.v  «MitHid«'?  \. —  I  wuh 
walking  up  VatcH  Ntri't't. 

Q. — I)id  you  have  a  carriaK*'?       A. — Xo. 

(i. — IIow  did  <'aptain  HoltcrtH  know  where  .vou  were? 
A. — Captiiin  KohertH  waH  looking  for  him;  we  walked  up 
the  Htreet  tOKetlier. 

<i.— You  were  lookin;;  for  him?  A.— Captain  KoImtIm 
wnH  to  Hifni  tlM'He  elieipieH.  Captain  KohertH  wuh  in  tlie 
aalnon  and  he  and  Captain  McLean  were  in  there,  and  lie 
enme  out. 

The  CommiHHioner  on  the  part  of  Ih-r  .MajeHt.v: — You  niUHt 
not  do  anytldnK  to  interfere  witli  an.v  permin  who  Ih  wanted 
here. 

The  WitneHH: — I  quite  underHtand. 
and  I  HUppoHed  lie  would  f(mie. 

Mr.  Peters: — Sereault  Ih  onr  witne- 

The  CommiHHioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majegty: — I  under- 
stand, but  still — 

Mr.  Peters: — This  witness  has  done  nothing  wrong. 

Tile  ConimlHsioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — It  is  mere- 
ly precautionary;  a  general  observation. 

Mr.  Peters: — He  tinds  tiiat  this  witness  is  in  L-oiiipany 
with  Captain  Alexander  McLean  drinking,  he  tliinks  that  he 
Ih  not  good,  and  he  taken  him  away  from  him,  and  I  consider 
it  was  a  meritorious  act. 

Further  examination  by  Mr.   Dickinson: 

(J. — Y'ou  liad  not  seen  him  before,  although  you  telegraphed 
him  to  come  and  set  you?      A. — I  liad  not  seen  him. 

Q. — When  you  tlrst  saw  him  when  he  <'anie  with  Cajitain 
Roberts  hud  lie  been  served  with  a  subpoena  in  this  case? 
A. — He  had  not. 

Q. — When  was  he  served  with  a  subpoena?  A. — i  believe 
this  morning. 

Q. — Y'ou  did  not  know  that  tlu'  I'nited  Stages  was  ati;'r 
the  witness  last  night,  did  you?      A. — No,  I  d'.d  not. 

Q. — I  want  to  ask  you  :mother  question,  if  you  please?  Do 
you  know  Patrick  Hickey?      A. — I  do. 

Q. — Have  yon  seen  liim  in  the  last  tliree  days?  A. — I  do 
not  know  that  I  liavt'. 

Q. — Well,  well,  ran  you  not  say  better  than  that.  Mr.  Man- 
sie?  A. — No,  I  would  not  say  that  1  have  seen  him  in  tlie 
past  three  days. 

Q.— Would  you  say  that  you  had  not?  A.— No,  I  would 
not  say  that  I  had  not. 

Q.— Did  you  have  a  talk  with  him  about  the  I'nited  States 
having  a  Hu1»poena  for  him?      .\. — T  had  not. 

Q. — Did  you  ask  him  to  go  away?      .\.— No,  1  did  not. 

Q. — Do  you  know  where  he  is?      A. — I  do  not. 


lu 


20 


5// 

Rxuiiiiiiiilioii  of  wiliM'HH  I'luNi'd. 

Mr.  l>i('klnHon: — Wv  ilfHiiv,  imiy  it  jili'iim'  t)H>  <'ourt,  to  «'X 
iiiniiH*  one  or  two  witiii'NH<-H  vrrv  lirit'tlj^-  if  we  ciiii  ^ot  tlifiu. 
To  tliiit  rxlt'iit  Wf  iM'Ht,  HO  fur  iin  the  witiicHHt-H  wi'  iirc  tiblt' 
III  i;(>l  lit  Victoriii  :ii-i'  ronnTiicd.  On  iln>  i|iii-MlioiiR  iit  iHHii**, 
liowfMT,  we  <l«'sii-i*  (o  iiitriMliice  proof  at  tlii'  Hitting  Hint  niti.v 
Iw  Ik'IiI  at  Han  KranciHro. 

Till-  <'oinniiHHion*'r  on  tlit>  part  of  tlii'  Tnitotl  HtatcH: — 1><> 
voii  intciiil  to  proftMMl  fiirtlitT  now  or  wait  until  tlit-  cxatiii- 
iiation  of  llif  laHt  wilm-HH  \h  roiiiplotr? 

Mr.  DirkinMon: — I  woiiid  pr«-fiT  to  wail  until  iii.v  liMirnfti 
friciulH  minplHt'  llic  t'xaniiiialion  of  llit>  hiHt  witnt-HH. 

Till-  CoinniiHMioiu'r  on  Ilit-  part  of  llio  I'nitt'd  Statt-w: — Very 
w*ll. 

Mr.  Difkinmin: — I  «l»'Hir«'  in  ronncclioii  with  tlio  proof  al 
ntidv  put  in  to  |(Ul  in  a  *-iMtili*'«1  lopv  of  tlic  Itill  of  Huh-of  tin- 
"Siin  !>if^'o"  to  lt<'clilt>l,  as  recorded  in  the  colleetor  of  ciih 
lonm'  ofllee  in  >4an  KranciKco,  together  with  Mr.  HeeliterH  af 
lidavit  nied  at  tlie  time,  a  eertifled  eopv  of  whi<-h  we  have. 

.Mr.  I'etei'H: — ,\f,v  obj«'«-tion  t«)  the  other  doniinentK  put  in 
liv  my  learned  friend  ap]ilieM  e<|ually  to  thiH.  My  objerlion 
is  tlial  the  altidavil  eannot  lie  put  in  hh  evidt'iiee  apiiiiHt  uh 
ill  lliiH  partlcul'ir  inalter.  The  facts  can  lie  proved  outHi<ie 
if  the  allidavit.      I  pi-eHuine  tli^it  iu  the  altldavit  it  hiivh  that 

30  lit-  is  an  American  eiti/.en.  Tliat  in  a  *|ueHtion  of  law  arlH 
iiiK  out  of  i-erlain  faeln  whieli  can  lie  ]iroved  before  the 
(.'(iiirt.  H<t  that  tlie  Tonrt  may  be  in  a  position  to  judfie  wheth- 
er lie  was*  an  American  citizen  or  not.  .\ltli<inf!h  I  acknow- 
lcd);e  th«>  fact  that  the  regiHtration  of  the  ship,  as  contra- 
dislin<;iiiHhed  from  a  men  staleinent.  yet  at  the  same  time 
tlie  atlidavit  is  )int  in  as  a  statement,  and  it  combines  n  i|U<>h- 
tion  of  law  arising  out  of  certain  facts.  lie  may  be  all 
wroiifi  in  his  law.  lie  may  think  he  was  an  .American  citi- 
zen when  he  was  not,  and  therefore  I  object  to  that  class  of 

^     evidence  being  put  in. 

Mr.  IHckinson; — I  snppost'  it  will  go  in  under  the  same 
niling.  We  ofler  it  further  as  im|ieaching  the  testimony  of 
•I.  A.  Hechtel.  a  witness  caUed  for  (Sreat  Itritain  in  this  case. 

Mr.  I'eterB: — On  what  ground.-*  do  yon  impeach  it? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Itecniise  I  asked  him  a  tpiestion  as  to  what 
lie  di<l  at  San  Franci.^co,  and  he  said  he  did  nut  do  this. 

.Mr.  Peters: — I  think  he  said  he  did  not  reiiit  inber. 

The  C<iinmissionor  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  Btates: — My 
Iciiriied  associate  and  I  agreed  that  tliis  slioiild  go  in  tlii- 
same  as  the  others,  all  righls  being  reserved. 

Mr.  Dickinson  then  rent'  lie  afllidiivit  referred  to.  and  at 
I  tie  conclusion  of  reading  h.      ;id: 

Tlie  date  IS'.MJ  here  is  evidently  a  clerical  mistake,  but  it 
will  be  n-ctitled. 

-Mr.  Teters: — V.'.-  presume  that  is  a  mistake. 

Mr.  Dickinson:— Instead  of  1S!)0  it  should  be  1890,  as  sliown 
I'.v  the  bill  of  sah'. 

.Mtached  to  this  is  the  aWdavit  of  the  master  that  he  is  a 
lilizen  of  the  I'nited  States.  These  are  to  go  into  the  appen- 
<li.\  and  not  into  the  notes. 

.•57 


5C" 


60 


■  \ 


o\ 


! 


57« 

PotuinoniN    iv(t'iv«'(i  and  inai<k«>(t   Kxliibit  4,   T.  S.,    <.'laiiii 
No.  1. 

Mr.  I'j'ters: — We  takp  the  same  objectiou  to  the  bill  of  sale 
aa  well  as  to  the  atlWlavit. 


Mr.  DickiuHori. — That  is  iiiider«tood. 
The  ('onuniisNiouerH  then  toolv  a  recesH. 


10 


'^V\V^■\ 


20 


30 


40 


The  CoiuiniMHiouerH  iVNUiued  their  seats  at  2:1.')  o'cioeii. 

The  Conunissioiier  ou  the  part  of  the  I'uited  Staler. — Mv 
learned  associate  has  aslied  me  to  make  au  auiiouiiceiuenl  oii 
behalf  of  the  ('omiiiissioners  with  reference  to  the  crosscx 
amination  uuder  discussion  this  moiiiiu};.  <>u  Roiu;;  tlii(iu.t;ii 
the  notes  we  ttnd  that  the  state  of  the  rccoi-d  apiiears  to  he 
eritirely  clear,  and  1  .vill  read  those  parts  only  whi«h  (oiicli  on 
this  precise  matter,  I  shall  read  all  of  them  so  far  as  we  have 
b«'en  able  to  discover  them.  Commencinfj  on  the  IHth  fjali  'v 
the  following;  took  place  as  rejtorti'd: 

"Q. — Is  there  any  larf{',>  proportion  of  seals  lost  after  hiin-i 
shot  when  they  are  awake?  A. — Yes,  sir,  of  awake  sc;ils  a 
larfie  proportion  are  lost? 

"Q. — Why  is  that?  A. — Hecause  they  are  standin};  up  in 
the  water  and  shot  from  the  front  UK>kinK  at  you.  They  fall 
on  their  back  th«'n,  and  1  understand  that  the  air  comes  out 
of  their  body  and  they  sink  tail  first. 

"Q. — And  go  out  of  sifjjht  and  ari'  lost?     A. — Yes. 

"li. — They  don't  conu'  up  apiin?  A. — I  never  knew  of  one 
to  come  up;  a  d«'ad  s«'al  will  sink  like  a  stone. 

"Q. — You  never  knew  of  ont>  to  come  up?  A. — I  alwii.\s 
un<lei stood  it  that  way.  When  the  wind  is  out  of  them  they 
}Io  down  like  a  stone,  but  if  they  are  shot  from  the  back  they 
float  quite  a  while. 

"<i. — .Vnd  they  are  shot  from  the  back  when  asleep?  .\. — 
Yes,  sir. 

"ii- — When  you  approach  them  iis  they  awake  they  usually 
ace  fnmtiii}!;  yon?  A. — Yes.  because  most  of  th«'  time  if  tlicy 
know  y«ni  are  about  they  try  to  look  at  you. 

"Q. — Now,  Captain  Miner,  out  of  a  liody  of  seals  awake, 
what  proportion  of  them  that  are  killed  are  lost?     .\.— It  dc 
50   (lends  a  f:;reat  deal  on  the  man  who  shoots  ihem. 

"Q. — 1)()  you  shoot  them  at  some  distance  when  they  ai'c 
awak«»?  A. — If  you  sh(M>t  them  at  a  long  distance,  1  think 
fully  half  would  be  lost. 

"Q.— Fully  half?  A.— Yes,  sir,  that  is  when  we  kill  at  a 
long  distanc"." 

Then  comes  a  question  intended  to  lead  up  to  a  fiirtlicr 
t>n(|niry  of  this  character: 

"Q. — You.  yourself,  1  think,  are  a  pretty  crack  shot?  .V.— 
Yes,   I  have  always  shot   some  seals. 

"Q. — Well,  it  is  not  immodest  for  you  to  say.  if  you  have 
the  reputation  of  being  a  first-class  slmt,  have  yon?  -V. — • 
Yes,  sir." 

And  then  comes  the  objecti«m  of  Mr.   Peters: 

"Mr.  Peters: — If  we  arc  going  into  the  (piesfion  as  how 
many  seals  aic  lost  by  sinking  after  being  slutt,  we  vill  en 
fer  int<»  a  rather  brotid  inquiry." 

That  is  the  precise  (jueslion  which  was  before  the  Tribunal 
at  Paris 


60 


km^^ 


SIh 


?.•? 


10 


20 


30 


379 
(E.  I*.  Miiifi— Ht'iallt'd  -rioss.) 

Thai  iunk«'N  two  thiiif;«  pfrfectly  iipiiart'iit,  oiu'  thiufj  is  that 
tho  qiU'Htioii  we  have  been  coiisidfriii";  is  perfectly  plain.  It 
is  not  at  all  involved  in  the  (|iie!slion  of  pelagic  sealing;  bnt  it 
rehitos  simply  and  Holely  (o  the  precise  objection  made  by 
Mr.  IV'ter».  Tliat  is  what  the  Commissioners  ruled  and  that 
is  what  we  have  reference  to.  t)f  course  it  does  not  follow 
Ironi  that  that  as  the  case  jiro^resseH  (her(>  may  not  be  other 
topics  as  to  which  the  Commissioners  may  not  be  inclin«'d  to 
limit  the  testimony.  It  also  makes  clear  that  if  this  (jnes- 
tion  is  allowed  to  stand  in  the  record  it  would  entitle  Sir 
Charles  Tuppei-  to  cross  examine  with  reference  to  the  sub- 
ject matter  umh'r  discussion  at  the  time  the  crosscxaniina- 
tion  stopped.  It  is  not  clear  to  the  Commissioners  whether 
ornot  under  all  (he  circunistances  (liis  should  stand  in  the  re- 
<ord  and  the  Commissioners  in  Ihe  lirsl  place  leave  it  to  the 
counsel  to  determine  by  afrrecmi-nl  amon<r  themselves  wheth- 
er or  not  this  shall  stand  in  the  record  or  <;o  out.  I  refi-r  now 
to  the  i»ortiona  I  have  read  to  the  ipiestion: 

"You  yourself  are  a  pretty  crack  shot." 

That  we  see  no  occasion  for  striking  out  but  believe  it 
should  remain  in  order  to  make  sensible  the  ol>jection  which 
Mr.  Peters  at  once  made.  If  Counsel,  undei"  the  circuni- 
stances, are  apreed  that  it  should  be  stricken  out  they  will 
direct  the  stenoirrapher  to  take  out  Ihe  portion  I  have  read. 

In  view  of  the  fact  that  coiinsel  have  said  that  thev  wftuld 
group  their  testimony  u])on  this  lojiic  at  a  future-  time  and 
in  some  other  case,  it  occurred  to  us,  if  counsel  preferred,  to 
strike  the  whole  matter  out  of  the  record. 


Wir  C  II.  Tapper: — As  to  what  may  be  agreed,  upon,  of 
course,  I  make  no  statement  at  pr«'sent,  but  in  deference  to 
the  observations  that  havt'  been  made  from  the  Hench  both 
before  adjournment  and  since,  I  shall  not  cross-examine  this 
witness  on  the  subject  >\e  are  discussing.  I  hop(>  I  nuiy 
without  olfence  say,  with  |)arlicular  reference  to  the  obser- 
vations that  have  jusi  been  made,  we  do  not  altogether  agree 
that  the  parts  read  from  the  ilirecl  ex.imination  are  tlu>  only 
40   ]iarts  thai  tleal  with  this  (pieslion. 

The  (^(mniissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — I  re 
marked  that  is  all  we  found. 

Sir  V.  11.  Tupper: —  F(M-  instance,  later  on  he  was  asked 
about  how  many  seals  were  lost  of  those  he  shot. 

Tile  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — We 
did  not  tind  it. 

5*^  Kir  V.  II.  Tuj.per:— N;»,  Your  Honour,  an/!  it  will  noi  be 
necessary  to  discuss  it  now.  I  ask  ihe  permission  of  the 
Ciinmiission  to  ask  Ihe  witness  a  couple  of  ipiestions  which 
were  on  my  notes  this  morninig  but  which  I  had  forgotten  to 

ask. 

Cross  examin;ilion   continued  :—(i.—C:M»<-    Miner,   yon    oul- 
titled  Ihe  "Henry  Dennis"  in   IS't:!  and  IS'.MV       .\.  -  Yes.  sir. 

Q.— Had  von  Frank  McKeiinii  as  your  cook?      .\.— Yes,  in 
1S!»4. 
'^0       Q._\Vho  was  your  cook  in  lS!»:t?      A.— Thai   I  cannol  call 
to  mind. 

(j._\Vas  it  not   Frank  McKenna?       \.— I  do  not  think  so 
but  I  don't  remember. 

Q._You  will  not  be  certain  about   thai?       A.— I  will  not 
be  certain. 

Q.- You  d<'alt   wiUi   Schwabacker   Urolhers,  of  Seattle,  In 
lliose  vears?       A. —  Yes,  sir. 


M 


,■<!■ 


M< 


ilii 


tmM  mnBRIullilr 


;8o 


■I'! 


jt'l,(i< 


10 


30 


(K.  I'.   Miiu'r — HcciilltMl — Cross.) 

ti- — How  iiiaiiy  ui'.-ii  hat]   voii  on  iIu-hj*  (Mtasioiis  on   vour 
nhli»M?      A.— On  both  vovagos  I  bcllt-v*'  I  liad  J5  men.  ' 
0.— And  for  ilio  usual  (rui.sc?      A.— And  for     tin-     usual 

(TUist'. 

Q. — :Stliwalm'kt'r  Upos.  supplied  the  piovisions  for  the 
Ht'urv  Dennis  in  18!i:{  and  IHjti?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Now  raplain  <an  you  tell  nu-  what  your  provisions  lull 
amounted  to  in  1K!):{?      A.— In  the  ueighhorhotMl  of  ilil.not). 

Q. — Are  von  speakintf  positively  in  regard  (o  that?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — When  you  undertake  to  say  positively  that  it  was  not 
in  the  neifrhboihood  of  •fii7.4(t?       A.— Not  for  provisions,  sir. 

ii. — Will  you  undertake  to  say  that  it  was  not  in  the  neifjh 
borlntod  of  !f2,7(i(l?       A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — I'ositivelv?       .\. — I  positively  say  it  was  not. 

*i. — Without  any  reservation?       A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  was  ytuir  provision  bill  in  is04  for  the  "Henry 
20   T)ennis?"       A.—  In  the  neighborhood  of  #1.7(l(». 

Q. — Will  you  undertake?  to  say  positively  that  it  was  not 
in  the  nei^'hborliood  of  ifl.ii:!!)?       A.- Yes.  sir. 

Q. — I'ositivelv?       A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — And  that  y()u  did  not  buy  that  amount  of  provisions  in 
IHiU  from  Sehwabacker  Bros?  A. -No,  sir,  not  for  the 
•'Dennis.'' 

Q, — Did  you  buy  that  anuMint  for  any  other  juirpose?  A.— 
I  bought  no  other  except  for  the  "Dennis." 

Q. — No  other  account?     A. — No,  sir. 

(i. — And  you  undertake  to  say  positively  that  the  amount 
was  not  in  the  neinhborhnod  of  ^l.!U(»?  A.— In  my  recollec 
ticm  it  was  between  *l,7(«t  and  »1,S0(». 

Q.— Will  you  say  that  it  was  not  »l,8(Ht?  A.— Yes,  sir,  I 
will  say  that. 

Q.— You  are  certain  that  it  did  not  exceed  #l,H(»(t?  A.— 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Hut  it  mijjht  have  been  *1.S(H»?     A.— No,  sir. 

Q.— Miftht   it  not  have  been  ^hHott?     A.— No,  sir. 

Q. — You  are  positive  of  tliat?     A. — INisitive  of  that. 

Q. — You   say   that    positively?     A. — Positively. 

Q. — In  1SS;{  wiiat  was  the  limit  vou  jjave?  A. — About 
f  1.(10(1. 

Q. — You  ar<'  absolutely  certain?     .\.— Yes. 

Q.— It  is  not   possible  it  exceeded  .fl,(;(l(»?     A.— No,  sir, 

Q. — Why  do  you  think  that  for  tiie  same  shi])  and  tlip 
same  crew  the  amount  might  have  been  f2(M)  more  in  18!)4 
than  it  was  in  lS!t:{?  A. — I  probably  had  a  little  extra  pro 
visi(Uis. 

y.— Why   w'Mild  you  have  a   little  extra     in     1S!>4?     A.— 
50   Somethinu    thai    I    tlMuight    wotihl   be    worth    while   to   take 
making  the  otit!  t  a  little  better. 

Q. — Have  you  any  detlnite  reason?     .\. — Kxcepting  that. 

Q.— As  a  matter  of  fact  what  do  you  think?  .\.— I  don't 
think  they  weri'  as  a  rule. 

Q. — Were  they  any  dearei?  A.— No,  sir,  I  don't  think 
they  wei'c  any  dearer. 

Q. — You  can  give  me  no  other  reason  for  supposing  your 
provision  bill  was  higher  in  IS<»4  than  in  1S!):<  than  the  reason 
(5o  you  have  given  me?     .\. — No  other  reason. 

(i. — Will  .\(>u  stale  positively  that  yoiii-  provision  bill  was 
dearer  in  IH!I4  for  the  Henry  Dennis  tJuin  it  was  in  \H'X\'!  A. 
— I  had  a  little  UHUe  provisi<ms  and  my  bill  was  a  little 
larger. 

(i. — ^'ou  are  positive  as  to  that?     .\. — Yes.  sir. 

(i.— Absttlulely?     .\.— Yes.  sir. 

t^.— Y<ui  cannot   be  mistaken?     A.  — No,  sir, 


40 


S8i 
.K.  1*.  .Miner — ("ro«s — !{;•  dir«Mi.) 

Q. — WIm'Ii  v<»u  *-xiiiniiic<l  the  '•< 'iiiok'iiii.'"  wiih  llicrc  auy 
wati'r  in  her  hold?  A. — I  saw  walt-r  in  her  hold  one  time, 
hut  the  nther  time  it  was  dry.     It  Hi>at<'d  with  the  tide. 

(2. — fame  in  on  the  side  as  she  lea-ied  over?  A. — At  the 
lo|),  yon  mean. 

Q. — Yes?     .\. — No,  sir.  it  will  not  (low  over. 

Q. — l»id  yon  see  the  water  cominjt  in?     .\. —  I  did  not  no 
tice  as  to  that. 
'°       y. — I   asked  yon   whether  provisions  were  (h-arer  in    1S!>4 
than  in   1S0.'{.     Wen-  they  not   cheaper  in    IS!»4     than     they 
were  in  ISSti  or  1SS7?     .\. — I  think  considerahly  so. 

Re-direct  examination   !)v  Mr.   Dickinson: 


(I. — Your  estimate  of  fs  and  iflO  that  you  have  made  on 
ihe  tiltin}f  out  as  to  which  yon  liave  been  crossexamined;  on 
your  return  from  the  trips  did  it  turn  out  that  your  estimate 
had  been  correct?  A. — Most  always  my  estimate  was  about 
the  same. 

Q. — IMd  it  turn  out  on  your  return  that  you  were  short  or 
that  yon  had  a  surplus?     I  always  had  a  surplus. 

Q. — Comin;;  into  port?     .\. —  Yes.  sir. 

ii. — What  was  (he  tcmnage  of  the  Dennis?  .\. — !Mi  tons 
and  a   fraction. 


20 


Q. —  How  many  men  did  she  carry?     .V. — '2't. 
<]. — Willi"  men?     ,\. — White  meii.  yes. 
(i.— Yon  had  the  same  niinil»er  in   IH!t:{  and  1S!M?     A.— If 
,Q   I  remember  rijjhtly,  just   the  same. 

He  (ross-examination  by  Sir  ('.  II.  Tapper. 

Q. — Tliis  surplus  of  pmds  was.  I  take  it.  probably  of  little 
vahu'  after  nine  months'  cruise?     \. — Not  of  much  value. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  on  a  trip  tilllnft  up  with  stcu-es  at 
Sluiinanin  Island  after  flttinft  up?  .V. —  I  had  small  bills 
there. 

ii. — For  provisions?     .\. — For  provisi<uis,  yes,  sir. 

^  He-direct  examination  by  .Mr.  Dickinson: 

(2. — What  kind  of  floods  have  yon  had  there?  .V. — t'ertail 
articles  that  I  mi(;ht  be  a  little  short  of,  fresh  tish  or  some 
liiiii;;  like  that.  I  remember  one  time  having  a  chance  to 
iivt  fresh  beef  there.      .My  bills  would  amount   to  $20  or  itf-'tO. 

(i.— .Vnd  not  to  the  extent  of  #50  or  fllMt?  .\.— No.  sir.  I 
lid  not   think   I  ever  had   that   bill  there. 

ii- — Have  yon  also  when  you  found  vessels  that  were  short 
uiven  from  vonr  stock?     .\. — I  have  often. 
?"       My  Sir  r."  II.  Tupper: 

ti-— When  did  you  do  that.  Captain?  .\. —  I  could  recall 
several  instances. 

Q. — What  ship  did  voii  siipplv?  .\. — I  snp]died  the  -rath- 
fliider. 

U- — Who  was  the  captain?     .^. — t'aptain  Laven('"r. 

Q- — When?     .\. — I  forget  just  now. 

<i. — You   don't    remember  the  year?     .\. —  X«t.   sir.     I    also 
supplied  the  "Heaver."  I   remember  that. 
6o      W— WlMii?     A.— In  IHIttl. 

<i— Where?     .\.— In  the  Iteliring  Sea. 

^i- — Who  was  the  captain  of  the  ■•Heaver"  then?  .\.— 
<  apt.  Maker. 

Q. — Did  he  get  the  supplies?     .\. — Yes,  sir. 

<i.— What  did  he  get?  A.— Some  little  supplies  that  I  do 
not  remember. 


1 

i 

! 

'iiitiii 

■    iill 

1        -,  1 

\ 

v 


■•;ii 


ij 


11 


Kxamination  of  the  witness  closed. 


.'■     t  I" 


m: 


582 

(DiHciiHHion.) 

TIm'  ('oniinisHioncr  on  (lie  \n\vi  of  lT«'r  Majesty: — I  notice, 
Mr.  IVtcrs,  what  Sir  (MiarlcH  Tupicr  said  in  respect  to  tlie 
proposition  that  ni.v  learned  brotlier  lias  n'ferred  to  as  to  tlie 
ninnner  of  dealing;  with  the  evideiio"  as  taken  on  direct  ex- 
amination. The  remarks  looked  to  t\  conference  l\v  counsel. 
Are  .vou  able  to  say  what  yon  propose? 

,o  Mr.  Peters: — My  pro|>osition  is  that  the  evidence  should 
stand  just  as  it  is.  I  see  no  reaw(tn  for  alter'njj  it  in  any  re 
spect  or  striking  any  part  of  it  out.  In  fact,  I  see  no  jjood 
(grounds  for  asking  to  strike  any  part  of  it  out. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  do  not  sujjpose  we  c<»uld  ask  voluntarily 
to  have  it  struck  out.  Of  conrs<'  my  leani«*tl  friends  may  in- 
sist uiMHi  it  under  the  ruling. 


20 


Mr.  Peters: — No.  I  do  not  insist  upon  it  at  all. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Now.  may  it  please  the  Commissioners  we 
rest  so  far  as  the  testimony  in  N'ictoria  is  concerned  with  the 
excejition  of  two  and  jxissiltly  three  witnesses  who  will  he 
very  brief  upon  abstract  portions  of  the  case  and  not  upon 
all  the  issues  at  all.  We  have  produced  here  in  good  faith 
witnesses  from  the  American  side  of  the  water,  but  we  have 
been  unable  to  close  our  case  as  to  certain  branches. 


30 


m\ 


40 


Mr.  Pi'ters: — I'nder  the  circumstances  it  would  be  impos- 
sible for  me  to  recall  my  reltuttal  evidence  until  I  know  the 
whole  cast'  on  the  other  side;  nor  do  I  pi'opose  to  call  rebut- 
tal evidence  as  a  whole  until  their  case  is  absolutely  closed. 
In  order  to  save  time  then-  is  a  witness  here  now  who  must 
leave  in  a  short  time  and  I  propose  to  examine  him.  lie  be- 
longs t<t  S«'attle,  and  he  is  to  speak  to  a  certain  extent  as  to 
what  took  place  in  Ounalaska  in  rebuttal  of  ihv  testinuuiy 
and  in  contradiction  of  the  witnesses  called  by  my  learned 
friend  in  the  "< .'arolena"  case. 

I  may  also  state  that  therv*  are  also  a  number  of  witnesses 
here  wlut  are  engaged  in  the  seal  fishing  and  who  are  about 
to  go  on  their  annual  trij).  Their  ti  stimony  will  ai>])ly  not 
only  to  the  "i'arolena"  but  to  several  other  cases.  I  have 
given  inv  learned  friend  a  list  of  the  witn»>ss»>s  and  of  the 
cases  to  which  their  evidence  will  be  applicabl<>.  They  are 
siujjily  here  as  witnesses,  most  of  them  having  no  personal 
interest  in  the  case,  and  it  would  be  ruin  to  them  if  they 
were  compelled  to  lose  tlieir  whole  season's  sealing  trij).  I 
liave  madi-  the  suggestion  to  my  leinned  friend  that  they 
50  Nhould  be  examined  now.  The  evidence  need  not  be  i»rinted 
but  (uily  typewritten  so  that  it  could  afterwards  Iw  applied 
to  the  paiticiilar  case  in  the  record. 


Mr.  Dickinson: — We  sliiill  (oiiscnt  to  anything  that  will 
expedite  the  case.  I  have  told  my  learned  friend  that  as  wo 
prepared  each  case  by  itself  it  would  be  necessary  frr  us  t(» 
know  before  hand  in  regard  to  what  claim  the  witness  would 
be  sworn. 
^  .My  learned  friends  infornusl  me  by  letter  last  night  that 
these  witnesses  wotild  be  examined  oidy  upon  the  (piestions 
as  to  the  catch  for  the  years  ISS!)  and  1S!K».  and  of  «'ourse  we 
were  jirepared  to  consent  at  once  to  that.  They,  however, 
have  infornn-d  us  this  morning  that  it  is  proposed  to  examine 
sonu'  of  these  witnesses  on  other  questions  and  we  have  a«k- 
«'d  that  notice  of  that  should  be  given  as  we  would  like  to 
loi>k  upcm  the  record  of  tl»>  case  as  in  each  particular  claim 
as  to  which  they  are  examined. 


583 
(David  Knsscll— Dimt.) 

Mr.  DickinHon: — We  would,  of  course.  hav«'  to  n-fpr  to  our 
|iiip<>r8  and  sec  what  diroetion  our  rroftH-cxamination  Hliould 
tak«>. 

Mr.  Peters: — That  is  a  very  reasonable  proposition.  The 
tirst  witn«>8R  I  propoK)>  to  rail  is  simply  on  the  question  of 
srals  sinking. 

,0  The  ( 'oniniissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — Do 
you  call  him  in  this  ease  of  the  'H'arolena''?  A. — He  would 
be  called  in  this  case  and  his  evidence  would  be  applicable 
to  the  other  cases. 


20 


CASK  OF  OREAT  BRITAIN  IN  REBUTTAL. 


rn«'d 


that 
tions 

'  we 

'ver. 
mine 

auk 
ce  to 
'laim 


40 


60 


Uavid  Russell  was  called  as  a  witness  on  behalf  of  ijreat 
Britain  and  was  duly  sworn. 

The  (.'omniissi(uier  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — I 
iindcrstaud  you  to  say,  Mr.  I'eters,  that  this  is  a  witness  in 
rebuttal  whom  you  call  out  of  the  order. 

.Mr.  Peters: — Yes,  your  Honour. 
Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Itudwell: 

Q. — Have  you  been  living  lately  in  the  city  of  Seattle?  A. 
—Yes,  sir. 

(2. — And  you  came  to  \'ictoria  on  Saturday  last?  A. —  No, 
uir,  I  cume  on  Monday  morning. 

il. — Were  you  on  board  the  "Carolena"  in  the  year  IHSU'! 
A. — I  was. 

(i- — Were  you  on  board  her  when  she  was  taken  into  the 
port  of  Ounalaska?      \. — Yes,  sir. 

(■i- — How  long  were  you  on  board  the  ship  in  Ounalaska? 
A. — I  think  seven  days.  1  would  not  be  sure  with  regard 
lo  a  day  or  two. 

<j. — Then  what  ha))pened  with  reference  to  you?  A. — 
Tiiey  put  us  on  board  the  "St.  Paul"  and  sent  us  down  to 
Sau  Francisco. 

(i.--You  say  "us."  whom  do  you  mean?  A. — I's  and  the 
I  i'«'\v  of  the  "Thornton,"  bari'ing  the  nuite  and  captain. 

il — How  many  men  in  all?  A. — I  believe  there  were  nino- 
tci-n. 

(i.— Were  vou  taken  from  the  "<'arolena"  and  put  on  board 
(111  "St.  Pnui?''      A.— Yes,  sir. 

(1. — Did  anything  happen  on  that  occasion  that  you  re- 
member? A. — Well,  nothing  any  more  than  they  took  us 
oil  board  the  "St.  I'jnil"  and  took' food  too.  for  the  crew  otf 
I  lie  "Carolena." 

(i.— Took  food  on  board  for  the  crew  at  the  same  time?  A. 
—Yes,  sir. 

(J.— From  where?       A. — From  the  "Carolena."' 

(i— What  did  they  take?      A. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  object,  that  is  not  rebuttal. 

.Mr.  Itodwell: — Yes  it  is  in  rebuttal  of  the  testimony  of  the 
witness  who  was  called  to  prove  that  these  goods  were  not 
on  board  the  "Carolena."  The  evidence  of  ('aptain  Raynor 
was  to  the  effect  that  there  were  only  two  boxes  of  biscuits 
iind  a  few  sacks  of  flour  on  board  the  ''Carolena."  .when  she 
'iiiiic  into  port,  at  the  time  the  inventory  was  taken. 


i^iwi 


^\l^ 


;:ii 


i:!i^ :. 


mm. 


Wit       :■-':       '    '-V 

i     1 


^ 

!' 

1  WMf 

i 

;!f-,:: 

t- 

\W; 


584 

(David  UiiBst'll— Uirt'ct.) 

Mr.  IMokiiiHou: — Not  at  the  tiim*  m1k>  ctiinf  into  \wvi,  but 
ut  the  tiuiv  tlu>  iuv*>n(or>'  wuh  taliou. 

Mr.  B<k1wo1I:— Tliis  witness  swore  that  he  went  on  board 
of  the  "Cartdeua"  wlu  n  she  came  into  port  and  that  this  in- 
ventory '  as  taken  a  few  days  after  she  eanie  iu. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Even  so,  it  is  not  rebuttal.  The  other 
,Q  side  have  jjone  in  fully  into  evidence  to  show  the  amount  of 
supplies  they  were  d«'i)rived  of  by  the  United  States.  in  de 
fence  we  showed  that  the  supplies  w«*re  reduced,  but  it  does 
not  follow  that  if  the  d«'fense  contradicts  tlie  ])laintiff's  case 
they  may  then  rebut  apiin  and  supplement  their  main  case. 

Mr.  Bodwell: — The  position,  as  I  take  it,  is  this:  We  have 
proven  by  our  witnesses  that  a  certain  amount  of  provisions 
were  purchased  here  and  put  on  board  the  "Carolena,"  and 
that  she  left  port  with  that  amount  of  provisions  on  boar<1. 
They  nu>et  that  by  provinji  that  on  her  arrival  at  Ounalasku 
she  only  had  a  small  (juantity  of  provisions  on  board,  the 
inference  being  that  we  eoiild  not  have  put  tln'  amount  of 
provisions  on  lM>ard  that  we  said  we  did.  That  is  the  whole 
line  of  defence  as  disclosed  in  the  cross-examination.  Now 
we  discover  for  the  first  time  on  the  arrival  of  th«'  "Carolena" 
at  Ounalaska  a  (juantity  of  provisions  were  taken  from  her 
and  placed  on  board  of  the  St.  Paul,  in  which  the  crews  of 
these  ve.ssels  w<-re  shipped  to  San  Francisco.  That  «'ertain- 
ly  is  in  rebuttal  of  the  case  whi«''  is  made  out  by  the  evidence 
of  the  witness.  I  ask  ('apt.  Kaynor  if  there  were  not  provis 
ions  for  10  men  taken  off  the  "Carolena"  and  put  on  the  "S(. 
Paul."  and  his  una  ver  is  that  he  did  not  see  it  and  did  not 
know  it. 


20 


30 


The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  T'nited  States; — You 
ask  that  on  cross-examination. 

Mr.  Hodwell: — Yes,  as  a  matter  of  fact  we  did  not  have 
this  witness  and  did  not  know  anything  of  the  facts. 

.Q       Mr.  Dickinson: — Can  ^  ,>,  sir,  rebut  and  say  they  did  not  go 
"*     on  to  the  "St.  Paul." 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Yes. 
you  can.  In  their  evidence  in  chief  they  say  then'  was  so 
much  material  put  on  board  of  the  vessel,  :uul  you  say  tlieie 
was  only  so  much  found  at  Ounalaska.  No  they  undertake 
to  account  for  it  by  showing  that  it  was  used  in  an  unusual 
direction.  That  surely  is  within  the  rules  of  rebuttal,  and 
you  are  entitled  to  slutw  on  the  other  hand  that  they  did  not 
go  on  board  the  St.  Paul. 


50 


Mr.  Dickinsonu: 
all  right. 


60 


-Very  well,  with  that  understanding,  it  is 


Mr.  n.xlwell:— Q.— What  did  they  take?  A.— There  was 
beef,  [lork,  (lour,  biscuits,  tea  and  coffee,  sugar  and  ham  and 
butter  and  I  cannot  lemeiiiber  anything  else  now. 

Q. — Do  you  rememl)er  whether  there  w<'re  any  canned 
goods?  .\. — Unless  it  was  c.'inned  condensed  milk,  but  1  do 
not  remember  anything  else.  I  kiiul  of  think  1  saw  <oii 
densed  milk  there,  but  I  do  not  use  milk  niysdf. 

Q. — Any  potatoes?  A. — 1  cannot  remember  whether  there 
were  any  potatoes  or  not. 

<J. — You  spoke  of  biscuits,  do  you  remember  the  number 
of  boxes?  A. — Not  positively.  There  were  either  four  or 
six  but  I  would  not  be  sure  about  it. 

(J.— What  do  yoti  call  these  biscuits?  A.— Well,  sea 
crackers  or  pan  tile. 


10 


30 


30 


40 


50 


to 


585 
(iMivid  KiiNNcll — ('itms.i 

(i. — Is  it  soiiu'tiiiH's  <alh'd  jiiKit  bread?  A. — Yos,  Hii-,  that 
18  what  they  witc,  pilot  Itrcad. 

('ro8s«'xaniiiiation  by  Mr.  IMeivinson: 

Q. — Well.  sir.  wliut  is  your  full  name?      A. — David  Russel. 

(i. — How  Utiin  have  you  been  in  Seattle?  A. — I  have  been 
there  ever  since  about  1H!M>,  I  j^uess. 

<i. — What  year  did  you  yo  out  op  the  "Carolena,"  was  it  in 
ISMO?      A.— Yvs,  sir. 

y. — What  ni'inth  did  you  no  out?  A. — I  was  not  on  board 
the  ship;  I  was  out  in  the  eanoe  belonging  to  the  ship. 

(i. — And  you  came  on  to  the  ship  and  were  taken  into 
OunahiRka?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Xow.  how  long  after  your  arrival  at  Ounalaska  were 
you  put  on  board  the  -St.  Paul?"  A.— I  think  we  laid  there 
seven  days,  when  they  put  us  on  board  the  *'St.  Paul."  I 
w(tuld  not  be  positive  as  to  tlu'  number  of  days. 

Q.— Before  you  were  put  on  board  the  "St.  Paul?"  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — .\nd  were  the  goods  ninoved  from  the  "f'arolena"  at 
the  same  time  that  you  went  on  board  the  "St.  Paul?"  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — At  the  same  time,  seven  days  after  your  arrival?  A. — 
Ves,  sir. 

Q. — Where  were  you  wlwn  th(>  goods  were  taken  from  the 
"<'arolena?"      A. — I  was  on  board  of  tlie  "Carolena?" 

Q. — Seven  days  after  your  arrival  at  Ounalaska?  A. — Yes. 
sir. 

Q. — Did  the  goods  go  on  board  the  "St.  Paul"  before  yon 
did?  A. — There  was  erne  boat  took  us  on  board  and  another 
boat  took  the  goods  on  board. 

Q. — Did  the  troods  leavi'  first,  or  did  your  men  leave  the 
"Parolena"  tlrst?      A. — I  could  not  say  now  exactly. 

Q.— What  kind  of  a  boat  took  you  over  to  the  "St.  Paul?" 
.\. — It  was  one  of  the  cutter's  boats. 

Q. — And  what  kind  of  a  boat  took  the  goods  over  to  the 
"St.  PanI?"      A. — That  was  one  of  the  cutter's  boats,  too. 

Q. — Did  you  see  the  captain  of  tin*  "f'orwin"  on  board  of 
the  "Parolena"  before  this?       .\. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Y«>u  never  saw  him  on  board?      \. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  see  Li»ut.  <'oiilson  on  board  of  lu-r?  A. — No, 
sir. 

(i. — Or  liieut.  Cantwell?  A. — The  only  man  I  saw  on 
board  the  "f'arolena"  wa.-<  one  who  I  understood  to  be  the 
third  Lieutenant. 

ly — liieut.  (.'antwell?       \. — I  do  not  konw. 

Q. — Did  you  st>e  him  take  an  inventory  from  the  "Tarolena" 
when  yon  were  then  ?  .\. — No,  sir.  he  was  there  to  guard 
and  nothing  else. 

Q. — Me  did  not  tak«'  an  inventory  liefore  you  left  on  the 
"SI.  Paul?"      A.— No,  sir. 

(i. — .\nd  did  you  not  see  him  taking  an  inventory?  A. — No, 
sir 

Q. — Were  you  fed  on  these  things  on  the  "St.  Pa  til?"  A. 
No.  sir;  partly  we  were  and  partly  we  were  not. 

(i.— Where  did  you  take  your  meals  on  the  "St.  Panl?-' 
.\. — We  took  our  m«'als  wherever  w«'  could  get  a  hold  of  it, 
in  fact,  w«'  had  no  meals  at  all. 

Q.— Did  they  set  any  table  for  you?      A.— No,  sir. 

Q.— What  else  did  you  eat  besides  these  goods  that  were 
put  on?  A. — The  goods  was  put  on  to  feed  us,  but  we  had 
no  way  of  cooking  them.  We  got  nothing  but  coffee  and 
biscuits.  ' 


'ifii 


'mi' 


\m 


rwT 


■'ill 


lO 


20 


30 


■|1! 


40 


'U\<\v 


50 


60 


586 
(David  KnHHcll — < 'i'osh.) 


Q. — Y«Hi  got  s«»iii«'  olIuT  fan.'  on  tlio  " 
by  pnyiiiK  for  it. 
Q. — You  had  sonif  inoni'v  (ln'ii?      A 


St.  Paul?"      A.— Yp8, 


Q. — Did  all  of  you  liav«'  inonoy? 


of 


A.— I 

lillOW. 

tliink. 


A. — I  can- 


"St.  rani?"  A.— 1  «an 
a  dozen.  I  l\now  tlicn' 
I  cannot  tell  liow  ninth 


•Carolena"     had     left 


-YeH,  si  p. 
A. — There  wa.<  a  few 
ns  had  money,  I  do  not  know  how  many. 

Q. — Did  yon  eat  any  of  the  pilot  bread  yonrself?  A. — Yeg, 
sir. 

Q. — And  had  Kome  butter  with  it?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q.— On  the  "St.  Paul?"      A.— Yes.  sir. 

(J. — In  what  shape  was  ihe  butter  taken  ofl?  A. — In  tubs. 
I  believe,  if  I  remember  arii^ht.  butter  tubs. 

Q. — \Yas  there  mon-  tlian  one  tub  taken  to  the  "St.  Paul?" 
A. — I  don't  reini'mber  now. 

Q. — \Yhat  was  the  suRar  taken  into  tlie  "St.  Paul?" 
think  it  was  a  kej? — half  barr«'l. 

Q. — How  mufli  su^ar  was  in  it?      .\. — Oil,  I  do  not 

Q.— ^Va8  the  barrel  full?      A.— Pretty  near  full,  I 

Q. — How  many  saeks  of  flour  did  you  see  in  the  "Carolena" 
on  the  day  that  the  removal  of  tlie  floods  was  made  to  the 
"St.  Paul?"      A.~I  do  not  remember. 

Q. — Yon  don't  remember  how  many  the  "Carolena"  had  on 
board  that  day?      A. — \o.  sir. 

Q. — Cannor  you  tell?      \. — No,  sir,  I  oannot. 

Q. — How  mucli  was  taken  to  th<'  "St.  Paul? 
not  tell. 

Q, — Were  there  two  taken  to  the 
not  tell  whether  there  were  two  or 
was  some.     1  saw  Hour  there,  but 
there  was. 

Q. — You  cannot  tell  how  much  tin 
when  you  were  seizt'd?    A. — No.  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  look  into  the  su^jar  barrel?  A. — We  used  it 
right  off  the  barrel  (m  the  "St.  Paul." 

Q. — Did  you  look  to  see  how  much  butter  there  was?  A. — 
1^0,  sir. 

Q. — What  else  did  you  say  was  taken  off  besides  the  sufjar 
and  butter?    A. — There  was  hams,  I  believe. 

Q. — How  many?  A. — I  cannot  tell,  but  I  know  we  ate 
some  of  them. 

Q. — Wjis  there  one?    A. — I  am  i»retty  sure  there  was  (me. 

Q. — As  my  learned  friend  opposite  would  say,  will  you 
swear  there  was  one?    A. — Tlu-re  was  one. 

Q. — Will  you  swear  there  was  any  more?  A. — I  cannot 
Hwear  as  to  that. 

Q. — Was  there  any  corn  be«'f?     A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — What  was  it  in?    A. — In  barrels. 

Q. — How  many  barrels  (»f  corn  beef  did  you  have?  .V. — 1 
think  there  were  three  bands. 

Q,— Full  barrels?     A.— Yes.  sir. 

Q. — How  lonp  was  the  voyage  on  the  "St.  Paul",  how  many 
days?    A. — About  ten  days. 

Q. — How  many  in  the  "party?    A. — Nineteen. 

Q. — And  it  took  three  barrels  of  corn  beef  besides  all  the 
other  things  to  feed  you?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— What  else  did  you  have?  A.— A  barrel  ()f  jxtrk,  but  I 
(•an  not  tell  whether  the  barrel  was  full  or  not. 

Q. — You  took  a  barrel  of  sugar,  thret?  barrels  of  corn  beef 
and  a  tub  of  butter?     A. — I  believe  there  was  one  tub. 

Q. — You  did  not  know  how  full  it  was?  A. — I  do  not  use 
butter  and  I  did  not  have  occasion  to  go  to  the  tub. 

Q- — You  did  not  see  how  much  pork  there  was?  A. — No. 
sir. 

Q. — And  did  any  of  tlie  other  crews  partake  of  the  "Car- 
olena's"  stores  on  this  ten  days'  voyage?  A.— It  was  put  on 
for  us  and  the  "Thornton's"  civw  both. 


10 


20 


587 

(havid  UiiHHt'll — <"roHH.) 

y. — IM(1  tln>  "Thorntiiu"  crew  havo  auytliiuK-'  A. — Y»'H, 
tlu-y  titt'  tlit>  pilot  biviid  ami  llu-  tea  and  rutTuo  and  siipir. 

(j. — Wlial  stores  dUl  tlu'.v  (jfivc  .vou  on  tlic  "St.  I'aiil,"  that 
was  not  jjot  from  tlu>  "Carolina's"  stores?  A. — We  Itouj^ht 
about  one  meal  a  da.v,  and  they  made  a  tar|mulin  mess  imd 
that  is  about  all  we  did  have.  The  rest  we  had  was  tea  and 
cotree  and  pilot  bread. 

il. — You  don't  know  if  the  "Thoniton"  men  had  any  «)f 
your  stores'/  A. —  Ves,  sir,  they  did.  It  was  put  on  board 
for  the  nineteen  men. 

Q. — Will  you  tell  me  whether  you  saw  these  stores  put  on 
board  before  or  after  y«u  left  the  "Candena'/"  A. — I  eannot 
tell  you  that  exactly.  There  was  one  boat  on  (»ne  side  of  the 
vessel  and  one  on  the  other,  if  I  remember  arif;ht.  We  pot 
in  one  boat  and  the  stores  were  put  in  the  other  bojit  by  the 
sailors  of  the  eutter. 
(i. — Did  you  see  the  stores  pnt  on  board'/  A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q. — Uefore  you  left'/       A. — Yes. 

Q. — Did  you  see  them  go  to  the  "Ht.  Paul?"  A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q. — Are  you  positive  about  that,  Uussel'/  A. — Yes.  sir, 
with  the  boat, 
(i- — And  they  unloaded  the  stores  from  her'/  A. — Yes.  sir. 
Q. — Yon  are  positive  about  it'/  A. — Y«>s,  sir. 
(). — Do  vou  know  a  man  by  the  name  of  Roland  over  in 
H«'attle?      A.— No,  sir. 

Q. — Do  yon  know  any  one  who  asked  you  to  come  over  here 
as  a  witness  for  the  Ignited  States  within  three     days  last 
30  past?      A. — There  was  a  man  there  Sunday  afternotm  about 
4  o'clock,  but  I  do  not  remember  his  name. 

Q. — He  asked  you  to  come  for  the  United  States  because 
you  were  on  the  "Carolena"  and  knew  something  about  this 
matter  ?      A . — Yes,  Tsi  r. 
Q. — Did  you  refuse  to  come?      A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q. — Did  you  tell  him  you  would  not  come     because    you 
would  have  to  lie?      A. — Xo,  sir,  he  wanted  to  know  what  I 
knew  about  it,  and  1  told  him  that  after  I  got  on  the  stand  I 
would  tell  what  I  knew. 
4*^      Q. — Did  you  not  tell  him  that  if  you  came  to  Victoria  and 
told  about  your  experience  on  the  "Carolena"  you  would  have 
to  lie?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Did  yon  tell  him  that  if  yon  made  any  statement  it 
would  be  a  lie?      A. — No,  sir. 
(J.— Nothing  of  the  kind?      A. — No.  sir. 
Q. — Was  there  anything  said  about  lying?      A. — No.  sir;  I 
told  him  that  when  I  was  in  the  stand  and  under  oath  I  would 
tell  what  I  knew  about  it  and  not  before. 
-Q       Q. — Did  you  tell  him  that  you  would  not  tell  him  anything? 
A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — You  told  him  you  would  not  tell  him  anything  as  to 
wlujt  you  knew  about  the  "Carolena?''  A. — Not  till  1  got  on 
the  stand. 

Q.— Did  you  tell  him  that  if  you  did  tell  hiiii  anything  you 
would  tell  a  lie?      A. — No.  sir. 

Q.— And  that   was  Sundav  afternoon   at  Seattle?       A. — 
Yes. 
Q. — Where?      A. — In  my  house. 
60       Q. — What  is  your  business  over  there?      A. — I  am  work- 
ing alongshore  there. 

Q. — Now,  I  will  ask  yon  whether  on  that  occasion  at  your 
house  did  yoii  know  whether  the  name  of  that  man  was  Ro- 
land or  not?  A. — I  believe  that  was  the  name  but  I  would 
not  be  sure. 

Q.— Did  yon  t«Il  him  that  yon  did  not  .want  to  come  to  Vic- 
toria? A. — I  told  him  that  I  did  not  want  to  come  with 
him. 


I! 


^lh'l,(u 


(hllVid     UllHHcll Cl'OHN.I 

iy — hid  you  ;:iv«'  liiiii  iih  s\  iciihoii  why  you  ilid  not  wiiiil  lo 
(■oiii(>  tliat  if  yon  tuM  t)i<-  Irntli  in  X'icloriu.  anil  luul  liiiit  any 
one  in  N'ietoi-ia.  you  never  roultl  coint'  liiuk  lierc'.'  .\. — No, 
Hir. 

(i.— Yon  did  not?       A.— No,  Hir. 

0.— Aiul  nolliiii^r  lilx."  tliat?      A.— No,  hIi-. 

iy — hid  you   tell   Mr.   Koland.  tliiH  Hauie  man.  on  Sundav 

,o   tiftcrnoon  at  Seattle  in  your  lioiiNe  tluit  .loiin  TotHford   liiid 

been  over  ami  liad  liis  family  in  Vieloria  living  then'  and  liad 

had  enoutih  of  l<s(ifyiuK  i"  Hie  cuHe  on  behalf  of  tlie  Tailed 

StaleN.  <lid  you  say  tliat  to  him?      A. — No.  Nir. 

Q. — hid  you  Hay  that  -lidiii  t'otHfor'd's  family  would  have 
to  leave  Victoria  hecauHe  lie  tesiitled  to  the  truth  in  Victoria? 
A. — No.  sir. 

ti- — Nothing  of  that  Horl?      .\. — No.  sir. 

<2. —  Were  tlii'ic  any  pro\  iHioim  laki-n  otf  the  "Tluunton"  on 
lotlie  "St.  Paul?"      A.— I  *lo  not  believe  there  was;  I  do  not 
20    remember  of  any. 

ii. — hid  you  see  wlietlier  the  boat  went  to  the  "Thornton" 
before  or  after  il  went  lo  the  "I'arolena?"  .\. —  I  do  not  re 
member. 

Q. — Or  to  the  "Onward?"  A. —  I  do  not  remember  of 
that  either;  we  had  iiciie  of  the  "Onward's"  ci-ew  on  board 
that  I  know  of, 

Q. —  I  am  not  talkinji  about  the  crew.  I  am  asking  did  they 
take  an\   provi.-»ions  from  liei   to  the  "St.  Paul?"        .\. — I  <lo 
not  believe  they  did. 
30        Q. — ho  you  know  anylliinc  about   it?       A. — I  did  not  sec 
any. 

Q. — ho  you  know  whether  there  was  anything;  from  the 
"Thornton"  or  "Onward"  Ihat  went  to  the  "St.  Paul?"  A.— 
There  Wiis  nothin;;  in  the  boat. 

Q. — Can  you  tell  me  what  jiilot  bread  the  "('arolena*'  had  in 
her  hold  befor<'  the  boat  finoved  any  of  it?       A. — No.  sir. 

Q. — On  that  occasion?      .\. — \o.  sir;  I  cannot  tell  you. 

Q. — And  you  did  not  look  to  see  at  the  time?      A. — No.  sir. 

Q. — hid  you  see  the  pilot  bread  loaded  out  of  the  "Caro 
lena"  into  the  boat?  \.— Well,  I  cannot  swear  to  pilot  bread 
exactly.  Theri-  was  stall'  put  in  the  boat.  I  cannot  stale 
exactly  what  it  was. 

Q. — Would  you  swear  that  any  jiilot  bread  was  taken  off  the 
"Carolena"  and  put  on  the  boat?  .\. — Yes.  1  will  swear  to 
that. 

(i. — And  the  nnmbers  of  cases?  .\. —  I  cannot  swear  to 
tha.\ 

(i. — Now.  at  the  lime,  and  I  contine  your  attention  closely 
5°     to  the  time,  that  auythiu^  was  loaded  off  that  boat  did  you 
observe  at  that  time  what  pilot  bicad  was  in  the  hold?      A. — 
Xo,  I  would  not  know. 

(i. — Hut  did  you  observe  at  that  lime  the  number  of  cases 
or  boxes  of  jiilot  bread  in  the  liohl  of  the  "( 'arolena"?  A. — 
No.  sir. 

ii. — You  do  not  know  the  number  taken  out?  \. — No. 
sir. 

Q. — .\nd  you  do  not  kn<iw  the  number  of  cas«'s  left,  if  any? 
60  A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Nor  you  do  not  know  that  any  was  left?     A. — No.  sir. 

li. — hid  y<tu  see  any  stores  011  the  "SI.  Paul"  off  the 
'Thornton?''      A. — Not  that  I  remember  of;  no.  sir. 

il. — ho  you  know  thai  the  barn'ls  and  the  boxes  and  the 
tubs  of  butter  that  went  otT  the  "('arolena"  had  anything  in 
them?  A. — Yes.  sir.  they  were  full.  The  barrels  were  full 
of  beef. 


40 


5  89 

il'.nid   KiiMMfll — CiiisH.'i 

<i.--IM«l  you  MtM'  llii'in  iM'tnif  (lifv  l»f  i  ?  A. —  Vch.  wir,  llic.v 
w*M-e  ()ik«'n  (till  of  I  Ik-  iiold  of  tli*-  "raiolt-iia"  iiikI  |Mit  into  tlic 
lioal. 

(j. — Now,  Mr.  HuHscll,  iliil  von  him-  what  wan  inNitIc  of  tlii'M' 
|ia<'kajx»'x"'  A. — No.  »'\i:  not  any  inoic  ilian  I  knt-w  llnTf  wan 
rornbt't'f  in  tlifni. 

Q. —  Von  (lid  not  look  inHidc?     A.— No.  hIi-. 
i(j       (i. — Did  you  have  any  cniply  lianclK  in  tlit-  "•Caroh'ini"  at 
the  tinu'?      A. —  No.  Kir;  we  had  no  room  to  kcfp  «*inj»ty  liar- 
tcIh. 

iy — hid  you  not  cuiply  souk-  of  these  harrels  of  coi'iilieef 
on  the  voyajie?     A. — Yen.  sir. 

(i. — \Nhat  did  you  do  with  the  liariels?  A. — Those  we 
needed  we  sawed  u|>  into  talis,  and  those  we  did  not  need — 

Q. — Were  there  any  empty  liarrels  left?     A. — No.  sir. 

(j. — You  did  not  look  inside  the  tliinus  that  went  over  the 
side  of  the  •M'aroleim"?     A. — No.  sir. 
20       Q- — NVho  manned  the  boat?     .V. —  It  was  the  eutter's  nu'U. 

iy — ('.".n  you  tell  whether  the  stuH'  that  was  inside  these 
packap's  came  from  the  "t'arolena"  <u-  was  furnished  from 
the  cutter  to  make  your  men  couifortahle  on  the  way  down? 
.\. — It  eame  from  tlie  "('arolena.'' 

(^ — Mow  did  you  know  if  yon  did  not  look  into  the  pack- 
a>;es?  A. — Heeanse  the  boat  was  there  at  the  "Carolena" 
lo  take  the  stuff  on  board. 

(i.— Did  you  help  loa<I  them?     .\. — No.  I  saw  them  after 
they  were  on  boai'«l  the  "St.  I'anl." 
30      Q. — And   they   had  somethiufi  in   them?     A. — The  barrels 
had  never  been  broaehed  from  the  time  they  left  the  buteher 
shop. 

(2. — They  had  .sometliiu};  in  them  wlien  they  were  on  the 
••St.  Paul"?     A.— Yes.  sir. 

(i. — On  that  trip  up  on  the  'Carolena"  did  you  stop  any- 
wliere?     .V.— We  sto|»ped  at  ('layo(|not. 

(i. — Was  .hdin  A.  Meehtel  on  board  when  yon  left  here  and 
stopped  there?     A. — Yes.  sii'. 

40       Re-direet  examination  l>y  Jlr.  Podw«'ll: 

Q.— What  did  Mr.  Ileehtel  no  on  her  for? 

.Mr.  Dickinson: — I  object  to  that.  You  had  -Mr.  Hechtel 
and  could  examine  him. 

.Mr.  Modwell: — Yoti  asked  that  (piestion  on  cross cxamina 
lion. 

Tile  t'oiiimissioner  on   the  |»art   of   Her  Majesty: — I   think 

.„   Mr.  liodwell  can  ask  what  Mr.  I'.echtel  went  on  board  for. 

.10 

.Mr.  Dickinson: — Then,  may  it  please  your  Ilonmir,  I  desire 
!(•  withdriiw  the  <|uestioii. 

Sir  ('.  II.  TiipjK'r: — You  cannot  withdraw  it;  it  is  too  late. 

The  t'tmimissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  .Majesty: — One  ves- 
sel may  lie  a!.)!>,f.i<le  another  and  a  man  may  ^o  on  board 
and  pass  from  (me  to  another.  If  you  had  to  rest  on  the 
siatement  that  tli(>  man  was  on  board  the  shi])  without  any 
explanation  of  why  he  was  (Ui  board,  then  yon  would  be  help- 
'^'O   less. 

.Mr.  Dickinson: — I  do  not  lliink  your  Honour  caught  th(> 
•piestion.  The  (|iiestion  was  whether  Hechtel  was  on  fhe 
voya>;e  to  tMayo(piot.  I  submit.  y<..ir  Honour,  that  it  is  not 
a  subject  for  reexamination  to  sh<»w  liis  biiHiness  when  he 
was  on  the  ship. 

The  <'(unmissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — I  am  in- 
clined to  think  that  if  you  axk  any  (piesfi(m  (m  cross-exam- 


j. 

ii^ 

■i       *; 


li' 

i  ■ !  ■ .      ,. ; 

^^S.^.; 

'■',     i  -'f' 

^Km  ' 

IR 

■  ^ '  '  ■  ll  ■ 

All 

,i,;j; 

iiiil 

I' 


■!||M,.!i 


^90 

(Diivid  UiiHHt'll — CruMH.) 

tmitloii,  lift'iikini;  iifw  (troiiiHl,  Ih  Im  roiiipftont  for  tlic  otlior 
Hi(l(>  to  t|iialif,v  )iimI  fxpliiiii  it. 

Mr.  DirkiUNoii: — Tlu'ii  I  iiHk  iK-rnilttMioii  to  witdruw  tlic 
<|iu'Htion. 

Sir  ('.  II.  TuiUM'r:— It  1h  too  liitc. 

Tlu*  CoinniiMMioiicr  on  tlic  jmrt  of  Ih-r  MiijoHty: — Onliiiar- 
'^  il.v  \vh*<n  II  ]M>i'Hoii  putH  a  (|u<>Htioii  lit*  (iiiinot  witlidraw  it  an 
a  matter  of  ri^lit. 

Mr.  11imIw»'II: — Siirciv  voiir  lloiionrH  want  any  ii^lit  vou 
«'an  m>t  on  tliiN  Hultji'ct,  and  tliiH  witnt'SH,  I  l>«-li<'v<',  can  ^ive 

The  (3onuniHion«'r  on  tlic  part  of  Her  MajcMt.v: — It  luijjlit 
p<*rha|»H  1)1'  aKHi**!  tliat  Mr.  Ilitkinnon  Hiuinid  liavi-  pi-rniiH- 
Hion  to  witlidniw  tlic  (|iit'.'tion. 

20  Mr.  DickiiiHoii: — If  coiinwl  on  llic  ollior  widf  dcHirc  to 
^^\v^'  the  ('oiiiniiMHioiit'rH  li^lit  on  tliis  Hiilijcct,  tlii*,v  ran  ct-r- 
(aiiil.v  produ(-4'  tlicir  own  witn(>HN  and  make  llicir  own  cvi- 
d«'nc«'. 

Mr.  Modwi-ll: — Here  i8  a  witncsH  called  and  it  is  apparcnr 
that  he  can  throw  li^ht  on  the  Muhjcct  broaclit-d  li.v  the 
defence  in  their  ci-ohh examination.  My  friend,  Mr.  Dicktn- 
Hon,  luiH  hiiimelf  o|M>ned  up  that  Niibject  by  his  croHsexaniin- 
ation.  I  now  state  to  this  coui't  that  I  believe  that  the  wit- 
jO  nesH  can  throw  li^lit  on  that  i|ueHtion  and  can  «'X)ilain  .Mr. 
nechtel's  visit  to  <'layo<|iiot,  and  what  he  did  and  how  lon^; 
hi'  remained  there.  I  state  that  the  court  has  now  an  op- 
jKirtunity  to  tjet  lii^ht  on  that  subject  from  this  witness. 

Mr.  Uickinson: — My  leai-ned  friends  have  had  the  name  of 
this  witness  before  them  all  the  time,  and  if  tiiey  wished 
they  conld  produce  him  to  throw  liKht  on  tlie  subject.  If 
they  were  very  anxious  about  it  tiiey  certainly  could  have 
produced  him  before.  We  endeavored  to  p't  liim,  and  had 
no  ditTicuIty  in  finding  liim,  but  lie  would  not  come  for  as. 
If  the  motive  of  my  learn«>d  friends  is  to  throw  liffht  on  tlie 
subject  they  can  produ<'e  him  as  their  own  witness. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — It 
lias  been  shown  here  before  tiiat  Mr.  Hechtel  went  up  on  this 
vessel. 

Mr.  Difkj'ison: — Yes.  your   Honour. 

Tli'.'  Comiii! <sioner  on  the  part  of  tlie  Tnited  States: — Has 
._   the  witn<'N»  ,ny  personal  kuowledj^e  of  what  Mr.  Bechtel  was 
there  Uiv'i 

Mr.  Hodwell: — Tlie  witness  knows  the  purpose  for  which 
he  was  on  board,  and  knows  for  himself  why  he  happened 
to  be  on  board  shiji. 

The  Coniinissioner  on  the  jiart  of  the  I'nited  States: — You 
did  not  ask  him  that. 

Mr.  Hodwell: — The  tlrst  (]uestion  I  asked  him  was  what 
60  Mr.  Hechtel  went  on  board  for,  and  that  is  all  I  said  when 
Mr.  Dickinson  raise*!  the  objection.  The  (luestion  of  Mr. 
Bechtel's  visit  to  <'lay<»<iiiot  was  opened  up  in  the  examina- 
tion of  (N»tsf<»rd,  a  witness  whom  we  did  not  <"all,  but  whom 
we  would  have  called  if  we  had  time  to  se<'  him  iM'fore  he 
was  broufjht  over  here  and  ready  for  the  witness  box.  This 
witness  <lid  n'\V{'  evidence  about  th;it  visit  of  Rechtel's,  and 
whether  it  was  strictly  technical  or  admissible  did  not  swni 
to  w«'ij{h  before  tliis  triliiinal.       It  is  part  of  the  case  of  the 


40 


J9I 


10 


([•avUI  HiiHMcIl— r'roHH.) 

riiitfd  HtatfH  tliut  H«'flit«'l  wont  tluTi*  hm  oiii*  of  t!i«-  uwnfi-M 
of  tlio  hoiit  for  )i  iMii'poHr  t'lniiiM'ttHl  with  lu'i'  vo.viiKo;  that 
lit'  took  imi-t  in  ii  trar.Hjiilion  wiiirii  wax  coum-cttHl  with  th*' 
vovajj*',  and  wliicli.  if  tlicii*  tlii'ory  lie  coi'ivct.  would  stamp 
liini  in  sonic  iiK-aNiiri'  <'itlit*r  an  tlio  owikt  of  tin-  boat  or  aH 
intt-ri'Htod  in  (lie  rt'snlt  of  tli*'  voyap*.  Hnrcl.v  that  Hhonid  Im* 
iiKpiircd  into.  It  Ih  not  our  case;  it  Ih  the  rau'  of  tho 
Initcd  Htat«K. 

Tlu'  roniuiiHHioniT  on  tlio  part  of  the  I'nltod  Htatt'H: — Mr. 
IMclvintton  Na.VH  that  lu*  dot-H  not  caio  to  ralHo  tht*  ((iioHtion  in 
tliiH  wa.v.  If  you  want  to  prov*-  why  Mr.  lloohtol  wont 
tlu'i'o.  iH  it  not  liottor  for  yon  to  provo  it  in  yonr  own  easo, 
ratlior  than  hy  ro  oxaniination  of  thiH  witnoHH? 

Mr.  Bodwoll: — Hero  in  tlio  poHition  wo  are  in,  aftor  our 
caHo  luiH  advaiifod  t«)  tlio  hint  Hiago,  thiH  inattor  \h  for  tho 
tii'Ht  tiino  broupht  up  out  of  tlio  mouth  of  a  witnoNM  calltnl 
20  hy  tho  I'nitod  StatoH.  Wlion  wo  attonyit  to  oxplain  tho  olr 
t-uniHtautoH  iindor  wliicli  Mr.  Mochtol  wont  tlioro  wo  aro  mot 
with  an  ohjootion  and  if  wo  should  call  another  witnoHH  wo 
would  Ik>  told,  as  wo  havo  boon  told,  that  our  case  is  closod, 
and  that  wo  could  only  call  now  in  robuttal.  I  submit  that 
tliis  is  robuttal  tostinumy  and  I  submit  ositecially  that  this 
allocation  apiinst  our  witness  is  put  in  as  part  of  the  ease 
of  the  I'nitod  Htates. 


30 


40 


60 


Tho  t'oniniissioiior  on  tlio  part  of  Uer  Majesty: — Is  that 
(piito  clear? 

.Mr.  Hodwoll: — It  never  apiK'ared  in  tho  caso  until  Cotsford 
was  put  in  the  box. 

Mr.  Dickin'-on: — The  reason  it  did  not  appear  was  that  Mr. 
Kcchtel  swore  he  wont  on  the  "('arolona"  to  say  ijood-byo 
to  t^aptain  O^ilvio  and  only  for  that  pHi'{)oso.  I'liat  appeared 
on  crjhsoxaniinatiou. 

.Mr.  Hodwoll: — My  learued  friend's  recollection  of  tlio  evi- 
dence is  not  quit*'  correct. 

'llu  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — It  does 
Hooni  to  mo  that  it  having  come  out  Aral:  as  a  matter 
which  could  not  have  boon  expected  and  it  being  broached 
hy  Mr.  Dickinson  on  his  cross  e.xaiuination  of  this  witnoss, 
that  it  is  open  for  you  to  ask  further  about  it.  Kvidontly 
tlu-  (piestion  must  have  boon  asked  by  -Mr.  Dickinson  for  the 
Iiurpose  of  dialleuging  the  testimony  upon  that  point.  It 
liaving  some  r«'al  value  in  the  caso,  I  presume  it  is  open  for 
you  to  (pialify  it  in  order  to  rebut  inferences  which  ('thcr- 
wiso  might  naturally  bo  deducted.  If  you  can  qualify  the 
inferences  that  havo  be<>n  drawn  then  I  think  tho  question 
ought  to  be  allowed. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — It  goes  in  in  tho  form  of  rebuttal. 

Tho  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — It  is 
|MU't  of  their  ndmttal. 

The  < 'oinmissionor  on  tho  part  of  Her  Majesty: — Yes,  and 
growing  out  of  the  (piestion  you  put.  it  is  a  proper  question 
for  reexamination.  Suppose  you  had  asked  if  I  were  there, 
tho  witness  would  be  allowed  to  «'Xplaiii  the  i'ircumstunces 
iiiidor  which  I  was  there.  Anything  which  would  tend  to 
qualify  the  incideut  might  bo  allowed. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Then  under  that  understanding  I  do  not 
«)bj<'ct. 

Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Bodwcll  continued: 


I 


-Ml 


!,   If'.    ,.- 


li 


i. :!■':!';! 


■Itl'V-l 


10 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


592 

(l>ilVi(l     KllS»«t'l| «."l(»MM.J 

H. — Do  you  know  why  Mr.  Ht'chlcl  wi'iil  aboard  tin-  vchhvI 
and  what  his  purpoHt'  was?       A. — 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  objt'ct  to  that.  I  do  not  want  tht'  wit- 
n<'HH  to  give  a  conclusion  of  his  own. 

Mf.  Uodwell:— Well,  1  will  awk:  g.— When  did  Mr.  Hcchtcl 
},o  on  hoard?      A. — The  day  we  left  here.  I  lu'licve. 

Q. — What  did  he  do  on  hoard?  A. — U«'  did  no!  do  auy- 
tliinfi;  hut  gt't  sick,  from  what  I  could  see  of  him. 

y. — He  was  sick  all  the  way.  was  he?      A. —  >'e>',  sir. 

Q. — X'ery  sick?  .\. — \vs:  he  was  in  bed  most  all  the 
time 

Q. — Me  was  on  board  when  you  jiol  to  t'l'iyoipnU?  A. — 
\  es.  sir. 

Q. — What  did  you  do  wlu>n  you  >;ot  to  t'la.'.oqin  ♦?  .\. — 
Went  ashore. 

g. — Where  did  he  ^o'!  .\. —  He  w«'nt  into  the  store.  I  be 
lii've.  and  stay«'d  there. 

Q. — How  lonji  did  he  stay  there?  .\. — I  would  not  be 
sure  now  whetlu-r  it  was  a  day  and  a  half  or  two  days. 

Q. — Then  wh(>re  did  he  fji*?       .\. — He  went  to  .Mberni. 

Q. — Did  yon  hear  anything  during;  the  cours(>  of  the  voyape 
from  him,  from  .Mr.  Mechtel.  which  would  indicate  what  his 
purpose  was  in  taking;  that   trip? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — 1  object  to  that.  That  is  clearly  hear 
say. 

The  CommissioniM"  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — Then' are 
cases,  of  c<»urs«',  where  statements  made  by  him  inip;ht  be 
explanatory  of  his  acts. 

Mr.  Dickinson ; — That  is  not  the  best  evidence,  my  lord,  of 
that,  because  Hechtel  is  lier(>  an<l  can  be  ex;nnined. 

Mr.  Hodwell: — It  is  part  of  the  res  ffestae. 

The  < Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — .Vnytliinj; 
he  would  say  as  an  ex])lanali(>ii  of  his  bein);  there  mi^ht  be 
taken  as  a  decl.iration  as  to  his  acts. 

Mr.  Dickinson :^.\><  part   <»f  tiie  i-es  yrestae? 

The  <^ommissi(iner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majtsty: — Yes.  that 
would  be  it. 

>[r.  Dickinson: — With  ISeclilel  liere  I  submit,  with  >{reat 
respect,  your  Loidsliip,  it  would  be  hardly  rijilit  to  supi>ort 
his  previous  testimony  bv  Mtatements  as  to  what  he  said. 
That  witness  has  .-^aid  certain  things,  and  I  am  confldent  that 
on  the  ar;;umenv  I  shall  convince  your  Honours  that  Itechlel 
on  his  testimony  is  not   to  be  believed  at  all. 

Mr.  T'eters: — I  submit,  youi'  Honours,  that  it  is  not  fair  to 
mak(>  that  stat<>ment  in  artruiu};  this  point. 

Mr.   Dickinson. —  '"■'  have  no  jur\'  here. 

Mr.  T'eters:-  It  does  not  matl<'r.  I  do  not  think  the 
statement  should  be  mad* . 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  am  only  makinu  it  for  illustration;  let 
nie  finish. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  do  object  to  such  remarks  beinR  made  in 
regard  to  a  witness,  and  which  lemarks  are  a  little  unnecos- 
Hiiry. 

.Mr.  Dickinson: — I  use  it  for  illustration,  and  I  intend  later 
on  to  make  the  proposition  I  have  slated.     The  witness  has 


593 


I J 


20 


30 


'iO 


5.T 


60 


iI>Hviil  K11S8)  II — DisciiHsion.) 

Im'cu  attsickfd  hy  hh,  in  niiHW<.>r  (o  lii»  Htatciiieut  tliat  he  only 
\v«>nt  to  the  ship  to  »»\  goodbyi'  io  the  ciipfaiu.  We  put  on  a 
witnesH  to  show  that  he  went  on  a  voyage  some  two  or  thret? 
hundred  luilen  up  to  this  phue.  Now,  we  Hubinit  with  great 
conttdence  that  the.v  eannot  jnit  a  stranger  in  Ihe  box  to  helji 
Heehtel's  evidence  out  by  statements  that  IJeclitel  made  as 
to  his  purpose  on  that  shij)  on  that  voyage.  It  is  mere  hear- 
say. If  ilehctel  stated  his  pur])ose  falsely,  and  if  we  eonld 
show  tliat  his  statement  was  false,  under  the  power  this 
Tribunal  has  we  miglit  raise  anitther  issue,  personal  to  Mr. 
l?t'('htel.  We  cannot  attacli  his  statement  that  is  said  to 
Iiave  been  conveyed  in  the  hearing  of  this  man,  so  as  to  bring 
that  statement  home  to  Heclitel,  nor  could  Ilechtel  be  pun- 
islied  for  it  if  it  were  not  true.  In  vit-w  of  the  state  of  the 
iccard,  we  submit  that  it  is  very  dangerous  to  permit  hear- 
say testimony  of  that  kind. 

The  Conimissi<mer  on  tlie  pari  of  tlu'  Fnited  States: — Do 
you  claim  that  Mr.  Ik'chtel  has  any  beneficiary  interest  in 
tliis  vessel? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Y«'s,  your  ITononr. 

Q. — And  you  put  in  your  evidence  to  contradict  this  state- 
ment that  he  only  went  down  to  say  goodbye  to  the  <ai»tain? 
You  asked  your  question  for  the  purpose  of  showing  that  he 
had  an  interest  in  the  vessel? 

Mr.  Dickinson : — I'recisely. 

Tlie  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Why 
sliould  not  the  question  be  limited  as  to  whether  he  said  any- 
liiing  on  the  voyage  as  to  the  management  of  the  vessel? 

Mr.  Dickinson- — That  was  expressly  ruled  out  when  I  asked 
I  lie  question  of  John  (Jotsford,  a  member  of  the  crew.  I 
have  a  distinct  r«>coIlection  of  asking  that  witness  as  to 
whether  the  i-rew  un<h'rstood  from  him  that  he  was  one  of 
the  owners  of  that  ship,  and  that  was  promptly  ruled  out. 

Tlie  Commissioner  on  the  jtart  of  the  United  States: — I 
think  it  naturally  w»>uld  be  in  that  form. 

Mr.  Dickinson; — Of  course  it  would  lie  if  he  were  an  ordi- 
nary willing  wiinesB,  but  he  was  one  of  the  crew  of  the  "Cn- 
rolena." 

Mr.  Bodwell:— Mr.  Dickinson  asked  Cotsford:  "Was  Bech- 
(cl  n^  naging  ovtiier  of  the  Carolena?"  and  after  our  objec- 
!i(iri  that  was  ruled  out.  Cotsford  was  liien  examined  by 
Vu:  Dickinson  as  to  what  Mr.  Itechtel  did  on  the  schooner 
while  jn  the  way  to  Clayocpiot. 

Tie  ('ommissioner  on  the  part  of  llu'  United  States: — I  do 
i;i>*  reiiieniber  taking  part  in  isny  ruling  as  to  Mr.  lU'chtel 
wliile  on  board  the  vessel  undertaking  to  give  any  directions 
iiltout  that  vessel. 

Mr.  Rodwell: — Your  Honour  did  not  make  that  rnling.  The 
iiiiiiig  which  the  Court  made,  and  which  was  perfectly  prop- 
<'i'.  (  belii>ve,  was  that  the  question  as  to  who  was  the  nian- 
iigiiig  owner  of  the  "i^arolena"  shiMild  be  jiroved  by  the  re- 
con!  and  not  by  the  witness. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  ini  lerstood  the  ruling  precisely  as  my 
learned  friend  has  stated,  and  I  promptly  obeyed  that  rule 
without  arguing  it. 

The  (Commissioner  on  the  pait  of  Her  Majesty: — Do  you 
tliiiik,  Mr.  Di'  {iiison,  that  the  ruling  was  not  a  projier  one? 
If   'le  wInesH  was  asked  what  the  crew  understood  Mr.  Hech- 


fi 


ii 


i  I! 


Ill 


1 


\mwM 


'!' 


'•It'll 


Hi 


30 


594 
(iMivid  Hlm^4ell — IHHcussion.) 

tel  to  be.  would  not  that  relate  to  their  nnderstandlu^  of  it 
rather  than  as  k)  what  he  said  or  did  to  inipresM  them  with 
that  understandiufj?  I  have  no  recollection  of  it,  but  it 
niijjht  be  that  an  objection  of  that  sort  would  be  a  good  one 
to  such  a  question. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Doubtless.      On  a  ship  at  sea,  the  general 
ivpute  as  to  who  is  (he  managing  owner  or  the  owner  of  the 
10  ship,  as  understood  by  the  crew  of  Ihat  ship,  would,  I  think, 
be  competent  evidence  of  (lie  ownership. 

The  (.'omniissioner  on  the  part  of  the  Tnited  States: — 1 
would  not  hesitate  a  moment  about  ruling  that  out.  I  re- 
collect that  in  ref(>rence  to  the  "San  Diego"  it  was  said  that 
she  was  registered  in  the  name  of  Mr.  Hechtel.  There  was 
a  (juestion  alM)ut  Mr.  Munsie  being  the  managing  owner,  and 
.Mr.  J'eters  said  it  could  only  be  proved  by  the  record.  I 
know  perfectly  well  (hat  if  you  are  conlined  to  the  record 
2Q  you  never  could  prove  that  any  vessel  was  whitewashed. 
Speaking  for  myself,  I  said  at  the  time  distinctly  that  we 
were  not  gov<*rned  by  the  record  as  to  whether  a  person  had 
a  beneficial  interest  in  the  vessel  or  not,  for  the  purpose  of 
this  hearing.  That  is  the  only  ruling  T  remember.  j ;  is  is 
a  (juestion  of  reputation. 

Mr.  Dickinson; — Not  a  cpu'stion  of  reputation  (  1;  ;■  )  .cs 
tion  of  his  treatment  of  a  crew  and  cajjtain  on  bi..'("d  'hip. 

The  Commissioner  on, (he  part  of  the  United  States: — You 
had  iM'tter  tind  the  record. 

M '.  Dickinson: — The  (|ues(ion  of  repute  came  ont  incident 
ally  for  (he  jairpose  of  showing  that  there  was  nothing  iu 
the  a<ts  or  in  the  conversation  to  antagonize  that. 

The  ('(mimissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — The  Ian 
guage  that  a  man  used  at  the  time  of  doing  an  action  thai  is 
in  question,  if  it  fairly  tends  to  qinilify  the  act,  is  admissible 
evidence,  I  think.      Of  course  not,  if  it  is  after  the  act  and 
by  way  of  an  evasion. 

The  CommissiiMier  on  (he  jiarf  of  the  Tnited  States: — I  do 
not  believe  that  I  agreed  (o  any  ruling  such  as  Mr.  Dickin 
son  speaks  of. 

.Mr.  Itodwell: — .Mdiough  (he  objeclicm  was  (aken  by  Air. 
I'e(ers  it  was,  I  may  state,  suggested  by  me.  I  know  the 
ground  on  which  I  made  the  suggestion  and  (he  ground  or 
which  I  unders(ood  your  Honours  to  rule.  .Mr.  Di>  kinsoi 
asked  Cotsford:  "Who  was  (he  managing  owner  ol  tli<' 
"Ciifolena?"  The  objection  which  I  (hough(  tenable  to  tii.i^ 
()uestion  was  this:  That  tinder  our  shipping  law  the  man 
5°  aging  owner  of  a  vessel  has  to  be  r<'gistered  as  such,  and 
that  the  ])roper  way  to  ]irove  (hat  was  by  producing  (he  re 
cord.  Your  llonoui-s  ruled,  as  I  understo<Kl,  upon  (iiat 
ground.  Mr.  Dickinson  was  not  stopped  at  all  in  his  e.xani 
inadon.  and  we  did  no(  (ake  any  <»bjec(ion.  Mr.  Dickinson 
was  not  s(op|ied  in  asking  what  Itechtel  did  on  board  tin 
ship,  or  anydiing  he  did  after  lu>  got  to  ("layoquot. 

The  rommissioner  (U.  (he  i»ar(  of  Her  Majes(y: — Mr.  I)i>' 
ins(Hi  could  ask  one  of  (he  crew,  "Did     Hechiel     do     t^n-h 
60   (lungs."  but  I  do  not  think  it  competent  (o  ask  "Was  he    t; 
managing  owner." 

.Mr.  Dickinson:— This  is  (he  precise  ruling,  which  is  (o  l>'' 
found  on  i)age  t7(>,  in  (he  evid""C'>  of  .lohn  t'otsford: 

"Q. —  In  (Ills  business  up  (i,   1  ■.  or  in  lii'  business  for  (he 
"Caidlena"  on  (his  (rip.  will  ,11  jdease  staie  who  (he  nieii 
were  considering  managing  owneis? 
Mr.  Itechtel 


40 


Mr.  Munsie  and 


..jmHRh^mi 


m 


10 


595 
(David  UiiMHoll — Discussion.) 

"Mr.  IVters: — Wait  a  moincut;  I  submit  Uiat  a  intTP  t'ln- 
ployce  ou  a  ship  is  not  a  propur  jHTSon  to  prove  tliat  by;  it 
assumes  sonu'tliin^;  in  tlie  first  |)Ia(t>  it  assumes  lliat  lie  was 
owner.  It  is  proved  here  already,  I  tliink,  tliat  Mr.  Munsie 
was  owner;  but  to  ask  a  mere  employee  who  was  the  owner 
of  the  shij)  surely  cannot  be  done.  If  there  were  two  own- 
ers it  would  1k'  on  the  rejjister;  and  if  there  was  a  manapn^ 
owner  it  would  be  on  the  rej^ister. 

"Mr.  Dickinson: — We  think  this  is  suitabh'  aiitlientic  test! 
niony,  may  it  please  your  Honours,  to  show  who  the  employ- 
ees were  looking;  up  to  on  the  whole  trip,  in  connection  with 
the  other  testimony. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Iler  Majesty: — You  can 
}jive  evidence  as  to  what  he  did.  Mr.  Dickinson,  from  which 
tlM'  conclusi(m  mifjlit  be  drawn,  but  you  cannot,  I  think,  ask 
that  question. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  T^nited  Stat«'s: — 
What  was  d<uie  or  said — what  actually  took  phice.  Mr. 
IVters  made  an  objection  that  it  must  ai>pear  in  the  papers 
of  the  vessel.       That  is  another  proposition  entirely. 

"Mr.  Dickinson: — I  quite  understand  the  objection  and  the 
ruling." 

When  your  Lordship  made  that  rulin};,  I  abided  by  it  at 
once  without  arfjument,  as  T  always  do. 

The  Oommissioner  on  the  |)art  oi'  Her  Majesty: — You  could 
ffive  evidence  as  to  what  he  did,  but  I  do  not  think  you  could 
30  ask  that  question. 

Mr.Dickinson : — The  next  statement  that  I  made  after  that 
was  that  I  quite  understood  the  ruling  and  I  then  procwded 
to  ask  as  to  the  actions  of  IJechtel. 

Mr.  l*ett>i"s: — The  question  of  Mr.  Dickinson's  which  was 
ol)jected  to  was  as  to  whom  the  crew  thought  was  the  manag- 
ing owner. 

Mr.  Hodwell: — And  just  before  that  Mr.  Dickinson  was  al- 
lowed to  prove  that  Hechtel  superintended  the  putting  in  of 
'^^  ribs  in  the  canoes. 


20 


5-:)r 


m 


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Mr.   Tetei-s: — After  that   the  record  goes  on   to  sj\y: 
"The  ( 'ommissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — I  do 
not   think  the  Commissioners  intend  to  give  effect   to   that 
objection,  at  the  present  at  any  rate,  if  they  do  at  all.      That 
is  a  broader  objection  than  the  on<'  we  ar<»  considering." 

The  objection  was  not  to  Mr.  Dickinson  pntving  the  acts 

of  Mr.  Hechtel,  and  in  connection  with  that  we  now  propose 

to  give  an  explanation  of  his  acts  by  showing  what  other  acts 

S^''   he  did,  and  the  statements  accompanying  them  at  the  time. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — As  to  the  (piestion  of  the  manager,  take 
'le  case  of  the  building.  Suppose  a  man  who  works  under 
the  manag(>r  or  the  ordinary  boss  who  has  charge  of  the  con- 
Inict  for  the  building,  is  called  and  is  asked  to  say  that  the 
boss  told  him  that  he  was  the  boss,  would  that  be  ruled  out? 
Is  it  not  always  c<»nsid«'red  comjtetent  testimony  to  bring  a 
substantive  fa<t  as  to  who  was  Fuanager  of  any  sort  of  work 
byproving  how  the  men  engaged  in  that  work  treated  the 
^>o  man  whom  they  thought  was  the  luiss,  and  so  considered 
him? 

The  ("ommissioner  on  tlie  jiart  of  Tier  Majesty: — There  is 
it  little  distiiK'tion  then*.  You  used  the  word  "treated,"  a 
word  which  might  have  availed  you  in  this  case. 

Mr.  Dickinson. — I  meant  "considering  him,"  or  showing 
him  "consideration"  as  the  manager. 


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(Diivic!   KuHNi'll— Hfdircc't.) 

The  (JuininiH^ioner  on  the  part  of  Ifcr  Mnjtsfy:— We  do 
not  apprehend  liie  qucHtion  in  that  light. 

Mr.  Dickinson:—!  never  lij<e  to  arffne  a  question  after  it 
is  decided,  and.  as  usual,  when  I  li«'ard  from  your  Lordsliip 
I  submitted  gracefully,  without  argument,  against  a  ruling 
BO  decisive. 

10  The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States:— 
What  I  propose  now  is  that  this  witness  should  be  clearl.* 
confined  within  the  rule  laid  down  at  that  time,  aud  which 
«'very  one  acceded  to.  I  propose  that  the  (juestion  shall  be 
kept  strictly  within  the  line  as  to  what  he  did  say  on  board 
ship  with  reference  to  the  control  or  direction  of  the  prop- 
erty. 

By  Mr.  Bodwell: — (Question  repeated)— Q. — Did  you  hear 
anything  during  the  course  of  the  voyage  from  him.  from  Mr. 
20  Bechtel.  which  would  indicate  what  his  purpose  was  in  tak- 
ing this  trip? 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  Rtates:— Does 
not  that  question  seem  to  be  more  objectionable  than  the 
question  ruled  out  from  Mr.  Dickinson? 

Mr.  Bodwell; — The  question  we  have  to  ascertain,  with  all 
deference,  is  in  what  capacity  Mr.  Bechtel  was  on  board  ship; 
if  he  was  there  as  a  passenger  he  could  not  be  there  as  owner. 

30  The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — One  ob- 
jection to  that  is,  that  it  rather  jnits  it  in  the  hands  of  the 
witness  to  say  ^xhat  does  or  does  not  indicate  his  purpose. 

Mr.  Bodwell: — I  will  ask  the  witness  what  Mr.  Bechtel  did. 

By  Mr.  Bodwell: — Q. — Mr.  Russell,  did  you  have  anything 
to  do  with  putting  the  ribs  in  the  canoes?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Did  yo»i  see  Mr.  Bechtel  when  you  were  doing  so?  A. 
— I  believe  I  ha^e  seen  him  there  once  or  twice. 

Q. — Did  he  have  anything  to  do  or  anything  to  say  ujmn 
40  that  sul»ject  or  with  reference  to  that  work?  A. — No.  sir; 
Ed.  Shields  was  th«>  one  that  bossed  the  job. 

Q. — The  question  I  ask  you  is,  did  Mr.  Bechtel  have  any- 
thing to  do  or  give  any  orders  with  reference  to  that  work? 
A. — No.  sir;  no.  that  I  know  of. 

Q. — Were  you  ther.^  all  the  time  that  was  being  done?  A. 
— Well,  most  of  the  time  I  was. 

Q. — Did  Bechtel  give  you  any  directions  or  orders  about 
that  matter?      A. — No,  sip. 

5^       Mr.  Dickinson:— I  object  to  that. 

Q. — Did  you  hear  him  give  any  directions  or  orders  to  any 
one  else?      A. — No. 

Q. — Did  you  hear  him  give  any  orders  or  directions  to  any- 
body with  refer<nce  to  the  vessel,  her  voyage,  or  any  work 
that  was  done  about  the  vessel,  while  you  were  at  Clayociuot? 

Mr.  Dickinson : — I  objct  to  that. 

Mr.  Bodwell:— It  seems  to  me  that  this  question  is  within 
60  the  ruling  as  to  whether  anything  was  done  or  said. 

The  Commisioner  on  the  pait  of  the  United  States: — You 
did  not  say  "on  board  shii*." 

Mr.  Bodwell:— I  will  put  it  in  another  way. 

Q. — Did  you  hear  him  give  any  such  oiders  or  (rircctions 
to  anybody  on  board  the  ship  during  the  voy.ige  from  Victo- 
ria to  Clayoquot?      A. — \o,  sir. 

Q.— Or  at  Cl.iyoquot?      A.— No,  sir, 


?97 


■■/ r: 


10 


20 


40 


;o 


Co 


(David  UiiHscll — Kch  nms.) 
Uf-(  r<)SH-»'.\aiiiinii(i«)!i  by  Mr.  IMckiiiHon: 

Q. — Now,  sir,  was  Uechtel  sick  before  he  went  on  the  ship 
iit  Victoria  or  did  he  get  seasick?      A. — He  got  seasick. 

Q. — How  long  did  you  lay  at  Clayoqnot?  A. — I  cannot 
remember  exactly. 

Q. — About?  A. — Well,  between  four  and  six  days,  I  think; 
I  would  not  be  sure. 

Q. — What  did  yon  do  there  yourself  personally?  A — I 
liclped  put  ribs  into  four  canm's. 

Q. — The  putting  in  of  those  ribs  was  down  there  at  « Mayo- 
•luot,  was  it?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

il. — And  the  canoes  were  brought  aboard?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Were  the  ribs  put  in  on  board?      A. — Ashore. 

Q. — Put  in  ashoi-e?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Whereabouts  were  the  canoes  when  the  ribs  wore  put 
in?      A. — On  the  beach. 

Q. — And  were  the  ribs  steamed?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Where  were  they  steamed?      A. — Ashore. 

Q. — What  method  was  used  to  steam  them?  A. — We 
made  a  steam  box. 

Q. — Now,  was  Hechtel  about  there  when  you  were  doing 
this?  A.r— I  had  seen  him  around  there  two  or  tliree  times, 
probably. 

Q. — And  Shields  was  doing  Ihe  work  principally?  A. — Ye.«. 
sir. 

Q.— Did  Bechtel  take  hold  to  help  at  all?  A.— I  was  help- 
ing myself. 

(i.— Did  Bechtel  take  hold  to  help?  A.— No,  sir,  I  didn't 
stH'  him. 

Q.— What  did  he  seem  to  be  doing?  A.— Doing  nothing, 
h»>  was  sick  on  shore. 

Q. — Was  he  abed?      A. — No,  sir,  he  was  around. 

(J, — How  do  you  know  where  he  went  to?  You  said  after 
staying  there  two  days  he  went  off?  A. — He  told  me  he  was 
going  to  Alberni. 

y. — Did  you  see  him  again?  A. — Not  until  I  got  back  to 
Seattle. 

Q. — There  is  no  doubt  whatever  that  the  ribs  of  those  can- 
<u>8  were  put  in,  is  there?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — There  is  no  doubt  about  it,  is  there,  that  the  canoes 
were  not  on  the  "(Jarolena"  when  she  left  Victoria  to  go 
there?      A. — No,  sir,  they  wasn't  on  it. 

Q. — And  how  long  after  you  got  there  did  the  canoes  ap- 
IM'ar,  did  you  see  them?  A. — When  I  went  on  there  they 
were  on  the  beach. 

(i.— The  four  of  them?      A.— Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  have  anything  to  do  with  putting  them  on  the 
bi'ach?      A. — No,  sir. 

(.1. — X«»w,  when  you  got  there,  how  long  after  you  arrived 
did  Mr.  Bechtel  go  ashore?      A. — I  can't  remember  exactly. 

Q, — Did  he  go  pretty  promptly;  he  was  there  sick,  wasn't 
he?  A. — Yes,  he  went  there,  probably,  I  think,  within  six 
hours. 

t^. — Did  you  go  ashore,  too?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

<}. — Did  you  stay  there?      A. — N(»t  altogether. 

Q. — Did  Bechtel  stay  there  at  nights?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

(i. — Didn't  go  back  to  the  ship,  you  stayed  on  the  shore  at 
nights?      .\.— Yes.  sir. 

Q. — .\nd  how  l«»ng  did  you  slay  when  you  first  went  on 
shore?      A, — I  dcm't  remember,  a  part  of  the  day  anyway. 

Q. — How  long  after  you  got  there  did  the  canw^s  appear? 
A. — The  cano<>s  were  tliere  when  I  first  went  ashore,  if  I  r<'- 
member  light, 
(i.— Are  you  (msitive  alMtut  that?       .\.— I  think  s<». 


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20 


30 


S98 

(David  ItuHHcll — Re  cross — Ro-direct.) 

Q. — Did  ytni  see  any  Indians  about  tlipre?  A. — Tlicrc 
wt'iT  two  or  tliroe  Indian  bouses  eloso  to  where  the  canoes 
were,  I  (hinli. 

Q. — Did  you  Ivuow  an  Indian  named  "Indian  Jimniie?" 
A. — Not  by  nanu',  I  did  not. 

Q. — Do  you  linow  of  a  man  witli  some  Indian  blood  by  the 
name  of  Michael  Hereault?  A. — I  know  there  was  a  store- 
kiH'iMT  in  t\u}  place  thei-e,  a  dark  man;  1  don't  know  wlu'ther 
there  was  any  Indian  blood  in  him. 

Q. — Was  he  around?      A. — He  was  around  the  store. 

(J. — Did  you  hav«'  any  talk  with  liim  at  all?  A. — Not  that 
1  iiMuemlH-r;  I  don't  remember  beinjf  around  the  store  at  all. 

Q. — Yon  will  not  swear  that  the  canoes  were  all  there  to- 
pether,  or  that  they  came  singly?  A. — They  were  all  there 
together  when  I  first  seen  them. 

R»'-I>irect  e.\aminntion  by  Mr.  Rodwell. 

(i. — .Inst  descrilK'  how  they  were  and  where  they  were, 
.\. — If  I  renu'mber  right  they  were  lying  right  inside  of  the 
wharf.  There  was  a  kind  of  a  wharf  with  a  shed  on  it 
then',  and  right  there  there  were  three  or  four  Indian  houses. 

Q. — AVere  they  altogether?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q — Do  you  know  why  they  were  there  in  that  position? 
A. — I  was  told — 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Never  mind  what  j'ou  wer.    told. 

Witness: — I  understood  they  belonged  to  the  "Carolena." 

Q. — And  ready  to  be  taken  aboard?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  submit  that  this  is  hearsay  testimony. 

Mr.  Rodwell: — I  should  think  it  would  be  among  the  de 
clarations  that  a  man  <onld  make,  ('aptain  Ogilvie  being 
dead.  I  was  going  to  ask  who  told  him.  There  could  j)os- 
.Mbly  be  no  object  in  misstating  the  fact  at  that  time,  it  is 
in  the  course  of  his  duty  as  master  of  the  ship.  He  was  the 
(me  t"  take  charge  of  these  things. 

The  Cimmiissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  Stat«>8: — I  do 
not  quite  understand,  Mr.  Rodwell,  why  it  is  not  all  covered 
by  your  oiicning  case? 

Mr.  Rodwell: — I  will  just  ask  the  witness  who  told  him, 
and  have  the  Commissioners  rule  on  it. 

(To  witness.)  Q.— Who  told  you  that?  A.— That  the 
canoes  were  there? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Never  mind. 

Mr.  Rodwell: — Am  I  to  go  on  or  not?  1  ask  the  witness 
who  told  him  that.  He  has  just  stated  that  he  was  told 
that  the  canoes  were  put  there  to  be  delivered,  and  that  they 
were  for  tlu'  schooner. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — You 
covered  all  that  in  your  opening  case^  Mr.  Rodwell,  have  you 
not? 

Mr.  Rodwell :— The  evidence  of  Cotsford  is  that  the  canoes 
g^  wer»'  bought  after  th.'  arrival  of  the  ship  at  Clayoquot;  and 
he  was  there  and  saw  them  purchase  and  ship  one  canoe;  he 
speaks  of  it  having  been  bought  at  fU. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty:— It  docs 
not  seem  to  me  that  this  is  admissible. 

Ry  Mr.  Rodwell: 

Q. — You  say  that  Mr.  Rechtol  told  )'ou  thnt  he  was  going 
to  .\llM>rni?  A. — Yes,  sir. 


40 


50 


10 


20 


30 


40 


10 


6o 


599 
(David  Riissoll— Ru-di  fi'tt.) 
Q.— Did  he  tt'U  you  why? 
Mr.  DifkiiiHoii : — I  object. 

Mr.  Bodwcll: — Mr.  DiokinHon  askod  him  a  quostion.  and 
ill  the  course  of  his  answer  he  draws  out  half  of  the  conver- 
sation, or  a  part  of  the  conversation. 

Tlie  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  T'nited  States: — You 
asked  him  wliere  he  went.  He  said  he  went  to  Alherni.  Mr. 
Dickinson  asked  liim  liow  he  knew,  and  lie  said  because  he 
told  him  that  he  was  goin^;. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — If  I  had  had  a  jur^I  would  have  moved 
to  strike  it  out,  but  1  did  not  think  it  would  make  any  dif- 
ference. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — It 
simply  goes  to  show  that  his  whole  testimony  about  going  tu 
Alberni  should  be  stricken  out. 

Mr.  Bodwell: — Your  Honours,  it  seems  to  me  that  when 
part  of  a  statement  goes  in,  if  it  has  any  relevancj  at  all,  the 
whole  should  go  in. 

The  Commlssipner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — So 
far  as  I  am  concerned,  I  think  the  whole  statement  should 
go  out  about  his  going  to  Albenii,  but  how  is  all  this  going 
to  interest  the  Commissioners?  What  does  it  all  amount 
to  when  you  got  it  in? 

Mr.  Bodwell: — Of  course,  if  I  understand  my  friend's  posi- 
tion, it  seems  to  me  all  these  (|uestions  will  be  very  import- 
iiiit,  because,  as  I  understand,  they  have  opened  the  case  in 
this  way,  and  I  understand  Mr.  Dickinson  to  have  stated  u 
few  minutes  ago  that  he  attacked  Mr.  Bechtel's  testimony. 
Further,  that  he  contended  Mr.  Bechtel  was  intere8t«>d  in 
that  ship  and  went  to  ClayiMjuot  for  that  purpose. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Do 
you  regard  it  as  important  to  prove  that  Mr.  Bechtel  went 
to  Alberni? 

Mr.  Bodwell: — Certainly. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — Then 
why  do  you  not  call  the  witness  who  knows  it? 

Mr.  Bodwell: — Because  Mr.  Dickinson  says  he  does  not  be- 
lieve my  wltnes,  and  1  wanted  to  substantiate  his  testimony. 

Hy  Mr.  Bodwell: 

Q. — There  is  one  question  that  I  ought  to  have  asked.  You 
were  asked  about  u  conversation  with  Mr.  lt(»\vliind.  Do 
you  remember  that  in  your  cross-examination?  State  all 
tliat  occurred  between  you?       A. — Wt-ll,  him  and  Cotsford 

•  ame  up  to  the  house,  and  he  asked  me  if  I  had  been  on  the 
"t'aioleua,"  and  1  told  him  yes  that  I  had  been  there  in  18^t.. 
;ind  he  asked  nie  if  I  knew  about  forty  and  odd  boxes  pilot 
liread  that  was  aboard,  and  I  told  him  I  couldn't  say.  With 
tliat  I  asked  him  who  he  was  and  what  he  wanted,  and  he  gave 
ine  the  reasons,  and  I  told  him  because  I  wasn't  clear  of  the 

•  iKsel  and  I  thought  \f  I  gave  testimony  there  it  would  be 
iigainst  my  own  interest,  until  I  found  out  what  I  was  to  do; 
Mild  he  asked  me  if  I  would  come  over  here  »*!  a  witness, 
and  I  told  him  no.  Then  he  asked  me  what  my  interest 
was  in  the  vessel,  and  I  told  I  im  it  all  depended  what  they 
irot.  If  they  got  what  they  were  suing  for  it  would  b(>  some- 
where around  $''•(>.  He  said:  "You  will  nevev  get  it,"  and 
1  said  "all  right.'  lie  started  to  tell  me  then  about  witness 
lees,  but  I  shut  !iim  up,  and  I  told  him  I  don't  want  to  liave 


n 


!i 


4>\v-; 


lO 


20 


30 


600 

(David  UiiHMcll — Kr diirct — KerrosH.) 

any  more  to  sav  about  it.  Ho  told  mo  thor*'  was  no  gi-oat 
liariu  dono,  and  lie  wont  off. 

Q. — What  did  ho  start  to  toll  yon  about,  witnoss  foes?  A. 
— Abont  witnofls  foos. 

Q. — How  far  (|id  ho  po  with  his  story  about  wilnoss  f<'*s? 
A. — I  toUl  him  I  didn't  want  no  witn<'S8  fooj;  that  1  wasn't 
poing  over. 

Q. — Woll,  Mr.  llussol),  your  father  livos  ho;v  and  yon  have 
lived  hero  most  of  your  life?      A. — Yos,  sir. 

Q. — Yon  are  well  known?  A. — 1  used  to  be,  but  I  don't 
think  1  nm  noi^ 

Q. — Your  father  was  a  resident  of  this  city  for  many  years? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  his  family  has  all  lived  here?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty — That  \h 
r.ot  necessary. 

Mr.  Bodwell: — Tlie  style  of  my  friend's  ei-nsscsamination 
might  lead  to  confusion.  Your  Honours  do  not  know  tins 
man  as  well  as  I  do. 

(To  witness.)  Q. — How  did  you  come  over  here,  Mr.  Rus- 
sell; what  brought  _>ou  here?  A. — A  telegram  from  Mr. 
Munsie. 

Q. — You  pot  that  on  Satnrdny?  A.— I  got  it  Saturday 
night. 

Q. — IMd  Mr.  Iiowland  tell  yon  who  he  was'?  A. — Not  un 
til  I  asked  him. 

Q. — Who  did  he  tell  you  he  was?  A. — I  asked  him  if  lie 
was  on  the  side  of  the  TTnite'<l  States  or  on  the  Canadian  side 
and  he  told  me  he  was  for  the  United  States.  I  told  him 
I  didn't  think  I  would  be  justifled  in  telling  him  anything. 

Re-cross  examination  by  Mr.  Dickinson: 

Q. — Do  you  know  Todd's  place  in  Seattle?  A. — Ulack 
smith's  shop? 

Q. — Boiler  works?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Do  you  know  Mr.  Todd?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  know  when  Mr.  Cotsford  was  over  here  last 
week?      A. — I  knew  he  was  over  here. 

Q. — Since  that  have  you  been  in  Mr.  Todd's  place  and 
spoken  of  the  ci.se?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q.— Did  you  tell  Mr.  Todd  within  .the  last  week  that  Mr. 
Cotsford  was  foolish  or  a  fool  for  coming  over  here  and  could 
have  made  |5(M)  if  !•  •  had  not  come?  A. — No,  sir;  1  don't 
know  Mr.  Todd. 

Q. — Did  you  say  any  sucli  thing  to  anybody  in  T»tdd's  boiiei 
shop?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Have  you  been  in  there?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  say  that  to  any  one  in  Seattle?  A.— No,  sir; 
not  that  1  know  of. 

Q. — Did  not  say  that  Cotsford  was  a  fool  or  foolish  for 
coming  over  here?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — And  that  he  could  have  made  fSOO  if  he  had  not  come? 
A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Now,  Mr.  Russell,  your  family  have  been  here_,all  this 
60  time  while  you  have  been  in  Seattle?  A. — 1  have  a  family 
in  Seattle. 

Q. — Have  you  heard  from  Mr.  Munsie?  A. — 1  got  a  tele- 
gram from  him  Saturday  night. 

Q. — Hadn't  yon  heard  from  him  before?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Are  you  sure?  A. — There  was  a  man  over  there  that 
I  was  talking  to,  but  I  coudn't  say  whether  he  was  there  for 
Mr.  Munsie. 

Q.— What  was  his  name?      A.— I  don't  remember  his  name. 


40 


50 


Coi 

(l)uvid  HuHHt'll — KeeroHS.) 

Q.— He  was  for  Great  llrltaiu  iu  this  matter?  A.— I  be- 
lieve lie  was. 

().— llow  long  ago?  A.— J  think  it  was  Thursday  or  Fri- 
day. 

Q. — Well,  yon  have  not  concealed  your  address  or  where- 
abouts from  Mr.  Munsie  or  the  representatives  of  Great  Brit- 
ain, have  you,  at  any  time  since  you  have  been  in  Seattle? 
A.— No,  sir,  although  I  have  not  given  it  to  them. 

Q.— But  your  family  are  all  here?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q.— And  they  all  knew  where  you  were?  A.— No,  sir,  my 
family  didn't  know  where  I  was, 

Q.— Your  family  didn't  know  where  you  were?  A.— No. 
sir. 

Q. — Didn't  any  one  here  know  where  you  were?  A. — No, 
sir. 

Q- — How  did  Mr.  .Munsie  know  where  to  telegraph  you? 
.\. — Mr.  Munsiu.  I  expect,  kn^^w  where  I  was. 
20       Q.— All  the  time,  did  ho  not?      A.— Possibly;  yes,  sTr. 

Q.— How  did  he  know  it?  A.— Proliably  for  the  last  six 
years. 

Q.— Knew  where  to  find  you?  A.— Y<'s,  sir;  knew  where 
I  was  working. 

Q. — Has  he  ever  been  over  to  see  you?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — How  has  he  known  this  so  well?  A. — Because  he 
had  my  address. 

Q. — When  did  he  get  it?      A. — 1  don't  know. 

Q. — When  did  you  send  it  to  him?      A. — I  never  sent  it  to 
30  him. 

Q. — How  do  you  know  he  had  your  address?  A. — I  sup- 
pose he  got  it  from  the  directory,  if  he  wanted  it. 

Q. — You  say  that  he  has  known  for  the  last  six  years 
where  you  were,  but  your  family  did  not.  What  do  you 
mean  by  that;  that  you  did  not  let  your  family  know  where 
you  were?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — But  you  did  let  Mr.  Munsie  know?  A. — No,  sir,  they 
probably  got  it  the  same  way  as  he  got  it  if  they  know  it. 

il. — What  makes  you  think  (hat  Mr.  Munsie  knew  it  all  the 
'^°  while?       A. — t)n  account  of  sending  over  for  me  when  he 
did. 

Q. — What  did  you  mean  when  you  said  he  had  known  it 
for  the  last  six  years?  A. — Because  I  was  there  for  the  last 
six  years. 

(J. — You  sjiid  he  knew  all  the  time  where  you  w  re?  A. — 
I  supjKWt'  that  he  would  know  where  I  was;  he  knew  that 
I  was  over  there. 

Q. — How  did  he  know  lliat,  Russell,  come,  let  us  have  it? 
,Q  A. — I  believe  I  was  here  about  five  or  six  years  ago  and  I 
'     may  have  given  him  mv  addr«»8s  then;  told  him  I  was  in  Se- 
attle. 

Q. — Have  ycm  been  here  since  the  five  or  six  years?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — When?      A. — 1  was  here  a  couple  of  years  ago. 

Q. — Did  you  see  Muiisie?  A. — No.  sir.  I  don't  reniemlnM' 
of  seeing  him. 

Q. — Did  you  not  see  him?      A. —  I  can't  be  positive  of  it. 

Q. — Have  you  been  here  since  the  1  wo  rears?      A. — I  didn't 
'°  stay  here  very  long,  though. 

(i. — When  were  y(»u  here?  A. — 1  came  here  on  the  "Ro- 
.salie." 

Q. — The  regular  daily  boat?      A. — Working  on  her. 
Q. — You  came  in  lu're.  did  you  not?      A. — Yes.  sir. 
Q. — And  you  come  in  here  every  day.  do  yoti  not?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

{}. — Now?    A. — I  am  not  cm  her  now. 


1               .,;.           ,    ;    |t 

•          '      ^  ^ii 

'ii- 

i  i. 
.Mi! 

^m:  i 

lO 


602 


(Dnvid  RiiHHt'll — KenoHH.       W, 


I>.   n.vciH— Direct.) 

-I  li;iv»Mi'l  iH'cn  on  hi-r 


20 


(i. — WIh'H  (lid  you  It'iuc  licr?      A 
for  probabl,^  two  years  niul  a  lialf. 

(J. — Within  the  two  years,  have  you  not  been  hen-  exeejit 
iXH  you  came  on  tlie  "KoHalie?"  \. — I  was  over  lie.-e  tlie 
other  day  on  the  "KinjfHton."  but  1  didn't  come  aHh«U'e.  I 
waH  working  on  lier. 

Q. — IIow  lonjj  affo  was  tliat?  A. — That  was  Wednemhiy. 
I  thinlv.  of  hiHt  w«'ek. 

Q. — YoH  did  not  rejMirt  to  MunHie?  A. — No,  air,  I  made  a 
trip  on  her  and  went  rif;lit  back  on  lier. 

ii, — Did  you  ever  liave  a  talk  witli  Munsie  about  thiH  case? 
A. — No,  sir. 

Q.— Or  Hechtel?       A.— No,  Kir. 

Q. — Or  anyone  reju-eHentinji  lln'm?  .\. — Only  when  I 
came  over  here  I  went  up  to  Mr.  HodweH's. 

Q. — But  the  couuHel  did  not  teh-^rapti  you  and  Munsie 
did?    A. — Munsie  tele|;raphed  me. 

Testimony  of  Mr.  Russell  closed. 


It' 


40 


William  Douglas  Hyers,  a  witness  duly  sworn,  was  n-called 
on  the  part  of  (Ireat  Itritain. 

30       Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Petei^. 

Q. — Mr.  Byers,  you  have  already  stated  yoiir  experience  as 
a  8t>al  hunter  and  I  will  not  go  over  that.  In  uhooting  seals, 
will  you  tell  me  how  are  tlie  majority  of  tlu'm  shot,  sleej)in}{ 
or  swimming?      A. — Sleeping. 

Q. — A  large  majority  of  them  or  not?  A. — Yes,  sir,  a  very 
large  majority  of  them  are  sliot  sh'cping. 

Q. — In  the  course  of  yoni-  exjierience,  luive  you  shot  a  largo 
number  of  seals?  A. — For  three  years  I  was  a  hunter.  I 
have  shot  a  large  number. 

Q. — Is  it  a  fact  that  a  certain  ]M)rtion  of  the  seals  killed 
are  lost  by  sinking?      A. — There  is  a  certain  numlier. 

Q. — From  your  own  experience,  can  you  tell  us  wliat  pro- 
portion of  seals  that  are  shot  dead  are  lost?  A. — From  my 
own  experienc!\  and  from  the  e.\perien<e  of  hunters  I  have 
had  with  me,  I  think  about  ,T  per  cent. 

Q. — With  regard  to  sleejung  seals?  A. — Yon  mean  lost 
or  sunk? 

Q. — Yes,  sir?  A. — Five  ikm*  cent,  of  the  total  amount 
killed  sink. 

Q. — A  greater  nimiber  are  lost  when  swimming?  A. — 
The  greatest  number  lost  are  lost  swimming. 

Q. — With  regard  to  those  asletp,  what  ju'oportion  are  lost? 
A. — A  very  small  p<'rcentage. 

Q. — About  what?      A. — I'roltably  two  jhm-  cent.,  not  more. 

Q. — What  distance  do  you  shoot  them  at  when  asleep? 
A. — From  ten  to  fifteen  yards. 

Q. — Now,  there  is  scnne  question  here  as  to  seals  being 
able  to  scent  a  long  way  off,  is  that  th«'  case?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  is  tliat  a  practical  difiiculty,  and  how  do  you  over 
come  it?  A. — W^e  overcome  ir  by  keeping  to  tlie  leeward  tif 
them  all  the  time. 

Q. — Is  there  any  dilBculty  in  doing  that?  A. — Yes,  quite 
a  difficulty. 

Q. — But  you  overcome  it  in  tliat  way?  \. — Oh.  yes,  we 
can  overcome  it. 

Q. — Do  you  fail  to  get  many  shots  on  account  of  their 
smelling  you?      A. — It  don't  often  happen,  except  in  a  sud- 


50 


60 


20 


6o3 
(\V.   I>.   n.vtMH— IHrcct— rioHH.       W.   E.    Hiik«'i— IMrect.) 

*U>n  chaiiK*'  in  tlx^  wind;  a  Hiiddcn  <>li)inp'  of  wind  uin.v  pnt 
\*m  out,  at  i  w<'  may  find  ourwivcH  to  tli<>  leoward  and  Htill 
bn  to  tlH*  windward  wltii  a  Hiiddcn  clianRo  of  tlic  wind. 

Q. — Tliat  hapitons  in  all  kinds  of  hunting?  A. — Not  only 
Hcala,  but  everything  else. 

(J. — Are  the  seals  f-asy  to  awaken?  A. — Well,  yes;  yo;i 
have  to  take  a  great  deal  of  ])reeautiou  in  getting  at  them. 

Q. — When  are  you  going  away,  Captain?  A. — 1  am  going 
(iway  on  Monday. 

Q. — On  a  scaling  voyage?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

('rosR-examination  by  Mr.  Uickinson: 

Q. — If  you  do  not  take  a  great  deal  of  precaution  the  seals 
awaken,  do  they  not?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  is  the  result  if  they  do  awaken?  A. — The  re- 
sult is  they  go  away  and  you  do  not  get  a  shot  at  them.  In 
some  cases  you  do  if  you  are  close  enough. 

Q. — So  that  any  distiirl)ance  whicli  awakens  them  lesnens 
the  chances  of  your  getting  the  seals  even  if  they  are  there, 
docs  it  not?     .\. — If  tliey  are  awakened  the  chan<"e  is  small 

Q. — In  order  to  get  a  quantity  of  seals  when  they  are  there 
you  want  to  take  the  seals  asleep,  do  you  not?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

Re-direct  examination  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q. — With  regard  to  the  (juantity  of  ammunition  you  re- 
<piire.       Suppose  a  seal  is  wounded.       You  oft«'n  wound  a 
seal?      A. — Yes,  sir. 
30       Q. — And  chase  it?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Does  that  cause  the  use  of  much  ammunition?  A. — 
Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Give  us  an  idea  of  how  nnu'li  yon  fire  at  one  seal  ix- 
fore  you  get  him?  A. — I  have  known  hunters  to  shoot  25 
shots  at  one  seal  after  he  is  wounded. 

Q. — It  is  quite  common  to  fire  several  sliots?  A. — It  is 
quite  common  t.>  tire  peven  or  eight  shots. 

Q.— And  to  chase  tliem  a  long  distance?       A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — You  do  not  give  them  ui»  until  you  get  them?      A. — 
40  No.  sir;  ammunition  is  no  object  at  all. 

Q. — When  you  come  down  to  a  supply  of  ammunition  you 
must  allow  for  a  great  number  of  charges  to  be  used  in  that 
way?      A. — Yes(,  sir. 

The  Commissioners  then  rose. 


■^ 

^ 

1  ' 
■\  ■ 

1;  ■  I- 


hi 
I'; 


^^  Oommissioners  under  the  Oouvention  of  February  8,  1896,  between 
Qreat  Britain  and  the  United  States  of  Americr 

Chambers  of  the  Legislative  Acb'  1  jMy, 

At  Victoria,  December  17,  1896. 

At  10.no  a.m.  the  Commissioners  took  their  seats. 

Wentworth  E.  Haker  was  called  as  a  witness  on  the  part 
of  (Sreat  IJntain,  and,  being  duly  sworn,  was  examined,  by 
C^   consent  of  counsel,  out  of  order,  with  refer«'nce  to  claims  to 
l)e  hereatfer  taken  up. 

The  witness  was  examined  in  the  "Carolena"  case  in  re- 
buttal by  Mr.  Peters  as  follows: 

Q._Oapt.  Paker,  in  1890  you  were  master  of  the  "Viva." 
Did  vou  meet  (;apt.  Miner  that  year?      A.— Yes.  sir. 

Q.— In  what  ship  was  C^apt,  Miner  tlien?  A.— The  "Allie 
1.  Alger." 


lO 


?0 


(\V.  K.  I»iik«'r  -IHnct.       \V.  T.  Hiiinj?— IHi-fct.* 

Q. — ('apt.  Miiwr  Htiitcd  thiit  lit-  hiid  n\\vn  voii  a  rfiliiin 
quantity  of  proviHionH  and  stori-H  during  tlw  rourm'  of  tlit> 
voyage.  I  9im|)l,y  want  von  to  toll  tlic  Coupt  what  he  did 
actually  givp  you,  so  far  uh  you  n'mcnibcr?  A. — H**  jjavo 
nn»  Bonip  thinffs  in  oxcliaiiKc  for  other  thinpn  I  had— ii  can 
of  powder,  for  one  tiling. 

Q. — A  '25pound  kcp,  do  yoti  mean?      A. — Yen,  sir. 

Q. — Anything;  elHc  but  powder?  A.— I  <'an't  remember, 
I  think  there  whh  some  snutll  IteniH.  I  ean't  remember  what 
it  was. 

Q. — And  in  .'xelmnKe  for  that  you  g»\e  him  HcmietliinR,  I 
presume?      A.— Yes.  Hir. 

Q. — What?      A. — I  Rave  him  Home  roal. 

Q. — A  large  quantity?    A. — No.  sir. 

Q. — About  what  quantity?      A.— 1  think  it  was  five  saekH. 

Q. — So  that  the  whole  tranHaetion  wan  a  very  small  one? 
A. — A  very  small  one. 

liaughlan  McLean  wan  <-alled  as  a  witneHs  on  the  part  of 
Oreat  Britain,  and,  being  duly  sworn,  was  examined,  by  eon- 
sent  of  counsel,  out  of  order  with  reference  to  claims  to  be 
hereafter  taken  up. 

Captain  Wm.  Cox,  called  as  a  witness  on  the  part  of  Oreat 
Britain,  and  being  duly  sworn,  was  examined  out  of  order 
with  reference  to  claims  to  be  liereafter  taken  up. 

The  Commissioners  then  rose. 


30 


40 


OoauniBsloners  under  the  OonventioD.  of  February  8,  1896,  between 
Oreat  Britain  and  the  United  States  of  America- 

Ohamben  of  the  Legislative  Assembly, 

At  Victoria,  December  18, 1896 

At  10..10  a.m.  the  Commissioners  took  their  seats. 


ili'ii 


III 


Examination  of  William  Cox  continued  by  Mr.  I'elers. 

Charles  A.  Lundbei-g  vas  called  as  a  witness  on  tlie  part 
of  Great  Britain,  and,  b«ing  duly  sworn,  was  examined  by 
consent  of  counsel  out  of  o,  der  with  ref«'rence  to  claims  whicli 
50    are  to  be  taken  up  hereafter. 

William  Thomas  Bvagg  was  called  as  a  witness  on  tlie  part 
of  Great  Britain,  and,  being  duly  sworn,  was  examined  by 
consent  of  counsel  out  of  ord«'r  with  refi'renec  to  daiiiiH 
which  are  to  be  taken  up  her(>after. 

The  following  part  of  the  evidence  of  tlie  witness  was  de- 
clared to  be  ai)plicablf  to  the  "Carolena"  case: 


60 


Examination  by  Mr.  Peters: 


A.— I 


Q. — For  how  many  years  did  you  net  as  hunter? 
have  acted  for  eight  year.s  as  hunter. 

Q. — On  the  coast  of  Behring  Hea  and  in  other  places,  1  lie- 
lieve?      A. — Y'cs,  sir;  everywhere. 

Q. — And  during  that  time  you  had  considerable  exp«'rience. 
I  presume,  in  shooting  seals?  A. — 1  had.  Tliere  was  one 
year  that  I  was  mate  and  hunter,  and  F  did  not  include  that 
when  T  answered  your  qenstion. 


10 


20 


30 


40 


(W.  T.  ItiiiKK— l»in'<l— (  niHH.      (.".  N.  Cox— lUirrt.) 

(i.— Ill  IHWt?  A.— Yi'h;  for  cimht  vciiih  I  whh  u  HiniiKlit 
liuutcr. 

(j. — And  (liiriuK  tluit  tiiiit*  yon  mIioI  a  verv  coiiHiderable 
nunibfr  of  hcuIk?       A. — I  killed  lliouHaiidN. 

Q. — llow  an*  the  majority  of  the  m-alH  nliot?  Ar«'  llu-y 
)ihU'('|>  or  ar»'  tlw.v  riinninp:?      A. — Bh'cpin^  wals. 

Q. — It  Ih  a  fact  that  hoiiu-  HcalH  ar(>  kmt,  I  bcliev**,  h,v  Hiiik- 
in^  after  they  are  Hhot?      A. — It  Ih. 

il — From  your  own  exiMM-ience,  and  referring  to  nothing 
hut  your  own  ex|terience.  can  you  jjive  uh  an  idea  of  wluit 
|iri>|)ortion  of  wuIh  that  are  shot  are  aetually  loHt?  A. — Do 
you  mean  Hhot  by  myself? 

Q. — I  nin  now  referring  to  your  own  exp«'rience,  and  noth- 
ing elw.  A. — Aboui  four  per  cent.,  sir;  not  more  than  flvo 
jier  cent.;  that  is,  sealw  that  actually  ulnk. 

(.1 — Do  you  mean  to  nay  that  If  you  actually  killed  by  sboot- 
ing  a  hundred  .seals  about  five  per  cent,  are  lost  by  sinking? 
.\. — Five  are  lost  by  sinking. 

Q. — And  no  more?  A. — I  do  not  think  so  from  my  expe- 
rience. 

Q. — Does  that  loss  occur  in  the  case  of  shooting  seals  that 
are  asleep,  or  in  the  case  of  shooting  seals  that  are  swim- 
ming?     A. — In  both. 

Q. — Which  is  the  largest  number  of  thom,  I  mean  that  are 
lost?      A. — Reals  that  are  travelling. 

Q. — Your  answer  is  that  about  five  per  cent,  covers  the 
whole  loss,  including  both  slet-ping  seals  and  travelling  seals? 
A.— Yes. 

Cross-examnatiim  by  Mr.  Warri'n. 

Q. — Mr.  Hragg,  I  Hup]t(»se  you  mean  by  that  the  seals  that 
are  actually  killed  and  that  to  your  knowledge  were  killed? 
.\. — I  mean  that  were  killed  dead  and  sunk. 

Q. — That  does  not  include  those  that  were  shot  at  and 
woundeil  and  got  away?      A. — No,  it  doesn't. 

i}. — You  did  not  include  that  numlH'r  when  you  gave  your 
(M-rcentage?      A. — I  did  not. 

<}. — There  are  m.'iny  of  them  that  are  wounded  and  get 
away?       .\. — There  is  considerable. 

ii. — And  all  you  mean  to  say  is,  that  of  the  number  of  the 
seals  that  are  actually  killed  four  or  five  per  cent,  of  them 
Hiiik?      A. — Yes,  sir,  sink. 


,ir.K 


60 


riarence  Nelstm  Cox  was  called  as  a  witness  on  the  part  of 
<ireat  Hritain,  and  duly  sworn. 

The  CommisBi(mer  (m  the  part  of  the  Cnited  States: — 
What  is  this  «>vidence  taken  for,  Mr.  Peters? 

Mr.  Peters:— This  is  on  the  catch  in  IH!»0. 

Direct  examination  by  Mr.  ?'eters. 

<i. — You  live  in  Victoria?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

ii. — And  you  have  lived  here  for  nmny  years?  A. — Since 
tile  winter  of  1H88. 

<i. — You  have  been  engage<l  in  seal  fishing?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i. — For  how  many  years?  A. — lH8i)  was  my  first  year 
scaling,  and  I  have  In-en  here  ever  since. 

Q. — AVhat  ship  did  you  fish  in  in  1H80?  A. — I  was  mate  on 
llie  schooner  "Sapphire"  in  the  early  part  of  the  scascin  I  was 
<M!  the  "Annie  C.  Moore," 


f 


6o6 


;  i   1 ! 

■'I; 


!>' 


li'ii'-i 


lO 


20 


30 


(C.  N.  Cox— Uiieet— (JroHH.) 

Q. — Wf  Lave  already  got  tlu.'  cattli  of  tlio  "Kapphire"  fioiu 

A. — Yes. 
A. — I  wan  luaHter  of  tlic 


Do  y«m  r«'iiu'iuber?      A. — 


40 


Go 


your  brother  who  was  eaptaiu? 

(). — lu  what  veHsel  were  you? 
sehoouer  "Triumph." 

Q. — What  touuage  was  she? 
Niuety-efjht  tons. 

il. — What  boats  did  she  carry  and  what  crew?      A. — Slie 
had  a  white  crew  and  six  seaiiug  boat,  and  tlie  stern  boat. 
Q. — You  went  into  Hehrin);  Sea  that  year?      A. — Yi's,  sir. 
Q. — Did  you  keep  a  book  sliowinjr  the  number  of  seals  you 
caught  in  l?ehrin>;  S<>a?      A. — I  did,  sir. 

Q. — Did  vou  make  the  entries  in  that  book  from  dav  to 
day?      A.— I  did,  sir. 

(i. — Is  there  a  column  in  that  l)ook  showing;  tlu'  days  and 
a  cobimn  showing;  the  number  of  seals  each  day?  A. — Yes, 
sir.  they  would  be  all  together,  the  days,  and  the  number  of 
seals  taken  that  day  in  the  column  opjMtsit*'  the  dates. 

Q. — And  those  two  columns  were  put  down  from  day  to 
day?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — 1  want  you  to  1<m>^  at  your  book  and  read  off  to  me  tin- 
day,  the  month  and  the  numlMT  of  seals  yoti  caught  durinjr 
the  months  of  .lulv  and  August.  1S!»0?  A.— On  Julv  !»,  1 
seal;  -lulv  12,  1  seal;  ir.th,  .14;  Kith,  1;  IHth,  «;  tltth,  27';  2t»tli. 
(i4;  21st.'  24;  22nd.  1;  2.'?rd.  1;  24th.  n.i;  2r.th.  S7;  2(ith,  4.-; 
2!>th.  IS;  that  was  all  in  July.  Au)j;ust  1st.  1;  2nd.  in;  ;5nl. 
22;  4th.  1 ;  (5th.  1 ;  Ttli,  4;  0th,  1 ;  inth.  06  or  fi7;  lltli,  52;  12tli. 
2;  ir.th.  1 ;  Kith.  7;  10th.  2;  that  was  all. 

Q.— (Jive  me  the  total?      A.— 47.1  f<u-  Rehriiif,'  Sea. 
Q. — You  sealed  for  the  last  day  on  the  10th?      A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q.— Then  you  left?       A.— Yes.  sir. 

Q. — What  did  you  leav<>  for?  A. — The  weather  wasn't 
very  pood  and  seals  were  scarce. 

Q. — Where  were  you  sealinft  when  you  left?  \. — I  was 
down  to  the  southward  of  the  Islands. 

Q. — Will  you  be  kind  enoujjh  to  tell  me  how  far  about  — 
I  am  referring  to  th«'  Pribyloff  Islands?  A. — Yes,  sir.  about 
00  miles,  I  t;  ink.  from  the  Islands. 

Q.— To  the  southward  of  the  Pribyloflf  Islauds?  A.— Yes, 
sir. 

Q. — (live  me  the  latitude  and  lonnittuh"  of  your  last  day'-t 
Ashing?  A. — The  last  day's  fishing  I  have  here  was  not  tak- 
en there. 

(>.— Where  was  the  last  diiy's  fishing?  A. — ifore  to  the 
southward  and  westward;  it  would  be  about  longitude  170.57 
iind  latitude  HO. 

Q. — And  that  was  how  far  to  the  southward  and  westward 
of  the  Islands?       .\.— That  would  be  SO  miles. 

Q. — Then  <mi  account  of  the  wcatlier  being  bad  and  si-als 
not  being  very  ]>lentiful,  you  left  the  sea?       A. — I  left  the 
sea. 
Q.— Tn  1S8S  did  you  flsh?    A.— No,  sir.  I  wasn't  scaling. 

Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Dickiiiscui. 

{). —  Did  you  make  a  custom  house  n-jtort?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

ti. — And  reportid  the  numln'r  of  your  catch  in  writing? 
A  — Yes.  sir. 

<}. — Did  you  distinguish  the  Itehring  Sea  catch  from  the 
coast  catch?  A. —  1  was  dismasted  and  came  in  here,  if  I  re 
member  liglil.  on  the  1st  of  February,  and  then  I  made  a  re 
port  of  how  nuiny  seals  I  had.  I  had  about  50  or  52.  and 
when  I  returned  in  the  fall  I  am  not  sure  whether  I  piiT  in  the 
rest  of  the  coast  catch  or  not. 

(2.— In  your  report  to  the  custom  1umis<'  did  you  distinguish 
tln>  coast  catch  from  the  Hehring  Sea  catch?  A. — Oh.  yes. 
sir. 


6o7 


(('.  N.  Cox — CnmH — Ite-diin-J.) 

y. — The  mtper  (Oiist  ciitcli  iind  the  Itfliriug  Sea?  A. — 
That  I  ciiirt  Hijy  for  niirc. 

Q. — What  is  your  Im'rj  iiu-iuorv  as  to  distiuguisliin);  the 
iipiMT  coast  catch?  A. — I  am  uuder  the  iinpressiou  that  I 
(lid. 

{}. — Will  .voj  U'll  us  again,  Captain,  what  time  you  left  tlie 
sea  in  1HH9?  A. — In  ISH!)  I  came  out  through  the  pass,  I 
,0  tliinli,  the  4th  day  of  Aujijust. 

Q.— And  ISMDV'  A.— I  thinli  it  would  be  about  the  20th 
or  21st  of  August. 

Kedirect  examination  by  Mr.  Peters: 

(i. — And  whatever  report  you  made,  t'aptiiin,  to  the  custom 
iiouse  would  be  in  writing?  A. — Yes,  sir. 

ii. — And  when  you  were  entering?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  tliat  is  tliere  to  be  found  whatever  it  was?      A. — 
Yes,  sir. 
-°       (i. — In  the  year  ISOO,  Captain  Cox.  you  were  on  the  south- 
ern coast?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i. — Tliat  would  be  front  Ca[»e  Flattery  on  the  north?  A. — 
"S'es,  sir. 

(.}. — And  San  Francisco  on  the  .soutli?  A. — After  going 
on  my  southern  trip,  after  being  in  Yidoria  disnmsted,  I 
dii'.u't  go  above  Columltia  river. 

Q.— That  would  be  further  soulh  than  Cape  Flattery?  A. 
— Yes.  sir;  much  further  south  than  Cape  Flattery. 

Q. — I  want  you  to  look  at  your  book  and  tell  me,  in  the 

^'^   first  place,  between  the  21st  day  of  March,  1S90,  up  to  the 

fifth  da.v  of  Ajtiil.  how  many  days  you  sealed  and  what  you 

ca\ight  rhiY  bv  dav?      A. — On  March  28th  I  got  56  seals,  on 

the  2!)tli  11,  .i(>th';i,  April  .^th  2(5. 

Q.— What  is  vour  next  date?      A.— April  fith. 

Q.— And  tlu"  next  after  that?      .\.— The  7th. 

Q.— Tlow  many?  A.— I  only  got  three  one  day  and  two 
the  next. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States:— What 
40   is  the  total  for  the  ten  days? 

Witness:— I  tielieve  101  in  the  ten  days  specified. 

Q.— You  hunt  on  Sundays  as  well  as  other  days?  A.— 
There  is  no  Sundays  sealing. 

Q. — Will  you  be  Uind  enough  to  tell  me  about  that  place 
you  were  hutning  at  tliat  time,  tliat  is,  in  regard  to  Cape 
Flattery?  A.— In  the  vicinity  of  Cape  Flattery.  I  couldn't 
say  from  memory  just  where  I  was. 

(i. — .\nd  how  far  apart  are  Cape  Flattery  and  Neuh  Hay? 
'      .\.— .Vbout  12  miles. 

Q. —  >I.iw  far  is  the  ;5<'aling  gn.iind  from  Neah  Hay?  A. — 
Wcli.  we  sealed  any  place  frci  1  :!"»  miles  to  40  miles  oil'  Cape 
Flattery. 

ti. — So  that  a  vessel  at  Xeah  Hay  would  be  within  that  dis- 
tance of  the  sealing  grounds?  A. — ;?.")  or  40  miles,  1  should 
say. 

(i.— You  did  not  see  the  "I'atl.flnder?"      A.— Not  that   I 
rcnu'mber. 
(,o       (i.— .\nd  you  knew  nothing  about  her  being  seized?      A.— 
\o,  1  knew'uolliing  whatever  of  the  "Failitlnder." 

(^._Ih  that  I'.msidered  poor  w  good  ground?  .\.— It  has 
been  considered  very  gotxl  sealing  grounds;  been  very  good 
catches  taken  tli<'r<'. 

li— Is  it  a  ground  much  fre()uented  by  sealers  at  that  time 
of  tin-  year?      A. — Yes,  sir.  every  year. 

(j._ir„i.  iiisttince.  in  your  trips  on  the  coast  you  have  ul- 
wavs  tished  on  that  ground?      A.— Evor^-  year,  sir. 


i 


•  ;,.  H 


'ljMt,n| 


I    '' 


10 


20 


S'^ 


40 


50 


rx) 


(C.  \.  Co\ — i'roHH.) 

Q. — Is  that  tilt  oasi.'  with  most  all  the  sealers?  A. — Gen- 
erally a  great  uiimber  of  sealers  there  every  year. 

Cross-exaiuiuatioii  resumed  by  Mr.  Warreu: 

Q. — In  18yt)  ou  the  eoast,  t^aptain,  yon  caught  101  seals  in 
ten  days?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q.— That  would  be  about  ;{(tO  a  month?  A.— Yon  ean't 
really  figure  that  way.  Probably  at  times  we  would  get 
four  or  five  regular  Imntiug  days,  and  thert^  may  be  again  u 
week  when  our  boats  wouldn't  be  out;  there  is  no  way  of 
striking  an  average. 

ti. — You  do  not  think  that  because  you  take  seals  in  one 
part  of  the  mouth  that  that  is  any  indication  that  you  would 
take  them  in  another  part  of  the  month?  A. — A  great  deal 
de|»ends  on  the  weal  her. 

Q.— And  there  is  a  great  deal  of  luck  in  it?  A.— There  is 
a  certain  amount  of  luck. 

Q.— And  there  is  a  chance  of  finding  when'  tlie  seals  ore 
and  getting  them?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q.— And  a  great  deal  depends  on  your  skill  in  getting  your 
men  out  and  managing  them  and  controlling  them?  A.— 
Oh.  u  little. 

Q.— A  great  deal?      A.— Oh.  T  don't  know. 
Q.— Is  \t  not  !>  fact.  Captain,  that  a  man's  skill  as  a  captain 
and  his  rei»utation  depend  on  the  success  he  has  in  handling 
his  crew  of  hunters  and  seamen?      A.— Oh,  yes,  to  a  certain 
extent  it  does. 

Q. — And  bv  handling  his  crew  with  success  you  mean  man- 
aging them    .0  that  they  can  get  the  best  results?    A. — Yes. 
Q. — And  there  is  such  a  thing  as  the  best  results  in  seal- 
ing?     A. — Oh,  the  catches  vary  a  good  deal. 

Q. — In  this  year,  181(0,  Captain,  you  appear  to  have  done 
about  as  v.'ell  on  the  coast  as  you  did  in  the  sea?  A. — I  done 
better. 

Q. — Jus:  tell  the  Commissioners — you  have  had  consider 
able  exiM  Hence  in  sealing — when  you  are  out  sealing  how 
many  seals  are  there  in  a  Ixinch  that  hunters  go  after  ordi- 
nari'y;  how  do  they  travel?  A. — Oh,  we  low»'r  very  often 
and  we  don't  see  seals  at  all.  When  the  day  is  tine  enough 
to  put  our  boats  out  we  lowe^  whether  we  see  seals  or  not, 
when  we  consider  that  w<'  ar    on  tlu'  ground  for  seals. 

Q. — There  are  no  exact  po^^ftions  on  the  chart  where  you 
would  go  and  ancluir  your  boats?  A. — There  are  a  lot  of 
pot'itions  that  )  would  like  (o  anchor  at. 

Q. — Hut  near  the  islands?  A. — No.  sir;  in»t  particularly 
the  islands. 

Q. — There  is  no  such  thing  as  seeing  a  large  number  of 
seals  and  lowering  the  boats  and  starting  after  them  and 
killing  them,  is  there?  A. — I  have  seen  that  once. 

Q.— How  nniuy  did  they  get  out  of  that  lar^'e  body  of  seals 
in  that  way?  A. — I  couldn't  say;  I  was'i't  master  of  the 
vessel,  and  therefore'  I  couldn't  say. 

Q._Was  it  ou  the  "Sai>|)hire"  in  I.SSO? 
was  on  the  ".\nuie  C.  Moore"  in  ISHO. 
Q.— Whereabouts?       A.— Down  olT  Columbia  River. 
Q.— Not  tip  iu  Mehring  Sea?       A.  -  No,  sir. 
(J. — Yoti  never  saw  in  Hehring  Sea  any  nnch  occurrence  n« 
that?      .\. — I've  seen  (piite  a  number  of  seals  from  the  ves- 
sel, but  I  don't  know  as  we  ever  lowered  expressly  for  that 
purpose. 

Q.— You  don't  want  to  be  understiMid  as  testifying  that 
boats  go  out  into  a  large  herd  of  seals  and  catch  tliem  right 
and  left?      .\. — Xo.  sir. 

Q.— The.v  tak"  them  uj.  s.'paralely?  .\.— Yes.  <uu'  and 
two  together— three, 


A. — No.  sir;  it 


20 


6og 

(C.  N.  Cox— Ke  cross.) 

Q. — The  cuiioes  oi"  boats,  which  ever  you  may  be  using. 
Whi»;h  you  use?    A. — I  have  had  canoes  since  1892. 

Q. — They  cii-ciihiti!  about  the  boat,  and  when  they  find  a 
seal  sh'epiiifj  .travelliug  or  breeching,  whatever  he  may  be 
doing,  they  kill  him?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Then  they  go  searching  for  another?  A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q. — It  is  a  fact,  is  it  not,  that  when  there  are  a  large  num- 
lo  her  of  seals  travelling  together,  they  have  seals  on  the  edge 
of  the  herd  that  keep  an  outlo<»k,  and  it  is  very  hard  to  ap- 
proach them?  A. — Yes,  wlien  they  are  sleeping,  a  large  num- 
ber together,  they  are  much  more  difficult  to  get  than  if  sleep- 
ing singly. 

Q. — Then  it  is  a  fact  that  if  tliey  are  more  abundant  in  the 
neighborhood  of  the  vessel  it  is  hai-der  to  get  them?  A. — 
I  don't  think  so. 

Q. — Where  there  is  a  large  bunch  of  seals  asleep  they  al- 
ways have  outlookers?  A. — There  is  generally  one  or  two 
awake. 

Q. — They  make  a  noise  and  the  otlu'rs  are  aroused?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  veav  did  vou  take  white  men  aboard  of  the  boat, 
C^U>tiiin?      A.— In  isi)0  and  1891. 

Q. — How  many  white  men  were  aboard  voiir  boat  in  1S90? 
.\.— 2;^  altogether. 
Q.— Did  you  outfit  your  boat?      A.— I  did. 
Q. — Make  out  the  bills  for  all  the  supplies?  A. — I  made  out 
all  the  lists  for  the  supplies. 
30      Q.— O.K.'d  the  bils  liefore  they  were  paid?      .\. — I  did. 
Q. — Paid  them  yourself?      A. — No,  sir. 
Q.— Who  owned  the  boat?      A.— E.  B.  Marvin  &  Co. 
Q. — Was  your  brother  a  member  of  th<>  firm  at  that  tinu'? 
\. — I  don't  think  he  was  a  member  of  the  firm,  but  he  was 
an  owner  in  the  vessel. 

Q._That  was  the  "Triumjyh?"       A.— Yes,  sir. 
Q.— You  gave  the  tonnage  of  the  "Trium]»h"  as  98?    A.— 
Yes,  sir. 
Q. — Was  she  not  100?      .\    -Tliat   was  llio  gross  tonnage. 
4^   the  net  tonnage  was  98. 

Q. — On  what  basis  do  \oii  esliniale  t)i.  cost  of  boarding 
the  men  on  a  scaling  v(>ssel?  A. — Will,  1  think  about  iifll 
a  month. 

Q. — For  white  men?       A. — Yes,  ^ir. 
Q. — That  is  in  Vicloriii.  of  co\irse?  A.— Yes,  sir. 
Q.— Indians  are  boariled  cheajier  than  white  men,  arr  they 
not,  (Captain?       A. — Well,  I  couldn't  say  as  to  this  .v<  :ir. 

Q.— What  ye.ir  are  you  speaking  of?      .\.— Right   \.ars  I 
liiul  while  hunters. 
5^^       Q. — Will  you  .inswer  my  (|U(sti(tn''      You  were  speakinii  of 
your  e.xperienc.'  year  by  year  handling  white  n>en?     .\. — Yon 
ask  nu'  the  cost  of  boarding  Indians? 

Q. — I  am  talking  about  your  answer  of  ^11  per  moitili. 
When  you  answered  that  (|nesti(nt  yon  were  speakint:  wiih 
reference  to  yonr  experience  on  the  "Trinniiiii"  in  IMMt.  as 
well  as  voiir  ex)>eriein'e  in  other  vessels?       A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q._Ii,'  1s,^!)  ,ii,l  yon  have  white  men?    .\.— I  was  im\le  that 
year.      We  had  Indians.       I  was  mate  of  tlw  "Sapi»hire." 
Q.— And  v<Hir  brother  was  captain?       A.— Yes,  sir. 
Q._\Vho  bought  th(>  suitplies  that  year  «n  the  "Sapphire?" 
A,— Well.  I  couldn't  reallv  stiy.  but   I  think  the  captain  or- 
dered the  supplies  and  O.K.'d  the  bills. 

Q_.\t  least  you  did  not?  A.— I  had  nothing  whatever  to 
do  with  it 

Q._\,,w  1  iisk  you  if  the  <'ost  of  boardiu'jr  Indians  i)er  In- 
dian was  not  less  than  the  cost  of  boarding  white  men?     A. 
-It  is. 
39 


'^^0 


m 


WW 


6io 


■l)|'l,.u 


I  ;< 


10 


20 


(V.  N.  Cox — Ki'-eroKS.) 

Q. — Now,  H|)!'ukin{i  generally,  btiscd  upon  your  experii'Ute, 
whut  i8  tlu'  coHt  |M-r  niontli  of  boarding  an  Indian?  A. — I 
think  about  |(i,  the  way  I  feed  my  Indians. 

Q. — About  ^(J  per  niontli  per  man?      A. — YeH.  sir. 

Q. — Tliat  is  running  tlirough  what  vears.  captain?  A. — 
'!»;{.  *!)4.  '»-»  and  '1W5. 

<J. — Before  \Hi)'.i  you  did  not  have  Indians?  A. — Not  as 
master. 

Q. — .\8  a  matter  of  general  knowledge  that  you  have  pick- 
ed up  around  ^'ictoria  since  you  liave  been  here,  do  you  not 
know  that  Indians  are  much  better  treated  aboard  the  vessel 
than  they  used  to  be?  A. — I  think  they  are  a  little;  I  am 
not  in  a  position  to  say  that;  it  would  be  hearsay. 

Q. — Hetter  fed,  are  they  not?  .\. — I  make  n<)  difference  in 
the  way  I  feed  them  now  from  what  I  did  then. 

Q. — After  you  got  back  from  your  sealing  trip  in  1890  did 
you  have  any  su])plies  left?      A. — I  had  some.  yes. 

The  ('onimissioner  on  the  part  of  the  T'nited  States: — We 
have  said  several  times  that  you  cannot  go  into  specific  voy- 
ages. It  was  ruled  out  on  your  objection.  On  cross-exandn- 
ation  they  can  go  into  specific  vessels. 

CroBS-examination  continued  by  Mr.  Dickinson: 

Q. — I  have  just  had  an  opportunity  of  <>xamining  your  book. 
An- these  two  pages,  i;{2  and  1X\,  from  which  you  have  testi- 
fied today?  A. — Yes,  sir. 
^o       Q. — And  will  vou  please  t«'ll  me  what  year  page  i;{2  refers 
to?       A.— 18JK».  ■ 

Q. — That  year  is  not  anywhere  on  the  page,  is  it?  .\. — No, 
sir. 

(i. — And  what  does  page  13.*?  rei>n'sent?  A. — The  same 
year. 

Q. — IMd  you  commence  page  1.S.1  before  you  commenced 
page  i;{2?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Then  the  January  on  page  1.'{;{  means  .lanuary,  1SJ)0? 
A. — Yes,  sii'. 
40       Q.— And  duly  !>tli  <m  page     V.\2    means    ,luly    !tth,     ISiXI? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i. — These  entries,  you  say.  were  mad«'  at  the  time?  .'». — 
They  were,  sir. 

Q.— On  the  ship?      .\.— On  the  shii». 

(}. — Do  you  know  any  reason  why  there  were  no  other 
pages  in  this  book  from  page  1  through  to  this  place  where 
there  were  an\'  entries  of  seal  catches  except  the  accounts  of 
the  men;  and  I  do  not  think  they  are  there?  \. — To  a  cer- 
tain extent  thiv  aie  there. 
50  Q. — They  do  not  show  the  seal  catch,  do  they?  A. — No, 
sir. 

Q. — Then-  is  nothing  about  the  catch  of  the  men  or  of  seal 
catches  in  this  book  from  page  1  clear  through  to  the  <'nd, 
excei>t  on  ]»ages  132  and  l.'{:{?  \. — That  is  where  I  keep  the 
nc<'ount  of  the  men,  of  the  skins  that  came  on  Tmard  of  the 
vessel. 

Q. — .\nd  you  commenced  January  b(>fore  you  c<unmenced 
July?      .\. — Why.  certainly,  sir. 

Q. — .\nd  what  do  the  liisi   figures  in  the  column  on  both 
60  pages  represent?      .\. — The  22nd,  I  got  one  and  added  it  to 
the  previous  day. 

Q. — .\dded  each  catch  diiy  after  day?       .\. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — .\nd  was  the  ink  filled  in  eveiy  day?      .\. — Yes.  sir. 

O. — Were  the  pencillinys  tilled  in  eveiy  diiy?  .\. — No.  sir. 
That  was  done  within  the  last  week. 

0  —Hat  on  the  othei'  page  the  ink  was  filled  in  every  day? 
A. — Yes.  sir. 


6ii 


iV.  S.  Cox — Ui'-iross — Rc-diriM-t.) 


10 


A.— Wo  HiHt  Htai-tfd  at  the 

A. — Yi'H,  sir. 

A. — YcH,  sir,  I  wiiH  disinast- 

I  did  not  p't  ou  tlic  scaling 

the  tlrst  of  March;  I  don't 


20 


30 


40 


5c 


6o 


Q. — Then  that  gives  on  page  133  the  total  coast  catch?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Was  that  on  the  way  up? 
port  of  San  Francisco. 

Q. — Coninu-nced  in  January? 

Q. — And  was  on  tl»e  way  up? 
od  and  came  to  Victoria,     and 
grounds  again  until  sonietiiu(>  in 
know  just  what  time. 

Q. — And  your  total  of  the  coast  catch  was  1200  that  vear? 
A.— 1107. 

Q.— And  the  total  (>f  the  Heliring  Rea  catch  waw  47.^? 
A. — Yes,  sir.  That  has  Iwen  added  tlu-re  within  the  last 
week. 

Q. — Is  there  any  other  memorandum  that  you  kept  of  the 
<at<hes  e.\cejit  this?  A. — Yes,  sir;  I  had  a  small  book,  but 
I  don't  just  know  where  it  is  now. 

Q. — Did  you  keep  it  in  the  small  liook  as  well  as  in  this 
hook?  A. — 1  had  a  smal!  book  in  my  pocket,  and  as  each 
boat  came  alongside  T  put  it  in.  that  small  book. 

Q. — And  transferred  the  same  day  to  this  book?  \. — Yes. 
sir. 

(Rook  from  which  witness  testified  as  to  p.iges  1.12  iuid  1.'?^. 
marked  "No.  10"  for  identification,  being  the  same  book  as  to 
which  the  witness  previously  testified.) 

Direct  examination  resumed  by  Mr.  Peters. 

Q. — You  were  brought  d<>wn  to  the  quest i(m  of  ilie  cost  of 
outfitting  scliooneis?      .\. — Y«'S,  sir. 

Q. — I  want  to  ask  yon,  as  a  matter  of  fad,  liow  many 
schooners  you  had  intuaily  engaged  in  (lullilling  yourself. 
Did  you  have  anything  to  do  with  (Uitlitiing  one  in  isso? 
A. — No,  sir,  since  1S00  I  have  fitted  a  vessel  onl  for  sea. 

Q. — Previous  to  ISOO  you  fitted  out  none?       .\. — No.  sir. 

Q.— As  to  what  it  cost  to  feed  Indi.ins  in  1SS(J.  1SSS7.  and 
ISSS,  are  you  able  to  giv«'  any  information?      .\. —  Xo.  sir. 

ii. — When  did  you  come  to  I'ritish  Columbia?  A. — ^In  llie 
winter  of  i8SS. 

Q.— So  you  hiid  no  knowledge  whatever  of  ihi'  way  it  was 
done  prior  to  that?  .\. — I  didn't  hardly  kn<»w  theiv  was  a 
sealing  ship. 

Q. — .\nd  I  think  you  began  to  seal  the  very  first  year  you 
went  out?       .\. — Di  "SO,  yes,  sir. 

Q. — In  the  year  IHOO,  when  you  sealed,  was  the  second  year 
you  liad  been  out  in  a  sealing  ship?      .\. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Since  ISOO  you  have  been  every  year?      A. — Y<'s,  sir. 

Q. — In  what  ships?  \. — In  the  "Triumjdi"  every  year  but 
one  when  I  was  master  of  the  "T<-.  I?. Marvin." 

Q. — TIow  nmny  boats  did  you  have?  A. — I  had  six  boats 
on  the  "Tiiumph"  in  'OO  or  '01,  since  then  F  have  had  In- 
dians. 

ti.— ^Vill  you  tell  me  the  number  of  men  you  had  in  those 
years?       .\. — 2.*^  men. 

(i.— In  1M02,  and  IHO.I  and  ISOl  did  ymi  fish  with  Indians? 
.^. — In  1S02  I  was  master  of  the  sclioimer  "Marvin." 

(^ — The  other  years  you  fished  in  the  "Triumph'?"  A. — 
With  Indijins. 

ti. — When  you  ha<l  Indians  aboard  lntw  many  men  would 
vdii  have?  .V. — The  first  year  I  had  \'.\  canoes  and  20  In 
•liiins,  and  I  carried  four  saihu's,  two  mates,  co(»k,  steward 
iind  myself. 

<i. — So  your  crew  was  mixh  largei-  in  number  than  when 
yoM  carried  onlv  while  men?      .\. — Yes.  sir.  it  was. 


Ti 


'■i'l 


6l2 


lll'll 


III 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


(C.  N.  Cox— Rc'diit'ct.) 

Q. — And  ulthuHgh  the  Indians  uiiglit  coNt  you  less  por  heiid 
you  bald  to  carry  more  men?       A. — Yes,  sii. 

Q. — Is  that  the  case?  A. — Yea,  sir,  it  is.  My  own  provi- 
sion bill  has  been  Inrp^er  with  Indians  than  when  I  carried 
white  men. 

Q. — Now.  Captain  Tox.  supposing  you  had  a  .  crew  of  2."? 
men.  which  was  about  what  you  bad  on  the  "Triumph,"  and 
you  had  a  crew  of  11  men,  say  half  the  numb«>r,  also  white 
men.  do  you  think  you  could  feed  those  11  men  at  the  snuie 
rate  per  head  that  you  could  the  2:??  A. — I  am  under  tlie  im- 
pression it  will  cost  more  to  feed  the  11  than  it  would  the  2:'.. 

Q. — Ilave  you  any  doubt  about  that?  A. — I  think  it  would 
cost  more  to  f«>ed  the  11  per  man. 

Q. — Now,  then,  you  fitted  out  this  "Triumph"'  for  two 
years  with  white  men?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Can  you,  in  round  figures,  without  fjoint;  into  particn 
lars,  give  me  per  year  what  the  provision  bill  was?  .\. — 
No,  sir,  without  reference  to  my  bills  I  could  not. 

Q. — Who  would  have  those  bills?  A. — They  are  at  E.  R. 
Marvin's  office. 

Q. — Do  you  know  Mr.  Frank  Adams?      A. — I  do. 

0. — Tie  is  in  the  emi)loy  of  Marvin  &  Pompany?  A. — One 
of  the  firm  of  E.  B.  Marvin  &  Pompanv. 

Q.— Will  he  know  the  bills?      A.— He  will. 

Q. — What  two  years  was  it  von  fitted  up  the  "Triumph?" 
A.— 1800  and  ISOi. 

Q. — Now,  with  Indians  vou  fitted  up  in  what  vears?  A. — 
In  ISOn,  1S04,  1S05  and  1800. 

Q. — How  many  of  those  years  were  yon  in  the  "Triumph?" 
A. — All  si.v  years  were  in  the  "Triumph." 

Q. — Which  year  did  vou  go  on  the  "E.  Ti.  Marvin?"  .\. — 
1802,  I  think." 

Q. — ^Hiat  size  is  the  "Marvin?"  A. — T  think  she  is  al)ont 
11  fi  tons. 

O — Was  she  manned  with  Indians  or  white  men?  A.— 
White  men. 

Q. — How  many  bo.its?  A. — T  liad  six  boats  part  of  the 
season  and  a  stern  boat,  and  the  latter  part  of  the  senson 
going  to  Popper  Islands  I  had  only  five  boats  altosether. 

Q. — So  there  was  not  much  difference  in  the  eouipmeiit  of 
the  "Triumph"  and  the  "E.  R.  Marvin?"  A.— I  don't  Hii?il.- 
there  would  b<>  hardly  any  difference,  as  T  was  really  fitted 
out  for  six  boats  the  same  as  the  "Trinmtdt." 

0. — When  yon  say  you  f'tt(>d  up  with  Indians  you  have  tlio 
bills  for  that  aiso?  *    A. — 1  do,  sir. 

Q— And  you  can  produce  Ihose  bills?  A. — I  can  produce 
the  bills  for  evry  year. 

Q.— When  yon  say  you  fitt«>d  on<  what  voyage  did  you  (it 
out  for?  A. — Leave  here  in  JanuRr/  to  come  home  about 
September;  since  then  we  Hited  out  for  October,  since  180^. 

Q.— You  wen-  asked  by  Mr.  Warren  as  to  wht'ther  there 
was  not  a  good  deal  of  liick  in  this  matter,  and  particularly 
whether  tluM'e  was  not  a  good  deal  dependt'd  on  the  way  llie 
caittain  handled  his  n>.en,  and  you  said  there  was?  A.— Yes. 
sir. 

Q._Assuniing  that  yon  have  a  captain  who  knows  how  to 
handle  his  uumi.  there  is  not  much  chance  about  it,  is  there? 
\._I  consider  llie  chances  are  whether  the  captain  stays 
among  them  and  gets  them  or  not. 

Q._If  you  once  find  seals  the  captain's  du'y  Is  to  keep 
among  them?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— .\nd  if  you  do  that,  is  there  much  chance  about  it?  A. 
— No  chance  wliatever. 

Q._Why?  A.— If  you  stay  among  them  you  wiH  Rt'* 
them. 


6«3 


10 


20 


30 


(('.  N.  Cox— Ke  (liieit.)       Giistave  Uaiiseu— Rt'culled.) 

il—Do  seals  lierd  logotliei-  as  Mr.  Warren  sugiTests?  A. 
— I  never  have  seen  them  that  way. 

y.— As  a  marter  of  tact,  are  the  seals  you  get  scattered 
about  here  and  there?      A. — Yes. 

Q.— Coming  down  to  this  point  of  cliance,  did  you  ever  go 
on  a  voyage  when  yon  did  not  find  them?      A.— I  never  did, 

Q.— Given  that  you  once  find  the  seals,  is  there  any  more 
chance  about  it  than  when  you  find  mackerel  when  j'ou  are 
mackerel  Ashing?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q.— Coming  hack  to  the  point  (iboni  the  seals  being  air  in 
a  herd  together,  is  thit  tlie  case  at  all  in  the  months  of  July, 
August  and  September?  A. — I  have  never  seen  them  in 
that  way. 

Q.— How  do  you  find  the  seals  then?    A.— Scattered  about. 

Q.— On  certain  grounds?  A.— I  seldom  find  them  on  the 
same  grounds. 

Q.— How  many  will  you  find  together,  as  a  rule?  A.— 
Three  or  four;  two;  very  often  one. 

Q. — And  this  idea  of  large  herds  with  watchmen  to  keep 
llie  pelagic  sealer  off,  is  there  anything  of  that  kind  in  Beh- 
ling  Sea?      A. — Not  in  my  experience. 

Q. — Do  you  find  tliem  in  larger  bodies  on  the  southern 
coast?      A — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — When  they  are  going  up  to  the  sea?  A. — On  the  south- 
ern coast  we  find  them  in  larger  bunches. 

Q. — And  the  remarks  you  have  made  when  asked  .about  25 
seals  together,  and  that  sort  of  thing,  does  that  apply  to  Beh- 
ring  Sea?      A.  — No,  .sir. 

Q. — Did  you  ever  meet  a  mass  containing  as  many  as  25 
seals  close  together  in  Beiiring  Sea  at  once?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — You  meet  them  in  scattered  numbers?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Over  the  feeding  ground?  A. — That  is  the  case;  yes, 
sir 

The  Commissioners  then  rose. 


40 

Oommissioners  under  the  Convention   of  February  8,  1896,  Between 
G;eat  Britain  and  the  United  States  of  America 

Chambers  of  the  Legielative  Assembly, 

At  Victoria,  December  19,  1896. 

At  10:30  the  Commisioners  took  their  seats 

Alfred  R.  Bissett  was  called  as  a  witness  on  the  part  of 
Great  Britain,  and  after  being  duly  sworn  was  examined  out 
5"  of  order  bj'  consent  of  counsel. 


Captain  Gust.ive  Hansen  recalled  on  the  part  of  Great  Bri- 
tain. 

Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q. — Generally  speaking  you  have  been  engag»'d  in  sealing 
for  how  many  years  about?      A. — For  about  17  years. 
^0       Q. — Have  you  during  tliat  time  been  engaged  actually  as  a 
liunter?       A. — Yes,  sir 

Q. — For  how  many  years  were  you  actually  engaged  as  a 
hunter?     A. — About  12  years. 

Q. — And  during  that  time  have  you  shot  a  large  number  of 
seals?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Now  I  want  to  ask  you  one  question  with  regard  to 
the  shootiner  of  seals;  a  certain  number  are  lost  bv  sinking 
nrv  they  not?      A.— Yes,  sir. 


m 


11  i:imi 


6i4 


:  ^!i.il^^ 


■t|V!i 


V.\: 


((Jushivo  Ilausoii — Diirct.) 

y. — Can  ^011  give  iia  any  idea  from  yout  own  oxperienc  iu 
8liuoLiug  a8  to  wJial  is  tlie  proportion  of  sealu  you  uay  ai-u 
lost  by  siuliiug?      A. — About  2  per  cent. 

y. — Are  the  inajoiily  of  seals  sliot  while  sleeping  or  wbeu 
1  ravelling?      A. — The  niajorily  are  shot  sleeping  nowadays. 

Q. — When  does  the  loss  of  the  seal  by,  sinking  generally  oc- 
cur, is  it  when  you  shoot  them  sleeping  or  when  they  are 
jQ  travelling?  A. — When  they  are  standing  up — when  they  are 
travelling. 

().— And  your  average  of  U  per  cent.,  does  that  apply  to  the 
si'als  shot  iu  every  position?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q- — Vou  have  staled  that  they  are  lost  more  when  they  are 
Hlandiug  tip — wheu  they  are  travelling?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

y. — NVhat  is  the  reason,  iu  your  experience,  that  you  lose 

them  most  in  that  position?      A. — They  are  very  apt  to  face 

around  to  you  when  you  are  shooting  them  with  a  rifle.      t)f 

course  you  will  have  to  shoot  them  with  a  rifle  because  you 

20   can  shoot  them  further  away  than  if  you  use  a  shot  gun. 

<i. — They  face  you  when  you  are  shooting  them  with  a  rifle, 
and  what  is  the  effect  of  thiit?  A. — When  you  shoot  them 
that  way  you  shoot  them  in  the  neck,  and  if  you  break  his 
neck  bone  his  head  goes  back  and  of  coures  he  floats.  But  if 
you  do  not  shoot  them  that  way  you  only  touch  some  cords 
or  veins  and  he  actually  starts  up,  and  by  doing  that  he  pulls 
himself  down.  Uy  the  time  you  would  get  up  there  to  him 
(here  would  be  nothing  but  a  pool  of  blood.  lie  might  be 
only  a  few  inches  down  in  the  water  but  your  boat  would  go 
3°  over  him  and  you  would  not  get  him. 

Q. — If  his  head  drops  forward  does  he  float?  A. — Yes. 
sir. 

Q. — And  if  not  he  has  a  chance  of  sinking.  Is  that  it? 
A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — There  is  another  thing  whi»'li  I  wish  to  ask  you  about 
seals.  Will  you  tell  me  as  regards  the  wind,  which  way  the 
seals  generally  travel?      A. — To  windward. 

Q. — Is  that  the  invariable  rule?  A. — That  is  the  way  I 
found  it  all  the  time. 

Q. — They  are  always  travelling  to  windward?  .\. — Yes, 
sir,  that  is  the  only  instinct  they  do  have. 

Q. — So  that  wlu'U  you  are  after  seals  you  find  them  going 
to  windward?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Always?  A. — They  might  conu>  in  suddenly  from  the 
weather  side  and  make  a  dive  to  leeward,  but  then  we  always 
find  them  geneialy  iu  going  to  windward. 

(i. — Now  in  your  previ«)U8  examination  you  describe  sonu* 
catcht's  you  made.      I  want  you  to  come  down  to  the  year 

(i. — Were  you  seal  (ishing  in  that  year?      A. — Y'es,  sir. 

Q.— In  what  schooner?      A.— The  "Adela." 

Q.— How  many  boats  had  she?      A. — She  had  seven  cantM's. 

Q. — She  had  no  boats?      A. — She  had  a  stern  boat. 

Q. — .\i»l  Indian  hunters?      .\. — Yes,  sir. 

ij. — Do  you  remember  tlie  total  of  your  crew  including  the 
hunters?      A. — Nineteen  is  the  total,  I  think. 

Q.._\Vliere  did  you  hunt  in  ISSS?  A.— I  hunted  par 
licularly  outside  on  the  coast  here  anj}  up  ti)ward8  the  Fair 
6o    Wejither  grounds. 

Q. — Did  you  po  to  Hehring  Sea?      A. — W  \  sir. 

Q. — Tlefore  I  ask  you  the  ttartioilars  of  youi  itch,  will  you 
tell  m«'  where  the  log  or  <»ther  books  of  the  "Adela"  are;  have 
you  got  them?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q.— What  became  of  them?  A.— They  were  lost  on  the 
schoonj'r  "Laura''  on  Nootka  Sound. 

Q. — You  entered  Rehrinc  Sea  that  year  about  what  time? 
A. — Somewhere  about  the  4th  of  July. 


40 


50 


10 


20 


30 


40 


SO 


6o 


615 

(Giistavi'  Uuiim'U — Diroot.) 

Q.— How  loui?  <lid  you  sla.v  there  iu  that  yvav,  18S8?  A. — 
I  kuoekfd  off  .si-aliug  011  the  8th  of  AiiguHt.' 

ti.— You  Ii'ft  tht'u?  A.— No,  I  knotkod  oil'  soaliuR.  I  lost 
a  fanoc  and  I  miit  loukiii);  for  it  for  about  ttve  or  six  da.vs. 

Q- — You  lost  a  cauot-  aud  you  wi-nt  huutiut;  for  it?  *A. — 
Yi's,  air. 

Q. — Aud  jou  lost  how  many  days?  A. — It  was  a  wet'k  be- 
fore I  got  out  of  Behring  Sea. 

Q. — Did  you  liud  the  canoe?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q.— What  was  the  cousequence  of  that,  ou  the  other  In- 
dians?     A. — They  would  not  hunt  any  more. 

Q- — W"»  that  canoe  absolutely  lost?  A. — No  he  was 
picked  up  by  another  vessel. 

Q.— You  were  hunting  in  the  Kehriug  Wea  that  year  ou  the 
8th  of  August?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q-— ^Vill  you  tell  nie  how  numy  seals  you  caught  iu  Hehr- 
iug  Sea  that  y«'ar?  A.— 1  cannot  exactly  tell  but  I  think  I 
must  have  caught  about  l.:{(»(»  in  Behring  Sea.  I  caught 
l,.?tM)  in  1880  altogether. 

Q.— What  part  of  Behring  Rea  did  you  fish  in  that  year? 
We  will  take  the  Pribyjotf  Islands  as  a  starting  point.  Now 
in  what  direction  dia  yoti  hunt  from  the  Tribyloff  Islands? 
-V. — The  first  p;irt  I  was  to  the  southward  and  westward. 

Q. — About  what  distance  off?      A. — About  »>(>  or  7(1  miles. 

Q. — And  the  latter  part,  where  were  you?  A. — A  little 
to  the  east. 

Q. — How  far  east?  A. — The  direction  was  about  nornor- 
west  of  I'nimak  I'ass. 

Q. — And  about  what  distance  from  the  Pribylofl"  Islands? 
A. — 150  miles  at  least. 

Q. — That  was  the  history  of  your  sealing  in  1888?  A. — 
Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  go  sealing  in  1889?      A. — Yes,  sir 

Q. — In  what  schooner?      A. — The  Adela. 

Q. — What  number  of  canoes  had  you?      A. — Seven  canm's 

Q. — AVas  your  crew  the  same  as  it  was  the  year  before?  A 
— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Where  did  you  go  sealing  that  y-ar?  A. — To  the  south 
ward  and  westward  of  the  I'ribylofl'  Islands. 

Q. — Did  you  go  to  Behring  Sea?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — When  did  you  enter  the  Behring  Sea?  A. — I  think 
somewhere  about  the  8th  July. 

Q. — And  how  long  did  you  stay  theie?  A. — Till  the  mid- 
dle of  August  I  think. 

Q. — What  was  your  catch?  A. — My  catch  that  year  was 
about  800. 

Q. — Was  that  in  Behring  Sea  or  altogether?  A. — In  Beh- 
ring Sea.  1  gol  Ilaidah  Indians  from  the  (iueen  Charlotte 
Islands. 

Q.— You  caught  no  seals  on  the  coast?  A.— No,  I  caught 
I  hem  all  in  Behring  Sea. 

Q. — You  gave  as  a  reason  that  you  had  some  particular 
kind  of  Indians?  A.— Yes,  sir.  Haidahs,  from  the  Queen 
<  'harlotte  Islar  ds. 

Q.— Did  }ou  hunt  on  the  coast  at  all' 
the  coast  in  the  spring. 

Q. — Did  you  catch  any  in  the  spring? 
•  aught  aboiit  200. 

Q.— That  is  not  included  in  th"  800? 

Q.— You  say  you  had  Queen  Charlotte  Indians  in  the  Behr- 
ing Sea?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Is  there  any  difference  between  them  and  the  Indians 
you  generally  have?  A. — Well,  the  Queen  Charlotte  Indians 
used  guns  altogether  at  that  time.  I  do  not  know  whether 
they  might  use  sjieara  now. 


M 


\. — We  hunted  on 
.\. — Yes,    sir;    I 


-No. 


6i6 


'HV\\v.\ 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


((lUHliive  UiMiKen — FMropf.) 

Q. — Which  wtT«'  the  bi-Ht  InilinnH,  i\w  IndiiinH  thiit  iiHod 
M]H'iir8  or  thf  Qdoeii  Churhttto  liulinnH  that  used  guim?  A. 
A. — I  think  iho«u  who  had  the  Hpeai-H  were  tlie  iM'st. 

Q.— As  u  iimlter  oi  fa«t,  when  y«»u  went  out  in  1889  liad 
^•ou  as  expert  hunters  as  you  had  the  year  JJefore?  A.— N« 
sir,  I  liad  nut. 

Q.— Did  yon  over  hunt  willi  these  same  Indians  after- 
wards?    A.— N'.),  1  did  not  talie  lliem  any  more. 

Q.— VVli.y?  A.— One  tiling  is  that  1  could  not  get  tlu-m 
to  lower  the  boats  on  Sunday. 

Q. — And  when  they  did  lower  the  boats  were  they  as  pood 
hunters  as  the  others  or  were  they  noi?  A.— No,  they  wen? 
not  as  fjcKid.  1  Ihiuli  I  had  better  chances  that  year  than 
the  year  before,  but  these  Indians  would  po  out  in  the  morn- 
inp  and  when  tliey  caupht  10,  12  or  15  seals,  even  if  it  was 
only  f)  o'clock,  they  would  come  back  and  not  po  back  any 
more,  I  could  not  persuade  them  to  po  out  apnin. 

Q— Your  hunters  in  188!)  were  not  salisfactory?    A.— No. 

(J.— And  yon  never  tried  IIumu  before,  that  was  your  first 
experience  witli  them?    A. — Yes. 

Q.— Why  did  you  h'ave  the  Sea  m  early  as  the  middle  of 
Aupust?  A.— i  could  not  do  anything  "with  the  Indians, 
they  would  not  hunt  any  njore. 

Q.— In  1889  what  part  of  the  Sea  did  you  Inint  in?  A.— 
Particularly  to  the  southward  and  westward  and  in  the  lat- 
ter part  of  the  year  to  the  eastward. 

Q. — Is  that  penerally  speakinp  the  same  pround  you  hunt- 
ed in  the  year  before?      A. — Y«'s,  about  the  sjime  ground. 

Q. — Did  you  go  out  in  the  year  1890?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — With  the  same  number  of  canoes?  A. — I  had  only 
six  canoes  in  1890. 

Q. — And  the  same  8«ho<mer?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — This  time  what  Indians  had  you?  A. — Kympiot  In- 
dians. 

Q. — They  understood  spcarinp?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  they  use  guns  at  all?  A. — Well,  I  think  one  or 
two  Indians  had  guns. 

Q. — As  a  general  rule  did  they  use  guns  or  spears?  A. — 
Spears. 

Q.— What  time  did  you  enter  the  Sea  in  1890?  A.— I  do 
not  remember  when  I  entere<l  the  Sea  exactly,  but  it  was  the 
beginning  of  July,  between  the  4th  and  9tli  of  .Inly. 

Q. — How  long  did  you  stay  there?  A. — I  stayed  there 
until  .August. 

Q. — What  time  in  August?  A. — I  cannot  exactly  tell,  but 
somewhere  about  the  12th. 

Q. — Can  you  tell  me  how  many  seals  you  caught  in  1890? 
A. — No,  sir,  I  do  not  remember. 

Q. — Was  your  cat<h  large  or  small?  A. — It  was  not  big. 
I  do  not  think  I  caught  more  than  500  or  000. 

Q. — In  IJehring  Sea?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  reason  do  yon  put  that  down  to?  A. — The 
hunters  I  had  were  not  any  extra  good. 

Q. — And  what  about  the  weather?  A. — The  weather  was 
pn'tty  rough,  I  think,  in  tiie  tirst  part  (»f  .\upust. 

Q. — Whereabouts  did  you  hunt  tliat  year?  .\. — Pretty 
near  the  same  ground  but  more  to  the  eastward,  I  think. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  how  far  eastward  you  went  that 
year,  about  what  distance?  A. — Prom  30  to  60  miles  from 
Unimak. 

Q. — During  all  those  years  that  you  have  been  fishing,  in 
1888,  1889  and  1890,  not  to  speak  'of  other  years,  you  have 
fished  somewhere  about  the  same  place?  A. — Pretty  much, 
yes,  sir. 


617 


10 


20 


(UuHtiiVf   llaiiMfii — IHi'i'ct — < 'rtmH.) 

Q.— VVIiy  did  >ou  do  ILiil?      A.— Tlic  Hist  part  of  tlio  Boa 
Hon  I  wntt  aimiui  to  llie  wi-8tward  uutil  1  beard  of  anything 
wrong,  and  tlion  I  went  to  the  eastward. 

Q. — What  was  it  that  Bent  .vou  to  tlie  cant  ward?  A.— F»>r 
Hufety  to  get  out  of  the  way  of  tlie  cutter. 

Q. — 1  want  you  to  show  me,  on  tlie  chart,  wliere  did  you  go 
to  the  eaHtward  in  IHOO.  what  in  the  latitude  and  longitude 
of  the  spot  you  went  to?  A. — It  is  about  Bti  N.  hit.  and  Uir» 
W.  long. 

Q. — That  is  the  position  where  you  went  to?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Is  that  the  place  where  you  were  in  the  habit  of  hunt- 
ing seals  before?      A — Yes,  sir,  I  have  been  there  formerly. 

Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Lansing; 

Q. — How  many  years  before  1M88  had  you  hunted?  A. — I 
htarted  in  1879. 

Q. — What  vessel  did  you  start  on?  A. — The  schooner 
"Flying  Mist,"  of  San  Francisco. 

Q. — In  that  year  y«Mi  w«'re  huntiug  on  board?  A. — I  was 
second  mate. 

Q. — In  1880  what  vessel  were  you  on?  A.— On  the  same 
vessel. 

Q.— What  position  did  you  hold  in  that  ship?  A.— Second 
mate  again. 

Q. — And  in  1>^81  what  vessel  were  y«m  on?  A. — I  was  on 
llie  schooner  "Otter." 

Q. — What  position  did  you  hold?      A. — Boat  steerer. 
30       Q. — And  in  1.S82  what  were  you?      A. — I  was  hunter. 

Q. — In  what  ship?      A. — The  "Alexander." 

Q. — And  In  1883  what  were  von?  A. — I  was  hunter  on  the 
"Adela." 

Q. — Were  yon  hunting  seals  particularly?  A. — Yes,  sir, 
seals  and  otters  both. 

Q. — And  in  1884  what  were  vou  on?  A. — I  was  hunter  on 
Hie  "Adela." 

Q. — Who  was  the  master?      A. — Capt.  Isaacson. 

Q. — And  in  1885  what  vessel  were  you  on?      A. — I  was 
4°  captain  and  hunter  of  the  "Adela." 

Q. — I  suppose  captain  you  are  a  pretty  good  shot,  are  you 
not?  A. — Well,  I  don't  linow.  sir;  I  would  rather  somebody 
else  would  tell  you  that  than  myself. 

Q. — You  have  been  pretty  fortunate  every  time  you  have 
l)een  out  hunting?      A. — Yes,  sir,  I  got  my  luck. 

Q. — And  you  generally  got  most  every  seal  you  shot?  A. — 
\o,  I  did  not. 

(i. — You  generally  liit  most  every  seal  you  shot  at?  A. — 
It  is  pretty  hard  to  tell;  it  is  hard  to  tell  whether  you  hit 
liiem  or  not. 

(i.— In  the  lirst  part  of  your  hunting  you  only  used  the 
lilies  and  you  did  not  use  shot  guns  at  all?  \. — I  used  the 
lities. 

Q.— With  ritles  you  shoot  at  a  much  longer  distance?  A. 
— Yes,  sir. 

Q.— You  are  a  pretty  good  shot  with  a  rifle?  A.— I  do  not 
call  myself  a  good  shot,  I  stand  a  chance  with  some  of  them 
iiiivliow. 

Q.— But  you  had  a  good  deal  of  expeiience?  A.— I  had  a 
iiiHH\  deal  of  experience,  yes,  sir. 

Q.—Tlie  vessols  that  you  sealed  in  were  from  Ran  Francis- 
( ()?  A.— The  first  going  off,  yes,  sir;  the  "Flying  Mist,"  the 
"Otter"  and  the  "Alexand<'r"  all  belonged  to  Ran  Francisco. 

Q._Tliev  bebmged  to  Liel)es  &  To?      A.— The  "Otter"  and 
".Mexander"   did,   and   tlie  "Flying   Mist"    belonged   to  the 
rihhetts  Bros. 
Q._Wlio  owned  the  "Adela?      A.— A  firm  in  Yokohama. 


50 


60 


•'^^^^^^^^H 

PP^f  : 

"'^^^^^^^B 

•^^^^^^^^B 

\  'I- 

iH^^^^^H 

'illl 

jHIII 

i  }     1 

r.is 


u 


■HIMjiM 


to 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


(DllNtllVC     lllltlMfll (  'fOHM.) 

H. —  I  Hii|i|MiHc  tlu'  JinoiiniN  (»f  III)'  ?iriiiM  who  owimmI  tlicwi 
llirt-t*  HliipH  .voii  i-<>f<T  to  will  hIiow  how  nitiii.v  wiiIh  yoii  ciiiiKht 
ill  thcHc  y«'iirn?      A. — Ycm.  mIt. 

Q. — Von  were  hnnti-r  one  yvnv  in  the  "Adi-hi?"  A. —  I  wan 
hunter  two  vfiirn  nntt  iinotlM-r  ncin  niiiHtcr,  iiiid  iiftrr  thiit  I 
wiiH  iniiHtcr  tind  hunter  nivm'lf. 

(J. — IIow  iniui\  Ht'iiln  do  you  tliinl»  you  shot  yourwlf?  A. — 
I  do  not  know,  that  iH  vt-rv  liard  to  state;  I  cannot  tell. 

Q. — You  have  not  had  any  later  exiterience  in  Hhootin); 
HealH  have  you?  A. — I  have  been  hunting!  every  year  unlil 
this  year. 

Q. — Voii  weri'  alwayn  a  hunter?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — In  the  ntern  boat?  A.^I  wan  in  the  boat  nioHt  of  the 
time. 

Q. — You  liave  alwayH  l»een  very  fortunate  in  later  yearn  in 
your  Hhootin^;.  have  you  not?  A.— Yen,  I  liav*'  eaunlit  as 
rnueh  as  anyltody  elw-,  perhajtH  a  little  iiuwe  sonietiuieH. 

Q.— Who  has  1  be  record  of  the  number  of  skins  you  took 
in  later  vears?      .\.— I  do  not  know  that  anybody  has. 

Q._I)i,l  you  <  ver  take  any  seals  anywhere  besides  shootitur 
Ihem?      A. — Yes.  sir,  T  havo. 

Q.— now?      A.— ^Vitb  a  club 

Q.— Where?      A.— Ashore. 

Q.— Whore?  A.~I  was  on  St.  Paul  Island  in  1S.<!4  and 
pot  sei7.<>d  and  taken  to  Pan  Francisco, 

Q. — Th  that  one  of  the  Pribylott'  Islands?      A. — Yes.  sii'. 

Q. — Did  you  ever  land  on  the  PribylolT  Tslands  auaiii?  A. 
Yen,  sir. 

Q.— Did  not  yon  mid  them  in  1SS4?      .\.— Yes.  sir. 

Q.— Did  not  von  raid  thorn  in  the  "Otter"  in  1SS1? 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — Win 
should  we  spend  any  time  on  this? 

Mf.  Lnnsinf;: — I  want  to  show  what  kind  of  a  witness  they 
produce. 

The  Commissioner  on  <he  part  of  the  T'nited  States: — Tlie 
witness  has  very  frankly  told  you  he  did  raid  the  islands. 

Mr.  LnnRinp: — I  am  askinp  was  he  not  there  in  1HS1.  (To 
witness)  Were  you  there  in  IHitO?      No.  sir. 

Q. — In  November?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Were  you  not  seixed  by  the  Collector  of  t'ustoms  iu 
ISOO  for  not  making  a  proper  entry,  with  40(1  skins  on  board, 
and  tined  $1.()(H)?      A.— \<t,  sir,  l"  was  not  fined  ^1,(M)(». 

Q. — Y'ou  never  were  Hiied  bv  the  Collector  of  Customs  #1,- 
000?      A.— \o.  sir.  not  $1,000." 

Q.— Well,  «H00?      A.— Yes.  sir. 

Q.— You  took  about  400  skins  in  that  raid?  A.— No,  sir. 
I  did  not. 

Q. — What  time  did  you  clear  fr  .1  this  jiort  to  no  up?  A. 
I  do  not  rememher,  sometime  in  September. 

Q. — Yon  went  up  there  in  Xovembei-  seal  Iiuntinft?  A. — 
I  p  where? 

Q. — In  BehrinK  Sea?      A. — No,  1  was  not  in  RehrinR  Sea. 

Q.— You  were  not  in  Ilehrinp  Sea  in  1890?      A.— No.  sir. 

Q.—llid  yon  make  iuiy  entry  of  the  catch  in  the  Ilehrinp; 
Sea  at  the  Custom  House  for  the  diflerent  years?  A.— Yes. 
sir. 

Q._Pi(i  you  separate  your  roast  catch  from  the  Pehrinn 
Sea  catch  in  makinp  yoiir  entry?  A.— We  fjenerally  came 
back  here  to  set  out  for  thi'  Pehrin)i  Sea. 

Q._T)irt  yon  separate  the  Sand  Point  catch  from  the  Rehr 
inp  Sea  catch?      .\. — T  never  went  into  Sand  Point. 

Q.— Rut  you  hunted  on  the  way  to  Rehrinp  Sea  didn't  you? 
A. — Y'es.  sir. 


C)\fj 


10 


20 


30 


{(iiiHtiivt'  HiinHcii — «.'ri>HH— UftlirtM't.     C.  N.  Cox — Itt'-t-allLMl.) 

y.— And  yMi  leporlcd  ii  all  Ht'lti-iiiK  Hen  rnti-h  wIh-ii  >ou 
jrot  buck?      A. — Y«'H,  Hir. 

ii. — Now  iu  istto  didn't  yon  r*-|iort  to  the  (JustoniH  llonMe 
431  HcnlH?      A. —  I  do  not  rfinoniltcr. 

(|. — Would  not  tliat  lit'  abont  ri|;lit?  A. — I  imaKint'  I  bad 
Konn'wli«'iv  about  TitM*  in  lHiM».  I  do  not  cxartl.v  it-nH-inbcr. 

(). — If  it  a|>|)*-  ii'H  an  VM  in  tin*  l>ool<s  of  tbc  ('iiHttnn  IIouhc 
it  would  j»robal)l.v  be  corn'cl?  A. — If  it  \h  in  tin*  t'lintoni 
|[ouH(>  it  nii^'bt  b«>  no. 

Q. — Did  yon  make  a  r<'|tort  in  .vour  own  bandwritiuK?  A. 
— ( 'Crtainly.  I'vcry  tiiiic  I  canu'  in. 

Q. — For  bow  loan  liavc  voii  done  that?  A. — For  all  the 
tinu'  I  liavc  b«>cn  nniHt«>r. 

Q. — Ro  the  CuHtoiiiH  FIouhc  rcpoi't  for  your  vckhcI  would  be 
correft?      A. — J  think  ho. 

Uedirect  exaiiiiiuition  t)y  Mr.  T'etors; 

(J. — You  nnidc  I  lie  Htatcnii'nt,  in  answer  to  Mr.  LanHinK, 
that  you  did  not  ^o  into  ItclirinK  ^*'ii  !■>  1)^!*<K  that  only  refers 
to  the  fall?      A.— Vert.  Hir. 

Q. — You  d«>  not  refer  to  the  Huninier  wlu-n  you  bad  iM'eii 
there?       A. — No,  nir. 

Q. — In  1SJ)t»  you  were  not  in  Itehrin);  Sea  in  the  fall?  A. 
— No,  I  wan  not  on  that  side. 

Q. — You  were  not  on  tlie  American  side  w<'re  you?  A. — 
Xo,  Hir,  no  more  than  tliat  I  eanie  and  went,  in  eomin^  back 
to  south wardH  of  the  Aleutian  Islands. 

The  witness  was  further  examined  in  refiM-enee  to  Claim 
No.  24,  tlw  schooner  "Winnifred." 


Clarence  N.  Cox,  re  called  by  Great  T^ritain. 
"♦^       Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q. — I  was  examining  you,  Mr.  Cox,  with  regard  to  tlie  ex- 
penditures on  i-ertain  v«'ssels  which  you  had  fitted  out  in  the 
years  1H1M)  and  IS!)1     A.— ISJMl  is  the  first  vessel  I  fitted  out. 

(J. — And  you  could  not  tell  me  from  memory  the  amount  of 
the  expenditures?       A. — No. 

Q. — That  is  for  i)rovisinns?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

i}. — Have  you  looked  at  it  since?  A. — Y'es,  sir,  we  have 
none  throufjh  the  bills  apitroximately. 
50  Q. — Oive  me  approximately,  for  those  two  years?  And  in 
order  to  make  it  so  it  can  easily  be  checked.  A  gentleman 
who  is  more  familiar  with  the  vouchers  than  this  man  will  be 
produced  here  in  court  with  the  vouchers,  and  if  my  learned 
friend  wants  to  go  throujjh  with  them  he  can. 

Witness:— IWM.  my  provisittn  bill  was  J^1,K'{2.28. 

Q. — For  what  schooner?      A. — The  big  "Triumph." 

Q. — Give  me  the  next  one.  A. — That  was  white  men  and 
60  ^'k'  tl''8t  year  I  had  the  Si  washes — Indians — would  be  18!K{. 
My  provision  bill  was¥2,4:U. 

Q. — How  mapv  Indians?  A. — I  liad  \^  canoes  and  26  In- 
dians. 

Q. — And  some  white  men  besides?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — How  many  whitemen?  A. — Four  sailors,  two  mates, 
the  cook  and  myself. 

Q. — And  those  are  the  only  years  you  have  got  there?  A. 
—The  onlv  vears.      1  hadn't  time  to  ro  tbroHRh  any  further. 


Ip^ 


■lil'll 


till!, 


620 

((■.  N.  Vox-  Direct— Cross.      Eiiiik'  Kimihu— Direct.) 

Q. — The  siiiiu'  vessel  one  year  eaiTied  white  men  and  the 
other  Indians?  A.— Yes,  sir.  Mr.  Adams  in  tlio  office  of 
E.  H.  Marvin  &  Companv.  can  prodnce  vouchers  for  each 
and  every  year. 

Il.v  the  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  tlie  TTnited  States: 

Q. — f 'aptain  Cox,  dops  that  differ  from  your  estimate  of  |11 

10  and  ffi.      Did  you  figure  that  ont  to  see?      A. — FiRurinp  tliis 

out  rehitively  in  1H!(|  1  tliinlv  the  average  come  about  fll.32. 

Q. — Substantially  supports  your  statement?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

The  CommisMioner  on  the  jmrt  of  the  United  States: — Is 
there  any  occasion  to  spend  any  more  time  on  the  nmtter  on 
either  side? 


Mr.  Dickinson: — There  is 
vour  Honour. 


a     reserved     cross-examination 


20 


30 


The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States  :^Upon 
direct  examination  he  stated  about  fll  and  he  supports  it, 
and  I  merely  asked  !he  question  whether  it  was  necessary  to 
spend  any  more  time. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  want  to  ask  him  as  to  the  average  cost  per 
man  for  the  Indians. 

\Vitness: — An  average  of  ^H.!)4.  That  is,  there  are  Indians 
and  white  men  together;  there  were  2(»  Indians  and  eiglit 
white  men  on  the  vessel. 


Oss-exaniination  by  Mr,  Warren: 

Q. — I  do  not  think  it  appears  in  the  examination  as  to  the 
number  of  months  the  voyage  is  expected  to  cover. 

The  Commissioner  im  the  part  of  the- United  States: — \Vliy 
do  you  want  to  go  into  that.  Mr.  \Varren?  His  figures  sujt 
port  the  figures  brought  out  on  direct  examination. 

Mr.  Warren: — I  want  to  get  the  length  of  the  voyage  that 
40   is  all,  in  1891  and  im?.. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — That  you  fitted  out  for? 

Witness:— IS'.d  was  from  Jantiary  ISth.       I  was  gone  to 

August  Ist.      Wo  figured  it  for  seven  inonths. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  StateR:— The 
question  is,  what  time  yon  fitted  out  for? 

Witness : — Seven  months. 

50         Q.— In  1H!)3  what  time  did  you  figure  for?      A.— We  figur- 
ed for  the  Utth  of  January  and  10th  of  Sejttember. 


Einile  Ilamlas,  recalled  on  tlie  part  of  (ireat  Uritain,  being 
60   one  of  the  six  witnesses,  to  be  called  under  the  ruling  of  the 
court : 

Direct  examinaficm  by  Sir  C.  H.  Tupper; 

Q. — You  were  out  sealing  in  1S8H?      A.— Yes,  sir. 
Q.— In  IH81»?      A.— Yes.  sir. 
Q.— 1891?      A.— Yes,  sir. 
(i— '802?       A.— Yes,   sir. 
Q.— ;.'93?      A.— Yes,  sir. 


621 


10 


w 


(Euiile  liainlttM — Direct.) 

Q.— I>!iy4  ?      -\  .—Yes,  sii-. 
(J. — Aud  this  year?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You    hav-'    beou    engaged    each  aud  evei^  jear  as  a 
luinter?      A. — Excepting  tliis  year. 

Q. — What  year  was  it  when  .vouv  attention  was  first  directed 
to  the  question  of  the  seals  shot  aud  lost?      A. — In  which 
regard,  as  to  siulving? 
Q.— Yes?      A.— It  was  chieliy  in  l)Hr2. 

y.— llow  was  it  that  your  attention  came  to  be  directed  to 
that?  A. — One  of  the  cutters  boarded  us  and  the  officer  ask- 
ed us  how  many  seal  usually  sank  and  no  one  appeared  to 
kuow  excepting  by  guess  work. 
Q.— That  was  in  18!):i?  A.— Y^s,  sir. 
y. -After  that,  what  did  you  do?  A.— After  that  1  kept 
accouut. 

Q.— For  your  own  satisfaction?      A.— Yes,  sir. 
(2.— How  did  you  keep  that  account?      A.— On  the  books 
2o   there  (indicating.) 

Q- — Was  it  an  account  in  reference  to  your  own  shooting? 
A. — My  own  shooting,  yes,  sir. 

H. — Did  those  books,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  contain  more  than 
your  own  shooting?      A. — One  nior*;  hunt<>r  only. 

g.— To  what  years  do  those  books  relate?  A.'— 18!);{,  181)4. 
181)3. 

Q. — ^Vhat  8y.steni  did  y(Mi  adopt  in  ordei-  to  keep  a  record 
of  the  seals  lost  by  sinking  after  beins.^  shot  by  you?  A. — 
The  first  year  I  put  down  the  figures  what  I  missed  and  what 
sunk. 

Q. — (Joing  back  over  IS'Xi  (hen  turn  to  the  first  entry  in 
this  record?      A.— April  18<);{. 

Q. — April  is  the  first  month  in  which  you  started  this  re- 
c(ud?      A. — The  first  month  I  sunk  any  seal  that  year. 

Q. — How  many  seals  did  vou  shoot  in  that  month?      A.— 
1(14. 
Q.— And  secured  Hi4?      A.— I  got  iM._ 
(i. — How  many  did  you  shoot  and  lose?      A  — I  sunk  three 
that  month. 

Q.— And  on  what  date  did  you  shoot  your  first  seals  in  that 
month?      A.— On  the  5th. 
(2. — You  shot  14  on  the  ."th,  was  it?      A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q.— Five  on  the  (ith.  five  on  the  l(»th,  25  on  the  llth.  six  on 
the  12th,  six  on  the  i:?th?       A.— Yes,  sir. 

il — Now,  on  (hat  day  how  many  did  yon  shoot  and  los*-  by 
sinking?      A. —  I  got  six  and  shot  two  more  and  sunk  them. 
Q.— On  the  ir>(li  you  shot  and  secured  two,  17th  six,  18th 
2(».  2()thH?      A.— Yes,  sir. 
Q.— Now,  on  '.lie  2lHt,  you  shot  how  nmny?      .\. — I  got  six. 
(i.— Did  vou  shoot  any  more?      A.— I  sunk  one. 
Q.— On  the  22nd  you  shot  lit  and  seoired  them?      A.— Yes, 
sir. 

Q.— 2:?rd  five.  20th  17,  28  13,  ;Wth  4.      So  that  out  of  that 
lo(  (hat  month  yo\i  lost  only  three  that  you  shot?      A.— Y«'8, 

sir.  „       4      -.- 

Q.— Have  von  another  month  in  that  year?      A.— ^es,  sir 
(J.— In  the"  month  of  May  you  shot  and  sec\ired  7a,  is  that 

riglit?      A. — Yes,  sir. 
(i.— And  vou  shot  at  and  lost  by  sinking  1? 
(i.— That' was  on  the  8tli?      A.— Yes.  sir. 

sunk  one. 
Q._You  shol  74  aud  secured  7X  and  lost  one  from  sinlnng 

iif(er  being  sho(?       A.— Yes,  sir.  ,    ,       ,  ,  ,,« 

ti.— Take  the  next  i.iondi.  -lune.      You  shot  and  secured  17? 

■   Q^_\mv,'"whi>(  is  the  uexl.       What  year  do  you  come  to 
now?      A.— 18!>4.      "Oscar  and  Hattie." 


40 


io 


')0 


.\. — Yes,  sir. 
I  got  7:5  and 


111 


'lil'hw 


I  I 


lO 


20 


30 


622 

I^Kiiiilc  UainlaM — Direct — Cross.) 

Q. — Now  iu  April,  1894,  you  shot  89  seals  and  secured  98? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Losing  one  from  siukiug  after  belnp  shot?      A. — That 
is  correct. 

Q. — In  May  you  shot  85  seals?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  secured  84  and  you  lost  one  from  sinking  after  be- 
ing shot?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Take  the  next  niontli.  .lune.       Vou  shot  l(»2  seals,  all 
told?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  you  lost  none  from  sinking  after  being  shot?      A. 
— None. 

Q.— August  is  the  next  month  of  1894?      A.— Yes.  sir. 

Q.— Did  you  lose  any  that  you  shot  that  month?      A.— None 
at  all. 

Q. — How  many  did  y<»u  shoot?      A. — 2fi. 

Q. — And  secured  tliem  all?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — What  in  September?      A. — September  is  out. 

Q. — The  other  record  is  given  you  by  your  fellow  hunter, 
what  is  his  name?      A. — Hake. 

Q. — Where  does  he  live?       .\. — TTt're  in  Victoria. 

Q. — Kept  in  the  same  way?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  is  contained  in  that  book?      A. — Y«'s.  sir. 

Q.— What  is  this  year?      A.— 1S9.'». 

Q. — You  have  a  book  for  189.')  kept  on  the  same  plan?    A. 
— Hardly  the  same.      Difl'erent  kind  of  book. 

Q. — Kept  for  the  .same  object?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— What  is  your  first  month  in  1895?      A.— March. 

Q. — How  many  seals  did  you  shoot?      A. — 28. 

Q. — Out  of  the  28  seals  you  shot  how  many  were  lost  from 
sinking?      A. — None. 

Q.— What  is  the  next  month?      A.— April. 

ij. — How  many  seals  did  you  shoot  in  Ajtril?      A. — 101. 

(i. — Out  of  them  how  many  were  lost?      A. — One. 

Q. — 192  you  Khot  and  lost  one  securing  191?  A. — Yes. 
sir. 

Q. — What  is  (lie  next  month?      A. — May. 

Q. — now  many  seals  did  you  shoot  iu  May?      A. — 45. 

Q. — Did  you  lose  any?       A. — No.  sir. 

Q. — What  is  Hie'  next  month?      A. — June. 

Q. — ITow  many  did  you  shoot  in  .lune?      A. — 21.' 

Q. — Did  yon  lose  any?      A. — None. 

Q.— What  is  (he  next  month?      A.— July.       I  killed  ao. 

Q- — How  many  did  yoii  lose  from  sinking?      A. — None. 

().— .\ugust?      A.—  I  shot  .">4  and  only  got  .^(1  of  them. 

Q. — And  lost  the  others  how?      A. — lly  sinking. 

(■i- — After  being  sho(?       A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — What  is  (he  next  moiidi?      A. — September. 

Q— TTow  many  did  yon  shoot  in  September?  A.— I  shot 
three  . 

Q.— .\nd  .sank  two  more?  A.— 1  killed  (Ive  and  got  three. 

Q.— Is  that  the  end  of  your  record?  A.— That  is  the  end 
of  my  record,  yes.  sir. 

('ross-examinalion  by  Mr.  Warren: 

*-l- — Where  w(  re  yon  shooting  the  seals  in  those  years,  Iteh- 
ring  Sea  altogether?  A.— No.  sir;  on  the  coast,  the  Jajmn 
(3y    coast  and  i'opper  Islands. 

Q. — Some  of  those  years  yon  were  not  allowed  to  shoot  in 
Hehring  Sea?       .\. — No.  sir. 

Q. — So  that  proportion  does  not  apply  to  Itehring  Sea?  A. 
—  It  didn't  ai»ply  to  llehring  Sea. 

Q. — The  numiier  of  seals  yon  shot  a(  and  wounded  and 
escaped  are  iioi  included  in  that?       .\. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Thai  mei'cly  iii'liides  (he  seals  wherever  yon  may  have 
eliot  tliem  (hat  were  killed  and  sunk?      A.  — Yes,  sir. 


40 


.SO 


■■  :    ;/; 


10 


20 


40 


60 


62  3 

(Kmile  Uanilais — Crdss.) 

(2. — Vou  ai'o  not  able  to  state  the  proportion  of  seals  that 
vou  shot  at  and  \vouu<le(l  (hat  aftevwards  escmped?  A. — Of 
(•ourse  I  wouldn't  state.       This  is  what  I  seen. 

tj. — But  there  are  seals  that  are  shot  at  which  eseape? 
.\nd  I  suppose  seals  are  I'requentl.v  wounded  and  K»'t  away? 
A. — It  depends  a  pood  deal  on  the  weather,  1  believe. 

Q. — You  can  answer  that  (piestion.  Is  it  frequent  or  not? 
A. — In  some  cases  I  can't  say. 

(}. — Then  it  is  sometimes  frecjuent  and  sometimes  not?  A. 
— rertainly. 

Q. — What  bo;it  were  you  on  in  the  year  1889?  A.— I  was 
in  (he  "Annie  C.  Moore." 

Q. — What  boat  were  you  on  in  the  year  1800?  A.— I  was 
in  the  "Triumph." 

Q. — Do  you  r'emember  the  total  catch  of  th<>  "Triumph"  in 
ISOO  in  Rehrinsj  Sea?  A.— Retween  four  and  tive  hundred, 
1  believe. 

Q. — What  wa.'*  the  tonnajre  of  the  "Annie  C.  Moore"  that 
you  were  on  In  1800?      A. — I  don't  know  exactly,  over  tOO. 

Q. — About  \2~,  ton.s.  is  she  not?  A. — No,  I  don't  think  she 
is  that  much. 

Q. — How  many  boats  did  she  larry  in  1889?  A. — Six  boats 
and  a  stern  Itoat. 

Q. — ITow'Iony;  was  she  in  the  Sea?  A. — I  think  we  entered 
the  Sea  on  the  7lh  of  July. 

Q. — And  left  when?  A. — It  must  have  been  between  the 
20th  and  L'Hth  '«f  August. 

Q. — When  did  you  lower  last  in  tlie  Sea  that  year?  A. — If 
I  remember  rijjht,  the  17lh  of  Atiffust. 

Q. — You  wer(>  not  warned  o\it  in  1889?       A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — No  vessels  sjtoke  yon  and  told  you  that  seizures  were 
beinp  made  and  drove  you  out  for  that  reason?  A. — Not  that 
1  remember  of. 

Q. — In  1888  I  believe  you  were  on  the  "Annie  C.  Moore?" 
.\. — Yes.  sir.  I  was. 

Q. — What  time  did  you  }:o  into  the  Sea  that  year?  A. — I 
think  it  was  th-  20th  of  July. 

Q.— What  time  did  you  leave?  A.— About  the  20th  of 
.Xufiust,  I  believe.      I  am  not  certain  of  the  date  thouph. 

Q. — Are  you  just  fjuesslnn  at  it?  .\. — Just  what  I  can  re- 
member. 

Q. — You  have  some  memory  of  it?  \. — I  have  some  mem- 
ory of  it,  I  know  it  was  thereabouts. 

Q.— If  you  ar.>  ^juessinR  at  it.  I  do  not  care  to  have  you 
answer  it. 

Q. — I  don't  remember  the  date. 

Q. — Very  near  the  20th?  A. — It  must  have  be«'n  very  near 
I  tie  20th,  because  you  had  finished  your  sealing  season. 

Q.— What  was  the  last  you  lowered  in  1888?  A.— I  don't 
remember. 

Q.— Were  you  warned  out  in  1888?      A.— No.  sir. 

Q. — Y(Ui  lef.  .\ugust  20th  because  you  had  finished  your 
sealing  season?      .\. — I  dcm't  know  why  flie  captain  left. 

Q. — There  was  no  special  reason  why  yon  left  tliat  yeai'. 
was  there?      A.— I  liad  nothing  to  do  with  that  part. 

know   whether  there   was  anv   special   reason   or 


Q- 


not ; 


.\. — I  ilon't  know  anvthing  about  it. 


Q. — Was  it  good  weather  wheii.you  left?  .\. — Nc'arly  calm 
for  two  days  before  we  got  out  through  the  I'ass.  and  nearly 
lalin  for  another  day. 

Q. — Then  a  breeze  s]M'ang  ujt  and  you  came  out?      A. — Yes, 

sir. 

ii- — Had  you  any  bad  weather  just  before  the  calm?  A.— 
Not  that  I  remember  of. 


% 


; ;  1 

!■. 

'lil'lim 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


Go 


624 

(Ei-iile  liuiuluM — Cross — lle-dii'oct.) 

Q. — How  many  boats  did  the  "Annie  C.  Moore"  have  in  the 
Sea  in  the  year  1888?      A.— Six. 

Q. — How  large  a  crew,  do  you  remember?  A. — Well,  it 
would  be  three  men  to  a  boat,  captain  and  cook  and  mak' 
and  a  spare  hand. 

Q. — About  2:1  men  that  trip?      A. — I  suppose  about  tliat? 

Q. — Do  you  remember  how  many  skins  the  "Annie  C. 
Moore"  took  in  Hehring  Sea  in  tlie  year  1888?  A. — Some- 
where about  700,  a  few  over,  I  believe. 

Q. — 715  was  it  not?      A. — Something  like  that. 

Q. — Had  white  hunters  in  1888?  And  in  these  other  years 
when  you  were  on  the  "Annie  C.  Moore?"  A. — Yes,  sir. 

Re-direct  examination  by  Sir  C.  TI.  Tupjter; 

Q. — I  think  you  said  Cai)tain  Hackett  was  captain  in  1888? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Who  in  1889?      A.— Captain  Hackt>tt. 

(J. — How  were  your  provisions  in  1888  when  you  left  the 
Sea.  Do  yon  remember  how  they  were  lasting,  had  yon  siif 
(icient  to  remain  longer?      A. — T  know  in  1888  we  were  short. 

Q. — Have  you  any  lecolk'ction  abont  the  provisions  in  1888? 
A. — I  don't  remember. 

Q. — How  was  the  sealing  in  1888?  When  you  stopped, 
were  you  making  good  catches  or  poor?  A. — I  can't  hardly 
remember. 

Q.— Can  you  in  1889?      In  1889  we  had  over  1,200. 

Q. — How  was  the  scaling  at  the  time  you  left?  A. — I  don't 
remember. 

Q. — Did  you  state  when  you  came  out  in  1800?  A. — I 
think  on  the  25t1i  of  .August. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  anything  about  the  sealing  at  that 
time?    A. — Tt  was  a  poor  year  witli  us. 

Q. — What  was  the  condition  of  the  weather?  A. — We  had 
bad  weather. 

Q. — Who  was  your  <'aptain  in  1890?     .\. — Clarence  Cox. 

Re-cross-examination  by  Mr.  Warren: 

Q. — When  1  asked  you  as  to  1889  you  did  not  remember 
that  you  were  short  of  provisions  when  you  came  out?  A. — 
I  don't  know  that  tiiat  was  the  reason. 

Q. — You  do  not  say  that  that  is  tlie  icason  for  your  coming 
out?    A. — I  don't  say  tliat  that  is  the  reason. 

Sir  C.  H.  Tapper: — My  learned  friend  does  not  understand 
that.  The  witnes.s  did  not  say  to  me  that  tht;  reason  was  tliey 
were  short  of  provisions,  but  I  asked  him  as  a  matter  of  fait 
whether  tliey  were  sliort  of  provisions. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — Tliat  is  as 
1  iMuh'rstood  it.  Of  <()urse  it  opened  to  Mr.  Warren  to  say 
fhat,  if  there  w;'n  Tliat  fact.  tli<>  witness  ouglit  to  have  known 
tiiat  it  was  a  siitlicient  reason. 

{}. — N<(W,  witness,  the  boat  was  e(|uip])ed  for  altout  that 
v(tyage,  was  slie  not?  A.— 1  don't  know;  I  had  nothing  to  do 
wi'tli  that. 

(i. — If  the  provisions  ran  out  she  must  have  been?  A. — 
I  snpjiose  so. 

il — .\nd  that  was  ab<ni(  the  usual  voyage  in  Behring  Sea? 
A.— I  was  tlierc  until  the  2."ilh  of  August;  that  was  the  long 
est  1  have  been  there  excepting  this  year. 


•Tames  Munge;  was  called  as  a  witness  in  rebuttal  on  the 
part  of  Crcat  Rrilain,  and  examined  out  of  order  by  ctmsent 
of  counsel. 


«  ■    ' 


10 


20 


40 


5e 


6o 


(Jaiuos  Mungcr — Direct.) 
Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Bodwell: 

Q. — You  live  iu  Seattle,  Mr.  MiinRer?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Came  over  this  morning  on  the  "Kosalie"?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q. — Yon  were  on  board  the;  "Oarolena"?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

(J.— In  1886?    A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — In  what  caiiacily?    A. — Well,  I  went  as  boat  steerer. 

Q. — Were  you  on  board  at  the  time  of  the  seizure?  A. — 
Yes,  sir 

Q. — During  the  whole  of  the  voyage?  A. — During  the 
whole  of  the  voyage. 

Mr.  Bodwell : — I  now  refer  to  page  .'?77  of  the  evidenc*',  be- 
ing a  part  of  the  direct  examination  of  John  Cotsford,  begin- 
ning at  liui!  1(5.  I  propose  to  read  this  evidence  to  (he  wit- 
ness and  ask  him  if  he  has  anything  to  say  about  it. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  Fnited  States: — Tliat 
is  hardly  usual,  Mr.  Bodwell;  why  not  go  on  and  t'xamine 
liim  in  the  usual  way? 

Mr.  Bodwell: — Very  well. 

(To  witness.)  Q. — Do  you  know  anything  about  the  quan- 
tity of  provisions  that  were  on  board  the  "Carolena"  shortly 
before  the  seizure? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Th«'re  is  no  testimony  of  Cotsford  on  that 
([uestion,  except  that  there  was  a  rumor  on  board  that  they 
might,  if  they  stayed,  run  short  of  provisions. 

Mr.  Bodwell : — I  propose  to  ask  him  the  question  and  then 
ask  him  if  there  was  any  rnmor. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Of 
what  consequence  is  it,  anyway? 

Mr.  Bodwell:— There  is  an  inference  to  be  drawn  from  that 
statement  of  Cotsford's  that  I  wish  to  remove. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Why 
do  you  not  simply  ask  him  if  (here  was  any  such  runu)r  and 
leave  it  there.  Mr.  Cotsford  did  not  undertake  to  state  the 
iiinount  of  provisions  on  board. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Of  course  wi-  were  careful  iu  calling  the 
witness  (Jotsford,  as  well  as  every  one  connected  willi  the 
owui'rs  of  this  ship,  tliough  we  wanted  to  get  as  full  informa- 
tion as  w«'  could  by  calling  witness<'s  both  hostile  and  fiieiid 
ly — but  we  wer<'  pretty  careful  about  being  bound  by  a  state- 
iiicnt  of  Cotsfo 'd's.  I  reuK  nil)er  distinctly  thiw  was  a  pail  of 
my  policy,  for  the  reason  tliat  he  might  have  got  hi.s  state 
inent  and  impressions  from  others. 

Mr.  Bodwell: — I  have  the  question  here,  and  1  will  read  the 
(|uesti(m  and  answer  if  your  Honours  would  like  to  hear  it : 

"ti. — Do  you  know  anything  about  wliat  the  time  Captain 
Ogilvie,  <»r  did  you  hear  anything  about  tlie  time  he  was  pre- 
paring to  leave  the  sea?  .\. — Somewhere  about  the  liOtli  or 
l.':ird  of  August,  I  believe. 

"().— Did  you  hear  that  fnnn  the  Captain?  .\.— That  is 
iiliout  the  time  it  was  understood  we  would  start  (o  go  home; 
I  tiiink  we  g«t(  "t  fr(mi  the  Ciiptain. 

"Q.— Wha(  makes  you  remember  the  tiuu-  (ha(  he  (alked  of 
leaving  (he  sea?  A. — I  suppose  on  account  of  (alkiug  years 
afterwards  about  what  time  we  started  home. 

"Did  you  hear  auythiiig  said  about  the  )uovi!-ions  on 
board?  A. — Then'  was  a  remark  passed  that  if  we  stayed  to 
that  time  we  were  liable  lo  be  short  of  provisions  going  home 

40 


iNtHlii 


.   - !' 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


626 

(Jiiiiu'H  Mungcr — Diwct.) 

— who  stui'ted  (lie  yarn  I  don't  know,  but  It  started  uboard 
by  soino  one." 

(To  witn<'8K.  Q. — WuH  tliere  any  ooniinon  rejtort  on  board 
the  ship  that  tlwi-e  was  likely  to  be  a  NhortaRe  of  provinions? 
A. — I  never  heard  any. 

(i. — .\h  a  matter  of  fact,  what  about  liie  quantity  of  jtrovi- 
sions  were  tliere  on  board? 

The  ConinilHsioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'luted  States: — Does 
that  rebut;  \v«'  oujjht  not  to  take  so  niueb  time,  Mr.  Hodwell. 
with  a  question  of  this  sort. 

Mr.  Ilodwell: — The  fact  of  the  (piantity  of  provisions  that 
we  say  was  on  board  is  a  material  fact. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — In  the  interest  of  shortening  time — if  they 
are  to  open  their  cas(>  from  time  to  tim<  in  chief  I  do  iio( 
know  where  we  are  to  land.  I  do  not  want  to  take  the  time 
no;-  fill  tlu'  record  with  rebuttal  and  sur-rebuttal.  Mr.  Mun- 
sie  is  owner  of  this  ship  and  claims  through  tlu'  IJrItish  (iov 
ernment.  lie  has  testitied  upon  the  stand  in  chief  as  to  the 
<|uantily  of  provisions  aboard,  fully  aiul  to  his  heart's  content, 
and  has  been  fully  cross-examined.  To  explain  his  reasons 
why  he  could  not  stipport  his  testimony  in  chief  he  said  he 
could  not  jret  the  other  nu'ii  that  were  on  the  shij) — named 
them  all  over — soni«'  dead  and  some  he  could  not  net,  aiul 
amoiifr  those  was  Totsford,  Russell  and  this  ntan;  ami  I  call 
your  Honours'  attenlion  to  the  fact  that  he  said  he  did  not 
know  where  Cotsford  was.  and  did  not  know  where  Hussell 
was,  and  thus  ex])lained  why  he  was  not  ct»rroborated  by 
some  one  aboard  the  ship.  Now,  when  we  find  a  man  and  jtro 
(luce  him,  then  he  ijoes  on  to  make  that  a  part  of  his  case. 
which  he  should  have  made  in  chief.  He  was  an  interesled 
wit!i(>ss.  and  presumably  men  like  this  witiu'ss  were  not  in 
fei'esfed.  He  should  have  corroborated  his  testimony  in  chief 
as  to  the  amount  of  provisions  on  board,  and  not  have  waited 
until  we  attacked  his  case,  and,  as  we  believe,  broken  it  down 
on  cross-examination.  This  evidence,  it  seems  to  us.  sMjiple- 
ments  his  main  case,  and  is  not  at  all  in  the  nature  of  re 
buftal  <'vidence. 


iji'hi 


Mr.  Hodwell: — I  submit  that  this  is  m)t  a  correct  way  (o 
put  the  matter.  In  the  first  jdace,  we  jiroved  by  vouchers 
that  there  was  a  certain  amount  of  provisions  put  on  board 
that  ship.  The  defense  s;ivs  that  cannot  be  so  because,  when 
she  landed  at  Ounal.iska,  there  was  only  n  certain  amount. 
:is  inventoried,  taken  by  fh(»  oRicer  who  w<'nt  on  board,  and 

50  then,  in  corrctboration  of  that  statement,  they  bring  the  wit 
ness  Totsford  •<•  swear  in  direct  examination  that  there  was 
a  rumor  on  board  that  the  provisions  would  run  short.  This 
witness  disprovi  s  that  rumor  as  n  fact,  and  he  also  rebuts 
the  lu-esuniptio'i  made  by  the  defense  that  then-  was  not  a 
sufricieni  quantity  of  prctvisions  on  board  by  showiii};  that 
at  the  time  of  the  seizure  the  siii)»  was  well  jM-ovisidiied. 
With  reference  to  fliis  witness  not  beinp;  here  before  I  have 
in  my  hand  a  returiu-d  dead  letter,  written  to  liini  at  Seattle. 
(tost marked  Xovemlx-r  I'itli.     I  f;oi  some  informalion  about 

^°  this  witness  and  we  sent  a  man  to  Seattle,  who  found  him 
and  broutrhl  liiu'  over.  Here  is  the  letter  and  T  will  ask  this 
Avitiu'ss  to  o|)eii  it.  I  say  that  ATr.  Afunsi<''s  statement  is 
•'xactly  correct.  He  stated  tliat  he  had  sent  for  the  witness 
and  had  not  beard  from  him,  and  (hat  is  perfectly  true. 

(To  witness.)     Q.— Wliat  is  the  date  of  that  letter?    A.-- 
(Examiniii),'.)— The  letter  is  written  on  (he  12lli  of  Xovenib.r. 
(>. — .Vddiessed  (o  you?     A. — Yes,  sir. 


10 


637 

(Jaiiu'S  Munger — I  Urcct.) 

Q._At  Seattle?    A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Yon  never  got  it?     A. — No,  sir. 

The  CfunniisHJoner  on  the  |mr(  of  Hie  I'nited  Stales: — 
What  was  this  man's  jilace  aboard  tiie  vessel? 

Mr.  Boilwoll: — lie  was  a  boat  sleerer. 

The  Comniissionor  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  Slates: — Has 
ho  ])er8onal  knowledge  of  the  nmonnt  of  jnovisions  on  board 
of  that  vessel? 

Mr.  Bodwell:— I  propose  to  show  ,voh  %vhy  he  makes  that 
statement. 

The  Commissioner  <m  the  part  of  the  United  Slates: — I 

understand  Mr.  Dickinson  to  sa.v  that  if  yon  ai>|d.v  to  fhe 

Conrt  on  the  }j;ronnd  that  you  were,  throngh  some  mistake, 

nnable  to  piocnre  the  witness  in  order,  he  do«'8  not  raise  ob- 

20  jcction. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Not  exactly,  yonr  Honour;  I  said  tlu'v  had 
taken  an  entir<'ly  dilTerent  ground.  As  to  sjetlins  the  wit- 
ness there  may  be  a  qiiestion  of  diligence.  Mr.  I'eters  arfjued 
this  point,  but  tliron';li  a  misunderstarxling  his  remarks  wer(> 
not  taken  (lown  by  iJie  reporter.  The  substance  of  them, 
however,  appear  farther  on. 

Mr.  I'eters: — I  simply  |)roduced  that  letter  in  answer  to 
ihe  snjjfjestion  of  Mi'.  Diclvinson  lliat  Mr.  Mnnsie's  statement 
that  he  could  not  >jet  the  witness  is  incorrect.  I  know  what 
is  in  the  letter;  it  was  sent  accordiu}!  to  the  best  information 
lie  had  and  was  returned  from  Ihe  dead-letter  ofli<'e.  After- 
wards we  sent  a  man  over  to  hunt  him  up,  when  we  found 
how  this  tliinpr  was  trendinp. 

Mr.  Bodwell:  (To  witness,)  Q. — Do  yon  know  anything 
about  the  state  <if  the  jjrovisions  on  bpard  the  "Carolena," 
just  about  the  time  of  the  seizure  and  speaking  of  the  period 
before  the  seizure. 


30 


40 


(Objected  to  T»y  Mr.  Dickinson.) 

Mr.  Bodwell:— I  think  it  has  been  ruled  that  this  question 
could  be  asked. 


50 


60 


Mr.  Dickinson; — Not  yet. 

The  Commissioner  on  tlie  part  of  the  Fnitcd  States: — The 
Commissioners  agree,  Mr.  Bodwell,  that  you  must  limit  your 
rebuttal  to  the  time  wlien  your  inventory  was  takt>n. 

The  Commissioner  on  Ihe  part  of  Her  Majesty: — I  do  not 
think  that  in  nbuttal  you  can  go  into  tlie  (|nestion  as  to 
whether  or  not  there  were  provisions  on  board.  It  would 
have  been  another  thing  if  you  liad  sought  to  get  the  evidence 
in  on  the  ground  that  you  had  tried  to  get  the  witness  and 
could  not  get  him.  but  I  understand  that  ground  of  otTering  it 
is  expressly  withdrawn. 

Mr.  Bodwell: — Do  1  understand  your  Honour  to  say  this: 
That  we  having  proved  a  (|iiantity  of  pnnisions  on  board  Ihe 
ship,  the  defence  having  given  evidence  that  :it  ii  certain  lime 
in  tlie  voy;  <,'e  there  was  not  a  large  (|uaiitily  of  provisicuis  on 
board— tile  inference  being  that  if  tlieir  case  is  true  ours  Is 
incorrect — that  we  are  not  allowed  in  rebuttal  to  prove  lliat, 
at  the  tinu'  of  which  we  speak,  I  hi'  ship  was  well  provisioned? 

The  rommissioner  on  Ihe  part  of  Her  Majesty :— Col sford 
does  not  sjieak  as  a  mailer  of  fact,  as  to  whether  there  were 
provisions. 


Tm 


V'l 


■lll'll> 


13 


I    I 


20 


30 


40 


50 


Co 


638 

(JiiiiU'H  Miiii^c-i- — I >irt'»t.) 

Mr.  Pftei'B:— CotHford  in  not  the  only  witiu'SH,  biMiiuse  tliey 
also  biinv;  in  the  wifiu'SK  Iliiynor.  who  tostifiwl  that  he  only 
saw  on  board  Hie  ship  a  certain  uunibcr  of  boxes  of  bis  uit 
and  a  few  bags  of  tlonr. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty:— How  long 
before  yonr  vessel  was  at  Ounalaska  does  your  question  now 
relate  to?  You  eaii  ask  as  to  the  quantity  of  provisions  on 
board  the  vessel  at  Ounalaska.  but.  as  I  understand  it,  you 
are  askinjr  as  to  the  (]uantity  of  jirovisions  on  board  at  the 
time  of  which  t'otsford  was  speakiiif;. 

Mr.  Hodwell: — No,  the  question  1  put,  your  Honour,  was 
this:  "Just  alioiit  the  time  of  the  seizure,  and  limiting  your 
reply  to  a  date  before  the  seizure,  what  was  the  quantity  of 
provisions  on  board  the  ship?" 

Mr.  Dickinson: — ('an  they  prove,  if  your  Honour  will  bear 
with  me  a  moment,  in  relmttal,  the  amount  of  jirovisions  (»ii 
l»oard  (he  ship  at  Ounalaska.  It  is  a  pait  of  their  case  to 
show  the  property  seized,  and  of  course  the  gist  of  the  in- 
quiry is  the  amount  that  was  seized.  They  in  chief  show 
that  the  United  States  took  in  the  seizure  such  a  quantity  of 
jtrovisions  Tiny  put  in  their  testimony  in  chief  to  satisfy 
the  minds  of  the  (Commissioners  that  the  I'nited  States  seized 
that  quantity  of  i»rovisions.  We  meet  it  l>y  the  testimony  of 
Mr.  Raynor — Mr.  Uaynor  being  present  at  the  time  and  place 
of  taking  tlie  inventory — that  tliere  was  only  such  and  such 
quantity  of  provisions  seized.  Now,  can  it  lie  true,  tliat  tliey 
can,  after  pnttnig  in  their  testimony  in  chief  on  the  direct 
issue,  come  in  again  and  rebut  l)y  saying  tliat  notwithstand 
ing  we  put  in  the  i)roof  of  what  was  there,  tlien  we  will  cor- 
roborate our  testimony  in  chief  by  showing  the  amount  of 
provisions  on  lioard  at  tlie  time,  not  in  contradiction  of  Mr. 
Hi  vnor,  that  they  could  say  that  Mr.  Raynor  was  not  present 
when  the  inventory  wjis  taken,  that  would  be  rebuttal;  but  it 
ii-.  not  rebuttal  to  call  the  witness  upon  the  same  point  that 
they  could  liave  made  in  chief  as  to  the  (piantity  of  provisions 
without  referen((>  to  Raynor  or  any  other  witness  that  we 
called. 

Mr.  I'eters: — We  differ  on  tliis  very  materially.  I  submit 
that  the  contention  that  my  learned  friend  has  pressed  upon 
the  (Annmissioii  really  amounts  to  this:  That  we  may  be  al- 
lowed to  rebut  (crtaiii  facts.  Itut  we  may  not  be  allowed  to 
rel»ut  the  alleged  ca.se  made  l»y  the  defence.  Now,  what  is 
the  ca.se.  Our  <  ase  was  that  we  put  on  board  at  Victoria  a 
certain  amount  of  goods,  and  as  the  ship  went  to  Hehring 
Sea  and  afterwaids  was  seiztd,  we  asked  you  to  assume  that 
a  very  large  proportion  of  those  goods  remained  on  board  that 
ship  when  she  got  to  Ounalaska.  I'ut  how  do  tliey  assume  to 
meet  that  case.'  Tiicy  assume  to  meet  it  l>y  throwing  out 
suggestions  that  something  must  have  happened  lietweeii 
times,  thereby  ussiiniing  'liat  in  some  other  way,  either  by 
trading  or  in  some  otlier  way,  those  goods  were  taken  from 
the  ship  and  were  not  on  Iward  of  her  when  she  w^ns  seized 
and  taken  to  Ounalaska.  How  do  they  attempt  to  su]tport 
that?  They  alteinj)!  to  do  so  by  a  witness  named  Raynor 
and  a  witness  named  fotsford,  and  the  cross-examination  of 
our  witnesses,  showing  thi't  Mnnsie  had  a  trading  post.  They 
bring  in  Cotsford  as  one  witness,  and  they  say  what  Cotsford 
says,  that  at  a  c<'rtaiii  tiiiK  on  that  voyage  there  was  a  rumor 
e.xistant  on  th"  ship  that  (he  iirovisions  were  short.  Now, 
wliat  does  my  learned  fri<  iid  say?  He  says  you  can  rebut 
that  by  simply  showing  by  another  witness  that  this  rumor 
did  not  e.xist,  aiid.  as  I  said  before,  how  do's  lliat  leave  voii? 
With  witness  \  saying  tlie  rumor  existed  and  witness  H  say- 


10 


029 

(•laiii'-M  Muiigur — DiHtuHsiuu.) 

iii^  the  rumor  <U«1  not  i-xiHt.  It  kvivoH  you  jUHt  na  \i\y  loiinod 
friend  sajH  ,vou  arc  h-ft  by  aitidiivUK  of  thu  UritiHh 
and  Anu-ricau  LiiHi>.  oil"  affidavit  8lio\viii<{  one  tiling  and 
another  nffldnvit  HhowiuK  another.  Wliat  are  you  to  do  in 
a  case  of  tliat  liind?  Surely,  anytliiiifj  wliicli  will  ten<l  to 
Khow  tliat  the  statement  of  one  witness  was  more  probable 
than  the  statement  of  the  other  witness  is  admissible.  We 
are  not  bound  to  the  mere  contradiction  of  the  words  that  the 
witness  said,  or  the  existence  of  a  rumor  which  the  witness 
said,  but  we  can  pive  evidence,  I  submit,  which  goes  to  show 
that  the  contention  of  our  witness  is  the  most  jirobabh'  con- 
tenti(m,  and  to  lebut,  not  mer«'ly  tlie  statement  that  witness 
made,  but  the  whole  case  that  the  defence  on  that  point  has 
made. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  jtart  of  the  United  Slates: — They 
do  not  make  the  case.  You  make  it,  in  two  ways.  In  the 
first  place  you  nuike  the  case  for  certain  purjioscs  i,A  to  the 
20  amount  of  supplies  taken  aboard  at  Victoria,  but  your  ju'in- 
( ijtal  case  is  for  (he  amount  of  supplies  that  were  seized,  your 
claim  against  the  United  States  for  th«'  provisions  seized. 

Mr.  Peters: — We  never  for  a  moment  admitted  that  that 
inventory  was  correct,  and  we  propose  to  provt-  that  it  was 
not  correct. 

-Mr.  Peters: — Hut  we  contend  this:  Peing  unable  to  give 
exact  e.idence  of  the  amount  of  provisions  on  Ixtard  that 
ship,  we  had  to  do  the  best  we  could;  we  had  to  prove  as  to 
^  the  amount  of  provisions  she  had  on  board  originally,  leaviuK 
the  Court  to  coiue  to  the  presumption  that  a  ceiiain  amount 
of  ]»rovisions  remained  on  board  at  tlu'  lime  of  the  seizure. 

.Mr.  Dickinson: — I  desiie  to  ask  my  li-arned  friend  this 
question:  Whether,  after  this  ti'stimony  goes  in  on  the  point 
as  to  the  provisions  that  were  on  there  before  the  seiziire, 
you  would  consent  to  the  proposition  that  we  might  then  re- 
but that  statenunt.  which  is  a  new  statement,  by  putting  on 
another  line  of  witnesses  to  show  that  this  witness  was  in- 
40   (orrect? 

Mr.  Peters: — We  put  this  evidence  forward  and  we  feel 
that  in  doing  so  that  it  is  evidence  that  is  material.  I  do  f<'el 
that  the  way  the  matter  stands  at  the  presi-nt  our  case  re- 
(|uires  that  thi.s  part'culav  i)iece  of  evidence  should  be  allow- 
ed to  go  in  and  all  the  facts  connected  witli  it. 

The  Commissioner  on    the    part    of  Her    Majesty: — Why 
i-hotild  you  not  seek  to  get   the  testiiuony  on  the  ground  that 
.„   it  was  not  obtainable  befcu-e? 

Mr.  Peters: — 1  do  not  wisli  to  jttit  it  on  that  narrow  grotind, 
althotigh  I  would  like  to  meet  any  suggestion  made  by  the 
< Commissioners.  I  wotild  rather  ])Ut  it  in  011  the  ground  that 
this  a  fair  matter  in  rebuttal,  not  of  a  particular  statement 
but  of  their  cas*'. 

The  (."ommissi«»ner  on  th;-  part  of  Her  Majesty: — If  they 
have  given  evidence  to  show  that  provisions  have  been  put 
on  board  iinother  ship  aiul  meiinwhile  hinded  in  iinother 
place,  that  would  be  a  fact  y<»u  could  not  anticipate  in  your 
main  case,  and  yoti  might  oti  rebtittal  meet  that  new  state 
nient;  btit  when  (he  statement  is  that  yoti  had  only  a  certain 
((uantity  of  provisions  at  the  point  of  s<'iznre,  the  question 
might  be  whether  that  is  something  that  yon  could  not  reas- 
onably have  antici])at(>d  in  your  original  case,  and  whether 
you  ought  not  to  have  adduced  your  evidence  at  that  time; 
becatise  the  point  of  seizure  was  a  point  that  may  n(»t  have 


On 


•ijl'll'^i 


lO 


630 

(Jnnn'K  MiinRcr — T>iH<-nHHioii.) 

iM'on  ill  .vonr  mind,  nnd  tlio  ovirtcnco  iM'iiriiif;  <in  that  would 
Im'  cvidciifo  tliiit  yon  would  rcaHoniihly  cxpoct  you  inij^ht  be 
<iillt>d  on  to  ])rodiM>(>  uh  in  youi-  l(iiowl*'d);i>.  It  Htn-niH  to  nu>, 
just  now,  Unit  tlie  nddiiciiiK  of  tlic  ovidoiicc  l»,v  you  honriuK 
on  tlu>  quantity  of  t;<><idH  tluil  you  luid  at  the  lime  of  hHkuio 
inifjlit,  ]M'r)iap»i,  Tie  o|H-n  fairly  to  the  obm'i'vatioiiH  iiiadc  by 
Mr.  DickiiiHon.  Von  could  liavo  anticipated  it,  and  tliorcfon! 
you  ou^lit  to  have  produced  your  witnesses. 

Mr.  Peters: — Uy  no  possibility  could  we  antiitipnte  the  fact 
that  a  witness  named  Cotsford  was  coming  liere  to  start  a 
rumor  about  which  we  never  heard  until  we  came  to  court. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — And  of 
course  you  are  allowed  to  rebut  that. 

Mr.  Peters: — Am  I  to  leave  th«»  Court  in  this  {losition, 
that  one  man  sweariu;;  to  a  rumor  and  anoth(>r  man  swearing 
fliere  was  no  such  rumor,  have  I  not  the  riijlit  to  rebut  the 
presuin])tton  tliat  not  only  did  the  rumor  not  exist  but  in 
fact  there  was  no  foundation  for  it. 

Mr.  Diclvinson: — It  became  material  for  them  to  show  In 
this  main  case  that  tliey  could  have  cau^rht  a  large  number 
of  seals  after  their  seiKiire.  Now,  the  context  shows  that 
we  did  not  call  out  on  the  itoints  we  are  now  discussing  this 
talli  about  tlie  rumor,  except  as  the  method  of  tixing  it  in  tlie 
mind  of  the  witness  tlie  date  they  proposed  to  leave  the  sea. 
Cotsford  ujion  tliis  point  was  called  on  the  question  of  when 
3°  they  proposed  to  leave  the  sea,  and  he  said  on  tlu;  25111  of 
August,  or  the  «'(5tli,  as  the  case  may  be.  They  i»ut  in  the 
main  case  and  we  put  Cotsford  on.  They  show  that  they 
could  have  causjht  seals  up  to  the  1st  of  September,  as  part  of 
their  case,  and  they  claim  prolits  on  the  probable  catch. 
(Jotsford  swore  distiairtly  on  direct  examination  that  they 
proposed  to  leave  on  the  L'tlth.  We  pressed  him,  as  the  con- 
text shows,  without  knowing  what  his  answer  would  be,  to 
fasten  that  as  a  fact,  by  asking  him  what  made  him  fix  that 
date.  It  does  not  show  that  we  asked  him  what  provisions 
were  on  board.  A  d  it(>  is  so  elusive  in  the  mind  of  an  ordi- 
nary witness  that  counsel,  in  tixiiig  a  date  which  is  material, 
will  always  naturally  cjill  out  from  the  witn«'ss  how  1  ■  gels 
that  in  his  head.  It  was  a  direct  contradicti<»n  of  tl  "  case 
of  (ireat  ISritain  as  to  the  time  when  tlu'  sliii»  was  to  leave  the 
sea.  Now,  the  context  was  to  show  how  were  you  about  to 
fix  that  date  is  there  anything  in  your  mind  which  fixes  the 
date?  lie  then  volunteered  the  statement  that  there  was  a 
rumor  as  to  the  shortness  of  the  provisions. 

Mr.  Peters: — The  context  shows  that  Mr.  Dickinson  had 
asked  (luestions  as  to  tlu?  date  when  they  were  going  to  leave 
the  sea,  but  it  also  shows  that  this  question  was  brought  out 
in  anwer  to  a  direct  open  question: 

"Q. — Did  you  hear  anything  said  about  the  provisions  on 
board?  A. — There  was  a  remark  passed  that  if  we  stayed 
to  that  time  we  were  liable  to  be  short  of  ]»rovisi(ms  going 
home;  who  started  the  yarn  I  don't  know,  but  it  started 
aboard  by  some  one." 

The  whole  context  shows  that  Mr.  Dickinson  had  a  special 
statement  he  wished  to  bring  out  and  he  put  tlu?  question  in 
that  view. 

Tlu!  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Tier  Majesty: — 1  have 
already  express-'d  an  opinion  that  I  thought  that  Mr.  Peters 
had  gone  about  as  far  as  he  could  in  the  line  of  the  rumor 
that  the  witness  Cotsford  said  existed.  I  cannot  say  that  his 
Rubse(iuent  argument  has  not  to  some  extent  shaken  my 
mind.     I  am  not  sure  that  if  one  witness  says  there  was  a  ru- 


40 


50 


60 


10 


(53  r 

(•laiiifH  Miin^fi- — IMi'cct.) 

iiior  and  anotlur  Ha,vH  tlu>r(!  waH  nut,  and  tlic.v  \v*>rc  liolh  in 
way  of  knowing  wlicllicr  (lure  wan  nr  not,  if  llu'i-c  waH  a 
slali!  of  things  wlii«li  would  loiroboiat*'  tlu-  rumor,  or  prove 
it  t-ntircly  untrue,  tliat  nii;;lit  not  bt>  f^ivi  n  in  fvidfuce  in  <-«)n- 
iH'clion  witli  tlic  ciicuniNtanccH  npon  wl  irli  ilio  rumor  lui^ilit 
Ih>  conHidtMH'd  io  have  Ntarti'd,  or  \tliii  li  would  tend  to  an 
utter  denial  of  tlie  ]MmHibility  of  tlu  Hl.:!tinK  of  HUeli  n  rumor. 
I  must  Hay  that  I  feel  emtiarraHHed  to  some  extent  by  liavin^ 
expiiHsed  an  o[»inion  adverHe  to  the  view  of  Mr.  I'eterH  on 
liiat  point.  1  am  not  sure  i>ut  tlu're  is  a  (rood  deal  in  the  view 
lliat  lie  jMitH  forward,  but  until  eonfeieuce  with  my  learned 
brother  I  shall  retain  the  ojdnion  that  I  have  expressed,  and 
think  that  the  witness  has  been  asked  as  far  as  he  <an  be 
ujton  that  jioint  when  he  adduced  solely  for  the  purp(»se  of 
rebuttal. 

The  Commissioners  then  rose. 


20 


■    1  w 

I 


Hlilil 


40 


Oommissioners  under  the  Convention  of  February  8,  1896,  between 
Great  Britain  and  the  United  States  of  America. 

Ohambers  of  the  Legislative  Assembly, 

At  Victoria,  December  21, 1896. 

.lames  Munper. — Examination  of  this  witness  was  tonliu- 
ued  from  the  sittinfj  of  Saturday. 

IMrect  examination  by  Mr.  Hod  well: 

Q. — Were  any  provittiouH  transferred  fnuu  the  "Carolenu" 
Id  the  "St.  I'aulr  '      A. — Ves,  sir. 

Q.— At  Ounah.ska  before  the  "St.  J'aul  "  left  for  Sau  Fran- 
tiseo?  A. — Yes. 

y.— You  were  one  of  the  crew  who  were  sent  down  ou  1  lie 
•St.  Paul?"      A.— Yes,  sir. 

i-i.—Do  you  know  wluit  pilot  bread  is?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

(^._\VaH  any  of  that  taken  on  board  the  "St.  I'aul,"  do  you 
l<now?    A. — I  remember  there  was  some. 

Q.— How  do  you  remember  that?  A.— We  ate  a  few  when 
we  were  going  down. 

g.— Were  you  ou  board  of  the  "Caroleua"  when  she  arriv- 
(<1  at  ('layo(iuoi  on  her  way  up?    A.— Yes,  sir. 

(i.— It  has  been  stated  that  Mr.  Bechtel  was  on  board  at 
liie  time  she  went  up— is  that  correct?  A.— Yes,  he  went 
up  with  us. 

(i.— Did  yau  hear  him  give  any  orders  or  directions  on  the 
wav  up  or  after  the  vessel  arrived  at  Clayoquot,  or  while  you 
slaved  there,  with  reference  to  the  vessel,  her  voyage,  or  any 
woik  that  was  done  about  tlu'  vessel,  or  in  refereiic  to  the 
ciiuoes  while  vou  were  at  Clayoquot?      A. — No,  sir. 


60 


Q.— Do  you  renuMuber  seeing  any  canoes 


A. — Yes,  sir. 


Q._When  you  first  arrived?  A.— When  I  first  got  ashore 
lliey  were  there. 

ii — Where  were  they?      A. — On  the  bank. 

Q. — Did  you  see  auything  done  with  reference  to  the  can- 
noes  while  you  were  there?      A. — Y'es. 

Q. — What  was  done?  A. — They  put  ribs  into  them,  be- 
cause white  men  were  going  into  them,  and  they  wanted  to 
make  them  staunch. 

Q.— AVho  was  in  charge  of  that  work?      A.— Ed.  Shields. 

Q. — Did  Mr.  Uechtel  liave  anything  to  do  with  it  or  give 
any  orders  about  it. 


f 


■lilM,!!) 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


Go 


632 

(JiimoR  MiiiipT — I  Hrt'ct — Crosu.) 

Mr.  DickiiiHoif— I  (tlijccf  to  llial  qnt'tHion. 

Mr.  Hudwcll: — Very  woll.      (To  witncHH.) 

Q. — How  loiij;  di<l  Mr.  It<>ihti>l  stii,v  tluTi',  do  joii  know? 
A. — I  can't  tell;  1  don't  know,  lie  went  away  to  nonie  place, 
I  know. 

CroHM-cxauiiuation  by  Mr.  Dickinson: 

Q.— Where  were  you  born?      A.— Australia;  nt  Hydney. 

Q.— What  1h  your  aj^e?      A.— Thirty  years  in  May. 

Q.— Next  May?      A.— Yes. 

Q.— WIk'H  di>l  you  couu'  to  Victoria?      A.— 1  do  not  know. 

<i- — Vou  wt're  here  in  ISHfi?      A. —  VeH,  sir. 

Q.— Did  you  ever  go  HealiuR  before  IHXH      A  —No,  sir. 

<i.— Do  you  know  how  many  yearn  you  had  been  in  Victoria 
in  1H8(J?      A.— I  cant'  tell  you  that. 

Q-— Vou  cannot  tell  exactly,  you  any;  can  you  tell  about? 
A. — I  was  two  yearH  old  wlien  I  canu'  to  Mail  Francim-o. 

(J.— I  am  askiuK  about  Victoria.  Conflnt>  yourHelf  to  an 
Kwering  my  (|u<'Htion  if  you  can.  How  long  had  you  been 
in  Victoria  in  l.s««  when  you  went  on  the  "Carolena'Z"  A.— 
Twelve  or  fifteen  years. 

Q. — What  was  your  business  before  you  went  on  the  "Caro 
lena?"      A. — I  was  an  iron  moulder." 

Q.— Is  that  riRht  now?  A.— That  is  ripht;  I  was  an  iron 
and  brass  moulder. 

Q. — Were  you  not  keeping  a  bar  in  this  town?  A. — Not 
before  that. 

Q. — Not  before  you  went  on  the  "Carolena?"      A. — No. 

Q. — .\nd  you  never  had  been  sailing;  before?      A. — No. 

Q. — Wlu're  were  you  an  iron  and  brass  moulder?  A. — 
The  .Albion  Iron  Works. 

Q. — Who  «'niploved  you?      A. — A  man  named  Spratt. 

Q.— Where  is  lie?      A.— Oe  is  d«'ad. 

Q. — Did  any  one  else  ever  employ  you  as  a  moulder  lu're? 
A. — Y«'s,  th«'  company  after  that. 

Q. — Who  is  tlie  manager  of  tlie  company  that  employ<'d 
you?      A. — I  think  ISulIen  was  the  manager. 

Q. — Who  emjdoyed  you?      A. — A  man  named  Demniick. 

(J. — You  never  had  been  to  sea  before  except  wlien  yon 
came  from  Au.stralia;  you  had  never  been  before  you  went 
on  the  "Oarolena?"      A.— No. 

Q. — What  led  you  to  ro  on  board  the  "Carolena?"  A.— 
For  my  health. 

Q. — Who  employed  you  to  go  on  the  "Carolena?"  A. — 
Mr.  Munsie. 

Q. — Who  spoke  to  you  about  going  on  the  "Carolena"?  A. 
— Mr.  Munsie. 

Q. — .\ny  one  else?       A. — No. 

Q. — Did  you  have  any  relatives  in  Victoria?  A. — Lots  of 
them. 

Q. — .\re  you  n  mairfed  man?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Who*  is  your  wife?  A.— Captain  Campbell's  daugh- 
ter. 

Q. — Yon  have  a  sist(>r  here?      .\. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Whom  did  she  mariv?      A. — Mr.  Be<htel. 

Q.— A.  .1.  Hechtel  or  .T.  A.  TJechtd?  A.— J.  A.  Hechtel  or 
A.  J.   Hechtel. 

Q. — .\nd  you  are  not  quite  positive  who  your  sister  mar- 
ried?     .\. — Yes  I  am. 

Q.— Well  who  was  it?  A. — Andrew  J.  Hechtel,  Andrew 
Rechtel  or  J.  A.  Hechtel. 

Q. — When  did  he  marry  your  sister?  A. — About  eighteen 
y«'ars  ago. 


^'33 
(.IiiiiH'H  Miiii(!ri' — ('i(m«.) 

(i.— You  !m<l  iiothiiiK  t"  do  with  lioclilcl  iilioiit  mtiun  on 
tliiH  vcMHcl?  A. —  No. 

Q. — lit"  iM'Vcr  spokf  to  you  about  It?  A.— No;  I  told  him 
I  wiiH  K"i>>K- 

(/.— WhiH'  <li(l  you  tell  him?  A.— 1  think  It  wiih  on  the 
Htrt'ct  or  near  Mn'  liott-l. 

Q. — Did  Im'  tfll  you  tlmt  he  wuh  t?olnp  too?      A. — I  don't 
know  about  that. 
"       Q.— You  did  not  I-.now  tliat  Ucchtcl  wmh  Roinjr  until  you 
wi'Ut  on  the  Hliip?       .\. — \ot  until  tin-  day  w»'  went  down. 

(J. — How  did  Mr.  MunHii-  tind  out  that  you  wanted  to  no 
on  the  Hhip  for  ^our  health?  A.— I  told  him  I  would  like  to 
^o  sealing. 

(i. — You  went  and  told  that  to  Mr.  MuuHie?      A. — YeH,  sir. 

(l. — And  you  never  Hjioke  to  your  brother  in  law  altout 
yctur  deHire  to  no  Healing?       A. — No. 

Q. — Were  you  fre<|uently  at  hiw  houMe  to  Hee  your  BiHter? 
2j^   A. — Not  frequently. 

Q. — Are  you  on  nood  terniH  with  your  brothepin  law  and 
your  Kister?       A. — YeH,  sir. 

(i. — Yet  you  never  nienlion«-d  the  fnet  to  Iteehtel  that  you 
would  like  to  \to  Healing  for  your  health?      A. — Never. 

Q. — Nor  to  your  siHter.  nor  to  your  brother-in-law?  A. — 
No. 

Q. — Y'ou  are  keeping  a  bar  now?  A. — I  am  working  for 
a  Halary. 

Q. — AuHwer  my  question.       You  are  tending  a  bar  over 
jo   in  Heattle?      A.— Ych. 

Q.— In  what  plaee?      A.— The  Sartoria  (\nnpany. 

Q.— Is  it  a  saloon?      A.— It  is;  wholesale  and  retail. 

Q.— And  a  bar  in  it?      A.— Yes. 

y.— A  retail  bar?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — And  you  attend  to  the  retail  bar?  A. — Yes. 

Q. — Did  you  ever  attend  bar  for  your  brother-in-law?  . — 
I  did. 

ti. — ^Vhen?       A. — Seven  or  eight  years  ago. 

(.1. — That  is  since  you  came  back  from  the  "(^arolena"  trip? 
4°  A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  never  went  on  a  sealing  trip  again?      A. — No. 

Q. — Nor  sailing  in  any  capacity?      A. — No. 

Q. — And  you  kept  bar  for  Hechtel  at  the  old  Colonial? 
A.— No. 

(i.— ^Vhen'  then?       A.— The  Delmonico. 

(2.— What  sort  of  a  place?  is  that?  A.— Tt  was  at  that  time 
a  niw  place. 

ii. — Is  it  still  running?       .\. — I  think  so;  I  have  not  been 

-o  '"• 

^        ti. — You  said  it  was  "at  the  time  a  nice  place,"  do  yon 

mean  by  that  it  is  a  little  olf  color  now?  A. — I  do  not  know. 

Q. — What  sort  of  a  pla<-e  was  it?  Was  it  a  hotel?  A. — 
An  hotel  and  bar. 

Q. — And  how  manv  rooms  in  that  hotel?  A. — About  40. 
I  think. 

Q. — Whereabouts  was  tliat  place?  A. — It  was  on  Oovern- 
nient  street. 

ii. — Did  you  keep  a  bar  anywhere  else  in  this  town?      A. — 

ti.— Where?      A.— (iarrick's  Head. 

(i. — Who  was  the  owner?      A. — A  man  named  Spencer. 

Q. — ^Vllen  did  you  go  to  Seattle?  A. — .\bout  tliret^  and 
a  lialf  years  ago. 

.Q. — Did  yon  lose  your  place?      \. — No. 

Q. — TTow  did  you  come  to  leave  your  brother-in-law?  A. — 
F  thought  I  could  do  better.  I  took  a  rest  at  that  time;  he 
was  about  to  sell  out,  and  I  had  another  offer. 


i^^^^^^^^^l 

'.'  f  i 

^^^^^^^^^'  •' 

;!' 

'-If 

I 


634 


(.liiiii(>8  .Muii);cr — Cioss.) 
Q. — Wlu'i't'  Will'  yo\\  when  ^011   went   U>  Scnltk-?     -V, — No 


plai't 


(i.— You  were  doiiif;  nolliiiiK?       A. — No. 

Q. — When  you  wor*-  idle  did  yon  sec  luufli  of  jioiir  sister 


and  vonr  brol her  in-law? 


-No,  nol  verv  niueh. 


Q. — I  thiiiiv  vou  said  thai  vou  liad  a  iarjje  uuuilier  of  reia- 


lives  here.? 


-Yes,  sir. 


10 


(i.— Did  .von  see  nuieh  of  Mr.  Munsie?       A. — No.  sir. 

(i.— Was  he  in   voiii-  place  sonielinies?       A. — No. 

Q. — He  never  came  in  to  tall\  to  vou  about  tliis  case?    A. — 


Q. — And  did  not   lallv  to  .von  about   it  before  .vou   went   to 


Seattle?     A.— \« 


Seatth'? 


-I   supj) 


.vour  faniilv  liere  Jvuew  wliere  vou  were  in 


-I  din't  tell  anvone  I 


was  noniff. 


Q. — Your  wife  and  relatives  knew  where  .vou  were?     A.— 
Yes,  sir. 
20       (2. — And  cver.vone  of  .vonr  intimate  friends  and   relatives 


knew  where  .vou  were? 
it. 


-Yes,  there  was  no  secret  about 


(i. — Did  an.vone  see  .vou  about  coiniuf;  over  here 


iM((i|^ 


Q.— Prior  to  this  last   week?       A.— On   Frida.v. 


Q.— HefoH'  that' 
was  a  man  over  there. 
Q. — When?       A. — About   ei^l't   da.vs  ajjo. 
().— Did  he  claim  to  be  from  Mr.  Munsie? 
30       ()._ 


I  will  take  that   back,  ther 


-Yes,  si  I 


Q. — And   then  another  man   came  over   to  ,vou    (his    last 


week^ 


A.— Yes. 


il. — Do  yon  know  the  name  of  the  man  who  came  ever  to 


you  the  first  time?       A. — Yes. 

(i. — Did  he  have  any  dilliculty  in  tlndin^j;  you": 
tie  bit;  not  much. 

Q. — Everyone  knew  where  you  wer<'?  .V. 
easilv  find  out. 


-Th 


A  lit 


•uld 


Q. — Your  family  knew  your  address  in  Seattle?      A. — Oh, 


40 


ves. 


(2.— And  Mr  .Itechtel  knew  if 


A.— Yes. 


Q. — AVas  there  anythini'  said  to  y(»u  by  the  man  who  cami- 
over  to  you  eiu;ht  f'ii.V'i  ajjo  abotit  ^r.  Ueclitel  beiuji'  on  the 
"Carolena"  when  she  sailed?       A. — No. 

Q    --Xothiiifi   was  said  about    it?     A. — No. 

Q. — Did  anyone  oaue  to  see  you  abeut  this  case  before  the 
nmn  who  was  thei-e  eifjlif  days  ap)?      \. — No. 

(i.— Had  he  any  talk  with  y<ni  about  it?       A.— No. 

(i. — Not   before — you  are  clear  about    that? 


-Not   hi 


50    fore, 


Q. — Did  you  evei'   talk   to  anyone  of    .Mr.    Munsie    befon 


that?     A.— -No,  sir. 

ii. — Did  vou  ever  talk  to  .Mr.  .Munsie  about  the  ci 
A.— No. 


It  all; 


(i.— Not   about    h 


-No. 


60 


Q. — .\nd  not  abcnir  the  "Cai-olena"  beinji  seized?     A. — No. 

(j. — You  wer-'  in  ills  ein])loy  after  you  came  back  from  the 
"f'arolena" — when  Ire  •'«  •aioli'iia"  was  s<'i/,ed  you  came  back 
here  an  dweiit  into  his  employ  as  bar  keejx'r?  A.-  Not  Mr. 
.Miinsie's.  Mr.   Itechtcrs. 


(i.— Did  you  ever  lalk  to  IJechtel  .ibout   it? 


The  onlv 


thinn  I  said  to  him  >\as  that  I  would  like  to  }j;et  some  moiie.v 


of  I 


Ilia. 


(J.— You  said  that  to  Meclitrr. 


A.— N. 


(i. — Who  (lid  yon  s  ly  it  to.  then?      \. —  It  niiulil  have  been 
Munsie.       There  wire  two  or  three  present  at   the  time, 
(i.-   What   two  or  three?       .\. — Cariie  and  Munsie. 


(.Iniiu's   MniifitT — CrosK.) 

(i. — Wiis  i(  ill  llio  bill-  room?  A.— I  don't  know  wlu'tlu'i' 
it  Wiis  ill  tlic  hill"  room  or  not.  it  wiis  ten  ywirs  ii^o. 

(^. — t'jiriu",  Miiiisic  iiiul  Ufclitt'i  were  IIiimv?  A. —  No,  I 
don't  tliinii  IJcclitfl  wiis  tlicro. 

Q. — It  is  ii  little  bit  Imi^or  tliiin  ten  yciirs,  it  is  nt'iirl.v 
flcvfii   vciirs'/       A. — Soiiifwlicro  about    tliiit. 

Q. — Your  iitlcntion  wiis  never  ciilied  to  tlie  niiiller  except 
vou  siiid  .von  would  like  to  ^I't  soiii(>  money  out  of  it — is  tliiit 
'"    lifilif?      A.— At  tliiit  time  1  siiid  lh;it. 

g.— Wliiit    time?       A.— AbonI    ten   years  a};o. 
Q. — Then   yon   have  not    liiid   your  attention   ciilled   to  tlu' 
iiiiitter,  or  to  iiiiy  of  the  details  of  it   for  about   ten  or  eleven 
veiirs?       A.— Thiit  is  rij^lit ;  he  said  i*   would  be  settled  some 
day. 

Q.— Who  Siiid  that?       A.— Miinsie. 

{]. — Wiis  IJeehtel   present?       A. —  lie  niifjhl   liavt;  been  Tint 
1  Wiis  not  talking  to  lii^t   iboiit  it. 
20       Q. — Vou  iire  very  posii ive  (Jiat   Ueehtel  Wiis  not  tiilkinj;  to 
.Mniisii'  iiboiit  it?       A. — Xo.  sir. 

iy — Yon  did  not  heiir  tlnit  Heehtel  was  eliiimed  to  liiive 
iM'cn  piirt  owner  with  Miinsie  in  the  "('iirolenn?"  .\. —  1 
never  lieiird  tliiit. 

Q. — Von  nevi'r  liciird  tlnit  since  the  seizure  of  the  "Caro- 
leiiii?       \. — No,  I  never  heiird  it. 

t^. — You    never   heai-d   of  anv   intiiuiition     to    tluit     elTect? 
A.— No. 
ly — .\nd  y(ni  did  not   know  until  you  ciime  here,  iiiul  you 
30   have  not   heard  it  yet?       A.— No. 

(i. — Never?        A. — Never    lieiird    il. 

(i.— Did  yon  know  tliiit  Mechtel  liiid  iiiiy  inortRiijie  on  the 
"Caroleiiii?"       .\. —  No,  1  never  hi  iiril   that. 

(i.— ^'oii  did  not  know  thiit  your  brother  iiihiw  had  ti  moit 
>;ii};e?       A. — I   nevei-  heiird   of  it.        I   did   not    know,   iioi"  do 
not  know. 
iy — Nor  iiny  interest  in  her?       A. — No. 

(i. — Vou  never  had  the  slifihtest  ideii  thiit  Ueehtel  hiid  the 
,,)  slifjlitest  interest   in  the  "Ciiioleiia?"       .\. — No. 
Q. — Or  in  her  voyii^c?       .\. — No. 

(i. — Your  attention  never  hiiviiifj;  been  ciiUed  to  it  before, 
what  iiiiikes  yon  j'l'inembei'  that  there  wiis  iiny  report  iiboiil 
ip'e  provisions  on  the  "Ciii'olena"  just  before  she  wils  seized? 
V(  I  remember  tliiil?  .\.  I  remember  that  they  said  tliiil 
I  hey  wanted  to  \io  home  iiboiit  the  end  of  the  montli  on  iic 
count  of  the  weatlier,  iind  (hiil  the  vessel  was  not  iiny  too 
l)i},'.  and  they  siiid  they  would  no  home  on  iiciouiit  of  the 
weiillier. 
ill       Q- — About  the  end  of  the  nioiith?       .\. — Yes. 

(i. — Vou  remember  that  convi-siition?  .\. — The  captain 
Inid   nie   Ihiit. 

(i.  -'ren  or  eleven  years  iijjo  the  mailer  of  meat  ioaiiij;  I  lie 
IH'oviNions  wiiK  not  a  ])iirli(ul!irlv  innHirlaiil  matter  to  vou? 
A.— No. 

Q. — You  hill]  no  fear  Ihil  the  provisions  wei'e  short?  A. — I 
know  that   there  wiis  ii  whole  lot  of  provisions. 

<i. — The  ship  Wiis  full  of  provisions?       .V.      Ves,  we  could 
liai'dly  j>-et  around  on  iiccount  of  (liein. 
''"        iy — She  Wiis  so  full   of  ]>rovisions  that    voii   could   not    ncl 
iironnd?       A. — \r>t. 

(^ — The  provisions  were  piled  up  on  every  side  when  you 
went  into  the  liold?       .\.— Ves. 

(y — There  were  p:reat  (|niiiitities  of  pilot  bread  iind  biirri'ls 
of  pork  and  biiirels  of  siip;ar  -e\eiythinir  included  in  the 
provisions?       A. — liits  of  food. 

(i-  -So  thiit  you  were  niitnriilly  imiiressed  when  yon  heiird 
last  Saturday  iliat   lliere  wiis  ii  rumor  thai   it  had  been  testi 


(.Tniiu'8  Mil ,i}?«'r — Ciosk.) 

fii'd  lo  ihiil  tli«'3'  wt'iv  short  jf  ])n)\  isions,  au«l  .your  niintl  ri' 
vi'itt'd  to  ten  or  clcvou  year i  a}?o  wliou  you  wi-re  on  the  Hliiii. 
and  you  rt'nu'UiluTod  Ihaf  thcro  was  no  tonvi'i-sation  al)oui 
that?  A. — No  converMatiiM  about  tbt-  provisions  bcinfj;  short. 

y. — Did  you  ever  hi-ai  an.\ thing  said  about  the  provisions 
bciuj^  abundant?      A.—  When  lliey  started  otit? 

Q. — No,  wlien  ilie»   were  in  the  Sea?      A. — Well,  no;  t litre 
lo   was  always  lots;  '  always  had  lots  to  eat. 

ti. — You  neve-  heard  anything  at  all  about  there  being  lots 
of  provisions  <,n  board  A. — No,  1  knew  that  there  were  lots 
of  provisions. 

Q. — At  this  time  when  you  were  in  I5eiiriiig  Sea,  when 
tlu'i'e  was  a  n'luark  about  the  provisions  being  siioii,  did  you 
ever  hear  about  the  provisions  being  abundant?  A. — Tlie 
matter  never  earne  up. 

Q. — I*o  you  remember  any  otlu'r  conversation  held  on  any 
other  subject   within  a  week  before  you  were  seized?       \.-- 
20   About  going  home,  yes. 

Q. — That  is  all  you  heard?  A. — Yes,  about  going  home 
at  the  end  of  the  month  on  account  of  the  weatlier. 

Q. — Who  did  you  liear  talking  about  that?  A. — Caplain 
Ogilvie. 

(I. — Did  you  hear  any  of  the  crew  speak  about  that  besides 
the  captain?      A. — The  mate. 

Q. — Did  any  of  tlie  men — hunters  oi'  steerers — spealc  of  i(? 
A. — My  liunter  talked  of  it  to  me. 

Q. — You  remend)er  that — you  reniembei'  that  your  panic 
30   ular  liunter  talked  to  you  about  uoing  liome?      A. — Y>> 

Q. — What  did  he  say?  A. — lie  said  that  tlie  vcsmI  \\i\f 
not  any  too  big,  and  tliat  we  had  better  start  home  abo.t'  ilic 
end  of  the  month 

Q. — Will  you  swear  whether  they  said  "about  the  end  of 
the  month"  or   •JDth  August?"      .\.— No. 

Q. — You  could  not  say  which?  \. — No;  not  as  to  iIh 
date. 

Q. — It  might  have  been  that  they  said  that  they  were  going 
about  the  2t)th?       A.— I  do  not  know. 
40       Q. — Where  weie  you  when  the  provisions  were  taken  oil 
the  "Caroleiia"  to  go  on  board  tli<'    St.  Paul?"      A.— I  w;is 
on  the  dock. 

Q.— Where  was  tlte  "Oarolena?"  A.— She  was  laying  olV 
a  few  hundred  yards. 

Q. — And  you  had  come  ashore  about  how  long  before  tiial' 
A. — dust  before  she  sailed. 

Q._Just  before  the  "SI.  I'aul'  sailed  you  liad  been  on 
board  the  "t^aroiena?"      A. — \'es. 

Q.— You  had  gone  ashore  from  the  "Caroleiia"  just  before 
5°     the  "St.  Taul"  sailed'.'       .\.— Yes. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  tliat  dale?      A. — No. 

Q. — Who  tool:  tlios,"  provisions  olT  the  "l.'arolena?"  \  — 
I  do  not  kiK'rt 

Q._You  did  not  hein  anv  one  say  anything  about  it?  A.— 
The  bovs  said  I  hey  put  some  gruli  on  Soard. 

(^._i)i,l  you  see  pilot   bread    brouglit    on  board    the  "SI. 
I'aul?"      A.— I  do  not   think  so.       I  might  not  have  seen  it 
going  on  board 
,  Q.— You  did  not  know  liie  old  iiih.l  bread  of  the  "("aroleiia 

when  you  saw  it  cm  board  the  "SI.  Paul"?  A.— 1  did  noi 
know  that  it   was  the  s;mn',  but  it  was  there  all  right. 

(^.--Yoii  do  not  know  that  it  was  llic  same  pilot  lirca<l  thai 
was  (m  tli<'  "raroliiia"'.'     .\.-  No.  I  can't  swear  as  lo  that. 

Q._Yoii  did  not  see  a  boat  leave  the  "("arolena"  and  go  <" 
the  "St.   I'iMil"?     .\.— I   saw   lh<'  boat    leave  there. 

(^._I)i,1  y,m  Hcc  hcf  go  to  the  "St.  fiiiil"?  .\.-Slic  just 
went  to  the  do(  k. 


ck^) 


(.failles  .Miiiijjcr — ("rosw.) 

t^. — Uid  .vou  Bff  pnivisioiiH  I  hat  caiue  out  of  tlie  boat  coiu- 
inji;  Iroiii  the  "Caiolciiii"  and  jnH  on  lo  the  "St.  I'aul"?  A  — 
Wi'll,  not  diirtt. 

t^. — Thi'  fart  i«  tliat  you  saw  Honic  i)ik)t  bread  on  board, 
and  you  lieard  it  said  at  some  tiiiK.'  that  some  provisions  were 
taken  otl  tlie  "<"ai'olena"'  and  put  on  the  "St.  Paul"'?     A. — I 
heard  theiu  say  tliat. 
10       (2- — Heard  wlio  say  tliat?    A. — Tic  boys,  the  crowd. 

t^. — The  fact  is  you  do  not  know  tivit  the  provisions  were 
taken  oil'  the  "Carolena"  and  put  on  tue  "St.  i'aul."  i'xcept 
by  what  you  were  told?     A. — No. 

(I. — Did  you  see  theuj  taken  ott'  the  "('arolena"  and  put  on 
li.  aid  the  "St.  I'aul"?     A.— N()t  direet 

ii. — l>o  you  know  about  it  in  any  otiier  wii.*  e.xeept  vliat 
you  have  lieard?  .\. — I  know  it  beeause  I  eat  soiu'  of  tht; 
crackers. 

ii. — Did  you  reeofjnize  the  eiiukers?     A. — I  do  not    aiow. 
-"      (.) — Did  yon  reeofjnize  the  pilot  bread  of  the  "Carole.ia"  on 
lioard  the  "St.  raiil"?     A. — I   Ihoujifht  it  was  the  same  pilot 
bread. 

ii. —  iiad  you  eaten  of  that  pilot  bread  on  the  ship?  A. — 
'lis.  we  eat  it.  some  of  it. 

il. — And  y.'ni  would  eat  it  in  your  boats  fre<iueiitly?     A. — 

Yes. 

g.— Did  you  eat  it  on  tlie  "Carolena?"  A.— It  tasted  bet- 
tii  on  the  "Carolena." 

(2- — Do  not  be  funny.  be<aiise  I  will  not  have  it;  you  are 
1*^'  iiiider  oath.     Did  you  eat  it  on  the  '  ("artd<'iia"?     A. — Yes. 

i-i. — ^'oii  eat  it  on  the  "Carolena'^  and  in  the  boats?  A. — 
llotll. 

(y — Mow  did  you  recojiiiize  it  on  the  ''St.  I'aul"?  A. — I 
liiouj'ht  it  was  the  same. 

(2.— Heeause  of  the  taste?  A  —Well,  it  tasted  a  little  bet- 
ter on  the  "St.  I'aul." 

(2. —  Did  you  recop;iiize  the  paekayes  the  bread  was  in?  A. 
-They  were  in  s(|uare  boxes. 

,0  *i- — '*''!  .^""  ''^''''  '^''"'  •"'^'  1'''"*  bread  that  did  not  come 
ill  s(|uare  boxes?     .\. — No. 

(2.—  Now,  did  you  reco>;iii/e  anytliintr  else  on  I  lie  "St. 
I'.Mil"  that  came  from  tlie  "Carolena"?  A. —  No.  only  from 
I  lie  cook  house. 

(2. — What  did  you  rcco^niizel  fmiii  the  cook  house?  A. — 
Meat  of  siuiie  kind. 

(2. —  Did  voii  recoj-ni/i'  this  as  coniinn  from  tht  "Caiidena"? 
A— No. 

(2. — There  is  nothing;-  else  tiiiil  you  reeo}fni/.ed  exce|»t  the 
;o  liisle  of  the  pilot   bread?     .\. — That   is  all. 

(2- — Were  you  on  the  "Carolena"  wiieii  the  I'nited  States 
otliici'  came  nn  board?     A. — Yes. 

(2- — Did  he  take  any  inventory  then?     A. — No. 

<2. — Were  voii  tlu'ie  when  lie  did  take  an  inventory?     A, — 

Nn. 

<2.  —  ^'oll  did  not  see  him  fjoing  aluHit  takinii  the  inventory 
III'  the  larjie  amount  of  provisions  tU-M  you  saw  in  the  hold 
ol  llic  "Ciirolena"?     A. —No. 

(>. —  Von  (lid  not  st  c  him  piin;:  into  the  hold?     .\. — \o, 
iiii       (2- — ^^'ill   ^"n  lell  us,  Mr.  Muiifier.  how  lon>;  after  you  jjot 
into  (»iiniil;iska  did  you  leave  on  the  "SI.  I'aul"?     .\.  —  .Vboiit 
M  week  I  think. 

<2-  And  vou  slaved  on  llie  "(^arolcna"  all  that  lime?  .\.— 
No. 

<2.     Had  \oii  been  ashm-e?     .\. — Yes. 

().- Hack' and  forlli?     .\.  -Yes,  out   tlsliiiifr. 

<.).  Did  you  see  ;iiiy  ofllcrr  of  th-  revenue  culler  -'Rnsh" 
Illinium  on  bomil  wlnn  \ou  weic  at  Diinalaska?     .\. — No. 


.iliitljdjii; 


63S 
(fliinu'H  M\ni(|i'r — CrosH.) 

Q. — \Vli«'ii  .von  were  weizcd  did  you  turn  tho  oflRcer  come  on 
boiird?      A. — Vi'8,  sir. 

Q. — You  Huw  no  Tnited  Stales  revenue  offleer  .all  Uie  time 
yon  were  on  the  "Carolena?"  A. — 1  saw  him  when  we  were 
seized. 

(i. — You  siiw  no  ofticer  from  that  tim<'  unti  1  .you  went 
ashore  at  Ounalaska?     A. — No,  I   was  out  tisliiufj. 

{}.- — You  did  not  go  out  tishing  before  vou  went  ashore 
from  tlie  "Carolena"?     A. — No. 

(.i. — From  the  tinu'  of  the  seizure  until  .vou  went  asliore  at 
Ounalaska  you  were  on  tlie  ''r'ai'olena,"  and  vou  say  that  you 
did  not  see  an  oflicer  takintj  a  list  of  tlie  thinf;s  and  ttoiuf; 
ahoiit  the  ship?  A. — Thei'e  was  an  officer  on  board,  bi't  i 
did  not  see  him  make  n  list. 

il. — You  did  not  see  him  f^oinj;  around  takiufj  the  inven 
tory?     .\. — I  do  not  remember  that. 
(.}. — Will  you  swear  that  lie  did  not?     A. — \o. 
20       Q. — NYlien  you  went  up  to  ('layo(]Uot     your    brother-iniaw 
lU'chtel  was  on  board?     A. — Yes. 
Q. — You  rowed  up  with  him,  did  not  you?     A. — Yes. 
(i. — And  this  is  the  first  time  vou  had  ever  been  to  sea? 
A.— Yes. 

Q.— \Yere  yon  ill?     A.— No. 

(i.— You  were  n<»t  siek?     A. — Not  up  to  riay0()uot  I  was 
not. 
Q. — ^Vas  your  brother  in-law  siek?     .\. — I  believe  lie  was. 
Q. — He  is  your  brolher-inlaw;  dct  not  you  know  whetlK'r 
3^   he  was  siek  or  not  ?     A. — They  said  he  was  siek. 
y.— I>id  you  se«>  him  on  the  voya},'e?     A. — Yes. 
Q. — lie  was  about,  wasn't  he?     A. — No. 
Q— ^Vllere  was  he?     .\.— In  the  cabin,  I  think. 
Q.— How  lonj;  was  he  in  the  cabin?  A.— I'ntil  he  Rot  down 
there. 

Q.— And  you  did  not  see  him  all  the  way  up  altlutugh  he  is 
3-our  brother-in-law?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Yo  u  did  not  have  anytliinjj;  to  do  on  the  voyage  up  to 
('layo(|iiot,  you  were  no(  a  seaman  were  you?      A.^Yes. 

Q.— I  Ihoujiht  you  were  sleerer  for  a  "sealing  boat?  A.— 
There  were  only  four  m<'n  and  we  had  to  takea  shift  all  the 
time. 

Q. — When  you  were  oil'  tiie  shift  did  not  you  ro  in  to  see 
your  poor  brotln  r-in  law  wiwi  was  siek?      \. — Yes. 

Q. — When  y(ni  },'ot  to  t'layo(|ii()l.  how  loiij;  after  you  pX 
there  did  you  go  ashore?      A. — On  the  same  day. 

Q. — -\nd  vou  swear,  do  vou,  that  the  canoes  were  on  llie 
bank  then?      .\.— Yes. 

(i- — The  sami'  fiuir  cano<'S  that  aflerwards  came  on  the 
"("aroleiia?"  .\. — I  did  niH  mark  tiie!ii.  I  do  not  know  altoul 
that. 

i-i. — Never  mind  :;iaiking — yon  were  doiiij;'  seamen's  work. 
!Md  vou  help  to  load  lliesi-  canoes  on  the  "Carolena".'"  .\. — 
No.  ' 

Q. — \\'here  were  you?       A. — I  was  <iii  board. 
(}. — .\nd  had  \ou  anytiiiiif;  to  do  with  loading  them?      A. — 
No. 

(i.— Wiio  did  load  them?       .\.-l>ave  Hiissell. 
(i. — Do  you  swear  that  these  were  the  canoes  you  saw  on 
the  liaiilc  when  lirst  you  icot  tlicre?       .\.— ^'es. 

(i. — ^■ou  sweai'  tlial  tile  III  noes  that  came  on  board  were 
the  same?  .\,-  \'e.-<,  by  tile  time  I  had  got  on  shore  tiie.v 
had  started  to  rilt  them. 

Q. — Ami  thev  wei'i'  the  saiiu'  ones  as  were  put  on  board? 
A.— Yes. 

Q.— .\nd  yon  swear  you  went  ashore  the  (irsi  <1ay  you  ar 
lived  aiKl  saw  liiese  canoes?      A. — Yes. 


40 


SO 


rx) 


10 


f^39 
(Jiiiiics  Mimi^ci' — (U'oNK.) 

Q. — Did  you  notice  what  b'H'amu  of  Cotfiford?  Did  lio  go 
aslior*'  witli  y(!M?  A. — I  think  he  was  out  trying  guns  to  8«'e 
liow  they  would  shoot.  , 

Q. — Did  Cotsford  go  asliore  witli  you?  A. — 1  do  not  know 
if  ill'  went  in  tlio  same  boat  or  not. 

Q.— Did  he  st.iy  asliore  tliat  day?      A.— I  do  not  know  tliat. 

<.}. — Did  he  lia\e  anything  to  do  with  tlxing  tlie  rilm?  A. — 
No. 

Q.— Did  IJeehlel?      A.— No. 


vj. — IJec'litel  l.iad  notliing  to  do  witli  fixing  tlie  ribs? 


No. 


A.  - 
A. 


23 


4-^ 


Q. — .\nd  Ueclitel  never  talked  to  von  about  this  cas*;? 
—No. 

(J.— Never?      A.— No. 

Q. — Have  you  talked  to  them  within  the  last  eight  days? 
A. — I  have  talked  to  him,  but  not  about  the  case  though. 

Q. — You  have  talked  with  him?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — .\nd  nevvT  a  word  about  the  case  or  your  business 
liere?      A. — I  told  him  I  was  over  on  account  of  the  case. 

Q.— .\nd  he  did  not  give  you  the  si  art  ling  news  that  it  was 
said  that  lie  was  i)arl  owner  of  the  "Oarolena?"       A.— No. 

Q. — .\nd  you  had  ni>t  seen  him  in  about  three,  or  four, 
years?      .\. — About  three  years. 

Q. — TTe  never  mentioned  to  you  that  it  was  claimed  that 
iu>  was  one  of  Hie  owners  of  tlie  "Carolena"  that  you  sailed 
off  on?      A.— No. 

Q. — Now  did  you  see  where  Rechtel  went  when  he  went  off 
30  at  <"layo(iuot?      You  say  he  went  away.      A. — I  did  not  see 
him  going. 

(I. — Wliat  did  he  go  in?      A. — I  do  not  know  that. 

Q. — Did  you  not  even  give  your  brother-in-law  good-bve? 
A.— No. 

Q. — Did  you  know  he  was  going?      A. — No. 

Q. — .\nd  he  never  mentioned  to  you  where  he  was  going? 
A.— No. 

Q. — .And  you  went  off  on  tliis  triji  of  the  "Pavolena"  with- 
out knowing  wiuit  became  of  Ileclilel?  .\.— Tlie  only  thing 
was  I  lieard  th"iii  say  where  he  went  to;  I  did  not  know  it 
and  he  did  not  (ell  me. 

Q.— And  yon  bad  no  talk  with  liim  about  it.  Did  Cotsford 
work  at  steiimiiig  iliese  ribs?      .\.— Ed.  Shiels  was  the  name. 

Q.—Do  you  know  anything  about  a  man  named  Indian 
•limmy?      .V. — I  do  not  know  anything  about  liim. 

Q.— You  went  down  to  San  Francisco  on  the  ''St.  Paul?" 
.\.— Yes. 

(J.— Wlio  iiaid  yon  fare?      A.— I  do  not  know  that. 

Q.— .\iid  you  stayed  in  San  Francisco  for  10  days?      .\.— 

Yes. 

Q._Who  i«iid  your  hotel  bill  there?      .V.-Mr.  Muiisie. 

Q.— TTe  was  not  there.  T  suii]tose?       .\.— No. 

Q._\Vho  imid  your  fare  back?       .\.— >rr.  Aliiiisic 

Q.— T>id  li<>  also  pay  you  your  wages?       .\. — No. 

Q. — TTe  never  paid  von  voiir  wages?       A. — No. 

Q._Suiv?       A.— Sure. 

Q. — .\nd  von  never  got  a  I'ent  for  your  wtn-k  on  (lie  'M'nro- 
l.iia?"      A.'— No. 

Q.-  Who  did  you  say  paid  your  fare  up  from  San  T>an 
<isco?       .\. — It  was  paid  to  the  com]);nty. 

Q.— ITow  was  it  ji^iid?      A. — I  do  nt)(  know. 

Q. — You  do  Tiot  know  whether  i(  was  paid  or  iio(  by  Mr. 
Miinsie?  A. — The  only  thing  w.-is  thai  I  heard  them  say  that 
i(   was  paitl  by  !^Iuiih«ic. 

Q.-^Yoii  heard  whom  say  it.  You  heard  him  say  it?  .\. 
—  Yes. 


'•,0 


60 


,!|.|l!,||!M^'Mp. 


lO 


30 


640 

(•laiiU'M  Miiii^ci' — (^'loHB — I{«'-dir«'<<.) 
Q. — V(ni  wori>  not  paid  yowv  wagos  uor  youi-  lay  for  tlu> 


voyage ; 


A.— No. 


20 


Q. — Aud  that  lottcr  that  has  beon  spoken  of,  you  did  not 
get  it  until  you  reached  here?      A. — No. 

Q. — Have  you  got  (he  envelope?      A. — No. 

Q. — Wiiere  is  it?  A. — 1  tore  it  in  pieces,  and  threw  it 
down  near  the  witness  box  some  place. 

(J. — I  want  to  have  a  look  at  that  envelope?  A. — It  was 
all  tore,  and  I  tore  it  in  ])ieces,  md  I  threw  it  down  here. 

Q. — That  letter  was  from  M'.n'sie.  was  it?  A. — Yes,  from 
Munsie. 

Q. — Can  yon  tell  us  who  the  man  was  that  saw  you  eight 
days  ago?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — What  is  his  name?      A. — Wait  a,  moment. 

Q. — Come  now,  von  know  his  nann'.  What  is  it?  A.-- 
It  is  a  pretty  han  name,  and  1  am  ]toor  at  names.  His 
name  was  (Chandler,  or  sonu'thing  like  that. 

Redirect  examination  by  Mr.  Kodwell: 

Q. — Why  do  you  say,  Mr.  Munger.  that  the  piU)t  bread  tast- 
ed better  (m  the  "St.  I'anl"  than  on  the  "Carolena?"  A.— 
Because  we   were  hungry. 

Q.— Did  you  not  get  fo()d  on  the  "St.  Paul?"      A.— No. 

(i. — How  did  \ou  get  along.  What  did  you  do?  A. — The 
first  we  did  not  get  anything,  and  then  a  man  named  Kd. 
Shiels  got  into  tlie  kitchen — he  was  a  kind  of  butcher,  and 
helped  the  cook  in  there  and  passed  out  sonu'thing  to  eat. 

Mr.  Dickinson. — Is  this  i)roper  redirect  examination? 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — That 
is  one  of  the  dilliculties  of  a  witness  dropping  something  in 
answer  that  is  not  asked  about. 


I'lii^ 


lO 


00 


He-examinati'jn  by  Mr.  Hod'vell  (continued:) 

Q. — How  long  did  it  take  you  to  go  uj>  from  Victoria  to 
Clayottuot?      A. — I  do  not  know. 

t). — You  do  not  renu'iuber?  A. — \o,  aliout  two  or  three 
days  probably. 

Q.— Do  you  know  what  condition  of  liealtli  Mr.  Rechtel  was 
in,  geneially,  af)out  the  time  lie  took  this  journey?  A. — Not 
just  before  that,  1  dii  not   know. 

Q. — You  said  you  were  not  sick  until  you  reached  Clyo- 
(juot.  You  nu'an  yon  were  not  seasick?  A. — I  was  not  sea- 
sick. 

Q. — It  is  a  very  short  journey?      \. — Yes. 

Q. — Do  I  uiulerstand  you  to  say  that  you  never  lieard  Mi'. 
Bechtel  say  atiytliing  about  the  "Carolena"  or  the  hunters 
in  her?      A. — N'o. 

.Mr.  ISodwcll: — The  next  (ineslion  that  I  propo.^^e  to  ask  the 
witness  is  in  cousciiueiice  of  sonielhiiig  tlial  dropjied  from 
him  in  liis  exaniinaliiui.  1  shall  siibniil  this  evidence,  and 
give  the  authority  for  it   if  there  is  a  dispute. 

(To  witness.) 

Q. — Did  you  hej:r  Mr  Beditel  say  anything  (ui  that  jour 
ney  as  to  the  purpose  of  the  journr'V? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — To  that  we  object. 

Mr.  Hodwell:  -I  have  the  authority  for  that  if  there  is  any 
dispute  about  i(.  "When  any  evidence  is  given  ns  to  a  jut- 
son  being  on  a  iouriiey.  or  doing  any  act.  anything  wlii''h  at 
the  time  which  is  dei'iaratory  of  the  pur|iose  of  the  journey, 
oi'  the  object  of  it,  is  not  hearsay;  it  is  admitted  as  pari  of  the 


lo 


20 


10 


641 

(JaiiH'8  Munni'i  — Ki'-diit'ct.       Muliat-I  S«'riiult— Din-ct.) 

K'N  p'stiic  and  is  (^pivswd  in  Uu'  cliaractcr  of  tlu>  act. 
Tliuf  w  laid  down  in  Kohi-oc's  NiHi  IMius  and  tii-e«'nlcaf  on 
Kvidcnec." 

Mr.  Diclvinson: — I'ndcr  ct'i'lain  •onditionH  and  for  certain 
purposes  tliat  is  (rue.  hut  it  is  not  true  wtien  botli  wItneHSOS 
have  heen  calhd  on  llu-  same  side,  and  wiu'n  tlie  jiaity  wliosu 
motives  and  purposes  are  best  known  to  liiniself,  is  within 
call. 

Mr.  Uodwell: — Thar,  your  Ifoniuirs,  I  suhmit,  is  not  a  test, 
liecanse  so  loufj  as  evidence  is  admissilde  on  an.v  pround  the 
exact  form  or  order  in  which  that  eviden<'e  will  l»e  adduced 
must  he  left  io  the  jiei'son  wlio  is  conducting  the  case.  Tlia 
only  duty  to  the  Court  is  to  produce  admissil)le  evidence,  and 
tlie  duty  of  the  court  is  to  receive  jt.  If  he  produces  it  in 
liad  order,  that,  of  course,  is  »  matter  for  the  court  to  decide 
iihout.  The  test  is  "Is  it  evidence  or  not?"  and  not  whether 
it  is  the  best  evidence  lie  can  {jet. 

The  Commissioner  on  behalf  of  the  I'nited  States:— Limit 
your  (|uestion  to  what  he  said  on  hoard  tlie  vessel  as  qualify- 
irj;  his  purpose. 

lie  direct  examination  continued  by  Mr.  Itodwell: 

Q._l)id  you  hear  Mr.  lU'chtel  say  anythiii};  while  on  the 
voyage?  Wait  until  I  get  to  the  end  of  my  ((uestion.  Did 
you  hear  him  s.iy  anything  during  the  C()urse  of  the  journey 
which  indicated  the  character  of  it? 

This  closed  tlie  examination  of  tlio  witness. 


"f^WH 

^^ 

I  Ifi: 


40 


Michael  M.  Sennilt  was  called  as  a  witness  on  the  part  of 
(ireat   Itnlain  and  duly  swoiii.     Tiie  tcstiiuony  of  this  wit 
iiessis  otfered  in  rebuttal  in  the  "Caruhna"  case. 


Direct  examination  by  Mr.  I'.odwell: 

(i.— You  at  present   live  al    .Mix  rni?     .\.— Yes,  sir. 

t^.— When  did  yoii  come  to  N'icloria?     .\.  — In   ISttS. 

(i.—I  mean  lati-ly?     .\.— -I.a.st   .MoiKlay  aflcnioon. 

iy — What  was  the  occasion  of  your  coming   Ihtc?     .\. — I 
5^   go!  a  telegram  to  come  to  N'ictoria. 

(». — From   whom?     .\.-   T'eoiii   .Mr.   Miiu.^ie. 

Q. — Have  you  got    that   telegi'am?       A. — Ye.s.  sir. 

(2. —  N'oii   have  it    willi  you?     .\. — 'N'cs.  sir. 

(i. — This  is  the  tclegtam  you  received:  "l-'roui  X'icloria  to 
Mirluicj  Serault,  hotel  proprietiu',  .Mberiii.  Vidoria.  i;?lh 
!>(•(•.,  ISitt;.  ■^'oti  are  wanted  here  by  XYidiiesday's  ti'ain  re 
< '(iiiiniissioii.  Time  aiid  exjiciisrs  allowed.  ,\nswei'.  Wil- 
li:iiii  Miinsie."     .\ . — Thai   is  the  (elegiani. 

(i. —  III    ISStl  yon    were  storekeeper  for  Warren  at     Clayo 
oiiot?     .\. — Yes. 

Q. — Living  there?     .\. — Yes. 

(i.—Did  you  see  tli.  "Caroleiia"  there  that  year?  .\.— She 
<"iine  there  in  ISSt!.  bii,  what  tii<ie  of  the  year  I  do  not  know. 

<i. — Was  she  there  In  i'lU'e  .Ma.\  ?     .\.      S'es. 

'i.— .\iid  (hen  cameba.'c  in  May?     A. — Yes. 

(}. — Do  you  know  .111  Indian  called  liKlian  Jimmv?  \. — 
Ves. 

11 


^>0 


|l       ,    ■'■   Wl 


'ljlll,„l. 


642 

(Mifluu'l  Sfiimll — Direct.) 

(i — Can  .V(»ii  tell  iis  anvtliiiift  altoiH  IiIh  inovt'incntM  lliat 
vt'ar.  IM8(I?  A. — Well,  hv  used  to  go  oiU  stt'ci-iug  for  flic  lu- 
tliiiiis. 

(i. — Aiiylliiiij;  with  reference  to  the  "<'aroleiia"?  A. — No, 
not  i\»  I  know  of. 

(i. —  lUt  von  know  of  liis  niakin;;  a  trip  on  tlie  "Carolena" 
that  vear?  .\. — lie  ca?ne  to  Vlcloiia  with  four  or  five  other 
10   Indiiins. 

ii. —  How  <li»l  he  come?     .\. — lie  came  on  the  "Carolena." 
(^.^On   which  trip  of  the  ''Carolena"  did  h((  come  to  Vi("- 

roria?     A.— I   think   it    was  wlien   they  <iuil   sealinj;  on   the 

coai<l  aH  near  as  I  recollect. 
Q. — Then  he  came  liack  to  Clayo(|not?     A. — lie    did     not 

( ome  liai-k  on  tiie  "Carolena."     He  <:ol   liack  on  another  ves- 

s.-l. 

Q. — Do  yon   know  anythnfr  altont    the  canoes    that    were 
20    taken   on   hoard   of   the   "Carolena"   that   year?       A. — There 
were  either  fonr  or  si.v  that   went  on  board  the  "Carolena  " 
I  cannot  tell  ex'.ictly  wliethei-  it  was  fonr  or  six. 

ii. — Tell  ns  wliat  \on  know  ahont  these  canoes?  A. — 
Thci'e  were  ton!'  canoes  left  at  Claycxpiot  and  }j;ot  fixed;  they 
pot  timbers  and  side  pieces  pnt  in.  I  had  to  furni.sh  some 
of  the  timber,  and  used  to  give  them  a  hand  now  and  again 
to  fix  the  canoes. 

(2.— Do  yon  know  anything  abont  who  jinrchased  these  ca- 
noes, or  who  bargained  for  them?       A. — N'o,  well — 
30 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  Ktates: — That 
answers  the  (piestion. 

Q.— Did  you  know  Captain  Ogilvie?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Do  yon  know  whethei'  he  had  anything  to  do  with 
iliese  canoes  in  any  way?       .\.--TIe  must  have  had. 

Q, — Why  do  yon  say  that?      A. — There  was  no  other  mas 
ter  on  tioard   the  ship  bnt  him. 
40       Q. — Did  yon  have  any  talk  with  liim?      A.— Y,s. 

Q. — About   whaf?       .\. — Where  he  could  g(  t  canoes. 

(J. —  Did  yon  ti'll  him?  .\. — I  told  him  where  I  thongbt  lie 
could  get   two  canoes. 

(}. —  Do  yon  know  whether  he  di*l  anything  in  conseipn'uce 
of  wlial  you  told  him?       A. — I  thiidc  he  got  the  two. 

Q.— Did  he  !i"i  the  canoes?       A. — Yes. 

Q. — .\fl('r  your  conversation   wiJh  him  did  he  get  any  ca- 
noes?     .\. —  III-  got  fonr  or  six,  bnt  I  do  not  remendier  the 
50    numbei-. 

Q.— Was  that  on  tiie  first  trip  of  the  "Carolena?"  A.— I 
do  not   reuK'niliei. 

Q. — You  remendier  ihat  Indian  .limmiv  left  Clayocpiot  with 
him  on  that  trip  and  came  to  Victoria?       A. — Yes. 

Q.— AVhat  kind  of  canoes  were  tliosei  .\. — They  were  a 
large  canoe;  tliat  is,  larger  tliaii  ihe  regular  sealing  canoe  on 
account  of  theni  using  while  men  for  hunting. 

^  The  Coinmissioiier  on  the  pai't  of  the  I'nited  States: — I  do 

not  see  wliat  part  of  the  case  of  tlie  other  side  this  tends  to 
rebut. 


Mr.  I'e'eis: — Sui'ely  we  need  not  be  so  particular  here  now. 

The  C  unniissioner  on  the  part  of  tlie  Cniled  Slates: — For 
my  part  I  lliiiik  il  is  time  to  get  particular.  1  intend  to  see 
iliai  lini"  is  not  wast"d  bv  irrelevant  testiinonv, 


^ 


lo 


C'43 
(MifliiH'l  Sdjiiill— Din-cl.) 

The  rdimniHMioiicr  on  (lie  |iii?(  of  II(.r  Miijcst.v:— It  would 
not  Hccni  to  nic  ilnit  (liis  in  |iio|M'r  nhiiltiil. 

Mr.  I'cf(TM:— TluTc  niifilit  lie  ii  stri<  t  (pnstioii  ;in  to  wlictli 
(T  it  is  pi'o|M'r  nlMiliii!  or  not.  TIm  iillct,'ii(io'.  is  iiuuU-  on 
the  other  side  tli.it  tlirsr  cjinocs  wcr"  hon^'lit  It.v  I'.cclilcl,  iind 
Hiircl.v  we  liiivc  ;i  rijilit  lo  sliow  lliiil  tliis  is  not   llic  ciihc. 

Tlu'  (JomniiNsloncr  on  the  pjirl  of  llcr  .Miijcsl.v:— If  tlic  oh 
jcci  is  lo  prove  llijil  lliese  were  ciinoes  llini  would  Ite  worth 
wh.il  .von  piiid  for  tliein.  doni  von  liiinlv  I  hat  n  (|neslion  to 
tliiit  elfeel   would  he  ji  fair  limit  in  rebnital? 

.Mr.  I'elers:— Unl  ihev  hviua  up  :i  wilness  nnnied  Colsford, 
who  sii.vs  thill  so  fiir  ;is  he  Knows  tlu-  verv  liirjiest  one  of  the 
canoes  was  lionuht  and  hai},'ained  for  al  :|fll.  We  want  now 
lo  show  the  alisiirdil.v  of  that.  We  uave  evidtin-e  that  we 
hoiifrhl  the  canoes  at  a  cerlain  lijjnre  iiresjiecl  ive  of  what 
liiey  were  w<H't!i.  and  then  liiev  hrin^;  ('(tislord  lo  say  tliat 
liiis  Ntaleinenl  ninsl  Ite  wroiij,'  and  that  liie  canoes  only  cost 
.fit.  lie  does  not  swear  thai  lliere  was  a  bargain  made  lo 
liny  liiat  canoe  for  ifW,  lint  liie  assnniplion  is  that  it  was 
lioiif^hl  for  tliat  pi-ice.  I'nder  llie  circnmslances,  evidence  of 
this  kind  is  peri'eclly  proper.  I  lielieve  thai  ev(  n  in  an  or 
dinary  case  at  nisi  priiis  it  would  lie  iillowed  in  rehnllal. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  purl  of  the  I'liiied  Stales: — If  you 
30   l""l   •'•  this  <'vidence,  Mr.   Telers,  what   rifflils  have  Iliey  on 
the  other  side'' 

Mr.  I'elei's: — I  shall  not  olijecl  lo  any  evidence  liiey  put  in 
in  the  matter.  I  siilnnil  tiial  In  a  matter  of  this  kind  we 
shonid  not  he  lionnd  down  loo  closely.  We  are  not  fjoinji 
lo  hrinf;  out  any  new  evidence.  I  mijjlil  refer  your  Honours 
lo  Colsford's  evidence,  lo  lie  f<iund  al  pa;;e  oT'i,  and  there  it 
will  lie  found  that  he  makes  a  slalemeni  liial,  if  correct, 
would  tend  to  show  that  Mr.  Miinsie's  slalemeni  cannot  be 
credited. 


20 


40 


5P 


The  ("ommissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — So  far  as 
I  am  concerned,  I  believe  you  can  rebiil  tliat  jiarlicular  state- 
ment of  ("olsforl  by  producing;  any  evidence  wlii<h  would  lend 
to  show  that  he  was  mislaken.  The  evidence  was  allowed 
orijiinally  to  contradici  a  slalemeni  willi  ret;ard  lo  Uechtel's 
presence  and  wiliiout  any  reference  to  (Colsford.  It  seems 
lo  me  in  some  way  you  oiifiht  lo  be  allowed  lo  rebut  as  best 
you  can.  if  you  can,  the  inference  that  mifjhl  fairly  be  drawn 
Irom  Cotsford's  testimony. 

The  ('ommission(>r  on  the  iinrt  of  Hie  riiited  Stales: — Why 
do  not  you  ask  I  In-  (pieslion,  Mr.  I'elers,  whether  canoes  of 
thnt  class  ever  sold  for  fll? 

.Mr.  Peters: — We  will  do  so. 


Hirect  examination  by  .Mi'.  I'odwell  continued: 

^         Q. — Could  you  buy  one  of  these  canoes  for  f  1 1  ?     A. — No. 

The  Commissioner  on  Hie  pari  of  Her  .Majesty :— Did  such 
kind  of  canoes  ever  sell  for  any  price  like  |!H?     A.— No,  sir. 

'-i.— !)u  ><;••!  know  what  price  iliey  did  sell  for?  .\. — 1  do 
not  know  what  he  paid  f(U'  tlieni. 

Q. — Could  you  mention  any  instance  in  which  canoes  of 
lliai  kind  were  boughl  al  thai   price?       .\. — No. 


l||i|, 


l:l 


10 


20 


644 

(Micha  -I  StMimll  —  IHimtI — rioNN.) 

t^. — Wluil  (li<l  ,\()U  im.v  for  cauiM'H  wlicii  .vmi  iMMiglit  llu'iu? 
A.— I  \utnn\U  tlicin  sill  tlio  wa.v  from  $U)  to  :(tsri. 

H. —  Did  von  ever  sec  aiiv  caiiofs  like  that  Hohl  for  !||tl(l  or 
.fll?       A.— No. 

ti.— Or  for  aiivlliiiiK   like  thai    price?       A.— No. 

(i.— What  would  be  about  tlic  frciicral  Helling  |tri(c  for  ca- 
iKM's  of  that  kind?  A. —  It  jumI  dtiM'iidH  upon  the  time  of 
liic  year. 

ii. — What  an-  the  ronditionH  tiiat  r<'{;ula(c  tlie  juice?  A. 
—At  tliat  tiuie  of  the  vcar  the  Indians  won't  ncIl  tlicir  ranocs. 

Q. — Wliv?  A. —  Itccausc  tlic.v  aic  usint;  thcni  tlicniHt'lvcH 
tlK'u  f(U'  scaling,  but  aftci-  tlir  season  vou  ccuild  ^ct  a  canoe 
for  any  price  if  they  were  shiut  of  money. 

Q. — -Vt  that  time  of  the  year  in  tin-  seastm  tlie  Indians  are 
sealing  tliemsel\es  and  won't  sell  tlieir  canoes?  A. —  \o. 
because  tliey  want   'o  use  llieiu. 

Q. — Did  yini  see  Mr.  I?eclite|  on  tlie  o<casion  of  tlie  seccuid 
visit  of  the  "Carolena"  to  ("laytMjUot?  A. —  I  saw  liim  wlu-n 
slu"  was  (ui  her  voyaue  to  llchriufr  Rea. 

(I — Wliere  did  Mr.  He'Iilel  slay  wlien  lie  was  at  Clayo 
qiiot?       A. — Tie  stayed  willi  ine. 

q_ — Did  |h>  tell  you  why  lie  was  there  and  where  lie  was 


fioin^' 


,•> 


A.— Yes. 


(2.— What  did  he  tell  you? 

.Ml".  Di(kins(ui: — I  object  to  this. 

The  ('(uiimissioner  on   the   part   of    ller   Majesty: — On   the 
30    wliole  we  think  Mr.  ISotlwell  may  ask  this  <|uesti<ui. 

Direct  examinaticui  by  Mr.  Itodwell  continued. 

().— What  did  Mr.  IJechtel  say  to  you  about  the  subject? 
A. — When  he  <anie  ashore  he  asked  me  which  way  lie  would 
};el  to  Alberni,  and  I  told  him  there  was  no  chance  except 
there  was  a  canoe  pass  or  unless  he  hire<l  a  canoe. 

Mr.  Dickiiis(M»: — I  desii-e  to  record  my  protest  on  the  notes 
a;{ainst   admiltin<;  a   statement  of  what    Mr.   Kechtel   said^ 
40   under  the  circunislances  on     this    reconl — jtrovinf;  what  Mr. 
Hechtel's  intentions  were  by  what  lie  said  to  this  witness. 

The  rommissioiier  cm  the  j»art  of  Her  Majesty: — If  I  no 
into  a  bar  room,  and  it  is  asserted  that  I  did  so  prejudicially, 
cannot  I  produce  testimony  that  I  was  in  there  for  a  certain 
purpose?  I  tliink  that  would  be  evidence.  Sui)i)ose  I  went 
into  the  bar  for  the  jMirpose  of  hiriuff  a  horse  to  jjo  on  an- 
other  joiirnev. 


50 


no 


Direct  examination  Iiy  Mr.  ISodwell  continued. 

i-i. — Did  Ml'.  Hechtel  ;;ive  you  any  orders  or  directions  or 
take  any  jiarl  to  your  knowledjie  in  the  matter  of  the  l»ur- 
chase  of  these  ciinoes,  or  as  to  the  work  that  should  be  done 
on  them?       A. —  No,  sir. 

("rosscxamination    by   Mr.    Dickinson: 

ii. — Wliat  was  your  business  up  tiiere  ihen?  A. — I  was 
tradiufj-  for  Captain  \\'arren. 

(i. — Did  you  have  anylhin<;  to  do  with  the  canoes?  A. — 
No.  sir. 

^i- — W'ei'e  y(m  llieiv  when  llicy  wen    bought?     A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Vou  did  not  hear  the  transaction,  did  you?  A. — No, 
sir. 

<i- — Vou  did  not  <ee  the  man  that  sold  them  at  the  time 
when   he  was  bejiimiiiiy;  to  sell   them?       A. — Ves. 

<i. —  Did  you  see  the  knees  put  in  the  canoes?  A, —  Vcs, 
sir.  I  helped  to  do  some  of  the  work. 


lO 


645 

(Micliiicl   Scninll — ( 'iohh.) 

Q.— Was  Itfclilcl  iIm'Ic  jil  llif  liiiif  tlir  woiU  wiim  (lone? 
A.— Y<'H. 

<2. — \Vliii(  was  ln'  (loiiiK?  A.  -Me  was  not  diiiii;;  aiiv- 
tiling'. 

(J.— Was  Ik'  workinn  on  llic  hunk?  A.— No,  In-  canit'  liatU 
now  and  apiin. 

(i. — Did  he  f,'ivi'  anv  dirccirons  aliont  llic  work?  A. — N'o. 
sir,  III*  did  not. 

(i. — Were  tlic  canofH  lioii^iil  wlicn  ncclitcl  was  llicrc? 
A. — Tlial   I  <anno(  wav. 

y.— Mill  you  liavf  iiHlillcd  licit'  (lia(  Hcclitcl  did  not  nivc 
an.v  directions  alxnil  (lie  jmrcliasc  of  canocf,,  and  did  not  linvf 
anyliiinn  to  do  with  llii-  iiunliasc  of  canoes?  A.— Well,  I 
don't  know. 

<i- — Voii  were  nol  annind  were  you  all  the  time?  A.— No 
hut   the  canoes  were  •'i^.*-  hefore  IJechtel  came  there. 

(/.—Who  hroufiht   tiieiii  there?       A.— They  came  ashore. 
20       ti— Who  hronj-ht  them  there?      A.— .\n  Indian. 

Q. — What  was  his  name?      A. —  His  name  was  .limmy. 

ij. — Where  is  "Indian  .limmy?"      A. — I  don't  know. 

(2. — Is  he  up  there  now?      A. —  I  don't  know. 

il. — You  do  not  know?      A. — I  don't  know. 

il. — Wliere  does  he  live,  liow  far  from  your  place?  A. — 
7u  miles. 

(i. — Have  you  seen  him  since?       A. — \o,  sir. 

(J. — Did  you  say  he  came  down  to  N'icloria  on  the  "C'aro- 
leua?"       A. —  Ves,  sir. 
^o       Q- — What   trip?       A. — I  cannot  say  what  trip  it   was,  the 
trip,  1  think,  before  siie  went  to  Kehrin^  Sea. 

Q. — Did  you  see  Jimmy  p»  aboard?      A.— Ves.  sir. 

ii. — Some  other  Inilians  also?      A. —  Kilher  three  or  four. 

i.}. — Were  there  some  Indians  on  that  ship  on  the  tirst  seal- 
iiij;  trip,  when  she  was  first  up  there?  A. — Yes,  sir,  they 
sealed  otf  the  I'oast. 

Q. — Indian  .limmy  went  with  thiit  lot  of  Indians  sealing;  up 
^lie  coast,  did  he  not?      A. —  1  am  not  positive  he  was  anions; 
them. 
40       ii. — >Vere  there  some  other  Indians?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

i]. — Tlu-y  w«'nt  up  there  tlrst  and  hefore  the  canoes  were 
put  on  hoard,  anci  went  sealing;  in  the  sjtrin^.  in  February,  on 
the  coast  ?       A. — Yes. 

Q. — How  many  Indians  did  they  take  on  that  trijt?  A. — 
I  don't  know. 

il. — Did  you  see  any  Indians?      A. — Oh,  certainly. 

(2.— They  weni  on  itoard  tiie  "rarolena?"       A.— <'ertainly. 

i}. — They  went  otf  on  llie  trip?      A. — Yes. 

(2. — Ami  they  went  u|)  the  coast  sealinfj?       A. — Ves. 
?°       Q. — And  they  came  back?      .\. — Yes. 

(i. — And  they  stopped  where?  .\. — Stopjied  at  their 
place,  their  home. 

(J. — How  many  Indians  went  on  that  trip,  the  tirst  trip, 
when  they  went  sealintr  on  tlie  coast?  A. — That  I  don't 
know.  I  think  it  was  six  or  eijibt  canoes  the  "Carolena"  car- 
ried. 

iy — They  carried  six  or  eifjlil  canoes  on  their  first  trip?      A, 
— I  don't  remember  liow  many  she  took. 
60       *-i- — '^"f  ""'^'  '"'"'^  canoes  on  their  first  trip  in  the  spring'' 
A.— Ve.s. 

Q. — An<l  did  they  take  Indians  to  man  them?  A. — Cer- 
tainly. 

Q. — .Vnd  how  were  tlie  Indians  armed?  A. — They  had 
}iuns  and  sjiears. 

Q. — How  maiiy  Indians  to  a  canoe?       A. — Two. 

il. — .vnd  they  stojiped  on  the  wiiy  back  and  left  tli'  Indians 


^, 


IMAGE  EVALUATION 
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23  WIST  MAIN  STRUT 

WltSTM.N.Y.  MSM 

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X 


TTTT- 


lO 


20 


30 


.r 


40 


l|lM(l: 


(l:| 


50 


60 


646 

(MirliiU'l  Hcniult — <  'i-ohh.) 

off  wKli  the  <'.\<-«>|>liuu  of  liidiun  Jiiniiiy?  A. — Tlit-y  run  in 
.>in«l  out  all  till'  time. 

Q.— Did  tli«7  It'jive  the  Indians  off  pxrcpt  Indiuu  Jimmy? 
A.— Wli^-  no.  tlu'iv  wcri'  tinvi'  oHmth,  I  think. 

Q.— Did  thi'y  tuli*'  thfm  all  to  Victoria?      A. — YeH,  Hir. 

(). — How  do  you  Icnow  that  Indian  Jimmy  camu  to  Vittoriu* 
A. — ItcrauHi'  he  nuiiL'  to  my  place. 

(i.— Did  thf  other  Indunm  come  to  Victoria?  A.— Well, 
when  they  Ht<>|)ped  Healing  off  the  coast  they  came  aHliore. 

(i-— Wan  Indian  Jimmy  on  lliat  trip?  A. — I  could  not  tell 
yon  th:it 

i)  —How  do  you  know  he  went  to  Victoria?  A. — lie  got 
on  hoard  the  "('aroh«na"  for  Victoria. 

Q. — They  <liHchar;;ed  tlie  other  Indians,  did  tlu'y?  .\.— 
You  are  asking  too  much;  that  waK  a  lonf;  time  ago. 

Q. —  Do  you  know  the  names  of  these  Indian  .?  .\. — .limniy, 
of  course  we  knew  him  because  his  name  was  ">Vindy  Jiili- 
my." 

(i. — How  Ions;  was  she  jjone  on  that  trip  up  the  c«»ast?  A. — 
That  is  a  hard  tiling  to  answ<>r,  because  she  is  in  and  out  all 
the  time  accoitlin;;  !o  the  weather. 

Q. — What  did  they  do  with  tlu'  canoes  when  they  started 
for  Vi«'tt»ria?     .\. — They  landed  them. 

(J. — Were  these  the  same  canoes  they  took?  A. — No,  I 
could  not  say  that. 

Q. — Were  these  tlu'  same  canoes  they  took  on  tlu'ir  sealiiif; 
trip  that  they  afterwards  pnt  aboard  and  took  to  Victoria? 
A. — It  would  be  hard  for  a  man  t<»  swear  to  that. 

Q. — You  do  not  know,  do  y«ni?     .\. — No,  I  don't  know. 

Q. — What  be«ame  of  Hie  canoes  they  brou^rlil  back  from 
their  coast  trip?     A. — They  landed  them  then'. 

Q._\Vh,it  became  of  tlie"m  afterwards?    A.--I  don't  know. 

Q.— Now,  you  say  that  the  lii<lians  are  short  of  money  and 
they  will  sell  their  cfliioes  cheap  wlu'n  they  «;et  back  from 
seaiiuR?     A. — I  say  when  they  are  short  «»f  money. 

Q.— When  they  Ret  liack  from  sealing?     A.— Yes. 

Q._Now.  thew'  Indians  that  went  off  on  the  "t'arolena" 
got  back  from  tlie  coast  sealiiiR,  did  they  not?  A.— t'ertainly. 

(2.— Were  any  of  the  canoes  an  that  ship  bouuhl?  .\.— I 
don't  know. 

(/.—What  were  those  canoes  worth?  A.— It  all  depends 
on  what  you  can  m't. 

(/.— Wiiat  were  tiiose  canoes  worth?  A.— I  am  not  dealiiif; 
in  canoes,  therefore  I  don't  know. 

(i.— Were  Hiey  wortli  ^'JO?  ,\.— Which  canoes  are  you 
s{H'akin(;  of? 

y. — The  caiKH's  that  went  sealing?     A. — On  the  coast? 

(/.—(hi  the  "Caroleiiii"  on  the  coast,  with  the  Indian  crew. 
A. — Vou  can  buy  tliose  canoc's  for  dllTer«'nl  prices. 

ti.— Wt'ie  Ihev  worth  #!(»?     A.— More  than  that. 

(i.— fl.1?     A.— M^u-e  than  that. 

(i. — fliO?  A. — Yes.  you  could  not  buy  them  less  than  |25 
or  |;m». 

Q. — Were  the  canoes  that  the  "Carolenu"  Rot  tliere  in  May 
belter  than  those?     A. — They  were  larger. 

il. — Did  you  «'ver  know  of  a  canoe  up  (here  that  cost  f50? 
.\. — Yes,  i  jfot  oii)>  fiu- f.'t.~i  and  I  not  one  for  f S5. 

(J.— What  kind  of  a  <"anoe  was  Hint  fS."i  canoe?  A. — That 
was  a  lar^e  canoe,  carrii  d  about  four  tons. 

(J. — What  was  it  made  of?     A. — It  was  mad*'  of  cedar. 

(i.— When  did  vou  buy  that?  A.— I  bought  that  in  IHSr»— 
the  fall  of  ISsr.. 

</. — Now,  do  you  know  of  whom  they  btuiRlit  the  canoes 
that  \..re  put  on  the  "Carolena"  in  May?  .\.— They  were 
bought  from  Jimmy. 


20 


647 

(Mk-liat'l  Hi'i-aiilt — J.'iobh — lU'-dii-cct.) 

y. —  |{i>U);lit  ill  Mii.v,  w<  re  llii-v?  A. —  Yen,  1  would  uot 
Hwcar  what  tiiiii'  that  waH. 

H. — \V«M*«'  thow  fsr»  ijiiKH-M?     A. — Xo.  Hir. 

y. — Wert*  tht'.v  fr>(»  «-aiHM'H?    A. — I  raiinol  ti-ll  y*»»  that. 

y.— Wen-  thv.v  worth  fir>?  A.— Tho.v  w.'ii»  worth— It  all 
il<'|HMd<'<l  on  what  a  man  wanted  them  for. 

y.— Wen-  tlu.v  w«iitli  fl")?     A.— More  than  that. 

il. — Were  tlie.v  worth  f-.^?  A. — YeK,  sir,  they  were  worth 
more  than  that. 

Q. — VoH  Hwear  to  that,  do  .von?      .\. — I  do. 

y. — You  are  Htii.vinK  at   .Mr.  .MnnMie'n  hoiisi-?     .\. — No,  sir. 

y. — You  wei-e  Hta.vin}!  there?  .\. — I  wiih  tiiere  for  four 
davH.  The  reaHoii  I  was  there  heeaiiiie  I  took  Hiiddeiilv  ill 
and  Mr.  MiuiHie  waH  kind  eiioiiKh  to  (rive  me  a  room  in  IiIh 
liouHe. 

l{e-din>et  examination  by  Mr.  Itodwell: 

y. — Yon  wen-  iiiidei:  the  doitorV  eare  at  Mr.  Mniisle'H 
liouHe?  A. — Yen.  and  he  would  not  aHow  me  out  of  tho 
lioiiHe  at  all. 

y.— What   doelor?    A.— Mr.   Hall. 

y. — What  were  the  eirriiniHtanreH  iiiimedl!it(>ly  preredlnn 
your  illneHR  and  piiiiir  to  Mr.  Miinsie'H  hoiiHe?  .\. — Well, 
('apt.  Rob<>rtH  wan  hunting  for  me  and  I  went  on  iHiard  the 
iKtat  tii-Ht,  and  then  I  eanie  up  town — 

Mr.  Itodwell: — t'oiiimenee  with  your  arrival     in     Vietoria. 

WitiiettM: — I  eaiiie  to  Vietoria  and  I  had  Home     liineli,    and 

^'^  afterwardH  I  went  to  hii'  wh«'n  the  boat  sailed  for  Alberni — 

Mr.  IMekinHon: — An*  we  f;oin^  to  have  sill  this? 

Mr.  HiHlwell:— The  ditlleully  Ih  that  a  part  of  tiiiM  tiling  it* 
already  on  the  reeord  and  eolour  ItaH  been  };iv<-i)  to  thoHe  rir- 
(UiiiHtaiieeH  whieh  ar«*  not  exaetly  eorii-et.  Kiihei-  that 
Hhould  go  out  of  the  reeord  or  a  full  explanaiioi  sliouli 
ap|H'ar. 

Mr.  I'etert*: — I  made  the  HUKK^>Ktion  that  all  that   matter 
4*^  Hhould  );o  out  of  thin  reeord,  I  do  not  think  it  on^'ht  to  be  in 
the  iH'eord  at  all. 

The  ('ommiHHioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Maj'^nty: — In  it  print- 
ed in  the  forms? 

Mr.  Peters: — Yes.  and  it  ban  a  teiideiiey  t.<  hIiow  that  this 
witness  is  not  a  eredible  witness. 

.Mr.  HirkinHon:— We  withdraw  tin-  objeetion  if  our  fiiends 
-o  want  it  for  thin  i-easoii.  providttl  they  will  spare  us  the  e<ui- 
versation  he  had  with  people. 

The  ('oiiimissioner  on  the  |«rt  of  Her  .Majesty: — .\s  fbey 
cannot  be  taken  out  ol  the  printed  notes,  they  beinf;  parted.  I 
suppose  what  yon  have  to  say  about  it  should  ap|K'iir. 

.Mr.  Hodwell:— Whom  did  yon  see  then  after  you  had  your 
lunch?  \. —  I  met  a  friend  in  the  house  there  and  was  talk- 
iiiK  with  him  and  t'apt.  .McLean. 


r^ 


<J. — .\b'xand<-r  .McLean? 


-Yes,  sir. 


y.— That  man  sitting  there  (indicatiu);)?  .V.— Yes,  sir.  I 
was  siM>akin);  w^th  tills  man  and  he  rame  out  and  after  that 
he  asked  me  to  go  up  to  his  r(Miin,  and  I  went  up  to  his  room. 

H. — And  he  had  that  conversation  with  yon  there?  A. — 
Yes. 

H. — lUil  anybody  else  eonie  In?  A.— I  beliove  ♦'•ere  was, 
but  I  did  not  mind  who  it  was. 


m' 


fll 


i  1        ■  ■     t 


ll|M,i 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


Go 


648 

(MirliiH'l  H«-niult— U.'(liiv«t— U«>-eroH8.) 

ii. — Woiihl  .voii  kii«»w  hl»  niiiiH'  if  you     hi'iird    H?    A. — I 
(loii'l  know. 
y. — WiiH  lie  iiitrodiiet'd  to  ,von?    A. — Y«'h. 

(). — WllH   IliH   IlilllK-    ItOwlllIHl?      A. — I    fOllId    not    toll    .VOII.    I 

don't  n-nK'nilHT  the  nain<>. 

Q.— TIm'J  talk«'d  ><»  .voii  about  tin*  "('ar«)lenn"  eaw  and  wliat 
ywi  know  about  tin-  ciuum'h,  did  tlu-y  not?  A. — Thoy  nBkcd 
me  wliat  1  canii'  hero  for  and  I  told  tlioni  I  did  not  know,  I 
was  Hont  for,  and  llioy  aiskod  nio  what  I  could  buy  canocH  for. 

Q.— How  lonj;  did  the  convursation  last?      A.— Not  vory 

lODR'. 

Q.— IIow  did  it  brwik  up?  A.— I  had  to  go  down  and  find 
out  about  the  Hloamcr  to  the  office. 

Q. — Did  you  me  them  again?  A. — I  bw  them,  but  I  don't 
ndud  exactly  what  time  it  wau. 

Q. — Did  you  have  anything  to  driuk?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  have  anything  In'fore  you  went  up  to  thi» 
ro<mi?    A. — Yes,  sir,  1  hud  one  or  two. 

Q. — Who  pr(»]»OHed  the  drinkH?  A. — I  think  I  asked  for  the 
drinks  and  ('apt.  McLean  paid  for  it. 

Q. — Did  you  have  more  than  one  drink?  A. — I  think  I  had 
two  bef«»re  we  left  the  hoiise. 

Q. — Did  you  meet  (/'apt.  Mclican  after  that  night?  A.— 
Yes,  I  met  him  once. 

(i. — Have  any  more  drinks  with  him?  A. — That  I  don't 
mind;  I  don't  think  it  though.  Then  I  went  down  aboard 
the  boat,  at  least  I  met  ('apt.  UolK'rts  when  I  met  (.'apt.  Mc 
Lean  the  second  time.  He  said:  "I  wish  you  to  come  down 
and  sign  those  cheques  whicli  you  forgot  to  endorse."  So  I 
went  on  the  boat  and  j-ist  as  I  was  going  away  I  met  <'a]it. 
Irving  and  we  walked  up  and  nu't  Mr.  Munsits  and  all  at 
on»'e  I  said:  "I  am  going*  home,  I  feel  ill."  I  kind  of  fainted 
like.  Ko  the  (.'aptain  said:  "Take  a  carriage  and  take  liiin 
home."  I  understood  that  he  was  to  take  me  down  to  tin- 
hotel.  He  said:  "I  am  going  to  take  you  down  to  my  place; 
I  have  a  bedroom  and  a  g<M»d  fire,"  and  he  took  me  home. 

(i.— When  the  Indians  go  out  sealing  in  the  spring  on 
board  a  schooner  their  custom  is  to  have  their  «>wn  canoen.  is 
It  not?    A.— Y»'s,  sir. 

(J.— And  these  Indians  on  the  "(\irolena"  in  that  spring 
t«M>k  their  canoes?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  when  their  sealing  was  over  their  canoes  were 
lande<]?     A.— Certainly. 

Q. — nut  these  canoes  were  landed  for  tlM>  purpose  of  tak 
ing  white  hunters  out?     A. — Yes.  sir. 

Ue-crosscxandnation  by  Mr.  Dickins«iu: 

(2. — You  knew  (Japt.  McLean  up  the  coast,  did  you  no(? 
He  had  a  trading  post  there?  A. — 1  never  knew  he  had  a 
trading  iHist. 

H. — You  frequently  saw  him  there  and  were  jiersonally 
acquainted  with  him?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

ij. — You  bolli  knew  each  oilier  and  stayed  at  (he  same  liu 
tel?    A. — I  just  had  my  lunch  there. 

(i. — You  were  at  (he  Queen's  Hotel,  and  did  you  not  have  a 
room?      A. — No. 

il. — So  you  went  into  C'apt.  McLean's  room  did  vou?  A.- 
\o. 

Q. — What  room  was  i(?       \. — I  went  into  his  

(). — You  went  into  ('apt.  Mcl^ean's  room  on  his  invitation? 
.\. — Yes,  iMTtainly. 

(j.— Did  you  (ell  ('ap(.  McLean  on  (hat  occasiim  that  those 
canoes  were  worth  alM)u(  flo  that  were  put  on  board  (he 
"(;ar«»Tena '/"       .\. — Tha(   is  a  hard  cfuestion. 

Q.— Did  yon  tell  (^apt.  McU>an  in  his  room  at  the  hotel  that 


A.- 


I'H  were 
of  tak 


lo 


20 


30 


649 

(Mirhnt'l  HtTiiiilt — R«'(tohb.) 

(h«>  cniiocH  tliiit  MiiiiHic  buiit;lit  llitTi!  fur  (lu*  "(Janik'na"  wero 
worth  about  flo  apiece?  A. — If  I  can  Btate,  I  iniiHt  certain- 
ly Hay  no,  b<'caii8e  I  tuh)  liiiii  in  a  tlitTerent  way. 

Q. — Wliat  did  y«»ii  tell  him  about  the  fl5  at  this  time  wheu 
yttii  were  with  '.'aptain  McLean  in  hlH  room?  You  had  just 
met  him?      A.  -Yes. 

Q. — Yoti  had  not  had  any  drinkn  had  you?  A. — Well,  1 
won't  Hay  that. 

ii- — You  had  not  litul  any  with  t^ajtt.  McL«*an,  had  you?  A. 
— Yen,  that  wa.-t  the  iime  we  had  two  drinkn  before  we  went 
up. 

Q. — You  met  him  down  Htairn  in  the  hotel?      .\. — Y«'h,  nir. 

Q.— .\nd  you  nu»l  him  in  the  ottice  of  the  hotel,  did  you? 
A. — No,  in  the  bar  room. 

II. — You  wer<'  in  the  bar  room  yourHclf  were  you  to  >»et  n 
drink?  .\. — 1  wan  talkini;  with  an  old  frh'ud  I  happened  to 
WH'  th<'rp. 

Q. — Now.  in  the  room  upHtairH.  did  you  Bay  to  Tnpt.  Mc- 
Lean that  the  tanoefl  ]Mit  on  board  the  "t^ircdenn"  in  May 
were  worth  about  fl.^  apiece?  A. — We  spoke  about  can<»es 
you  8«'e 

Q. — l>id  you  t«ll  McLean  that?  A. — I  will  haw  to  Bay  no 
becauHc  the  way  the  converHation 

Q. — Just  tell  UB  what  you  did  Bay?  \. — Tie  aBked  nie 
what  canocB  could  be  bou;;ht  for  and  I  told  hlni  canoeH  could 
Ih>  bought  at  moHt  any  ]nice,  that  Ib  to  nay,  if  they  wanted  to 
Hell.       I  have  bouKht  canoes,  I  said,  from  flO  to  |15. 

Q. — \Yere  you  H])eakinK  then  of  the  can(M'B  that  went  on  the 
'Tarolena?"      A.— It  did  not  cover  that  way  at  all. 

Q. — Ib  there  anything  else  you  want  to  say  about  that?  A. 
We  were  talking;  about  the  prices  of  «-anoeH  and  thiuKH  like 
that.     I  had  boupht  very  nuiny  canoes  one  way  end  another. 

Q. — Tell  US  what  you  said  an«l  not  what  you  have  done.  A. 
— I  did  n«)t  mind  saying  that  to  him.  that  way. 

(J. — What  did  y«»u  say  about  the  can«M'8?  A. — Well,  I  did 
not  say  that  thoHe  <-anoeH — I  could  not  certainly  have  told 
them  they  wen  fl.'i,  I  don't  know  the  jtrice  of  tln'm.  I  Rot 
■^^   two  canoes  myself  nnd  I  paid  fl"»  for  tlu'm. 

Q.— The  same  kind?      A.— Smaller. 

ii. — How  mu«'h  smaller?      A. — CouHiderably. 

Q. — How  much  HUialler?      A. — Quite  a  bit  HUiallor. 

Q. — How  nuH'h?  A. — I  could  not  tell,  it  was  not  yester- 
day they  were  bout;hl. 

Q. — IMd  you  tell  liim  about  buying  a  canoe  for  Capt.  War- 
ren for  fS?      A.— I  don't  tliink  it.  not  for  fS. 

Q. — Did  you  tell  him  that  you  did  buy  a  canoe  of  this  same 
size  for  f'apt.  Warren  at  the  same  tinu'  tlu-se  cano<>H  wert; 
bought  for  the  "Carolena?"  A. — I  could  not  have  told  him 
that,  I  don't  tliink. 

Q. — You  do  not  think  ho,  will  you  swear  it,  whether  you  did 
tell  him  you  had  bought  a  canoe  of  the  same  kind  and  the 
same  size  as  these  that  went  on  the  "Carolena"  for  fS?  A. — 
I  don't  think  I  told  him  that. 

Q. — Hid  y«»u  buy  a  canoe  for  ('apt.  Warren  about  the  sunie 
time  that  these  canoes  were  bought  for  the  "Carolena'?"  A. 
— No,  lonjj  before  thiit. 

Q.— What  did  y»»u  pay  fm-  it?  .\.— I  bought  a  canoe  for 
myself  big  enouuii  to  hold  two. 

Q. — Did  you  buy  a  canoe  for  Capt.  Warren?  A. — I  sold 
it  to  Capt.  Warren,  I  bought  it  for  myself. 

Q.— .\nd  big  enongli  f«M'  two?      A.— .Iijst  for  duck  hunting. 

Q.— And  that  was  the  fS  cancM'  was  it?  .\.— No,  I  did  not 
pay  f8  for  it. 

Q.— Wan  the  «"anoe  an  large  as  the  canot'S  that  were 
bought  for  the  "Carolena?"      .\. — No. 


50 


60 


1!  «   ( 


i   i- 


! 


650 

(MicliiH'l  S«'riiiill— K«'-«linM-t.       T.   II.    Mrowii— Dii-«*ct.) 

y.— IM«1  .voii  H!i.v  it  wm  i»  <'iii»taiii  McLi-iiii?  A.— I  doii'l 
think  it. 

Q— Wht'iv  were  you  born,  witu«»8B?  A.— I  wiih  born  in 
Oregon. 

Q.— Are  .von  half  hlowl?  A.— I  nni  Ciinndian,  my  iKKiple 
aru  from  Montreal. 

10       He-direet  examination  r(>Hnmed  l>y  Mr.  Itodwell: 

Q. — I  want  to  usli  you  one  queMtion:  Did  you  know  Capt. 
M'-Lean  when  lie  «!ame  up  and  spoke  to  you  in  the  liotel?  A. 
—Not  for  a  minute,  not  till  he  t«>ld  me  who  he  was;  he  hard- 
ly knew  me;  it  had  been  yearn  Hinee  we  haul  met. 

Q.— He  was  not  a  |.artieular  friend  of  yours  ut  that  time? 
A. — We  were  pn'tty  good  friends  at  <»ne  tinu'. 

Ke-eroHs-exaniination  rcHumed  by  Mr.  IMrkinson: 

20  Q- — Vou  knew  eaeli  other  pretty  well  up  on  the  coast?  A. 
— I  got  ae(|uainted  with  him  upon  the  coast. 

y. — Knew  him  pretty  well  up  there?  A. — Just  friends 
like,  only  that. 

Q. — I  would  like  to  ask  you  jibout  whether  you  are  half  In- 
dian?     A. — N«»  sir  my  iH'0])le  were  born  in  M<mtreal. 

Q. — Were  they  Indians?  A.— How  do  1  know?  They 
might  have  stole  a  nuireli  4»n  me. 


30 


I|l!|l> 


40 


so 


60 


TTiomas  U.  lirown,  was  called  as  a  witness  on  the  part  of 
Orent  Hritnin,  ,'is  one  of  the  six  witnesses  to  be  examined  by 
the  t.'ommissioncrs'   direction,  and    was  duly   sworn. 

Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Bodwell- 

Q. — You'live  in  Victoria  West,  Mr.  Ilrown?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Were  you  out  senliug  in  18851?      A. — i  was. 

<i. — In  what  pchooner?      A. — The  "Mary  Ellen." 

Q. — Where  <lid  you  go?      A. — To  Retiring  Sea. 

Q.— What  cjipacity  did  you  fill  on  the  boat?      A. — Hunter. 

Q. — Do  you  know  what  tinu'  you  got  into  the  Sea?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — When?      A. — We  entered  on  the  3rd  of  July. 

Q. — How  long  did  you  stay?  A. — We  came  out  on  the  28th 
of  August  at  7  p.m. 

Q. — Did  you  keep  an  accoiint  of  the  seals  you  caught  that 
year?      A. — I  did  so. 

Q. — How  nuiny  did  you  get  in  the  Sea?  A. — 200  odd,  I 
think,  I  would  not  be  positive. 

Q. — fan  you  tell  by  looking  at  your  book?      A. — I  can. 

Q. — Will  you  look  and  see  the  exact  numlM'r  that  you  got 
and  are  you  now  looking  at  the  book  kept  by  you  at  the  t'lnwf 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Entru's  nnide  from  day  to  day?  A. — Prom  day  to 
day. 

(i. — Uy  yourself?     \. — Hy  myself. 

Q. — Looking  at  that  book,  will  you  state  the  exact  number 
of  seals  that  you  took  in  Behring  Sea?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

The  ('ommissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — What  year 
is  this? 

Mr.  Bodwell :— The  year  1889. 
Witness:— (Examining  booki — 270  odd. 


lo 


<5st 
(T.  II.  Hiown— l)ii«Ml— CnmH.) 

Q. — V«n  fiiii  givf  lilt'  t'Xiiel  iiiiiiibfr?  A. — No,  Hir,  it 
wuuld  takv  me  a  little  time  tu  flKure  it  uiit,  1  euiild  i;lve  it 
I'xauit. 

Q. — Will  you  figure  it  out  nftei'wnrda  und  give  uh  a  Mtatu- 
ment?      A. — YeH,  uir. 

Q. — II«»w  many  Immuh  did  the  "Mary  Ellen"  have  that  year? 
A. — Hhe  had  hIx  regular  huiitiug  ImjuIh  and  u  Hteru  boat. 

Q. — How  long  have  you  ln-en  engaged  uh  a  wal  hunter?  .\. 
— Nine  waHonH  in  the  IniHineHH,  eight  yearn  aH  a  hunter. 

(J. — You  iiave  IwH'n  aeeuNtomed  to  hunting  them  with  guuH? 

A. — With  guHH,  yes,  Hir. 

Q. — Will  you  Htate  from  your  e,\|M'ricnte  what  pereentage 
of  aealB  after  they  are  8l»»t?      A. — Not  over  4  pep  cent. 


y. 

1 

r 

1 

Croa8-exaniluation  by  Mr.  Warren: 

Q. — Captain  Alexander  M*  '^eau  wuh  eaptain  of  the  "Mary 
Ellen"  that  year,  was  he  not?     A. — Yew,  sir. 
20       Q. — You  Hay  you  entered  the  Hea  the  :{rd  day  of  July;  do 
you  know  the  tIrKt  day  you  lowered?     A. — Yen,  uir. 

(;.— On  the  l(»th  of  .liilv,  wan  it  not?    A.— No.  nir. 

U.— What  (hiy?     A.— The  Titli. 

li. — What  was  tln»  hint  day  you  lowerwl?     A. — The     25th 

AugUHt. 

Q. — You  Haid  you  eame  out  on  the  2Sth  Angunt.  but  yon 
low«'r«'<l  lant  «»n  the  2511)?     A. — Yes.  nir. 

'i- — Yon  eame  out  he<;iUH(>  the  Heanon  woh  over  ho  fai  aH 
you  know?  A. — Yes.  nir,  we  had  heard  of  s(>iKing  going  on 
•S*^'  previ<»UH  to  that. 

Q. — Some  tinu>  previous  to  that,  was  it  not?  A. — Yes.  sir 
I  think  the  first  intimation  we  heard  of  the  s<>i7.ures — 

Q. — We  will  not  go  into  these  di'tails.  You  do  not  mean 
to  nay  that  you  «'ame  out  of  Itehring  8ea  Ix'eause  you  heard 
of  the  seizuri's,  did  you?  A.— No.  I  would  not  say  it  wan 
that. 

Q. — Now,  witness,  commence  witli  ti'."  Ist  of  August  and 
tell  us  how  many  days  yon  lowere.l  that  month?  A. — In  the 
^o  nionth  of  AngnsI? 

Q. — Not  when  you  took  one  seal,  but  when  you  lowered 
your  boats  for  seals?  .\.— The  1st.  .^th.  «th,  7th.  Sth,  nth. 
I»th.  nth.  12th.  t;»h.  14th.  l.^ith.  inth,  2nth.  21st  and  2mh. 

Q. — On  the  5th  August  you  got  but  12  seals;  that  Is  so.  Is 
it?    A.— Y«'s,  sir. 

Q.— And  on  the  10th  you  got  0?    A.— Yes.  sir. 

Q.— And  on  the  12th  12?  A.— Y«'B.  sir.  and  we  took  1.25n 
skins  in  the  season. 
50  Q. — I  show  ycni  a  b<H)k  which  has  been  indentified  here,  and 
ask  you  if  1.2.^:1  skins  in  <'a|»t.  McL«'an's  book,  marked  for 
identification  No.  2.  does  not  exactly  agree  with  ('apt.  Mc- 
L<'an's  acccMint  of  it? 

Mr.  Hodwell: — I  d4»  not  know  as  that  is  a  <)uesti(m  that  can 
be  asked.  This  witn«'SH  is  asked  to  look  at  a  book  which  has 
beeen  identifi(>d,  which  lie  do«»s  not  know  anything  about,  and 
to  say  whether  or  not  his  account  Is  the  same  as  tlu>  aci-ount 
in  that  book.  The  book  s]M>aks  for  itself,  and  is  already  in 
fyQ  for  the  purpose  of  reference.  It  will  add  to  the  information 
«»f  the  court  to  have  liim  show  that  the  figures  he  has  given 
are  the  sjime  as  the  Ciilculation  thei-e.  because  that  is  already 
then'  and  in  the  |H>ssesHion  of  th«'  court.  '*' 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Does  it  make  any  diffewnee  whether  he 
makes  the  ('omparlson  or  noi? 

CroBH-examination  by  Mr.  Wnrren  continui'd: 


i"1 


!  '  ;i 


'•li'linj' 


I  I 


30 


(T.  FI.  Miown— CioHH.) 

Q. —  Ih  Unit  <')i|tliiiti  Mrl^'iin'H  writing  tttlMiwiiiK  wilii*-HH 
iMMtk)?     A. — I  ruiild  nut  wi.v  wlictlicr  it  in  or  ixit. 

Q. — llow  iiiaii.\  int'ii  in  «'juli  boat?  A. — Tlirw.  TIuto  wimt 
tlir«-<>  men  in  tlu*  liiintinK  boit,  tw«>  mm  iin«l  11  liiintcr. 

ly — And  tiM'.v  \v«'H'  wliilo  .'inntt'iH?     A. — While  liiiiitt-i-s. 

(2. — And  uwm!  mniH?     A. — Y«'h. 

ii. — Wlicn  yon  fjivt-  tli**  iK'rccntnjfOH  of  whIh  tliiit  were  limt 
10  Kliootin^  ,von  do  not  in<-]ndt'  tli«»H«>  tlint  \v«'r<>  Hliot  nt  a  ^icat 
distance,  wonndcil  and  tlun  jfot  awn.v?    A. — No.  mi: 

(j. — Yon  yoni-Helf  do  not  talie  nniny  i-lianeeH;  yon  hIiohI 
wniIh  at  Hliort  tliHtanee  only?  A. — Well,  I  tire  a  yood  nian.v 
i-iindtMn  Hliots. 

(j. — Out  of  KM)  HealH  tliat  yini  we,  liow  many  of  tliem  do 
you  »lioot  at  on  an  averajje?     A. — Wliat  iH  that  <|neRlinn7 

Q. — II(»w  many  HealH  do  yon  HhiNit  at  <nit  of  UN)  you 
Hte?     A. — How  many  Mealn  would  I  nhoot  at  out  of  HH)  that  I 

WH? 

20       i^. — What  I  am  ^''t'-'iK  "•  '«•  «'«•  y<»n  nhoot  at  every  Heal  you 
8e«'?     A. — Yen,  if  he  in  in  ran)>;e. 

(j. — You  Hee  a  fjreal  many  of  tliem  that  ai'«'  not  in  I'anp*? 
A. — Oh,  yen,  a  iiH'U\  many  of  them  that  an>  not  in  I'an^e. 

Q. — Loolt  at  tliiH  afYithivit,  Jli*.  Hrown,  and  ti>li  me  whether 
that  in  a  eopy  of  an  aflidavit  that  you  made  iHhowiiiK  witnens 
Vol.  H  of  the  American   Ite-print,  pa^e  (tol?       A. — (Kxamin 
injr)  YeH. 

(^ — 1  read  from  paraKi-aph  four  (»f  tliat  ailidavit.  and  asl< 
if  you  made  that  Htatem<-nt : 

"I  and  other  hunt<>rH  make  nure  that  we  are  clone  enoa;;li 
to  n  Heal  to  make  uh  reaHonably  certain  of  •;ettin};  it  before 
we  shoot  at  all." 

raruttraph  o.  "1  uhc  both  a  nliot  Kun  and  a  rifle,  bnt  neidoni 
a  ritte,  and  then  only  at  travelling;  nealn  on  a  calm  day,  and  a 
rifle  Ih  never  uned  except  when  n  Heal  in  too  far  awjiy  to  shoot 
with  a  Hhot  {;un.  I  didn't  kill  more  than  twelve  with  a  rifle 
this  year." 

I'ara^i'iiph  <>.  "I  slioot  at  a  Hlee]>in(;  Heal  when  about  i't 
yardn  away,  and  most  of  the  neals  we  net  are  Hlee|K'r8.  There 
is  no  chance  of  a  seal  Hinkin^  befon-  it  is  };ot,  if  only  one  is 
shot.  Hut  sometimes  wlien  two  are  to)reth«>r,  and  b(»tli  aie 
shot,  one  may  sink  while  we  are  afl<'r  the  other.  Most  of 
the  seals  I  lost  were  lost  in  tlilH  way." 

Parncraph  7.     "I  liavi    e.cry    year   seen    seals  in  schools 

both  south  of  t'ape  Flatte  y  and  north  alon^  the  coast  to  the 

Fairweatlier  (ironndn,  but  seals  are  very  hard  to  i;et  then; 

they  seem  to  be  on  flu*  look  r>ut.  and  if  one  shot  is  fired  J(ll 

50    make  away." 

Taratfraph  8.  "I  am  sure  tl.at  I  d(m't  nhoot  at  one  out  of 
fifty  seals  that  I  see — probabix  n»»t  one  out  of  a  liundred," 

Q. — Are  those  your  stntemeiits?     A. — Yes,  I  nuess  so. 

Q. — And  they  are  true?     A. — Yes. 

(j. — IMd  you  make  this  additional  statement  fcnind  in  para- 
graph  U\  of  that  affidavit:  "The  older  seals  are  harder  to 
get  than  tlie  young  ones,  and  the  fenniles  aiv  much  harder 
to  get  tlian  tlie  males?  Tlie  older  seals  aif  harder  to  gel 
60  than  the  young  ones."  Did  you  make  that  statement?  A. — 
I  don't  recollect  anything  about  that  statement  at  nil. 

Q. — Is  that  statement  true,  taking  just  this  part  of  it: 
"The  older  seals  are  harder  to  get  than  tlie  younger  ones," 
leaving  out  al)out  the  females?  .\. — No,  I  don't  know  as 
there  is  any  differcn<e. 

Q. — Do  you  not  kn«>w  that  is  true?       A. — No. 

Q. — In  the  total  catch  of  these  vessels,  and  particnlnrly  of 


40 


>}i 


('W  II.  Ilniwii— CioHH.) 

your  own,  nixl  if  .voii  know  lliiit  it  Ih  k<'I>*'>'<>II.v  trut>,  iir«>  hciiIh 
of  all  Mizt'H  iiiclu<l«'(l  in  tlio  total  nitcli?     A. — Y«'m. 

ii. — ilniy  |Hi|»H.  alonK  with  extra  lai'p'  niaU'  MualM?  A. — 
V«'H,  in  ni.v  total  catrh  tlii.v  an*  all  iiifluilod. 

(j. — Ho  far  aH  ,vou  know,  that  Ih  tlu-  p-ncral  iiiU*  aiuon);  tin* 
NcalinK  captainH?    A. — Yt>H,  aH  far  an  I  know. 

H. — ThfiT'  «!•('  Honu'  (ira.v  pnpH  Hliot  I  Nii|t]MiH('?  A.— Y«'h. 
lu  Q. — An«l  HoniftinicH  a  ronHidcrahl*-  niitiilM'r  of  tlu'ni?  A. — 
VfH,  I  liav«>  Hn>n  quite  a  few  tivny  pupH  Hluit. 

(i. — Tlie,v  fivi  NonielinieH  KM)  or  l.'id  of  llieui  in  a  voyap-  in 
Itehrini;  Hea,  do  tlie.v  n«»l?  A. — Well,  no,  I  couldn't  na.v  that 
for  Itehrin^  Sea. 

Q. — lneludin<;  the  epper  eoant  eateli  and  Itehrin^'  Kea  they 
nuuht  nvt  that  many  if  tliey  ean^ht  ItH)  on  the  whol«>  tri]»? 
.V. — \V«'II,  yeH.  it  would  be  altont  KM),  I  hIiouM  say. 

Q. — KM»  pn|m  out  of  every  1,(>0()  in  the  catch  from  Victoria 
np  to  Helirin^  Sea  and  back,  ineludiuK,  of  course,  the  rp]H>r 
20  <'„iist  catch;  in  that  ri«hl?      A.— Ych. 

Q. — Then  about  10  p<  r  cent,  of  the  total  catch  of  the  Heals 
are  gray  pupH,  and  Hpeakiiif;  H]>eciflcially  of  thin  upper  coant 
catch  and  ItehriuK  Sea?      A. — Y«'H,  an  a  rule. 

Q. — Are  brown  pupH  included  In  the  Hame  way  hh  gray 
|>upH  in  the  catch?  A. — W«'ll.  there  is  no  diHtinction  made 
in  making  the  (>ntrieH. 

Q.— Are  they  included  in  the  total  amount?  .\.— They 
would  be  included  in  the  total,  yen. 

ii. — .\h  I  understand  it  tiiere  ar(>  not  any  bla<k  |Mips 
^'^   taken  in  any  quantity?      A. — No. 

Q. — Then  in  tlu'  total  catch  in  Kehring  Sea.  when  a  ca])tain, 
or  any  other  Healing  man  returns  the  total  catch,  there  would 
be  included  all  seals,  wig$<,  (>xtrn  large,  large,  middling,  med- 
ium, small,  gray  pups,  brown  pups  and  black  pu|)s:  is  that 
so?      A. — They  make  a  memorandum  of  it  all. 

The  rommissjoner  on  the  part    of  Iler  Majesty: — I  think 
possibly,  with  reference  to  what  he  said  before,  you  conid  not 
iiK-ludo  black  pups  !n  your  question,  because  it  is  put  as  a 
4°  stat(>ment  of  what  he  said. 

(i.— Did  you  take  any  hair  seals  in  IXW),  can  you  tell  by 
y«»ur  bookH?  A. — We  dcni't  enter  them  with  the  fur  seal  at 
nil;  there  might  have  been  two  or  three  shot. 

(j. — Y«»u  took  them  in  and  ]Mit  them  in  your  vessel,  how- 
ever?     A. — Yes,  we  iniglil  tak«'  them  aboard  the  vessel. 

Q. — What  boat  wen*  yt>u  on  in  ISUtt,  Mr.  Brown?  A. — Thu 
".Maggi*'  Mac." 

ii. — How  many  boats  did  the  "Maggie  Mac"  luive?  .\.-- 
50  She  had  tive  r«>uular  hunting  boats,  and  a  stern  boat. 

ii. — What  was  the  tonnage  of  the  "Maggie  Mac?"  .\. — 
71)  t(niH. 

ii. — Have  you  the  entries  for  the  "Maggie  .Mac"  in  that 
l)ook?      A. — I  have. 

(Witness  produces  the  memorandum  with  reference  to  the 
ciitcli  «»f  the  ".Maggi*'  Mac"  in  Hehring  Sea  for  the  months 
of  ,Iuly  and  August,  1890.) 

ii. — Referring  to  that  book  which  yon  hav»'  produc<>d,  Mr. 
lb-own,  will  you  tell  the  (\)mmissioners  how  many  seals  the 
•jo  "Maggie  Mac"  to(»k  in  H»'hring  Sea  in  the  month  of  July, 
lS!tO?      A.— tfi/. 

ii. — And  she  had  (ive  boats  and  a  stern  boat?      A. — Yes. 

Q.— And  whit.«  hunterH?      .\.— White  hunters 

(J.— Armed  with  guns?      A.— Armed  with  gnus. 

Q.— Three  men  in  a  boat  A.— With  the  exception  of  the 
stern  boat. 

Q.— What  dav  did  von  tirsi  lower  in  .Inly  in  ISJM)?  A.— 
The  15th. 


''*!''! 


Ill' 


20 


40 


60 


A.— I  d«»irt 
A. — lltTc  in 


654 

(T.    il.   Ui»wn— ("loHH— l^•(lim•t.) 

y.— Whiil  wiiH  Ihc  fulfil  of  llif  "MiikkIi'  Mm"  for  AiiKiiHt 
of  that  >»'iir  ill  ItfliriiiK  Kni?  A.— «7S.  Tliiit  iiiiikt'H  licr 
loin!  inltli  S45. 

Q. — Wlint  wnH  tin*  tirnl  yt-ar  voii  w«'iv  in  llic  H«'ii,  Mr. 
llr«»wn?      A.— IKH8. 

i^.— Wlial  lioal  were  vi n?      A.— Tlic  "MaKKi**  Mar." 

t/. — Von  liavf  iMfii  ill  lln-  Hni  cvcrv  .vear  hJiicc  lliat  .vciir 
lliiil  yon  could  p>  ill?      A. — Vch,  I  liavi'  Ih>«'Ii  tli«'r«'  Hiiit't'. 

(i.— Von  wi'i«'  tln'i«'  in  IHsn  and  IsiJO,  of  «oiii-h»'?  A.— I 
waH. 

(/. — lUi  tlic  HcalhiK  CaitlaiiiM  piin-liam'  NcalH  on  llu>  IiouIh  or 
iinywIuM'*'  i'Ihi'  from  tlit'  liidiaiiH  daring  IIh'H«'  vo^iiki'm?  A. — 
No,  not  to  iii,v  kiiowlfdp'. 

(j. — \Vli<'r<>  ai'(>  tli(>  NkiiiH  bon^lit  from  tli)>  IndiaiiH  iMircluiH- 
«'d,  hfvv  in  Viclnria,  .»r  wlirrt'?      A. —  In  Victoria,  I  lliiiik. 

(j. — Do  not  llic  vchhcIh  wliicli  Hlop  in  Aii};iiHt  hiiy  HkiiiH  off 
tlic  IndiaiiH?      A. —  No,  Hir,  not  tliat  I  know  of. 

(J. — l>o  tlif.v  hn.v  liiiir  hciiIh  lien'  in  Victoria? 
know,  I  am  Hiirc. 

Q. — TIm'.v  wo'ild  not  do  tliat,  would  tlu'.v? 
Victoria?  " 

Q._Y«.8.      A.— 1  really  Couldn't  tell  yon. 

Q. — Von  do  not  know  of  aiiv  hiicIi  |tractic(>  an  tliat,  do  you? 
A.— No. 

Q. — And  if  a  larfji'  nnnilM'r  of  hair  hcuIk  nr«>  caught  or  re- 
ported each  year,  tlu'y  niiiHt  come  fnmi  otT  tlie  veHB«'lB;  is  that 
what  yon  think  about  it?      A. — 

^°       Mr.  I'etei-H: — That  Im  a  mere  t|UcHtioii  of  nrpiment. 

\. — Well,  I  know  in  my  ex|icriciice  in  Healing;,  we  never 
hmiiKlit  any  hair  walH  here  for  xale. 

Ue  direct  exaniinaiion  hy  Mr.  Itodwell: 

Q.— What  kind  of  weather  did  yon  have  in  1H!M>?  A.— The 
weather  was  nor  very  nood  in  ISJUK 

(j. — In  IliiH  aflldavit  that  yon  have  heeii  tinked  alHiut,  I  oeo 
that  ill  |(ara|;rapli  three  yon  Hiate  that  y«iu  have  kept  an  a<-- 
4-uuiit  hook  of  tlu>  number  of  HkiiiH  yon  loHt  liy  Hinkini;.  Ih 
this  your  stalemcnt.  "I  have  kept  count  eacli  year  of  the 
number  of  wuIm  I  have  kilhd.  In  \SH'.)  I  p>t  .170,  and  hmt 
U*M8  than  Hcven  or  eiKht.  I  am  Hure  there  were  Ichh  than  that 
number  loBt  by  sinking,  but  will  say  eiifht,  ho  that  I  can  safe- 
ly Hw«-ar  to  it.  In  tSOO  I  p»t  '.\HH  skinH,  and  bml  Ity  HinkinK 
11'  m(>:iIh.  \A\Ht  year  I  (loi  X'A  Hkinn,  and  loHt  1(1  by  ttinkiiiK. 
ThiH  year  I  ff»i  .'US  Mkins,  and  hint  by  Hinking  seven  Heals.  I 
kejtt  count  of  (lie  number  that  sank,  and  know  exactly.  I 
S^  considi'r  that  no  average  hunter  ought  to  lose  more  than  I 
have  lost." 

(i. — Do  you  keep  account?     \. — I  do. 

(i.— Fs  that  correct  with  your  acconnt?  A.— That  is  cor- 
rect. 

Q. — Have  yon  got  tlie  acconnt  now?     A. — No. 

(i — Hut  that  was  made  at  the  time?     .\. — Yt^t. 

(}. — Do  yon  p't  many  gray  piijw  in  Iti'hring  K»'a?  A. — Not 
many. 

Q.— (>f  what  clnss  is  the  Behring  Sea  catch  «•  Jinjwsed  of? 
A  — Well,  as  a  rule  they  are  a  large  seal. 

tj. — Do  you  remember  yourself  of  ever  g<>tting  a  gray  pup 
in  ISeliriiig  Sea?     A. — No,  I  can't  reinember. 

Q.— The  gray  pups  are  caught  on  the  coast,  are  tht'y?  A. 
— .\s  a  rule,  yes. 

Tlie  ('uiniiiissioners  then  took  recesH. 


lO 


20 


155 

(T.  II.   HiHiwii— IU*(lh«it— UccioHH.) 

A(   m'M)  p.l'l.   tilt*  CuinilliHNioUCI'H   |-fHIIIIIC«l   llll'll-  HCIltH. 

Kt'tliici-I  txauiiuatiuu  uf  Ml*.  Itiuwu  c«iutiuiii>d  Uy  Mi-.  Hod- 
well: 

Ij.— lliivc  .vou  found  tlu'  place  in  your  lug  MJiowihi:  (lit'  date 
on  wliich  y>\i  Hrnt  lu'ard  «»f  any  NcizuiVH?    A. — Y<'s,  h\}'. 

(j— Xv'luit  waH  it?      A.— (KxaiiiiHin(j()  :::ti-d  of  AiikiimI. 

(J. — llavi'  .vou  any  uolc  of  tlu-  iiuinlu'r  of  wah  y<tii  raii{{lit 
(liiit  day?    A. — (KxaniiniuK)  Wr  ditln't  hunt  that  day. 

li.— r>id  you  hunt  tin-  day  bffoit  ?     A.— Tlii"  -MhI. 

(2. — How  many  did  you  jfcl  on  Hi"  2l8t?    A. — 'Jl. 

<j.  -tH  lliat  your  own  boat?  A. — N«t,  tlif  total  catili.  I 
iitti  t-iX. 

(i.--II.>w  lonj;  did  you  Htay  in  tli«'  Swi  after  tli;-  :!:Jrd?  A. 
— \\'*-  eaiiK-  out  on  the  l!S,n. 

(i.—  »»id  you  do  any  iiiou  Healing?  A. — We  ouly  «enled 
one  day  after  tlial,  the  I'.'ilii. 

(i.— When'  did  you  d«»  that  Htalinj;  on  tin'  •J.'itli?  A.— Tliat 
wuH  eloNe  to  Hie  I'iihn — Four  .Mountain  I'aHH. 

II. — Tile  Meizure  of  wliat  HeluMtiui-M  did  y«Mi  hear?  A. — On 
tliat  day  we  Hpoke — 

(j. — Nev«'r  iiiiiitl  what  you  di<l.  What  selioonerH  di«l  you 
liear  liad  lieen  selsjed?  A. — The  "Minnie,"  "niael\  Diamond" 
and  "rathflnder." 

KeeroHs  examination  by  Mr.  Warren: 

,^  Q. — Uef«>rrinK  to  thin  iiiemoraiidtim,  from  wliieh  you  re- 
freuhed  your  reeolleetioiiH  aH  to  tlie  date  wiieii  you  8|M)ke  tht* 
m-hoouefH  that  informed  you  tliat  oilier  Hi-hooneiH  iiad  b«'en 
Meized,  I  will  unk  you  if  tliat  in  tlie  log  of  the  "Mary  Klh-n"? 
,\. — No,  that  ain't  tlu-  lo}(,  that  is  my  own  pei'Hoiial  journal 
tliat  I  kept  of  the  trip,  the  state  of  the  weather,  th"  number 
of  HealH,  and  th"  veHseItt  we  had  spoken  on  that  day 

(j. — I  show  yon  the  lo^  of  tlie  "Mary  Klleii."  Is  that  the 
loj{  of  the  "Mary  Kllen"  that  I  have  in  my  haiidH?  A. — (Ex- 
iiiiiinin^)  I  eouldn't  Nay;  i  didn't  Hee  the  loj;.     I   would  nay 

4^)  that  thlH  is  Captain  MelA-an'ri  writing. 

(^ — It  HayH  in  thin  iiienioraiidiim  under  date  of  the  2:trd  of 
Au^'UHt,  niiitm);  oilier  tliin^H,  that  tiie  "Itlaek  IMamond"  li.id 
Hpokeii  you,  and  reported  that  Hlie  had  H|N)ken  the  "Tiiei-cHa," 
who  reported  that  Hlie  had  not  been  doin^;  mneli  Healing?  .\. 
— She  litid  not  Imh-ii  doiii);  miirli. 

Ij. — Now.  this  morning;  you  told  me  that  you  did  not  elaiiii 
you  left  the  Kia  in  l.tsfj,  becauHc  you  were  warned  eiit. 

The  ('ommiHHioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — He 
jo  lij>**  »*>(  slated  tliat  on  re-croHH-examination. 

Mr.  Warren: — Tliese  facts  put  in  this  c<mnection  tend  to 
leave  that  impresHion. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — He 
diM'H  not  Miiy  that  now;  he  ineivly  pive  what  was  in  tlie  mem- 
onindum  iHuik. 

Hin'ct  examination  by  Mr.  Itodwell: 

I  omittetl  to  ask  this  m«u'nin)r  about  tlie  latter  days 
60  of  tlu>  s«'as<»ii  of  IH'M).  and  ask  the  court  for  the  ri^ht 
to  interfere.  This  one  witness  has  told  about  a  catch  the 
last  day,  the  Uotli  of  AuKUst,  IWMt.  Do  you  then  refer  to  the 
iiiemonindum  wlii«-li  you  have  of  the  "Ma}?)?'«'  Mac"  of  the 
year  ISOO,  and  tell  tlie  fomuiissioners  lu»w  many  seals  you 
look  the  22nd  day  of  Aunust.  1S!K>?  A.— This  is  the  latter 
part  of  .Vii^iist;  w«'  were  down  clos<'  to  the  I'ass.  The  22iid 
we  took  4!»:  the  2;{rd,  H»7;  24tli.  11 ;  25111.  :«;  27th,  4;  28th,  .17; 
2»th,  8;  30th,  S). 


:i 


'] 


M:         .      'I- 


r 


i 


!1 


'l|i>i 


I 


lO 


20 


30 


656 

(T.  II.  lifowii— K«'-froHH — Uctlii-fft.) 

(j.— Tlif  vcHM'l  look  lliiit?     A.— Tliiit  iH  tlif  totiil  nitcli. 

Ij. — TluTf  wciiiH  to  Ih-  HOIII4*  iiilHlakc  in  tli«'  i-titrli  yoii  liiiv«> 
ftivt'ii  fur  IHjH),  uiid  till-  iiifoniiatitiii  wr  liiivi*  it'liitiv*-  to  tliiit. 
Will  .vtiii  jiiHt  fcNtt  up  tlioM'  tl);iii'*>H  iin«l  »•<'  if  thcif  Ih  not  a 
iiiiHtal«-  III  III*'  footing?      A.— (roiii|iiiliiiKi  Not  n  iniHlakf. 

Q. — How  ili«l  you  K«'t  tlit>  iiifoniiatioii  ii|)oii  wliicli  .voii  put 
tlii'Mi'  IlKui'fH  in  .vour  hiMtk  for  an,v  fUlt'li  t'Xrt'pt  your  own? 
A. — From  tlu'  liuntcr  fv«'r.v  «la.v. 

Q. — And  tlM'w  <>n1ri«'H  ar«'  nui«l«>  «'Vt'r.v  da.v?  A. — Tliom> 
cntrirM  ar»'  nuidf  I'vi-r.v  da.v. 

ij.— And  thJH  t>nlrv  of  tlit>  L':trd  of  Auf;uNt,  \HHU.  how  did 
you  p>t  I'nat  fart  that  ,vou  put  down  here?  A. —  I  wuh  on 
board  of  tl I.illii'  I.."  at  lli«>  tini<>. 

(j. — You  w<>r<>  aHk)'d  wlu-tlu'r  you  had  an  *>ntry  hi-rr  of  liic 
HkiuH  on  till*  "Mlanif."  II:ivi>you  an  cniry  of  tlw  HkiuH  on  Hit- 
"hillif  L."  aT  Tliat  linn-?      A.— Ych. 

(J.— What  wan  It?       A.— .'MM). 

Mr.  Ilodwt'll: — I  dcHire  to  hav<>  tla-m'  hookH  marked  for  idt>u- 
titiration. 

The  t.'ommJHHituH'r  on  th*>  part  of  llcr  Majt-Hty: — I  think  it 
would  In'  ronipi'l«>nt  for  uh  to  ItMtk  at  them.  |H-rluipH,  to  t'luri- 
dale  Homf'thiuK  in  tlic  tcHlimony.  Ordinarily  pa|M'rM  ar<>  mark- 
ed for  idcntriii-ation  so  that  they  i-an  Ih*  aflerwardH  lookt'd  ut. 

The  t'omniiHiiiom'r  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  StateH: —  \\'< 
ou^ht  to  know  wliether  a  hook  Ih  in  tlie  eane  or  not. 

Mr.  Itodwell: — I  would  a8k  to  have  them  marked  aH  exhibitti 
if  there  Ih  to  Im>  any  doubt  about  them.  iiH  «>therwiHe  it  mitjht 
bo  very  awkward  for  us. 

The  Commitwioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  Rtateg: — Do 
you  offer  th«'  bookH? 

Mr.  Modwell: — Yen,  your  ITonour. 

l.otr  book.  Mi-liooner  ".Ma^K>*'  -Ma*-,"  Virloria,  iveeived  and 
**      mark«'«l  Kxhibit  "'2H  <S.H." 

Kecord  book  of  witiieHH  Itrown  reeeived  and  markeil  IC.x- 
hibit  "'2\i  (M«." 

Crossexamin.ation  continued  by  Mr.  \Vnrren: 

Q. — If  the  "Mary  Eileu"  >va8  ul  latitude  6-1,  55,  and  longi- 
tude lliti  .41)  on  the  ::i)th  of  AufiUHt.  IMS!),  will  yuu  tell  the 
CommiMsionerH  how  far  that  would  Ih'  from  Uniinak  I'aHM. 
You  went  out  of  that  paHH  did  you  not?  A. — No.  we  eame 
out  of  Four  Mountain  I'aHs. 

y. — How  far  is  that  from  rniniak  I'nss?  A. — (Examining 
i-hart.)  About  3t)  miles:  that  in  a  rough  euleulation,  you 
know. 

K«'-direet  examination  roiitinuetl  by  Mr.  ltodw«'ll: 

Q. — Was  that  good  sealing  ground  there  elooe  to  the  pass? 
A.— Xo.  8ir. 

Q. — That  is  wliere  you  were?  A. — Oh.  I  don't  know  about 
that  {Htsition;  we  did  not  come  out  of  Tniinak  pass;  we  i>amu 
out  of  Four  Mountain  Pass;  1  remember  distinctly  wheu  we 
came  «)ut  there. 

Q. — How  do  you  remendn'r  that  you  came  out  of  Four 
Mountain  Pass?  A. — On  account  of  this  re«'f;  the  wind  was 
from  the  southwest  from  the  time,  and  the  weather  was  quite 
dirty,  tind  the  captain  wiu-  anxious  to  get  out  by  this  rtH'f  be- 
fore dark. 


5-J 


Co 


lO 


20 


30 


657 

(T.  II.  itrnwii— K«> ilincf.     <'litir1iH  lla«k<-)l— hin-tl.) 

Q.— Cun  you  lay  (hat  rii'f  down  011  the  cliart?  (WKih-hh 
iiidk'att'H.) 

(^— It  Ih  tb<>  I'ci'f  -itr  HainalKu  iHlamI,  Ih  it  not?  A.— Vt-H. 
nir. 

Q. — Do  yon  n'in«>inlM>r  Iiow  Ume  ,v«»ii  were  afti-r  yoii  );ot  out 
of  th«'  puHH  tN-fort'  you  i^ot  to  Hand  I'oint ;  do  your  lioitltH 
ttliow?  A. — My  iHtok  would  hIiow;  (Iii>  flrat  of  HcptonilH-r  wi> 
arrivtil  at  Hand  I'oint. 

Q. — What  waH  tho  ordinary  runniuK  (inic  'roni  Tninuik 
I'ara  to  RnmnlKn. 

Tho  ConimlH.sionor  on  the  part  of  the  Unitod  Hliiti'n:— Wlial 
iHtlitTt'  in  tiM'  ('.\iunii>ati<in  of  Mr.  lN)dwci|  dial  juHtifliN  tliis? 

Mr.  Itodw«'ll: — Mr.  Wnrn-n.  for  hoiui-  |MirpoH<>,  hroii^lit  oul 
of  thiH  witni>«*H  that  llir  loratioii  of  tli«>  nhip  at  a  crrtiiin  dal*' 
waH  .'to  niiifH  north  of  rniniak  INihh. 

The  roniniiHHion<>r  on  i]u'  ftart  of  the  Fnitt  d  HtntoH:— Tliat 
waH  only  a  Rinipio  (vi''"Mon  of  how  far  mich  a  point  by  iati 
tude  antl  longitude  irt  rrom  tlH>  PaHH. 

Mr.  Ilodwcll: — Thon  I  will  UHk  th<>  witncHH  tliiH  ipH'Htion: 
Oivcn  th«'  |»oHition  atioiit  .tO  niih'H  noHh  of  Hiimal^a  iHland, 
whi'ii'  would  it  li"  ly  la(ilwd«>  and  l<in|.'itud«>  on  tlic  rluirl — on 
whnt  meridian  vi  lonititudo  would  it  Im>?     A. — lOU. 

(^ — And  it  would  b<>  Ix'twoon  n.'t  :ind  r>4  north  latiludf?    A. 
II  would. 
Q. — And  pretty  nearlv  54?    A. — No,  it  would  bo  nearer  Kl. 

('rofH-t'xaniinaiion  by  Mr.  Warren: 

Q. — You  cannot  (ell  by  your  iNiokM  at  >'.1iat  hour  on  Hep- 
teuilH'r  flrst  you  arrived  at  Hand  I'oint?     A. — No.  Kir. 

it. — Whether  i(  wan  niidni!;li(  «»f  Hep(enilM'r  (lrK(  or  not? 
A. — No,  1  would  not  be  (HtBitive. 


40 


Alexander  Itepptn  was  railed  an  a  witnefM  «»n  tiie  part  of 
Oreat  Hritaiu,  and  beiuf;  duly  Mworu,  wuh  exauiiued  by  (uui- 
Heut  of  e«MinHel  out  of  order,  with  reference  to  ciaiuia  wliich 
will  be  tukeu  ny  hereafter. 


50 


60 


(^'harles  Haekett  was  called  as  a  witness  on  the  part  of 
<ii*Ml  Itritain  as  <uie  of  tlie  six  witnesHes  allowed  to  Ih'  called 
under  the  ruling  of  tiH>  ( NunniisHiiuiers,  and  duly  sworn. 

Direct  exauiinntion  by  Mr.  Iteiqiie: 

Mr.  Heique: — This  witness  will  be  examined  as  to  1888  and 
IS'M). 

Q.— You  were  on  the  "Annie  C.  Moore"  iu  1889?  A.— Yes, 
sir. 

<i. — As  master  of  the  vessel?     A. — Master  »»f  the  vessel. 

Q. — Did  you  no  into  Iteliriug  Hea?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  seal  on  the  coast  before?     A. — Y<s,  sir. 

Q. — Did  ytui  ki'ep  a  daily  record  «if  tlie  latch?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q. — Have  you  got  it  with  you?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

42 


n^~~^ 


I!  ■< ...  I 


'tii'iji 


lO 


20 


658 

(J Miarh'H  Ha«kH t— I Hif«t.) 

Q. — Will  yoii  refiT  to  thf  re«'ord  thiit  vou  kept  tliorc  day 
b.v  day  and  jjive  u«  tin*  dally  i-ateh  or  1)SW»?  A. — For  Hehr- 
iiiK  Sea? 

Q. — Oive  it  on  tlic  roaHt  flrHt  and  tin  u  Iti'i-.rinir  Sea? 

Mr.    LaiiHiMK: — Would    it    not  Ite  well  to  put  in  thf  nam 

her  of  hoatR  and  men  tirst? 

Q. — What  nunib«'r  of  boatH  had  ytiu?  A. — I  had  six  boatw 
and  the  wtem  boat. 

Q. — WaH  the  Htt'rn  boat  iun<'h  iiwd?     A. — Not  much. 

Q. — What  erew  had  you,  white  or  Indians?     A. — White. 

Q. — How  many  men?      .\. — 2a  men  all  tcdd. 

Q. — Will  ycMi  now  jiiv<>  uh  the  daily  eatcli,  first  on  the  coaHt, 
and  then  in  Itehrin^  Sea,  for  ISHD?  \. — Do  you  want  me  to 
tfo  ov«'r  the  whole  of  it.  sir? 

Q. — YeH.  the  dailv  catch?  .\. — February  7tb,  5  Heals;  rttli, 
2;  10th.  32;  11th,  7;  17tli.  2;  ISth.  44;  21st",  V*^;  '-•'»«h,  Ifi;  that, 
iH  to  the  end  of  February.  March  4th.  2;  nth.  4;  7th,  11 ;  Stli, 
*)■,  inth,  10;  nth.  10;  l.m.  11;  ir.th,  fi;  Ififh.  10;  2lRt,  fi;  22nd, 
2;  24th,  23;  2.')th.  1.1;  2fith.  20;  27th.  2;  28th.  8;  .'ilst.  23.  .\nril 


4(h.  4;flth.  12;  11th,  k 
3;  loth,  12;2r.th.  2. 


i;  i:Uh.  .1;  ir.th.  1;  Ifith, 
Mav  7th,  20— 


5;  17th.  4;  18tl. 


40 


Mr.  LauHin;;: — I  would  like  to  know,  Mr.  n«'ique,  the  obje<  t 
of  the  c«»a8t  catch  for  1889  going  in;  there  is  no  claim  for  't, 
is  there,  in  any  case? 

Mr.  Ueitjue: — We  ha.ye  lost  the  season  for  1887.  the  whole 
3°  season,  tlie  coast  catch  as  well  as  the  Behriug  Sea  catch. 

Mr.  Lansing:— This  is  1889. 

Mr.  Heique: — The  limit  that  is  agi*eed  upon  is  up  (o  iSOI. 

(To  witness):— <So  on,  Captain.  A.— 8(h,  4;  Oth,  22;  lOlh.  S; 
ILMI1.  85;  I.Uh.  14;  14th.  .'«>;  ISth,  fi8;  Ifith,  51;  18th,  1«;  'J.^lh. 
4«;  27th.  5;  20th,  13;  aotli,  12.  June  2nd,  1 1 ;  4th,  U;  10th,  ;{ti; 
21st,  8. 

(i. — Was  that  the  whole  of  the  coast  <'atch?  A. — The  whole 
of  the  coast  catch. 

Q. — ran  you  give  the  Itehring  Sea  catch  for  the  same  »•  -ar? 
A.— .Tuly  fith.  0«;  0th,  20;  llth,  120;  12th,  38;  10th,  fi5; '2211.1, 
55;  25th,  78;  28rh,  .->0;  20tli.  r2;  301h,  170.  Au^'ust  iith.  77; 
fith,  152;  7th,  18;  Mh.  20;  Olh,  10;  10th,  fi-  11th,  44;  llth.  115: 
15ih   S>7;  Ifith.  40;  ii.tal.  I,::ifi  in  Itehring  Sea. 

(i. — How  sooH  after  the  Ifith  did  y«Hi  leaye  Itehring  Sea? 
A. — I  cam*'  out  of  Itehring  Sea  on  the  22nd  of  August. 

Q. — What  kind  of  weatlier  had  you  from  the  Ifith  to  the 
22nd?     .\. — It  was  not  fayorable  for  sealing. 

Q. — I  iM'lieye  you  sealed  iu  Itehring  Sea  in  1800  on  the  saiiif 
scJHMUier?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  were  there  a  part  of  July  and  |>art  of  August?  A. 
— Yes.  sir. 

(}. — You  renienilHM'  what  parts  of  each  month  you  wen- 
there?  .\. — I  think  I  hare  got  that;  I  slart<Hl  sealing  on  the 
8th  of  July.sir. 

Q. — And  you  HMiuiiutHl  in  the  Sea  up  to  what  time?  \. — I 
gaye  up  s<>alinu  on  the  llth  of  .\ugust. 

Q.— What  kind  of  weather  had  you  in  1800  in  Itehring  Sea? 
A. — The  weatluT  was  pretty  bad  in  1800. 

Q. — How  did  it  omipare  with  tlu'  weather  that  you  had  in 
1880,  better  or  worse?  A.— Well,  in  July.  188JK  we  sealed  10 
days;  in  1800  we  sealed  11  days. 

Q.— And  how  did  August,  1880,  comi»are  with  Auguss  189ti» 
A. — Only  four  days. 

The  ('omnii8sion«T  on  the  part  of  'ler  Majesty:— How  juau^- 
days  did  you  have  In  August,  1880?     A.— Eleyen,  sir. 


50 


60 


10 


20 


30 


40 


50 


Oo 


659 

(CharU'H  Ilackt'tl — CrosH.) 
CruBS-exuminiitiun  b>-  Mr.  LaiiBiu^: 

(i. — When  did  you  Htu|i  tiealiu(j;  iu  IWIO,  caittaiu?  A. — 
..U);u8t  11th. 

Q. — And  tliat  was  about  10  days'  earlii-r  than  you  did  iu 
1889?      A.— Yt'H. 

Q. — Did  you  stop  s*-uling  then  on  atri'onnt  of  bad  Wfathor? 
A.— Yes. 

Q. — And  .von  slopped  in  ISH!)  on  .t lie  same  account?  A. — 
No,  I  was  afraid  of  seizure  in  188!). 

Q. — When  did  .von  first  hear  tliat  seizures  were  bi'infj  made 
in  1880?  A.— Oh,  1  can't  just  exactly  tell  you  when  1  first 
heard  of  it;  I  was  always  afraid  of  it  from  tlil«  tinu*  I  t-ntered. 

Q. — There  had  nor  b<'<'n  any  seizures  made  in  1888,  had 
thert!?  A. — 1  think  there  was;  wasn't  flu>re?  I  don't  just 
rememlKM'  but  we  have  always  been  afraid  of  it,  yo;i  know 
from  the  start. 

Q. — From  what  vessels  did  you  hear  It?  A. — 1  heard  it 
from  sev«'ral  vessels  in  Itehrini;  Bea. 

Q.— What  veswls  did  you  siH-ak?  A.— Well,  1  didn't  just 
remember  now  who  they  were. 

Q. — Can  you  name  any  captain  that  told  you  of  a  st'izure? 
A. — I  rememlM'r  one  who  told  me  he  thought  he  saw  a  lM>af 
after  him. 

Q. — Who  wa.s  it?  A. — lie  is  dead  now;  |ierha]m  it  mifiht 
be  as  well  not  to  mention  it.  It  was  Captain  Dodd,  of  the 
"MapRie  Mac. 

Q. — When  was  that?     A. — That  was  about  the  first  of  An- 

RMSt. 

Q. — And  you  stayed  in  three  weeks  after  that?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — And  then  left  for  fear  of  seizure?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — The  weather  had  nothing  to  do  with  it?      A. — No. 

Q. — When  you  sp<'ak  of  bad  weather,  I  suppos*-  you  refer 
merely  to  just  wliat  you  ex|M'rienc«'d  in  a  certain  locality,  and 
not  to  the  general  weather  fw  the  season?  A.— When  we 
have  bad  weatlu-r  in  llehriuK  Sea  it  is  generally  all  over. 

Q._The  sjime  kind  of  weather  all  over  the  Hea?  A.— 
.\«  a  ruU'  that  has  been  mv  ex|K>nence. 

Q.— You  do  not  know  what  other  vessels  have  »'xperieiiced? 
A.— No. 

Q.— I  think  you  did  not  jfive  fh«'  total  catch  of  seals  that 
had  been  made  in  18(»0.      Wlial  number  vyas  it?      .\.— (>:;t 

Q.— In  th<'  Sea?      A.— Yes.  sir. 

Q.—IIow  many  boats  did  you  have?  .\.— Six  boats  and  a 
stern  boat. 

li.— How  much  of  a  crew?     A.— Twenty  three. 

Q.— And  what  is  (h«'  tonnajje  t>f  the  "Annie  C.  Moor«'?"  A. 
—One  hundred  :  ad  tliiHecn. 

Q.— Resist  ered?      A.— Yes. 

Q.— .\nd  up  to  AuRHst  the  11th,  you  pot  tJ.>:i  senls?  A  — 
Yes. 

Q.— Had  von  been  senlinp  before  188!>,  captain?  A.— In 
1888. 

Q._\Vi,at  vessel  were  yon  in?     A.— The  "Annie  (\  Moore ; 

Q._\V„8  she  in  HeliriuK  Sea  in  ISSS?       A.— Siie  was. 

Q.— Did  you  have  a  larpe  »>r  small  catch?  A.— Small  cattli. 
Didn't  leave  here  nnlil  (he  "Jlst  of  .Line. 

Q.— What  lime  did  you  enier  tlie  S«a?  A.— About  tlie 
2(Mh  of  .lulv. 

Q.—IIow  lon«  did  you  remain?  A.— I'ntil  about  the  22nd 
of  .\upust.      I  have  pot  no  record  of  that. 

Q._\V1,.,(  was  vour  total  catch?  A.— Somewhere  near 
800. 

Q.— Did  that  include  the  upper  coast?  .\.— No.  I  wasn't 
on  the  coast  at  all. 


m 

m 


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iiiii. 


II! 


4>¥\ 


660 

(( 'luirlt'8  llarkt'tt— ( 'rosH— Kt'-dir«'ft.) 

Q. — And  you  luul  flu'  8Hine  outfit,  six  boats  aud  a  Htt-ru  boat 
and  tlie  same  uuniboi*  of  crew?      A. — Yos,  sir. 

Q. — Were  you  afraid  of  svizuw  that  year?      A.— No. 

Q  — You  left  about  the  same  date  that  you  did  in  1888?  A. 
— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — On  aceount  of  tlie  weather?       \. — No. 

Q. — <'loHe  of  the  season?      A.— I  rhnupht  I  had  Rot  pretty 
,Q   near  all  I  eouhl  get,  1  had  jjreen  men  for  hunters,  they  never 
had  btH^n  at  the  biisiness  before. 

Q.— That  was  your  first  years?  A.— First  year's  exper- 
ienee. 

Q. — When  yon  say  you  left  tlie  Poa  on  the  22nd  that  doesn't 
mean  that  tlmt  was  the  last  day  you  lowered?  A. — That 
was  the  day  I  came  throup:h  the  pass. 

Q. — .\nd  your  last  lowering  day  was  how  many  days  before 
that?      A. — I  couldn't  tell  that  because  I  liave  no  n-cord. 

Q. — ^Vell,  about?      A. — Well,  perhaps  four  or  five  days. 
20       Q. — In  1880  how  many  days  b»'fore  you  went  out  of  tlie  pass 
was  your  last  lowering  day?      A. — About  four  days,  I  think. 

Q. — TTave  voii  anv  book  with  the  record  of  your  catch  in 
1888?       A.— No,  I   haven't. 

Q. — Did  you  iiave  one?     A. — Yes,  1  had  one. 

Q. — Where  is  it?      A. — I  don't  know:  1  lost  it  somewhere. 

Q. — ITow  long  ago  did  you  lose  it?  A. — T  couldn't  tell  30U. 
I  tried  to  find  it;  if  I  had  it  you  could  have  it. 

Q. — Does  every  one  of  those  days  that  you  refer  to  as  your 
daily  catch  in   1889  represent  lowering  days?       \. — Ue|»rc- 
30  sent  lowering  days.      Rome  days  are  belter  than  others;  those 
are  tlie  days  we  lowered 

Q. — For  instance,  on  July  27th  you  took  three  seals;  is  that 
a  low«'ring  dsn?  .\. — I  don't  know,  they  might  have  Iteeii 
out  just  a  little  while  and  come  back  again;  it  mav  have  got 
bad. 

Q. — May  have  b«'en  shot  from  the  schooner?      A. — No. 

Q. — On  the  2f)th  you  took  four;  that  may  have  been  an 
hour?       A.— Yes. 

Q. — So  tliis  does  not  show  four  lowering  days?      A. — Well, 
''      it  may  be  they  was  just  a  little  while  out;  no.  it  does  not. 

Q. — Do  you  know,  captain,  who  was  the  captain  of  the 
Muanita"  in  l^^itO?  A.— T  think  it  was  Tlark.  if  1  am  not 
mistaken.  I  don't  know.  I  wouldn't  be  too  sure  of  it;  I  know 
lie  was  in  here,  but  what  shii*  I  eouldn't  tell  you. 

Q.— Ts  lie  d«'ad?        A.— No. 

Q. — Ts  he  here  in  Victoria?      .\. — 1  think  so. 

Ke-din'ct  examination  by  Mr.  lieitpie: 

(J. — You  liave  been  askid  as  to  whetln'r  you  wer«'  afraid 
5  of  Ix'ing  seized  in  I8SS  and  you  said  "N^o.''  You  ('(unmenced 
t<»  give  an  explanation  and  were  stopped.  Why  weren't 
of  l»eiiig  seized  in  I8SH  and  you  said  "No."  You  ct'uimenct'd 
and  gave  an  ex)>lanation  and  were  stopped.  Why  weren't 
you  afraid  of  being  seized?  .\. — We  had  received  instruc- 
lions  from  llie  customs  house  here  that  we  w«>ren't  to  be 
seized. 

ii. — You  liave  iM'cn  aske<1  as  to  the  "Maggi*'  Mac."     Do  you 
know  if  llf^"Maggie  Mac"  was  los(?     .\. — Yes,  sir. 
60       Q.— In  wliii<  year  was  slie  lost?     A.— 18!»2  or  18<):i. 

(J. — Was  (li(>  captain  and  crew  lost?  .\. — She  never  has 
been  heard  tell  of  nor  any  of  lu>r  crew;  some  of  the  reconls, 
I  hey  say,  had  been  ]iicked  uji. 

i}. — Who  was  her  cajitain?     .\. — John  Dodd. 

(}. — Had  lie  been  captiiiii  fm-  several  years?     A. — Oh,  yes. 

Q. — You  have  b'cn  asked  as  to  the  weather  in  Mehring  Sea, 
ami  yon  said  tli.'it  in  your  experience  the  weather  was  about 
the  same  all  over  Mehring  Sea.     I  suppose  you  menn  all  over 


66i 


lO 


20 


30 


{< 'hiirlt'H  IliitkHt — It«><lir(><t — Kc-croHH.) 

Ilic  MviiliiiK  ki-oiiihIh?  A. — Wfll,  tlitit  JH  whnt  I  iiictiii  here, 
icrtiiiiil.v.  I  ilidii't  fn>  from  wImtc  w<'  Ht'iih-d,  awtiy  t-roHH  to 
CopptT  iHliiiulH,  ill  all.  Tlu>ri'  \h  hoiiic  (liiTi'ivncc  in  the  wt'tith- 
ft' tht'i'p,  hut  HI  tlu'  Hlioi-t  <liH(Hn«-<'  wv  wiih-<l  in  I  do  not  think 
then*  Ih  ninch  ditTerenet*  in  the  weather. 

Uv-crosH  examiuatiun  by  Mr.  iiickiuHUu: 

y. — What  nieniurauduni  do  you  refer  to  for  1881)  and  18U0? 
A. — Al.v  own. 

Q. — Did  you  kwi»  a  meiuorauduui  of  your  poHitiou   when 
you  Healed  iu  liehnng  fcJea?      A. — Ve«,  sir. 

t/.— lloth  in  tlie  year  188J*  and  the  year  IS'JU  did  you  seal  iu 
8ubHtantialiy  tlie  »anie  position?     A. — i'retty  luucli,  i  tliinlv. 

y. — Tl»e  tear  of  seizure  did  not  move  you  oil'  the  ground 
lluil  you  selected?    A. — Well,  we  have  always  had  that  fear. 

il. — Did  you     ehauj^e    your    sealing    grounds?     A. — Very 
often  we  did. 

(i. — Did  you  ehange  it  in  188!»?     A. — We  kept  out  of  sight 
as  uiueli  as  possible,  hut  we  got  hack  again  on  it. 

ii. — Hut  you  sealed  on  the  same  ground  in  1889  and  18t)0? 
A.— Yes. 

Q. — You  selected  your  ttwn  ground  for  sealing?    A. — tHi. 
yes. 

ii. — What  is  your  largest  catch  in  tlu'  season  of  1880  in  the 
Itehring  Sea?     A. — Due  liundr«'d  and  seventy. 

(i. — What     was    your     location?    A. — Latitude  57.23  and 
longitude  IT.'t. 

(/.— That  is  to  the  westward  of  the  I'ribyloff  Islands?      A. 
— About  ninety  miles. 

Ij. — Were  yuu  eastward  of  the  i'ribylolT  Islands  at  all  that 
year?    A. — No,  sir. 

t^. — Give  us  the  variation  of  your  position  during  the  s»'a- 
son,  as  near  as  you  «aii?     A. — There  is  not  much  variation. 

Q. — You  remained  on  the  same  gi-ouiid  pr«'tty     much     all 
thethne?    A. — All  the  time. 

ii. — What'  was  your  largest  latch     in     18!M(?     A. — Ninety 
4O   eight. 

ii. — What  was  your  latitude     and     hmgitude?     A. — 5n.4.'l 
and  172.4t). 

Q. — Did  you  change  much  from  that  position  in  I8!»l(?     A. 
— Thirty  or  forty  miles. 

ii. — Did     you     tish  anywhere  near  or  in  view  of  what  is 
known  as  (he  volcano?      A. — No,  sir. 

ii. — Did  you  sight  more  than  one  volcano?     A. — ThereTirc 
three,  I  think. 

Q. — Did  you  lish  anywhere  within  100  miles  of  any  of  the 
5<J   \olcanoes?     A. — No. 

ii. — You  did  not  tish  within  100  inih's  of  Mogosloft?     A. — 
No,  sir. 

ii. — (Jive  us  generally  the  position  in  which  you  sealed  in 
ISS8?     A. — D  is  somewhere  about  the  same  position. 

ii. — You  have  not  got  it  in  your  book?      A. — No,  sir,  I  have 
not, 

ii. — About  how  much  further  south  is  it  than  the  places 
you  ttshed  in  188!)  and  18<.)0?    A.— I  do  not  know.  I  am  sure. 
Tio    '  ^^"*'  '"'*  '"  *'"'  business  then  and     tlnw     ])nsitions     were 
given  to  iiH'  and  I  tisheil  pn-tty  near  to  there. 

(i.— Did  ;ou  ever  tish  in  the  eastward     of    the     I'ribyloff 
Islands?     A.— Never. 

ii. — Nor  near  the  Kogosloff  volcano?     A. — No.     One  vear  I 
lisla'd  in  r.8.ao  and  173. 

<i. — In  188!)  you  were  spoken  and  were  told  that  they  were 
seizing?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Where  were  yon  spoken  and  told  they  were  seizing? 
A. — Home  where  off  then*. 


if 


It' 


i: 


'lil'IVi 


lO 


20 


30 


662 

(riiiiHcH   llnckffl— Uffi-OHH— K«'  <liro<'t.) 

<i. — <»u  lli«'  tlHliing  unmiids?     A. — Yi'h. 

Q. — Were  yuii  tultl  wliut  bad  Ih>(>u  Hi'izcd  uud  wuriii'tl?  A. 
— 1  du  not  ri'«-«tll«>rt.  I  kitow  (liiil  1  wtiH  told  at  tbat  Uni«>  that 
i  liad  bclti'f  lake  uiiv  as  ht>  had  Hft>ii  tlii'  boat.  U«>  Huid  hu 
had  8<H'ii  Hniok«>  and  be  ran  away  from  it. 

Q.^Voii  said  .v«)U  ran  iu  and  out;  no\'  when*  did  yoii  run 
to?    A. — W'v  not  off  tlu'  |Nmition  20  or  '.Ai  niib'H. 

Q. — Furllu'r  to  tlu'  wt-mwai'd  of  I'rilyioff?     A. — Yos,  sir. 

ii. — Tlu>  warniugs  and  H(>i/,urt>8  v/viv  priuciimlljr  to  tiic 
w«>Htward  of  tlu>  l'rib,vb)tV?  A. —  I  tliink  tbc  uiohI  m^izurcM 
wt'ro  doni'  in  l«uigitud<>  ItiS  and  Hi!)  and  aloni;  tbcro. 

ti. — In  1S!<!>  and  IS!M»,  did  .v«»u  kot'p  any  8«'parat»'  arcount 
of  tlu'  kind  of  wuIh  you  totik?     A. — No.  sir. 

(j. — I  t«up|)OH«>  you  took  all  8ort8  of  mcuIh  tbat  canio  along? 
A. — Yi'8,  sir. 

<i. — Snnill.  Iarg»',  «'Xtra  large  and  wigs?     A. — Yi'h.  »ir. 

y. — And  grey  juipH  and  brown  pupH?     A. — Y«'8.  8ir. 

Q. — IHd  you  gt't  a  conHidcrablc  number  t»f  |»up8?  A. — \Vo 
get  vt'ry  few  pujm  in  !t«>bring  Sea. 

ii. — You  g»»t  Hoine?  .\. — I  do  not  know.  1  cannot  8a v  I 
did. 

Q. — You  got  some  snuill  seals?     A. — Very  f«>w. 

y. — Mostly  all  wigw?     A. — No.  sir. 

Q. — Mostly  all  large?  A. — No,  just  the  average  run,  three 
and  four  and  tive  years  old. 

y. — How  ar«»  tliey  classified?  A. — >Ve  did  not  classify 
tbeni  here  at  all.  We  did  not  have  anvtbing  to  do  with 
tbat. 

Q. — Vou  mean  the  seab-rs  did  not  classify  Hum?  A.— I 
don't  tbink  nnyon*>  else  in  N'ictoria  did  that  I  know  of.  ( 
di<l  not  ;it  all  events. 

(J. — You  know  of  Hie  classification  of  wigs?      A. — Yes. 

<■}. — You  know  what  an  «'xtra  large  8»'a!  is?      A. — Yes. 

<i. — .\nd  you  know  a  large  seal  as  distinguished  fnun  an 
exii-a  large?      .\. — I  only  know  wliat  I  do  myself.      I  do  not 
know  bow  they  classify  tbeni  in  liOiidi>n. 
(J. — Yon  know  Ibar  there  are  |>up8?      \. — Yes. 
Q. — .\nil  you  know  that  they  have  different  prii-es  for  them? 
A. — Tbey  have  some  very  large  piips  at  tinu'8.  too. 

Q — I  understand.  Mat  vou  know  tbat  there  ar«'  different 
prices  according  to  the  si/e  of  the  seal?      .\. — Yes. 

Q. — In  your  estimate  of  seals  you  j>ut  them  all  in  as  so 
many  seals?      A. — Yes  in  the  market. 

Redir«>ct  examination  by  Mr.  Keique. 

Q. — Did  you  ev«'r  »'atcb  any  gray  piipa  in  the  IJebring  Pea? 

-Q    .\. — I  cannot  tell  you  that  ever  I  did,  sir. 

'  ii. — And  if  you  did.  it  was  only  one  or  two,  or  onl        ^•w? 

.\. — I  would  not  noiii'c  them.  I  would  have  to  turn  up  the 

nmount  of  seals  before  I  ciMild  tell  vou  bow  numv  pu])8  I  bad. 

if  I  bad  any." 

(J. — It  would  be  very  few  any  way?       A. — Yes,  very  few. 

Q. — Did  vou  sell  nnv  of  the  skins  in  nnv  of  thosp  years? 
A.— Wbert'! 

Q. — In  Victoria?      A. — The  first  year  I  was  sealing,  I  sold 
them  in  Victoria. 
60       Q. — And  what  alwut  the  other  years?       A. — I  never  sold 
them  since. 

Q. — Was  there  any  difference  made  for  the  purposes  of  sale 
or  for  fixing  the  price  between  the  wiga  and  the  pups  and  the 
different  sizes?     A. — Here  in  Victoria? 

ii. — Yes.     A. — Never  tbat  I  know  of. 

Q. — They  were  sold  in  n  bulk?  A.— That  is  the  way  I  sold 
my  own  in  the  first  place. 

Recross-examinntion  bv  Mr.  Dickinnon. 


40 


663 

(('liarlrH  lliK-kvK.     Victor  .larohsi'ii — l>irt>«-(.) 

(i. — Vim  Hold  Uu'iii  8o  iiiiiiiy  hcuIm  in  a  lot?      A. — V«'h,  kit, 
ill  Vifforia. 

Q. — A  job  lol?      A. — No,  sir,  not  a  job  lot.      Thoy  Rive  you 
MO  much  a  Hkin  for  tliv  lot. 

Q. — They  looked  tLi-iii  over  and  yon  barpiinod  ho  inucli  for 
llie  lot,  bi|;,  little  and  ull?      .\. — Vvh,  Hir,  so  inueli  per  Hkin 
for  tli<>  lot. 
^       (i. — Tlu'  tj'"<'y  JMipH  roiinti'd  in  that  way?     A. — Yen.  nir. 

Q. — Ah  a  full  skin?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Was  tliat  tln'  law  in  18«!i?      A.— In  ISS8,  tlicy  wi'ie 
and  that  is  all  I  know  about. 

Q.— You  do  not  know  anythinp  about  1889?      A.— No,  I 
lu'vor  sold  any  in  1889. 

Q. — And  yon  don't  know  anvthinp:  about  1887?      A. — No, 
sir. 


m 


!if 


20 


50 


Victor  JacobmMi  was  ri'-calU'd  um  a  witiieHH  on  the  (miiI  of 
(iivat  Itritain. 

IIIh  t(>Htinioiiy  wuh  taken  out  of  order  by  (nuiHeiit  of  coiiiiHel. 

Direct  exaiuinutiou  by  Mr.  Itodwell: 

Q.— You  were  in  the  Uehrlug  Seu  in  1888?      A.— YeH,  sir. 

(i. — In  wiiat  Hchooner?      A. — The  "Mountain  <31iief." 

(i. — How  iiiaiiy  boats  did  you  have?  A. — There  were  five 
canoes  and  I  had  also  one. 

il. — When  did  you  g«'t  into  the  Kea?  A. — About  the  ttrst 
part  of  AugUHt. 

Q. — You  had  Indian  hunters?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — And  you  stayed  until  when?  A. — Until  the  llrst  part  of 
,y   September. 

Q. — liow  was  it  that  you  were  so  late  in  {getting  in?  A. — 
Oil  account  of  the  seiziircK  in  1887,we  could  not  get  any  In- 
dian hunters  to  go  up  to  the  Sea.  I  had  to  get  a  guarantee 
fi'oiii  the  Ciistini  House  that  there  would  be  no  seizure.  The 
Indians  were  in  Nictoria  from  the  coast,  and  1  could  have  ar- 
ranged with  them  hen,  if  1  had  the  guarantee  from  the  Cus- 
loui  House.  Hi>l  we  did  not  get  away  from  the  coast  before 
the  -'.'ith  of  Jun<-. 

Q. — You  could  not  leave  as  you  could  not  get  Indians  until 
3u  you  got  word  from  the  (Jiistoiii  Housi'  that  you  would  not  be 
wi/ed?      A. — No. 

Q. — How  many  seals  did  you  get  in  that  month  in  1888  in 
ihe  Hehring  Hea?      A.— About  9(M>. 

Q. — You  were  there  in  1889  in  tli«'  "Minnie?"      A. — Yes. 

Q. — What  was  voiir  catch  up  to  the  day  of  the  seizure  of 

I  lie  Minnie?      A.— 4.18  or  429. 

H. — That  wan  between  what  dates?  A. — I  went  in  on  the 
27th  of  June. 

(i._You  were  there  in  1899?     A.— Yes.  in  the  "Minnie." 

Q. — What  time  did  you  get  into  the  Sea  that  year?  A. — 
About  the  middle  of  July. 

Q. — How  many  boats  and  what  nnmber  of  hunters  did  you 
have?  A. — Eight  canoes  and  two  boats  but  one  ran  away 
from  me.      I  had  Indian  hunters. 

(i. — Did  you  hav«'  that  boat  all  tlie  wason?  A. — No,  he  ran 

II  way  on  the  c<ia8t  off  the  Kodiak  islands. 
Q. — Did  you  have  him  in  the  Sea?    .\.— No.     I  had  only 

eight  itinoeH  and  myself. 


do 


11        ; 


'iJl'llMl 


i? 
Il  ' 


10 


20 


30 


664 

( VJ<'top  JflcobHon — I )lri'ct — Orows.) 

Q.— Wlu'n  did  you  leave  the  Sea?  A.— On  (he  25th  of 
AiiKiiHt  I  h>ft  I  lie  hutin);  {froiinds. 

Q. — What  WHB  your  eateh  that  year?     A. — Abuut  1,6W0. 

Q.— That  was  in  llehrinp  Hea?    A.— Yes. 

<J. — Did  many  of  tlie  schooners  make  a  good  eatch  in  Behr- 
injt  Sea  lliat  year?  A. — Well,  I  was  the  high  line  until  I 
think  the  Viva  came  in. 

Crossexamiuation  by  Mr.  Warren: 

(j. — lluve  yuu  any  memorandum  to  show  what  day  you 
went  into  (he  Sea  in  the  various  years?     A. — No. 

y. — Where  did  you  get  your  memorandum  from?  A. — 
From  my  own  head,  and  1  always  ki-ep  it  theiv,  too. 

Q. — And  all  (his  iuformadou  comes  from  there?  A. — That 
is  what  it  did. 

y. — Did  you  ever  keep  any  memorandum  to  aid  your  head? 
A. — Not  myself,  no. 

il. — And  when  you  say  ilOU  skins,  that  information  is  not, 
quite  exact/    A. — Not  exact  to  the  skin. 

i-l. — It  is  <iuil<.'  a  ways  «>((',  is  it  not?  A. — No,  not  us  far  us 
1  know. 

y.— In  1888,  you  said  tlie  catch  was  !)00?    A.— Yes. 

y. — What  boait  were  you  in  that  year?  A. — The  "Moun- 
tain Chief." 

y. — You  had  six  canoes  and  a  boat?  A— 1  had  no  boat. 
J  liad  live  canoes  and  a  canoe  for  myself. 

y. — Did  you  yourwlf  hunt?     A. — Ves. 

y. — You  are  a  ;;»K)d  shot?  A. — Well,  1  did  (he  best  1  could 
(hat  time.     1  just  s(ar(i'd  (lien. 

y. — Is  i(  cnslcmary  for  you  (o  hun(  Mboat  (he  same  leng(h 
of  (inie  during  the  day  (hat  your  huu(ers  do?  A. — No,  1  had 
to  salt  lite  skins  and  do  (he  work  on  (he  schooner,  and  I  «)nly 
had  one  man  lef(  on  (he  vessel.  I  would  siilt  (lu'  skins  and 
then  ^o  out  afterwards,  and  come  back  (irst  again  to  haul  in 
the  seals. 

il. — Have  you  swn  recently  any  correct  account  of  the  num- 
ber *>f  skins  (he  "Mountain  ('hief  took  in  1888?  A. — 1  have 
40  not, 

(i.— Is  not  8(M)  m-arer  correct  than  OC.O?  A.— No,  I  do  not 
think  it  is. 

il. — Did  y(Mi  make  ii  rt'lurn  (o  (he  Custom  House?  A. — 
No,  no(  a(  (ha(  time. 

il. — Did  anylxMly  elw  n>ake  a  return  for  (he  "Mountain 
Chief"?    A.— No.  ■ 

il- — Mr.  .lacobsen,  is  not  825  (he  corr«'ct  number  taken  (hat 
year?    A. — No.  it  is  not. 

Q.— Wlia(  is  i(?     A.— 1(  is  nearly  alM)ut  900. 

Q. — What  is  (he  correct  date  when  yon  went  into  Itehring 
Kea  tlai(  year?  A. — W«'ll,  I  have  not  go(  exacdy  (he  correc( 
date,  but  it  was  in  the  (irs(  part  of  August. 

Q. — Was  it  (he  (lrs(  of  August  or  (he  first  part  of  August? 
A. — I  canno(  say  i(  was  (he  1st  of  August. 

il. — Was  it  (he  last  of  July?  A. — I  cannot  say  that  for 
certain,  but  I  know  il  was  about  the  first  part  of  August. 

Q. — What  was  your  last  lowering  day  in  1888?  A. — I 
low<'red  nlM>ut  (he  very  last  day  in  the  Pass,  and  got  sixty  odd 
skins.  I  w«'"nt  oh(  of  (he  Pass  after  we  took  in  water  in  the 
I'ass.  The  caniM's  saw  seals  in  the  morning  aft«'r  they  flUed 
with  water  and  they  lowered  an«l  I  got  sixty  seals  right  in 
the  Pass. 

Q.— That  was  about  the  first  of  September?  A.— It  was 
l»etw<H>n  (he  (hivd  and  the  seventh  of  Reptember.  I  cleared 
the  Pass  on  the  seventh  of  Reptember. 

Q. — You  were  s«>aling  H|»  to  the  s(>venth  of  Reptember  that 
year?     A. — Yi**. 


50 


60 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


Co 


66s 

(Victor  .Incolmen — Crora.) 

Q. — Till'  «'.\|>l)iniilion  voii  pivr  for  Itoin^  in  tli(>  wtt  ho  very 
late  wn»  Im'ohih*'  j'ou  Htiirti-d  out  ho  late?     A. — Yob. 

H. — Von  had  a  linrd  time  j^etting  linnterB  that  .year  and  .von 
wanted  to  make  np  in  tin*  Jnttt  part  of  the  Heancm  wliat  .von 
loBt  in  the  tirst  part?  A. — I  was  there  to  get  the  seal.  That 
in  what  I  waH  there  for. 

Q. — You  Btayed  a  little  later  than  uHual  for  that  reaBon? 
A. — I  BtaycKi  to  get  the  Heals.  We  got  in  late  and  I  did  not 
have  many  seals  and  I  wanted  to  get  among  seals  and  take 
my  ehnneeB. 

Q. — You  stayed  later  than  UBual  that  year?  A. — That  year 
before  I  «'nnje  out  on  aecoiint  of  the  seizures  and  this  year 
was  only  my  seeond  year  there.  I  was  not  seui-ed  of  any- 
thing for  I  knew  there  w«'re  no  seizures,  and  I  stayed  as  long 
as  I  eould  on  aeeount  of  the  weather.  I  stayed  as  long  as  I 
dared  to  on  account  of  my  small  vessel. 

Q. — In  ISSlt  you  were  seized,  I  iH'lieve?     A. — Yes. 
(J.— About  the  27th  of  ,luly?     A.— No,  on  the  1.5th. 
(J.— And  you  say  that  up  to  the  15th  <»f  -luly  you  had  218 
skins?      A.— I  had  more  on  the  const  iM'fore  1  went  in. 

Q. — You  carried  some  of  them  into  the  Sea?  A. — About 
half  of  them. 

Q. — I  suppose  you  will  be  here  again  for  cross  examination 
on  another  claim?      A. — I  suppose  so. 

Q. — In  1890,  you  had  eight  canoes  and  two  boats?  A. — 
One  boat  ran  away  on  the  west  coast. 

Q. — You  used  the  boat  for  hunting  seals  yourself?  A. — 
Yes. 

Q. — IIow  many  Indians  did  vou  have  in  each  canoe?  A.^ 
Two. 

Q. — Did  they  have  guns  or  spears  in  181)0?  A. — Koth  guns 
and  8p<>arB. 

Q. — About  what  time  of  the  year  did  you  go  into  the  Sea? 
A. — Ab«»ut  the  middle  of  -Inly,  so  far  as  I  remember. 

Q. — And  wheii  did  you  come  out?      A. — The  last  day  I  seal- 
ed was  on  the  2 1st  of  August. 
Q. — Where  you  warned  out  that  year?      A. — No. 
Q. — Did  you  come  out  because  you  were  afraid  you  would 
be  sinzed?      A. — No. 

Q. — Did  you  come  out  for  water?  A. — I  came  out  because 
I  thought  I  had  sealed  enough.  I  had  then  four  or  tive  hun- 
dred seals  more  than  I  had  any  salt  for. 

Q. — You  nuule  an  unusual  catch  that  year?  A. — That  is 
what  I  did. 

Q. — The  fact  is  that  you  made  a  larger  <'atcli  than  y(Hi 
counted  ujmn  making?      A. — That  is  wliat  1  did. 

Q. — And  you  had  so  many  skins  that  you  found  that  you 

had  not  brought  salt  enougli  to  salt  them?      A. — Yes,  I  did 

not  have  a  great  deal  of  means  to  get  all  these  things,  the 

year  aft«'r  I  was  seiy.fd.     I  did  not  have  a  great  deal  of  store 

list  and  ev«'rytliing  else  that    year.      I     didn't    have    much 

money  after  I  was  seized. 

Q.— Did  thev  5ake  all  your  salt  the  year  before?      A. — No. 

Q.— They  diil  not  lake  "any,  did  they?     A.— They  took  B««ne. 

Q.— ITow  much  did  they  take?       A.— Three  or  five  sacks. 

1  don't  remember  which. 

Q.— Flow  much  did  it  weigh  all  together?  A.— About  100 
pounds  to  the  sack.  They  took  about  40(»  or  500  pounds  of 
salt. 

Q._What  boat  were  vou  on  in  1887?  A.— The  "Moun- 
tain Chief." 

Q.— What  equipment  did  you  have  that  year?  A.— Four 
canoes. 

Q.— How  many  boats?  A.— We  had  four  canoes  and  a 
canoe  for  mvself. 


w 


m 


if;'  li 


I! 


: 


^t 


:iji'i|i 


B 


lO 


20 


666 

( Victor  .l)i(-«iliM-ii — < 'roMH — ■{•>  «lii<>rl.l 

Q. — A(  wlia!  <lale  did  you  j?o  inlo  tin*  Hon  Ihat  yc-ar?  A. — 
Soine  of  the  laHi  days  of  .Inly. 

Q. — Why  did  you  ro  in  so  late  Ihat  year?  A. — We  sealed 
pretty  near  all  liie  time  we  could  on  tlio  coast  first.  And  re- 
member my  schooner  was  small,  and  we  had  a  lot  of  h<*ad 
winds.  It  always  took  me  a  month  or  six  weeks  to  ro.  It 
was  not  all  fun  to  po  1,500  or  1,«(M)  miles  with  that  little  ves- 
sel. 

Q. — What  time  did  you  come  out  tliat  year,  18K7?  .\. — 
On  the  14th  or  17th  of  August. 

Q. — Were  yon  warned  out?  A. — No,  I  did  not  stay  lonj? 
enough  to  get  warned. 

Q. — Were  you  afraid  of  seizure?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — You  have  explained  that  the  reason  vou  came  out  in 
1800  on  the  20; ii  of  August  was  that  you  did  not  have  salt 
en«>URh  to  salt  your  skins"  A. — Not  alone  that,  I  had  a  hij? 
catch  and  the  Indiana  thought  they  had  all  the  seals  they 
wanted  and  had  mnde  all  the  money  they  wante<l.  They 
didn't  want  to  work  any  more  and  I  had  to  come  out,  and  cer- 
tainly I  was  short  of  salt  too. 

Q. — Was  that  lh«'  only  reason  that  you  came  out.  that  you 
were  short  of  siilt?  .\. — 1  would  have  staye<l  longer  still  if 
I  could  make  the  Indians  work,  but  the  Indians  had  so  many 
seals  for  the  season  then  that  they  did  not  care  about  work- 
ing any  more. 

Ue-direct  examination  by  Mr.  Kodwell: 


30 


Q. — I  want  you  to  describe  just  what  happened  on  a  good 
sealing  day  in  July  or  August  in  the  Itelsring  Sea?  What 
time  do  you  send  out  our  canoes  in  the  morning?  A. — Short- 
ly after  the  lirst  day  light.  They  do  not  go  out  so  early  now 
as  tliey  did  when  they  used  guns. 

(i. — 1  am  speaking  about  a  fine  day  when  you  are  among 
the  seals.  How  far  away  do  those  canoes  go  away  from  the 
schooner?  A. --We  htart  out  in  dilTt'i-ent  courses,  and  move 
around  so  as  to  keep  clear  of  one  another.  If  tlie  seals  are 
40  plentiful  we  may  not  get  two  or  three  miles  away  from  the 
schooner  during  the  wliole  day. 

Q. — And  if  they  ar<'  scarce  you  go  f\irther?  A. — Yes,  we 
go  hunting  aronnd  all  day. 

Q.— And  in  that  radius  you  find  one  or  two  seals  togetli»'r 
sometimes?      A. — Y.'s,  and  sometimes  twenty. 

Q. — So  that  you  would  have  the  canoes  surrounding  the 
schooner  at  a  distance  of  lioin  two  or  three  miles  to  ten  or 
fifteen  miles  a  day?     A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  as  they  got  further  away  from  tlie  schooner  they 
50  would  be  further  from  each  ()ther?  A. — When  w«'  had  the 
guns,  and  if  the  seals  were  not  plentiul  round  the  schooner 
the  «'anoes  and  the  boats  would  work  up  to  where  the  most 
sh(M>ting  was  had.  We  might  go  ten  or  fifttiMi  miles  from 
the  schmnier,  and  another  thing  we  always  hunt  a  little 
against  the  wind.  Wherever  the  wind^»lows  from  that  is  the 
din'ction  we  hunt. 


This  closed  the  examination  of  the  witness. 


60 


Robert  .Tames  Ker  was  recalled  as  a  witness  on  the  part  of 
fJreat  Britain. 

Direct  examination  bv  Mr.  Hodwell: 


ii 


lO 


667 

(K.  .1.  Kci— DincI— ('n»«M.) 

Q. — Mr.  Ker,  you  work  or  K.  I*.  Uithet  &  L'tHiipiiuy,  Liiuil- 
c'dV     A. — Yt's,  sir. 

Q. — And  tlwy  were  the  itt'i-HouH  who  ttlti'd  out  tlu*  "Muggiu 
Mac"  in  the  yoan  that  she  was  HiiilinK?  A. — Vus,  they  aft- 
vd  as  agi'utH  for  hvr. 

(j. — And  th«>y  r<-4*«>iv«>d  th*>  HkinM  at  the  end  of  the  HoaHon 
or  the  purpoMeH  of  sale?    A. — Voh,  sir. 

Q. — WaH  «he  captain  in  tlie  liabit  of  reiM>rtinK  to  j-oii  the 
number  of  Heals  that  were  caught  on  the  vctyage?  A. — Yen, 
he  alwayH  reimrled  and  we  always  had  them  tally^nl  into  (»ur 
warehouse. 

Q. — You  had  charge  of  that  part  of  the  business  for  K.  1*. 
Kithet  &  (^(Hnpany  at  that  lime?    A.— Y«'S. 

Q. — Can  you  give  us  the  «'atch  of  the  "Maggie  Mac"'  in  the 
Itehring  Hea  in  the  year  18X8?  A. — No,  1  cannot  give  it  to 
you  for  1888. 

Q. — Why?    A. — Itecause  we  did  not  not  as  agents  for  her 
20  that  year. 

Q. — Can  you  give  us  the  catch  in  the  Rehring  Sen  for  the 
year  188!>?     A.— Yes. 

Q. — >Vluit  was  it?  A. — One  thousand  two  liundnMl  and 
ninety  skins. 

Q. — Do  you  know  how  many  boats  the  "Maggie  Mac"  hiid? 
A. — I  believe  she  had  six  boats. 

Q. — Do  you  know  that  yourself?  A. — I  know  the  crew  that 
she  had  (»n  board.     I  know  sln^  took  '2'.i  white  men  and  siie 
w«>uld  have  six  boats  for  tlioin. 
50       ii. — Do  you  know  what  lime  she  «'ntered  the  Behring  Rea 
and  what  lime  she  came  out?     A. — I  cannot  say. 

(J. — Did  the  <-aptain  niak«'  any  return  at  nil  showing  what 
time  he  left  the  sea?     A. — No.  I  do  not  think  he  wouhl. 

Q. — Can  you  give  us  the  catcli  of  the  "Maggie  Mac"  in 
Rehring  Rea  in  1890?      A.— Yes,  847  skins. 

Q. — VVhat  was  the  equipment  of  tlie  ship  that  year?  A. — 
.lust  the  same,  six  boats. 

Q. — You  might  give  us  tlie  total  catch  for  the  coast  and 
Itehring  Rea  in  1889  and  1890?  A.  -In  1889  it  was  2.(l«7,  and 
in  1890  it  was  l,9r)4. 

CroBS-exiimination  by  Mr.  Lansing: 

Q. — Did  yoii  have  cliarge  of  this  matter  in  1889?  A. — Y«»8. 
I  had  charge  of  the  accounts  and  the  business  detiiing  with 
the  seho<mers. 

Q. — Did  you  make  any  return  to  the  customs  house  with 
regard  to  it?    A. — I  did  not. 

(i. — Did  the  master?  A. — I  do  not  know  whether  he  gave 
retiirns  then  or  not.      I  fancy  he  did.      He  might  have. 

Q. — Have  you  any  absolute  knowledge  as  to  the  fact  wheth- 
er these  tigures  wliich  you  have  given  include  the  upper  coast 
catch  or  not?  A. — TJie  figures  I  have  given  for  the  Rehring 
Sea  I  know  are  for  tlu'  Rehring  Rea. 

Q. — Do  they  indud*'  any  of  the  upjwr  coast  catch?  A. — 
Not  outside  two  or  tlm'e.     Perhaps  a  few  skins. 

Q. — When  they  trans-ship|M>d  at  Rand  Point  or  any  point 
near  the  entrance  to  the  Rea?     A. — I  think  not. 

Q. — Then  how  do  you  know?  A. — No,  in  every  case  they 
were  transferred. 

Q. — Do  you  know  in  these  cases  yon  have  given  A. — In 
thos<»  two  cases  I  cannot  say  for  sure  whether  they  were  or 
not. 

Q. — You  cannot  tell  whether  they  were  one  hundred  or  two 
hundred  or  three  hundred  taken  on  the  upper  const  catch? 
A. — Oh,  yes,  I  can. 

Q. — TTow?    A. — From  the  return  of  the  insurance. 


40 


50 


c>o 


I 


ii 


i|H|' 


6(58 

(RolM'rl  J.  K«'i'— CioHH.) 

(j. — Wiiiil  wiiH  tli«-  iii»|ii-r  niiiHt  viiti-h  uf  tlic  "Mu^ttif  Mae" 
in  ISH)>?     A. — H«'i'  upiK-r  «oiiMt  iiitrli  wii»  JilH. 

Q. — Were  tht'He  n-turmil?   A. — 1  bolifvc  ihi'ne  wen'  rolnrn 
vd. 

Q.— Wero  they  rt'turniHl  In  18!M)  nlno?    A.— No,  I  lu'lifve 
tli«-.v  kept  tlu'ni  all  «)n  buiird  fur  IHUO. 

(i.— What  wan  her  lower  coaHt  witch  In  185H)?     A.— 1,107. 
lO       ^'' — ^"  "'*'  "**'■>'''■>?  H*'"  ivturu,  you  have  lucludcHl  Home  of 
the  eouHt  eateh?     A. — No,  It  eoiild  not  very  well     be     that. 
They  ahvayH  turne<l  uh  In  the  t«»tal  for  inHiiranre  pnrpom'H, 
and  they  are  ahvayH  exact  or  nearly  ho. 

ii. — Where  did  yon  get  your  Information?  A. — Prom  Uie 
captain. 

W. — Where  are  you  K'ttbiK  HiIh  Information  from  now?  A. 
I  got  It  now  from  the  v«)UcherH. 

t^.— Have  you  gol   the  voucliern?     A.— I   have  not  all  the 
vouchers  here,  but  I  have  some  of  them. 
20       Q. — Does  It  show  the  dally  .•uteh?      A. — No. 

y.— What  does  it  show?      A.— It  shows  the  total  catcla-s. 
y. — Have  you  got  the  captain's  original  report?       A. — I 
have  not. 

Q. — Where  Is  it?  A. — I  do  not  know,  I  am  sure,  where  it 
is  now. 

Q. — Did  he  make  any  original  report?  A. — Oh,  y«'H.  they 
nlw»3's  nuike  a  report. 

Q. — Do  you  keep  those  original  reports?      A. — They  do  not 
alwtiys  nmke  a  written  report,  their  report  might   l»e  made 
3°    verbally  at  the  end  of  the  journey,  or  they  would  nend  a  slip 
down  or  something  like  that. 

Q. — Still  you  are  ready  to  swear  that  that  «»nly  includes  the 
Hehring  Sea?  A. — I  am  ready  to  sw«>ar  that  by  my  vouch- 
ers it  does. 

Q. — But  not  from  the  ca]»taln's  vouchers?  A. — I  do  not 
know  that  I  luive  any  vouchers  from  the  captain. 

Q. — What  do  you  mean  by  saying  that  you  know  It  from  the 
Insurance?      A. — The  report  is  turned  in  to  place  in  the  in- 
.Q   .surance  on  the  skinH  from  that  day. 

Q. — What  was  her  upper  coast  catch?  A. — The  1,107  take 
in  tile  wliole  coast  catch.      I  cannot  divide  them. 

Q. — You  are  not  ready  to  say  whether  all  these  seals  were 
taken  in  Rehring  Sea?  .\. — i  <'an  tell  that  847  were  taken 
in  Itehring  Sea,  because  1,107  were  returned  us  from  Sand 
Point,  and  they  wero  insured  from  that  day. 

Q. — Was  thert!  a  transshipment  of  skins  in  ISSO  from  that 
point?     A. — I  cannot  swear  if  tlu'V   were  transferred  or  if 
they  were  kept  aboard  the  schooner. 
50       Q. — You  do  not  knew  if  they  were  transferred    In    ISSO? 
A. — I  cannot  say  without  referring  to  the  vouchers. 

Q. — You  won't  swear  that  this  represents  only  the  Itehring 
Sea  catch?  A. — Yes,  I  am  prejmred  to  say  that  847  re- 
presents the  Itehring  Sea  catch. 

Q.— And  where  is  your  Sand  Point  catch?  A.— The  1,107 
that  were  r<'turned  from  Sand  Point, 

Q. — As  I  understand  there  are  three  catches  in  1880?  A. 
—Yes. 
60  Q. — That  Ih  tlu>  lower  coast  catch  and  the  ui>i)or  coast 
catch  and  the  Itehring  Sea  catch?  A. — Yes.  After  he  left 
the  harbor  hero  and  sealed  on  the  lower  coast,  and  then 
sealed  jjerhaps  up  to  Sand  Point  his  catch  would  total  uj) 
1,107.  He  was  sealing  all  the  time  possibly.  He  could 
come  in  here  ind  land  some  skins  and  then  go  on  sealing 
again. 

Q. — He  did  not  tr.ms-shlp  on  the  west  coast?  A. — Not 
thaf  year. 


66<> 


lO 


30 


(|{.  .1.  Kt-r— ("loHH— Ufdii'tH'l.) 

(2.— Aud  did  nut  coiiit'  in  l<>  \'it;toriu  UKiiin  witli  liiH  lowur 
loJiBt  nilcli?      A.— No,  hv  conid  not  liavo  ronu-  to  Vieloriii. 

Q.— Wji8  tlu-re  u  truna-^liipniont  of  Hkinn  in  llSS'J  at  Sand 
Point.  Tlint  ia  tlie  yoar  in  wliicli  yon  tcHtiflod  tliero  w«'rc  1,- 
•J!iO  pkinB  tniion  in  Ut'lirinK  Hi-a?  A.— Ych,  I  believe  there 
waH  a  tranafer  in  tlnit  year. 

Q.— At  Band  I'olnt?  .A.— I  cannot  Hay  if  it  wag  at  Rand 
I'oint  or  not. 

<i. — Were  tlicy  transferred  on  tlie  wt'Ht  conHt?  A. — I  wouid 
not  Ix'  certain. 

y.— Tluit  1,2!M)  niiulit  incinde  Honio  of  tlie  ^atch  from  tlie 
wcHt  coast  up  ♦(;  ItelirinK  Hea?      A. — It  niiRlit  a  few. 

y. — Yon  cannot  teli  liow  many?      .\. — No,  I  cann<it  teli. 

Q. — It  wonld  not  apiH'ar  by  tlie  captain'H  return?  A. — 
Oh,  ycH,  I  would  know  from  hiH  return,  certainly. 

ii. — You  have  not  his  return?  A. — I  have  not  the  voticli- 
tvH  iM're.  I  merely  took  this  memorandum  from  the  vouch- 
2o  crH. 

i}. — You  are  not  prepared  to  swear  that  that  1,2J>0  merely 
includcH  the  Itehriu);  Hea  catch?  It  may  include  the  upjier 
«'oaHt  catch?  \. — TlieHe~(ii:t  were  trauHerred  at  the  time. 
Tliey  don't  do  any  m'niiuK  on  the  upper  const. 

il — When  were  they  transferred?  A. — I  think  in  July.  I 
cannot  swear  to  the  day  now.  I  have  not  the  iMemorandum 
with  me.  .      S 

(i. — ^'oll  d<in't  know  exactly  when  they  were  transfi  ired? 
\. — No,  I  cannot  say  exactly. 

Q. — You  don't  know  the  day  when  the  vessel  st<»pped  si'ul- 
inp  in  Ifehrinp  Hea?       A. — No. 

Q. — Nor  when  she  started  sealiuR?      A. — No. 

Q. — The  captain's  return  does  not  show  that?  A. — I 
think  not;  not  the  return  that  T  have. 

Itedirect  examination  by  Mr.  Bodwell: 

Q. — I  understand  you  to  say  Mr.  Ker,  that  the  usual  eoum; 
of  business  was  for  the  captain  when  ho  arrived  at  Sand 
INtint  to  report  his  coast  catch  for  the  purpose  of  insurance? 
40   A.— Yes. 

Q. — And  in  that  report  you  insured  the  skins?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Is  it  fr»»n'.  the  bo«)ks  in  your  ottice  and  the  papers  re- 
l.-iting  to  fTia't  transaction  that  you  know  the  number  of  skins 
tiiat  were  caught  in  Relirinfj  Hea?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Did  you  have  charge  of  any  schooners  in  1800?  A. — 
We  had  charR-.'  of  the  ".\nnie  C;.  Moore,"  and  the  "MaKKi«> 
Mac." 

Q. — In  1SS9,  did  you  have  any  other  vessels?  A. — .lust  tL« 
two. 

Q. — In  188S.  di3  you  have  charge  of  any  others?  A, — No, 
ISS!)  was  onr  first  year. 

The  witness  was  not  further  examined. 

Mr.  Bodwell: — If  my  learned  friends  want  any  more  infor- 
mation from  tliiK  witness  I  can  brinj?  him  back  with  the 
vouchers  for  the  accounts. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — An  far  as  the  oral  testiincmy  of  this  wit- 
ness is  concerned,  he  has  given  no  evidence  except  that  he  is 
6o   the  custodian  of  these  iiapers.       We   'r>  .lot  believi*  that  he 
lias  given  any  evidence  at  all  in  refert    ^  e  to  tlie  case. 

Mr.  Peters: — We  think  he  has. 

Mr.  Bodwell' — If  you  are  satisfied  that  the  evid«'nce  Tie  has 
given,  with  resjnrd  to  the  vouchers,  is  correct  we  need  not 
bring  him  back  to  produce  the  vouchers. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — If  you  are  satisfied,  we  are  satisfied.  I 
can  say  in  all  frankness  that  I  do  not  regard  this  as  testi- 


\m 


■w  ^i 


so 


li^ 


lO 


6;o 

(UolH-rl  K.  MiKiil— DliTct.) 

iiion.v  lit  nil.      If  yoii  art'  willinK  to  tiikt'  the  rink  of  lonving 
t(  iiH  It  Ih  tht>n  wt>  tin'  witlKfli-d. 

hlv.  I<4mTw*>IT:— Tli«>ii  wf  will  briiiK  tMa  wltuciw  btu-k  with 
the  vouchent. 

Mr.  IMckiiiHoii: — \Ve  <lu  not  iiHk  (hit. 

The  CuniniiHHiunerH  then  ruw. 


OommiMionen  nnder  the  OonTentlon   of  Febmmry  8,  1896,  BetWMn 
Oreat  BriUin  and  the  Unltad  SUtea  of  /  merlca 

Ohjunbm  of  the  LegisUtiTe  Anembly, 

At  Victoria,  December  28,  1896- 

30       At  m.'.M  a.iii.  the  CuniiniHHioiiera  took  their  seats. 

OiiHtave  llaiiHeii.  a  witness  iModutM^I  on  tlie  part  of  On-al 
nHtain.  wan  icealletl  for  inmNexaiiiination  in  rontiniiation  of 
IiIm  tt'Htiinoiiv  taktn  out  of  onlcr  hv  i-oiiMeiit  in  the  caHe  of  the 
"Winnifntl." 


'|l  . 


lilHl'ii 


t: 


KotK>rt  E.  Mc-Keil,  a  wi  i'HH  prodneed  on  the  luirt  uf  Ureal 

3*^   Itritain,  recalltd.     The  linion.v  of  tlie  wilneHH  a|)|>lieH  in 

);enenil  tu  all  tlie  v.am'h  >  the  <|ueHtiun  of  catch,  iucludiut; 
the  "Carolena." 

Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Peters: 

(i. — ('iiptain  McKeil,  yon  have  Immmi  examined  with  regard 
to  the  tliiiiKH  that  took  place  in  the  years  ISKO  and  18H7?  A. 
— Yes,  sir. 

Q.— You  were  master  of  the  "Hiatrice"  in  1889?      A.— Yes. 
40  sir. 

Q. — How  many  can<H>s  did  yon  carry?  A. — I  carried  111 
canoes  on  the  coast. 

Q. — Where  did  the  "Heatrice"  come  from  that  year?  A. — 
From  Japan. 

Q. — Did  you  biing  her  over?  A. — I  brought  her  over  that 
same  vear. 

Q. —  »Vlien  did  von  arrivv»  h«'re?      A. — I  arrived  here  some- 
where about  the  Ist  Ai»ril.  188». 
il. — You  went  waling  on  the  ciwist  with  12  can<H>Hand  with 
S®    what  crew?      A. — I  carried  one  l)oat,  tlve  Japanese  and  «me 
white  man  iK'hides  myself. 

ii. — You  had  12  Indians,  live  Ji'panese,  four  seamen,  the 
<'ook.  tlie  captain  and  the  mate?  A. — That  was  in  the  Beh- 
ring  Sea. 

Q. — That  does  not  ajiply  to  the  co;>j*t?  A. — I  had  12  ca- 
n(M'8.  that  is.  '2i  Indians,  on  the  coast,  I  liad  four  Jai>anese 
bailors  and  a  Tapanene  cook,  and  the  mate  and  myself,  wlio 
were  both  white  men. 
(5o  Q.— Did  you  make  a  catch  on  the  coast?  A.— I  caught 
40!)  on  the  const. 

Q._Pi,l  vou  go  into  tlu'  Behring  Sea?      A.— Yes,  sir. 
Q._Did  "you  make  a  catch  in  the  Behring  Sea?       A.— I 
made  something  over  fiOO  in  the  Behring  Sea. 

Q. — How  many  canoes  did  you  take  into  the  Behring  Sea? 
A.— Six. 

Q. — What  crew  did  you  have  besides  the  Indians?  A.— 
Five  Japanese,  the  mate,  a  white  man,  and  myself. 


10 


»0 


30 


671 

(KoImii   K.  Mi  Kii'l— IHnil.» 

y.— IIOW    WHH  11    30U    llUd    Hlltll    a   Mlllllll    CIVW    tlll'U?         A.— 

Tlu>  Hchuuuer  w:ih  hIciiuki'  uii  th**  i-utiHt  uiid  tlic  liidiuuti  weru 
lifruid. 

g.— Afritid  of  what?  Did  th>  uut  kiiuw  tlic>  owiii'i?  A.— 
T\wy  did  uot  ku')w  tlfowiifiaiid  (lu'y  wen-  Mfriild  about  their 
in\y. 

g.— Aud  tli«'«'for«'  ill  K<*ii>K  '«>•*>  thi*  lichriiiK  Ht-u  .v«u  had 
tml.v  u  Hiiiall  crew?      A.— Only  a  Himill  nvw. 

<i.— Do  yoii  rt'in«-iiili*>r  at  wiiat  (hitc  ,voii  gut  into  tin-  Hi-li- 
riiiK  Hva?  A.— Honu'whcic  Itt'twiM-n  the  4th  and  lOlli  of 
luly. 

(i.— Had  tlH'Mc  IiKliaiiH  lM't>n  in  th«'  ItclirinK  Woa  before?  A. 
— Home  of  tliein  had. 

(J. — WIk'H  did  ,voH  leave  the  HehrinK  H«'a  that  vear?  A. — 
I  think  about  the  2(Mh  AuKUHt. 

Q.— fan  .vou  give  nie  yoiii'  eateh  in  (lie  Itehring  Rea?  A. — 
<•:((>  odd  I  think  I  i-auKht :  I  aut  not  Hiire  exaetly, 

g. — DoeH  that  inelnde  any  HeiilH  caiittht  outside  Kehrini; 
Hea?  Or  Ih  it  just  the  IJeh'il.  >;  Hea  nit.h?  A.— I  think  I 
i-aut;lit  three  or  four  HealM  on  the  imttmiKe  up  the  roast  otT 
VaiK-oiiver  Island. 

Q. — Oenerally  N|ieiikiiif;,  tlies*-  (i.10  seals  were  i-aught  in  the 
ItehriuK  Sea?      A. — Ves.  all  but  three  or  f<<ur. 

Q. — What  kind  of  hunters  did  you  have?  A. — Three  of 
the  Indian  hunters  were  preen;  they  had  never  b<H'n  in  the 
ItehriiiK  Hea  iH'fore;  the  other  three  had  lH><>n  in  the  Helirinp 
Mea  before. 

Q. — In  addition  to  that  did  inythin;!  unusual  haii]>en?  A. 
— 1  lost  thr»K'  of  tlio  ranoes  about  the  l.'ltli  of  Anpust,  I 
think. 

Q. — Did  you  »'ver  find  thein  aptin?  \. — I  never  found 
them  n^ain. 

The  rommissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — Was  that 
with  the  men  in  them?      Or  did  they  simjily  >;o  adHft?      A 
— The  men  went  adrift;  we  lost  them  in  a  fojj. 


Ifii 


40 


10 


60 


Direct  examination  <-(>iitiiiued  by  Mr.  I'eters: 

y. — You  lost  half  of  your  Indian  hunters?  A. — I  lont 
half  of  my  Indians  on  tlie  l;Uli  Aiipust. 

Q. — Did  that  interfere  with  your  hunting?  A. — I  did  not 
liuut  afterwards:  I  was  hunting  fur  the  Indians  from  that 
until  I  left  the  8ea. 

ij. — Hu  that,  praetically,  your  hunting  ended  on  the  i:Uh  of 
.\ugust?       A. — Yes. 

g. — I  believe  these  three  Indians  afterwaids  got  ashore 
somewhere?       \. — They  jjot  ashore  at  Onnalaska. 

Q. — During  the  time  that  y<ni  were  looking  for  these  Indi- 
ans do  you  remember  whether  or  not  there  were  good  days 
for  tishing?  A. — There  were  two  good  days,  I  remembi'r 
well. 

Q. — And  .on  did  rot  hunt  on  these  days?      A. — No. 

Q. — Had  .'  ou  any  fear  of  being  seized  by  tlu'  cutter  tliat 
year?  A. — I  tannot  remember  now.  I  kei»t  to  the  west- 
ward, so  that  if  there  should  be  a  cutter  around  I  would  uot 
be  likely  to  fal!  in  with  her. 

Q.— You  kept  to  the  westward  of  what  line?  A.— Of  the 
line  from  Ounalaska  to  the  PrlbylolT  Islands. 

Q.— How  far  did  you  keep  to  the  westward?  A. — All  the 
way  from  40  to  100  miles,  I  should  say. 

g. — Did  you  keep  further  west  than  you  would  otherwise 
have  done  for  fear  of  the  cutter?      A.— Scmietimes  I  did. 

(^.—I  believe  that  tm  the  way  up  that  year  you  landed  your 
coast  catch.      A.— I  landed  my  coast  catch  at  riayoquot. 


i . 


'  r 


\l 


lO 


A. — Then  1  v/eut 
A. — Y»'8, 
Marvin"  of  Vic 


20 


672 

(KolK'it   K.  McKit'l— DirwJ.) 

(2. — Tlu'.y  yo>i  went  ffoni  ( -liiyociuot  to  Itehring  Sea?  A. — 
N«»,  i  went  fivui  t'la,voqnot  fur(lu>r  down  thi'  couHt  to  fetch 
ni.v  «'r»'w. 

\i. — Then  ycni  went  to  the  Hehrint;  Sea? 
to  the  Itehi-inj;  Sea. 

Q.— That  ended  the  vctya^e  foi-  1SS!>,  I  bi'lieve? 
Hir. 

(i.--In  what  ship?       A.— In  the  "E.   IJ. 
toria. 

Q. — How  many  boats  had  you?      A. — On  tlie  coast  we  had 
six  ix'unhu'  liuntintj  botits  and  the  stern  l»oat. 
Q. — Did  you  fisli  on  tlie  coast?      A. — Yes,  sir. 
ii. — Can  you  pive  nie  your  coast  caitcli  up  to  Sand  Point? 
A.— It  was"l24G. 
Q. — Did  you  land  your  coast  catcli  there?      A. — I'art  of  it. 
Q. — Did  you  ialie  any  part  of  your  coast  catch  into  IJehr- 
iufj  Sea?      A. — No,  sfr. 

i}. — Ilavinfj  completed  your  tisliin^  on  the  coast  did  you 
go  into  the  It(<hrini;  Sea?      A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q. — With  how  many  boats?      A. — With  sev<'n  boats. 
Q. — Itesides  the  stern  boat?      A. — Uesides  the  stern  boat, 
yes,  sir. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  when  you  goi  into  the  Sea  about? 
A. — I  think  between  the  4th  and  10th  of  July. 

Q. — And  you  stayed  there  until  when?      A. — I  came  out  of 
the  Pass  on  the  2nd  of  Septeml>er. 
Q. — Onn  you  nive  nn>  your  catch  in  Rehrinji;  Sen  in  that 
30  year?      A.— !)18,  I  think. 

Q. — What  sort  of  a  season  was  18!)t)?  A. — A  very  |)oor 
s«*as(m.  It  was  stormy,  and  there  was  too  much  wind  to 
hunt  in  July  and  the  tirst  part  of  .\ufiust. 

Q. — It  set  in  tine  after  that?  A. — There  was  some  flue 
weatlu'r  afterwards. 

Q. — Rut  you  did  not  luippen  to  pet  the  seals?  A. — I  did 
not  tind  them. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  when  you  ju-jictically  stopjM'd  sealing 
for  that  year — do  you  remember  your  last  day's  sealln):? 
A — I  cann<»t  remember  now,  e.xac^tly;  the  last  day  I  hunted 
was,  T  think,  the  :<Oth  or  .^Ist  .\upust;  those  were  our  last  two 
days. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  what  success  you  had  then?  A. — I 
think  I  not  about  ten  skins  in  the  two  days. 

Q. — Of  course  you  have  been  sealing  more  or  less,  ever 
since?      .\. — Yes,  I  have  been  sealing  every  season  since. 

Q. — Xow,  what  sort  of  a  crew  did  you  have  in  ISOO?  Did 
you  have  a  {rood  crew?      \. — Yes.  T  had  a  pood  crew. 

Q. — Experienced  hunters?  A. — Some  of  them  were  ex 
|K'rience(T  hunters  and  some  of  them  wer(»  green  hunters. 

Q. — Ibif  takinjr  them  all  in  all,  they  were  a  pood  crew? 
.\. — Y<>s,  sir,  a  jjeod  crew. 

Q. — .\m  a  matter'  of  fact  nie  there  any  pray  pups  caught  in 
Heliring  Sea,  or  any  nuantity  of  them?  Tell  us  your  experi- 
ence ill  this  matter?  .\. — I  may  have  got  luie  or  two  in  my 
own  experience,  but  I  cannot  rc'iiieniber.  I  think  I  remem- 
ber one  or  two,  but  no  mon'. 

(}. — That  is  in  your  whole  exiiericnce?      A. — Yes,  sir. 
(J. — .\iid  you  have  sealed  for  ten  Vijirs?       A. — Yes.  sir. 
Q. — .Vnd  you  have  only  got  one  or  two  gray  piijis  in  that 
time?  .\. — I  may  have  got  more  than  that,  but  I  cannot  re- 
member. 

Q. — Whatever  you  may  have  g«»t,  it  is  a  "cry  trifling  nuin 
ber. 


40 


50 


60 


Cross  examination  tiy  Mr.  Warren. 


673 

(Kobei-t  E.  Mi'Kiol— Cross.) 
Q.— You  wtTL'  in  the  "E.  I».  Marvin"  in  1890? 


\v:m 


A. — Vt'S, 


•11-. 


10 


Q. — What  is  lier  tonnafte?  A. — It  is  something  over  100 
t«!na  rejjiatered;  I  do  not  remember  tlie  fi>;ures. 

Q. — siie  is  <me  of  tlie  l)es(  l)oats  in  tlie  harbour  of  Victoria? 
A. — She  is  as  good  as  any,  I  do  not  say  siie  is  better. 

Q. — You  liad  seven  l»oats  and  tlie  ste'-n  boat.  Was  that 
stern  lM)at  used  for  Iiunting  in  ISiH)?  A. — On  the  coast  we 
hunted  some  in  it  but  I  do  not  remenibi>r  tliat  much'  huntin)j^ 
was  done  in  tlie  stern  boat  in  the  Hehnnn  Sea. 

Q. — Was  tlieiv  any  liunting  done  in  it  in  the  BehriuR  Sea? 
A. — I  do  not  remember. 

Q. — How  many  men  did  you  have  in  the  Belirinp  Sea  in 
1890?      A.— I  think  it  was  20  all  told. 

Q. — So  that  in  each  boat  there  were  three  men?  A. — Three 
men  in  each  boat. 

Q. — And  yon  entered  the  sea  betw«'en  the  4th  and  lOtli  of 
20  July?      A. — I  think  so.  y«'s  sir. 

Q. — What  was  your  last  lowering  day  in  1800?  A. — 1 
think  The  80th  or  31st  August. 

Q. — You  sealed  right  down  to  tlie  Pass  then?  A. — No.  I 
lowered  last  about  ($0  miles  to  the  northward  of  the  Pass. 

Q. — Did  you  go  to  the  Unimak  Pass  that  year?  A. — Yes. 
sir. 

Q. — And  you  took  018  skins?  .\. — I  think  that  was  the  num- 
ber. 

Q. — You  stayed  jiretty  late  and  you  say  that  the  season 
30  was  stormy  and  poor — did  you  try  to  make  up  for  the  bad 
weatlier  by  staying  late?       \. — Oh.  yes.  I  intended  to  stay 
late  but  the  vessel  began  leaking. 

Q. — You  were  endeavoring  to  stay  late  that  y«'ar  because  of 
its  b«>ing  a  poor  season  throughout  and  you  wanted  to  make 
up  the  results?  A. — I  would  have  stayed  in  longer;  I  had  jiro- 
visions  and  everytliing  on  board.  I  intended  to  stay  in  as 
long  as  the  fine  weather  lasted. 

Q. — You  were  outfitted  for  a  late  season  tliat  year?  A. — I 
do  not  know  as  I  was. 

Q. — Yoii  have  been  on  the  witness  stand  before?  A. — I 
have. 

Q. — .\nd  told  when  you  left  the  Sea  in  the  year  you  were 
examine*!  about?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  stay  later  in  1800  than  during  the  other  sea- 
s(uis?      A. — I  stayed  later  than  any  time  previous. 

Q. — You  were  on  tlie  Beatrice  in  1880?      A. — Yes. 

0- — What  was  tlie  tonnage  of  the  "Beatrice?  A. — About 
00  tons.  T  think. 

Q. — .\nd  you  had  six  canoes  in  the  Sea  up  to  the  l.^th  of 
.\ugust?       A. — Yes.  until  about  tha<^  time. 

0. — Did  you  have  a  slern  l>ont?       A. — Yes. 

Q. — Was  tlie  stern  boat  used  for  hunting?      .\. — Yes. 

Q. — Was  it  used  frcouently  or  infre»]uently?  .\. — Well, 
everv  day  we  lowered  th<^  stern  boat  was  used. 

0. — So  that  u()  to  the  ll^tli  of  .\ngust  yon  had  but  one  boat 
and  six  canoes  out  on  low«Ming  days'     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — .\nd  on  the  l.ltli  you  say  you  lost  three  canoes?  .\. — 
Ves,  sir. 

Q. — .\iid  jifter  that  time  you  did  not  lower  your  boats? 
.\.— No.  sir.  T  did  not  lower  after  that. 

O. — Did  von  take  nnv  seals  after  that?  .V  — T  do  not 
think  so;  I  mnv  have  jiicked  \w  (Uie  that  was  cruising  around, 
but  no  consideritlile  ninnbrr;  T  did  not  low"'r. 

0. — Von  stiived  in  the  Sta  until  about  20th  .Vugust?  .\. — 
Yes.       I  (hink  1  came  out  aliout  the  20tli. 

f^ — Did  von  find  vonr  Indians  at  Ouniilasku?      A. — I  did 
48 


,|0 


50 


60 


m 

■ft- 


^r 


'■mm 


'.    f 


t| 


lO 


20 


674 

(Itohort  E.  MfKiel — Cross.       Robei-t  J.  Kor — Direct.) 

not  find  them;  the.y  got  ashore  at  OunalaHkn,  and  went  down 
on  the  "('orwin''or    the  "Rush." 

Q. — The.v  liad  been  taken  down  before  you  arrived  at  Oun- 
alaska?  A. — Xo,  I  tliink  that  it  was  about  the  time  that  1 
left  tlie  Pass. 

Q. — You  did  not  stop  at  Ounalaska?  A. — No,  I  did  not 
stop  at  Ounalaska. 

(j. — Wli.at  boat  we»e  you  in  in  1888?  A. — I  was  in  the 
"Mary  Taylor''  on  thi!  roast. 

Q. — Did  you  qo  into  the  Sea  that  year?  A. — No,  I  did  not 
go  into  the  Sea. 

Q._Who  was  the  captain  of  the  "Theresa"  in  18ft0?  A.— 
Ste<'le. 

Q. — Is  he  in  Victoria?      A. — I  think  so. 

Q.— Who  was  the  master  of  the  "0.  U.  Tapper"  in  ISftO? 
A. — Captain  Kelly. 

Q. — Is  he  in  ^'ictoria?      A. — I  think  he  is. 

Q. — She  was  in  the  Sea,  was  she  not,  in  1800?  A. — I 
think  she  was. 

Q.— And  the  "Th«'resa"  was  in  Rehring  Sea  in  1800?  A.— 
T  suppose  she  was.  but  I  did  not  see  her. 

Q. — Who  was  the  master  of  the  "Katheriiie,"  formerly  the 
"Black  Diamond,  "  in  1800?      A. — I  do  not  remember. 


30 


•il'tv 


j)       I 


it 

I 

if 

11 


40 


50 


60 


Robert  Jameu  Ker,  a  witness  on  the  part  of  Great  Britain, 
was  recalled. 

Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Bodwell: 

Q. — Have  you  looked  over  any  further  papers  or  vouchers 
respecling  the  ( atch  of  the  "Maggie  Mac"  for  1888,  1880, 
ISOO?      A.— Y<'s. 

Q.— What  haxe  you  found  in  1880?  A.— I  found  a  letter 
from  the  captain. 

Q.— Have  you  that  U-tter?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — Will  you   produce  it?       A. — Yes. 

(i. — You  knt)\v  the  caittain's  handwriting?      A. — Yes. 

(J. — Is  that  l<>t(er  in  his  handwriting?  A. — Yes,  that  let 
ter  is  in  his  handwriting. 

Q.— What  is  the  date  of  that  letter?  A.— It  is  dated  20th 
June.  1880. 

Q. — Wlu're  was  it  written  from'      A. — From  Sand  Point. 

Q — In  the  usual  course  of  business  what  was  the  occasion 
of  writing  that  letter  from  Sand  Point  at  that  time?  A. — 
Well,  to  advise  us  of  tlu>  fact  of  forwarding  the  catch  down 
to  us  and  also  for  insurance  ])Ui'poses. 

Q. — The  catch  was  forwarded  down  to  Victoria  before  the 
vessel  went  into  Beliring  Sea,  and  that  was  the  usual  course 
of  business?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Letter  received  an-l  maiked  E.xhibit  30,  (J.B.,  Claim  No.  I 

il — What  was  the  "Wanderer"  referred  to  in  that  letter? 
A. — The  "Wanderer"  is  a  sailing  schooner  which  brought 
down  the  skins  from  Sand  Point  to  Victoria. 

Q. — Did  these  (»i;?  skins  arrive  in  Victoria?  A. — Yes,  they 
did. 

Q. — Anil  afterwards  the  schoom-r  "Maggie  Mac"  arrived 
down  from  Beliring  Sea  with  her  catch  in  Behring  Sea? 

Q, — Have  you  any  other  voucher  with  reference  to  the  year 
X800?      A. — I  have  a  letter  of  advice  from  the  captain. 


Q. 

Bir. 


6;^ 

(UolM-rt  J.  Kfi— I)iiv«t— <'i(>MH— K<'dimf.) 
-That  h'Uvv  is  in  the  captiiin'H  haiidwriting?     A. 


-Yea, 


10 


30 


Q.— It  is  dated  Xortbeast  Harbor,  Slnimign,  July  5tli,  18!)0? 
A.— Yes. 

letter  received  and  marked  "Exhibit  .'U,  (i.  U.."  rjaiin 
Xo.  1. 

Q. — What  was  the  schooner  which  you  liavr  referred  to 
there?  A. — Slie  was  a  steam  schooner  wliieh  acted  as  a  sort 
i»f  tender  to  bring  down  tlie  sJiius  that  year. 

Q. — And  tliis  letter  was  written  in  puisuance  of  the  usual 
( onrse  of  business  wliich  30U  liave  spoken  of  a  moment  or  two 
iijjo?      A.  —Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Do  you  know  wliether  tlie  1 107  skins  referred  to  in 
tliat  letter  arrived  in  Victoria?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — T)o  you  know  whetjier  or  not  the  "Magpie  Mac"  after- 
wards arrived?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — She  afterwards  arrived  at  ^'ictoria  with  the  catch  from 
20   Hehring  Sea?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Give  the  catches  for  1SS»  and  ISftO  on  tlu'  "Maggh' 
Mac?"       A.— For  18Sn,  1290;  for  ISftO.  847. 

Cross-exaniinalion  by  Mr.  Lansing: 

Q.— Does  this  letter.  Exhibit  30,  refer  to  tlie  IJehring  Sea 
catch?      A.— No,  sir. 

Q.— Does  Exhibit  Xo.  .SI  refer  to  the  liehring  Sea  catcli? 
A. — \o.  sir. 

Q. — Have  you  any  voucher  or  ])aper  in  the  handwriting  of 
(lie  captain  that  does  refer  to  the  Beliriiig  Sea  catch?  A. — 
Xo,  sir. 

Re-direct  examination  by  Mr.  Itodwell; 

Q. — now  do  you  know  that  the  skins  from  Rehring  Sea  ar- 
lived  in  Victoria?  A. — They  were  tallied  out  from  the 
schooner  on  the  arrival  of  the  schooner. 

Q. — Who  did  that?  A. — It  was  done  by  one  of  the  ware- 
housemen. 

Q. — How  did  the  report  come  to  you?  A. — The  report 
was  handed  in  to  tlie  oflici*  and  would  be  compared  with  the 
i(')>ort  or  verbal  stati'ment  of  the  contain  of  the  vessel. 

Q. — And  checked  by  you?       .V.— Yes. 

Q. — And  an  entry  made?      .\. — Yes. 

Q. — .\nd  you  ifopt  that  entry?      A. —Yes. 

Re-cross-examinafion  by  Mr.  Lansing: 

Q. — .\re  the  men  who  kept  the  tally  her*'?  A. — They 
might  be;  I  cannot  say  whether  (hey  are  or  not. 

Q. — f'otild  you  state  from  your  books  who  kept  the  tally? 
A. — Of  course  it  would  be  hard  to  say;  tlicy  would  be  turned 
in  (Ml  slips  and  taken  off  these  slips  into  the  book.  It  is  hard 
now  to  say  wliar  might  have  become  of  these  slips. 

Q. — You  do  'lot  keej)  the  slips  on  file?  A. — I  do  not  think 
s(i.  I  think  tlu>  war»>liousemen  keep  them  for  a  while,  and 
'hen  possibly  they  would  be  Torn  up. 

ii. — Is  the  same  warehouseman  in  your  employ  now  as 
llicn?      A. — X'o,  he  is  not  in  our  employment. 

Q. — Where  is  he?      .\. — I  fan<y  he  is  dead. 

(i. — Cannot  you  give  a  little  better  evidence  than  that 
about  the  matt**r?  .\. — I  cannot.  We  have  several  ware- 
liimseinen  and  it  is  very  Inird  to  say  now  who  did  tally  the 
skins  that  day. 

Ex:nnination  of  witness  closed. 


40 


50 


60 


■V^^ 
\\:i 


%\ 


Hi 


The  <'oinniissiom>r-4  tlu-n  took  recess 

At  half  past  (wo  thi"  t'ommissioners  resumed  their  seats. 


m^ 


n 


aiiiiiH^ 


ii«'iii 


(AVilliiini  (i.  Goiidie — Direct.) 

Luughliu  McLran,  a  witnosu  already  examined  in  the  ease, 
on  the  part  of  ('teat  Britain,  was  recalled,  and  continued  his 
testimony. 


20 


30 


William  (i.  Goudic  was  called  f.s  a  witness  on  the  part  of 
10  (Jreat  Britain  ;ind  duly  sworn. 

Mr.  Bodwell:' — The  evidence  of  this  witness  will  be  applied 
to  the  "Carolena"  case  and  to  all  tlie  otlier  cases  as  regards 
the  catch. 

Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Bodwell: 

Q. — You  were  hunting  seal  on  the  "MoUie  Adams"  in 
1889,  were  you  not?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — Did  you  go.  into  Behring  Sea  that  year?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Who  was  the  master?      A. — Captain  Solomon  Jacobs. 

Q. — He  is  not  in  this  country  now?  A. — 'So,  sir,  he  was 
lost. 

Q. — Did  they  have  a  mate  that  year?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Did  they  have  a  navigator?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  was  the  name  of  the  navigator?      A. — Wartz. 

Q. — Is  he  here  in  Victoria?  A.^The  last  I  heard  from 
liim  he  Avns  in  San  I''iancisco. 

Q. — You  were  a  hunter  on  board  that  schooner?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q. — During  the  whole  season?  A. — Yes,  in  the  Behring 
Sea.      I  was  not  on  the  coast. 

Q. — How  many  sealing  boats  had  you?  A. — Eight  and  the 
captain's. 

Q. — You  had  a  while  crew?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Did  you  Iseep  a  record  of  the  catch?  A. — Yes.  I  had 
it  at  one  time. 

Q.— Have  yon  got  it  now?      A. — No. 

Q. — Have  you  looked  for  it?      A. — It  is  burnt. 

Q. — You  found  on  enquiry  at  your  house  that  the  book  was 
burnt?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Do  you  know  when  it  was  burnt?  A. — Some  time  this 
last  summer. 

Q. — Can  you  state  from  memory  when  you  entered  the  Beh- 
ring Sea  tliat  summer?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q.— When  was  it?      A.— The  4th  of  July. 

Q. — Can  you  say  when  you  quit  hunting  in  the  Sea?  A. — 
No.  I  cannot.  It  was  itiong  somewhere  about  the  11th  of  July. 

Q. — You  do  not  understand  the  <)uesl'on.      I  ask  you  when 
50  you  quit  sealing  in  the  Behring  Sea?      A. — The  I5th  of  Octo 
ber. 

Q. — What  was  on  the  date  the  11th  of  July  that  you  sjKtkf 
of  just  now?  A. — We  started  sealing  about  Rft  miles  olT 
Ounalaska. 

Q. — Was  the  1 1th  of  July  the  day  on  which  you  started  se»l- 
ing  in  the  Behring  Sea?  A. — Yes,  that  was  the  first  day 
Somewhere  about  tli,'  Irttli  or  IKh  or  ilong  there  I  d«t  not 
remember  correctly. 

Q. — How  many  seals  did  yo\i  catch    in    Behring    Sea    that 
60  year?      A. — Weil,  some  where  along  ab«>ut  1,."(()0,  as  near  as 
i  can  go  to  it.      Between  l,r)0(>  and  1,fiOO  or  some  where  there 
abonts. 

Q. — Did  yon  get  seals  up  to  the  time  that  you  left  B<;li';iug 
Pea?  A.— The  last  day  that  we  lowered  was  the  .Ith  of  Octo 
ber.  and  we  got  120  that  day. 

Crosscxamination  by  Mr.  Lansing: 

Q. — Where  were  you  born?      A, — Newfoundland. 


40 


677 


10 


20 


40 


50 


6o 


(Williaiu  (i.  Uoudio — CroHS.) 

Q. — ilow  long  have  you  beeu  out  on  this  coast?  A.— 
("auje  in  1888. 

y — On  the  "Alollie  Adamn?  A. — Came  overland  from 
<  iloucester,  Masisacliusetts. 

Q. — How  nian^  yeai's  have  you  been  seal  hunting?  A. — 
Eight  HoaHonu. 

y.— When  did  you  enter  ^he  Sea  in  1888?  A.— I  think  it 
was  about  the  15th  of  July  on  the  Edward  Welch. 

Q.— When  did  you  enter  in  IS'JO?  A.— Well,  on  the  4th  of 
.luly  1  went  in  Unimak  Pass. 

y. — What  day  did  you  begin  sealing  in  Behring  Sea  in 
1888?  A. — 1  do  not  know.  I  believe  along  the  middle  of 
July  as  near  as  1  can  go  to  it. 

(I. — Cannot  you  fix  the  date  within  a  day  or  two?  A. — 
Not  for  1888,  but  1  know  it  was  in  July. 

Q. — in  1890  when  did  you  enter  the  Sea?  A.— I  was  on  the 
Sapphire  that  year. 

ii. — I  ask  you  when  did  you  enter  the  Sea  in  1890?  A. — 
Somewhere!  about  the  l-*th  of  July  in  1800. 

(i. — How  do  you  Hx  the  date?  A. — I  know  it  was  the  12th 
of  July  in  1800  or  about  there.  I  pretty  near  know  what  time 
it  was. 

il. — Are  you  sure  about  it?  A. — Well,  I  do  not  know  I  am 
certain  alwut  it,  but  1  know  it  is  along  there  scmiewhere. 

<j. — When  did  you  begin  sealing  tliat  year?  A. — W^ell,  we 
went  in  on  the  ll'th  and  we  started  the  second  day  after  we 
was  in.     That  would  give  us  the  14th. 

Q. — In  1880,  how  many  days  after  you  entered  the  Sea  did 
you  begin  sealing?  A. — 1  do  not  know  how  many  days,  but 
It  was  not  very  many  days  after. 

Q. — Answer  my  question?  A. — Probably  it  was  five  or  six 
days. 

y. — What  did  you  do  before  that?  A. — Sailed  around 
looking  for  seals,  and  passing  the  time  waiting  until  it  was 
time  to  hunt. 

Q.— What  date  did  you  stop  sealing  in  1888?  A.— The  7th 
of  September,  I  think  it  was,  we  came  out. 

ii. — That  is  when  you  went  out  of  the  Sea?    A. — Yes. 

(y — How  many  days  before  that  did  you  last  lower?  A. — 
Tile  28th  was  the  last  day  we  lowered. 

:i.—ln  1800  what  day  did  you  go  out  of  the  Sea?  A.— It 
was  the  17th  or  J 8th  of  August. 

(i. — And  in  188!)  y<»u  say  you  stayed  tliere  until  October  the 
."itli?     A. — October  .">th  was  thv  last  day  we  lowered. 

(i. — Did  you  hear  any  talk  about  an  intention  to  raid  the 
islands?  A. — Well,  we  had  been  raiding  the  islands  before 
that,  sir. 

ti. — You  had  been?     A. — Yes,  sir,  before  that. 

Q. — How  many  seals  did  you  take  otf  the  island?  A. — I 
lliink  somewhere  about  .'{tlO  or  thereabouts.  It  was  between 
:!.•)(•  and  400. 

(i.— Did  you  kill  them  with  clubs?    A.— Yes.  clubs. 

Q. — You  knew  it  was  against  the  law  of  the  T'nited  States 
to  kill  these  seals  on  this  island?  A.— In  fact,  I  did  not 
l<now  it  was  then. 

Q- — Did  you  hear  anybody  say  it  was  against  the  law  of 
llie  I'nited  Statew?  .\. — I  was  kind  of  green  in  the  country 
tlien.     I  do  not  know  as  I  did  hear  anyone  say  so. 

Q- — You  did  not  observe  anything  from  the  action  of  the 
men  or  from  the  way  the  vessel  was  handled  that  would  show 
IIh'V  were  going  to  evade  the  law,  did  you?  A. — The  captain 
was  nujster  of  his  vessel  and  he  could  do  what  he  liked  with 
IIS  in  a  way. 

Q. — How  long  after  your  last  lowering  was  it  before  yon 
I'.'iided  the  islands?  A.— I  think  it  was  the  27th  or  28th  of 
Sc|»temlM'r  as  near  as  I  can  recollect. 


M. 


,r-.i 


1 1' 


Hit 


20 


30 


40 


'I'  ' 
I' 


50 


60 


678 

(Willitiiu     (i.     (ioiKlic — f'rosH — .Uc-diicct.     Tlicodorc     Liibbe 

Dii(Mt.) 

y. — When  was  your  lust  h>w«'rinn  bi'foiv  Ihat?  A. — Oli, 
well,  HOiii<>  time  in  August. 

(2. — Was  it  before  tiie  luth  of  Aiip;uHt.  yoiiT  last  lowerinji; 
day?     A. — No,  sir.  the  latter  part  of  Aiinust. 

y. — Hetweeii  tlie  2(>th  and  L'ntli?  A. — Somewhere  there- 
abouts. • 

H. — Th»'n  when  you  say  your  total  catch  in  llehrinp  Sea 
was  between  1.500  and  l.(!0((  does  that  int-lude  the  number 
you  took  in  that  raid?  .\. — That  includes  the  whole  busi- 
ness. 

Q.— What  is  the  tonnaRO  of  the  "Mollie  Adams"?  A.— 1(>7 
tons.  I  think. 

(i. — How  many  boats  did  you  have,  hunting;  boats?  \. — 
Ei^ht  all  told. 

Q. — And  how  many  in  a  boat?  .\. — Two  in  a  boat,  21  men 
all  told,  cook,  three  in  the  captain's  boat. 

Q. — Now.  Mr.  (loudie,  in  that  raid  that  you  made  you  say 
that  you  t(M»k  about  :{(!(l,  are  you  not  mistaken  and  was  it  not 
.')74  skins?    A. — No,  sir,  I  am  not  mistaken. 

Q. — How  do  you  know?  A. — Hecause  I  pretty  near  know. 
We  counted  them  on  deck,  and  1  have  often  spoken  of  it  since 
that  it  was  less  than  four  hundred. 

Q. — Did  you  count  them  yourself?  A. — I  saw  the  captain 
countiufj  them  and  three  or  four  of  us  were  counting  the  skins 
the  next  day  when  we  were  salting  them. 

Q. — Who  was  .lie  captain,  did  you  say?     A. — Sol.  Ja«'obs. 

ti. — Who  else  aided  in  that  count  of  skins?  A. — Well,  the 
captain  counted  them  and  tlu'  navigator  counted  them,  I 
don't  know  but  that  Is  all,  he  told  us  he  got  some  4<»0. 

Q. — Did  you  count  them?    A. — I  didn't. 

Q. — Was  any  memorandum  put  down  separating  those 
skins  from  the  others?  A. — I  guess  the  captain  put  them 
do^^n  in  his  book. 

Q. — Did  you  see  any  memorandum?    A. — No.  I  did  not. 

{}. — Did  you  put  down  any  memorandum  of  the  number? 
A. — I  pr  down  a  memorandum  of  the  whole  catch.  I  didn't 
put  down  them  skins. 

Q. — Of  the  whole  seas<m's  catch?    A. — Yes. 

ii. — Did  you  keep  an  account  of  your  own  skins  that  you 
took?     \. — I  always  do,  yes. 

Q. — Did  you  count  those  you  caught  on  the  islands?  A. — 
I  never  counted  them. 

(J. — Did  you  get  a  lay  on  those  clubbed  seals?    A. — Yes. 

Q. — And  you  do  not  know  li(tw  many  you  killed  on  the 
islands?     A. — How  many  I  killed? 

i}. — Yes?  .\. — It  is  all  divided  in  one  pot.  It  was  all 
shared  alike;  still  it  was  on  the  lay. 

Q. — Which  island  was  it?    A. — St.^Oeorge's  Island. 

Ke-direct  exaniinaticm  by  Mr.  Hodwell: 

Q. — You  said  a  minute  ago  in  giving  an  answer.  4fiO,  do  yoa 
mean  that?     .\. — No,  1  said  it  was  somewhere  about  4(((). 

Q.— What  flag  did  the  "Mollie  Adams"  fly  that  season?  A. 
— The  stars  and  stripes  them  days. 

Q. — You  didn'i  say  anything  about  that  raiding  to  me  when 
I  was  asking  you  to  give  evidence  here?  A. — No.  I  didn't 
suppose  it  would  be  brought  up. 


Theodore  Lnbbe  was  <nlled  as  a  witness  in  rebuttal,  on  the 
part  of  Great  Itritain  and  duly  sworn: 

Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Peters: 


lO 


679 

(Tl»H»(l<)i«'  lail.bc— Direct.) 

Q. — Mr.  Liibbe,  you  reside  in  Vi(;toi'ia?    A. — Yes. 

Q. — And  have  done  businesB  a  number  of  years?  A. — 
Since  1875. 

Q. — In  what  firm,  Mr.  Lubbe?  A. — Martin  Bates,  Jr.,  & 
Company,  of  Xtw  York. 

Q. — And  you  carry  on  business  here?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  that  business  is  largely  in  the  purchase  of  seal 
skins,  is  it  not?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — In  18S2.  did  you  jnirchase  tlie  cat<h  of  the  schooner 
"San  IMeffo"?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Have  yon  got  your  original  entry  of  the  purchase  of 
the  "San  Diego''  in  tlie  year  1882?    -\. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — \Viiat  date  did  you  jturchase  it?    A. — September  27. 

Q. — W\w  did  you   jturcliase  it   from?      A. — Captain  J.  L. 
Carthcut. 
20       Q- — VViiat  was  tiie     exa«t     number     purcha8<'d?    A. — '.V2(i 
skins. 

Q. — You  got  'Via  seals  from  Captain  Carthcut?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q.— In  1882?    A.— 27Ui  of  Septemlwr.  1882. 

Q. — Did  tiiat,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  include  the  whole  catch? 
A. — No,  a  very  few  skins  sold  by  the  captain  to  one  of  the 
officers  in  the  customs  house. 

Q. — And  with  that  exception  you  got  them  all?  A. — Got 
30  them  all. 

Q. — Can  you  tell  me  whether  that  was  or  was  not  the 
Itehring  Sea  catch?  A. — Well.  I  can  only  tell  you  that  Cap- 
tain Carthcut  told  me  at  the  time. 

Q. — You  got  the  whole  cargo  excepting  those  few  that 
were  sold?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

The  Commissioner  (»n  the  part  of  the  United  States: — That 
depends  on  the  statement  of  Captain  Carthcut,  does  it  not? 

'^         Mr.  Peters: — The  ((uestion  I  put  was,  that  is  the  cargo  that 
he  bought  in  September,  1882. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — If 
you  are  going  to  undertake  to  contradict  Capt.  McLean,  of 
course  we  must  be  somewhat  strict  about  it. 

Q. — About  a  part  of  it  you  have  no  doubt,  Mr.  Lubbe?  A. 
— Not  the  least.     I  paid  very  high  for  the  skins,    assuming 
-o  them  at  the  time  to  be  Alaska  seals. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Yo<i  can  tell  a  Heliring  Sea  skin  when  you 
see  it?    A. — At  certain  times  in  the  year,  yes. 

Q. — Have  you  any  doubt  about  these  being  Behring  Sea 
skins?    A. — 1  have  no  doubt,  whatever. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  do  not  want  the  witness'  doubts,  if  it 
may  please  the  High  Commission,  but  only  the  facts.  Of 
course  questions  of  doubt  are  always  for  the  court. 


60 


The  Commissioner  on  the  jmrt  of  the  United  States: — He  is 
answering  as  an  expert. 

Mr.  Dickinson : — He  has  not  been  qualified. 

By  Mr.  Peters:— Q. — As  a  matter  of  fact,  what  quantity  of 
skins  have  yon  dealt  with,  Mr.  Lubbe,  in  your  time?  A. — Oh, 
a  great  many ;  I  cannot  say  how  many. 


rr 


^1 

i 

p 

' 

II 

t 

i  i  ■' 

'i 

i 

• 

lll 


'ill'lr 


680 

(TIi<'«m1oi'<'  TiUblM'— Direct.) 

Q. — Is  that  one  of  tbe  largest  lines  of  your  business?  A. — 
Certainly. 

Q. — And  is  it  your  business,  year  by  year,  to  examine 
skins?      A. — I  have  be<'n  in  the  b»isiness  for  34  years. 

The  ronuuission«'r  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — ItuyiuK 
and  selling;?      .\. — Hnyin^  and  selling  and  nianufaeturing. 

10  Ml".  IVters: — i}. — .\nd  you  iiave  during  that  time  examined 
all  liinds  of  skins,  have  you  not?      A. — Certainly. 

Q. — And  is  it  your  business  so  to  do?      A. — Decidedly. 

Q. — Now  did  you  buy  tlM>  skins  from  Ciiptain  Carthcut  of 
the  "San  Diego"'  in  the  year  188:{?  A.— Yes,  sir.  Ou  Octo- 
ber l.Uh,  boi.gl't  of  .).  L.  Carthciit  J>1(>  salted  seals.  Now, 
affording  to  the  fa])tain's  book 

Mr.  Dickinson : — Never  mind. 

20       Witness: — I  must  say  this,  the  book  shows  here  — 

Mr.  Peters: — Your  book  shows  it,  that  there  would  be  a  dif- 
ference   

The  Commissioner  on  the  i)art  of  the  United  States:— I 
think  Judge  King  and  myself  will  agree  that  you  must  keep 
within  the  strii't  rules  when  you  attempt  to  contradict  a  wit- 
ness. 

Mr.  Peters: — The  point  I  am  getting  at  here  is.  that  tlie 
JO  catch  for  Behriug  Sea  instead  of  being  32«)  was  91  (»  or  t)17. 
And  the  question  that  h<'  wants  to  bring  out  here,  and  Mr. 
Dickinson  would  not  object  to  it  if  he  considers  a  moment, 
that  book  contains  an  alteration  of  the  figures  seven  and  six, 
there  being  a  doubt  whether  it  is  !)H>  or  !)17.  The  point  is 
very  small  and  tot  worth  arguing  about. 

Q. — Can  you  tell  lue  whether  those  are  Beliring  Sen  skins 
or  not?      A. — They  were  liehring  Sea  skins. 

Q. — You  remember  when  the  sliip  arrived  from  Behring 
Sea?       A.— Yes. 


40 


50 


Mr.  Dickinson: — He  knows  as  an  expert  when  the  ship 
got  in?     A. — No,  sir,  from  my  correspondence  I  can  tell. 

Q. — Have  you  correspondence  there  written  at  the  time 
which  shows  you  all  tliese  facts? 

Objected  to  by  Mr.  Dickinson : 

The  Conmiisaioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — I  think  a 
person  could  look  at  it  for  the  purpose  of  refreshing  his  recol- 
lection. 

Q. — You  were  in  Victoria,  and  knew  of  her  arrival?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  knowing  of  lier  arrival  did  you  write  a  letter  about 
it  at  tlie  time?  A.— AVell.  on  October  11.  IHSJl,  I  telegraph 
ed  to  New  York,  in  cipher:  "San  Diego"  arrived  witli  !»(»() 
Alaskan  seals." 


60 


Mr.  Dickinson: — Tliat  is  your  telegram  to  some  one? 
— Yes.  to  New  York. 


A. 


Q.— That  shows  she  had  arrived  before  that?  A.— I  think 
she  must  have  urriveil  the  same  day. 

Q._l)id  you  tlien,  after  that,  have  some  correspondence 
with  regard  to  I  lie  purchase  of  those  seals?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— And  did  vou  actuallv  purchase  them?  A.— Certainly 
T  did. 


'"] 


lO 


20 


4& 


V-i 


"o 


68  ( 

(TIumhIoh'  hiililM' — Dii't'ct — (!r(ms — Uo-dinTt.) 

Q. — 80  tliut  .vou  are  iibli"  of  ^voiir  own  knowh-dgi-  to  Htnto 
what  niiiiibcr  ol"  hvuIh  wwv  raii|:lit?      A. — Oh,  t-crtaiiily. 

(i. — And  tlu'  nuiiitior  was  ?       A. — 'JIU,  b.v  my  coiiut, 

and  tlic  captain  8  book  showed  *J17.  1  went  through  his 
bookM  in  order  '<>  hnd  out  tiie  lay. 

(i. — Have  you  any  doubt  aboiit  tiiose  faetH!  as  to  the  num- 
l»er  of  sealH  you  bought  from  him?      A. — Not  a  partiele. 

Q. — Did  you  know  ('aptaiu  i'artiuut  pretty  well?  A. — 
Very  well. 

Q. — Was  he  master  of  the  ship  for  those  two  years?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Well,  for  any  longer  time?  A. — Yes.  he  was  the  mast- 
er in  ISHl. 

Q. — And  how  long  did  lie  continue  nuister  of  hef?  A. — I 
do  not  know;  Captain  McLean  came  in.  I  think,  in  1H88. 

Q.— At  all  events,  he  was  master  in  18M1,  1882  and  1883? 
A. — Those  thr.','  years. 

Q. — You  know  of  that  yourself?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — From  having  purchased  his  skins,  I  believe,  for  every 
.^ear.    A. — Yes. 

Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Dickinson: 

Q  . — Can  you  tell  the  diff«'renee  between  a  seal  caught  on 
the  upper  coasr  and  the  liehring  Sea  seals?  A. — During 
these  years?  , 

Q. — Will  you  answer  that  (juestion?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — From  the  examination  of  the  skins?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Suppose  a  skin  v.as  caught  outside  the  pass,  we  will 
say  in  the  Fair  Weatlier  (Jrounds  in  the  month  of  July,  could 
you  tell  where  that  seal  was  caught?  A. — If  you  will  allow 
me  to  tell  you  l  will. 

Q. — 1  am  going  to  ask  the  question?  A.—  But  I  won't 
iinswer  them. 

Q. — From  your  knowledge  as  an  expert  in  those  skins,  will 
you  swear  that  they  were  caught  in  Behring  Sea?  A. — I 
saw  the  captain's  books. 

Q. — Will  you  swear  that  they  were  caught  in  Beliring  Sea 
from  your  knowledge  of  skins?      A.— No,  I  can't. 

Re-direct  examination  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q. — Mr.  Dickinson  stopped  you  at  that  point,  you  were  go- 
ing to  say  how  you  could  tell  that  in  188,1 

Mr.  Dickinson: — This  testimony  is  admitted  because  he  is 
an  expert  in  the  examination  of  seals.  Now  it  is  apparent  from 
ills  testimony  that  he  could  not  see  where  the  seals  were 
caught,  that  his  testimony  is  good  for  something  only  because 
lie  is  an  expert.  I  have  rested  the  cross-examination  upon 
the  single  statement  as  to  whether  he  could  tell  from  those 
seal  skins  themselves,  resting  it  upon  his  expert  qualitication, 
whether  they  were  taught  on  tlie  coast  or  in  Behring  Sea. 
lie  attempts  to  tell  me  what  he  got  from  hearsay  informa- 
tion from  some  one;  but  that  is  not  pertinent  to  the  question. 
The  inquiry  is  rested  wholly  upon  him  as  an  expert  when  he 
comes  to  jmss  upon  seal  skins,  and  he  tells  me  the  only  ques- 
tion I  care  to  ask  him,  that  he  cannot  tell  from  the  examina- 
tion of  the  skin.  Now.  1  submit  that  that  cross-examination 
disposes  of  all  that  is  mat4»rial  in  this  examination,  because 
he  is  qualified  as  an  expert,  sworn  only  as  an  expert  in  his 
judgment  of  whether  the  seals  were  caught  in  Behring  Sea 
or  out  of  it. 

Tlie  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — Do  you 
think  that  is  entirely  so,  Mr.  Dickinson.  I  was  just  glancing 
at  the  testimony  given  by  Captain  McLean,  and  that  refers  to 
a  sale  of  the  skins  that  Captain  McLean  says  were  caught  in 


T;;  iillt: 


W    I        'I 


lil'ljll 


i'     ' 


t     ■' 


I  '";:n 


III 


lO 


20 


30 


6S2 

(TlicMlorc  l,iihlM«— HtMliicrt.) 

Beliriiig  Sea.  aii«l  wliirli  wcrt'  Hold  licic  to  Mr.  liubbc.  Tlu'ii 
if  you  get  tlie  transaction  of  Bale,  an*]  ilnd  that  Jt  Ih  on  a  dif- 
ferent principle,  but  of  Hip  same  year,  .vou  know,  may  you  not 
^ery  well  come  lo  tli.'  t-oucluHion  that  that  Ih  the  Hiime  tnin- 
s:iction  that  Jlr.  McT.ean  was  speaking  about,  but  that  ho  was 
mistaken  as  to  liis  numbers? 

Mr.  Dickinson:— Tlu'y  have  tlie  beneflt  of  (hat,  and  I  am 
perfectly  willing  that  the  case  should  stand  on  their  having 
the  benetit  of  the  !)!(!  seals,  so  far  as  the  number  is  ccmcenied. 
I  have  not  examined  as  to  them.  We  are  satisfied  with  tlie 
testimony  unless  he  says  thai  those  |)articular  seals  that  Mr. 
Lubbe  bought  (June  from  Itehring  Sea.  Now.  he  can  only 
say  that  because  he  is  an  expert,  and  because  experts  can  teil 
the  difference.  He  low  says  he  cannot  tell  it.  and  I  rest  it 
<  here. 

lly  Mr.  Peters; 

Q.— Mr.  Lubbe,  yon  were  asked  by  Mr.  Dickinson  whether 
or  not  you  can  state  whether  you  were  in  a  position  to  tell 
whether  these  seals  wei-e  nctiuiUy  Iteiiring  Sea  seals  or  wheth- 
er they  were  n(»l ;  and  you  said  you  wanted  to  explain.  Now 
1  simply  A  ant  the  explanation.  What  did  you  intend  to  say, 
Jfr.  Lubbe?  A.— Well,  the  Hehring  Sea'  skins  I  knew  al 
the  tinu';  I  jiaid  ftu-  tiiose  skins,  $10  ajuece.  while  during  the 
tame  year  I  shi]  j»ed  L'i,4:{('»,  and  of  the  coast  catch  r>27. 

Q. — You  paid  for  these. 

Witness: — Oh,  excuse  me,  this  is  ISS.'?. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Now,  is  it  possible  thai  what  he  paid  per 
skin  can  distinguish  the  skins?  He  is  sworn  on  this  point 
as  an  expert. 

Mr.  Peters: — This  witness  simjdy  comes  here  as  a  person 
conversant  with  certain  facts.  In  order  to  satisfy  my  friend, 
when  I  came  to  ask  him  some  questions,  I  did  show  he  was 
competent. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States:— 
What  way  has  he  of  telling  where  these  skins  that  lie  bought 
out  of  that  vessel  in  these  two  years  came  from  except  v.liat 
he  knows  as  an  expert? 

Mr.  Peters: — I  think  he  has  got  one  of  the  most  practical 
reasons;  that  is  to  say  he  paid  for  them  at  the  price  of 
Behring  Sea  skins. 

The  f'Ommissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Then. 

5°   assuming  I  am  right  about  that,  Mr.  Dickinson  puts  the  ques- 

tiojj,  "Can  you  tell  the  skin  of  a  seul  just  taken  out  of  th ; 

I'ass  from  one  just  taken  in  Behring  Sea?"       1  understand 

him  to  say  tliat  he  cannot,  and  that  is  all  there  is  of  it. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — He  stated  f\irther  and  broadly,  on  the  gen 
eral  questitm,  that  he  cannot  tell  himself  from  the  examina 
tion  of  the  skins,  whether  it  is  the  coast  catch  or  the  Behrin>i 
Sea  skin. 

60       The  (Nmimissioner  on  the  jtart  of  the  United  States: — Put 
your  question,  and  let  us  see  what  it  is. 

By  Mr.  Peters: — Q. — I  wish  you  to  explain  this.  You  were 
asked  by  Mr.  Dickinson  whether  or  not  y<ui  could  tell  the  dif- 
ference between  tliose  skins  which  you  got  there,  those  320, 
or  the  916  in  ISSo,  how  it  was  that  you  were  enabled  to  say 
that  those  were  Beliring  Sea.  as  contradistinguished  from  the 
coast  catch;  now  I  want  your  explanation? 


40 


i^' 


68  3 

(Tlicndon'  Liihlit' — Kf-cMrcct.) 

Mr.  iHtkiiiHoii: — run  il  Im*  ptiHHiltlc  lliat  iii<-oin|M-tftit  iiimI 
lM*)irH)i.v  t«'Hliiiioii.v  Clin  hi-  ]Mit  in  in  tliiH  wii.v  nndt-r  tlir  pre- 
ttnK«'  of  iin  *-.\])ltiniition,  i>H|H-cially  wlwn  it  toiilradirtH  a  man 
— luiH  a  tendency  to  contradict  liini.  and  it)  pnt  in  wludiy  for 
tliat  pnr|H)Ht',  wiien  tlie  man  wlio  may  contradict  \h  not  put  in 
tilt'  box? 

Tlic  ConiiniHHionor  on  the  part  of  tlii'    T^nitcd     Ptato«: — 
'o    I  do  not   iindcrHtand   tliat   Air.   Peters  intended   to  call  oiit 
the  inf(»rmation  wliicli  he  has  obtained. 

Mr.  I)iclvin80!i: — Wliat  elwe?  TliiH  witness  starts  to  say 
that  it  is  on  account  of  tlie  price  he  paid  for  them. 

Tlie  t'ommiHsioner  on  the  part  of  tlie  United  Hlates: — r)> 
you  intend,  Mr.  TeteiK.  1)V  Vinir  qnestlou  to  the  wiiness.  to 
call  out  anything  except  what  he  derived  from  actual  obser- 
vation? 

20       Mr.  Peters: — Xothinj;  else  at  all. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  jmrt  of  Her  Majesty: — It  seems 
to  m«',  Mr.  Dickinson,  that  this  would  Ik*  com]H'leiit  to  prove 
that  they  were  of  the  class  of  skins  which  are  known  in  the 
trade  as  Hehrin^  Sea  skins,  that  is  to  say,  if  the  trade  separ- 
ates skins  into  tw4»  <lasses,  the  coast  skins  and  lielirin^  S«>a 
skins.  If  there  is  a  demarkation  and  marked  line  known  to 
be  different,  <»ne  caught  at  a  ditl'ereiit  time  of  the  year  than 
the  other,  if  then  these  skins  were  known  to  be  ot  the  class 

,Q  of  skins  that  were  caught  in  the  latter  part  of  the  year,  and 
known  as  IVhring  Sea  skins,  I  think  that  would  have  some 
bearinp^  on  the  point,  and  mi};ht  go  to  the  full  and  necessary 
extent.  I  think  it  would  be  evidence  that  would  be  admis- 
sible, l>ecaune  if  in  the  trade  a  very  nmch  larjjer  sum  is  paid 
for  one  kind  of  skin  than  for  another,  one  cannot  shut  his 
mind  to  this,  that  there  must  be  som*>  distinction  known  to 
the  mercantile  7nind  which  puts  its  money  out  for  dilferent 
kinds  of  skins;  and  if  there  is  this  distinctitm  and  the  wit- 
ness could  speak  of  it.  I  tliink  it  would  be  competent  for  him 

40  to  do  so,  and  to  say  whether  the  skin  came  under  one  catefjory 
or  the  other.  That  would  not  necessarily  prove  that  they 
were  cau^jht  in  Itehrin);  Sea  and  not  outside  of  the  Pass,  but 
it  is  evidence  for  what  it  is  worth.  We  think,  Mr.  Peters, 
that  if  the  witness  is  cautioned  not  to  answer  anything  based 
upon  what  any  one  told  him,  but  solely  from  his  own  observa- 
tion, that  it  is  competent  for  him  to  do  so,  even  thouph  his 
answer  may  fa'i  short,  perhaps,  as  bearing  on  the  matter  of 
c(mtradicti<m.  That  is  another  thing.;  that  is  a  thing  for  us. 
Hut  so  far  as  regards  the  admission  of  the  testimony,  he  can 

5°  testify  as  to  what  he  knows  bas(>d  upon  his  experience  and 
observation,  not  depending,  however,  on  what  has  be;  n  told 
to  him  in  the  particular  case. 

Hy  Mr.  Peters: — Q. — Now,  Air.  Lubbe,  will  you  explain  how 
it  is  that  you  are  «'nabled  to  tell  whether  tiiese  seals  were 
....gat  in  Behring  S -a  or  on  the  coast?  A. — First  of  all,  by 
the  absence  of  small  sizes,  fn  those  years  there  was  not  one 
white  man  employed  on  the  west  coast  hunting,  and  in  fact, 
we  had  no  white  men  in  the  business  of  hunting  seals.  The 
60  only  schooner  then  engaged  was  the  "San  Diego."  And  wlu'n 
those  skins  arrived,  in  fact  all  these  three  lots,  I  judged  them 
to  be  Alaska  females. 

Q. — What  from?     A. — Frcmi  llehring  Sea. 

Q. — From  what  did  you  judge  them  to  be  such?  A. — From 
their  appeai'ance. 

Q. — And  what  is  the  dilTerence  between  a  seal  caught  in 
Hehring  Sea  in  July  and  August?  A. — T  cannot  explain  that. 
I  cannot  tell.     In  those  years  all  our  skins  were  taken  by  In- 


ir:;l|| 


<~i 


(•,. 


«f 


684 

(Tlit'odort'  huhlK' — l{('-<lircc« — I{»'-«t(>hh.) 

diiiiiM.  TIm  V  WfiM'  tlu'ii  pelted,  Hlietelu««l,  mid  wlitit  we  calli'd 
the  ItehrinK  ^('H  HkiiiH,  we  rail  then  AInHkan  Hkiim  HoinetiiiieH, 
thew  MkiiiH  nverapefl  in  Hize  very  niueh  hirKer,  nearly  tW  jmt 
cent.  lnrK<'r. 

(i.— They  were  handled  dItTeiently?  A.— Entirely.  Of 
course  the  wune  erew  niijrht  have  been  in  the  North  I'ai'ifie. 
Of  my  own  judpnent  I  niu  certain  I  paid  for  them  aH  HelirinK 
Ht*a  HkinH. 

ii. — WnH  there  any  dilTerenee  in  tlie  price?  A. — Ych,  Hir, 
in  1883,  for  instance,  for  1U7  I  paid  fit)  apiece  on  the  h1'"p 
in  that  year.     The  averiifje  coHt  wan  ;f5.8.'t. 

Q. — Did  yon  Imy  all  the  HkinH  that  were  1)roiiKht  in  that 
year  except  tliin  one  or  two? 

The  ConimiHHioner  <tn  the  part  of  the  I'nittHl  Htaten: — Im 
that  not  poin^  farther  than  you  are  juntitied  to  go  upon  re 
examination? 

Qnention  withdrawn. 

RecroHH  examination  by  Mr.  DickinHon: 

Q. — Wljy  did  yon  tliink  I  innulted  you  whon  I  Hpoke  of  you 
BB  an  exjH'rt?  A. — 1  have  forjjotten  what  remark  you  nmde. 
You  nuide  Home  remark  that  wan  not  very  ]>leaHant,  but  I 
have  forgotten  what  it  was;  I  have  not  tax«'d  mv  memorv 
with  it. 

Q. — You  misunderstood  me  if  you  heard  me  say  anything 
else  than  that  you  were  an  expert  A. — I  UHSure  you  I  have 
forgotten  the  circumstance  how  it  happened. 

The  rommissioner  on  the  part  of  tlie  Ignited  Btates: — I  un- 
derstood, Mr.  Luttbe,  that  you  used  the  words  "so-called  Heli- 
ring  Sea  skins;"  would  you  classify  with  the  so-called  Beh- 
ring  Sea  skins  iiny  skins  taken  outside  of  the  Hea,  just  south 
of  the  Islands''      A. — South  of  the  Aleutian  Islands  I  would. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Whether  caught  on  the  const  or  not?      A. 
— What  is  the  use  of  repeating  it?      I  have  just  made  the 
40  statement. 

The  Commissioners  rose  at  five  o'clock. 


?o 


30 


ii'ii"! 


Ootimissionera  under  the  Oonvention  of  febrnary  8,  1896,  between 
Great  Britain  and  the  United  States  of  America. 

Chambers  of  the  legislative  Assembly, 

At  Victoria,  December  23,  1896. 

At  10.30  a.m.  tlie  Commissioners  took  their  seats. 

Theodore  Lubbe — The  examination  of  this  witness  was  con- 
tinued from  the  previous  sitting. 

Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Dickinson  continued: 

60  Q. — Are  you  interested,  Mr.  Lubbe,  in  any  of  the  cases  be- 
fore the  Commission?      A. — No,  sir;  none  whatever. 

Q. — You  have  no  interest  in  the  "Favourite?"  A. — No, 
sir. 

Q. — Had  you  at  the  time  of  her  warning?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q.— No  inter.>st  in  her?  A.— Well,  what  about  the  "Fa- 
vourite?" 

Q. — Did  you  ever  have  any  interest  in  the  "Favourite?" 
A. — Certainly. 


Mi 


10 


2D 


30 


40 


SO 


60 


Q.— That  is  what  I  asked  yon'!  A.— No,  yoi  iMked  ine  if 
I  had  uiiy  intt'i-i'Ht  iii  tli<>  carn'M  iiuw  pending. 

ti.— Wlien  did  youi-  intt-it-Hi  in  tiie  "  Favourite'  ceaHe?  A. 
—  lOtli  Uet«'Hib»r,  1884. 

Q.— You  liavc  had  no  interest  in  her  since?      A.— No,  sir. 

Q.— Nor  in  tin-  "Oaward?"      A  — No,  sir. 

(i.— Did  >oH  ever  liuve  tiny  interest  in  tlie  "fJnward?"  \. 
Yes,  I  liad. 

Q. — Wlien  did  tliat  intereMl  eea»e?  A.— I  think  in  eitlier 
1883  or  1884,  or  it  nn^lit  !iiiv«'  been  in  1885  It  was  not  later 
titan  18S3;  it  was  in  188H,  I  (liin!:.  I  ean  hunt  it  up  in  tliis 
book  if  you  wisji  me  to. 

(J.— Could  .voM  tell  U8  when  your  interest  in  the  "Favour- 
ite" teaH(  d?       A.— Yes,  on  lOfli  I)e(einl)er,  1884. 

Q.— And  you  did  not  need  to  look  at  your  books  to  find 
that?      A. — I  'ooked  it  up  tliis  inorniuK- 

Q. — And  liow  did  you  come  to  look  it  up  when  you  ceased 
to  have  an  interest  in  llie  "Favourite?"  A.— I  looked  up  the 
iiisfory  of  the  "Favourite"  tliis  niornini;,  but  not  the  "On- 
ward." 

Q.— Why  did  you  look  that  up?  A.— Hecause  I  exi)ected 
to  l)e  asked  ai)out  the  "Favourite." 

(J.— And  al)out  your  interest  in  her?  A. — Yes,  I  was  in- 
terested in  six  sdiooners. 

Q. — You  had  no  interest  in  her  or  in  her  voyages  after- 
wards?     A. — No,  I  had  not. 

Q. — Nor  in  her  voyages?  A. — Nor  in  her  voyages;  no,  I 
had  not. 

Q. — ^Vill  you  be  kind  enougli  to  sliow  nie  the  entrv  relat- 
ing to  tlie  IMM)  skins  in  188,'{?      A.— It  is  here  in  this  book. 

Q. — \Yas  that  entry  made  by  you?      A. — Made  by  me,  sir. 

Q. — Will  you  be  kind  enough  to  rend  it  off  so  tliat  tliere 
may  be  no  mistake  alout  it?  A. — It  is  as  follows:  1883, 
October  13,  ('ai)tain  J.  L.  (.'arthcut  to  tlie  Hank  of  British 
North  America,  ^foOO;  then  there  is  a  note  l>eneath  winch 
says:  "Part  payment  of  purchase  of  016  salted  seals  at  f  10;"' 
then  there  is  a  little  below:  'Bought  from  f'apt.  J.  L.  f'arth- 
cut  916  salted  seals  at  flit,  .'jlO.160:"  and  immediately  below 
that:  "Captain  ,'.  L.  Carthcut  to  the  Bank  of  British  North 
America,  |8,66(»;  one  cheque,  f.100,  and  another  cheque  for 
18.360." 

Q. — Tliat  is  the  original  entry?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Now  will  you  give  ine  the  entry  from  1882  from  which 
you  testitied?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — 1  want  the  original  entry  in  your  handwriting?  A  — 
I  will  give  it  to  you.  It  is  as  follows:  "1882.  September 
27tli.  Bought  ofCaptain  J.  L.  Ca.tlicut  326  salted  seals  at 
IS,  112,608;  paid  cash  f!2.000.  bv  two  drafts  each  f  1,000,  cash 
120,  cash  140,  cash  $^48;  total,'  f 2,608." 

Q.— Is  that  the  entire  entry?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — Now  you  have  given  us  the  whole  of  the  original  en- 
tries you  made  in  both  cases?  A.— From  the  day  book;  I 
have  iots  of  correspondence  relating  to  the  skins  in  this  book 
if  you  wish  it. 

Q._Xever  mind  that.  You  were  an  expert  at  that  time 
in  seals?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Will  vou  be  kind  enough  to  tell  us  when  before  y:)ii 
had  bought  anv  salted  seals?  A.— Ye^,  sir.  I  bought  some 
in  1883.      I  sliipped  6900  in  1883. 

Q._Were  they  salted?      A.— Y''e8. 

Q. — Suited  seals?      A.— Yes,  these  were  all  salted. 

Q. — Plad  you  bought  any  seals  prior  to  that  time — you  say 
that  these  were  from  Beliiing  Sea— had  you  bought  any  salt- 
ed seals  from  Be  bring  Sea?      A.— Yes,  sir. 


ii 


ii! 


mn 


lO 


3« 


686 

(TliL-odore  Lul)be — Ki'cross.) 

Q. — WL^.t  ship  load  had  you  bought  from  Bchring  Sea  prior 
to  1882?      A.— I  bought  the  "San  Diego's"  catoh  in  1881. 

Q.— Any  otlier  ship?  A.— \ot  in  1881,  I  do  not  think— Oh, 
yes!  I  bouglit  tlie  schooner  'iluttandeau,''  but  I  cannot  re- 
member tlie  date  widiout  liunting  it  up  in  my  boolis — I  can- 
not tell  withoul  looUing. 

v^— Wlio  did  you  buy  tlie  «()(»(»  odd  seals  from?  A.— 
Many  different  peopl". 

Q. — What  ship?      .\. — Many  different  sliips. 

Q. — You  did  not  buy  them  from  Indians?  A. — No.  many 
different  vessels. 

Q. — Did  you  separate  in  the  account  the  salted  from  the 
dried  skins?      A. — Of  course. 

Q.— You  bought  GOftO  salted?  A— 1  bought  that  year 
(598.1  salted. 

Q. — ^Vere  any  of  them  from  Reliring  Sea?  A. — 1  may  be 
out  on  the  schooner  "Look  Out;"  I  cannot  place  the  "Look 
20  Out"  just  now. 

Q.— Did  you  buy  any  others  from  the  "San  Diego"  in  188.*?? 
A. — No.  sir,  with  the  exception  nf  a  very  few  skins. 

Q. — Did  you  buy  any  that  were  sent  down  by  the  "San 
Diego"  in  1883?      A.— ^She  sent  none  down  in  ^HHX 

Q. — .\re  you  positive  of  thai?  .\.— Yes.  She  sent  none 
down;  1  bought  the  entire  catch;  I  saw  the  captain's  book,  he 
made  it  f)17  but  it  was  only  010. 

Q. — Does  anyone  know  wh<'r(>  the  caittain's  book  is?  A. — 
T  cannot  tell  yon.  but  T  have  seen  the  book. 

Q. — Do  you  know  where  it  is?  A. — No,  T  am  very  sorry 
I  <'annot  oblige  you. 

Q. — It  is  not  a  matter  for  regret  at  all.  A. — Why  do  you 
not  ask  questions  fairlv?  That  book  belongs  to  rai)+"in 
Parthcut. 

Q. — You  testified  as  to  thiit  book  and  I  wanted  to  know 
where  it  was;  I  think  our  auditors,  fhe  Commissioners,  will 
n<tt  accuse  me  of  asking  unfair  ipiestions;  you  referred  to  this 
book  yourself,  and  I  asked  you  where  it  is.  and  yoti  say  you 
do  not  know.  That  seftles  that.  Now,  where  did  tlie  San 
40    Diego  go  to?       A. — San   Francisco. 

Q. — Did  you  re]>resent  any  house  in  Siiu  Fran<'isco  in  the 
l)nrcliase  of  seals?      \. — No.  sir. 

Q. — There  are  i»urcliasers  of  seals  in  San  Francisc**?  A. — 
Oh,  yes;  lots  of  them;  (juite  a  number. 

(i. — There  is  a  large  niarkel  for  the  lurchase  of  seals? 
A. — Not  at  that   time;  none  at  all  at  that  time. 

Q. — Fntil  188:{?  .\.— Yes.  Liebes  &  Co.  owned  several 
schooners. 

(.i. — I  want  you  to  answer  fully,  bei  ause  you  might  say  that 
I  was  unfair  if  I  did  nol  let  you.  Tell  us  about  the  maiket 
in  San  Francisco?  .\. — There  were  a  few  schooners  that 
sailed  out  of  San  Fi-ancisco.  and  Liebes  &  Co.  owned  several 
schooners. 

Q. — You  were  not  a  member  of  that  company?  \. — N(n 
sir. 

Q. — .\nd  were  nof    its  agent?       .\. — No.  sir. 

Q. — Now  in  your  enlries  you  do  not  menli<m  "Hehrinu  i->ea" 
seals.  I  see?       .\. — Oh,  yes. 

Q. — Not  in  these  entries  to  whi<h  vou  have  referred  to? 
A.— No. 

Q. — You  have  spoken  of  the  juices  in  1882  and  I88;{?  A.— 
Yes. 

Q. — Were  all  the  seals  that  were  caught  by  the  Indians  on 
the  coast  dried?       A. — No,  sir. 

Q- — Did  the  Indians  salt  them?  A. — They  got  some  dried 
fur  seals,  but   not  nninv. 


50 


60 


6S7 


TT 

w 

^ 

1 

l^Tln'odort   Liibbi' — lle-tross.) 


10 


20 


40 


A.- 


Q.— Did  tlu'  Indians  salt  them  in  18H2  and  18S;<? 
\vn,  iH'i'tainl.v. 

Q. — The  Indians  did?  A. — Yes,  not  on  tin*  schoonors;  I  di) 
n<»t  nu'an  tliat — I  mean  tli«>  Indians  on  tlie  coast.  Tlu\v  liavo 
trading  posts  on  the  coast  and  the  tradei-s  at  tliese  posts 
would  buy  from  tlie  Indians  tlie  sliins  wliich  they  tooli  a  sliort 
distance  oft"  the  beadi;  tlie  traders  would  then  salt  these 
skins;  I  think  in  some  instances  the  Indians  themselves  pur- 
chased salt  and  salted  tlw  skins  themselves. 

Q. — Did  not  the  Indians  dry  the  skins  sometimes?  A. — 
Yes. 

Q. — You  bou};ht  dried  skins  sometimes  did  you?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — You  distinguish(>d  them  from  salted  skins?  A. — De- 
cidedly. 

Q. — Which  were  worth  most  the  dry  or  the  salted?  A. — 
The  salted  skins. 

il. — And  a  n<'hnii}i  Sea  skin  that  was  dried  was  worth  how 
much  less  than  a  Uehring  Sea  skin  that  was  salted?  A. — 
We  never  received  any  dried  Kehriiig  Sea  skins  here. 

(2. — Well  a  coast  skin  that  was  dried  was  worth  how  much 
less  than  a  coast  skin  that  was  salted?  A. — The  prices  vary; 
the  dried  skins  are  not  used  for  dressing  and  dyeing. 

(I. — (live  us  the  ditferent  jtrices?  A. — It  is  all  very  tine? 
to  say,  but  I  cannot  do  it — the  demand  for  salt«'d  and  drit'd 
skins  is  irr«'gular;  the  dried  skins  go  to  Russia  to  be  worked 
out  natural;  they  ar«>  not  for  dressing  and  dyeing,  and  the 
]»rices  of  the  dri«'d  skin  has  no  relation  whatever  to  the  pince 
30  of  the  salted  skin. 

Q. — That  is  a  matter  for  argument  by  the  connsel,  and.  if 
you  please,  we  will  do  the  argument  ourselves.  Can  you  tell 
me  the  price  of  dried  skins  in  tSS.*}?  A. — I  could  by  refer- 
ring to  the  book. 

Q. — You  bo)ight  a  lot  of  them  right  along,  and  you  must 
have  some  entry  there  in  your  liook.  Cannot  you  tell  us 
without  so  much  trouble?  A. — No.  I  cannot,  I  might  buy  a 
few  skins  for  1  dollar  and  a  half  and  on  the  same  day  I 
might  i)ay  ^7  for  them.       It  dejM'nds  on  th(>  size. 

(i. — Well,  take  the  fjeneral  run  of  skins  tlujt  you  paid  SflO 
for  in  1SS;{?  A.— T  did  not  pay  iff  10  excei)t  for'l?ehring  Sea 
skins. 

(i- — Vor  salted  skins?       A. — Yes,  1  ship])ed  (!!)S;{  skins. 

i]. — Salted  skins?       A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — <'an  yon  find  out  how  many  diied  skins  you  shipped? 
A. — \ot  in  this  book;  if  my  invoice  book  was  here  I  could 
tell  you. 

(i. — >»<»w,  ^Ir.  Lubb(>.  suppost  t?iat  you  got  a  lot  of  dried 
■ikins  from  the  coast  and  a  lot  of  salted  skins — how  much 
less  would  you  i»ay  for  the  dried  than  for  the  salted  skins? 
A. — I  told  you  befoi-e  it  is  impossible  to  tell.  The  denmnd 
for  both  these  is  irregular.  In  one  year  (he  dried  skins  are 
wortli  nearly  as  much  as  the  salted,  .md  .^(mie  years  they  are 
not  worth  half. 

Q. — Now  I  an*  going  to  find  out  from  yon  before  we  finish 
this  examination  what  dried  skins  were  worth  on  the  coast? 
A. — I  did  not  buy  skins  on  the  coast. 

(J. — The  dried  skins  that  are  brought  friun  tli»>  coast? 
A. — I  could  find  out  if  I  had  my  invoice  book  here;  I  could 
lell  you  <li(>  exact  figure  for  the  entire  shipment  for  one  year, 
but  not  by  this  book. 

Q- — What  I  want  to  get  at  in  tlH>  fairest  way  is.  what  is 

your  best  knowledge  of  the  value  of  dried  as  distinct   from 

salted  skins  in  ISS.'t?      A.— I  think  I  could  get  it  in  this  book. 

Q — Well,  try  then.     A. — This  is  only  up  to  4th  November, 

<*<.'{,  lind    I   -annot   give  the  total   from    this  book. 
(i.— I  do  not  rare  for  the  total,     A,— That  is  the  only  fair 


?o 


60 


I 


Sil 


688 


lO 


20 


40 


50 


60 


^Theodore  Liibbe — Ri-cross.) 

comiMtriHon  bet'iuise  I  have  jjivcu  .von  the  total  Hliipincnt  of 
Haltt'd  soals. 

Q. — I  tliink  I  caRuall.v  noticed  in  that  book  entries  as  to 
.vonr  purchases  of  otter  skins  and  otlier  skins  for  October? 
A. — Yes,  tliere  are  sea  otter  skins  entered  here. 

Q. — Have  ,vou  any  entry  tliere  as  to  what  yon  paid  for  dried 
seals  dnrins  the  sam«^  season?      A. — Yes,  I  suppose  so. 

Q. — Well,  just  look  and  see.  A. — For  instance,  here  arc 
23  dried  seal,  ?74.5(),  on  Sei)teniber  2i)th,  181).'?;  it  does  not 
give  anything:  about  the  size. 

Q-— Well,  what  was  the  price?  A.— 174.50  for  the  lot,  or 
equal  to  j;?.25  a  skin  about. 

Q.— Did  you  in  ISS.'l  jmy  more  than  f.1.2r»  for  dried  skins? 
A. — If  you  will  Rive  me  time  I  will  hunt  it  up.  Yes,  cer- 
tainly I  did. 

Q- — You  did  pay  more?  A. — Yes,  certainly.  Here  on 
July  ,1rd  I  see  .T  dried  seal  at  15  each;  on  25th  "julv  i.T  dried 
seal  for  fS.IO. 

Q.— Each?  A.— No.  sir;  for  the  lot.  On  the  same  page  I  ulsn 
find  4.50  salted  seal.  ^11)77.50.  Here  is  July  20th,  ISv;!.  1!» 
dried  seal,  f5,  and  here  is  July  lOtli  4  -ri  ?'  's<'al  flO  for  the 
lot;  here  is  July  5th,  l.T  dried  seal    It;.""  I'  ,  the  lot. 

Q. — Suppose  you  look  a  little  tui-i  '  ••  a  (  he  October  en- 
try and  see  if  there  are  not  otl">.-  ilti  iiiat?  A. — Not 
likely  until  next  spring. 

Q.— Did  you  look?  A.— Well,  it  is  not  worth  while  look 
ing  because  the  season  is  at  an  end  in  October;  it  would  jio 
on  until  the  following  March. 

Q. — For  the  purchase  of  seals?  .\. — Yes.  sometimes  a 
stray  one  may  iiirive  wln'ii  the  season  is  over. 

Q. — I'll  ask  you  again  so  that  we  may  understand  it ; 
Whether  you  are  familiar  enough  with  the  catch  by  il\e  In 
diaus  on  the  coast  -ind  the  Fair  Weather  (Jroiiuds  to  know 
whether  the  Indians  themselves  salted  skins  prior  to  1N><4? 
A. — I  do  not  think  so. 

(). — .\nd  whatever  skins  that  laiiie  to  you  salted  that  were 
caught  by  the  Indians  on  the  coast  were  salted  by  traderts  on 
the  coast?      A. — Yes,  on  the  whole. 

Q. — Which  were  the  best  skins.  Those  thiit  were  salted  at 
the  tiin(>  of  the  actual  catch,  or  those  that  were  caajr'.!  'ly  hi 
dians  and  salted  afterwards  by  tradeis?  A. — The  >'  -il  ;i!;iii8, 
of  course,  are  thos(>  that  were  taken  on  board  the  ■  1  >s(>i. 

Q. — And  immediately  salted?       A. — Yes. 

Q. — .\iid  they  conniiand  the  highest  jirit"  for  h-.u  ;c.is m'' 
A. — Yes.  sir. 

(J. — You  say  that  you  could  tell  from  your  e.\ii!"inat.  n  "' 
the  skins  the  sex  of  I  lie  seal?      A. — I  did  not  tell  you  that. 

Q. — 1  so  nnd<  rstood  you  and,  if  I  did,  I  am  mistaken?  -\. 
— Well  you  iiiiisr  mipiind'M'slood  me. 

Q. — Did  you  not  reply  to  Mr.  T'eters  that  you  could  tell  the 
cow  seals?       .\. — I  could. 

Q. — At  that  time?  .\.— Yes,  I  could;  but  I  did  not  sort 
them  according  10  se\. 

(J. — When  seals  were  presented  to  you  in  1888  you  could 
tell  whetlK  r  the  seals  were  cow  seals  or  male  s  <ls?  A. — In 
75  per  cent,  of  the  cases  I  could. 

Q.— .\nd  y(m  could  tell  that  in  18Sa?       A.  -      .  iPii. 
Q. — I  thought  I  did  not  misunderstand  you  afd  ■    t;)?     .\.— 
They  are  not  bought  and  s(  id  by  sex.  they  are  noi  ,ated  that 
way. 

Q. — Is  there  a'  'ling  in  Pie  entries  you  have  made  as  to 
the  size  of  the  sci.ls  ^ou  bou?hi  off  the  ''San  Diego?"  .\. — 
No.  but  there  !,■<  1;  c.i, '•cspoiv!.;..  ,  witli  New  Y(U'k.  The  Belir 
ing  Sea  skins,  i-;  fact,  al!  <iie  riiins  taken  in  July  and  after, 
run  a  larger  si/.( . 


689 
(Tli«o.  liiiblu' — CroMH.) 

Q.— You  were  buying  senis  from  others  in  October,  1883? 
A. — No,  sir. 

Q.— That  is  the  only  lot  that  yon  bought  in  1883?      A.— I 
think  this  was  the  second  lot  that  arrived  here  from  pelagic 
sealers;  no  skins  arrived  here  from  Hehring  Hea  before,  ex- 
cept th«'  8(hoon<'r  Butfaneau. 
Q. — These  were  the  only  ones  ever  arrived  from  pelagic 

lo  sealers?  A.— If  you  have  patience  for  a  moment  111  tell 
you.  In  1881  the  "San  Diego"  went  to  hunt  walrus  in  the 
Behring  Sea  and  she  shot  a  f«'W  seals  from  the  deck  of  the 
vessel,  and  sent  boats  out  after  seals— ihis  was  in  1881.  I 
do  not  think  th;it  a  schooner  Iimh  jtut  overboard  any  boats  in 
1881,  I  think  that  they  were  all  shot  from  the  deck  of  tlio 
vessel.  She  cinie  here  in  the  aiilnmn  of  18H1  with  1!)4,  and 
Captain  Carthciit  was  master  of  her.  She  had  5.(1(10  lbs.  of 
walrus  ivory.  In  1S82  she  went  to  Behring  Sea,  and  she 
came  here  In  th.>  nntumn,  and  had  between  32fi  and  IWO  seals; 

20  I  bought  from  her  ^'M  and  a  few — three  or  four — were  sold 
to  an  ofTloer  in  the  Customs  Flouse.  1  think  she  had  then 
some  walrus  iv()ry — that  was  in  1882.  In  these  years  she  did 
not  call  here  in  the  spring,  she  was  an  -American  vessel  and 
fitted  in  San  Francisco,  the  Captain  simply  came  here  to  sell 
his  skins,  thinking  that  the  prices  would  be  higher  here  tlian 
in  California.  Tn  18S.T  the  vessel  again  arrived  here  in  the 
autumn  and  landed  sidns;  she  had  !)17  according  to  the  cap- 
tain's book,  but  it  only  turned  out  to  be  010,  and  nf»  ivory. 
They  had  been  aft<>r  walrus,  but  they  could    not    Und    one. 

30  Prom  information  I  found  ort  from  the  cajitain  I  fitted  out 
the  "Mary  Ellen"  in  1883  to  go  in  the  summer  of  1881  to  the 
Behring  Sea. 

Mr.  Dickinson:— This  probably  ,is  not  material,  but  I  want 
to  be  entirely  fair  with  the  witness,  and  let  him  answer. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  i)art  of  (Jreat  Britain: — A  good 
deal  depends  on  what  he  understood. 

Mr.  IN'ters:— The  fact  of  his  buying  the  catch  in  1881,  1882 
''°  and  1883  may  be  material. 

Mr.  DickinsoM: — lie  is  going  on  with  the  "Mary  Ellen." 

The  Witness:— I  am  giving  you  a  sluu't  sketch  of  the  seal- 
ing history. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — It  is  veiy  interesting. 

The  Witness:— Th:iiik  you.  The  fi>.c(  tliat  the  "San  Diego" 
caught  iH(>  or  "UT  in  188*3  caused  the  "Mary  Ellen"  to  be  tit- 
CQ  (ed  out  in  1884.  From  information  I  got  from  the  ca])taiu 
and  the  intelligent  jiortion  of  his  crew  on  board  the  "San 
Diego"  in  1883 — Capl.  Carllicnt  was  master,  .\le.\ander  ^Ic- 
lican  was  navigator.  From  information  I  got  from  the  cap- 
tain and  (he  intelligent  portion  of  his  crew 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Including  Mr.  McLean? 

The  Witness- — Yes,  both  the  Mcf-eans,  certainly.  Cap- 
tain Cartlicut  he  said  he  could  get  lieajts  of  navigators  in  Cali- 
fornia and  to  t;ike  Diiniel  McLean  for  the  "Mary  Ellen."  and 
so  I  did. 

Q.— That  is  r'aptain  .\h'xandi'r  McLean?  A. — No.  Daniel 
M<l.ean. 

(}. — He  is  a  biothei-  of  Alex:ind<'r  McLe:in's?  .\. — Yes,  an 
older  brother.  We  then  to<»k  Cai)tain  .Mexander  McLean 
into  the  "Favourite" — 

(}. — \t  this  -ime  von  were  interested  in  the  "Favourite?" 
-^- — Yes,  sir. 

44 


^0 


■™ 


f 


W  '     '"? 


1 '' 


!  II !  I 


■V 


10 


20 


30 


690 

(Theo.  Lubbe — Cross.) 

Q.— Is  that  all  of  tlip  brief  historj-  of  the  sealing  business? 
A. — I  could  make  lots  more  if  yon  wish. 

Q.— That  is  very  interesting.  Now  on  the  matter  of  the 
market  for  Behring  Sea  seals.  Did  you  at  any  time  give  the 
British  or  the  American  Commissioners  this  brief  history? 
A. — I  have  given  information  to  both  sides — to  the  American 
side  and  to  the  British  dide.  There  were  misstatements  on 
both  sides,  and  lots  of  them.  The  American  Consul  has  been 
to  me  time  and  again — in  fact  all  sorts  of  people  from  both 
aides — I  have  given  them  what  information  I  had,  and  I  did 
not  give  a  cent  who  might  hear  mv  information  with  regard 
to  it. 

Q. — I  refer  to  the  statement  that  my  learned  friend,  Mr. 
Peters,  himself  read  in  the  American  case,  when  we  had  a 
controversy  as  to  whelher  anything  should  go  in  as  to  the  Am- 
erican case.  Mr.  Peters  read  in  this  extract.  Page  188.  "In 
1883  the  "San  Diego"  entered  Behring  Sea  and  returned  to 
Victoria  with  2000  skins.  This  gave  an  impetus  to  the  trade 
and  new  vessels  embarked  in  the  enterprise."  Did  you  give 
any  statement  through  any  misapprehension  or  otherwise,  to 
the  American  Commissioners,  or  to  the  American  Consul, 
that  the  "San  Diego"  got  2.000  skins  that  year?    A.— No,  sir. 

Q. — Did  yon  give  a  statement  that  it  was  sin  impetus  to  the 
sealing  business?  A. — I  do  not  remember;  I  have  given  the 
American  consul — I  do  not  remember  his  name — but  he  wa^ 
the  consul  preceding  General  Roberts,  I  have  frequently 
given  him  information  when  requested  to. 

Q. — Now,  Mr.  Lubbe,  you  are  particularly  familiar  with  the 
history  of  the  sealing  business  here,  are  you  not?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q. — And  with  the  origin  of  it  as  you  have  just  stated?  A. 
— Yes.  sir. 

Q. — And  the  origin,  as  you  have  always  stated,  and  have 
stated  here  to-day,  was  the  voyage  of  the  "San  Diego"?  A. — 
Sealing  was  an  old  industry  here  then. 

Q. — You  commenced  with  the  "San  Diego"  so  far  as  pelagic 
sealing  is  concerned?  A. — Because  that  was  the  first  cargo 
40  received  here  from  pelagic  sealers. 

Q. — Do  you  always  make  that  statement  about  the  "San 
Diego"?  A. — Yes,  so  far  as  the  Victoria  trade  is  concerned. 
I  bouffht  skins  which  were  taken  off  the  island  by  the  schoon- 
er "Buffaneau;"  she  had  raided  the  Ott(>r  Islands,  but  I  can- 
not fix  the  year;  I  was  not  on  board,  but  I  heard  that  after- 
wards. 

Q. — Where  did  the  "Sun  Diego"  go  from  lure  after  she 
brought  the  seals?    A. — San  Francisco. 

Q. — ^And  in  188.3  was  the  first  season  tliai  she  hiid  been  on 
an  exclusively  jwlagic  sealing  trip?  A. — She  was  not  ex- 
clusively sealinir. 

Q.^Well.  witli  walrus  hnntinc?  A. — She  did  not  succeed 
in  iretMim:  walnis  tluit  year,  I  think, 

0. — It  was  the  first  exclusive  cargo  of  seals  that  came  of 
pehipic  sealinur  to  this  ])ort?     A.-^Yes,  sir. 

O — ,\nd  it  w:'s  iin  experini<  nt  as  it  was  the  first  one?  A. 
— Xo,  (lie  experiment  was  made  the  tw(»  preceding  years. 

(.}. — Tlia(  was  an  enterprise  ffir  walius  hunting,  and  to  kill 
some  seals  incidentally?    A. — Y<'S,  sir. 

Q. — I  am  talking  about  the  first  cargo  that  came  back, 
wliere  tlie  voviige  had  hcvn  devoted  exclusively  to  ])elagic 
scaling,  and  that  was  in  ISS.T?     A.— Yes. 

Q. — It  was  il'.e  first  market  for  seals  that  year?  A.— 
Eiglit  years  previous,  the  schooner  "Signa." 

Mr.  I>ickins(m; — Do  not  let  us  go  into  th'it  now,  because  I 
iiin  taking  up  your  own  hist(try  of  pelagic  sealing  in  Behring 


50 


60 


691 


Sen. 
Yes. 


(Tlii'o.  Lubbe — ('ross.) 
This  was  pmttlcally  an  cxiieriineut,  was  it  not? 


A.- 


A. 


T  she 

n  on 
;  ex- 

cepd 

mio  of 

?    A. 

s. 

to  \i\\\ 

bacl{. 
lelagif 

A.— 

nnso  T 
I'hriug 


30 


Q. — It  started  the  market  for  that  class  of  seals,  isn't  that 
so?    A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Was  that  voyage  followed  immediately  by  the  fitting 
out  of  other  sealers?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — So  that  it  was,  so  to  speak,  the  pioneer  hunting  voy- 
10  ng<??    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Do  j-ou  know  the  day  when  the  "San  Diego"  left  this 
port,  you  knew  the  day  of  her  arrival?  A. — I  do  not  know 
when  she  left. 

Q. — Did  she  leave  here  very  soon  after  discharging  her 
cargo?  A. — She  may  have  renuiined  ten  days  or  two  weeks 
for  all  that  I  know. 

Q. — And  sailed  for  San  Francisco?    A. — Yes. 

Q. — Do  you  know  who  fitted  her  out  for  this  voyage?    A. 
— Messrs.  Ilendig  &  Co. 
2Q       Q. — What   was   their  business?       A. — Ship   chandlers,   or 
coopers,  or  something  like  that. 

Q. — Did  you  go  on  Ihe  ''San  Diego"  yourself?  A. — Do  you 
mean  on  board  the  vessel? 

Q. — Yes?  A. — I  do  not  think  I  was.  Captain  Carthcut 
came  to  me. 

Q. — Do  you  know  whether  she  carried  any  seals  to  San 
Francisco  that  year?    A. — She  did  not. 

Q. — How  do  you  know?  A. — Captain  Carthcut  told  nie, 
and  he  was  a  man. 

Q. — Did  he  tell  you?  A. — I  saw  his  book  and  he  told  me 
so,  and  the  McLeans  told  me.  Captain  Carthcut  was  a  very 
gentlemanly  man — if  you  were  to  converse  with  him  for  five 
minutes  you  would  not  doubt  his  word.  He  was  a  man,  at 
that  time,  about  7:5  years  old — 

Q. — Yes,  we  know  that  he  is  a  vei-y  old  man  now.  Why 
is  your  altention  so  particularly  called  to  the  fact  that  you 
got  all  the  cargo  of  the  "San  Diego?"  A.— If  I  did  not  "get 
tlie  whole  cargo  I  would  assume  that  the  cargo  had  been 
picked;  if  I  buy  skins,  I  am  sure  that  I  buy  the  entire  cargo, 
40  or  I  buy  none. 

Q. — How  did  you  make  sure?  A.— If  I  know  the  captain 
fairly  well— 

(J. — The  "San  Diego"  was  fitted  out  from  San  Francisco  on 
the  first  i)ionee'  voyage  for  sealing?  A. — She  was  not.  She 
went  for  walrus  hunting  and  sealing  I  tell  you. 

Q. — Do  you  know  Morris  Mo.^r  of  Vi<toria?     A. — Yes   sir. 

(.}. — Is  he  interested  in  the  sealing  business  as  you  are  in 
any  way?    A. — I  do  not  know. 

Q. — He  is  a  good  citizen  here,  is  he?     A. — I  do  not  know 
5c  anything  about  him. 

(i. — I  think  he  was  agent  foi'  Levies  &  Co.,  of  San  Francis- 
co?     A.— Yes. 

Q. — Y(»u  know  Mr.  Moss,  we  do  not.  Would  it  chang(> 
your  mind  at  all  if  Mr.  Moss  were  to  say  that  on  that  188.*? 
\oyage  the  "San  Diego"  cangnt  2,2(I0  skins?  A. — I  do  not 
care  what  Moss  says,  Mr.  Dickinson. 

Q. — You  still  stick  to  your  statement  that  you  did  not  go  on 
(lie  shijt  to  look  at  the  catch?      A. — I  do  not  think  I  did. 

Q.^— You  did  not  see  Ihe  seals  until  they  came  to  deliver 
fio   (liem  to  yon?      A. — No,  I  would  never  do  that  if  I  had  not 
suflllcient  confidence  in  the  captain.  I  would  not  wish  to  buy 
his  skins  at  all. 

Q. — How  long  have  voti  been  engaged  in  the  business?  A. 
—Since  1875. 

Q. — Where  did  you  come  here  from?      A. — Ni'w  York. 
Q.— What  was  your  business  there?     A.— 1  w.v  buying  furn 
and  fravelliug  in  Montana  and  the  Western  States. 


uff'-''' 


I 

■\\r 

liir 


692 
(Tlint,  l.ubbc — C10S8.) 


A. — Mt'ssra.  Miirtiu,  Batvs,  Juur, 

A.— Un 


10 


20 


30 


40 


50 


A.— 

'Blnek 


Q. — For  what  eoin;t*i'u? 
&  Co. 

Q. — How  lonj?  (lit!  you  contiiuu'  in  their  employ? 
til  m»w. 

Q. — You  are  si  ill  in  tliei:-  eniploynient  ?      A. — Yes,  nir. 

Q. — And  you  have  never  been  out  of  it?  A. — It  is  a  joint 
at-eount;  for  instance,  profit  and  loss  is  divided. 

Q. — Now,  were  Messrs.  MarHn.  Mates  &  Co.  interested  with 
yon  in  the  "Favourite?"  ^Vas  that  a  joint  aeeonnt?  A. 
No.  that  is  outside    'utirely. 

Q. — Nor  in  aa.v  of  the  other  ships?      A. — No. 

Q. — You  wer.'  interested  in  five  or  six?       .\. — Six. 

Q. — Would  you  mind  telliufi  u»e  what  thev  were? 
The  "Favourite."  "JIary  Ellen."  "Onward."  "Kate." 
Diamond"  and  the  '.Mfred  Adams."' 

Q. — Were  you  not  interested  in  sealin<j  down  to  1880?  A. — 
Yes,  until  the  autumn  of  188(1. 

Q. — .\nd  you  went  out  of  the  business  wlu'u?  ^  — I  sold 
the  remainder  of  the  schooners  in  1886. 

Q. — What  was  your  interest  in  the  "Favourite?"  A. — 
Orij^inally  one-third,  one-third  or  10  shares,  was  sold  to  Alex- 
ander McLean. 

Q. — Did  you  have  any  recorded  title  of  the  on<'-third  in  the 
"Favourite?"  A. — My  sou  had.  I  am  an  American  citizen, 
my  son  is  a  Canadian. 

Q. — It  was  your  business  however?  A. — No.  I  charped 
him  with  the  money  I  paid,  and  credited  and  debited  him  with 
the  profit  and  loss  as  the  case  happened  until  the  business 
was  finally  wound  up. 

Q.— It  was  your  business?      .\.— It  was  my  son's  business. 

Q.— You  said  to  us  a  little  while  nsro  that  it  was  yours? 
A. — Well,  it  was  the  same  thine  practically. 

Q._Prartically  the  same  thins?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — It  was  your  capital?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Why  did  you  n.iention  that  your  son  was  a  Canadian 
citizen  in  that  connection?  A.— I  told  you  nty  son  was  born 
here:  I  could  n;  (  hold  interests  in  these  vessels  as  beini;  an 
.American  citizen. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  ]>art  of  the  T'nited  States: — What 
do  you  mean  by  an  ".Vmerican  citizen?" 

The  Witness:— The  Cnited  States. 

The  Commisioner  on  the  part  of  the  T'nited  States: — .\mert- 
<a  is  rather  indeflniti',  for  it  niijiht  include  Mexico  or  Central 
Amei'i<>a.  You  were  a  citizen  of  the  United  States  of  Amer- 
ica? 

The  Witness: — Yes.  sir. 

Cross-examination  continued  by  Mr.  Dickinson: 

Q. — Are  you  now  a  citizen  of  the  United  States?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q. — Did  you  '.nv»>st  any  oilier  capital  from  the  United 
States  for  sealers  here?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — I  would  like  to  know  when  you  sold  your  Interest  in 
the  "Onward?"  Not  what  it  was  for,  or  anything:  like  that. 
60  but  just  when  rou  sold  it?  A. — On  .July  7th,  1884,  as  ap- 
jiears  by  this  l;'d}jer  and  also  by  the  Day  book. 

Q. — Who  was  with  you  in  owninp  the  "Favourite?"  A.— 
Cai)tain  Sjirinp  ami  Cajttain  Peter  Francis. 

Q. — Where  is  he?      A. — They  are  both  dead. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — That  is  all  I  have  to  ask  you  this  morninjj, 
and  I  hope  you  will  acquit  nu'  of  beinp;  unfair. 

The  Witness: — This  morning  you  were  very  fair, 


10 


20 


30 


693 

(Theo.   I .ubbi'— Kc-diivct.) 
Ku-direct  exaiuiuiitiuu  by  Mr.  I'eteis: 

Q. — You  W(>reuMk(!d  by  Mr.  Ditkinsou  to  look  at  the  original 
entry  with  regard  to  the  oalch  of  188:2  and  1883,  and  in  that 
original  entry  tliere  is  uut'iing  about  there  being  Behriug  Sea 
seals,  or  anything  else.  1  want  to  know  whether  you  have 
another  entry  that  does  show  that?      A. — Oh,  yes. 

Q.~\Vliat  is  that?  A.— On  October  11th,  188.'{,  I  sent  the 
following  telegram  to  New  York:  "'Martin,  Bates  Jun.  &  Co., 
New  York.      "S^an  Diego"  arrived  with  9ttO  Alaskan  seals. 

Q. — That  telegram  contains  the  statement  that  she  had 
arrived  with  OHO  Alaska  or  Itehring  Sea  seals?      A. — Yes. 
Q. — Is  there  anv  similar  statement  with  regard  to  1882?      A. 
—Yes 

(i. — What  doos  that  tell?  A. — It  is  in  my  own  cipher,  and 
1  will  have  to  translate  it.  It  is  ,i  telegram  on  2i!nd  Septem- 
ber, 1882,  to  Martin,  Kates  Jun.  &  Co.,  New  York,  and  it  says: 
"Bought  :{26  Alaska  seals  at  ?8  privately." 

Q. — You  hav<'  stat.'d  that  y<tu  got  information  from  the 
<aptain  of  the  schooner  and  also  from  the  most  intelligent  of 
her  crew,  including  Daniel  and  A.^xandcr  McLean?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  got  information  from  these  two  parties,  did  you? 
A.— Yes. 

Q. — You  statjd  that  Daniel  McLean  had  some  position  on 
board  that  ship  in  1S82?      A. — Navigator. 

Q. — How  do  you  know  thai?  A. — Daniel  McLean  and 
Alcxiinder  McLean  lold  me,  and  Captain  <'arthcnt  told  me. 

Q. — So  that  it  was  Daniel  .McLean  was  navigator  from  what 
-Mexander  .McL(>an  told  y«»n?      A. — Yes,  sir,  <-ertainly. 

Q. — And  not  .Mexander  McL«'an?  A. — Alexander  McLeau 
was  not  navigator. 

Q. — You  were  asked  questions  as  to  Morris  Moss,  and  as  to 
whether,  if  he  said  there  were  2,(l()(>  skins  taken  by  the  "San 
Diego"  in  188."?.  you  would  change  your  mind  and  you  said 
"No."  \Vhat  hiis  become  of  .Mr.  Morris  ^loss?  A. — I  do 
not  like  to  say  anything  about  him,  tlie  man  is  dead  now. 

Q.— Did  he"  die  "here?      A.— No. 

Q.— He  lived  here?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — You  were  asked  by  Mr.  Dickinson  what  made  you  look 
up  the  "Favonrite"  today?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — You  looked  it  up  because  yon  were  asked  to?  A. — 
Yes. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Not  by  us. 


Mr.  Peters: — By  ine. 
50       Re-direct  examinaHon  by  Mr.  Peters  continued: 

Q. — It  has  been  stated  here  that  the  "Favourite"  was  sold 
some  time  about  1881,  1885  and  1880.  Do  you  happen  to 
know  as  a  fact  what  she  was  sold  for?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— What  was  it? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Well,  we  did  not  go  into  that,  and  the 
"Favourite"  is  not  in  the  case. 

Ga       The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Have 
you  not  closed  \our  <ase  ui»on  that  point,  Mr.  Peters? 

Mr.  Peters: — No,  I  have  not.  My  learned  friend  produced 
a  witness  named  McLean  who  undertook  to  swear  she  wag 
sold  for  |;i,(ll)0  r- 

Th\  <\)mniissiouer  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Not 
that  sale. 


40 


STUflpejl 


il 


^!i!l':^ 


;i!r 


'tihjnj!  i 


\m 


-'] 


^ii 


lO 


20 


694 

(Th.o.  LiiblM'— Uf din'ct.) 

Mr.  IN'tors: — 1  will  take  all  tlu'HP  sales  he  mentioned  and 
show  Ihat  lit*  was  wrciig.  He  gave  the  folowiiig  evidence,  as 
iff  I0  be  found  at  page  400  of  the  printed  record: 

"Q.— And  about  how  old  was  she  in  188«?  A.— In  1880  I 
should  think  she  would  be  less  than — I  couldn't  sa.v  exactly, 
perhaps  18  or  20  years.      I  guess  lu'r  register  would  show. 

"Q. — And  do  you  know  of  her  being  sold?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

"Q. — Do  you  lemeniber  what  s.'ie  was  sold  at?  A. — Yes, 
sir;  she  was  sold  at  rlie  rate  of  !ip;{,(UIO. 

"Q. — With  her  rigging?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

"Q. — Equipped  for  sea?  A. — .Fust  as  she  came  in  from 
sea." 

I  want  to  prove  by  thip  witness  that  she  was  sold  atf4,500 
and  McLean  must  have  known  it. 

The  Commisisoner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Did 
you  give  any  evidence  at  all  about  the  sale  of  the  "Favourite" 
in  your  case? 

Mr.  Peters: — No. 

The  Commissionpr  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — We 
think  you  are  entitled  to  show  the  date  of  the  sale  by  the 
witness. 

Re-direct  examination  by  Mr.  Peters  continued: 

Q. — Re  kind  enough  to  tell  me  what  time  the  "Favourite" 
was  sold?      A.— On  November  14th,  1883. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  T'nited  States: — ^^N'^ait 
a  moment,  Mr.  Peters,  Mr.  McLean  was  testifying  to  a  sale 
in  1886. 

Mr.  Peters: — 1  beg  your  Honour's  pardon.  There  was  no 
sale  in  1886,  and  he  cannot  testify  to  it. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — That 
is  his  statem(»nt. 

40       Mr.  Peters: — There  were  only  two  sales  of  the  "Favourite." 

The  Commis.*ioner  on  the  part  of  the  ITnited  States: — Well 
let  us  see  about  that. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — Was  she 
sold  afterwards  Mr.  Peters? 

Mr.  Peters: — She  was  owned  by  McLean  himself  until  1886. 


30 


SO 


The  Coiiimissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Was 
she  not  seized  Tn  18S(>? 

Mr.  Peters: — She  was  warned  in  1880,  that  is  the  year  that 
the  claim  arises  out  of. 

The  (Commissioner  on  the  jmrt  of  the  United  States: — Was 
she  sold  afterwards? 

Mr.  Peters: — 1  do  not  know  anything  about  sales  after- 
wards. 


60 


Mr.  Dickinson: — Then  you  should  not  make  a  statement  in 
regard  to  what  you  do  not  know. 

Mr.  Peters: — And  we  have  nothing  whatever  to  do  with  it 
afterwards. 


■U 


The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — I  see 
the  record  says  in  McLean's  evidence  that  there  was  a  sale, 
but  it  does  not  say  when  she  was  sold.  It  implies,  however, 
that  she  was  sold  in  1S86. 


lO 


69s 

(Theo.  Lubbi*— Rfdiri'ct.) 

The  CouiniiHsioner  on  tlie  part  of  the  United  States: — (To 
Witness: — Was  ehe  sold  in  1886  witness? 

The  Witness:— No,  in  1883  and  1S84. 

The  Coinmissionor  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Did 
you  have  any  inferest  in  her  In  1886? 

The  Witness: — No,  sir. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Do 
you  linow  from  your  own  personal  knowledge  whether  she 
was  sold  in  1886,  or  not? 

The  Witness: — I  do  not  know. 

Mr.  Peters: — There  is  another  reason  for  which  I  shall  ask 
this  question. 

The  CommisHioiier  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — Is  there 
20  some  doubt  as  to  tlie  date  of  this  sale.      Hy  impression  is  tliat 
it  rather  looks  as  if  jt  took  place  in  1886. 

Mr.  Peters: — My  learned  friend  has  asked  this  witness  if  he 
was  interested  us  an  American  citizen  in  certain  ships,  and 
amongst  others  the  "Favourite." 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — You 
are  taking  this  evidence  to  contradict  McLean? 

Mr.  Peters : — I  am  taking  this  evidence  in  regard  to  new  evi- 
^o  dence  about  the  "Favourite"  brought  out  by  Mr.  Dickinson. 
I  never  mentioned  the  "Favourite." 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Did 
Mr.  Dickinson  bring  out  anytliiug  in  the  way  of  a  sale  from 
this  witness? 

Mr.  Peters: — He  did  not  go  into  the  question  of  sale,  but 
he  asked  him  whether  he  was  interested  in  the  "Favourite." 


40 


The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Did 
he  ask  what  she  sold  for? 

Mr.  Peters: — 1  propose  now  to  ask  this  witness  what  she 
sold  for,  I  submit  that  1  have  the  riglit  to  ask  that.  Mr. 
Dickinson  has  '  .ought  tliis  matter  up  for  only  one  purpose, 
and  that  was  to  try  and  prove  by  tl.H  witness  that  he  was 
interested  in  the  catch  of  tlie  "Favourite,"  the  "Onward,"  and 
certain  other  ships,  and  I  am  going  to  ask  him  how  he  got  rid 
of  liis  luterest.      I  Imve  a  pertect  right  to  ask  that. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Tlu'ie 
50  is  no  objection  to  that,  but  1  do  object  to  your  asking  what 
slie  was  sold  for  in  188.'{. 

Air.  Peters: — On  what  grounds  does  your  Honour  object? 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — On 
tlie  ground  tluit  you  are  opening  up  the  case  again.  The 
time  is  running  away  very  fast. 

Mr.  I'eters: — And  I  do  not  think  that  we  are  altogether  re- 
sponsible for  it  running  away  very  fast.  We  did  not  close  our 
case  on  the  (luestion  of  value,  and,  it  is  oimmi  for  us  to  show 
that  he  sold  his  interest  in  the  "Favourite."  Is  there  any 
reason  why  I  shouldn't  ask  at  what  price — I  have  the  right 
to  ask  that,  even  if  it  were  only  on  the  ground  that  I  wanted 
to  prove  the  bona  fide  getting  rid  of  his  interest.  There  is 
evidence  put  in  here  by  the  other  side  to  show  what  Mclj«>an 
thought  the  price  was. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — You 
are  not  entitled  to  go  into  details  until  the  other  side  con- 


Ck> 


^^ 

i ' 

i 

'm 

I  i 


i 

ip- 

1 
i! 

I 

'    - ; 

'ii'lj'ii; 


30 


696 

(TIm'O.    liiiblH'— I{('«lii«'«t.) 

tt'Ht  tli<>  iirnii'iicy  <if  till'  HtatfiiK'iit  of  voiir  witnt'HH.  I  niiist 
Hiiv,  on  iii.v  own  Ix'lialf,  anil  Hi^'akint;  hh  on*'  of  tlii'  ConnniH- 
HioniTH — I  may  Hay  that  I  bi'lii'vi'  I  liavi'  Honii'  rifrlitH  licro 
with  ivfi'i I'ni-e  to  the  time  tluit  is  taken  ;]>  by  eounm'l  in  iIIh- 
]M)HinK  of  tliiH  case. 

Mr.  IVtei-H: — Kxailly.  your  llononr,  we  do  not  deny  that. 

,Q  The  ('onuniHHioner  on  tiie  part  of  the  I'nitid  Stat(>s:^You 
liavc  put  in  evidenee  loverinn  a  broader  ^ri-onnd  tlian  I  ever 
knew  before,  tourliin^  tlie  vahie  of  a  veHHel  25  years  old  and 
27  toiiH  burden.  For  my  part,  I  must  protest  apiinst  your 
o]H'nin);  tliat  door  apiin,  and  tliiis  k>v>>ik  t')*'  other  side*  tin- 
rinht  to  p)  into  it  to  anv  extent  tliey  ]dease. 

Wlien  you  are  attacked  as  to  tlie  roimI  failli  of  Mr.  Lubbe 
in  selling;  his  interest  in  ISS:;.  then  you  have  an  undoubted 
ii>,'ht  to  rebut  what  (lie  other  side  proves.  Tlie  witness  was 
not  tisked  aboii    the  nale  of  his  interest  in  the  "Favourite," 

20  ""d.  so  far  as  I  am  lonrerueil  ([  am  speaking  on  my  own  be- 
half), I  think  you  are  eniilled  to  ask  the  witnii^s  when  he 
solil  his  interest  in  the  "Favouiite."  and  then  stop.  If  my 
learned  brother  desiies  anylhin;;  more,  of  eoursi'  he  must 
have  it. 

Mr.  Peters: — With  reference  to  the  remark  whieli  your 
Honour  made.  I  admit  that  the  ('ommissioners  have  rif;hts 
as  to  the  lentjth  of  time  tliat  should  be  oeiupied  in  this  case. 
These  riffhts.  myself  and  my  associate  counsel,  are  fully  i»re- 
jmretl  to  admit.  We  do  not  dispute  them  for  a  moment, 
ilowever.  that  may  be,  w«'.  on  behalf  of  (Sreat  Hintain,  claim 
tlu'  vifihi  to  present  to  the  Commission  the  claims  of  the  dif- 
ferent claimants  in  the  manner  whiili  we  think  is  ri^ht,  and 
we  are  aware  that  it  is  true  that  this  may  take  some  time.  Hut 
we  will  see  that  it  shall  be  done  as  i]uickly  as  jtossible.  com- 
mensurate with  our  layin}!  before  this  Commission  every  de- 
tail which  >ve  may  ciuisider  important  in  the  case.  X<»  doubt 
it  may  take  some  time.  Yoar  Honour  will  remember  that  it 
has  taken  ten  years  for  the  two  governments  to  prepare  a 
means  wherelty  these  claims  should  be  tried,  and,  if  it  has 
taken  all  that  delay  — la  delay  with  which  the  claimants 
could  have  nothing;  whatever  to  do)  surely  they  have  a  rifjlit 
to  jiresent  their  claims  as  their  counsel  think  proper.  It  is 
not  our  fault  if  it  takes  time  to  incsent  these  claims.  A 
matter  of  this  kind  cannot  be  prejiared  in  a  moment,  and 
while  on  our  part,  we  do  not  dispute  the  rijj;ht  of  the  roin- 
missioners  to  shorten  these  proceedinj?s,  we,  on  behalf  of  the 
claimants,  contend  that  we  have  a  rifjlit  to  present  this  ease 
to  this  Commission,  with  whatever  evidence  we  may  think 
material.     Your  Honour,  we  ]»ro])ose  to  do  that. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  Inited  States: — I 
havi'  no  doubt  that  you  will  be  ^(raiited  all  possible  rights  in 
that  direction  by  the  Commissioners,  and  I  think  that  yiai 
can  say  that  uj)  to  the  present  they  have  ^jranted  it  to  you. 

Mr.  I'eters: — I  have  made  no  comjdaint 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States:  There 
is  no  (|uestion  on  my  jiart  as  to  the  entire  jrood  faith  of  coun- 
sel, and  there  is  no  (pustion  about  the  industry  of  counsel. 
There  is  no  ijuestion  as  to  tlu  ditlicnlties  which  surround  the 
counsel  on  both  sides.  Thoujili  c(-unsel  may  proceed  with 
the  utmost  ^ood  faith  and  utmost  dilijience  they  need  at 
times  to  be  checked  by  the  Court.  My  remarks  were  made 
for  the  purpose  of  justifying  my  attitucfe  in  objecting  to  your 
re-openinp;  the  matter,  when,  perhaps,  under  other  circum- 
stances, I  would  not  hesitate,  so  far  is  I  am  concerned,  in 
permittin};  you  to  re  open.      That  is  al!  there  was  to  the  mat- 


40 


SO 


60 


697 


lo 


(TIh'o.  Iiiil>l>(--U«'(lir»'c1.) 

tor,  niul  tlu'i'o  was  n<»tliiiiK  wIiiiIcm  r  pt'iHoiiiil.  On  tlio  other 
liaiul,  I  (liiiik  that  yon  iniiHt  hcc — not  only  from  what  I  have 
Haid,  hnt  from  my  |HTHonal  condurt  towanln  the  conuBfl — 
tinit  I  hav*'  tht'  hi)j;hiMt  rcpird  for  connm'l  on  each  Hide  and 
have  the  lii^licHt  rcHiM'ct  for  tlicir  «'nd('avorH  to  phire  thiH 
(-aM<>  h«'for<>  tli*>  <'oniiniHHion«M'H  in  an  honorablr,  cfticicnt  and 
thorough  manner.  NovcrtliclfHH,  then*  in  th»>  fact  which  ap- 
plit'H  to  all  counncl,  that  th"r(>  ar«>  tiincH  when  the  bcHt  of 
I  onn8(>l  need  to  be  cliecke.l  by  the  t.'onrt,  and  to  be  reminded 
that  in  their  zeal  tiny  are  taking  »!•  the  time  of  the  Tourt 
up<m  matters  whieli  ont;ht.  not  to  be  re-ctjtent'd. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  quite  admit  that.  There  are  times  when  it 
behoov«>s  the  court  to  interfere  and  chedc  counsel,  but  I  also 
fjH'l  that  when  t  ounsel  is  checked  in  the  course  he  is  taking, 
if  he  is  satistled  he  is  right,  then  he  is  right  to  pursue  the 
course  he  has  ado]>ted. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — No 
^°  doubt  about  that. 

Mr.  Peters: — And  if  I  am  allowed  a  few  words  of  explana- 
tion, I  think  I  can  show  the  court  that  1  am  right  in  pursuing 
my  present  course.  The  ground  1  take  is  this:  In  the  ex- 
amination of  Alexander  McLean,  who  was  a  witness  brought 
by  the  other  side,  and  greatly  relied  upon  by  them,  lu>  makes 
«-ertain  statements  of  fact — among  others — he  says  t)<at  the 
schooner  "Favourite"  was  sold,  not  stating  what  year  she 
was  sold  in,  and  when  he  said  that,  he  was  referring  to  the 

3°  sale  of  several  vessels  which  had  then  taken  place  at  a  cer- 
tain time.  Now  then,  he  claimed  to  have  certain  knowledge 
of  the  sale  of  the  "Favourite"  by  reason  that  '\e  waii  one  of  the 
persons  interested,  and  ttuit  he  himself  participated  in  the 
paying,  or  receiving  of  money,  for  the  sale.  I  propose  now  to 
prove  what  the  sales  of  the  "Favouiite"  were,  and  I  propose, 
further,  to  prove  that  his  statement  is  incorrect.  He  says 
that  that  vessel  was  sold,  and  valued  at  f 3,000,  and  I  propose 
to  prove  that  she  was  not  valued  and  sold  at  fM.OOO,  and  that 
she  was  valued  and  sold  at  a  much  higher  price.      I  propose 

^  to  show  that  McLean,  even  if  you  change  tlu»  date  a  little, 
did  not  state  fully  and  clearly  the  facts  of  the  ca'»e  when  lie 
nuide  that  bald  stanuient  that  sli;^  was  valued  at  f.'i.OOO. 
This  surely  must  be  appai-ent  to  the  court.  It  if*  ..rt  only 
the  case  of  the  "Carolena"  thai  this  evidence  is  applicable  to. 
it  is  applicable  to  all  the  cases.  It  has  been  remarked  by 
the  Commissioner  for  the  I'nited  States  that  we  have  been 
trying  the  vaule  of  a  small  schooner  called  the  "Carolena." 
It  might  be  within  the  knowledge  of  the  Commissioners  that 
all  evidence  of  value  in  the  case  of  the  "Carolena"  will,  as  n 
matter  of  course,  be  evidence  in  nil  the  other  cases.  I  ad- 
mit that  it  would  be  ridiculous  to  rM:  ■  such  a  long  time  about 
such  a  small  question  as  the  vah  i  of  the  "Carolena,"  if  that 
were  the  only  one  case  in  point.  Bnt  when  the  evidence 
applies  to  the'  vaTue  of  all  the  other  ships,  then  I  submit  that 
we  should  go  into  it  more  fully  than  if  it  only  applied  to  the 
one  case.  I  remind  your  Lordships  that  this  evidence  goes 
into  the  other  cases.  "  As  to  the  witness  Alexander  McLean, 
who  is  relied  upon  as  a  principal  witness  on  behalf  of  the 
Tnited  States,  we  claim  the  right  in  every  possible  and  fair 
way  to  show,  as  to  whether  that  witness  is  really  to  be  relied 
upon  or  not.  I  am  not  saying  that  he  is  a  witness  not  of 
truth  or  anything  of  that  kind,  but  whether  it  is  from  a  de- 
fective memorv  or  not,  we  believe  he  is  not  a  reliable  witness 
and  1  submit  tliit  I  have  the  right  to  show  that,  in  every  fair 
manner.  We  intend  to  prove  it  in  this  particular  instan<'e 
because  we  shall  show  the  two  sales  that  took  place  of  this 
vessel  in  which  he  himself  was  personally  interested. 


50 


60 


i 


y-w 


•l!l'l)l: 


698 

(Tluo.  LnbJM'—Ko  direct.) 

Mr.  Warren:— Who  wuh  interented? 

Mr.  Peters: — McLean  wuh. 

Mr.  Warren: — 3ust  aHk  Mic  witness  tliat. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States :— Let  us 
see  about  that.      I  understood  you  to  say,  after  the  first  dis- 
,Q   cusion,  that  you  did  not  otTer  this  evidence  to  contradict  Mc- 
Lean. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  said  to  the  court  that  I  liad  tlie  right  to  get 
the  same  information  ou  anotlier  ground.  That  ground  I 
stated  was:  That  Mr.  Diclcinson  cross-examined  tliis  witness 
as  to  Ameri<-an  ownership  of  tlie  v<>Hsel.  If  T  could  get  this 
evidence  in  for  no  otlier  purpose  I  could  get  it  in,  because  of 
that  very  cross  examination. 

The  Commissioner  on  tlie  part  of  Her  Majesty: — Do  I  un- 
20  derstand  then  that  Mr.  Warren,  as  speaking  for  tlie  American 
counsel,  does  not  object. 

Mr.  Warren: — He  has  stated  that  McLean  was  interested 
in  the  boat,  at  the  time  of  the  sales,  which  this  witness  has 
spoken  of.  My  understanding  is  that  McLean  was  not  inter- 
ested at  the  time.  I  did  not  ask  my  learned  friend  to  put 
any  question  on  the  record. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  TTnited  States: — I  un- 
derstand, Mr.  Peters,  that  you  offer  this  testimony  to  show, 
30   that  this  witness,  in  response  to  a  question  put  by  Mr.  Dick- 
inson, had  parted  with  his  interest  '     *he  vessel. 


40 


SO 


Mr.  Peters: — Certainly,  and  I  hu 


iglit  to  show  that. 


60 


The  Commissioner  on  the  part  01  tlie  Ignited  States: — I 
think  there  is  an  objection  to  your  going  into  these  details. 

Mr.  Peters: — Suppose  1  merely  ask,  as  to  the  value  of  the 
ships.      Can  I  do  that? 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States- — If 
Judge  King  thinks  it  ought  to  go  in  let  it  go  in. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — Could  not 
the  cross-examination  of  McLean  in  his  evidence  at  page  4<M) 
of  the  printed  record  be  made  more  definite. 

Mr.  Peters; — I  was  under  the  impression  that  it  had  been 
made  .nfiore  di>finite,  but  I  cannot  find  it  in  the  notes  now. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — I  see  tliat 
McLeai;  is  in  court  now.  There  can  be  no  objection,  I  should 
think,  tv  calling  him  and  asking  him  what  was  the  time  of 
the  sale  which  liis  evidence  relates  to.  He  could  be  asked 
what  S!iL^  he  referred  to.  There  is  nothing  on  record  as  to 
the  date,  but  the  impression  on  my  mind  is  tliat  it  referred  to 
the  sale  of  the  "Favourite"  in  1880.  However,  as  has  been 
pointed  out,  it  is  not  clear. 

Mr.  Peters:-^!  do  not  remember  his  being  asked  that  ques- 
tion. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — I 
should  think  that  that  is  Ihe  proper  way  to  proceed. 

Mr.  DickinsoH: — Your  Lordships'  I  have  not  said  much  on 
this  matter,  but  I  want  to  know  now  whore  we  are  getting  to. 
We  have  been  through  the  examination  in  chief  of  this  wit- 
ness, 1  have  cross-examined  him  fully  on  the  examination  in 
chief.  Now,  if  my  learned  friend,  Mr.  Peters,  desires  to  call 
the  witness  in  further  rebuttal,  that  is  a  claim  that  he  can 


to 


20 


iO 


40 


1O 


ro 


6y9 

(Tluo.   LiibiM'— Rcdiifct.) 

liiiikf,  but  it  Im  certainly  not  eoni|H>tfnt  to  c-roMt-cxainint',  or 
ratlMT  i'v-fX!i'i>iiu'  liini  on  a  niattt'i'  on  which  I  did  not  touch 
in  crosst'xaniination. 

Th«*  (JonnniHKioncr  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — My  im- 
preHHion  as  to  tlie  Heeond  |;round  taiien  by  Mr.  I'eters  in  that 
merely  be«-auHe  Mr.  Dirkinmin  asked  as  to  the  transfer,  it  did 
not  necessarily  o|H'n  up  nil  the  particulars  for  crossexaininn- 
tion. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  did  not  certainly  ask  as  to  the  transfer 
even.  I  asked  liini  to  show  iiis  interest  in  these  cases  under 
the  consideration  of  the  court.  He  might  b«'  influenced  con- 
sciously or  unconsciously  by  Iiis  interest  in  the  case;  I  asked 
him  if  he  were  interested  in  any  of  these  cases.  He  said 
"No."  1  then  nsk<>d  the  witness  as  to  his  interest  In  the 
"Favourite"  and  the  'Onward,"  and  he  said  it  ended  in  1883 
and  1884,  and  tliere  I  closed  it,  and  I  did  not  ask  liim  about 
any  of  the  details  of  the  transaction.  The  primary  object  of  the 
interrogation  was  to  ascertain  whether  he  had  an  interest  In 
the  vessel  at  the  time  he  was  testifying  to  or  at  the  time  of 
the  seizure.       Tie  disclosed  that  he  had  not. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  pflrt  of  Her  Majesty: — I  am  in- 
clined to  agree  with  yon  about  that. 

Mr.  Dickinson. — Now  in  the  "Favourite"  case,  if  my  learn 
ed  friend  wishi's  he  may  rebut,  we  have  not  gone  into  the 
(juestion  of  the  (;■  od  faith  of  the  transfers  at  all. 

The  romniissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — I  am  in- 
clined to  agree  with  y<»u  there.  If  it  were  clear  from  Mr.  Mc- 
Lean's evidence  that  he  referred  to  a  certain  sale  of  the  "Fa- 
vourite," in  18S0,  I  should  not  think  that  this  would  be  re- 
buttal evidence  at  all.  I  think  that  Mr.  McLean  might  be  ex- 
amined as  to  when  the  sale  to  which  he  referred  took  place. 
If  Mr.  Peters  can  show  that  Mr.  McLean  had  knowledge  of 
other  sales  he  might  go  into  that  question. 

Mr.  Peters: — As  a  matter  of  fact  there  was  no  sale  in  188K. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — If  Mr.  Pet- 
ers says  that  lie  can  show  that  there  was  no  sale  in  1880,  then 
we  might  adopt  another  course — that  is,  by  proving  the  sale 
in  1884,  and  then  proving  by  another  witness  that  there  was 
no  other  sale. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  do  not  see  how  tliere  can  be  any  ambigu- 
ity in  Mr.  McLean's  testimony.  We  were  on  the  question  ol 
valuation:  he  was  asked  about  the  "Favourite"  and  he  was 
asked  how  old  she  was  in  1880  and  then  the  question  canu' 
"Do  you  remember  wliat  she  was  sold  for?"  and  the  answer 
was:'"Hhe  sold  for  |;{,0()i»."  Then  the  question  was  put, 
"With  her  rigging?"  and  the  answer  was  "Yes,  sir."  Then 
the  question  was  put.  "E(iuipi»ed  for  sea?"  and  the  answer, 
"Just  as  she  came  from  the  sea."  The  cross-examination  dis- 
closes that  he  i.s  asked  about  that  and  he  says  that  was  the 
value,  or  adjustiflcation  of  the  partnership  made  by  tlie  part- 
ners in  1880.  Tl'ere  cannot  be  any  doubt  that  his  testimony 
bears  on  the  year  188C. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — I  suppose 
that  it  would  be  rebuttal  to  that,  if  the  other  side  could  prove 
that  there  was  no  sale  in  1880,  and  that  the  only  sale  of 
which  Mr.  McLean  could  have  knowledge  was  in  1885.  or  some 
other  year  before  that.  It  seems  to  me  that  my  impression 
is  that  he  was  sjieaking  of  a  sale  that  took  place  in  1880. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Uiidoubtedly,  that  is  what  the  evidence 
was  put  in  for. 


!:| 


i  ! 


km 


in 


illt'li 


;oo 

(Tli.'o.  l.nbhi'— K«-(lii-(Mt.) 

The  CoiimiiHHioiu'r  on  tlu'  part  of  Hor  Mjijcsty:  I  siigg«'Ht- 
«'d  one  wa.v  of  iiuvfiii},'  tlic  ditticiiU.v.  Anotlicr  way  would 
be,  if  Mr.  IVtcrs  could  prove  that  iliei-e  was  no  sale  of  tli(; 
"Pavouiite"  in  1SS(»,  then  you  open  yoiiiself  to  prove  that 
there  wuh  a  sale  of  whicli  McLean  must  have  knowledge  in 
!88a,  18S4  or  1S85,  and  then  you  could  show  what  th(>  vessel 
was  sold  for.  Either  of  tlu'se  ways  it  seems  to  me  would  b( 
lo   a  fair  way  of  apj)roaching  the  matter. 

Mr.  Peters:— Mr.  IMckinson  states  that  McLean  refers  to  a 
sale  in  188G. 

Mr.  Dickinson:— There  is  no  cpiestion  that  that  is  the  valua- 
tion referred  to  between  the  parties,  that  was  in  188«,  and 
that  is  the  poinf  Ti)  which  McLean's  attention  was  directed  in 
this  testimony. 

Mr.  I'eti'rs: — There  was  no  sale  in  188(».      It  was  simply  an 
20   arrangement  b.'tweeii  two  partners,  and  I  will  prove  that. 

M..  Dickinson: — That  is  already  in  testimony  in  McLean'.^ 
evidt'iice. 

Mr.  Peters:- With  regard  to  this  particular  evidence  which 
was  referred  to  just  now — as  a  matter  of  fact  I  had  a  note 
made,  to  examine  Mr.  Lubbe  on  it  in  direct  examination,  but 
by  some  ommission  I  forgot  to  ask  him  about  the  sale  of  the 
"Favourite."  Had  it  not  been  (hat  Mr.  Dickinson  brought  it 
up  I  would  not  have  icmembered  it.  This  morning  I  remeni- 
30  i)ered  the  matter  and  got  the  books  looked  up  to  see  what  tli" 
sale  actually  was.  I  cannot  see  what  obj«'ction  there  can  be 
\o  this  evidence — especially  when  it  is  evid«'nce  that  is  applic- 
able to  all  the  cases. 

The  Conimissioner  on  the  part  of  the  TTnited  State's: — I 
want  to  understand  your  precise  position:  You  wish  to  otft  r 
this  evidence  now  on  exactly  the  same  line  as  in  your  open- 
ing case,  as  bearing  on  the  value  of  vessels,  including  the 
"Carolena?" 

Mr.  Peters: — Your  Honour  is  not  under  the  impression,  I 
liope.  that  we  have  stopped  giving  evidence  as  to  the  value  of 
the  vessels;  we  believe  wt  gave  sufticient  evidence  in  the 
"C'andena''  case  ai)pli«able  to  that  particular  case.  \Ve  have 
been  stojtped  giving  evidence  as  to  the  value  of  vessels  in  dis- 
pute, and  I  do  not  say  that  we  were  unfairly  stopped.  As 
a  nmtter  of  fact,  when  that  evidence  comes  up  it  will  be  most 
material  evidence. 

The  rommissioner  on  the  i>art  of  the  United  Slates:— This 
'  is  ont>  of  the  vessels  in  dis])ute.  Why  do  not  yon  I'eserve  your 
evidence  according  to  the  uiideistanding  until  the  case  is 
taken  uj*.  I  do  not  in  the  slightest  degree  care  how  this 
thing  is  done,  provided  we  can  see  the  end  of  it  some  time  or 
other. 

Mr.  Peters: — 1  thought  a  little  while  ago  that  ,vour  Hon- 
our did  care  a  good  deal  how  it  was  done. 

The  Commissiouei'  on  the  i>art  of  (he  I'nited  States: — Do 
^o  you  wish  the  evidence  about  all  the  vessels  in  dispute  to  g<» 
into  his  case? 

Mr.  Peters: — If  your  H<mour  will  allow  me  to  make  a 
statenu'Ut :     The  "Favourite"  was  simply  warned  in  188(1. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — 1 
have  given  you  my  views  and  counsel  have  all  heard  nie.  I 
shall  withdraw  the  objection  on  my  part,  and  throw  the  en- 


TTon 


he.      I 


701 

(Tlii'o.  Liiiilx' — Hi'-diri'ct — Iti'-croBS.) 

tire  iTsponMibilii.v  lu'i-t'aftor  oil  couusol,  so  fur  an  these  umt- 
lers  are  concerned. 

Mr.  l'etei'H:--S«()  far  as  any  responsibility  in  that  matter  is 
ctnuer'H'd  I,  on  my  part,  i-ni  perfectly  willinp  to  assume  it. 

Tlic  Comi  .issioncr  on   the  part  of     (Jreat      Itritain: — Mr. 
Dickinson,  if  yon  come  i. cross  that  passajje  in  the  eviilen<-.! 
10  alionr  the  statenn-nt  of  [):irtnership  account,  would  you  kindly 
a'lvv  ii ;'  the  number  of  the  pa(j;e? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Yes.  sir,  I  will  do  that. 

He-direct  exasnination  by  Mr.  Peters  continued: 

(i.— Take  (he  first  sale  of  the  "Favourite'  and  tell  us  what 
year  it  was  Ic?     A. — Xovemlier  14th.  18S'{. 

g._(;ive  nie  t!ie  price?     A.— There  was  Ifi  shares  sold  to 
him. 
,Q       Q._Fo|.    what     amount?     A.— To  Caittain  .Mexandcr  Mc- 
Lean for  ¥i.n;;7.o(t. 

Q.— Wan  there  a  further  sale  in  18S4?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

The  ('(unmissioner  <m  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — Are  IC 
share's  one  (piarter  interest? 

Witness: — Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  Peters: 

i.}. — And  the  further  sale  was  made  when?  A. — On  Decem- 
jO  ber  loth,  18S4.  ('.  Sprinj;  &  (V>.  boujfht  the  "favourite"'  for 
!i!4.r)t)(». 

(2.— That  is  (he  totaf?     A.— Yes,  (54  shares. 

ii. — These  entries  are  in  your  books?  A. — In  Sprin}f  & 
Co.'s  books  which  i  kejit  al'the  time. 

(i.— Those  entries  are  in  your  l)ooks?  A. — Those  are 
Spriufj  &  Company's  boctks. 

Q. — Would  that  be  aflei-  slie  was  in  from  the  Sea?  A. — 
She  was  naked. 

(i. — Now.  you  were  asked  ab(Mit  some  other  vessels  you  had 
an  interest  in.  You  stated,  did  you  not,  that  you  had  no  in- 
terest in  any  of  the  claims?       A. — \o,  sir,  I  have  not. 

i}. — .\t  all  ex'uts,  you  have  no  intert'st  in  any  of  the 
claims?       A. — No. 

l{e-cross  examination  by  Mr.  Dickinson: 

(.i. — I  would  like  (o  have  you  ti'll  us  what  you  mean  by 
naked?      .\. — I  mean  tliere  was  no  outfit  on  boaid  of  her. 

(i. — Do  you  mean  sealinn  outfit?  A. — I  mean  not  fltte<1 
lo  }jo  to  sea. 

(i. — Sh(>  had  her  iiv^tinfj.  I  suj)pose?      A. — t'ertainlv. 

Q.— Sails?       A.-   Yes. 

(^ — Uojtes?      A — ♦  "ertainly. 

Q. — .\nchors?       A. — I   suppose  so,   she  was  com|)lele. 

Q. — riiains?       A. — T  suppose  so.  I  didn't  see  her. 

(i.— Stern  boat?      .\. — I  don't  know  anytiiintr  about  that. 

<i- — ^'ou  do  not  mean  that  she  was  not  titled  with  sails, 
ri^iflnir.  anchors  and  chains?      A. — She  was  coiujdete. 

Q. — When  you  say  "naked"  you  nu'au  she  was  not  fitted  to 
60  Ko  on  a  sealintr  voyage?      .\. — Th;-.!  is  wli.ii   I  mean. 

^i- — She  was  just  as  she  came  in  from  the  sealintJ  voyaife? 
.\. — Yes.  sir. 

(i.— Frcnn  the  Sea?      A.— Yes. 

ti— You  do  not  know.  Mr.  Lubbe,  alxnit  any  sale  or  part- 
nership valuaticMi  of  the  ship  in  ISSti,  do  you?  .\. — No,  1 
haven't  the  liooks;  (here  was  a  dissolution  of  nai'tmu'sliii*  in 
1MM7. 

<i.— You  weri'  not  inferi'sted  yourself?      A, — No, 


40 


50 


-b 


M'- 


y  iii'iii 


■Ml  . 


lO 


20 


40 


;02 

(E.  Crow  Bilker — Direct — Cross.) 

E.  Crow  Baker  was  I'ecalled  as  a  witness  on  the  part  of 
Great  Britain. 

Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Peters. 

Q. — Will  you  be  kind  enoufrh  to  look  at  your  books  and  tell 
us  what  the  catch  of  the  "Triuiupli"  in  1888  was?  A.— I 
Imve  in  my  hand  a  book  given  me  by  (Captain  Daniel  McLean, 
the  master  of  Ihe  vessel  at  that  time,  and  which  1  eonscien- 
tiouslv  believe  to  be  in  his  handwritinjr.  and  the  figures  are: 
()81  in  June;  12;{:$  in  July;  5«!)  in  August;  total,  248:$. 

Q. — ('an  you  give  me  the  number  of  boats  that  she  had? 
A. — I  am  not  positive^,  but  I  think  there  were  eleven  canoes 
and  two  other  boats. 

Q.— Then  she  used  Indians?  A.— She  had  22  or  2n  In- 
dians; I  could  give  you  exactly  by  hunting  up  my  books. 

Q.— That  is  about" it,  is  it?  A."— She  had  22  or  2.^  Indians, 
and  two  men  in  ship's  boats;  one  was  a  dory,  I  think,  and 
the  other  a  ship's  stern  boat. 

Q. — Do  you  know  where  Captain  Daniel  McLean  is  now? 
A. — I  could  only  give  it  l)y  heai'say  information  imparted  l)y 
his  brofher  the  other  day,  to  the  effect  that  he  was  some- 
where in  South  America. 

i}. — Does  that  book  you  have  there  state  the  dates  on  which 
they  are  caught?      A. — Yes. 

(By  consent  .if  counsel  the  reporter  copied  into  the  record 
tlie  dates  of  catch,  number  caught,  and  the  latitude  and  longi- 
tude of  the  July  and  August  catch,  as  fi.llows:) 

Mav  tJith,  21 ;  Kith,  27;  liHli.  7;  2(ith,  .W;  27th.  Xi;  June  2nd. 
21;  June  :{rd.  4:5;  4th,  74;  .^th.  .^,2;  (>th,  r)7;  10th,  i;M;  18tli, 
0!);  l.-jth,  14;  total.  681.  Jnlv  7.  5G,  lat.  55:44  N.,  long..  Ifi8:10 
\V.;  8th,  3\),  lat.  55:44;  l()th,"2:{,  lat.  55:44;  14th.  .'18,  lat.  54:40, 
long.  I(i8:.'{0  W.;  15th,  81,  lat.  54::{(!,  hmg.  10)8:40;  18th,  288, 
lat.  55:14,  long.  170  W.;  10th,  18.5,  lat.  i)5:i:{,  long.  1H)M  W.; 
20th,  fi4,  lat.  55:2.5,  hmg.  170:18  W.;  20lh.  250.  lat.  55:20,  hmg. 
1(>!)  W.;  27th,  12fi,  lat.  .55:1(;.  long.  1(>0:«»  W.;  28th,  74,  lat. 
54:58,  long.  1(J0:42  W.;  total  for  that  month,  12.'{;i.  August 
.5th,  41,  lat.  .55:.3:?.  long.  IfiO  W.;  8th,  107,  lat.  55:24.  long. 
170:58  W.:  12th.  28,  lat.  55—  long.  170:.50  W.;  i:$th,  98.  hH. 
long.  170-.50;  11th.  200.  lat.  .55::?8.  long.   171:20;  20th.  5, 


lat.  -hi  long.  171:20;  total,  .560. 
coast  catch. 


.■;-> 


60 


Of  the  248;{,  (581  was  the 


Q. — The  above  constitutes  the  daily  latitude  and  longi- 
tude? .\. — No,  I  think  tliere  aiv  two  days  on  which  the 
longitude  is  not  given,  otherwise  every  day. 

Q. — Those  days  are  what?  A. — Fr()m  the  7th  of  July  to 
the  20th  of  Atigust,  inclusive.  And  include  only  the  dates 
upon  which  catches  were  mad' .  The  two  days  when  the 
longitude  is  not  given  are  tin   8th  and  10th  of  July. 

('ross-exainiuiition  by  ^.Ir.   I)i<kinson. 

Q. — This  book  is  the  book  from  whidi  you  testified,  and 
the  only  (Uie?       A.— It  is. 

(Book  marked  \o.  14  foi'  identification.) 

Q. — I  believe  you  can  give  the  numb'T  of  canoes  accur- 
ately? .\. — .\t  this  moment,  no;  but  I  am 'almost  certahi 
that  there  were  eleven  canoes  and  tw<)  ordinary  ship's  br)ats. 

ti. — -\nd  what  was  the  tonnage  of  the  "Triumph?''  A. — 
Oross  tonnage  100;  n"t,  07  and  a  fractifm. 

Q. — Do  you  know  the  number  of  men  she  carried  at  that 
time?  A.--Ves.  There  was  the  master  and  four  men.  and 
there  was  a  s|M'cial  Indian  who  was  not  a  hunter. 

tj.— That  is  six?      A.— Ves. 


m 


703 

(E.  Crow  Hakcr— Cross.      S.  Bucknam — Direct.) 

Q. — And  she  carried  a  stern  boat,  I  supiwse?      A. — Yes. 
Q. — And  a  dory?      A.— I  tliink  a  dory,  broiiglit  from  Nova 
Scotia. 


'°       Samuel  W.  Bucknam  was  called  as  a  witness  on  the  part 
of  Groat  Britaia  in  rebuttal,  and  was  duly  sworn. 

Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Peters. 

Q. — Where  do  you  live?      A. — Victoria. 

Q. — Have  you  been  engaged  in  sealing?      A. — I  have. 

Q. — Were  you  in  the  sdiooner  "Ariel"  at  one  time?      A. — 
Yes. 

Q.— What  year?    A.— 1889. 
30       Q. — In   what  capacity?       A. — Master. 

Q. — How  many  boats  did  the  "Ariel''  carry  in  1889,  or  can- 
oes?     A. — Six  boats. 

Mr.  Lansing: — The  catch  of  the  "Ariel"  is  involved,  is  it 
not? 

Mr.  Peters: — 1  cannot  help  that.      It  affects  every  case.      I 
am  only  giving  the  fact  of  the  catch. 

Mr.    Dickinson: — It    is  only    a  matter    of   order,    and    the 
^,0   only  point  I  take  is  that  we  are  not  prepared  for  our  cross- 
examination. 

The  Commiasoner  on  the  part  of  the  Unted  States: — Is 
this  the  year  1889,  Mr.  Peters? 

Mr.  I'eters: — It  is. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — This  case  is  involved  and  this  is  a  part  of 
their  measure  of    lamages. 


40 


By  Mr.  Petern. 


Q. — You  were  in  the  ''Ariel'"      A. — Yes. 

Q. — When  did  you  go  into  i  lie  sea?  A. — I  don't  know  the 
date.      It  was  about  the  KMh  of  Tiily. 

Q. — And  how  long  did  vou  stay  in  the  sea?  A. — Came  out 
about  the  3(>th  of  July,  I  think.' 

Q. — I  want  to  know  the  date  you  went  out;  how  long  did 
you  flsh  there?  A. — I  don't  know  the  date.  The  ship's 
books  are  lost  and  the  log  book  also. 

Q. — Yon  were  there  all  of  Julv,  at  all  events?  A. — About 
50  all  of  July. 

Q. — How  many  seals  did  you  catch? 

The  CommiRsioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'liitcd  States: — I 
thought  the  underKtanding  was  that  you  would  not  go  into 
these  cases  that  are  in  controversy? 

Mr.  Peters: — The  question  of  catch,  no  matter  whether  in 
controverNV  or  not,  is  mateilal  in  regard  to  (»ther  8hii)s,  espec- 
ially for  the  year  ISSO.  The  year  18S9  stands  differently 
from  any  other  year,  because  the  seiziiies  took  place  at  very 
00  different  periods  from  the  early  part  of  July. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  T'nited  States: — I  do 
not  know  that  we  have  any  control  over  counsel  in  the  mat- 
ter.     I  .simply  said  I  thought  that  was  the  understanding. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — We  have  had  a  conference  in  regard  to 
that,  and  my  friend  Mr.  Peters  says  he  will  produce  the  wit- 
ness later  for  cross  examination, 


} 

?! 

U]' 
"I 


'.y 


111' : 


:iiH|iiii 


II 


704 

(S.  W.  liiK'kuam — Direct — Cross.) 

.Mr.  Peters: — This  evidence  will  not  be  repeated, 
only  be  given  oi'ce. 

Direct  examination  coniinned  hy  Mr.  I'eters: 


It  will 


10 


20 


30 


Q. — Now  then,  do  you  remember  your  catch,  Captain  Buck- 
nani?      A. — I  think  it  was  844  in  Behring  Sea. 
(i. — What  tounape  was  the  "Ariel?"     A. — Ninety-one  tons. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Iler  Majesty: — The  boats; 
he  said  six,  I  think? 

Q. — How  many  canoes  did  you  say  you  had?       A. — She 
had  a  white  crew  in  lS8f(;  six  boats. 
Q. — And  a  stem  boat?      A. — No  stern  boat. 
Q. — Six  hunting  boats?      A. — Six  hunting  boats. 

Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Warren: 

Q  — You  did  not  state  that  you  went  out  during  the  month 
of  July,  did  you?  A.— I  said  I  was  ordered  out  on  the  30th 
of  July.      (Question  read  by  reporter.) 

A.— No. 

Q- — You  do  'lot  claim  liiat  you  went  out  when  you  were 
wiuned  out,  do  you?      A. — No. 

Q. — Now  you  lost  a  boat  right  after  you  were  warned  out, 
did  you  not?      A. — Yes. 

Q.— How  lonj:  did  you  look  for  that  boat?  A.— I  think 
about  a  week    n    ten  da  vs. 

Q. — It  wa.s  longer  than  ten  days,  was  it  not?  A. — I  do 
not   remember. 

Q. — You  tooK  seals  all  the  time  you  were  looking  for  it, 
did  you  not?      A. — Some  of  the  time. 

Q. — You  took  444  while  you  were  looking  for  it,  did  vou 
not?       A.— About  that,  yes. 

Q. — Now  just  I'emomber,  Captain  Bucknam.  the  best  you 

can,  how  many  days  yo)i  were  in  the  sea    after  you    were 

warned?      You  said  ten.      Now  it  was  more  than  ten,  was 

it  not?      A. — T  couldn't  say  how  many  dii-s.      It  might  have 

40    been  a  couple  of  weeks  or  thereabouts. 

Q. — Now  you  liave  got  up  to  fourteen  days,  do  you  think  it 
was  more  than  fourteen?  A. — Well,  I  have  lost  the  record; 
I  do  not  know  how  long  it  was. 

Q. — That  is  the  reason  I  want  your  best  recollection,  be 
cause  you  have  lost  your  record.  You  stated  it  to  be  ten 
or  fourteen  days;  now  was  it  not  more  than  fourteen?  A. — 
It  may  have  been.  I  got  about  400  seals  .'ifter  I  was  ordered 
out. 

(i. — You  know  what  day  you  went  out  of  Behring  Sea,  do 
S^   you  not?      A. — No,  I  do  not. 

Q.— Was  it  not  the  21st  of  August?  A.— I  don't  know 
that. 

Q. — Did  you  not  make  an  affidavit  once  that  you  went  out 
of  Behring  Sea  on  (lie  21st  of  .\ugust?  A. — Yes,  in  making 
up  the  claim  I  suppose  I  would. 

Q. — Do  you  suppose  you  would  jtut  in  the  21st  of  Augusr 
as  the  date  un!;ss  thai  was  right?  A. — I  tried  to  have  that 
right. 

Q. — What  is  your  recollection  about  it  now  then?  Was 
it  the  21st  of  August  when  you  went  out  of  the  sea  or  earlier? 
A. — I  mad<'  tha."  statement  six  or  seven  years  ago.  I  have 
foi'gotten. 

Q. — I  am  asking  about  your  recollection  when  you  went 
out  of  the  sea?  A. — I  haven't  the  slightest  recollection  about 
it. 

Q. — How  many  skins  did  you  have  when  you  were  warned? 
A. — Somewhere  about  440,  I  think, 


00 


70S 


(H.  W.  ItiK-kiiaiii — Cioss.) 

Q.— Voii  had  40(»,  had  yon  iiof?    A.— 400. 

Q. — And  afli'i-  .voii  were  warnt'd  out  .v<mi  took  444?  A. — I 
tliink  tliat  is  thi'  niiinbor. 

(i. — So  tliat  ^oii  took  iHorc  HkiiiN  after  you  were  warued 
than  .von  did  before;  that  is  concet,  ih  it  liot?  A. — 1  took 
more. 

Q. — J>id  .vou  Jind  that  boat  you  wimv  looking;  all  those  days 


lo   for 


40 


-Xo,  I  didn't  find  it. 


Q. — l>id  you  ever  hear  of  tlie  boat  afterwards? 


-I  did. 


-I  liad  the  boats  out 


Q.— Where  did  tlie  boat  land?  .\.— Aboard  of  an  Indian 
sehooner  jioinp;  to  Ncah  Kay. 

Q. — At  what  time  did  she  get  aboard  the  schooner?  A. — 
The  ne,\v  day  after  she  was  lost  from  us. 

Q. — \ow.  you  do  not  claim  to  have  looked  for  that  boat 
21  days,  do  yon?       A. — We  cruised  about  making  inquiries 

(2- — The  facr   is.  you    vent   sealiufi  for  twenty-one  days? 
.\.— Not  on  tlh'  sealing  ^troiind  proju'r. 
20       Q. — Vou  seal  '<i  lw<'!ity-<ine  days?     .\ 
iiflerwards. 

Q. — .\nd  you  Rot  more  seals  after  you  were  warned  than 
befoie?       (Witness  nods  aflirmatively.) 

Q. — I  will  ask  you  lo  look  at  an  aftidavit  found  on  pages  200 
and  201  of  volume  4  of  the  American  liepi'int.  and  I  ask  you 
if  that  is  a  copy  of  an  affidavit  you  made  here  in  Victoria  on 
the  2!Mh  day  of  November,  ISM!)?  A. — (K.Kamininfi) — Ve» 
Ihat  is  a  copy.  I  believe. 

(i. — This  atlidavit  is  made  on  the  2!>th  day  of  November, 

30    I  SS)(.  and  I  suppose  your  recolleeti<»u  of  when  you  left  the  Bea 

would  be  fresher  at  that  tinu'  than  it  is  now?    A. — Yes.  sii. 

(i. — Did  you  state  in  that  affidavit  that  on  the  21st  day  of 
.Vupust  tln»  ".Vriel"  sailed  out  of  Kehring  Sea  homewan' 
bound  with  844  sealskins  on  board?  A. — (Examining)-- 
Ves. 

Q.— So  that  the  "Ariel"  was  in  IJeliring  Sea  until  the  21st 
day  of  Augiist,  was  she,  that  year"      A. — Yes. 

Q. — You  remember  that  now.  having  thus  refreshed  your 
recollection?       .\. — Yes. 

Q.— And  that  is  correct?       A.— It  is. 

Q. — That  was  the  first  yar  the  ''.Kriel''  was  cmt,  was  it  no(? 
.\. — Yes,  sir. 

<2. — .\nd  you  never  had  any  experience  in  IJehring  Sea  be- 
fore that  year?      .\. — No,  sir. 

(J. — That  was  the  (irst  time  you  weie  ever  in  the  sea?  A. 
— Y(»s. 

Q. — .\nd  had  vou  ever  been  sealing  anywhere  else  before 
Ihat  year?       A.— No. 

(J — That  Win  vour  first  experience  in  sealing  anywhere? 
^     .\.— It  was. 

Q. — And  yon  took  S44  skins  with  six  boats?      .\. — Ves. 

Q. — And  besid«'s  tliat  you  took  S41  on  the  coast,  did  you 
not?      A.— 159")  was  th<  'total  T  got  for  the  season.  I  believe. 

(i.— Vou  refcred  lo  a  book  when  vou  gave  that  answer, 
where  did  you  get  those  figures  from"'  .\. — I  liav(  a  kind 
of  passbook  I  'lad  titoard  of  the  vessel  at  oiu'  tinu'  for  that 
year;  aciouiits  1  luiv  kejtt  with  Ihe  hunters 

(). — .MI  your  books  were  not  lost  I'len  for  that  year?       .\. 
'''O   —No;  tliese  ar.-  iillh    liiind  IxxrUs  I  have. 

Q.— Hut  Ihey  ccmtain  an  account  of  your  catch.  T  suppose, 
in  (he  sea.  do  they  not?  .\.— They  are  what  the  hunters 
caught  from  day  to  day. 

ti-— .Vnd  I  supjiose  (he  last  day  (he  liunlers  caught  any 
seals  would  appear  in  Ihat  book?       A.— I  guess  i(  would. 

(i.-  .\nd  when  did  you  last  look  at  (hat  book?  A. — Yes- 
lerdav. 

45  ' 


|!f|f 


»  1  ,   t  ; 


K::-i;il: 


7c6 

(S.  \V.  Uiickiiiuii — (-'io«s.) 

(i. — And  wlicn  you  took  the  stand  here  today,  Mr.  Buck- 
nam,  did  .von  not  know  that  you  wont  >out  of  the  sea  on  tlie 
Ulst  day  of  Au};uHt  because  you  had  refreslied  3-our  recollec- 
tion front  that  hook?  A. — 1  did  not.  It  n«'ver  occurred  to 
nie  to  think  of  it. 

Q. — The  "Ariel"  wiis  in  Behrinjj  Sea  in  1890,  was  she  not? 
A,— Yes. 
IQ       Q. — Had   twelve   canoes   that   year,  had  she  not?      A. — I 
jtuess  she  would  have  that  many.      I  do  not  know. 

Q. — I  do  not  want  any  information  about  it  unless  you  have 
some  niemorj-  as  to  it.      A. — I  have  no  memory. 

Q. — Have  you  any  books  from  which  you  could  refresh 
your  recollection  abou(  the  year  ISOO,  or  were  they  all  lost? 
A. — No,  I  have  a  pass-book  if  you  van  make  anythin;;  froni 
it,  that  the  captain  of  the  schooner  left  with  me. 

Q. — Were  you  in  the  sea  .yourself  in  1800?      A. — No. 

Q. — You  do  not  know  what  time  the  "Ariel"  left  the  sea 
20   in  1890?      A.— No. 

Q. — Will  you  bring  us  the  books  referred  to?      A. — I  will. 

The  Comnussioner9)  took  recess  until  2.30. 


''If'!':! 


40 


30       At  2:.'?0  p.m.  the  Commissioners  resumed  their  seats. 

Cross-examinatiim  of  ('aptain  Kucknam  resumed  by  Mr. 
Warren: 

Q. — Captain  Bucknam,  you  have  ijroduced  here  the  book  fo 
which  you  refer  as  containing;  the  account  with  the  various 
hunters  aboard  the  "Ariel"'  in  the  vear  1889,  have  .vou?  A.— 
Yes. 

Q. — And  it  is  the  book  which  I  have  In  my  hand?  A.— 
Y's. 

Q. — And  by  a  reference  to  that  book  you  will  be  able  to 
state  now  that  the  "Ariel"  left  the  sea  on  the  iilst  of  Augusf 
that  .vear?  A. — I  don't  know  whether  1  can.  I  will  have  to 
look  and  see  (examiniiint.     It  looks  like  .Viifjust  ISth. 

Q. — You  stated  in  the  affidavit  which  .vou  identified  this 
morning  as  being  a  cojiy  of  tiu>  original  allidavit  that 
yon  did  leave  on  the  21st  of  .Vugust.  and  that  affidavit  was 
made  in  the  fall  of  1889?  A.— That  would  be  the  last  sealing 
day. 

ii. — So  vou  state  now 
August?  A. — That  was 
lieve  it  to  be  right. 

Q. — Do  you  wish  to  change  in  any  way  the  number  of  seals 
that  ,vou  took  in  the  .vear  1SS!),  or  b.v  reference  t(»  this  book 
do  you  still  beli<>ve  the  number  fo  be  844?  A.— f  believe  tiie 
number  to  be  right. 

Q. — And  those  seals  were  all  taken  in  llehring  Sea,  were 
the.v?     A. — Yes,  excej>ting  one  or  two  fiMin  Sand  Point  up. 

(}. — rraetically  all  of  them  were  taken  in  (he  Sea?     .\.-- 
60  Yes. 

Q.— The  "Ariel"  was  in  Uelirlng  Sea  In  1890?     A.— Yes. 

(.1. — And  will  you  tell  the  Commissioners  how  many  skin.-* 
the  "Ariel"  took  in  the  year  189'  .  and  what  her  e(|uipment 
was?  A. — Ui'V  catch  in  Behring  Sea  would  be  1,i;{0  to  the 
best  of  my  knowledge. 

Q.— In  "the  year  1890?     .\.— In  the  yejir  1890. 

(i. —  Mow  manv  canoes  or  boats  did  vou  have  in  the  vear 
1890?     A.— I  should  say   U, 


50 


that  .vou   did   leave  <m   the  21st  of 
the  di'claration    I  made,  and  I  bi'- 


/>J/ 


(S.  W.  HiickiiiUi— Cross.) 


Q. — Foiirti'cn  wliicli?     A. — Ciiiun's. 
Q. — And  two   Indians  for  cacli  ciuiot', 


tliat    would  b«'  28, 


lO 


20 


30 


10 


50 


60 


and  what  crew  Ix  sitlc  tlio  Indians  did  you  carry?  A. — That 
voar  slit'  had  captain,  mate,  navijiator,  cook  and  boy  in  addi- 
tion. 

Q. — No  sea  nii-n?     A. — IVrhajJS  two  sea  men. 

Q. — Tliat  makes  seven  in  addition  to  the  28  Indians,  making 
.1.5  men  aboard  the  boat?  A. — That  would  be  somewheres 
near  right. 

Q. — You  were  not  warned  out  in  the  yenr  1S90,  were  you? 
A. — No,  I  was  not  in  a  vessel  in  1S90. 

Q. — The  vessel  was  not  warned  out?  A. — The  vessel  was 
not  warned  out. 

Q. — You  were  a  part  owner  of  (he  "Ariel"  in  the  year  1S8!»'' 
A. — I  was  j)art  owner. 

Q. — Owned  one-third?     A. — One-fourth. 

(2. — Who  owned  the  remainiuf;  shiires  in  the  "Ariel''?  A. 
— John  M  .Taylor,  of  t^t.  Jidm,  New  Brunswick,  and  Boiler 
M.  Lawrence. 

Q. — They  owned  three-fourths  between  them?     A. — 'Yes. 

(i. — I  want  to  ask  you  one  (luestion  alxuil  the  search  for 
that  boat.  Vou  do  not  mean  to  have  ns  uuderstanti,  Taptain. 
that  you  looked  for  the  boat  constantly  from  the  .3flth  July, 
the  dav  on  which  von  claim  to  have  been  warned,  until  the 
21st  of  August?    A.— Not  at  all. 

Q. — The  fact  is  you  looked  for  the  boat  «me  or  two  days 
after  the  day  that  you  were  warned,  and  then  you  went  seal- 
ing?   A. — We  looked  until  we  discovered  where  she  was. 

Q. — You  told  me  this  morning  that  she  was  taken  aboard 
another  vesst'l  which  belonged  to  some  Indians  fr(»m  Neah 
Bay,  the  day  after  she  was  lost?     A. — \es. 

Q. — So  that  w(mld  make  the  time  spent  searching  for  the? 
boat  one  or  two  days?     A. — No,  not  at  all. 

Q. — You  did  not  ascertain  that  within  one  or  two  days? 
A. — We  didn't  ascertain  that  for  jM'rhaps  ten  days  afterward. 
We  never  saw  that  vessel  afterwards;  from  a  ditlerent  source. 

Q. — But  before  you  asceitained  that  fact  yon  had  taken 
seals?     A. — I  expect  we  had. 

Q. — So  that  you  did  not  six-iuT  tlie  entire  ten  days  looking 
for  the  boat,  yon  wen>  sealing  in  (he  interim?  A. — While  we 
were  looking  for  the  boat  we  ran  up  to  every  schooner  we 
saw. 

Q. — Were  you  sealing  during  (hese  ten  days  at  all?  A. — 
I  presume  we  were  sealing  every  good  day,  I  don't  kiutw. 

i}. — And  yon.  were  sealing  every  good  day  U])  to  (he  (ime 
you  left  the  Sea.  were  you  not.  Cajitain?     .\. — Yes. 

Q. — There  was  nothing  taken  off  (he  ".\riel''  l>y  the  olficers 
of  the  cutter  that  warned  you?      \. — No. 
ii. — Nothing  removed  from  your  ship?     A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — You  liad  white  hunteiv  (hat  year?  A. — White  hunt- 
ers. 

Q. — And  they  had  guns?  \. — We  had  one  canoe,  two  In- 
dians. 

Q.— But  they  all  had  guns?     A.— All  had  guns. 

Q. — You  had  six  boats?  A. — We  had  six  boats,  one  canoe, 
and  in  lookiiig  over  the  book  I  ))elieve  we  had  a  stern  boat. 

Q. — So  that  what  yon  said  this  morning  about  having  six 
boats  and  one  being  lost,  is  not  exactly  correct.  Tin?  fact  is 
ytm  had  six  boa;s  and  a  canoe  and  the  canoe  was  lost?  .\. — 
No,  the  boat  was  lost.  I  was  speaking  from  memory  then, 
but  I  see  on  looking  at  the  book  we  must  have  had  a  s(ern 
boat  and  a  canoe. 

Q. — So  that  you  h.id  seven  boats  inclnding  this  stern  boat 
and  canoe?    A. — Yes 


I-'     (;■     fjS 

^^^H 

'J 

■SBBt' 

■      i. 

t 


^ 


'\'\\'\- 


'I  ■[] 


•IHI'T  ■ 


I 

IS' 


lO 


20 


708 

(S.  \\'.  lt\u-kiiaiii — (*ro8s.) 

(^. — And  which  mic  of  the  lM»a(8  wtis  hist,  the  kUtii  Itont  or 
one  of  the  luiiitinjj  hoiitw?     A.— Oiii-  of  th«>  hnntiiiK  houtn. 

(i. — Did  you  ever  insilvc  ii  icjiorl  to  llic  custoin  house  litTc 
in  Vicloiia  tliat  .vou  tool;  1.4(>(t  slvins  in  Itclirinc  Sea  in  tlio 
.veai-  1SS!»?     A.— No. 

il. — Did  llic  "Ariel"  ever  liave  I.-IOO  sliins  wlien  slie  eanie 
into  port  in  1SH<>?     A.— No. 

Q. — S!ie  liad  just  I  lie  St4,  or  a|iproxinuitely  tiial  nnnilier? 
A.— About  lliat. 

{}. — Did  ,vou  nialie  a  report  to  llie  cnsloni  liou.«e  aullioiities 
in  that  year  of  your  catcli?  A. — I  tliinlv  not,  we  were  not 
asked  to,  it  wasn't  <'onipulsory  as  it  is  now. 

(}. — The  tonuajie  of  I  lie  "Ariel"  was  !tO  and  yon  had  six 
boiits?     A. — Yes. 

Q.— And  yon  had  22  men?     A.— In  188J»? 

Q. — Yes.     A. — Twenty-two  men     . 

Q. — Hut  yon  did  not  take  1,400  skins  in  Helirin};  Sea?  A. 
—No. 

Q. — Have  you  any  record  of  yonr  Beliriufi  Sea  catch  in  1889 
such  as  yon  showed  me  for  the  year  1S!I0?A. — No,  I  haven't. 

(}.— Have  yon  the  lof;  of  the  "Ariel"  for  the  year  1SS!>?  A. 
— N"o,  I  have  a  kind  of  rouph  diarv. 

Q.— Where  is  that? 

Mr.  Peters: — I  do  not  want  to  interrupt  my  learned  friend. 
AVe  called  this  witness  simjtly  for  (he  jturiiose  of  iirovinii  the 
catch  generally  for  the  year  18S'f).  AVe  did  not  i>ropose  to  ffo 
into  the  facts  in  the  case  of  the  "Ariel."  I  would  suiJiftest 
30  that  as  we  intend  to  hrinji  this  witness  back  ajiain.  as  to  tlfo 
actual  facts  in  the  case,  it  micht  be  advisable  not  to  {jo  too 
fully  into  tliose  facts  now,  that  is  to  say  whether  they  went 
out  and  were  warned  and  nil  that  business.  We  will  liave 
the  witness  for  the  jinrjiose  of  }r<iinff  into  that  fully. 

A[r.  Warn  11 : — It  was  stated  to  the  court  this  mornintj  that 
this  testimony  would  not  be  jjone  over  again. 

!Mr.  Peters: — Not  tn  tiie  mere  fact  of  the  catch;  however,  I 
do  not  object  at  all. 

rross-examiniition  continued  by  Mr.  Warron: 

t^. — ^You  produce  (his  book  here  and  say  that  it  is  a  niemor- 
andum  lofj  for  the  vear  1SS!»  of  (he  schooner  "Ariel"?  A. — I 
do. 

Q. — Heferrinji  to  this  mimorandum  which  you  have  pro- 
duced, will  you  state  whether  it  is  in  your  haiidwridng?  A. 
-My  iiandwritinjr. 

(J. — Is  i(  all  in  yonr  haudwritin};?  A. — All  in  my  hanJ- 
50   wridny;. 

5Ir.  Warren: — We  unders(and  from  Mr.  liodwell  that  thi^< 
will  hei'eafter  be  put  in  evidence. 

Mr.  Itodwell:— I  will  luoduce  it  at  any  time  it  is  asked  for. 

('ross-exaniiuiMion  continuid  by  Mr.  Warren: 

(i.— Take  Tuesday,  -Inly  ao,  18S!»,  in  tli;i(  memorandiiui  lott- 
Will  ;.ou  s(a(e  whedier  or  not  it  is  a  fact  that  your  boa's 
Q^^  were  <tut  within  three  hours  after  you  were  warned  and  you 
were  ;italin}i  (hat  dav?     A. — Yes. 

li.— That  is  a  fact?     A.— Yes. 

{}. — You  were  warned  at  six  o'clock  in  the  niorniiii;  and  had 
your  boats  out  at  nim'  sealing?     A. — \^'l^. 

(i.— And  you  took  120  skins  that  day?     A.— I  did. 

Q.— Where  did  (he  boat  "Mary  Deli'o"  sail  friiiu?  A.— Han 
Francisco. 

1^. — Who  owned  (he  "Mary  Delio"?     A. — I  don't  know 


40 


?    A.— 1    doiit 


lo 


A.— 

from 
state 


20 


30 


709 

(8.  \V.  Iliii-kujini— <;r»)HH— Ht'-diroit.) 

Q.— Who  was  lu'i-  iiiasit  r?     A.— 1  dou't  kuow. 
U. — Ib  tlio  "Mary  D»'lio"  in  «'xiHleuri'    1 

IvUOW. 

y.— Wht'ii  did  3011  st-f  her  lant?  A.— In  IJeiiriiig  fcit'ii  tliat 
yi'in: 

(i. — Vou  don't  ivnu-nibt'i-  tlie  naiuc  ot  llu'  ttaptaiu?  A. — No. 

(2. — Do  you  lonicnilK-r  lli»!  nauic  of  thf  mate?    A. — No. 

y. — Or  an^bcdy  aboard  liei?      A. — No. 

H. — Tht'  "Alai,)'  iK'lio"  came  out  of  I  lie  I'ass  on  tlie  same 
day  Willi  you,  did  siie  not?    A. — 1  believe  she  did. 

Q. — And  you  eanie  out  of  the  Font-  Mountain  I'ass? 
Yes. 

(I. — Now,  in  addition  to  iefr«'sliing  your  leeolleetion 
the  attldavit  by  refeiiinj"  to  this  log,  are  you  able  to 
what  dale  you  did  eome  out  of  the  I'ass  as  shown  by  that  log? 
A. — (Itefeiring  to  log.i  1  don't  remember  the  date,  but  that 
slalement  is  corrcet,  the  2lNt  of  August. 

ii. — The  schooner  "JA)ttit!  was  the  sciioonir  that  picked  up 
your  boat,  was  it  not?     A. — Yes,  Indian  schooner  "Loltie." 

(i. — What  other  boats  did  you  see  coming  out  of  Behring 
Sea  about  the  time  that  you  came  out,  besides  the  "Mary 
Delio''?    A. — I  don't  remember  of  seeing  any. 

Q. — Did  you  see  the  schooner  "Favorite"  that  year?  A. — 
1  don't  remember  of  seeing  her. 

(/. — The  "Mary  Delio  was  not  warned,  was  she?  A, — I 
don't  remember  wluiner  she  was  or  not. 

ii. — You  did  not  hear  anylhing  aboul  her  being  warned? 
A. — We  were  in  company  with  her  and  he  told  us  of  other 
vessels  being  warned. 

i-i- — 1I«'  did  not  tell  you  that  he  was  warned?  A. — I  forget 
whether  he  did  or  not. 

(i. — Do  you  know  that  the  "Mary  Delio''  was  leaving  the 
Sea  that  year  because  she  was  through  hunting?  A. — I 
i«new  she  was  leaving  the  Sea  because  she  dared  not  go  on  tlie 
sealing  ground  lor  f'i.v  of  seizure. 

Q. — How  do  UMi  kii  -w  that?  A. — I'.ecause  I  was  abeard  of 
her  and  they  weic  aboard  of  us. 

Q. — Why  is  it,  I  hen,  thai  you  cannot  remember  whether  she 
was  warned  or  not?  A.— I  remember  by  the  position  he  was 
keeping,  the  same  as  1  was. 

Q. — Y<tu  guessed  that  he  was  afraid  of  going  onto  the  seal- 
ing ground?  A. — I  knew  tiial,  because  I  was  in  the  same 
])osition. 

Q. — Did  he  t.-il  you  he  w.is?      A. — Yi'S. 

(i. — Did  he  le'l  you  he  had  Iteen  w.irned?  A. — I  don't  know 
whether  he  did  or  not. 

Q. — You   cannot    remember  thai?       A. — No,   I   believe   he 
-Q  had  spoken  other  vessels  tliat  had  been  warned  and  he  was 
afraid  of  being  seized. 

Sir.  Peters: — 1  am  going  to  re-examine  lliis  witness  as  to 
the  special  case  of  tlu-  ".Vriel."  but  I  wish  to  reexamine  him 
shortly  as  to  some  facts  bi ought  out  about  the  year  ISnO.  I 
rtserve  my  right  to  cill  this  witness  anew  in  the  case  of  the 
"Ariel"  as  to  the  special  facts  relating  to  that  case. 

Re-direct  exan)ination  by  Mr.  Peters: 

^)0       Q. — You  gave  Ihe  c.itch,  I  tliink.  that  vou  made  in  the  year 
ISflO? 

The  Commisisoner  on  the  part  of  Iler  Majesty:— He  was 
not  aboard  of  her,  he  got  his  iufornmtion  as  to  1890  frcn 
documents. 

Q. — But  vou  gave  the  statement  as  to  the  catch  in  1890? 
A.— Yes. 


40 


■ 


'■■'.'V  !?'•*' 


'lii'ti' 


ll 


710 

(S.  W.   Buckiiinn— HcdiiM'ct.       L.  OIhoii— Diroct.) 

Q. — Do  vdii  Uiunv  wlicn  (In-  Hliip  enton-d  the  Sea  iu  1H!)0? 
A.— No. 

ii. — \or  when  slw  ciiiik'  out?      A. — No. 

Q. — Do  .von  know  uh  1o  lier  outfit  in  that  yenr?  A. — Yob, 
I  niivc  lior  lior  outfit. 


30 


10 

Louis  Olson  wiit.  ciillod  a»  a  witnohs  in  robuttiil  on  tlio  pnrt 
of  (irotit  Itritain  and  duly  sworn. 

Direct  oxaniination  by  Sir  C.  II.  Tuppcr: 

Sir  (J.  il.  Tujtper; — I  take  this  witness  only  on  the  cat  eh 
of  1!S8!). 

Q.— What  vessel  were  you  in  in  1881)?      A.— The  "W.  P. 
20  Sayward." 

Q. — How  many  boats?      A. — V.i  canoes  and  one  boat. 
ii. — How  nuiny  schooners?     A. — -'«  Indians,  111  canoes,  twa 
Indians  in  a  canoe. 
Q. — What  was  your  position?      A. — Master. 
y. — Who  was  the  mate?    A. — Man  by  the  nanu;  of  Holmes. 

Q. — Did  you  hunt?  A. — No,  sir,  the  mate  went  out  in  the 
stern  boat. 

Q. — What  time  did  you  enter  the  Sea?  A. — Entered  the 
Sea  about  the  7th  of  July. 

Q.— What  time  did  yon  come  out?  A.— On  the  18th  of 
August  I  started  from  the  sealing;  f;rounds. 

(J.— Why  did  you  leave  then?  A.— Well,  I  spoke  the 
"Lily  L"  that  cveninfj  after  dusk  and  the  (raptain  and  his 
brother,  he  was  out  in  his  boat,  and  he  boarded  me  and  re- 
jiorted  the  "Minnie"  was  seized.  Captain  tiacobson;  also  that 
they  had  taken  nuns  away  from  some  vessels. 

(i.— And  you  left  that  night?  A.— I  started  for  the  Pass 
that  nit^ht. 

(i. — Where  were  you  then?  A. — I  was  in  about  IG!)  west 
Icm^itude  and  about  .'>4.r)(i  noith  latitude,  about  that  position 
as  near  as  I  can  recollect. 

Q. — Did  you  say  when  you  went  in  the  Sea?  A. — On  the 
7th  of  July,  I  think. 

Q. — About  what  was  your  catch?  A. — Well,  for  the  whole 
season  mv  catcii  was  281(>  skins,  that  is  coast  and  BeliriuK 
Sea. 

(i.— About  what  was  tlie  Rehrinj;  Sea  catch?  A.— 1812 
was  my  Hehriufj;  Sea  catch. 

Q. — What  sort  of  weather  had  you  when  you  left?  A.— 
On  the  ISth  of  Aufjust  1  };ot  84  skins,  which  was  as  near  as 
I  can  remember. 

Q.— <lood  sealiu!,'  weather?     A.— (!ood  sealinp;  weather. 

Q._I)„  you  remember  the  catch  in  1888?  A.— *88  I  wasn't 
there;  1  was  tliere  in  "iMt. 

Q.—What  ship  was  you  on  in  18!)(>?  A  —On  the  schooner 
"Juanita." 

Q. — Can  you  jjive  us  the  catch  of  the  vessel  in  181)0?     A.— 
Yes.  sir.  I  think  I  can:  I  rememl'cr  it  well,  because  1  was  on 
fjo   the  lav  that  year  and  that  is  the  way  it  is  impressed  \\\mi 
my  mind. 

Q.— What  was  it?     A.— 1:!81  including  the  whole  catcli. 

Q._Wl,nt  WIS  it  iu  the  Sea?     A— 1141. 

Q.—How  nuuiy  boats  had  you  or  canoes?  A  —Nine  canoes. 

Q._ll(,w  many  hunters?       A.— Eifthteeu. 

Q_-\Vhere  w«>re  v«u  sealing:?     A.— In  Hehriufj  Sea. 

Q._What  i»aH?  A.— Well,  1  was  huntinfr  around  in  1*0 
west  and  ."(."1  north. 


40 


50 


3° 


4° 


r.o 


(L.  ONt'ii— I >ii«Mt— < "roHH.) 

Q.— Wlicn  did  you  go  into  llie  Siji?  A.— M.v  lliHt  milinK 
du.v  WUH  the  12tli  of  Jul.v;  I  doiit  iviiU'iiibtT  tlu'  diiy  that  I 
futert'd  llu'  I'uhh;  f  ciin'l  rfinciuber. 

Q.— When  did  .voii  li-avc  tiif  Ht-a?  A.— The  wioud  of  Sep- 
1  ember. 

Q- — Whaf  was  your  poKition  on  (he  8lii|»?    A. — Master. 

Q.— Wliat  Noit   of   wealiier  had  you   in   iHiK)?     A.— Well, 
,o  .Fuly  was  very  fair;  well,  in  tlu'  latter  end  of  it.     In  the  latter 
«nd  of  AugUHl,  in  faet  the  whole  of  Anttust  was  pretty  fair, 
but  the  seals  were  kind  of  scarce  at  the  time. 

Q. — Vou  cannot  «ive  us  the  lowering  days?  A. — I  can't 
ftive  the  daily  catch;  no,  sir. 

CrusH-exaniination  by  Mr.  Lansing  : 

(i.— Did  you  keep  any  log  books?  A.— Kept  them  at  the 
time. 

Q. — llavt*  you  got  Ihem  now?    A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Do  you  know  where  they  are?    A. — 1  don't  know. 
20       (i.— When  did  y<Mi   hc"  Iheiii    last?     A.— When  I   lefl    the 
ship.     I  generally  leave  my  log  books  on  board, 

Q. — Did  you  keep  a  sealing  book?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q-— Df  your  (»wu?  A.— Well,  I  generally  left  it  with  the 
owners  when  I  cann'  home. 

Q. — Have  you  got  one  for  these  years?  A. — No,  sir,  I 
haven't. 

(2. — Who  were  the  owners.'  A. — Mr.  Lundlicrg  was  the 
owner  of  tlu'  "W.  1*.  Sayward"  in  IHMit,  and  Mr.  Morris  Moss 
bought  the  Bkins  and  paid  th<'  crow. 

(/. — And  of  the  "Juanita"?  A. — Hall  &  tJoepel  was  the 
owner. 

y. — And  ytni  gave  them  the  logs?  A. — No,  sir,  I  left  them 
on  board  the  vessel. 

Q. — You  never  kept  a  sealing  log  for  your  own  informa- 
tion from  year  to  year?  A. — No;  my  private  book  was  gen 
erally  left  to  p.iy  off  tlu;  crew  by. 

il. — Who  did  you  say  owned  tlie  "Wayward'"  in  1881)?  A. — 
Well,  a  party  by  the  name  of  Lundberg,  Jieek  &  Company. 
.Mr.  l^unUberg  is  in  court  at  the  present  time. 

Q. — And  Mr.  Morris  Moss  paid  off  the  crew?  A. — lie 
boiight  the  skins  which  1  brought  from  IJehring  Wea  and 
he  was  a  kind  of  receiver  for  the  vessel  on  my  return,  and 
he  paid  off  the  Indian  hunters,  and  the  book  was  left  with 
him. 

Q. — Was  he  interested  in  the  voyage?  A. — Not  as  I 
know  of,  sir.  Only  that  he  purchased  the  skins  on  my  re- 
turn. 

ii. — Do  you  know  for  whom  Mr.  Moss  was  agent?  A. — 1  do 
not. 

il. — He  was  a  purchaser  of  seal  skins  and  other  skins  here 
in  this  port?  A. — He  was  purchaser  in  18SM  and  188!t  of  my 
seal  skins  which  I  brought  in. 

Q. — Was  that  his  busiiu'ss,  the  purchasing  of  seal  skins 
ami  other  furs?      .\. — Yes,  sir. 

ti. — Did  vou,  in  I8t^i),  trans-ship  voui'  skins  before  entering 
the  Sea?      A.— I  did. 

Q. — Where?  A. — Aboui  7(>  miles  outside  of  Sand  Toint — 
Shumigan  Islands. 

Q. — To  what  boat  did  you  transfer  them?  .\. — The  schoon- 
er "Wanderer." 

Q.— In  18!)()  (lid  you  transfer  them?  A.— I  transferred 
them  in  N«»rtheast  harbor  to  the  "Mischief." 

Q. — Did  you  do  any  sealing  after  transferring  your  skins 
before  entering  the  Sea?  A. — No,  sir,  we  had  a  gale  of  wind 
after  leaving  there  which  took  us  into  Hehring  Sea. 

Q. — In  lS8!t,  did  you  do  any  sealing  before  you  enter«'d  the 
Sea?      A. — Not  after  leaving  Sand  Point,  no,  sir. 


^ 


WTT     TT1 


mm''' 


111,  , 

Hi  ifi 


m 


'''h'' 


lO 


20 


-12 

( ]..  ( Hhcii — < 'roMM — l{f  (liiccl.) 

(j. — ]i\i\  voii  iiiiik(>  II  ri>pnrt  iiii  riMiirniii^  li*-ri>  fo  (In-  Ciih- 
toiii  Imiim'  of  tlu."  HkiiiH?  A. — Not  tliiit  I  rciiit'nilM'r,  it  wiimu'I 
iiiNtoniiir.v  for  iih  to  du  ho  tli<>ii. 

Q._I)i,l  von  do  it?  A.— No,  Hir.  I  don't  think  1  did,  I  nni 
not  Hiiri*. 

Q. — Now.  Ciiptiiin,  do  von  know  tliat  tlic  riitcli  in  Mi'lirinj; 
Hvtt  wiiH  l,<i4:{  in  1HS!>?     A.— To  ni.v  niciiioi'.v  i(  was  l.Slli. 

i^ — How  do  you  refresh  your  ineniorv?     A. — Ity  the  niiiii 
thnt  kejtt  tally  on  ni\  return. 
ii. — Wlio  was  tliat?     A.— .Mr.  l.oj;an. 

Q.— What  \h  his  tlrsi  name?  A. — I  don't  know  Iiis  lirsl 
name. 

(i.— IHd  lie  work  for  Mr.  Moss'/  .\.— He  was  hired  at  tlial 
speeiiil  time  for  to  take  the  tally  of  the  skins. 

Q. — Has  he  >;ot  that  tally  now?  .\. — I  think  he  must  have. 
I  am  not  sure  whether  he  has  at  ])resent. 

(2. — l»id  Mr.  I^oijan  tell  y<ni  that  that  was  the  latch  of  the 
"W.  i'.  Say  ward"  in  lSSt>  within  the  last  few  days?  A  - 
Well.  I  s|ioke  to  him  coiK-ernin);  it.  Iiut  at  that  liiiie  he  didn't 
hav(>  his  Itook.  He  has  hunted  it  np  since  and  1  wiis  eonvers 
in^  with  him  ab(Mit  it.  I  think  I  was  a  few  skins  out  in  the 
•  onnt  III  the  time  and  he  eorrected  it.  Of  course  he  hail  il 
there  from  the  time  he  took  the  tallv  (»f  the  skins  and  theiv 
was  1.812. 

Q. — If  yiui  had  not  refreshed  your  recollection  in  that  way. 
would  you  have  been  able  to  say  how  liirne  the  catch  was  of 
the  "W.  1'.  Saywiird"  in    ISMIt?     .\.— For  the  full  season.   I 
30   could,  bnt  not  particularly  for  Kelirinf;  Sea  alone. 

Q. — Now.  if  vou  made  a  return  to  tlie  custom  house  of  the 
"W.  P.  Snywnrd"  in  l.SS{>,  of  l.«!4.'{  skins  for  I'dirinp  Sea. 
would  that  be  correct?     A.— Not  that  I  can  nnuii  lier. 

il — Would  it  be  correct  if  y(tu  did  m.'ike  sn   '•  atement? 

A. — I  d«m"t  think  so,  not  according  to  the  tally. 

Q. — The  ".luanita,'  how  did  you  refresh  youi'  ec<»lh'ction 
as  to  lier  in  18!>0?  A. — I  had  spoken  it  over  so  often  wit'ii  my 
friends,  tluit  is  tlu'  icascm  my  mind  is  impressed  with  it  with 
my  full  catch  of  the  year. 

ii. — You  can  remember  the  full  catch  .very  well''  A. — Yes, 
Kir. 

Q. — How  do  you  fix  the  Hehrinir  Sea  catch?  A. — Because 
I  remember  each  time  I  landed  my  okius. 

Q. — Have  you  talked  with  anybody  aliout  that  to  refresh 
your  recollecti(m?  .\. — Yes.  in  the  first  of  the  ('ommi.4sion 
sittiufr  here  I  went  to  Mr.  Hull  and  he  produced  the  book  for 
thnt  year. 

H- — ('<»uld  you  testify  to  the  numl)er  wiihout  refresliiiifr 
your  recollection  from  Mr.  Hall's  book?  .\. — I  would  have  a 
memory  of  the  two  coast  catches. 

(i- — Wouldn't  you  1  c  a  memory  of  the  Itehrinif  Sea 
catch?  .\.— That  would  come  in  the  full  catch  of  the  vessel: 
if  I  knew  the  coast  catch  I  would  know  the  Behrinp;  Sea  catch 
by  the  full  amount. 

Q. — What  wa.4  the  coast  catch  of  the  ''.luanita?"  .\.— Tt  is 
97  for  the  spiintr.  'XM  for  tli;'  coast. 

Q. — Now.  if  you  made  a  return  in  l,<Jno  at  the  custom  house 
that  you  took  770  skins  in  I^'hring  Sea.  was  that  correct  or 
incorrect"  A — It  is  incorrect,  because  I  don't  think  I  made 
any  report  in  the  custom  house;  777  I  think  is  mv  catch  in 
the  Sea. 

Re-direct  examination  by  Sir  O.  H.  Tapper: 

SirC.  H,  Tupjier:— l^'i'liapH  it  would  not  Im'  irregular  to  ask 

y  lea rnnl  friends  if  they  seriously  (piestion  the  catch  in  th" 

A\'e   can    ))roduce    Mr.  I.ogan,  but  it  seems  un- 


40 


Sc- 


60 


m 
"Sayward 


-13 
iL.     Olscii— Iti'iliriTi   -KccriiHH— llcdiiTct. 


lo 


Itui'kiitilii — ]{«•■ 


iifccHHiiry  iiiilfHH  (licy  linvc  otiicr  iiiMtrii«-tioiiH  iim  to  tin-  niiin 
Iht— fill-   ISMIt  ciilcli.     It    Ih  niciciv   (lie   Iroiihlc  of  liHii);iii^' 
liiiii  Imt<'. 

Mr.  IMckinsoii: — Tlicrc  Ih  ti  diH(i-(>|iiini-,v  in  llic  nitcli. 

I5v  Sir  r.  II.  TiipiM-r: 

ii. — M<'for»'  you  Hpolo'  lo  Mr.  Lo<;iim.  yon  hiiv  there  wiim  a 
diK(iiHM.)ii  iM'twccn  yon  tiH  to  tlie  cxart  iinionnt.  How  nincli 
<ii<l  you  (litlVr?     .\.— Al (   100  ttkim. 

<i. — Tlicri'  wiiH  II  iliHpuK'  of  loo  iM'lwt'fti  you?  A. — (hie 
thoiiHiinii  NfM'ti  liuiiiIrtMl  iiiiil  soiiiclliiii);.  I  llion^lit  I  iiiiil,  and 
lie  said  I. MOO  according;  to  IiIh  liooiis. 

HccroMs-cxaniinalioii  hy  Mr,  l.ansin}j: 

Q.— Now.  wi'.ncHS,  I  lliinli  yon  miid  yon  loft  tlic  Sea  on  tiie 
30  L'nd  of  Sepleinlier.  lS!to?     A.— YeH.  sir,  I  did. 

Q. — ll<»w  nniiiy  days  hefore  that  was  your  iiiMt  iowerin;; 
day?     .\. —  I  lowered  «>n  tlie  seeond  of  Septeiiilier. 

il — And  eanie  out  on  llie  L'nd?  A.— I  started  for  the  I'ass; 
I  didn't  say  what  day  I  eiiine  through  the  I'ass.  I  came  out 
of  the  rass  in  connianv  with  the  "Heatriee." 

Direct  examination  resumed  by  Sir  C.  H.  Tupper: 

ii- — There  seems  to  be  some  misunderstandin);  about  thia 
".Inanita"  count.     Wliat  is  it  you  say  wuh  the  total  catch?  A. 
30   —1.181. 

Q.— What  is  the  Hehriny  Sea  catch  out  of  that?  A.— I 
think  it  was  777. 


Samuel  W.  Huckuani,  recalled  for  further  erosH-examina* 
40   lion: 

]{y  Mr.  Warren: 

ii. — 1  uejjiected  to  ask  you  one  tiuestion.  Captain,  when 
you  WJ'ie  on  the  stand.  What  lime  did  you  leave  the  itort  of 
Victorui  in  ISSlt?  A. — I  can't  say  without  referring  to  the 
diary,  (referriii},'  to  lo;;l  February  11th. 

ii. — IMd  you  come  into  tiie  jiort  of  N'icroria  attain  before 
the  "Ariel"  returned  from  Hehring  Sea?  A. — Not  to  Vic- 
50  toria. 

(i. — So  wIk'U  you  oultitted  the  ".\riel"  that  year  for  her 
season's  voyaj.re  you  oiittitted  for  the  entire  lime  before  you 
left  in  February?     A. —  I  oiillitted  for  the  sj>rin>{  catch. 

(2. — Where  did  you  outlit  for  the  ISehrin^  Sea  trip?  A. — 
I  think  in  ('layo(|uoi. 

t^. — Wiiere  did  you  trans-ship  youi"  skins?  A. — I  believe 
some  from  ('layo(iuot  and  some  from  Sand  Point,  or  in  the 
neighborhood  of  Sand  Point. 

(i. — Mow  many  skins  did  you  send  back  from  Sand  Point? 
C>0  A. — Two  hundred  and  eij{hty  something.  This  book  will 
sho\,  by  jtoin^  tliroufih  it. 

ti. — S'ou  can  find  one  entry  to  show  that?  A. — I  don't 
know  the  date.     (Kxamininff)  The  r)tli  or  Gth  of  July. 

(i. — Did  you  outfit  entirely  anew  at  t''layo(iuot,  or  whatever 
l>lace  it  was  on  the  west  coast  of  Vancouver  Island,  before 
you  entered  in  Uehiinf;-  Sea.  or  wi're  you  paitially  eipiipped 
for  the  triji  to  IJehriufj  Sea  when  you  left  liere  in  Febiuary? 
A. — Partially  equipped. 


] 


IP 


ii;'i;  ?! 


Mi 


7^4 
(S.  W.  Rucknam — f'loss.     fS.  I>.  TiOgnn — Direct — Pross.) 

Q. — And  voii  Iddk  s\  vcrv  lilllc,  as  a  iiuitlfi-  <il'  fact,  ai 
Clii.voqiiot  Sound?  A. — Took  on  what  we  considtTcd  ncccs 
sar.v  for  tlio  balancf  of  tlic  voyage. 

(j.— You  took  on  very  littl«''?  A.— Took  on  #(>()<»  or  f7(M» 
worth. 

Q- — ItiOO  or  ^700  worth  of  proviwiouH?     A. — Yos. 

Q. — Hcforc  you  h'ft  for  Hchriufj;  S«>a  in  th«>  y«'ar  tM8!)  had 

Q  you  conversed  with  captains  and  otlier  ]k'o]>1(!  rejjardinn  seal- 

ini;  matters  here,  as  to  tlie  length  of  your  voyafre,  and  the 

probabh'  time  of  your  h-aving  Helirinpj  S«'a?     A. — Yes,  I  had. 


JJiHli 


h 


Georjje  D.  Loyan  was  called  as  a  witness  on  the  pan  of 
20  (Jreat  Hritain  and  was  duly  sworn. 

Direct  examination  in  chief  by  Sir  C  II.  Tapper: 

Q. — -Mr.  Loftan,  what  is  your  occupation?  A. — I  kei'p  a 
tradin{j;  store. 

Q. — Vou  are  a  trader?      A. — Yes. 

g.— Do  vou  lemeniber  the  "W.  V.  Savward"  in  188!>?  A. 
— Y«'S. 

Q.— Did  you  keep  a  tally  of  her  catch  in  September,  1889? 

30   -^- — I  <li<l- 

Q. — Where  did  the  "\V.  V.  Sayward"  bring  the  seal  skins 
to  in  September,  18S!»?  A. — She  landed  them  at  Jennings 
wharf. 

Q.— In  Victoria?      A.— Yes. 

(i. — For  whom  did  you  keep  the  tally?  A. — The  chief  of- 
ficer; the  mate  asked  nu'  to  keep  the  tally  for  him. 

(i. — As  the  skins  came  otf  the  ship?  A. — As  the  skins 
came  out  of  the  ship. 

Q. — Were  they  jiut  into  sacks?      A. — Yes. 
40        (-i- — Did  y<»u  see  tluin  put  into  sacks?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — How  many  in  ji  sack?      A. — Ten. 

Q. — You  saw  ten  p'lt  in  ea<  h  sack  and  the  sacks  counted? 
A.— Yes. 

Q. — Did  you  ki-ep  a  record  of  each  sack?      A. — Yes. 

(i. — Have  you  it   ,vith  you?       .\. — Yes. 

Q. — What  did  vou  make  the  total  n\iniber  of  skins?  A. — 
1,812. 

Q. — Your  books  show  that?      .\. — Yes. 

Q. — To  whom  were  these  sacks  d<'livered?      A. — To  Mor- 
5°    ris  Moss. 

Q.— In  Victoria?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — He  is  nor  here  now?      .\. — \o. 

Q.— He  is  dead?      A.— Yis. 

f'roRH-examination  by  Mi-.  Lansing: 

Q.— Were  the  skins  that  were  taken  out  of  the  "W.  P.  Say- 
ward"  in  bunches?  A.— No.  they  were  c<Minted  out  on  the 
deck  separatelv  and  the  sack. 
^°  Q. — Were  tlh'y  kenched  in  the  bins?  .\ — I  cannot  sny. 
I  did  not  see  them  until  they  came  on  deck.  Each  skin  was 
thrown  ui»  separately  and  then  there  was  a  man  on  deck 
rolled  them  u])  a  little  and  put  them  into  a  sack  and  I  counted 
them  going  into  the  sack. 

Q. — You  rolled  up  two  skins  togethoi'?  A. — No,  single 
skins. 

Q. — Do  you  know,  of  your  personal  knowledge,  whether 
these  skins  caiiie  fiom  lleliring  Sea  ov  not?      .\. — I  do  not. 


i« 


10 


715 

ff}.  D,  TiOfjiin— OrosN—UfMlircct.       W.  IJulxcr- 


-I)iiv.-t.) 

From 


il. — How  long  liiiVf  yon  bt't'ii  trading  Mr.  Logan? 
IMTO  to  18,S!),  or  1888,  I  think  it  was  in  1888. 

(■l- — Where  were  jou  trading  in  1880?      A. — On  the  West 
Ooast  of  Vancouver  Island. 

Q.— What  part?      A.— liarclay  Sound. 

Q. — Did  you  travel  up  and  down  the  coast  at  all?     A. — No, 
I  h.id  a  store  thtre. 

Q. — You  had  {   store  in  Barclay  Sound?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Have  you  made  a  courr  for  any  other  vessels  besides 
the  "Say ward?"      A.  -No,  I  have  not 

Q. — That  is  the  only  one  you  ever  counted?      A. — The  only 
one  I  ever  counled  Wi's  the  '  Savward." 


Re-direct  examination  by  Sir  C.  H.  Tupper: 

Q.— Who  was  the  master  of  the  "W.  P.  Sayward?"  A  — 
1  believe  ('apt.  Wilson  was. 

Q. — Did  he  assist  in  that  counting?  Yes,  he  was  there 
holding  the  tally  against  me. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  may  state  to  the  ComniissionerH  that  at  the 
l)resent  time,  we  are  not  in  a  positioa  to  call  any  more  wit- 
nesses this  afternoon.  We  think  (here  would  be  a  saving  of 
tinu»  if  the  Commissioners  now  adjourned  until  morning. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Do  I 
understand  you  propose  to  take  up  the  "Thornton"  in  the 
morning? 

Mr.  Peters: — Unless  there  is  any  evidence  to  be  given  in 
rebuttal  by  my  learned  r'ri  "nd  in  Ihe  "Carolena"  case. 

Mr.  Dickinson. — I  do  not  b«'liev(-  it  would  be  jwssible.  We 
will  endeavour  to  produce  the  witnesses  when  we  can  get 
them. 

Mr.  Peters: — It  would  b"  desirable  to  do  that  in  the  morn- 
ing if  my  learned  friend  can  Hnd  it  possible. 

The  Oomniis.«ioners  rose  at   four  o'clock. 


'  if 


40 


;'i 


The  following  testimony  of  Wentworth  K.  Maker,  taken  as 
hereinafter  stated,  is  here  ])rinted  for  convenience. 

December  17,  ISJMi.  Wentwoilh  K.  Haker  was  called  as  a 
witness  on  the  jiart  of  (Ji-eat  Uritain  and  duly  sworn. 

Tile  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — In 
what  case  will  this  witness  give  his  tetimony,  Mr.  Peters? 

Mr.  Peters: — This  witness  will  first  give  evidence  which 
will  be  ai)i»licable  to  the  whole  of  llw  cases  of  ISSi)  on  the 
•luestion  of  catch,  kee|>ing  it  distinctly  separate  as  I  go  along. 
We  shall  have  io  examine  him  shortly  on  a  special  fact  with 
regard  to  the  cjjse  of  the  "Pathtlnder"  in  IStHt.  If  my  learn- 
ed friend  wishes  to  reseive  his  cross-examination  <»n  that 
V<»int  he  may. 

Mr.  Di'kinson: — Then  the  first  e.icamlnatioii  you  have  ap- 
plies to  all  the  cases  in  188))? 

Mr.  Peters: — It  applies  to  all  the  cases  in  18S'),  and.  1  think, 
with  regard  to  ceritiin  (piestions  of  weather  in  the  Hehring 
Sea  in  tile  moiidis  of  .lulv  and  .\iigusl  it  will  be  ajiplicable 
to  all  the  cases. 


Sii  i . 


^'■^■\ 


20 


30 


7>6 

(W.  E.  Hakfi— Direct.) 

Mr.  Difkinson: — Do  you  nw.m  to  use  it  in  tlio  ease  of  tlio 
"Caiolenu?" 

Mr.  Peters: — !  do  not  propose  to  refer  so  much  to  the  case 
of  the  "Carolen.i."  because,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  this  witness 
did  not  tish  in  llie  Beliring  Sea  at  that  time. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — And 
10  .vou  do  not  use  it  in  llie  case  of  the  "Carolena? 

Mr.  Peters: — 1  do  not  tliiulc  it  has  mucli  applicability  to 
that  case. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — Do 
yon  use  it  in  that  case  at  all  or  not? 

Mr.  Peters: — I  do  not  think  it  applies. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  TTnited  States: — The 
st«'nojirapher  would  note  that  we  are  takinjj  the  evidence 
for  the  "Pathfiiider"  separately. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  will  take  it  distinctly  separate,  so  that  it 
can  be  laid  aside. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — And 
this  witness,  it  will  be  understood,  is  by  agreement  taken 
out  of  order.  One  part  of  the  evidence  is  to  be  used  in  the 
case  of  the  "Pathtinder,"  1890,  Claim  21,  and  the  other  in  the 
cases  of  188J». 

Mr.  Peters: — Yes. 

Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q. — Where  do  you  live,  Captain  Baker?  A. — In  Victoria, 
sir. 

(i. — llow  lon^;  hav'j  you  lived  in  V'lctoria?  A. — About  I) 
years. 

Q. — Where  did  you  originally  come  from?  A. — Nova  So- 
tia. 

Q. — When  did  you  come  from  Nova  Scotia?  In  what 
year?      A. — I  came  direct  here  from  Nova  Scotia  in  l'<87. 

(J. — In  what  xliip  did  you  come?      A. — In  the  "Viva." 

(2. — Were  you  master  of  her?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  brought  her  around  from  Nova  Scotia  lo  \'ictoria? 
A. — Yes,  sir;  from  Halifax  lo  N'ictoria. 

Q. — I  believe  for  Mr.  Munsie?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — He  bought  the  "Viva?'  A. — Yes,  sir;  he  bought  (he 
"Viva." 

t^. — Will  you  be  kind  enough  to  t(>ll  me  how  many  men 
you  hud  on  l)oird  the  'Viva"  luinging  her  :iround  llu^  Horn? 
A. — Seven  all  told — the  captain,  two  mates,  three  seamen, 
and  the  cook. 

Q. — Generaly  speaking,  will  you  tell  me  what  the  captain's 
wages  were  coming  around?      A. — ^.")0  i»er  month. 

Q.— And  the  wages  of  the  mates?  A.— I  think  it  was  faO 
for  the  first  mate  and  ^20  for  the  second,  and  the  seamen  got 
either  S('\!i  or  flH  per  montli,  I  forget  which. 

Q. — These  w»'re  the  salaries  per  montli?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — Ex- 
cuse me;  I  want  to  be  able  to  apply  this  testimony  that  is 
now  being  taken  in  regard  to  each  case.      What  is  it  for? 

Mr.  I'eters: — We  are  coming  to  the  question  of  the  value 
of  the  vessels  that  were  brought  around  from  Nova  Scotia. 
I  am  not  going  into  any  further  particulars  except  the  wages 
of  the  men. 


40 


50 


Co 


10 


20 


717 

(\V.  E.  IJiikfi'— Din-tt.) 

The  CoinuiissioiK'r  on  the  part  of  the  United  States:— To 
what  does  it  aj)))!^? 

Mr.  Peters: — It  applies  to  all  the  vessels  that  cauie  around 
from  the  east  coast,  as  to  their  value. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — As  bearing  on  their  value  for  188U? 

Mr.  IV'ters: — As  bearing  on  their  value  when  seized.  It 
bears  on  the  value  of  the  vessels  in  IS8!)  and  1887.  For  1887 
the  value  of  the  vessels  is  a  very  pertinent  (juestion,  because 
they  were  seized  theii.  I  stated  that  on  certain  points  this 
witness'  evidence  would  be  ai)plicable  to  all  cases. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — You  were 
speaking  of  w  iges.  Now  there  would  be  no  presumption 
that  wages  of  1887  would  be  the  same  as  1889. 

Mr.  Peters: — These  men  did  come  in  1887. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — I 
asked  you  if  it  was  applicable  to  the  case  of  the  "Carolena," 
and  you  said  no. 

Air.  Peters: — I  am  not  going  to  apply  it  to  the  case  of  the 
"Carolena" — the  "Carolena"  did  not  come  around  the  Horn. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Hi'r  Majesty: — It  refers 
U>  the  vessels  that  came  from  the  otlier  side  of  the  continent. 

""he  Commis'ioner  on  the  part  of  the  T'nited  States: — I 
want  to  know  what  position  we  are  in.  What  testimony 
will  this  be  read  into? 


Mr.  Peters: 
to  this  point. 


-It  will  be  read  into  the  cases  for  1S87  down 


40 


io 


Direct  examination  continued  by  Mr.  I'eters: 

(J. — You  gave  me  the  wages  of  (he  seamen  at  lfl5  or  ^10 
jM'r  month;  did  you  give  me  the  wages  of  tlie  cook?  A. — I 
think  it  was  |!2(>  per  month,  but  will  not  l»e  positive. 

Q. — And  it  took  you  how  many  days  to  come  around  the 
Horn?      A.— Km. 

(i. — I'ntil  you  came  ar'und  here  in  1887  did  you  know  any- 
thing about  sealing?       \. — Xolhing  wiiatever. 

Q. — Had  you  even  s«h>u  your  firsi  seal?  A. — Not  to  my 
knowledge. 

(i. — Did  you  go  scaling  in  1S87?      A. — No,  sir. 

(i.— Did  you  go  scaling  in  1S8S?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— As  captain  of  what  vessel?      A. — The  "Viva." 

Q. — In  188!)  did  you  go  sealing?       A.— Yes  .sir. 

Q.— As  captain  of  what  vessel?      A.— The  "Viva." 

Q— In   18!MI  did  you  go  sealing?       A.— Yes,  sir. 

<i.— As  captain  of  wlial?      A.— Tlie  "Viva." 

Q. — In  18fl1  did  you  go  sealing?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

'.). — .\s  cajtiain  of  what  vessel? 
va." 

(i.— In  18!»2  did  you  go  sealing? 

Q. — .\s  captain  of  what  vessel? 
TM])iK'r. 


A.— Captain  of  the  "Vi 

.\. — Y<'s.  sir. 
A.— Captain  of  the  C.  H. 


do 


Mr.  Dickinson:— We  will  have  to  get   tlie  tonnage  of  that 
vessel. 

Mr.  Peters:— In  18!i:{  did  you  go  sealing?       .\.— Yes,  sir. 
ii. — In   what   vessel?       .V. — The  "Oscar  and   Maltie." 


<i. — In  18!M  did  you  go  sealing": 
(i.— In  what  vessel?  A.— Tli 
(■l- — In  18!l.-)  did  you  go  wealing?      .\. — Yes,  sir. 


'Pi 


olieer. 


m;:  ivd 


in 


■lihj" 


It 


i 


lO 


20 


3^^ 


71S 

(W.  E.  lUikor— Diiott.) 

Q. — As  cniitiiin  of  what  vessel?      A. — The  ''lM()iie<'r.'' 

ii. — In  18i>r>  flid  joii  go  sealing?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — As  eaptam  of  what  vessel?      A. — The  ''Pioneer." 

(i. — So  fliat  from  ISSS  to  1S!M>  von  have  been  ont  sealing 
every  year  ns  master  of  a  vessel?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

ii. — If  yon  liad  no  exi)erien«e  in  1SS7  yon  have  had  exix-ri 
ence  sinee?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — (lenerally  speaking,  have  yon  been  a  successful  man  or 
not?       A. — Very  successful,  I  think. 

Q. — As  a  matter  of  fact  has  there  been  any  other  sealing 
man  as  successful  as  yon  have  been? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  do  not  think  that  question  is  in  order. 

Mr.  Peters: — Well,  T  will  take  the  general  statement: — 

Q. — You  have  been  very  successful?       A. — Y(>s,  sir. 
(i. — We  will  come  to  the  year  18S!»,  and  you  went  out  that 
year  on  the  "Viva?"      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  trip  did  you  go  on?  A. — I  went  on  the  Call- 
fornian  coast. 

<}. — We  will  call  it  for  the  sake  (»f  distinction,  the  south 
ern  coast?      A. — Ye^,  sir. 

Q. — You  went  there  about  what  time  of  the  year?  A. — 
Some  time  in  February. 

(■i. — And  you  took  the  usual  time  on  that  voyage,  I  pre- 
sume?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i. — On  that  vovage  did  you  have  anv  success?  A. — I 
had. 

Q. — Have  you  a  book  showing  each  day  the  catch  you  made 
during  that  year?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Have  you  that  book  with  you?       A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q. — ran  you  refer  to  that  book  and  tell  me  what  yon  caught 
on  the  siMithern  coast  during  the  year  18H0?  A. — 5S!)  is  tlie 
number. 

Q. — Where  d'd  you  catch  those'  A. — On  the  southern 
trip. 

(-1. — When  you  si)eak  of  the  southern  coast,  will  yon  tell  us 
how  far  that  trip  extended?  What  is  the  northern  point  of 
it?      A.— rsnally  to  Caiie  Flattery. 

Q. — And  south  to  where?      A. — To  San  Francisco. 
Q. — And  it  was,  generallv  sjieaking,  on  that  ground  that 
you  fi  Mied  in  the  first  part  of  the  year  1SH!(?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i. — Did  yoii  land  your  sonlhein  catch  at  N'ictoria?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Before  proceeding  on  your  northern  trip?  A. — Ves. 
sir. 

ii- — Did  you  then  start  on  your  northern  trip?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q. — Including  the  Uehring  Sea?  A. — Including  the  Hili 
ling  Sea. 

Q. — ^.\nd  also  the  sea  on  the  way  up  to  it?       A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q. — Tty  a  reference  t(f  yoiii'  book,  can  you  tell  me  when 
y(»u  tirst  had  seals  on  your  northern  ti-ip  that  year?  A. — Yes, 
sii\ 

(i.— (Jive   me   the   date   please?       A.— The   7tli    May. 
Q. — Can  you  tell  me  by  reference  to  your  book  how  many 
seals  y<tu   caught    on   your  northern    trij*  befiu'e   vou    got   to 
60  Uehring  Sea  in  ISSit?  '    A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — S'ou   caught   how  manv?       A. — S72. 
Q. — Can  you  tell  nie  the  total  catch  yon  made  iij  I'.ehviiig 
Sea  flint   year?       A. — Yes,  sir. 
(i.— How  many?       A.— 2 1  SO. 

(i. — Now,  can  vou  give  me  the  total  catch  for  the  season? 
A.— .•{<i41  I  think' it  adds  up. 

(J — That  was  the  Total  catch  for  the  seas(m?  A. --Yes, 
sir. 


40 


SO 


lO 


20 


30 


4^ 


719 

(\V.  E.  Hiikoi— Direct.) 

Q. — \<)w,  «iin  ,von  tell  iiu'  by  a  ivf^Tt'iuL'  to  your  book  what 
(lay  yon  coiiuiUMici'd  soalinij;  in  IJcbriuj;  Swi  that  year?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Wlicn?      A.— Tlic  4tli  of  July. 

Q. — And  what  was  tlio  last  day  you  tislicd  in  Rolirinst  Swi 
tliat  year?      A.— The  21  st  Angii'st". 

Q. — Can  you  givo  nio  tho  number  of  days  in  July  that  you 
fished  in  Helirinf;  Sea?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

ii. — That  is  the  days  in  whieh  you  taught  seals?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q. — How   many?       A. — 2;?  days  in  July. 

i}. — And  how  many  days  in  August?      A. — 15  days. 

(i. — ^Vhat  was  the  weather  during  the  months  of  July  and 
August — good  or  bad?      A. — Very  good,  sir. 

Q. — For  the  sake  of  convenience,  I  have  taken  those  days 
off  and  jtrobably  it  miglit  be  better  to  read  them  to  the  wit- 
ness. 

The  Commissioner  on   the   part  of  the  Tnited    States: — I 

would  like  t^o  have  them  in  the  notes- 
Air.  IN'ters: — I  will   read  this  over,  and   if  I    read   tlu'ui 

aright  30U  say  "yes."    It  gives  the  day  of  the  month  and  the 

number  you  caught  on  each  day.      July  4th,  you  caught  15 

seals?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — July  6th  you  caught  ti  seals?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — July  7tli  you  caught  4  seals?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

i}. — July  Sth  you  caught  2  seals?       A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — July  loth  you  caught  til  seals?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

(J.— July  rith  you  caught  1)0  seals? 

Q. — eluly  12th  you  caught  22  seals? 

i}. — July  l.'Uh  you  caught  7.'$  seals? 

(2. — .Inly   14tli  you  caught  05  seals? 

Q. — July  15th  you  caught  (t5  seals? 

(i. — July  Kith  you  caught  .'{  seals? 

(.}. — -July  iTtli  you  caught   1   seal? 

Q.— -Inly  ISth  you  caught  2  seals? 

(i.— July  l!»th  you  caught  !t  se.ils? 

(.}. — .July  2(»th  you  caught  4  seals? 

Q.— July  21st  you  caught  40  seals' 

Q.— July  22nd  y<»u  caught   10!»  seals? 


A. — Yes,  sir. 
A. — Yes,  sir. 
A. — Yes,  sir. 
A. — Yes.  sir. 
A. — Yes,  sir. 
A.— Yes,  sir. 
A. — Yes,  sir. 
A. — Yes,  sir. 
A. — Yes,  sir. 
.\. — Yes.  sir. 
A. — Yes,  sir. 
A. — Yes,  sir. 


150 


60 


Q. — July  24th  you  caught    170  seals?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — July  25tli  you  caught  'Mi  seals?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — July  2t>tli  you  caught  SO  seals?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

(].— July  2!tth  you  caught  'M   seals?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — July  :{Oth  you  caught    151   seals?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i.— I  have  added  that  up  and  the  total  iuade  111(5;  is  that 
correct?       A. — I  think  so. 

Q. — Xow,  we  will  turn  to  August,  and  I  will  call  out  in  the 
same  way,  and  if  I  am  correct  you  will  answer  "yes."  A. — 
Yes.  sir. 

Q. — .\ugust  5th  you  caught  07  seals? 

i}. — August  (>(h  you  caught  1(14  seals? 

Q. — August  7tli  you  caught  5!)  seals? 

Q. — August  Sth  you  caught   15  seals? 

Q. — August  !Mh  you  cauglit  (15  seals? 

Q. — August  10th  you  ciugiit  1  seal? 

Q. — August  11th  you  caught  (i;{  seals? 

Q. — August  12th  you  caught  1  seal? 
.*■}. — August  1:5th  you  caught  ;{  seals? 

(J. — August  14th  you  caught  l(t5  seals? 

Q. — August  15th  y<iu  caught  1S5  s'als? 

(J. — August  KKli  von  caught  00  seals? 

Q.— August  1!(lh  you  caught  SO  seals? 

Q. — August  20th  you  caught  2('  seals? 


A. — Y(  s,  sir. 
A. — Yes,  sir. 
A. — Yes,  sir. 
A. — Yes,  sir. 
.\. — Yes,  sir. 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

.\. — Yes,  sir. 
A.— Yes,  sir. 
A. — Yes,  sir. 
A. — Yes,  sir. 
A. — Yes,  sir. 
A. — Yes,  sir. 
A. — Yes,  sir. 
A. — Yes,  sir. 


Hi 


WW 


I, 


1:1'' 


il:t 


m 


720 


iii^ 


'I' , 


'4^Y 


"1. 

4 
11 


n 


10 


20 


30 


40 


(\Y.  E.  Bakei— Direct.) 

Q. — Aii{>ust  'Jlst  .y')u  cinifjlit  4(»  stals?    A. — Vcn.  sir. 

(i.— I  find  that  tiic  total  is  l(t(i4;  is  tliat  cont'tt?  A.— 1 
have  not  added  tlu-iii  up.  but  I  pri'siiuK!  it  is. 

Q. — Now,  liavinj;  uiude  Ihis  }>('ii»'ral  statenit'iit  witli  rcpiid 
to  that  vear.  let  nic  aslx  .vou  were  you  liuntiufi  on  llu'  "Viva"' 
with  white  men  or  with  Indians?      A. — Wliite  men. 

(i. — Can  ,vou  tell  me  tlie  number  of  boats  slie  liad?  A.— 
She  had  seven  aItoK<tlier;  six  hunting:  l)oats  and  a  sh-rn 
boat. 

Q. — Was  (he  stein  l)oat  used  as  a  refjular  liuntt  r  (hat  year? 
A. — X«»,  sir;  not  tliat  year. 

(i. — Hut  oecasionally  it  was  used  bv  whom?  A. — l?v  mv- 
self.  ■  '      ■ 

Q. — And  (liar  was  (lu>  onlv  occasion?       A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Wliat  was  your  comph'm(>nt  of  men?      A. — 2:?  all  told. 

(i. — And  of  c<turse  you  used  fjtins  in  tSS!(?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — In  the  "Viva"  how  many  hunters  had  yon  (o  each 
boat?      A. — (>n;>  hunler. 

<i. — And  how  nniny  men  to  each  boat?      A. — Two  nu'n. 

(i. — Two  men  besides  the  liuntei?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

(}. — That  is  to  say,  you  Inid  a  hunter,  a  boit  s(eerer  and  a 
puller?       A. — ^'es.  sii. 

♦i. — In  ISSS  \()u  went  out  sealinj;:?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i.— In  wha(  ">hii»?      .\.— In  the  -'Viva." 

il. — ^ViIl  you  kindly  tell  me  when  you  befjan  your  voya^ie 
in  1S8S?      A. — I  befian  sealiufj;  the  21st  Feiiruary. 

(J. — On  what  you  call  (he  sondiern  c(»as(?       .\. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — That  is  from  San  Fiancisco  (o  rajte  FlaKery?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

(2. — \Vhat  is  the  last  dav's  sealing!;  (hat  yon  made  <m  that 
trip?      A.— May  Ifitli. 

(J. — And  you  got  on  that  trip  how  nmny  seals?      A. — StKi. 

Q. — Then  did  you  start  on  the  northern  (rip?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q. — Can  you  (ell  uu'  the  first  day's  huntiuf;  yon  had  on 
your  northern  trip?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — 1  suppose  this  testimony  bears  on  the  av- 
erage catch  in  ISS'J? 


Mr.  Peters: — And  also  on  fhe  si»e<ial  claims  of  1><87  where 
they  were  preven(ed  from  tishin};  in  1.S8IS. 

Mr.  I'eters: — Wluit  is  the  first  day's  catch  you  bad  on  your 
northern  trip?      A. — On  the  2nd  June. 

ii. — That  was  on  the  way  from  Victoria  up  (o  IJehrinjf  Sea, 
or  what  is  called  thi-  northern  coast?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

t^. — Can  you  (ell  me  how  many  seals  you  caught  on  that 
^^    ntudiern  trip  lu  fore  you  got  to  liehrinsj;  Sea?       A. — Y'es,  sir. 

(i.— How  many?      A.— 4.'$fi. 

t^. — Can  you  tell  me  the  first  day's  sealinj;  yon  had  in  IJch- 
liiij;  Sea?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i.— When  was  it?      A.— July  8th. 

(.1. — Can  yon  (ell  me  the  (list  day's  sealini;  yon  had  in  Ueli- 
riiifj;  Sea?       A.  —Yes,  sir. 

Q.— What  was  it?      A.— S.'jdember  2nd. 

(i. — Can  you  (ell  mr  the  (o(al  number  of  seals  you  cau}j;ht 
,       in  IJehrinji  Sea?       A — Y's.  sir. 

Q.— What  is  i(?      A.— 1,508. 

Q. — The  (o(aI  you  (aufjht  <ni  your  n«M'thern  triji  was  2,(1(14? 
A. — Yes,  sir,  on  my  northern  (rij)  and  in  Hehrin};;  Sea. 

(i.— What  w.is  your  total  catch  for  (he  sejison?      A.— 2.8T."i. 

Q. — In  making'  up  what  you  caiiglit  in  Helirinfj  Sea  and  also 
on  (he  northern  trip  is  there  anything  (o  be  added  (o  the  (If: 
ures  von  have  fjiven?  A. — Yes,  sir.  (!.">  seals  whidi  are  no( 
included. 


72\ 


lO 


20 


30 


(W.  E.  HuktT- Direct.) 

Q. — Not  iuclu(]i'd  iu  the  tigiireH  yon  mentioned  before?  A. 
No,  sir. 

Q. — So  that  you  rotjil  latcli  was  \vl»at?  A. — My  total 
catch  was  2,875;  I  included  the  (i5  seals  in  that. 

Q. — That  incl'ided  the  (i'l  tiiat  were  caufjht  in  tlie  stern 
boat?      A. — Y-:'8,  sir. 

(J. — Looking  at  your  book  again  will  you  kindly  tell  me 
how  many  days  you  fished  in  Behring  Sea  in  the  mouth  of 
July?      A.— 14  days. 

Q. — In  the  montli  of  August  how  many  days?  A. — 1!J 
days. 

Q. — Are  you  sure  that  is  right?  I  have  marked  20  days 
here?      A. — It  was  I!)  days. 

Q. — And  how  many  days  in  September?      A. — One  day. 

Q.— Can  you  tell  me  the  total  catch  in  July?      A.— 881. 

Q. — Give  me  the  total  catch  for  August  that  year?  A. — 
686. 

Q. — In  addition  to  the  catch  you  have  mentioned  for  July 
and  August,  would  there  be  something  to  be  added  for  what 
was  caught  in  the  stern  boat?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Have  you  got  the  amount  in  your  book,  showing  what 
the  stern  boat  did  catch?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Just  look  at  that  and  tell  me  what  you  caught  in  -h^ly 
and  August,  the  two  months  together?      A. — She  caught  51. 

Q. — And  that  would  have  to  be  added  to  the  other  figures 
for  the  catch  in  Ueliring  Sea?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

H. — In  1888  how  many  boats  had  yoti  on  your  vessel?  A. 
— I  had  six  hunting  boats  and  the  stern  boat  on  the  southern 
trip. 

Q. — And  on  the  Behring  Ser.  trip  how  many  boats  had  yo>i? 
A. — Five  hunting  boats  and  the  stern  boat. 

Q. — Will  you  be  kind  enough  to  tell  me  what  the  weuther 
was  like  for  hunting  that  year  in  Behring  Sea?  A.— Thr 
weather  was  favourable. 

Q. — How  many  men  did  you  have  in  1888?  A. — I  had  2:{ 
all  told  on  the  sorithern  trip,  and  on  the  Behring  Sea  trip  I 
had  20  all  told,  if  I  remember  aright. 

(I. — Now  you  liave  made  a  statenu'nt  there  as  to  what  seals 
you  caught  daily  in  the  Behring  Sea  that  year?  A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Will  you  kindly  read  that  out?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i. — Does  that  include  the  stern  boat?  A. — The  stern  boat 
is  separate  but  I  will  give  it  afterwards. 

Q. — What  you  are  about  to  read  now  does  not  include  the 
stern  boat?      A. — No. 

Q. — Please  state  the  number  of  seals  you  caught  in  that 
year  in  Julv  and  August,  and  the  dav  you  caught  them  on? 
A.— On  Julv  nth  I  caught  1  seal;  Julv"  !Hh,  0  seals;  July  10th, 
:{1  seals;  July  11  th,  7  seals;  July  12th.  18  seals;  July  l.'UIi, 
I  seal;  Julv  11th.  5(!  seals;  Julv  15tli,  181  seals;  Julv  Hith, 
17  seals;  Julv  17th.  41  seals;  Julv  18th,  151  seals;  July  1!lt!i, 
154  seals;  July  2Gth,  02  seals;  July  28th.  11!)  seals;  that  is  all 
for  July. 

(i. — Now  give  us  the  montli  of  August?  .V. — On  August 
.">th  I  caught  nine  seals;  .\ugust  7fh.  24  seals;  August  8th,  .1 
seals;  August  10th.  0  seals;  August  12th.  16  seals;  Augu.st 
l."?th.  7  seals;  August  14th.  218  seals;  .Vugust  15th.  12  seals; 
(Jq  August  16th.  1  seal;  August  18th.  6  seals;  August  10th,  8 
seals;  .Vugust  20lh,  7.'$  seals;  August  21st.  0  seals;  August 
22nd,  8  seals;  August  2;?rd.  1  seal;  August  25th.  .55  seals; 
August  2«th,  .50  seals;  August  27th,  170  seals;  August  30th. 
1  seal.     That  is  all  foi'  .Vugust. 

(i. — And  in  Sept«'mber  how  many  did  you  catch?  A. — I 
laught  one  seal  on  ihe  2nd  September,  that  is  all. 

Q. — Be  kind  enough  to  turn  to  the  stern  boat  account, 
lakiutv  the  same  month,  and  give  us  the  number  of  seals 

46 


40 


50 


i-i 


iiinj. 


'«? 


A. — 111  the  "Viva." 
liiiv«'  tlint  yciir?      A. — Six 

-Twcnfv-tliict'  iiu'ii. 


20 


iv»  you  fislicd  in  .hilv? 
yon  flsliod  in  Aujiiist? 


T22 

(W.  K.  lliiliiT— Diirct.) 

♦  iiujiht  for  oiicii  diiv.  A.— On  -Inly  KMli  I  tiuiglit  2  seiilw; 
Jnlv  lUlli,  1  seal;  ,lnly  14111,  1  seal;  -Inly  ir>tli,  11  walH;  .luly 
IStii,  5  soalH;  .Inly  lil'tli,  4  scaiw;  Jniy  liOtli,  1  seal;  .Inly  2Stli. 
4  Hi'als.     Tliat  w  all  tor  -Inly. 

Q._\ow  with  rcpird  to  Aiinnst?  A.— On  Anfiust  1411i,  14 
NcalH;  Anj,'nH(  2(Mli.  1  seal;  AntjnHl  'JUIli,  1  Hcal;  Aligns!  '-'7lli, 
',)  K(>alM. 

Q. — \,)w  did  yon  p)  to  tlio  Ik-hi-in}^  Sea  tlio  foUowinj,'  yoar, 
•°  nanu'ly.  18!Mt?   "a.— Yes.  sir. 

(i. — What  v<'ss«'l  did  yon  j^o  in? 

Q. — TIow  many  Ito.its  did  slu* 
linntiue  boats  and  a  stern  boat. 

(i. — And  how  many  men?     A.- 

Q.— Will  yon  kindly  tell  me  for  that  year,  did  yon  Ro  on  any 
otlier  tHps  besides  the  northern  trip?  A. — I  went  »\\  the 
sontlu'rn  trij). 

Q.— Will  y<ni  till  me  the  first  day  yon  began  flsliinj;  in 
Mehrin<;  Sea  in  1S!»0?  Von  have  that  stated  there  in  the  liook 
also.     A. — Yes.  sir,  it  was  the  7th  of  -Inly. 

Q. — And  what  was  the  last  day  that  you  fished  there?  .\. 
—September  12th. 

Q.— t'ould  yon  tell  me  your  total  catch  for  the  Hehiing  Sea 
that  year?     A.— Ves,  sir!  ^.Ill.'t. 

Q. — (Jive  mo  the  iinmber  of  dii 
Fifteen  days. 

Q.— And  the  number  of  days 
Twenty-two  days. 

Q. — .\nd  the  number  of  davs  von  fished  in  September? 
3°  —Eight  days. 

Q. — Can  you  remember  the  number  you  caught    in  .luly? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — There  is  no  probable  catch  claimed  for 
1800,  and  we  submit  that  it  is  remote,  and  the  same  rule 
would  cover  as  was  in  tlie  minds  of  your  Honours  when  you 
excluded  any  exainination  of  ilr.  Alexander,  the  Tnited 
States  Fishery  Commission  Agent,  by  us,  as  to  the  catches 
of  1S!)4  and  IS!),^.  Of  course,  if  there  was  a  i»rob- 
able  catch  claimed  for  IS'.Ml  tliere  would  be  no  question  about 
/)0  it  under  your  Honour's  ruling  to  fake  the  testimony  as  to 
probable  catch(>s,  reserving  the  cpiestion  for  fiitur»>  argument. 
There  is  no  (|Uesti(ni  lieve  as  to  the  cases  of  seizures  in  ISHfi 
where  they  claimed  ihe  probable  catcli  for  ISST.  or  the  seiz- 
ures ii.:-  1SS7  wliere  they  claimed  (he  probable  catch  for  1SSS. 

The  Commissioner  on  tlie  part  of  Her  Majesty: — I  do  not 
renienil\'r  wliat  was  ruled  before,  but  it  seems  to  me  tliiit  the 
catch  f(M-  any  reasonable  year,  es]»ecially  after  the  time  in  re- 
sjM'ct  to  which  the  claim  is  made  wouhlTiave  a  bearing,  be- 
caiLse  presumably  tli"  seals  are  not  a|tprtMiab!y  greater. 
5^'  Therefore  at  all  events  within  a  limited  nuinbei'  of  years  thoy 
may  be  considered  to  be  alKMil  the  same  in  nnmbor,  and  the 
catch  in  any  \^'\^v  to  be  reasonably  close — not  getting  to  re- 
mote fi(un  the  date  in  cpiestion — would  seem  to  me  to  have  a 
very  obvious  bearing  njxm  the  probable  catch  for  the  year  in 
(|nesti<Mi.  If  we  have  ruled  out  evidence  of  this  kind  in  1S!t4 
the  jd'oiier  conr.se  would  be  to  allow  that  evidence  to  be  given, 
if  it  is  c(msiderid  that   lS!t4  is  not   too  remote. 

The  ("oniinissioner  on  the  |>ar(    of  the   I'nited  States: — It 
waw  ruled  out  after  veiv  careful  consideration. 


A.— 
A.— 
A. 


6c. 


The  ('(niimissioner  on  the  ])art  of  Her  Majesty: — The  evi- 
dence might  not  be  admissible  in  1S!»4,  because  at  that  time 
the  mode  of  se.iling  was  changed  after  the  regulations  came 
in  force,  and,  of  course,  with  a  changed  mode  of  sealing  (lie 
circumstances  would  not  be  th(>  same  and  the  evidence  would 
not  be  aiijilicable;  but  it  would  be  otherwise  where  the  mode 
of  fishing  is  tli"  same. 


ON.  K.  r.akcr— hiivcl.) 

Tlu'  ("ominiHsioiiiM-  on  (In-  purl  of  llic  riiiird  HIalt's: — In 
ISS!)  was  not  the  Ihvi  practitally  driven  out  of  lU'lirinp  Sea? 

Ml'.  IN'teiM: — In  1SS!(  this  man  was  not. 

Tin*  ('oniniissiont'i'  on  the  |>ai't  of  I  he  I'nitiMl  Slates :--Th(> 
warning;  had  tl'c  elfeet  of  |»raclieall,v  drivin);  ail  tlie  boats 
(Mit  t»f  Heiirinf;  Sea. 

Mv.  I'etei's: — Tt  drove  out  a  k''""'   nuiuy. 

The  roinniiHsionei*  on  llie  jiart  of  the  United  Stales: — It 
])raeti(-all,v  drove  out  the  entire  tieet.  I  reinenili<'r  distinitlv 
Hie  nilinjj;.  it  was  about  1S!M.  We  lield  tluit  you  could  not 
l»ut  in  tlie  evidence  -is  to  1S!I1  because  it  fiave  tli(>  otlier  sidf 
tlie  opjiort unity  of  Koinji  into  Hie  (luesticui  as  to  wliether 
there  had  not  tieen  circunistauces  whicli  diiiuged  Hie  condi- 
tions of  seal  liteduriiif:  the  interval.  It  was  oi»eiiiii;r  up 
(fuestions  which  it  was  not  woitli  our  while  to  investijiate. 
20  Here  conies,  now.  thi'  same  (inestion  to  my  mind.  If  the 
Tnited  States  admitted  that  the  circuuistances  were  iiracti- 
cally  the  same  in  1800  as  they  were  in  ISSt!  or  l.'iST,  then  per- 
haps this  woul  1  not  come  under  the  ruliiii!;  we  have  made. 
However,  my  leirned  friend  also  desii'es  to  hear  tin  evidence, 
and  that  settles  the  matter. 

Mr.  Diclvinson: — I  was  about  to  say  that  the  intimation  of 
His  Lordship  was  suttfcient  for  us. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  jtart  of  the   Tnited   States: — It 
5°  opens  up  the  case  so  that  you  can  show  whether  or  not  there 
were  special  cii-cumstances  in  that  case. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  ^lajesty: — Certainly. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — It  is  open  to  show  that  the  catch  of  IS!(() 
was  modified  by  circ.imsttinces. 

Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Peters  continued: 

Q. — Can  you  cemeinber  the  number  of  seals  you  caufjht  in 
■Iiily  in  the  Kehrinj;  Sea  for  the  year  lS!)t(?      A. — Yes,  sir, 
■^'^   ISO. 

ti. — In  Aufrusr  how  many  did  you  catch?      A. — 1,45!(. 

Q. — In  September  of  that  vear  how  nianv  did  vou  catch? 
A.— ;?7(l. 

(i. — How  ma  ly  davs  did  vou  catch  seals  on  in  .July,  18!)()? 
A.— 15  days. 

Q. — How  many  davs  did  you  catch  seals  in  August  1800? 
A.— 22  days. 

Q. — How  many  davs  did  you,  catdi  seals  in  September 
18)10?       A.— Ki},'ht  days. 

Q. — (Jive  us  I  he  statement  of  what  the  catch  was  each  day. 
Will  you  kindly  r<'ad  it  otY  from  your  book?  A. — On  duly 
7tli  the  catch  w;!s-  1  seal;  .liilv  !Mh'.  1  seal;  .lulv  lltli,  4  seals; 
July  15th,  22  seals;  .luly  ISIh.  2  seals;  .Inly  lOtli.  15  seals; 
-Inly  20tb,  22  seals;  .Inly  2tsl.  IS  seal.i;  .Inly  22nd.  40  seals; 
.hilv  2:$rd,  2  seals;  Julv  24th.  ;!0  seals;  .lulv  25tli.  It!  seals; 
•Inl'v  2r>th,  5  seal?;  Julv'2!>th,  1  seal;  .lulv  .'{oih.  1  seal;  that  is 
all 'f<n- duly. 

Q. — Now  give  us  the  catch  f<n"  the  month  of  .Nuffust?  A. 
Tio  — <^'>  .Nugust  4th  the  catch  was  two  seals;  August  (!th,  1  seal; 
August  Sth.  42  seals;  August  Dth.  '>C>  seals;  August  lOtli.  l.'il 
seals;  August  11th.  'il  seals;  August  12lli.  7!)  seals;  August 
14th,  20  seals;  Angiist  15th,  3!»  seal.^;  August  17th.  1  seal; 
August  ISth.  2  seals;  August  10th.  1  seal;  August  21st.  .1 
seals;  August  22nd.  204  seals;  August  2.'{rd.  175  seals;  August 
24th,  1.54  seals;  .\ugust  25lli.  04  seals;  .Vugiist  2»tth.  51  seals; 
August  27tli,  00  seals;  August  20lli,  00  seals;  August  ."iOtb, 
108  s<'als;  August  .'U.^t,  :U  seals.      That  is  all  for  August. 


5e 


i 
ill 


III' 


!1i 


''I'll:' 


:i       'I 


724 
iW.  K.  HakiT— Direct.) 

Q. — Now  wivu  lis  (lio  catcli  for  Scptcinbci?  A. — On  Si'p- 
t('iiib«'i'  iHt  1  niiifjlit  HO  hciiIh;  HciitcmlM'f  'Jiid,  ft  Ht'uls;  Rcptera- 
her  .'{rd,  l\'.\  hchIm;  Kcplciiibcr  4tli,  40  hciiIh;  HcpttMiilMT  7lli,  I 
seal;  Scplcinbcr  KHli,  40  Heals;  Heplciiiber  lltb,  4  sealH;  Hep- 
tcinber  iL'tli,  HO  wals;  tliat  iw  all  for  Septcinbor. 

Q.— Did  .von  (inh  in  HcliiiMK  Sea  in  IHOl  or  ]H!»L'?  A.— No, 
sir,  I  did  not. 
JO  Q. — (.'ajitain  Ualvcr,  1  wihIi  nenerallv  1<t  ask  yon  one  qnes- 
lion.  In  flHliing  in  llie  .years  .von  liave  mentioned  in  HelirinR 
Sea,  wonld  .von  tell  )ne  k»'"«''"'".v  speakin};  wliat  i»art  of  (be 
sea  .von  fished  In?  Take,  sa.v,  willi  re!,'ard  to  the  Prib.vloff 
Islands.  A. — The  first  two  .vears  I  sealed  niostl.y  to  the 
Konthwnrd  and  westward  of  the  Islands. 

Q. — And  abont  what  distance  fnnn  the  Islands?  A. — 
From  fiO  to  00  miles. 

Q.— That  is  in  1H8H  and  18H9?     A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  in  IHOO  whereabonts  did  .von  fish?     A. — 1  flshod 
20   the  first  ]mrt  of  the  season  to  the  westward  and  sonthward  of 
the  Islands. 

Q._And  abont  what  distance  from  he  Island?  A.— From 
(iO  to  !I0  miles.  The  latter  jiart  of  the  seas<m  I  fislied  to  the 
eastward. 

Q.— How  far  from  the  Islands?     A.— From  40  to  fiO  miles. 

Q. — While  ,von  were  at  sea  in  IHSi)— now  refer  to  .vonr  book 
and  tell  me  what  vessel  .von  sjioke— take  first  the  liMh  .Inly, 
IHHi)?     A.— I  sjKike  (he  schooner  •Palfinder"  on  that   day. 

Q — Did  luM"  cap(ain  come  on  board  yon?     A. — I  am  not 
30  positive  whether  I  wtnt  on  board  him  or  wliedior  ho  came  on 
board  me. 

t^. — Yon  saw  her  caplain  at  all  <'ven(s,  or  yon  wen(  on 
board  him?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Had  she  sealskins  on  board  when  you  goi  (here?  A. 
—  Yes,  sir. 

tj. — How  nuiny?      A. — Four  hundred  and  for(y  nine. 

(i. — Tha(  is  entered  in  .vonr  book,  I  Ttelieve?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  yon  speak  any  other  vessel?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

ij. — \Vha(  odier  vessel  did  yon  sjieak  on  (lia(  day?     A. — I 
4°  spoke  none  other,  but  I  spoke  one  the  dav  before. 

Q.— What  was  shi-?     A.— The  "Annie  C.  .Mo<n-e." 

ii. — Did  von  speak  the  "PenelopC'?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— And'the  "Mary  Kllen"?     A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  yon  find  out  what  seals  tlie.v  had  on  board  when 
.von  spoke  tliem?  (live  me  the  dates  on  whicli  yon  spoke 
Tlutse  vessels.      A. — The  'Penelope"  I  spoke  on  the  18th  July. 

Q. — Row  many  seals  had  she?  A. — One  hundred  and 
ninety.     I  spoke  the  "Annie  f.  Mooio"  on  the  ISth  July. 

Q. — How  many  seals  had  she?     A. — Three  hundred. 

Q. — When  did  .von  speak  the  Mary  Ellen?"  A. — On  the 
9th  Anpist. 

Q. — How  many  seals  had  she?  A. — One  thousand  sTx  hun 
dred. 

Q. — Was  that  for  I'ehrinp;  Sea  or  was  it  the  whole  caich"' 
A. — It  was  the  whole  catch  for  the  season  of  the  "Marv 
Ellen." 

Q. — Who  was  her  captain?     A. — Captain  McLean. 
Q. — Is  tliat  Captain  Alexander  or  (\iptain   Dan   Mcl.cau? 
60  A. — Capt.  Alexander  McLean.   I  also  spoke  two  other  schoon- 
ers. 

Q.— What  others  did  you  speak?  A.— Th«'  "Bennett  Rath- 
er" on  the  'jTlth  July. 

Q. — Ila'l  she  seals  on  board?     A. — Two  hundred. 

Q.— Did  .you  sjieak  any  others?  A. — I  spoke  the  "Mi(gf,ii' 
5Iac"  on  ;!'llli  July;  she  had  SOO  seal  on  board. 

Q,— That  is  all,  is  it?     .\.--Ye8,  sir,  that  is  all, 


SO 


■  t,  i 


7»5 

(W.  E.  Hiikcr— Direct— rroNs.) 
(j. — And  ihem'  stiitonu'iiiH  yiiii  ji;ot  fioiii  the  ciipliiiiis  iif  the 

VCKHt'lN?      A. —  VtH,    Mir. 

(i. — At  (hilt  tiiiicV     A.  -  VcH.  Nir. 

Q. —  V«»u  t'liunvd  them  In  .vonr  IxM^k  at  tlu'  tiiiu'?  A. — Yes. 
nil'. 

(■i- — F<»r  your  own  inforniatinn?    A. — Ych,  hIp. 

Q. — You  do  not  guiiiiintec  tlicy  an-  coi'H'il?     A. — No,  but 
,Q  I  jiut  tluMu  down  a,)  collect. 

Q. — I  think  I  am  correct  in  Hayinjj  that  ,vou  Tiav  alwa>H 
fluhed  witli  wliite  liunterH?     A. — Yes,  Kir. 

Q. — And  never  us-d  Indians?    A.— No,  sir. 

il. — I  want  to  ask  you  tlie  (general  ((uestion — ^have  you  had 
anything  to  do  witii  ordering  the  HU|i|ilies  of  vessels  from 
year  to  year?     A. — Y«'s,  sir 

Q. — Have  you  always  ii  craged  in  vessels  about  the  samu 
estimate?       A. — Of  tlie  .same  size. 

(■l- — NYith  the  same  number  of  boats?      A. — Yes,  sir. 
20       Q- — >Yhat  is  the  itiggest  number  of  boats  you  ever  had? 
A. — Seven. 

().— Including  the  s.t«'rn  boat  or  what?  A.— Including  the 
Ktern  boat. 

Q. — Tell  me,  generally  speaking,  what  quantity  of  jtowder 
you  take  on  your  trip,  and  for  what  length  do  you  think  it 
would  last? 

The  (Vmimissioner  on  the  jtart  of  the  I'nited  States: — Y'ou 
know,  Mr.  Petere,  we  have  been  over  this  ground  two  or  three 
HQ  times.  Why  do  yo)i  not  put  the  general  question  to  him  as 
indicated  by  Judge  King?  \Yhy  do  you  not  ask  him  the 
quantity  of  powder  !ie  would  take  for  a  vessel  of  the  size  he 
has  spoken  of? 

Mr.  Peters: — Tell  us  how  much  powder  you  would  take, 
say.  for  a  five  months'  voyage?      A. — About  si.\  kegs. 

(i. — And  for  a  nine  montlis'  voyage?  A  —Twelve  or  thir- 
teen kegs. 

il. — As  between  lt(>hring  Sea  and  the  south  coast,  where 
•^  would  30U  expect  most  of  the  shooting  to  be  done — on  the 
south  cojist  or  in  the  sea?      A. — About  the  same. 

(i. — I  mean  to  say,  where  do  you  get  your  biggest  catch? 
A. — In  Behring  Sea. 

Q. — And  where  will  you  fire  the  most  i»o\vder? 

Mr.  Lansing — Whar  year? 

Mr.  Peters: — Any  years  thev  shot  in  Behring  Sea — 1887, 
l.H8,s  or  1889?      A.-A'sually  the  most  in  Behring  Sea. 
50 

(.'ross-examination  by  Mr.  Lansing: 

ii. — ('aptain  Baker,  you  say  you  have  been  very  successful 
since  you  began  sealing.  Have  you  been  as  successful  as 
any  other  captain  you  know  of  in  this  port?  A. — I  think 
so. 

(i. — Have  you  been  more  successful  than  any  other  captain 
you  know  of?      A. — In  some  cases. 

Q.— In  your  experience  for  the  years  1888.  188!)  and  18U0, 
60  wei'»>  you  not  as  successful  as  any  other  captain?  A, — I  was 
high  line  foi'  the  Heor. 

(I. — Were  you  not  uu)re  successful  than  any  other  captain 
in  those  years?      A. — In  1888  I  was  high  line. 

Q. — Tt  1888  you  made  the  largest  catch?      A. — Y'es,  sir. 

Q. — And  in  1889  you  made  the  largest  catch?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q. — And  in  1890  you  made  the  largest  catch?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 


•IJI'lN! 


'2(1 

^W.  K.  linker — <'i<»kh.) 

Q.— I>o  .villi  lliiiik  your  vt-MHcl  r<>{)ri>H<'iit*>d  tlio  hvitiihc 
•  iHcli  of  ihoHf  .vtiiis?  A.— Hlu'  wiiH  liiKli  line.  Hlie  wiih 
iiltove  llu>  avci-iigt'. 

t^— A  K<mmI  (Ictil  iihovc  (lie  iivcnip'?  A.— I  could  liot  siiy 
liow  iiiii<-h. 

ti.— l>o  .voii  know  liow  iniiiiy  veMst'lM  were  out  in  1HH!»  from 
lliiK  jiorl?       A. — No,  Mir. 
,Q       (2.— I>o.voii  know  iilioiit  how  many?      A. — I  would  Imvi'  to 
ftut'HM  at  it. 

t^. — Yon  know  alioul  liow  man.v,  niiitain,  left  tliiH  jiorl  in 
1HS!>?       A.— VcN,  [  lliink  llii'i-c  wt're  about  40. 

(\. — For  Mfliiintf  Sea?  A. —  I  think  no;  that  Ih  only  a 
rouKli  KiK'NH. 

(\. —  Is  it  no)  a  fact,  captain,  tliat  with  over  'IW  vchhcIh 
h'livintj;  this  jiort  in  1>S!»,  tlii'  total  catcli  in  Hcln-int;  Sea  was 
al»oiit  H»,r)(M»?       A.— I  do  not  know  the  total  catch. 

(\. — I    think   you   slatt'd    where   yon    made  your   luiin-ipal 
20   eatclies  in  tlioKi'  yeaiN?      \. — Yen,  sir. 

(). — In  ISilO  wh«'re  wan  your  jnincijial  maliii)?  i;i<><ii><1'^  '^- 
— To  the  westward  ^iiid  Hoiitliwaid. 

(\. — In  IS!M»?  A. — Yes.  sir;  during  the  tlrst  jiart  of  the  aea- 
Kon;  the  latter  part  to  the  eastward. 

(i. — Did  you  make  your  largest  catcli  in  the  latter  jiart? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

(\. — Then  your  clii>'f  huntiuft  urouiid  we.s  where  you  wi-re 
nt  the  Inst  of  the  seastni?      A. — That  was  the  best. 

Q. — Did  you  lliid  seals  there  in  any  other  years?       A. — I 
30   had  never  been  there  before. 

Q. — To  the  eastward  you  would  consider  the  best  liuntinn 
f;ronnd?      A. — In  that  year. 

Q. — And  yon  had  never  been  there  before,  S(»  that  you  do 
not  know  but  it  was  tlie  best  hiintiiij;  in  other  years?  A. —  I 
do  not,  sir. 

Q. — Do  the  huntiiif;  }{••<>""<•*<  thaufre  fr«mi  year  to  year?  A. 
— I  think  they  do. 

(\. — What   would  yon  say  was  the  reason  of  that?       A. — 
I  do  not  know,  except  beiii^  liunled. 
^o       (I. — Is  it  on  ac<ouiit  of  the  chaiijfe  of  their  food?       A. — II 
may  be. 

(2. — Is  their  food  niiffiatmy — wandering?  A. — I  dim't 
know  that. 

(I. — Y(Mi  know  what  I  hey  feed  on?  A. — They  feed  on 
many  things. 

(I. — l>o  they  rove  about  in  the  water  <ir  are  they  always 
found  in  <uie  locality?       A. — .Most  always. 

(i. —  Did  you,  in  1S!»2,  .laniiary  22,  make  a  statement  before 
5c>    ^Ir.  Milne,  the  Collector  of  Cnstcmis  here,  which  I  now  show 
you  as  reitrinted  in  \dl.  .T  of  the  American  Reprint,  jiane  i*")*!? 
A. — (Kxaminins  it)— Yes,  T  made  a  statement. 

Q.— You  did  make  that  slatenieiit?  \. — I  made  a  state 
meiit ;   I   would  not  swear  whellier  it   was  that  one. 

(\. — Did  you,  in  that  statement,  in  reply  to  ipiestion  41,  say 
as  f<dlows:  "(i. — ^Vhat  is  your  oitinioii  of  the  seals  on  the 
coast  and  in  |{elirin>;  Sea,  are  tliey  increasiiitj  or  decreasin};? 
A. — From  iny  experience  I  liave  not  seen  any  decrease,  bat 
60  1  liave  noticed  also  tliat  they  clianjfe  their  jjronnds  from  time 
to  time,  and  where  you  find  them  this  year  you  may  not  find 
them  the  next.  Tliis  was  very  remarkable  during  the  year 
1H!»0,  for  the  seals  were  all  found  to  the  eastward  of  the  Prib- 
ilolT  Islands  wliile  in  former  years  they  were  found  to  the 
westward."     Yon   iiuide  that  statement?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i. — Now.  in  1SS!».  ymi  say  there  were  twenty-three  days  in 
which  you  look  seals.  How  many  of  tlios<'  days  were  low- 
I'liiiK?       A. — Nearly  every  day.       I  could  nol  tell  exactly. 


r-1 

OV.   V-   Milker— CntHH.) 

(2.— Tlu'ii  oil  Moiiic  of  till-  IdWciiiiK  diijh  >t«i  «nily  look  oue 
„,.„1-;  A.— Tlicmc  (lii.VH  would  be  diiVK  we  shot  lliciii  from 
I  lie  VfHwl. 

(^._\Vli,.i,  yoi'  Hiiy  !.•:«  dii.VH,  il  (Iocs  not  ft'prcM'iit  tlif  lowef- 
iiiK  diiys  at  all,'       A.— Not   tin-  lowering  da^h. 

(^._\Vlio  wciv  voiir  Imiil.'is  In  ISM!»?  A.— Williani  l'u.ym'. 
OH.ai-  HcaitT,  Kdwaid  Kliichln,  Williani  Slii.-ldM.  Ufoi'gc  Ilowf 
,_  ami  TliointiH  llo\v«'. 

(2.— Now  in  IHH't  tlioHc  were  all  cxpfrii'mcd  hiintfiH  wcro 
tlif.v  not?       A. — All  Init  out'. 

(J._.M,.ii  wlio  had  hi'i-n  in  I  lie  biisincsM  sfvcnil  .vt-arH  and 
Hliot  Ht  iiIh  for  a  lonj;  lime?  A.— I  don't  know  jnxl  how  lonjf 
— a  1'ew  .veaiB  before. 

(2._V(,n  know  Kiitli  men  aw  Osear  Searf  tind  Kd  ShieIdH 
had  been  linnlint;  for  Heveral  .vears?  A.— A  few  .veai^  Ihey 
had  been  hniitiii(;. 

(). — Were  Ihe.v  not  iih  experienced  as  aii.v  men  oul  of  thiH 

20   I"*i''''       •^- — VeH.Hir. 

(I. — Were  Ihe.v  not  iik  ^ood  hIioIs  aw  any  men  thai  Healed 
from  lliiH  jiort?      A.— The.v  were. 

(i.— Were  they  not  belter  than  llie  average?  A.— Ilett«>r 
than  I  lie  averaf;e. 

{\.—\  \fs\m\  deal  belter?       A.— They  were  belter. 

(J.— In  ISSS  would  the  same  Nlalemeiit  ajijily  as  to  days  in 
whieli  yon  took  seals?  It  doi's  not  re|»resenl  llie  loweriiifj 
days?       A. — .No.  sii'. 

i^. — .\iid,  for  inslanee,  I  lliink  yon  staled  llial  on  Anpist. 
30  S,  1(1.  L':t  and  :!<Mh  and  September  'IwX,  yon  only  look  one  seal 
on  those  da  vs.  Would  those  be  lowering;  days?  A. — No, 
sir. 

Q. — Were  your  hnnlers  tlial  year  as  experienced  as  llie 
year  before?       A. — Ves,  sir. 

Q. — The  same  men,  home  of  them?  A.— Some  of  iheiii  the 
same. 

(t — Was  Shields  with  yon?       .\.— Ves.  sir. 

(i. — Was  Scarf  with  you?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

(\. — That  is  yon  retained  the  most  expeneiiced  men?  A. — 
40    I  '"111  name  them  all. 

(I. — Yon  kept  the  most  e.xperieneed  men,  did  yim?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

li.— Well,  in  ISS!>  yon  kepi  those  men  that  yon  had  in  1SS8, 
the  most  »>xpenenced?       .\. — Some  of  them. 

(i. — .\nd  in  lS!l(l.  how  was  it  in  rejfard  to  hnnt«'rs?  Did 
yon  have  the  same  men?       A. — No,  sir. 

(i. — Kniirely  dilTerenl?       A. — I  tiiink  some  of  the  same. 

(I. — Did  yon  have  Scarf.'       A. — No.  sii'. 

(i. — Did  yon  have  Shields?  A. — I  can  name  them  over, 
50  sir.  I  had  Thomas  ITowe,  <5eorRe  Howe;  then  I  had  for  a 
while  Frank  Howe  and  chanj^etl  iiini  for  .lames  I'arks;  Wm. 
Stoker,   Win.  \\illiains  ,ind   Kdwanl  t'anlillan. 

K\. — Those  are  all  exjterienced  men,  ai'c  Ihey?      A. — No,  sir. 

(\. — Which  ones  were  not?  .\. — Frank  Howe  and  .lames 
Parks. 

(\. — Tlie  others  weie  experienced?  .\. — The  others  were 
all  expeii»'nced. 

(i. — ^^sow  does  it   make  any  ditTerence  in   (lie  result  as  to 

whether  your  hnnlers  are  <'xperieiiced  or  not?      .\. — Yes,  sir. 

^"^       i\. — And  therefore,  a  man  with  three  year.s'  experience,  if 

lie  was  a  j{ood  shot,  would  ffet   more  seals  than  he  would  in 

his  earlier  years?       .V.— Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Now  take  one  vessel  with  one  set  of  hunters,  and  take 
your  vesstd  with  the  hunters  yon  hud — is  it  fair  to  base  the 
catch  of  that  M-ssel  on  what  you  did?  A. — There  were 
many  other  vessels  had  as  good  liunlers. 

Q. — .\nswer  my  tpiestion.      Would  il  be  fair — 


II 


'4\n 


lO 


30 


728 

(W.  K.  Hiikoi— Cross.) 

Ml',  refers; — Tlint  is  liiinll.v  a  (pieslioii  for  orosa-extnninn 
<ioii.      My  leiirned  frieiul   isks  him  if  he  piitH  all  experience*! 
hunters  against   all   inexp'-rienced   hunleis.       There  fan  be 
but  «>ne  answer. 

^li^le8tion  read.)  A. — If  they  had  as  good  hunters  as  I  had 
it  would  be. 

(i. — Von  said  you  liad  better  men  than  any  other  \essel 
that   went  out?       A. — No,  .sir;  1  didn't  say  that. 

<i. — You  did  in  the  tirst  part,  when  1  asked  you  as  to 
Shield?      A. — No  belter  than  any  other  vessel. 

<i. — (.'an  you  liame  any  other  vessel  that  had  as  good  hunt- 
ers and  as  sueiessful  a  eai»taiu?  A. — I  think  they  all  had 
as  gotid  captains.  1  do  not  know  what  hunters  each  ochoon- 
<'r  had,  sir. 

<i. — That  does  not  answer  my  (piestion.  A. — I  do  not  see 
how  else  to  answer  it. 

ii. — Well,  admitting,  then,  that   their  hunters  had  not  as 
20    nuich  experience    as  your    hunlers,  would    you  say    that   it 
would  be  fair  to  bas"  the  catch  of  tlie  other  vessel  on  what 
you  did?       A. — }ii),  sir. 

(i. — What  other  utoditications  besides  inexperii'nce  of  the 
hunters  enter  into  the  catch  in  Hehring  8ea,  or  the  probabil- 
ities? A. — Tht  weather,  for  one  thing.  Tlie  seals  are  wild- 
er sometinu's  than  at  other  times.  You  cannot  get  near  them 
so  well. 

(i. — The  skill  of  llie  captain?  A. — \'es,  sir;  in  some  de- 
gree. 

Q. — And  rain?      A. — Wind  and  weather. 
Q. — And  fog.  I  snj)pos(!  you  will  include  in  that?       A. — 
Y'es,  sir. 

Q. — Would  yiwi  say  there  was  any  luck  in  running  across 
the  seals  when  you  are  looking  foi'  them  on  your  schooner? 
A. — \'es.  a  goorl  deal;  they  call  it  hick. 

(i. — A  good  deal  of  luck,  is  there  not?  A. — Y'es,  sir. 
(i. — You  mig'.it  go  any  one  year  in  Hehring  Sea  and  return 
to  the  same  place  anollier  year  and  not  tind  a*"''  seals.  So 
where  seals  are  any  one  year  is  no  evidence  that  they  will 
be  there  another  yi'ar:  and  when  seals  are  (here  in  July  it  is 
no  evidence  that  they  will  lie  (here  in  Aug\ist?  A. — Tluit  is, 
in  certain  par(s.       Docs  tha(  apply  (o  llehring  Sea? 

Q. — It  is  only  Hehring  Sea  I  am  talking  about.  A. — Wher- 
ever I  found  (hem  in  .Inly  I  always  found  them  in  August. 

Q. — Did  you  always  go  over  the  same  ground  in  Augusf 
that  you  did  in  .lujy?  A. — Most  alv.ays;  sometimes  we 
changed. 

(^._How  about  isfio?  A.— i  changed  that  year  and  went 
(o  the  eastward. 

Q. — Why?  A. — Because  (liere  \vern"(  so  many  to  the  west 
ward 

i}. — When  you  say  (o  (lie  westward  you  mean  in  what  di- 
rection from  the  islands?      A.— rrincijially  west. 

(J.— Have  you  had  any  cxiierience  with  Indian  crews?  A. 
— None  whatevei'. 

(^._1),,  yoii  iliink  a  vessel  carrying  Indian  Imnters  makes 
as  large  catches  a»  with  white  men?  A.— Willi  s|>e;irs  tli(  y 
would  do  bett.T  in    U.-hring  Sea   in  those  years. 

(i.— Make  larger  catches?  A.— I  think  so.  with  spears, 
not  witli  shotguns. 

(^._|)i,T  (iiey  make  larger  cat  dies  (ban  you  did  in  Hehring 
Sea  in  Miose  years?       .\.— Made  average  catches. 

Q._|);,l  they  make  larger  ca(clies?  .V. — lust  an  average 
catch. 

(j._i)id  (hey  make  larger  catches  than  you?  A.— X<it 
larger 


40 


50 


60 


729 


lO 


20 


40 


(W.  K.  Itakii— Cioss— Rodiicct.) 

Q.— Did  .von  nifila-  as  large  a  latcli  iu  Behiing  Sea  aa  you 
•lid  with  while  hunt'i's?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Did  any  vessel  canying  Indians  make  a  catch  anywhoro 
near  as  larp-  as  youi^?  A.— I  don't  rtmember  tlie  different 
catches. 

Q.— And  is  it  not  .1  fact,  Cai»tain,  that  some  of  them  had 
three  times  ns  many  hunters  as  you  on  board?  A.— Not 
white  men. 

Q- — No  vessel  in  those  years  had  eighteen  canoes  on  board? 
A. — I  don't  remember  of  any;  they  may  have  had. 

Q. — A  great  many  had  twice  as  many  hunters  as  you?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  then  they  did  not  get  as  many,  did  they?  A.— 
No,  sir. 

Q. — So  the  catch  that  you  made  with  white  hunters  is  no 
evidence  of  wh.it  would  be  taken  by  a  vessel  with  Indian 
hunters';       A.— They  hunt   altogether  different   style. 

Q. — Thai  has  nothing  to  do  with  it,  has  it?      A.— No,  sir. 

Q. — Then  you  don't  want  it  understood  in  the  testimony 
you  have  given  that  a  crew  of  six  Indians  was  equal  to  a 
crew  of  six  white  men  in  Kehring  Sea  in  those  years?  A. — 
If  they  were  experienced  with  a  shotgun  they  would  be  as 
good. 

Q. — TTsing  canoes  and  spears?  A. — They  would  not  do  as 
well  with  canoes  and  spears  as  white  men  witli  shotguns. 

Q. — You  say  yonr  southern  trip  begins  in  February.  ^  hen 
do  yon  return  to  port?      A. — In  what  year? 

(i.— Well,  in  IHHit.  f<»r  instance?  A.— About  April  21,  I 
think  I  arriv«Hl. 

Q. — How  far  north  did  you  sail?      A. — To  Cape  Flattery. 

Q. — That  is  the  furthest  north?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — In  18!)0,  when  did  you  go  out  for  the  sjH'ing  catch? 
A. — I  went  out  in  February,  I  think — .January  UGtli. 

Q. — What  time  did  you  retum?  A. — I  didn't  come  to  Vic- 
toria that  year. 

Q. — What  time  did  you  reflt  on  the  West  Coast?  A. — 
linth  of  April. 

Q. — How  far  had  yon  sailed  at  that  time?  A. — As  far  as 
CajM*  Flattery. 


Redirect  examination  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q. — Yon  w'ere  asked  by  Mr.  Lansing  as  to  the  seals  ('hang- 
ing their  grounds.  You  gave  evidence  that  in  the  year  ISilfl, 
especially,  you  changed  your  ground  to  the  eastward  fi-oni 
50  where  you  had  been  previously  Ashing,  which  was  to  the  west, 
northwest  and  southwest  of  the  islands.  Will  you  tell  me 
liow  far  tho.se  two  iMiints  you  were  fishing  were  aparl? 
.v.— Oh.  fnmi  I.'")!*  to  2(10  miles. 

Q. — And  in  ordinary  years  what  space  had  you  hunted  over 
in  Hehring  Sea  when  you  wei'e  liunling  to  the  west,  north- 
west and  southwest  of  the  I'ribylotl'  Islands,  say  iu  ISSit? 
A. — Probably  a   radius  of  one  iiuudred  miles. 

Q. — Now,  I  understood  you  to  tell  .Mr.  Lansing  that  the 
seals  cliange  their  haunts  from  year  to  year;  as  a  matter  of 
fact,  are  they  always  in  Mehrinu  Sea  somewhere  around  the 
I'ribiloff  islands?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — He  also  asked  you  as  to  whether  this  lis  you  read 
showed  the  lowering  d.ays.  \(m  stated  Tt  <li<l  ni  t,  but  that 
sometiiucK  you  shot  si  als  fiom  the  vessel.  Tell  im'  what  was 
the  gi'eatest  number  of  seals  you  liave  shot  from  a  vessel  in 
a  day?  .\. — I  dtui't  remember  of  shooting  ovei'  three  iu  one 
da  V. 


''o 


WpiW.lf-"""-'  1^  I 


7'0 
(\V.   K.   IJtikci- H.'.liicct.       Liiiiitlilin    .Mcl.ciiii— Dircit.) 

(.2.- -TIk'II  if  vol  liiid  a  dav  willi  iimi-c  iliaii  llircc  sials  slio" 
in  it,  it  imisl  |i  ivc  'x-cn  a  day  on  wiiicli  von  loworod.  Is 
tliaf  wliat  von  mean?      A 


ii. — Now,  it    rt'fiard  to  Indian  1 


1  cs,  Hir. 


ninl( 


i-s.  I  undci'siodd  von  to 


;av  von  liad  iiad  i 


lo  cxpriicncc. 


llav 


('  von  cvcf  nuK 


Ic  it 


Inisincss  t<>  ascertain  wiiicii  is  li«-sl,  sviiitc  linnlri's  oi-  Indian 


linnlcrs" 


-\( 


,o       Q.—  /I'oni  actnai  fxipciicncc  von  can  tell  ns  notliinu  ahont 


hid', in  iinntcis?      That  is  \ 


onr  ansvvc 


is  it? 


i. —  I  nnd<'rstood  von  to  say  that  some  of  llic  vessels  car- 
rii'd  donltlc  as  many  Indian  linntcrs  a»  yon  carried.  1>o  yon 
I<no.v  anylliinji  aliont,  from  actnai  exiicricnce,  what  niniilier 
of  linntei-s  thes"  vessels  did  caiiy?       A. — No.  sir. 

(i. — With  rejiai'd  to  the  total  catch  mjide  in  liehrint;  Sea 
in  ISSit.  yon  say  yon  have  no  luiowledj;-!'  now?       A. — No,  sii-. 

Q. — Nor  do  yon  ]ii'etend  to  make  up  any  averaji'e?      A. — Xo 


The  Commissicnier  on  the  jtart  of  llie  I'nilid  States: — Wis 


tills  vessel   Imilt    for 
ti  shiny:. 


imu 


kerel  or  hank   lishii 


A.— P.a.iil 


Q. — Ised    for  )nackerelinfr?       -V. — She   was   new    when     1 


lioiifilit  her. 
Q.  -  And 


yon  sav  she  was  a 


fast 


es,  sir 


30 


Tho  following  testinumv  of  Lanyhlin    Mci-eaii   was  tak 


en 


onl  of  order  by  consent  as  a]i]ilical>le  to  all  cases  w\il)se(]nent 
(o  the  '•('ar(deiia."'  and  is  |(riiited  here  foi'  crnnenieiice. 

I-anglilin   .McLean  w.is  called  as  a   witness  on   the  jiart   of 


(ireat    Britain  and  dnh-  swo 


n    Kecemlier    17,    is<.t(>. 


Direct  examination  by  .Mr.  Iieiiine, 
40       (i. — Yon   reside  in  the  cit\   of  N'ictoria,   I    helievi 


Vf 


ii. — And  yon  are  aliont  noinji  sealing:?       .\.-    Yes,  sir. 
<2. — How  lonu  have  yon  lieeii,  ('ajitain,  in  the  sealing'  Inisi 


nes  ■• 


.v.- Siii.e    ISST 


*l — Inclusive?       A. —  Inclusive. 

il. — On  what  vessel  were  \()n  in  ISS'7?     A. — (tii  tlie  schoon- 


er '  i'avourite." 

Q.— In  hSSH  what   vessel  wire  von  on 


'I'^ivoniile 


g.— In   IHSIfJ 


•F 


.\s  nniHler?       \. 


ivomite, 

\s  master,   ves.  sir. 


A. 


60 


Q. — Did  yon  fio  inio  IJelirinfi  Sea  any  of  tiie.se  years'; 
—  Yes.  sir. 

(i. — Whiit  time  did  yon  jio  into  liehriii};  Sea  in  ISST?  A.— 
The  HMh  ot  .Inly. 

(i. — When  did  yon  iea\c  Itehrini;  Sea?  .\. —  I  will  have  to 
refer  (o  my  books  (exaniiniii;i  nieiiiorandiiiiii.  In  1SS7  my 
last  day  of  seal.njj  was  (he  27tli  of  .\ii.t;ii.<i.  and  I  came  out 
11ll'oil)|ll  (he  p,i.-is  on   (he  .'ilh  of  Sept^'mber. 

(^.  -III  Isss  when  did  yen  enter  r.eliriii)i  Sea  and  when  did 


\on   lea\e 


entered 


I  Kef 


erruij;'  io 


iiiemoi"iiidiiiiii     Mil  of  .Inly  I 


Itehljnu   Sea,   :!ld   of   Scplelllbel-    I    left    the   Sea.         My 


last   sealiii}!  day   was  the  l.'7tli  of  .\nj;ns( 


Q. — That    was  in   what  year?       .\ 
(i.  Why  did    win   leave  so  early' 


- 1  SS,'^. 


liad. 


H      III  ISS!I  when  did  v<m  enter  liil.riii^;  Si 
IKIi  of  .Inlv. 


The    weather   yol 
A.-   Dn  the 


.«JB^ 


(l-iitifililin   McLi'iin  — Diicct.) 

(i.— Wlicii  (Mil  ^oii  IcavcV  A.— i  si'iilod  hist  on  Hit'  lintli  of 
Aii.u;iist. 

(i.— And  you  icft  dirccily  al'liT,  1  suppose?  A.— A  few 
uays  after. 

^i- — ill  I'**'*'!*  Iiow  many  eanoes  had  you?       A. — Kh-ven. 

Q. —  Had  you  a    vliitc  irew  oi'  an  Indian  irew?  A. — Indian 

CII'W. 

,o        (2.— Did  you  keep  Jie  daily  calcii  in  July  and  August,  188'J? 
A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q.^Will  you  pve  il  to  us.'  .\. — (IJeferriufj  to  l)O(di) — On 
the  i:!th  of  July,  11  seals;  lHlh,  42;  17th,  iM  ;  18lh,  :{)»;  lOlli, 
:!(l;  I'lsl.  14;  L'Jiid.  l'.'  L':;:.l.  7;  L'4tli,  1(11;  L'ntli.  7(1;  2(ilh,  11; 
•JStJi,  4;  2!Mli,  4!l;  ;{(tlli.  17(t;  :!lsi,  l<i;  Aiif-usl  1st.  IS;  .-)(li.  14!»; 
(;(li.  l(»."j;  7lli.  -'•');  '.till,  (i4;  KMli.  li!;  lllli.  2S;  12(li.  !»;  14th, 
-';!;  l.")lli,  (m;  Kllli.  ;!;  IStli.  7;  I'.Mli.  IV-,  21st.  1!);  22iid,  4;  2r)th 
4!». 

Ci- — W'l'ic  those  all  loweiiiifi;  days?      A. — Yes.  sir,  all  low- 
2o    ering  days. 

il. — in  all  how  many  seals?      A. — "i:{(»3  in  July  and  August. 

(■i. —  In  what  jioi'lion  of  lUliiing  Sea  did  you  keejt  during 
July  and  .\ugii.«l?  A. — W'l'll,  to  the  westward  and  .south- 
ward, and  westward  of  the  I'ribylotV  Islands. 

(2. — What  dislaiiei'  fi-oiii  the  Islands,  about?  A. — Soino 
distance;  I  was  not  very  far  from  the  Islands,  to  the  west- 
wiird  and  southward  and  westward — I  can't  tell  e.xactly. 

(i. — Were  you  on   what  you   would   cinisider  then  the  best 
sealing  grounds?       .\. — \o,  sir. 
3^'        (2. — What  do  you  consider  Hie  best  sealing  grounds?     A. — 
To  the  eastward  of  lliat. 

i}. — Why  didn't  you  go  to  (lie  east?  .\. — Because  I  was 
afraid  of  getting  seized. 

iy — Ha(l  any  seizures  taken  jilace  the  previous  years?  A. 
— \'es,  sir. 

(i. — You  slati'd  that  in  ISMI  voii  wi-re  on  a  more  favorable 
gi'ound.  Can  you  indicate  on  the  chart  before  you  on  what 
grounds  you  wi'iit  for  the  pui'iiose  of  axtiidiiig  sei/.ure.  Indi- 
cate by  lalilud'  and  longitiKlc'  .\. — The  ground  that  I 
■*  worked  on  would  be  in  a  direct  iiic  from  Oiinalaska  to  St. 
Taui's  Island.  My  usual  sealing  gionnd  would  be  in  a  direct 
line  from  Ounalaska  lo  St.  Paul's  Island,  about  l(i7.rAI — 55.20; 
from  55.15  to  55, '.o. 

Q.— Is  (hat  where  yon  would  liave  been  in  1SS7  and  ISSH? 
A.^rerha|)s  lud   exactly  that. 

g. — .\piU'oxii!i;itely  th.it?  A.  -1  would  cruise  .iroiind 
(here;  I  don't  say  that    I  would  slop  there. 

Q. — r.ut   that   is  what  yon  call  the  most  favorable  gnnind? 
■  Q    .\.-   .\rouii(l  there;  in   lliat   vicjniiy. 

'  (2- — I  believe  \ou  did  stale  the  nuiiib<-r  of  canoes  yon  had 

in    ISS!»''       A.-in   l-iS!(   I   had  eleven  canoes. 

Q. — An    Indian  ei-v-w?       .\. — .\ii   Indian  crew. 

The  Comniis.sioner  (Ui  iIm-  part  of  the  I'nited  States:- — He 
has  stateil  ihe  total  catch  for  >luly  and  August;  has  he  sep- 
.-irated  I  hem? 


~ 

WflFlf)!ffJ,fl 

Ml.  Ueit|ue:     lie  has  given  (he  July  ca(cli.  your  Ilonoui'. 
^'O        (To   witness.) 

Q. — N"iw  let  us  come  b.ick  to  1SS7.  Yiui  stated  you  were 
oil  the  "Kavorile"  in  l.'^S7?       .\.     Ves.  sir. 

Q.— Will  you  give  vour  daily  latcli  (ov  ISS7?  .\.— On  the 
KKh  of  Jnlv.  :'.;  Illli.  2:t;  K'.lh.  55;  I5lh.  i:!;  17th.  4(1;  IStli. 
(IS:  2tsi.  ."»!»;  :.'2nd.  ':  2:ird.  IS;  2lili.  171;  25ih,  it;  27tli.  4; 
2!>(h.  4;  :!1si.  5(1:  .\iilmisI  IsI.  IC:  2iid.  2!t:  llli.  S;!;  5th.  1(15; 
(Kh.  KIS;  Sth.  litlt;  !llh.  :?(t;  I2(h,  Hi:!;  15tli.  Ill;  17(li.  2(1;  ISth. 


.ifl'i  IV  ;■ 


' ^^Jitfmr^^i^.wjm^fm,  u 


r'i 


l|'!i':| 


732 

(LiiiiK'Iilin  ^fcljCim — Direct — DroMS.) 

It7;  Uttli,  ;?;  L'Olh,   14;  L'liiid.  u!»;  L':{i<i,   l(t;  '2lth,   V2-2;  2m\, 
110;  2(!(li,  l!>;   iiid  th,'  2Gth  ia  the  last  day  of  scaling. 

Q. — Were  tlit'se  all  lowering  days?  A.^ — All  lowering 
days. 

(i.— What  nntriber  of  eanoes  did  you  have  in  1S,S7?  .\. — 
White  hunters. 

(i.— ^'ou  had  boats?       A. — Six  boats. 
10       ^i- — Ii"l"*li'ig'  the  stern   boat?       A. — Including  the   stern 
boat. 

tj. — Was  the  stern  boai:  used  nnuli?  A. — No,  sii-  very 
seldom. 

(i.— In  l.S><7  what  was  llie  total  calch  in  Hehring  Sea?  A.— 
1SS4. 

Q. — Now  in  KSbS  can  you  give  your  daily  catch  in  IJehring 
Sea?  A. — I  can't  very  well  give  the  details  in  ISSIS  witliout 
going  through  (lie  whole  book  again.  I  coui  1  give  the  totals. 
The  total  was  \KU. 
20  Q. — lla\c  you  slaled  from  what  time  to  wl  al  time?  -K. — 
the  Sth  of  .Inly  commenced. 

Q. — And  you  left?       .\.— (hi  liie  I'Tlh  of  August. 

Q.— What  crew  had  you  in  tSSS?      A.— Iiuliaii. 

Q. — How  many  canoes?       A. — I  had  1.*?  ;anoes. 

(.]. — Any  guns?  A. — Ves,  sir,  we  iiad  guns,  not  (he  same 
kind  (hat  we  use  now.  mu/.zle  loadii;,. 

Q. — Were  (hey  much  used?  .v. — Well,  (hey  used  to  bi' 
used  very  much;  i(  would  take  me  half  an  hour  (o  load  one. 

Q. — Tlii'y  used  SjK'ars?      A. — Yes.  they  did. 
3^3       Q. — ^A'onld  it  take  you  any  time  to  go  through  your  book 
and  give  (he  daily  ca(cli  in  ISSS?       ^'ou  can  give  it  from  day 
to  day?      A. — Yes,  fi<mi  (iiiie  (o  time. 

Mr.  Hei(iue: — I  would  like  to  get  the  information  from  him 
as  (o  (he  coas(  ca(cli  for  tlnse  (wo  years,  but  I  understand 
he  iias  not  got  (lu-  bo<ik  witli  him  for  (hose  two  years,  so  I 
will   have   to    recall    him. 


40 


To  wi(ness: — (i.— In  ISH!)  did  your  Indian  crew  use  guns? 
A.— In  ISSn,  yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  kind  of  guns?  .V. — Some  used  muzzle  loading 
and  some  used  brcecliloading. 

(2. — They      us  (1     iiiincipally        sjiears?       A. — Principally 

spears. 

r'ross-exaniina(i(in  by  .Mr.  Warren. 

Q. — ('ai)tain  McLean,  did  vou  see  Sir  (ieorge  Baden-Powell? 
A.— 1  did. 
50        Q. —  l>id  you  make  a  s(al(  iiieiil   (o  him  of  (he  ca(ch  of  (lie 
"FavourKe"  for  1SS7?       .\. — 1   miglit  have;  I  don't    remem- 
ber. 

Q. — Yon  iiia(i(  a  sia(emeii(  (o  liim,  did  yon  not?  A. — I 
can'(  ri'mciiilier  liia(  1  did,  I  remembei-  of  meediig  Tiim  once, 
(hat  is  ail. 

(i. — ^'ou  had  some  coiiversaliou  widi  him.  did  you  no(? 
.\. — I  don"(  remember  whether  I  did  or  not;  (licie  was  five  or 
si.\  of  us  me(   him  in  (lie  ciis(om  house  here. 

(i. — For  wlial  iuii|)ose  did  you  mee(  him?       .\. —  1  don't  re- 
60  member. 

iy — Did  yon  noi  lueei  liim  for  (he  |iiirpose  of  giving  iufor- 
niadoii  as  lo  s(iil  life  am!  as  (o  (lie  (iMcli  of  (lie  v<'ssels? 
A. —  \eiy  likely  I  did  sonie(  liini;  like  llia(. 

Q. — T?ut  (li.'ii  is  wlial  you  (alked  aboiil  at  (lia(  (iine,  is  it 
no(?       A. — I  (liink  i(  was. 

(i. — And  if  he  and  his  colleague  published  a  iepor(  of  (he 
calcli  of  (he  "FavouiKe"  in  l,'^.'*i7  he  secured  llia(  iiiforma(iou 
from  you   in  all  luobabilily?       .V, —  I   suiipose  he  did. 


733 


(Langhliu  McLean — Chims.' 
Q. — >'(i\v,  to  refresh  your  reeolleetioii   as  lo  wlietlier  yi 


ad  a 


eon  versa' inn   w 


itii    Sii-   (ieoruc    ISadi'nl'ttwell.    Id    nie 


refer  von  to  an  allidavit  von  made  on  the  second  day  of  Oc- 


tober, IS!(J,  American  Ue-print,  \'ol.  S.  jiajfc  <•: 


Look  at 


that  and  see  it  that  is  a  eojiy  of  the  aHichtvit  you  made  at  thiit 


time 


A. — (F'^xaminiuifl  ^''^.  i^''- 


Q. — I  will  I'ead  from  (iiis  aftidavit  a  reference  of  Sir  (leoijie 
Baden  rowell  for  tlic  pnrposc  of  frdtinfr  if  in  the  record.  It 
savs  here,  thies  it     lol.  tlial    Sir  ({eorije   I'.adcn  I'owell   asl<ed 


abont  this  hist   vear 


'And   1  "avc  an  acco'i^H  of  niv  hnnt- 


id  t\i 


^■eri    Indians. 


Tiiat  statement  is  contained 


20 


in  tliis  allidavit?      A. — Yes. 

(i.— That  refreslies  yonr  recollection  tliar  yon  did  liave 
some  conversation  witii  tliis  Itritish  ConiniissiontM-?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

(.i. — I  call  yonr  attention  to  the  re|>ort  of  the  Helirinj;  Sea 
Commission  c(nitained  in  tlie  Anici'ican  Ue|>rint,  \<)\.  (t,  {)ii};i> 
li.**.")  of  the  catch  of  the  "Favonritc"  for  ISS".  and  aslv  yon  if 
it  is  not  stated  there  that  the  total  catch  of  the  "Favonrite" 
was  \HH~  for  that  year? 

Mr.   l{ei(|ne: — The   witness  does  not    apjiear  to  liave  been 


examined  abont  this  in  this  anichnit. 


30 


Tl 


ic  (piestion  was  |»nt 


in  sudi  a  way  as  to  infer  that  it  is  based  tm  a  report  made 
by  the  witness  as  |»nblislicd  in  \'ol.  .'-!.  It  is  not  open  to  my 
learned  brother  to  ]int  in  evidence  a  repoi-t  of  this  kind. 
There  la  no  fonndation  for  it  and  I  ask  that  it  Ite  stricken 
from  the  notes. 

Mr.  \Yarren:— I   asked   the  witness  if  he  had  made  state- 
ments to  Sir  (Jeorfic   liadcn  Powell  and  he  said   he  had.       I 
asked  liini  if  the  Coniniission  had  ])iiblished  the  catch  of  the 
'Favonrite"  for  ISS7,  in  all  probability  the  information  came 


from   liin 


d    lie    re]ilie(l    "Y' 


I    now   rel'ei-  him   to  the 


repoi't    of   the    ('ommissieni  r   and    ask    him    the    (piestion    as 
above. 


Mr.    |{ei(pie: — On    reiVniii;;    lo   llie  allidavit    thai    In 
40    we  lind    that    he   made    the  al1i(Ia\it    above,   but    tiieii 


reference  at  all  to  tli 


atcli 


ol    I  lie 


•F 


I  votuiie 


The  ("omniissioiier  on  the  part  of  Her  .Majesty: — It  cannot 
do  you  any  harm.  .Mr.  I«ei(pie.  to  jjet  the  statement  of  Sir 
♦  icorj^e  Uadi'ii  I'owe!!,  unless  it  is  in  some  way  connected 
with  the  sworn  testimoii\'. 


Mr.  I)i( 


-We  submit  that  wi'  would  like  our  learned 


friends  lo  jiive  us  the  beiielil  of  the  rub    thai  they 


•50 


laid 


down  in  this  class  of  eases  and  the  benetit  of  the  rule  under 
which   they  have  cross-examined  our  witnesses. 

Mr.  Mei(|ue: — We  will  try  to  do  so.  and  try  lo  j;(ivern  our 
seh'es  by   the  rules  as  laid  down   tor  eveiybody. 

Cross-examination   couliisued  by   Mr.   Warren: 

i-i. —  Have  yon  answered  the  (piesiioii  yet.  whether  the  total 
catch  is  there  slated  lo  be  IS.sJ?  .\. — My  toial  coast  catch 
was  ISS7.  I  nii^ht  have  shot  two  or  tliree  seals  on  the  way 
60    home. 

t^. —  It  says  there,  the  lolal  calcli  of  the  viar  is  1SS7.  does 
it  not?  A. —  I  look  cliaix  '  <if  the  "Favourile"  on  the  L'Sth  of 
■May.  1  <  aii't  answer  the  (pir'stion,  because  1  was  not  in  her 
on  ihe  coast.  I  took  1  liaif;'e  of  the  \essel  on  the  Isili  of  May 
aii<l  I  VNeiil  straii;lii   lo  lliluiiij;  Sea  with  her. 


t^.     A'otl    liiiide    the    sljileniellt  :      "Tile      I'^a  Velirite"    for    111' 

year  look  (iliO  on  the  coiH^t  and  l.l'-'T  in  the  Sea,  and  I8S7  Wi 
Ihe  toial  catih  of  ;lie  yeiir?"     A.-  \'o,  sir, 


lint 

[IS 


!'ir 


^ 


/  J-+ 


liiiljnj'; 


lO 


20 


(Liiiigliliu  -MiKtaii — Cross.) 

{^.— Tlu'ii  if  Sir  (uorj;i'  ISadcii  I'owi'll  piibiislicd  tliiil,  it 
(lid  not  coiiic  I'riHU  ytm?  A. —  I  don"!  i<iin\v  wlial  siii'  got  on 
t lie  coast  lii'caiisi'  I  was  not  in  the  vi  ssci. 

t^. — Do  yoti  know  wlial  h!ic  got   in  llic  Sta?     A. — JSS4. 

(J.— If  ("lie  iiiiblisla'd  statfiiK-iil  lliat  nhu  got  I.^.IT  in  the 
Sea.  tliiit  infoiiiialion  difi  not  coint'  from  yon?       A. —  No.  »\v. 

(■i. —  l>id  any  one  t'lru'  iiavc  a  (Miny  of  tlic  log  of  tin-  "Favonr- 
itf"  for  ISS7  in  tlic  Sea  cxct'iil  von?  .\. — Not  tlial  I  fcmcni- 
b.T. 

(2. — Tlicn  wlirfc  wonid  Sir  (icorgc  IJadcnl'owcM  get  that 
slatcnuMit  if  Ii"  (ii<1  not  get  it  from  yon?  A. —  I  don't  tldidc 
Sir  (Jcorgc  Hade  n-l'DWcll  ever  asiccd  nic  for  a  statement  tlial 
1  reinemliei'  of. 

t^. — IHd  Ins  colleagnes  or  asso(  intes?  A. —  I  ueneraliy  make 
my  I'ciiorts  to  ilic  Cnstom  Mouse  of  my  cateli  of  seals,  lint  T 
don't  -emendier  of  c^ei-  mailing  a  >Jta(ement  to  Sir  <ieorge 
I'.aden-I'oweli. 

ii. — Did  an..i)ne  eNe  liave  iliis  log  lli;it  yon  liave  read  from 
tlie  time  that  it  was  written  until  .Ma\?  .\. — I  slii|)|ied  it  to 
Major  .Mexaiider  in  Itelirin^'  Sea:  <un'  day  he  asked  for  it  and 
1  slii|>ped  it  to  him. 

Q.— Did  von  ship  it  to  ^Ir.  Milne''  .\.— I  don't  think  I 
did. 

ii. — Then  Mr.  Me.\ander.  so  far  as  yon  know,  is  the  only  one 
who  has  seen  tiie  log  of  tiie  "Favourite"  for  tlie  ]mrjKi.s»>  of 
using  the  iafornmlion  therein  contiiined  since  llie  log  was 
written  until  tiii^  time?  A. — I  didn't  show  it  to  hiin  to  make 
use  of  it.  he  Jus!  merely  wanted  to  see  it. 

ii. — Did  you  sliow  Mr.  .\le.\ander  any  log  of  the  ''Favourite" 
for  any  years?  .\. — T  showed  him  this  hook  here  lindicat- 
ing.) 

Q. — For  the  ])uriio.so  of  leltilig  him  use  it  ?  A. — Tie  told  nw 
he  wanted  to  sec  it.  and  1  lei  liim  look  at  it. 

Q. — Have  you  a  log  of  the  "Favourite"  for  th(>  year  l.'^Ss? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

was  not  in  I  lie  "Favourite" 


Q._F(,r  the  vcar  li'^sti?      A.— 1 
in  ISSfi. 
40        Q. — You  <lid  not  have  a   log  in   tiiat   year?       A. — I   don't 
think  T  did. 

ii. — Have  yon  any  record  of  llie  "[■"'avouritc"  in  ISSO?    A. — 
There  iH  a  record  of  the  catch  for  a  ]iart  of  the  time. 

.\. — In  a  hook-  that  I   found 


ii. — Where  did  you   gi'*   it' 
I  hoard. 
(). — Dave  you   that   hook   with  you' 


I    don't     know 


where  it  is  now        In  1SS7  I  s;i\\   tlial  hook  last. 

ii. — Well  now   .witness,  did  von  not  ><how  Ihiit   In, ok  to  .Mr. 
.Mexaiider   in    !'.(  hring   Sea    in   ISlll?        .\.— That    is   not    this 
■T"*    book  here. 

ii. — Let  us  s'"  what  you  showed  Mr.  .\le\amler  about  tli<' 
"Favourite"  in  ISSti.  Helerriiig  to  this  menioiandnm  book, 
which  is  marked  "Favonriir's"  leg  from  isss  to  l^!t.")  inclii 
.'^ive.  iiarticnliiil.x  id  page  eight,  which  contains  iiositions  of 
catches  of  seals  in  I'eli'iiej;  Sea  for  the  sciicoiier  "!''a\  onritc." 
f  b*<S(;  Mild   1SS7,  I    will  .isk   von  it  voii  claim  to  have 


seasiiii  o 


ke|)t   that    log  yoiirsilf  origiiiall.v    lor  ISSI 


\. 


60 


(J. — What  did  you  cojiy  it  from?       .\. —  1  did  not  cojiy  it  at 

II. 
(^,_.\Vli<,se   Wilting   is    it?         \.   -Mr.   Charles   Spring's. 


ii. — And  you  i 


lo  not  know  aii\  iliiii.i:  abinii  the  correctness  o 


Hull' 


-I 


(••111  t  sav  as 


I  di 


(J. — And  yon  showed   liiat    ci.p\    le    Mr.   .\le\aiMler  in    the 
year  1MJM'.'       .\.   -He  cmne  atii.ard  and  lefi  a  book  of  his  on 


the  table  and  asked  if  In 


Mid 


Q. — And  tlic  rcjiorl  of  ^fl•.  Ahxan''er  « iinlaiiiieg  (he  log  of 


Ihe  "Fav(Mirite 


issi)  bejiriii"  oM'r  it  (lie  name  of  Mcl-eaii, 


j; 


(Liiiifililiii  .McLean — <  'ross.) 

he  got  iliiit  iuroruialion  fioiii  you?      A. — Jlc  did  not  gel  it 
I  roll!  1110. 

t^. — Did  not  you  siiow  liim  that  copy?  \.—l  did  uot  show 
lihii  the  e<»i»y. 

ii. — He  »a\v  it  wlielhef  you  showed  it  to  liini  or  uot?  A. — 
He  saw  il,  lu*  looi<ed  at  the  book. 

Q. —  IMd  you  not  sny  a  iiioiueut  ago  you  found  a  copy  of  the 
IL)    log  of  liie  "Kaveuflte""  in  issti,  or  a  porl  ion  of  tlie  log  aboard 
tile  "Favouiite?"       A. — I   remember  of  seeing  it   some  time 
in  1SS7. 

(i. — To  wliom  did  \ou  deliver  il  ?  A. — 1  did  not  delivei-  it 
to  anybody. 

i-l. — Into  whost-  possession  did  it  finally  get?  .\. — 1  lannot 
tell  you. 

(i. — How  did  .Ml-.  Spring  get  tlial?      .\. — Mr.  Spring  copied 
that  aboai'd  my  vessel.       Ami  tiie  book  was  theio  fliat  that 
was  coiiied  from,  and  it  might  be  there  yet  for  all  I  know. 
20       Q. — Where   is  the   "Favourite?"'       A — In   the  liarbouv  at 
A'icforia. 

Q.— If  it  is  Iheie  will  you  pioduce  it?      A.— If  it  is  there. 

(J.— You  own  the  ''Favourite"  now  do  you  not?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q. — You  have  possession  of  that  book,  have  vou  not,  and 
can  iM-oduce  it  if  il  is  there?     \. — Yes,  sir. 

il — I  believe  you  weni  into  the  Sea  in  1SS7  on  the  lltth  of 
.luly?     A. — On  the  Stii,  I  believe  we  went  into  Ueliring  Sea. 

(i.— .\nd  your  last  lowering  day  was  on  the  I'Tlh.  was  it? 
30  A.— I'Tth. 

il — And  the  dates  that  you  have  given  in  the  year  1SS7 
are  each  of  tlient  lowering  days,  is  that  tr\ie?  .\. — All  that 
1  read  of. 

Q. — Vou  lowered  the  last  day  in  that  year  on  the  2(>th  of 
.Vugust.  I   think?     A.— :27th,  I  think. 

Q. — ,]\n\  refer  to  your  book  in  answering  lliat?  .V. — (K.\- 
aminingi  LMith. 

Q.— Wiiy  <lid  you  leave  tlii'  LT.ili?     A.— I   had  run  sh(u-t  of 
water  and  the  weather  was  bad. 
"^         (i. — It  was  more  on  account   of  the  weather  than  because 
you  were  short  of  water?     A. — I  could  iu)t  go  home  if  I  stop- 
|M'd  much  longer  without   calling  ;it   some  |iorl. 

ii- — Did  you  slop  for  water?  .\. —  No.  sir.  I  gol  right 
home;  but  if  I  had  reniained  much  longer  in  the  Sea  I  would 
have  been  obliged  to  gel   it  sonu'wiiere. 

(i. —  Itui  you  gol  no  water  at  Oiinalaska  on  the  way  down? 
.\. — I  did  not,  no.      If  1  gol   in   I   would  not   gel  out. 

(i. — What  jiass  did   \t(ii  go  tlii'ough?     .\. — rnimak. 
-^^       i-i. — ^'on  do  not  nu'an  to  say  that  Iheie  wei'c  any  days  after 
the  L'llth   that  you   could   have   lowered?     .\. — ^■cs,   generally 
get  some  line  \\(allHr  afler  that. 

ii. — Yon  do  not  know  anylliing  about  it;  ynn  were  not 
there,  were  you?     .\.--Not    Ihal   .\c;ir. 

(i.— lu  fact  the  wr.Mlher  was  bud  on  the  27ih?  .\.— On  the 
l.'7lh  il  was  blowing  hard. 

ii- — .\nd  you   came  out?     A. —  I   came  out. 

(i.  — Did  yo!!   not   come  out   because  you   bad     a     fav<u'able 
norll,  vest   wind?     .\. — \ol   at  all.   I  did  noi   c<aue  out   of  the 
10    Sea   Ul.'il    th(     L'tld   of   Se|ileniber. 

(i- — \  'hat  were  you  doini;  in  the  meaniiun'?  .\. — Trying 
to  gel   on  I 

Q.— Doii-iiig  the  ■utters?     A.— I'arl  of  the  time. 

*i>.--Wheii'  were  yai   en   ilie  •Jiiih.   icl.ilive   to  the   Island? 

.\. — Seulhwe>t. 

(i. —  Mow  far  from  I'liimnk  I'as?  .\. —  Down  close  to 
I'ogoshilT. 


i 


!li!:,i 


llliljnl' 


iiiPVPUifii"^PW^^ 


7i(> 

(Laiighliii  MfLeun— CroBB.) 

Q. — How  luan^-  nieu  did  you  liav*'  in  tlie  boat  that  yearf 
A. — Thri't'  iiK'n. 
(I. — Whitt'  men?     A.— All  wliilc  www. 
(J. — How  large  a  irew  did  .vou     have     altt)gethei?    A.— 
Twent.yone. 

Q. — Ih  it  an  advantage  (o  have  three  men  in  a  boat  as 
against  (wo  men  in  a  boat?  A. — You  cannot  work  a  large 
boat  with  two  men  to  an.v  advantage. 

Q. — Wi'A  ^bree  men  in  a  boat  get  better  results  than  two 
men  in  a  bo.it?  A. — I  don't  know,  with  a  smaller  boat  I 
think  two  men  would  be  just  as  good. 

Q. — Do  jou  know  of  white  hunters  going  out  two  men  in 
a  boat?     A. — Yes,  sir,  1  have  known  some  to  go. 

Q.— When?    A.— Well,  I  think  it  was  in  1888  or  1880,  tho 

"Molly  Adams,"  now  the  "F.  H.  Alarvin,"  had  12  boats,  two 

men  in  a  boat. 

(i. — That  was  an  experiment,  was  it  not,  to  see     if     she 

20   I'ould   ('I'.rrv  a  large  number  of  boats?     A. — It  might   have 

been. 

Q. — Do  you  know  any  other  vessels?  A. — The  ''Sapphire'' 
at  Victoria. 

Q. — Do  you  know  of  any  other  instance?  A. — No,  I  don't 
think  I  do. 

(i. — Those  are  <'Xceptions,  are  they  not?  A. — They  are  tin; 
only  two  that  I  know  of. 

Q. — Now  if  two  men  in  a  boat  accomplish  just  as  much  as 
three  men  in  a  boat  and  they  could  use  smaller  boats,  and 
3*^   the  smaller  boats  cost  less,  why  did  they  not  do  it?    A. —  I 
always  had  three  men  in  a  boat.     I  only  had  white  liunterM 
one  year  altogether. 
Q.— Did  they  have  guns  in  1887?     .V.— Yes,  sir. 
il. — How  many  guns  in  a  boat?     A. — One;  scune  of  the  huu 
(ers  had  two.  and  some  owned  guns  of  their  own  and  took  twd 
in  a  boat. 

Q.— The  year  1>!S8   I   believe  you   had   Indians?     A.— Yes. 
sir. 
Q       Q. — That  was  the  year  y.)n  have  detailed  tlie  catch  here? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i. — In  the  year  188i>  you  lowered  youi-  Ixtats  the  last  day 
on  the  2.")th  of  August,  is  that  so?  .V. — Yes.  sir.  (he  '17A\\  of 
August. 

Q. — Did  you  run  short  of  water  that  year?  A. — I  don't 
know  what  called  me  in  that  year.. 

il. — W'Av.  it  water?     .\. — No,  sir,  there  was  vessels  with  big 
catches  after  1  left.     I  have  forgot  what  took  me  out  of  the 
Sea  so  early. 
50       Q. — You  wer<>  not  afraid  of  being  seized  in  188!),  were  vou? 
A.— A   little  bit. 

(i.— Then  you  left  on  that  acc<»unt?  A.— No,  I  did  not 
leave  exactly  on  that  accou.it. 

(I. — You  did  not  leave  because  it  was  bad  weather,  and  do 
not  know  why  you  did  leave?  A. — I*erhaj)s  I  wanted  to  go 
home. 

il. — Whai'  is  your  liest  reccdiection  about  5r?  A. — I  think 
I  did  want  to  . 

Q. — The  fact  is  the  sealing  was  alxnit  over?       A. — No,  sir, 
(J. — \\hy  did  you  leave?      \. — I  was  very  sorry  I  did  leavt 
when  the  vessels  came  in  with  big  catches  afterwards. 

(^._Y„ii  left  the  Sea  in  that  year  on  the  'Jnd.  of  .\ugnst  did 
vou  not?       A.— 188!).  the  25th. 

(^,_V„„  lowered  on  the  2r)th.  last?  A.— We  left  th.>  Sea 
on  tlie  2!Hh. 

Q._Ii,  1S8!)  you  said  yoiif  last  sealing  day  was  the  2.'»th.  of 
August ;  when  did  you  leave  (he  Sea?  A.— On  the  .'?Oth.  day 
of  August, 


60 


l>l 


10 


(l.iiu;;liliii   Mi'l.'Mti     rross.i 

(2. — \Vli;il  di.l  ^voii  *l()  widi  lliosc  live  dii^vs  lictwet'ii  the 
lime  thill  ^Vdii  lowt'ivil  llic  IjihI,  on  llic  '2't\h.,  iiiitl  llic  time  ^voii 
left  tlic  Sea?       A.— 1»   wiin  tliick  wciitlifr. 

(■i. — Now  iiH  yoii  ii'hcsli  yo\w  rctollcci ion,  do  ,voii  not  Ihink 
i(  was  so  (liick  wcallici'  Dial  voti  coiiM  nol  seal?  A. — Dur- 
ing; those  live  davs  ii  was  nol. 

(■i. —  Yon  canic  onl  lor  thai  reason?  A. — Nol  exact Iv  for 
tliat  reason. 

Q. — Did  ,V(ni  see  any  break  in  the  weather?  A. — Tliere 
was  a  break,  the  wind  caiiie  from  the  sonthwesl.  a  };ale. 

Q. — Yon  had  Indians.  I  believe.  Ilial  vear,  and  II  eanoes? 
A. — I  had  i;{  canoes. 

<i. — Referring  to  the  weather  for  lliose  last  live  (hi,vs  in 
Aufjnsl.  ISSIt.  von  left  on  llie  :!Otii?       .\.— Yes,  sir. 

(i.— \Vas  il   bad  weallier  that   dav"'      \.— r  don't    recollect. 

Q. — Did  .voii  not  sav  il  was  thick,  and  it  bndie  on  that  day? 
A. — "\'es.   sir. 
20       <i- — I>id  I  nov  ask  von  jiisl  now  aboni  the  ;?Olh?      A. — The 
;$Oth.  was  llie  dav  I  came  out.  the  wind,  it  was  to  the  westward 
and  lifted  llie  fo};. 

(i. — AYas  it  a  stoini.v  dav.  You  were  hove  to  a  part  of  the 
(hiy.  1  will  read  from  yonr  lofi'.  on  the  :{Olli  day  of  .\nf;ust, 
where  il  says:  •N'ery  heavy  wind,  hove  to  under  mainsail  and 
jib  4  o'clock  in  the  aft<rnoon."  Did  I  read  correctly  from 
the  1-ofi.  iia^e  lL-!>?      A.— That  is  ri;-!it. 

ii. — Now  will  yon  look  for  a  few  days  pi'ecedinfi  the  IJOtli. 
ami  a  few  days  after,  and  tell  me  if  il  was  stormy  weallier 
30    A. — It  was  nol  stress  of  weallier  that  took  me  out  because  I 
had  been  10  days  in  the  Sea  when  I  cinild  not  lower  a  boat. 

(J. — And  the  weather  was  very  nncerlaiii  in  ISSt!  and  l^Sl 
was  it  not?      .\. — Xo,  ISSC  was  an  extraordinary  fine  seas(»u. 

(2. — And  1SK7  was  line  I  sniijiose?      A. — .\  <rood  deal  of  foy. 

Q.— And  1S8!»V  A.— Take  it  all  tliroii>;h,  it  was  not  a  bad 
season. 

Q. — Have  you  }>()t  any  claim  before  this  Comniisison?  A. — 
Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Do  yon  know  llial    the  weallier  of  ISSIJ  and  1SS7  and 
1°    IS,S!»  is  a  inalter  of  imiiorlaiice  here?     .\. — 1SS7  there  was  a 
jrodd  deal  of  (on;  ISSit  was  not  liad. 

il. — Yon  have  worked  for  Mr.  Siirinji'  liave  you  nol?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Yon  arc  connected  with  Afr.  Sjirin}!  in  business  now. 
are  yon  not,  in  a  way?      A. — No.  sir. 

Q. — \Ylien  did  ^on  break  your  connection  with  !Mr.  Spring? 
A.— In  the  sprinp  of  IS!).^. 

Hook    conlaiiiiiifj    iiiemoraiidnni    of    "I'"'avoiirile's"    sealiiif; 
50   catch,  1SS7-1S!!.")  uiarki'd  No.  .">  for  ideiiliticalioii. 

The  ('ommissioiier  oil  tlie  jiait  of  Ilei'  Majesty: — This  is  just 
a  book  used  in  exaniiiial  ion. 

il. — Heferriiifi  to  pajje  eijiiit  of  that  liook  which  lias  just 
been  marked  for  id(>iiiilicalioii  as  niiiidier  live,  I  will  ask  you 
if  the  tifrures  ;iiid  llu  writinjj;  in  llie  lirsl  column  and  llie 
left  of  that  ]M}H'  are  not  in  your  liaiidwritiiiji?      A. — Xo,  sir. 

ii. — .\nd  all  llie  writing  011  that  ])a};e  is  in  the  Iiamlwriting 
of  Mr.  Charles  Sjiriiitc?       A. — "^'es,  sir. 
60        ii. — Mr.  Spriiij;  was  nol  aboard  the  "I"\ivoiirite"  in  ISSti  in 
Hehriiif;  Sea  was  he?       A. — I  cannot  tell  yon. 

Q. — lie  did  not  seal  ini  her  ri'frnlarly?      .\. — Nol  always. 

ii. — He  was  not  011  her  in  1SS(!:  was  he  in  I'.ehriiifi  Sea? 
A. — I  could  nol  tell,  I  didn't  know  the  sealiiij;  business  then. 

Q. — Do  you  not  know  tliat  Cajit.  .Mexaiider  JIcLean  had 
her  in  1SH(5. 

The  rominissioiier  on  the  ]iarf  of  the  riiited   Slates: — lie 
says  he  does  not  know,  and  that  en<ls  it. 
47 


Il    • 

1  1 

!ii1 


i.l 


il'ldilil^ 


10 


20 


30 


7i^ 
(Lniif^liliii  MclA'iiii — CrosH.) 

Q. — Ih  till'  nii'inoiaiuliiiu  in  rj-fcrciuc  to  the  "Favouiitc"  in 
l>s<)  ninnin^  tlii'<)ii(;h  Huh  Ixiok  in  ,vonr  liiintlwritin^:?  A. — 
I'roni  ]>ii^('  !)H  It)  the  nii(1(llt>  of  ptiKc  IM4,  it  is  in  tlu*  luindwrit- 
in;;  of  tii*'  matt'. 

(i. — Did  von  lit'cp  I  lie  loji  tliat  .vcar,  or  tlic  unite?  A. — 
lie  ]<(>|)t  both  tiiiH  ono  and  tlio  oiij^inal  log. 

l^. —  Now,  win  n  von  wiTc  (^ivinn  vonr  tt-Htinioiiy.  tlds  wan 
tile  nicmorandnni  book  to  wliicli  .von  referred,  was  it  not,  the 
one  for  IHH!)?     A. — Tiuit  in  the  one;  yes. 

(i.— Now,  lliis  iw  not  k' pt  l),v  yon  at  all  in  yonv  wiilinfr? 
.\. — No,  it  is  not  in  my  writint;. 

Q. — It  was  not  keitt  by  ;.  »n?  A. — No,  it  waH  not  kept  by 
ine. 

ii. — And  the  original  iof;  kept  that  year  was  not  kejtt  Ity 
yon?     A. — It   was  not  kept  by  nie  eilhei 

(I. — Who  was  the  mate  that  year?  A.~ His  name  was  Mr. 
Turner. 

II. — Is  he  in  \'ietoria?     .\. — I  c.'innot  tell  yon,  I  am  snre. 

i}. — When  was  he  last  in  \'i(loria,  do  yon  know?  .\. — I 
don't  think  he  has  bicn  here  for  tlve  or  six  years 

il. — .\nd  this  was  (he  memorandum  book  which  yon  used 
in  yoni-  direet  testimony  to  refi'esli  yotir  reeollectiou?  A. — 
It  is. 

Q. — (.'onid  you  have  f{iven  (he  catch  of  the  "Favourite"  for 
1MS!(  without  referring!:  (o  (his  book?     A. —  I  can. 

(J. — Where  did  you  }iet  this  information  from?  A. — From 
my  own. 

ii. — Where  did  you  fjet  your  own  from?  A. — Out  of  my 
own  book. 

(). — So  that  when  you  L'ave  your  testimony  you  i;"ve  it 
upon  infornuili(»n  derive<l  frcun  thiit  book  which  has  been 
identitied?     .\ — I   not  it  fi-om   this  book. 

(.i. — Did  you  (jet  it  from  this  book  that  has  been  nmrked? 
A. — That  is  a  cojty  of  tliis  on<\ 

The  Commissioner  on  the  |»ar(  of  (he  I'nited  States: — Mr. 
Witness,  which  book  was  it  you  had  before  you  from  which 
40  you  testified,  the  book  (hat  has  been  identitied  by  the  secre- 
tary, or  tlu'  book  you  have  jjot  in  your  hand? 

A.— This  is  the  book,  ISS!)  and  1800;  that  for  1887  1  picked 
out  of  that  book;  IHSIt  and  !.'<!>(»  I  took  out  of  this  book  (small 
book  in  hands  of  witness). 

(2.— 18S7  and  1880  were  all  taken  out  of  (hat,  and  by  tliat 
you  mean  the  memorandum  book  which  has  been  identitied 
here  in  your  examination?     A. — That  is  the  one. 

ii. — Now  in  1SS7  and  1SS8  the  book  you  have  }fiven  your  in- 
to f<mnation   from   is  the  memorandum —     A. — No,  sir.  not  in 
18S7  and  18S8. 

Q. — The  wi'itinn  in  this  book  whicli  has  been  marked  for 
identification  as  number  .T  iclatiufj  to  the  sealin>j;  v-iyajje  of 
the  "Favourite"  for  ISMS  is  in  (he  handwritinfj  of  the  mate, 
is  it  not?  A.— Not  for  isss,  it  is  the  handwriting  of  Mr. 
Sprinfj. 

Q.— And  for  1SH7  in  whose  handwritinjt  is  it?  A.— lu  1887 
it  is  Ml'.  Sprin(j;'s  also. 

(^ — Now  when  you  testified  relative  to  the  catches  of  1887 
and  ISSS,  did  you  obtain  your  information  from  the  entries 
made  in  this  memoi-andiim  book  which  has  been  marked  as 
number  .">  for  i<lenliticalion,  and  which  is  not  in  your  liand 
writing?  A.— For  1887  and  18SS.  I  have  }jot  another  book 
for  18S7  that  is  not  here. 

(i. —  ;?ut  today  could  you  have  fjiven  it  wilhouf  this  book? 
A. — The  numlier  of  seals? 

Q.— Yes.     A.— Yes,  I  could. 


60 


yyj 


(Liiiigliliii   .Mrl,c(iii — ("roHH  ) 

Q.— And   for   ISSM  the  huiiiImt  of     wfiilN?     A.— lSMt<,     uot 
willioiit  Hint  liook. 
(I. — And  von  conld  linvr  nivcn  ISS7  diiv  l>v  dn.v  willionl  (liis 


hook' 


A.— N 


O,    HII 


t^. — Now  let  UN  see  the  nii'inoi'iiiidiini  linoU  iiH  to  wliicli  von 
Niiy  von  rcfcrr-cd,  to  >;ivt'  voiii-  testimony  nhonl  ISS'.l  nnd  IS!Hi? 
A. —  ISM!)  was  takfii  onl  of  tlint  in  tin-  niiilt-'s  liandwritin^, 
lo   and  18!K)  Is  my  own  hand  writ  in;;. 

(J. — Is  tliis  hist  nifniorandniii  hook  whirii  I  iiavc  sliown 
you  and  which  is  not  marked  for  identification,  merely  u 
copy  of  the  one  marked  No.  ."  foi'  i(hMititi<'ation,  so  fai-  as  tlie 
years  IMS!)  and  1N!K»  are  concerned?      A.— All  except  ISIMI. 


(i.— IJiit   ISSIt  is  coiiied  from  that  hook 
hnt  it  is  in  iiiy  handwiitin^. 


A.— It  i^ 


)pii'd. 


(I. — Now    without    this   little   hook    which    is   not    marked, 
conld  ycui   have  «;iven  yonr  testimony  ahont    the  years   IMS!» 
and  1H!H»?     A.— I  conld  tell  yon  the  total  catches. 
20       (i. — IJiit  yon  conld  not  detail  them?     A. — Not  day  hy  day. 

H- — And  that  was  hascd  entirely  upon  the  information  con- 
tained in  the  l)o<tk  which  has  heeii  marked  as  nnmher  o?  .\. 
— Yes.  sir. 

Q. — And  this  little  Ixtok  hei'(>  is  copied  from  niimher  5  so 
that  that  does  not  enter  int(»  it  at  all?     .\. — It  is. 

Q. — This  last  memornndnni  hook  which  we  have  heen  talk- 
ing' ahont  does  not  contain  an  entry  which  w;is  made  in  t)ie 
years  18,sn  .and  1800,  does  it?  A.— T  could  ^'ive  the  daily 
catches — 

'  Q. — Can  yon  answer  that  question  whether  those  figures 

wore  written  in  there  in  1880  or  1800?      A. — No,  sir. 

(The  last  book  referred  to,  marked  nunilier  six  for  identifi- 
cation.) 

Q. — This  book  which  has  been  marked  for  indentitlcation 
number  six,  above  referred  to,  I  will  ask  yon  if  it  is  the  book 
which  yon  stated  a  moment  apo  you  jtot  yonr  information  from 
in  regard  to  the  years  1880  and  ISOt)?  A.— This  book? 
"^^  Q. — What  was  that  book  yon  had  in  your  hand  witness? 
A. — That  is  what  I  call  the  sealing'  hook. 

(|._The  sealing  hook  for  what?  A.— IS80,  1,S!)0,  18!»1,  18!»2, 
180:{,  and  I  think  1804. 

Q. — The  years  18S!)  and  ISitO  are  the  only  ones  we  are  con- 
cerned in.  Show  me  the  jia^cs  contaiuinK  the  memoranda  re- 
lating to  those  two  years.  Mr.  Siiiin^'  made  the  most  of 
those  entries  in  the  Imok  from  which  yon  have  been  testifying 
did  he  not?  A.— All  of  the  season  of  1888  in  MehriuK  Sea. 
5c  Q. — Did  Mr.  Si)rinK  give  yon  that  book,  has  it  been  in  your 
]>oss"ssion  right  ahmg?  A.— It  has  been  in  my  possession 
right  along. 

Q. — And  Mr.  Spring  is  largely  interested  in  a  number  (jf 
these  claims  before  the  Commission,  is  he  not?  A. — I  don't 
know. 

Q._Yon  don't  know?      A.— I  have  heard  he  was. 

Q._You  have  stated  that  yon  sealed  to  the  westward  of  the 
islands,  the  Pribyloft'  Islands,  in  one  year,  and  did  uot  seal 
Co   to  the  eastward'/     A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q._Yoii  sealed  iu  everv  direction  from  the  islands  did  you 
not  at  various  times?  A.— Sometimes.  Never  to  the  east- 
ward; I  never  sealed  to  the  eastward  of  tli(>  islands. 

Q._P„  you  know  what  seals  feed  upon! 
tell;  various  things. 

Q.—IIave  yon  not  found  food  in  their  stomachs  when  they 
were  opened"?      A.— I  have  at  times. 


A. — I    cannot 


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23  WEST  MAIN  STREET 

WEBSTER,  N.Y.  14SS0 

(716)  873-4503 


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(liiiiiglilin  MrL^Min — (*ruH8,) 

Q. — It  is  flsh  is  it  hot?      A. — Fiah  niid  worms  of  all  kinds. 

il. — And  tlipy  follow  their  feed  into  the  sen  do  they  not? 
A. — I  suppose  they  do. 

Q. — .\nd  their  fwd  moves  from  phu'c  to  place?  A. — That 
I  cannot  tell  you. 

Q. — Are  there  banks  of  tlsh  in  ItehrinK  Sea  that  are  p«'r- 
nianent?    A. — Thei*e  are  banks  marked  on   the  charts  that 
,Q  are  p<'nnanent,  sand  banks. 

Q. — Are  there  banks  of  flsh  that  are  |M>rnianent  in  BehrinK 
8eu?      A.— Not  that  I  know  of. 

Q. — When  you  come  to  look  for  seals  you  do  not  look  for 
any  pnrtlcnl.ir  position  on  the  chart  do  you?  A. — Well,  we 
net  around  the  edge  of  the  bank. 

Q. — Are  there  alweys  flsh  around  these  sandbanks?  \. — 
1  never  tried  to  Hsh  there;  we  see  flsh  at  times  jumping  in  the 
water. 

Q. — Does  the  weaiher  have  nnythinR  to  do  with  the  num- 
20  Iht  of  seals  that  a  b«»at  will  take  in  a  season?      A. — .\  >j""d 
deal;  it  has  nearly  all  to  do  with  it. 

Q. — And  the  nkill  of  the  hunters  has  soinethiuK  to  do  with 
it?      A. — Yes,  ;t  has  something  to  do  with  it. 

Q._A  good  deal  to  do  with  it,  has  it  not?  A.— It  has  not 
Rot  so  much  to  do  with  It  as  the  weather. 

Q. — In  1889.  Oaptaln  McLean,  were  you  acqiuiinted  with  the 
sealing  fleet  that  went  out  of  the  harbour  of  Victoria?  A.— 
I  know  pretty  nearly  all  of  them. 

Q.— And  with  the  catch  of  the  vessels?      A.— No,  I  could 
3°   not  tell  you  the  catches. 

Q.— Was  the  "Mary  Taylor"  out  of  this  port  in  188ft?  A.— 
I  think  she  was. 

q._T1m'  "Theresa?"      A.— Yes.  sir. 

Q._The  "Annie  C.  Moore?"       A.— Yt's,  sir. 

Q._The  "Lillie?"  A.— I  don't  know  whethe-  the  "Lillie" 
Avas.      She  was  lost  in  1880  or  18ft0,  I  think. 

Q.— Well,  if  her  name  was  in  the  rustom's  House  reimrts 
in  1880  It  was  probably  since?      A.— She  had  \m>n  lost  since. 
Q       Q.— And  the  "reni'lop<'?'      A.— Yes.  she  was  out. 

Q.— And  the  other  "Lillie,"  was  she  out  in  1880?  A.— Yes, 
sir. 

Q_The  "Sapphire?"       A.— The  "Sapphire." 

Q._The  '-.Vurora?"       .\.— Yes.  sir. 

Q._The  "Juanita?"      A.— I  think  so. 

Q._The  "Ariel?"      A.— I  think  so. 

Q._The  "Kate?"      A.— The  "Kate"  was. 

Q._The  "Favourite."  of  course.      The  "Maggie  Mac?"      A. 
Yes. 
50       Q.— "W.  P.  Sayward?"      A.— Yes. 

a— The  "Minnie"?    A.- Yes. 

Q.— "M«»untaln  Thief"?     A.— Oould  not  sJiy. 

(2_"Wanderer"?     A.— Yes. 

Q.— "Hlack  Diamond"?    A.— Yes. 

y.— "  Heatrice"?     A  .—Yes. 

Q.— The  "Winnifnd"?    A— Yes. 

(i.— The  "Sierni"?     A.— I  <ould  n<»t  sjiy. 

Mr.  Kodwell: — Is  it  a  question  as  to  whether  these  were  in 
60  the  S«»a. 

Mr.  Warren: — No,  cleared  from  Victoria. 

Q. — The  most  of  those  vessels  went  into  Itehring  Sea  that 
year,  did  they  not?    A.— I  could  not  say. 

Q. — You  do  not  know  whether  they  did  or  n«>t?  A. — After 
I  left  Victoria  I  amy  not  we  them  until  I  come  back. 

Q. — Do  you  know  the  vessels  that  cleared  from  Sun  Fran- 
cisco or  American  pt^rls  in  1880?    A.— I  do  not. 


741 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


^Ltiiigliliii  McLciiii — CroMH.) 

Q. — There  weit  u  uiiuibei-  of  tlieiii?  A. — I  could  nut  tell 
yon  how  many. 

Q. — There  wuh  u  niinilM'r,  whh  there  not?  A. — I  t-ould  not 
tell  of  one. 

Q. — Can  yon  tell  the  cateheH  in  that  vear  1885>,  except  your 
o*n?  A.— I  think  I  can  tell  the  "VV.  I'.  Sayward's"  catch;  It 
waH  Honie where  about  2,(HM);  I  won't  b<>  poHitive. 

Q.— Was  Captain  Hpring  out  on  the  "Favourite"  in  1887? 
A. — No,  sir. 

Q.— In  1888??    A.— VeH,  Hir. 

(i.— <  'aptain  HpriuK  wan  with  you  in  1888?    A.— Yes,  sir. 

ii. — (JharleH  Hprinji?    A. — ('luirleg  Hprinf;. 

Q.— What  wa8  he  doinjc  al)out  tlie  boat?  A. — lie  went  out 
on  a  pleatinn;  trip. 

Q. — You  mean  to  Hay  that  Captain  Hprin^  went  up  on  your 
boat  in  1888  for  a  Hhort  trip,  and  Htill  you  did  not  Icnow  that 
he  WBH  IntereHted  in  them*  elainiH  here?  A. — I  do  not  queH- 
tion  hig  object  in  Koin^  up,  that  watt  hig  buBinefw.  I  was 
worl(inK  for  Charley  WprinK,  and  he  was  owner  of  the  ship  at 
the  time. 

Q. — Did  he  himt?    A. — ^'"nietimes. 

Q.— You  bad  very  good  huniers  in  1887,  had  you  not?  A. 
— Not  very  good. 

Q. — Anything  unuHual  about  their  Hkill?  A. — They  were 
all  new  men,  they  did  not  know  very  ninrh  about  it. 

Q. — IIow  many  yearn  bad  Hugliing  iMt'n  out,  or  wan  that 
liif)  first  trip?  A.— Tliat  was  his  first  trip  to  Behring  Sea 
to  my  knowhnlge. 

Q. — He  had  iMtm  out  on  the  coast  b(>fore  and  had  had  con- 
siderable exp«'rience?  A. — He  was  In  tlie  "Favourite"  on 
the  coant  that  same  year. 

Q. — Had  he  been  out  Iwfon'  that?  .\. — I  could  not  tell 
you,  it  was  the  first  year  tliat  I  know  of. 

Q. — (leorge  Dislnow  was  on  tlie  "Favourite"  in  1887,  was 
he?     A.— Yes,  sir. 

(J. — Was  he  a  new  man?    A. — Yes.  sir. 

ii- — FirBt  year  out?  A. — Fii-st  year  in  Itehring  Rea,  I 
think,  he  was  out  on  the  coast  before,  I  couldn't  say,  I  think 
it  was  the  first  year. 

Q. — They  used  both  siM>ar«*  and  guns  in  1888?  A. — Yes, 
sir,  both  spears  and  guns. 

Q.— 1885>?     A.— Yes,  sir,  (he  same. 

Q.— They  had  better  guns  in  188!>  tluMi  in  1888?  A.— In 
1889  they  had  some  breech  loading  guns  and  some  muK/.Ie- 
loading  guns. 

Q. — About  the  s(>als  that  you  killed.  You  have  embraced 
in  your  testimony  as  to  your  catch  of  seals,  the  total  number? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  have  embrat-ed  hair  seals  in  vour  total,  have  vou 
not?    A.— No,  sir. 

Q. — No  hair  seals?    A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — What  do  you  call  wigs?    A. — Wigs  are  a  seal. 

Q. — What  is  a  wig?  A. — It  is  a  male  seal,  a  very  large 
one. 

Q. — Did  you  embrace  wigs?    A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q. — Are  tliey  good  fur?    A. — It  is  all  g«MMl  except  around 
the  hi*nd  and  neck. 

Q. — They  are  not  quite  as  large  as  the  long  or  extra  long? 
A. — They  are  extra  larg,-. 

Q. — Are  they  as  good  fur,  and  do  they  demand  as  high  a 
price  as  what  you  call  the  extra  long?  A. — They  demand 
just  as  good  a  price. 

Q.— And  what  is  the  extra  long  seal?    A.— /ixtra  large? 


m 


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(Lniifililiii  Mi'l.c'iiit — fVoHS.) 

(J.— Vt'H,  «'X(ra  liirg<'?  A.— That  In  (lie  largOBt  mIw  witluiiit 
cuuiitin{r  tlu'iii  ill  aH  a  wig. 

Q.— Now  flu*  wigH  and  extra  large  bring  about  f...  Hanic 
pric**,  do  tlu'3'  not?     A. — Yes. 

Q.— They  bring  the  higliest  price  for  fur  seals?      A.— Not 
at  all  times;  some  years  they  do  in  Loudon,  and  sonietinieH 
not. 
,Q       Q.— You  have  the  wig  extra  large,  and  large;  what  do  you 
eall  the  large  seal?      A.— Well,  the  large  seal. 

<).— That  is  the  designation  is  it?  A.~It  is  a  little  above 
the  medium  in  size. 

Q. — Between  that  and  tl.e  very  large?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

(j.— Then  you  have  Uie  medium  and  tlie  middling?  A.— 
The  middling  is  between  the  medium  and  the  large. 

Q.— What  is  the  medium?  A.— It  is  between  a  pup  and  a 
little  larger  than  that  one. 

(i. — Now  will  you  give  me  the  kind  of  pups  among  seals  that 
you  catch?  A.— The  brown  pup,  tlie  grey  pup,  and  the  black 
pup. 

ii- — Tluw  kinds  of  pups.  Is  their  fur  worth  as  much  as 
large  seals?  A. — No,  sir;  the  brown  pup  is  worth  consider- 
able. 

Q- — Tliey  are  worth  a  great  deal  less  are  they  not,  for  one 
reason,  because  there  is  less  hide?  A. — The  brown  is  good 
fur  but  it  is  small. 

H. — Now.  in  your  catch  of  seals  that  you  have  given,  have 
you  included  all  tlie  pups  that  you  caught?      A. — Yes. 
30       U- — The  grey,  brown  and  black,  are  in  your  total  catch? 
A. — We  never  gel  any  black;  what  we  call  black  pups  are  on 
shore;  I  have  seen  them  iii  the  water. 

Q. — Hut  if  you  got  any  black  pups  you  have  includ«>d  them, 
have  you  not?      A. — No,  I  would  not  take  them. 

y. — Are  y<»u  positive  about  that?      A -:— Y'es,  sir. 

Q. — You  took  the  grey  jiups  and  the  brown  ones?  A. — 
Brown,  yes. 

Q. — Y«iu  have  included  those  in  the  total  catch  you  have 
given?      A. — Yes,  sir. 
40       Q. — You  have  included  the  wigs,  large,  extra  large,  mediuis. 
and  middling?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — .\nd  the  enuill,  thai  is  another  designation  is  it  not? 
A.— Small. 

Q. — A  small  seal,  a  wig,  an  extra  larije.  large,  meiliiim.  and 
middling,  besides  the  pups?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  you  have  included  all  of  those  in  the  total  catches, 
have  you  not?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Sir  O.  H.  Tui»i)er: — Did  he  sav  "medium"  in  the  chissiflca- 
Sc  *'""? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Yes,  medium.  (To  witness.)  You  ni-e 
(|uite  sure  you  did  not  embrace  hair  seals  when  you  took  them 
in  ytuir  total  catches?  \. — No,  we  did  not  pay  the  hunters 
for  them. 

Q. — You  have  given  ycuir  testimony  today  as  to  tlu'  total 
(tatdies  of  seal.s?      A. — Not  that  I  am  aware  of. 

Q. — As  my  learned  friend  says,  will  you  swear  that  you 
have  not  included  hair  seals  in  your  total  catch?  A. — No, 
60  sir. 


Sir  (3.  H.  Tapper  :- 
I  disown  It. 


-That  is  your  own  phrase,  and  not  mine. 


Mr.  Dickinson: — I  hear  it  here  every  day.  Your  phrase  is: 
"Will  you  say  it  on  your  oaih?"  but  I  pn'fer  to  say  (to  wit- 
ness:) Will  you  swear  tliat  you  do  not  embrace  hair  8«>Jils 
in  your  total  catches'  A. — I'did  swear  it  to  the  Iwst  of  my 
knowledge. 


20 


iO 


743 
(LiiiiKlin   Mrlicmi— <'rot«— Ucilin-ct.) 

<i.— Will  yoH  uwfiu'  (hat  ^ou  did  uol  t'iiil»nici>  hail-  hwiIh? 
A. — My  mate  Iuih  iiuthing  to  do  with  it. 

Q. — But  he  kept  your  log  and  your  eateh?  A. — I  counted 
the  Heals  and  not  th«^  mate,  I  told  him  the  nuniWi-  of  BeaU 
tiiHt  eame  on  b«»nrd,  and  he  entered  that  in  his  log.  I  counted 
the  HealH  when  they  came  over  the  rail. 

Q. — You  Kwear  that  no  hair  uealH  were  ever  included?  A. — 
,0  No,  sir. 

ti. — But  the  pups  always  were?      A. — The  pups. 

Q. — Will  you  swear  that  black  pups  were  not  taken  and  in- 
cluded?     A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — You  could  not  swear  to  that?      A. — No,  s'r. 

Q. — You  swear  that  no  black  pups  were  included?  A. — No 
black  pups. 

Q. — But  grey  and  brown  pups  were?  A. — Yes,  grey  and 
brown. 

Q. — And  medium,  and  middling,  and  small  seals  were  in- 
cluded with  the  wigs  and  extra  large  seals  and  large  seals 
in  your  total  catches?  A. — All  included  with  the  exception 
of  the  black  pups. 

Re-direct  exuuiiuatiou  by  Mr.  Beique: 

Q. — Do  you  remember  if  you  took  any  hair  seals  in  Behring 
8ea?      A. — Yes,  sir,  1  have  taken  one  or  two. 

y. — Not  more  than  two?  A. — I  would  not  be  positive;  but 
anyhow  they  would  be  very  few. 

y. — There  are  very  few  in  Behring  Hea,  I  understand?  A. 
— Very  few. 

ti. — Did  you  lake  any  grey  pups  in  Behring  Sea?  A. — 1 
might  have  taken  one  or  two  jterhups  since  I  have  been  go- 
ing out  there. 

y. — They  are  very  few  in  Behring  Kea  also?  A. — Very 
few,  we  got  sonic  of  them  on  the  coast. 

Q. — \  ery  few  of  them  are  found  in  Behring  Sea?  A. — 
Very  few,  1  might  have  caught  one. 

Q. — Had  you  any  quantity  of  the  other  pups?  A. — No, 
^o  not  many  sir. 

t^. — How  were  the  skins  sold  as  a  rule.  Did  you  sell  any 
skins  in  these  years,  or  do  you  know  what  the  sales  of  tho 
skins  were  that  were  «aught  in  1887,  \HHH  or  1M8!>?  A.— No, 
sir. 

Q. — It  did  not  come  within  your  department?  A. — No, 
sir. 

Q. — You  had  nothing  to  tlo  with  the  sales?  A. — I  had 
nothing  to  do  with  them. 

Q. — You  have  spoken  as  to  the  price  or  value  of  the  "wigs;" 
have  you  any  iKTsonal  knowledge  as  to  this.  Had  you  oc- 
casion t(»  sell  fliem  yourself?      .\. —  I  did  last  year. 

Q. — And  it  is  froni  that  knowledge  you  hav«'  spoken?  A. 
— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  only  of  last  year?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

(|. — Will  you  say  what  i«irt  of  the  b«M»k  marked  No.  5  for 
identitlcation  is  in  your  handwriting?  A. — From  page  '2, 
dattnl  April,  1K!M».  to  page  17!». 

Q. — And  i»art  of  the  siibsequent  entries  in  1S!H  an*  in  your 
handwi-iting  also?    A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q.-:-Mogt  of  it  is  in  ycmr  handwriting?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — What 
dat«»8  does  the  lM>ok  include? 

Mr.  Beique:— It  is  from  1887  to  18rtr.. 

Q. — The  entries  previous  to  page  152  are  partly  in  the 
handwriting  of  Mr.  Spring?  A.— Yes.  sir,  partly  iii  the  hand< 
wHting  of  Mr.  Spring. 


50 


r^ 


If 


'<iil 


nl 


III 


m 


MM' 


I  iiiil  I 


!ii; 


^  n 


'l|)|L 


30 


744 

(l^iiiiKlilin   McLt'iin — K<'  dire*-*.) 

Q. — And  imiily  in  iIm-  liiiii<lwHtin^'  of  wlio  «'In«'?  A.— Mr. 
TurniT.  (Im'  nitil<>. 

Y. — IIiiH  tln'  hook  rfniainod  in  yonr  ]M)HH('HHion  from  yt'urto 
.v«'nr.  np  Kt  (his  (iinr?     A. — V<'h,  hIi-.  Hinti-  I  join«Ml  (lie  Hlii|). 

Q. — It   i»  the  Hliip'K  lojj,  Ih  i(?     A. — No,  h\v. 

(}.— Wlio  kept  till'  HJiip'H  iofi?     A.— Tilt'  iiiiitr. 

(j.— WiiH  liny  <'nti-y  iiiihIi>  in  tin*  HliipV  lo^  Itook  of  tin-  niiiii 
10  Ih'I"  of  hciiIh  tiikcn  dnily?  A. —  I  ciiniiot  nay.  not  in  nil  of  tlii* 
bookM,  iMMiinHi'  tlit'y  IdkI  ililfcrt'iif  iiiiit*'H.  It  is  vory  Holtloni  T 
look  ovci'  tlifir  lo^;. 

(/. — I>o  yon  know  wlifir  tlio  hIiIp'h  Uta  liookH  iiro  for  il.c 
viirioiiH  yen  is?     A. — Yes.  sir. 

ii. — VNIu'i-c  iir<'  tlit-y?     \. — TIh-v  iirc  on  honnl  tlic  ship. 

C} — Will  yon  hrtii^f  llicin  Ihtc  when  yon  conic  hack?  .\. — 
Yes.  sir. 

Q.— -TTow  were  all  tlic  entries  made  in  tliis  book  niarkc<l 
"No.  5  for  idenliftcation?"  Were  tlicy  made  from  day  to  day, 
20  or  only  at   dilTcrcnf  times?     .\. — Kvery  day. 

Mr.  \YaiTen: — Wliat  yesir  do  yon  mean,  Mr.  Heiipic,  in  iss", 

ISHH  or  1SS!>? 

The  <^omniisH>oner  on  the  part  of  the  TTiiited  States:— 
There  must  be  some  misunderstanding;  about  that,  pi-rliaps 
yonr  i|nestion  is  not  (|nite  what  y«ni  intended. 

My  Mr.  Iteiijiie: 

(2. — Whieli  part  of  the  entries  were  made  frmii  day  t'l  day 
in  this  bo«tk  marked  "No.  .'»  for  ideiititieation"?  A. — Rvny 
day's  work  is  entere<l.  and  is  v:<'nerally  worked  out  in  the 
evening,  to-morrow's  work  is  worked  (nit  day  after  day  rifflit 
along  until  the  end  of  the  season. 

The  <'oiiimissiimer  on  the  part  <if  the  Fnited  States: — I>ti 
yon  mean  tlial  tliis  |iarti<iihir  book  was  kept  that  way? 

The  \Vitness:--All  the  books. 

The  Commissioner  on  tlie  part  of  the  United  Slates: — llul 
he  in  iiskiii<;  ab(nit  tliis  |iarti<nlar  book? 

The  Witness- — This  book  was  kept  the  same  way. 

Mr.  Mei<|ue: — This  book  was  ke|)t  from  day  to  day. 

The  ('ommissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majt'sty: — Is  that 
the  original  book  kept  on  board  tlii'  ship,  and  entered  from 
day  to  day.  or  is  it  a  Itook  copietl  from  siieh  a  book? 

The  Witness: — This  is  a  book  ke|»t  on  board,  and  worked 
out  from  day  to  <lay. 

Mr.  Warren:—  -May  the  Court  please,  there  is  a  niisnnder- 
standing  about  that  beeaiise  part  of  it  is  lopied  from  other 
IxMiks. 

The  Comniissioner  on  the  jiart  of  tlie  United  States: — You 
testify  th::l  |>art  of  it  was  kept  and  ]>art  copied  from  the  log 
of  ISSO. 

|{y  Mr.  ISei<|ne: 

ii. — l»oes  this  apply  to  tlie  entries  made  by  Mr.  Sjirinfi;.  and 
wliieh  are  also  in  this  book?  A. — That  was  ('0|»ied  some  time 
in.  I  think.  1SS7  or  IHMS. 

(2. — Indiciite  what  page.     .\. — Page  S. 

Q.— It  was  eoj.ied  some  lime  in  1HS7  or  ISStS?  A.— Yes.  but 
I  would  not  lie  |Mtsitive  as  tii  the  year. 

(i.— It  was  either  in  1SS7  or  1SSS?  A.— It  niiglit  be  tlie 
.'^'ear  .Mr.  Spring  was  willi  the  boat. 


4'> 


50 


60 


20 


745 
(Laiiuliliii  Mcl.»'nii— l{«'<linTt.) 

(2.— Will  ,v(Mi  luiik  III  iiiifjcH  "i.  (»  and  7.  Wfif  llit-y  copu'il? 
A. — Kniiit'  (if  tliiH  Ih  ill  Mr.  S|M-iiiK'H  liiiiiilwritiii);.  iiiul  tlii>n> 
tiiv  Hoiiu-  tiiiiiKH  ill  il  (litit  dtH'H  not  ri-fcr  to  HcnliiiK  iit  all;  it 
iM  nut  in  in.v  liaiiilwrilinK- 

(i. — Yon  iann«it  K|K-ak  an  to  tlicw  pa^cM?  A. —  I  cannot 
H|irak  for  tlicni. 

Q. — Tlu'U  tlio  liook  |iro|M'r  hi-KinH  at  iiajjc  1(»  when  tin-  wai- 
inp  vo.vanf  bt'ijins?    A. — Vcs,  I  «'aii  nndiTlako  to  sa.v  from 

tluT*'. 

ii. — Ir:  il  on  pap*  10?  A. — Ych,  pa^c  10.  TIiIh  Ik  a  kind  «»r 
inventory  Iu'IH',  and  1  do  iiol  know  anytliiiit;  at  all  about  it. 
I  do  not  know  wIk-ii  Mr.  Spring;  wrol(>  that  <lown — that  ih 
pa};<'H  11,  15,  Hi  and  17.  I'ap-H  <>7  and  !i^<,  tli:it  is  soiiiftliinK 
rt'foiTinp  to  H«>aliii(;  loo.  Iiiit  I  do  not  know  what  il  is.  I'af;<'H 
!>!.  !>'-',  tK(.  tU.  ori,  <Mi  and  'M.  is  anollicr  invt-iitoiy. 

(^ — What  octiiHion  had  you  to  look  at  this  liook  as  it  was 
k«'pt  in  1SS7.  ISSS.  I.ssos'.id  ISito?  a.— Wfli.  I  <<»pi<'d  it  into 
that  small  nM-iuoiiindiiiii  hook  tliat  1  have  lu'r**  to  save  tinit* 
and  troiibh',  so  that  I  rould  kcI  at  Ihf  dat<-s  ipiickfr. 

(j. — Von  did  not  iindcrHtand  iiiy  (picstion.  I  ask  you,  what 
(KTtision  had  you  on  tiu-  vvsscl  of  lo(dviiif;  at  this  book  as  it: 
was  kept  in  1XS7  and  the  ftdlowinp  ycai-s?  .\. — I  havo  al- 
ways looked  after  this  book,  and  I  p'lierally  ttdd  tlieiii  what 
to  put  in  this  book,  and  the  stale  of  the  weather  and  my  jio- 
sition.  When  I  took  the  itosilion  at  noon  they  were  entenHl 
in  tills  book  and  I  he  mate  works  out  ills  own  position  gener- 
ally. 

(i. — I  want  to  knew  whether  it  was  kept  uiub-r  your  din'e- 
tion?     A. — I'nder  my  din  rtioii. 

<i. — And  supervision?     A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — \ow  as  to  the  book  marked  "Xo.  0  ftu"  identitJcation." 
When  did  you  make  eiilries  in  this  Intok?     A. — .\  few  days 

<i. — For  what  purpose?  .\. — So  as  T  e«»uld  jjet  out  dates 
(pii«'k«'r  than  by  handling  this  larjte  book. 

Q. — Now  as  to  the  other  book  wi:irli  you  have  in  your  pos- 

^Q  session,  and  to  which  yon  h;>.ve  referred;   it  refers  only  to  1880. 

IXIH)  and  the  following  years,  not  to  any  jtrevi«MiH  y«'ars?     .\. 

—This  jiarl  here  refers' to  IMS!),  and  this  part  refers  t<»  IHtlO 

on  the  northern  coast,  but  not  in  Itehring  Sea. 

(i. — Aiv  the  entries  in  your  handwriting  in  this  book  mark- 
ed "N'o.  fi  for  ileiitillcatiim"?  A. — S<Miie  of  these  are  in  Mr. 
Spring's  handwriting. 

<i. — Sign  your  name  on  the  jiage  on  which  your  handwriting 
commences.     .\. —  I  have  sijjiied  il. 

50       Mr.  Rei<|ue: — 1  desire  to  have  this  book  marked  ''for  identl- 
tl  cation." 


30 


.'Ji 
■M 

III 
''if 


I . 

!   1 


[I! 


^n 


(Tlw  book  was  marked  Xo.  7  for  identification.) 

ii. — .Mso  fnrlher  on  in  1S)H  and  subseipient  years  there 
are  some  portions  of  it  thai  ale  not  in  your  handwriting?     A. 

— Y«'H. 

Q. — Independently  of  this  book,  had  yon  a  recollection  of 
the  total  numlK'r  of  seals  that  you  caught  in  Hehring  Sen? 
^o   .\. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Fr<uii  year  to  year?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

ii. — I>oes  the  number  of  canoes  a|))M-ar  in  the  book  Xo.  5 
from  year  to  year?     .\. — Xo,  sir. 

Q. — The  log  book.  1  suppose,  would  show  I  lie  number  of 
canoes?  \. — \ot  th.Tl  log  book,  but  the  log  book  last  year 
would. 

(J. — The  ship's  log  book  wmild  show?     A. — I  think  it  will. 


■    :  '■ 


■\ 


ITTI 


:!lf; 


m 


I 


746 

(Liiiiplilin    McLriin — lliMlircfl — Kc  crnsH— Ur  din-cf.) 

ii. — I  think  oiict'  ,voii  iiuMitioiuHl  12  «-iiii<m>h  in  IHSU,  anil  I 
tliink  iiIho.vou  lmvt>  nit'nlioncd  11  nintH'H  in  IMS!)?  A. — Tlicro 
w«'n'  11  ninm'H  in  ISHIK 

Q.— Wjih  it  11  or  12?    A.— 11. 

Q.— In  IHHH  what  van  tap  nnmhor?  A.— In  18H8  it 
w)iH  l.'<,  bnt  I  had  pni«*tirall,v  inl.v  tlu'  iih«>  of  12,  for  a  man 
dipd  on  board  on  the  way  up  and  w«'  wiTe  nhort  a  liand.  I 
10  had  l.'t  ninu4>H  on  board. 

Re-(*roHH-(>xamination  by  Mr.  Warren: 

Q. — Did  you  brinj?  thiH  book,  No.  5,  witli  you  to-day?  A.— 
Yt'8,  Hlr. 

Q. — Vou  hav«'  liad  it  in  your  poHH«>H8ion  for  alnumt  a'  w»'«'k 
or  t»'n  days?    A.— Not  alwayH. 

Q.— Where  Iuih  it  bwn?  A.— It  Iuih  bi'iMi  at  Mr.  RodwellV 
for  a  while. 

20  Mr.  Peters:— You  may  take  it  for  jjrantiMl  with  regard  to 
all  of  these  books,  we  Imve  taken  poss<>SHion  of  all  of  them 
that  we  eould  gvt. 

Mr.  IHckinwHi:— Oh,  yes.  Tlu*  questiim  did  not  refer  to 
anything  like  that. 


30 


i^il 


40 


|i|,|::. 


50 


60 


Redirect  examinati«>n  of  LauKiilin  M«'I^>nn  was  continued 
Dee.  22,  IWMJ,  by  Mr.  «ei(iue. 

Q. — Will  you  say  what  logs  you  now  produce?  A. — The 
logs  for  1887,  1888,  1889  and  1890. 

(i. — For  what  vessel?      A. — For  the  "Favourite." 

Q. — Are  they  the  ship's  logs?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — iiy  whom  was  this  log  kept  for  1887?  A. — It  was  keyt 
by  myself. 

Q. — Did  you  enter,  in  the  ship's  log  for  1887,  the  seals  as 
they  were  caught?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  keep  any  other  book  in  which  you  kept  the 
daily  catch?      A. — Yts,  sir. 

Q. — Have  you  got  that  book  here?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Will  you  produce  it?      A. — It  is  flli'd  in  court. 

Q. — You  kept  this  book  '>iark«d  "No.  11  for  identification" 
from  day  to  day  on  the  ves<erf      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  prepare  fr<»i>  tiuit  book  marked,  "No.  11,  for 
identiflcation,"  a  8tat«>ment  o\  the  daily  catch-      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Will  you  give  it  to  me  jt'ease?  A. — Yes,  sir.  It  com- 
mences in  June  and  is  as  f«)lio\'s:  On  .June  Sth,  7;  on  June 
20tli,  1;  on  July  Sth,  4;  on  July  7th,  12;  on  July  Sth,  12;  on 
July  10th,  1;  on  July  11th.  25;  on  July  12th,  lit;  on  July  13tb. 
54;  on  July  15th,  13*;  on  July  16th,  41  ;'on  July  17th,  46;  on  Jul* 
18th,  68;  on  Julv  21st,  60;  on  Julv  22nd,  62;  <»n  July  2:<rd,  5; 
on  July  24th,  10;  on  July  iT.th,  170;  on  July  26th,  9;  on  July 
29th,  4;  on  July  'Mnf,  4.  '  On  August  1st,  5i»:  on  August  2nd, 
1;  on  August  3rd,  85;  on  August  4th,  29;  on  August  5th,  83; 
on  August  (ith,  105;  on  August  8tli,  108;  on  August  9tli.  109; 
on  .\ugust  Kith,  2;  on  August  12th,  .'U;  on  .\ugust  14<h.  I; 
on  August  15tli,  103;  on  August  17th.  10;  on  August  18th,  26; 
on  August  Iflth,  147;  on  August  20th,  3;  on  August  22nd,  14; 
on  August  23rd.  57;  on  August  24th,  16:  on  August  25th,  122; 
on  August  26th,  140;  on  August  27th,  19. 

Q.— What  is  the  total?      A.— The  total  is  1,878. 

Q.— All  got  in  Rehring  Sea?  A.— No.  sir,  fourteen  of 
them  were  caught  outside  of  Behring  Ren,  there  was  1,864  in- 
side the  Sea. 


lo 


747 
iLiMiffliliii  .Mt-Lfiiii — Kt'  ilirt'i't.) 

Q. — I  HiipiHmc  tlioHi'  14  hciiIm  w«'r<>  fiiiiKlit  ht'torc  llii>  t\uy» 
yuH  iiifiitioiH'd?  A. — riitil  July  8(h,  I  eiitcrt'd  ItehriiiK  Ht>a 
on  July  Utii. 

Q. — WliJit  uu!HlH<r  of  hoatH  hiul  yon  on  Uh'  "FavonrUc"  in 
1HN7?     A. — I  li.ui  HJx  r4>Kulur  liunlinK  boats  and  a  storn  ImuiI. 

Q. — I  lM'li«'v«>  yon  miUl  yt'HtcnIay  that  tht*  Htt-rn  iHtat  was 
not  much  um-d?  A. — I  think  mIh*  Kot  42  walH  nItoKetlicr,  tin* 
ma  to  liunt4Hl  in  lior. 

CJ. — Did  yon  l»iv«  a  whit«'  rn'W?      A. — Y«'h,  bIt. 

Q. — Two  or  thr«'<'  nun  in  «'a«*h  boat?  A. — Tlim'  men  in  tin* 
n'Kulnr  hnnthiK  lioatti,  and  two  in  tin*  Htt>rn  Itoat^ 

Q. — TIow  many  nu»n  altoffi'thor?      A. — 23  or  24  ni«'n. 

Tli«  ronuniHHJonorH  twtk  rccoHH  at  I  oV-lork. 


'hi  'M 


! 


HI 


20 


30 


40 


t,0 


r>o 


Examination  of  the  witut'MH  Lnughlin  Mel^nn,  waa  ron- 
tinu(>tl  in  th<>  aftt'i-noon  of  Occ.  22,  at  half  paHt  two  o'«-lork, 
l»y  Mr.  Heique. 

Kc-diivct  «>xaiiiination  roniinui'd  Ity  Mr.  Itoiquo: 

Q.— In  18«7,  1  bt'lifve,  the  "Favourite  went  aealing  on  the 
roast  iH'fore  going  to  Itehring  Hea?      A. — VeH,  air. 

Q. — You  were  in  her  on  tlie  eoast?      A. — No,  sir. 

ti. — Now,  in  188H,  you  went  sealing  both  on  the  coast  and  in 
Kehring  Sea  on  the  "Favourite?"      A.— Yes,  sir. 

y.— Have  you  the  ship's  log  book  for  1888?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Uy  whom  was  it  kept?      \. — By  the  mate. 

<i. — What  was  his  uanie?      A. — Krrington. 

Q. — Where  is  he?  A. — He  is  in  some  part  of  England — 
Kouth  Hhields— I  think. 

Q. — Was  the  daily  eateh  entered  in  the  ship's  log  book?  A. 
— Not  in  the  ship's  log. 

Q. — Was  there  another  book  in  whieh  tlie  daily  patch  was 
kept?       A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Have  you  that  book  with  you?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Do  yon  produce  it?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — By  whon;  was  that  Itook  kept?  A. — By  myself,  most 
of  it.  Part  of  the  catch  is  tallied  up  by  Mr.  Spring,  tlie  own- 
er. 

Q. — He  wan  on  the  vessel  with  you  also  that  year?  A. — Ue 
was  on  the  vessel  with  me  in  1HS8. 

Q.— What  number  of  boats  had  you  In  18H8?  A.— I  had  11 
canoes,  and  two  boats  in  1888. 

Q. — Was  that  the  uunib<>r  you  gave  the  other  day  in  yonr 
examination?  A. — No.  sir.  I  made  a  mistake  the  other  day 
— I  think  I  said  "13  ciinoes."  while  there  was  only  13  tn  all. 

(2. — Do  you  verify  fnuii  the  book  you  kept  at  the  time  as 
to  the  number  of  boats?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q._What  cr.'w  liad  you  in  1888?  A.— I  had  22  Indians 
jiiid  eight  white  men,  including  mvself  and  the  owner,  30  in 
all. 

Q. — I  propose  now  to  ask  you  to  give  the  daily  catch.  I 
shall  ask  yon  afterwards  which  were  your  own  entri«'s.  and 
which  were  the  entries  of  Mr.  Spring.  Will  you  give  the 
dally  catch  on  the  const  fli-st?  A. — On  the  coast  the  daily 
catch  was  as  follows:  On  .Vpril  4tli.  13;  on  .\pril  titli.  12: 
on  April  8th,  2;  on  April  mh.  2(»;  on  April  12th.  25;  on  April 
13th,  21;  on  April  l»!th.  32:  on  April  18tli.  13;  on  April  2(»th, 
37;  on  April  2'st,  7. 


^IJIl 


■ .  ■ 


ri 


t 


•li' 


lO 


74« 

(LtiHKlilin  MfL«'iiii-  l{f«lir<Tt.) 

(hi  Mii.v  4lli,  :il;  oil  Mav  .'tili,  :I2;  mi  Ma.v  (illi,  1;  on  Miiv 
I2tli.  '2;  on  Mii.v  i.'iIIi,  :t;  on  Mii.v  Kltli,  :IH;  on  Ma.v  lOtli,  7;  oil 
Ma.v  i'Oth,  5;  on  Ma.v  2 1  hi.  'i. 

(Ml  .liiiM'  KMIi,  14,  on  .liiiif  I'JIli,  II);  on  .liinc  I4lli,  :tli;  on 
.Mint'  loili,  :tr>;  on  .liiiif  lOlli,  IL';  on  .liiiir  Isili,  'i;  on  .liiiic 
IIMIi.  1!);  on  .Iniic  l*iMli,  I'L';  on  .hiiii-  LMtli,  :tli;  on  .liiiii'  jrilli. 
.'Ct;  on  .luiii>  -lilli,  o. 

(Ml  .lulv  'Jiid,  2;  on  .liil.v  :trt),  2. 

(i.— Tliiit  iH  :ill  tlic  coaHt  nilili?      A.— Y»'k.  hW. 

(J.— How  niaM.v  in  all?      A— r.:,'7  in  all. 

I/. —  Will, .voii  Ha.v  iiiiw,  wiiich  of  llicsf  nrr  fioni  .voiir  own 


lallv' 


.\. — On  Jiino  irilli.  oiil  of  .'Ci   I  lalli<Ml  in  Hi,  on  ,luni> 


l!Mli.  out  of  I!).  I  lalliKi  ill  li;  on  .liin*>  'J.'i.  oiil  of  :i:t  I  liiljicil 
in  li;  on  .liinr  '.'lilli  I  lallit-il  in  '>;  on  .Inl.v  'Jnil  Mr.  Spiiii^r  lal 


M«>d. 


Tlial'H  all  I  tallicil  on  ilio  cnast. 


Hit 


H. — .\n(l  lilt'  luilaiM-c  an-  Mr.  Wprinjf'K  «'nlrii'H?      .\. — Yci 


2o  (>. — Now  will  .v«Mi  ti'ivf  llic  dail.v  calrli  in  Itfliring  Boa  in 
IMSH?  A.— (Ml  .inl.v  null.  :ri;  on  .Inl.v  fllli,  2;  on  .Inl.v  14lli. 
1»:{;  on  .lulv  l.')»li.  7S;  on  lul.v  Uilli.  «•!;  on  .lul.v  I7tli.  41;  on 
.Inlv  IS.  2'i;  on  .Inl.v  liUli,  77;" on  .lul.v  LMMli,  S;  on  .Inly  L'IhI,  1; 
on  .Inl.v  'Jl.lli.  IS!»;  on  .Inl.v  •_'7lli.  S7;  on  .inl.v  L'Stli.  lid;  on  .lulv 
2J>tli,  1;  anil  on  .lul.v  :SIhI,  I. 

(Ml  Auniisl  .'illi.  2:\\  on  Au>{UhI  HIIi.  l:{7;  on  An»jiiMt   ll'lli. 

10;  on  .\UKU8l  i:{lli.  S4;  <mi  Au^iihI  I4IIi.  214;  on  .\iihuhI  I'.ttli. 

'J;  on  AnjjiiHt  'JIMli.  I;  (Ui  .\n>;UH(  2\h\.  .^»7;  on  .\n>iUHl  •-••-'ml. 

li2;on  Au^uHt  l.'4tli.  10;  on  .\u^iih(  I'.'illi,  Ii4;  on  AiiciihI  l^liili. 

3°  lilt,  and  on  AujjuhI  •_'7lli.  \h:\. 

Q._H(,w  inanv  in  thai  in  all  in  Hclifiiin  St-a?     A.— l.liOl  in 
Hclirin}!  Ht-a. 

Q. — Will  ,vou  ph'tiKc  Hiatc  wliirli  wen*  laliicd  in  li.v  .Mr. 
HprinK.  of  tlu'  catcli  in  ItcliriuK  Soa?  .\. —  I  lalli<-d  on  lllli 
.Inl.v;  on  llu>  l.'itli  .Inl.v  I  lallitnl  2:\  out  of  7H,  lli«'  balam-i'  of 
that  da.v  was  tallit>d  h.v  Mr.  Hpriii);;  on  ISIIi  of  .Inl.v  I  tallied 
IS  out  of  LM,  and  tlit'  iialant-*'  was  tallii-d  li.v  .Mr.  S|irin);;  on 
2]Ht  .lul.v  .Mr.  S|»riii^  tallied;  on  tlie  ItMli  .\npiMt  the.v  were 
Ao  talliod  h.v  .Mr.  Spriu};,  and  on  the  'JOth  Au^nHl  the.v  were 
tallied  h.v  .Mr.  S]>rin};. 

ii. — The  bahinee  waH  tallied  from  .voiir  own  entrieH  made  at 
tlio  time  in  .vour  Healing'  hook?     A. — Y«'h,  »ir. 

Q. — You  went  to  liehriii^  Kea  iij^ain  in  ISS!I  on  the  Hanie 


veKHol,  did  not  .voii?     .\. — Yes.  sir. 
Q. — Have  .v«Hi  the  sliip's  lojj  liook  for  ISSO'i 


A. — Yes,  si  I 


Q. — H.v  whom  was  it  kept?     A. — H.v  I  lie  mate. 
Q.— TJie  same  mate  as  in  ISSS?     A.— \o,  sir. 
Q. — AYlu)  was  (he  mate  then?     .\. — Mr.  Tunier. 


5°       Q. — Is  he  in  Vietoria! 


-No,  sir. 


6o 


Q. — \Yhere  is  he?     .\. — He  is  drowned. 

(J. — ^Yas  the  dail.v  catch  entered  in  the  ship's  Ior  Iwok?- 
A. — Not  in  the  ship's  \ofi. 

Q — l>id  .YOU  ke<*p  a  senlin<;  book?     A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — From  da.v  to  da.v?     .\.  — Yes.  sir.  fnmi  da.v  to  da.v. 

Q. — Have  ,von  ^ot  that  hook  here  hef«»ro  .vou?  A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — \Yill  .von  sa.v  what  was  the  nuinher  of  canoes  .vou  had 
in  1880?     .\. — Nine  canties  and  one  li<mt. 

Q. — That  was  the  st«  rn  boat?     A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — 1  believe  that  is  not  the  number  .vou  gave  the  other 


dav 


A. — No,  sir. 


Q. — Y'on  were  Riviufi  it  from  niemorv  tlie  other  da.v?  A.— 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  .von  ascertain  from  ,vonr  book  as  to  tho  number 
there  were  in  that  .vear?     .\. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Was  the  Micrn  boat  mudi  used  in  1.<*Hn?  A. — She  was 
sometimi's  used  in  fine  weather. 


749 

lL)iii;;lillii  Ml  l.diii-    UiMliifil.) 

y. — WiiK  il  iiMcd  to  IIm'  Hiinic  i-xtfiil  IIS  (Im-  oIImth?  A. — 
No.  hIp. 

l^.— W«.|'«'  llif.v  wliit*'  111(11  or  liMliiiiiM  ill  INK!!?  A.— I  hii*l 
Iiidliin  liiiiilrrH  hi  nine  <iiimm'm — llnil  would  In-  IS  liHl'miis— 
iiikI  hi'vi-ii  wliitc  iiirii,  '2Ti  in  nil. 

i^.— WImt  were  llic  white  iiK'ii  iiMcd  foi?  A.— .Iiint  (u 
work  tilt'  vi'N8«'l. 
ig  (^._1»|,.„H,.  jjiv,.  iiH  Hie  coiimI  ciitili  ftir  IHM1»?  A.— Il  Is  iiH 
followM:  On  Apiil  :{|(1.  ."»;  on  April  illi.  I;  on  April  !»tli.  .'.<»; 
on  A|iiil  IHIIi.  I!);  on  April  l!Mli.  Tti;  on  April  lintli.  2:  on 
April  'Jiitli.  :i:  on  April  .'tiiili.  li'J. 

(hi  M)iv  llitli.  Ti;  on  M:iv  ITlli.  :tO;  on  Mii.v  istli.  »;  on  M  ly 
LT.tli.  4r.;oii  Miiy  L'Tlli.  I;  on  Miiv  -'tUli.  liJ;  on  Mny  :illtli.  .{7. 
On  .liino  IhI,  H;  on  .Iniio  'J'JidI.  t;  on  •liini-  2:tr<1.  _. 
On  .Inl.v  'Jnd,  'J  ;oii    Itil.v  4tli.  I. 

(i. — In  nil  liow  ninn.v  i'i.il  .von  jjol  on  (lit*  coiiMt?     A. — Four 
linn<lr<'(1  jiidI  m'vcn. 
20       Q. — Tlicm*  nrc  nil  from  your  own  ontrioH?     A. — Yoh,  mIi'. 

(i. — Will  yon  jfivc  now  llic  riitdi  in  llio  llrlirinf;  Hen  in  tlic 
miiK'  ycnr?     A. —  It  Ih  iis  follown: 

On  .Inly  l.'tli,  11;  on  .Inly  llitli.  42;  on  .Inly  ITtli.  L'l :  on 
.Inly  IMtli.  :«>;  mi  .Inly  littli.  .'Ml;  on  .Inly  '-'IhI,  14;  on  .Inly 
i;i:im1,  IU:  on  .Inly  L'.'lrd!  7;  on  .Inly  i;4tli.  Ktl ;  on  .Inly  iT.tli.  7(t; 
on  .Inly  JCtli.  I*-';  on  .Inly  L'Stli,  :(;  on  .Inly  L'ittli.  4!l;  on  .Inly 
:m>||i,  l"7(t.  and  on  .Inly  MJst.  1!». 

On  AiipiUNt  iMt,  IS;  on  AiifinNt  .~)lli,  I4!>;  on  An^rnHl  Otli.  ID.'i; 

,     on  An^iiHt  7tli,  2(:;  on  An^iiHt  tMli,  lU;  on  An^diHt   lOtli,  111; 

^°  on  Ai'KiiNt    nth,  -JS;  on  AiiKiint    12th,  S;  on  AiiKiist    14tli.  2!; 

on  Anpist  l.'itii,  fi."!;  on  An<riist  Killi,  :t;  on  Ant;nst  ISih,  7,  on 

AnunHt  1!Hli,  17;  on  AiifriiHt  2(Mli,  I;  on  An^nHt  21st.  IS;  on 

AiipiHt  22nd,  4;  cm  .XuKiixt  2.'ttli,  40. 

Q. — MnkinfT  ii  total  of  how  nianv  in  ItohrinK  Sea?  A. — 
l,2fl«. 

(j. — Aro  iIm'ho  all  from  yonr  own  ontrios  in     llic     H*-aliii|! 
hook?      A. — Yc'K,  Hir. 
ii. — IM«1  yon  chiKHify  «ni  tho  vi'HSfl  tlio  wals  yon  <an};ht  in 
40   ls,S!>?     A.— YcN.  Hir.  ' 

(2. — ('an  yon  aHci'i-tain  aH  to  wlu-tlH-r  yon  cannlil  any  tf''«'.V 
inipH  in  Iti'iirint;  Kca?     .\. — Yos.  sir. 

il- — Will  yon  .-iHiMn-tain,  and  say  whctlii-r  yon  did  or  not? 
\. — YoH.  Hir.  I  caiiKht   four. 
(i. — Yon  ninglit  four  in  tlic  Iti-hrin};  Son?     A. — Y»'h,  sir. 
i]. — Did  yon  keep  a  record  lor  ISSS  as  to  ni'«'y  paps  also? 
A. — No.  Kir.  not  in  this  hook. 

Q. — WoU,  n«»w,  did  yon  ro  out  scaling  in  1S!)()?    A. — Ych, 
sir. 
^°       (2. — In  what  vessel?     A. — In  the  same  vessel. 

(J. — You  Hcah'd  both  on  the  coast  and  in  the  Uehrin^'  Sea? 
A.— Yes, 

ii. — Have  you  the  ship's  lo;;  book  for  that  year?     .\. — Yes, 
sir. 
<i.— Hy  whom  was  it  Ivcpt?     .\.— It  was  kept  by  the  mate. 
Q. — Who  was  lie?     A. — Mr.  .Mnichisdn. 
ii- — Where  is  he?     A. — He  is  on   Van««nivcr     Island.     I 
think,  at  Ihincan's  Statiim. 
50       Q-— \Ya8  the  dally  catch  entered  in  the  ship's  lojj  book? 
A. — Xo,  air. 

ii- — There   w«m-c  a   few  entries  weren't    ther<'?     A. — There 
may  have  been,  but  I  did  not  notice. 
ii. — IMd  yon  keep  the  st'aliiiK  book?     A. — Yes.  sir. 
ii. — In  which  you  made  ytnir  own  entries  rcmi  day  to  day? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

/i-— Will  yon  ;;ive  us  the  coast  catch  for  ISiM!?  A.— Yes, 
•sir;  if  is  as  follows' 


't 


' 


1 

DHflj 

' 

i' 

'J' 

ml 
flit 


'T'i" 


lO 


750 

IIjiiikIiMii  M«'L«'iiu  -HftliM'fl.) 

On  A|Mil  irtlh.  57;  on  .\|»iil  IMIli,  7;  on  A|Mil  DMli,  21;  on 
April  -'Oih,  17;  on  April  'J-'nd,  7;  on  April  2:ini,  7t(;  on  April 
l'4tli,  lOH;  on  April  lioth.  «1;  on  April  iMttli,  II. 

On  Miiv  mill,  IMI;  on  Mii.v  I7lli.  10;  on  Mil}-  24tli,  it;  on  Mii.v 
'.'5tli,  ■.>4;'on  Mii.v  -.'7(11.  ± 

On  •Inni*  IhI,  :t;  on  .Inn*'  2n<l,  2;  on  •lnni>  4lli,  :UI;  on  .hinc 

5tU.  57; huD-  Ktli.  l!0;  on  .hint'  Hlli.  IM4I;  on  .lunc  tMli,  l«!4; 

on.lnni'  llMli,  l*J7;  on  .lnn«*  i:ttli,  5;  on  •liinc  15tli,  117;  on  .Inn*- 
I7lli,  I;  on  .Inn*-  istli,  1;  on  .lun<*  lltlli,  5;  on  .Inm*  2IMIi,  2:i; 
on  .hin«'  LMnI,  40;  «)n  Jnnt'  '2'2iu\.  !)'J,  tin<l  on  •lun«-  l!:titl,  20. 

(^— Wlial  Ih  iIi<>  total  on  lli«>  roant?    A.— 1.^05. 

ii. — Now  kIv«'  tin*  total  cattli  in  Iti-lirinK  •^•''i-  A. — ih\  .lulv 
ISth  25;  on  .lul.v  llltli,  15;  on  .hil.v  20tli,  lit;  on  .hil.v  21hI.  45; 
on  .Inly  22nd,  40;  on  .Inlv  S.'tni,  Kt;  on  .hilv  24(11,  47;  on  .Inly 
25tli.  4!»;  un  .hil.v  20tli.  :tO. 

On  AuKUHt  2ii(l,  17;  on  AnKUMt  :!i-«l,  24;  on  Au^nHt  4tli,  Ui; 

on  AnKiiNl  7tli,  ill;  on  AnKnut  !Mli,  47;  on  AnKUHt  lOtli.  Ki!); 

20  on  AiiKUHt  nth,  281;  on  AujfUHt  12tli,  2H;  on  AunuKt  l.tth.  )»; 

on  AiiKiiHt  Utii,  n:t;  on  Au^nHt  IStli,  1,  and  on  An^nHt  20tli.  I. 

*i.— What  Ih  tin*  total  catch  in  llchiinij  Hca?  A.— 1,110 
in  Mrlii-iiiK  Hon. 

(2.— Mad  yon  boatH  or  ciiihm'h  in  ISOO?      A.— Ciuhn'h. 

Q.— How  inaii.v  had  .von?  A.— 1;»  of  my  own  Ix'Hidi'K  four 
I  picked  lip. 

<i. — And  you  liad  a  Ht«'rn  boat  Ix'HidcH?      A.— Yph,  itlr. 

Q. — Did  you  havo  an  Indian  crew?      A. — Y«'h,  nir. 

Q. — IIow  ninny  men  in  nil?  A.— 2ft  Indiamt  and  m,-..ii 
wliito  nu>n. 

Q. — Includinyt  yoni-Hclf?      .\. — Ych. 

Q. — Yon  nay  that  you  picked  u]i  winn-  canooH.  IIow  many 
did  yon  pick  np?      A. — Four. 

Q. — Wh»'n  did  ,vou  pick  them  up?  A. — I  think  I  jiicked 
them  up  on  10th  AiitruHt.  tlu'  lii-Ht  day  they  worked  on  board 
of  me  waH  lltli  Au^nHt. 

Q. — IIow  many  days  did  they  lower  thoHo  four  oano«'B?  A. 
Four. 

Q. — ran  you  pivp  their  total  catch  Heparnte  from  the  otli- 
ei-H?      A.— About  fi4. 

Q. — It  nppear.4  that  your  best  hiwerinp  day  waH  on  the  l.HtU 
.Inly,  ISOO.  in  the  Itehrinp:  Rea?      A.— Yew.  »ir. 

Q. — Will  you  pay  when  won  entered  IlehrlnK  Rea  that  y«'ar? 
A.— On  ,Tuly  1ft. 

Q. — Will  yon  pay  if  yon  found  any  lop  book  on  board  tlie 
"Favourite"  for  l.W»?  .\.— Ych.  I  have  n  loR  book— iiiein- 
orandiim  — 


30 


40 


SJ 


60 


Mr.  DickinHoii: 
What  wuH  it? 


-You  Huid  HoiuethiiiK  about  n  niemorniidiini. 


The  WitneHs:— It  is  not  in  a  bij?  Iwok  like  the  others;  it  is 
kept  in  a  snial!  book. 

Redirect  examination  continued  by  Mr.  Helqne: 

Q,— Will  you  produce  that  book?      A.— Yes,  I  produce  it. 

K«M>k  marked  "N«.  12  for  identification." 

Q. — By  whom  was  it  kept?      A. — I  do  not  know. 

H. — You  cannot  swear  as  to  the  writinR?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q.— Did  this  book,  marked  "No.  12  for  identification,"  re 
main  on  the  vessel  ever  since?      A — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — I  sliould  have  asked  von  if  you  kept  a  record  of  the 
Ki-ey  pups  taken  in  IS'.tO  in  the  Beliring  Sea?      A.— Yes.  sir. 

Q.— Will  you  say  whether  you  caught  any  grey  pups  in  the 
Behring  Seii  in  ISJIO?      A.— No,  sir. 

Q  —You  did  not  ca^oh  any?      A  —No,  sir. 


30 


(l.uiKliliii  MiLniii— Kf-«-r«iHM.) 
U«>criHtH<'Xiniiiiiatioii  foiitiiiiitMl  \»y  Mr.  Wiirivn: 

<i.— I  take  i(  from  yuiir  book,  ('apliitii  Mchfau,  that  yon 
(11*1  nut  lower  ill  the  lk>liriiiK  Hmi  on  the  ISth  and  :!ltth  Auk- 
iiHt,  ISiN),  iMM-aiiMe  your  re|K>i't  \n  that  ,voii  took  one  Neal  on 
eaeh  ihiy?      A. — No,  n\v,  I  do  not  tliink  tliat  I  did  h>wer. 

Q. — Tile  liiHt  day  you  lowered  in    1X!N>    would  Ih'  ou  Utii 
AiiKiiHt?       A. — Yen,  Hir. 
lO       Ci.— In  the  year  18H!»  you  lowered  hint  on  the  25th  AuKUHt? 
A. — Yen,  Hir. 

Q.— In  the  year  IHHH  you  lowered  hiHt  on  the  L'Ttli  AuKUHt? 
A. — YeH.  Hir,  the  hint  lowerinir  wan  on  the  27th  .\UKUHt. 

Q. — Now,  I  iinderKtand  that  on  the  preHent  ocraHion  you 
are  teHtifyiuK  from  hookn  that  are  mainly  in  your  own  hand- 
writinff  with  the  exrcption  of  the  entrien  yoii  have  jfiven  aH 
beiiij;  made  by  Mr.  Hprlnff?      A.— Yen.  Hir! 

Q. — You  are  not  uninK  the  Ham4>  b«iokH  voii  had  here  the 
other  day?       A.— No,  nlr. 

Q.— Yon  are  j»oHitiv(«  that,  witli  the  exeeption  of  tlioHe  en- 
trieR  made  by  Mr.  Spring,  all  the  otherH  are  in  your  hnnd- 
writiiiK?      A.— V  4   sir. 

Q.— In  the  year  I  •:•(»,  when  you  made  that  large  eateh  of 
2S1  HealH  on  th»'  llth  AufcuHt,  you  had  17  ran«M'H,  I  take  it? 
A. — YeH,  sir,  17  <  ;iniK>H. 

Q. — Aw  yii  able  (■>  ntate  iiosiiively  from  yonr  bookH  aH  to 
whether,  or  lu,  any  sealH  taken  outHide  the  Behring  Hea  «»ii 
the  way  up,  are  inelmled  in  thcHe  cntchoH  that  you  have  given 
UH  UH  being  In  the  I<i  tiring  Sea?      A. — Y'en,  Hir. 

Q. — 1  anked  y<  i  the  other  day  If  you  ever  made  a  rei>ort  to 
the  Itritinh  ('(imiiiiNHionerH  over  here  Heeking  information  aH 
to  your  catch  in  Itehring  Hea  for  the  year  1S87  lH*ing  1,054 — 
and  you  ntated  you  had  not?      A. — No,  Hir. 

(/.— \Yhat  waH  the  tonnage  of  ilie  "Knvourlte?"  A. — 80 
toiiH. 

Q. — I  HU]»poHe  that  a  boat  of  the  nize  of  the  ''Favourite" 
can  Btay  in  tlu'  Hea  a  little  longer  than  a  boat  of  connlderably 
Hinaller  tonnage?      .\. — Yen,  nir. 

Q. — It  ninkeH  Home  difference,  doesn't  It?  A. — YeH,  it 
iiiakeB  a  difference. 

Q. — A  little  boat  or  a  boat  leHH  than  half  the  nize  of  the 
"Favourite"  might  be  bothered  by  a  Hea  which  the  "Favour 
ite"  would  Htand?      A. — Yen. 

Q. — And  the  lateHt  day  you  ever  lowen'd  in  Hehring  Hea 
wan  on  27th  AugUHt?      A. — Y'«'h,  I  think  it  was. 

Q. — I  am  Hpeaking  now  up  to  ISftl,  I  do  not  refer  to  any 
date  Hlnce  that,  and  vou  auHwer,  "yes,"  to  my  question?  A. 
—Yes. 
50  <i. — NVhei-e  did  you  get  this  book  that  Iuib  been  marked 
"No.  12  for  Identification"  that  you  brought  up  here  to  the 
court  room?  A. — I  found  it  amongHt  the  ship'n  books  on 
board  the  "Favourite,"  when  I  took  charge  of  the  "Favourite" 
in  1887. 

Q.— Where  did  you  bring  It  from  just  now?  A.— From  the 
"Favourite." 

Q.— When  did  you  get  it  off  the  "Favourite"  this  last  time? 
A. — Two  days  jigo. 

:). — Since  you  were  last  on  the  stand? 
60   ur«;;iy. 

Q.l-gince  you  were  last  on  the  stand? 
last  on  the  wtu.-d. 

Q.— Did  you  ilnd  this  book  on  board  the 
vou  took  ciinrgj'  of  her  in  1«87?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Is  this  the  book  Mr.  Si>ring  (!opied  from  when  he  made 
those  figures  in  the  book  which  you  produced  here  the  other 
day,  and  which  waH  marked  for  identification  as  No.  5?  A.-^ 
Yes,  sir. 


40 


A.—YeH,  on  Hat- 

A. — Since  1  was 

"Favourite"  when 


'T^ 

PI 

i' 

III 


IC 


2U 


3'^ 


40 


SO 


60 


(Lilll^lllill    .McLcilll Iff  CIOHH.) 

ti. — WluMT  dill  Mr.  SjHiiiji;  do  tliiit  copying?  A. — On  boui-a 
tlu'  "Fiivouritf" 

(i. — Don't  you  know  whoso  Inindwritin^  tliis  book,  niarki'd 
"Xo.  12  for  idontiliciilion"  is  in?  A. — No,  sir,  I  can't  toll 
von. 

ii. — Yon  were  asked  if  ,von  liad  foniid  a  log  book  (»f  llu' 
"FavoiirKc"  for  ISStt,  and  ,voii  <lo  not  mean  (o  liavo  tlic  Coni- 
inissioncrs  think  tliar  this  book  wliicli  has  been  marked  "No. 
12  for  idcntiticaiion"  is  (he  lofj;  book  of  the  "Favourite"  for 
lS8(i?       A.— I  'lo  not   know. 

Q. — You  know  what  von  staled  abont  Uiis  beinij  a  mem 
orandum  book?  .\. — What  I  said  was  Uiat  it  was  not  taken 
in  the  same  kind  of  book  as  tlie  siiii»'s  lo<{s. 

Q. — Do  von  think  "(  is  ilie  lofi  ef  llie  "l-'avonrite"  for  ISSti, 
or  do  von  ]»rodu(e  it  willi  (lie  intention  of  having  (he  Com- 
missioners beli  've  that  that  was  tlie  loj;  of  the  "Favourite", 
for  1SH(!?  A.— That  is  the  only  cme  (hat  I  could  find  for 
18S(i. 

Q. — Do  you  (hink  that  (hat  answers  my  question,  witness? 
A. — That  was  the  only  bonk  that  I  could  see  that  had  refer- 
ence to  ISSO,  and  I  l)rou};ht  it  here.  I  don't  know  whether  it 
is  tile  lofi  book  or  not. 

Q. — Yon  do  not  claim  that  it  is  tlie  lot;  bo(»k  of  the  "Fa 
vourite"  for  ISSO?     .\.— I  do  not. 

ii. — Does  it  juiriiort  to  be  on  its  face  the  complete  lo};  book 
u])  to  the  end  of  the  journey?     A. — I  never  read  it. 

Q. — Y>\(]  y<tu  ever  look  at  this  book  to  tind  out  the  location 
wher'>  seals  had  bet  11  taken  by  the  ''Favourite"  in  18S0? 
A. — No,  sir.  I  miffht  have  looked  in  the  book,  but  I  never  read 
it  thro>it;li. 

(^. — The  entries  in  (his  book  s(oi»  on  (he  J^lst  July,  18S(!? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

(). — .\nd  these  (iftures  in  (he  marfjin  on  various  jiajres  are 
not  in  the  same  handwritinj;;  as  the  body  of  the  book,  are 
they?     A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — And  they  were  wri((en  (here  by  Mr.  Sprinj;,  were  they 
not?     A. — 1  cannot  say. 

Q. — Are  not  these  ^Ir.  Spring's  tigures?     A. — I  cannot  say. 

ii. — Are  they  yoiiis?     A. — No,  sir. 

H. — \Vho  else  has  written  in  (his  book  besides  Mr.  Spring 
or  you,  or  has  had  (he  custody  of  it?  A. — It  might  be  Mr. 
Sj»ring,  but  I  did  not  s<'e  him  do  it. 

ii. — Do  you  know  Mr.  Sjtring's  handwriting?  A. — It  looks 
very  much  like  his  tigures. 

Q. — It  looks  vei'y  much  like  his  tigures,  doesn't  it?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — .Tu.<t  (urn  to  (he  nieinoiaiidum  from  which  you  read 
(he  other  day  contained  in  book  marked  "No.  ~t  for  identiflca- 
(ion,"  and  which  yon  s(a(e  Mr.  Spring  copied  fr<Hn  (he  book 
found  <ui  board  (he  "Favourite."  I  asked  you  if  thai  uumu- 
orandum  which  you  read  fi'om  the  other  day  an<l  which  you 
said  that  Mr.  Spiing  co]»ied  from  the  book  (m  board  the  "Fa- 
vourite" in  1SS7.  does  not  fake  the  log  of  the  "Favourite" 
down  to  the  ISth  of  .\ugusl;  look  at  it?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i.— ^VilI  you  look  at  the  book  which  you  have  just  i>ro- 
dnced,  and  whi(  h  is  marked  "No.  12  (ov  idenlitication,"  and 
tell  me  if  there  is  anv  entry  in  tlia(  book  after  .'Ust  .liilv, 
188t!?     A.— No,  sir. 

ii. — You  do  nol  (ind  any  endies  in 
(o  have  been  nuide  cm  any  day  af(e 
No.  sir. 

ii. — Keferring  now  (o  the  book  marked  "No.  5  for  identifl 
cation,"  and  parlicularly  (o  i»age  8,  which  contains  a  copy, 
whi(  h  you  said  was  ma<ie  by  Mr,  Sp.ing,  of  (he  menioranduni 


(ha(  bo(dv  (hat  purport 
:nst  .lulv,  188(!?      A.— 


lO 


753 
(Laut^lilin   Mrl.«>)tu — Kei-ross — Ri»-direot.) 

book  found  on  i\w  "Favoui-ito"  in  1K*<7,  will  you  tell  me 
whether  or  not  on  that  \mgf-  then*  in  any  writing  other  than 
that  made  by  Mr.  Hpring  himself?    A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Is  there  anywhere  in  thin  Imok  marked  No.  5  for  iden- 
tififati<m  any  writing  by  the  man  that  kept  that  book  in 
IHHd.  whi«-h  you  produce  here,  and  whieh  is  marked  "No.  12 
for  identiflcati«)n?"      A. — No. 

Q. — Do  you  know  where  Mr.  Kprinfj  goi  the  information 
upon  whieii  he  based  these  fi);ures  after  the  31  st  day  of  July, 
whieh  are  made  in  this  book  marked  "No.  5  f<»r  identiflen- 
tion,"  on  paipe  5?  A. — He  got  it  out  of  another  book  simi- 
lar to  the  small  book  on  the  tiible  there. 

Q. — Will  you  i»roduce  that  book  similar  to  the  book  marked 
"No.  I'i  for  identification"?    A. — I  produce  it. 


Mr.  Warren: — The  book  which  witness  produces  is  marked 
2o  "No.  U  for  identification." 

Q. — Will  vou  turn  to  the  page  containing  entries  for  the 
18th.  l!)th  »ind  20th  of  August,  188(5,  in  this  book  marked 
"No.  11  for  identificaTion,"  and  which  you  last  produced,  and 
reading  from  the  entry  of  the  date  «!f  August  18th,  1886,  tell 
me  the  latitude  and  longitude  of  tlw  "Favourite"  for  that 
day?     A.— Latitude  55.12,  longitude  105.40  W. 

Q. — Is  that  in  Behring  Sea?    A. — Yea,  sir. 

ii. — Where  did  this  book  that  has  been  marked  "No.  11  for 
'°  identification"  come  from?  A — From  the  schooner  "Fa- 
vourite. 

Q. — And  all  that  you  have  said  with  regard  to  the  custody 
of  this  book  marked  "No.  12  for  identification"  a)>plies  e<]ual- 
ly  to  this  book  nuirked  "No.  11  for  identification"?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q. — I  have  here  a  book  which  was  used  by  Mr.  Peters,  and 
from  which  he  read  in  examining  the  witness,  Oaptain  Alex- 
ander McLean,  which  purports  to  lie  the  log  of  the  "Fav«»ur- 
4°  itc"  for  1886,  and  I  ask  you  to  ttim  to  the  entry  under  date 
18th  August,  1886.  which  is  a  similar  date  to  the  one  I  asked 
you  to  refer  to  in  Iwmk  marked  "No.  11  for  identification," 
and  I  ask  you  to  tell  me,  whether  or  not  the  latitude  and 
longitude  there  given  in  this  book,  mark«*d  "No.  1.1  for  iden- 
tification." corresj»onds  with  the  latitude  and  longitude  on 
the  same  day  as  in  the  book  marked  "No.  11  for  identifica- 
tion"?    A.— Yes,  sir. 


)'  i 


M 


50       Re-direct  examination  by  Mr.  Bei<|ue: 

Q. — When  you  were  asked  as  to  the  entries  made  by  Mr. 
Spring  on  page  8  of  the  b«H)k  marked  "No.  5  or  identification" 
and  not  c<mtained  in  book  marked  "No.  12  for  identification," 
you  were  al)out  giving  an  explanation  when  you  weiv  stop- 
|)ed.  What  was  the  explanation  you  wanted  to  give?  A. — 
I  said  that  there  was  a  continuation  of  that  book  markt^ 
"No.  5  for  identification"  in  the  small  book  which  I  have 
since  produced. 

ii. — You  wanted  to  refer  to  the  book  marked  "No.  11  for 
Identification"  as  being  a  continuation  of  the  book  marked 
"No.  12  for  identification"?     A.— Yes.  sir. 

(J. — And  where  all  the  entries  for  the  mouth  of  August  are 
to  be  found?  A. — Yes,  sir.  I  paid  no  pirticular  attention 
to  it,  as  to  where  Mr.  Hjiring  took  the  entries  from,  but  I 
know  the  book  marked  "No.  11  for  identification"  is  a  con- 
tinuation of  the  book  marke<l  "No.  12  for  Identifiaition," 

48 


60 


i: 


i 


7S4 


lO 


20 


'1 1  ; 


iLmiKtiliii  M«L«'iin— lU'tlin-it— KernmH.    Win.  Cox— Diivct.) 

y._I>o  .vou  know  in  whtwe  handwintinK  the  ontrieB  under 
date  of  IHth.  l!»tli  and  liOth  Angnst  in  the  hook  marked  "No. 
11  for  identification"  are?     A. — No.  Bir. 

(i.— Will  .vou  refer  to  the  log  Ixnik  marked  "Xo.  V.\  f«»r  iden 
tirteation."  and  jMiriKH-tinj;  to  1m'  tlie  loj?  book  of  the  "Fa- 
v«»urite"  f«»r  1HS<1  .and  wa.v  if  you  know  in  whose  handwriting 
thiH  lMK)k  iH?     A. — No,  sir,  I  <-anno(  say. 

Q. — In  your  experience  did  you  find  the  weather  at  the  end 
of  AugUHl  woi-Be  than  tlu'  weather  at  (lie  beginning  of  Aug- 
ust, or  in  .luly  ?A. — It  generally  is  worse  at  the  last  part  of 
August. 

(i. — Were  you  ever  in  a  smaller  vessel  than  the  "Favourite" 
in  Hehring  Sea?     A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — From  your  «'xperience,  would  there  be  any  danger  or 
a  Buuiller  s<'liooner  than  the  "Favourite  to  remain  in  the 
Hehring  Sen  until  the  end  of  August,  and  even  to  the  begin- 
ning of  September?     A. — No,  sir. 

Re-croBH-examination  by  Mr.  Warren: 

Q. — In  this  book  marked  "No.  11  for  idt>ntitication"  there 
are  entries  made  in  your  handwriting?     A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q.— And  after  the'year  1886?      A.— After  the  year  1886. 

ti- — Tliat  is  a  meni<»randum  taken  on  board  the  boat?  A. 
—Yes,  sir,  in  1887. 


iililliii} 


i 


III! 


I  !l 


30 


The  evidence  of  the  following  witness,  William  Cox,  was 
taken  for  all  the  cases  for  1887  and  1889,  out  of  order  by  con- 
sent, and  is  here  printed  for  convenience. 

William  Cox  was  calUnl  as  a  witness  on  the  part' of  Great 
Itritaiu,  and  duly  sworn,  December  17,  181)6. 

40       Examined  by  Mr.  I'eters: 

Q. — Wlu're  do  you  live  Captain  Cox?  A. — In  Victoria  at 
pn'sent. 

Q. — You  hav'i  lived  in  Victoria  for  how  long?  A. — Since 
1S8S. 

i}. — I  believe  you  ar«'  a  native  of  Nova  Scotia?  A. — Yes, 
sir.  I  was  born  in  Nova  Scotia. 

(i. — I  believe  you  came  around  in  the  schooner  "Sapphire?" 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— In  what  year?      A.— We  left  in  1887. 

Q. — .And  vou  got  here  in  1888?  A. — Yea,  sir,  in  February, 
1888. 

Q. — Were  you  mate  of  the  "Sapphire?"       A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — How  long  did  it  take  you  to  come  around  in  the  "Sap 
)»hire?"  A. — We  left  Halifax  on  1st  .Tune  and  arrived  here 
about  the  middle  of  February. 

Q. — What  crew  did  it  take  to  come  around?  A. — There 
was  a  captain  and  two  mates. 

Q. — .\nd  how  many  able  seamen?       A. — Five,  I   thinlc. 
60       Q. — .\nd  the  cook?       A. — Y«>8,  sir. 

Q. — tMd  you  know  anything  about  sealing  up  to  that  time? 
.\. — Nothing. 

Q. — Will  you  be  kind  enough  to  t«'ll  me  the  tonnage  of  the 
"Sapphire?"  A.— She  was  12:»  tons    registered  tonnage. 

Q. — She  was  brought  around  here  for  whom?  A. — E.  B. 
Marvin  &  Co. 

Q.-Did  vou  Ko  sealing  in  the  "Sapphire'  in  1888,  1889  and 
1800?      A.— I  did. 


50 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


(JO 


755 
(>Viii.  r«..\— IMn-it.) 

y. — III  I'iM'h  of  tlivtfv  ycai-H?      A. — Eiu'li  of  tbeBt-  years. 

Q. — In  18S8  joH  wont  in  what  i-apacity?      A.— As  mate. 

(i. — And  in  ISSJ)  you  w«'nt  an  captain?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

g.— And  till'  same  in  l«M»?      A— Yes,  sir. 

Q.— In  1888  did  slu'  carry  wiiiti-  men  or  Indians?  A. — 
Indians. 

Q. — How  many  canucs  did  slie  liave?  A. — I  tliinli  she  had 
nine  in  1888. 

Q. — You  are  now  sfiealiing  from  memory?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  how  many  men  altogether?  A. — There  were  18 
Indians,  three  aailors,  the  mate,  tli(!  captain  and  tlic  co<»k. 

Q. — Did  she  hunt  tliat  year  witli  guns  or  spi'ars?  A. — 
duns  and  spears 

Q.— Hoth?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — Did  slie  Inint  with  any  boats  besides  tlie  canoes?  A. 
— Yes,  sir,  one — tlie  stern  boat. 

Q. — Was  the  stern  boat  used  generally,  or  only  occasional- 
ly?     A. — Only  occasionally. 

Q. — The  bullv  of  your  hunting  that  vear  was  done  by  In- 
dians in  canoes?      A. — In  canoes,  yes  sir. 

Q. — \Vas  the  bulk  of  it  done  by  guns  or  spears?  A. — They 
used  both. 

Q. — Did  thev.  on  all  occasions,  take  out  guns  and  spears? 
A.— Yes. 

Q. — So  that  tliey  could  use  eitlier  if  they  thought  fit?  A. 
— Yes. 

Q.— 1  believe  jou  kept  the  log  of  the  "Sapphire"  for  1888? 
A.— No, 

Q. — I  want  you  to  look  at  this  book  you  now  produce,  mark- 
ed on  the  back  of  it  "Schooner  'Sapphire,'  Skin  Hook,  1888. 
188!)  and  18!)0."      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — For  the  year  1888  I  want  to  ask  j'ou  who  kept  the  book? 
A. — Captain  Petty. 

Q. — Was  he  captain  of  the  vessel?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  were  the  mate?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Where  is  Captain  Petty?      A.— He  is  dead. 

Q.— Was  this  book  also  kept  in  the  years  1889  and  1890? 
A.— Yes. 

Q. — Who  kept  that  book  during  these  years?  A. — I  kept 
it. 

q._Ih  it  all  in  your  handwriting?  A.— It  is  all  in  my 
handwriting? 

Q._In  1889  and  1890?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q.— And  for  1888  it  is  all  kept  in  Captain  Petty's  hand- 
writing?     A.— Yes. 

Q._Does  this  book,  f(»r  tlie  year  1889,  contain  an  acount 
for  each  hunter  on  board  that  sliip.  sliowing  the  amount  of 
seals  caught  by  him,  and  the  amount  earned  by  him?  A.— 
That  is  it. 

Q.— It  shows  that?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q.—Was  that  the  object  for  wliich  the  book  was  kept?  A. 
— It  was  to  keep  their  accounts. 

Q.— That  was  the  object?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Will  you  tell  me  when  the  book  was  made  up?  A.— 
Either  in  the  evening  or  in  the  morning. 

Q.—  Was  it  made  up  from  day  to  day?  A.— Yes,  from 
dav  to  day. 

Q.-  For  each  man?      .V.— Yes,  for  each  man. 

Q._;  will  take  one  man.  for  instance,  here  is  Charles 
Uisho]».  that  is  one  man's  name,  and  under  that  is  an  account, 
dav  bv  day.  sliowing  the  number  (»f  seals  he  had  caught,  what 
he' was  entitled  io  and  credited  for  them?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q._Opposite  that  i^  the  time  you  finally  settled  with  him? 
A,— Yes. 
Q._Sliowing  the  settlement?      A.— Yos. 


i  ' 


'hi 


I  i 


I 


■ 

"■I 

H 

■  1         i, 

■■:';  I  .     1      ,  A 

■ii .  i:  1 

Pf|':'       'i           ■'          1 

!vi:!  : 

t  \-   : 

^    hi 


iii 


!il,i;i 


i'    f 


10 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


756 
(Win.  Ox — I)ii-tM-(.) 

Q. — Tht'se  iiieu  hunted  in  pairs?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Ana  the  iiceouut  of  the  two  men  that  hunted  together 
was  kept  togef'lier  in  one  account?      A. — Yes. 

Q.— And  separated  when  they  came  to  the  total?  A.— 
Yes. 

y.— Tlie  hunter  got  a  dollar  and  tin  steerer  got  a  dollar; 
there  were  two  dollars  for  each  skin— une  to  the  hunter,  and 
the  other  to  the  ste-.-rer?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — \Va8  that  payment  nuide  irrespective  of  the  size  or 
!r.kin  of  the  seal?      A. — Everything. 

Q.— Did  you  catch,  in  the*  Itehring  Sea,  any  quantity  of 
whaf  are  called  "grey  pups?"  A.— 1  do  not  remember  ever 
catching  any  grey  pups. 

Q. — As  a  matter  of  fact  they  are  not  caught  there?  A.— 
They  are  rare. 

Q. — Now,  this  book,  as  you  say,  contains  the  accouQt  of  each 
man  separately?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Have  you  lately  gone  through  that  book,  and  from  it 
taken  a  statement  showing  the  amount  of  seals  caught  jht 
day  in  tlie  year  188»?      A.— I  did,  yes. 

Q. — When  did  you  start  on  tlie  sealing  trij*  in  188!>?  A. — 
About  the  1st  .laniiary. 

Q. — We  will  leave  alone  altogether  your  South  Coast  catch. 
Did  you  go  to  IVhring  Sea?      A. — I  did,  yes. 

Q. — About  when  did  you  begin  tishing  in  Kehring  Sea?  A. 
— It  began  on  July  4th,  it  was  then,  I  think,  1  entered  the  Sea. 

Q. — And  you  fished  until  when?  A. — Until  the  last  day'of 
July. 

Q.— You  then  left?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — Why?      A. — I  was  afraid  of  being  seized. 

Q. — You  left  on  account  of  fear  of  seizure?  A. — 1  heai'd 
tell  of  tlie  seizures  and  left. 

Q. — YoH  have  made  up  this  statement  from  this  book  care- 
fully?     A.— Carefully. 

(/. — Can  you  giv»>  me  from  day  to  day  the  number  of  seals 
caught  in  the  month  of  July  by  your  ship?  flive  me  the 
date  tlrst,  and  then  the  number  of  seals.  A. — It  is  as  fol- 
lows : 

On  July  fith  we  caught  1 ;  on  July  6th,  2;  on  July  8th.  0;  on 
Julv  !)th."  HTt;  on  Jnlv  KUh.  :<7;  on  July  llth,  148;  on  July 
12tii,  4(i:  on  July  l.tth,  40;  <m  July  14th,  (>:t;  on  July  15th.  62; 
on  Julv  18th,  45;  on  July  l!)th.  111;  on  July  21st,  15;  on  July 
22nd,  ioi;  cm  Julv  2:kd,  »;  on  July  24th,  285;  on  July  25th, 
1!»5;  on  Julv  2(!th."<!2;  on  Julv  28th,  24;  on  July  2!)th.  114;  and 
on  Julv  .'{0th,  178. 

Q.— Making  the  total  what?     A.— 1,641,  I  think. 

Q. — And  then  vou  left  and  hunted  no  more  in  August? 
A— Yes. 

Q.— That  is- the  total  catch  in  Behring  Sea?    A.— Yes. 

Q. — Is  that  the  correct  amount,  or  is  there  some  little  dif- 
ference?   A. — I  think  there  sliould  be  a  few  differences. 

i}. — As  a  matter  of  fact,  does  the  difference  amount  to  uny- 
tliing  at  all,  or  is  it  a  mere  trifle?  A. — There  is  about  15 
seals  diflference. 

Q. — You  are  not  exactly  sure  which  it  ought  to  be?  A. — 
No. 

Q. — Will  you  exi*lain  to  the  court  why  yjiu  are  not  sure  on 
that  point;  just  take  an  example  there,  and  show  us  what  you 
mean?  A. — There  are  some  days  the  men  changed  <»ff,  a  man 
might  get  sick  and  another  man  would  take  his  place  in  the 
boat. 

Q- — And  that  would  make  a  difference  in  the  account?  A. 
—I  have  made  a  mistake  in  picking  them  out. 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


757 
(Wm.  Cox— Diir«t.) 

Q. — And  tliut  hai>i>c'ne«1  un  Huveral  oecuHiong,  as  Hbown  in 
the  book?    A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q, — Do  yoii  mean  to  mxy  tliat  every  one  of  these  dajs  were 
lowering  days,  and  that  they  lowered  the  boats  with  the  ex- 
ception of  the  Urst  two?  A. — I  cannot  say  whether  the  boats 
were  lowered  all  these  days  or  not. 

Q. — You  might  get  seals,  of  conrw,  without  lowering  the 
boats?  A. — Yes,  for  these  two  days  the  seals  might  have 
been  shot  from  the  vessel. 

Q. — That  is  with  regard  to  the  year  18Sfl;  now  with  regard 
to  the  vear  1890.  Did  you  vourself  also  personally  keep  this 
book?  '  A.— I  did. 

Q. — And  the  entries  are  in  your  handwriting?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q. — Have  you  taken  off  the  number  of  seals  caught  day  by 
day  by  the  "Sapphire"?    A. — I  have. 

Q. — Will  you  be  kind  enough  to  give  them  to  me?  A. — 
Yes. 

Q. — This  is  for  Behring  Sea  alone,  is  it?  A. — For  Behring 
Sea  alone. 

Q. — Now  give  me  the  date  and  number  of  seals  you  caught? 
A.— On  July  15th  we  caught  (53;  on  July  Ifith.  2;  on  July  17th, 
3;  on  July  18th,  21;  on  July  IJUh,  38;  on  July  20th,  48;  on 
July  21st,  3;  on  July  22nd,  i5;  on  July  23rd,  5-  on  July  25th, 
40;  on  July  20th,  40;  on  July  28th,  18;  and  on  July  20th,  0. 

Q. — Now  give  us  the  catch  for  the  month  of  August?  A. — 
On  August  3rd  we  caught  8;  on  August  4th,  7;  on  August  0th, 
05,  I  think,  but  theiv  is  a  blot  here;  on  August  7th,  17;  on 
August  8th,  22;  on  August  0th,  73;  (m  August  10(li,  102;  on 
August  lltii,  37;  on  August  13th,  1,  and  on  August  15th,  0. 

Q.— What  is  the  total?     A.— 742. 

Q. — That  is  up  to  what  date?     A. — Up  to  the  15tli  August. 

Q. — Why  did  you  leave  on  15h  August?  A. — The  Indians 
would  not  work  any  longer. 

Q. — And  you  left  on  15th  August?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — How  numy  canoes  had  you  in  that  yt'ar,  1890?  A. — I 
had  17  canoes  and  two  boats. 

Q. — And  were  you  using  gtms  or  spears?  A. — They  had 
both  guns  and  spears. 

Q. — And  the  Indians  mutinied  and  would  not  work?  A. 
— They  would  not  work. 

Q. — What  was  the  nmtter  with  the  Indians?  A. — They 
want"  d  to  go  home. 

Q. — Did  you  have  to  go  home?    A. — Yes 

Q. — Was  there  any  talk  of  seizure  in  1890?     A. — No. 

Q.— 80  that  you  left  the  Behring  Sea  on  15th  August?  A. 
— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  was  the  weather  like  that  year  for  fishing  where 
you  were?  A. — It  was  bad  weather  in  July  and  August — a 
bad  season. 

Q. — In  addition  to  the  information  you  have  given  us,  does 
that  little  book  show  the  position  where  you  caught  these 
seals — I  mean  that  list  you  have  in  your  hand?  A. — It  is 
copied  from  the  log  book. 

Q.— You  have  the  log  book  of  the  ''Sapphire"  for  1889  and 
1890?     A.— Yes. 

Q. — Will  you  be  kind  enough  to  tell  us  who  kept  the  log 
books?     A. — The  mates  kept  the  log  books. 

Q. — Were  they  kept  under  your  supervision?  A. — They 
were. 

Q. — Are  you  In  a  position  to  say  whether  they  are  correct 
or  not?    A.— Yes. 

Q. — Did  you  see  them  from  time  to  time?    A. — Yes. 

Q. — That  is  the  regular  log,  from  time  to  time?    A.— Yes. 


wm 


2i 


758 


Mm.  ^ 


30 


40 


50 


60 


(Will,  fox— IHr«<«.) 

Q.— TluiJ  in  IIm'  i-»'t{nl«r  loj;  Ittuik  Utv  1S8!'?     A.— Yts. 
(i.— That  loK  wiiH  ki'pt  by  11m'  mate?     A. — Yes. 
y.— Ih  it  UHHal  for  the  mate  to  k«'t'|)  tin-  log?     A.— Y«'h.  sir. 
Q.— Wliat  wa8  tlK'  nanu?  of  tlw  mate?    A.— It     wan    my 
brotlHT  ill  ISSi). 

Q.— Wlieiv  i»  .voiir  Itrotlwr?  A.— He  Ih  HittiiiK  in  rourt 
now. 

Q.— Did  you  take  off  from  llic  log  flic  |Hmiti«>n  wlifir  you 
wcr*'  at  tlu'  dati'8  von  fiol  (lu'm-  himiIh?     A. — I  did. 
Q.— Did  you  do  tlie  same  in  1890?    A  —I  did. 
Q.— Who*  kept  tlu'  ion  in  IHiMt?     A.— Tli«'  mate. 
Q. — That  was  your  hrotli»'r  al»o?     A. — No.  Kir. 
(i. — What  Ih  his  nani«>?     A. — llarriH. 
y. — Wheiv  is  lu'?     A. — lie  in  in  Victoria. 
Q. — As  a  matter  of  fact,  for  these  two  years  have  you  taken 
<»tr  the  ]M)sition  in  which  you  wei-e  at  the  time  that  these  seals 
were  cantflit?     A. — V<'s. 

ii. — Now  (hen.  look  a1  any  date  you  like  there,  take  about 
the  end  of  July,  1SHi>,  and  the  end  of  July,  1890,  tell  me  how 
far  ajKirt  yon  were  in  your  jtositions.  (Jive  it  in  rough  figures, 
1  do  not  want  to  go  very  close  to  it?     A. — About  SO  miles. 

Q. — Taking  the  rribyiolT  Islands  as  a  starting  jMiint.  where 
did  you  fish,  north,  south,  east  or  west,  in  the  year  1889?  A. 
— To  the  westward. 

Q. — Did  you  fish  pretty  much  in  the  sii'-ie  |Mmiti<m,  or  did 
you  change  your  gnniiid  niiuh?     A. — Not  in  1889. 

Q. — About  what  would  be  your  radius  of  chang<'?  A. — 
AlMiut  80  miles. 

(J. — Why  did  you  go  to  that  very  spot?  .\. — I  thought  it 
was  safer  off  there. 

Q. — What  made  you  think  that?     \. —  I  never  heard  tell  of 
the  cutters  going  in   that   directiini,  or  going  off  that   way 
much  from  the  infoniiation  I  could  gather. 
(i. — Von  thought  it  was  safer?     A. — Yes. 
i]. — You  did  not  hear  of  the  ciittei-s  going  in  that  direction? 
A.— No. 

Q. — Ibit  how  far  <»ff  the  Islands  were  you  in  round  figur«'S, 
tell  us  the  trend?     A.— 80  or  lt»0  miles.  ' 

(■i. — And  you  went  there  in  th«>  year  1889  because  you 
thought  it  was  safer — voii  undeiKtaiid  I  am  sjM^iking  about 
1889?     A.— Yes. 

Q.— Where  did  von  fish  in  1890?  A.— I  was  all  over  the 
Kea. 

Q. — Did  you  g<)  to  the  w«'stward  of  the  i.slands?       A. — 1 
did,  sir. 
Q. — How  far  east  did  yon  go?A. — About  80  or  90  miles. 
Q. — Did  y«Mi  catch  seals  there?     A. — 1  did  not  bw  any. 
Q.— In  what  year?     A.— 1890. 
Q. — Yon  caught  ncuK'east?     A. — None. 
Q. — Where  did  you  catch  your  seals  in  1890?     A. — To  the 
westward  and  tli>'  northward. 

Q. — What  canoes  had  yon  in  1889?  A. — I  had  15  oanoes 
and  a  stern  boat. 

Q. — When  you  say  that  the  Indians  wanted  to  go  home, 
what  did  they  do?     A.— They  broke  their  spears     up.     and 
threw  their  paddles  over  board. 
Q- — Was  there  any  use  slaying  iiny  longer?     A. — No. 
Q.— How  was   the   weather   g'ttiiig  when  that  happened? 
A. — It  was  getting  better. 

Q.— Had  it  been  rough  bef<)re  that?  A.— Yes,  it  had  bci-n 
a  bad  season. 

Q.— Had  weather  for  how  long?  .\. — The  weather  right 
along  was  bad. 

Q.— You  say  that  it  was  getting  finer?    A.— It  was,  yes. 


;59 

(Will.     ('»>X— IHlt'Ct— ClOHH.) 

Q. — Now  (lid  .v«ii  liwh  any  {K'.vt  of  Itvliriiig  Hl-ii  i!i  IK91?     A. 
— I  did,  jeH. 

At  5  o'clock  the  Coram litBioiiera  roae. 


20 


10 

rontinnntion  of  direct  exnminntion  of  William  Cox  by  Mr. 
ret»*r8,  n«'L'.  IS,  181>«: 

Q.— You  did  not  go  to  Behring  Sea  in  1888  at  all?  A.— No. 
sir. 

ii. — And  tin*  book  calhtl  the  seal  b«H)k  of  Nehooner  •'Sap- 
phire" which  has  be<»n  produced  here  already  and  which 
tihows  the  catch  for  1888  does  not  refer  to  seals  caught  in 
Behring  Sea?       A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — And  in  addition  to  that  it  dm's  not  show  the  catch 
that  tliat  schooner  made  in  1888  on  the  southern  coast?  A. 
— No,  sir. 

Q. — It  only  shows  the  catch  made  from  Victoria,  that  on 
the  northern  trij*?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Dickinson: 

Q. — Captain  Cox,  what  was  tlie  reason  that  the  "Sapphire" 
did  not  go  to  Behring  Sea  in  1888?  A. — 1  couldu't  hardly 
30   tell  sir. 

H. — You  know  no  reason  why  the  "Sapphire"  did  not  go  to 
B«>liring  Sea  in  1888?  .\. — Only  heard  the  cajtiain  say  he 
was  afraid  to  go  in. 

y. — Afraid  of  being  seized  in  1888?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

(I. — Where  is  the  captain?      A. — lie  is  dead. 

y. — <Jn  the  whole  yt>u  had  predy  good  sealing  iu  1888? 
A. — We  had  a  small  crew. 

Q. — But  the  sealing  per  man  was  jH-elty  good?  A. — Yes, 
sir,  very  good. 

Q. — It  was  fully  up  to  the  average  per  man  was  it  not?  A. 
— 1  could  not  answer  that  question. 

Q. — What  is  your  best  recolle«'tion  and  knowledge  upon 
that  subject?  A. — Well,  we  did  not  go  on  the  grounds  that 
year 

Q. — But  it  was  fully  up  to  the  average  sealing  per  man  was 
it  not?      .\. — I  have  never  made  it  up. 

g,—IIa\e  you  the  book  for  all  the  catehes  of  1889  and  189(»? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— What  is  that  book  you  have  in  the  oflice?  A.— It  is 
all  the  men's  accounts  and  the  expenditure  of  the  schooner. 

Q. — Kept  on  the  schooner?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— What  is  it  called?  A.— That  is  our  account  book  for 
the  men. 

Q. — It  was  kept  on  the  schooner  from  day  to  day?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q..— The  details  are  not  in  that  book?      A.— No,  sir, 

y. — 1  thought  you  said  the  details  of  the  catch  for  1888 
were  in  that  book?      A.— The  total  from  day  to  day 

Q.— The  total  of  the  schooner's  catch  by  days  is  in  that 
book?      A. — Yes,  sir,  not  itemized. 

Q.— And  the  entries  were  made  at  the  time  on  the  schoon- 
er?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— That  covers  the  same  period  that  this  book  you  have 
testified  from  covers?  A.— We  have  a  separate  book  for 
«'ach  vear.      It  covers  the  same  period. 

Q.— Those  three  books  then  are  for  1888,  1889,  and  1890 
that  you  have?      A.— I  have  not  got  them  sir. 


40 


50 


60 


4 

h 
'I 
■  i 


\i\-n\ 


f 

I 


;6e 


itiiilii 


''T'I'II 


lO 


20 


30 


(Wm.  Cox— CroHii.) 

Q.— Where  ai-e  thej?  A.— We  hand  the  bill  in  yearly  to 
the  office. 

Q. — Those  books  that  were  handed  in  that  were  Itept  on  the 
■hip  of  the  catc'h  from  day  to  day,  were  for  tlie  years  1888, 
1889  and  1800?     A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  were  kept  from  day  to  day?  A. — Were  kept  from 
day  to  day. 

Q. — Covering  the  same  p(>riod  then  as  the  book  which  yoii 
have  testified  about  entitled  "Schooner  'Sapphire,'  Second 
Book,"  for  the  same  period,  marked  "For  identification.  No. 
S?"      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — These  are  the  log  books  when  vou  were  master  for  1889 
and  1890?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Entitled  "Schooner  Sapphire,  1889,"  and  "Schooner 
•Sapphire'  1890"  respectively?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  you  have  given  the  location  of  your  ship  at  diff- 
erent dates  from  these  books?      A. — Yes,  sii-. 

Q. — Now  In  either  book — these  are  the  logs,  are  they?  A.— 
The  ship's  logs. 

Q. — Kept  by  you?      A. — Kept  by  the  mate. 

Q. — Under  your  direction?      A. — Under  my  supervision. 

Q. — Did  you  look  at  the  logs  every  day?  A. — I  could  not 
say  every  day. 

Q. — Do  you  take  the  position  of  the  ship  yourself?  A.— 
Always  do  if  I  can. 

Q. — Did  you  see  it  was  properly  entered?  A. — I  marked 
it  up  and  compared  to  see  that  the  log  was  properly  kept. 

Q. — In  the  logs  there  was  no  entry  of  catches?  A. — No 
sir. 

Q. — You  never  knew  a  ship,  did  you,  that  did  keep  it  in  the 
log?      A. — I  could  not  say  that. 

Q. — Did  you  ever  know  one  that  did?  A. — I  don't  know 
anything  outside  of  my  own  log. 

Q. — VVhen  you  take  an  observation  and  enter  the  latitude 
and  longitude,  what  time  would  you  take  the  observation? 
A. — In  the  forenoon  and  in  the  afternoon. 

Q. — Now,  whi'n  would  you  enter  the  position  of  the  vessel 
if  you  ever  entered  it  at  midnight?      A. — In  the  log. 

Q. — Yes.  A. — We  never  entered  the  |>OHition  at  midnight 
in  the  log. 

Q. — Made  no  entry  for  midnight?      A. — Kept  a  log  slate. 

Q. — At  what  time  would  you  enter  the  men's  a«'«'ounts  of 
the  seal  catch  of  the  day?  A. — Sometime  in  the  evening,  if 
we  had  time,  and  sometimes  the  next  moniing. 

Q. — Did  you  ever  enter  the  latitude  and  longitude  that  yo'i 
made  the  catch?    A. — It  was  always  in  the  log  book. 

(}. — You  mean  the  entry  of  latitude  and  longitude  would  be 
S'^  from  the  daily  observations,  would  it     not?    A. — And    the 
sights  we  had  taken. 

Q. — Your  last  actual  observation  would  be  taken  at  noon, 
would  it  not?     A. — In  the  afteraoon. 

Q. — What  time?  A. — Any  time  we  could  get  it;  three  or 
four  o'clock. 

Q. — Before  or  after  the  day's  work  was  over?    A. — B<'fore. 

Q. — And  how  far  would  the  men  go  from  the  ship  in  (he 
sealing  business?    A. — Oh,  I  think  on  an  average  four,  five 
gQ  or  six  miles,  sometimes  further  than  that. 

Q. — Out  of  sight?     A. — Yes,  they  would  go  out  of  sight. 

Q. — I  notice  occasloually  in  the  log  book  entries  like  this: 
"This  day's  log  contains  a  strong  gale  of  wind  from  south- 
west and  a  heavy  cross  sea."  You  recited  that  "this  day's 
log  contains"  instead  of  setting  in  the  log  that  it  Is  a  strong 
gale  of  wind  from  sou'west  and  a  heavy  cross  sea.  I  find  that 
in  several  places  in  August,  but  find  no  corresponding  method 
of  entry  for  July.     In  July  you  entered  "This  day  commenced 


40 


lo 


20 


30 


761 

iWni.  Vox — CroHH.) 

with  u  Htrong  west  b^  Houtliwt'Nt  biiM-Ki>,  iiiidniKlit  hiiiik'."  And 
for  inMtiiii<-«',  on  July  ItTh,  '*TliiH  day  coniuuMitrd  with  a 
stronj?  oaHlerly  bm-ie."     A.— Is  tliat  188»? 

Q. — This  is  IS^U.  Have  ,tou  any  explanation  an  to  the  change 
of  the  nieth(Ml  of  entii-inK?  A. — In  AuKtiMt,  IHHH,  we  were 
not  on  the  sealinR  groiindH  ho  I  did  not  examine  the  log  par- 
tienlarly  then  at  all. 

Q. — I  wanted  to  see  if  you  had  any  explanation  of  why  it 
seemed  to  recite  the  contents  of  some  other  Iniok  in  one  place 
and  not  in  another?    A. — I  could  not  say. 

Q. — You  are  perfectly  clear  that  you  were  in  there  in  Aug- 
ust, 1889?  A. — I  was  there  a  few  days,  but  I  had  left  the 
sealing  grounds. 

Q. — On  or  about  when?  A. — We  come  out  of  the  Hea,  I 
think  about  the  4th  .August. 

Q. — You  are  quite  positive  about  that?  A. — I  am,  I  feel 
certain  the  night  of  the  .'{rd  or— 

Q. — Came  out  of  the  Sea?  A. — I  think  it  was  in  the  morn- 
ing. 

Q. — This  is  no  doubt  the  log  from  which  you  testified, 
marked  "Schooner  'Sapphire,'  1880?"    A.— Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Dickinson ; — I  desire  to  have  it  marked  now  "for  ident- 
ification."     (It  was  marked  "No.  9,"  for  identification.) 

Q. — Do  you  know  of  the  catches  of  any  other  year  in  the 
sea?     A. — Not  positively. 

Q. — Did  you  know  the  sealing  vessels  in  the  years  1888  and 
1889?     A. — I  know  a  few  and  s]ioke  a  f«'W. 

Q. — Can  you  give  nie  the  names  of  a  few  that  you  spoke? 
A. — I  spoke  the  "Pathfinder,"  the  "Annie  C.  Moore,"  "Maggie 
Mac"  and  the  "Albion." 

Q.— What  year  was  that?    A.— 188!». 

Q. — Did  you  see  anything  of  the  "Heatri<'e"?     A. — No. 

Q. — The  "Theresa"?     A. — I  don't  remember  se<-ing  lu-r. 

Q.— In  eitlier  year.  1889  or  1899.  did  y<Hi  s«h'  the 
"Triumph"?    A.— In  1899  I  saw  her. 

Q. — The  "Mary  Taylor"?     A. — I  don't  rememiwr  seeing  her. 

Q.— The  "E.  H.  Marvin?"  A.— I  don't  remember  seeing 
lier. 

Q.— The  "Favourite"?    A.— No,  sir. 

Q.— The  "Kate"?     A.— In  189t»  I  think  I  saw  the  "Kate." 

Q.— Did  you  see  the  "E.  B.  Marvin"  in  1899?  A.— Not  in 
the  Sea. 

Q. — Was  the  "Marvin"  sealing?  A. — I  heard  she  was  seal- 
ing there. 

Q.— You  saw  the  "C.  H.  Tapper?"  A.— I  wouldn't  sav  as 
to  that. 

Q.— You  know  her?      A. — I  know  her. 

Q. — W^as  she  out  that  year,  1899.  sealing?  A. — I  could  not 
be  positive. 

Q. — She  was  a  particularly  handsome  ship  and  you  would 
have  recognized  her  if  you  had  seen  her,  would  you  not?  A. 
— Not  more  so  than  the  rest  of  our  vessels. 

Q. — The  "Catherine,"  formerly  the  "Black  Diamond,"  did 
■  you  see  her  in  1899?     A. — On  tlic  coast  I  siiw  her. 
-         Q. — Sealing?     A. — She  come  in  that  same  place  I  was  for  a 
crew,  but  I  don't  remember  seeing  her  on  the  grounds. 

Q. — Did  you  see  her  out  sealing  on  the  coast?  A. — I  did 
not  see  her  in  the  Sea. 

Q. — The  "Penelope"?  A. — I  spoke  the  "Penelope"  on  the 
const. 

Q.— Sealing?     A.— Scaling. 

Q.— The  "W.  P.  Say  ward"?  A.— I  don't  n'memb<>r  her  on 
the  sealing  grounds. 


40 


SO 


i 


:r.  il. 


m 


m) 


!'  i 


m 


Ijilliiiii 


^iit'ij 


nil  I 


20 


762 

(Will,    ('ox — ri'OHH.) 

H. — You  iTiiM'iiilM-r  hIm-  whn  mil?     A. —  I  could  not  hiiv  tliiil. 

Q.— The  ".Iiiaulta"  in  IMIMI?      A.— In  IH»0. 

y. — HciilluK?      A.— 1  did  not  we  her  on  Ihe  grounds. 

Q. — Did  you  Bee  lier  HealinK  uiiywliere?  A. — I  saw  lier 
Fouie  place  on  tlie  coast. 

Q.— The  "Sea  Lion?"      A.— I  did  not  see  her  sealiiiR. 

g.— Tlie  "Walter  L.  Rich?"  A.— I  do  not  remember  of 
sight ing  her. 

Q.—  The  "Ocean  Helle?"      A.— No,  sir. 

Q. — Now  did  .vou  see  any  sliipH  from  the  Htates?  A. — The 
"Alger"  is  the  only  one  1  remember  of  8|H>akin};  in  18!K>. 

Q. — Any  otli.rs,  whether  you  spoke  them  «tr  not?  A. — I 
think  I  H|H)ke  the  "ilessie,"  of  Portland. 

Q. — Any  others,  wlietlier  you  spoke  them  or  not?  A. — I 
don't  remeniTier. 

Q. — Still  there  may  have  been  others  that  you  saw  that 
you  cannot  remember?      A. — There  may  have  been. 

Q. — Now,  the  Indiam-  quarrelled  witli  you,  broke  tlu'ir 
pa(Idles  and  s]N*ars.     A.— Tn  1H9(). 

Q. — What  was  the  trouble  with  the  Indians?  A.— They 
wanted  to  go  home. 

Q. — They  were  not  afraid  of  being  seized,  I  suppose?  A. 
—Not  in  1890. 

Q. — Were  there  bad  storms?      A.— It  was  dirty  weather. 

Q. — Was  that  the  reason  for  quarrelling?  A. — One  man 
was  sick. 

Q. — Dirty  weather,  tell  us  what  you  mean  by  that?  A. — 
30  Well,  if  I  rememlter  aright,  it  was  not  very  heavy  but  just  so 
that  we  could  not  work  to  advantage. 

Q. — The  Indians  did  not  think  it  would  be  profltable  for 
them?      A. — They  wanted  to  go  home. 

Q. — Did  that  have  anything  to  do  with  it.  The  Indians 
wen*  being  paid  for  the  seal  skins  they  took  were  they  not? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — An  Indian  is  usually  ready  when  he  is  ofT  sealing  to 
make  what  money  he  can,  is  he  not?  A. — Yes,  sir.  when 
he  is  out  there,  but  when  they  take  a  notion  in  their  heads 
money  don't  stand  in  the  way. 

Q. — The  only  notion  you  know  they  took  in  their  heads  was 
they  wanted  to  go  Iiome  because  of  dirty  weather?  A. — 
Well,  as  I  say  there  was  one  sick  Indian  aboard;  the  Indians 
were  all  afraid  he  would  die  and  be  a  sort  of  a  Jonah. 

Q. — They  are  supei'sititious  about  that  are  they  not?  A. 
— Very. 

Q. — Did  the  man  die?  A. — He  died  shortly  after  they 
came  home. 

Q. — You  think  that  was  the  only  reason  why  they  wanted 
to  go  home?      .\. — That  is  the  only  reason  they  gave  me. 

Q. — I  thought  you  said  a  moment  ago  that  tlie  weather  was 
dirty?  A. — I  say  the  weather  was  dirty  and  there  was  a 
sick  man. 

Q. — I  would  like  to  ask  you  whether  the  catch  of  seals  is 
classified  into  wigs,  extra  large  seals,  large  seals,  medium 
seals,  middling  seals,  small  seals,  gray  pups  and  brown  pups? 
A. — Aboard  th<'  vessels? 

Q. — Are  they  classified?       A. — Aboard  the  vessels? 

Q. — No,  I  am  asking  yon  if  they  are  classified  in  the  trade? 
A. — They  are  not  with  us,  not  in  Victoria. 

Q. — Do  you  keep  the  sk'ns  separate *'  A. — No,  they  are  all 
together. 

Q.— But  you  know  the  cloKsiflcation  to  which  I  refer  evi- 
dently?     A. — 1  have  heard  of  them  being  classified. 

Q. — In  the  sealing  business?      A. — Not  in  our  part. 

Q.— Not  in  the  sealing  business  at  sea?      A.— Not  at  sea  no. 


40 


SO 


60 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


iO 


-'''3 
(Win.  «'((x  -('roMM — Uf  (lirt'cl.) 

Q. — l*u  ,vuu  kiiuw  <.'a|>Uiiii  Laiit(liliii  MtL«-iin?      A. — I  do. 

Q. — Ih'  Ih  a  M-ah'r  of  altoiil  •'•<•  MaiiM*  fxiKTlfUci'  n>«  your- 
Bt'lf?      A. — lit'  wa8  luTt'  iH'foro  .lU". 

(^ — Voii  know  liiiii  prcltv  wrll.  tlial  lu'  in  a  mail  mliri'ly 
faiuiliar  with  the  buHiiifH<4?      A. — Voh,  sir. 

ii. — And  you  iievor  lii>ard,  in  tlu*  Hfiiiiii};  biiHiut'HH,  of  kit'p- 
iuK  I'iaHBifientiuii  at  aval      A. — I  never  did. 

Q. — In  .vour  knuwIt'dKf  of  liiowii  and  gray  piipH,  v/vrv  thvy 
|>nt  rit;lit  in  witli  llit>  otlicr  h«mIh?      A. — AJtoKetlior. 

Q. — You  ki'i'p  no  •u-count  of  (lii*  nuniticr  of  Rriiv  pups  .von 
get?      A,— No. 

Q. — Nor  of  tlio  brown  piipn  jou  ra*cli?      A. — Xo. 

Q. — Nor  of  tlie  niiiiiber  of  siiiall  lealH  von  cnteli?  A. — 
No. 

Q. — Nor  of  tlic  numtier  of  liifdinni  or  niiddiini;?  A. — No 
I  keep  no  rei'oid. 

Q. — Nor  of  tin'  nniitl)f'r  of  wiRR?      A. — N'o.  sir. 

Q. — And  in  the  Hfiiteineiit  you  linvc  pivcn  in  your  direct 
testimony  you  liave  i-ailed  tliem  aii  KeaiH  and  estimated  tliem 
as  a  part  of  tlie  ratcli?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

Re-direet  examination  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q. — You  were  asked,  Capt.  Cox,  witli  regard  to  anotlier 
book  tliat  is  kept  in  tlie  oftiee.  Wlio  ke  ps  tliat  bo.ik?  A. — 
Tlu*  Captain  keeps  tlie  book. 

Q. — Wliere  is  it  now?      A. — ^Ve  liandtHl  it  in  to  our  owners. 

Q. — >Vlio  is  your  owner?      .\. — E.  11.  Marvin  &  <^o. 

ii. — And  tliey  have  tiiat  Imok?      A. — I  HUppo.>'(>  lli'y  Iiave. 

Q. — At  least  you  liave  not  got  it?      A.  — I  haven't  got  it. 

Q. — And  that  book  partieiilarly  kei'jm  an  aecount  of  tlie 
articles  sold  tin.-  ci-ew,  and  the  book  that  you  have  does  not 
give  it  at  all?      A. — No. 

Q. — And  this  is  the  book  yofl  liappened  to  have  in  your  pes 
session?       A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — And  you  produced  the  book  that  you  had?  A. — Yes. 
sir. 

Q. — You  wer»'  asked  about  some  entries  in  that  log  book, 
where  it  is  stated  tliat  this  day  comnieiici'd  with  such  and 
such  weather.  That  log  book  was  kejit  by  your  mate?  A. — 
lly  my  mate. 

Q. — Your  mate,  when  in  Behring  Sea,  was  your  brother? 
A. — Yes,  sir,  t'larence  Cox. 

Q. — And  on  the  coast  who  was  your  mate?       A. — Stoker. 

Q. — So  that  so  far  as  the  coast  catch  is  concerned  the  log 
book  was  kept  by  the  mate  Stoker,  and  so  far  as  the  Kehnng 
Sea  catch  was  concerned,  was  kept  by  your  brother.  (Marence 
Cox?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  weri'  asked  by  Mr.  Hickinson  as  to  certnih  ciassi- 
ftcation  of  seal  skins,  and  particularly,  you  nieuti«»ned  gray 
jmim.  Now  we  already  have  before  the  romiiiissioiiers  what 
a  gray  pup  is.  1  want  to  ask  this  question;  as  a  matter  of 
fact,  did  yon  catch  any  considerable  number  of  gray  jnips  in 
Hehring  Sea?      .\. — Very  few. 

Q. — They  are  caught  where?       A. — On  the  coast. 

Q._\Vhiit  do  you  mean  by  "very  few"— what  percentage 
would  you  say?  "  A.— 1  don't  remember  of  ever  getting  from 
'memory  over  «)ne  or  two  in  a  season. 

Q._So  you  may  say  it  is  almos  *  .at  they  are  nil — the 
gray  pups?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q"_What  ai-e  the  classeH  of  sk'ns  you  get  in  Behring 
Sen?    A. — A  great  many  of  these  large  skins. 

Q. — So  far  as  jnips  are  concerned,  yon  pet  very  few?  .\. — 
Very  few. 

O.— On  the  <onst  it  is  different?  .\.— Yes,,  sir,  they  are 
mixed  skins  on  tlie  coast. 


ii 


il 
1; 


:ti 


plliljl 


■4iU 


ii 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


764 

(Win.  Tox— RiTPOMH— R«'«Hr«'«».     Wni.  T.   llniirK— fHriMt.) 

(j. — I  don't  iiHk  you  nn.v  nnifmn  for  that,  thut  !■  u  fact?  A. 
— Tht'  wuy  wo  found  them,  yen,  bIi-. 

R(>fruM«'XHniiniition  by  Mr.  DirkiniMtn: 

Q. — You  do  not  inHtnifl  ,v<»ur  iiumi  not  to  tiiki*  ifri'.v  piipH 
If  th«\v  H«M'  thrni?      A. — Nt'V«'r. 

y. — You  do  not  tt'll  tlH'ni  no*  to  taki'  thi'ui?  A. — They 
brlUK  anything  th«>y  run  K*'t. 

Q. — Kxc«'|it  hair  wuIm,  I  Mup|M>M«>?     A. — Y<*«,  nlr. 

(i. — Th(>y  hriuK  uvy  |»u|m  <»■■  brown  pupH,  Huiall  HealH  or 
middling  H(>alH,  or  w\gn,  or  largt'  HealM  or  extra  Healt* — what- 
ever eonieH  tlieir  way?  A. — Anythini;  tliey  can  brlnj;  nlnmrd 
they  briuK- 

Q. — And  they  gt't  credit  aeeordinjjly?    A. — Yen,  Blr. 

Re-dlrect  examination  reHumed  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q. — On  the  queHtitMi  »»f  hnir  Healw,  do  you  |{«'t  ""y  quintity 
of  hair  HealH  in  Melirini;  Hea?  .\.— Oil,  I  think  nint-e  I  have 
lM'«'n  H(>alinti:  two  or  three  have  eome  altoard. 

The  ConimiMHioner  on  the  part  of  the  Tnited  HtateB: — Did 
your  hunterH  p't  a  full  lay  on  the  pupB?     A. — Yen,  Hir. 

The  CommiHHioner  on  the  part  of  the  Tnited  Staten: — 
They  count  the  Hanie  aH  a  full  i;rown  Heal?  A. — Yen,  your 
UoniHir,  everything  that  comeH  alxmrd. 

Mr.  lVter»:— That  i-^  in  Itehrint;  H*^?  A.— On  the  coaHt 
and  every  place. 

il. — Since  yoi'  ha  v.  iieen  hunting?  A. — The  tlrst  y«ir  or 
two  I  think  they  k<>I  >*>x  bitB. 

Q. — What  for?     A. — For  (jrey  pups. 

Q. — Now  what  is  the  ruh'?  A. — They  get  full  pii.v  fiw 
everythinR 

Q.— Since  when  did  that  come  in?    A.— Since  1891. 

Q.— Kut  prior  to  1891  they  got  bIx  blta?    A.— Six  bitH. 

Re-croas  examination  roBumed  by  Mr.  DickinRon: 

Q. — Whether  you  pjjy  bIx  bits  or  f  1  or  |2  or  f 5  for  the  lay, 
whatever  the  price  is,  when  yon  give  the  statement  of  the 
nunib<>r  of  Heals  taken  yon  have  includ(>d  pups,  have  you  not, 
in  your  testimony  and  in  your  book?  A. — Everything  is  in- 
cluded. 


SO 

William  Tliomas  Bragg  recalled  out  of  order  by  consent, 
December  18.  189fi,  on  the  pai-t  ot  (Ireat  Britain,  as  to  all 
cases  except  the  "Carolena,"  and  his  evidence  is  printed  here 

for  convenience. 
Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q. — You  were  on  board  the  '"Maggie  Mac"  at  one  time,  were 
-     you  not?    A. — Yes,  sir. 
^      Q.— Will  you  tell  me  in  what  year?    A.— 1889  and  1890. 

Q. — We  will  contlne  you  first  to  1889.  In  what  capacity 
were  you  on  boord  that  ship  in  that  year?    A.— Hunter. 

Q- — Will  you  tell  me  how  many  hunting  boats  you  had? 
A.— Five  hunting  boats  and  the  stern  boat  in  1889. 

Q- — How  many  men  did  she  carry  altogether?  A. — I  can- 
not tell  you  the  exact  number,  but  it  was  somewhere  between 
19  and  20. 


^^w 


-65 

I  Will.  T.  Ilnijrn— IHml.) 

Q. — Hlif  would  liiiv«'  tift*'«*n  iiicii  to  iiiaii  the  iHiutH?  A. — 
V«ii,  »lr. 

(i. — .\nd  tlifii  liow  iiiiin.v  oIIicim  would  hIic  liiivc?  A. — Tliu 
t-aptHln,  tli(>  unit**,  tlit*  riNik  iind  tli«-  i-iihiii  lio,v. 

Q.— And  thnt  wfl«  ill!,  wiih  it?    A.— I  think  llitit  wiim  all  on 
lii'f  that  ,v«*iii';  I  do  not  rniiiniluM-  whi'th<>r  tlio  iiiati-  liad  0110 
Of  two  nii-n  in  IiIh  \un\f.  I  would  not  li«'  rt'i'tain. 
,Q      H. — Who  wan  raptain  of  that  vt-KHcl?    A. — UimM. 

Q. — Who  wan  mate?  A. — A  man.  I  thiiiK,  by  thf  naiiit'  of 
Frant-iH  DaviH.  in  ISSi).  that  Ih  foi  part  of  tin*  mmihou. 

(i. — In  that  year  whcio  did  .von  wal?  A. — On  thi-  count  of 
California,  Ort'Kon,  WaHhinffton,  Vant-onvor  iHland  and  Di'lir- 
in^  Hca. 

(i. — Do  you  ri'monilMT  wIumi  you  wont  to  Itidirini;  S«'a  tliat 
y«'ar?    A. — I  do  not  rcnu'nibi'r  tlu>  oxnvt  date,  but  I  think  it 
WUH  altoiit  tlw  fli-Ht  wiH'k  in  July. 
Q. — Now  do  you  n-monilMT  the  total  oatt-li  for  that  your? 
20  A. — I  liavo  tho  total  catch  lu>r«'. 

Q. — Hut  do  you  rcnM'nilM'r  from  your  own  knowlodgi'?  A. 
— Xo.  I  do  not  rcniftiilH'r  tlio  -xact  catch. 

Q.— Can  you  tell  me  the  number  of  souIh  you  oauKht;  you 
Hhip|M'd  UH  luinttM'  that  year?    A. — 1  had  4!(7. 
Q. — IMd  yoii  catch  any  of  tluiHc  <m  tho  coast?     ,\. — I  did. 
Q. — I>o  y«»n  ri'iiicnibor  how  many?    A. — I  do  not. 
Q. — Do  you  itMii«'iiib«'r  how  many  you  caught  in  Koliriu); 
Sea?    A.— I  do  not. 

Q — All  you  can  give  me  from  your  iiK-mory  Ih  your  total 
30  catch?    A. — My  own  total  catch. 

Q. — I  iM'lieve  you  kept  a  meiuorandiim  book,  but  you  did 
not  keep  it  all  youi'Helf?     A. — I  had  a  memorandum  book  that 
was  kept  by  niyHelf.  but  the  eiitrieM  were  not  made  fnmi  day 
to-day,  and  I  would  not  rely  on  the  accuracy  of  it. 
<i. — It  wiiH  made  Hometiiiie  afterwards?     A. — Yes.  ( 

Q.— You  are  sure  of  your  own  total  catch?  A. — My  own 
total  catch  I  am  sur«>  of. 

(i. — You  were  paid  on  that,  were  you?  A. —  1  was  paid, 
yes. 

Q, — Were  you  out  in  the  year  1S9(»?     A. — I  was. 
Q.— In  what  veswl?     A.— The  "Majjuie  Mac." 
(2.— What  trip  did  you  take  in  IHrtO?    A.— Tlie  same  trii.. 
Q. — You  went  to  Hehring  Sea?     A. — Yes.  sir. 
Q. — Do  you   reiiiemlter  wlien   you    went   into  the   Hehring 
Sea?    A. — 1  do  not. 

Q. — It  was  in  .Inly?  A. — It  was  some  time  in  July,  abi.  t 
the  first  part  of  July.  Init  I  do  not  reiiieinl»er  the  date. 

Q. —  Do  you  rememlK'r  wlien  you  left  the  Sea?  A. — I  no- 
tice in  that  book  that  the  last  day  we  hunted  was  the  25th 
August. 

Q. — Is  that  correct  so  far  as  you  remember?  A. — I  think  it 
is. 

Q. — Can  you  tell  me  for  that  year  what  your  catch  was? 
A. — I  beg  your  ))ardon,  that  25th  August  was  18K9,  and  I  can- 
not say  w  lat  was  the  last  day  we  hunted  in  1890. 

(i. — Do  .\ou  remember  your  catch  for  1890?  A. — No,  I  do 
not  remember  the  catch  for  1890. 

Q. — ^YeI•e  you  ever  on  the  ".\niiie  ('.  Moore"?     A. — I  was. 
C>°      Q.— In  what  year?     A.— In  the  year  1S91. 

Q. — I  will  not  go  into  that,  but  just  tell  us  who  was  the 
captain  of  the  "Annie  C.    Moore"    in    1891?       A. — Captain 
Hackett. 
(i.— Who  was  th«'  captain  in  1890?    A.— Dodd. 
Q. — Wlu're  is  Captain  Dodd?     .\. — Captain  Dodd  is  dead. 
Q.— Who  was  the  captain  of  tlu!  "JIaggie  Mac"  in  1889? 
A.— Dodd. 


40 


50 


;<f 


!  ) 


" 


Ii" 


u 


r:\,v 


llii!^ 


j66 

(\\m.  T.   r.iMKj;— l>ii(«(.     Will.  <)'l.<'iiiv--I»iirc(.) 

<i. —  III  ISSil  von  Niiv  (liMt  y<iii  rimj^lit  hcjiIh  aloiijj  llic  coast, 
1111(1  tlioiu'o  .voii  went  on  llic  iiorlluM-ii  tri))  iulo  It'liiiii};  Si>ii? 
A. — Yt'K,  sir. 

ii. —  Mcforc  ,von  lcf(  on  llii"  iiortlicrn  trip  <li«l  .voii  hind  llit> 
c'litcli  .von  ;;ot  on  llic  sondicrii  tiip?  A.— Wf  wciil  into  San 
FniiK-ist-o  sonic  time  in  Marcli,  I  IliinI;  it  was.  aiitl  what  skiim 
wc  had  at  lliat  liiiic  wc  landed. 
,Q  Ki. — What  did  von  do  th"ii?  .\. — When  wc  came  out  of 
there  we  started  in  scalin;j  ajjaiii.  We  never  came  to  \'ic- 
toria.  we  hiinled  mi  (he  coast  id'  ralifornia,  Orejjon,  Washin;;- 
toii,  Vancouver's  Island,  Alaska  and  down  the  Peninsula  to 
Sand  Toint. 

Q. — What  did  voii  do  there'.'  A. — We  put  our  skins  on 
Ixmrd  a  schooner  that  was  chartered  to  lake  the  skins  home. 

(i. — So  that  at  Sand  I'oiiit  von  landed  all  the  skins  von  had 
at  that   lime,  witli  Ihe  exception  of  what  you  landed  in  San 
Francisco?      A.— A\'o  did  not  land  them  at  Sand  Point,  but 
20   jiiit  them  on  hoard  a  schooner  to  he  shipped  to  X'ictona. 

ti- — Kroni  thai  time  iinlil  you  pit  into  Hehnn^  Sea,  did  you 
net  any  seals"/     .\. —  I  cannot  say  whelher  we  did  or  not. 

<2. — Whatever  seals  you  aoi  after  that  you  retained  pos 
sessiiui  of  Iheiii"/  .\.— They  were  011  hoard  the  vessel  until 
we  came  to  Nicloria. 

ti— Voii  hrouffhl  them  hack  and  delivered  them  at  Vic 
loria?     .\. — Yes. 

(i. — Did  yon  take  on  hoard  the  skins  of  any  other  vessel? 
A. — We  did  not. 
^         Q- — So  thai  all  the  skins  yon  landed  at  Victorin  woiv  Rkins 
you  had  caiiKliI  after  you  left  Sand  Point?     A.— Yes,  sir.  as 
far  as  T  know  of 

Q. — On  that  jioinl  is  your  memory  luelly  clear?  .V. — It  i.-*. 
I  never  saw  any  coiiiiiif;  on  hoard  liie  ".Maiiffie  Mac"  from  an- 
other vessel. 

<i— Vou  would  know  if  Ihey  caim-  on  hoard?  A.— I  think 
I  would. 


40 


The  witness  was  not  cross  exaniiiit  d. 


■lil'lji. 


50 


Co 


William  (VliCary,  recalled  out  of  order  by  consent,  Decem- 
ber IS,  18!»(i,  on  Ihe  part  of  (Sreal  llrilain  with  r(>fereiice  to  all 
cases  in  1SS!>,  and  especially  with  reference  to  the  "Pathtind- 
er,"  Claiin  14,  and  his  testimony  is  printed  here  for  coii- 
venieuce. 

Direct  e.xaminntion  by  Mr.  Heiquo: 

Q — ('apt.  O'l  cary.  you  have  been  already  e.xaniined  as  I') 
the  years  ISSd  and  JS,s7?      A.— Yes.  sir. 

Q.— In  IS.SS  were  you  in  the  Itehriiif;  Sea?  A. — No,  1  wus 
nol  in  lli(>  HchriiiK  Sea  in  ISSS. 

Q. — You  sealed  on  the  coasi  only?  A. — 1  sealed  on  the 
coast  of  Vancouver  Island. 

li.— In  1SS!I  vlid  y(ni  no  into  Ihe  IJehriiifj  Sea?      A.  -I  did. 

(J.— On  what  vessel?      A.— The  "Pathllmb'f." 

(i. — .\s  master?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Who  was  male?  A.— Xiie  mate  of  the  "Pathflnder," 
in  ISS!),  was  Davidson,  at  Ihe  time  I  went  into  Itclirin);  Sea. 

Q. — Is  he  in  Victoria?  A. — I  do  not  think  lu>  is  in  Vic- 
tcM'ia,  lie  is  around  somewhere;  he  has  a  place  two  miles  out 
of  Victoria,  I  Ihink. 

Q.— When  did  yon  kco  him  Inst?  A.— I  Ihink  T  saw  him  in 
Victoria   this  fall. 


:!l 


1(^7 


.'*Tf7f« 

^ 

% 

lO 


(Win.  (>'L»'iir,v — IHn-cl.) 

Q. — How  iiinn.v  bonis  «li(l  yoi?  Iinvo  that  y«»ai  in  Itchriii); 
Ki'a?      A. — I  had  Hvo  rogiilai-  liiintiiiK  boats  and  a  Ktorn  boat. 
Q. — Did  yon  »ist>  tht  stt'rn  lM>at  nuu-li?       A. — Not  nuicli,  I 
UM«>d  tlie  st«>i'n  boat  to  go  ont  niyNcIf  an  odd  tiinc. 

Q. — I  nndorstood  yon  liad  only  Hv»>  boats  and  tlic  wtcru 
boat?  A. — Wo  had  six  boats  and  tlic  8l»>rn  boat  wlu'n  wf 
ranu>  in  h(>r«'. 

Q. — TIow  was  it  tliat  yonr  ninul)(>r  was  intToascd?  A. — U«- 
canst'  one  of  thv'  hnntors  wonid  not  go. 

Q. — Do  von  n-nn'inb**!'  wlicii  von  jfot  to  tlic  Itclirin);  Sea? 
A.— Abont  tho  1st  July. 

(\. — rp  to  whit  time  did  you  soal  in  tho  llchrinp  Sea?  A. 
— rntil  about  2nih  July. 

Q. — Wliat  ha;>iK'n(>d  then?  A. — Well  tho  rovonnc  rnttep 
"Rnsh"  came  along  and  took  all  the  sliins  wo  had  from  us, 
and  ordorod  ns  to  Riilia. 

Q. — Did  sho  tako  only  tho  skins?      A. — Sho  took  tho  skins, 
2^   tho  salt,  tiio  ffuns  and  somo  of  tlio  anunnnition,  but  slio  did 
not  tako  it  all. 

Q. — Did  slio  tako  all  tho  pun"  you  liad?  A. — No.  I  think 
two  sliot  guns  and  a  riflo  bolonging  to  ono  of  tho  huntors 
wero  not  takon.  I  am  not  cortain  as  to  whothor  it  was  two 
or  throe — it  might  have  been  four — but  there  were  two  shot 
guns  T  know  of. 

Q. — What  cr(»w  had  yon  that  year  in  Behring  Rea?      A. — 
An  Indian  or  a  white  crew?      A. — I  had  white  men. 
Q. — ETow  many  white  men?      A. — I  think  I  had  19  or  20, 
30  but  1  am  not  certain  as  to  one. 

Q. — On  the  2!)th  July,  wlien  your  vessel  was  seized  by  the 
"Rush,"  how  many  skins  had  you?  A. — Well,  1  tliink  1  had 
about  854. 

Q. — Taken  in  the  Rehring  Sea?  .\. — Taken  in  the  Rehrii\g 
Sea. 

Q.— You  took  llioRi-  from  tlie  Ist  to  the  I'fttli  July?  A.— 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  keep  a  Iwok  of  the  daily  catcli?      A. — I  did 
have  a  book,  ves. 
Q. — TTave  yoti  got  it?      A. — No,  T  have  not. 
Q.— WTjon'diJ  you  see  it  last?      A.— Th(>  Inst  time  1  had  it 
was  when  T  came  home  from  Rehring  Sea  that  time;  that  is 
the  last  I  remember  seeing  it. 

Q. — Do  you  know  where  it  was  left?  \.—\  do  not,  I 
tliought  1  iiad  it.  but  T  find  I  have  not. 

Q. — ITnd  you  been  in  the  habit  of  keeping,  from  year  to 
year,  memoranda  books  of  lliat  kind?  .\.— Oli.  yes!  We  al- 
ways keep  a  book  like  that. 

Q. — When  yon  were  seized  were  you  carrying  a  flat;?      A. 
— Yes,  when  the  cutter  came  along  we  hoisted  the  flag. 
Q.— What  flag?      A.— The  Rritisli  ensign. 
Q. — Do  you  remember  how  nmny  guns  they  took  from  yt>n? 
A. — T  think  about  12  shot  gnus  and  rifles  altogether.  T  can- 
not remember  distinctly  now. 

Q. — You  state  that  after  being  seized  you  were  ordered  to 
Sifka       A.~Yes.  sir. 

Q.— Was  an  oflllcer  of  the  "Rush"  put  on  board?      A.— Yes, 
one  of  the  quartermasters,  he  said  he  was. 
Q, — Ti,.  was  put  on  board  yonr  schooner?       .\.— Yes. 
O.— What  did  yoti  do  then?       A.— 1  started  to  come  out 
of  the  Rehring  Sea? 

Q, — To  go  to  Sitka?  .\.— No.  I  did  not  intend  to  go  to 
Sitka. 

Q._You  did  not  look  for  Sitka?      A.— No.  1  did  not  try  to 
find   il. 
Q__y,„i  ,.,ime  to  Victoria?    A.-  I  (IW. 


40 


•50 


60 


1!^ 

!  ■■  f 


p 

1 

If 

i; 

■ 

'  ! ' 

■llj'lin 


10 


20 


30 


40 


5 -J 


60 


(Win.  01. Oil ij— Direct.) 

ti- — <>n  your  way  fiiiui  H(>hi-iu<i;  Sea  did  you  htwir  yum- 
boatH  or  any  of  tlieiu?    A.— Yi's,  for  part  of  ono  day. 

Q.— On  wliat  day  was  it?  A.— It  might  have  been  about 
the  Ist  of  August,  but  I  cannot  reuienjber  exactly  the  day  it 
was,  it  was  two  oi-  three  days  after  we  were  seized;  we  were 
seized  on  tlie  21»th  August,  it  would  be  a  couple  of  days  after 
that.      I  think  it  was  three  boats  went  out. 

Q.— And  they  got  how  many  seals?     A.— They  got  50  seals. 

Q- — Was  it  a  fine  day?      A.— Yes,  a  good  day. 

Q. — I  suppose  there  were  plfenty  of  seals  and  you  were 
tempted  to  lower  your  boats?  A.— Yes.  there  w«;re  lots  of 
them  there. 

Q. — Was  there  any  objection  made  by  the  American^sailor 
who  had  been  put  on  board  your  schooner?  A. — None  what- 
ever, he  went  out  in  one  of  the  boats. 

Q — What  kind  of  weather  had  you  been  having  up  to  the 
time  you  were  seized?  A. — Good  fair  weather  all  the  time. 
It  was  the  usual  kind  of  weather  you  get  in  there,  some  days 
were  a  little  rough. 

Q. — How  many  days  did  it  take  you  before  leaving  the  Beh- 
ring  Sea  after  the  seizure?  A. — Quite  a  while,  we  must  have 
been  Ave  or  six  days  before  we  got  through  Unimak  Pass. 
We  had  a  head  wind. 

Q. — Was  it  a  wind  that  would  have  prevented  you  from 
lowering  your  boats  if  you  had  had  the  opportunity?  A. — 
We  had  a  couple  of  remarkably  fine  days  after  we  were  seiz- 
ed, the  next  day  was  a  fine  day,  1  remember  particularly — 
and  the  day  I  got  these  50  seals  thaf  was  a  fine  day. 

Q. — Equipped  as  you  were  how  many  seals  did  you  con- 
sider you  would  have  taken  if  you  had  not  been  interferred 
with  for  the  remainder  of  the  season  in  Behring  Sea?  A. — 
I  think  about  12  more 

Mr.  Dickinson: — You  do  not  press  that,  do  you? 

Mr.  Beique; — Yes,  it  will  be  taken  for  what  it  is  woi-th. 

By  Mr.  Bieque; 

Q. — Before  leaving  Behring  Sea  did  you  meet  with  any  oth- 
er schooner?  A. — Yes.  I  8iM»ke  the  "A Hie  I.  Alger"  next 
morning  after  we  was  seized,  I  remember  being  on  board  her. 
I  tilso  spoke  to  the  "Kate." 

Q. — Was  anything  transferred  from  the  "Kate"  to  the 
"Pathfinder?''      A. — Yes,  some  skins  were  transferred. 

Q. — How  many  skins  were  transerred?  A. — 1  think  three 
or  four  InindrtKl  or  thereijbouts. 

Q. — For  what  j)urpor8e  were  they  transferred?  A. — To 
bring  to  Victoria,  the  captain  asked  me  to  bring  them  home 
^or  him. 

Q. — On  your  arrival  in  N'ictoria  wliat  did  you  do  with  the 
skins  you  had  taken  in  Behring  Sea?  A. — What  I  caught  in 
Behring  Sea  myself  I  delivered  to  Carne  &  Munsie. 

Q. — Tliey  were  owners  of  the  "Pathfinder"?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  what  did  you  do  with  the  skins  brought  from  the 
"Kate"?    A. — Spiing  got  tliose  skins. 

Q. — You  delivered  them  to  Spring  as  owner  of  the  "Kate." 
What  had  you  done  with  your  coast  catch?  A. — I  t-auie  in  in 
Apiil  I  think,  with  the  southeira  catch  from  the  California 
coast  and  landed  them  here.  Then  I  went  out  and  went  to 
Sand  Point  and  shipp<>d  what  skins  I  had  g<rt  on  a  schooner. 
When  we  came  out  of  Sand  Point  I  put  them  cm  board  the 
"Wandei-er"  I  think. 

Q.— Did  you  keej)  any  log  book  in  1889?  A.— No,  there 
was  no  log  book  kepi  that  year;  the  mate  could  not  write  and 
there  was  no  log  book  kept.     I  did  not  k<'«'p  any. 


there 
and 


10 


20 


30 


;6y 

(Wni.  O'lii'iiry — Cross.) 
Crossexaiiiination  by  Mr.  Wairi'ii: 

Q. — How  mnn.v  skins  did  you  sond  back  rom  Sand  Point 
that  wore  taken  between  Victoria  and  Sand  Point?  A. — I 
do  not  remember. 

Q. — Five  hundred  and  tliirty-eight.  was  it  not?  A. — I  do 
not  remember,  it  miglit  liave  been  tliat. 

Q. — Who  knows?  A. — Munsie  will  know,  he  got  the  skins. 

Q. — And  those  skins  whicli  you  shipjied  from  Sand  Point 
were  all  taken  after  you  had  equippe*!  your  vessel  for  the 
Behriug  Sea  trip?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — So  that  the  supplies  that  were  taken  on  board  the 
"Pathfinder"  for  th(?  Behring  Sea  trip  had  largely  beert  con- 
sumed in  taking  these  skins  that  were  shipped  back  from 
Sand  Point?    A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — I  suppose  Mr.  Munsie  knows  the  cost  of  outtitting  the 
"Pathfinder"?  A. — Yes,  he  must  know,  he  put  the  stores  on 
board  all  right. 

Q. — How  long  were  you  in  here,  in  Victoria,  just  before 
you  left  for  the  Hehring  Sea  trip  in  1889?  A. — I  do  not  ex- 
actly know,  I  might  have  bi'en  four  or  five  days,  perhaps  six, 
but  I  do  not  think  it  was  over  five. 

Q. — You  outfitted  your  vessel  for  the  liehnng  Sea  trip — 
your  stores  and  provisions  were  put  on  board?    A. — Yes. 

Q. — And,  of  course,  the  provisions  and  stores  you  carried 
out  for  the  southern  trip  had  been  consumed?  A. — Well, 
partly,  I  suppose.     They  had  some  of  them  left. 

Q. — Very  little  left,  I  sui)p<ise?  A. — I  cannot  remember 
what  was  left,  but  there  was  some  left. 

Q. — When  the  "Pathfinder  was  outfitted  for  the  southern 
trip  she  was  not  outfitted  for  the  Behring  Sea  trip  at  the 
same  time,  (hey  were  separate  and  distinct  trips?  A.— Yes, 
sir. 

Q.— And  Mr.  Munsie  outfitted  his  boats  in  that  way?  A.— 
Yes.  Hold  on!  I  do  not  know,  but  I  might  have  taken 
stores  once  after  I  left  here. 

Q— After  you  left  here,  when?    A.— In  1H8».     No.  it  was 
1°  not  that  year,  it  was  before.    That's  all  right.    We  outfitted 
Ill-re  for  Beliring  Sea. 

Q. — And  you  outfitted  here  also  for  tlie  southern  trip?  A. 
— I  think  I  got  my  supplies  from  San  Francisco  that  time  if 
I  reiuember  liyht,  we  took  some  from  here,  and  *^ook  snuie 
more  there. 

Q— But  the  supplies  you  got  for  the  Behriui'  Sc:.  tvip  you 
tuok  I'ere?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — That  was  the  usual  praiitice,  wasn't  it,  to  make  two  dis- 
CQ  tinct  outflltings,  one  for  the  s<uithern  and  one  for  the  northern 
Iriji?    A. — Yes,  it  was  the  usual  practice  at  tlial  time. 

(i. — And  for  years  before  as  far  as  you  know?  A. — Yes, 
any  time  I  was  sealing. 

Q. — I  am  asking  you  of  your  own  knowledge?     .\. — Yes. 

Q.— Have  you  given  tlie  catch  of  tiie  "Pathfinder"  in  ISSC? 
A. — I  think  so. 

Q. — In  your  previous  testimony  you  separated  the  northern 
catch  from  the  Behring  Sea  catch?     A. — As  near  as  I  could. 

Q. — Hid  you  testify  from  memory  at  that  time,  or  from 
hooks?    A. — .Just  from  memory. 

Q. — In  1888,  I  believe,  you  stated  that  you  did  not  go  into 
the  Sea?    A. — I  did  not  go  into  the  Sea,  no. 

tj. — What  boat  were  you  on  in  1890?  A. — I  was  on  the 
"Ocean  Belle"  part  of  the  season,  and  part  of  the  vear  on  the 
"Walter  L.  Rich." 

Q.— Who  was  on  the  "PiomnM-"  in  1890?  A.— I  think  It 
was  (Captain  Morgan. 

49 


60 


K 


-f 


^ 


m 


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'ilhjiij!i 


I'  '■  !   I 


M 


10 


20 


30 


40 


(Will.  O'lA'iiiv — ( 'n»88.) 


oil  llu-  "Wiiltt'r  li.  Rich"  hi  Itcliriii);  Swi  in 

•Walter  L. 


50 


60 


il. — You  \v<'r« 
1S!M»?     A.— V<'8. 

Q. — How    inaii.v    boats    did    yon    have   on  tlic 
Ki«li"  in  IH'.KI?    .\. — Fiv»'  rcpilar  luintinj;  l)oat^^. 
il. — And  a  stern  boat?    A. — Yes. 

Q. — Yon  linnted  j^art  of  the  tiin«>  in  the  stern  boat?  A. — Yes. 
Q. — Yon  hunted  a  little  all  the  time?    A.— I   was  out  in 
her  most  of  the  lime  she  was  ouf. 

Q.— What  was  the  toniiaf."-  of  the  "Walter  L.  Rieh?"  A.— 
1  do  not  know  exaetlv.      She  would  be  about  70  tons. 

Q. — How  man.v  men  did  she  have  in  !><!)(»?  A. — I  think 
there  were  20  all  tol.l. 

Q. — Von  had  pra<'fioally  the  same  outfit  in  the  "Walter 
L.  Rieh"  whieh  you  liad  had  in  the  "Pathflnder"  in  i)revious 
years?  A.— Xo,  I  only  took  th(>  "Walter  L.  Rieli"  fr.mi  North- 
east Harbor 

Q. — But,  speaking  of  oano<'s,  boats  and  men.  yon  had  about 
the  same  number?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — How  did  she  ''onipare  in  size  with  the  "Pathfinder?" 
A. — She  was  about  the  same  size,  T  should  think,  or  ])erha|)s 
the  was  a  few  tons  larger. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  the  eateh  of  the  "Walter  L.  Rich" 
in  Behring  Sea  in  1800?  A.— 1  think  T  had  Koinething  over 
fiOO  skins. 

Q.— Was  it  net  O.'^.T?  A.— It  might  have  been;  T  know  it 
was  something  over  (!00. 

Q.— About  wlirit  day  did  you  enter  the  Sea  in  1H!»0?  A.— 
I  cannot  remen-ber.  It  wa.s  Romewh«>re  in  July;  I  guess  it 
was  somewhere  about  the  10th. 

Q. — It  was  about  the  ordinarv  time?  A. — Yes,  it  was  af- 
ter the  Ist,  I  know. 

Q. — Yon  were  late  that  year?      A. — No. 
Q. — What  time  did  y(»n  leave  that  year?      A. — I  left  there 
some  time  townrds  the  end  of  August. 

Q. — The  fact  is  that  that  season  you  hnnted  in  the  sea 
alM>ut  the  usual  time?     A. — Yes. 

Q. — And  yon  took  '!00  seals  within  that  jteriod?  A. — Yes; 
I  left  a  little  sooner  than  I  would  have  left;  I  was  short  of 
grub  that  year.  We  got  some  of  onr  stores  at  Sand  Point 
that  year. 

Q. — How  lat<'  in  August  did  you  leave?  A. — About  the 
25th  of  August,  as  far  as  I  remember. 

Q. — You  never  were  in  tlwre  later  lh:<n  the  2r>th  of  August? 
A. — -I  do  not  think  s<»;  that  was  the  last  year  I  was  in  the 
Behring  Sea. 

Q. — That  was  the  latest  time  you  were  ever  in  Hehring 
Sea,  the  2.^th  August?  A. — Yes.  towards  the  last  days  of 
August   somewhere. 

Q. — Was  there  anything  unusual  about  the  trip  of  the 
"Walter  L.  Rich"  that  year,  1800,  in  Hehring  Sea;  did  you 
lower  your  boa's  about  the  same  as  you  did  in  other  seasons? 
A. — It  was  about  the  same;  1  did  not  find  the  seals  quite  so 
plentiful  as  they  had  been. 

Q. — Y'ou  did  not  have  as  good  luck  that  year?      A. — 1  did 
not  get  as  many  seals. 
Q. — Did  you  see  just  as  many?      A.— I  do  not  think  I  did. 
Q. — Some  boats  made  good  catches  that  year?      A. — Yes, 
thev  made  them  after  I  came  htmie — a  good  many  of  them. 
Q.— Is  that  so?      Do  you  know  the  catch  of  the  "Mary  Tay- 
lor" that  year?      A.— i  do  not. 

Q.— Do  you  kmtw  the  catch  of  the  "Pathfinder"  that  year? 
A. — No,  but  I  think  she  had  over  two  thousand. 

Q. — Do  yon  i-emember  if  that  was  in  Behring  Sea?  .\. — I 
think  that  was  her  catch  altogether,  I  do  |i"t  remember  what 
fjUe  had  in  the  gwi, 


•'  ■: 


// 


l^w 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


5Q 


60 


(Win.  O'Li'iiiv— ('ioM«.) 

Q.— l>id  jou  kuow  the  ciitcL  of  tht-  "Tiiuuiph"  in  FU'Liing 
Sou?      A. — No. 

Q.— Did  you  kuow  the  catch  of  the  "E.  B.  Marvin"  in  1890? 
A.— No. 

Q.— IMd  .yon  know  tlic  lalili  of  the  "(J.  II.  Tnpnr'"  m 
Bi/hiinR  Sea,  in  1890?      A.— No. 

Q.— Did  .von  know  (ho  catcli  of  the  "Katt«"  in  1800?  A.— 
No,  thi'i-e  is  no  nsc  asking  nw  these  questions  because  I  do 
not  remember  it. 

Q.— You  say  that  some  of  them  made  th«'ir  largest  catch 
after  tlie  25th  .\ugust?  A,— I  believe  the  "^'iva"  got  a  good 
many  after  I  left  Behring  Sea. 

Q.— The  \iva  was  always  a  high  line  in  catching  seals?  A. 
— I  don't  know  that. 

Q. — She  had  exceptional  catches.  Is  not  that  true?  A. — 
E.\cei)tional  in  a  way.  She  always  made  a  pretty  good 
catch,  I  guess. 

<i.— Don't  you  know  that  Captain  Baker  made  unusually 
large  catches  in  the  "\'iva"  in  liehring  Sea?  A. — He  gen- 
erally made  pretty  good  catches,  1  believe. 

Q. — Do  you  kuow  any  boat  that  caught  more  than  he  did  in 
1889?      .\. — I  do  not  know  what  he  had  that  year. 

Q. — You  said  (hat  a  lot  of  boats  made  (heir  lai-gest  catches 
after  the  S.^tli  .\ugus(?  .\. — I  say  they  got  a  good  nuiny 
skins  after  T  came  out  of  the  Sea — (hat  is  what  I  said. 

Q.— >Vhat  boats  were  they?      A.— The  "Viva"  I  heard  of. 

Q. — She  is  the  only  one  you  know  of?      A. — 1  heard  of. 

ii. — Do  yon  know  the  catcli  of  any  of  the  vessels  in  18S8of 
your  own  knowledge.  I  mean  outside  of  your  own  vessel? 
A. — No.  I  cannot  tell  what  the  other  vessels  had. 

Q. — Do  you  kn(»w  the  catch  of  the  other  vessels  in  1887? 
A. — No,  but  I  heard  what  some  of  the  other  vessels  did  have. 

Q. — You  made  an  untisually  large  catcli  in  1887?  A. — I 
had  a  good  cat<'h  altogether. 

Where  did  you  tind  (he  seals  in  1889?  A. — Well,  the  most 
of  the  seals  I  see  in  that  year  was  to  tlie  westward  of  the  Is- 
lands— that  was  the  first  and  only  time  I  «'ver  was  (here. 

Q. — In  1890  where  did  you  go  (o  look  for  seals?  A. — In 
1889  I  was  west  of  the  islands,  it  was  in  1890  that  I  wa.n  to 
(he  eastward.  In  1889,  (he  tinu-  I  was  west,  1  was  west  sill 
the  time.  In  1890  I  went  (here  again  and  did  not  find  (hem 
so  plentiful.  I  saw  more  seals  (o  (he  eastward  that  year.  I 
did  not  remain  long,  I  came  home  shortly  after  that. 

Q.— Were  fifty  skins  all  that  you  (iiok  in  (he  Sea  aflei-  you 
were  seized?  \. — That  was  about  all  as  near  as  T  can  re- 
member.     We  only  lowered  ])art  of  a  day. 

Q. — You  only  lowered  your  boats  once  then?  .\. — Tes, 
that  is  all.  for  a  i)art  of  a  day. 

Q. — When  did  you  get  into  Victoria  (lia(  year?  .\. — I  do 
not  remember,  I  suppctse  you  .011  Id  find  oat  a(  the  fustoin 
House. 

Q. — Did  .vou  report  the  number  of  seals  you  (00k  in  1890  at 
(he  rnstom  House?  .\.— Oh.  .ves.  They  have  got  all  the 
catches  there,  T  supi»ose. 

Q. — I  ask  .vou  wh<'ther  you  reported  the  number  of  seals 
yoTi  took  in  1890  to  (he  C\istom  House?  A.— I  think  it  is 
likely  I  did. 

Q. — Did  you  report  the  number  you  had  taken  in  1890  to 
the  Custom  House?  .\.— What  skins  I  brought  honu>  I  re- 
ported to  the  Custom  House. 

Q.— What  time  did  that  custom  comnu'uce?  A. — I  al- 
ways rei»orted  since  1  have  been  sealing.  1(  has  got  to  be 
declared  at  tin-  Custom  House  wha(  you  liavf  on  board  when 
yon  come  in. 


i 


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II 


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20 


30 


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60 


7/2 

(Wui.  0'Lt'iir,v — Cross.) 

Q.— You  have  always  done  that?  A. — Alwayb  that  I  re- 
member. 

Q.— Since  what  year?  A.— Well,  1886  was  my  first  year's 
Healing. 

Q.— Do  you  say  that  in  1886  you  reported  the  number  of 
seals  that  you  had  to  the  Custom  House?  A.— I  think  that 
it  is  likely  that  I  did.  As  near  as  I  remember  I  always  re- 
ported what  skins  I  had. 

Q. — Then  the  Custom  House  would  have  the  correct  report 
of  the  catch  of  all  the  vessels  that  came  in  to  Victoria?  A. — 
I  think  so.  I  always,  as  far  as  I  remember,  made  our  report 
of  the  number  of  the  skins  in  the  entry. 

Q. — Did  you  in  your  report  tell  the  collector  whether  they 
belonged  to  the  coast  or  the  Behring  Sea  catch?  A. — I  do 
not  know  about  that;  what  skins  were  caught  on  the  south- 
ern coast  were  landed  here  before  we  went  north. 

Q. — When  yon  camo  back  did  you  tell  the  collector  that  you 
got  so  nuiny  on  the  way  up?  A. — No,  I  do  not  remember 
telling  him  that.  What  skins  I  had  on  board  when  I  came 
home — those  are  the  skins  I  reported. 

Q. — You  did  not  tell  him  whether  you  got  them  in  the  Beh- 
ring Sea  or  wliere  you  got  them?  A. — I  do  not  think  it  is 
likely  1  did. 

Q. — You  say  that  the  cutter  took  part  of  your  guns  and 
left  another  pari.  Do  you  recollef^t  that  slie  actually  took 
twelve  guns?  A. — Well,  it  was  about  twelve,  but  I  cannot 
remember  exactly  1  suppose  at  the  time  I  came  home  I 
knew  tlie  number  exnclly,  but  I  do  not  remember  now. 

(J. — Were  any  of  tliese  guns  ever  returned?  A. — Not  that  I 
know  of. 

Q. — You  never  understood  from  Mr.  Munsie  that  they  were? 
A. — No,  I  never  heard  from  Mr.  Munsio  as  far  as  I  remem- 
ber. 

Q. — How  much  ammunition  did  the  cutter  take  off  the 
"Pathfinder"  in  1889?  A— That  is  something  that  I  do  not 
know.  Tliey  took  llie  ammunition  boxes  and  the  ammuni- 
tion that  w'is  in  them.  I  do  not  know  whether  they  tock 
any  other  ammunition  or  not. 

Q. — What  would  be  the  value  of  what  they  took?  A. — I 
do  not  know;  T  cannot  say  what  they  took  besides  the  guns. 

Q. — You  said  tliey  took  tlie  ammunition  boxes  and  what 
was  in  them?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — How  many  boxes  did  they  take?  A. — I  suppose  they 
took  five;  we  had  five  hunting  boats,  and  each  boat  had  a 
box. 

Q. — What  kind  of  a  box?  A. — The  usual  ammunition 
box. 

Q. — You  could  tak"  it  out  in  the  boat?  A. — Yes;  perhaps 
there  would  be  about  one  hundred  shells  in  each  box. 

Q. — That  would  mean  that  they  took  Ave  hundred  shells 
from  the  "Pathfinder?"  What  would  they  be  worth?  A.— 
I  do  not  know;  it  is  something  that  I  never  bought. 

Q. — Don't  yon  know  what  a  shell  is  worth?  A. — They 
are  worth  different  prices. 

Q. — Were  they  loaded?      A. — Some  of  them  were  loaded. 

Q. — Are  they  brass  shells  or  paper?      A. — All  brass. 

Q. — How  much  is  a  brass  shell  worth?  A. — I  do  not  know 
what  they  cost.      I  never  bought  one  in  my  life. 

Q. — Did  you  ever  buy  a  loaded  shell  in  your  life?  A. — 
A  loaded  paper  shell? 

A. — Yes,  or  a  brass  shell;  either  one?  A. — No,  I  never 
did. 

Q. — They  do  not  sell  brass  shells  loaded?  A. — Not  that  I 
know  of. 


773 
(Will.  O'Lenry — Cross — Ro-dircct.) 

Q. — I  suppu8(>  jou  reported  to  Mr.  Munsie  when  .vou  came 
back  ns  to  how  miiny  shells  and  how  much  ammunition  they 
took?      A. — I  suppose  I  did. 

Q. — What  kind  of  rilles  were  those  they  took?  A. — Well, 
I  could  not  tell  what  kind  of  rifles  they  were. 

Q. — Did  you  know  the  uuine  of  the  maker?       A. — No;  I 
did  not. 
lO       Q- — What  kind  of  shotguns?      A. — I  do  not  know  what 
kind  of  shotguns  we  iiad  that  year. 

Q. — Were  th<'y  old  or  new?  A. — I  cannot  say  whether 
they  were  or  not;  there  would  liave  been  some  new  ones. 

Q. — Were  they  all  new?  A. — I  do  not  know  that;  I  will 
say  that  there  might  have  been  .lome  new  ones. 

Q. — Were  they  not  the  same  guns  tliat  were  in  the  "Patli- 
flndr"  in  1888?  A.— 1  was  not  in  the  "Pathtinder"  in  188H; 
18S7  was  my  last  year. 

Q. — Were  theie  some  of  them  that  were  in  the  "Patliflnder" 
20    in  1887?      A. — I  cannot  say;  there  might  have  been. 

Q. — You  do  not  know  tlie  value  of  those  guns?  A. — I  do 
not  know  what  they  cost. 

Q. — Do  yon  krow  the  value  of  them  at  the  time  tliev  were 
taken?      A.— No. 

Re-direct  examination    by  Mr.  Beique: 

Q. — You  have  been  examined  as  to  1890;  show  on  the  chart 
the  latitude  and  longitude  of  where  you  tished  in  1890?    A. 
— I  was  to  the  west  of  the  Islands  in  1890;  I  was  all  the  way 
30    from*  60  to  80  miles  west  of  the  Islands. 

Q. — You  mean  the  Pribyloff  Islands?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — How  long  did  you  remain  west  of  the  Islands?  A. — 
I  do  not  remember.  I  went  to  the  eastward  some  time  in 
August,  but  I  do  not  remember  what  time. 

Q.— Compare  1890  with  1889  or  1886  or  1887— state  if  1890 
was  a  good  vear?  A. — No,  1  did  not  see  the  seals  so  plenti- 
ful in  1890. 

Q. — How  was  it  so  far  as  the  weather  was  concerned?    A. 
— The  weather  was  fair;  very  good  weather. 
^         Q. — How  far  east  t'id  you  go?      A. — About  60  or  70  or  80 
miles  east  of  the  Islands.      I  was  in  latitude  169  or  168J; 
just  about  along  there, 

Q.— In  1889  for  what  time  did  you  outfit?  A.— Until 
about  the  1st  of  September.  I  generally  allowed  to  leuve 
Behring  Sea  about  the  1st  of  September  or  the  last  of  Au- 
gust. 

Q. — Did  you  ever  tit  out  for  a  later  season  in  Behring  Sent 
A. — Not  at  that  time. 
50  Q- — You  havi;  been  asked  as  to  whetlier  you  had  an  unu- 
sual catch  in  1887.  Was  it  an  unusual  catch?  A. — Well, 
there  have  bee.i  catclies  as  large  and  larger  thau  that.  That 
year,  if  I  remember  rightly,  althougli  there  was  only  one 
catch  that  was  over  3,000,  there  might  have  been  another 
vessel  that  had  as  many  as  I  had. 

Q.— Now  in  1889  for  wliat  season  did  you   outfit   in    the 
"Pathfinder?"    A.— We  allowed  to  stay  in  the  Sea  until  about 
the  1st  of  September. 

Q. — On  that  occasion  did  you  take  some  supplies  at  St. 
60    Paul?      A.— In  1890  I  did.   '  I  did  not  take  any  in  1889. 

Q.— I  should  have  asked  you  if  tlie  ship's  papers  were 
seized  and  taken  away  in  1889?  A.— Yes,  the  ship's  papers 
were  taken  from  us. 

Q.— You  have  been  asked  as  to  the  reports  made  on  the 
arrival  of  the  vessel  at  the  Custom  House.  Were  they  writ- 
ten reports  that  you  had  in  your  mind?  A.— In  making  out 
the  entry  we  always  put  down  the  number  of  skins  we  hud 
on  board  when  we  got  here. 


'1- 


I  ' 


M 


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Ill  i< 

I 

111 


III 


^ili! 


i!|i : 


mr""" 


iiNi 


lO 


30 


40 


50 


60 


774 


(Will.  O'F.imv— Hcdiivcf. 


A.  1{.  RiHSctt— Dimt.) 

A. — Yes;  that  is,  wriiiii^  in 


Q. — Is  if  niii(l(   ill  wfiliiij;? 
till-  (Jiistuiii  lluiist'. 

Q. —  Wli!it«'V<>i'  ropoit  is  timdc  is  in  writing?    A. — Yes. 

Q. — Arc  you  suro  yon  niadt'  iiny  report  in  writinp  in  ISSfi, 
1HS7.  or  even  ISm!)?  A. — 1  Jilwsiys  enter  tlie  nnmlter  of  sliins 
I  iiave  on  lioiird  wlion  I  eonie  in.  Tiiey  iire  always  entered 
in  the  f'ustoni  House. 

Q. — Tlien  if  you  made  it  it  would  be  there?  A. — Tt  nhould 
be  (here. 

Q. — And  yon  do  not  know  as  to  whether  any  distinction 
was  made  between  (he  eoast  and  (ho  Hehring  Sea  catch?  A. 
— \o,  I  do  not  know.  Tlie  skins  I  have  ro(  between  here 
and  Sand  Toiiit  and  shii)iK'd  back  in  another  vessel,  1  do  not 
know  about  that, 

Q. — (^ni  you  say  altout  whs  i  your  coast  catch  was  in  1880? 
A. — \o.  1  do  not  remember. 


20 


A. — 8in(v 
A. — Xova 


A.— 


bei'ii 


The  evidonco  of  the  following  witness,  Alfred  R.  Rissett, 
was  laken  with  reference  I0  all  cases  except  the  "t'andena," 
and  esjiecially  refVis  io  the  cases  of  the  ''I'athfludi-r';  and 
"Ariel,"  and  i»  jirinted  here  as  a  matter  of  convenience. 

Alfred  R.  Riss<'(t  was  called  on  December  10,  189(i,  as  a 
witness  on  the  part  of  Great  Rritain,  and  was  duly  sworn. 

Direct  examination  l»y  Mr.  Peters: 

Q, — Where  do  yen  live?     A, — N'ictoria, 

Q. — How  lonj?  have  you  us-ided    in    Victoria? 
181S.S. 

(}. — Where   did  you     ccdh'     from     ori^tinally? 
Scotia. 

Q. — Did  3'ou  biiu{i  a  \(ss(  1  around?  A, — 1  did  in  18'»(>.  I 
was  mate  of  the  "Triumph  '  ard  was  on  passage  arcmud  lier« 

(i. — How  long  have  you  been  engajted    in     sealing? 
Since  ISSO  inclusive. 

y. — Kveiy  year  with  (lie  exicption  o."  IWM)  you  liavt 
out?     A. — Ves,  sir.  I  did  not  go  out  that  year. 

Q.— Were  you  on  the  "Theresa"  in  1889?'     A.— I  was. 

ii. — In  what   capacity?     A. — Mate. 

Q. — About  what  tonnage  was  she?  A. — I  am  not  certain 
what  her  tonnage  was.  but  I  think  it  is  <i:t. 

(i. — Will  you  give  me  (he  number  of  boats  she  carried 
(hat  year?     A. — Six  regular  hun(ing  boa(s  and  a  stern  boat. 

(i.— White  liun(ers?     A.— Whi(e  hun(ers. 

ti. — They  used  guns?     .\. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — In  (hat  year  where  did  yon  hunt?  A. — We  hunted  to 
begin  with  fui  (he  coast  for  a  stiort  while.  I  joined  her  in 
May.     Fi-nm  there  I  went  to  Rehring  Sea. 

Q. — Did  you  land  your  coast  catch  before  yon  went  to 
Rehring  Sea.     A. — We  did. 

Q. — And  y<m  sailed  for  Hehring  Sea  from  where?  A. — 
From  the  Shumagan  grou]i  of  Islands. 

The  ("(Uiimissionei'  on  (he  par(  of  Iler  Majesty: — Is  there 
a  settlement  a(  Sand  l'oiii(?     .\.— Yes,  sir. 

ii. — An  Indian  sedlemeiit  or  wlia(?  A. — There  is  a  store, 
some  company  from  San  Francisco  h.ns  a  store  there. 

Mr.  Peters: — You  say  you  sailed  from  Sand  Point  to 
Rehring  Sea.  When  did  you  enter  the  Rehring  Sea?  A. — 
1  am  not  certain  wha(  da(e.  I  think  it  was  the  4(li  or  5th  of 
July  that  we  went  through  the  T^niniak  Pass. 

Q. — Did  yon  catch  iuiy  seals  on  the  way  up  to  Rehring  Sea 
from  Sand  Point?     \. — Xo(   (ha(    I  remember  of. 


lO 


20 


30 


775 
(A.  K.  !»iHs.'lf— hin-H.) 

(j. — IMd  viMi  tnkc  Jiiiv  skiiiH  willi  voii  wlirii  vim  went  into 
HoluMiifT  Sea?  A. — X(tt  tliiit  I  rciiu'iiibor  of;  w«'  truns-BhipiM'd 
onr  cntch  at  Hand  I'oiiit. 

Q. — So  that  all  the  walH  you  at'lerwardH  Hpeaks  of  were 
>jot  in  Bt'hrinp  Sva?      A. — Yes,  Hir. 

(.1. — I>o  vou  rt'iiieinlMM*  tlx'  i*\n\t  "I'aihdndcr'"  and  tlie  sliip 
"Ai-iel"?    A.— I  do. 

ii. — l>o  .vou  ivuK'niluT  tlicir  bcinj?  seized?     A. — I  do. 

Q. — Were  vou  near  tlieni  at  the  time  of  tlie  Beizure?  A. — 
Yes.  Mir.  I  tliinli  about  tlie  last  da.v  <)f  Jul.v  tlie  eutiep 
"KuhIi"  boarded  us,  in  fact  she  ihased  us  and  cau):;ht  us  and 
nu  ottieer  eanie  on  board  and  1h>  said  tlie.v  had  come  from 
the  "Pathfinder."  We  saw  a  shij*  rij^hf  alonj^side  of  the 
8eho4»uer,  about  si.v  or  seven  miles  off.  He  said  that  he  had 
come  from  the  "I'athtinder"  and  that  the.v  had  seized  her. 

Q. — .Vnd  they  boarded  you?    .\. — They  boarded  us. 

(i. — ]Jid  you  see  the  "Ariel"?  A. — Well,  he  reported  her 
as  one  of  the  tl«»et  that  was  in  sif>ht;  the  officer  of  the  cutter 
reported  her. 

Q. — There  were  more  than  two  s<hooners  in  sight?  A. — 
There  were  about  four  or  five  I  think. 

Q. — And  the  oflHcer  of  the  cutter  reported  that  he  had 
sf'ized  how  many  of  them?  A. — The  "rathfinder"  is  the  only 
one  that  I  n'memlter  of. 

(J. — That  is  what  he  rejwi'ted  to  you?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — .\nd  they  boarded  you,  did  tiiey?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i. — You   w«'re  mate  of  the  ''Theresa"?     \. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — The  officer  came  on  board  you,  did  he?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— What  did  they  do  to  the  "Theresa '?  A.— They  board- 
ed her.  the  officer  went  down  and  asked  the  captain  for  his 
paiM'rs. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Maji'sty — Why  is  it 
necessary  to  go  into  tliat ;  there  is  no  «;laiiu  oi>  jehalf  <tf  the 
"Theresa,"  is  there? 


Mr.  Peters: — No,  I  will  pass  that. 

The  ('<miniissi(nier  on  the  \mvi  of  Her  Majesty: 


'*  The  ('<miniissi(nier  on  the  jiart  of  Her  Majesty: — I  would 
sufjjjest  that  counstd  siiould  keep  clear  of  everything  that  has 
b«H'n  settled  bv  the  I'aiis  award. 


Mr.  Peters: — V«'ry  well.     (To  witness): 

Q. — On  that  particular  day  when  they  reporietl  that  the 
"Pathfinder"  had  been  seized,  what  time  was  it?  A. — Nine 
o'clock  in  the  morning. 

Q. — On  that  particular  day  what  sort  of  a  day  was  it  for 
5*^  sealing?      A. — A  splendid  day. 

Q. — Was  it  calm  or  rough?      A. — Very  smooth. 

Q. — Were  there  seals  being  caught  that  day?  A. — Not 
while  the  cutter  was  around,  tliey  prevented  us  from  lower- 
ing the  boats. 

Q. — Did  the  officer  of  the  cutter  make  any  statement  as  to 
the  seals  that  day?      A. — He  did. 

Q. — What  did  he  say?  A. — I  remarked  to  him  that  seals 
were  very  plentiful  around,  and  1  told  him  in  a  joking  way 
r,o  'htit  they  seenii'd  to  know  they  wer«'  under  the  protection  of 
tlie  American  cutter.  He  said  you  think  you  have  caught 
them  plentiful  around  here,  but  you  ought  to  be  around  the 
".Vriel,"  we  had  to  shove  them  out  of  the  way  before  us  in 
getting  on  board  her  this  morning. 

Q. — That  is  what  he  reported?      A. — Yes. 

Q.— As  a  matter  of  fact,  the  "Rush"  went  away,  did  she? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Did  you  seal  any  that  day?      A.— We  did. 


i^ii 


':  1 


i'ff'f 


t''i; 


'111 

■:;'lfij'|l: 


(A.    K.    niww-tt— Direct— (Jn)SB—R«'»lliPit. 

Direct.) 


10 


20 


30 


40 


W.    D.    B^cTS-- 


y.— With  wliut  BUccesB?  A.— The  cutter  left  us  nf  2 
o'doclc  in  tlio  ntteriioon;  she  liovered  in  nniong  tlie  fleet  of 
four  or  Ave  vesHelB  until  about  2  o'cloclc;  she  steamed  away  at 
2  and  about  4  we  lowered  a  boat,  and  we  got  97  sliiuH  from 
4  until  7  that  evening,  it  wub  either  95  or  97,  I  would  not  be 
certain  which,  but  it  was  either  of  those  two  numbers. 

Q.— What  did  the  "Triumph"  do  after  that?  A.— Went 
away  from  there;  the  captain  said  he  was  afraid  of  seizure 
and  we  went  down  close  to  the  passage  out  of  the  way  of  tlie 
cutters,  as  he  thouglit. 

Q. — And  you  went  out  of  tlie  Kea  when?  A. — We  (Fid  not 
go  out  of  the  Sea  till  the  3rd  September,  I  think  It  was. 

Q.— Whiit  part  of  the  Sea  dul  yon  get  away  to?  A.-  Wv 
were  down  In  rhe  neighborhood  of  Pour  Mountain  Pass. 

Q. — Did  yoji  find  any  seals  there?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Would  you  have  gone  there  if  it  had  not  been  for  the 
cutter?      A. — No,  air. 

Q. — You  stayed  in  there  part  of  the  year?  A. — We  Went 
down  in  the  neighborhood  of  the  pass  and  remained  there  for 
the  balance  of  the  season. 

Q. — Is  that  where  you  usually  sealed?  A. — Well,  we  left 
wh;'re  we  were  hunting  and  got  out  of  the  way  of  the  cut- 
ter. 

Q. — And  you  did  not  find  arty  seals  In  that  part  of  the  Sea? 
A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Now  what  was  your  catch  that  year  In  Behring  Sea? 
A. — I  don't  remember  what  it  was  but  it  was  a  small  catcli, 
I  think  about  fiOO  or  700  seals. 

Q. — Do  you  remember,  or  do  yon  not  remember,  the  num- 
ber you  had  caught  the  day  before  the  "Rush"  came  on  board 
you?      A. — I  don't  remember,  I  have  no  account  of  it. 

Q. — You  are  going  away  on  a  voyage,  I  believe,  this  after- 
noon?     A. — That  Is  mv  Intention. 


Cross-examination  bv  Mr.  Dickinson: 


A.- 


Q. — What  time  did  the  cutter   come   on   board? 
About  9  o'clock  in  the  morning. 

Q'. — And  I  suppose  your  boats  had  been  out  since  6  o'clock? 
A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — You  did  not  lower  them?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — And  if  was  one  of  the  finest  days  for  sealing  that  you 
saw?      A. — Yes,  the  seals  were  very  plentiful. 

Redirect  examination  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q.— Why  did  you  not  lower  them?      A.— The  cutter  was 
5°   chasing  us  and  we  were  trying  to  run  away  from  her. 


60 


William  Douglas  liyors,  a  witness  on  the  part  of  (i\vs\t 
Britain,  was  duly  swom  and  examined  out  of  order  by  con- 
sent of  counsel.  Deienibei-  10,  18!M»,  with  reference  to  claim 
No.  14,  the  '-Pathilnder,"  and  his  testimony  is  printed  lieic 
for  convenience. 

Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Peters: 

(J. — Mr.  Bvers,  I  believe  you  were  on  the  "Pathfinder"  in 
the  year  1889?    A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — In  what  capacity?     A. — As  hunter. 

Q. — When  did  you  start  on  that  voyage;  where  from  and 
when?    A. — Prom  Victoria. 

Q. — What  month?    A. — Some  time  In  January. 

Q. — And  you  went  first?  A.— Down  on  the  Oallfornia 
coast. 


iO 


m 

(W.  I).  B.veiB— Din-ct.) 

Q.— Did  you  «<»iH»'  diit'ct  (o  Victoria?  A.— V«'h.  Hir;  alxHit 
the  2nth  of  Mnrch. 

(i.— Did  .vou  Hail  from  N'ictoiia  again?     A.— Yor,  Hir. 

Q.— Wlit'ii?  A.— Sonu'  tlmo  in  Mnrch;  tlu'  Inttor  part  of 
Mari-li. 

(i.— And  waled  where?  A.— Up  along  the  Hrltinh  (Nilnni- 
bia  eoant  and  the  Alankan  couHt. 

Q.— Did  you  ent«'r  Kehrinj?  Hea?    A.— Yen,  nir. 

Q. — Do  jou  remember  when?  A. — Ketw«H'n  the  1h»  and 
fith  of  .luly;  I  can't  b«'  jMmitve  an  to  the  dat«'. 

(j. — Now,  will  y«»u  tell  nie  how  many  boatn  yon  had  on 
b«>iii-d  that  Hhip?  A. — We  had  nix  ImmUh  ineluding  a  Huiall 
Htern  boat. 

Q. — Five  rennlar  hnntinf;  boatn?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  how  many  men     A. — About  twenty  men 

Q. — How  many  men   for  eaeh  boat?     A. — Tlir«H>  men   for 
each  b«mt;  bt>HideH  that  the  captain,  mate,  cook  and  a  cal)in 
20  boy. 

Q. — That  was  yonr  whole  crew??  A. — That  waH  our 
whole  crew. 

Q. — You  were  armed  with  what?    A. — With  Hhot-gunH. 

Q. — What  kind  of  Hhot-gunH?  A. — I  don't  rememl)er.  We 
had  Bomc  L.  C.  Kniitli  guuH  and  we  had  Home  Gnglinh  made 
guns.  1  don't  remeniber  what  they  were.  I  know  we  hml 
Home  L.  (\  Smith  gunH. 

Q. — How  many  fiunH  had  you?    A. — We  carried  on»>  gun 
apiece — One  nliot-jjun  and  a  rifle. 
■^         Q. — Were  there  any  npare  jfunn  on  b(»ard  the  boiit?    A. — 
Yi»8,  I  think  there  were. 

Q. — You  sealtHl  in  Behring  Sea  up  to  what  time?  A. — Up 
to  the  29th  of  July. 

Q. — What  hap])ened  on  the  29th  of  July?  A. — We  were 
seized  by  the  United  States  ship  "Rush." 

Q.— What  time  about  and  day?    A.— The  29th  of  July. 

Q.— And  the  year?      A.— 1889. 

Q.— What  happened  on  the  29th  of  July?    A.— The  "Rush" 
40   boarded  us  and  seized  us  for  sealing  in  Uehring  Sea. 

Q. — The  "Rush"'  boarded  you?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Will  you  kindly  tell  me  what  took  place?  Describe  it 
as  briefly  as  you  can?    A. — You  want  the  conversation? 

Q. — Who  came  aboard?  A. — Lieut.  Tattle  came  aboard 
and  asked  the  captain  how  nuiny  seals  he  had. 

Q. — How  many  was  it?  A. — Eight  hundred  and  sixty 
something,  sixty-four,  I  think;  b*4ween  eight  and  nine  hun- 
dred. 

Q. — Can  you  tell  what  conversation  took  i)lace  between 
the  ca))tain  and  Lieut.  Tuttle?  A. — He  asked  the  captain 
how  nuiny  seals  lie  had  and  he  told  him  eight  hundred  and 
something;  and  he  says:  "Did  you  get  them  seals  in  Behring 
Sea?"  He  asked  him  how  long  he  had  been  in  here.  He  says: 
"Did  you  get  them  seals  in  Behring  Sea?"  The  captain  told 
him  he  did.  Well,  he  didn't  say  any  more;  told  him  lie  would 
have  to  go  aboard  and  r«»port  to  the  commanding  officer  of 
the  "Rush."  and  he  went  and  he  came  back  and  told  the 
captain  he  would  have  to  seize  his  vessel. 

Q.— What  did  he  do?  A.— Well,  his  bout  came  aboard; 
took  the  papers;  took  all  the  skins  we  had  in  the  hold;  took 
all  of  our  guns  and  our  ammunition  boxes  and  our  shells,  our 
rifles  and  our  shot-guns,  all  our  rifle  ammunition  and  our 
shells  that  were  loaded. 

Q.—Did  he  take  your  powder?  A.— \o.  he  didn't  take  the 
rest  of  the  ammunition. 

Q.— Or  your  shot?     A.— No,  sir. 


50 


60 


!'.. 


1^' ■ . 


i!      i 


^'\'- 


Pii::": 


Itii' 


m\ 


TT 


778 

(W.    I).    ll.V.'IH— IHlTlt.) 

ii. —  If  I  iiiidfi-NtaiMl  voii  toiTccilv  lu-  look  nil  .\<nir  kiiiih 
iiiitl  ynuv  i'lll<-H  iiiHJ  tlu>  iiiiiiiMiiiilioii  for  voiii'  lillfN  nixl  .voiic 
lna<l<'<l  hIu'IIn?     A. — Y«'h,  MJr. 

Q.— No  oilier  aiiiiiiiiiiilioii?  A, — Nol  llini  I  rcni<>iiili«>i-  of. 
I  won't  lit'  iiomHIvi'  of  Hint,  liiit  I  <lo  nol  IJijnk  lie  <liil. 

(i.— Ilnvinn  (lone  llial.  what  <li<l  li<>  do?  A.— Ilr  t»M»k 
tlit'iii  uwa.v  and  piil  oiu>  of  IiIh  nicii  altoard  of  uh.  I  think 
10  l»'  waH  a  jM'tt.v  oltiriT;  i|iiaitt>riiiaHtt'i'  or  Honit'thinK  like  that, 
and  told  iih  to  p>  t«i  Sitka. 

Q.— You  do  not  ivnicnilH'i-  tlu'  name  of  tlw  man,  do  ,von? 
A. — \o,  I  don't. 

(2.— Did  .von  have  to  feed  that  man  m  lonjj  aH  Im'  .aH 
aboard  tlit'  Hhip?      A. — Yt-B,  Hir. 

(2.— Tlu'u,  I  HiippoHc,  ht>  loHt  yiO  a  month'/  A.— I  think 
h*'  cuHt  a  little  mure. 

y.— He  ate  Iwart.v,  did  he?      A.— I  judge  alioiit  fll. 

(i.— Did  tlie>  do  anvthing  more?  A.— No,  sir;  that  Ih  all. 
20  Q.— What  did  .vou  do?  A.— W«'  couldn't  tind  Hitka,  ko  wu 
eainu  Inmie. 

Q.— Did  you  look  very  hard  ftu-  her?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — HoniethiuK  wrong  with  the  ehroiioineter?  A. — With 
1h«>  com  pa  MS. 

Q. — Y'ou  could  not  find  Kitka?      A.— No,  nir. 

Q.— Did  you,  as  a  matter  of  fact A.— The  captain  told 

me — I  do  not  know  whet  her  he  could  find  it  or  not.  I  was 
not  supposed  to  know. 

Q. — I  suppose  you  have  u  kind  of  general  idea  he  might 
30  have  found  it  if  he  hud  tried  very  hard.  A.— Probably  he 
would. 

Q. — He  did  ni»t  find  it?      A.— No,  sir;  he  did  not. 

ti. — Did  you  leave  Itehring  .Sen  at  once?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

y. — Did  you  get  any  more  seals?  A. — Yes,  sir;  we  got  a 
few  more. 

<l. — What  did  you  do  with  the  nnin  you  had  on  board?  A. 
— We  did  not  do  anything  in  particular  with  him. 

Q. — Did  he  do  any  work?    A. — No,  sir. 

ii. — When  did  you  leave  the  Sea?  A. — We  came  through 
^     the  pass  on  thy  1st  day  of  August. 

ii. — Having  been  seized  on  the  2!»th  of  July?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

(). — And  you  did  some  sealing  outside  of  the  Hea?  A. — 
No,  inside. 

Q. — And  vou  onlv  had  two  davs  to  do  il  in?  A. — That  is 
all. 

(/. — Did  this  geulleiuau  from  the  I'niicd  Slates  help  you  to 
seal?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — I  sujijiose  that  will  go  against  his  board,  will  it?  A. — 
'^  es,  I  suppose  so. 

Q. — Was  he  u  good  shot?  A. — He  just  went  out  in  the 
boat. 

Q. — Did  you  make  him  row?  A. — He  went  out  just  as 
a  pleasure  trip. 

Q. — So  that  you  were  seizeil  on  the  2!)tli,  and  you  went  out 
from  Behring  Sea  through  what  pass?  A. — TTnimak  I'ass,  on 
the  tlrst  day  of  August. 

Q. — Did  you  intend  to  stay  longer  than  that?  A. — Y'es, 
sir;  until  tlie  first  day  of  September. 

Q. — Row  many  of  those  seals  had  vou  caught  in  Rehring 
Sea.  do  you  remember?  A. — The  amount  I  stated,  eight  hun- 
dred and  something. 

Q. — Were  those  all  caught  in  Hehring  Sea?      A. — Y'os,  sir. 

Q. — None  of  them  on  the  way  up?      \. — No 

Q. — Did  you  get  any  on  the  way  up?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — How  many,  do  you  remember?  A. — No,  I  don't  re- 
member the  exact  number. 


50 


60 


719 


(W.  1>.  ItvciH-ninct.) 

Q.— TIhtc'  wi'if  fight  liuiidrtMl  and  HuiiielhiiiK  tiiiiKlil  in 
lt«*lirinK  Hfu?      A. —  Vi-h,  hIi-. 

t^.— Wlnit  Imtl  you  done  willi  the  hoiIh  you  .  uglit  on  flu* 
way  up  to  lU'liiiuK  Hta?  A.— Wo  put  tluMP  .  board  tlic 
Hfiioohfr  "Waiidorci"  at  Sand  I'oiut. 

Kl. — Ho  tluit  you  did  not  take  into  Uolirini;  Hca  any  McaJH 
from  outHid*';  iiiid  all  llif  s<-alH  on  tin-  v«sHt'l  that  w*'i(>^  st'i/.ed 
,j,    were  takfu  in  HclirinK  Hea  that  m-aHon?      A. — Yob,  »ir. 

Q. — How  waa  the  weatliL-r  for  Mealing  wlii-n  you  wi*r(.'  m-iz- 
ed  and  for  a  few  days  afU'r?  A. — Very  nici';'  th«'  uoxt  day 
it  waH  calm. 

(). — \V«'II,  you  caught  hoiuo  wcaiii  tiuil  day?  A. — Y»'B,  that 
waH  the  day  wi-  caught  llicni 

(\. — Mow  many  did  you  ca(ch  liiat  day?  A. — I  d»)n't  re- 
member. 

Q. — How  did  you  nuinage  to  catcli  tlieni?      A. — Some  of 
the  HailorM  had  a  couple  of  ritlcH  in  tiu'  forecuHtle. 
20       '>■ — You  only  had  a  t'oujde  of  rifles?      A. — Xo,  there  wuh 
only  three  boats  out. 

(i. — You  had  onlv  two  ritl»'H? 

Q- 
A.- 

(l. — I'iVen  with  rilles,  wliat  did 
member  the  nundter,  it   wuh  Ichn 


A.— Three  ritles. 
-Am  a  nnittei'  of  fact,  do  you  use  ritlcH  much  for  Healing? 
-Not  at)  a  rule,  we  don't. 


yon  get? 
than  no. 


-I  don't  re- 


40 


Q. — Much  h'HS?  A. — Much  Ichh?  I  don't  recolit'ct  ex- 
actly. 

Q. — >Vas  that  in  one  day.  Did  you  seal  more  than  one 
3°    day  befor«'  yon  went  out  of  the  St-a?  A. — No,  I  don't  think  bo. 

K.\. — .\nd  you  got  Hometliing  under  tifty?  .\. — Uchh  than 
fifty;  I  don't  reineuil»er  the  numlxT. 

Q. — H  you  had  had  your  proper  ajtparatiis  or  guuH  and 
proper  ammunition,  what  was  the  diance  (»n  that  very  day 
to  catch  senls?  A. — We  would  luive  caught  at  least  one  liun- 
dre«l  and  fifty. 

Q. — And  the  day  afier  tluit,  the  day  you  wi>nt  out  of 
Heliring  Sea,  what  was  that  like?  A. — T  don't  remember  the 
weather. 

Q. — And  of  <ourse  yon  know  nothing  about  the  weather  in 
Hehring  Sea  after  you  left  that  year?     A. — No,  sir. 

Mr.  DickinKon: — Of  course  it  is  understood  in  all  these  mat 
ters  that  the  (piestion  of  probable  catch  is  actually  reserved 
for  the  nrgum«>nt.  That  is  the  "Pathtindor"  case  and  not  the 
'Tarolena.'' 

Mr.  IN'ters: — 1  understand  that  olijedion;  it  ii.  reserved  all 
through. 

The  Commissioner  on  tlie  part  <if  the  United  States: — In 
all  cases. 

Mr.  Peters: — It  is  finally  understood  that  that  obje<-tion  is 
to  be  argued  after  we  are  all  through,  the  same  as  all  the 
main  points.  (To  witness):  Q. — Can  j'ou  tell  me  what  time 
of  the  day  you  were  seized?      A. — It  was  about  11  o'chM'k. 

Q. — In  the  forenoon?     .\. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Did  yon  catch  any  seals  that  morning?  A. — I  don't  re- 
60  member.  \Ve  had  a  boat  out  for  a  while  and  it  came  aboard 
again,  but  I  dtm't  rememlu'r  whether  we  caught  any  seals  or 
not. 

Q. — Can  yon  tell  me  how  many  days  yon  had  lowered  in 
Behiing  Sea  that  year  before  yon  were  seized?  A. — I  cannot 
tell  you. 

Q.' — What  weath(M'  had  you  had  in  .Tulv?  A. — Well,  calm 
weathei',  say  abont  two-thirds  of  the  time  sealing;  it  was 
what  we  call  fair  weather. 


50 


li 


lilr 


it 


11 


Hi. 


Till 


B' 


iiiiiii 


lO 


20 


30 


^-fHHiBWf,' 


780 

(W.  D.  B.ViMS— Direct.) 

^.-  -Prom  your  expeiieuce  in  Hehring  Sea,  which  is  the 
finest  month,  July  or  Anjjnst?  A. — Do  you  mean  for  weath- 
er or  cntehinj?  seals? 

Q.— We  will  take  the  weather  first.  A.— Well.  I  think 
July  is  a  little  better  weather. 

Q. — How  is  it  for  catehinfj  seals?  A. — AuRUst  is  the  best 
month. 

Q. — Is  that  your  exiKM-ience?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Why  do  you  say  it  is  better  in  August  than  July?  A. 
— W»'ll,  fnmi  the  faet  that  a  majority  of  the  seals  in  July  are 
on  the  islands  pupping,  having  their  young,  and  in  August 
they  are  through  having  their  young  and  they  are  su('klin<; 
and  they  come  off  and  sleep  in  the  open  waters. 

Q. — Your  exi>erience  is  that  they  are  more  plentiful  in 
August  than  July?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  as  regards  weather,  you  say  it  is  not  (juite  so  fine? 
A. — The  weather  is  a  little  finer  in  July  than  in  August. 

Mr.  Byers  was  also  examined  relative  to  the  seizure  of  the 
"Pathfinder"  in  1800,  Claim  No.  21,  by  consent  of  counsel. 

Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q. — Were  you  on  board  the  "Pathfinder"  the  next  yeai'? 
A. — No,  sir. 
Q. — W<*re  you  in  Rehring  Sea  in  ISOO?    A. — Yes.  sir. 
Q.— On  what  vessel?    A.— On  the  "Triumph." 

Mr.  Warren :— Which  "Triumph"?  A.— The  big  "Tri 
umph." 

Q. — As  a  fact,  you  know  notlung  about  the  circumstances 
of  her  seizure,  not  l)eing  with  her  in  1890?    A. — ^^o,  sir. 

Q. — Have  you  bwu  in  the  habit  of  fishing  year  after  yeiir 
on  what  is  called  the  coast?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Where  does  that  cojist  ext<'nd  from,  the  part  that  is 
fished  in  the  spring?  A. — It  extends  from  San  Francisco  np 
to  Kodiak  on  the  Alaskan  coast. 

Q. — 'Will  you  tell  me  the  months  that  the  best  sealing  is 
had  on  that  coast?    A. — In  April,  May  and  June. 

Q. — Was  there  any  sealing  before  that  in  March  and  Feb- 
ruary?    A. — Oh.  yes. 

Q. — I  want  you  to  give  the  month  of  March,  whereabouts 
is  sealing  carried  on  in  the  month  of  March?  A. — Well.  I 
do  not  know  exactl,» ;  some  fishing  is  done  south  and  some  oft 
Oai)e  Flattery  and  some  off  to  the  w«'stward. 

Q. — Hut  that  is  the  coast  the  fishing  is  done  on?     A. — Yes. 

Q.— And  they  do  fish  there?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — Did  vou  fish  in  anv  place  in  the  month  of  March,  1800? 
A.— Yes. 

Q. — Where?  A. — I  flslied  on  th<'  coast  of  Vancouver 
Island  and  Queen  Charlotte  Island. 

Mr.  Warren;— In  the  "Triumph"?     .\.— In  the  "Triumj)!!." 

Direct  examination  continued  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q. — Did  you  fish  in  the  months  of  March  and  .\pinl?  A. — 
60  Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  fish  in  the  first  week  of  April  and  last  week 
in  March?    A. — I  can't  say  positive. 

Q. — .\t  all  events,  you  fished  in  April  and  in  March?  \. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — With  any  success?  A. — Fair  success  for  the  season, 
at  that  time. 

Q. — You  cannot  give  me  the  catch  that  you  made  at  those 
times?      A.— No.  sir.      I  presume  It  can  be  had. 


40 


50 


;■  f- 


10 


781 

(W.  D.  B.vers— Direct.      W.  E.  Bakt-r—Direct.) 

Q. — The  flHhiug  on  the  coast  begins  in  February?  A. — 
W«'H,  I  have  went  (»ut  as  early  as  the  20th  of  December  on 
this  coast. 

Q. — In  those  years,  188!)  and  IH!H>.  did  yoti  go  out  as  early 
as  that?  A.— In  1800,  we  left  hew  on  the  28th  December; 
but  we  did  not  commence  op<'rations  until  about  the  lOtli 
January. 

Q. — Then  the  season  would  practically  begin  from  the  end 
of  January?    A. — Yes.  sir;  along  in  January. 

Q. — And  end  some  time  in  June?    A. — Yes. 


30 


Wentworth  E.  Baker  was  called  as  a  witness  on  the  part 

20  of  (h'eat  Bntaih,  having  biH'u  already  duly  sw«>rn,  and  was 

examined  out  of  ord«»r  by  cons«*nt,  Dec,«Mnber  17,  18J)H,  as  to 

Claim  21,  the  "Pathfinder,"  and  his  testimony  is  printed  here 

for  convenience. 

Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Teters: 

Q. — I  want  to  ask  you  with  regard  to  the  ''Pathtinder''  for 
1800,  (^laim  No.  21.  Do  you  rememiuT,  ('aptain  Baker,  the 
month  of  March,  1890?  Will  you  be  kind  enough  to  look  at 
your  book  and  turn  to  the  last  entry  you  have  for  the  montli 
of  March,  1890?    A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  is  the  last  enfry  you  have  in  the  month  of 
March,  1890?    A.— 30th. 

Q. — What  does  it  state?    A. — Nine  seals. 

il. — Now,  I  want  to  ask  you  if,  shortly  before  that  last 
entry  was  made,  you  had  been  to  Neah  Bay?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Van  30U  tell  me  betwi'en  what  dates  y«>u  were  in  Neali 
Bay?    A. — Between  that  and  April  2nd. 

Q. — As  a  matter  of  fact  you  were  in  Neali  Bay?  A. — Yes, 
40  sir. 

Q.— Did  vou  see  the  "Pathfinder"?    A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q._What  was  the  "Pathfinder"  in  Neah  Bay  for?  A.— 
She  was  there  for  repair.    She  was  there  to  repair  a  rudder. 

(/. — You  saw  that,  did  you?    A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — You  were  on  board?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Whilst  you  were  on  board  her — I  tliink  you  will  find 
the  date  is  before*  the  30th,  but  tliat  is  no  matter — did  any- 
thing happen  that  same  diiv  to  ihe  "Pathfinder"?  A. — Y«>s, 
sir.  I  was  looking  at  the  date.  I  have  not  got  the  date 
''*'  that  I  went  into  Neah  Bay — it  was  between  the  25th  and  tlie 
30th, 

Q. — You  correct  that  other  statement?  A. — As  near  as  I 
can  rememlH^r  it  was  between  those  days. 

Q. — It  is  between  the  25th  and  30th  you  were  at  Neah  Bay? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  anything  happen  to  the  "Pathfinder"  while  you 
were  thew?    A. — She  was  seized  l\v  the  "Cor win." 

Q. — Did  you  see  the  "Corwin"  thei-e?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Wer«>  you  on  Itoard  the  "Pathfinder"?    A. — Yes.  sir. 

(J. — Before  or  after  slu*  was  seized?  A. — I  was  on  board 
l)efore  alio  was  taken  away. 

Q. —  Biit  had  tlu'  ottlcers  Iuh'u  on  board  of  liei'  l)efoi'«>  you 
went?  A. — Yes,  sir;  I  don't  just  remember  wliether  I  went 
on  board  befcrc  the  officers  went  on  board,  or  after,  but  I 
was  shortly  after  they  went  on  board. 

Q. — Now.  you  went  in  tliere  for  what?  A.— Water  and 
shelter. 


60 


iiii 


PfPf!?^ 


I 


h«. 


lO 


20 


782 

(W.  E.  HiikiT—Din-ct— Cross.) 

Q._Yoii  got  tluMf  wlial  (iini  of  the  dav?  A— Arrivfd  in 
the  I'Vi'uiug. 

Q.— Wlu'ii  did  yon  Icavi'?  A.— I  thiiiii  I  left  the  next 
ulj?ht  01-  the  moniinp;  following.  I  don't  know  which. 

Q. — Yon  were  on  a  sealinjj  trip,  were  ,yon?    A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q. — Now,  wlien  yon  arrived  tliere  in  wliat  stat*'  was  the 
'I'atlilindei"?    AVas  slie  beinj,'  repaiied  or  had  she  been  re- 
pnired?    A. — She  liad  been  repaired. 

Q. — She  was  ready  for  sea?  A. — She  was  all  ready  for 
sea  and  was  jj<'iuK  ^'"'1^  nijjht. 

ii. — Now,  you  were  on  a  sealing  trip  then,  were  you?  A. 
— Yes,  si  I'. 

Q.— On  what  ship?     A.— On  the  "Viva." 
Q. — Will  you  be  kind  enough  to  tell  me  how  far  the  sealing 
grounds  were  from  Neah  Hay?    A. — About  ."iO  miles. 

Q. — l>id  you  often  catch  them  nearer  than  that?  A. — Yes, 
sir.  sometimes  within  ten  miles  of  Flattery. 

Q. — On  that  particular  occasion  did  you  go  from  there  di- 
rectly to  the  sealing  grounds?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Had  you  began  to  seal,  or  when  was  the  next  day  that 
you  sealed  and  caught  seals?  A. — T'le  Vtth  of  July,  the  next 
day  I  got  seals. 

Q. — -Vnd  you  got  how  many?      .'• . — .\i  >  seals. 
Q. — What  was  your  next  day?       \.-    s [hi\  2nd  I  got  three 
of  the  seals. 

Q. — And  your  next  day?      A. — April  4th.;  12  seals. 
Q. — That  was  the  amount  yon  actually    got  between  those 
30   days?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Will  you  be  kind  enough  to  tel!  the  Pommissioners 
what  kind  of  ground  it  is  in  that  particular  part,  is  it  good  or 
bad  grounds  for  sealing  at  that  time  of  the  year?  A. — It 
was  then  considered  the  best  grounds,  that  vicinity. 

Q. — Is  that  the  time  of  the  year  that  you  catch  them  there? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Were  there  other  vessels  hunting  seals  in  that  same 
part  at  that  same  time?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  any  of  them?-     A. — Not  particularly. 
40    I  don't  remember  any  in  particular. 

Q. — .Just  referring  to  the  ground.  You  use  the  words 
"best  ground."  Yon  are  not  referring  to  Behrinr  ^en?  A. — 
I  am  referring  to  the  «oast. 

Q. — That  is  the  best  ground  for  the  coast,  you  i^on\,  ?  A. — 
Yes.  sir,  for  the  coast. 

Q. — How  was  the  weather  during  thi.ie  da.\  tii^  ./<  ;'  fish- 
ed, do  you  remember?  A. — The  weather  was  g<iO(;  as  'iieur 
as  T  can  remember. 

Q. — Does  the  catch  of  seals  made  during  those  da.^s  eisable 
you  to  say  whether  you  lowered  or  not?  A  — Yes,  sir.  we 
lowered  diu'lmr  those  days. 

Q.— On  all  the  days  that  you  have  mentioned?  A. — Yes, 
on  all  the  days. 

Q.— Had  you  an  interest  in  the  "Pathfinder"  at  that  time? 
.\. — No.  sir. 

0. — .Vre  you  interested  in  any  of  the  claims  before  the  Pom- 
niissioii?       A.— No.    sir. 

O. — None  whate 'er?       .\. — None  whatev  : 
O. — It  is  a  fact  that  yon  are  not  int<'ri-  ,(      :'i  iiny  of  the 
claims  before'  (his  convention?  A. — No.  sir. 

Orowcxamiiiafion  by  .>fr.  Lansing: 

Q._raptain,  ;i  wer(>  on  (he  "Viva"  in  isno?  A.— Yes, 
sir. 

Q.—And  wlu.  .  .-ft  (he  on-v  r?  A.— isno?  William  Mun- 
sie. 

Q —Who  owi  fd  tlK-    j'atlitludt'r?"       A.— William  Munsie. 


SO 


60 


/Sj 


(W.  E.  Kalu'i— ('I08H.     ('.  A.  Luiidhfrj,'— Diiccl.) 


ti-— >ViH  ytu  l<»ok  at  your  iiiciiioiiiudiim  book  b.y  wLicL  you 
lix  the  date.  How  do  you  fix  tlio  date  from  the  luVinoiandiim 
hook?  What  date  were  you  iu  Neah  liay?  A.— At  the 
time  she  was  seized. 

Q-— How  do  you  know  what  time  she  was  seized?  A.— I 
was  there  at  the  time. 

Q.— When  was  it?  A.— Wetweeu  tiie  L'ath  and  IJOtli;  I 
JO  won't  be  positive  of  the  date  she  was  seized.  I  was  there  at 
tlie  time,  wliatever  date  tliat  was. 

Q-— How  louj,'  were  you  in  Neah  Hay?  A.— I  arrived  in 
the  evening,  and  I  think  I  left  tlie  next  uiglit,  I  wont  be  sure. 

Q.— Wliat  day?  A.— 1  tliink  it  was  on  the  2«th,  I  won't 
be  sure;  the  2fith,  I  think  it  was. 

Q. — Yon  had  white  liunters?      A. — White  hunters,  yes. 

Q. — Who  were  the  men,  do  you  remember?  A. — I  could 
not  name  them  now. 

Q. — ITow  many  boats  did  the  "Pathfinder"  have?  A. — She 
20   had  six  boats,  1  think 

Q. — Inclndinji  the  stern  boat?  A. — No,  sir,  I  think  she 
had  six  boats  nnd  stern  boat;  I  would  not  be  positive. 

Q. — How  many  did  you  have?  A. — 1  had  six  boats  and  a 
stern  boat. 

Q. — In  the  spring  you  shoot  your  seals  sleeping?  A. — 
Yes.  sir,  a  great  many  of  them. 

Q. — Do  you  shoot  a  large  number  sleeping?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — ifore  than  you  do  in  Behring  Sea?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Are  there  more  traveling  in  the  spring  than  there  are 
30   in  Behring  Sea?      A. — I  have  found  them  so. 

Q. — When  did  you  make  up  this  book  that  you  referred  to? 
A. — I  made  it  up  every  night  on  the  ship.  I  didn't  keep  any 
record  of  that  date.  I  only  know  what  day  I  left  in  this 
book — as  near  as  T  can  remember  it  was  between  those  dates. 

Q. — Will  you  examine  your  memorandum  and  see  how 
many  seals  you  took  betw«'en  the  l.^th  of  March  and  the  Ifjth 
of  April  that  year?      A. — (Examining.)  lO.'j  seals. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — The  entries  in    this    memorandum    book 
40   from  which  you  have  given  your  testimony  here  to-day  are 
all  in  pencil,  are  they  not? 

Witness: — All  in  pencil,  sir. 

(Memorandum  books  referred  to  marked  Nos.  .3  and  1  for 
identification.) 


k  m 


•iiiMti 


> :  t 


50 

f'harles  A.  Lundberg,  a  wicness  called  on  b»  half  of  (treat 
Britain  in  (h<'  case  of  the  "Ada,"  Claim  No.  11.  being  duly 
sworn  was  examined,  by  consent  of  counsel,  out  of  order,  De- 
cember IS.  1H!H>,  and  his  testimony  is  printed  here  for  con- 
venience. 

Direct  examination  by  Sir  ('.  II.  Tiipper: 

J-  Q. — You  came  to  Yokohama  in  1H7!).  did  you  not,  Mr.  Lund- 
lu'rg?     A. — Yes.  sir. 

i}. — And  in  IMHl  were  you  scaling  and  otter  hunting?  A. 
■ — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — In  the  schooner  "Alexander?"      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  went  for  the  regular  cruise  that  year?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

<i. — Then  in  IHMU  yoti  were  sealing  and  ott«'r  hunting  in  the 
"Nofth  StiM"  "11  the  Jajmuese  coast,  I  believe?    A,— Yes,  sip, 


V 


i- 


0 


!i 


mm" 
piiiil ! ' 


t|I 


i    ' 


ILIIipfifi   ' 


784 

(C.  A.  T/indberg — Direct.) 

The  (.'ommissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Has 
this  witness  a  personal  tiaim? 

Sir  C  H.  Tupper: — Yes,  I  believe  he  has,  he  was  the  mate 
and  navigator  on  the  "Ada." 

Mr.  IVtei-s: — It  conies  under  the  "Ada"  in  the  same  state- 
ment of  claim. 


10 


Sir  C.  H.  Tupper: — In  1882  you  were  living  where?    A. — 
In  Yokohama. 

Q. — When  did  you  first  know  the  schooner  "Ada"?    A. — 
I  knew  her  when  they  started  to  build  her. 

Q. — Were  you  residing  near  the  place  where  she  was  con- 
structed, the  ship  yard?    A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q. — Where  was  she  built?    A. — In  Yokohama. 
Q.— In  the  fall  of  1882?    A.— Yes,  sir. 
Q. — Did  you  see  her  during  the  course  of  construction  con- 
20  stantly,  every  day?     A. — Yes;  sir,  every  day. 

Q. — What  was  she  built  of?    A. — She  was  built,  the  frame, 
of  kieki. 

Q. — The  keelson  too?    A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q. — It  is  a  hard  wood?    A. — Y«'S,  sir. 
(j. — What  was  she  planked     with?     A. — Either     Oregon 
pine  or  Douglas  fir — some  call  it  Douglas    fir    and    others 
Oregon  pine. 

Q. — What  were  the  cabin  fittings  of  the  "Ariel"?     A. — 
Yon  mean  the  wood  work? 
3"       Q.— Yes.     A.— This  kieki. 

Q. — Wliat  style  were  these  fittings?     A. — Polished. 
Q. — ^Polished  and  hard  wood?    A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q. — Any  brass  furnishings?     A. — Well,    there    was    bi-ass 
fittings,  yes,  sir. 
Q. — Was  she  well  upholstered?    A. — She  was. 
Q. — What  sort  of  fastenings?    A. — Copper   fastenings    to 
her  water  lines. 
Q. — Generally  speaking  what  kind  of  work  was  done  on 
40  that  vessel?    .\. — As  good  as  could  b<>  done. 

Q. — And  she  turned  out  what  class  of  vessel?      A. — First- 
class. 

Q. — Do  you  know  wli;il  the  1  iiH  riul  Hjmrs  actually  cost  of 
the  "Ada"?    A. — Yes,  I  heard  the  contract  made. 
Q. — Were  you  present  when  it  was  made?    A. — I  was. 
Q.— What  was  the  amount?    A.— 15,500. 
Q. — Do  you  remember  the  tonnage  of  the  "Ada"?    A. — 
Yes,  sir. 
Q.— What  was  it?    A.— «5.25. 
5°       Q. — British  register?    A. — British  register. 

Q. — Do  you  know  some  other  vessels  that  were  built 
about  that  time  at  Yokohama?  Do  you  know  the  Diana? 
A. — She  was  built  the  jear  before. 

Q. — What  was  her  tonnage?    A. — About  the  same. 

Q.— About  60?  A.— Sixty-two  I  think  it  was.  I  am  not 
sure. 

Q. — What  was  the  cost  of  the  hull  of  that  vessel? 


60 


Mr.  Lansing: — Wait  a  moment,  what  is  his  knowledge? 

Sir  C.  H.  Tupper: — I  asked  him  if  he  knew  any  other  ves- 
sels built  at  Yokohama  about  that  time  and  he  mentions  the 
"Diana."  (To  the  witness: — You  know  what  the  hull  cost  of 
the  "Diana"?    A. — I  know  what  they  told  me. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  think  it  would  be  well  to  know  how  a 
witness  of  this  kind  knows  such  an  important  matter  as  cost. 


20 


785 
(V.  A.  I.iindberg — Dirt'ct.) 

Sir  r.  H.  Tupper: — Vou  were  living  near  the  ship  yard 
when  that  vessel  was  built?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Wliile  these  people  were  doing  the  business?  A. — 
The,v  were  living  with  me. 

Q. — Who  was  the  owner  of  the  "Diana"'?  A. — (Japtain 
I'atterson. 

Q. — Was  he  building  her?    A. — Yes,  sir. 
lo       Q. — Did  you  get  the  infonnation  from  liim?    A. — Yes,  sir, 
from  the  three  of  them. 

Q.— What  was  the  cost  of  the  hull? 

(Objected  to  by  Mr.  Dickinson  as  hearsay  testimony. 
Question  withdrawn). 

Q. — What  did  the  balance  of  the  fitting,  the  running  gear, 
the  hawsers,  and  the  upholstering  of  the  "Ada"  cost.  Do 
you  know?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— How  much?       A.— f2.0()0r 

Q. — You  told  us  that  you  were  present  during  the  construc- 
tion of  that  ship?  A. — I  was  present  wlien  they  made  the 
contract  between  them. 

Q. — These  men  who  were  interested  in  the  vessel  did  their 
business  in  your  hotel?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — In  your  presence?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — You  heard  them  discussing  tlie  matter  from  time  to 
time?  A. — Yes,  sir,  both  in  tlie  liotel,  and  out  in  the  ship 
yard,  where  was  Cook's  office. 

Q. — And  it  was  from  tlie  information  you  got  at  that  time 
30  you  gave  your  answer?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  know  Henry  Cook,  John  Carroll  and  Walter 
Hardy?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Were  these  men  building  the  ship?  A. — Yes,  sir,  and 
Anthony  Cook. 

Q. — Was  there  a  Hardy  captain  as  well  as  shipwright?  A. 
— Hardy  was  tlie  captain  and  part  owner. 

Q. — Did  he  give  his  own  time  to  the  work  done  on  the 
"Ada?"      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — He  attended  to  it  personally?      A. — Yes,  sir. 
40       Q. — Are  you  nure  of  that?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — WlieVe  is  he  to  be  found?  A. — He  is  in  Yokohama,  1 
think. 

Q. — When  did  you  see  him  last  alive?  A. — Seven  years 
ago. 

Q. — When  did  you  hear  from  him?  A. — I  have  not  heard 
from  him  since. 

y. — And  you  do  not  know  he  is  dead  since?  A. — I  cannot 
say. 

Q. — AVhen  you  said  you  thouglit  lie  was  alive  yuo  were  re* 
5^   ferring  to  seven  years'  ago?      A. — Yes,  I  have  not  heard  he  is 
dead. 

y.— Have  you  heard  that  he  is  alive?  A.— No,  I  have 
not. 

Q.— What  you  know  of  him  was  seven  years'  ago?  A.— 
It  was  in  18H7;  I  lived  in  Yokohama  in  1887,  and  have  not 
heard  from  him  since. 

Q.—  You  have  not  heard  from  him,  or  seen  him,  since  1887? 
A.— No. 

Q.— When  did  you  see  Jolin  Carroll  last?  A.— I  did  not 
see  him  since  the  year  before  I  left,  that  would  be  in  188B. 

Q.— You  have  not  seen  John  Carroll  since  1886?      A.— No. 

Q._\Vhpn  did  you  see  Henry  Cook  last?  A.— I  saw  him 
a  few  days  before'  we  left  in  the  month  of  March,  1887. 

Q._no  you  know  where  any  of  these  people  are  now?  A. 
—I  cannot  sav,  I  think  that  Carroll  is  dead,  but  i  cannot  tell. 

Q.— When  you  speak  of  (lie  value  of  the  hull,  brass,  rigging 
and  HO  forth,  what  value  are  you  referring    '        Are  you  re- 

5U 


60 


;ii.' 


(I 


•  ii< 


'i 


786 


ii' 


'I  I'lifji 


10 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


(V.  A.  Lundbiig— Direct.) 

ferrinjr  to  the  cost  at  Y'ukohama  or  the  cost  here?  A. — That 
1  cannot  say.  Tliey  mentioned  so  many  dolhuu  Whether 
tliey  w«'re  dealing  in  jjohl  or  in  Mexican  I  would  not  be  sure. 

(i.— They  spuUe  of  dollars?  A.— Yes,  they  spoke  of  dol- 
hirs  tliere. 

(i.— You  came  to  Victoria  in  this  ship  in  1887?  A.— Yes, 
sir. 

Q. — You  came  omv  on  the  "Ada"  on  her  voyage  from 
Yokohama  to  Victoria?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q- — You  were  connected  with  the  vessel  in  what  way?  A. 
— I  came  over  as  passenger  in  her  to  go  as  mate  and*  hunter 
when  we  got  here  in  Victoria. 

Q. — You  were  in  Victoria  when  she  was  getting  ready  to  go 
to  Behring  Sea?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

(J.— In  what  year?      A.— In  1887. 

Q. — Who  wiis  the  owner.of  her  at  that  time?  A. — Mr. 
Gray. 

Q. — Was  he  iiere  at  tliat  time?  A. — Yes,  sir,  ■  ^  can.e  over 
with  US. 

Q. — Do  you  l;now  anytliing  in  regai-d  to  any  offer  to  pur- 
chase that  sliip  at  Victoria  that  year?      A. — I  do. 

Q. — What  do  you  know?  A. — Well,  Mr.  Savward  offered 
him  19,000  for  her. 

Q.— Offered  whom?      A.— Offered  Mr.  Gray. 

Q. — In  your  presence?  A  -Yes,  we  were  three  together 
walking  up  Jolinson  street. 

Q.— What  did  Mr.  Gray  say  to  that?  A.— He  laughed  at 
him  and  said  that  he  would  not  sell  the  vessel. 

Q.— He  refused  to  take  f!),000?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q.— What  did  he  say?  A.— He  said  "I  do  not  take  f  10,000 
for  her." 

Q. — Was  tlie  ship  ready  for  sea  then?  A. — No,  that  was 
after  we  came  up  from  the  west  coast;  she  was  making  ready. 

Q. — About  what  month?      A. — It  was  in  June. 

Q.— In  1887?      A.— Yes.  sir,  in  the  first  part  of  June. 

Q. — Now  then  had  you  anything  to  do  with  ships  befoi-e 
you  came  to  Yokohama  in  1879?  A. — Before  I  came  to  Yoko- 
hama I  was  a  sailor. 

Q. — When  did  yon  go  to  sea  first?  A. — When  I  was  H 
jears  old. 

Q. — You  were  born  in  Sweeden?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  went  to  sea  in  1879?  A. — Yea,  sir,  and  in  small 
boats  before  that. 

Q. — You  have  b«H'n  to  sen  alt  your  life?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— What  part  of  1887  did  you  join  the  "Ada?"  A.— I 
went  on  board  at  Yokoli'ama  on  th»»  .^th  of  Mai'ch. 

Q. — Under  what  arrangement?  A. — I  made  the  arrange- 
ment the  day  before;  she  had  shipped  a  crew  already,  and 
that  was  how  I  came  to  go  as  passenger  in  her. 

Q. — I'^nder  what  arrangement  did  you  go  on  board  at  Yoko- 
hama? A. — 7  went  on  board  to  go  as  mate,  take  care  of  the 
skins  and  salt  them. 

Q. — T'.iat  was  your  work  on  board?  A. — Yes,  after  we  left 
Victoria. 

Q. — Where  were  you  going  to  hnnt?  A. — On  the  west 
coast,  if  we  had  time. 

Q. — But  the  Behring  Sea  was  your  main  object?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q. — That  arrangement  you  speak  of  was  made  at  Yoko- 
hama?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — When  did  you  leave  Yokohama?      A. — On  J)tli  March. 

Q. — You  came  direct  to  Victoria?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

i-i. — Do  you  remember  when  you  arrived?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

(J.— When?      A,— On  the  Cth  April. 


Tfff 


787 

(C.  A.  I.iindlK'rg — Direct.) 

Q.— What  did  the  'Adir'  do  here?  A.— W«'  hild  her  up  a 
little  while,  we  had  a  little  fixing  to  do  on  her;  she  brolie  her 
gatT  and  some  small  things. 

Q.— \\'hat  did  .vou  get  ready  for?  A.— To  go  down  on  tlie 
West  ("oast. 

Q. — To  do  what?     A.— To  <'at«'li  seals. 

(J. — What  crew  had  you  on  board?     A. — We  went  down  on 
10   tlie  West  Toast  and  got  Indians  to  hunt — there  were     not 
white  hunters  to  be  had. 

Q. — When  you  got  your  Indian  hunters,  how  many  had 
you  all  told  on  the  vessel?  A. — We  had  14  canoes  and  28 
Indians. 

Q. — And  what  crew  had  you  beside?  A. — I  think  we  had 
six  men  with  myself. 

Q. — Does  that  include  the  captain?     A. — No. 

Q. — Who  was  the  captain?    A. — Van  Pelt. 

(J. — How  many  did  you  take  from  Yokohama   on  board? 
'°  A. — Five  white  men. 

y. — Did  you  have  any  hunters?  A. — No,  five  white  men, 
and  four  Japanese. 

Q. — Then  you  went  out  to  the  West  Coast  sealing?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — When  did  you  return  from  that  sealing  trip  on  the 
West  Coast?  A. — We  returned,  I  think,  «m  the  1st  of  June, 
or  at  the  end  of  May,  I  am  not  sure  which. 

Q. — How  many  skins  had  you?    A. — We  had  340. 
,         Q. — What  was  done  with  the  ship  when  you  got  back  from 
the  trip?     A. — W«'  commenced  to  m.'ike  her  leady  foi-  Behr- 
ing  Sea  as  quick  as  we  could. 

Q. — Did  you  keep  these  huntei-s?  A. — No,  some  of  them 
went  back. 

Q. — What  hunters  did  you  get  for  the  Hdiring  Sea  trip? 
A. — Some  of  the  same  Indians  and  some  others. 

Q. — And  how  many  canoes?  A. — Seven  canoes  and  one 
boat. 

Q. — That  was  the  stern  boat?     A. — Yes,  sir. 
40       Q. — How  many  Indian  hunters  did  you  have?     A. — Four- 
teen. 

Q. — How  many  white  hunters?    A. — One. 

Q. — What  was  your  position  on  the  trip  to  Behring  Sea? 
A. — I  was  mate. 

Q. — And  what  else?  A. — I  ship])ed  as  mate  and  hunter, 
but  I  did  not  hunt. 

Q. — When  did  you  sjiil  fnun  Victoria  for  the  Behring  Se"? 
A.— We  sailed  about  the  lOth  or  17th  of  June,  1887. 

Q. — Wheiv  did  you  take  the  Indian  hunters  on?     A. — At 
5^   San  Juan. 

Q. — What  other  name  is  given  to  that  port?  A. — Kat- 
ehina. 

Q. — Where  did  you  put  in  after  leaving  San  Juan  for  th«' 
IMiring  Sea?  A. — We  got  into  a  gale  outside  and  smashed 
three  canoes  and  went  into  T'kulet  to  replace  them. 

Q. — Did  you  rejdace  them?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Then  you  proceeded  on  yttur  voyage?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — When  did  you  enter  Behring  Sea?    A. — On  the  KJth 
60  'I"lv. 

Q. — And  of  tliat  same  year?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  were  seized  on  the  2oth  August,  were  you  not? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— By  what  vessel?     A.— By  the  "Bear." 

Q. — State  briefly  what  happened  on  that  occasion?  A. — 
The  lieutenant  came  on  Ixvird  of  us  and  asked  for  the  ship's 
papers,  and  the  captain  handed  them  to  him ;  then  he  told  uh 
that  we  were  violating  the  laws  of  the  United  States,  and 


a 


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Billlli^ 


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788 

we  thought  we  were  not  ;'he  asked  what  we  were  doing  there, 
and  we  told  him  that  we  were  sealing,  and  the  captain  point- 
ed to  the  flag. 

Q.— What  Hag?    A.— The  English  flag. 

Q. — Where  was  it  flying?     A. — It  was  fl.ving  at  the  mast- 
head.    Wt'  said  we  weiv  on  the  high  seas.     TIh'  oflieer  went 
back  to  the  cutter,  and  reported  to  Captain  Healey,  his  com- 
,0  manding  olHcer.      Shortly  afterwards  he  returned  to  us. 

Q.— What  did  he  do  then?  A. — He  came  back  with  seven 
or  eiglit  men  and  started  in  to  make  ready  to  take  us  in  tow, 
and  told  us  we  were  seized.  ( 

Q. — He  started  to  take  you  in  tow?  A. — He  started  to 
make  ready,  and  I  told  him,  and  so  did  the  captain,  that  our 
boats  were  out,  and  we  asked  him  "Was  he  going  to  leave  the 
men  behind''? 

Q. — What  boats  were  out?    A. — The  canoes  and  the  stem 
boat  were  out;  he  finally  stopped  for  a  while  and  told  us  to 
20  signal  to  the  boats,  which  we  did  right  away. 

Q. — And  you  stayed  until  you  got  the  boats  in?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q. — They  were  out  sealing  at  the  time?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  wlien  the  boats  came  in  what  happened?  A. — We 
got  the  canoes  on  board  and  they  passed  a  line  to  us. 

Q. — How  many  seals  had  the  boats  when  they  were  called 
in  that  time?     A.— Tliey  had  38. 

Q. — How  much  of  the  day's  sealing  was  over  at  that  time? 
A. — It  was  just  half-past  eight. 
30       Q. — In  the  morning?    A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — What  time  had  they  been  out?  A. — They  went  out 
about  six  o'clock,  or  probably  a  few  minutes  before  six. 

Q. — And  at  half-past  eight  they  brought  back  38  seals? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  was  done  to  your  ship  then?  A. — She  was  taken 
in  tow  by  the  "Rear." 

Q. — Were  there  any  of  a  prize  crew  left  on  board?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — How  many?     A. — A  lieutenant  and  three  men. 

Q. — They  remained  on  the  "Ada"?  A. — Yes,  and  the  bal- 
ance went  in  the  boat  back  to  the  shin. 

Q. — Where  did  the  cntt<'r  make  for?     A. — Ounnlaska. 

Q. — You  arrived  at  Ounalaska  subsequently?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q.— What  happened  tliere?  A. — Tliey  anchored  us  there 
for  all  night. 

Q.-  -r>id  tlie  captain  of  the  cutter  say  anvthing  to  your  cap- 
tain? A. — He  did  not  say  anything  that  T  know  of  that  after- 
noon, but  the  next  morning  they  came  and  hauled  us  along- 
side tlie  wharf. 

Q. — Hefore  you  were  hauled  alongside  of  the  wharf,  was 
there  any  conversation  that  you  remember  between  the  cap- 
t.'iin  of  the  cutter  and  ihe  captain?  A. — Yes;  they  took  guns 
and  nionev  and  ev«'rvtliing  from  u.^,  and  put  it  on  board  the 
"Hear." 

Q. — Who  liaiiled  the  scluxuier  alongside  the  wharf?  A.— 
Tlie  crew  of  one  of  tlie  cutters. 

0. — Di.l  the  oflicers  of  the  cutter  take  any  inventory  of  the 
"Ada"  th<^n?  A. — They  searched  the  whole  of  the  vessel 
riurht  throuurli. 

Q. — Did  thev  take  anything  else  other  than  the  arms  and 
money?  A. — Not  that  evening,  hut  when  we  came  alongside 
tlie  wliai-f  tliev  took  the  skins  out  and  the  salt. 

O. — Thev  did  not  take  provisions?     A. — "Vo.  sir. 

O. — When  vou  were  told  tliat  von  would  be  hauled  along- 
side? the  wharf,  was  anything  said  between  your  captain  and 


40 


50 


60 


789 

(C.  A.  Lniulbciji— Diri'ct.) 

theoaptniit  of  Ui«'  riittt*r?    A. — Not  after  we  lanu'  ulougHide. 

Q. — Did  your  cupain  give  up  the  arms  and  inone.v  willing- 
ly?   A. — He  wrote  out  a  protest. 

Q. — That  was  before  the  arms  and  money  were  taken?  A. 
— Yes,  sir,  he  protested  that  notliing  was  to  be  taken  out  of 
the  ship. 

Q- — It  was  after  tliat  that  everything  you  have  spoken  of 
10  '°  regard  to  removal  of  the  arms,  and  money  and  skins  took 
place?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  became  of  the  "Ada's"'  papers?  A.— The  lieu- 
teimnt  took  them  and  kept  them. 

Q— What  happened  to  the  log  book?  A.— That  was  after 
they  had  taken  out  the  skins,  Captain  Healey  stood  on  the 
wharf  and  asked  for  he  log  book;  our  captain  said  that  he 
had  no  log  book  for  the  ship,  but  only  a  iirivate  log.  <'ap- 
tain  Healey  said:  "I  want  to  see  if,"  our  captain  said,  "If 
you  will  give  me  your  word  of  honor  to  give  it  back  to  me,  I 
20  will  get  it  out."  He  said  then,  "Hand  it  here."  My  captain 
told  me  to  go  down  and  get  it,  and  F  lianded  it  to  him,  and 
he  handed  it  to  Captain  Healey. 

Q. — When  did  he  get  it  back?      A. — He  never  got  it  back. 

Q. — Not  that  you  know  of?      A. — No. 

Q. — Did  you  hear  him  ask  for  it?  A. — Both  me  and  my 
captain  asked  the  captain  and  lieutenant  on  board  the  "Bear," 
and  tliey  would  not  give  it  back. 

Q. — Now,  after  staying  in  Ounalaska,  what  was  done  to  the 
ship.      What  were  you  told  to  do?      A. — When  everything 
30   was  out  he  told  the  captain  to  take  her  to  Sitka,  and  the 
crew  refused  to  go. 

Q. — The  crew  of  the  "Ada"  refused  to  take  her  to  Sitka? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  was  done  then?  A. — They  wanted  to  know  who 
was  going  to  pay  for  them  for  taking.her  down  because  it  was 
understood  that  there  was  no  wages  when  the  ship  was  seiz- 
ed. 

Q. — The  crew  knew  that  you  were  told  to  take  the  ship  to 
Sitka,  and  they  refused?      A. — Yes,  sir. 
"^         Q. — Did  your  captain  report  what  they    said    to    Captain 
Healey?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  did  Captain  Healey  say?  A. — He  pointed  over 
to  the  other  vessels  seized  the  year  before,  and  he  said,  "Do 
you  see  those  three  rotten  Britih'i  hulks  there?  Take  her 
down  to  Sitka,  or  else  I  will  haul  ler  over  there,  and  let  her 
rot,  and  I  will  put  your  crew  on  the  bench,  and  take  you 
down  in  one  of  the  cutters  as  a  prisoner  to  Sitka." 

Q.— What  effect  had  that?  A.— Well,  I  stood  on  the  deck 
50  and  heard  it,  and  the  captain  said  to  the  crew,  "Do  you  hear 
what  that  man  says?  What  are  we  to  do?"  There  was 
nothing  said  for  awhile,  and  they  consulted  amongst  them- 
selves, and  the  captain  came  again  and  asked:  "Are  you  wil- 
ling to  go,  or  what  is  it  going  to  be?  They  said  they  would 
go  to  Sitka. 

Q. — A-itor  that  was  communicated  to  them  they  agn'ed  to 
go  to  Sitka?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— What  became  of  the  Indians?      A.— They  were  all  on 
board  of  the  "Ada.' 
60       Q.— Did  they  go  from  Ounalaska  to  Sitka?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q.— In  the  "Ada?"      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q._Was  there  no  offlcer  of  the  United  States  on  board  the 
"Ada"  on  that  voyage  from  Ounalaska  to  Sitka?  A.— There 
was  a  petty  officer  from  one  of  the  cutters,  but  I  do  not  know 
what  he  was. 

Q.— How  did  yon  get  out  of  Ounalaska?  A.— We  were 
towed  out  by  the  "Bear?" 


^^ 

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fiii;: 


m' 


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20 


30 


40 


so 


60 


790 
(C.  A.  I.nntlhori; — Diivct.) 

Q.— How  many  days  passage  was  it  bi'twecn  Oiumlaska 
and  Mitka?      A. — I  think  it  was  nine  days. 

Q. — Now,  at  Sitku,  were  you  allowed  to  go  on  shore  when 
you  pot  there?  A.— Not  at  first,  the  captain  went  ashore, 
and  the  crew  stayed  on  board. 

(i. — What  became  of  the  Indians?  A. — They  were  all  told 
to  stay  on  board  for  a  while  until  we  had  got  further  orders. 

ii. — How  lon^i;  were  yo>i  and  the  crew  compelled  t()  stay  on 
board  of  your  ship  at  Sitka?  A. — I  think  it  was  four  or  Ave 
days,  or  something  like  that.  The  captain  told  me  that  there 
were  no  charg.js  against  the  "Ada,"  and,  of  course,  he  told 
that  to  me  when  he  came  on  board. 

Q. — In  whose  charge  was  your  vessel  at  Sitka?  A. — There 
was  a  special  policeman  on  board. 

Q. — And  he  was  back  and  forth  from  the  vessel?  A. — 
He  stayed  there  mostly  all  the  time,  he  may  have  gone  on 
shore  sometimes. 

Q. — After  four  or  Ave  days  did  you  get  liberty  to  go  ashore? 
A. — The  captain  came  and  told  us  that  we  were  to  quit,  it, 
and  that  he  was  going  away;  he  said  that  the  crew  was  ac- 
quitted but  the  vessel  had  to  remain. 

Q. — How  long  was  that  after  you  had  been  at  Sitka?  A.. — 
About  four  or  live  days,  or  a  week;  it  was  when  the  first 
steamboat  with  mail  came  up. 

Q.— He  said  that  he  was  going  away.  Why  did  you  not 
go  away?      A. — We  could  not,  w<i  had  nothing  to  go  with. 

Q. — You  were  unable  to  go  away?      A. — I  was. 

Q. — Did  you  apply  for  means  to  get  away?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

(J. — To  whom?      A.— We  appliefl  to  the  Governor,  or  I  did. 

Q. — And  you  were  unable  to  get  away?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— How  long  were  you  actually  at  Sitka?  A.— We  were 
there  until  the  25th  September. 

Q._Where  did  you  live  while  there?  A.— We  lived  on 
board. 

Q.— I  suppose  that  after  the  four  or  Ave  days  were  up  you 
could  stay  on  the  ship,  or  go  ashore?  A.— We  could  go  any- 
where we  liked. 

Q.— What  food  did  you  eat?  A.— We  were  eating  of  the 
ship's  food. 

Q. — Your  own  ship?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — While  the  ship  was  there  were  any  of  the  provisions 
taken  away?      A. — 1  seen  some  taken  ashore. 

Q. — Who  took  them  ashore?      A. — This  constable. 

Q. — What  was  his  name?      A. — .laycocks  or  Hitchcocks. 

Q. — You  saw  him  taking  provisions?  A. — Yes,  but  not 
when  he  was  on  duty — it  was  afterwards. 

Q. — It  was  after  his  guard?  A. — Yes,  after  we  were  liber- 
ated. 

Q. — After  you  were  liberated  you  saw  him  taking  provision* 
from  the  vessel?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Were  yun  able  to  shoot  any  deer  for  food  when  you 
were  there?  A. — No,  we  asked  for  the  loan  of  a  gun  and 
we  could  not  get  one. 

Q. — You  could  not  get  even  the  guns  to  shoot  food  with? 
A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Were  you  taken  before  the  judge?  A. — No — Oh  yes, 
we  were  too!  !  forgot  when  I  answered  first.  There  was 
some  questions  asked,  but  I  was  not  sworn. 

Q. — But  you  were  before  the  judge  and  court?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q. — Did  you  understand  what  was  being  done?  A. — 1  do 
not  remember. 

Q. — Who  took  you  before  him?  A. — 1  was  sent  for  to  go 
in  there,  one  of  the  marshals  came. 


"9» 


10 


20 


30 


(('.   A.   l-iiiidhfin— I>ir<'(f.) 

Q-— Voii  I'iiniiol  (ell  whiif  wiis  doiu-  i|i  (lie  court?  A.— 
No,  I  ctinnut  tell;  1  wn8  asked  hoiiu'  <|U(>HtionH. 

Q- — After  the  week  liad  nin  out  >ou  could  not  m't  uwny  tin 
jou  hud  no  means  to  pa.v  your  pHHuage?      A.— No  sir. 

().— How  did  yon  >,'et  away?  A.— We  finally  >,'ot'away  on 
the  "Rush."      We  had  to  >;o  and  make  application  to  him. 

().— To  whom?      A.— To  the  court  jud^e— l>awm)n. 

Q— What  did  he  tell  you?  A.— lie  told  uh  that  we  could 
Ket  away  on  the  "KuhIi,"  but  he  did  not  know  when  Hhe  wa« 
going;  that  was  after  we  had  stayed  on  board  ten  days,  we 
liad  no  more  provisions  at  all.  I  went  up  and  asked  him 
how  it  was  going  to  be,  because  the  Indians  were  running 
after  me.  I  had  no  control  over  anything  as  long  as  it  was 
that  way,  I  did  not  know  who  took  the  things  away,  I  had  no 
comnuuid  over  the  crrew. 

Q. — Nor  over  the  provisions?      A. — Over  nothing. 

Q. — What  did  he  do?  A. — He  said  there  were  enough  pro- 
visions on  board  her  to  last  us  for  as  long  as  we  were  liere. 
I  said  I  did  not  know  where  tlie  provisions  were,  but  that 
tliere  was  no  more  on  board  of  tlie  schooner.  There  was 
some  buscuit  in  the  hold  that  tlie  Indians  had,  and  then  we 
hud  to  sell  our  clothes,  what  little  we  had. 

y. — You  had  to  sell  your  clothes?  A. — We  sold  everything 
we  had  right  down  to  our  boots. 

Q. — Hefore  you  got  away?    A. — Yes. 

y.— And  finally  the  "Rush"  took  you?    A.- Yes,  sir. 

(i.— When  was  that?     A.— The  25th  September. 

y. — Wlien  did  you  arrive  here?  A. — I  urrived  on  tlie  4th 
October. 

ii. — I  omitted  to  ask  you  iu  regard  to  tlie  scaling.  Can  you 
tell  me  how  many  days  you  were  ac.tual'y  sealing  during  the 
time  you  were  in  Itehring  Sea  in  August  and  July,  1887? 
A. — I  know  how  nuiny  full  days  we  had,  but  I  do  not  know 
how  many  short  days. 

(i. — How  many  full  days  had  you?    A. — We  had  twenty- 
one  full  days,  or  rather,  1  think,  it  was  twenty  full  days  and 
one  thnt'-ciuarters  day.     The  balance  would  be  an  hour  and  a 
40  half  or  so  when  we  would  lower  the  boats  and  get  a  seal  or 
two. 

y.— That  is  up  to  the  25th  August?    A.— ""es.  sir. 

g.— When  did  you  enter  the  Sea?  A.— Ab  'it  the  Ittth 
day  of  July. 

Q. — How  many  seals  did  you  exi)ect  to  ratch  at  the  rate 
you  were  taking  tliem  that  season?  A. — I  (-alculated  to  get 
3,t)()t)  seals  that  season. 

Q. — At  the  rate  you  were  taking  them  what  would  you 
likely  have  caught?  A. — Well,  we  figured  out  after  we  were 
seized  that,  if  we  kept  on  as  we  were  going,  the  way  the 
weather  was  that  year,  and  t1 .  way  the  weather  generally  is, 
we  should  have  another  tlu  •'  .nil  after  we  wei-e  seized. 

Q. — Another  thousand  outside  of  the  1,876?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  sort  of  sealing  weather  was  it  when  you  were 
seized?    A. — It  was  fine,  very  good. 

Q. — What  sort  of  weather  was  it  that  very  day  that  yon 
were  being  towed  to  Ounalaska,  and  up  to  the  time  you  got 
there?    A. — Very  nice  weather. 

Q. — What  sort  of  weather  was  it  from  Ounalaska  to  Sitka? 
A. — There  was  pretty  fair  weather. 

Q. — Good  sealing  weather?  A. — Yes,  sir;  we  had  a  cou- 
ple of  days  of  bad  weather. 

Q. — Had  you  anything  particular  to  do  with  the  provisions 
on  the  "Ada"?  A.— W^ell,  I  was  looking  after  the  cook,  and 
the  interpreter,  in  fact  I  had  charge  of  everything  that  was 
In  her. 


50 


60 


I! 


1  -i  i 


.1  I 


79» 


.■li|i|j..ji| 


liHI 


(('.   A.   hiiiulboiK— Dii'crt— rroBB.) 

Q. — Vou  liu<l  <liiii'Ki'  of  tliv  proviHioiiH?  A. — Yen,  Bir,  both 
proviHionH  and  nnuniinitioii. 

i}. — When  .v«»u  w«Mv  tak»'n  on  llic  'J5(h  .Vu^iUHt,  niv  yon  nltlf 
to  Hiiy  how  long  thcHe  proviHionH  would  liavt>  li«-ld  out  hnd 
j'ou  btK?n  left  nlone?  A. — We  looked  over  the  provisiona  just 
a  couple  of  duyH  before  we  were  ueized  to  hw  how  nineh  there 
were;  we  took  the  Indian  chief  to  look  over  the  Indian  beef 
,Q  to  see  how  long  it  would  last,  and  wo  calculat  i^d  that  it  would 
Iu8t  to  the  lat  October. 

Q. — How  long  did  you  propose  to  remain  in  the  Sea  that 
BeaHon?    A. — I'ntil  the  middle  of  September. 

(J. — You  found  proviHionH  there  to  last  you  for  that  long? 
A. — Yes,  until  the  Ist  Ot-tober. 

GrosB-examinntion  by  Mr.  Lansing: 

Q. — Mr.  Lundberg,  wlien  did  you  arrive  in  Hitka?  A. — We 
arrived  in  Hitka  on  the  5th  Sejrtember 
20  Q- — And  you  stayed  on  board  your  ship  how  long?  A. — 
We  stayed  on  Imard  the  shiii — well.  I  was  on  board  the  ship 
myself  all  the  time  I  was  there,  except  a  couple  of  nights 
ashore.  1 

(^. — You  stayed  there  until  the  provisions  gave  out,  did 

you?    A. — Yes,  we  eat  all  the  provisions  until  they  gave  out. 

Q. — And  the  provisions  gave  out,  when?     A. — After     we 

had  been  there  ten  days,  I  cannot  exactly  say  how  many  days, 

but  about  that. 

Q. — How  much  provisions  did  the  policeman  take  on  shore? 
30  A. — I  did  not  sec  him  take  much — he  took  some  rice. 

Q. — When  did  lie  take  them?  A. — 1  cannot  tell  how 
much  it  was;  I  seen  him  take  soir      'ce  out  of  the  hold. 

Q. — How  much?     A. — He  too  uple  of  "mattes"  at  one 

time. 

y. — What  else?    A. — He  took  some  butter. 

Q. — How  much?    A. — I  cannot  exactly  tell  you. 
Q. — How  do  you  know  he  took  any?      A. — I  was  on  the 
poop,  and  I  saw  it  pass  «)ver  the  rail;  he  went     down     the 
hold,  he  had  another  man  to  help  him. 

Q. — Do  you  know  what  it  was  he  jmssed  over  the  rail? 
A. — Yes,  sir,  rolled  up  in  bags  and  something  or  anothe;-, 
there  was  beef  and  rice  and  some  butter,  Imt  I  cannot  ex- 
actly say. 

ii. — How  many  pounds?    A. — I  did  not  say  it. 

Q. —  \bout  how  much?    A. — I  cannot  tell  you. 

Q. — Have  you  no  idea?  A. — He  had  it  in  a  sack,  there  was 
about  lalf  a  sack  full  of  beef,  that  would  weigh  about  7r> 
lM)unds. 

Q. — How  many  sacks  did  you  '".ave  on  board  when  you  got 
to  Riv'ka?  A. — We  did  not  have  it  in  sacks,  but  he  passed  it 
out  in  siicks. 

Q. — How  many  pounds  of  bwf?    A. — A  barrel  and  a  half. 

Q.— About   ;«)(»   |>ounds?     A.— About   that. 

Q. — He  took  KM)  pounds?  .\. — I  do  not  know,  I  did  not 
wei^h  it,  it  may  have  been  less. 

Q. — Do  you  know  anything  about  it?  A. — I  know  no 
more  than  I  saw  them  puss  the  sack  ashore. 

Q. — How  did  you  know  it  was  b«'ef?  A. — I  knew  it  be- 
cause I  saw  the  pickle  running  out  of  the  bag. 

Q.— What  else  did  he  take?    A.— Some  butter. 

Q. — How  much?    A. — I  do  not  know. 

Q.— What  did  he  <ake  that  away  in?  A.— He  took  it  in  a 
bucket,  about  half  a  bucket  full. 

Q.— What  kind  of  a  bucket?  A.— He  took  it  in  an  ordin- 
ary ship's  bucket. 

Q- — What  else?  .\.— I  did  not  see  him  take  anything  else 
that  time. 


40 


SO 


60 


lo 


30 


30 


40 


50 


60 


79? 
{(\  A.  I.uikIIm-I'K — rroHH.) 

Q.— That  iH  all  he  took?     A— Tliut  Ik  all  Uv  tu«»k  that  time. 

Q. — 1)1(1  you  H»'«>  liiiu  afjain?  A. — No.  but  I  lii'ard  thein 
kay  thai  he  was  back  and  forward  for  provisiona. 

Q. — You  nay  that  you  \v«'n'  tht'n>  youiwlf  all  thj*  timo? 
A. — No.  I  WUH  UHhurc  Moiiit'tiiiieH. 

Q. — Your  provisionH  gave  out  ten  davH  after  you  were  nt 
Sitka?    A.— YeB,  sir. 

Q. — What  did  you  wll  to  pt  proviNionM?  A. — I  Hold  two 
coats  and  a  Huit  of  clotheH,  a  pair  of  boots  and  oilskins. 

Q. — Did  they  come  out  of  the  slop-chest?  A. — No,  I  did 
not  have  charge  of  that. 

(J. — What  be<'ame  of  these  things?     A. — I  do  not  know. 

Q. — How  much  money  did  the  captain  liavo  with  him?  A. 
— That  I  cannot  tell  you,  I  do  not  think  the  captain  had  very 
much  money. 

Q. — How  much  did  you  get  in  advanc<'?  A. — Do  you  mean 
in  Victoria? 

Q.— Yes,  A.— I  had  |50  in  advance. 

Q.— Did  you  have  any  of  that  left?  A. — No,  I  did  not 
carry  money  to  sea. 

Q.— You  spent  it  all?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — Did  the  captain  carry  money?  A. — Yes,  he  carried 
money. 

Q. — What  became  of  that?  A. — He  bought  three  canoes 
for  It  to  begin  with,  and  what  was  done  with  the  balance  I 
cannot  say. 

Q. — Did  yon  ask  him  for  any  money  at  Ounalaska  or  Sitka? 
A. — I  asked  Imn  for  money,  but  lie  told  me  he  had  none. 

Q. — He  went  away  on  the  steamer?  A. — Yes,  he  went 
away  on  the  steamer.  He  came  and  told  me  he  was  going. 
I  asked  him  if  I  could  not  get  rid  of  the  crew  on  the  same 
conditions  he  was  going  down.  I  asked  him  if  he  had  any 
money  left,  to  give  me  some,  he  said  he  had  none.  I  asked 
him  then,  how  he  got  down  without  money;  he  said:  "I  gave 
an  order  on  my  owner."  1  asked  him  if  he  could  get  us  down 
the  same  way;  he  said  he  had  tried  and  could  not. 

Q. — Now,  we  will  go  back  to  Yokohama.  How  many  ves- 
sels do  you  know  were  purchased  there? 

Sir  C.  H.  Tupper: — I  drop])ed  my  questions  about  the 
"Diana"  and  the  "Penelope." 

Mr.  Lansing: — Very  well  I  will  not  ask  you  about  that. 

Q. — Where  was  it  you  say  the  contract  for  the  "Ada"  was 
signed?  A. — When  she  was  built?  In  the  hotel.  In  the 
little  room. 

Q. — Did  you  read  that  contract?      A. — No. 

Q.— You  do  not  know  what  was  In  it?  A.— It  was  read 
out. 

Q.— It  was  all  read  out?      A.— It  was  all  read  out. 

Q.— Did  you  sign  it  as  a  witness?  A.— No,  sir.  but  just 
standing  there  listening  to  it. 

Q. — What  were  yoti  doing  in  there?  A.— We  were  in  there, 
and  had  a  glass  of  wine  over  it  after  it  was  through. 

Q.— Wha:  kind  of  money  was  in  it?  A.— I  do  not  know 
exactly,  he  mentioned  dollars — it  was  ^B.-'iOO. 

Q._lWhat  kind  of  dollars?      A.— They  did  not  say. 

Q._There  are  two  kinds  of  dollars  in  Japan?  A.— There 
are  three  kinds. 

Q._They  did  not  say  what  kind  the  price  was  to  be  in?  A. 
Not  as  I  remember. 

Q.__They  did  not  have  any  gold  dollars,  did  they?  A.— 
They  generally  made  their  contracts  in  gold  on  such  a  basis. 

q"._ Would  it  not  have  been  in  pounds  sterling  if  they  made 


I  ! 


I? 


m 


!  5i 


'llj'ljl 


,1,  I 


794 
{('.  A.  LiiiMltu'r^; — ('ross.) 

il  in  {,'1(1(1?      A. — No,  Ain'.'iicaii  jjold    if    tlu-.v     inade    it     in 
gold. 

(i. — Hut  tlu'  contriKl  did  not  mention  jjold?      A. — I  do  not 
tliiniv  it  did,  I  do  not  rcnu  inlu>r. 

Q. — V(Mi  know  it  Wiis  in  silver,  don'l  vou?      A.— I  do  not 
linow  wlietlier  i:   was  in  <{<ild  or  silver,  or  paper. 

il — Vou  heard  the  contniet  read?      A. — Yes. 
lO       ii- — And  yon   cannot   renieniber  tliat?       A. — I    eannot   re- 
member tliat. 

<i. — Do  yon  linow  what  Mr.  (Sray  paid  for  the  '-Ada?"  .\. 
— \o,  I  do  not. 

Q. — Von  did  not  see  that  contract?      \. — \o. 

Q. — Von  only  saw  (he  cimtract  for  bnildinn?  A. — I  saw 
the  contract  for  bnildinjj:,  ('a|)tain  Hardy  made  the  contract. 

Q. — Did  yon  hear  how  much  Mr.  (Sray  paid  for  the  "Ada?" 
A. — No.  he  only  bon<rht  part  of  her,  anyway,  I  think. 

y. — How  lunch  did  lie  pay  for  the  part?      A. — I  think  he 
20   bought  first  one-third,  and  then  I  think  he  bought  out  an- 
i  :her  third. 

Q. — Do  you  know  how  much  lie  paid  f(»r  the  one-third?  A. 
I  do  not. 

Q. — Did  you  hear  anything  about  it?  A. — No,  I  don't 
think  I  heard.      They  had  it  between  themselves. 

Q. — Do  yon  know  how  much  he  jiaid  for  the  second  interest 

he  bought  in  the  boat?      A. — \o.  I  only  heard  it  said  that  he 

had  to  i)ay  a  good  deal  more  for  (he  second  one-third  than 

he  did  for  the  (irst  one-third,  but  1  do  not  know  more  tlian 

3°   that. 

Q. — Von  know  nothing  about  it?    A. — No. 

Q. — And  have  no  idea?      A. — No. 

Q. — Who  owned  the  other  one-third?      A. — Captain  Pyne. 

Q. — When  she  came  over  here?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Whei'e  is  Captain  I'yne?  A. — I  (hink  he  is  dead;  we 
left  him  in  Yokohanui,  and  I  have  not  seen  him  since  or 
heard  of  him. 

Q. — Who  owns  his  interest?  A. — I  gut'ss  Mr.  (Sray  bouglit 
the  whole  thing  aft«'rwards,  or  got  somebody  here  to  buy  i( 
out.      I  have  not  asked  about  (hat;  1  do  not  know. 

Q.— Who  were  (he  builders  of  (he  "Ada?"  A.— The  build- 
ers were  Marry  t'ook.  .lohn  Carroll  and  Anthony  Cook. 

Q. — Who  was  (he  pui'chaser?  A. — Captain  Hardy  waK 
until  she  g<(t  hei'e. 

(i. — What  names  were  in  (he  contra<t  besid»'s  the  build- 
ers'?      A. — The  builder  was   Harry  Cook. 

y.— Hut  besides  the  builder?  A.— There  was  Hardy  and 
Anthony  Cook  and  .lohn  Carroll. 

(j._T|„.v  were  the  thret'  owners?  A.— They  were  the 
three  owners. 

Q._The  "Ada"  was  built  of  hardwood?  A.— It  was  built 
of  liardwood  and  jtine. 

Q. — Oregon  pine?      A. — Yes,  Oregon  pine  or  Douglas  tir. 

«J.— Where  did  that  wood  come  from  ?  A.— From  (he  oth- 
»'r  side. 

Q —  It  was  carried  over  to  Yokohama  for  the  ".\da?"  They 
did  not  need  to    carry    it    over.       They  had  a  himber  yard 
there.      They  would  get  a  ship  load  over  from  here  and  put 
f'O   it  in  there. 

Q._The  i»ine  whicii  was  i)u(  in(o  her  was  carried  over  from 
this  side?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q.— And  does  this  hardwood  yon  have  sjtoken  of  sland  tlio 
weather  very  well?      A.— Yes.  sir. 

Q._l)i,l  y,)ii  }r,>  over  the  vessel  with  Mr.  Orny  at  (he  limo 
he  purchase<l?       A. — No,  sir. 

(^._n,.  (Mune  over  with  you  on  the  "Ada?"  A.— Yes,  sir; 
but  lu'  owned  her  before  that. 


40 


50 


7<>5 


ro 


30 


(('.  A.  l-iiinlhcrff — Cross.) 

(i. — And  .v«iu  Hiiid  jou  raiiio  over  its  u  passciiyor?  A. — 
VoH  sir.  S'ou  iiaki'd  me  if  I  went  over  lier  when  be  pur- 
ihased:  I  did  not  do  tliat.  I  went  over  tiie  vessel  when  he 
toolv  her  out.  She  was  overhauled  and  caulked,  and  I  was 
dcv.n  to  the  doek  wli  -re  she  laid  in. 

Q.— I>o  vou  think  t!ie  liardwood  ,vo)i  have  mentioned  is  bet- 
ter than  Ore}j(m  pine?  A._Yes,  sir;  it  is  as  pood  as  teak 
and  polishes  as  piod  as  teak. 

y.— And  it  will  stand  the  weather  and  will  stand  the  wa- 
ter?      A. — Yea,  very  well. 

Q. — You  say  you  were  a  pa-ssen^er  on  the  ".Vda"  to  Vie- 
toria?  A. — Well,  T  was  a  passenjjer  I  was  n(»t  i)aid  for 
eominfi  over.  1  just  came  over  as  a  passeiifrer.  Tliat  was 
the  apreenient;  that  I  was  to  conu'  over  and  join  her  here. 

Q. — After  the  seizure,  and  after  yon  returned  to  Victoria, 
did  you  c(>:>tinu(  to  live  here?  .\. — Yes,  I  came  to  live  here. 
I  jiot  money  enough  from  my  ajrent  to  teleRraj)!!  to  my  wife. 
20  She  was  in  Yokohama,  and  I  telegraphed  to  lier  to  sell  out 
everythiiSK  there  and  come  over  here.  I  had  no  money  to 
get  back  v/ith,  and  my  owner  had  none. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  the  "Ada"  coming  down  to  Tort 
Townsend?       A. — I  do. 

Q. — IIow  long  was  that  after  she  had  been  seized?  A. — 
It  was  a  <ouj)le  of  years,  I  think.  I  was  on  Vancouver  Tsf- 
and  at  the  time. 

Q. — Was  it  not  the  next  spring?  A. — 1  don't  think  it  was; 
1  think  it  was  a  good  deal  after  (hat. 

Q.— Was  it  not  in  ISSi)?  A. — I  think  it  was,  but  I  am  not 
sure. 

Q.— Well,  you  came  down  in  the  fall  of  ISHH?  A.— That 
may  be;  1  cannot  say,  but  1  remember  that  she  was  down, 
because  I  h»>ard  of  (he  auction  and  1  was  coming  down  to 
l)uy  her. 

Q. — I  suppose  that  this  wood  you  have  mentioned — kiachi 
wood — would  last  a  long  time?  It  would  not  be  ruined? 
A. — Some  of  it  might,  but  I  do  not  think  hard  lumber  like 
the  kiachi  would  be  injured. 

Q. — Yon  were  coming  down  to  buy  this  ship?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q. — Did  you  go  ovei-  to  Port  Townsend?  A. — No,  we  were 
delayed  in  the  Narrows. 

Q. — You  missed  the  au<  tion?  A.--1  missed  the  auction. 
I  got  into  Nanaimo  the  day  of  the  auction  or  so. 

Q.— Y(tu  think  a  few  hundred  dollars  would  put  the  ''Ada" 
back  into  shapi'  again?      A. — 1  did  not  see  her. 

t^. — What  do  you  think  about  her?  You  know  this  kiachi 
wood  and  hav''  seen  so  many  vessels  built  of  it?  A. —  I 
would  not  send  ay  one  else  to  go  down  and  buy  her;  I  would 
like  to  see  hi  ■■  'efore  I  bought  her.  I'erliaps  she  had  been 
abused.  an«l   i  f1  iike  to  have  seen  for  myself. 

Q. — Do  you  know  what  she  sold  for''  A  — I  think  she  stdd 
for  very  little. 

().— She  sold  for  :f1.!M»(»?  A.— L  think  it  was  for  some- 
thing like  that. 

Q. — Mr.  (Jray  was  here  in  the  city?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Tie  knew  about  the  »"!■.?      .\.  — Yes,  sir. 

Q.-Vou  talki'd  with  him  about  it.  didn't  .vou?.  A. — No,  1 
did  not.  I  got  a  letter  from  A'ancouver  ai)out  the  auction. 
I  heard  that  they  were  going  to  come  down  with  her.  and  I 
left  word  to  send  me  word  if  they  heard  of  the  auction. 

Q. — Ml'.  (Jray  knew  about  the  auction?  .\. — T  do  not 
know  whether  lie  did  or  not.  I  did  not  s(  e  Mr.  tlrny  f<u'  two 
or  three  vears  (hen. 


40 


SO 


60 


(  r 


I  ! 


'■I    lUi"li««»WB^WIffT^W*^JIii»' 


796 

(C.  A.  Limdherp; — Cross.) 

Q.— Did  you  know  Mr.  Oray  was  in  tlie  oity?      A.— I  linow 
he  was  around  here  in  Britisli  Columbia. 

The  Commissionors  then  tooli  recess. 


mm 


Klljlji 


i|:l!:i!|- 


lj'l|(!l| 


!        HI 


10 

The  cross-examination  of  tlie  above  witness  was  continued 
after  recess. 

Q.— Mr.  Lundberg,  when  did  you  leave  Victoria  in  1886  for 
Behriug  Sea?      A.— I  tliinlc  it  was  tlie  l«th  or  17th  of  June. 

Q.— And  you  went  to  tlie  west  coast  first?  A.— We  went 
down  to  get  our  Indians,  yes. 

Q- — And  from  there  you  went  directly  to  the  Behring  Sea? 
A.— Well,  we  first  went  in  to  get  our  Indians,  and  then,  as  I 
20  said  before,  we  smashed  our  canoes  and  had  to  go  to  Ulculet 
to  replace  them. 

Q. — Did  you  seal  any  before  you  went  into  Behring  Sea? 
A. — We  aid  not  lower  our  boats,  but  we  saw  a  few  seals. 

Q- — Von  did  not  lower  your  canoes?  A. — We  did  not 
lower  our  canoes.  We  only  got  five  seals  from  the  time  we 
left  llkulet  until  we  got  to  Behring  Sea. 

Q. — Were  you  out  sealing  in  1888?      A.— No,  sir. 

Q. — Were  you  out  sealing  in  188J>?      A.— No,  sir. 

Q- — Have  you  been  out  sealing  since  at  all?      A. — No. 
30       Q. — Your  only  experience  of  sealing  was  in  1886?    A.— I 
was  interested  in  sealing  in  188!>. 

Q- — Were  you  tlie  white  hunter  tliey  had  on  board?  A.— 
Although  I  did  not  hunt  much  I  hunted  the  stern  boat,  and 
the  hunter  hunted  the  other  boat. 

Q. — You  said  you  liad  been  engaged  as  liunter  and  mate? 
A. — That  means  to  lake  care  of  all  skins  and  look  after  things 
in  general.  We  intended  to  get  a  wliite  crew  wlien  we  start- 
ed, but  we  got  Indians. 

Q. — How  do  you  remember  the  number  of  days  you  low- 
40  pr,.j  y„,„.  canoes  in  Behring  Sea?      A. — I  had  a  small  book 
which  J  kept  to  see  how  many  lowering  days  1  had. 

Q. — Have  you  got  tiiat  book  now?      A. — No. 

Q. — When  did  you  see  that  book  last?  A. — About  a  year 
or  two  ago.      I  don't  remember  exactly. 

Q. — Where?  A.— I  left  it  in  a  house  on  tlie  w«'st  coast  of 
Queen  Charlotte  Islands  amongst  other  books. 

Q. — You  knew  that  you  liad  a  claim  here  at  that  time, 
didn't  you?      A. — I  knew  that  I  had  a  claim. 

Q. — You  have  a  claim  before  the  Commission  now,  liave 
you  not?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — ^^'ere  you  paid  your  wages  for  this  year's  sealing?  A. 
— No,  sir. 

Q. — You  never  have  been  paid?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Are  you  tlien  inter*  sted  in  the  owner  recovering  some 
tiling  because  of  tliis  claim?      A. — Yes,  for  my  ''lay  out"  of 
the  skins  we  had  on  board  when  we  were  seized. 

Q. — You  have  that  interest?      A. — Yes. 

(J. — What  was  your  lay?      A. — 6(»  cents  per  skin  for  every- 
(5o  thing  that  came  over  tlie  rail. 

Q. — Tliat  is  all  tlie  claim  you  have  before  this  Commission? 
A. — That  is  all  the  claim  I  have  against  the  owner. 

Q. — Just  your  "lay  out"  on  the  number  of  seals  taken?  A. 
— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Yon  received  no  wages  outside  of  that?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — And  if  the  owner  gets  anything  back  from  these  skins 
Ihnt  were  .seized  yon  expect  to  get  yonr  lay  from  him?  A. — 
I  <'Xpect  liiia  to  pay  me;  yes. 


50 


m 


\o 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


797 
(<'.  A.  Liiudbei'K — Cross.) 

Q. — Did  >ou  keep  a  log  on  board?      A. — Ho. 
Q. — You  were  the  mate?      A. — Yes,  but  I  did  not  keep  a 
log. 
Q. — Who  kept  the  log?      A. — The  captain  or  the  navigator. 
Q. — Where  is  Captain  Gordon  now?      A. — I  do  not  know 
if  he  is  here  or  not. 

Q. — Do  you  know  whether  he  is  in  town  or  not?      A. — I 
have  not  seen  him  since  he  went  on  the  "Quadra"  to  Vancou- 
ver on  Saturday. 
Q. — You  saw  him  on  Saturday  here  in  town?      A. — Yes. 
Q. — Do  you  expect  to  go  sealing  this  season?     A. — No,  sir; 
I  have  not  sealed  since. 

Q. — What  was  your  hurry,  then,  in  getting  away  from  Vic- 
toria? A. — I  have  a  fishing  station  at  Kutchen,  and  I  am 
cutting  ice  for  the  company. 

Q. — Can  you  tell  me  what  was  your  largest  day's  catch  in 
Behring  Sea?      A. — Yes. 
Q. — Your  own  cateli?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Do  you  mean  tiie  largest  day's  catch?  A. — Yes;  I 
thin.;  it  was  three  seals.  1  went  out  but  little.  I  had 
enough  to  attend  to  on  board. 

Q. — You  have  had  no  other  experience  in  sealing  except 
that?      A. — Yes,  I  had  been  sealing  on  two  different  occi- 
sions  before. 
Q. — Where  was  that?      A. — Out  of  Yokohama. 
Q.— On  wliat  vessel?      A.— On  the  "North  Star"  and  the 
•'Alexander." 

Q. —  Did  you  kill  these  seals  in  the  Sea?  A. — Yes,  w* 
killed  the  seals  in  the  Sea  on  the  "Alexander,"  but  not  on  thd 
"North  Star." 

(i.— How  did  you  tak?  them  on  the  "North  Star?"  A.— 
We  took  them  ashon'. 

Q. — You  went  asliore  and  clubbed  them?      A. — Yes. 
Q. — Did  you  not  do  tliat  on  the  "Alexander?"      A. — No. 
Q. — What  weapons  did  you  use  on  the  "Alexander?"      A. 
— I  used  rifi' 

Q. — Wliat    lilt  you  use  in  Behring  Sea?      A. — Rifles. 
Q. — Did  y<ni  liave  your  own  rifle?       A.— No,   1  was  ship- 
keeper  on  the  "Alexander '" 

Q. — Did  you  Imve  yom  own  rifle  in  Bihring  Sea  on  the 
"Ada?"  A. — I  had  uiy  own  shotgun.  I  didn't  have  my 
own;  I  had  a  ship's  gun. 

Q. — You  did  not  have  any  of  your  own?  A. — I  liad  a  12- 
bore  gun  of  my  own,  but  1  did  not  use  that  for  sealing. 

Q.— Was  that  taken  from  you?  A— No,  it  was  returned 
to  me. 

Q. — It  was  given  back  to  you? 
Vicloriit. 

Q. — Were  the  guns  given  back 
tliink  some  of  them  were. 

Q._W(.re  not  they  all?      A.— That  1  ciiiiKit  say. 
Q._You  saw  them  given  back?      A.— 1  saw  some  of  them 
getting  some  guns  back. 

Q._Home  of  tlie  hunters  of  the  "Ada?"      A.— Yes,  sir. 
Q.— And  they  could  have  taken  them  if  they  wanted  them? 
A.— T  think  every  one  who  claimed  his  gun  as  his  own  got  it. 
Q._Pi,l  they  lake  them  from  tlu'  Indians?      A.— That  I 
am  not  sure  of. 

Q._You  spoke  of  the  two  can(M's  that    were 
A. — I  s]M)ke  of  three  canttes. 

Q. — Was  not  that  considered  as  an  advanc*' 
ans?      .\. — I  do  not  think  so. 

Q._ni,l  tiipy  get  an  advance  besides?  A.— T  think  their 
advance  was  given  here  in  Victoria  if  they  had  any.  but  I 
cannot  say  that, 


A.— After  I  came  here  to 
to  the    linnters?       A. — I 


purchased? 
to  the  Indl- 


<  \  I 

Hi 


p^ff  fp 


nW 


'Hi 


■   I    I     I  I*' 


I     I' 


;l  ' 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


7y8  • 
((".  A.  Lundbi'iij; — Cross.) 

Q. — Did  you  ship  ull  your  ludiaus  here?  A. — No,  I  did  not 
Kliip  uuy  ludiuus. 

y. — How  could  they  get  an  advance  iu  Vietoiia  then?  A. 
— The  chief  generally  conns  up  and  gets  the  advance;  he  gen- 
erally couies  up  here  and  gets  some  of  it. 

Q. — Do  you  know  anything  about  it  then?      A. — Not  much. 

ii. — Vou  do  not  remember  it  and  were  not  present?  A. — 
No. 

Q. — AV^ere  you  not  the  interpreter?  A. — No,  sir;  I  was 
not. 

y. — You  hud  charge  of  siH  the  skins  and  dealt  with  the 
Indians?  A. — The  interpreter  interpreted  everything  I  said. 
I  had  charge  of  everything  on  board  the  vessel. 

Q. — What  did  the  captain  have  to  do  with  it?  A. — The 
captain  was  navigating  officer. 

y. — Who  knows  about  the  cost  of  the  supplies  for  the 
"Ada?"      A.— Mr.  Gray  would  know. 

y. — Did  30U  not  have  anything  to  do  with  getting  the  sup- 
plies? A. — No,  sir;  Mr.  Gray  was  there  himself  and  attend- 
ed to  that  part  of  it. 

Q. — You  had  nothing  to  do  with  it?  A. — No,  only  that 
he  sometimes  called  and  asked  me  my  opinion  as  to  what  was 
needed,  or  something  like  ihat. 

Q. — Was  there  any  other  vessel  taken  with  you  at  the  same 
time  into  Ounalaska?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— What  other  vessel?      A.— The  Allie  I.  Alger" 

Q. — Who  was  captain  of  her?  A. — Captain  Charles  Ray- 
nor. 

Q. — Had  you  been  in  company  with  the  "Alger"  before 
that?      A.— Yes,  we  saw  the  "Alger"  before  that. 

Q. — Did  you  not  know  that  she  was  getting  ready  to  go  out 
of  the  Sea?      A. — No,  I  do  not  think  so. 

Q. — Did  not  Captain  Raynor  tell  you  so?  A. — No,  I  do 
not  think  it. 

Q. — And  did  you  not  talk  about  the  "Ada"  getting  ready  to 
go  out  of  the  Sea?      A. — No,  I  «lo  not  think  1  did. 

Q. — Will  you  say  that  you  did  not?  A. — I  will  say  I  did 
not.  If  I  r<'member  right  1  told  him  I  was  going  to  stay  in 
late,  as  I  had  plenty  of  supplies  and  salt. 

Q. — What  did  you  call  late?  A. — Well,  the  way  we  were 
oulfited  I  thought  we  were  goinp:  to  stay  out  until,  probably, 
the  2(lth  December,  or  the  middl"  of  December — dei)ending 
on  what  the  weather  would  be. 

g.— That  was  on  the  '2m\  August?      A.— Yes. 

Q. —  When  you  were  seized?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

y. — And  you  would  call  after  that  tinie  staying  lat«'  in  the 
Sea  in  those  years?  A.— After  the  l.^tli  of  September  I 
would  call  it  late. 

Q.-  -!>(»  you  know  anybody  that  stayed  out  after  the  liitli 
of  September?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Who  was  it?  A.— We  stayed  in  the  "Alexander"  un- 
til the  2:!rd  of  October  one  year. 

Q. — That  was  not  on  lliis  side  of  the  water  at  all.  Did 
yon  know  anybody  in  1887  that  stayed  out  as  late  as  the  15th 
of  Sejttember?       A. — X<>. 

Q. — Did  you  know  of  anybody  that  stayed  out  as  late  as 
the  5th  of  Sii>teniber?  A. — I  did  not  know  any  of  the  other 
vess»>Is  because  we  got  out  when  we  were  seized.  We  earned 
seals  in  the  "Alexander"  later  than  that,  and  I  was  going  on 
the  same  principle  in  the  "Ada,"  and  I  had  an  idea  I  would 
stay  late. 

Q. — Tfow  nniny  years  ago  was  that?      A. — 18HI. 

(). — Who  was  your  captain?       A. — Fred  Folson. 

0.— Where  is  he  now?  .\.— Tie  is  dead.  He  went  down 
in  the  "llelmbloom"  with  all  hands. 


lO 


"99 
(('.  A.  LuiidbiM-g — ("1088.) 

(i. — You  wore  soioud  mate  on  the  "Alexander?''      A. — Yes 
sir. 
(i. — Who  wa8  the  tti-st  mate?      A. — Chris  Anderson. 
Q. — Where  is  he  now?      A. — He  is  c-aptain  of  a  boat  iu  Yo- 
kolianui  tlie  hist  I  heard  of  him.      Tliat  is  tive  or  six  years 
ago. 

Q. — Mr.  Lundberg,  jou  spolve  of  Indian  food  on  btiard  tlie 
"Ada,"  what  do  you  mean  by  "Indian  Food?"  A. — I  mean 
biscuits  and  beef  and  salt,  and  sueli  things  as  tliat.  In  fart, 
we  gave  them  mostly  anything  sueh  as  w«'  used  ourselves. 

Q. — Wliat  distinction  do  you  draw  tlien  wlien  you  (juote 
"Indian  Food?"  A. — We  liad  it  in  two  different  departments. 
We  had  the  "Indian  Food"  in  the  hold  of  the  vessel;  w«'  had 
the  white  food  aft  in  the  lockers. 

Q. — I>id  they  have  any  dried  flsh  on  board?  A. — They 
had  some. 

Q. — Did  they  have  any  seal  meat?      A. — Sometimes  they 
20  took  seal  meat. 

Q. — Aiid  you  gave  them  tea.  sugar,  and  everything  just  the 
same  as  white  men?  A. — Not  everything — I  did  not  say 
everything.      I  said  we  gave  them  tea,  sugar  and  biscuits 

Q. — At  Ounalaska  the  Indians  stayed  on  board  all  the 
time?      A. — No,  thoy  stayed  aboard  about  ten  days. 

Q. — And  then  they  left?  A. — They  went  ashore  and 
"tented."  They  liauled  up  the  canoes  and  boats,  so  tluit  it 
was  hard  to  get  back  and  forward. 

Q. — Did  they  take  the  canoes  with  them?       A.^ — No,  no 
30   canoes;  they  were  luuiled  ashore  before  that. 

Q. — I)id  the  Indians  go  off  in  their  canoes  while  you  were 
there?      A. — No,  the  canoes  were  all  hauled  up. 

Q. — What  became  of  the  canoes?  A. — I  suppose  they  are 
there  now. 

Q. — Were  not  tlie  Indians  on  shore  during  these  ten  days? 
A. — They  were  allowed  to  go  ashore.  After  that  I  went 
ashore  and  every  one  else*  went  ashore. 

Q. — "i'ou  stayed  four  or  five  days?      A. — Yes. 
Q. — Were  tlie  Indians  fed  all  that  tinu>  on  the  schooner? 
A.~Yes. 

Q. — And  their  canoes  were  all  ashore  all  that  time?  A. — 
I  do  not  remember  exactly  when  their  canoes  were  taken 
ashore. 

Q. — You  said  that  iliey  wei-e  taken  asliore  as  so(m  as  you 
got  there?  A. — I  do  not  think  I  have  said  so.  If  I  did  I 
will  call  it  back.  I  said  that  the  canm's  were  taken  ashore 
before  we  wer<'  released  or  when  we  were  rieased — I  could 
not  say  for  a  certainty.  Hut  they  were  taken  ashore  and 
50  hauled  uj).  After  ten  days  we  were  deprived  of  the  boat  we 
came  hack  and  forward  to  the  vessel  with. 

Q. — After  five  days  you  were  allowed  to  go  asliore  when- 
ever you  wanted  to?  A. — Five  or  six  days — I  don't  know 
which. 

Q._I1i,l  all  these  Indians  eat  on  the  vessel  every  day  from 
the  fifth  up  to  Ihe  tenth  day?  A.— They  ate  on  the  vessel 
as  long  as  the  i)rovisions  lasted,  and  they  came  and  went. 

Q._In  18S1  the  "Alexander"  was  on  the  Russian  side?     A. 
—Yes.  I  started  from  Yokohama  and  went  to  the  Kuiile  Isl- 
60  aiids. 

Q.— And  you  hunted  ahmg  the  Kurile  Islands  in  October? 

A. — No,  sir. 

Q._Where  w(re  you  then?      A.— We  were  in  the  Ileliring 

Sea. 

Q._What  part?  A. — We  were  to  the  southward  and  east, 
ward  of  St.  Oeorge  Island. 

Q._On  the  American  side?  A.— Yes,  it  is  on  the  Ameri- 
can side  I  sujijtose  y<Mi  would  rail  it. 


40 


I   i 


■  -im 


III! 


■■    5 

.■          i 

I 


:■!■,'     :!       ' 


ii|!=''' 


■i  iiii 


I'lj. 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


5^ 


60 


800 

((.'.  A.  Liindberg — Cross — Ut'direet.) 

Q.—Was  the  "Alexander"  a  San  Francisco  boat?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Who  owned  her?      A. — Levies. 

Q. — You  did  not  laud  on  the  island  that  year?  A.— No, 
sir. 

Q. — Are  you  very  sure  that  you  did  not  land  on  the  islands 
in  the  fall  of  1881?  A. — I  went  ashore  on  St.  George's  Island. 

Q. — Which  rookery  did  you  land  on?  Do  you  know  the 
names  of  the  rookeries?      A. — No,  I  do  not. 

Q. — That  is  why  you  went  up  there  in  October?  A. — I 
don't  know  about  that.  We  had  a  broken  jibstay,  and  we 
rtied  to  get  water  at  Unimak,  but  we  cojild  not  get  in. 

Q. — Did  you  take  auy  seals  on  that  island?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Not  a  seal?      A. — No,  sir. 

Be-direct  examination  by  Sir  C.  H.  Tupper: 

Q. — You  explained  about  the  amount  of  stuff  the  police- 
man took  off  the  ship.  Am  I  right  in  understanding  that 
after  you  got  into  Sitka  the  people  were  coming  and  going 
to  this  ship  at  various  times?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  were  asked  with  regard  to  the  sale  of  the  "Ada" 
at  Port  Townsend?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  notice  had  you  as  to  that  sale?  Did  you  know 
the  day  it  would  come  off?  A. — No,  I  did  not  know  the  day, 
but  I  gave  notice  in  Vancouver  to  the  manager  of  the  Rank 
of  British  North  America  to  let  me  know  when  the  vessel  was 
going  to  be  sold,  and  if  I  could  get  a  steamboat  to  come  down 
I  wanted  to  see  how  she  looked. 

Q. — Did  you  get  notice  in  time  to  go  to  the  sale?  A. — I 
would  have  been  in  time  if  I  had  not  been  delayed.  He 
notified  me  by  letter,  not  by  advertisement.  He  wrote  me 
a  letter  and  said  he  believed  the  vessel  was  going  to  be  sold 
in  July — I  am  not  quite  sure  which  month  it  was,  because  I 
was  up  and  down  then  five  or  six  trips. 

Q. — What  prevented  you  from  going  to  the  sale?  A. — 
We  were  delayed  on  the  steamboat. 

Q. — And  so  you  did  not  attend  the  sale?  A. — No,  I  did 
not  get  further  than  Nanaimo. 

Q. — You  were  unable  to  go?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — You  said  Mr.  Gray  was  here  at  the  time.  Was  Mr. 
Gray  able  to  buy  the  ship  at  auy  price  at  all  at  that  time? 
A. — I  do  not  think  he  was. 

Q. — Do  you  know  how  he  was  affected  financially  by  the 
seizure?      .\. — Yes,  I  do. 

Q. — What  was  his  condition  after  the  seizure?  A. — He 
did  not  have  any  money  at  all. 

Q.— He  has  been  unable  to  pay  your  lay?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

(J. — You  have  not  been  able  to  get  a  dollar?      A. — No. 

Q  __Befoiv  that  seizure  what  was  his  financial  condition? 
A. — Very  good. 

Q. — You  were  asked  a  question  or  two  in  regard  to  your 
reason  for  desiring  to  get  away  from  Victoria  to-day.  What 
is  your  business?  A. — My  business  is  halibut  fishing  and 
ice  cutting. 

Q.— Why  are  you  anxious  to  get  away?  A.— I  have  a  con- 
tract for  .5,000  tons  of  ice  at  f.3  per  ton  for  next  fall,  and  I 
have  an  ice  house  made  and  ready  for  it. 

Q.— Where  is  tlie  house?      A.— .\kutchen  Island. 

Q.— What  would  happen  if  you  could  not  get  away  to  at 
tend  to  that  business?      A.— I  would  lose  my  contract. 

Q  _-I)o  you  remember  about  tae  time  that  you  were  asked 
about  just  now?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — How  long  before  you  were  seized,  about?  A. — I  guess 
about  a  fortnight,  or  simewherc  about  that;  I  cannot  say  how 
many  days. 


8oi 


, :  S 


(Liiiulbei'g — (iiiHtiiv"  lltinson — IMiect.) 

Q.— Y«»u  Mpoke  of  a  Hiig  being  on  the  "Ada"  at  the  time  of 
the  seizure  What  flag  was  it?  A.— There  was  a  British 
ensiirn. 

q!— That  was  at  the  masthead?  A.— Y«>s,  we  hoisted  the 
flag  for  the  steamboat  as  she  came  al«mg,  as  we  did  not  know 
wliat  slie  was. 


lo 


20 


Re-cross-examination  by  Mr.  Lansing: 

Q. — Mr.  Lnndberg,  did  Mr.  (Irav  own  the  "Penelope"  in 
18S7?      A.— Yes. 
Q.— Did  he  own  her  in  1888?      A.— Yes,  I  think  so. 

Ke-direet  examination  by  Sir  V.  H.  Tapper: 

Q. — Do  yon  know  Ihat  Mr.  Gray  sold  the  "Penelope"  to  pay 
part  of  his  debts  after  the  seiznre?      A. — I  do. 

Sir  C.  H.  Tapper: — I  suppose  Mr.  L\indberg  can  go  away. 

Mr.  Dickinson- — Y'es. 


Witness  Lundberg  took  the  stand  :ithis  own  request  to 
correit  a  statement  made  by  him  when  testifying  before. 

Ity  Mr.  Petei's: 

,Q  Q. — ^Vhat  statement  is  it  you  want  to  correct?  A. — I  made 
a  mislake  in  the  year,  when  I  come  to  call  myself  back.  In- 
stead of  being  on  the  "Alexander"  in  1881  it    was  in  1882. 

(J. — Is  that  the  only  statement  you  want  to  correct?      A. — 
That  is  the  only  stateiueut  I  want  to  correct. 


50 


Gustave  Hansen,  re-called  and  examined  out  of  order  by 
40   consent,  December  lit,  180G,  as  to  the  "Winifred,"  Claim  No. 
24. 

The  Commisioner  on  the  part  of  the  TTnited  States:— I  un- 
derstand, Jilr.  lN;ter8,  that  yon  tiled  no  reply  in  this  case. 

Mr.  Peters: — 1  did  not  think  it  necessary. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — And 
yoH  do  not  intend  to. 

Mr.  Peters: — No,  we  thought  the  issues  clearly  defined  by 
the  two  pleadings. 

Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q. — Do  you  remember  a  srliooner  called  the  "Winifrt»d?" 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

i-i. — Had  you  any  interest  in  her?      A. — I  had. 

Q. — What  inlerest  had  vou  in  her?      A. — One-third. 

Q.— Did  you  seal  in  the  "Winifred"  in  I8!l2?      A.— Yes,  fir. 

Q.— Where  did  you  seal  from?       A.— From  Victoria. 

Q.-  vVhat  size  of  a  vessel  was  the  "Winifred?"  A. — I 
Ihink  she  was  put  down  for  13  tons  but  she  was  considei?bly 
larger  than  that. 

Q.— She  was  used  in  sealing?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— In  this  year  she  sailed  from  Victoria  on  a  sealing  trip, 
did  she?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q._What  number  of  boats  or  canoes  had  she?  A.~Fo«j 
boats. 

51 


60 


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20 


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803 

(tiustave  UiiiiMoii — Diicct.) 

Q. — Four  senling  boatB?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — No  stern  boat?  A. — No,  sir.  the  stern  boat  was  a 
reffiilar  sealing  bout. 

Q. — How  many  of  a  crew  all  told  had  you?    A. — Nine. 

Q- — How  many  men  did  yon  use  to  a  boat  when  hunting'^ 
A.— Two. 

Q. — Were  these  smaller  boats  than  the  ordinary  sealing 
,Q  boats  we  have  been  talking  about?  A.— There  were  two  17- 
foot  boats  and  two  18-  font  boats. 

Q- — What  guns  did  you  have  on  board  when  yoti  started? 
A. — We  had  shot  guns  and  rifles. 

Q.— How  many  shot  guns?      A.— I  don't  remember,  sir. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  the  class  of  guns  they  were?  A. — 
There  were  some  Greener  guns  and,  I  think,  there  were  one 
or  two  Smith  gnns. 

Q.— These  were  all  breech  loaders,  of  course?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q- — And  you  7»rovisioned  for  the  voyage,  and  for  how  long? 
A. — I  was  provisioned  for  the  Behring  Sea  trip. 

Q- — For  how  many  months  did  you  calculate  that  trip?  A. 
— I  left  pretty  late,  I  think  It  was  about  six  or  seven  months. 

Q. — What  happened  after  you  started  on  your  trip?  Did 
.you  get  into  Behring  Sea  without  any  trouble?  A. — I  had 
to  run  through  the  Unlmak  Pass  with  a  southeaster. 

Q. — You  were  warned  not  to  go  into  Behring  Sea?  A. — 
Yes,  sir,  twice. 

Q. — By  an  American  ship  and  by  a  British  ship?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — As  a  matter  of  fact  you  did  go  into  the  Behiing  Sea? 
A. — Yes,  sir,  I  had  to. 

Q. — Explain  to  the  court  why  it  was  that  you  had  to  go 
into  the  Behring  Sea?  A . — I  was  hunting  over  off  Lavathnak 
near  the  Unimak  Pass. 

Q. — Yon  were  seal  hunting  off  the  coast  of  that  Island? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— That  was  when?      A.— The  12th  July. 
40       Q. — You  were  not  in  Behring  Sea  then?      A. — No. 

Q. — You  were  outside  of  the  Sea  then?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — What  hai)pened  Whon  you  were  hunting  tliere?  A. — 
A  southeaster  sprang  up  and  put  me  on  a  lee  shore. 

Q. — A  heavy  southeaster  or  what?  A. — Yes,  sir,  a  heavy 
southeaster. 

Q. — What  did  you  do?  \. — I  called  the  crew  and  told 
them  our  positi.on  and  told  them:  You  know  we  were  warn- 
ed twice  not  to  go  into  the  Sea,  but  I  think  it  my  duty  as 
master  of  the  vessel  to  let  you  know  our  position ;  we  are  on  a 
50  lee  shore  and  only  24  or  25  miles  from  the  beach;  if  the  wind 
goes  down  we  are  all  right,  we  will  weather  it,  but  if  not, 
we  will  be  among  the  rocks;  I  have  the  bearing  of  the  pass 
and  can  make  for  it,  for  the  safety  of  your  lives.  I  can  run 
through,  but  you  know  we  were  warned.  Then  they  said: 
Whatever  vou  think  is  right,  do  it.  And  then  stood  away. 
I  was  hardly  through  the  pass  when  I  had  to  come  down  to 
double  reef  foresail  and  I  lay  for  three  days  on  the  same 
tack. 
gQ       Q. — You  hove  to?      A. — Hove  to,  yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  had  got  through  the  Pass  then  when  you  hove  to? 
A. — Yes,  sir,  I  was  partly  through,  so  to  say  through,  I  had 
to  drift  a  long  time. 

Q. — After  the  three  days'  storm  was  over  .what  did  you 
do?    A. — I  started  to  work  to  the  eastward  to  get  out. 

Q. — What  pass  were  yon  going  out  through?  A. — The 
wind  turned  up  to  tlie  southward,  and  more  southerly,  and 
finally  sou"  sou'west.  and  T  kept  on  tlie  starboard  tack  all  the 
time  which  took  nie  oft"  towards  Aemak  Islands, 


80  5 


10 


20 


(GiiHtav*'  HmiHi'ii — J)ir('tt.) 

Q.— What  pass  would  that  take  you  towards?  A.— FalsL' 
Pass. 

Q. — WaH  it  your  intention  to  go  through  tliut  pasH?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — As  a  nuitter  of  fact  you  never  got  o\it?  A. — No,  not 
that  pass. 

Q. — When  you  were  going  in  to  Uuiniak  I'ass,  did  you  meet 
any  other  cruiser  or  men-ofwar?  A. — 1  did  not,  but  the 
"Rush"  was  there. 

Q.— You  did  not  see  the  "Rusli"?  A.— No,  but  I  found  out 
afterwards. 

Q. — Did  the  weather  get  finer  before  you  got  to  False 
Pass    A. — It  droi)j>ed  ealni. 

Q. — You  were  then  becalmed?    A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q. — There  was  no  wind  at  all?    A. — No  wind  at  all. 
Q. — During  that  time  did  you  .-ee  a  seal?     A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q. — And  I  believe  yoi;  shot  .1  few?     A. — Yes.  sir. 
(J. —How    many?     .^. — I   liMinol    say,  but   I   had  some  nn 
deck  when  the  "Rush  '  sei/.ed  me. 

Q. — What  happened  to  you?    A. — The  "Riish"  seized  me. 
O — Do  you  i-euieinbtr  wti,\t  day  that  was?    A. — I  think  it 
was  »he  20th  July. 

Q. — Who  cave  on  board  you  from  the  "Rush"?  .\. — A 
llvuti'naiit  and  an  ensign. 

(}.-What  did  they  do  with  you?  A. — Tliey  took  me  in 
tow  and  towed  me  to  Ounalaska. 

Q. — How  long  did  it  take  you  to  go  to  Oiinalaska?    A. — 
30  We  got  there  the  next  day. 

Q. — What  was  done  with  you  when  you  got  to  Ounalaska? 
A. — Well,  I  was  first  tied  to  the  stern  of  tlie  "Rush"  some 
days  and  made  fast  to  a  buoy  tliero.  That's  all  they  did,  and 
they  sent  me  aboard  the  ".Mbatross." 

Q. — What  was  the  "Albatross,"  a  revenue  cutter?  A. — 
Fish  Commission  boat. 

Q. — And  took  you  where?    A. — Sitka. 
Q. — Who  did  they  take  with  you,  any  of  your  crew?    A. — 
All  of  the  crew  except  the  cook  were  taken  to  Ritka  in  the 
40  "Albatross." 

Q. — What  became  ot  your  vessel?  A. — The  "Albatross" 
towed  her  across. 

Q.— To  where?    A.— To  Sitka, 

Q. — So  that  the  vessel  and  <>rew  all  got  to  Sitka?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

O. — What  happep'^^d  to  vou  uj)  there?  A. — I  was  put  in 
jail. 

Q. — Were  you  put  in  this  court  liouse  or  jury  room,  or 
whpr(>?    A. — I  was  j»ut  in   the  jail   toeether  with   Indians, 
white  men  and  anv  other  person  arrested. 
O.— That  was  the  jail  itself?     A.— Yes.  sir. 
O. — And  you  were  kept  there  liow  long?     A. — I  was  there 
until  the  19th  December. 

O. — Were  you  tried  before  the  court?  A. — In  Februarvf 
when  the  court  set  I  was  up  there  and  there  was  somethinc 
read  out  to  me.  but  T  was  never  tried. 

Q — How  did  you  get  out?  A. — Mr.  Maloney.  attorney, 
over  to  Juneau  came  over  and  bailed  me  out. 

Q. — I  believe  thev  api)ointed  you  a  lawyer,  did  tliey  not? 
A. — Yes.  sir,  Mr  Clark. 

Q. — What  happtned  to  him  just  about  that  time?  A. — He 
was  put  out  of  the  country  just  before  my  case  canie  on. 

Q. — Did  you  employ  him  yourself?    A. — No,  sir. 
Q. — Who  nominated  him?    A. — The  jtidge. 
Q. — How  did  you  get  out  of  jail?    A. — Mr.  Mahmey  came 
over  and  bailed  me  out. 


SO 


60 


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IlilllSil 


w :  i 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


804 

(Gustavo  UauHi'U— Uirett— Ci'ims.) 

(i.— Did  .v«»ii  get  away  then?  A.— I  went  down  to  Fort 
\Vn«n}?le,  flrst  to  Douglas  Island,  to  Juneau  and  from  theiv 
to  Fort  Wrangle. 

ti.— What  happened  to  .vou  then?  A.— I  fitted  out  a  new 
vessel. 

Q.— And  did  what?  A.— Fittwl  lier  out  and  started  away 
from  Juneau. 

(i.— You  didn't  go  back  in  Deeenilter  to  1h'  imprisoned  any 
more?    A. — No,  sir. 

ii. — What  hapiH'ned  to  the  seluMtner,  did  you  ever  get  her 
back?    A.— The  "Winnifred  "? 

Q.— Yes.  sir.    A.— No,  sir. 

ii. — Can  you  give  me  an  idea  what  the  value  of  the  "Win- 
nifred" is  or  was?  A. — Well.  1  can't  say.  I  took  her  and  toro 
up  her  old  cabin  and  made  a  new  cabin. 

Q. — How  long  Imd  you  had  the  ''Winnifred"  or  had  an  in- 
tei'est  in  her?     A. — Just  that  time. 

ii. — That  was  the  first  time  you  liad  iM'en  out  in  her?  .V. 
-  Yes,  sir. 

Q. — .\nd  when  had  you  got  her;  obtained  an  interest  in 
her?    A. — Higlit  in  \'ictori«,  tlu>  same  spring. 

Q. — .\nd  wliat  liad  you  |>aid  for  lier?  A. — Well,  it  was 
never  settled  because  I  didn't  j)ay  the  numcy,  that  dejH'uded 
on  the  catch. 

Q. — You  did  not  pay  for  her,  as  a  matter  of  fact.  What 
did  you  agr»'e  to  pay  for  her?  A. — I  hadn't  nuide  any  settle- 
ment. 

Q. — Who  did  you  g<'t  her  from?    .\. — Mr.  Spring. 

Q. — Was  he  interested  in  the  catch?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

(J. — Before  you  went  out.  had  you  put  repairs  on  her?  .\. 
— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  had  you  done  to  her?  A. — Made  a  new  cabin; 
caulk«*d  her  over. 

Q. — Mr.  Spring  will  be  able  to  give  evidence  of  tlie  value 
better  than  you?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Of  course  evei-ything  on  board  the  vessel  v>'as  taken? 
A. — Everything  was  taken  with  her. 

Q. — What  hapiH>ned  to  your  crew,  were  tliev  detained  at 
Sitka?    A.— Well,  they  were— 

Tlie  rommissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States; — Wliy 
do  you  go  into  that,  Mr.  Peters,  tliere  is  no  allegation  in  your 
claim  about  the  crew,  only  the  mate  and  master. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  shall  ask  as  to  the  mate  then. 

(To  witness): 

Q. — What  b<'came  of  the  mate,  was  he  detained  with  you? 
A. — No,  sir.  I  sent  the  mate  on  board  the  "Pathfinder."  I 
was  to  go  with  tlie  "Pathfinder"  on  tlie  Fair  Weather 
giHiunds  when  she  lost  her  captain. 

Q. — Then  the  mate  was  not  taken  to  Sitka?    A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — As  a  matter  of  fact,  did  you  send  tlie  crew  home,  or 
were  tliey  sent  home?     A. — Tliey  <'ame  down  by  the  steamer. 

Q. — They  came  right  down?  A. — No.  they  were  there  for 
some  time. 

Q. — T'ntil  the  steamer  came?  A. — Except  two.  One  was 
l»aid  by  the  United  States;  a  witness  against  me. 

Q. — So  the  ship  was  lost  and  everything  in  it?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Dickinson: 

Q. — Wlien  are  you  going  away  from  here.  Captain?  A. — 
I  don't  know,  sir. 


8o5 

(dllMtaV*'    lIllIIHCII — CidHrt.) 

Mr.  Dlfkiiitum : — I  dcHirt'  to  leHtTve  tlu*  crossexuiuiuatlon 
of  thiH  witness  until  we  cnn  fxaniini'  the  i^eeord  go  far  as  this 
veHHel  if)  concerned. 


,Q      Onstave  Hansen  was  recalled  further  in  the  cnBo  of  the 
"Winnifred,"  D.'wniber  22nd,  189(5. 

CrosH-exaniination  liy  Mr.  UitkhiMon: 

il. — I  think  you  have  f4tat<>d.  Captain  HauHen,  that  in  18U2, 
when  you  started  out  on  your  voyage  you  had  u«»  inten- 
tion of  entering  Uehring  Sea?    A. — ^o,  Kir. 

Q. — VVliei-e  did  you  outfit,  Captain  Uanwn?  A. — In  Vic- 
toria, Hir. 

y. — For  what  time  did  you  outtit?     A. — It  niUHt  have  been 
20  in  March. 

Q. — What  time  did  you  sail?    A. — I  don't  rememl>er. 

y. — Did  you  have  a  log  book  that  year?  A. — No,  I  had  a 
kind  of  a  scrap  book.     1  wasn't  compelled  to  keep  it. 

Q. — Did  you  keep  any  log  book  except  the  scrap  book?  \. 
— Nothing  Itut  the  scrap  book. 

y. — And  for  how  hmg  did  you  outtit?  A. — For  the  sum 
mer  cruise. 

Q. — Did  you  outtit  to  be  gon**  until  the  latter  part  of  Aug- 
ust?    A. — Yes,  it  would  be  Septcmln'r;  didn't  expect  to  get 
3°  Imv.k  before  HeptemlH-r. 

(i. — Vou  have  b«H'n  sealing  fiU"  tw«*lve  years?  A. — Mort? 
than  that,  sir. 

ii. — Did  you  ever  know  a  season  wlu'U  s»'als  could  be  taken 
in  the  Fair  Weather  (Srouuds  or  in  the  North  Pacific  in  July 
or  August?    A. — I  have  been  very — 

Q. — You  have  had  a  hmg  exjierience,  Captain,  some  12  or 
15  years,  in  sealing,  you  went  sealing  away  back  in  1880?  A. 
— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Now,  I  want  to  know  from  your  large  experience  in 
sealing  whether  you  ever  knew  seals  to  be  got  in  the  Fair 
Weather  Urounds  or  in  the  North  Pacific,  outside  of  Behring 
Sea,  in  July  or  August?  A. — Yes,  sir,  I  have  got  them  my- 
self in  July. 

Q. — That  is  in  the  hnnting  grounds  for  the  season?  A. — 
No. 

Q. — You  know  the  habits  of  the  seal  .so  far  as  a  seal  hun- 
ter can  know  tlu'm,  and  that  in  Jtily  and  August  they  are 
usually  on  the   Pribilott"    Islands,    are    they?      A. — Pai-t    (tf 
50  them  are. 

Q. — And  the  seals  in  Behring  Sesi  are  caught  from  the 
sejils  that  go  out  to  feed  from  Pribilofl:  Islands,  are  they? 
A. — Part  of  them  are  and  part  of  them  come  through  the 
Pass. 

Q. — They  cease  coming  through  the  Pass  about  the  15th  of 
July,  do  they  not?  A. — I  have  seen  then  come  in  the 
month  of  .Vugust. 

Q. — Not  in  great  numbeis?      A. — Well,  quite  a  few. 

Q. — As  a  matter  of  fact,  you  know  this  to  be  true,  do  you 
not,  Captain  Hansen,  that  the  seals  come  there  to 
breed,  commence  to  come  early  in  July  and  stay  through 
July  and  August?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  as  they  breed  the  females,  pups  and  young  sealsj 
go  out  to  feed  in  Behring  Sea.  Is  that  true?  A. — The  pups 
bom  there — there  are  a  very  few  attempt  to  seal  any  distance 
from  shore. 

Q. — That  is  where  yon  get  the  seals  while  they  are  breed- 
ing there?    A. — Y'es,  sir. 


40 


60 


]''  I 


8o6 


•!''! 


IliJ 


ii 


Q 


((hihtnvc  HaiiHen — rmsn.) 
-And  that  Ih  tlit>  herding  place  in  the  bri'edinf(  seaRon, 


in  .Inly?    A.— V«'b,  sir. 

Q. — And  from  that  on  they  stay  thronnh  Au|;uHt?  A. — 
Ypb,  sir. 

Q. — Is  it  not  a  fact  that  a  Rnrnt  quantity  of  wmiIh  or  Heal 
flslioiicB  cxiHt  in  ntOiriiiR  Soa?    A. — Y«'B,  Hir. 

(i. — Now,  Honio  one  said,  Ca|))ain  HiiniM'n,  thjit  in  regard  to 
Home  teHtimony  you  nave  (lie  oilier  day  that  you  Hjioke  of 
lo  wanting;  to  eorreet  Bomething.  If  th»'re  Ih  anything  in  your 
direet  examination  that  you  denire  to  eorrett  before  I  pro- 
ceed, pleiiHe  do  HO.  A. — I  waH  asked  if  I  was  at  the  PribilotT 
iHliindH  in  1H<>().  jind  I  think  I  said  "No."  I  think  I  wub 
there. 

i}. — A\'n»  there  anything  else  in  your  testimony  you  desire 
to  ex]>lain  before  I  proceed  with  the  crosB-examination?  A. 
— \o.  sir. 

(i. — Well,  you  were  there  on  the  coast  for  seals  in  July, 
1H!(2,  were  you  not?     A. — Yes,  sir. 
~°       Q. — And  had  fitted  out  for  a  voyage  to  last  until  the  first 
of  Septemlx'r.  a  sealing  voyag"?     A. — Yes.  .-'r.  sometime  in 
September. 

Q. — Having  no  intenticm  of  going  into  Behring  Sea?  Do 
you  remember,  Paplain  TTansen,  about  a  month  before  you 
were  seized  you  were  at  an  island,  at  Afognac  Island?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  (ime  were  you  up  there  at  Afognac  Island?    A. 
— I  don't  remember,  sir,  must  have  been  in  the  early  part  of 
20  July,  J  think. 

Q. — Early  part  of  July  or  latter  part  of  June?  A. — Some- 
where along  there;  I  think  in  the  early  i)ai't  of  July. 

Q. — You  had  souu'  seals  on  board,  did  yi  n  not?  A. — I 
had  some  before. 

Q. — Uef<»re  you  came  into  Afognac  Ishiaci?  .i. — Yes,  sir, 
a  few. 

Q. — You  had  about  how  many  that  you  had  taken  -vutside? 
A.-— I  think  there  was  104. 

Q. — Was  that  your  entire  catch  for  that  season  up  to  that 
40  time?     A. — Yes.  sir. 

i}. — Yon  had  caught  them  from  the  time  yoii  went  out.  if 
you  went  in  March,  on  the  coast,  on  the  Fair  Weatlu-r  grounds 
and  all  tol'i  outside  of  I{«'hring  Sea.  104?  A.— I  didn't  tea*! 
before  I  came  up  to  Afognac  Island. 

Q. — These  were  the  seals  you  had  caught  during  the  sea- 
son?    A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — And  you  came  into  Afognac  Island  in  the  latter  part 
of  Jun«>  or  July,  having  no  intention  of  going  to  Behring  Sea? 
50  A. — No,  sir.  I  was  told  not  to. 

Q. — And  yon  had  seal.s  t>'  the  number  of  104?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q. — What  did  .vou  do  with  them?  A. — They  went  down  to 
Victoria  in  the  "Kate." 

Q.— Was  the  "Kate"  in  that  harbor  off  Afognac  Island? 
A. — She  came  in  there  a  day  oi-  to  before  I  left. 

Q. — And  you  sent  down  your  si'als  by  her?  You  have  the 
same  owners?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  find  any  other  ships  in  that  harbor?  A. — 
Yes.  sir,  there  was  12  or  l.S.  I  think,  altogether. 

Q. — Now.  being  at  Afognac  Island  and  after  you  had  dis- 
charged your  seals  upon  the  "Kate,"  you  were  in  the  harbor 
at  Afognac  Island,  were  you  not?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Do  you  rememl)er  what  that  harbor  is  called?  A. — 
Tonki  Bay. 

Q. — You  were  then  in  about  what  latitude  and  longitude? 


60 


807 


20 


30 


((  I  IIHtll  \  (•    I  IllIIKCIl — (  'l'()«<..) 

iWltncHH  iiMlinilcK  on  niiip,  Vol.  :»,  Aiiii'i-ifiiii  U**  priitt — 
Mh|>  of  Ht'liring  Ht'ii  aiui  tli<>  North  I'lieitlc,  folluwiiiK  INige 
(111),  which  wiiH  Hhowii  th«'  CoiniuiHHioiiorH). 

(j. — How,  uftc'f  beiug  at.  Touki  l\ay  and  Afognac  iHhiud 
(liHchurging  tho.  houIh,  whore  did  >uu  go,  in  what  diruetion? 
A. — Hulled  to  tht  weHtwurd. 

Q. — Aud    wlieu    you    were    at     Afognac  Itilund,    what    iH 
'°   known  an  the  Fair  Weather  Grounds  were  to  the  euHtwurd, 
were  they  not?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

y. — Did  you  sail  to  tlie  westward?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

(^  -And  liow  long  did  you  sail  to  the  westward?  A. — To 
tlie  Hhuniagin  Islands. 

Q. — Did  you  get  any  seals?      A. — Y'es,  sir. 

(j. — Ilow  nuiuy  did  you  get  down  there  to  the  Hhuniagin 
Islands?    A. — I  don't  remember  how  many. 

ii. — Did  you  get  five?    A. — More  than  five. 

Q. — How  many  now,  captain?      A. — I  can't  tell., 

t^. — Healing  was  not  very  good,  was  it,  not  such  as  you  had 
been  accustomed  to?    A. — No. 

Q. — Did  you  get  ten?    A. — Yes,  I  got  more  than  ten. 

Q. — How  many  will  you  swear  to?  A. — That  is  moi-e  than 
I  can  say. 

Q. — You  would  not  swear  whether  there  was  more  than 
20,  would  you?    A. — I  think  I  got  more  than  20. 

Q.— Was  it  more  than  30?  (i.— I  think  I  got  more  than  30 
too. 

Q. — Forty?    A. — I  can't  say  exactly  how  many. 

Q. — How  many  times  did  you  lower  down  in  that  vicinity? 
A. — Well,  I  don't  remember  that  either. 

Q. — Did  you  lower  at  all,  Captain  Hansen?     A. — Oh,  yes. 

y. — How  many  times?  A. — 1  can't  tell,  sir,  I  don't  re- 
member. 

il. — Hut  you  are  sure  you  got  seals  there?    A. — Oh,  yes. 

Q. — Y'ou  didn't  luive  such  good  seal  catching  as  you  were 
accustomed  to,  did  you?    A. — No. 

Q. — Where  did  you  go  from  the  Sliumagin  Islands?    A.— 
4°  Went  down  between  Hannak. 

Q. — Htill  further  to  the  scmthwest?  A. — Hetween  Hannak 
and  Uninmk  outside  the  Unimak  Pass. 

Q. — Did  yon  get  seals  at  Hannak  and  Unimak  Pass?  A. — 
Y-^es. 

Q. — How  many  did  you  gt't?    A. — I  don't  remember. 

Q. — Can  you  tell  witliin  ten?    A. — No,  I  don't  know. 

Q. — What  kind  of  seals  did  you  get  there  at  that  time, 
early  in  July?  A. — Well,  there  was  mixed  seals,  two  and 
three-year-old  seals,  some  cows. 

Q. — And  you  sealed  about  the  I'ass  there  some?    A. — Yes. 

Q. — And  Uninmk  Pass  is  the  usual  passage  of  the  seal 
herd,  is  it  not?    A. — Mostly. 

Q. — That  is  the  highway  of  the  seals  in  Behring  Hea,  is  it 
not?    A. — Y'es,  sir. 

Q. — And  you  sealed  about  there,  did  you  not,  to  the  west 
and  east  and  to  the  front  of  Unimak  Pass?     A. — Yes. 

Q. — How  many  seals  did  you  get?  A. — I  don't  remember, 
sir. 

Q. — Well,  you  gave  us  some  idea  of  the  numl)er  of  your 
catch  in  your  direct  examination  pretty  well  on  s«'veral  oc- 
casions. A. — I  think  I  had  65  or  66  altogether,  and  I  lower- 
ed once  or  twice  in  Behring  Hea,  of  <'Ourse,  the  rest  I  got  out- 
side. 

Q. — You  liad  60  or  65  altogether,  including  what  you  took 
in  Behring  Hea  afterward?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — In  order  to  fix  that,  and  not  knowing  the  time  you  en- 
tered Behring  Hta,  how  many  did  you  get  in  Behring  Sra? 
A. — That  1  can't  tell,  either,  sir,  I  can  not  remember. 


50 


60 


t  ■, 


•IIJllll;        M 


ili:i: 


I'lltlll 


20 


30 


40 


so 


60 


808 

(Gustavo  Ht.naou — Ciosk.) 

<i. — <\ii»  villi  jfiv*'  il  about?    A. — I  had  sdine  seals  tooK. 

y. — That  had  been  taken  in  lichrinn  Sea?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  .vou  liavo  .vour  entire  oateh  on  deck  that  you 
caught  in  Hehring  Sea?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — How  many,  can  you  give  me  some  idea?  A. — There 
might  have  been  12  or  14. 

Q. — Now,  you  had  been  sealing  all  around  tlwse  grounds 
repeatedly  bt'fore,  had  you  not?    A. — Yes,  sir 

Q. — You  knew  about  the  habits  of  the  seals  of  Hehring 
K«'a,  the  Pribloff  Islands  being  tiieir  breeding  grounds?  A. 
— Yes.  sir. 

Q. — You  kne>v  about  (he  periods  to  go  to  Itehring  Sea  to 
hunt  them  in  July  and  August?  Yon  knew  all  that  before 
you  started  on  the  voyage?   .  A. — Oh,  yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  yon  outtitted  without  any  intention  of  entering 
Hehring  Sea?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i. — For  this  voyage  up  to  the  lirst  of  September,  you  are 
still  sure  of  that?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — \Yhen  ;,ou  outfitted  you  did  not  intend  to  enter  Hehring 
Sea?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — So  it  was  not  on  account  of  your  Iwing  told  not  to  go 
that  you  did  not  intend  to  go?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Now,  after  leaving  Sannak  island  will  you  be  kind  en- 
ough to  tell  me  in  what  direction  yon  went  in  sailing  about 
Sanmik  Island?      A. — OIT  here  (indicating.) 

Q. — You  have  said  that  yon  fished  around  to  the  east  and 
west  of  the  Inimuk  Pass  for  seals?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i.— And  off  Inimak  Pass  in  (he  North  Pacitic?  A.— 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  then  yon  went  to  the  eastward,  did  you  not  still 
more  to  the  eastward?  A. — 1  went  through  the  Pass,  ott' 
here  (indicating)  to  the  nor'  nor'-east;  stood  on  a  starboard 
tack. 

Q. — Ytni  were  off  Avatanak.  Was  that  th(>  Island  from 
which  you  were  20  miles  iiway?      A — .No,  sir. 

Q. — S'ou  w«'re  alxmt  10  or  12  miles  off,  you  said,  on  direct 
examination?      A. — 2r>  from  here  (indicating  I'ninuik). 

Q. — Hut  when  yon  were  oft"  Avatanak  Island  how  far  were 
you?  A. — When  I  lowered  the  boats  I  was  about  12  miles 
ofT. 

Q. — Rut  I  am  going  to  bring  you  to  the  jwint  when  the 
southeaster  came  up,  where  were  you  then?  A. — Just  about 
here  (indicating.) 

Q. — You  said  on  direct  examination  that  yon  were  about  25 
miles  away  from  an  island.  What  island  was  that?  A. — 
T'ninmke,  I  think,  2;"  or  ^0  perhaps. 

Q. — Then  yon  ealed  a  consultation  of  y<»ur  crew?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  were  abonr  25  miles  off  TTninnike  Island,  y<m  say? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Then  if  you  were  25  miles  off  you  were  in  the  pass,  were 
you  n<»l?      A. — No,  sir. 

y. — You  were  off  (lie  Pass,  in  the  waters  of  the  Pass? 
A. — Yes.       I  was  ii;;ht  about  here  (imlicating). 

Q.— Right  off  the  pass?       A.— Yes. 

Q. — And  how  many  miles  from  it?  .\. — Well,  1  had  been 
going  since  10,  11  or  12  o'clock;  I  tucked  shii»  over  here  (in- 
dicating), 1  lowered  the  boats  about  12,  I  think,  and  was  out 
until  three  or  four  when  I  had  to  come  on  board. 

Q. — When  you  lowered  your  boats  hist  yon  were  off  .\vata- 
nak  Island?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — About  2T>  miles?  .\. — No,  t  should  not  think  that  far, 
when  I  tacked  ship  it  was  about  12  or  a  little  over. 


lO 


30 


40 


so 


or    four 


voiir 
A.— 


A.- 


20 


809 

(ruisfiivc  Hansen — Oross.) 

Q— Wlien  you  tucked  sliip  you  tacked  ship  bccauae  a 
southeaster  had  come  up?  A.— No,  the  wind  was  nor'-nor,- 
east. 

Q.— Until   what  time?      A.— Until  about  three 
o'clock  in  the  afternoon. 

Q. — Now,  tell  us  where  you  were  when  you  calh>d 
consultation  of  your  crew,  just  mark  it  on  the  map. 
(Marking:  on  geodetic  survey.       (Witness  indicates.) 

Q. — That  is  where  th-  south  easter  overtook  you? 
Yes,  sir,  (indicat(>s  in  line  of  54  and  about  lialf  aii  inch  to  the 
west  of  the  164th  degree  on  map)  about  1(5415. 

The  OommisHion(>r  on  the  part  of  the  United  Stati's: — That 
d(M's  not  help  nie  at  all.  Can  you  not  give  the  beirings,  Mr. 
witness,  approximate  distance? 

Witness: — Yes;  just  above  here  (indicating) 

Mr.  Dickinson: — How  far  off  from  Unimtik  Island? 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Iler  Majesty: — ITow  did 
Unimak  Island  bear? 

Witness:— About  nor'-nor'-wost.  I  could  not  see  it,  when 
the  southeaster  shut  in  it  got  thick. 

Q. — You  knew  afterwards  about  how  far  it  was?  A. — I'he 
reason  I  called  attention  I  had  the  bearings  about  that 

Q. — Your  wind  was  in  the  soulliwest  that  struck  y«»u?  A. 
— No,  southeast. 

The  Oommissioner  on  the  part  of  the  TTnited  States: — EX; 
cnse  nu',  Mr.  Oickinson;  this  testimony  that  you  have  got  so 
far  do«'S  not  give  me  the  slightest  assistance.  I  would  like 
to  know  whether  he  was  east  or  west  of  Unimak  Pass  when 
this  wind  struck  him.  Was  it  west  of  the  island.  Avatanak, 
spoken  of? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — He  has  left  the  Avatanak. 

The  (commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — T 
would  like  to  know  about  his  distances,  so  I  can  follow  his 
vessel. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — He  gives  the  latitude  exact,  and  gives  tha 
longitude  with  compaisitive  exactness. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  TTnited  States: — To 
enable  me  to  follow  his  vessel  in  my  mind  it  would  nol  be 
of  the  slightest  help  to  me  to  know  the  latitude  and  longi- 
tude. I  have  got  (he  course  of  the  wind,  southeast,  now,  if 
he  will  give  me  the  Is'arings  (►f  (he  Pass  and  the  bearings  of 
any  land  he  could  see.  then  I  could  follow  him. 

Hy  Mr.  Dickinson; 


\  ! 


Q.— (live  us  the  bearings,  captain?  A. — Unimak  bore,  I 
think,  nor'west  by  west. 

(i. — .Vbout  what  distance  from  it?  .\. — I  had  been  hove 
to  after  I  came  on  beard  for  a  little  whih'.  and  I  didn't  know 
what  to  do;  I  must  have  been  hove  to  for  a  couple  of  hours, 
Cq  and  I  called  all  iiands  and  told  them  of  the  fact  of  our  p«wi- 
tion  and  told  them  that  <)s  yet  I  knew  the  bearings  of 
Unimak  and  w«)uld  try  and  get  through,  but  if  I  laid  thei'o 
a  little  hmger  the  current  might  put  me  out. 

Q. — What  then  was  your  distance  from  Unimak?  .\. — It 
had  shut  in  already. 

Q. — Did  you  take  your  bearings?  What  did  you  tell  your 
crew  as  to  your  distance  from  the  siiore?  .\. — I  told  them 
what  I  knew  about  it. 


■ 


HI 

ir^^    '  ' 

H! 

Pf!     ■ 

■ 

].;■■■' 

|i;i     ■ 

it 
If 

Tm 


;!i.h:j,;!  : 


'I   l|).:|. 


i  ' 


'    ,    ^ 

1, 

lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


810 

fGiistavt'  Hanson — rross.) 

Q. — What  did  you  tell  them  as  to  your  distanre?  A. — I 
don't  remember  exactly. 

Q. — What  distanee  were  you?  A. — I  must  have  been  from 
fifteen  to  twenty  milt>8  fi-om  tlu're,  and  probably  twenty-five 
or  thirty  miles  from  T^nimak. 

Q. — Give  the  b«'a rings  of  XTnimak  from  you?  A. — We  bore 
about  northwest  by  north,  or  nor'nor'west. 

Q. — About  25  or  30  miles  away?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Now.  you  say  you  hove  to  there  for  a  couple  of  hours; 
the  wind  still  kept  to  the  southeast?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  increasing  all  the  time?  A. — Increasing  all  the 
time. 

Q. — Is  there  no  harbour  at  Rannak  Island?  There  is  a 
good  harbour  is  there  not?  A. — I  never  have  been  in  there, 
I  have  be«>n  in  the  harbours  in  here  (indicating). 

Q. — You  are  perfectly  well  aware  that  there  is  a  good  har- 
bour there?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  you  are  perfectly  well  aware  that  there  is  a  good 
harbour  this  side  of  False  Pass,  is  there  not?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States:— 
What  do  you  mean  by  "this  side"?    East  or  west. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  mean  west  of  False  Pass. 

Q. — There  was  a  good  harbour  in  there?  A. — Yes,  I  knew 
two  or  three  good  harbours. 

Q. — Without  going  around  into  the  Pass  was  there  not? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  did  not  talk  about  going  into  False  Pass  did  you? 
A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — So  that  there  were  harbours  at  Sannak,  there  was  a 
harbour  to  the  west  of  False  Pass,  and  a  vei^  good  one,  you 
sjiy?    A. — Yes,  a  very  good  harbour. 

Q. — W^ell,  with  a  southeast  wind  you  could  always*  sail  to 
the  northeast,  could  you  not?    A. — I  could  not  <"arry  sail. 

Q. — Could  not  carry  sail  there  was  so  much  wind?  A. — 
No,  sir. 

Q. — You  could  not  carry  sail  to  the  northeast?  A. — No, 
sir. 

Q. — To  keep  your  headway?    A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Ordinarily  or  after  a  gale  of  wind  I  suppose  you  could 
sail  with  a  south  or  east  wind  to  the  east,  could  you  not?  A. 
— No,  sir. 

Q. — How  many  points  off  the  east?    A. — Six. 

Q. — You  would  have  to  sail  six  points  off  the  east?  A. — 
From  the  wind. 

Q. — Did  you  not  tell  us  that  the  wind  hauled  into  the 
souili?  A. — After  I  came  into  Pehring  Sea,  that  is  what  I 
said. 

Q. — Did  yon  not  say  it  hauled  to  the  east  continually?  A. 
— After  I  gor  into  Pehring  Sea? 

Q. — It  did  not  haul  to  the  south  in  there?  A. — Not  before 
I  wa;^  through  the  Pass. 

Q.  -It  was  a  southeast  gnle?  A. — Yes,  sprung  up  from 
the  southeast;  it  didn't  start  to  haul  to  the  southward  before, 
T  think,  the  second  day. 

Q. — Now,  in  the  Pass  itself,  are  there  no  harbours  behind 
Ashmiak  Island?     A. — Not  for  a  southeaster. 

Q. — No  harbour  behind  Tagalda  Island?     A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Is  not  this  fair  harbour  north  of  Tagalda?  A. — Not  to 
my  knowledge,  I  never  have  been  there. 

Q. — Why  is  it  no  good?  A. — I  should  not  think  it  would 
be.  there  would  be  too  much  tide  there.  I  have  bwn  here 
at  .\kan  Island  iiiso  at  Akntan. 


8it 


20 


^Oiistnvc  Hiiiisen — Piobs.) 

Q. — -In  the  running  into  Reining  Sea,  wliat  course  did  ,vou 
take  ninning  through  T'niinali  I'ass?  A. — I  liove  to  immed- 
iately, with  double  reefed  foresail. 

Q. — Where  did  you  heave  to  with  a  double-reefed  foresail? 
A. — Just  about  here  (indicating). 

Q, — Just  inside  the  Pass?  A. — Yes,  hardly  through  the 
Pass. 

Q. — Captain  Hansen,  could  you  not  have  kept  out  of 
Behring  Sea?    A.— Not  that  tinie. 

Q. — You  have  been  a  seaman  how  many  years?  A. — Oh, 
sin«^  I  was  a  boy. 

Q. — You  did  not  want  to  go  in,  did  you?    A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Well,  you  hove  to  right  out  or  inside  of  the  Sea,  at  the 
end  of  the  Pass,  did  you?    A. — Yes. 

Q. — From  there  wJiere  did  you  go?  A. — I  didn't  go  any- 
where, before  the  gale  was  over  I  had  drifted  up  to  here  (in- 
dicating). 

Q. — How  many  miles  did  you  drift?  A.— I  think  it  was 
the  third  day  after  I  came  through. 

Q. — You  were  clear  up  to  the  Pribiloff  Island?  A. — No- 
where near  it,  I  suppose  she  drifted  about  20  miles  in  24 
hours. 

Q. — About  how  many  miles  did  she  drift  in  the  northwest? 
A.— Might  have  drifted  from  90  to  100  miles. 

Q. — Then  the  wind  turned  into  a  southerly,  I  think  you 
said?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — How  did  you  come  to  drift  to  the  northwest  with  a 
J^   southerly  wind?      A. — She  made  pretty  near  a  dead  drift. 

Q. — But  you  say  you  drifted  to  the  north  west  about  40 
miles  a  day,  did  you  not?  A. — I  don't  think  she  drifted  that 
much,  about  30  miles  in  21  hours. 

Q. — Positively  bearing  in  her  drift  to  the  northwest?  A. 
— Nor,-nor'-west  to  west. 

Q. — Now,  after  you  got  through  drifting  where  did  you  go? 
A. — Put  her  to  the  wind. 

Q. — Was  it  east  or  west  wind?      A. — The  wind,  I  think, 
40   when  I  got  the  main  sail  on  her,  the  tirst  time,  I  think  the 
wind  was  about  soutli  southwest. 

Q. — With  a  south  southwest  wind  after  having  drifted  up 
there  could  you  make  the  pass?  A.— No,  sir,  not  from  wheie 
I  was. 

Q. — You  could  not  make  it  by  tacking,  could  you?  A. — I 
suppose  I  could  by  tacking. 

Q.— Which  way  did  you  sail  after  drifting  up  here  north 
northwest,  which  way  did  you  sail  when  you  could  sail  and 
did  make  sjiil?      A.— 1  i)Ut  her  to  the  wind. 
5°       Q.— In  which  direction''      A.— Put  her  on  the  wind  on  the 
starboard  tack. 

Q.— And  where  did  you  fetch  up  on  that  tack?  A.— I 
fetched  up  close  by  the  Aniack  Island. 

Q. — How  far  up  by  It?  A. — I  came  on  the  wind  then, 
south  southwest,  was  heading  for  south  sotitheast,  which 
would  pull  me  right  up  here.      (Indicating.) 

Q._T«>  Atuack  Island?  A.— No,  I  was  carrying  all  sails 
then,  I  could  see  the  volcano — Shlshaldin. 

Q.— You  could  see  that.  What  else  cotild  you  see?  A.— 
I  saw  Amak. 

Q._About  how  far  off  did  you  bear  from  Amak?  A.— 
.\mak  bore  about  east  or  east  northeast. 

Q.— .\nd  how  far  distant?      A.— About  IS  or  20  miles. 

Q.— And  what  did  you  do  then?  A.— I  had  to  lie  there, 
it  was  calm. 

Q.— Did  you  anchor?      .\.— No. 

Q._rH(I  vou  drift  along  anyway?  .\.— No.  it  was  very 
smooth  then  up  there,  I  lowered  a  boat  iind  went  otit  htinting. 


60 


1 1 


;   ^ 


rr'i  r 

5/  '  I 


8 13 


!^    li    !|: 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


(On sta v(>  Ha nso n — froHi*.) 

Q.— You  lowered  a  boat  and  w«nt  out  buntinc  seals?  A. 
—Yes. 

Q.— Did  you  not  say  in  your  direct  examination  that  you 
ran  down  to  PaJse  Pass?      A.— I  did  not  say  False  Pass. 

Q.— Did  you  not  run  to  False  Pass?      A.— I  went  out  by  it. 

Q.— IIo>v  near  did  you  go  to  False  Pass?  A.— When  I 
pot  here  (indicating)  it  dropped  calm. 

Q- — How  far  were  you  off  from  False  Pass?  A. — About 
20  or  25  miles  probably. 

Q. — Did  you  change  your  position  before  thai?  A. — No, 
sir,  not  before  tlie  '"Rush"  came  and  took  me  away. 

Q. — Amak  Island  was  in  plain  sight?  A. — Yes,  but  it  was 
f*>KBy  there  sometimes. 

Q. — Was  the  line  outside  of  the  volcano,  outside  of  the  TTni- 
make  Island  in  sight?      A. — I  seen  it. 

Q. — You  saw  enough  to  know  vou  wcn-e  off  False  I'ass?  A. 
—Yes. 

Q. — You  could  see  t  nough  to  know  that  you  were  off  False 
Pass,  and  you  were  near  enough  to  recognize  Amak  Island? 
A.— Yes. 

Q. — Did  you  take  any  bearings?      A. — I  think  I  did. 

Q.— At  the  time?      A.— I  think  I  did. 

Q. — Did  you  know?  A. — Yes,  I  always  do  take  bearings 
in  cases  like  that. 

Q. — How  numy  seals  did  you  get  in  Hehring  Sea?  A. — I 
don't  remember,  sir,  I  think  the  day  I  got  seized  I  got  12  or 
14. 

Q. — How  many  had  you  before?      A. — I  don't  rememln'r. 

Q. — How  many  had  you  before  that?  .\. — I  d<»n't  know 
that  we  hjwered  mor<>  than  two  days. 

Q. — How  long  did  you  lie  there?  A. — I  was  two  days  be- 
calmed when  the  "Rush"  came. 

Q. — Now,  I  think  I  understand  you,  rajttain  Hansen,  that 
when  you  got  up  to  Sitka  that  a  (romplaint  was  tih'd  against 
your  ship  and  the  court  appointed  somebody  to  defend  the 
ship?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Wliom  did  you  say  the  court  appointed?  A. — A  man 
by  the  name  of  f'lark. 

Q. — Did  you  ever  hear  of  a  man  by  the  name  of  Hughes? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  emjtloy  Hughes?  A. — No,  I  didn't  emi)loy 
him;  I  understo(Ml  he  came  n\>  there  to  w<»rk  on  the  "CNxpiit- 
1am." 

Q. — Came  up  from  where?  A. — T  don't  know  whether  from 
here  or  Seattle. 

Q. — Did  riark  appear  for  you  in  any  way?  A. — No,  I  was 
never  called  up. 

Q. — Did  Clark  ai)i)ear  for  the  shij)?  A. — No,  he  never  had 
n  chance  to,  he  got  sent  away  from  court  himself. 

Q. — Hut  someb(»dy  else  did  appear  for  the  ship,  did  they 
not?  A. — Hughes  was  supposed  to.  I  don't  know  whether 
he  did  or  not.  he  came  in  to  see  me  one  time,  in  here. 

Q. — Do  you  know  about  any  answer  in  that  case  youi'self, 
through  Hughes;  did  you  sign  it?  A. — No,  sir,  I  don't  re- 
member any. 

Q. — As  master  of  the  ship?     A. — That  I  can't  remember. 
Q. — Did  you  not,  tiirough  Hughes,  intervene  to  defend  the 
ship?     A.— Hughes  came  over — 

Q.— Did  you?    A.— No.  sir,  I  did  not. 

Q. — Tlie  <ourt  did  not  ap]M>int  Mr.  Hughes,  did  it?  A. — 
No,  sir. 

Q. — Who  did  a)>polnt  Hughes?  A. — He  was  sent  up  from 
down  here. 


Bi3 


lO 


20 


30 


(<  in  stave  Iliinscn — Cross.) 

Q. — Seattle,  was  he  not?  A. — I  don't  know;  I  think  he 
was  an  Anierlean  hiwyer. 

Q. — Did  yon  not  know  where  nughes  oaiue  from?  A. — I 
think  he  came  from  Seatth*. 

Q. — Or  was  he  sent  up  from  Victoria?  A. — That  I  cannot 
tell,  but  he  came  from  somewhei-e  down  hen?. 

Q. — Wliat  makes  you  say  the  court  ai)i)ointed  a  man  by  the 
name  of  Clark  to  defend  this  ship;  were  you  in  tiourt;  did  you 
hear  anything  of  the  kind?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  heard  the  court  say?  A. — The  judge  asked  if  I 
had  a  lawyer.     I  told  him  "No." 

Q. — Was  this  for  the  ship  or  for  yourself?  A. — ^Vell,  I 
don't  know,  there  was  nothing  sj)ecial  said  about  what  I  was 
there  for. 

Q. — You  were  in  jail  and  brought  <ip.  but  you  don't  know 
what  you  were  there  for?  A. — I  was  there,  I  suppose,  for 
being  seized. 

Q. — Ever  been  in  court  before?      A. — Oh,  yes. 

Q. — A  great  many  times?  A.  — AVell,  I  had  been  in  San 
Francisco  one  time. 

Q. — Yon  are  a  pretty  intelligent  man,  Oai)tain  Hansen, 
been  knocking  around  and  l>een  in  coui-t  before — do  you 
mean  to  say  that  after  your  ship  was  seized,  you,  a«  master 
of  the  ship,  and  for  Mr.  Spring,  did  nothing  about  defending 
that  ship?    A. — I  could  not  do  nothing  in  jail. 

Q. — Did  they  refuse  to  send  a  letter  out?    A. — No. 

Q. — Did  you  ask  to  send  a  lett«>r  <mt?    A. — No. 

Q. — Did  you  ask  to  see  a  lawyer?  A. — Well,  I  did  after- 
wards. 

Q. — And  who  was  the  lawyer?  A. — That  was  after  the 
court  had  adjourned. 

(J. — Who  did  you  see?    A. — Maloney. 

Q. — He  was  not  the  man  appointed  by  the  court?  A. — No, 
sir. 

Q. — Is  Maloney  up  there?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Now,  you  put  in  an  answer,  did  you  not,  as  master  of 
the  schooner  "Winnifred,"  for  yourself  and  Charles  Spring 
of  Victoria,  and  you  swore  to  it  in  tluit  case?  A. — I  don't 
remember  that, 

Q. — Maloney  didn't  do  anything  for  you,  did  he?  A. — I 
don't  think  he  done  anything,  he  went  to  Juneau  and  got  bail 
for  me. 

(J. — How  long  were  you  confined?  A. — I  don't  remember 
exactly  the  date  thev  put  me  in,  but  I  stayed  there  until  I 
think,'^the  I9th,  the  18th  or  19th. 

Q. — But  as  early  as  the  19th  of  August,  did  you  not  put  in 
i;o  an  answer  through  Hughes  and  demand  the  restitution  of  the 
ship?    A. — I  don't  know  whether  I  did,  but  if  I  did  I  thought 
I  was  entitled  to  it. 

Q. — Do  you  not  remember  Mr.  Hughes  bringing  you  an 
answer  that  you  swore  to,  as  early  as  the  19th  of  August. 
A. — I  don't  think  so. 

Q— As  early  as  the  19th  of  August,  1892?  A.— I  only  saw 
Hughes  once. 

Q. — Now,  do  you  remember  in  the  court  when  you  were 
there  that  they  called  the  names  of  the  owners  wrong — let 
60  me  refresh  your  memory:  Do  you  not  remember  of  hearing 
in  that  court  there  that  William  Henry  Dyer  and  Robert 
Sharp,  of  Victoria.  Kritish  Columbia,  were  the  owners  of  the 
"Winnifred."     A. — I  think  there  was  some  talk  of  that. 

Q. — You  told  Hughes  that  was  wrong,  and  that  Charles 
Spring  was  the  owner?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  you  put  in  a  statemert  and  swore  to  it.  did  you 
not,  that  f'harles  Spring  was  the  owner?  A. — Perhaps  I  did, 
I  am  not  certain. 


40 


.;  ; 


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Pr 

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1 

\;\ 

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m. 


'iiiii|i,{, 


10 


20 


3*5 


40 


50 


60 


814 

((iiistavo  llan8cii — Cross.) 

Q, — And  claimed  tho  shiii  for  Spring  us  master?  A. — Yes, 
sir,  I  think  very  likely. 

Q. — Where  was  this  man  Clark,  did  you  see  him?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  he  come  near  yon?  A. — After  the  court  was  done 
the  first  day  ho  came  down  to  see  me. 

Q. — Did  you  ever  see  him  again?    A. — No. 

Q. — And  when  did  you  see  Hughes,  the  same  day  or  the 
day  after?    A. — I  saw  Husrhes  long  before  this. 

Q. — Long  before  you  saw  Clark?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  saw  Hughes  and  had  made  the  statement  that 
Spring  was  the  owner  before  you  saw  Clark?  A. — If  I  ever 
did,  yes. 

Q— If  you  ever  did  see  Clark?  A.— No,  if  I  ever  made  the 
statement. 

Q.— Well,  tell  me  scunehting  more  about  Clark?  You  have 
seen  Hughes  before  this,  before  the  court  appointed  Clark? 
A. — ^Yes. 

Q- — What  did  the  court  want  to  appoint  Clark  for  when 
you  had  a  lawyer?  A.— Hughes  was  not  there  when  the 
court  sat,  and  the  court  sat  again  in  November. 

Q.— But  in  August,  Hughes  was  there  in  August?  A.— 
Yes,  sir,  I  think  he  was  there  in  August,  but  I  don't  remember 
for  certain  what  time  he  was  there. 

Q.— Now  just  tell  me  what  was  said  about  Clark  by  any 
body?  A.— Well,  I  heard  the  district  attorney  had  showed 
him  up  in  court. 

Q.— So  you  thought  it  best.  Captain  Hansen,  to  say  that 
the  court  appointed  Clark  because  you  saw  he  was  treated 
badly  up  there.  A. — No,  sir,  he  was  indicted  for  a  case  there 
himself  and  my  case  came  up  the  first  one. 

Q. — Do  you  mean  your  pergonal  case  or 
A. — I  don't  remember  exactly. 

Q. — This  thing  that  happened  to  Clark 
Hughes  had  been  there?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  Hughes  was  there  taking  care  of  this  matter  of 
the  "Winnifred''  all  the  time?      A. — No.  he  wasn't  there. 

Q. — Were  you  not  here  in  Victoria  wlien  testimony  was 
taken  in  the  "Winnifred"  case?      A. — Here  in  Victoria? 

Q. — Yes,  whfn  Mr.  Spring  was  concerned?  .\. — Here  in 
this  court? 

Q. — No,  this  is  the  Assembly  room,  I  don't  mean  here — let 
us  get  back  to  the  time — were  you  in  any  cotirt  after  the  seiz- 
ure of  the  "Winnifred"  and  after  you  were  in  Sitka,  were  you 
in  any  court  here  in  Victoria  when  testimony  was  taken  be- 
fore the  X'nited  States  consul  and  Mr.  Spring  was  concerned? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  ever  see  Hughes  here?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  report  your  seizure  to  Mr.  Spring?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q.— How?      A.— Ity  letter. 

(]. — How  soon  after  you  arrived  at  Sitka?  A. — Well,  I 
don't  remember  sir. 

Q. — Well,  jiretty  promptly  after  your  arrival  at  Sitka?  A. 
— Yes,  sir,  a  short  time  after. 

Q. — Now,  let  us  see  if  you  remember  the  name  ot  the  firm. 
]^o  you  remember  Hughes,  Hastings  &  Steadraan?  A. — I 
renuMuber  Hasrings  I  think  coming  up  to  Sitka. 

(J. — What  was  he  there  for?      A. — 1  don't  know. 

Q. — Have  anything  to  do  with  the  "Wini.ifred"  case?  A 
— I  had  a  talk  with  him  in  the  nmrshal's  offlcr. 

Q. — You  recognized  him  as  tho  lawyer  for  the  "Winnifred" 
against  the  United  States?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Now.  was  it  not  Hughes,  Hastings  &  Stcadnuin?  A.— 
I  didn't  see  Steadman. 


the  ship's  case? 
was    long    after 


815 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


60 


((jtistave  liiiuHuu — (.'ros»..l 

(). — You  saw  Hastings?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Then  you  had  heard  of  the  firm  of  Hughes,  Hastiugs  iz 
Steadnian?     A. — No,  sir,  I  didn't  hear  any  Steadman. 
Q. — Hughes  and  Hastings?      A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q. — Both  came  to  Hitka  in  this  case?      A. — No. 
Q. — Hughes  came?      A. — Hughes  came  first  and  then  he 
went  down  and  sometime  after  that  I  think  Hustings  came 
up. 

Q. — In  the  same  matter?      A. — Tliey  had  the  Coquitluni 
case  too. 

Q. — He  was  tJiere  in  your  matter,  was  he  not.  and  took 
your  statement?      A. — I  suppose  so. 

Q. — Did  he  bring  any  hotter  from  Spring?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Did    you    not    know  yourself  that  Spring  put  in  an 

answer  when  Hustings  got  tliere?     A. — I  don't  know  that,  sir. 

Q. — Do  you  know  whether  Spring  ojfered  to  defend  the  ease 

through  Hastings?     A. — I  think  it  was  Hughes  up  there  tliat 

told  me  that  he  was  to  look  after  t'ne  "Winniferd"  case. 

Q. — And  Hastings  came  afterwards?      A. — Hastings  came 
afterwards. 

Q. — Now,  then  were  you  tried  before  a  court  or  jury?      A. 
—No,  sir. 
Q. — You  were  let  go,  were  you  not?      A. — No,  sir. 
Q._What  became  of  you?      A. — They  never  allowed  my 
case  to  come  up. 

Q.— You  got  away  in  some  way?      A.— I  got  bailed  out  by 
parties  in  Juneau. 

Q._Do  you  know  what  became  of  the  rest?  A. — I  heard 
afterwards. 

Q._Who  went  your  bail?  A.— Two  parties  on  Douglas  Is- 
land. 

Q.— And  Hughes  got  them  for  bail,  did  he?      A.— No,  Mal- 
oney  got  the  bail. 
Q. — The  attorney  you  have  spoken  of?      A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q._How  long  w'ere  you  in  jail?      A.— I  don't  remember  ex- 
actly the  day  I  was  put  in,  but  I  was  there  until  the  18th  or 
iOth  of  December. 

Q._IIow  long  were  you  in  jail?      A.— I  was  there  from  the 
dav  after  the  "Albatross"  left. 
Q.— How  many  dave  were  you  in  jail?     A.— I  can't  tell,  sir. 
Q._Two?      A.— It  must  have  been  from  the  20th  of  Aug- 
ust to  the  18th  or  19th  of  December. 
Q.— When  were  you  bailed  out,  in  December?      A.— Yes, 

HI  I* 

Q.-What  sort  of  a  pla<'e  is  this  jail?      A.— Well,  it  was 

not  much  of  a  place.  .      ,..,.,        4      m 

Q._Whereabouts  was  it  situated  in  Silka .'  A.— llie 
court  house  is  on  top  of  the  upper  story,  and  the  jail  and  Mar- 
shal's office  is  down  below. 

Q Were  there  gratings  on  the  windows?      A. — Yes. 

Q.— And  you  were  put  in  the  place  below,  were  you? 
.   Yog    sir, 

Q.—^Did  you  have  anything  to  eat?      A.— Y'^es,  sir,  I 
what  they  furnished  us  there.  ,  ^.^  ,^    x      „ 

Q._rretty  good,  was  it?      A.-Well,  I  didn't  starve. 

Q._nave"a  place  to  sleep? 

Q._romfortabIe  place? 
expected  in  a  jail. 

Q_Were  you  put  in  a  cell,  captain?      A.— Yes.  sir. 

Q  —Whicli  side  of  the  entrance  of  the  jail  were  you  on?  .\. 
—There  is  a  long  room  and  there  was  cells  only  on  one  side. 

Q._Can  you  tell  which  side  as  you  go  in  that  is  on?      A,— 
On  the  left  hand  side, 


A. 
had 


A. — Y'es,  sir. 
\. — About  as  good  as  could  be 


:   r 

i! 


M^ll'ij 

I''            ' 

Mfi'ij'" 

8  !  -    i  '    ' 
1  '    ' 

i'i  ■     '■ 

• 

; 

T'l' 


III 


II:  '. 

It 


10 


20 


3'^ 


8i6 

((JiiMdivv  IliiUMen — (."ro88— Ko-diri'tt.) 

Q. — As  .vou  enter  the  buildiug  was  it  on  the  left  side  oi' 
the  right  side?      A. — Tliore  is  only  one  entrunee. 

Q.— Which  side  were  you  put  in,  the  left  side  or  the  right 
side?      A.— The  left  side. 

Q. — Now,  enptuin,  did  you  hetir  anything  up  there  in  court 
any  complaint  against  vo\i  for  raiding  the  property  of  llie 
United  States  and  the  Pribyloff  Islands?      A— I  did. 

Q. — Did  that  have  anything  to  do  with  your  confinement? 

Mr.  Peters: — I  submit  that  if  tliere  is  any  transacticm  of 
that  kind  the  record  of  this  proceeding  slxnild  prove;  it  can- 
not be  proven  by  vi\e  voce  evidence.  Tliey  have  tluit  record 
in  their  hands,  tliey  must  have  it. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  Unit«'d  States: — My 
impression  is  that  he  was  asked  on  direct  examination  about 
the  cliarge  he  was  committed  on. 

Mr.  IV'ters: — The  simple  fact  was  brought  out  that  he  had 
been  put  in  jail. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States:- -lie 
was  ask^d  whether  the  court  employed  counsel  for  him.  Of 
course  the  employment  of  counsel  by  tiie  court  is  a  matter  of 
record,  all  that  sort  of  thing  is  a  matter  of  record. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  yield  to  the  intimation  of  your  honour, 
and  will  not  press  the  question. 

By  Mr.  Dickinson: 

Q. — I  will  ask  you  this  question:  You  have  stated  that  on 
two  separate  occasions  you  raided  the  Pribiloff  Islands,  havo 
you  not,  the  seal  grounds?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — But  this  was  some  time  before  the  seizure  of  the  "Win- 
nifred?"      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Re-direct  examination  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q- — Now,  Captain  Hansen,  you  have  been  asked  several 
40  questions  to  sliow  whether  you  intended  to  enter  Behring  Sea 
or  not.      You  went  into  Tonki  Bay?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — On  Afognac  Island?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Why  did  you  go  there?      A. — For  water, 

Q. — Water  for  the  ship?      A.^Y'es,  sir. 

Q. — As  a  matter  of  fact  where  were  you  bound  on  that  voy- 
age,  were  yon  bound  for  any  jmrticular  place?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Were  yon  tliere  to  get  water  at  the  time  you  went  into 
Afognac?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  take  water  there?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — How  long  were  you  tliere?  A. — I  don't  rememlM'r, 
sir,  two  days  pvobably  three  days,  I  ain't  sure. 

Q. — .\nd  were  you  there  for  any  other  purpose  except  to 
get  water?  A. — No,  not  especially,  then  lots  of  schooners 
went  in  there  for  water. 

Q. — Was  it  a  place  mucli  frequented  by  schooners  for  tliat 
purpose?  A. — 1  believe  some  of  the  schooners  wero  going  to 
transfer  some  of  their  skins. 

Q. — But  I  ask  you  tlie  question:      Was  it  ninch  frt^quented 
°°   for  the  purpose  of  getting  water?      A. — Yes,  sir,  a  good  phu-e 
for  water. 

Q.— I  think  you  stated  that  at  the  time  you  wont  there  there 
were  some  thirteen  or  fourteen  schooners  there?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q. — American  and  British,  or  all  American  or  all  Hritish? 
A. — I  don't  think  there  was  any  .American. 

Q. — So  that  vou  had  plenty  of  company  th.'re?      A.— Yes. 

Q.— The  schooner  "Kate"  was  there?     A.— Yes. 


SO 


f       ! 


8i7 
(Uustavf  naiiHcii— Ue-diit'tl.) 

Q.— Was  8ho  owned  b^-  Mr.  Spring?      A.— Ves,  no  far  us  I 

know. 
Q.— lie  managed  Ler  at  all  events?      A.— Vi-s 
(i.— And  the  "VVinnifeid"  also  was  nuuiagod  by  Mi-.  Spiinu? 

A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i.— And  you  sent  him  some  slvins  that  you   liad  in  the 
"Kate?"      A.— Yes,  sir,  sent  them  home  in  the  "Kate." 
lO       Q.— Did  you  do  anything  else  at  Tonki  Bav  except  trans- 
fer the  skins?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q-— ^\'na  there  any  change  of  provisions  between  the  ves- 
sels? A.— No,  sir,  not  to  my  knowledge.  I  got  a  eas*;  of 
corned  beef  from  the  schooner  Venture,  which  I  gave  her  a 
little  tobacco  tor. 

Q. — Who  did  she  belong  to — was  she  a  Victoria  vessel? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — A  British  vessel?     A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q. — A  sealer?      A. — Yes,  sir. 
^°       Q. — And  you  gave  them  some  wh.it  for  it?      A. — Some  to- 
bacco. 

Q. — Was  it  anything  uncommon  to  exchange  those  things 
between  the  ships  in  that  way?  A. — They  generally  help 
each  other  when  they  can. 

Q. — You  wanted  corned  beef  and  he  wanted  toVtacco?  A. 
— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Y'ou  gave  him  the  tobacco  and  he  gave  yoii  the  corned 
beef?      A. — Yes,  sir. 
30       Q- — And  that  was  all  the  exchange  that  took  place  between 
.you  and  any  shi[>?      A. — Well,  I  think  there  was  a  sdiooner 
there  which  gave  me  a  sack  of  potatoes. 

Q. — What     schooner     was     that?    A. — I  don't  remember 
which  one  it  was. 
Q. — A  British  sealer?    A. — Y'^es,  sir. 

Q. — What  did  you  give  for  the  siick  of  potatoes?  A. — I 
gave  them  nothing;  they  made  me  a  present  of  it. 

Q. — Any  other  exchange  of  civilities    between     you     and 
40  other  ships?    A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  have  a  log  on  the  "Winnifred"?    A. — No,  sir, 
only  a  scrap  book. 
Q. — You  didn't  keep  a  log?      A. — No,  sir. 
Q- — Have  you  got  any  of  your  books?    A. — No,  sir,  the 
captain  of  tlie  "Rush"  took  it  from  me. 

The  Conmiissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — I  would 
like  to  learn,  Mr.  Peters,  why  he  might  not  have  come  in  the 
-Q  lee  of  Ugomak  Island  when  he  entered  the  Pass? 

Mr.  Peters:— At  the  same  time  I  wish  to  point  out  to  the 
court  that  from  my  point  of  view  it  is  perfectly  immaterial 
whether  he  intended  to  go  to  Behring  Sea  or  not,  because  he 
has  not  been  prosecuted  as  he  ought  to  have  been  prosecuted 
under  the  modus  vivendi. 


60 


Mr.  Dickinson  :- 
this  ground. 

By  Mr.  Peters: 


-The    record     cross-examination     covereri 


Q- — The  judge  wants  you  to  tell  him  why  you  did  not  go 
in  under  the  lee  of  Ugomak  Island  at  the  entrance  of  Unimnk 
Pass?  A. — Bcause  there  was  no  shelter  there  with  a  south- 
easter, sir. 


The  Commissioner  im 
no  anchorage  back  there 


th 


e  part  of  Her  Majesty:— Is  then 


m 


III  I 

!' 
II 


nil  I  I 


Sri'. 


•Ill'ljlill 


l;l- 


Si8 

((iiiMfiiv  •  lliiiim'n — 1{»'  (lirccl.) 

Wifiu'HH: — Tlicrc  is  a  very  Htronn  Hdt*  flicro,  and  th<>  iRland 
itNt'lf  In  Ioii^  and  nairow  in  (lie  nortliwcsl  and  HoutlicaNt  di- 
lection,  8(»  tluTc  would  not  be  any  Hlu'ltcf. 

H.v  Mr.  PetopH: — 

Q. — llcsidc  tlnit  tlioro  In  a  vwy  sliontr  tide?     A. — Yes 
Q. — At  wliat  rate  d(M'H  tlic  tide  run?     A. — I  wa«  onri'  in 
lO  tli«'  "Alexander"  for  a  day  and  a  lialf  trvintf  ♦<>  >.'et  tlironfili 
lliere  in  a  nortli wester. 

Tlie  Ooinnilvsioner  on  tlie  i»art  of  tlie  T'nited  Slatis: — Is 
tliere  anytliiiifr  in  liis  evidence  fioni  wliicli  tlie  conrt  can  draw 
any  inference  wlietlier  lie  was  taken  inside  tlie  marine  lea)?ne 
or  outside. 

Mr.  Peters: — We  liave  tlie  most  distinct  evidence. 

The  ('oniniissi<mer  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — I 
20  mean  from  his  evidence. 

Mr.  TV'ters: — TTe  was  taken  outside  of  the  marine  league 
as  shown  by  the  log  of  thi;  vessel  which  took  him. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — We  examined  for  tli«'  i»uritow  of  showinfj 
that  your  Honour.  Whatever  he  says  about  it  we  contend 
that  the  testimony  in  cross  examination  shows  he  was  with- 
in the  territory  of  the  Fnited  States. 

Mr.  Peters: — As  the  point  has  come  up  I  shall  ask  the  wit- 
30  ness — 

Mr.  Dickinson: — What  this  witness  says  about  it  will 
make  no  difference. 

The  rommissioiier  on  the  jtart  of  the  United  St.'ites: — I 
merely  asked  you  wlietlier  there  was  any  refei'eiice  to  lliat 
(piestion.       I  do  not  intend  to  liave  you  re  ojicii  the  evidence. 

Mr.    Peters: — My  im])ression   is  that   there  is;  but   as  tlie 

direct  examination  lias  not  been  iirinted,  T  do  not  tliink  when 

40   the  (|iiestioii  has  been  raised  that  we  slioiild  be  coin|»elled  to 

leave  it  at  all  in  doubt.     T  would  like  to  ask  th«'  qm-stion  how 

far  to  the  nearest  land  he  was  when  Ife  was  seized. 

5Ir.  Dickinson: — T  shall  insist  on  the  argument  in  this  case 
voiir  TT<mour  that  the  vessel  was  ]»roperly  seized  witliin  the 
iuris<rictioii  of  the  United  States. 

Mr.  Pelers: — 1  claim  she  was  not,  and  T  want  to  know  the 
distance.      That  is  material. 

50  The  Uommissioner  on  the  jiart  of  the  Uiii((d  Slates: — My 
impression  is.  that  theie  is  nothing  in  direct  evidence  beariuK 
on  that  point,  that  is  the  reason  I  asked  th(>  <]neston. 

Kediivct  examination  resumed  liy  ^fr.  Peters: 

Q. — I  will  jiisi  pu(  this  (|ueslion  to  you.  Captain  Hansen. 
When  you  wen'  seizt  d  liow  far  were  you  from  the  nearest 
land?      State  about  how  far.      A. — About  IS  or  2(1  miles  sir. 

(i. — In  order  (o  m:ike  it  clear,  show  me  again  on  the  chart 
go    .vour  position  when  seized?       A. — I  was  about  tlit>re. 

ii. — -lust  abon:  where.  How  did  Aniak  Isliind  bear  at  tin; 
time  you  wei'e  seized?  A. — Tletween  east  and  east  and  north- 
east. 

Q. — .\nd  about  what  distance?      A. — IS  or  20  miles. 

{]. — Uan  you  give  me  the  latitude  and  longirude?  \. — I 
li.ive  nothing  on  tlii.-i  iiia|)  to  measure  it  with;  it  i.s  about 
latitude  ft'>. 

{}. — Was  Amak  Island  the  nearest  land?      A. — Ves,  sir. 


10 


20 


30 


40 


50 


6o 


.Sly 

(UumIhvc  JliiiiHcii— Hcdircci— DiKcuNHion.) 

Q. — And  .vou  ciiiiiutl  (ln;in'»'  it  out  willioiil  your  dividt'iM? 
A.— Xo. 

Q. — You  wtTf  casf,  nortlii'iisl,  iiiid  iiboiil  IS  niilcH  diHtiiiit? 
A.— Yt'H. 

ii- — Wiis  if  cUiir  wcjitlH'r  when  vou  wcic  m-izcd?  A. — Yes. 
tir. 

Q. — Could  you  iHliiiilly  see  land  when  you  \vcri>  seized?  A. 
— YcH,  sir. 

(i. — So  that  you  htwv  no  doubt  about  your  poHiliou?  A. — 
I  was  insid(>  of  iliat;  I  was  not  clostT  to  tlu'  sliorc  than  18 
niilcH. 

Q. — At  the  tinu'  you  w(  rt>  sci/.cd  <(iuld  you  actually  see  any 
other  land?       A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — One  was  llic  \'ol<ano?  A. — Yes.  sir.  Schirkaladin  Is- 
land. 

Q. — What  otiici  ind  I'ould  you  sec?  A. — I  could  see 
Amack. 

Q. — .\nd  what  otlit-r?      A. — Ri^lH  down  to  Falso  Pass. 

Q. — So  you  could  seo  other  lands?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

The  roniuiiss'oner  on  the  jiart  of  the  T'niled  States: — 1  d( 
not  think  you  ay  in  youi'  answer.  Mr.  Peters,  that  this  shij. 
was  seized  outside  of  the  jurisdictiiMial  waters  of  the  United 
States — vou  sin>]»lv  allege  that  she  was  seized  in  the  Behrint? 
Sea. 

Mr.  Peters: — We  did  not  think  it  was  necessary  to  say 
further. 

The  rommissioner  on  the  pai-t  of  the  United  States: — The 
Modus  Vivendi  distin>tly  i»rovided  that  if  the  vessel  was  seiz- 
ed inside  the  jurisdictional  waters  of  the  Ignited  States,  slie 
should  be  taken  to  tli  •  Ignited  States  courts. 

Mr.  Peters: — She  i-<  to  be  handed  over  to  British  authority 

The  rommissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — No; 
if  she  was  seized  outside  of  jurisdicCniiiil  waters  of  the  T'nit- 
cd  States  she  was  handed  over  to  liitish  aulhorities. 

^Fr.  Peters: — 1  will  read  what  the  siatement  of  claim  does 
say.  ' 

The  rommissioner  on  the  part  of  the  (hiited  States:— It 
simply  says  "llicfjally  seized."' 

Mr.  Peters: — 1  hav,'  here  the  statement  of  the  T'nit«'d  States 
authorities  settiu};  down  exactly  where  the  vessel  was  seized. 
I  do  not  think  any  techni<'al  objection  should  be  raised. 

Mr.  Dickinsoi.: — We  do  not  raise  any  (]neslion  of  leclinical 
pleadiufjs  afxainsl  mv  learned  fri«'nd. 

The  Uomniissioner  on  (he  i)art  of  the  United  States: — I 
snjtpose  not,  but  the  Uommiisioners  miplit.  or  the  Umjtire 
mi^ht;  in  every  other  case  we  have  ;,'ot  meutioued  the  pre- 
cise place  of  s"izHre. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  may  mention  liiat  we  could  not  put  the  pre- 
cise place  of  si'izure  in  our  Slatement  of  Uiaim  because,  at 
the  time  I  drew  (he  Statement  of  Ulaim,  I  had  not  a  r«'cord 
of  the  proceed! Uijs,  nor  any  informatieu  wliatever  liefore  me. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  jtart  of  the  United  States: — I 
merely  called  ycnir  attention  to  it. 

Mr.  Peters: — -\s  a  matter  of  fact  1  ajiplied,  long  ago, 
throufth  the  proper  authorities,  to  obtain  the  corresjx'ndeuce 
and  tile  statement  of  the  lof-s  of  the  .\merican  shi]is  with  re- 
gard to  tliis  very  matter.  I  did  not  get  that  corresi)ondenco 
until  a  short  time  ago — long  after  our  pleadings  were  drawn 


II- 


i 

I 

i. 
i 

i 


Iff* 


li!h; 


imP'I'Ii 


!!!:::■!:, 


ill!  ' 


lO 


20 


30 


AO 


50 


60 


820 

(duHlavi'  HauHiMi — Kv  eniHM.) 

— iind.  tluTcfons  with  ropird  to  th«  rune  of  th«  Winifred,  wo 
were  to  a  jjrcat  extent,  almohit«'ly  in  ignorance  of  the  faetn — 
tliat  iH  the  exact  nature  of  the  factB — we  prnetienlly  drew  our 
Htatement  of  Chilni  in  the  darli. 

The  Commissioner  on  thi?  part  of  the  United  States: — I 
merely  asljed  you  for  your  own  consideration,  whether  the 
petition  should  not  contain  a  statement  of  where  the  vessel 
wnR  seized.  You  can  proceed  with  the  examination  so  far 
as  I  am  concerned. 

Mr.  Peters: — The  Winifred  was  driven  Into  Behrlng  Hea  by 
stress  of  weather,  and  on  27th  J)ily  slie  was  illef;ally  seized, 
and  her  officer  and  crew  illegally  arrested.  That  Is  what  is 
stated  in  the  pleading;;  that  states,  so  far  as  'Jreat  Britain  is 
concerned,  that  the  seizure  was  llle(;al — it  could  not  have  been 
illeprnl  if  she  had  been  caught  catching  seals  within  the  three 
mile  limit. 

Re-cross-examination  by  Mr.  Dickinson: 

Q. — When  you  speak  of  miles,  do  yon  mean  nautical  or 
statute  miles?    .\. — Nautical  miles. 

Q. — 1  asked  you  on  cross-examinatnon  wluit  the  bearings 
were  that  you  took  on  bringing  up  near  Amak  Island,  and  yea 
said  you  did  not  remember.  Do  yon  renu-mbor  now?  A. — 
Yes.  sir. 

Q. — You  remember  now  that  you  did  take  bearings?  A. — 
I  did  take  bearings. 

Q. — And  you  look  your  disctances?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — You  remember  that  now  distinctly?  A. — I  had  to  put 
down  my  position  every  night. 

Q. — You  saw  with  vour  naked  ev«'  all  this  land?  A. — 
Yes. 

Q. — Now  I  want  to  ask  something  about  Tonki  Bay.  Why 
did  yon  tell  Mr.  Peters  that  yon  did  not  remember  you  took 
anything  off  another  ship  there,  and  then  he  had  to  ask  you 
again  If  you  did  not  get  provisions?.  A. — That  is  a  thing  I 
never  told  before  I  was  asked. 

Q. — You  never  mentioned  it  before?      A. — No. 

Q. — Now,  1  want  to  ask  you  a  question  or  two  about  these 
little  courtesies  that  passed  between  you.  Do  you  remem- 
ber the  names  of  the  ships  that  were  in  that  bav?  A. — The 
"Brenda,"  the  "Libbe,"  the  "Annie  0.  Moore,"  the  "Sea  Lion." 
the  "Umbrina,"  the  'Carmelite,"  the  "Venture,"  the  "Kate," 
the  "Favourite."  the  "Maud  S.,"  I  think  the  "Walter  Earle," 
and  the  "Arities" — that  is  about  all  I  remember. 

Q. — Now  you  had  •\  present  of  a  sack  of  potatoes  you  have 
to.-    us?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Who  gave  you  the  corned  beef?  A. — Thomas  Owens, 
the  Captain  of  the  "Venture." 

Q. — Have  you  told  ns  all  you  got?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  yet  any  salt.  Sealing  salt?  A. — I  do  not  re- 
member. 

Q. — Let  me  refresh  your  memory.  Did  you  get  any  salt 
from  the  "Venture?"      A. — 1  do  not  remember  that. 

Q. — Did  vou  get  any  coal  from  the  "Venture?"  A.^Coal! 
No. 

Q. — You  got  no  coal?    A. — No. 

Q._Did  yon  not  get  20  bags  of  salt  from  the  "Venture?" 
A.— 20  bags  of  salt? 

Q. — Yes.  A. — No,  that  would  have  been  pretty  near  a 
load  for  the  schooner. 

Q. — Or  it  would  be  a  pretty  big  load  even  for  a  13-tonner, 
wouldn't  it?  And  you  did  not  get  any  salt?  .\. — No,  sir, 
not  to  my  recollection.      I  do  not  remember, 


S21 


(fliiMtnvc  MjiiiHt'ii— He  I  riiHs.     A.  I{(|»|)i'ii— Diroct.) 

(j.— V(Mi  would  iciiH'iiibt'i-  if  you  liuil  got  m  much  um  10 
HUckH  of  milt?      A. — Oh,  yes. 

Q.— Did  you  not  gut  1(»  sttckH  of  suit  from  the  "Ventuiu?" 
A.— No. 

Q.— Will  you  BWCHi-  to  that  poHitivcly?  A.— I  dou't  thiuk 
1  got  Huy. 

(i.— Will  you  Hwi'ur  that  you  did  not  got  10  siickH  of  salt  iu 
lO  that  harbour  from  one  of  those  British  shlim?  A.— I  do  not 
remember  getting  any  salt  at  all  there. 

Q.— Will  you  Hwear  that  you  did  not  get  it?  A.— I  can- 
not, it  is  quite  a  long  time  ago. 

Q- — VVill  yon  swear  that  you  did  not  get  a  quantity  of 
coal?      A. — I  do  not  remember  getting  any  coal. 

Q.— ^Vill  you  swear  that  you  did  not?  A.— Well,  that 
would  have  been  more  likely  for  me  to  get  that  salt. 

Q.— W\'ll  did  you  get  it?      A.— 1  do  not  thiuk  I  did. 

Q.— Did  you  get  anything  from  the  "Favourite?"'  A.— 
20   No,  sir. 

Q. — These  shi]»s  were  all  in  there,  and  they  were  all  sealing 
ships?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — On  the  way  home?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — They  were  about  to  sail  for  home,  were  they  not?  A. — 
No,  sir. 

Q. — The  "Kate"  was  going?  A. — I  do  not  know  the  rea- 
son why  she  did  go  liom<  ;  they  probably  all  were  warned  not 
to  go  into  the  Behrlng  Sea. 

Ci. — So  far  as  you  spoke  to  the  ships  in  that  harbour  they 
were  going  sourh?  A. — No,  I  think  some  of  them  went  to 
the  Copper  Islands. 

Q. — Did  you  ever  see  any  of  them  sealing  after  that?  A. 
1  do  not  remember. 

Q. — But  the  "Kate"  was  the  same  owner  as  yours,  and  fit- 
ted out  about  the  same  time  as  yon  did?  A. — Yes,  but  she 
was  on  the  AVest  Coast  before  I  left  here. 

Q. — And  she  was  on  her  way  home?      A. — She  went  home. 


30 


j|;| 


11    iT4l|| 


40 


The  witness  was  not  further  examined. 


SO 


Co 


Alexander  Reppen  was  recalled,  December  21,  1806,  by 
(}reat  Britain,  by  consent  out  of  order,  relative  to  the  "Path- 
Hnder."  of  IH'.tO.      Claim  No.  21. 

Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q. — Mr.  Reppen,  T  think  you  were  examined  here  before? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

(.1. — You  were  mate  on  the  "Pathtinder"  in  1890,  were  you? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — In  that  year  did  you  meet  with  an  accident?  A. — Yes, 
we  carried  away  our  keel. 

Q. — When  was  that?      A. — In  the  month  of  March. 

Q. — Where  wereyou  at  the  time?  A. — We  were  up  to  the 
southward  of  Cape  Flattery. 

Q. — You  were  to  the  southward  of  Cape  Flattery  when  thv^ 
accident  happened?  Did  you  put  into  any  port?  A. — We 
put  into  Neah  Bay. 

Q. — What  did  yon  go  there  for?      A. — For  to  re]>iiir. 

Q. — Did  you  pet  the  repairs  done?  A. —    Yes,  sir. 

Q. — After  yon  had  the  repairs  done  did  anything  hajtpen? 
A, — We  were  i-eady  to  go  away  next  morning  when  tlic  re- 


ill'; 

i!   i'l  ' 

TA- 

It  j', 

'■ 

\m\: 


822 

(A.  Ucppt'ii — Dirccl.) 

vt'iuu'  cut  tor  "Corwiu"  ciiiiie  along  in  tlu'  ovouing  and  svued 
lis  in  tlu-  inui'iiing. 

(^._\Vhal  was  the  next  thing  tliat  llu'  re  cnm-  cutli'i-  did? 
A. — An  olliror  tanu'  on  board 

(i. — Was  it  in  the  at'lcrnoon  or  in  (lie     uiornin;; .'      A. — 
Kariy  in  (lie  morning. 

ii. — Were  ,voii  on  dock  when  tlie  seizure  too]<  plaie?      A. — 
,0   Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Just  as  hriellv  as  ,vou  can  tell  us,  what  was  said  and 
done  by  the  ollicers?       A. — The  ollicer  went  to  the  cabin  !o 
examine  the  papers  and  lie  came  on  deck     and  the  captain 
came  on  deck  and  told  me  tliat   the,v  liad  seized  us 
Q. —  Vour  own  captain?       A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q. — Told  you  the  ollicei'  had  seized  you?       A. — Ves,  sir. 
(i.--Well,  go  on.       .\. — The  ollicer  from  the  "Corwin"  went: 
on  board  the  cutter  and  sent  a  crew  of  men  with  a  tow  line 
on  board,  made  fast  to  us  and  lowed  us  to  Port  Townsend. 
20        (2. — Was  thei-e  any  couversat  iipii  that  you  lieard  taki'  place 
— were  there  any  ordei's  or  instructions  given  that  you  iicai'il 
.-iboul  heaving  youi-  aiichor,  or  anything  of  that  kind?      .\. — ■ 
Th((  same  ollicer  canm  on  board  again  and  lold  us  to  heave 
our  anchor  and  we  wt  ic  bound  for  I'orl:  Townsend. 

Q. — Was   there   any   answer?       .\. — .\uswer    to   that?       I 
went  and  told  the  men  to  lu>ave  up  the  anchor. 

Q. — Did   you   dt»   that    at    once,   or   was   there   any   anstv<r 
before  you  did  that?      A. — Nol  any  that  I  know  of. 

Q. — You   weic  instructed  to  heave  your  anchor  i\ud  you 
did?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q._Tiien  what  did  (hey  do?      A.— Then  they  ';owed  us  out 
of  the  harbour  and  look  us  to  Port  Townsend. 

Q, — ,7iist  before  the  start  on  your  voyage  to  Tort  Townsend. 
what  becanu'  of  the  siiip's  j»ai)ers?       A. — 1  don't  know. 

Q. — You  d(m'l  know   whether  I  hey  were  hfl  on  board  that 
ship  or  not?      A. — No. 

Q._\Vill   you   tell   me   what    reason,   if  any.   the  ollicer  of 

the  "Corwin"  gave  for  llu    seizure,  that  you  hestid?       A.— 

to    No,  I  can't  tell,  I  wasn't  in  the  cabin  at  the  tii.;-'  ilie  papers 

were  examined   or   taken.    I    d(m't    know    whether  tiiey    were 

taken  or  onlv  examined. 

Q._l)i,l  ili"(.  ollicer  of  the  cutter,  in  your  h.'arinir.  give  any 
reason  why  he  seized  y<m?      .\.-No,  he  \U'U'V  said  anything 


30 


to  me. 


A.- 


Q,_You  don't  know  what  he  said  lo  Ihi'  cai-laiu? 

'  *(i.._\Yho  was  the  captain  of  the  "I'atlilinde;- '  at  thai  lime? 
CO   .\. — Captain  Marwin. 
^  ()— Where  is  he?       A.— lie  is  dead  now. 

(K-Wheu  did  he  die?      \.-\U-  died  after  llu    season   was 

o\('i'  in   N'icloria.  , 

Q  -Di.l  the  captain  .■v.-r  tell  y..u  .m  wl.al  gn.un-l  yon  we y. 

j„.i,',.,|-»       \  _N„.  be  1(dd  me  Ihal  w.-  were  s.T/..'d.  <ha    ^is  all. 
Q.-l>id  he  tell  you  the  reason  why  \ou  were  seK'.ed.        .\. 

— No.  nothing. 

,)._„You  were  tak..n  where?       A.-I'orl    low 
4.- How  far  was  that  from  Neah  P.ay.  ab.mt 

<'>o    7*1  miles.  1        •>        V      ' 

(>-    ll.iw    long    were   y(.u    gom,;    llU're.         .\- 
from  N.'ah  Hay  at  fi  o'-lock  in  the  moru.ng,  and  <•: 


\  _l'(irl  Townsend. 

A.     (>(>  or 


\.  -W,'   started 
une  (o  I'ort 


Towr.seu.l  alMUit    I'J  ..'.lock  in  the  f.;';"";"';   „,,,^^,„^,,,„,  ,,,, 

(,      What  hai.i.ened:  after  y<m  got  lo  I'orl  T"^^'^""\;' ' 

Js  done  with  Ihc  vessel?       A.-We  anchored  at   l'..n    ro.v 

send  iMd  (hey  anchored  dose  along  side  of  ns.  ^ 

Q.-Was  th.'re  aiivone  put    on  boiml   your   x.ss.  1.        .x. 


Yes.  I  here  was  an  (dVi'cr. 


S.^3 


^Pf! 


(A.  UcpiH'ii — Din-el. I 

Q. — After  von  }^o)  lo  I'ort  Townsciid  did  liii'  (((liccr  iciniiin 
on  Ltoard?      A. — llo  I'l'iiiiiiiii'd  on  board. 

Q. — What  hapiK'ncd?  A. — IW  rcniaint'd  on  board  and  1 
asivcd  liiin — sonie  o''  liic  nii'u  wanlcd  to  j;<i  asliorc,  and  lie 
said,  no,  bt'tler  rem.  in  on  board. 

il. — -How  lont^  did  this  state  of  all'aiis  conlinnt-,  how  hin;; 
were  ^vou  kept  tiiere?     A. — We  were  iicpt  tiiere  tliat  day  and 
]0   the  day  foliowin};'  ,and  tiie  day  after  that  we  were  reh'ased. 

(i. — Was  tiiere  anytliin^  said  to  you  at  tlie  lime  yon  were 
released,  did  you  lieai-  tlie  instruct  ions  to  reh-ase  {^iven?  A. 
— No.  The  captain  was  on  sliore  and  lie  came  aboard  tlie 
iie.xt  day  and  said  we  were  free  now. 

Q. — So  you  were  l<epl  lliert!  fof  tlie  (hiys  you  iiave  mention- 
ed?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Will  yon  describe  how  thai  lia|)|iened?  A. —  I  heard 
something  aboul  a.  telef^ram  from  Wasliiii<^toii  to  release  us. 

Q. — ^'<>ii  w<'re  released?     A. — Yes,  sir. 
20       (^. — .\'«'.  you  went  about  your  business,  did  you?     A. — \Ve 
went  to  Vicl^)ria. 

ii. — Strai}{lil?     A.^Sailed  into   Nictoria. 

Q. — What  had  yon  been  doinj;;  before  that?  A.— We  was 
lyin!;  there  waitinjr. 

(i. —  111  what  \oy,|H;c  well  you  en);aj;ed?  A. — We  \M're  eii 
jia^ed  in  a  sea'.in;;  11  in. 

t^. — What  nnnilier  of  boats  had  you?  A. — We  iiad  livi' 
boats  and  a  stern  boat. 

Q.— White  men?     A.— White  men. 
3°       t^. — Was,  or  was  not    the  <;rouiiil  about   Xeali    Hay  a  suit- 
able ground  for  seal  tishiii};:  al   tliat   time  of  the  year?     A. — 
Yes  sir. 

(i. — When  you  were  taken  to  I'ort  Townsend,  that  was 
some  sixty  miles  away,  was  it   not?     A. — ^'es,  sir. 

ii. — Was  thai  in  llie  course  of  seals  or  mil?  ,\. — No,  it 
was  away  oiil  of  seals. 

Q. — Ho  y(Mi  were  taken  otf  the  sealing  };rouiid?  A. — Yes. 
sir. 

(J. — Ifow  far  from  the  sealing  ;;roiiiul  was  Xeah  Hay, 
where  yon  were  anchored?     A. — Oh.  about  l!ll  miles. 

(■i. — What  was  your  intention  jibcuil  that  time,  y.mrself 
and  the  captain's,  if  you  hail  not  been  interfered  with?  .\. — 
We  were  read\'  for  lo  start  to  sea  a^aiii,  we  liad  repaired  onr 
tiller. 

(.i. — ^Yhal  were  you  jiDiii};  to  do  when  yon  };-ol  to  sea?  A. 
— \\'ell,  we  were  jt'dinj;  lo  lower  boats  as  snon  as  we  j^ot  out- 
side of  ("ape  Flattery 

The  (Commissioner  on  Ih'  part  of  the  I'liited  Stales:  Were 
Ton  on  a  sealiii;:'  voyage? 

Witness: — Yes,  sir. 

The  ('(unmissioiier  on  the  part  of  the  rnited  States:-- 
Simply  went   in  there  lo  make  rejiairs? 

Witness: — ^'es.  sir. 

(i.—  You   intended   to  .se.il  a;;aiii.  did  yon,   if  you   had   not 
^'O  been  interel'ered  with?     A. — Yes.  sir. 

{}.  -.\nd  when  yon  went  lo  I'ort  Townsend  you  were  taken 
olf  the  sealing  urouml?     .\. — N'es.  sir. 

ii. — Then  insti.-id  of  sealin;;  any  more  you  went  lo  \'ic 
'oria?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

(2.-  That  is  all  that  took  jilace;  the  whole  story?  A.— 
^■(•s,  the  whole  slory. 


40 


^o 


Cross  examimil  i(. II  b\    Mr.  Warren: 


Itllll. 


824 

(A.   I{(']»|itii— Cniss.) 

Q. — When  (  id  you  next  k-avf  Vicioria  aftor  liciiij;;  in  Port 
Townsend?      V. — I  k'ft  Victoria  a  week  after. 

Q. — For  V  iiat  trip?    A. — Started  out  waling  again. 

Q. — A  n  /rtlieni  trij)?     A. — Ves,  sir. 

i^. — Did  you  ^o  to  Uelirinj?  Sea?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

ii. — Yoa  were  in  Victoria  outfit tinjj;,  in  tlu-  meantime,  I 
supijos'  .''    A. — No.  we  lia  our  outfit. 

Q  —You  liad  your  outfit  for  Heiiring  Sea  over  in  Nealv 
]{-.y?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i. — Did  not  need  anytliing  t(t  fro  hiwk  to  Victoria  for?  A. 
— No,  wo  liiid  our  outfit  for  the  coast,  but  not  for  Beliring 
Sea. 

Q. — Tlu'U  before  you  went  to  Ueliring  Sea  you  liad  to  come 
l»aclv  to  ^■ictoria?  A. — \o.  we  look  our  oultil  on  (tie  west 
coast. 

Q. — ^You  would  not   liave  jjone  apain  into  N'ictoria  at  all 
A. — No.  sir. 
20       (i- — l>id  you  outfit  wliiie  in  Vict<tria  instead  of  fj<''"R  ^f»  '!"' 
west  coast??     A. — We  wi'Ut    to  the  west  coast  and  };ot  tlie 
rest  of  file  outfit. 

Q. — After  you  left  Victoria?     A. — After  we  left  Victoria. 

il- — What  did  you  do  in  N'ictoria  foi-  a  week?  A. — (iot  our 
rudder  better  secured— our  tiller. 

(•i. — That  was  after  you  came  from  I'ort  Townsend?  A. — ■ 
Yes,  sir. 

ii. — Wiiat  di<l  \()u  do  to  your  rudder  after  you  pot  to  \'ic- 
titria?     A. — We  liad  it   made  out  of  iron;  we  had  wood  be- 
30   fore;  made  the  tiller  iMitirely  out  of  iro.; 

(i. — Did  you  do  anything  t.)  your  till'^i  v.  ti,!c  you  were  lying 
over  in  the  harlKtur  at   J'ort  Townsend        v. — No. 

(i. — Are  you   sure  about   that?     A. — Ves,  sir. 

(i. — 'I'hen  if  you  icpaircd  your  I'uddei-  over  in  Xcah  Hay  it 
was  just  temii!>rary  repair?  .\. — Well,  we  considered  tiiat  it 
w<Mild  have  iieen  ;ill  I'igiit. 

Q. — ^Vould  you  h.-ive  gone  up  into  Hehiing  Sea  witi,   it  in 


40 


that  condition?     A. — Oh.  y( 

(i. — Then  the  rejjairs  that     you  did     in  Mcloria  we 


nol 

necessjiry  to  make  the  trip  to  Mehring  Sea?       .\. — Not  if  we 
had  been   left  alone. 

Q.— Was  the  "Viva"  in  Neali  Hay   wlii-n   liie  "I'athfinder" 
was  hing  there?      A. — Yes,  sir. 


Q. — She  was  owned  by  Mr.  Munsie  also? 


A. — Yes,  sir. 


50 


Q. — Anil  the  '•Tathfindei'"  was  owned  by  Mi'.  Munsie?  A. 
— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  the  "^'iva"  know  yon  wei-e  in  there?  .\.  -  \\\' 
came  in  fli'st  aiul  she  came  in  afterwards,  aiul  the  <a])liiiu 
came  on  boai'd. 

Q. — Did  she  know  you  were  in  tlieie?  .\. — Just  happened 
t,i  meet. 


Q.— !>id  she  help  yon  repair  the  ru1d< 


A.-N( 


liad 


aliiadv  i'nished  then. 
Q.— When   the  "Vica" 


cam;'  Vdu  had  it   alre.idv  finished? 


60 


Q. — Y(ni  say  you  were  going  to  leave  the  sanu'  day  that  the 
'T'orwiii"  took  you?       .\. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— What  time  of  day  did  the  "Corwin"  take  y<tii?  .\.— 
Early  in  the  morning,  about   5  o'clock. 

Q. — .\iid  yon   were  going  to  leave  some   time  during  that 


da\ 


-Yes, 


sir. 


going  to 


Q. — .\t  night,  or  don't  yoii  remember?       .V. — 
leave  in  the  morninjj. 

(i.  -W;is  (lie  inddei  broken,  or  the  rudder  diains— tell  the 
f 'iiiiiniissioners  what  was  (lie  iiiattc'  w'''.  (lie  niddei'.  \. — ■ 
The  (iller  \\:\H.  «(  coiiise.  loose  and  the  rudder  head 


82  5 


^WT; 


10 


30 


(A.  IJcppt'ii — ("rosH.) 

(). — Was  tlu'ic  aii^lliiiiy  Ihu  uuilter  willi  the  rudder  exci'pt 
Uii'  tilk'r?      A.— Only  the  tiller. 

Q. — The  riuUhr  proper  was  all  right?  A. — The  rudder 
was  all  right. 

ii- — Did  it  taiie  you  a  week  to  repair  the  rudder  after  you 
g<»t  here?      A. — Yes,  it  took  about  a  week  before  we  got  out. 

(■i- — To  rejair  your  tiller?  A. — Yes,  he  took  our  ludd.'r 
out. 

Q. — Then  the  "I'.Ulilinder"  was  hauled  up  on  the  beach  here 
after  she  got  to  Victoria?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  that  was  all  you  repaired,  the  tiller?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q. — How  long  iuiii  you  been  sealing?  A. — Sealing  for  10 
years. 

Q. — How  long  had  (he  "rail.tinder"  been  sealing  before  she 
was  taken  by  the  "Corwin?"      A. — About  a  month  and  a  half. 

Q. — She  had  some  into  Victoria  once  before  for  repairs,  had 
20   slie  not,  the  same  season?      A. — i  can't  tell. 

Q. — Was  she  not  here  on  the  17th  day  of  February  for  re- 
j»airs?      A.—  Yes  she  came  into  Victoria,  once  or  twice. 

Q. — What  was  the  nnUter  with  her  that  she  came  to  Vic- 
toria on  the  17th  of  Febrriary?      A. — It  was  the  same  thing. 

Q. — .Tust  the  tiller  out  of  order?  .\. — We  got  a  new  band; 
the  band  was  broke  that  goes  around  the  rmlder  head. 

Q. — And  where  the  tiller  went  into  the  rudder  head,  it  was 
loose?      A.— It  was  loose. 

(.}. — You  came  into  Victoria  foi'  repairs  on  that  account? 
A. — "\'es,  sir. 

Q. — And  you  were  seized  and  went  to  I'ort  'I'ownsend.  from 
Port  Townsend  to  ^  ictoria,  and  then  went  on  the  beach  and 
I'ejtaired  the  tilh'r?       A. — Yes.  sii'. 

Q. — Did  you  gei  a  new  one  there?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Then  you  went  otT  sealing  to  tlie  north  coast  and  into 
IJeheriiig  Sea  after  that?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Now,  witness,  would  you  no(  have  (  )me  here  with  the 
"Pathfinder" A. — Wo  had  orders  lo  come  here. 

Q. — Did  you  liave  order  the  first  linu'  or  second  time?  .\. 
— \()t  the  tirst  lime,  the  sc-ond  time. 

Q.— ^Wlio  ordered  von  tin  second  time  to  conn  to  Victoria? 
A. — The  captain  said  we  had  orders  (o  c<une  to  Victcuia. 

Q. — Orders  from  tlie  owner?      .\.— It  must  be  so. 

Q._\Vhcii   did    I  lie   <'aptaiii    get    th 'se   orders? 
same  day  that  we  got  released. 

Q. — Then  Mr.  Munsie.  or  wiioever  the  managing  owner  was. 
communicated  lo  Tort  Townsend  with  the  ciijilain  and  or 
dered  him  here  to  Victoria?     .\.-— I  don'i  know  who  it  was. 

Q._Wlioever  it  was,  was  that  the  fact?      A.— Yes.  sir. 

Q._Xow.  did  Mr.  Munsie  know  that  the  boat  was  on;  of  re- 
pair, (u-  whoev.'r  the  managing  ov.ner  was?  \. — 1  don't 
know. 

Q._j)i,i  you  see  the  orders?       .\. — No. 

Q.— What  was  (Ik-  ttoat  ordered  to  Victoria  for.  For  re 
pairs?  A.— I  heliev  the  caiitain  told  me  he  had  got  ord.'rs 
to  con\e  to  Victii«ria. 

Q. — For  rei)aiis?       .\. — Xo,  he  didn't  tell  nn>  that. 

Q._.Yon  were  in  Port  Townsend  one  day?  A.— Tin  (V.n 
we  cann    and  the  other  day. 

Q.— Yon  were  in  Pert  Townsi'ud  two  days?     A.— Yes.  sir. 

Q.—TTow  long  would  it  have  taken  yon  to  have  got  back 
to  \eah  V.:\\  or  Taiie  Flattery  from  Tort  Townsend?  A. — It 
all  diitends  up<Mi  the  wind. 

Q. — Yon  cam"  t)\iv  here,  did  von  not?       .S.— Yes.  sir 

Q._Y,Mi  remember  wh:i(  wind  you  had?  A.— From  Vert 
Townsend  to  \'ir1oi'iii? 


40 


\.-The 


r.o 


K 


WT 


lO 


826 

(A.  RcjUM-n — <'ii»ss — 1{«'  (liro(  I.) 

Q. — Yes?      A. — \V<'  onlv  tciok  ten  Iiours. 

Q. — You  coulfl  liiivf  {Toiic  out  lo  llic  Straits  with  llii'  sumo 
wind,  could  ,v<)u  not?  A. — I  don't  know  liow  tlic  wind  was, 
it  was  ralni. 

Q. — If  vou  liad  wind  liow  lonir  would  it  liavt-  taken  vou  to 
fro  uj)  to  Xcah  Hav?      A. — A  fair  wind  would  take  'H  liours. 

Q.— AVliat  boat  were  you  on  in  IHS!)?     A.— Tlio  "Kate." 

(i.— What  boat  in  iss's?     A.— T  was  in  tlic  "rathfindcr." 

Kc-dircct  examination  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q. — You  say  you  had  (U'ders  from  the  ('a])1ain  to  }jo  rifjht 
ba<T<  to  Victoria?    A. — Yes,  sii-,  the  eai>tain  told  me  so. 

Q — When  did  you  jjet  these  orders?  A. — I  don't  know.  I 
never  asked  him. 

(i- — How  lonj;  did  you  say  it  took  you  to  come  to  Victoria? 
A. — I  think  it  was  about  ten  hours. 

(J.— What  was  the  distance?     A.— About  40  miles. 

(2. — What  did  you  couw  to  Victoria  for?  A. — I  don't 
20  know. 

Q. — Yon  wi'nt  otit  ajj;ain  as  soon  .-is —  A. — I  say  we  laid 
here  about  a  week. 

Q. — Put  a  new  ruddei'  in?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — That  was  part  of  your  business?     A. — Part.  yes. 

Q. — Did  you  do  anythinfj  else  there;  did  you  take  any  snp- 
jdies?     A. — None. 

Q. — And  haviuf;  done  that  you  started  on  yoiir  norlliern 
tri])?     A. — Wo  started  on  our  coast  trip. 

Q.— rp  north?     A.— Fp  north. 

Q. — Followed  up  the  coast  and  then  went  into  Rehrint; 
Sea?  A. — We  went  into  the  west  coast  and  ffot  siii»i>lies  for 
l{ebrin>r  Sea. 

Mr.  Warren : — T  want  to  know  whether  he  };ot  a  new  rud- 
der or  a  new  tiller    He  said  it  both  ways. 

Witness: — Xew  tillor. 


30 


40 


Ommissioners  under  the  Convention     of  February  8,  1896,  Between 
Oreat  Britain  and  the  United  States  of  America 

Chambers  of  the  Legislative  Assembly, 

At  Victoria,  December  24,  1896. 


At  lO.f^O  a.m.  the  Commissioners  took  their  seals. 

Mr.  Peters; — i   understand   Unit   my   learned  friend  on  the 
other  side  has  not  yet  comiileled  liis  rebuttal  <'vidence  in  ilie 
5°    "('arolena"  cas",  and  that   he  still  reserves  the  ri),'ht   to  call 
further  evidence. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Not  to  exceed  two  witnesses,  .nnd  they  will 
be  very  bi-ief. 

Mr.  I'efei's:— Of  ("ourse  our  rebuttal  case  in  answer  to  that 
will  have  to  be  calh'd.  'I'liere  is  one  witness,  Mr.  Sprini;, 
whom  we  desir<'  lo  call  lo  explain  some  entries  referrd  to  by 
Mr.  Lau^hlin  .M(  I.(»an.  these  etilries  having:  been  made  in  the 
Oo  handwritiuft  of  Mr.  Sprin-j;  in  a  book  produced  by  Mr.  .Mc- 
Lean; but  we  Clin  do  ilial  later,  and  meanwhile  that  will  not 
jM'event  us  {foinn  ou  with  the  case  of  I  lie  "Thornton." 

.^^r.  Dickinson; — I  desire  to  call  the  ("ommissioners"  allen- 
tion  to  the  fad  that  when  my  leni'iie<l  friend  sjieaks  of  the 
(losing  of  the  "(""arolena"  case,  with  the  exci'jilion  ol'  the  two 
brief  witnesses  lo  whom  I  have  referred,  we  do  nol  ref(  v  lo 
:'>nylhin>;  but  the  "("arolena"  projiei-.  The  lestimony  of  a 
larp'  number  of  witnesses  lias  been  ri'ad  inio  ihe  "("arolena"' 


827 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


')0 


(Discussion.) 

Ciist',  for  (•()iivf'iii<n((>,  out  of  order,  and  Ji8  to  those  witnesses 
of  course  we  have  t^ir  reply. 

Mr.  Peters: — That  is  thoronghly  understood. 

Sir  (J.  II.  Tiijiper:— If  tlie  (Joimiii.ssioners  please,  1  will 
brielly  open  Hit-  cast;  of  the  "Thornton."  Wo  far  as  the  is- 
sues fio,  there  is  not  niucli  dilTerenee.  if  any,  between  this 
rase  and  liie  ease  that  has  been  undi-r  the  consideration  of  the 
Court.  A  Kre;i(  ;leal  of  (lie  evidence  t.iken  in  (he  case  of  the 
••Carolena"  is  apjlicable  <o  (lie  case  of  (Ik  "Thorn(on,"  and 
conse(|uentiy  i(  s  not  projtosed,  nor  of  course  would  it  be 
liffht,  (o  <;o  ovi-r  all  llial. 

Urietly,  the  case  of  the  "Thornton"  is  on(-  of  st'izure  in  the 
ye:ip  ISSfi.  Thif'  vessel  was  li((ed  out  for  a  coast  and  IJeh- 
liuff  Sea  voyaj;;e.  and,  having;  conijileled  (he  c(»ast  work,  pro- 
ceeded to  Hehriu}'-  S  -a  in  tlu  month  of  duly,  and,  afler  seal- 
ing; in  those  waiers,  was  seized  on  or  about  the  2nd  day  of 
August,  ami  damages  are  claimed  for  the  vessel,  her  loss  of 
catch,  seals  (akcn,  iideresi,  and  so  on,  as  in  the  case  of  the 
"<'arolena."  Then  has  been  some  dilliculty.  but  I  think  we 
have  almost  sniinounted  it,  in  iiresenting  tlie  case,  owinp;  to 
(he  unforiunate  deaih  of  most  of  (licse  who  eomjumed  the 
crew,  includiufi'  (he  '•iiii(ai!i;  (he  diflficuKy  of  flndinf?  the  mate, 
a?'d  (he  impossibility  of  ascer(aininy;  wheie  the  surviving 
members  of  (he  crew,  ov  nearly  all  of  them,  happen  to  n>wide 
at  the  pi'esent  momei!( ;  and  1  may  (ake  occasion  here  to  say 
to  the  Court  that  the  evidence  as  to  the  value  of  the  vessel, 
in  view  of  the  evidence  alre.idy  taken,  cannot  be  very  lonp. 
Vet  there  are  one  or  two  im[iortant  witnesses,  in  addition  to 
those  we  projtose  to  call  (o-day,  whos.'  at(endance  we  could 
Tnive  comjtdled  and  would  h.ive  conipelled  here,  but  we  took 
the  liberty  of  IVeliiijr  satisfied  tliat  our  action  would  meet 
with  (he  apju'oval  of  the  Coinniissioi>ers  under  the  circum- 
stances, in  exc'Misins'  (lie  attendance  'tf  one  or  two  of  them 
because  of  (he  s]ieci,il,  impoi'iant  and  urgent  business  upon 
which  (hey  are  enfia^ed  (o  d.iy  and  will  be  enfiacred  tomor- 
row, notwidislandintr  i(  is  Chrisdnas  Day,  in  {rettinp:  a  ship 
of  some  size  off  (he  slips  in  a  shi|)yard.  The  j)roprietor  of 
(he  shipyard  wailed  upon  us  and  explained  the  j;reat  loss 
thaf  would  be  occasuuied  ])v  the  attendance  of  these  men 
here  to-day;  that  he  dl'sired  to  kee)*  (h(>m  at  work  both  In- 
day  ami  (o morrow,  and  (hi(  as  soon  as  this  ship  was  off  they 
would  be  free. 

1  do  no(  know  (hit  it  is  necessary  to  point  out  anythiufi 
more  than  llu'  similar  claims  of  the  "Thornton"  to  those  of 
the  "<"arolena."  There  is  the  usual  claim  for  the  impriN(m- 
meiK  of  (he  misier  :ind  mate  at  Sitka,  and  (he  other  claims 
iire  all  similar  in  respect.  The  defence  follows  the  same 
lines,  and.  anion;;  otln  r  tluiifrs.  after  iniltiii};  ns  (o  the  ])roof 
ef  I  lie  main  facts  of  ihe  case,  raises  ilie  (piestion  of  owner- 
ship, and  Ihe  r.'ply  of  the  British  ( loveninu'nl  is  I0  Ihe  same 
e(Tec(  as  in  (he  preeediii;;  t  ase.  se  liial  IIk'  pleadings  are 
(uactically  the  sinne.  I  do  not  know,  haviiii;  heard  (he  other 
issues  sofiilly  read,  thai  (he  Coiir(  will  desice  any  further 
reference  to  lliose  issues  w  lo  the  |)leadint;s  in  tin  case.  T 
(diserve  notliin<;  siu-cial;  in  fact,  it  is  almost  a  cojiy  of  (lie 
(idler  pleadintis. 

Mefore  (foiuK  en  with  die  exaniinalieii.  1  wtnild  like  to  stale 
dial  we  have  formally  asked  our  learn 'd  friends  o]i])osile  (o 
jiroduce  for  inspei.'on  (he  iineiitery  of  Ihe  "Thoi'iitoii." 
i.iken  after  sei'.ur*',  and  also  a  li.st.  or  inventory,  of  provis 
ions  Iransferred  aft"r  the  seizure  of  the  '•Thornton"'  to  (he 
steamer  "SI  I'aiir"  ir  au\  other  vessel.  I  would  be  obli;>ed 
If  iii\    learned   IVIeiid   woiild  jiive  me  his  forma'  ;i;>ly. 


I 


m- 


TTT 


i  ■  ■  5 


828 


i;:!ii 


•ili'ir 


10 


20 


30 


(■T)isenHHi«n.) 

Mr.  DickiiiHon : — hi  formal  roply,  we  furiiislu'd  you  some 
(lays  since  witli  a  copy  of  the  iuvenfoi  v  taken  by  the  officers 
of  the  revenue  cutt<'r.  As  to  the  inventory  of  goods  re- 
moved to  the  "St.  Paul,"  we  never  have  had  an  inventory, 
and  did  not  know  of  such  removal  of  goods  until  we  heard 
It  in  the  "Carolena"  case,  if  any  goods  wert'  removed.  Our 
position  will  bi*,  as  to  that,  that  if  any  goods  were  removed 
to  the  "St.  Paul,"  they  had  previously  been  inventoried. 

Sir  C.  H.  Tupper: — I  understand  my  learned  friend  says 
that  he  will  produce  it  if  it  exists? 

Mr.  Dickinson; — If  there  is  an  inventory,  yes.  We  have 
already  telegrai>hed  on  the  subject.  We  have  our  telegrams, 
but  I  do  not  think  you  would  like  them.  We,  of  course,  do 
not  admit  that  you  have  shown  there  is  any  so  far. 

Sir  ('.  H.  Tupper: — I  would  like  to  ask  the  Commissioners, 
before  proceeding  with  this  evidence,  in  view  of 
what  hapiH'ned  in  the  previous  case,  whether  it 
would  not  be  wise  to  exhaust  these'  witnesses  as  to 
values  as  to  all  the  ships  tluit  are  in  issue;  that 
is  to  siiy,  for  instance,  instead  of  Mr.  ("ook's  step- 
ping down  after  he  has  spoken  of  the  "Thornton."  he  t.>  give 
his  knowledge  of  the  other  shijjs,  as  to  which  ?ie  will  be 
called,  thus  getting  rid  of  all  this  class  of  testimony.  I  do 
not  think  there  is  any  object  in  having  those  winiesse.H  ap- 
pear and  re-appear. 

Mr.  DiclTinson: — Not  at  all.  All  we  would  like  is  to  get 
some  intimation  of  such  purpose,  so  we  can  prepare  for  cross- 
examination.  Any  plan  adopted  to  save  timt^  will  uieet 
with  our  instant  concurrence. 

Sir  r.H.  Tupper: — The  only  purpose  of  these  witnesses  as 
to  value  wonld  be  simply  to  examine  them  --Mr  Cook,  for 
instance — relative  to  the  "Thornton,"  the  "Ouv/ard,"  the  "An- 
na Beck" — 


40 


Mr.  Dickinson: — We  are  not  prepared  to  incpiire  as  to  the 
"Anna  Heck"  and  those  others.  If  it  be  announced,  and  it 
meets  with  the  approval  of  the  Commissioners,  we  certainly 
do  not  object  to  taking  out  of  its  ordei;  the  testimony  of  other 
witnesses  here  us  to  the  value  of  all  the  ships  in  controversy. 
Then  we  will  j)repare  accordingly  and  be  ready  at  the  next 
sitting  as  to  all  tlie  shi])s,  but  we  are  not  prepared  to  cross- 
examine  any  witnes,ses  this  morning  as  to  anything  except 
the  "Thornton."  However,  I  see  no  objection  to  putting  it 
50  in  and  letting  iiim  come  back  for  cntss-examination  if  we  re- 
quire him. 

Tlie  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  T'uited  States: — 
What  right  have  we  to  assume  that  the  counsel  are  at  issue 
about  the  value  of  all  these  shii)9? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — We  are  decididly  at  Issue,  may  it  please 
your  Honour. 

gQ       The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the    I'nited    States:— 
-About  th^  value  of  all  of  tlieni? 

Mr.  Dickinson — Yes,  your  Honour,  on  this  record  the  value 
of  all  of  them,  substantially  and  radically. 

The  ConinilssiuHcr  on  the  part  of  the  T'nited  States; — T 
think-  it  would  lie  more  convenient  for  counsel  to  juit  in  tirst 
tlie  pajiefH  of  tliis  M-ssel,  s(v  that  Wi-  ni'iy  see  what  she  is  be- 
lore  taking  the  evidence  as  to  the  \;iliie. 


8j<; 

(H.  ,].  Cook— Dirett.) 

Mr.  Dickinson: — To  sliorten  time,  tlic  counsel  for  Great 
Brituin  and  ourselves  agree  on  the  following  admissions: 

The  "TTiornton"  was  built  at  Dungeuess,  in  the  United 
States,  in  1861.  She  was  first  registered  as  a  British  vessel 
at  Victoria  in  1804,  with  a  registered  tonnage  of  29.36. 


10 


40 


Hubert  John  Cook  was  called  as  a  witness  on  the  part  of 
Great  Britain  and  duly  sworn. 

Direct  examination  by  Sir  O.  H.  Tupper: 

Q. — Were  you  examined  in  the  "Carolena"  case?      A. — 
No. 
20       Q. — You  live  on  Catherine  street,  Victoria  West,  in  the 
city  of  Victoria,  Mr.  Cook?  A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i. — You  have  lived  here  for  34  years,  I  believe?      A. — 34 
years. 

Q. — You  are  ^i  shij)  carpenter?      A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q. — And  have  been  ever  since  you  came  into  the  country? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  shljiyard?      A. — I  had  the  shipyard  that  Turpel 
has  now  for  16  years. 

Q. — I  believe  you  built  a  pretty  large  ship  there?      A. — 
30   Well,  I  built  a  steamboat  there  at  one  time. 

H. — You  built  sloops  as  well?      A. — Yea,  sir. 
Q. — Do  you  know  the  steam  schooner  "Thornton?"      A.— 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  know  her,  rather?      A. — Yea,  sir. 
y.— When  di'l  you  first  know  her?      A.— I  think  1873  is 
the  first  I  knew  of  her.      I  knew  her  before  that. 

Q. — That  was  wh'n  she  was  a  sloop?  A. — Tliat  was 
when  she  was  a  sloop. 

Q. — Had  you  anything  to  do  with  the  schooner  in  1887? 
\. — Yes,  sir. 
Q.— What  had  you  to  do?      A.— I  rebuilt  her. 
(1.— For  whom?       A.— Captain  Warren. 
Q. — In  your  sliipy  >rd?      A. — Yes,  dir. 
Q. — Tell  the  Conimissioners.  if  you  please,  what  work  you 
did  at  that  time,  the  cliaracter  of  tlie  work,  on  this  vessel. 

Q. — In  the  flrHt  place,  me  and  Captain  Warren  i)ut  a  new 
deck  and  deck   frain;'  in,  and   then   stiipited   off  all  the  old 
plank  and  i>ut  a  new  frame  between  each  of  the  frames  th;  t 
:;o    was  in  then.  o!-.  account  of  their  being  too  far  apart. 

Q._Taking  our  the  old  ones?  A.— No.  leaving  the  original 
frame;  the  original  frame  is  a  splendid  frame;  white  oak;  put 
in  a  new  frann'  l)etween  eacli  of  them. 

Q.— What  did  you  re-plank  it  with?  A.— I  hardly  recol- 
lect whether  it  was  two  and  a  ijuarter  or  two  and  a  half 
planking. 

Q._What  kind  of  stuff?      A.— Douglas  pine. 
Q._What  else  did  you  do?      A.— Then  slie  was  replanked, 
new  covering  hoards',  hatches,  new  bowsprits;  well,  every- 
60    Idling  complete.  .     ,    ., 

f^.—Whit  did  yon  do  widi  (he  stern?  A.— I  raised  the 
s^tf  n  16  i Inches. 

Q.  -And  completely  fltit  d  (he  ship  ui»?      .\.— ^  es. 
Q-   How  loi'g  was  i-he  on  (he  stocks  for  that  work?      .V.— 
\  liidt   over  (  hneii  uioiiOis.      By  the  time  I  got  through  with 
iier  thei,'  was  Mothing  of  (he  original  but  (he  stem,  s(ern- 
])osts.  keel,  c.iling  and  (he  original  framework.  lef(. 
g.__Hhe  was  nractically  a  new  ship?      A,— Yes. 


fV, 


'    pr       ! 


!    p 


i\]'- 


i      i\ 


i^'il 


l||H.: 


I 


S30 

(11.  .1.  Cook — Direct — C'loisw.^ 

Q. — Was  shi'  roveiv'd  iii  Hint  (iiiif?  A. — Vi-s,  8ir,  <()i»im"1' 
fasteiH'd  lip  to  llio  vvater  mark. 

<l — How  far  did  llic  rcplaiikinft  f;o  down?  A. — Jtifjlit 
from  tiic  kt'i'l  to  tlic  Hunwaif. 

<i. — l>id  ^vou  ioave  .my  bad  wood  in  her?  A. — Nom;  wlial- 
over.  ■  ! 

Q.— I  suppoMi*  tbat  was  Wfove  she  hud  the  ouyino  and  boiler 
jQ    put  in?  A. — Yes. 

(i- — Wliat  did  voii  consider  lier  wortli  at  tliat  time?  A. — 
There  was  ont'iei-  alieration  after  (liat. 

(i.— Wliat  wa.s  llie  other  alteration?  A.— I  took  out  the 
stern  post  and  liad  (o  i)ut  in  larjier. 

Q.— Was  that  in  ISSl?  A.— That  would  be  in  1881.  Had 
to  put  in  iarfiei-  stern  jiost  of  oak,  new  deadwood.  new  rud- 
del'  and  rudder  j)ost.^. 

Q. — For  whar  purpose?      A. — And  lengtheiu'd  out  the  keel. 

Q. — For  what  ])urpose?      A.— It  was  to  take  the  shaft. 
20       Q.— Make   a   sleeve  for   the   shaft?       A.— To    receive    the 
sleeve. 

Q. — When  they  pr(<posed  to  jiut  steam  into  her?  A. — 
Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Are  you  able  to  i;ive  the  value  without  her  steam 
eiiuijunent  immediately  before,  let  us  ]»ut  it  in  ISSl?  .\.— 1 
am  not  soing  into  the  eiifrine  and  boiler,  tlie  machinery  jtart, 
only  the  woodwork.      I  valued  her  then  at  about  $.',2(10. 

Q.— Without  her  steam?       A.— That  is  before  I  made  the 
other  alteration. 
30       Q.— That  was  in  l.'^M?      A.— \o,  that  was  in  1S77.      Tlien 
she  was  worth  about  .f5,200. 

Q. — What  worild  you  say  her  value  was  as  ji  shij)  when 
you  undertook  to  prejtare  her  for  steam?  .\. — AN'Iiat  lier 
value  would  be? 

Mr.  La nsi lip;:— What  year  was  that? 

Sir  C.  IT.  Tupiter:  That  was  in  ISSl. 

i-l. — Was  that  vessel   fretpiently  on  y(»ur  slip?       A. — Yes, 


40 


sir. 


(.1. — Did  Caplain  Warren  take  jfood  care  of  her?  A. — Jle 
always  took  {jood  care  of  liis  vessels. 

(i. — -And  did  you  see  that  vessel  up  to  the  year  she  was 
lost  or  seized,  ISSti?      A. — 1  did. 

Q. — And  what  was  her  condition  when  you  lasr  saw  her? 
A. — .\s  flood  as  ever. 

Q. — You  liav('  a  book  showing  when  this  vessel  was  on 
your  slip?       A. — I  liave. 

Q. — You  kno>\    notliin<;  of  (he    value  of    her    (Mijjiiie    and 
50  boiler  and  that  kind  of  work  that  was  done  on  her?      A. — 
No. 

Q. — That  is  the  book  is  it  that  you  hold  in  ytmr  hand?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  lliat  bo(!k  jjives  the  dates  when  she  was  on  your 
slij)?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — .\nd  tliaf  is  in  your  own  haiidwritiuii?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

(.}. — Hy  you  av  (lie  time?      A. — ,\t  tlie  very  time. 

(i. — And  it  shows  die  day  tlie  vessel  was  on  your  sliji,  and 
(he  day  she  came  off?       A. — Yes. 
^°       Q. — .\iid  the  dates  to  which  you  have  referred  are  in  that 
book?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

Cross-examin.'tion  by  Mr.  Warren: 

ii. — Mr.  Cook,  von  sav  voii  praclicallv  rebuilt  tliis  boat  in 
1877?      A.— Yes,"  sir 

(i. — In  wliat  (ondition  was  she  wlien  you  first  saw  lier? 
A. — Tfer  frame  was  in  fxood  condition,  but  the  deik  frame  was 
sroue. 


«3' 


20 


30 


(II.  .(.  r'ook — CiosH.) 

Q.— WiiH  litT  i)liiiikinK  Hoiinil?  A.— Xo,  hIic  had  l)('«'n 
iiHliorc  a  tji'i-at  iiiaii.v  tinier,  and  tlicrt-  wan  a  meat  many  ttbort 
l>laiiks  in  her  iKiltorn. 

(i.— WIk'  waN  in  had  Hhapo  in  1«77  bt.'foro  you  repaired  her? 
A. — \V('II,  not  yood. 

Q-— Wi>8  any  of  flial  bad  tondilion  dne  to  old  age?      A.— 

^^■eli,  a  <;reat  deal  of  11  was  on  acronnt  of  liei  l)(<in}j  aHliore. 

10       ^i- — 'l'''"t  'l*'"'^   '"'*    exactly   answer   (he  (luestion.       I    ask 

yon  if  a  v'loit  deal  of  it  was  dne  (o  old  ape?      A.— No,  not  a 

ftieat  deal  of  it. 

Q. — Was  any  of  il?      A. — A  litlle  aronnd  the  top. 

Q.— That  is  (he  de.-k''      A.— Yes.  the  deck. 

(i. — Had  she  rot  led  any?      A  —The  beam  ends  were  gone. 

ti- — «*^lie  had  been  in  H(  rininiaKe.s  with  the  Indians,  had  she 
not.  and  had  some  holes  in  her?  A. — TluTe  had  been  holes 
in  her  where  she  had  got  short  lenfjlh  plank  pnt  in  her  bot- 
tom. 

(i. — Did  she  have  and  holes  in  her  made  by  gnns?  A. — 
Xo.  not  that  I  am  aware  of. 

Q. — Ballet  holes?      A. — Xo,  I  didn't  notice  any. 

Q. — In  1S77,  after  yon  jjot  throngh  with  her,  she  was  practi- 
cally a  new  bo;)r,  yon  think?      A. — Yes,  she  was. 

(2. — And  the  new  i)art  yon  ]»nt  in  was  worth  very  mnch 
more  than  the  <ild  pai't?  A. — She  was  wortli  more  when  I 
was  done  with  her  than  she  was  when  she  was  btiilt  first. 

Q. — Well  then,  yonr  bill  wonld  represent  the  complete  valu*« 
of  the  ship?       \. — It  wonld  at  that  time. 

Q.— Was  ycair  bill  |.')(MM)?  A.— My  bill  at  that  time,  what 
I  pnt  in  (o  Captain  Warren? 

Q.— Was  yo\ir  bill  in  1S77  !«!,')()(»(>?       A.— No.  certainly  not. 

Q. — Yon  hiiv^  jnst  stated  (hat  when  yon  rebnilt  her  in  1877 
she  was  wortli  7nore  than  when  she  was  ori}j;inally  bnilt  in 
ISCil,  and  yon  have  also  valned  her  at  |<5.()0().  and  yon  have 
also  stated  that  yonr  bill  was  not  ^o.OOO.  Now,  will  yon 
e.\I)lain  how  she  <(>nld  be  worth  |i.~)(((K»  under  thos(>  cii'<Mim- 
stnces.  .\. — Slie  was  a  better  vessel  beciuise  she  liad  mort; 
40    frames,  she  had  two  frames  where  sh«'  only  had  one  before. 

Q. — Yon  left  all  tht>  old  frames,  and  just  pnt  in  the  frames 
between?  A. — "^'es,  all  the  old  frames  were  in,  they  were 
white  oak. 

(i.— What  did  yon  i)ut  in  new  frames  for?  A. — Hecanse 
the  others  were  (00  far  ajtart. 

ii. — Did  you  leiifithen  the  "Thornton"  any?  A. — No.  only 
bv  the  keel,  when  her  i)ro])eller  was  jmt  in,  lengthened  1':"' 
keel. 

(i. — Yon   never  liMifithcned   (he  ship  projier?     A. — No. 
5°       Q. — Yon  merely  lengdiened  the  keel  to  take  the  propeller? 
A. — Yes,  to  take  the  ludder  post. 

Q. — What  was  your  bill  in  1S77  for  this  one  boat?  A. — 
My  bill  was,  I  think,  f!12tn  and  some  odd  dollars.  That  wa.s 
my  bill  ahtne. 

Q. — And  you  are  cerlain  that  *hat  was  for  work  on  the 
"Thornton"  only?     A. — That  was  for  laboi'. 

Q. — Yoni-  own  labor?     A. — Yes. 

Q.— Did  (hat  cover  materials?     A.— Oh.  no. 
60        ^i' — ''i'1   .^"a   '"'.^    *'ie  material?     .\. —  .\d. 

(^— Who'did?     A.— ("aiitaiii  A\'arr«ii. 

Q. — Y<ni  do  not  know  wha(  he  paid  for  (hem?  A. — Well, 
no.  not  exact. 

Q. — TIow  long  were  you  busy  on  (he  boat?  A. — A  little 
over  1 1  months. 

(■l- — .\nd  foi'  your  personal  sei'vices  vou  had  something 
over  !|ii,'_MI(l?     A.^Yes. 

(■i- — Did  yon  ]iav<.'  any  (Uie  assisting  yon?    A. — Yes, 


TflF*"^ 


Wl' 


'||I>|!1: 


lO 


20 


(\l.    .1.    ('(M>k — Cl'dHH.) 

Q.— And  wiTi"  they  piiid  b.v  .vou  or  by  Caiitain  Warren? 
A.— Thi-rc  was  u  lit  tit-  mntnicl  I  liad  on  it.  1  paid  my  own 
men. 

g, — What  Hort  t»f  a  contract  did  you  liave  witli  (.'aptain 
Wanvn,  tliat  you  would  rebuild  llial  boat  if  ho  svouid  furn- 
ish the  niatoriaJH?     A. — No. 

Q. — What  waH  your  contract?  A. — I  had  a  contract  for  a 
part  of  the  work;  that  part  I  cannot  think  of;  I  have  lont  all 
recordM  of  it;  and  what  part  of  that  work  it  was  I  d(»n't 
know. 

Q. — You  have  Htated  that  you  practically  re-built  the  boat. 
Now,  do  you  mean  to  Hay  that  you  practically  rebuilt  the 
boat  or  you,  witli  the  work  of  other  people  practically  re- 
built her?     A. — I  carried  on  the  work. 

Q.— You  did  all  all  the  work?     A.— I  did. 

Q. — AVhen  you  Hay  you  had  i)art  of  the  contract,  what  do 
you  mean?  A. — 1  had  a  small  contract  of  Kome  kind;  I  don't 
know  what  it  was  to-day.      That  i»art  I  have  forgotten. 

Q. — Well,  Mr.  t'ook,  your  bill  added  to  the  cost  of  the  ma- 
terials that  went  into  tliat  b(»at  would  be  the  cost  of  re-build- 
ing her,  would  it  not?     A.— My  bill? 

g. — Yes,  l.'JtlO  and  odd  dollars,  added  to  whatever  the  ma- 
terials cost  Captain  AYarren,  would  be  the  total  cost  of  re- 
building that  boat  in  1877?  A. — No,  that  waH  only  what  I 
had  from  t'aptain  Warren,  my  wages  and  the  small  contract. 
Then  he  paid  outside  i)arties. 

Q. — For  doing  what?  A. — There  was  another  man  work- 
ing on  her  besides  that. 

Q. — I  have  asked  you  that  once.  A. — .\nd  Captain  War- 
ren was  working  on  lu'r  himself. 

Q. — How  huig  did  ('aptain  Warren  work  (m  her?  A. — He 
heliH'd  jHit  in  her  deck  frame  and  deck. 

Q. — How  long  did  that  take?  A. — And  <overing  board. 
Oh.  I  am  sure  I  dcm't  know;  I  haven't  got  any  records  of  it. 

Q. — He  worked  at  tlu'  same  time  that  these  other  things 

were  done  that  you  have  be«'n  recollecting  about,  did  he  not? 

A. — He  didn't;  I  don't  think  lie  was  working  at  that  time  I 

'^     planked  her;   I  think  ("aptain     Warren     was     aboard     the 

"Beaver"  at  that  time. 

y. — During  a  part  of  those  11  months  you  si)eak  of.  Cap 
tain  Warren  was  working  on  this  boat,  is  that  true?  A. — 
Yes,  a  part  of  the  time. 

Q. — What  other  man  was  working  on  her  beside  the  one 
you  hired.  Captain  Warren  and  yourself?  A. — A  man  by 
the  name  of  Slater,  I  think. 

Q. — Is  that  the  man  you  hired?  A. — No,  Captain  Warren 
hired  him. 

A. — He  heliM'd  to  copper  her. 
there  during  the  11  nuuiths?     A. — 
have  got  no  time  book  and  nothing 


3<^ 


SO 


60 


(i.— Wluit  did  he  do? 

Q. — How  long  was  lu 
That  I  can't  tell  you 
to  show. 

iy — He  was  there 
don't  know. 

Q. — It  would  not   take  long  to  cover  that   boat,  would  it? 
A. — I  d(m't  know  how  long  it  look. 

Q. — How  much  do  vou  hink  it    would 
"Thornton"? 

The  Commissioner  on  the  jtart  of  the  United  States 
he  know  how  much  it  cost,  Mr.  Warren? 


I 

a  very  short  time,  was  lie  not?    A. — I 
lat  b 

cost   to  cop]»er  the 
Does 


Mr.  Warren:— I  should  think  lie  ought  to. 

(Tc  witnes:)      Q. — Do  you  know  how  much  it  would  cost 
to  (•(►ppcr  the  "Thornton?"       A.— The  copper  alone? 
Q.— Yes.      .\.—l  think  it  cost  about  f800  at  that  time. 


mm^ 


«33 
(II.  .1.  rook— i'l-oHx.) 

•Tlioiiilim?"       A. 


-Tliiil  is  for  top- 


so 


(i. —  Flow    loilf^   WJIH   till' 

\H'V  and  t'oiijMM'inn. 

y. — How  loiin  wim  tilt'  "Tlioiiilon?"       A. — .ll   feet. 

Q. — How  <l»'i'i>  WII8  hIu'  Im'Iow  Ww  water?      A. — Six  ffci. 

(i. —  h(»  voii  know  how  niiicli  <-o|iiM'r  it  would  take  to  coitiKT 
the  "Thornton?"       A. — Ah  near  as  I  can  rt'collcct   it   would 
take  4r>(»  Hliects,  lu'twt'i'n  that  and  "lOO. . 
lo       Q.-.Vow  will  you  naint'  anv  other  man  that  worked  on  the 
"Thornton"  at  that   time?       A.— No. 

Q. — In  addition  to  the  total  coHt  of  reiuiirinu;  that  boat 
there.  .Mr.  Cook,  how  niiich  would  voii  add  to  make  up  hei' 
total  valuatioji?       .\. — I  don't   underHtand  you,  Hir. 

Sir  ('.  II.  Tapper: — I  confesH  I  do  not  understand — 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Let  me  explain  that  the  witness  has  sworn 
to  her  valuation,  sworn  that  he  did  this  work  on  her;  now 
the  question  is,  in  addition  to  what  he  knows  went  into  hf." 
10  in  the  way  of  time  and  labor  and  material,  how  much  does  he 
add  to  nnike  up  this  valuation  that  he  ^ives?  A. — I  would 
add  about  Ifl.')')  <m  to  that  besides  what  she  cost. 

Q. — Vou  moan  beside  what  it  cost  to  repair  her?  A. — 
Yes. 

Q. — IJid  you  make  any  entries  of  these  items  that  you  are 
testifyiufj  about,  at  that  time?  A. — I  did  at  that  time,  but 
where  it  is  now  I  don't  know 

(i. — You  haven't  them  now?  A. — No,  I  have  not  nothing 
of  it  now. 

(J. — And  you  have  not  refreshed  your  recollection  recently 
from  any  memorandum  of  your  own?  A. — I  f;ot  the  recol- 
lection of  haviujr  a  memorandum  of  my  own. 

Q. — 1  asked  you  if  you  have  refreslu'd  your  recollection 
from  these  mcTiujranda  lately.       A. — No. 

Q. — How  lont,'  since  you  have  seen  them?  A. — \ot  since 
I  finished  the  "Thornton." 

Q. — That  is  I'tt  years  ago?      A. — That  is  2I>  years  apo. 

Q. — And  yon  renu'uiber  the  amount  of  money  that  was  paid 
40   you  20  years  a«o  by  Cajitain  Warren?       A. — I  can;  I  have 
only  one  entry  that  1  am  aware  of. 

Q. — And  you  can  give  mo  the  details  of  the  varitms  things 
that  vou  put  into  that  ship?  A. — I  have  one  entry  left  of 
the  "Thornton." 

Q. — Have  you  gi»t  that  with  you?      .\. — No,  I  have  not. 

Q._\Vhat"is  that  entry  about?  A.— Tliat  is  money  I  re- 
ceivt'd  from  rajitain  Warren. 

Q.—That  is  this  price  that  you  have  given?      A. — l,24tl  and 
8(»me  odd  dollars,  T  don't  know  exactly. 
5c       Q. — You  have  not  any  book  giving  the  details  of  the  planka 
you  i»ut  in  there  and  exactly  what  you  did  t(»  the  boat?     A. — 
No,  I  haven't. 

Q._Or  how  much  the  cop]»er  cost?  A.— The  jiriee  of  cop- 
l>er  about  that  tinu' 

Q. — Wail  a  minute  — 

The  Commissioner  on  tlie  i)art  of  the  I'nited  States:— He 
has  said  distinctly  twice  that  he  luis  no  menu)randum  book 
except  this  one  to  which  he  last  refers. 
60       Q.— Now.  Mr.  Cook,  the  total  cost  of  rei»airing  this  vessel 
.n  1S77  as  estimated  by  you  is  !?:{,r)0(),  is  it?       A.— Yes. 

Q. — Where  did  you  get  those  figures  from?  A.— I  could 
figure  it  up  to-day. 

Q. — Did  you  figure  it  up  before  you  took  the  witness  stand? 
A. — I  looked  it  up  last  niglit. 

Q.— Looked  it  up  where?  .\.— To  flio  lest  of  my  recollec- 
tion. 

53 


IMAGE  EVALUATION 
TEST  TARGET  (MT-3) 


1.0 


I.I 


■»  IK   12.2 


lU 
u 


140 


IL25  HI  1.4 


my 

I 


1.6 


^ 


v 


^. 


ri>- 


c\ 


\ 


v\ 


Sciences 
Corporation 


23  WBT  MAIN  STHIT 

WIBSTIR,N.Y.  UStO 

(71«)  •73-4303 


'^ 


^ 


834 


'4r 


'  '' 


I       I 


^H.  J.  Cook— CroM.)       * 

Q. — Where  did  you  look  It  up?  A. — Because  I  knew  the 
prices  of  thingH 

Q. — What  do  j'ou  mean  by  looking  it  up,  that  yon  thought 
about,  or  that  you  looked  at  something?  A.— What  she 
cost? 

Q. — What  did  you  look  at?     A.— I  looked  at  nothing. 

Q. — Did  you  not  look  at  an  affidavit  or  a  statement  that 
lO  Captain  Warren  made  once?     A. — No,  I  had  none. 

Q. — Did  you  ever  see  it?      A. — No. 

Q. — You  have  talked  with  Captain  Warren  about  this,  have 
you  not?     A. — No. 

Q.— Is  that  so?      A.— That  is  bo. 

Q. — You  have  been  in  the  court  room  every  day  since  this 
session  commenced?     A. — I  have. 

Q. — And  Captain  Warren  has  been  here  some  pa  i  of  the 
time?     A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  you  have  seen  him  outside  of  the  court  room?     A. 
20  I  gpoke  to  him  once  about  the  spars,  outside  here,  and  that  is 
the  only  thing  I  ever  spoke  to  Captain  Warren  about;  as  for 
anything  else,  I  know  nothing. 

Q. — How  much  did  the  "Thornton"  depreciate  in  value  from 
1877  to  1881?      A.— Very  little. 

Q. — Would  not  depreciate  at  all,  would  she.  Mr.  Cook? 
A. — I  wouldn't  say  there  was  flOO  difference  in  her.  She 
was  a  vessel  well  kept. 

Q. — You  have  lived  in  Victoria  for  a  great  many  years? 
A. — Thirty  or  forty  years. 

Q. — And  Captain  Wiirren  has  lised  here  for  a  great  many 
years?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  you  have  seen  him  often,  I  suppose,  in  recent 
years?  A. — I  have  not  seen  Captain  Warren  to  have  any 
conversation  very  much,  not  since  the  "Thornton"  left  here 
it  1886. 

Q.— Talked  with  him  before  1886,  did  you,  about  it?  A.— 
Oh,  yes. 

Q.— Ivots  of  times?    A.— Yes. 

Q. — But  since  the  year  she  was  seixed  and  this  claim  arose, 
you  never  talked  with  him?  A.— 1886,  no.  1881,  no.  The 
time  the  "Annie  Be<'k,"  I  was  on  her.  I  don't  know  when 
that  was;  before  1880,  anyway.  (Refers  to  memoranda).  Not 
since  1884. 

Q. — When  you  place  Ihis  value  on  the  cost  of  rebuilding 
the  "Thornton"  in  1877,  I  suppose  yon  must  place  a  value  on 
the  services  that  Captain  Warren  contributed,  do  you  not? 

50  The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  Fnited  States: — Mr, 
Warren,  I  do  not  understand  that  he  has  placed  a  value  on 
the  estimated  cost  of  re-building  the  vessel  in  1877. 

Mr.  Warren:— He  has  estimated  13,500;  he  told  me  he  ad- 
ded f  1,500  to  the  cost  of  repairing  to  make  a  cost  of  |5,000. 

Mr.  Dickinson : — May  it  please  the  court,  we  want  to  be  ex- 
tremely brief  with  this  witness,  but  we  have  our  own  full 
knowledge  of  the  case,  and  are  pursuing  the  strict  lines  of 
cross-examination. 


30 


40 


60 


The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States:- 1  do 
not  understand,  nevertheless,  that  this  witness  says  he  has 
made  an  estimate  of  the  cost  of  repairing  that  vessel  in  1877. 
It  is  a  matter  of  subtraction  made  by  Mr.  Warren  in  his  own 
mind. 

Mr.  Dickinson :— He  has  already  so  testified.  We  submit 
th9t  we  have  the  right  to     pursue    the     cross-examinfttloQ 


835 


30 


(H.  J.  Cook— Grow.) 

briefly,  on  our  own  resiKtnMibility,  nnd  w<>  think  wp  arc  doing 
80  in  good  faith. 

The  rominiBsioner  on  the  part  of  tlie  I'uited  8t«te8: — I 
would  like  to  have  you  ask  him,  if  you  please,  whether  he 
made  the  estimate  or  not. 

Mr.  Warren  (to  witneMs): — Q.— Mr.  Cook,  did  yon  estimate 
lO  the  cost  of  repairing  the  "Thornton"  in  the  year  1877  at  $3,- 
500?    .  A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Now.  I  will  renew  the  question  which  I  asked  you  be- 
fore. In  making  the  estimate  of  the  cost  of  reimiring  ihe 
"Thornton"  in  1877,  you  must  have  placed  a  valuation  upon 
the  senices  that  Captain  Warren  contributed,  is  that  so? 
A.— No.  I  did  not. 

Q. — Yon  did  not  include  those  services?     A. — I  did     not 
put  in  his  services  at  all. 
Q. — You  put  in  the  sen-ices  of    everyone    else?    A. — As 
^^  making  up  the  whole  estimation? 
Q.— Yes.    A.— Yes. 

Q. — You  put  in  the  services  of  every  one  in  this  93,500  ex- 
cepting those  of  Captain  Wnrren?  A. — I  didn't  put  in  Cap- 
tain Warren's  at  all. 

Q. — How  did  yon  know  how  much  Captain  Warren  paid 
the  other  men?    A. — I  know  by  the  rule  of  wages. 
Q. — Were  you  paid  by  the  nile  of  wages?    A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q. — How  much  were  you  paid  a  day?    A. — $5. 
Q. — What  is  this  little  contract  that  you  spoke  of  having? 
i. — Well,  that  I  can't  tell  you.    I  have  no  record  of  it;  1 
don't  know  what  the  contract  was. 
Q.— Was  it  in  writing?    A.— 1  think  not. 
Q.— You  have  not  got  it,  if  it  was?    A.— No,  I  don't  think 
there  was  any  writing  about  it;  we  wasn't  so  paricular  about 
it  in  them  days. 

Q. — You  do  not  know  whot  condition  the  "Thornton"  was 
iu  in  1880  actually,  do  you,  Mr.  Cook,  when  she  went  into 
Behring  Sea?    A. — I  don't  think  she  was  any  worse;  I  was 
40  aboard  of  her. 

Q. — Aboard  of  her  where?  A. — I  boarded  her  along  side 
of  the  wharf,  and  I  hauled  her  out  one  time. 

Q. — What  yeor  were  you  aboard  of  her  that  you  are 
speaking  of?      A. — 1  think  it  must  have  been  in  1884. 

Q.— I  a'l  talking  about  the  year  1880.  A.— I  don't  think 
I  was  aboard  iif  her. 

().— Were  you  nlioard  of  her  at  all  after  1884?  A.— I 
don't  think  It. 

Q  — When  yon  place  a  valuation  npon  a  boat,  you  are  ni>t 
talking  about  murket  vnlut,  are  you,  you  are  talking  nb<')ui 
the  cost?    A.— I  am  not  ti'.ll,ing  about  the  market  vi'uc. 

Q.— You  are  talking  alu.ui  the  cost  of  building  a  now  nhip 
of  her  kind?    A. — Y«  s. 

Q. — And  did  you  mean  to  place  her  value  in  1881  at  95000? 
A.— She  would  be  worth  95,500  at  that  time. 
Q.— In  1881?      A.— Yes. 

Q.— Where  did  she  get  that  extra  9WM)  from?  .\.— Put  In 
stern-posts. 

Q.— That  was  after  you  did  the  work  in  1881?  A.— Yes. 
Q.— You  did  9600  more  work  on  her  in  1881?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — I>o  I  understand  that  9«>.S**0  added  to  whatever  her 
material  cost  in  1881  is  your  idea  of  the  value  of  the  "Thorn- 
ton?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — That  mctus  it  would  take  that  much  more  money  to 
build  a  new  Im.it  of  Iter  sixe?  .\. — To  build  a  boat  1  id  fit 
ber  out  as  she  was. 


50 


60 


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;.  - 

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10 


836 

(H.  J.  CtMik— CrimH— KtMllml.     Wullfi-  Wulkor— Direct.) 

Q. — And  vou  are  not  placing  n  valuation  upon  the  "Thorn- 
ton" at  all  lmH(*d  u|>on  what  she  would  bring  at  a  Dale?  A. 
— 1  am  baaing  it  at  what  the  "Thornton"  cost. 

Q. — Were  you  {Niid  for  all  your  Bervicen  that  j'ou  ever  per- 
formed for  Captain  Warr««n?      A. — YeH,  sir. 

Q. — I>o<>fl  he  owe  you  anything?      A. — He  doen  not. 

Q. — What  are  you  doing  now,  Mr.  Cook?  A. — I  work  for 
Mr.  Turitel  Bonietinies. 

Re-direct  examination  by  Sir  C.  H.  Tapper: 

Q. — You  said  yon  had  atteiideJ  this  court?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q'. — You  attended  under  subpoena,  did  you  not?  A. — I 
did. 

Q.— With  reference  to  this  bill  of  (lt,240  for  labor,  does  that 
include  your  slip  charges  as  well?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — The  slip  clinrses  were  in  addition?  A. — The  slip 
charges  were  in  addition. 
20  Q. — Then  this  book  that  yon  were  asked  about,  containing 
the  entrj'  of  the  money  jmid  to  j'ou  on  this  account,  is  that 
the  book  that  you  gave  to  Mr.  Bodwell  and  myself?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  that  we  have?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  have  no  objection  to  that  being  produced?  A. — 
Not  at  all,  sir. 

Q. — Now,  yon  were  asked  with  reference  to  whi'ther  you 
had  discussed  thTs  matter  with  Captain  Wairen.      .\s  a  mat- 
ter of  fact  yon  'have  discussed  it  with  Mr.  Bo«lwell  and  my- 
3°  self,  have  you  not?      A.— That  is  all. 

Q'. — On  several  occasions?  A. — Mr.  Ilodwell,  yon  anti  Mr. 
Peters. 

Q. — And  Captain  Warren  did  not  happen  to  be  there?  A. 
— No,  sir,  I  have  never  sw»n  Captain  Warren  to  speak  to  him 
at  all. 


"I*! 


liil;' 


40 

Walter  Walker  was  called  as  a  witness  on  the  part  of 
(Jreat  Britain. 

It  was  announced  by  the  <'ommis8ioners  that  the  oath  ad- 
ministered to  a  witness  covers  his  testimony  with  n»fen>nce 
to  any  and  all  claims  iM'nding  before  the  CommiHsioners. 

Sir  C.  H.  Tupper: — We  pro|K)se  to  transfer  all  the  prelimi- 
nary evidence  of  this  witness  in  the  "Carolena"  case  to  this 
JO  case,  as  to  ship's  prices,  and  so  on. 

Direct  examination  by  Bir  C.  H.  Tupper: 

y.— You  knew  this  ship  the  "Thornton?"      A.— Yes. 

Q. — You  had  to  do  with  her  in  connei-tion  with  some  re- 
pairs, had  you  not?      A. — No,  I  didn't. 

<i. — Y(»u  renu'iiilMT  where  she  was  tN>ing  overhauled?  A. 
— Oh,  yes. 

(j. — Was  this  ship  yard  wher«>  she  was  known  as  Turiiel's 
ship  yard?      A. — It  is  now  known  as  Tiir|K>rs. 

Q. — And  how  near  was  that  to  your  own  ship  yard?  A. — 
Oh,  within,  I  sup|>ose,  about  n(N)  yards. 

Ci. — The  yani  (tpposite  to  yonm?  A. — It  is  farther  down 
the  bay. 

Q. — In  the  vicinity  of  yours?      A. — Yes. 

(i. — Do  you  renienibi-r  what  was  lH>ing  done  to  the  "Thorn- 
ton?" .\. — Yes.  I  was  in  then'  while  Cook  was  doing  those 
re|Hiirs.  and  he  put  in  extra  frames,  took  off  all  the  planking. 


6u 


837 


lo 


(WuHor  WhIImm-— Dii-vct— (Vum.) 

Q.— Do  you  reiiieiiib«>r  the  time  when  she  was  titted  up  with 
auxiliarjr  Rteaiii  power?      A.— Ye». 

Q.— That  wn8  the  game  place?      A.— Hauic  place, 

Q- — You  knew  the  nature  of  the  worlt  which  was  being 
done?      A. — Yea. 

Q.— You  heard  Mr.  (Joolt  — — ?  A.— I  heard  Mr.  Cook  de- 
■cribe  it. 

Q.— You  are  familiar  with  the  work  on  that  occaaion?  A. 
— Yes.  It  would  be  altogether  necessary,  what  he  said. 

Q. — What  sort  of  a  schooner  was  she  when  this  worlc  was 
done,  was  she  well  built?      A.— In  1881? 

Q.— Yes.      A. — Yes.  she  was  in  good  order  then. 

Q. — You  saw  her  with  the  machinery  in  complete?  A. — 
Yes.  I  have  been  aboard  of  her  often;  she  carried  one  or  two 
small  loads  of  coal  for  me. 

Q.— You  knew  her  in  1886?      A.— I  knew  her  in  1886. 

Q. — What  did  she  carry,  what  weigbt?     A. — Well,  I  have 
2o  had  lA.  tons  on  her? 

Q. — Tx)ng  tons?      A. — iMOg  tons. 

Q. — You  have  had  that  in  her?      A. — Yes. 

Q.— You  knew  her  in  1886?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — Can  you  not  put  a  value  upon  that  vessel  in  1886  as 
you  knew  her?  A. — Well,  I  considered  she  was  worth  ma- 
chinery and  all  about  $6,000. 

Q. — You  knew  who  built  the  machinery  for  her?  A. — 
Yes,  I  knew  the  man.      Thomas  Oowen. 

Q.— I  believe  he  is  dead,  is  he  not?    A.— The  last  I  heard 
30  of  him  he  was  in  Reattle. 

Q._Whnt  condition  wn»  the  "Thornton"  in  in  1886?  A.— 
Bhe  was  in  good  condition. 


;  J. 


Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Dickinson: 


Mr.  Dickin.4(>n: — My  learned  friend,  Hir  Ciiarles,  having 
transferred  the  direct-exiimination  of  this  witness  from  tlie 
"Carolena"  case  to  that  of  the  "Thornton,"  so  far  as  it  is 
applicable.  I  now  tninNfer  the  ci-oMM-exiiniination  of  this  wit- 
'^^  nesB  in  the  "(,'nn»lena"  case  to  tliat  of  (lie  "Tliornton,"  with 
the  exception  of  tliat  part  of  the  croHs-exaniination  relative 
to  the  details  of  the  "(^arolena." 

Q. — What  did  you  have  to  do  with  tlie  "Thornton"  yourself? 
A. — Nothing,  except  going  aboard  of  lier. 

Q. — What  did  you  go  aboard  of  lier  for?    A. — t)li,  I  went 
aboard  of  every  schooner  in  the  liarbor  tliat  was  being  re- 
paired. 
50      Q.— What  for?    A. — To  see  what  work  was  going  on. 

Q, — Did  you  have  any  ofticial  duties?    A. — Not  then. 

Q. — How  long  is  it  since  you  have  had  ofllcial  duties  to  {U'r- 
form?    A.— April,  1884. 

Q. — And  did  you  go  alxmrd  the  "Thornton"  in  purHuance 
of  your  official  duties  at  that  time?     A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — When  you  did  go  aboard  yon  had  nothing  more  than  a 

casual  un«)fflcial  interest  in  going  aboard?    A. — Well,  from 

1884  to  1886  I  was  supposed  to  see  that  schooners  Jind  their 

names  written  on  the  bow  and  stern,  and  the  draught  of 

°°  water,  and  I  always  intended  to  look  out  for  that. 

Q. — I  understood  you  a  moment  ago  to  say  thnt  you  did  not 
go  on  the  "Thornton"  after  1884?  A.— I  "have  been  aboard 
of  her,  but  not  ofllcinlly. 

Q. — And  you  do  not  go  aboard  of  her  officially  ever,  did 
you  then?    A.— No,  sir. 

Q.— Then,  when  you  did  go  aboard  of  her,  you  went  out  of, 
casual  curiosity,  did  you  not?    A.— Well,  yes. 


I  I ; 


I 


838 


I  1 


(Walter  Walker— Crow.) 

Q. — Did  yoa  have  any  friends  aboard  of  lier?  A. — Being 
acquainted  with  the  buBiness,  I  am  always  taking  an  inter- 
est. 

Q.— That  is  the  shipbuilding  business?    A.— Yes. 

Q. — You  took  a  caiiual  interest  as  a  shipbuilder  in  her?  A. 
—Yes. 

Q. — Did  you  examine  her?    A. — Yes. 
10      Q- — Did  you  go  into  her  hold  and  look  at  her  timbers,  and 
examine  her  as  you  would  on  an  oflteial  inspection?    A. — No; 
I  saw  her  on  the  ways  when  she  was  having  that  work  done. 

Q. — Did  you  go  into  her  hold?  A. — I  didn't  go  aboard  of 
her  in  the  hold  in  an  official  capacity. 

Q. — Did  you  examine  her  rigging?    A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Any  of  her  gear?    k. — No,  sir. 

Q.— Kxnmiue  her  hull"  A.— Well,  I  looked  it  over,  1  didn't 
examine  it. 

Q. — For  what  purpose    A. — As  I  had  with  any  schooner 
20  in  the  harbor. 

Q. — When  was  you  last  aboard  of  her?  A. — Well,  I 
couldn't  say  the  exact  date. 

Q. — Can  you  tell  within  ten  years?  A. — Oh,  yes,  I  believe 
■he  had  coal  for  me  in  1884,  and  I  believe  I  was  aboard  of 
her  in  1886  when  she  went  out — before  she  went  out  in  1886. 

Q. — You  did  not  go  up  the  shore  in  her,  did  you?  A. — No, 
sir. 

Q.— What  did  you  go  aboard  of  her  in  1886  for?    A.— T  am 
,Q  not  positive. 
^         Q.— Did  you  go  aboard  of  her  in  1884?    A.— Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Positive,  are  you?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — For  what  purpose?  A. — I  had  coal  in  her,  to  the  best 
of  my  knowledge.    She  carried  coal  for  me  in  1884. 

Q. — That  is  when  you  carried  coal  that  you  have  spoken  of? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Where  were  j-ou  carrying  coal  to?  A. — From  Na- 
naimo  to  Victoria. 

Q. — Was  it  your  cargo?    A. — My  cargo. 
40       Q. — Did  you  go  down  in  her  or  go  up  in  her?    A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — And  yon  went  aboard  to  Hee  about  your  coal?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.— What  was  your  business,  then?  A.— 1  was  beginning 
to  handle  coal,  and  sometimes  had  work  on  the  outside. 

Q- — You  had  a  coal  yard,  did  you?  A. — Yes,  I  had  a  coal 
.yard. 

Q.— And  have  had  it  how  long?    A.— Since  1883. 

Q. — So  that  your  businens  was  principally  dealing  in  coal 
tln*n?    A.— Partly. 
5°      y.— Was  it  principally?    A.— In  the  summer  time  I  went 
out  ard  built  some  boats,  and  did  other  work. 

Q.— ulut  your  principal  business  was  dealing  in  coal?  A. 
—In  1885  it  was. 

Q.— Did  you  charter  the  vessel  for  coal?  A.— Yes,  paid 
so  much  a  ton  freight. 

Q.— You  made  a  contract  for  it?  A.— Made  a  contract 
91.25  a  ton  freight. 

Q.— You  are  surveyor  in  the  port  now,  are  you  not?    A.— 
go   Yes,  sir. 

Q-— And  you  have  been  interested  in  shipbuilding?  A.— 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Now,  will  you  tell  us  some  of  the  shipbuilders  here 
from  1884  fo  1888,  when  you  were  giving  this  matter  atten- 
tion? A. — There  was  one,  Clark,  that  was  here  the  other 
day. 

Q.— He  is  still  here?  A.— He  is  still  here.  He  was  in 
the  witness  box.      He  built  the  "Rainbow." 


10 


20 


30 


40 


50 


9i9 
(Walter  Walker— Grom.      H.  J.  Cook— Direct.) 

Q.— Never  mind  what  he  did.  I  am  asking  for  the  names. 
Now,  tell  me  the  name  of  any  other  ahipbuilder  that  was  here 
in  those  days.     A. — Mr.  Cook. 

Q.— This  man  that  has  been  on  the  stand  this  morning? 
A.— Yes. 

Q. — Someone  else?      A.— Macaulay  Smith. 

Q.— Where  is  he?  A.— He  is  at  the  Marine  Railway  at 
Eaqaimalt  at  present.  And  Alexander  Watson,  senior, 
father  of  the  one  that  was  here. 

Q.— Where  is  Alexander  Watson,  senior?  "A.— He  is  in  the 
city  now. 

Q. — The  next  one?  A.— Alexander  Stacker,  who  built  the 
"Sayward."      He  is  dead  now. 

Q. — He  had  a  partner,  did  he  not?  A- — There  was  a  part- 
ner. 

Q. — What  was  his  name?     A. — I  don't  recollect. 

Q. — Is  he  still  here?  A. — I  don't  recollect  who  was  with 
him. 

Q. — Do  you  know  whether  the  man  that  was  with  him  is 
here  in  Victoria?     A. — 1  don't  know. 

Q. — GWe  us  the  next  one.      A. — John  Robinson. 

Q.— Still  here?  A.— Still  here.  Mr.  Turpcl,  I  think,  had 
started  then. 

Q. — Next?  A. — Colwin,  who  had  what  they  called  the 
Clyde  ship  yard.      He  is  not  here  now. 

Q. — Where  is  he?  A. — He  is  in  Scotland;  in  the  Orkney 
Islands,  I  believe.     His  brother  is  here. 

Q.— Was  his  brother  here  in  1886?  A.— He  wan;  he  work- 
ed in  our  yard. 

Q. — The  next  man?  A. — There  was  Alex  Watson,  jr.,  built 
some  boats  and  had  some  contracts. 

Q.— Still  here?      A.— Still  here. 

Q. — Next  man?      A. — Joseph  Clark. 

Q.— Still  here?  A.— Yes,  he  is  foreman  for  the  C.  P.  N. 
Company. 

Q. — Next  man?      A. — I  don't  remember  any  more. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  Harding,  who  was  engaged  in  ship- 
building here  from  1884  to  1886?      A.— No. 

Q. — A  man  by  the  name  of  Richards?  A. — I  didn't  know 
him. 

Q. — Do  yon  think  yon  have  named  all  those  within  your 
memory  now?  A. — All  those  that  built  boats  to  the  best  of 
my  recollection,  that  had  any  boats  to  build.  I  think,  with 
a  little  time  I  can  furnish  you  with  a  full  list. 

Q. — You  put  your  valuation  upon  what  you  know  of  the 
cost  of  vessels?  A. — Well,  not  altogeher.  I  allow  a  cer- 
tain amount  for  depreciation. 

Q. — But  you  estimate  the  cost,  and  then  allow  for  deprecia- 
tion; that  is  the  way  you  arrive  at  the  value?  A. — That  is 
the  way  I  arrive  at  the  value. 


iff 


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1  1 

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I  i 


qq      Hubert  J.  Cook,  recalled  on  the  part  of  Great  Britain. 

Direct  examination  by  Sir  C.  H.  Tupper: 

Q. — Is  this  the  book  you  referred  to  on  your  examination 
a  little  while  ago,  as  to  the  entry  qf  the  amount  charged  Mr. 
Warren  and  received?  A. — (Examfning' book.)  That  is  it, 
sir. 

Q. — How  much  is  it,  what  do  you  find?  A.— 11,242,  and 
then  there  Is  an  entry  here  below  of  |48.76. 


u 

il 


A I 


840 


,H  .  1 

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it 


(H.  J.  C.'iMik— Orlando  Warner— Direct— CroK*.) 

Entry  in  book  is  as  follows:  "1878,  due  to  H.  J.  Cook,  J.  D. 
Warren,  to  May  17,  for  work  on  "Thornton,  total  amount 
11,242.40.  Canb  on  aroount  1860.  Ilalance  due  |382.40. 
To  June  27,  0  a-4ths  days',  |48.75."  Witness  says  he  does 
not  know  what  the  entry  is  for  as  to  the  0  and  3-4tliH  days. 

By  Sir  C.  H.  Tupper:— Q. — Do  yon  know  what  sealing  boats 
cost  in  1880?      A.— -fO  per  fmrt.      Twenty-finrt  b<mt  would  be 
»0  fl20. 

Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Warren: 

Q. — It  would  cost  less  to  buy  sealing  boats  if  you  bought  a 
number  of  them  at  the  same  time,  would  it?     A. — No. 

Q. — It  would  not  cost  nny  less,  no  matter  how  many  you 
built?  A. — I  have  built  them  myself,  and  it  never  made 
any  aifference. 

Q. — How  old  are  you,  Mr.  Cook?      A. — I  am  60. 

30 


30 


40 


Orlando  Warner  was  re-called  ns  a  witness  on  the  part  of 
Great  Britain. 

Rir  C.  H.  Tupper:— With  the  ComniiBsioner's  permission, 
the  same  course  will  be  taken  in  the  case  of  Mr.  Warner.  He 
has  been  sworn  and  examined  at  some  length  as  to  his  quuli- 
floations  for  giving  opinions  in  regard  to  value,  and  I  shall 
therefore  do  nothing  more  than  to  ask  that  the  evidence 
taken  in  the  "Carolena"  case  on  that  point  be  transferred- 
the  whole  except  that  obviously  irrelevant. 

Direct  examination  by  Sir  C.  H.  Tupper: 

Q. — You  knew  the  ship  "Thornton,"  Mr.  Warner?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  is  your  opinion  of  her  value  in  1886,  what  do 
you  think  she  would  fairly  and  honestiv  be  worth  at  that 
time?  A.— Well,  I  would  consider  the  "Thornton"  in  1886 
to  be  a  fair  figure  at  anywhere  from  |6,04»0  to  96,mM);  I  think 
she  would  be  worth  :hat  as  a  steam  schooner. 

Q. — Would  you  tell  me  what  sealiiig  boats  were  worth  in 
1886?  A. — I  always  heard  thei  1  quoted  at  |6  a  foot,  and 
the  idea  was  that  sealing  boats  "'ere  flOO  and  fl20  apiece. 
I  never  dealt  in  them  myself,  but  1  have  heard  that  remark 
at  different  times. 

Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Lansing: 

Q. — Mr.  W^omer,  how  do  you  reach  vhe  valuation  of  |5000 

to  16,000  in  your  own  mind?    A.— From  the  fact  that  take 

the  size  of  the  schooner  and  the  amount  of  repairs  on  her, 

•    I  always  considered  her  a  seaworthy  little  vessel,  and  would 

be  worth  about  that  money. 

Q- — You  mean  then  the  cost  of  the  repairs  of  the  vessel, 

gQ  and  what  the  vessel  was  worth  before  she  was  repaired?    A. 

— I  would  consider  that  would  make  a  representative  amount. 

Mr.  Dickinson :— Of  course  the  same  method  is  pursued 
with  reference  to  this  last  witness,  relative  to  the  cross-ex- 
amination, as  before,  namely,  the  transfer  of  the  cross-ex- 
amination from  the  "Carolena"  to  the  "Thornton." 

The  Commissioner  on  tlie  pjirt  of  Her  Majesty:— I  think  it 
fair  to  assume  that  the  cross-examination  Is  put  in  the  case; 


SO 


mi'H 


841 


(William  Turpel— Dinft.      John  DnlliiR— Direct.) 

it  i«  not  necemury  to  mention  ubout  the  crom-ezaminntion 
every  time.  I  suppose  the  same  remark  would  apply  to  th« 
re-examination. 

By  agreement  of  counsel  it  is  to  be  considered  that  when- 
ever the  direct  examination  is  transferred,  the  cross-examin- 
ation and  re-cxaqiination  are  liltewiBe  transferred. 


10 


40 


SO 


William  Turpel  was  called  as  a  witness  on  the  part  'of 
Great  Britain,  but  had  previously  been  sworn. 

Hir  C.  H.  Tupper: — I  propose  the  snme  course  with  regard 
to  this  witness;  that  all  evidence  except  such  as  is  obviously 
inapplicable,  b*>  transferred  to  the  case  of  the  "Thornton." 

20      Direct  examination  by  Sir  C.  H.  Tupper: 

Q. — I  will  ask  you,  Mr.  Turpel,  whether  you  knew  the 
schooner  "Thornton"  in  188(1?    A.— No,  I  didn't  know  her. 

Q. — Did  you  know  anything  about  sealing  boats  in  1886? 
A. — ^Yes,  I  had  contractetl  for  them,  and  I  had  contracted 
and  built  them. 

Q. — How  much  did  they  cost?    A. — fl20  apiece. 

Sir  C.  H.  Tupper: — Then  Bfr.  Turpel's  evidence    in     the 
^o  "Thornton,"  so  far  as  I  am  concerned,  will  consist  of  that 
transfer  from  the  "Carolena"  case,  of  general  evidence,  and 
the  evidence  he  has  given. 

Q. — In  regard  to  sealing  boats,  is  it  necessary  to  repair 
them  each  season  as  they  are  bnraght  in?  A.-^Yes,  as  a 
general  rule. 

Q. — ^They  depreciate  very  rapidly  in  value,  do  they  not? 
A. — Well,  by  spending  a  few  dollars  on  them  yearly  they 
will  hold  on  pretty  well. 

Q. — What  is  the  usual  life  of  a  sealing  boat?  A.— Five  or 
six  years,  I  suppose,  I  know  scmie  of  them  eight  years  old. 

Q.— Is  not  the  usual  life  of  a  sealing  boot  much  shorter? 
A. — If  they  are  well  taken  care  of  they  are  good  for  live  or 
six  years.  I  have  got  them  now  for  four  years,  and  they  are 
new  seemingly  as  when  I  got  them  built. 

Q.— Do  they  not  get  heavier?  A.— They  get  a  little  water 
logged. 

Q. — Do  they  not  get  double  their  weight  in  three  years? 
A. — If  they  are  kept  well  painted  it  does  not  matter  so  much. 

Q. — And  weight  has  a  great  deal  to  do  with  the  value  of  a 
sealing  boat,  hasn't  it?  A.— It  has  something,  but  I  can't 
answer  what  it  has  to  do  exactly;  from  what  I  know  if  they 
are  kept  well  painted  they  do  not  get  waterlogged. 

Q. — ^Yon  are  the  owner  of  the  "Sadie  Turpel"  sealing 
schooner?    A. — One  of  the  owners. 

Q.— And  she  is  fitted  with  boats?    A.— Yes. 


The  witness  was  not  further  examined. 


60 


John  Dallas  was  called  as  a  witness  on  the  part  of  Great 
Britain,  and  was  duly  sworn. 

Direct  examination  by  Sir  C.  H.  Tupper: 

Q. — You  were  on  the  schooner  "Thornton"  as  cook  in  1886, 
were  you  not?    A. — Yes,  sir. 


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30 


40 


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60 


(John  DnlliiR— nirert.) 

Q.— That  wai  during  the  const  trip?    A.— Yea,  air. 

(4. — And  afterwards  you  were  boat  puller?  A. — Yea.  air, 
on  the  Ilehring  Sea  trip. 

Q.— Who  waa  your  captain?  A.— Captain  Hana  Ghriatian- 
aen. 

Q.— He  la  dead?    A. — He  died  next  trip. 

Q.— Who  waa  mate?  A.— Wilaon,  otherwise  railed  Harry 
Norman. 

Q. — Do  you  know  where  he  is?    A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — How  many  of  a  crew  had  the  "Thornton"?  A.— Pour- 
teen  all  told. 

Q. — The  captain  is  dead  and  you  do  not  know  where  the 
mate  Is?    A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Are  any  of  the  others  about  here?    A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — You  are  the  only  one?    A. — The  only  one,  sir. 

Q. — How  many  boats,  had  yon?    A. — Four,  sir. 

Q. — Were  they  new  boats  or  old?    A. — New  boata. 

Q. — You  had  no  stem  boat?    A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Just  four  sealing  boats?    A. — Four  sealing  boats. 

Q. — About  how  long  were  they,  do  you  remember?  A. — I 
think  20  feet. 

Q. — What  lay  wep;  you  on?    A.— Four  bits  a  skin,  sir. 

Q.— That  is  50  cents?    A.— Yes. 

Q.— What  had  the  hunters  for  their  lay?  A.— $1.50  per 
skin. 

Q.— You  hunted  first  on  the  coast  in  1886  on  the  "Thorn- 
ton"?   A. — I  was  on  the  coast  first. 

Q. — Then  you  put  into  Clayquot  before  you  started  direct 
for  the  Behring  Sea?    A. — ^Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  got  your  provisions  for  the  Behring  Sea  voyage 
at  Clayoquot  from  Captain  Warren?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Warren: — Do  not  lead  this  witnosa  so  much,  Sir 
Charles. 

Sir  C.  H.  Tupper:— If  it  is  to  be  the  understanding  that 
there  is  to  be  no  leading,  then  I  shall  be  very  glad  for  my 
part;  it  was  allowed  by  both  sides  in  order  to  save  time. 

Mr.  Dickinson :— My  learned  friend  made  merely  a  sugges- 
tion with  regard  to  this  particular  witness. 

Sir  C.  H.  Tupper: — I  would  prefer  the  rule  to  be  enforced 
myself,  that  there  should  be  no  leading. 

Mr.  Dickinson : — It  la  a  mere  suggestion  from  counsel. 
Examination  by  Sir  C.  H.  Tupper  continued. 

Q. — Out  of  what  ship  did  Captain  Warren  give  yon  the 
provisions?    A. — The  "Dolphin." 

Q. — Who  was  in  command  of  the  "Dolphin"?  A. — Cup 
tain  Warren. 

Q. — What  did  you  get  out  of  the  "Dolphin"?  Do  you  re- 
member what  kind  of  provisions?  A. — Tliere  were  three  or 
four  barrels  of  beef,  tea,  coffee  and  flour. 

Q, — Biscuits?    A. — We  had  biscuits  on  the  schooner. 

Q. — What  do  you  mean  by  biscuits,  do  you  mean  pilot 
bread?    A. — Yes,  pilot  bread. 

Q. — Did  you  eat  seal  meat  and  fish?    A. — Yes. 

Q.— On  that  trip?    A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  did  the  rest  of  the  crew  eat  that?   A. — ^Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  when  vou  were  seized  in  the 
"Thornton"?    A.— Yes. 

Q. — What  happened  to  the  provisions  after  that?  A. — We 
were  very  short  of  provisions. 

Q. — What  happened  to  those  that  you  had?  A. — They  had 
flour,  no  sngar,  tea,  coffee,  or  anything. 


lO 


20 


30 


843 

(John  l>nllu«— Dim-t— CroM.) 

Q. — What  Hhip  did  ymi  gu  on  from  the  "Thornton"?  A. — 
On  the  steamer  to  Hun  PrnnciMo. 

(J. — What  food  hud  you  on  the  stcamerr  A.— The  food 
they  took  off  the  lehooner. 

Q. — Off  what  schooner?    A. — The  "Thornton." 

Q. — Was  that  the  case  with  the  otiier  men,  or  how  did  they 
get  their  food  on  board  the  steamer?  A. — Every  man  got 
his  provisions  off  the  schooner. 

Q. — What  did  the  other  men  tulcen  to  Ran  Franrisco  get 
their  food  on  board  the  steamer?    A. — From  the  steamer. 

Q. — You  do  not  understand  me.  A. — Every  man  on  that 
steamer  went  to  Hun  Francisco  tuldng  the  provisions  off  his 
own  schooner?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  that  was  the  ease  with  the  other  men  as  well  as  the 
men  from  the  "Thornton?"     A. — Yes,  sir,  every  man. 

Q. — Do  you  n'meniber  tlie  name  of  the  steamer  you  went 
on?     A.— The  "St.  Paul." 

Q. — And  she  toolc  you  to  where?     A. — San  Francisco. 

Q. — What  were  you  short  of  on  the  voyage?  A. — I  waa 
short  of  butter,  and  sugar,  and  tea,  and  milk,  and  dried  ap- 
ples, and  several  things. 

Q. — Had  you  been  out  on  any  trips  but  this?  A.— No, 
that  was  the  first  trip  1  went  in  the  "Thornton." 

Q. — Was  it  UBUul  to  eat  seal  meat?  A. — On  the  North 
Coast  it  was  for  grub,  they  were  short  of  grub. 

Q. — But  you  had  not  been  sealing  in  any  other  year  but  in 
1886?      A.— No,  sir. 

Q. — And  that  was  your  first  year?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  ever  go  afterwards?      A. — No,  sir. 

Cross-examination  by  &Ir.  Warren: 

Q. — Did  you  help  to  take  the  provisions  that  went  on  board 
the  "St.  Paul"  from  off  the  "Thorntonf      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q.— How  did  you  take  them  to  the  "St.  Paul?"  A.— In 
boats. 

Q. — In  whose  boats?  A. — In  the  "Thornton's"  sealing 
40  boats. 

Q. — Did  any  men  go  from  her  in  the  boat  when  the  pro- 
visions went  there  except  the  men  who  went  to  row?  A. — 
Five  men  in  a  boat  the  first  trip. 

Q. — Any  provisions  in  that  Inrnt?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Then  you  must  have  had  but  few  provisions  on  her? 
A. — Very  little  provisions;  only  a  few  sacks  of  flour  and 
beans,  that's  all. 

Q. — Do  you  mean  that  nil  the  provisions  that  went  off  the 
"Thornton"  were  a  few  sacks  of  flour  and  some  beans?  A. — 
There  might  be  four  or  five  sacks  of  flour  and  a  few  sacks  of 
beans,  that's  all. 

Q.— Anything  else?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — That  includes  what  you  took  and  what  all  the  others 
took?      A. — Yes,  sir;  that  is  all. 

Q. — And  the  men  who  belonged  to  the  "Thornton"  took 
these  things  themselves?  A. — ^Yes,  he  got  orders  to  take 
them,  take  off  t)H>  grub,  and  bring  it  on  the  steamer  to  feed 
them  on  the  pnssage. 

Q.— Your  captain  told  you  that?  A.— No,  sir,  the  cap- 
tain of  the  cutter  said  that. 

Q.— Did  you  hear  the  captain  of  the  cutter  give  that  order? 
A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  hay  that  you  went  into  the  harbour  of  Oun- 
alaska?  A.— No,  Chucreal;  it  is  near  Ounalaska;  it  is  just 
a  little  small  place  called  Chucreal,  there  is  a  wharf  there,  it 
is  near  Ounalaska. 


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60 


(il(»llll    DillhlM — Cl-OHM.) 

Q. — You  Mild  ihvre  were  fourtuc'ii  luvu  uu  board  the  "Thorn- 
ton," how  iiiuny  of  them;  uieu  wfrv  ludiuiin?  A. — Two  Hi- 
wimh,  vleveu  white  men  aud  a  Chinaman. 

Q.— Tlic  ChinnuiHU  was  tlie  cook?      A.— Yea,  air. 

Q.— You  were  not  coolt  on  that  trip?  A.— No,  air,  I  waa 
coolc  on  the  weat  coiiat. 

Q.— The  Chinamuu  went  up  from  Clayoqnot  with  you?     A.— 
Yea,  air. 

(i.— Who  waa  the  hunter  you  pulled  for?  A.— I  could  not 
tell  you  hia  name,     lie  lielonKa  to  Ht.  John,  N.D. 

Q.—  Were  the  men  provided  with  Runa?  A.— Yea,  air,  I 
think  the  guna  Ix'longed  to  the  achooner. 

Q-— What  g'ina  did  they  have.  8hot  gnna  or  rlHea?  A.— 
A. — 8liot  gnna  and  riflea. 

Q.— Did  each  hunter  have  a  aliot  gun?  A— A  ahot  gun 
and  rifle,  each  one. 

Q.— Were  there  any  extra  ahot  guns?  A.- Well,  there 
waa  an  old  one.  but  all  the  reHt  were  new. 

Q. — Do  you  know  that  they  were  all  new?  A.— I  aaw 
them,  I  had  them  right  in  my  hand. 

Q. — You  do  not  know  'vhen  they  were  bought?  A.— They 
looked  new. 

Q.— When  waa  it  that  the  "Thornton"  carried  away  her 
mnat  head?      A. — 4fMi  milea  from  Vietoiia. 

Q.— Off  the  weat  conat?      A.— Yea,  air. 

Q. — She  had  earried  awny  her  masthead?    A.— Yea,  air. 

Q. — And  her  fore  rigigng?      A. — No. 

Q. — You  did  not  have  her  rigging  on  when  ahe  entered  lleh- 
ring  Sea?      A. — No. 

Q.— She  waa  in  bad  ahape  when  ahe  went  into  the  Sea?  A- 
1  fixed  her  maat  all  right  on  the  paaaage. 

Q.— What  did  you  do  to  it?      A.— 1  fixed  it. 

Q. — Did  the  rigging  come  down?      A. — Yea. 

Q.— How,  the  eail  fell  down  on  the  deck?     A.— Yea. 

Q.— And  that  waa  400  milea  from  Victoria?      A.— Yea. 

O. — Did  you  repair  that?  A. — Yea,  my  work  waa  worth  a 
tL    laand  dollara;  I  naked  my  life  to  go  up  on  the  arhooner. 

<i. — Why  waa  ahe  towed  into  Bi^hring  Sea?  A. — The 
ateamer  "Dolphin"'  waa  faater. 

Q. — And  do  you  aay  that  the  achooner  "Thornton"  waa 
in  good  order  when  ahe  went  into  the  Sea?      A. — Yea,  air. 

Q. — Her  canvna  waa  not  new,  waa  it?      A. — It  waa  new. 

Q. — Did  you  have  an  extra  auit  of  aaila  on  board  that  waa 
new?      A. — No,  air. 

Q. — She  juat  had  one  set  of  aaila?  A. — Yea,  we  carried 
bita  of  cauvaa  to  repair  anything  that  waa  carried  away. 

Q. — There  waa  only  one  ault  of  canvaa  on  board,  but  you 
carried  little  piecea  to  do  any  repairing  that  waa  neceaaary? 
A. — Yea,  air. 

Q. — These  piecea  were  new?      A. — Yea,  air. 

Q. — Did  you  know  if  they  were  new,  or  looked  new?  A. — 
They  looked  new. 

q". — Were  they  new  that  year?  A.— No,  I  think  they  madi» 
n  trip  on  the  weat  conat  before  that. 

Q. — You  were  cook  on  that  voyage  before  that?  A. — Yea, 
air. 

Q. — Did  you  aee  the  aaila  before  thia  trip?  A. — No,  air.  I 
did  not. 

Q. — You  never  did?    A. — No.  air. 

Q. — Do  yon  remember  how  long  you  were  at  Ounalaaka 
before  you  went  down  on  the  "St.  Paul"?  A. — I  cannot  tell 
you,  I  never  marked  how  long,  I  think  it  took  eleven  daya  to 
come  from  Alaska  to  Snn  Franriaco. 

•  Q. — Did  you  atay  on  board  y^ur  boats  when  you  were  at 
Ounalaaka?    A. — Yes,  sir. 


!';!' 


lO 


30 


«45 

(•)  ull  U    i  >l«  I  III  H — <  'rOHH.) 

Q. — Yoli  w«'ut  aMlion>  HoiiH'tiiiK'H?  A. — Vttt,  lli«'y  would 
iillow  on*'  wiitfli  to  K<>  ai«hon>  oiu*  dny,  iind  the  next  wiitch 
tli«>  next  diiy;  tiii\v  iillow«'d  tlie  ciiiitiiiti  iind  the  mute  to  go 
iiahore  every  day. 

H. — And  the  mate?    A. — And  the  mate, 

ii. — They  eould  do  whatever  they  ideawd?    A. — Yei«,  ulr. 

Q. — Ho  that  the  mate  and  tlie  master  of  the  'Thornton" 
were  not  eonfln»'d  to  their  nhip  at  OunalaKka?      A. — No. 

Q. — You  went  down  to  Han  Franeiaco,  so  you  do  not  know 
what  hapitened  at  Hitku?    A. — No. 

(i.— You  wen'  never  nt  HItka  that  year?    A. — No. 

(i.— You  wer«'  never  at  Hltka  at  all?     A. — No. 

Q. — At  OunahiBka  did  you  see  the  men  off  the  "Carolena" 
take  Home  pntviMlons  (m  btmrd  the  "Ht.  Paul"?    A. — Yen,  ulr. 

Q. — \Vhat  did  they  um'  to  n'lnove  the  provlHlons?  A. — 
They  UHed  one  of  the  ennoeH;  the  "Carolena"  had  four  ranoea. 

ii. — What  boat  did  they  use?  A. — The  aeallng  boat  be- 
longing to  the  sehooner  "Tliomton." 

Q. — And  they  uhihI  one  of  the««  canoes?    A. — Yea. 

Q. — They  uiM»d  one  of    ■  i;c  iMNitH?    A. — Yea,  air. 

Q. — And  they  just  took  j'l'vialona  to  the  "St.  Paul"  once? 
A.— Yea. 

Q. — You  anw  them  do  that?    A. — Yea. 

Q.— They  had  one  o"  Ihe  "TJiomtonV  bonta?    A.— Ye«. 

Q. — \Va«  there  mi  ilian  one  mnn  In  the  boat  when  the;* 
took  the  proviHiona  from  the  "Carolena"?  A. — There  wei^ 
two  men. 

(J. — Did  tlu-y  take  abo-if  Mie  name  qunntltv  of  provlaioni 
on  to  the  "St.  Paul"  Ihnt  r.ime  off  the  "Thornton?"  A.— I 
cannot  tel>  you,  becnuHe  I  never  looked  in  the  boat. 

Q. — You  never  looked  to  B«'e  what  provialona  thev  took? 
A.— No. 

Q. — Were  the  provJHiona  that  were  taken  off  the  "Car- 
olena" and  carried  to  the  "Ht.  Paul"  in  the  same  boat  that 
the  provialona  were  that  were  carried  from  the  "Thornton" 
to  the  "Ht,  Paul"?    A.— Yes. 

Q. — And  all  thia  tranafer  waa  made  In  one  trip?  A. — Yea, 
40  air. 

Q. — Were  proviaiona  taken  off  the  "Onward"  and  put  Into 
that  little  boat?    A.— No,  air. 

Q. — The  proviKiona  that  M'ere  taken  off  the  "Onward"  were 
put  Into  the  "Ban  Diego"?  A.— There  waa  the  old  "Hnn 
Diego"  there. 

Q. — You  were  not  miataken  about  that?  Yon  were  aure 
that  all  the  provialona  that  were  taken  off  the  "Carolena"  and 
went  on  to  the  "Ht.  Paul"  were  carried  in  the  aame  boat  in 
which  thev  carried  the  provlnlona  from  the  "Thornton"  to  the 
"Ht.  Paul"?    A.— Yea. 

y. — And  how  many  men  off  the  "Carolena"  were  in  that 
boat,  did  .vou  any?    A. — There  were  two  men  in  the  boat. 

Q. — How  many  men  from  the  "Thornton"  were  in  that 
boat?    A.— Thn-e. 

Q. — Then  there  weiv  five  In  thjit  altogether?    A. — Yea. 

Q. — There  were  Ave  men  in  that  boat,  and  the  proviaiona 
that  came  off  the  "Carolena."  and  the  proviaiona  that  came 
off  the  "Thornton,"  and  that  boat  went  over  to  the  "Ht.  Paul?" 
A. — Yea,  ai. 

Q, — And  there  waa  j:ist  that  one  trip  made  when  there  were 
any  proviaiona  carri«Hl?     A. — Yea,  that'a  It. 

Q. — Tlie  otlier  tripa  made  might  have  taken  men.  but  they 
did  not  take  any  proviaiona?     A. — ^No,  air. 

Q. — Are  you  certain  about  that?    A. — Yea,  air. 

Q. — Do  you  rememb<'r  how  many  men  there  were  on  the 
"fit.  I'aul"  from  the  achoonera?  A. — No,  air,  but  I  know 
that  Mr.  Hpring'a  aehooner  had  Indiana. 


SO 


60 


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10 


(John  DalluH— Cross.) 

Q. — I  do  not  think  they  went  down  with  you?    A. — No,  sir. 
Q.— They  went  on  the  "Sun  DJego"  to    Sitka?    A.— Yes, 
sir. 

Q. — Whatever  skins  you  took  between  Clayoquot  Hound  and 
Uehrini;  Sea  you  kept  right  on  board  the  vessel?  A. — Tliere 
were  Ave  skins. 

Q. — Yon  had  only  five?  A. — Five  from  Clayoquot  Bound 
to  Behring  Sea  there  wer*^  five,  and  the  rest  •We  got  inside 
Behring  Sea. 

Q. — I  think  you  said  two  men  in  a  boat  went  ont  hunting? 
A. — No,  sir,  three. 

Q. — How  do  you  make  that  out?  A. — Two  white  men  and 
an  Indian. 

Q. — 80  that  there  were  twelve  hunting  altogether?  A. — 
Yes. 

Q. — And  yon  left  the  captain  and  the  mate  on  board  the 
boat?    A. — No,  the  mate  was  hunting  too. 
20       Q' — Well,  you  left  the  captain  and  the  Chinaman  on  board 
the  boat?    A. — Yes. 

Q. — And  when  the  boats  went  out  hunting  there  would  be 
the  captain  and  the  cook  left  on  board?    A. — ^Yes,  that's  all. 
Q. — Did  you  have  many  groceries  or  provisions    left     on 
board  when  you  took  the  others  from  the  "Dolphin"?    A. — 
No,  sir,  there  was  not  very  much  left;  there  was  some  flour 
and  some  biscuits. 
Q. — You  remember  that?    A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q. — If  you  don't  recollect  it  I  don't  want  you  to  answer. 
3O  Do  you  recollect  just  about  how  much  there  was  here?    A. 
— I  could  not  tell  you  how  much  there  was  . 

Q. — But  you  could  tell  the  articles  that  were  there?    A. — 
There  were  25  or  30  sacks  of  flour. 
Q. — And  how  much  biscuit?    A. — Ten  or  twelve  sacks. 
Q. — And  the  "Thornton"  had  been  trading  with    the    In- 
dians there  from  time  to  time?    A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — On  the  trip  that  you  were  cook  on  board  had  she  been 
trading  with  the  Indians?    A. — Yes,  sir,  sometimes  some  In- 
dians would  come  and  buy  some  apples  or  something  like 
40  that. 

Q. — And  buy  some  pilot  bread?      A. — Yes. 
Q. — You  used  to  sell  the  pilot  bread  on  the  west  coast  in 
these  years?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — And  the  "Thornton"  had  enough  pilot  bread  on  board  tn 
sell  some.  A. — Yes,  they  would  carry  about  ten  boxes  un- 
less they  wanted  to  sell  some  to  the  Indians. 

Q. — And  they  would  sell  some  to  the  Indians?      A. — Oh, 
yes!      On  a  long  trip— four  or  five  months — they  would  car- 
eo  '-^  *''"  boxes  of  biscuit. 

Q. — Did  they  buy  any  slvins  from  the  Indians  on  the  west 
coast?      A. — No.  sir. 

Q. — You  took  the  provisions  off  the  "Dolphin"  at  Clayo- 
quot Sound?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Did  vou  get  all  the  provisions  you  took  off  the  "Dol- 
phin?"     a"!— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  what  you  took  off  the  "Dolphin?" 
A. — No,  sir,  I  cannot  remember. 
Q. — How  did  they  carry  tlie  things  from  the  "Dolphin"  to 
60  the  "Thornton?"      A.— In  boats. 

Q. — In  your  own  boats?  A. — Some  carried  in  those  boats, 
and  some  in  another  boat. 

Q. — Did  you  not  get  any  flour  or  any  pilot  bread  there?  A. 
—No. 

Q._What  did  you  get?     A.—  Rome  sugar,  tea.  coffee,  dried 
apples,  butter  and  three  or  four  barrels  of  beef. 
Q.— What  kind  of  beef?      A.— Corned  beef. 
Q.— Did  you  have  any  pork?     A.— Yes,  sir. 


,1!  m 


847 
(John  Dallas — (vrosa — Re-direct.) 

Q.— Did  you  get  tliat  off  the  Dolphin?      A.— Yen,  ■ir. 

Q.— Did  you  get  any  bacon  and  ham?     A.— Yes,  air. 

Q.— Did  you  jjet  that  off  the  "Dolphin?"     A.— Yea,  air. 

Q. — When  you  were  taken  up  in  Behring  Sea  you  were 
pretty  short  of  provieionB?      A. — Yea,  sir. 

Q.—  So  that  you  did  not  get  much  off  the  "Dolphin?"    A.— 
No,  sir. 
lo      Q.— Do  you  know  anything  as  to  the  value  of  what  yon  took 
from  the  "Dolphin?"      A.— I  cannot  tell. 

Q.— Was  the  "Thornton"  in  such  a  condition  when  you  en- 
tered the  Sea  that  you  could  lower  your  boats  and  seal  on 
every  good  day?     A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q.— And  she  did  that?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Do  you  n>member  what  time  she  went  into  the  Sea? 
A. — No,  sir,  I  cannot  tell  that. 

Q. — Which  bont  was  picked  first  bv  the  cutter— the  "Thorn- 
ton" or  the  "Carolenn?"      A. -The  "Thornton,"  I  was  the 
20  first  man  picked  up. 

Q  — You  were  out  in  your  little  boats?      A  —Yes.  sir. 

Q.— But  the  "Thornton"  wsis  picked  up  liefore  the  "Caro- 
lenn?"     A.— Yes. 

Q  —  And  after  the  "Carolena"  was  taken  in  iow  of  the  "Cor- 
win"  then  the  -'Onward"  was  taken?  A. — There  was  one- 
half  an  hour  or  two  miles  between  them. 

Q. — Mr.  Spring's  schooner,  vou  mean  the  "Onward?"  A. — 
Yes. 

Q.— You  went  to  San  Francisco  in  the  "St.  Paul."      Now, 
3°  in  what  boat  did  you  come  back  from  San  Francisco?      A. — 
In  the  steamer  running  from  San  Francisco  to  Victoria. 

Q. — How  many  men  were  you  altogether  when  you  came 
back  on  that  steamer?     A. — One  man  along  with  myself. 

Q. — Who  was  that  man?  A. — He  was  a  hunter  on  the 
"Carolena." 

Q.— Was  it  John  Cotsford?  A.— Yes. 

Q. — And  John  paid  your  fare?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — And  he  put  up  your  watch  to  do  that?    A. — No,  John 
.Q  put  up  his  watch  and  paid  my  passage. 

Q. — And  you  were  the  man  that  was  cook  on  the  "Thorn- 
ton" whose  fare  Cotsford  paid?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Do  you  know  anything  about  the  quanti(y  of  ammuni- 
tion that  was  on  board  the  "Thornton"  when  she  was  seiz- 
ed?     A. — I  cannot  lell. 

Q. — You  are  positive  about  there  being  no  extra  suit  of 
sails  on  board  hor?  A. — No,  sir;  all  that  was  on  her  was 
canvas  to  fix  sails  with. 

Q. — Did  you  make  a  statement  once  that  the  "Carolena" 
50  was  five  or  six  miles  from  you  when  she  was  seized?    A. — 
No. 

Q. — Is  that  nearer  right  than  what  you  have  said  just  now? 
A. — No,  sir,  two  or  three  miles  off  were  the  "Onward"  and 
the  "Carolena." 

Re-direct  examination  by  Sir  C.  H.  Tup|)er: 

Q. — What  provisions  did  you  say  were  left  on  the  "Thorn 
ton."      Were  flour  and  bread  left  there?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Were  any  other  provisions  left  on  the  "Thornton"  when 
60  you  went  on  the  steamer?     A. — There  was  not  much  left  only 
flour  and  bread. 

Q. — Was  there  anything  but  flour  and  bread?  A. — There 
might  have  been  a  few  pounds  of  sugar  or  something  like 
that. 

Q. — Nothing  else?      A. — Nothing  else. 

Q. — You  are  certain  of  thnt?      .\.— Certain. 

Q. — .Inst  as  you  were  thiit  there  were  no  sails  on  the 
"Thornton?"  A. — Only  canvas. 


848 


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Ijlir 


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11 1 


I   ! 


(John  \hil\m — Ke-dlivet.) 

Q. — When  yuu  suy  thut  there  wns  not  an  extra  8uit  of  sails 
on  board  do  you  mean  that  jou  did  not  see  them?  A. — 1 
could  Bee  them  myself,  she  was  a  small  schooner. 

Q. — Did  you  know  everything  that  was  on  board?  A. — 
Yes.  most  everything. 

Q. — Can  you  tell  me  all  that  she  had  on  board?  A. — Yes, 
I  eould  tell  you. 

Q. — What  did  she  have  on  board?  A. — Pour  boats,  in  each 
boat  two  shot  guns  and  a  rifle,  one  suit  of  sails,  several  pieces 
of  canvas,  for  repairing  sails,  bread  biscuit,  tea,  and  things 
like  that — except  tea  and  coffee  we  were  very  short  of  pro- 
vision. 

Q. — Is  that  all  you  can  mention  as  being  on  board  the 
schooner?      A. — Two  anchors  jind  chains. 

(}. — ^^'Ilal  more?  \. — I  cannot  say  about  how  much  grub 
there  was  on  the  schooner;  I  know  there  was  some  l»iscuit, 
bread,  butter,  tea,  sugar,  and  things  like  that  when  we  left 
20  Clayoquot;  I  think  that's  all. 

Q. — Was  that  all  there  was  on  the  ship?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Was  there  anything  else?     A. — No. 

Q. — You  have  told  me  all  she  had  on  board?    A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Did't  she  have  a  few  sacks  of  coal?     A. — Yes. 

Q. — Have  you  told  us  everything?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Are  you  sure  that  was  all  on  the  trip?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — .\nd  that  is  all  she  had  when  she  was  seized?  A. — 
That  is  all. 

Q. — Anything  more?     A. — Nothing  more. 

3°       Mr.  Dickinson: — Are  you  going  to  contrsidict  your  own  wit- 
ness? 

Sir  ('.  H.  Tupper: — We  have  records  on  both  sides  to  show 
that  he  is  making  a  mistake  in  this;  I  think  he  is  honest 
enough  about  it.  but  I  don't  think  he  undei-stands.  (To  the 
witness):  Are  you  able  to  sjiy.  Mr.  Dallas,  whether  any 
bivad  was  sold  on  that  trip?    A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  see  any  bi-ead  sold?     A. — N<»,  sir. 

y. — Did  you  s«h'  any  bart«'red  or  exchanged  for  other 
things?  A. — No,  sir;  on  the  northwest  coast  I  saw  them  sell 
about  <me  dollar's  worth  of  dried  apples  and  a  few  tins  of 
yeast  powder. 

Q. — Do  vou  know  how  much  pilot  bread  the  vessel  had? 
A.— I  can't  tell. 

Q. — You  do  not  know?     A. — No. 

Q.— Now,  Mr.  Dallas,  did  you  see  all  tlu"  trips  that  weit? 
made  from  the  "Carolena"  to  the  "St.  Paul"?     A. — N«»,  sir. 

(J. — You  could  not  tell  us  how  innny  trips  weie  made  by 
boats  from  the  "Carolena"  to  the  "St".  Paul?"  You  could 
not  swear  to  that?     A. — No,  sir. 

<2. — You  cannot  say  how  nianv  times  the  boats  went  from 
the  "Carolena"  to  the  "St.  Paul"?     A.— No.  sir,  I  could  not. 

(.i. — Where  were  you  when  i\u>y  were  bringing  the  j^rovis- 
ions  from  the  "Thornton"  to  the  "St.  Paul''?  A. — I  was  on 
board  the  schooner  "Thornl<m." 

Q. — Did  y«ni  remain  there  until  the  goods  went  off  the 
"Thornton"?  A. — Yes,  I  took  off  a  few  sacks  of  flour  and 
beans. 

Q. — Did  you  see  anv  eoods  coming  from  the  "Carolena"  to 
the  "St.  Paul"?     A.— Yes. 

Q. — Did  you,  yourcelf,  see  Ihr-m?     .\. — Yes. 

Q. — TIow  many  trips?     .\. — One  tHi». 

Q. — That  is  all  you  saw?  .\. — Y.'s.  otirselves  made  one 
trip  and  the  "Carolena"  niiide  another  trip  taking  provisions 
on  board  the  steamer. 

Q.— That's  all  you  saw?    A.— That's  all. 


40 


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(John  l>;illaH — K»'(liri'<t — Ho-crtms.) 

Q. — What  «la.v  was  that?     A. — I  ran')  say. 

Q. — What  tiiiM'  in  the  daj?    A. — About  ten  in  tlie  niorninR. 

Q. — That  waB  wlien  they  tooli  tlie  provisionH  from  the 
"Thornton"  to  the  "St.  Tanl"?     A.— Yen. 

Q. — On  wliat  da.v  <li<l  tliey  take  jtrovisionH  fioni  tlie  "Car 
olena"  to  the  "St.  I'aiil"?     A. — .Mioiit  tlie  same  time. 

Q. — Did  you  pull  in  the  boat?     A. — Yes. 

Q. — Did  you  pull  from  the  '"Thornton"  and  piill  from  the 
"Carolena"?  A. — Not  the  "Carolena,"  another  boat  went  on 
board  the  "Carolena."  and  brnufrlit  their  own  provisions  on 
board  the  "St.  Paul." 

Q.— You  pulled  the  "Thornton's"  stntT  to  the  "St.  raiil," 
and  some  other  boat  went  to  the  "Carolena"?     A. — Yes. 

ii. — Who  pulled  that?  .\. — Some  men  bel«»nf;inR  to  the 
"Carolena." 

Q. — You  did  not  know  them?    A. — No,  sir. 

(J. — You  did  not  examine  the  provisions  from  the  "Car- 
olena"?    A.— Xo.  sir. 

Q. — It  was  not  your  business  to  do  so?     .\. — Xo.  sir. 

Q. — You   were   attending   to  your   own    provisions? 
Yes.  sir. 

(J. — Was  there  any  arninKement  by  which  the  men 
the  "Thornton"  were  fed  on  the  "Thornton"  food,  and  the 
men  from  the  other  ships  were  fed  on  their  own  ship's  food 
when  on  board  the  "St.  Paul";  are  you  able  to  tell  me  thai 
A. — After  we  came  on  the  steamer  our  own  «'<M)k  cave 
and  the  eook  of  the  steamer  says:  "Yon  cook  for 
selves."  and  the  >rrub  from  the  "Carolena"  was  put 
pether  and  ttiven  out. 

Q. — The  food  from  the  "Carolena"  and  the  "Thornton"  was 
mixed?       A. — Yes. 


A.— 


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[   ; 

ti 


Re-eross-examination  by  Mr.  Warren: 

Q. — What  did  you  mean  wlien  you  said  you  remembered 
th:it  there  were  five  in  the  boat?  A. — That  was  in  the  two 
boats. 

40       Q. — Then  how  many  men  eame  from  the  "Carolena?"      A. 
—Two. 

Q.— Did  the  boats  from  the  "Carolena"  stop  at  the  "Thorn- 
ton?" Did  the  boat  that  took  (he  jirovisions  from  the  "Caro- 
lena" to  the  "St.  Paul"  stop  at  the  "Thornton?"       A.— YeB. 

Q. — What  did  she  stop  there  for?  A. — .lust  yarnin^r  and 
talking. 

Q. — And  how  many  men  were  in  the  boat  that  went  from 
the  "Carolena?"     Were  there  two  or  lhr«H*?     A. — Tlu-ie  were 
50    two  men  in  the  eanoe. 

Q. — You  do  not  unde!-st;in<l.  How  many  men  were  there  in 
that  boat  that  eame  from  the  "Carolena"  to  the  "Thornton" 
that  brought  provisions?  \. — Two  or  three;  (hey  did  not 
bring  them  on  board  the  "Thornton,"  they  brought  them  on 
board  the  "St.  Paul." 

Q.— Did  you  Kee  the  boat  that  took  the  provisions  from  the 
"Caroh'ua"  to  the  "St.  Paul?"      A.— I  saw  them  take  provis- 
ions on  boiird  a  steamer,  but  I  never  looked  inside. 
fio        Q. — You  only  saw  one  boat  take  provisions  from  the  "Caro- 
lena" to  the  "St.  Paul?"       A.— Yes. 

(J. — And  one  odser  boa(  took  provisions  from  the  "Tliorn- 
ton"  to  the  "St.  I'aul?"      A.— Yes. 

(^._I  suppose  (here  was  salt  on  lioard  (he  "Thornton?"  A. 
— There  must  hav«'  been  soin«'  salt  for  the  skins. 

Q.— Was  there  s«mie  lard  left  on  board  the  "Thornt<m" 
when  vou  left  iier?     A.— I  rannot  tell  you.  sir. 

54 


\l  • 


m' 


<■ 


850 

(H.  J.  Cook— Direct.) 
Q. — Did  .von  linv«  some  lard  on  tlie  trip?     A. — Yea,  bIf. 
Tlie  witness  was  not  furtlier  examined. 
Tlie  CoiumiHsiouera  tlien  rose  at  I  p.  in. 


1:1 ; 


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I  I  '  I 


10 


Oommiasionen  under  tbs  OonTentlon  of  February  8,  1896,  between 
Ore«t  Britain  and  tlie  United  States  of  America 

Ohambers  of  the  Legislative  Assembly, 

At  Victoria,  December  26, 1896. 

At  10:30  a.  ni.,  tho  Conimissioners  tooli  their  seats. 


20 


Mr.  Peters: — I  propose  now  to  proee«>d  with  the  case  of  the 
"Onwai-d,"  and  wish  to  nialje  a  few  reniarljs  with  reference 
TO  that  case. 

I  state  that  with  regard  to  the  outfit  of  the  "Onward,"  she 
outfitted  in  tlie  niontli  of  February,  or  March,  with  a  very 
considerable  amount  of  provisions;  these  provisions  were  not 
ail  intended  for  her  sealing  voyage,  but  a  considerable  por- 
tion was  intended  for  trading  purposes  on  the  west  coast  of 
Vancouver  Island,  where  Mr.  Spring,  the  managing  owner 
30  of  the  "Onward,"  was  inter('st<>d  in  thi-ee  trading  stations. 

I  state  that  it  is  impossible  for  me  to  separate  the  articles 
which  were  intended  for  such  trading  pnrpo8(>s  from  those 
which  were  iutt'nd*>d  as  part  of  the  actual  sealing  outfit. 

Therefore,  I  will  content  myself,  to  a  certain  extent,  wifh 
giving  general  evidence  as  to  the  quantity  and  quality  of  the 
provisions  put  on  board  the  "Onward"  during  that  voyage. 

Of  course  the  voudiers  are  here  for  inspection,  and  may  be 
of  value  with  rrgnrd  to  the  prices. 

As  to  the  evidence,  it  is  agreed  that  the  '"Onward"  was  a 

40  vessel  of  35.20  tons  register,  50  5-10  feet  long,  20  feet  wide 

and  4.5  feet  deep;  that  she  was  built  in  California.  United 

States  of  America,  in  1871 ;  that  she  was  registered    as    a 

British  ship  in  the  port  of  Victoria,  52nd  September,  1878. 

Hubert  John  Cook  was  called  as  a  witness  on  the  part  of 
Great  Britain  and  duly  sworn. 

Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Peters:, 

Q. — State  generally  how  long  you  have  been  in  the  ship 
5(>  building  business?    A. — Forty-six  years. 

Q. — How   long  were  you  actually  the  owner  of  ways 
which  vessels  were  hauled  up  for  repairs  and  alterations? 
A. — I  had  ways  in  Nanaimo  in  1800  and  1867. 

Q. — In  the  city  of  Victoria  have  you  had  them  since  1873? 
A. — Yes,  sir,  I  have  had  them  for  the  past  sixteen  years. 

Q. — And  during  that  time  had  you  experience  in  the  repair- 
ing of  very  many  schooners?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  also,  I  believe,  built  some  schooners?    A. — I  have 
(^  built  no  schooners;  I  have  built  steam  boats  and  small  craft, 
but  I  never  built  sealing  schooners. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  wish  the  evidence  given  by  this  witness, 
and  taken  in  tlie  "Thornton"  case,  with  the  exception  of  such 
parts  as  are  obviously  inapplicable  to  this  case,  to  be  trans- 
erred. 

Direct  examination  continued  by  Mr.  Peters; 


851 


20 


(II.  J.  Cook— Diiert.) 

Q. — 1  want  you  to  come  down  fo  the  schooner  "Onward." 
Did  you  work  on  the  schooner?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  work  on  lier  in  tlie  yenr  1878?    A. — Yes.  nir. 

Q. — Have  you  a  book  there  with  reference  to  that?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — According  to  that  book  did  you  work  on  her  in  Septem- 
ber, 1878?  A. — Yes.  that  was  wlien  she  was  brought  to  the 
'O  country  first. 

Q.  -I  want  you  to  tell  me  if,  at  that  time,  she  was  a  centre- 
board? A. — Yes,  slie  had  a  centre-board  on  one  side  of  the 
keel,  it  did  not  go  through  on  the  main  keel. 

Q.— Did  they  alter  tluit?    A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  do  the  work?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— What  did  you  do?  A. — I  took  out  the  centre-board, 
and  blocked  tlx*  hole  up  that  g<M>H  underneath,  and  put  in  a 
false  kei>l  and  main  keel,  and  fastened  her  right  down 
through. 

Q. — You  altered  her  from  the  centre  board  to  a  keel  ves- 
sel, putting  on  a  false  keel?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  worked  on  her  in  1881  again  according  to  your 
book  from  the  30th  September  to  the  11th  October.  That's 
in  your  book;  is  that  correct?  A. — That  is  correct,  what  is 
in  that  book. 

Q. — Was  she  on  your  slip  again  in  188fi?  A. — Yes,  she 
was  there. 

Q.— In  January.  1880.  to  February.  1886?A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  then  she  went  out  to  sea,  and  was  not  heard  of 
any  more?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Will  yon  tell  me  what  sort  of  a  vessel  she  was,,  and 
what  she  was  built  of?    A. — She  was  built  of  Oregon  pine. 

Q. — Was  she  copper  fastened,  or  galvanised?  A. — She 
was  galvanised. 

Q. — Do  you  know  anything  about  her  sailing  qualities?  A. 
— She  was  a  very  good  sailer. 

Q. — How  do  you  know  that?  A. — From  what  I  heard  from 
Captain  McKay. 

Q. — What  did  he  say?    A. — He  said  she  sailed  good. 

Q. — Could  yon,  from  your  knowledge  of  the  "Onward,"  say 
what  she  was  worth  in  1886? 

The  roinmis«(ioner  on  the  part  of  the  Ignited  States: — We 
had  better  avoid  confusion  in  that.  T  got  confused  the  other 
day  because  of  a  question  like  that  that  was  put  to  a  ship 
carpenter — perhaps  Mr.  Cook,  hijnself — and  it  turned  out 
that  he  answered  what  he  thought  she  cost,  as  she  stood. 


50 


40 


5C 


Mr.  Peters: — I  will  ask  him  what  she  cost  to  build. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  Ignited  States: — It 
does  not  matter  how  you  put  it  so  long  as  it  is  made  clear. 

Mr.  Peters: — Certainly    (To  witness): 

Q. — From  your  knowledge  of  ships,  and  from  your  know- 
ledge of  ship  building,  what  would  the  "Onward"  cost  to 
liuild  in  1S8(>?      A.— That  is  here  in  Victoriii? 

Q. — Yes.  A.— She  would  cost  flO.'i  a  foot,  builder's 
60  measurement,  that  is  for  hull  and  spars. 

Q. — Can  you  give  it  to  nie  by  the  ton.  instead  of  by  the 
foot?      A. — It  was  "ton"  I  meant. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — This  evidence  is  only  coni|)etent.  of  course, 
in  the  absence  of  evidence  as  to  market  value. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  Vnited  States: — It 
is  covered  by  the  objection  taken  in  the  "Carolena"  case. 


Wj\ 


i    '1^ 


(|ii:"l 


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W. 


l!'!      I 


:  I, 


Mliif 


WfF^l 


'    <||..|,: 


20 


853 

01.  J.  (NMjk— IHivit— Cioss.) 
Dirt'fJ  fxiiiuiiialiuii  by  Mi*.  IN'tt'i-s  i-oiitiiiii*>d: 

Q. — You  nii'iiu  biiil'Ifi-'B  iut*nHiiri'niunt  by  "tou?"      A. — Yes. 

Q. —  Do  you  kuow  (In*  diiTeinicf  betwt^t'u  buildor'H  uieuHuro- 
iiii'Ui  jind  r«>{;iMtor('(i  nuMiHUivnient?  A. — It  till  tlcponds  on 
the  sliiip*'  of  tilt'  v«'HH«-l  wliu-li  liiiH  trot   to  lu'  It^urod  out. 

(i. — I>o  you  kTu»w  wliiit  the  (ountiKf  ''f  t'ds  vi'Hsel  w«)uld  be 
— bnllder'H  uientiurenient?      A. — I  have  no  i-i'i-olleclion. 
to       (i.— ("an  you  (ell  me  near  i(?      A.— She  would  be  i'A  or  44 
tons. 

Q. — That   Is  buildei'K  ineaHurenicnt?       A. — Yes. 

Q.— When  you  Hay  "hull  and  sparH,"  do  you  mean  it  would 
not  im-lude  the  sailH  and  I'lfffiinn'!  A. — No,  Bir,  I  inelude  in 
that  hull  and  t)])arH.  and  notliin}?  more. 

Q-— You  knew  about  the  aj,'e  of  the  "Onward,"  did  you? 
A. — Yes.  she  wan  built  in  1S71. 

Q.—  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  sale  of  veHHeln  nt  that 
time?  The  jtrice  that  vessels  were  sellinj:  at  at  that  time? 
•^•— Of  eonrso  I  eould  pive  a  roujjh  statement  of  the  ju-iee  (tf 
v«'»8els  at  that  time. 

Q.— TlaviuR  repaid  to  the  ajje  of  (he  "Onward."  what  would 
you  think  she  was  worth  at  (hat  time?  Taking  the  differenee 
between  her  and  a  new  vessel,  was  she  in  pood  order,  or  what 
sort  of  order  was  she  in.  in  ISSfi?  A. — In  H|dendid  order,  I 
would  claim  that  she  was  a  vessi^l  that  was  well  kept. 

Q. — She  would  not  be  as  pood  ns  a  new  vessel.  I  presume? 
A.— No. 

30       rross-exainination   by   Mr.   \Varren: 

Q.— ^Vheu  you  gave  your  testimony  in  the  ease  of  the 
"Thornton"  you  slated  that  she  was  repaired  in  1877,  and  that 
in  the  year  18!S(>  she  was  as  good  as  new,  praetieally,  or  that 
there  was  about  |1(H»  ditTerence?      A.— That  is  all. 

Q.— ^Vhy  do  you  say  that  the  "Onward"  was  not  anywhere 
as  pood  as  new  although  you  stated  that  slie  had  bwu  well 
kept?      A. — I  said  she  had  been  well  kept. 

Q. — You  also  s(a(ed  (hat  she  was  not  ivordi  as  much  as  sin? 
40  was  new?  A.— I  never  saw  thntugh  the  'Onwaril"  as  I  did 
the  "Thornton,"  I  never  went  tliroiiph  tiie  frame  of  the  "On- 
ward." 

(i. — ^'011  iieviM-  inspcrtfd  the  "Onwa.d?"  A. — Never  a 
thoronph  insp«><-tion. 

Q. — You  do  iio(  know  whedier  (he  frames  were  sound  or 
not?  A  — I  think  1  bored  tlirouph  the  bottom,  and  it  was 
all  ripht. 

Q. — I  thought  you  said  that  you  never  inspected  her?  A. 
—I  did  not  see  tier  any  more  than  the  borings. 

Q. — You  b(M"ed  in  (lirough  her?  A. — Yes,  I  bored  through 
her,  and  fastened  hi-r  keel.       Tliat  was  in  1S7H. 

ii  — You  do  not  know  anytliing  about  her  timbers  after 
IS7S,  as  to  tlieir  remaining  sound  or  not?  A. — I  never  seen 
lier  timbers. 

Q. — After  tliat?  A. — She  was  well  ke]»t,  she  was  fastened 
in  lier  centre  board,  and  (here  was  not  leakage  there. 

(i.— You  talked  about  wliat  it  would  cost  to  build  the  "On- 
ward" in  ISSfi:  \Yhat  vessels  of  tlw'  character  of  the  "On- 
60    ward"  did  you  build  in  ISSti?      A.— 1  do  not  know. 

Q.— Did  Vou  build  any?       A.— No. 

Q.— Did  you  build  any  in  th.;  year  1SS.5?  A.— I  did  not 
V)uil(l  anv  sealing  schooners. 

Q.— XVliat  steam  boats  did  you  build  in  IHSfi?  A.— The 
"Royal  ntyr 

().— In  (he  vear  IHMfl?      A.— T(  w;is  long  before  that. 

q._\V1h.ii  was  it?      A.  -If  was  in  -Tune.  1S7I,  or  1S7.^. 

Q. — Were  you  working  on  any  boats  in  (he  year  188(»,  e.xcept 


SO 


«53 


20 


30 


40 


50 


Co 


(}l.  .1.  < '00k— Cross.) 
iu  (he  uialU'i-  of  iii»aiiM?       A.— Of  couiBe  1   was  icpaiiiui; 

\  «'t»SL*lt)-. 

y.— Wi-re  >ou  eouslructiug  any  uew  vt-Hsels,  or  wore  you  uii- 
BiHiiiig  iu  tUf  eouHtructiou  ot  uuy  uew  vosBeiH?  A. — .No,  1 
dou't  iluuk  il. 

I/.-  Uow  Uo  jou  know  liow  uiui;l»  it  would  tost  lo  build  u 
voBHi'l  iu  l«!sor      iV.— 1  could  tell  you  wluii  lUvy  were  wortli, 
,    1  nave  ugured  lUeiu  up,  1  could  make  HpecilicatioUM  aud  i 
could  ruu  tlirougli  llie  biiccillcuiiou,  aud  leu  you  exacliy  wuat 
Uie  vessel  is  i;oiug  lo  cost  me. 
U- — Aud  you  could  uow,  1  suppose?      A. — 1  could  tbeu. 
<l- — llow  do  you  know  what  u  would  cost  iu  i8»0?      A. — 
Uecause  1  knew  wliai  tlie  prices  were. 

*4- — i<*"  do  not  kuow  auylhiug  about  the  market  value  of 
boats  iu  1880?  A.— So  tar  as  that  goes  there  was  110  real 
iiiarkct  value. 

il. — Hut  boats  were  trauaferred  from  one  person  to  another 
at  mat  time/  -V. —  i  es,  we  used  lo  buy  some  vessels  from 
>San  i<  ranciMi-o,  and  s«(iue  came  out  from  tlie  East. 

(I. — Were  tiiere  any  that  came  out  from  the  KasI  in  18S0? 
A. — Yes,  Ihe  "falhUnder"  was  the  lirst  lo  come  out,  and  1 
think  she  came  out  in  18.SU. 

<j. — She  was  the  only  om-  in  1880?  A. — She  was  the  tirst 
one  that  came  here. 

Q. — What  is  your  estimate  of  the  cost  of  the  "Onward" 
in  J88<>?  A.— I  consider  between  |!4,01I0  and  Ij!4,u00,  or  soine- 
tniiig  like  that. 

II. —  Von  got  that  figure  on  a  basis  of  f  Id'i  per  builder's  ton? 
A. — ^_She  would  run  over  that. 

ti.— 1  aslved  you  v.  hat  the  "Ouward"  would  cost  in  188(i,  and 
ami  you  said  tietweeu  ;|f4,t)t((»  and  $4,r)U«?  A.— 1  told  you 
.flllu  per  ton. 

l^. — Did  not  you  answer  me  just  now  that  Ihe  cost  would 
be  between  f4,tlW0  and  )ji4,.">(IO?  A.— I  say  that  the  vessel  was 
honestly  worth  between  !|fJ,000  and  ;f4,5o0. 

ti.— Was  Ihal  your  idt-a  of  what  she  would  cost  in  188(;? 
.\. — She  would  cost  more  than  that. 

<i.— How  much  wt>uld  she  cost  iu  188tT?  A.— That  vessel 
should  run  up  over  $5,UU0. 

Q. — On  what  basis  did  you  arrive    at     that?     You     have 
stated  that  she  would  cost  #105  per  builder's  ton?    A. — Yes, 
she  would  go  a  long  way  over  that. 
Q.— Over  what?     A.— Over  |5,U()0. 

Q. — How  much  would  she  go  over?  A. — I  have  not  any 
tigurea  here. 

Q. — How  much  do  you  say  she  would  cost  iu  1886  to  build 
her?     A.— In  188t>  you  might  take  a  little  oflf  that, 
g.— Take  a  little  oft'  what?     A.— OH'  the  flOo  a  ton. 
y. — Do  you  say  that  she  would  cost  f  lllu  a  ton  to  build  in 
188G?     A.— No. 
Q. — Y'ou  do  not  say  that?     A. — I  do  not  say  that  in  1886. 
y.— Didn't  you  tell  Mr  .Peters  that?     A.— Not  in  1886,  I 
think  1  put  it  at  that  at  the  time  I  repaired  her. 

Q. — What  in  18T7  or  1878,  is  that  what  you  mean?  A. — In 
1878  I  would  say  that. 

Q. — Then  you  did  not  intend  to  testify  that  she  would  cost 
1105  per  builder's  ton  to  build  in  Victoria  in  1886?  A. — Y'ou 
have  got  me  u  kind  of  muddled  up  there. 

Q.^Did  you  say  that  she  would  cost  that  in  1886?  A.— 
I  think  she  would  have;  in  1886  you  would  have  to  pay  al- 
most double  for  the  material  than  you  woulil  now. 

Q. — I  want  to  understand  whether  you  say  that  tlie  cost  of 
building  a  boat  like  the  "Onward"  in  1886  was    fl05    per 


S 


rll 


w 


a'k  . 

•ill: 


nil. 


M.!:': 


I'ljH 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


5C 


60 


854 

(n.  J.  ("ook — ('roHs — Rodlrt'ct.) 

builder's  ton?  A.— Yes,  it  would  be  when  you  came  to 
reckon  what  the  mnterial  was  worth  then. 

Q.— JuBt  answer  my  question.  Tn  1877  your  idea  Is  that 
she  would  cost  |105  per  builder's  ton?    A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q._VVa8  it  just  (he  same  in  1886  as  it  was  in  1877?  A.— 
There  was  very  little  difference. 

Q.— Do  1  understand  that  to  build  the  "Onward"  in  1886 
it  would  cost  flOO  per  builder's  ton?    A.— Yes. 

Q.— What  is  your  idea  of  the  total  cost  of  the  "Onward"  in 
1886,  or  of  a  boat  like  the  "Onward"?  A.— The  total  cost  as 
she  stood  then  I  would  put  in  at  about  |4,500;  sEe  was  well 
fitted  oul  in  riKgiug  and  sjuls,  and  everythinjj  about  her  was 
good;  I  could  not  go  into  the  inside  where  I  could  see  her. 

Q. — I  am  not  asking  you  about  that.  You  say  that  the  to- 
tal cost  of  the  "Onward"  ready  to  go  to  sea  In  1886  would  be 
$4,500.    Is  that  what  you  niean?    A. — She  was  worth  that. 

Q. — Ready  to  go  to  sea?    A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Ready  to  take  her  sealing  outfit — that  is  leaving  pro- 
visions out,  we  are  not  talking  about  provisions  at  all.  Is  it 
not  your  idea  that  the  "Onward,"  reckoning  on  a  basis  of 
|105  per  builder's  ton,  would  cost  |4,500?  A. — Yes,  she 
would  cost  over  that. 

Q. — How  many  builder's  tons  are  there  in  a  registered  ton? 
A. — A  builder's  ton  is  05  feet,  a  registered  ton  is  lOO  feet. 

Q. — And  that  is  your  idea  of  the  difference  between  a 
builder's  ton  and  a  registered  ton,  is  it,  Mr.  Cook?  A. — Yes, 
that  is  my  way  of  measuring  a  vessel. 

Re-direct  4>xaniination  by  Mr.  Pt^ters: 

Q. — You  were  asked  whether  you  had  examined  the  frames 
of  the  vessel;  as  a  matter  of  f^Tct  could  you  examine  the 
frames  without  taking  out  the  ceilings?  A. — No,  certainly  not. 

Q. — You  did  not  take  the  ceilings  out?  A. — I  did  not  take 
the  ceilings  out. 

Q. — So  you  did  not  examine  the  frame  of  the  vessel?  A. — 
I  could  not  sec  anything  of  the  frame. 

Q. — But  you  could  see  in  putting  in  the  keel,  you  bored 
through  her  keel?  A. — I  bored  through  her  timber  and 
through  her  outside  keel. 

Q. — Everything  there  was  solid?  A. — Everything  was 
sound. 

Q. — You  were  asked  by  Mr.  Warren  as  to  whether,  making 
up  your  measurement,  yo>i  weiv  speaking  of  1886  or  1877 
when  you  i)ut  down  the  Jil(t5  ])or  ton.  As  a  matter  of  fact 
were  wages  and  nialerial  different  in  1886  from  what  they 
were  in  1877 — were  they  higher  or  lower?  A. — ^There  was 
very  little  difference,  the  wages  were  the  same  and  the  ma- 
t«'rial  was  nearly  the  same  tiling,  there  was  very  little  differ- 
ence In  it. 

Q. — You  talked  about  builder's  measurement  and  you  gave 
one  difference  between  that  and  the  registered  measure.  As 
a  matter  of  fact,  in  using  your  l)nildei's  measure,  what 
measurement  do  you  take?  A. — I  take  from  the  perpendi- 
culars. 

Q. — Where?    A. — From  the  stem  and  stem  post. 

(i. — And  what  with?    A.— Her  full  b»'endth  of  beam. 

Q. — And  so  to  speak  you  make  that  into  a  box  shape?  A. 
— Into  a  square  box  shape. 

Q. — That  is  what  you  call  builder's  measurement?  A. — 
Yes. 

Q. — That  is  far  larger  than  registered  tonnage?    A. — Yes. 

Q. — Tliat  is  Ihe  rough  way  you  get  at  it?       A. — Yes. 

Q. — You  could  not  tell  from  the  builder's  meanurement 
what  the  vessel  is  going  to  register  at?    A. — No,  sir. 


(H.    J.    Cook- 


S55 

-Redirect — KeeruHH. 
CroHH.) 


O.     WjirntT — Direct — 


Q. — DooB  not  that  dopend  entirely  upon  the  shape?    A. — 
That  depends  upon  the  Hhnpc  of  tlie  vessel. 

Re-rross-exaniination  hy  Mr.  Warren: 

Q. — Is  it  your  idea  tliat  the  "Onward"  was    worth    more 
than  the  "Thornton"  in  188«?    A.— No. 
*o      Q. — About  how  much  less  was  the  "Onward"  worth  than 
the  "Tliomton"  in  188«?    How  much  is  your  idea  of  what  the 
"Thornton"  was  worth?    A.— f5,5()0. 

Q.— Ready  for  machinery?    A.— Ready  for  sea  without  ma- 
chinery ready  to  receive  her  machinery. 

Q.— Do  you  base  your  valuation  of  tlie  "Thornton"  on  what 
she  would  cost  to  build  in  1886?    A.— No, 


II 


■I 


20 


Orlando  Warner,  a  witness  on  the  part  of  Great  Britain, 
was  recalled. 

Mr.  Peters:— I  wish  the  evidence  of  this  witness  as  taken 
in  the  "Carolena"  and  "Thornton"  cases  to  be  transferred  to 
the  "Onward"  case — except  where  it  is  obviously  inapplic- 
able; that  applies  to  the  cross-examination  and  re-examina- 
tion. 

3°      Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q. — You  knew  the  schooner  "Onward,"  I  believe?  A. — 
Yes. 

Q. — Have  you  ever  worked  on  her?  A. — I  never  worked 
on  her. 

Q. — Have  you  seen  her  frequently  on  not?  A. — I  was  in 
the  habit  of  seeing  her. 

Q. — Was  that  when  she  came  into  harbor?    A. — Yes,  every 
year. 
^°       Q. — ^About  what  would  such  a  vessel  be  worth  about  the 
year  1886?      You  knew  her  age  did  you  not?      A. — No,  1 
did  not  know  Iiei*  age. 

Q. — Was  she  kep*^  iu  good  order?  A. — She  always  looked 
to  me  to  be  a  well  taken  care  of  little  vessel. 

Q. — Can  you  give  me  your  idea  of  lier  value?  A. — Well, 
such  a  vessel  as  that  would  be  worth  anywhere  in  the  neigh- 
borhood of  14,0(10  to  f5,000  ready  for  an  ordinary  trip. 

Q. — Outside  of  a  sealing  trip  altogether?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  never  worked  on  her?  A. — No,  sir,  I  never  work- 
ed on  her. 

Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Dickinson: 

Q. — Were  you  ever  on  her?  A. — I  have  no  recollection  of 
ever  having  any  business  in  her. 

Q. — Yon  do  not  remember  ever  having  been  on  her  at  all? 
A. — I  do  not  remember  of  ever  being  on  board  her. 

Q. — Did  you  see  her  on  the  stays?  A. — Yes,  sir,  I  saw  her 
60  on  the  ways. 

Q. — When?  A. — I  do  not  recollect  the  year,  I  have  seen 
her  out,  I  have  seen  her  at  a  distance. 

Q. — You  have  seen  her  at  t!ie  shipyard?  A. — Yes,  on  what 
we  call  the  ways. 

Q. — W^hat  were  you  doing  at  the  ship  yard  at  that  time? 
\. — I  do  not  recollect  that  1  was  even  at  the  yard,  but  I  have 
Been  her,  I  never  went  to  examine  her  at  all. 


50 


!    I 


■■■  f 


'\  I 


II 


'  II 


lilll 


M 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


856 

(H.  Si'ii  -Diicct— ri'otw.) 

Kainu«'l  F>4'ii  wiiH  ciillfd  iih  a  witncHM  uii  tlii'  part  of  Uri'nt 
Itiitaiii,  aiMl  waH  diilv  hwoi-ii. 

DirtM-t  cxaniinatiun  hy  Mr.  IVtt'rB: 

ti. — WhiTu  do  you  llvt',  Mr.  Hoa?      A. — lii  Victoriu. 

(2. — Ami  you  are  about,  liow  old  mow?      A. — 5!». 

ii- — Wlial  iH  }our  oi-cupatiou?  A. — Hliip  builder,  sliip- 
vvrij^lil. 

ti.— How  long  have  you  bci-ii  i'lnployt'd  in  that  work?  A. 
— Kv«'r  Hinrc  1  \va8  a  boy  14  y«>arH  old. 

<i. — What  ki'id  of  work  have  .vou  bi'cn  t*in|iloyi>d  at?  A. — 
Huilding  vt-HwiH  of  varioiiM  kindH. 

H. — llavf  you   built    any   m-lioonci'H?       A. — Yes. 

i}. — Such  UH  iir«'  used  f«>r  Healing?       A. — Yes. 

<2.— You  actually  Ituilt  them?       A. — Yes. 

ti- — You  contracted  feu-  them?      A. — Xo.  to  own  them. 

0. — Have  you  built  many?      A.— 1  have  built  two. 

(i. — Two  f»»r  Healing?      \. — YeK 

{]. — In  what  yearn?      A. — In  the  Hixtie«. 

Q. — Where?  A. — I  built  one  in  Victoria  and  one  in  AI- 
borni. 

(i.— \Vhen?      A.— One  in  1S«:1  and  one  in  IS68. 

Q. — You  have  a  knowledge  of  what  it  would  <'«mt  to  build 
that  kind  of  vesnel?       A. — Yes,  pretty  well. 

Q. — And  up  t«  the  preuent  time?  A. — \o,  sir,  I  have  not 
built  any  within  the  past  ten  yeai'M. 

ii. — I'l*  to  ten  yeaiH  ago  had  you  a  knowledge  of  what  it 
would  coHt  to  build  that  Hort  of  a  vetwel?      A. — (Hi,  y«'H. 

(i. —  Did  you  know  the  Hchooner  "Onward?"'      A. — Yes. 

(2. — Had  yon  seen  her  freipieutly  or  otherwise?  A. — I  had 
seen  her  aind  I  had  worked  on  her. 

(2.— When  did  y(»u  work  on  her,  Mr.  Sea?  A. — I  worked  on 
her  Heveral  times,  I  think,  when  she  first  came  to  Victoria, 
I  did  n<tt  kecjt  any  dates  Itecause  1  was  not  boss  of  the  job. 

(2. — Who  was  lioss?       A. — Mr.  <'ook. 

(2. — Did  y«»u  work  on  her  when  she  was  changed  froni  a 
centre  board  to  a  keel?       A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Hav«'  you  any  knowledge  of  what  it  would  cttst  to  build 
this  class  of  a  vessel  here,  and  from  your  knowledge  of  the 
"Onward,"  can  you  tell  us  aliont  what  that  vessel  was  worth 
in  ISSC?      A.— That  is  for  her  hull  and  spars. 

Q._n,.i'  liull  and  spars,  and  stern  post,  everything  ready 
for  going  to  sea,  with  the  excejition  of  her  sealing  outfit?  A. 
—I  should  think  that  a  vessel  of  her  kind,  as  she  was  then, 
would  be  worth  ^4.B0tl. 

Q._ls  that  including  her  sealing  outfit?  A.— No.  only  her 
hull  and  sjiars  and  sails. 

Q.— And  the  stern  boat,  and,  of  course,  the  anchors,  and 
everything  of  that  kind?       A.— Yes. 


60 


t'ross-examinaticm   by   Mr.   Dickinson: 


A.— In 


Q.— What  was  the  last  sealing  ship  yon  bnilt? 
1872. 

Q.— What  was  it?       \.—\   schooner. 

(2.— Name?      A.— •Cambria." 

Q.— Tonnage?      A. — I  think  she  was  .Ti  tons,  or  something 
like  that,  but  I  cannot  swear  now. 

Q.— Where  is  she?      A. — She  is  on  the  New  Zealand  coast. 

(2. — Were  y<»u  the  boss?       A. — I  was. 

C2. — And  the  contr:ictor?      A. — Yes. 

(2.— In   1H72?  A.— Yes. 

Q.— That  is  the  last  one  you  built?       A. — Yes. 


,M 


«57 

(H.    H<  II— < 'lOHH.) 

Q.— Ami  llu'  ollu'i-  out'  ^vou  built  in  ItHM'l      A.— Iii  18«;{  or 
1.SU4. 

ti.— TluTt'  ia  no  doubt  almut  these  years  when  you  built; 
in  1803  or  1H«4,  hiu\  the  other  in  1872?      A.— Yes. 

Q.— What  did  tlie  "(v'auibrla"  cost?  A.— The  whole  out- 
fit? 

Q- — Von  were  the  eontrartor,  ean  you  renienilN*r  what  she 
,o    ••"Nt?       1  asked  you   what  mIu-  eost  y<)u  for  your  «ontra«t? 
A. — I  believe  she  eost  in  the  nei);hlH»rlu)od  of  f:t,IH)l). 

Q.— Did  you  build  In  18«.«  or  18«4  for  yourself?  A.— With 
two  partners. 

Q.— What  ship?      A.— The  "(Joldstreani." 

(■i- — How  much  tonnat;e?      A. — 52  tons. 

Q.— The  same  ;j8  (he  'Cambria?"  A.— SomethinK  about 
the  same. 

Q. — Did  you  build  her  for  a  sealing  trip?      A. — There  was 
no  sealing  in  existenee. 
20       Q. — In  your  direct  examination  you  said  you  built  sealing; 
ships?      A. — They  were  the  same  class  of  vessel. 

Q. — You  do  not  mean  you  ever  built  a  sealing  ship?  A. — 
Not  direct,  but  the  same  thing. 

Q.— What  did  your  tirst  ship  in  IH(K\  cost?  A.— In  the 
neighborhood  of.  |t<i,4NHK 

Q.— Was  she  built  in  Victoria?  A.— Hlie  was  built  In  Al- 
berni. 

Q. — Did  you  ever  work  on  tin-  "Onward"  exce|)t  at  the  tinu' 
that  Mr.  Cook  was  boss?      A. — Yes. 
^  Q. — ^Vhat  otlu-r  times?      A. — I  work(>d  for  Mr.  Kpring. 

Q.— On  the  "Onward?"       A.— On  the  "Onward." 

Q. — In  what  shipyard?      A. — She  was  atloat. 

Q. — What  were  you  doing  on  her  afloat?  .\. — I  was  caulk- 
ing the  deck. 

Q. — Anything  else?       A. — Oenerally  ]iatching  up. 

Q. — Did  you  ever  work  on  her  hull?  A. — We  did  for 
Mr.  Hprlng. 

Q. —  When  was  that?       A. — In   ISSd,  or  somewhere  along 
40   there. 

Q. — When  diil  you  work  on  her  under  Mr.  Cook?  A. — I 
think  it  was  in  1878  or  tS7!». 

Q. — And  you  have  not  been  working  on  any  oth»'r  ship 
since?      A. — Yes,  lots  of  them. 

Q. — Of  the  same  class  as  the  "Onward?  A. — Pretty  much 
the  same  class. 

Q. — How  many  do  you  think  yoti  have  worked  on  sin«'e 
1S7S?      A. — I  suppose  20,  it  might  be  more  or  less. 

Q. — Have  you  seen  the  "Onward"  since  you  work»'d  on  her? 
50    A. — Yes.  I  have  seen  her  when  she  used  to  conu"  into  harbour. 

Q. — Have  you  been  upon  her?      A. — Y'^es. 

Q. — Have  you  seen  her  since  1880?  A. — I  cannot  say  I 
have  seen  her  since  1880.  I  might. 

Q. — Are  you  positive  you  saw  lier  betwten  1880  and  1880? 
A. — I  think  I  have. 

Q. — Well,  are  you  positive?  A. — I  cannot  exactly  swear, 
but  I  am  almost  sure. 

Q. — Are  vou  about  as  sure  that  you  saw  her  since  1880? 

Co   ^^•— Yps- 

Q. — VriMxi  are  yon  doing  now?      A. — I  am  working  at  my 

trade  sometimes. 

Q.— What  is  that?       A.— Ship  building. 

Q. — What  else  are  you  doing?  A. — T  am  working  on  the 
farm. 

Q. — Where  do  yon  farm?  A. — It  is  ont  on  the  Burnside 
road. 

Q. — Do  vou  devote  vo'.ir  attention  entirelv  to  vour  farm? 
A.— No. 


"11 


r 


l^uHnf ! 


lO 


20 


!ii.i': 


858 

(H.   H,.,|_r,.oHH— R«'»lln«».       A.    WatHoii— IMwrf.) 

Q. — Do  vou  il«*vut('  ^-oiir  iitti>ntlun  f>iitiri>lv  to  Hliip  build- 
Ing?      A.— No. 

Q. — To  what  do  vou  d«»vot«'  vour  nttentioii  principnlly?  A. 
— Whon  I  tn'\  like  ^hip  building  I  do  it. 

Q. — Whnt  t'liip  do  you  do?    A. — Walk  around. 

Q. — You  nn»  wtlrwl?  A. — I  am  not  exactly  n'tired,  If  any 
one  wants  me  to  work  for  them  I  do. 

y. — Are  you  living  In  the  digtrict? 
Kumaide  road. 

Q. — Do  you  stay  here  at  nightH    in 
tinies. 

Q. — What  do  you  do  about  town? 

Q. — Yes.     A. — Walk  around  and  see  the  nightH. 

Q. — Every  day?    A. — Not  every  day. 

Q. — And  when  you  work  In  the  ship  yard  you  work  as  a 
joumeymaQ?  Do  you  work  for  dally  wages?  A. — Yes,  for 
dally  wages. 

Q. — When  you  put  a  price  upon  the  "Onward,"  were  you 
thinking  of  her  because  of  your  knowledge  of  ship  building? 
A.— YeB. 


A. — I  am  living  on  the 
Victoria?    A.— Rome- 
A.— What  do  I  do? 


■n,\W 


30 


Re-dlrect  examination  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q. — When  you  spoke  of  building  two  vessels,  one  in  1S03 
and  th  eother  in  1872,  yon  stated  that  they  were  about  52 
tons  each,  if  you  remembered  correctly?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — When  you  speak  of  tonnage  in  that  way,  are  you  giv- 
ing builder's  measurement  or  rr'gistered  tonnage?  A. — 
Registered  tonnage. 


m 


'f\ 


'ill: 


i<; 


ii'r 


■  I 


!    II 


Alexander  Watsoa,  Jr.,  was  recalled  as  a  witness  on  the 
part  of  Qreat  liritaiu. 

40  Mr.  Peters: — With  regard  io  this  witness  I  desire  that  his 
evidence  given  in  the  case  of  the  'i'iirol'iia,"  exe«*pt  where 
obviously  inapplicable,  should  be  transferred,  and  also  his 
evidence  given  in  the  "Thornton"  case,  that  applies  to  the 
cross-examination  and  also  to  the  re-cross-examination. 

Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q. — Will  you  be  kind  enough  to  tell  me  whether  you  know 
the  "Onward"?    A.— Yes. 
50        Q. — Did  you  ever  work  on  her?    A. — Not  that  I  remember. 

Q. — Have  you  Ead  several  opportunities  of  examining  and 
seeing  the  "Onward"?  A. — 1  have  been  on  board  several 
times,  and  around  her  very  often. 

Q. — Did  you  see  her  when  she  was  oii  the  slip  at  any 
time?    A. — Not  that  1  remember. 

Q. — You  have  seen  her  in  the  harboui"  on  several  occas- 
ions?   A. — Yes. 

Q.— She  was  seized  in  1886?    A.— Yes. 

Q. — Have  you  ever  seen  her  before  1886  or  in  the  year  1886? 
^°  A.— I  do  not  say  positively  as  to  1886,  but  1885  I  seen  her. 

Q. — Now  then,  from  your  knowledge  of  shipbuilding — 
which  we  have  already  got- -and  from  your  knowledge  of  the 
"Onward,"  did  you  Ifnow  her  age  about?  A. — No,  I  did  not 
know  exactly  what  her  age  was,  but  I  should  think  she  could 
not  be  a  very  old  vessel. 

Q. — From' your  knowledge  of  the  "Onward,"  can  you  say 
what  she  was  worth?    A.— Prom  f 4,325  to  15,000. 


lo 


859 

(A.    WiilHon— hiriTt   -CittuH.       W.    Wiilkcr— IMr«'«<— rioi«.) 

Q.— On  what  «lo  you  baw  your  vuluation?  A.— On  what 
voHHelR  cost. 

Q. — You  w«'re  HpfakinR  of  tho  vpwiel  wndy  for  wa  with 
hor  wallnfc  outfit  or  wlt>iout  rt?A.— Without  It. 

Q. — Ui'ady  for  wa  as  an  ordinary  Bchooner?    A. — Yes. 

Q. — With  anchorH  and  rhainH,  and  wtils  and  Htcm  boat? 
A.— Yen. 

<'roHfi(>xninination  by  Mr.  T^nnHtuK: 

Q.— How  do  you  hnich  that  valuation  of  f4,325?  A.— On 
th<>  basiH  of  |12S  a  ton. 

H. — 1125  rcKiBt(>r<Hl  tonnage?    A. — Yoh. 

Q. — Is  Jiiat  thf  i'08t  of  IniildiuK?  A.— Tluit  ia  tho  co»t, 
y«»B,  sir. 

Tlu'  <\»n)niiHHiont*r  on  the  part  of  tlif  United  States: — Do 
you  mean  tliut  flS't  a  ton  is  a  fair  valuation  for  a  now  vchhcI 
20  of  that  rhiHH? 

The  WitneHs: — Yoh.  nir.  I  cannot  be  positive  to  a  dollar, 
but  that  is  nearly  it. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Reg- 
istered tonnage? 

The  Witness:— Yes,  sir. 


30 


40 


Walter  Walker  was  recalled  as  a  witness  on  the  part  of 
Great  Itritain. 

Mr.  Peters: — 1  desire  the  evidence  of  this  witness  taken  in 
the  "Carolena"  and  ''Thornton"  cases  to  be  transferred  to  this 
case,  except  where  it  is  obviously  inapplicable,  also  the  cross- 
examination  and  reexamination. 

Direct  examination  bv  Mr.  Peters: 


50 


Q. — Were  you  acquainted  with  the  schooner  "Onward?" 
A. — I  knew  her  when  she  came  here  from  San  Francisco. 

Q. — ('an  you  tell  me  about  what  her  age  was?  A. — She 
came  here  about  1877  or  1878  probably.  I  heard  that  she  was 
probably  seven  years  old  when  she  came. 

Q. — Did  you  see  the  vessel  after  she  had  been  here?  A. — 
Yes,  sir.  several  times. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  when  it  was  yon  last  saw  her?  A. 
— I  saw  her  the  last  time — she  never  came  back — but  1  forget 
the  year. 

Q. — From  your  knowledge  of  ships  and  shipping  in  Vic- 
toria, will  yon  kindly  give  your  opinion  as  to  the  value  of 
the  "Onward"  in  1886,  or  about  that  time?  A.— About  the 
time  she  went  nwoy  and  never  came  back?  I  should  judge 
about  14,000. 

Q. — You  give  thai  as  her  value,  considering  age  and  every- 
thing else?  A.— Yes.  T  may  say  that  when  she  first  came 
60  here  she  was  a  centre  board,  and,  of  course,  not  so  valuable, 
but  they  changed  her,  and  put  In  a  good  keel  In  her,  and  that 
made  her  more  valuable. 

Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Dickinson: 

Q. — Did  you  ever  go  on  the  ship  in  an  official  capacity? 
A. — Not  In  an  official  capacity. 

Q. — Did  you  ever  e.xamine  the  "Onward?"  A. — Not  In  an 
official  capacity. 


,1 


li' 

I  i 


30 


50 


Kxft'pl     (;uiiig  oil 
A.— That  I  can 

.— I'lO- 


860 

iW.  Halkcr— Cross.) 

i). — Did  you  over  oxiiiuiiic  lu'i?       A.— 
board  I  did  not  work  on  Iut. 

Q. — Wlu'H  wiTc  you  on  board  of  her  hist? 
not  say. 

Q-— How  many  tinu's  wort'  yon  on  board  her? 
babiy  half  a  dozen  times. 

Q-— Were  you  on  board  lier  iialf  a  (h»zen  limes?       A.— I 
10   have  been  on  lioard  t»f  lier  iialf  a  dozen  times,  probably;  I 
would  not  say. 

Q.— Did  rem  go  on  all  (he  ships  in  this  harbour  half  a 
dozen  times  before  you  w«'re  apitointed  surveyor?  A. — I 
have  the  impression  that  I  misjht  have  dcme  some  work  oi\ 
board  her. 

Q- — Vou  have  done  a  good  deal  of  work  on  vessels?  A.— 
I  have  until  18«<4. 

^i- — And  having  done  work  on  a  great  many  vessels  you 
have  some  diHieulty  in  rememln'ring  what  vessels  vou  have 
20    been  on?      A.— Yes.  it  is  hard  for  nie  to  remember. 

Q- — You  are  positive  that  you  have  btM'n  on  her?  A. — 
Yes,  but  not  positive  that  I  was  on  her  tx)  do  work. 

Q- — What  would  you  do  on  the  "Onward"'  if  you  ever  were 
on  the  "Onward?"  A.— I  would  likely  look  around  her  and 
see  what  kind  •>(  a  ves.sel  she  was;  at  the  time  there  were  not 
ve?y  many  vessels  in  the  ]»orv.  and  the  merits  of  every  vessel 
were  discussed  as  she  came  in. 

Q. — You  do  not  remember  whether  it  was  in  1S7S,  188(».  or 
1H84  or  1SS5  you  were  on  the  "Onward?"  A.— No.  I  cannot 
say  exactly,  but  1  know  the  vessel  was  in  good  hands  and 
well  kept. 

Q. — Your  testimony  was  sonu'what  based  upon  the  fact 
that  slu'  was  in  good  hands?  A. — Yes,  they  did  not  own  any 
other  vessel  to  undertake  any  other  business.  1  believe. 

Q. — \Vhen  did  you  last  see  Mr.  ('o(»k.  Mr.     Sea.    and    Mi: 
Warner  and  Mr.  Turpel  together  outside  of  this  court  rooui? 
A. — I  have  not  seen  Mr.  Sea  pntbably  for  a  month  or  two  un- 
til  this  morning. 
40       Q. — Did  you  ever  see  them  together?      A. — No. 

Q.— ]S[eet  them  together?       A.— No. 

Q. — You  never  had  a  meeting  with  them?  A. — I  have  not 
been  to  see  Mr.  Cook. 

Q. — Have  you  been  to  see  Mr.  \Varner,  Mr.  Turpel  and  Mr. 
Watson?  A. — I  met  Mr.  Turpel,  and  Mr.  Warner,  they  came 
in  when  I  was  there. 

Q.— Where?      A.— I  met  them  at   Mr.  Rodwell's. 

Q. — Anywhere  4'lse  besidt'S  that?  A. — I  meet  Mr.  Turpel 
every  day. 

(J. — You  do  not  fix  your  valuation  upon  anything  else  be- 
sides your  pers(»nal  observation  of  tlu-  ship?      A. — No. 

Q.-^From  your  obsi-rvation  of  her  at  some  time  prior  to 
ISSfi  and  whetli^r  it  was  in  '7s,  '7!>  or  'SO.  or  <ip  to  '8.5,  you  can- 
not say?  A. — I  kn<'W  her  later  than  that  because  Captain 
McKay  was  a  personal  friend  of  mine. 

Q.— Later  than  what?      A.— Later  than  188;?. 

Q. — In  fixing  your  value  did  you  have  in  your  mind  the  cost 
of  building  such  a  ship?  A.— Not  altogether;  1  presume  that 
60   I  had  in  my  mind  the  changes  that  were  mi>.de  in  her. 

Q.  —And  the  cost  of  those  changes?  A. — The  cost  of  some 
of  tl'.'tse  changes,  of  c<nM'se.  I  also  kejtt  in  mind  that  the  ves- 
sel was  kept  in  vm-v  good  rejiair.  the  sails  and  rigging  were 
in  flrst-class  condition  because  Captain  McKay  would  not 
have  anything  else  on  board  her. 

Q. — Did  you  examin(>  her  sails  and  rigging,  or  do  yon  state 
that  front  your  belief  that  Captain  McKay  would  not  have 
anything  else  on  board  his  boat?  A. — I  have  seen  her  under 
sail,  bnt  I  did  not  criticallv  examine  her. 


20 


30 


86 1 

(\V.  Wiilkci-rrosH — IMsciiMwiou — Ki'dirccl.) 

Q. — You  c-anuot  siiy  wlu'llu-r  jcm  <'V(>r  hsiw  lior  siiils  iM'fore 
188(5.  Did  ,voii  «'v»'r  h«'('  tlu'iii  except  when  she  wan  under 
miil  iu  the  harbour?     A. — Xo,  sir. 

(J. — How  clom'  were  ,vou  to  tier?  A. — I  have  been  on 
board. 

Q. — How  chiHe  were  you  to  lier  when  you  saw  her  Hailt) 
and  8h'»  under  wiil?     A. — I  cannot  way  tliat. 
lO       Q. — Wt're  you  on  shore  and  slu'  on  swi?     A. — Very  likely, 
with  8ome  other  vessels. 

(i. — Yoti  testilied  as  to  her  sails  and  ri}iK'"K  from  your 
knowledjie  of  t'aptain  McKay's  taking  good  care  of  a  shiji? 
A.— Larg»'ly. 

The  Coniniissioner  <ui  the  part  of  the  United  States: — How 
much  do  you  estinuite  the  wear  and  tear  of  a  vessel  like  the 
"Onward"  for  an  eight  or  nine  months'  sealing  cruise? 

The  Witness: — I  would  not  allow  anything  except  as  re- 
gards rigging  and  that,  of  course,  niight  be  carried  away. 

The  Commossioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nittHl  States: — You 
have  never  computed  it? 

The  ^Vitness: — It  w(»uld  be  almost  impossible  to  compute 
it  because  it  would  depend  up<ni  accidents  or  things  of  that 
8«trt — in  the  ordinary  it  would  not  amount  to  anything  on 
this  coast. 

The  rommissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — What  is 
the  yearly  depreciation  on  a  v»'ssel? 

<}. — There  must  be  a  small  depreciation.  A  vessel  uji  to 
eiglit  or  nine  years  old,  she  d«'preciates  hardly  anything  if 
she  is  kept  in  thorough  repair,  hauled  up  every  jear,  and 
painted  and  her  hull  re-caulked.  She  might  be  in  better 
condition  than  when  built  because  iifter  vessels  are  built 
there  is  a  certain  amount  of  shrinkage,  and  (hey  will,  i)rob- 
ably,  not  be  in  as  good  a  comlition  as  they  will  be  two  or 
three  years  afterwards. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  par(  of  Her  Majes(y: — Does  this 
same  remark  apply  to  tlu'  decks? 

The  Witness;— The  decks  would  not  be  in  good  condition 
until  they  are  le caulked  threi'  or  four  years  after  building. 
I  say  up  to  eight  years  (he  vessel  will  not  dejtreciate  if  slie  is 
well  kt'pt.  bn(  (hat  does  not  apply  (o  (he  sails,  they  would 
have  to  be  renewed. 

50       The  ('(mimissioner  on  (he  jtart  of  Her  Majesty: — After  she 
had  passed  eight  or  nine  years,  what  then? 

The  Witness: — There  must  be  a  cei-tain  amount  of  depre- 
ciation every  year,  of  course  (he  owner  might  spend  more 
than  the  vessel  is  worth  on  her. 

The  ('ommissi(mer  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — I  mean  if 
the  vessel  is  kept  uj)  w<'H? 

The  Witness:— Oh,  well,  there  must  be  depreciation,  I  sup- 

60   jM)se,  of  probaldy  from   (en  (o  (wen(y  j»er  cent,  every  year. 

The  insurance  people  make  (he  owntTS  beai'  one  third,  after 

that  if  any  accident  has  occurred  by  going  ashore  or  anything 

of  that  sort. 

Ue-direct  examinalion  'csumed  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q._You  speak.  .Mr.  Walker,  of  a  vessel  not  depreciating 


40 


in 


uch  for  (hr  (irs(  eighl  or  nine  years,  and  (hen  you  say  that 


'in 


i^V 


I! 


'''t'f 


iiiiil 


Hi: 


'  ii'^: 


lO 


863 

(W.   Wulkei— lie  direct— Ke-iross.       C.   Spring— Direct.) 

after  that  she  would  decrease  by,  ten  or  twenty  per  cent.? 
A.— Yes. 

Q. — Suppose  she  decreases  twenty — beyond  that  at  the 
end  of  five  years  she  would  be  gone  altogether?  A. — 1  quali- 
fied that  by  stating  unless  the  planks  had  been  taken  out 
and  replaced. 

Q. — Can  you  tell  me  the  length  of  life  that  you  have  known 
this  class  of  schooner  actually  to  reach — 1  mean  some  of 
the  schooners  built  of  Douglas  fir?  A.— There  was  one  lost 
last  year  called  the  "Black  Diamond"  that  was  probably  25 
or  30  years  old. 

Q. — Have  you  ever  entered  into  the  matter  so  as  to  be  able 
to  give  us  the  per  centage,  and  what  would  be  the  annual 
depreciation  on  a  vessel?    A. — I  have  not. 

Q. — Have  you  ever  really  made  the  calculation?  A. — I 
never  made  the  calculation. 

Q. — So  that  j'our  statement  is,  to  a  certain  extent,  mere 
20  guess  work?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

^Q. — Now,  do  you  know,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  as  to  the  "Fa- 
vourite"? A. — Well,  I  think,  as  I  said  before  as  regards  the 
"Favourite,"  that  she  was  stripped  right  down  to  the  water's 
edge  .nnd  new  planking  put  in. 

Re-cross-examination  by  Mr.  Dickinson; 

Q. — Do  you  mean  to  say  that  you  testified  about  the  "Fa- 
vourite" before?  A. — I  was  asked  in  cross-examination  by 
yourself,  Mr.  Dickinson,  if  I  knew  what  the  "Favourite**  was 
sold  for,  and  I  think  I  said  that  it  would  depend  largely  upon 
whether  it  was  before  or  after  the  repairs.  I  know  I  made 
that  remark. 

Q. — Might  you  not  have  talked  with  some  one  else  about  it 
and  got  the  idea  as  to  testifying  as  to  the  value  of  the  "Fa- 
vourite"?   A. — No.  sir,  it  is  right  in  my  memory. 

Mr.  Peters: — Before  beginning  the  examination  of  Mr. 
Spring  in  this  case  I  want  to  put  in  evidence  all  the  corres- 
pondence-—diplomatic  correspondence — referred  to  in  the 
40  case  of  the  "Carolena"  from  pages  5.3  to  70,  which  is  the  whole 
of  it  from  the  words  "Having  read  the  pari  of  the  record 
that  I  deem  material"  on  page  53,  to  Mr.  Dickinson's  remark 
on  page  70,  "We  accept  It  ns  authentic."  Also  the  chart  re- 
ferred to  at  page  70,  also  the  letters  contained  in  the  record 
of  the  "Carolena"  case  at  page  81,  marked  15  and  16.  and  a 
letter  on  page  82  marked  17. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — With  the  same  objoctions  that  appear  on 
the  record.    The  conditions  under  which  they  went  in,  will 
5^  appear  h»re  also. 

Mr,  Peters: — I  shall  later  on  give  a  statement  specifically 
of  the  witnesses  in  the  "Carolena"  case  that  I  want  to  put  in, 
but  this  is  sufficient  now  or  the  present  purpose. 


30 


60       rhnrlcs  Spring  was  called  as  a  witness  on  the  part  of  Great 
Britain  and  duly  sworn. 

Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q. — Mr.  Spring,  where  do  you  reside?  A. — At  present  at 
Kvuquot. 

"(i.--In  18R6  you  fitted  out  the  schooner  "Onward"  for  a 
eealing  voyage,  1  believe?    A. — Yes,  sir. 


f  -  ? 


'm 


'fi 


863 


'iir  on 
will 


Oreat 

lit  at 
or    a 


10 


(C.  Spring — Direct.) 

Q. — At  that  time  were  you  interested  in  any,  and  liow 
many,  trading  stations  on  the  west  coast  of  Vancouver 
Island?  A.— Dodge's  Cove,  T'knlet,  Ilesquiot,  Nootka  and 
Clayoquot. 

Q. — In  1886  yon  fitted  out  the  schooner  "Onward"  for  the 
purpuse  of  sealing?    A. — Yes. 

Q. — In  the  first  place  what  condition  was  that  vessel  in  as 
regards  repair  at  the  time  of  sale?  A. — At  that  time  she 
was  in  very  good  order — first  rate. 

Q. — With  regard  to  the  sails  for  instance,  were  they  new 
or  old?    A. — Brand  new  that  season. 

Q. — They  were  a  complete  new  set?  A. — A  complete  new 
set. 

Q. — You  started  out  for  a  sealing  voyage  in  what  month; 
do  you  remember?    A. — March,  I  think  it  was. 
Q. — And  she  had  on  board  canoes  and  boats?    A. — Canoes. 
Q. — How  many  canoes?    A. — I  think  eight     or    nine,     I 
20  w^ould  not  be  positively  sure. 

Q. — Were  these  canoes  owned  by  yon,  or  were  they  owned 
by  the  Indians?  A. — Partly  by  myself  and  partly  by  the  In- 
diiins. 

Q. — When  you  say  "partly  by  yourself,"  what  do  you  mean? 
A. — I  had  a  lieu  on  them  as  it  were,  T  made  an  adv.nnce  on 
them. 

Q. — Rut  you  w<'re  not  the  absolute  owner  of  the  canoes — 
they  partly  belonged  <o  you  and  partly  to  the  Indians?  A. — 
Yes.  sir. 
30  Q. — I  believe  you  have  not  got  an  exact  statement  of  the 
amount  of  the  advance  so  as  to  give  particulars,  but  that  is 
the  way  it  stood,  the  canoes  parth'  belonged  to  you,  and  partly 
to  the  Indians? 

Q. — The  vessel  was  fitted Had  she  any  boats?      A. — 

One,  the  stern  boat. 

Q. — Now,  I  am  going  to  ask  you  first  with  reference  to  tlu-se 
canoes,  there  was  a  claim  put  in  at  Ottawa  by  Captain  War- 
ren. Were  you  there  when  that  claim  was  put  in?  A. — No, 
sir. 

Q. — I  want  you  to  tell  the  court  in  your  opinion  what  the 
fair  value  of  these  canoes  on  board  the  ship  was?  A. — A  fair 
value  with  everything  indnded,  the  canoes,  the  paddles,  at 
that  time  the  bladders  that  they  used  as  a  kind  of  chafing 
gear  to  protect  the  canoes  from  the  side  of  the  vessel,  the 
sails,  spare  paddles  and  spears,  I  would  say  f25  each— f25 
or  f2S — anywliere  in  that  neighborhood. 

Q. — You  are  now  speaking  of  tlie  canoes  you  had  on  board 
the  vessel  and  for  that  vessel  only?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Now  at  Ihis  j)oint  I  will  ask  you  wliat  value  did  you 
put  on  the  vessfl  as  she  was,  prepared  for  sea,  outside  of  the 
sealing  outfit?  I  want  your  opinion  of  her  honest  value  at 
that  time.  A. — I  put  her  down  at  f4,0()0,  considering  that 
she  was  worth  every  bit  of  that  to  me  at  that  special  time; 
at  that  time  I  considered  that  T  got  her  at  a  very  low  figure, 
being  the  beginning  of  the  sealing  business  practically  in 
Behring  Sea.  Everything  looked  bright  ahead  of  us  at  that 
time. 

Q.— At  any  time  during  the  8«ason  of  1886  would  you  have 
sold  her  for"  that  sum?      A.— Decidedly  not. 

Q. — Now  you  have  described  that  this  vessel  was  started 
on  her  sealing  voyage  some  time  in  April.  She  had  on  board 
a  large  iiuantity  of  i»rovi»ions,  I  believe?  A. — March,  I  think 
It  was. 

Q._Were  all  (hese  provisions  intended  for  the  sealing  trip? 
A. — No,  sir. 


40 


50 


60 


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I'M: 

■!.  i  'I 


I'lNii: 


II: 


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3« 


864 

^C  tS|)i-iiig — Diii'fl.) 

y. — A  part  were  for  wbtit?  A. — A  puit  were  for  uijuelf, 
other  8cliooner8,  aud  (he  HtaitioUH  ou  the  coust — ditt'ereut  8ta- 
thjuB  on  this  coast — she  wan  loaded  dowu.. 

y.— Have  3011  Any  iiieaiiH,  b^  .voiir  books  or  otherwise,  of 
showing  exactly  what  part  wns  intended  for  one  purpose,  and 
what  imrt  for  anotiier?  A.— In  some  cases  I  can  show  it 
very  clearly,  and  in  olJier  cases  ii  is  doubtful, 
io  *i- — After  leaving;  X'idoria  in  Alarch  did  she  come  back  be- 
fore starting  on  the  IJehring  ISea  trip,  i»;  where  did  you  go? 
Where  did  she  go  to  to  fit  out  finally  for  the  liehring  Sea? 
A.— She  finally  left  for  the  Behring  S«'a  from  a  port  called 
Kyu(|uot. 

Q.— Had  she  been  back  to  Victoria  in  the  meantime  for  the 
purpose  of  refitting?      A. — No. 

Q. — As  a  matter  of  fact  did  you  go  yourself  to  Kyuquot  for 
the  purpose  of  superintending  her  final  outfitting  for  Uehring 
Sea?  A.— I  did. 
^^  Q- — Vou  had  another  vessel  fitted  out  at  the  same  time? 
A. — Tlie  schooner  "Favourite"  and  the  "Onward."  I  was 
anxious  to  see  them  off  so  1  could  come  back  to  Victoria. 

Q. — And  you  went  up  to  Kyuquot  for  that  purpose?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — As  a  matter  of  fact  did  you  stay  rliere  until  the  two  ves- 
sels had  sailed?     A. — I  saw  th»'m  all  off. 

(i. — Did  you,  or  did  yoti  not,  give  your  captain  any  instruc- 
tions as  to  the  length  of  time  he  .should  stay  in  Kehring  Sea? 
.V. — Yes, 

Q. — Will  you  be  kind  enough  to  tell  me  what  the  instruc- 
tions were?  A. — The  instructions  were  to  the  effect  that  he 
should  proceed  to  Itchring  S«>a  and  continue  there  as  long  as 
]K)ssible,  and  to  be  back  some  time  in  the  month  of  Septem- 
ber at  any  rate,  to  he  guided  in  a  measure  by  Captain  Mc- 
Lean— on  the  schooner  "Favourite"  at  that  time — they  had 
agreed  to  meet  in  Beliring  Sea. 

Q. — This  would  be  which  McLean?  A. — Captain  Alexand- 
er McLean,  who  was  then  master  of  the  "Favourite"  in  18S(». 
40  Q. — For  what  length  of  time  did  you  provision  the  vessel? 
That  is  when  you  were  at  Kyuquot?  .\. — Well  they  had 
instructions  to  take  everything  required  to  enable  the  vessel 
to  get  back  into  port,  in  Victoiia,  some  tinu-  in  September. 

Q. — Some  time  in  September?  A. — About  the  middle, 
the  10th.  or  L^tb.  about  that  time. 

Q. — Now.  you  are  not  in  a  position,  I  believe,  to  tell  me 
the  exact  amount  of  provisions  that  went  on  board  that  ves- 
sel?      A.— No. 

Q. — Can  you  generally  tell  me  what  the  provisions  consist- 
ed of?      \. — Yes. 

(i.— Of  what  did  they?  .\.— Flour,  pilot  bread,  beans, 
rice.  tea.  coffee,  sugar,  ba<'<m,  lard  and  potatoes. 

Q. — l>id  they  have  any  meats?       .\. — Yes. 

(i.— What  kind?      A.— Corned  beef  and  pork. 

Q. — In  those  days  weie  tlicre  any  canned  goods?  A. — 
Some  canned  g<M)ds.  too. 

Q. — What  sort  of  canned  goods  did  you  have?     A. — Milk 
and  |)eaches. 
60       (}. — Would  you  have  (.iniied  fish?      .V. — Ye.i.  canned  fish. 

H. — Canned  salmon.   1   presume?       \. — Yes. 

Q. — In  thos«'  days  was  it  your  custom  to  feed  tlu'  Indians 
on  much  meat?  .\. — It  was  not  the  general  custom  to  do 
so;  in  some  cases  it  was  given — what  ha)>pened  to  be  on 
hand.  ' "  i 

Mr.  Teters: — I  have  not  got  all  the  vouchers,  but  I  will  go 
(lirough  what   I  have. 


50 


865 

(< 'liiirlfs  Sjn-iiig — Din'ct.) 

The  Witness: — The  final  outfit  at  Kyuquot  does  not  ap- 
pear, so  I  am  positively  sure  that  it  did  not  call  for  anything 
tliat  was  put  on  board,  but  it  would  not  amount  to  a  large 
sum  in  any  case. 

Mr.  Diekinson : — I  did  not  know  but  that  when  you  unload- 
ed at  the  trading  statiim  you  would  take  an  inventory. 

'°  The  Witness: — That  is  usually  the  case,  but  in  some  cases 
not.  Since  that  time  I  have  had  a  good  deal  of  knocking 
about  and  the  papers  liave  got  mislaid. 

Q. — As  a  matter  of  fact,  have  you  ever  made  a  calculation 
as  to  what  it  would  cost  per  man  to  pi-ovision  a  vessel  for 
the  northern  voyage — that  is  for  four  or  five  montlis.  Have 
j'ou  ever  made  a  calculation  as  to  what  it  would  cost  per 
month?      A. — I  have  not;  I  should  think  about  If). 

Q. — You  are  counting  now  Indians?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  white  men?  A. — White  men!  I  don't  know, 
20  I  never  made  any  calculation,  or  attemi)ted  to  make  any.  I 
was  interested  only  one  seas(m. 

Q. — Xow  in  addition  to  the  provisions  which  were  put  on 
boai'd — which  you  instructed  to  be  put  on  board — for  a  cer- 
tain length  of  voyage,  you  had  on  board  some  guns?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  what  was  the  number?  A. — Some  ten  or  twelve 
I  am  not  sure. 

Q. — Now,  Mr.  Spring,  will  you  tell  the  court,  were  those 
an  expensive  class  of  gun,  or  were  they  not?  A. — No,  they 
}0  ^pre  an  old  low  grade  gun. 

Q.  - -Breech-loaders?  A. — Tn  some  cases,  in  other  cases 
they  were  the  muzzle  loaders,  but  for  this,  with  reference  to 
the  muzzle-loading  guns  they  were  good  guns  of  that  class. 

Q. — What  did  you  value  the  guns  each  at?  A. — Take  them 
all  around,  |25  would  not  be  too  much. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  might  just  state  in  this  connection  for  the 

information  of  the  Court,  that,  in  the  information  laid  by 

Captain  Warren  at  Ottawa,  when  this  gentleman  was  not 

40  there,  he  put  them  in  at  four,  as  a  matter  of  fact  there  were 

twelve. 

Q. — You  say  12  guns,  and  the  inventory  shows  12,  and  they 
were  worth  |2.5  each?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Had  they  ammunition?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — In  sending  out  an  Indian  crew  do  you  put  as  much 
ammunition  aboard  as  you  would  for  a  white  crew?  A. — 
Not  near  as  much. 

Q. — Do  you  happen  to  know  what  quantity?  A. — Yes, 
50  about  two  kegs  of  powder. 

Q. — That  was  50  pounds,  was  it?  A. — That  was  50  pounds 
and  about. 

Q. — You  said  you  had  a  certain  quantity  of  ammunition, 
only  about  50  ]>ounds — two  kegs — did  you  have  a  corresjwnd- 
ing  quantity  of  shot?  A. — Oh,  a  greater  quantity  of  shot 
than  50  |)ounds. 

Q. — A  corresponding  quantity,  about  200  pounds?  A. — 
About  200  pounds. 

Q. — I  believe  the  powder  you  supplied  the  Indians  with 
60  was  cheap  powder?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Costing  about  what?  A. — About  SOc.  or  40c.  a 
pound. 

Q. — Now  I  want  you  to  lo(»k  at  that  inventory;  we  will  go 
through  it  quickly.  (Handing  the  witness  the  inventory.) 
This  is  the  inventory  taken  by  the  offl<'er  of  the  cutter,  dated 
August  15th,  1880,  received  and  marked  for  identification 
"Kxhibit  No.  R2,  Claim  No.  .^."  I  am  getting  out  this  list 
with  the  object  of  ascertaining  how  much  of  these  articles 

95 


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866 

(Cbarles  Bpiiiij?— Direct.) 

you  nllege  come  within  tlie  value  of  the  ship,  and  what  are 
extras  and  do  not  belong  to  the  valuation  of  tlie  vessel. 
Tliree  anchors,  do  they  belonR  to  the  vessel?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — One  adze,  two  axes — that  is  extra?      A. — Yes. 

(J. — What  are  thev  worth?      A. — The  adzes  |1,  the  axes 
12.5'. 

Cj. — Two  belts  (life),  are  they  extra  or  do  they  belong  to 
the  ship?  A. — That  would  be  i)artly  extra  and  partly  ship. 

Q.— Two  blocks,  tackle  12  feet?'     A.— That  is  ship. 

Q. — One  brace  and  bit?    A. — That  is  extra. 

Q.— What  value?      A.— fl. 

Q. — One  binnacle  light — that  i«  ship?       A. — Yes. 

Q. — One  broom,  corn,  that  is  extra?      A. — ^Yes. 

Q.— What  is  that  worth?      A.— 50c. 

Q. — Chronometer  (good) — Do  you  include    that    with    the 
ship?      A. — That  is  extra. 

Q. — What  do  you  value  it  at?    A.-|lflO;  in  that  case  the 
20  chronometer  was  returned  some  two  years  later  with  some 
expenses  attached  to  it. 

Q. — Four  compasses — were  they  extra?       A. — Yes. 

Q. — What  were  they  for?  A. — For  the  use  of  the  canoes; 
boat  compasses. 

Q.— Their  value?      A.— fl2;  *3  apiece, 

Q.— Cables— that  is  ship?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — Fourteen  water  casks — are  they  extra  or  ship?  A. — 
Extra. 

Q._Worth  what?      A.~f1.25  each. 

Q. — Then  there  is  a  hali  ion  of  coal,  what  is  that  worth? 
A.— 14. 

Q. — One  clock — is  that  extra?      A. — That  is  extra. 

Q.— What  is  that  worth?      A.— f5. 

Q. — One  chart.  Pacific  Ocean?    A. — That  is  extra. 

Q.— Value  what?      A.— $5. 

Q. — One  coffee  mill — what  is  that  worth?      A. — $1. 

Q. — One  flag — does  that  go  with  the  ship?  A. — That 
woiild  be  extra. 

Q._Value  what?       A.— ft2. 

Q. — House  flag?      A.— About  flO. 

Q. — One  fog  horn — what  is  that  worth?       A. — $1. 

Q. — That  was  not  a  patent  fog  horn?  A. — Oh,  that  would 
be  worth  |I25. 

Q. — When  you  sav  "fog  horn,"  is  it  a  patent  arrangement? 
A — Yes.  T  was  thinlvincr  of  the  short  mouth  fog  horn.  In 
this  case  she  was  fitted  with  a  patent  one. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  T^nited  States: — Is 
50   ""t  th'>t  n  horn  that  the  statute  reouires;  is  that  an  extra 
connected  with  sealing;  is  it  not  a  statutory  horn? 

The  witness; — One  required  for  sealing. 

Direct  examination  continued  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q.— One  funnel?      A.— fl. 

Q. — Four  globes,  lantern?      A. — fl  for  the  four. 

Q.— Two  hammers?    A.— 12. 

Q. — Hamborline,  one  pound?      A. — 25c. 

Q. — Three  faUioms  of  hemp  rope,  2}in.?    A. — Market  value 


30 


40 


60 


f4. 

Q. — One  dozen  knife  sheaths?      A. — fS. 

Q.— One  kettle?      A.— 50c. 

Q. — Two  swinging  lamps?      A. — fS  for  the  two. 

Q. — Now  there  is  175  fathoms  Manila,  .SJin.,  new,  good — 
what  is  that  worth?  A. — That  wonid  come  by  the  pound — 
I  sliniild  tliink  about  20c. 

Q. — Yon  do  not  know  how  many  pounds  there  would  be? 
A,— No;  that  can  be  arrived  at  later  on, 


20 


30 


86; 

(i.'liaik'H  8piiug— Diit'ct.) 

Q.— Dilto,  old,  tiiir— what  would  that  be  worth?      A.— 15. 
Q. — Tlu'ii  then-  is  a  package  of  nails,  whatever  they  were. 
Oo  you  know  what  Ihey  wt^re?      A.— No;  ordinary  nails,  I 
should  think. 

Q.— Kerosene  oil— wh:it  is  thnt  wortl?      You  have  it  |2: 
is  that  right?      A.— That  is  right, 
(i.— Two  gallons  of  paint  oil— you  have  that  |2.50.    Is  that 
lO    right?      A.— That  is  right. 

Q.— 25  lbs.  oxide  iron— is  that  right,  f2?      A.— That  ia 
right. 
Q.— Two  oars,  10  ft.,  |2.5()— is  that  right  ?A.— That  is  right. 
Q. — Does  the  copper  pump  belong  to  the  ship?      A. — That 
is  extra. 

Q. — What  is  that  pump?  A.— It  is  a  pump  they  put  in  bar- 
rels in  order  to  draw  water  from  the  casks. 
Q.— That  does  not  belong  to  the  ship.      You  value  that  at 

what?      A <15. 

Q.— 25  lbs.  paint  (black),  |2.50— is  that  right?  A.— Yes, 
sir. 

Q.— One  pitcher,  water,  fl — is  that  right?  A. — That  is 
right. 

Q. — One  plane  (jack),  |1 — is  that  right?  A. — That  is  right. 
Q. — One  hand  plane,  *1 — is  that  right?      A. — That  is  right. 
Q. — Palms  (sewing),  50c.?      A. — That  is  right. 
Q. — Two  pans,  baking,  |1?      A. — That  is  right. 
Q. — Eighteen  paddles  at  75c.  each — is  that  right? 
Mr.  Warren: — These  were  included  in  the  value  of  the 
canoes. 

Mr.  Peters: — That  is  so. 

Direct  examination  continued  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q. — Then  you  had  a  patent  log — did  you  include  that  in 
the  value  of  the  vessel?      A. — That  is  extra. 

Q.— What  is  that  worth?       A.— f20. 

Q. — Now,  turning  to  the  other  side — two  boat  falls  on  after 
davits — those  are  ship?      A. — Y'es. 

Q. — Four  hundred  seal  skins — you  claim  what  for  them? 
A. — f7.50  apiece. 

Q. — How  do  you  base  that?  A.- On  the  price  seal  were 
at  that  time  in  Victoria. 

Q. — As  a  matter  of  fact,  in  the  claim  put  in  originally  it 
was  put  in  at  f7.  Since  tliat  time  yon  have  ascertained  that 
there  were  sales  and  that  |7.50  was  paid?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Two  saucepans — what  is  tlie  value  of  them?      A. — 11. 

Q. — Three  tons  of  salt — what  is  the  price  of  salt  by  the 
50   ton?      Did  you  ascertain  that  by  looking  at  the  bills?    A. — 
Yes,  sir;  I  think  so. 

Q. — f  14.50  per  ton,  was  it  not?      A. — That  is  right. 

Q. — Then  you  have  got  one  mainsail,  one  foresail,  one  jib, 
one  staysail  and  flying  jib.  Three  stoves— are  they  extra? 
A. — One  extra. 

Q.— Valued  at  what?      A.— 18. 

Q. — Four  saws — value  what?  A. — f8. 

Q. — One  screw  clamp — what  is  that  worth?      A. — 15. 

Q. — One  marlin  spilie?      A. — fl. 
60        Q. — You  say  that  that  is  not  a  part  of  the  ship?      A. — No, 
it  is  not  a  part  of  the  ship;  it  is  extra. 

Q.— Three  stools,  |il.50— is  that  right?  A.— That  is  ex- 
tra. 

Q. — One  saw  set,  ?1 — is  that  right?      A. — That  is  right. 

Q. — One  scraper,  f  1 — is  that  right?      A. — That  is  right. 

Q. — One  shovel,  |1— is  that  right?      A. — That  is  extra. 

Q. — Two  iron  lanks.  |41 — is  that  the  actual  price  you  gave 
for  them?      A. — It  is, 


40 


m 


■■■; 

V 

1:1 

drN. 


''t'ill 


ii  |M: 


10 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


•     868 

(<  'Im  rk's  HpriiiK— J-)ii-t'ft.) 

Q. — Are  tbey  extra,  or  do  they  belong  to  the  ship?  A. — 
Extra. 

<i.— What  are  they  for?      A.— To  hold  drinking  water. 

Q. — Are  they  kept  on  deek  or  below?      A. — Below. 

y. — Are  they  Bpeeially  made  for  the  Healing  busiuess?  A. 
— Yes.  sir. 

Q.— Thiit  is  the  aelual  eost  of  the  two?      A — Actual  cost. 

Q.— I  believt?  that  by  the  claim  put  in  by  Captain  Warren 
there  were  three  charged?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

(J. — As  a  matter  of  fa*-^,  were  there  three  or  two?  A. — ■ 
Only  two. 

Q. — One  watcli  tackle — do  you  consider  that  part  of  the 
ship?      A. — Y^es,  sir. 

Q. — One  boom  tackle — do  yon  consider  that  part  of  the 
fcihip?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Tackle,  boats,  for  hoisting— That  is  part  of  the  ship? 
A.— Yes. 

Q.— 25  lbs.  white  lead.  «2..'i(>— is  that  right?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

(J — One  monkey  wren(;h,  fl  ?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Were  there  other  artii^les  on  the  ship  besides  what  I 
have  mentioned  that  you  can  recall  to  mind?  A. — Yes,  there 
v.'ere  certainly  quite  a  nnraber  of  other  articles  on  board  the 
hhip. 

Q. — Had  you  not  a  barometer  on  board?      A. — Y'es. 

Q.— What  is  that  worth?      A.— fl5. 

Q. — Were  there  any  other  articles  that  you  had  on  board 
that  you  can  recall  to  mind?  A. — I  do  not  see  any  mention 
here  of  beef  and  pork — not  mentioned  liere  at  all. 

Q. — As  a  matter  of  fact,  I  have  a  schedule  of  provisions 
alleged  to  have  been  taken  from  her  which  I  have  not  yet 
read,  containing  reference  to  bread,  flour,  molasses,  beans 
and  lard.  Y'our  remark  is  that  you  do  not  see  any  beef  or 
pork  mentioned.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  was  there  beef  and 
pork  on  board  the  vessel  when  she  sailed  from  Kyuquot?  A. 
— There  was;  she  certainly  had,  I  am  positive. 

Q. — A  considerable  quantity  or  a  small  quantity?  A. — A 
good,  fair  quantity. 

Q. — Can  you  give  me  any  idea  in  barrels  how  much  beef 
she  had,  for  instance?  A. — Tliere  would  not  be  less  than 
three  barrels  of  bei'f. 

Q. — How  much  pork?      A. — Two  barrels  of  pork. 

Q. — Any  ham?  A. — No  ham;  there  was  bacon.  The  orig- 
inal records  have  been  lost  of  that  load.  The  goods  were 
jmt  aboard,  but  tliere  is  no  trace  of  them  to  be  found. 

Q. — Now.  of  course,  you  never  saw  the  vessel  afterwards? 
A.— No. 

Q. — That  was  the  last  von  saw  of  her?  A. — That  was  the 
last. 

Q. — Will  you  kindly  tell  me  who  her  captain  was?  A. — 
Captain  Daniel  Monro. 

Q. — Is  he  dead  or  alive?       A. — Dead. 

O. — Who  was  the  mate?      A. — John  Marketich. 

Q. — Can  you  tell  me  the  names  of  any  otlier  members  of 
1Ii«>  crew?  A. — Walter  Nightingale  and  Michael  Harkins; 
1ho«e  names  comprise  the  white  crew. 

Q. — Aficliael  Harkins  I  believe  you  have  here?  A. — We 
have  him  here. 

Q. — And  Nitfhtingale — do  you  know  anything  about  where 
he  is?  A. — He  is  an  able  seaman,  but  1  do  not  know  where 
he  is  now. 

Q. — Ts  he  in  Victoria?      A. — No. 

(}. — Is  lie  on  this  continent,  so  far  as  vou  are  aware  of? 
A. — Not  that  I  know  of. 

Q. — He  never  was  in  vour  employ  before  or  since^  Ai"" 
Never  since. 


869 

(Cliarlt'8  Sprinp— Direct.) 

Q.— What  did  yo»  iutt'iid  to  do  witli  tlu-  vohhc'I  in  1887  if 
3'ou  had  had  hort  A.— I  certainly  would  have  sent  her  off 
sealing  to  Behring  Bea  and  on  the  coast. 

Q.— You  owned  another  vesHel  in  188«,  the  "Favourite"' 
A. — Yes. 

Q.— As  a  matter  of  fact,  did  you  continue  sealing  with  the 
"Favourite"  in  1887?      A.— I  did. 
lO       Q— r>id  you  make  any  sales  in  1887?      A.— Yes. 

Q— Will  you  kindly  tell  me  what  price  you  obtained  for 
them— I  mean  the  Behring  Sea  catcli?  A.— 17,  I  think  it 
was — 17  or  |7.30,  I  would  not  be  sure  which. 

Q.~Who  did  you  sell  them  to?  A.— According  to  the 
books— I  think  they  would  show — the  late  Morris  Moss 
bought  them. 

Q. — And  that  can  be  shown  by  your  books,  and  I  will  ex- 
amine you  about  that  later  on?    A. — Yes. 

Q. — Now  did  you  get  any  notice  from  the  American  author- 
20   ities  at  Sitka  in  reference  to  your  ship — giving  her  up.    Did 
you  get  any  letter?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Or  from  any  person?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  get  any  letters  from  Captain  Monro?  A. — 
Yes,  several. 

Q. — Have  you  got  them  here?      A. — No,  I  have  not. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  would  like  to  ask  at  tliis  stage  whether  my 
learned  friend  ia  in  a  position  to  produce  the  log  of  the  "On- 
ward?" 

^         Mr.  Dickinson: — I  do  not  think  we  have  the  log. 
Direct  examination  continued  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q. — Will  you  tell  me  about  how  long  you  calculate  it  yould 
take  a  vessel  to  go  from  Behring  Sea  to  Victoria — the  "On- 
ward?" A. — Well,  everything  favttrahle,  it  wouh'  lake  on 
an  average  from  twelve  to  fourteen  days. 

Q. — That  is  what  you  calculate  on?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — You  said  that  tlie  vessel  would  have  been  back  about 
40  the  middle  of  September?  A. — Soniewh«'re  about  that  time; 
that  is,  she  was  provisioned  for  that. 

Q. — Did  you  give  any  instructions  as  to  when  she  should 
actimlly  leave  Behring  Sea?  A. — The  instructions  that  I 
gave — 

The  (.Commissioner  on    the    part    of  the  United  States: — 

Should  not  you  confine  yourself  to  the  conversation?       If 

there  is  any  part  of  the  conversation  that  is  omitted,  that, 

according  to  the  proper  practice,  vou  might  call  his  attention 

50  to. 

Q. — Did  you,  or  did  yon  not.  give  any  actual  instructions 
as  to  when  they  should  leave  Behnng  S«'a?      A. — No. 

Q. — You  provisioned  them  up  to  wliat  date?  A. — To  ar- 
rive here  about  the  middle  of  September;  to  carry  them  to 
the  middle  of  September. 

Q. — There  are  some  other  items  in  connection  with  your 
claim.  Was  the  vessel  insured  when  she  went  ou(?    A. — Y^'S. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  what  ccmipany?  A. — I  think  it 
60  was  the  California  Company;  I  do  not  positively  remember 
the  name  of  the  concern. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  the  amount  you  had  paid  for  insur- 
ance?     A. — f240,  there  is  a  voucher  that  will  show  for  it. 

Q. — Just  examine  the  voucher  for  insurance  and  tell  me 
how  much  you  paid?  A. — On  examination  I  paid  f260,  and 
got  a  refund  of  |20. 

Q. — So  that  your  payment  was  |240?      A.— |i240. 

Q. — -What  was  the  insurance  on?      A. — It  was  on  the  hull. 


m 


i\ 


!! 

'i 

! 

■'  '§ 

1 

i 

'fc 

■      4 

■ 

III 

■ill  ri 


? 


.1  , 


III 


!!;i 


10 


20 


870 

(rhnrh's  Rpiinjj— Dirort.) 

The  r'oiniiiiHHioiKT  on  tin-  piir(  of  Tier  MnjcHt.v: — Do  you 
know  the  rutcH. 

The  Witnt'HH: — No.  I  <'oul(l  not  nay  jiiHt  now  with  rffewnce 
to  the  rate;  it  in  in  the  jiolirv. 

Direct  exiuninution  «-ontinne(l  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q. — Have  you  got  tlic  |ioli<y?      A. — Xo,  sir,  I  have  not. 

Q. — Did  you  insure  the  cateh  beHideH  insuring  the  hull? 
A. — .lust  tlie  hull  alone. 

Q. — You  did  not  insure  the  cateh?  A. — The  hull  and  out- 
fit. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — It 
would  oblige  me  if  you  would  ask  him  what  would  be  a  fair 
rate  on  the  catch. 

Direct  examination  continued  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q. — Do  you  know  what  a  fair  rate  of  insurance  on  the 
catch  would  be?      A. — I  could  not  say.      No,  not  just  now. 
Q. — You  can  ascertain  that?      A. — By  making  reference. 
Mr.  Peters: — I  will  be  able  to  prove  it  by  Mr.  Hall. 

Direct  examiu.'itiou  continued  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q. — Did  you  have  to  pay  any  expenses  in  connection  with 
getting  the  captain  and  crew  to  Sitka?      A. — Yes. 

y. — Tell  me  wlmt  they  wei-e:  vouchers  2  and  3  1  have  here 

show  you  paid  for  "Indians  to  Hitka.for  D.  Monro,  fa."  and 

3     "the  passage  of  D.  Monro  to  Sitka,"  and  "the  passage  of  the 

Indians  to  Nanaimo."      A. — There  is  not  a  voucher  of  that. 

y. — Did  you  pay  them  anything?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Did  you  pay  the  passage  of  Captain  Monro  fi-om  Sit- 
ka?     A.— Yes. 

Q. — By  what  ship?  A. — The  "Idaho,"  1  gave  it  to  Monro 
myself  so  that  he  would  attend  to  it  personally. 

Q. — How  much  did  you  give  him?  A. — I  think  it  was 
f50. 

Q. — Did  you  pay  the  passage  of  the  Indians  from  Nanaimo 
to  Victoria?      A. — Yes,  they  have  all  been  paid. 

Q. — You   have  it  charged  here  at  f25?       A. — Yes. 

Q. — I  find  as  a  matter  of  fact  that  Indians  wei-e  landed 
from  one  of  the  cutters  at  Nanaimo;  that  is  a  fact,  is  it  not? 
A. — That  is  right. 

Q. — Now,  in  addition  to  that,  have  you  yourself  gone  to 
any  trouble  and  expense  about  the  matter  personally?  A. — 
Yes,  I  have  been  to  a  great  deal  of  trouble. 

Q. — Did  you  have  much  correspondence?  A. — Yes,  corre- 
50  spondence  with  different  people  in  connection  with  the  mat- 
ter, both  at  Ottawa  and  Sitka;  different  officials  up  there. 

Q. — I  see  put  down  "Personal  expenses  in  connection  with 
this  matter,  f.^OO,"  then  above  in  tlie  same  connection  f250 — 
that  is  the  t;hargf  you  make  for  that,  is  it?  A. — That  is  the 
cliarge  I  make. 

Q. — Now.  were  you  put  to  any  legal  expense  at  Sitka,  or 
was  there  a  charge  made  against  you?  A. — There  was  a 
charge. 

Q. — Wliat  was  the  amount  of  the  charge?      A. — f'lOO. 

Q. — Did  jour  captain  draw  on  you  for  it?  A. — No,  he  did 
not. 

Q. — Did  you  actually  jmy  it?  A. — It  is  not  actually  paid, 
but  it  will  have  to  be. 

Q. — Were  you  sued  for  it.  and  judgment  obtained  against 
you?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — 1)«)  you  know  how  you  were  summoned  to  appear? 
.\. — I  think  It  must  liave  been  sent  down  to  me;  I  really  do 
not  remember  now. 


40 


60 


^ 


10 


30 


871 

((Jlini-I«'H  Hpriiif; — Direct.) 

Q. — That  was  the  charge  ho  innde  agninst  you?  A. — Yea, 
sir. 

Q. — 80  .von  have  iu»t  paid  it  .vet?    A. — Sot  yet. 

Q. — AUo  did  you  make  any  arrangement  with  Mr.  Belyea 
aa  to  paying  him  any  eum?  I  see  there  are  |75U  charged 
here  for  him.  Had  you  any  arrangement  witli  liim  then? 
A. — Yes,  1  had  a  private  arrangement  witli  liim  then. 

Q. — That  was  made  when?  A. — In  tlie  beginning,  and 
later  on  again. 

Q. — I  want  the  arrangement  made  in  the  beginning?  A. — 
I  understood  it  to  be  flOOO  in  each  case. 

Q. — What  services  was  that  for?  A. — Legal  services  in 
every  form.  I  toolc  it  to  be. 

Q. — At  the  time  that  arrangement  was  made,  had  you  any 
idea  of  a  proceeding  of  this  kind?      A. — None,  whatever. 

Q. — At  that  time  tlien*  was  no  question  of  proceeding  be- 
fore a  tribunal  of  this  kind,  but  it  was  for  looking  after  tlie 
20  claim?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Did  you  go  to  Ottawa  yourself?      A. — No. 

Q. — Did  Mr.  Helyea  go  to  Ottawa  for  you?  A. — He  was 
already  there;  he  stayed  there. 

Q. — He  afterwards  came  out  and  lived  here?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Did  you  pay  anytliing  there  towards  the  expt>nses  of 
Captain  Warren?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  the  amount  you  paid?  A. — In  con- 
nection with  the  "Onward"'  claim,  fl52. 

<4. — You  actually  paid  that?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Your  share  of  the  expenses  in  that  case — in  that  case 
in  connection  with  the  seizure?      A. — Certainly. 

Q. — He  went  there  for  nearly  everybody  intei-ested  up 
there?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Now,  bringing  you  down  to  this  list  that  was  put  in 
by  Captain  Warren:  He  puts  in  "nine  canoes  and  outfit, 
f445" — You  say  you  did  not  charge  that  amount?      A. — No. 

Q. — You  only  charged  the  canoes  f25  each?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — When  Captain  Warren  went  away  did  you  give  him  a 
statement  of  what  the  canoes  were  worth?      A. — No. 

Q. — And  you  were  not  at  Ottawa?      A. — No. 

Q. — He  puts  down  there  were  four  shot  guns;  I  have 
already  explained  there  were  more  than  that?  A. — There 
were  more. 

Q. — Would  there  be  any  difference  in  the  cost  of.  outfitting 
a  vessel  between  1886  and  1887,  or  would  it  be  about  the 
same?      A. — Practically  the  same. 

Q. — Now,  can  von  give  me  the  size  of  these  canoes,  Mr. 
Spring?       A.— 20  feet  to  22  feet. 

Q. — Those  were  the  ordinary-  canoes  the  Indians  used? 
A. — Yes,  the  ordinary  sealing  canoe. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  will  have  to  call  the  witness  bye  and  bye 
with  those  letters  of  Captain  Monro's. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  think,  may  it  please  the  court,  that  by 
reflninc  **•;  testimony  we  may  shorten  the  time  of  the  Com- 
missioners in  examining  this  witness. 

Mr.  Peters: — We  put  in  the  "Carolena"  case  "Exhibit  No. 
60  I5j"  which  consisted  of  a  lot  of  extracts  from  certain  logs 
of  the  revenue  cutters,  and  also  correspondence;  I  want  to 
put  them  in  this  case,  to  refer  to  them  in  this  case,  and  to 
add  a  little  more  I  want  an  extract  of  the  log  of  the  "Cor- 
win,  an  official  copy  sent  me,  dated  "Sitka,  Friday,  Septem- 
ber 10th,  1886,  at  the  joint  request  of  Governor  A.  P.  Swine- 
ford  and  Judge  Lafayette  Dawson,  the  United  States  District 
Court,  Alaska,  20  British  Indians  for  Nanaimo,  B.  C,  9  white 
men  for  Port  Townsend,  W.  T.,  were  received  on  board,  they 


40 


50 


if. 


872 


.1  !  iP  I: 


'iji'ijiii! 


20 


(riinrli'H  Spring— blri'ct—CroHB.) 

being  pnrt  <»f  the  cih-wh  of  (lie  HeliooniTM  "Onward,"  "San 
Diego"  and  "Thornton."  left  in  deMtitiite  eirciiinHtances, 
there  being  no  employment  in  the  region.  Tlie  United 
States  MarHhal  furninhed  tlie  neceHHary  proviHionH. 

CharleH  Spring,  reealled  bv  Mr.  IVterH: 

Q.— .luHt  tell  me  tlie  lay  the  Indians  were  on  on  board  the 
10  "Onward"  in  l.SSO?      A.— »l  a  siiin  each  man. 

Q.— Tliat  is  10  any,  tliere  were  two  Indians  in  each  canoe, 
and  tiiey  would  cost  yon  f2  a  sliln  witli  tlio  Indians?  A.— 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.— And  the  captain  was  paid  how  much?  A.— 175  per 
month. 

Q.— And  the  mate?      A.— 140  per  month. 

Q. — And  the  other  two  white  men?  A.— |3r»  a  month 
each. 

('roTs-examination  hy  Mr.  Dickinson: 

Q.—'So  lay  for  the  white  men?      A. — No. 

Q. — Nor  tlte  captain  nor  tlie  mate?      A — No. 

Q. — Was  there  any  lay  for  any  of  these  men?  A. — No, 
only  wages. 

Q. — That  was  your  way  of  doing  business  at  that  time?  A. 
—Yes. 

Q. — It  has  just  occurred  to  me  that  there  was  one  item 

neglected.      There  is  a  matter  of  |80  in  cash  that  does  not 

appear  there — what  is  that?      A. — It  is  the  money  that  the 

30  captain  himself  had,  and  intended  to  deposit  over  to  me. 

afterwards  taken  away. 

Q. — That  will  appear  by  his  correspondence?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Can  you  tell  me  the  octual  amount  you  advanced  to 
your  crew?  Have  you  got  a  voucher  for  it?  A. — Yes,  I 
think  so. 

Q. — You  can  find  out  and  tell  me  when  you  come  back? 
.\. — Yea,  the  books  will  show  it. 

The  following  portion  of  tlie  record  of  December  .10th  is 
^o  printed  now,  by  consent  of  counsel,  for  convenience. 

Mr.  Peters: — If  the  Oonimissionera  will  allow  me.  I  would 
like  to  put  formally  in  evidence  a  copy  of  the  register  of  the 
ship  "Onward,"  which  I  omitted  to  put  in,  and  which  the 
Commissioners  suggested  I  should  jiut  in. 

Received  and  marked  Exhibit  m  (O.B.)  Claim  No.  3. 

The  Commissioners  then  rose  at  1  p.m. 


50 


\.    \ 


60 


Oommissioners  under  the  Oonvention  of  February  8,  1896,  between 
Great  Britain  and  the  United  States  of  America. 

Chambers  of  the  Legislative  Assembly, 

At  Victoria,  December  28,  1896. 

At  10.30  a.m.  the  Commissioners  took  their  seats. 

Direct  examination  of  Mr.  Spring  continued  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q. — Mr.  Spring,  you  made  a  statement  the  other  day  that 
Mr.  Clark,  the  lawyer  at  Sitka,  had  not  drawn  on  you  for 
that  ?500?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — As  a  fact,  did  he  draw  on  you;  was  that  statement 
correct  or  was  it  not?      A. — It  was  not  correct. 

Q. — Did  he  draw  on  you?      A. — Yes. 


30 


873 
K'lmrlfM  KpfiiiK — IMn-f-t.) 

Q.— Hut  (lid  you  pa.v  tin?  diafl?      A.— No. 

Q. — And  tluit  hud  pUHHed  from  your  mind?  A. — That  had 
|HiHHi>d  from  my  mind  ut  tlic  time. 

y. — Now  you  nmdu  u  Hlatfmt'iit  the  other  day  thn*  .  'ilso 
want  to  ask  you  about,  that  you  had  not  r»'ci'iv«'d  any  l<>tt«'r, 
or  did  not  rMiu*mb«'r  of  receiving  any  l«'ttt'r.  from  United 
Htat<>8  authoriticK  about  the  releaw  of  your  vesm'!.  Have 
lo  you  Hince  lool<ed  that  up  to  net*  whether  tluit  statement  was 
correct  or  not?  A. — Well,  my  statement  must  have  been  in- 
corre.t  at  tlie  time  that  I  did  i.ot  receive  any  letters. 

Q. — Ah  a  matter  of  fact,  do  vou  i-oniember  of  receivinR  any? 
A.— No. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  now  of  rc;iivinR  any?  A. — Not 
clearly,  but  since  it  appears  to  b«'  jirinted.  there  certainly 
must  have  been  a  letter  sent  that  I  liave  forpott«'n  all  nlmut. 

Mr.  Peters: — As  a  matter  of  fact,  there  is  a  letter  which 

2Q   we  have  here  in  the  correspondence  in  December,  1887,  but 

Mr.  Rprinp  said  he  did  not  remember  about  sending  it  then, 

but  he  thinks  now  on  seeing  the  letter  that  he  must  have  got 

it. 

Witness: — I  must  have. 

Mr.  Peters: — The  letter  that  I  refer  to  is  the  letter  con- 
tained in  the  oflicial  «'orpeHpondence  from  Mr.  Barton  .Atkins 
to  Mr.  r.  Spring,  dated  the  5th  of  December.  1887,  which  will 
be  found  in  Vol.  5,  American  reprint,  page  18.1. 

Q.— Now,  Mr.  Spring,  did  Cajttain  Monro  take  with  him 
jiny  cash  when  he  went  away?      A. — Yes. 

Q.— What  amount?  A.— The  amount  of  IWH);  that  is  the 
amount  he  was  instructed  to  take. 

Q. — I  believe  he  accounted  to  you  for  the  disposal  of  a  con- 
siderable portiiui  of  that?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Which  account  you  will  have  here  in  a  moment?  A. — 
Yes. 

Q. — Did  you,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  pay  the  ca])tain,  mate, 
4°   white  men  and  hunters  on  board  vour  ship  for  all  their  w«irk? 
A.— Yes,  fully. 

Q. — Up  to  what  time?  A. — In  some  cases  up  to  the  time 
of  the  arrival  in  Victoria,  and  in  others  up  to  the  time  of 
seizure. 

Q. — Which  ones  were  paid  up  to  the  arrival  in  Victoria? 
.\. — Mark«'tich. 

Q. — Was  the  capt.iin?       A. — Tlu>  captain  also. 

Q. — Were  the  seamen?      A.— Up  to  the  time  of  seiv.iire. 

Q.— .\nd  the  Indians,  what  were  they  jmid?  A.— They 
were  paid  for  all  the  skins  they  had  caught  up  to  the  time  of 
seizure. 

Q.— Whether  seized  or  not?  Some  skins  were  not  seized? 
A. — That  is  right. 

Q.— Did  you  pay  them  on  the  skins  that  were  seized  as  well 
as  those  not  seized?  A.— Yes.  on  all  the  skins,  seized  and 
not  seized. 

Q._So  that,  so  far  as  you  are  concerned,  you  paid  every- 
body ?  A . — E  very  body. 
^  Q.— I  want  to  ask  you  another  thing  in  addition  to  the  ar- 
ticles you  mentioned  the  other  day  as  being  on  board  the 
ship.  Had  you  any  nautical  instruments  on  board  tin  ship 
A. — There  were. 

Q.—W^ere  they  returned  to  you?    A  —Not  all  of  them. 

Q.— WHiat  nautical  instrnnients  were  they?  A. — The  sex- 
tant was  not  returned. 

Q.-W^hat  was  the  value  of  it?      A.— f2.^,  I  think  it  was. 


SO 


(I  '> 


^^''V 


[I    •:!. 


I 


k 


piPKi.1 


m 


■)(i 


n 


lO 


20 


30 


874 

(Olinrlos  Spring — Dircrt — Cross.) 

Q. — Vou  r«»»'pi'rcd  the  other  day  to  a  conMidernble  quantity 
of  inanila  rope.  That  was  mentioned  in  tlie  inventory.  Have 
yon  since  looked  at  the  inventory  to  see  what  that  nianila 
rope  cost?  Have  you  looked  at  the  vouchers?  A. — I  exam- 
ined the  vouchers  the  other  day,  and  from  wliat  I  could 
make  out  it  certainly  must  apply  to  the  same  as  that  whicli  is 
shown  in  the  inventory. 

Q. — That  is  voucher  No.  36,  I  think.  Just  look  at  it  and 
see?  A. — (Examining) — Yes.  170  pounds  of  2J  manila, 
|.3().G0. 

Q. — It  is  sold  by  the  pound,  is  it?  A. — It  is  usually 
charged  by  weight,  but  in  this  case  it  seems  to  be  carried  out 
by  the  quantity. 

Q. — What  was  the  price  of  skius  in  1887  that  you  received? 
A.-I7. 

Q, — Was  that  the  .market  price,  or  what  you  got?  A. — 
That  is  the  best  price  that  I  got. 

Q. — You  got  them  from  what  ship?      A. — The  "Favourite." 

Q.— In  1887?      A.— In  1887. 

Q. — Then  you  sold  to  whom?    A. — To  Morris  Moss. 

Q. — What  did  you  realize  for  the  Pehriug  Sea  catch?  A. 
-»7. 

Q. — Did  you  sell  any  at  a  less  price  than  f7  in  1887?  A.— 
Yes,  I  did. 

Q. — For  what  price?      A. — For  |5. 

Q. — That  was  the  spring  catch?  A. — That  was  later  on 
in  the  same  year.  Late  in  the  season,  a  considerable  time 
after  all  the  schooners  had  arrived  in,  quite  a  few  skins  had 
arrived  here,  and  mine  being  the  last,  of  course,  everybody 
had  been  supplied. 

Q. — In  the  early  part  of  the  season  what  time  did  you  sell 
for  $7?    A. — To  the  middle  of  September,  I  think. 

Q. — Did  you  have  any  coast  catch  that  year?      A. — Yes. 

Q.— Did  you  sell  that?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — When?       A. — During  the  spring. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  the  price  of  the  coast  catch? 

4°       Mr.  Dickinson :— Spring  of  1888? 

Witness:— Spring  of  1887.      That  would  average  about  Ifi. 

Q. — Now,  when  you  say  average,  does  that  include  the 
price  for  all  sizes,  down  to  gray  pups  and  all?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — What  time  of  the  year  did  you  sell  yor.i'  coast  catch? 
A. — During  the  mouth  oi  ApriT;  during  tife  lafter  part  of 
April  and  beginning  of  May. 

Q. — Tliere  is  no  trouble  in  getting  at  what  you  paid  the  In- 
50   dians.     Were  tliey  paid  their  full  lay?      A. — Full. 

Q. — That  is  to  say,  each  skin  cost  you  |2?  A. — Yes,  by 
the  Indians. 

Q. — Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Warren: 

Q. — I  think  you  said  in  your  direct  examination  the  other 
day,  Mr.  Spring,  that  you  owned  part  of  the  canoes  and  the  In- 
dians ownev'  1  part,  because  you  liad  a  lien  on  the  canoes 
by  reason  of  advances  made.  Did  you  state  that?  A. — ' 
said  so,  yes. 

Q. — The  advance  that  you  made  to  the  Indians,  however, 
"°  is  a  part  of  the  money  which  you  charged  as  paid  to  them, 
is  it  not?      A. — In  some  cases. 

Q. — So,  if  you  recover  for  the  value  of  the  canoes,  so  far  as 
your  lien  is  concern<>d  and  the  money  which  yon  claimed  to 
pay  the  Indians  you  would  be  recovering  the  same  money 
twice  in  some  instantes?  A. — In  some  instances,  but  in 
such  a  case  as  that  the  Indians  would  be  charged. 

Q. — What  do  you  mean  by  that?  A. — When  I  say  the 
Indians,  I  mean  the  Indian  hunters  would  be  charged*  that 


T'fi 


lO 


20 


875 

(Charles  Iripring — Cross.) 

would  be  deducted,  auu  iu  other  oases  it  was  a  direct  pur- 
chase from  the  Indian  that  owned  the  canoe  in  order  to 
make  the  complement  to  send  out. 

Q. — That  was  in  the  case  where  you  directly  purchased  the 
canoe?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — How  many  canoes  did  you  directly  purchase?  A. — 1 
should  think  some  three  or  four. 

Q. — And  the  others  you  only  had  a  lien  upon?  A. — A 
lien  upon  some  and  othera  again  they  owned. 

Q. — You  only  purchased  three  or  four  of  the  canoes  your- 
self?     A. — Yes,  about  that  number. 

Q. — The  lien  which  you  claim  upon  them  constituted 
a  part  of  their  wages  which  they  got  in  the  end?  A. —  I 
should  think  so.      I  think  likely  it  would  be  so. 

Q. — What  did  you  pay  for  those  three  or  four  canoes  that 
you  did  own?  A. — Various  prices.  Size  and  age  had  a 
good  deal  to  do  with  it. 

Q. — Something  about  what  they  cost;  we  do  not  care  for  a 
dollar.      A.— Vrom  |10  to  fl2. 

Q. — Would  that  Include  the  outfit  of  the  canoes,  the  pad- 
dles?     A.— Not  at  all. 

Q. — The  canoe  naked  would  cost  between  flO  and  fl2? 
A. — That  is  just  the  bare  canoe. 

Q. — And  those  canoes  were  about  20  to  22  feet  long? 
A. — About  that.  In  this  particular  case,  of  course,  I  was 
obliged  to  take  what  canoes  I  could  get.  At  that  stage  of 
the  business  we  were  commencing  to  think  about  going  to 
30  Behring  Seji,  and  that  season  was  about  the  first  outside  of 
the  "Favourite"  of  any  vessel  that  had  gone  up  to  Behring 
Sea  in  my  case. 

Q. — Where  did  you  buy  those  canoes?  A. — At  a  place 
called  Jackleslet — Battle  Bay. 

Q. — How  far  is  it  from  Kyuquot?  A. — About  14  or  15 
miles. 

Q. — And  about  how  far  from  Ciayoquot  Sound?  A. — A 
Tittle  bit  over  100  miles. 

Q. — North  or  south?       A. — North. 

Q. — You  have  examined  the?  inventory,  Mr.  Spring,  which 
purports  to  have  been  made  by  the  officers  of  the  cutter  that 
seized  the  "Onward?"      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Now.  with  the  exception  of  the  barrels  of  pork  and 
comed  beef,  do  you  know  of  any  provisions  which  were 
aboai-d  the  "Onward"  when  she  was  seized  other  than  those 
that  ar.^  inventoried  here?  A. — Well,  I  couldn't  say  direct- 
ly myself,  I  would  have  to  dejH'nd  on  other  jwople;  the  cap- 
tain had  his  instructions  to  take  his  .nitflt  from  the  store  in 
that  case. 

Q. — You  cannot  tell  from  your  own  personal  knowledge? 
A. — No,  I  wouldn't  ventui-e  to  state,  because  I  don't  know. 
Evei-j'thing  was  put  on  that  was  reciuired. 

Q. — You  weiv  asked  what  it  <'08t  to  sustain  a  white  man 
for  a  month.  You  said  you  never  had  had  any  experience. 
Did  vou  never  have  a  white  crew  out?      A. — Yes. 

Q.— What  year?       A.— 18S7. 

Q.— What  boat?       A.— Tlie  "Favourite." 

Q. — You  were  on  the  loal  yourself,  were  you  not?  A. — 
Part  of  the  season. 

Q. — In  lieliring  Sea  yourself?      A. — Not  in  Behring  Sea. 

Q. — I  tliongnt  that  where  you  made  a  copy  of  the  log 
of  the  "Favourite,"  in  Behring  Sea?  A. — No,  it  was  the 
following  year,  18HS. 

Q. — Yon  were  on  the  "Favourite,"  however,  when  she  was 
outf.ted  in  1SH7?  A. — The  beginning  of  the  season,  the 
spring  season. 


40 


50 


60 


Hi 


■'l! 


ill 


.1 


i::v 


fir  ^ 

hi  .         I 


1 

hi:, 


1). ; 

1; 


ill;- 


I     :        :  '-'iw: 


w\m 


876 

(Cliai'les  Spring — Croas.) 

Q. — Do  you  know  what  it  cost  for  a  white  man  that  year? 
A. — No,  I  do  not. 

Q. — Have  you  no  idea?  A. — I  never  went  into  it  at  all; 
I  just  simply  fitted  out  that  season,  in  oi-der  to  gratify  a  cer- 
tain wish  of  my  own,  in  order  to  get  the  best  of  some  of  the 
Indian  hunters,  and  after  that  was  gratified  I  went  on  with 
Indians  again. 
10  Q- — Would  not  your  books  show  the  total  cost  of  getting 
the  "Favourite"  ready  for  the  voyage  of  1887?  A. — Yes, 
certainly,  but  I  never  went  into  that  examination. 

Q. — You  could  tell  us  how  much  per  man  it  cost  in  1887 
by  an  inspection  of  your  books?      A. — I  think  so. 

Q. — Win  you  do  that,  Mr.  Spring?      A. — Yes,  certainly. 

Q. — Captain  McLean  was  over  at  Kyucjuot  when  the  "Fa- 
vourite" and  "Onward"  started  for  Behring  Sea?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — And  you  went  up  from  Victoria  on  the  "Favourite" 
with  Captain  Alexander  McLean  up  to  Kyuquot?      A. — Not 
20  all  the  way,  no. 

Q. — Part  of  the  way?     A. — Part  of  the  way,  yes. 

Q. — You  never  had  been  in  Behring  Sea  before  tliat  time, 
had  you,  Mr.  Spring,  sealing?      A. — No. 

Q. — And  you  entrusted  to  Captain  Aleyint  ?r  :,,'r~iean  the 
management  of  the  "Favourite"  and  ''O.iwa:;  ^  Behring 
Sea?      A. — Yes,  his  advice  would  be  f oH  .  .  •«'', 

Q. — It  would  be  followed  by  the  capt,;ii!  of  the  "Onward" 
as  to  when  she  would  leave  the  sea?      A. —  I'es. 

Q. — And,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  you  know  that  the  "Onward" 

30  kept  in  the  company  of  the  "Favourite"  up  to  the  time  she 

was  seized?      A. — I  think  it  is  likely;  I  don't  know  exactly. 

Q. — Do  you  know  tliat  that  is  the'report  of  the  captain  of 
the  "Onward?"  A. — They  were  in  company  at  times;  I 
don't  know  whether  it  means  from  day  to  day  or  not. 

Q. — You  do  not  know  what  time  the  season  ended  in  Behr- 
in  Sea  in  1886,  nor  what  time  it  was  advisable  to  leave  the 
Sea?  A. — No,  only  from  what  I  would  be  able  to  find  out 
from  other  experienced  men. 

Q. — So  that  you  left  that  matter    to    Captain    McLean? 
4°  A. — Yes,  after  giving  my  personal  instructions. 

Q. — You  did  not  give  any  letter  of  instructions  to  those 
captains,  did  you?  A. — No,  I  wasn't  able  to  at  that  time, 
because  I  didn't  know  I  would  succeed  in  getting  the  vckmI 
off,  and  after  I  did  it  had  to  be  verbally. 

Q. — You  stated  you  expected  the  boats  back  here  fi'«>n  \ho 
10th  to  the  15th  of  September,  I  believe?  A.- -Outfit  'd  :oi- 
that  time;  somewhere  in  that  neighborhood. 

Q. — You  placed  a  value  of  |1.'.5  on  each  of  those  guia.  Yon 
do  not  mean  that  that  was  the  real  worth  of  the  gun»  at 
that  time?  Or  was  that  the  cost  of  guns  of  that  style  and 
quality?  A. — Well,  that  is  the  ])rice  that  those  guns  wouliT 
be  valued  at  at  that  time. 

Q. — Those  particular  guns?  A. — Take  it  all  through  for 
the  people  that  owned  those  guns,  of  course  those  guns  are 
not  all  mine — 

Q. — We  want  to  kn<»w  all  about  that:  How  many  of  those 
guns  do  you  clain.?      A. — I  claim  them  all. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  submit  at  this  point  that  it  mattei  ot  to 
60  whom  those  gnus  belong,  we  have  a  right  to  rt<  '•  r  for 
them.  My  contention  is  that  it  matters  not  to  wh..;..  :'<y 
belong.  When  the  money  is  paid  by  the  United  StnUr-  '»v 
ernment,  of  course  it  will  be  for  the  Mritish  (Government  to 
8e<'  that  the  people  who     vn  the  rirtides  are  ]>aid  for  them. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — If  tin  <  nitcd  C'^nn  's  are  liable,  they  want 
to  imy  for  the  guns,  nnl'  (.^  R(/!ne  of  th\n  property  belongs  to 
peo]>le  who  cannot  b»>  paid  under  Ir  convention.  All  we 
want  are  the  facts. 


SO 


8/7 


(Charle.s  Spring — CroHS.) 

Q. — How  many  of  the  >;uns  are  yours,  Mr.  Spring?  A. — 
Oh,  about  six  or  seven;  somewhere  about  there;  had  twelve 
altogether. 

Q. — And  to  whom  did  the  others  belong?  A. — They  be- 
longed to  Indians  and  white  men. 

Q. — To  the  hunters  aboard  the  boat?  A. — Some  of  the 
hunters  and  some  of  the  crew, 
lo  Q- — You  have  put  in  a  claim  heretofore  against  the  United 
States  Government,  in  which  you  stated  that  the  "Onward" 
took  400  skins,  and  you  deducted  those  four  hundred  skins 
from  an  estimated  catch  for  the  season,  and  claimed  from 
the  United  States  Oovemment  the  balance. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — ilr. 
Warren,  that  evidently  is  in  writing.  The  proper  course  is 
to  show  him  the  claim. 

Mr.  Warren: — I  am  asking  him  if  he  has   put   in   such  a 
claim. 
20       Witness: — Yes. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — If 
you  are  going  into  the  contents  of  it,  the  proper  course  is 
to  show  it  to  him.  The  Commissioners  want  to  know  with 
accuracy  what  it  is  if  you  are  going  to  refer  to  it  at  all.  The 
better  way  is  to  pursue  the  usual  course,  then  we  will  know 
where  we  are. 

By  Mr.  Warren: — Q. — I  refer  to  the  copy  of  affidavit  of 
Mr.  Spring  found  on  page  «0,  Vol.  5,  of  the  American  Re- 
print.     Now.  Mr.  Spring,  you  know  that  the  "Onward"  took 
3°  more  than  400  skins  in  Behring  Sea  that  year,  do  you  not? 
A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — And  you  have  not  mentioned  that  in  the  affidavit  nor 
in  your  testimony  here,  have  you?      A. — I  really  don't  know. 

Q. — How  many  more  did  the  "Onward"  take  in  Behring 
Sea  than  the  400?  A. — The  amount  that  was  transferred  to 
the  "Favourite." 

Q. — How  many  was  that?      A. — 507  or  508.  I  am  not  sure. 

Q.— That  makes  007  skins  that  the  "Onward"  took  in  Beh- 
40   ring  Sea  in  IHWJ  instead  of  400,  does  it  not?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Now  that  would  make  a  difference  in  your  claim — a 
considerable  differenc«>?      A. — Oh,  yes,  certainly  it  would. 

(J. — And  the  507  skins  that  w«-r'e  transferred  from  TRe 
"Onward"  to  the  "Favourite"  and  sent  down  to  Victoria,  you 
had  the  benefit  of,  did  you  not?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — And  they  were  ail  caught  in  Behring  Sea?  ,    A. — Yes. 

(J. — Do  you  remember  now  whether  you  had  «'ight  or  nine 
canoes  in  the  sea?      A. — I  don't  remember  positively,  but  I 
believe  nine. 
5°       Q. — Did  she  have  a  stem  boat?      A. — She  must  have  had  a 
stem  boat. 

Q. — Do  you  know  whether  she  did  or  not?  A. — I  do  not; 
she  must  have  had;  I  think  she  did.  I  didn't  see  it  on  the 
Inventory  at  all. 

Q. — What  month  was  it  that  you  were  over  to  Kyuquot^ 
when  the  "Onward"  started  for  Behring  Sea?  A. — June, 
I  think. 

Q. — About  what  time  in  June?       A. — It  would  be    some 
60  ♦inif  about  the  beginning  of  June;  the  latter  end  of  May  or 
the  beginning  of  June;  yes,  beginning  of  June. 

y. — How  many  days  were  the  "Favourite"  and  "Onward" 
in  Kyuquot?      A. — Three  or  four  days,  I  think. 

Q. — And  they  sailed  direct  for  Behring  Sea;  they  did  not 
seal  on  the  way  up,  did  th«'y?  A. — I  don't  know;  I  never 
htiird  any  rejwrt  to  the  effect  of  sealing  on  the  way  up. 

(i. — They  did  not  stait  with  the  intention  of  sealing  on  the 
way  up?      A.— Not  in  those  days;  it  wasq't    likely;    fhey 


■  ! 


Ill' 


:  j  '!:§!: 


3«5 


878 

(Charles  8pi-iug — Ciobh.) 

would  call  in  somewhere  for  water,  and  then  go  to  Bchring 
Sea. 
Q.— By  they,  I  mean  the  "Onward?"      A.— Yes. 
Q.— You  stated  that  if  you  had  had  the  "Onward"  in  1887 
that  you  would  have  sent  her  to  Behriug  8ea,  and  told  about 
the  bright  outlook  in  1886  for  sealing  siTiooners.      Did  you 
not  have  a  sealing  schooner  here  in  the  harbor  of  Victoria 
,Q  in  1886  doing  nothing?      A. — I  didn't  quite  catch  the  ques- 
tion. 

Q. — Did  you  not  have  a  scaling  schooner  here  in  the  har- 
bor of  Victoria  in  1886?      A.— No. 

Q. — Where  was  the  "Kate?"  A. — She  was  employed  seal- 
ing, and  after  sealing  she  would  be  commissioned  to  attend 
to  the  trading  business  on  the  coast. 

Q. — She  was  not  emploj'ed  in  sealing  in  Behring  Sea?  A. 
— No,  I  didn't  think  it  was  necessary  to  send  hei*at  that  time; 
in  fact,  I  don't  think  I  could  have  done  so  for  two  reasons:  I 
20  required  her  presence  here  on  the  coast;  I  should  have  had 
one  vessel,  at  least.  I  sent  off  what  I  could  and  retained 
one;  that  was  the  "Kate,"  for  business  on  the  coast. 

Q.^Did  you  not  try  to  get  a  crew  for  the  "Kate"  to  go  Into 
Behring  Sea  in  1886?      A.— I  did  not. 

Q. — Who  was  it  testified  here  the  other  day  that  yon  could 
not  get  a  crew  for  her?  A. — Whoever  did  I  don't  know; 
they  had  no  right  to  do  so,  1  don't  think. 

Q. — That  wa.s  not  so?  A. — No,  I  had  her  on  the  coast  all 
right  enough;  T  would  not  send  her  to  Behring  Sea  because 
I  needed  her  here  to  attend  to  freighting  and  trading. 

Q. — You  said  there  were  two  reasons.  What  is  the  other? 
A. — Well,  the  probability  of  not  being  able  to  get  a  crew  to 
send  her  to  Behring  Sea  with;  that  is  the  only  reason. 

Q. — You  could  have  got  a  little  boat  here  that  was  suitable 
to  make  trips  over  to  your  trading  post,  could  you  not,  at  a 
fair  charter  value,  in  18S6?  A. — I  don't  think  so.  No,  not 
to  answer  the  purposes;  not  practical. 

Q.— What  was  the  tonnage  of  the  "Kate?"     A.— 61  tons,  I 
40  think. 

Q. — What  boat  did  you  send  over  to  the  trading  posts  in 
1887?  A.— In  1887  the  "Kate"  was  in  Behring  Sea. 
Q._So  was  the  "Favourite?"  A.— Yes. 
Q. — What  boat  did  you  send  over  to  the  trading  posts?  A. 
— I  had  made  arrangements  at  the  beginning  of  the  season 
to  see  that  every  phice  was  properly  supplied  before  these 
vessels  all  left  the  coast;  so  you  see  it  was  covered  in  that 
wav. 

Q.— So  if  you  had  wanted  the  "Kate"  in  Behring  Sea  in 
1886  you  could  have  made  the  same  arrangement  in  1886? 
A. — We  were  not  altogether  sure  about  the  business  at  that 
time:  it  was  only  after  1S86  that  we  became  positive  that 
Behring  Sea  was  a  place  worth  while  looking  after. 

Q.— Did  you  take  the  "Kate"  over  on  the  coast  loaded  heav- 
ilv  on  these  trips  in  1886?    A.— Yes,  always. 

Q.—And  you  wanted  «  boat  of  large  carrying  capacity?  A. 
—Yes,  any  boat  of  her  size  would  be  sufficient. 

Q._The  "Onward"  was  not  large  enough?      A.— Oh,  yes; 
^   she  could  have  done  it. 

Q._Whv  did  voH  not  send  the  large  boat  to  Behring  Sea 
in  1886  and  keep"  the  "Onward"  down  here?  A.— The  "Kate" 
was  not  altogether  so  well  adapted,  we  thought  at  that  time, 
but  since  that  time  we  have  put  her  in  perfect  trim. 

Q. — Mr.  Spring,  you  have  placed  a  value  upon  the  "On- 
ward" in  the  ye.ir  1886,  and  I  believe  the  question  was  asked 
vou  .what  do  you  consider  her  worth  to  you  under  the  cir- 
cumstances at  that  time,  and  whether  or  not  you  would  have 


20 


879 
(Charles  Spring — Ci-uhh.) 

sold  her  for  |4,il00.  Did  you  intend  to  testify  to  the  market 
value  of  the  "Onward"  in  188C?  A.— No,  no;  just  what  she 
was  worth  to  myself  engaged  in  that  business,  having  noth- 
ing to  bear  on  tlie  market  whatever. 

Q.— You  stated  that  the  value  of  skins  in  1886  was  |7.50. 
Have  you  heretofore  placed  the  value  upon  skins  in  1886  at 
f7?  A. — Yes,  it  was  mentioned,  |7. 
lO  Q— Why  do  you  say  |7.30  now?  A.— Well,  that  was  made 
in  error  by  myself.  I  should  not  have  done  so.  I  am  not 
positive  whether  17.50  would  be  right  or  not,  but  |7  is. 

Q  — Well,  had  you  not  better  have  it  f7  instead  of  17.50  if 
you  are  positive  f7  is  right  and  are  not  positive  about  the 
17.50?  A.— I  was  intending  to  let  that  matter  stand  in  or- 
der to  establish  the  point. 

Q. — I  do  not  exactly  catch  your  meaning.  A. — That  was 
something  I  intended  to  allow  to  stand  until  we  could  estab- 
lish  it  by  the  market  price.  T  had  an  idea  that  f7.50  was 
the  proper  price  to  charge,  therefore  I  put  it  in  that  form, 
although  |7  was  asked  for  according  to  the  claims. 

Q. — Well.  $7  was  the  market  value,  was  it,  of  skins  in 
1886?  A. — I  thought  so  at  the  time,  but  since  then  I  have 
been  led  to  believe  that  f7.50  was  the  price.  Whatever  we 
find  it  to  be.  it  will  have  to  be  that. 

Mr.  Peters: — It  has  already  been  proved  that  skins  sold 
at  $7.50  that  year. 

30       Q.— Who  sold  the  skins  of  the  "Onward"  in  the  year  1886? 
A. — The  skins  from  the  "Onward,"  do  you  mean? 

Q. — Yes;  the  507  skins  that  came  down  here?  A. — Gapt. 
Alexander  McLean,  I  believe. 

Q. — And  he  paid  the  lay  of  the  Indians  out  of  the  proceeds 
of  the  sale,  did  he  not?  A.— Yes,  I  think  so;  they  seemed 
to  be  satisfied  so  far  as  the  skins  were  concerned.     ? 

Q.— That  is  the  Indians  off  the  "Onward?"      A.— Yes. 

Q.— I  believe  William  Spring  was  alive  in  1885.  was  he  not? 
A.— No. 
^°       Q.— Was  Mr.  Francis  ever  in  business  with  yon?      A.— 
Yes. 

Q. — And  McLean.  Francis  and  you  were  in  business  to- 
gether in  1885?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — That  is  Captain  Alexander  McEean?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — And  what  was  Mr.  Francis'  name?      A. — Peter. 

Q. — And  yours  is  Charles  Spring?       A. — Yes. 

Q. — And  you  were  partners?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — And  the  "Onward"  was  one  of  the  ve«^sels  in  that  year 
50  which  was  owned  by  this  partnership?      A. — Yes. 

Q.— Will  you  tell  the  Court  at  what  valuation  the  "On- 
ward" was  put  into  the  partnership  arrangement  in  the  year 
1885? 

Mr.  Peters: — As  it  is  all  in  writing,  I  would  suggest  that 
you  would  speak  from  your  book?  A. — As  I  was  going  to 
say,  I  think  it  would  be  better  to  allow  the  books  to  speak 
for  themselves. 


60 


Q. — Have  yon  your  book  here?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — I  have  not  asked  for  the  books;  you  can  tell  the  fig- 
ures.     A. — f2200  at  that  time,  taking  into  consideration — 

Q. — Wait  a  moment:  you  have  answered  the  question.  At 
what  time  in  1885  was  that?  A.— That  was  In  '84;  that  is 
when  I  took  her  over;  I  put  her  in  at  the  valuation  (o  the 
concern,  at  the  same  price  as  I  took  her  over  from  the  firm 
of  William  Spring  &  Co. 


r: 


if;- ' 

r 


:'ii 


i   ; 


m' 


I  ill : 


Ml 


ilij 
mil. 


I 


liijj  I 
:  i:! 


I,  nti!i 


'  880 

(Charles  Spriug — Cross.) 

Q. — I  usked  you  about  1885,  and  you  have  been  talking 
about  1884?      A. — It  was  in  '84  that  she  was  taken  over. 

Q. — 1884  that  she  was  valued  for  the  purposes  of  the  part- 
nership of  Alexander  McLean,  Pett'r  Francis  and  Charles 
SpriuB  at  |2200?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — You  say  you  took  her  over  from  the  estate  of  William 
Sjirinp;  wliat  year  did  you  tak«'  her?      A. — 1884. 
10       Q.— Just  prior  to  the  time  the  other  partnership  was  form- 
ed?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — You  were  one  of  the  trustees  of  the  estate  of  your 
father,  were  you,  and  an- executor?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — And  you  sold  the  "Onward"  to  yourself?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — To  anyone  else,  or  to  yourself  alone?  A. — Well,  at 
that  time  it  could  not  be  altogether  myself,  because  it  was 
just  joining  in;  and  tliree  of  us  were  taking  the  late  concern 
over. 

Q. — When  you  bought  the  "Onward"  from  tlie  estate  of 
20  your  father,  you  bought  for  the  purpose  of  going  into  +'"i8 
partnership,  which  was  immediately  thereafter  formed;  is 
that  the  idea?  A. — It  turned  out  iiractically  so;  but  wheth- 
er it  would  have  been  so  or  not,  whether  other  parties  would 
have  come  in  or  not,  I  would  have  taken  her  over,  anyway. 

Q. — Who  paid  tlie  estate  of  your  fatlier  for  the  "Onward," 
vou,  or  vou  and  these  two  men?  A. — The  concern,  C.  Spring 
&  Co. 

Q. — The  concern  of  C  Spring  &  Co.,  was  made  up  of  Alex- 
ander McLean,  Peter  Francis  and  yourself?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Then  it  practically  amounts  to  this,  that  that  partner 
ship  purchased  the  "Onward"  from  the  estate  of  your  father? 
A.— Yes. 

Q. — And  you  were  the  trustee  of  your  father's  estate? 
A. — One  of  them. 

Q. — And  you  negotiated  this  sale  of  the  "Onward?"  A. — 
Not  directly;  it  was  negotiated  by  me  through  Mr.  Lubbe. 

Q. — Then  you  and  Air.  Lubbe  liandled  the  sale?      A. — Yes. 

Q.— Mr.  Theodore  Lubbe?       A.— Yes. 
40       Q- — And  he  is  the  gentleman  who  was  on  the  stand  the 
other  day?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — And  he  was  vour  co-executor  and  co-trustee,  was  he 
not?      A.— No. 

Q. — Was  he  not  one  of  the  trustees  of  your  father's  es- 
tate?     A. — No,  he  was  one  of  the — 

Q.— One  of  the  what?  A.— One  of  the  firm  of  William 
Spring. 

Q. — He  was  in  business  with  your  father  at  the  time  of 
your  father's  death?      A. — Yes. 


30 


5-5 


60 


Q. — Was  there  an  appraisement  made  upon  the  property 
of  your  father  after  his  death?  A. — Yes,  I  tliink  so;  I 
would  not  be  sure. 

Q. — 1  suppose  that  appvaisement  would  be  filed  in  the 
Court  wliere  your  father  s  estate  was  probated?  A. — Very 
likely. 

Q. — That  is  the  practice  here,  is  it  not?       A. — Yes. 

Q. — Do  you  know  where  it'  is  yourself?  A — .Well,  the 
books  of  William  Si)ring  &  Co.  would  show  that;  I  wouldn't 
say  positively  that  the  books  liad  been  closed  at  that  date  or 
not. 

Q. — Who  was  in  partnership  with  your  father  at  the  time 
of  his  death,  Mr.  Theodore  Lubbe  and  who  else?  A. — Peter 
Francis. 

Q. — .\nd  tliat  partnership  owned  the  "Opward?"  A. — ■ 
Yes. 


88i 


lo 


30 


30 


40 


50 


60 


(Cliarles  Siiriiig — Cross.) 

Q. — Ro  that  whi'n  this  sale  wa«>  made  to  yourself  or  to  the 
partiuTBhip  of  C.  Spring  &  Co.,  composed  of  Alexander  Mc- 
Lean, Peter  Francis  and  yourself,  Mr.  Tlieodore  Lubbe  con- 
sented to  a  sale  of  the  "Onward'"  at  |2200?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — So  it  was  not  altogether  a  sale  made  by  you  and  your 
co-executors  and  cotrustees,  representing  the  estate  of  Will- 
iam Spring,  but  was  a  sale  by  partnership,  one  member  of 
was  the  estate  of  your  father?  A. — Yes,  the  death  of 
William  Spring  caused  the  winding  up  of  the  old  concern. 

Q. — When  did  Peter  Francis  go  out  of  the  firm  of  C.  Spring 
&  Co.?    A. — I  don't  remember  exactly  the  date. 

Q.— What  year?      A.— 1885,  I  think;  some  time  in  1885. 
Q. — What  name  did  the  partnership  go  by  after  that?  A. — 
C.  Spring  &  Co. 

Q. — Did  you  take  in  any  new  partners  to  take  the  place  of 
Mr.  Francis?       A. — No. 
Q.— Francis  died?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — Then  there  was  just  yourself  and  Alexander  McLean 
after  the  death  of  Mr.  Francis?      A. — That  was  all. 

Q.— You  stated  that  the  "Onward"  wn  valued  at  |2,200. 
Are  you  perfectly  certain  that  it  was  f2,200?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — You  have  looked  at  it  recently  so  as  to  refresh  your 
recollection?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — When  was  that  partnership  between  you  and  Alexan- 
der McLean  dissolved  Anally?  A. — At  the  end  of  the  season 
of  1886. 

Q._What  month  in  1886?      A.— December,  I  think. 
Q. — And  you  retained  your  interest,  whatever  it  was,  in 
the  partnership,  in  the  claim  of  the  "Onward"  against  the 
United  States  Government?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — And  Alexander  McLean  retained  whatever  his  interest 
was  in  the  partnership  of  C.  Spring  &  Co.  in  the  claim  against 
the  United  States  Government?      A.—Yes. 

Q_.When  yon  were  stating  that  the  valuation  put  upon 
the  "Onward"  was  J|i2,200.  I  believe  you  desired  to  make  some 
explanation.  Now  tell  the  Commissioners  what  yon  wished 
to  say.  A. — At  the  time  the  transfer  was  made,  when  I  took 
the  vessel  over,  the  matter  was  considered  in  this  respect, 
that  I,  being  connected  in  the  family,  was  in  a  position  to 
take  the  vessels  over  and  the  property  at  a  lower  rate  than 
what  anybody  else  would  have  been  able  to  take  it  over,  put- 
ting her' in  at  |I2,2(M».  A  higher  figure  than  that  would  have 
been  asked  for  her  if  it  had  been  anybody  outside  of  the  con- 

ccrn. 

Q —Theodore  Lubbe  only  received  his  interest  at  |2,200, 
did  he?  A.—Yes,  he  was  patisfled  to  let  it  go  through  my 
connections;  only  in  that  way. 

Q_What  was  his  interest  in  the  partnership  of  Willmm 
SpTing  &  Co.?  A.— One-third.  This  he  did  not  consider  a 
verv  serious  point  with  him. 

Q  _iie  was  one-third  owner  of  the  "Onward?"      A.—Yes. 

Q.— And  was  Peter  Francis  a  one-third  owner?      A.— \es. 

Q.— And  the  estate  of  your  father  owned  the  other  third.' 

■V  — ^^f*s 

'  Q  _So  that,  so  far  as  your  connection  with  the  estate  of 
vour  father  was  concerned,  that  would  only  refer  to  one- 
third  of  the  boat,  while  two-thirds  of  the  boat  was  owned  by 
men  who  were  in  existence?      A.—Yes. 

Q_You  have  testilied  that  you  were  a  trustee  of  your 
father's  estate.  You  do  not  mean  to  say  that  you  could 
have  sold  that  boat  to  somebody  else  rather  than  yourself 
for  more  monev,  and  vou.  as  a  trustee  of  your  father's  estate, 
did  not  do  that?  A.— T  don't  know.  I  haven't  any  doubt  if 
we  had  held  it  longer— 


■  ! 
!  t 


30 


40 


50 


60 


882 

(Cliai-lt's  Hpriiig — Ci-oms.) 
Q. — Wait  a  moment.      I  asked  you  whether  you  had  any 


A.— No;  I  did 


20 


offers  from  anybody  else  at  a  higher  price? 
not  loolf  for  any. 

Q.— There  hm  been  some  question  here  about  the  various 
sales  of  the  schooner  "Favourite,"  and  as  to  whether  or  not 
a  valuation  was  placed  on  her  in  18Sfi.  Now  Captain  Alex- 
ander McLean  did  not  retain — 

10       Mr.  Peters: — I  do  not  know  whether  we  ought  to  go  into 
the  valuation  of  the  "Favourite"  in  this  case. 

Mr.  Warren: — I  am  going  to  prove  the  fact;  going  to  ask 
what  it  was — the  valuation  placed  upon  the  property. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — You 
want  to  show  that  tliat  was  the  year  in  which  the  valuation 
was  placed  to  which  Mr.  McLean  referred? 

Mr.  Warren: — Yes. 

Mr.  Peters:— I  do  not  see  what  that  has  got  to  do  with  this 
case.  My  learned  friend  does  not  state  the  thing  correctly. 
The  question  was  asked,  was  there  a  sale  of  her  in  1886?  A 
valuation  and  sale  are  two  different  things. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — I 
supposed  the  whole  thing  was  agreed  on  at  the  time  and  un- 
derstood among  counsel,  and  that  would  end  it.  It  was 
stated  on  one  side  that  the  sale  he  referred  to  in  1886  was 
with  reference  to  adjusting  partnership  matters,  and  it  was 
not  objected  to  on  tlie  other  side.  That  would  seem  to  be 
the  end  of  ii. 

Mr.  Warren: — That  is  exactly  as  we  understood  it.  If  it 
is  understood  that  way  by  the  other  side,  we  rest  the  matter. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  stated  fully  what  I  then  understood,  and 
stated  it  distinctly,  and  I  do  not  see  what  we  want  it  down 
here  again  for. 

By  Mr.  Warren: 

Q. — The  "Favourite"  was  concerned  in  this  dissolution  of 
December,  1886,  that  you  have  spoken  of,  was  she  not,  Mr. 
Spring?      A. — Yes. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  flie  United  States: — 1  do 
not  see  how  that  settles  it,  Mr.  Warren. 

Mr.  Warren: — He  states  the  partnership  was  dissolved  in 
December,  188f»,  and  the  value  of  thel  "Favourite '  was  in- 
volved in  that  dissolution. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — As  I 
understand  it,  there  may  be  a  serious  question  here.  I  un- 
derstood him  to  say  that  Captain  McLean  retained  his  inter- 
est, and  he  retained  his  interest. 

Mr.  Warren: — The  last  question  I  asked  him  was,  was  the 
"Favourite"  involved  in  that,  and  he  said  yes. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — But 
he  does  not  say  (hat  there  wns  any  violation  of  the  "Favour- 
ite." 

By  Mr.  Warren:— Q. — AVas  the  valuation  of  the  "Favour- 
ite" In  1886  flxed,  or  was  there  a  valuation  fixed  upon  the 
"Favourite"  in  this  dissolution  which  took  place  in  Decem- 
ber, 1886  between  you  and  Alexander  McLean?  A. — There 
was  a  valuation  put  on. 

Q. — Who  canie  down  here  from  Sitka  and  notified  you  that 
the  "Onward"  had  been  seized?      A. — Previous  to    anvoQC 


:tt 


883 

(Charlt's  Spring — (^nms.) 

coming  down  to  inform  mo  of  the  fact,  I  had  received  a  letter 
from  Captain  Munro,  lier  master. 

Q. — Have  you  that  letter?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Was  there  anybody  down  here  to  see  you  personally 
about  the  matter  of  the  seizure?      A. — Ye» 

Q.— Who?      A.— Clark. 

Q. — What  time?  A. — He  had  been  down  here  on  one  or 
o  two  occasions  before  last  winter.  But  he  had  never  been 
able  to  meet  me — positively  last  winter. 

Q. — I  am  not  asking  you  about  a  thing  so  recent  as  that. 
Was  there  anyone  here  in  1886?  A. — Oh,  no;  nobody  out- 
side of  the  captain. 

Q. — You  knew  that  Mr.  Clark  was  retained  to  represent 
you  at  Hitka,  did  you  not?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — When  did  you  first  know  that?  A. — By  the  captain's 
letter. 

Q. — Are  you  able  tc  state  the  date  of  the  letter?      A. — No. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  said  I  was  going  to  put  all  the  letters  in. 

Mr.  Warren: — I  want  the  date  of  that  letter. 

Mr.  Peters: — It  does  not  appear  to  have  any  date. 

By  Mr.  Warren: — Q. — Do  you  know  the' date  yon  received 
the  first  letter  from  Captain  Munro?  A. — No,  I  haven't  the 
remotest  idea  of  the  date. 


20 


30 


40 


Mr.  Peters: — It  is  evidently  written  shortly  after  the  seiz- 
ure. 

By  Mr.  Warren: — Q. — He  wrote  you  a  letter  which  bears 
date  Sitka,  Alaska,  September  15,  ISSO,  which  I  believe  is 
the  second  letter.  Do  you  know  how  long  after  the  receipt 
of  the  first  letter  before  you  received  the  second  one?  A. — 
No.  I  couldn't  say. 

Q. — But  you  did  receive  this  letter,  which  is  dated  Septem- 
ber 3.  at  Sitka  ?    A. — Yes,  I  received  it. 

Q. — You  put  an  answer  in  at  Sitka,  in  the  proceedings, 
did  you  not?  A. — I  wrote  an  answer  to  the  Captain's  let- 
ter 

Q. — No;  an  answer  to  the  libel  filed  against — 

Mr.  Peters: — That  will  all  appear  by  ,he  record  which  I 
intend  to  put  in. 

Witness: — I  think  so;  I  don't  exactly  remember  the  order 
in  which  business  was  done. 


5C 


Q. — I  am  not  trying  to  prove  the  record  by  you,  I  simply 
want  to  know  whether  you  advised  or  instructed  an  answer 
to  be  put  in?     A. — Yes,  I  thiak  there  must  have  been. 

Q. — That  does  not  answer  my  question.  Did  you  instruct 
the  captain,  or  lawyer  or  anybody  representing  you  to  have 
an  answer  filed?  A. — Captain  Munro  had  already  attended 
to  all  that,  and  I  depended  on  him  as  a  competent  man  to 
look  after  it.  He  had  already  informed  me  by  a  letter,  which 
you  will  see  there,  that  he  had  looked  after  the  business.. 
^  Therefore  I  allowed  it  to  rest,  and  I  depended  on  him  to  man- 
age it  for  me. 

Q. — Did  he  inform  you  that  Mr.  Clark  was  representing 
your  interests  there?    A. — Yes. 

Q. — Did  you  object  to  Mr.  Clark  representing  you  as  un 
attorney?  A. — I  think  there  was  some  objection  at  the 
time,  but  I  cannot  bring  it  to  mind.  But  finally  I  concluded 
tQ  let  him  go  on. 


!! 


■       ■''        i 


!! 


'H'lil 


'tut' 


i'V 


i'i 


30 


I , 


884 

(Clitirh'H  Spring — ( 'ross.) 

Q. — You  agret'd  to  Mr.  Clark  nt'tinj?  as  your  attorney  up 
there?      A.— Yes. 

(i. — And  not  referring  to  the  caHe  of  the  "Onwai-d,"  I  am 
asking  now,  how  long  did  Mr.  Clark  continue  to  represent 
you?      A. — All  along. 

Q. — So  that  whatever  orders  were  given  in  the  ease  of  the 
"Onward,"  at  wliatever  stage,  he  would  still  be  your  attorney? 
10  A. — Yes,  in  that  matter. 

Q.— And  he  liv»'d  at  Sitka,  did  he  not?      A.— I  believe  so. 

Q. — He  was  not  an  attorney  sent  from  here?  A. — Not  nt 
that  time. 

Q. — How  long  did  he  continue  to  live  in  Sitka  after  the 
date  of  the  seizure  of  the  "Onward?"    A. — 1  don't  know. 

Q. — Yon  know  something  about  it?  A. — No,  1  haven't 
any  idea  at  all. 

Q. — You  say  that  he  doesn't  live  down  here  now,  or  doesn't 
live  at  Sitka  now?      A. — 1  don't  know;  he  has  been  living  in 
2°    Victoria,  that  T  know,  but  how  long  1  don't  know.      He  has 
been  living  bet\\een  liere  and  there. 

Q. — Mr.  Clark  did  not  live  in  Victoria,  at  least,  until  after 
the  year  ISSS,  T  believe?      A.— That  is  right;  not  until  after. 

Q. — So  that,  so  far  as  you  know,  he  was  in  Sitka  during 
the  period  from  the  seizure  of  the  "Onward"  up  to  tlie  end 
of  the  year  188S?      A. — I  should  think  so;  yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  did  you  receive  letters  from  Mr.  Clark  with  refer- 
ence to  the  seizure  of  the  "Onward"  from  time  to  time?  A. 
—Yes. 

0.— Prom  Sitka?      A.— From  Sitka. 

Q. — Have  vou  anv  of  those  letters  from  Mr.  Clark?  A. — 
Yes. 

Q.— This  partnersliip  of  C.  Spring  &  Co.  durintr  the  life  of 
Peter  Francis,  when  tliere  were  three  of  you  in  the  tirm,  was 
enirasred  in  the  business  conducted  ov«t  on  the  west  coa«t,  a'so, 
was  it  not?  A. — Yes,  sir;  that  was  the  business  besides  the 
sealing. 

Q. — So  that  the  partnership  of  C.  Spring  &  Co.  conducted 
40   the  business  at  the  trading  stations  along  the  west  coast  as 
well  as  the  sending  out  of  these  vessels  engaged  in  sealing? 
A. — Yes.  sir. 

O. — And  that  remained  so  during  the  year  1886,  after  the 
death  of  Peter  Francis?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q.— Do  you  know  tl>e  date  of  Mr.  Francis'  death?      A. — 
Not  rmsitively  just  now.       1  could    arrive    nt  it    all    right 
enough.      It  should  be  some  time  along.  T  tliink.  in  June  or 
.Tulv.      It  may  have  been  May;  T  don't  know,  18S5. 
.  0. — Von  stated  that  yon  ]»aid   Mr.  Marketich  for  his  ser- 

vices UP  to  tlie  time  that  he  arrived  at  Victoria?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — You  made  an  affidavit.  Mr.  Sprinnr.  and  there  must  be 
.'•n  error  in  it.  I  wisli  yon  won'd  explain  it.  This  affidavit 
I  referred  to  once  before  pajre  fiO.  volume  .5.  of  tho  American 
rer>rint.  In  reference  to  the  "Onward."  von  stated  f'at  she 
ciirried  a  crew  of  20  men.  and  estimated  wnfes  due  to  the 
in;ister  ;Mid  men  for  four  niontlis  f'oui  <'•"  1"U\  fistv  of  .Tmio 
to  the  time  of  her  return  to  Victoria  at  J»7.."0n.  You  did  not 
mean  that,  did  yon.  "r  was  that  a  misprint? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Make  your  own  statement  of  tliat,  Mr. 
Spring;  look  it  over  yourself.  A.— (Examining)— That  must 
be  a  misprint. 

Mr.  Dickinson:— You  remember  what  yon  stated  at  that 
time? 

A. — T  haven't  any  idea  just  now, 
Bv  Mr.  Warren; 


^ 


yi- 


lO 


20 


30 


SS5 

(Phnrh'H  Hprini; — ( 'ro«H — R«'-dmMt.) 

Q. — In  that  aflidiivit,  Sir.  Hpring,  will  you  look  at  it  and 
tell  the  CommiHHioners  whether  von  did  n*»t  plat-e  the  value 
I  skins  in  1S8«  at  |7?      A.— f7. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — L«'t  it  be  understood  that  we  do  not  offer 
this  statement  ns  to  the  f 7.500  to  reflect  at  all  upon  the  wit- 
ness. We  are  conlident,  after  listening;  to  the  witness  on 
this  stand,  that  it  is  a  mistake  rather  than  a  mis-statement 
of  his. 

Mr.  Peters:— I  will  point  out  to  the  Court  that,  after  all, 
that  statement  may  really  be  perfectly  explainable,  because 
he  was  then  estimating,  according  to  tliat  very  affidavit,  that 
they  would  catch  something  like  .3,000  seals;  and  if  they 
caught  3,000  seals  it  would  appear  at  once  that  there  would 
be  10,000  coming  to  the  hunters.  That  fs  only  a  calculation. 
1  think  that  all  reference  to  this  had  better  go  out  of  the 
notes. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Except  this,  at  some  future  time — we  will 
be  fair  about  it — this  might  be  discovered,  and  if  not  explain- 
ed it  might  reflect  upon  the  witness. 

Mr.  Peters: — We  understand  it  now. 

Mr.  Diskinson: — But  this  record  goes  to  others. 

Mr.  Warren:— With  the  understanding,  Mr.  Spring,  that 
you  will  look  up  your  books  pertaining  to  the  "Favourite" 
for  the  year  ISS7,  and  ascertain  for  the  Commissioners  the 
price  per  white  man  for  sustaining  him  a  month,  I  believe 
that  is  all. 

Re-direct  examination  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q. — You  were  asked  as  to  the  value  of  skins  in  1886,  and 
you  said  you  put  them  down  at  $7.50  in  your  evidence  here 
the  other  day.  As  u  nuitter  of  fact,  you  originally  put  them 
down  at  |7,  I  believe?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Did  you  hear  of  a  sale  afterwards  at  a  higher  price? 
A. — I  heard  something  to  influence  me  and  cause  me  to  make 
|7.50  the  amount. 

Q. — Then,  to  come  down  to  the  practical  question,  ;  iu  ac- 
tually heard  that  Mr.  Munsie  had  sold  for  that  amount.  A. 
—Yes. 

Q. — And  you  raised  your  claim  on  account  of  hearing  of 
that  sale?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — So  that  what  you  claim  is  that  you  want  to  get  the 
iiighest  price,  whatever  it  is?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — You  got  a  letter  from  Captain  Munro,  which  is  dated 
September  .'{rd,  ISSCi,  and  this  is  the  letter  you  got  from  him, 
is  it  not?  (Handing  witness  letter  1  This  is  his  writing? 
A. — (Examiningi — That  is  his  writi'ir 

Mr.  Peters: — I  want  to  put  this  letter  in  evidence.  It 
is  dated  at  Sitka,  September  3rd.  1880,  and  reads  as  follows: 

"Dear  Sir:  Y'our  letters  of  22nd  and  2;?iil  ult.  duly  received 
and  contents  very  carefully  noted.  When  I  wrote  you  from 
60  Ounalaska  I  did  not  think  affairs  was  going  to  take  such  a 
serious  turn.  Our  vessels  was  dismantled,  tlie  skins  taken 
on  shore  in  charge  of  the  Commercial  Company.  The  Indians 
and  Frenchey  and  the  two  boys  were  sent  here  on  the  schoon- 
er "San  Diego."  I  was  taken  here  on  the  cutter  that  cap- 
tured us.  We  were  taken  asltore  here  in  charge  of  the  mar- 
shal and  marched  to  the  court  house  to  be  arraigned  before 
the  judge  and  the  district  attorney.  Of  course  we  pleaded 
not  guilty,  and  was  asked  if  we  would  be  tried  by  a  jury  or 


40 


50 


II 


u 


V 


8S6 


|:^ 


"iriii" 


:i:      1 


(Chii rIeH  R|»ri nK — Rcdi HM-t.) 

not.  I  nuked  for  tiiui-  to  conxidcr,  but  wns  told  by  thu  court 
thut  I  would  bavc  to  decide  ut  once.  Iteing  in  a  Htrnnge 
place,  1  thouKlit  I  would  want  n  jury,  but  after  being  let  out 
on  our  own  recognizance  we  Hoiiglit  a  lawyer  to  take  the  case 
11])  for  UH,  agreeing  to  pay  liini  f.'OO  in  eacli  caw*'.  They  ap- 
peared for  UB  next  morning  and  deinandtKl  a  jury.  The 
"Thornton"  case  wuh  tak«'ii  up  first.  The  jury  convicted 
.Q  himself  and  mate,  impoHing  a  fine  of  fr>()0  and  |:U)0.  and  a 
month'H  imprimmment  eacli.  Tlie  "Han  Diego"  was  tried 
without  a  jury,  and  the  captain  got  two  months  and  his  mate 
one  month  imprisonment.  My  case  will  be  tried  on  the  (tth, 
and  I  don't  expect  to  come  much  better  than  the  "Thornton" 
rase,  without  I  get  a  more  respectable  jury  than  the  "Thorn- 
ton" had.  Hut  it  appears  they  are  determined  to  convict  us 
all.  Frencliey  and  I  are  imprisoned  witli  the  rest  of  the 
crowd,  so  we  can't  get  much  news  from  outside.  I  asked 
the  lawyer  to  write  you  and  explain  matters  to  you,  as  he 

20  will  be  able  to  do  it  better  than  I  vnn.  When  I  wrote  you 
from  Ounalaska  I  aslied  the  captain  of  the  cutter  what  he 
was  going  to  do  with  us,  but  I  got  no  satisfaction,  only  that 
I  would  get  justice.  They  were  expecting  a  judge  up  from 
'Frisco  at  the  time.  Had  I  known  we  were  coming  here  1 
y'ould  have  mentioned  it  in  my  letter,  so  you  mfght  take 
steps  to  protect  me  here;  but  it  would  "not  be  of  much  use, 
as  this  affair  can't  be  settled  here.  I  had  about  (80  in  sil- 
ver In  a  bag  when  we  were  taken  on  board  the  cutter,  thai 
I  received  for  clothes  I  sold  the  Indians  at  Ounalaska  at  re- 

^  duced  prices;  and  as  we  were  just  to  live  with  the  sailors, 
and  they  being  a  hard  lot,  I  asked  the  captain  if  he  would  put 
it  in  his  safe  for  me  until  I  got  to  Sitka.  asked  me  If  it 

was  my  own  money  or  the  ship's;  I  told  I  was  my  own; 

he  sealed  tlie  bag  and  put  it  away;  his  officer   wit- 

nessed it.  On  arrival  at  Hitka  he  placed  ii  in  the  hands  of 
the  marshal,  and  I  have  not  seen  it  since.  I  suppose  I  was 
wrong  in  giving  it  to  him;  but  he  told  me  that  personal  pro 
perty  was  respected.      I  am  going  to  see  the  captain  now, 

40  «nd  I  think  it  is  likely  he  will  hand  it  over.  Of  course  I 
told  him  I  thought  I  waS  handing  it  to  a  gentleman.  I  wrote 
Captain  McLean  a  long  letter  and  told  him  about  the  sudden 
disappearance  of  James  Ogilvie  of  the  schooner  "Carolena," 
and  I  am  of  the  opinion  that  he  will  never  be  found  alive. 

"On  the  arrival  of  the  "San  Diego"  here  our  Indians  were 
all  put  on  shore  to  shift  for  themselves,  and  I  believe  they 
are  faring  vtry  slim.  I  spoke  to  the  judge  arid  tlie  marshal 
about  them,  but  they  have  an  idea  that  the  Indians  got 
money,  as  they  made  a  great  display  here  among  the  Indians 

5c  when  they  arrived  the  first  day  or  two.  I  paid  them  cash 
for  skins,  f324,  and  I  got  flOO  of  that  from  them,  or  more, 
and  they  have  been  gambling  and  buying  clothes  here,  so 
they  can't  have  much  left.  I  am  sending  you  an  account 
of  the  cash  pai'l  in  checks  paid  to  the  Indians.  Deducting 
the  400  skins  on  board,  should  you  think  advisable.  Fren- 
chey  feels  very  down-hearted  about  being  in  jail,  but  I  feel 
much  better  since  I  got  yoiir  letter  of  encouragement. 
"I  thank  you  very  much  f(»r  sending  my  wife  the  flOO,  and 

60  ns  T  told 'her  to  be  ready  to  come  out  by  the  latter  part  of 
this  month,  would  you  please  send  her  |200  to  pay  their 
passages,  as  I  want  them  to  come  out  before  the  cold'weath- 
er  seta  in,  and  you  will  oblige  me  very  much. 

"And  don't  be  alarmed  about  myself  and  Frenchey,  as  we 
turned  a  new  leaf,  especially  with  this  business  hanging  over 
us.  Please  write  me,  and  if  there  is  any  letters,  forward 
them.      I  remain, 

"Yours  respectfully,  DANIEL  MUNRO." 


^m 


H  '• 


lind 

of 

leir 

1th- 


lO 


30 


887 

(Charlt'M  SpiiiiK— R«'(lin'tt.) 

Q. — Who  Ih  Pr«'iicht\v?  A.— Thiit  was  tlic  iiiat«>  at  that 
time. 

Q. — It  is  auotl-vr  tiaiiit'  for  Marl«'ti«-h?  A. — That  wns  a 
niclcnnnie  for  Marlcetich. 

Q. — Witli  that,  di<]  you  gi>t  an  ai'foiint  witli  thu  captain 
Hhowinf;  wliat  he  paid  the  IndianH?  A.— With  Honu  of  the 
letters  he  sent  an  account. 

Q.— Ih  that  the  account?  A.— (Exumining)— That  is  the 
account. 

Q.— That  is  the  actual  docunuiit  itself?      A.— It  is. 

Q. — And  thin  document  shows  the  total  amount  due  the 
Indians,  dm-s  it,  IjdSlfi?       A.— Yes. 

Account  received  and  marked  Exhibit  No.  33,  G.  B.,  Claim 
No.  3. 

Q. — Does  this  account  show  the  amount  the  captain  had 
paid  the  Indians?       A. — Yes. 
20       Q. — And  what  is  the  amount    cpining    to    them?      A. — 
11816. 

Q. — I  believe  you  jjot  other  letters  from  the  captain?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Peters: — 1  want  to  be  allowed  to  put  in  a  letter,  dated 
the  4th  of  September,  1886,  from  Captain  Munroe  to  Mr. 
Bpring.      It  is  as  follows: 

"Sitka,  Sept.  4th,  1886. 
"Charles  Sprinj:,  Ehij. 

"Dear  Sir:  Since  w  1  iling  you  yesterday  I  liave  been  thinking 
over  the  dnift  I  gave  tl\e  lawyer  on  you  should  feel  inclined 
to  honor  it.  It  is  a  large  sum,  but  if  I  lose  the  case  here  lie 
has  to  take  it  to  Or.'gon  for  tlie  same  money.  But  should 
you  remit  the  money  you  better  send  it  to  meand  I  will  pay 
him  part  of  it,  as  it  won't  do  for  you  to  give  him  all  of  it  at 
present. 

"1  seen  some  of  our  Indians  last  evening.  They  tell  me 
they  had  nothing  to  eat  yesterday  and  very  little  the  day  be- 
4C1  fore,  and  I  can't  say  how  they  are  goiflg  to  send  them  home. 
But  I  would  like  you  would  show  the  captain  of  the  cutter 
and  the  oflficialH  up  in  the  Victoria  papers.  They  are  pro- 
viding for  all  the  white  men,  but  the  Indians  can't  speak  for 
themselves,  but  there  is  no  doubt  the  United  States  Govern- 
ment pays  for  them  all  the  same.  And  as  to  finding  James 
Ogilvie,  there  has  been  no  search  made  for  him  by  the  author- 
ities tliat  any  person  knows  of.  We  searched  for  him  until 
we  were  locked  up.  And  we  think  he  is  dead  not  far  away 
from  the  town,  and  he  was  a  prisoner  at  the  time.  The  boat 
is  just  about  leaving,  and  I  will  hand  this  to  Mr.  Lewis,  of 
San  Francisco,  who  came  to  see  us,  and  as  he  is  going  to 
Victoria  you  will  likely  see  him.  I  am  in  good  hopes  that 
everything  will  come  out  all  right  yet. 

"Yours  respectfully, 
"(Signed)  DANIEL  MUNROE." 

Mr.  Peters:—!  wish  to  put  in  another  letter,  dated  the  11th 
September,  from  Captiin  Munroe  to  William  Spring.       It  is 
60  ns  follows: 

'Sitka,  Sept.  11th,  1886. 
'Mr.  Charles  Spring,  Victoria. 

"Dear  Sir:  As  the  steam  cutter  "Coi-win"  leaves  here  to-day 
for  the  Sound,  and  is  going  to  take  out  Indians  with  her.  I 
thought  best  to  drop  you  a  line.  My  trial  came  off  a  few  days 
ago,  and  I  got  one  month's  imprisonment  and  a  fine  of  f20n, 
and  Frenchv  one  month  in  jail.  Our  time  will  be  up  on  the  5th 


50 


1  ;l 


ii 


1 1 


i  1 


m 
11 

■1,  ■  1  ■       '  ■  ■ 

lO 


20 


30 


888 

(Charles  Bpriiig — Re-diivct.) 

October,  and  if  my  tine  ig  not  paid  I  suppose  I  will  have  to 
remain  until  it  is  paid.  Please  let  me  know  if  a  claim  has 
been  presented  to  the  Government  for  the  ship  and  the  car- 
go, and,  if  so,  what  amount.  Otherwise  the  claim  will  be 
made  here  the  4rh  of  October  simply  for  the  vessel  and  cargo. 
Be  sure  and  let  me  know,  for  there  must  not  be  two  claims, 
for  If  you  presented  a  claim  below  and  I  present  one  here, 
the  consequenctr  will  be  confusion,  as  there  must  be  but  one 
claim.  If  you  have  not  put  in  your  claim  below  the  claim 
here  must  be  made  by  the  4th  Oct.  And  the  belief  here  is 
that  we  will  get  evevything  back  and  be  fully  compensated. 

"1  don't  know  where  they  are  going  to  land  our  Indians 
but  I  will  send  this  letter  by  one  of  the  boys  tliat  was  in  the 
"Onward"  with  us  who  will  forward  it  to  you  as  soon  as  pos- 
sible as  I  would  like  you  would  get  it  before  the  "Idaho"  re 
turns  from  Portland. 

"Please  send  my  letters  up  and  write  me  fully  about  the 
claims 

"I  remain  your  respectfully, 

"(Signed)  D.\NIEL  MTTNROE." 

"I  gave  the  Indians  ^5  and  Frenchy  gave  them  $1  to  buy 
provisions.  Now  Jim  and  his  mate  want  to  know  what  they 
are  going  to  get  for  working  on  board. and  I  think  they  got 
enough  when  Ihey  got  their  victuals  for  all  the  help  they 
gave  us.  I  would  as  soon  be  without  them  than  have  the 
bother  of  feeding  them  in  the  cabin.  It  appears  Jim  told  his 
friend  that  he  would  get  his  meals  aboard  so  he  left  without 
taking  any  provisions  with  him.  All  they  done  for  us  was 
to  kee',»  w'atch  on  the  passage  to  the  Uehring  Sea.  So  you 
can  settle  with  Jim  as  you  please,  but  I  told  the  other  man 
he  was  to  get  nothing.  I  believe  they  are  going  to  be  put 
ashore  at  Nanaimo,  and  should  a  vessel  be  going  so  far  as 
Kvnnuot  please  have  mv  clothes  brought  up  and  oblige. 

"(Signed)  D.  M." 

Q.— Mr.  Spring,  you  were  asked  with  regard  to  the  relations 
existing  between  you  and  some  partners.  Now,  will  you 
just  state  that  very  briefly,  Mr.  Spring.  There  was  an  orig- 
inal piirtnership  carried  on  between  William  Spring  and 
somebody  else?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— What  was  the  name  of  that  old  partnership?  A.— 
WMlliam  Spring  &  Co. 

Q._Who  were  the  members  of  that  firm?  A.— William 
Spring,  Peter  Francis  and  Theodore  Liil»be. 

Q. — What  relation  was  William  Sjii-ing  to  yourself?  A. — 
He  was  my  father. 

Q. — And  William  Soring  died,  when?  A. — In  March. 
1884. 

Q. — He  made  a  will,  I  believe?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Under  which  vou  had  an  interest  in  his  estate?  A. — 
Yes. 

(j. — You  need  not  go  into  particulars,  but  generally  speak- 
fpg  I  l)elieve  you  had  a  fifth  interest?     A. — Yes. 

Q. — In  all  his  property?     A. — Yes. 

Q. — Part  of  which  you  were  to  get  down  and  part  of  which 
60  you  could  not  get  until  a  certain  lime?     A. — Yes. 

ii. — William  Spring  &  Co..  at  the  time  of  your  father's 
death,  did  they  carry  on  business  a(  these  dilTereiil  trading 
stations  on  the  west  coast?     A. — They  did. 

Q. — W^ere  they  also  interested  in  schooners?     A. — Yes. 

Q. — Did  they  also  carry  on  a  general  business?  A. — A 
trading  and  sealing  business. 

Q— At  that  time  there  was  very  little  catching  of  seals,  it 
was  mostly  buying?     .\.— Itnying  and  catching  both. 


40 


50 


^mm 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


Co 


889 

(ClmiicH  Spring — Re-din'ct.) 

Q. — Wlii'ii  your  futlitr  died  was  tlu-ro  a  division  made  an 
between  the  family  sliowing  what  share  you  should  get?  A. 
— Yes. 

(i. — Was  it  ina(l;»  in  kind  or  in  cash?  I  mean  by  giving  you 
certain  property  or  by  giving  yon  cash?  A. — It  was  in  prop- 
erties. 

Q. — You  toolc  over  certain  properties  as  part  of  your  share 
in  ycur  father's  estate?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Did  the  other  heirs  do  the  same?    A. — No. 

Q. — Amoijgst  others  you  got  your  fatlier's  interest  in  cer- 
tain properties?  Did  you  get  any  interest  in  tliese  trading 
stations?      A. — Yes,  1  tool;  them  over. 

Q. — Where  were  they?  A. — Icluet,  Hesquot  and  Clayo- 
quot. 

Q. — You  took  over  your  father's  interest  in  these  trading 
posts?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  also  in  certain  vessels?    A. — Yes. 

Q.— What  vessels?    A.— The  "Onward"  and  the  "Kate." 

Q. — Were  the  trading  posts  more  or  less  speculative  sort 
of  thing?     A. — Yes. 

(J. — And  you  took  them  over  at  a  certain  valuation?  A. — 
Yes. 

i}. — And  you  took  the  schooners  over  at  a  certain  valua- 
tion?     A. — Yes. 

Q. — Was  the  old  firm  of  Wm.  Spring  &  Co.  then  wound  up 
completely?    A. — Not  completely  at  that  time. 

Q. — Did  it  cease  to  be  a  going  concern?    A. — It  did. 

Q. — It  was  left  to  be  finally  wound  up  by  whom?  A. — Mr. 
Theodore  Lubbe. 

Q. — This  was  only  a  partial  winding  up  of  it?    A. — Yes. 

Q. — The  rest  of  the  business  was  left  in  Lubbe's  hands  to 
wind  up?    A. — Yes. 

Q. — And  I  presume  in  the  course  of  time  he  did  wind  it 
up?    A.— Yes. 

Q. — And  under  that  arrangement  you  took  over  these  prop- 
erties?   A. — Yes. 

Q. — And  at  the  same  time  did  you  go  into  partnership  with 
Mr.  McLean?     A.— I  did. 

Q. — Did  that  partnership  include  as  well  the  trading  sta- 
tions and  vour  other  business  as  the  ownership  of  ships?  A. 
—Yes. 

Q. — It  included  all  the  business?  A. — It  included  all  the 
business. 

i}. — It  was  a  general  partnership?  A. — A  general  part- 
nership. 

(.}. — Did  you  make  any  entry  in  your  hooks  showing  the 
taking  over  of  these  iliifcrent  projjerties  from  Wm.  Spring 
&  Co.?    A.— I  did. 

Q.— What  book  is  Ms?     A.— The  day  book. 

Q. — What  day  boo    "      .\. — ('.  Spring  &  Co.'s  day  book. 

Q. — On  the  first  jtage  of  that  book  is  there  an  entry  of  the 
partnership  entered  into  between  you  and  Mr.  Francis  and 
Mr.  McLean?     A. — There  is. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  projtose  to  read  that  entry,  it  is  very  short, 
between  those  parties.     It  is  as  follows: 

Charles  Spring.  I'eter  Fian<Ms  and  .Alexander  McLean  have 
this  day  formed  a  co  partnership  under  the  name  and  style 
of  ('has.  Spring  &  Co..  the  firm  to  do  a  general  trading  busl- 
n»'ss  at  Victoria.  H.C.,  and  on  the  west  coast  of  Vnncou\er 
Island.  Profits  and  losses  are  to  be  divided  iind  borne  by  each 
meriiber  of  the  firm  in  e(|iial  shares,  ('has.  Spring  is  to  man- 
age the  husini'ss  and  to  be  credited  fOOd.OO  per  nnnun*  for 
s«  ivlces. 


11:!! 


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liiii. 

ill 

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20 


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60 


890 

(Charles  Spring — Rt'-direct.) 

Peter  Francis  and  Alexr.  McLean  are  to  labor  for  the  good 
and  interest  of  the  Ann,  and  ai-e  to  be  ci-edited  with  |()0().'»0 
each  per  annum  for  services,  said  remunerations  are  to  be 
charged  to  the  expense  account  of  the  firm. 

Said  co-partnership  shall  continue  for  the  term  of  one  year 
from  date,  and  may  be  extended  as  the  members  of  the  'firm 
may  agree  upon. 

The  capital  of  the  firm  shall  be  $  of  this  sum 

Chas.  Spring  contributes  f  ,  Peter  Francis  |7,000, 

and  Alexander  McLean 

All  capital  thus  invested  with  the  firm,  and  all  sums  of 
money  which  may  be  hereafter  advanced  to  the  firm  by  anv 
member  of  the  firm  shall  bear  interest  at  rate  of  8  per  cent 
per  annum. 

Q.— These  were  thi'  terms  of  partnership?      A.— Yes. 

Q.— Were  there  anv  other  terms  of  partnership  entered  into 
between  you?  Was  it  under  that  thot  you  carried  on  your 
business?      A.— Yes,  up  until  the  death  of  Peter  Francis"! 

Q- — I  mean  so  long  us  you  three  were  in  partnership?  A. — 
Yes. 

Q. — That  was  the  only  arrangement?      A. — Yes. 

Q.— That  is  dated  on  the  7th  July,  1884?  A.— That  is  right. 

Q. — At  page  two  of  the  same  book  did  you  make  an  entry 
of  the  transfer  of  the  different  properties  from  the  firm  of 
Wm.  Spring  &  Co.,  to  Charles  Spring  &  Co?      A.— I  did. 

Q.— That  is  dated  July  7th,  1884?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — That  entry  is  as  follows: 

Bought  of  Wm.  Spring  &  Co.,  on  account,  Merchandise 
Ruildings,  etc.,  at  Kyuqnot  as  per  Inventory  fith  June,  1884, 
♦;J,877.65  also  the  mdse.,  48  acres  land,  houses,  etc.,  at  Ic'.uc- 
le\"  as  per  inventory  14th  June,  1H84,  #2,728.29.  Hought  also 
Schr.  "Onward"  |2,20(».00  also  Sclir.  "Kate"  |!2,8(K»  there- 
fore I  make  the  following  entries.  A. — Yes,  that  is  the  en 
try. 

Q. — I  believe  that  as  a  fact,  Mr.  Francis  put  in  his  f 7,000? 
A.— He  did. 

Q. — And  of  course  you  yourself  put  in  that  firm  what  you 
had  taken  over  from  your  ifather's  estate?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — It  was  fixed  up  between  you  in  some  way.  I  am  not 
going  into  the  particulars  as  to  that,  and  you  carried  on  your 
business  under  that  arrangement  until  when?  Will  you 
just  show  your  next  change  in  that  business?  A. — It  is  stat- 
ed in  the  book. 

Q. — You  carried  on  your  business  for  some  time  and  then 
Mr.    Francis  died?      A. — He  did. 

Q. — That  was  some  time  in  tlie  year  1885?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — And  I  find  at  page  145  of  your  ('..ly  book  under  da(e 
28th  October,  1885  a  memorandum.  Was  that  the  memoran 
dum  made  between  you  and  M,".  M<'Lean?  A. — That  is  the 
memorandum. 

Q. — It  is  as  follows: 

C.  Spring  and  Alexander  McLean  bought  this  day  the  lale 
Peter  Francis'  interest  in  the  business  of  Spring  &  Co.  (to 
date  from  0th  July,  1885.)  for  the  sum  of  f7,lfi8.94,  of  this 
amount  we  have  paid  on  Oct.  Ist,  1885,  to  T.  Lubbe,  execu- 
tor of  the  will  of  the  late  Peter  Francis,  five  hundred  dollars, 
and  to-day  we  settled  the  balance  by  giving  to  the  said 
executor  our  joint  and  several  promissory  notes  for  |6,-608.94, 
payable  on  denuind,  and  bearing  7^  i)er  cent,  interest  per  an- 
num. 

We  also  paid  fl(i2.97  interest  to  said  exacutor,  said  inter- 
est being  computed  from  July  9th,  1885,  to  Oct.  28th,  1885. 


~ 


891 

(Charles  Spring — Re-direot.) 

The  businesB  of  C.  Spring  &  Co.  is  now  to  be  carried  on 
(and  commencing  on  the  ninth  day  of  July  last  by  Charles 
Spring  and  Alexander  McLean-,  under  the  name  and  style  of 
C.  Spring  &  Co.  Profits  and  losses  made  by  the  firm  to  be 
divided  and  borne  equally  betw«MMi  the  said  C.  Spring  and 
Alexander  McLean,  all  liabilities  are  to  be  assumed  by  said 
C.  Spring  and  Alexander  McLean,  and  all  outstandings  to  be 
10  collected  by  them. 

(Signed)  C.  SPRING. 

(Signed)  A.  McLEAN. 

Witness : 

(Signed)         T.  LTIBBE. 

Q. — That  was  the  arrangement  made  between  you  and  Mr. 
McLean?    A. — That  was  the  arrangement. 

Q. — Under  that  arrangement  how  long  did  you  carry  on 
business  with  him?    A. — Until  the  close  of  the  season  of  1886. 

Q. — Have  you  an  entry  in  your  book  as  to  wliere  you  closed 
your  business  with  him?  A. — 1  suppose  there  in,  but  I  do 
uot  know  where  it  is 

Q. — At  all  events  in  the  month  of  December,  1886,  you 
Anally  dissolved  partnership  with  him?     A. — Yes. 

Q. — And  I  believe  that  arrangement  is  in  writing  too,  is  it 
not?    A.— It  is. 

Q. — Have  you  got  that  dissolution  of  partnership?  A. — I 
have  not  got  it  in  my  possession  now,  but  I  could  get  it. 

Q. — And  after  that  dissolution  of  i)artner8hip  you  became 
the  sole  owner  of  the  business?     A. — I  did. 

Q. — With  the  exception  of  his  interest  whatever  it  might 
be  in  the  claims  regarding  the  schooners  "Onward"  and  "Fa- 
vourite"?   A. — Yes. 

Q. — Under  that  he  was  to  get  his  share  wliatever  it  might 
be?    A.— Yes. 


20 


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50 


60 


Mr.   Dickinson: — We  have  that  dwument. 

Mr.  Peters: — If  y<'     i>iodu(e  it  it  will  be  more  convenient. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — We  will  let  you  liave  it. 

Re-direct  examination  by  Mr.  I'clers  continued: 

Q. — That  is  the  document.  I  believe"'    A  — Yes. 

Q. — You  had  one  copy  and  McLean  the  other?     A.^Yos. 

Document  of  dissolution  of  partnership  between  Mr. 
Spring  and  Mr.  McLean  received  and  marked  "Exhibit  No. 
.34  (O.  B.),"  Claim  No.  3. 

Q. — That  was  the  nature  of  vour  partnership  with  McLean? 
A.— Yes. 

Q. — He  had  no  more  to  do  with  your  business  and  >  '>u  had 
no  more  to  do  with  his?    A. — No. 

Q. — That  ended  your  transactions  finally?     A. — Yes. 

Q. — You  were  asked.  Mr.  Spring,  about  tlie  affidavit  that 
you  first  put  in  in  this  claim,  away  back  in  October,  1886.  I 
want  you  to  listen  to  this  affidavit  and  see  whetlier  there  is 
anything  in  it  that  reipiires  explanation  at  all: 

I,  Charles  Spring,  of  Victoria,  British  Columbia,  owner  of 
the  British  schooners  "Onward"  and  "Favourite"  do  solemn- 
ly and  sincerely  declare: 

1.  That  the  value  of  the  said  vessel  "Onward""  a't  the  time 
of  her  seizure  by  the  Ignited  States  steamship  "Torwin"  was 
4,(t00  dollars,  and  the  cost  o7  tlie  outfit  when  she  left  Victoria 
for  the  Behring  Sen  was  1,000  dollars. 

Q. — That  is  what  von  said  then?    A. — Yes. 


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.^Nii: 


II; 


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20 


892 

(Charles  Spring — Ro-dirwf.       Miclincl  Harkin — Direct.) 
Q. — And  you  liave  always  said  th«|  same?    A. — Yes. 

2.  That  she  carried  a  crew  of  twenty  men,  and  the  esti- 
mated wages  due  to  the  master  and  men  for  four  months 
from  the  12th  day  of  June  to  the  time  of  their  return  to  Vic- 
toria is  7,500  dollars. 

Q. — You  ma^e  fliat  estimate?    A. — Yes. 

3.  That  at  the  time  of  her  capture  by  the  "Corwin"  she  had 
100  seal  skins,  wliich  were  worth  |2,S00. 

Q-— You  were  basing  that  at  f7  a  skin?    A.— Yes,  sir. 

4.  That  the  probable  catch  for  the  season  estimated  on  the 
number  of  skins  taken  by  other  schooners  and  by  the  numbe^r 
of  skins  taken  when  the  said  schooner  was  captured,  would 
be  3.000  skins,  tlie  value  of  which,  at  $7  n  skin,  would  be 
121,000. 

Q-— And  you  based  that  on  a  valuation  of  f7  a  skin?  A. 
—Yes. 

Q-— You  stated  to  Mr.  Warren  that  some  of  these  canoes 
were  only  worth  |10.  The  other  day  I  understood  you  to  put 
them  at  t25.  How  do  you  explain  the  difference?  A. — I 
stated  |25  included  everything. 

Q.— And  you  still  stick  to  that?      A.— Yes. 

Q.— You  got  new  canoes?  A. — The  majority  of  them  were 
new.  There  were  some  about  a  year  old  or  so  that  had 
30   been  used. 

Re-cross-examination  by  Mr.  Dickinson: 

Q. — Have  you  produced  all  the  letters  you  received  from 
Mr.  Munroe?  A. — All  of  them,  I  think,  with  the  exception 
of  the  Ounalaska  one. 

Q. — With  reference  to  Mr.  Clark  I  think  you  had  reports 
from  him  right  along  by  letter?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — At  the  time  of  your  dissolution  when  it  was  arranged 
.Q   that  Capt.  McLean  was  to  be  paid  f  1,100  and  odd;  in  accord- 
ance with  the  dissolution  argreenient  did  you  put  a  value  on 
the  "Favourite?"      A. — There  must  have  been. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  what  it  was?  A. — I  do  not  remem- 
ber it  off  hand. 

Q. — Is  there  anything  to  show?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Where  is  it,  is  it  in  the  book?  A.-  -I  tliink  so  but  1 
am  not  able  to  locate  it  precisely  just  now. 

Q. — I  will  try  and  refresh  your  memory.      Wus  it  |3,000? 
A. — I  think  it  was,  ])iit  I  am  not  sure. 
JO       Q.— And  |1,800  for  the  "Kale,"  is  that  riglit?      A.— I  think 
it  is  about  riglit. 

Q. — Tliat  is  tlie  valuation  put  ui)on  them  at  the  time  of  the 
dissolution  when  you  bought  Mcljean  out?  A. — Tliat  is  the 
valuation  put  in  at  tliat  time  and  lnonght  about  under  cer- 
tain conditions. 


lipll 


60 


Michael  Harkin  w.'is  called  as  a  witness  on  the  part  of 
Cireat  Britain  and  was  duly  sworn. 

Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q. — Mr.  Harkin  where  do  you  live?  A. — 30  Queen  St., 
Victoria. 

Q. — You  have  lived  here  for  some  year?  have  you  not?  .\. 
—I  have  been  off  and  on  here. 


'm 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


893 

(Michael  Uarkiu — Direi-t.) 

Q. — What  is  ^our  oeeiipatiou?      A. — Cook. 

Q.— Were  you  on  the  "Onward?"  A.— I  was  on  the  "On- 
ward in  l.S8ti.  On  the  25tli  May  I  left  Victoria  on  board  the 
"Favourite." 

Q. — You  started  on  board  the  "Favourite"  on  the  25th  May? 
A.— Yes. 

Q. — And  at  Kyocjuot  vou  were  transhipped  to  the  "On- 
ward?"     A.— Yes. 

Q.— Did  you  ^o  on  the  "Onward"  to  Behring  Sea  in  the 
capacity  of  cock?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Where  did  you  take  in  your  provisions?  A.— I  had 
nothing  at  all  to  do  with  taking  In  the  provisions.  The 
"Favourite"  had  brought  some  grub  for  the  "Onward." 

Q. — And  at  Kyoquot  were  there  provisions  put  on  board  tlie 
"Onward?"      A. — I  l)elieve  there  were. 

Q. — You  had  nothing  to  do  with  putting  them  on  board? 
A. — Nothing  at  all. 

Q. — As  a  matter  of  fact  did  you  hear  any  instructions  given 
as  to  how  long  the  vessel  was  to  be  provisioned  for?  A. — 
As  far  as  1  heard  from  the  captain  it  was  that  he  was  not 
authorized  to  return  until  between  the  25th  September  and 
the  Ist  October. 

Q. — You  were  supposed  to  get  back  then?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Tell  me  generally  what  class  of  provisions  you  had  on 
board?  A. — Beef,  pork,  canned  salmon,  canned  vegetables, 
as  far  as  I  can  remember,  but  of  course,  I  made  no  list  of 
them  or  had  no  list  given  to  me. 

Q. — Had  you  pilot  bread?  A.— Oh,  jes,  pilot  bread,  and 
flour,  and  butter  and  sugar  and  coffee  and  molasses  and  rice. 

Q. — As  cook,  you  had  the  management  of  the  provisions 
while  you  were  on  lioard?  A. — According  to  the  instrui;- 
tions  of  the  captain. 

Q._.Were  you  wanting  anything  or  had  you  everything  on 
the  ship?  A.— Well  we  liad  everything;  we  had  just  what 
we  wanted  to  carry  us  through.  We  had  just  as  much  as 
vou  need  for  a  seaiing  shcooner  at  the  present  time. 

Q.—Can  you  tell  me  how  many  bairels  of  corned  beef  you 
has  ou  board?      A.— I  cannot. 

Q._But  vou  had  it?       A.— Yes. 

Q.— Had  you  any  bacon?     A.— I  believe  we  had  bacon 

il — Wlieii  were  you  seized  in  Behring  Sea? 

3rd  of  August.  .  4.     r^ 

Q.— And  when  you  were  seized  you  were  taken  into  uun- 

alaska?       A.—  Yes. 

Q._How  did  vou  get  from  Ounalaska  to  Sitka.'  A.— I  Df- 
lieve  there  were  42  of  us  sent  down  on  the  schooner  San 
Diego." 

Q. 


A.— On  the 


Were  theie  auv  provisions  taken  from  your  ship  for 
■  A.— There  was  the  Navigator 


60 


anv  purpose  thitt  you  saw.       ..  ,      ,    j 

Lieul^enant  of  the  "Cot  win"  came  on  board  o"*;^  J>.v  and  asked 
for  provisions  to  take  on  board  the  steamer  'St  Paul,  and 
1  told  him  the  captain  was  not  here  just  at  that  time  and  1 
thought  to  mvself  I  did  not  know  anything  about  it  and  I 
S  better  let  him  take  it.  He  took  fl-'';^"^,  ,r""* 
things  out  of  the  vessel  and  put  it  on  the  "St.  Paul. 

Q_ra„  vou  remember  what  stuff  it  was  he  actually  did 
^„1.,.7      A.— I  cannot  exactly  remember. 


v.— He  did.  yes. 


take. 
0._-You  knew  he  look  some.' 

Q.-And  that  was  t..  go  on  board  the  "St.  Paul?' 
That  is  what  he  told  nie. 


A.— 


Q. — po  you  remember  tlu 


''St.  Paul"  sailing?      A.— 1  do. 


Q._Sh,.  sailed  before  you  left 


A.— Yes. 


Q.-And  yon  wen 


1  afterwards  in  the  "Knn  Diego? 


A.- 


-.  i 


■  !  ' 


Yes. 


•71" 


Yt's. 


894 

(Mii-liiit'l  llarkiu — Direct — Cross.) 
-And  yoH  went  up  to  Sitka  ou  the  ''San  Diego?" 


A.— 


'■ 


f 


1 


j, ! 
1/ 


l';l 


Q.— Who  went  up  with  you  on  that  vegsel?  A. — There 
were  1«  Indians  from  the  "Onward"  and  a  deck  hand  and  me 
and  Freneiiy,  tlie  mate. 

Q.— Freiuliy  was  the  mate?      A.— Yes,  and  tliere  were  two 
Indians  belouijiug  to  the  Str.  "Thornton."     There  were  about 
,Q   H)  in  all,  including:  the  white  crew  belonging  to  the  "San 
Diego,"  at  the  same  time. 

Q.— How  long  woie  you  detained  at  "Sitka?"  A.— I  was 
detained  there  until  such  time  as  the  "Corwin"  left.  I 
was  brought  down  in  the  revenue  cutter  'Corwin."  We 
were  brought  down  and  landed  at  Nanaimo. 

Q.— Who  were  brought  down  there?  A. — They  brought 
me  and  the  whiU-  crew  belonging  to  the  "San  Diego"  and  the 
18  Indians— 16  belonging  to  the  "Onward"  and  two  belongine 
to  the  "Thornton." 
20  Q.— They  brought  them  down  to  Nanaimo?  A.— Yes,  and 
landed  us  about  5  o'clock  at  night  at  Nanaimo. 

Q.— And  itut  you  on  sliore  there?  A. — Put  us  on  shore 
there  and  did  not  give  us  any  pass  to  go  to  Victoria  or  any- 
thing else.  They  landed  us  there  without  supper  or  any- 
thing. 

Q. — From  there  you  got  to  Victoria?  A. — I  thought  I 
would  go  and  report  at  the  Custom  House  and  I  saw  a  Custom 
House  ofBcer  and  he  said  he  could  dp  nothing  for  me. 

Q. — How  did  you  get  from  Nanaimo  to  Victoria?      A. — I 
30  got  down  on  the  steamer  "Amelia." 

Q. — Who  paid  your  fare?      A. — I  had  to  pay  it  myself. 

Q. — Did  you  ever  get  it  back?  A. — I  do  not  linow  whether 
it  was  ever  stopped  out  of  my  wages  or  not.  I  went  to  Capt. 
McLean's  hous*'  that  night  as  soon  as  I  got  in  and  got  f5  from 
him. 

Q. — Did  any  otliers  come  down  that  way?  A. — The  cap- 
tain gave  us  all  our  discharge,  but  I  had  to  leave  my  bag  and 
bed  and  what  I  had  as  m^cufity  for  myself. 

Q. — When  did  you  get  to  Victoria-  A. — I  got  to  Victoria 
on  the  25th  September. 

Q. — There  was  a  man  named  Nightingale  on  board  the  "On- 
ward?"     A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Do  you  know  where-  he  is?  A. — The  last  account  I 
had  from  him  he  went  to  Marselles.  France. 

Q.— That  was:  how  long  ago?      A.— 1888. 

Q.— What  position  had  he  on  the  "Onward?"  A.— He  was 
su])posed  to  be  able  seaman. 

Q.— In  188fi?      A.— Yes. 

Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Lansing: 

Q. — Mr.  Harkin,  did  any  of  tb  •  members  of  the  crew  ot  the 
"Onward"  go  on  board  the  "St.  Paul?"      A. — I  went,  sir. 

Q. — You  were  taken  off  the  "Onward"  and  taken  to  the  "St. 
Paul?"       A.— Yes. 

Q. — How  were  you  taken?      A. — I  was  taken  in  a  boat,  sir. 

Q. — Did  not  these  i)rovi8ionB  go  on  board  the  "San  Diego?" 
A. — No.  sir,  it  was  going  on  board  the  steamer  "St.  Paul,"  it 
(3u  was  supposed  to  leave  the  "Onward"  to  go  on  board  the  "St. 
Paul,"  but  it  was  neglected  by  the  captain  of  the  revenue  cut- 
ter as  it  was  supposed  to  i)e  for  the  two  white  men. 

Q. — Thc.v  took  the  provisiims  for  these  two  white  men? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — They  took  very  little  provisiosn  then?  A. — Well,  it 
was  not  a  large  amount. 

Q. — Tust  enough  for  two  men  for  about  how  long?  A. — I 
should  say  12  days. 


40 


m 


n 


lO 


895 

(Michaii  llarkiii — Ci'obs — Ki'dirett.) 

Q. — How  mmiy  Indians  did  you  have  on  board?  A. — We 
had  IG,  I  believe. 

Q.—  And  how  many  Indians  hunted  in  each  canoe?  A. — 
Two. 

Q. — Then  yon  Jiad  eiglit  canoes?  A. — I  have  kind  of  an 
idea  tliat  we  had  one  cano<*  from  Kyuquot. 

Q. — But  only  eight  hunted?  A. — I  am  not  sure  about  eight 
or  nine. 

Q. — You  had  16  Indians  and  nine  canoes?  A. — I  think  I 
remember  that  there  were  20  Indians  came  down,  because 
tliere  were  two  from  the  "Thornton." 

Q. — Twenty  altogether?  A. — Yes,  two  from  the  "TIjoiti- 
ton."      I  feel  almost  sure  that  there  were  nine  canoes  now. 

Q. — Did  not  the  Indians  bring  with  them  a  good  deal  of 
dried  fruit  and  such  food?    A. — Yes,  sir,  they  did. 

Q. — Did  they  eat  seal  meat  when  they  were  on  board?  A. 
— Yes,  sir,  they  eat  a  little. 

Q. — And  the  provisions  you  spoke  of  last,  such  as  tea, 
sugar,  and  such  things,  were  provided  for  the  white  men? 
A. — Yes,  sir,  provided  for  all  the  crew. 

Q. — Did  you  supply  the  Indians  with  it?  A. — With  tea 
and  sugar. 

Q. — And  with  canned  vegetables?  A. — No.  sir,  not  canned 
vegetables. 

Q. — And  you  supplied  the  Indians  with  beef?    A. — Yes. 

Q. — Did  jou  give  the  Indians  canned  meats?  A. — No,  sir. 
but  we  gave  them  salted  meats. 

(i. — You  supplied  them  with  salted  meats?  A. — ^Yes.  sir, 
but  not  right  straight  along. 

Q. — You  supplied  with  rice?  A. — Yes,  rice,  molasi'es  and 
sugar,  but  no  butter. 

Q. — Was  any  charge  made  to  them  for  that?  A. — No,  not 
to  my  knowledge. 

Re-direct  examination  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q. — When  you  were  taken  to  Ounalaska,  had  you  any  meat 
4°  on  board?    A. — We  had.  certainly. 

Q. — Do  you  know  what  became  of  it?    A. — I  cannot  say. 

Q. — As  a  matter  of  fact  you  had  meat  there?  A. — Yes. 
sir. 

Q.— Beef?  A.— Yes. 

Q. — Anything  else?    A. — Yes,  some  pork  and  bacon. 

Q. — And  you  do  not  know  what  became  of  it?  A. — I  did 
not. 

Q. — Did  the  captain  of  the  ''Corwin."  or  any  of  his  officers 
take  an  inventory  of  the  goods  while  you  were  there?  A. — 
Not  while  I  was  there. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  want  to  put  in  evidence  in  this  case  the 
record  of  the  conviction  of  Daniel  Monroe  at  Sitka. 

Received  and  marked  "Exhibit  No.  :?5,  (1.  B.,  Claim  No.  3." 

Mr.  Peters: — 1  also  wish  to  put  in  the  same  case  the  convic- 
tion of  Marketich. 


30 


50 


60 


Received  and  marked  "Exhibit  :«!,  (J.  B.,  Claim  No.  3." 

I  want  to  |,(it  in  also  copy  of  the  appearance  of  the  "On- 
ward" which  has  be<'!i  fiiinuln  d  by  my  learned  friend. 

I  wish  also  to  put  in  the  whole  libel  against  the  "Onward," 
and,  es|H»cially,  I  want  to  call  attention  to  the  amended  libel 
at  i»age  L'8  of  the  MK.  I  think  it  would  1m'  well  U>  put  a  por- 
tion of  it  on  the  notes,  and  the  rest  need  not  then  go  ou  thQ 
notes. 


I 


11 

if 


IP 


rf 


1  1 

H 

i    ■ 


W  ' 


III! 


■i!    I 


I  ;! 


10 


20 


3<^ 


40 


896 


That  ('.  A.  Abbey,  an  otti('«>r  of  the  Kevenue  Maiinc  Service 
of  I'nlted  States,  in  counnand  of  the  I'nited  States  revenue 
cutter  "Corwin,"  and  on  special  duty  in  tlie  waters  of  the 
District  of  Alnslia,  heretofore,  to-wit,  on  the  2nd  day  of  Aur- 
usl,  18H(!,  witliin  tlie  limits  of  Alaska  territory,  and  in  the 
waters  thereof,  and  within  the  civil  and  judicial  District  of 
Alaska,  to  wit:  within  (he  waters  of  that  portion  of  Hehrin^ 
Sea  belonfjiuf?  to  the  I'nited  States  and  said  district,  on  wa- 
ers  navifjable  from  the  sea  by  vessels  of  ten  or  more  tons 
burden,  seized  the  schooner  "Onward,"  her  tackle,  apparel, 
boatfl,  cargo  and  furniture,  beinp  tlie  property  of  some  person 
or  persons  unknown  to  said  attorney;  the  said  property  is 
more  particularly  described  as  follows,  to-wit. 

I  want  to  call  attention  to  tliat  particularly. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — You  have  put  in  the  inventory  before  it 
need  not  be  printed  twice 

Mr.  Peters: — It  will  be  printed  in  the  Exhibit,  and  it  need 
not  po  in  the  Record. 

Document  received  and  marked  "Exhibit  .'17,  G.  B.,  Claim 
No.  V 

Q. — I  wish  to  call  attention  also  to  the  following  evidence 
of  this  Exhibit : 

John  M.  Rliodes  being  duly  sworn  deposes  and  sfiys: 

"Q. — State  your  nnme,  iige  and  occnpatidu?  A. — .Tohn  M. 
Rhodes.  Lieut.  V.  S.  Revenue  Marine,  at  present  on  the  U.  S. 
Revenue  Steamer  Corwin,  and  over  the  age  of  21  years. 

''Q. — Was  any  otlier  i)rop«'rty  sei/,<'d  upon  the  schncner 
'Onward,'  except  what  is  inclu«1ed  in  the  general  inventory? 
A. — There  was  a  box  containing  clothing  and  nautical  Instru- 
ments. The  box  was  marked  Daniel  Monroe,  Master  of  the 
schoner  "Onward." 

"(2. — What  was  done  with  tliis  jii'operty?  \. — I  turned  it 
over  to  the  T'nited  States  marshal  at  Sitka  and  it  is  now  in 
his  custody. 

The  Commissioners  took  recess  at  one  o'clock. 


50 


At  half-past  two  o'clock  the  Commissioners  resumed  their 
seats. 

Mr.  Peters: — T  wish  the  following  to  be  transferred  from 
the  "Carolcna"  case  to  this  case; 

The  whole  of  llie  evidence  of  the  mate  Marketich  to  be 
found  at  pages  71  to  SO. 

The  evidence  of  Munsie  as  to  the  i-ate  of  interest  charged. 

The  evidence  <»f  John  (iraham  Cox  at  page  140,  introduc- 
60  tion  and  his  evidence  as  to  value  and  cost  of  vessels. 

The  evidence  of  John  J.  Robertson,  page  155,  as  to  the  cost 
l)er  ton  of  building  vessels  at  Victoria. 

The  whole  of  the  evidence  of  U.  F.  Seiwald,  to  be  found  at 
page  157; 

The  whole  of  tlie  .'videnre  ef  William  Tiirpel  to  be  f<)uu' 
at  page  Ififi; 

The  whole  of  the  evidence  (»f  Samuel  Mc(?ulloch  Smith, 
beginning  at  page  191; 


^ 


lO 


?o 


30 


40 


so 


60 


897 

(TL>Htiiiiuu,y  TmnHftTi-ed  From  Other  Claiius.) 

The  whole  of  the  evidence  of  John  Habiston  beginni^-  at 
page  2U8; 

The  whole  of  the  evidence  of  John  Clark,  beginning  at  page 
212; 

An  extract  from  the  Record  of  the  Governor  of  Alaska,  be 
ginning  at  page  221; 

The  whole  of  the  evidence  of  A.K.  Milne,  beginning  at  page 
221; 

The  whole  of  the  evidence  of  J.  I).  Warren,  taken  at  page 
227;  also  liis  evidence  on  page  27!(  and  following,  and  page 
314  and  following; 

The  whole  of  the  evidence  of  C.  Spring,  taken  to  page  240; 

The  whole  of  the  evidence  of  William  Itragg,  beginning  on 
page  2?2;  also  the  same  witness  on  page  25J);  also  the  same 
witness  on  page  332; 

Also  snch  parts  of  the  evidence  of  Andrew  Laing  as  were 
used  in  the  case  of  the  "Carolena"  at  pjtge  270; 

The  evidence  of  Victor  Jacobson.  beginning  at  page  274; 

The  evidence  of  William  O'Leary,  beginning  at  pnge  21tO; 

The  evidence  of  Emil  Kamilas,  beginning  at  page  2!>8; 

The  whole  of  the  evidence  of  Gustave  Hansen,  beginning 
at  page  301 ; 

The  various  cliarts  referred  to,  being  Exhibits  2i,  22,  23, 
24  and  25  in  the  "Carolena"  case; 

The  whole  of  the  evidence  of  Alexander  Keppen,  beginning 
on  page  306; 

The  whole  of  the  evidence  of  Charles  A.  Goffln,  beginning 
on  page  316 ; 

The  whole  of  the  evidence  of  William  Douglas  Byers,  be- 
ginning at  page  317; 

The  whole  of  the  evidence  of  Charles  Auguste  Lundberg, 
beginning  at  page  321; 

The  whole  of  the  evidence  of  Robert  McKeil,  beginning  at 
page  326; 

The  whole  of  the  evidence  of  Neil  Moss,  beginning  at  page 
334; 

The  evidence  of  C.  Spinng,  ^jiven  at  page  344; 

The  whole  of  the  evidence  of  Percival  R.  Brown,  beginning 
at  page  355. 

I  also  wish  to  use  in  this  case  all  the  expert  evidence  on  the 
qu««8tion  of  the  sinking  of  seal'-i;  a!«o  all  the  evidence  as  in 
the  average  catch  that  was  gi'.en  in  the  "Carolena"  case — in 
fact  all  the  evidence  that  waogivj'rt  out  of  its  order  so  far  as 
it  is  applicable  to  this  case,  wliicli  I  am  not  able  I0  nnme 
specifically  on  account  of  its  not  being  printed. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Tliis 
is  going  to  i»ut  great  labour  on  counsel,  and  of  course,  as  we 
go  along  it  will  increase  in  i.ttio.  I'erliaps  we  may  be 
thought  to  be  more  than  human,  but,  so  far  as  I  am  concern- 
ed, 1  believe  it  will  l)e  very  hard  to  keep  out  of  our  minds  in 
one  case  evidence  on  certain  general  topics  in  other  cases. 
I  woiild  suggest,  on  my  own  behalf,  and  without  having  con- 
sulted Judge  King,  that  it  would  be  well  to  prepare  a  gen- 
eral order  with  regard  to  the  evidence  on  certain  topics. 

Mr.  Peters: — A  great  deal  of  this  evidence  might  be  omit- 
ted if  it  were  understood  that  counsel  in  the  written  argu- 
ments might  advert  to  any  evidence  they  like  introduced  in 
the  diffei-ent  cases.  This  would  be  worse  on  us  than  on  the 
other  side,  because  we  will  have  to  start  the  argument  and 
begin  with  our  written  argument  first. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  j)art  of  the  United  States: — The 
record  must  be  made  with  great  accuracy  under  the  terms  of 
57 


'  i  •■ 


1  L 


n 

"  I- 

.  i 


1 

f 

l'i<  ^ 

\i'  \ 

i! 

1 

' 

1;     ';  'I'l 

'-1 

i 

' 

r 


(UiseuHHioii.) 

tho  Convention.  It  occurs  to  uu>  ttiat  counsel  nilght  consult 
together,  and  possibly  arran^o  some  way  out  of  the  difllcul- 
ties  which  1  si'e  will  crop  up. 


Mr.  Peters: — We  can 
Belves. 


discuss  that  matter  between  our- 


20 


nm 


m-\ 


,1  i  11 
"  11 : 


30 


40 


60 


The  case  of  the  I'nited  States  of  America  In  answer  to  the 
claim  of  Great  Britain  in  the  matter  of  the  "Onward," 
Claim  No.  3. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — It  is  jierhaps  duo  to  the  United  States  to 
say  that  the  counsel  of  that  goveniment  have  iM'en  very 
preatly  iini)r(>s8ed  with  the  ko<k1  faith  and  fairness  of  the 
cliiimant  in  preseiitinfj  his  claim.  We  shall  do  little  more 
than  our  duty  in  putting  in  here  some  matters  that  may  aid 
the  testimony  <j;iven  by  this  claimant  in  enabling  the  Com- 
missioners to  arrive  at  a  ]troi)(>r  assessment — that  is  so  far 
as  the  value  of  the  ship  and  prop«>rty  seized  is  concerned — 
the  perscmal  claim  stands  upon  a  different  footing  so  far  as 
this  "Onward"  claim  is  conc«'rned.  I  may  add  to  what  T  have 
stated  that  it  is  a  matter  of  regret  to  the  counsel  of  the 
T'nited  States  that  this  claim  cannot  be  more  promptly  dis- 
posed of,  and  the  owners,  whoever  they  are,  as  the  Commis- 
sioners find,  coiiijiensated  more  promptly  than  is  possiltlc  un- 
der the  circumstances. 

We  desire  to  transfer  the  cross-examination  of  the  wit- 
nesses named  by  my  leanu>d  friend,  and  which  is  obviously 
ap)>licable — to  borrow  the  felicitous  i)lirase  of  my  leanied 
friend — I  desire  also  to  transfer  the  testimony  bciii-iny;  on  the 
probable  catch  and  value,  and  the  general  testimony  of  Mr. 
Alexander,  Cai)tain  Miner,  Captain  Kaymtr  and  <'aptain 
Alexander  McLean,  with  the  cross-examination  of  the  Brit- 
ish counsel  upon  some  >;eneral  subjects  as  to  the  valuation; 
incidental  evidence  will  be  {ifiven  if  your  Honours  hold  a  ses- 
sion in  San  Francisco;  evidenic  will  also  be  ffiven  there  as  to 
the  probable  catch;  we  would  desire  to  jtut  in  in  this  case 
the  same  part  of  the  Becord  that  was  put  in  in  the  "Car- 
olena"  case  showinj;  the  dates  of  the  oidinary  dismisstil — just 
what  was  put  in  in  the  "Candena"  case  fr<mi  the  pi-inted 
records;  that  would  naturally  bear  on  the  question  of  prob- 
able catch.  I  wish  to  jnit  in  further  the  certitlcate  of  the 
T'nited  States  Circuit  Court  for  the  District  of  Massachus- 
setts  of  the  citizenship  of  Alexander  McLean. 

Mr.  Peters:— What  date? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — December,  18H:».  This  can  only  bear  in 
our  view  at  present  on  one  moiety  of  this  claim;  we  deem  it 
our  duty  to  put  it  in.  but  whatever  disposition  may  be  made 
of  the  case,  we  shall  certainly  recommend  that  our  Govern- 
ment compensate  the  owners  as  they  may  apjtear  by  this 
Record. 

Mr.  Peters: — I  wish  to  tender  an  objection.  To  reserve 
my  rights  in  this  matter  I  wish  to  tender  a  formal  objection 
to  that  document  being  jtut  in  evidence;  as  a  matter  of 
course  it  is  an  important  one,  and  I  merely  wish  to  reserve 
my  rights  for  argument  hereafter. 

Paper  receiv-:'d  and  marked  "Exhibit  No.  5  (I^S.)  Claim 
No.  ,?. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — We  desire  to  transfer  whatever  has  been 
said  by  Captain  Raynor  heretofore  u]»on  the  treatment  of  the 
prisoners,  but  Captain  Raynor  has  not  testified  in  this  case 
specially  as  to  Captain  Monroe,  or  as  to  valuation, 


#1 


20 


8yy 

(Cliarlt'H  U.  Raynor — Diri'rt.) 

<'harl«'»  I),   llnynoi;  n   witiiuHs  pn'viousl.v  t>xaiiiiiu'<l,  waH 
called  oil  tlio  piirt  of  llii'  I'liitcd  HtatoH. 

l>irt'(;t  cxainiiiutioii  by  Mr.  Warn'ii: 

Q. — All  that  yon  have  said  in  tlic  caHc  of  tho  "Oaroh-na" 

with  rcfmiMU*'  to  tlic  Ircatnicnt  of  liu-  (■a])tainH  and  niatt'H  at 

Kitlta  and  Onnalanka  a|*]>lii'H  ciiiially  to  tiu>  Captain  of  tlio 

*°   "t)nward" — Daaiol  Monro*' — as  wt-ll  as  to  the  otlu>r  prison- 

erH?      A. — \vH.  sir,  the  Hann>. 

Q. — Was  tht'H'  any  distinction  as  it'ftards  Captain  Monroo, 
in  th«»  niattor  of  troatntcnt?      A. — \o.  sir,  none  whatever. 

Q. — Do  vou  vonrself  remember  Captain  Monroe?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q. — Was  lie  confined  on  board  his  ship  at  Onnalaska?  A. 
—No,  sir. 

Q._Or  at  Sitka?      A.— No,  sir. 

Q. — And  with  reference  to  the  time  when  he  chanK<'d  his 
l»laoe  of  sle<'pin«  from  tlie  boat  to  the  court  house — does  the 
same  fact  apply  to  him  as  with  reference  to  the  others?  A. — 
Yes.  just  the  same. 

Q._ThHt  1*«  bi'fore  the  trial,  he  voluntarily  began  to  sleep 
in  the  court  house?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — He  was  tried  about  the  same  time  as  the  others?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — It  appears  from  tlie  record  that  a  tine  was  impos<'d 
upon  him.      Do  yoii  know  .is  a  matter  of  fact  whether  he  paid 
30   the  fine?      A. — No,  sir;  he  did  not. 

Q. — TTe  waR  discharged  of  the  tine?      A. — "^'es,  sir. 

Mr.  Peters: — The  record  is  the  test  of  all  this.  W«*  ask- 
ed for  the  T^nited  States  records,  and  they  have  given  them 
to  nn;  I  object  to  this  evidence;  it  is  perfectly  impossible  that 
this  witness  should  know  whether  Captain  Monroe  paid  the 
fine,  or  whether  he  did  not  pay. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  T'nited  States: — Do 
Q  you  allege  that  he  paid  the  fine? 

Mr.  Peters: — We  make  no  allegation  about  it. 

Sir  C.  H.  Tupper: — We  simply  say  that  there  was  a  tine. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  j)art  of  the  United  States: — Then 
they  do  not  allege  that  he  paid  the  fine. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — No,  they  leave  it  on  the  record  that  he 

was  fined,   and,   of   course,   the   record   would   not   disclose 

whether  the  fine  was  paid  or  not. 

50 

Mr.  Peters: — This  witness  cannot  be  put  in  a  position  to 

show  the  fine  was  remitted. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — Do 
you  claim  that  the  man  was  fined  f:{()(),  and  that  he  paid  his 
fine? 

Mr.  Peters; — I  do  not,  !  never  did  claim  it. 

The  (Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States: — What 
"°    is  the  use  of  going  into  it  then?       Take  that  admission  as 
placed  on  record — that  is  suflHcient. 

Direct  examination  continued  by  Mr.  Warren: 

Q. — There  was  something  said  this  morning  about  a  sum 
of  SSO  which  C;i]>(aiii  MonrtM-  deliAcied  to  the  oltit(>i  (if  tin- 
*'Corwin,"  which  it  was  stated  was  delivered  by  the  officer  of 
the  "Corwin"  to  the  Marshal.      Will  you  tell  the  Commin- 


1  i 

I    :, 

.    ■    t. 


r 

;    ■ 

1  i 


l\l    III 


m 


'!'•  1 


M!l:i 


10 


20 


30 


i:! 


900 

(('hmh'B  1).  Kayiioi— Oin'ct— CroHH.) 

HioniMH  wliat  3<Mi  kii«»w  about  tliat?  A.— I'aptnln  Moni'(»u 
Haid  that  he  woiiM  trivf  tlu"  nwnvy  to  the  ofll«(!r  of  tho  "(?or- 
wiii,"  aiwl  Im'  timifd  It  »>v»>r  to  tlM*  MaiMhal.  and  lu-  told  iii«' 
afttTwardH  that  the  Mai-Hhal  had  jjivcn  him  hack  the  moin-.v. 
Ak  a  inatttT  of  fact  I  borrowed  flO  out  of  tho  money  mywif. 
(J.-  Tliat  wan  at  Sitka?      A.— Yen. 

Q. — And  then  the  "San  IHcj^o."  of  wiii<"h  .von  wtTf  captain, 
took  the  Indian  en  w  of  the  "Onward"  down  to  Sitka?  A.— 
Yt'H,  Hlr. 

Q. — And  the  proviHioiiK  were  tran«ferrcd  from  tho  "On- 
ward" to  vonr  boat  for  tho  pnrpoHO  of  pnp])ortinK  those  In- 
dians?     A. — Y08,  sir. 

Q. — Win  yon  toll  ns  what  provisions  wore  fnkon  on  Hoard 
your  boat,  tlio  "San  THejjo,"  from  the  "Onward?"  A. — There 
were  2  boxes  of  bread,  'A  sacks  of  tlonr,  '2  small  sid«'8  of  ba- 
con, a  case  of  canned  to]nato<'s  and  a  barrel  and  a  half  of 
salted  soul  meat. 

Q. — You  wore  on  board  tho  "Onward"  in  the  harbour  of 
Ounalaska?      A. — Yes.  sir.  I  was. 

ii. — Had  you  hih'U  lier  bofoi-o  you  had  wmmi  her  ''i  Oun- 
alaska? A. — YoH.  sir,  I  had  seen  her  a  ifreat  many  tlnu's 
when  she  was  owned  in  San  Francisco. 

Q. — Did  you  have  a  knowlodgo  of  the  Roneral  condition 
of  the  "Onward"  at  that  time?    A.— Yes.  sir,  I  think  I  did. 

Q. — Did  you  know  at  that  time  about  what  tonnage  she 
was?  A. — I  cannot  exactly  say  what  her  tonrapo  was,  but 
I  would  judRo  it  to  be  from  25  to  .10  tons. 

Q. — You  knew  tho  boat  in  general  and  tho  size  of  her?  A. 
— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  would  von  consider  tho  njarket  value  of  the  "On 
ward"  in  1880  at  tile  port  of  San  Francisco?     A.— ?•_"»'>(». 

Q. — You  think  she  was  worth  more  than  the  "<"arol<  iia"? 
A . — Yes.  » 

Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Peters: 

il. — Your  idea  was  she  was  worth  |2,()0(>?     A. — Yes. 
Q. — What  was  her  tonnage?     A. — Between  25  and  :{0  tons, 
I  should  think. 

Q. — Do  you  know  her  tonnage?     A. — Not  exactly. 
Q. — Yes  or  no,  do  you  know  her  tonnage?      A. — IJotwoen 
2.T  and  .'{0  tons,  I  think. 

Q. — Do  you  know  her  exact  tonnage?     A. — I  said  I  did  not. 
(J.— What  condition  was  she  in  in  18H<J?     A.— She  was  in 
vorv  fair  condition. 

(i.— Did  you  set;  her  in  18S(J?     A.— I  did. 
(f.—AVhere?    A.— in  0\inalaska. 

(}.— Were  her  sails  new  or  old?  A.— I  think  the  sails  were 
new;  that  is  I  sujtpose  tliey  had  been  bent  that  spring  the 
most  of  thoni. 

Q.—Do  you  sujipose  they  were  nt>w  sails?     A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q. — Was   she   in  good   condition  otherwise?     A. — I   think 
she  was;  yes. 

Q._Was  she  or  was  she  not?  A.— Yes,  she  was  in  good 
«ondition. 

Q. — Were  you  on  boai'd  her?     A. — I   was. 
Q._After  "she  was  seized?     A.— Yes. 

Q._Aftor  she  was  hauled  up  on  tho  shore?  A.— No,  sir, 
she  was  Iving  at  anchor  when  I  saw  her. 

Q.—Wllat  part  of  her  were  yon  on?  A.— 1  was  on  her 
deck  and  in  her  cabin.  .        „      , 

Q._Sho  was  only  worth  f2,0(l(»?  A.— That  is  all  sho 
would  be  worth  in  San  Francisco. 

Q._n..w  do  you  know  that?  A.— That  is  what  1  would 
judge  sho  would  bo  worth  in  Sun  Francisco, 


40 


50 


60 


I        -i: 


lO 


(J0{ 
(CImilcH  I).  Hii.vndi  — < 'roHM.      CIihiIi'h  HihIiik— Diml.) 

(i.—How  do  you  know  It?  A.— Fi«»iii  wciiiK  otlici-  v»'hwI» 
Hold. 

ti.— Wlu'ii  (lid  you  i!(  «•  nny  gold  in  1MM»  to  your  knowh'dK*'? 
A.— I  don't  know  that  I  Mcon  nny  Hold  in  IMMt;. 

<i.— WtTi'  tiiiT*'  any  Hold  in  1«««  to  your  knowledge?    A.— 

Y«'8. 

Q.— WImt  vchbHh?    a. — I  ain't  t«'ll  you  their  names. 

ti. — fan  yon  tell  nie  the  name  of  one  veKMel?      A. --No. 

(i.— Sure?     A.— Sure. 

(j.— Can  you  tell  me  the  tonnage  of  one  that  was  sold?  A. 
— No,  sir,  not  "ertain. 

ti.— Or  witliia  5  or  l(t  touH?     A.— I  don't  reeall  tliem. 

il. — What  liad  you  to  do  with  tlie  sale,  or  purchuHe,  of  any 
veHHcl  in  IMHO  iu  Wan  FraneiHeo?     A. — Nothing  at  all. 

(i. — How  do  you  know  what  the  HelliuK  price  was?  A. — 
From  talk  and  general  report. 

Q. — From  wlume  talk?  A. — Well  a  >;reat  nmny  different 
20   perHoiiH'  talk,  from  men  buying  veHHeln  and  Helling  them. 

Q. — Can  you  name  one?       A. — I  eannot  name  one  now. 

(i. — Ho  that  your  knowledge  of  the  value  of  a  veHHel  in  Han 
FranciKeo.  in  ISHtJ,  dependn  on  tlie  talk  of  Home  jM'ople,  and 
you  cannot  tell  (»ne,  or  name  ont' — is  that  true?  A. — Yes, 
that  in  true. 

Q._PoeHn't  it  Htrike  you  that  that  information  is  very  valu- 
able?     I  Hhall  leave  you  at  that,  captain. 


30 


Mr.  Dickinwm: 
tain. 


-We  are  e(|ually  watiHtled  with  that,  ca|»- 


Mr.  PeterH: — Mr.  DickiiiHon  han  rained  for  the  first  time 
in  this  case,  the  statement  that  Alexander  McLean  was  an 
American  citizen;  I  want  to  prove  for  what  it  is  worth  that 
^fr.  Hpring  knew  nothing  about  tlie  American  citizenship  of 
McLean.      As  a  fact  he  first  ascertained  that  recently. 


M 


40 


Charles  Spring,  n  witness  on  the  [Miit  of  Oi<eat  Britain,  re- 
cnlled. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — What  is  this  witness  going  to  prove? 

Mr.  Peters: — I  want  to  ask  him  a  <|ue8tion  as  to  McLean's 
.American  citi/.enshi]). 

Tht>  Commissioner  on  the  jmrt  of  tlu'  United  States: — It 
50   is  sim])ly  to  remove  an  impression  that  may  arise. 

Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q. — As  a  matter  of  fact,  Mr.  Hpring,  when  did  you  first  as- 
certain, or  hear,  that  Alexander  McLean  was  an  American 
citizen?  A. — I  had  no  idea  of  that  until  I  arrived  from  the 
west  coast  in  November. 

Q.— That  is  last  November?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — In  18S0  had  you  any  idea  of  such  a  thing?  A. — None 
60   whatever. 

Q. — Nor  had  ,von  nny  means  of  knowing  anything  of  the 
kind?  A. — I  knew  nothing  of  the  kind  and  never  both«'r<Hl 
myself  making  enquiry  about  it. 

Q. — This  ship  at  that  time  was  not  registered  in  your  name? 
A.— No. 

Q. — Was  the  register  ever  chnnRed  from  ^Villiam  Sprine 
&  Co.,  until  after  the  loss,  as  a  matter  of  fact?  A. — It  was 
after  the  loss. 


-i  I 


III 


r  i 


902 

(diaries  Spring — Direct — Cross.) 

Q. — Had  that  anything  to  do  with  the  American  citizen- 
ship? A. — Not  to  my  knowledge,  I  had  no  idea  of  anything 
of  that  sort. 

Q. — So  far  as  yon  are  concerned,  did  you  know  where  Mr. 
McT^ean  came  from?  A. — 1  had  heard  that  he  came  from 
Cape  Breton  Island,  that  is  all. 

Q. — And  so  far  as  his  American  citizenship  was  concerned 
jQ  yon  knew  nothing  whatever?       A. — Nothing  whatever. 

Q.— lentil   lately?       A.— Lately. 

Q. — Was  there  any  object  in  yonr  transferring  the  vessel 
from  the  name  of  William  Spring?  A. — No  particular  rea- 
son.     It  was  just  a  matter  done  in  the  course  of  business. 

(■i. — It  rem.iined  in  exactlv  the  same  position  until  after 
lSSt>?       .\.— Yes. 

Q. — And  it  was  transferred  to  your  name  as  appears  from 
the  record,  and  to  what  other  name?      A. — Mr.  Daniel  Mc- 
Lean. 
20       Q.— In  188G?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — At  whose  suggestion  was  the  name  of  Daniel  McLean 
put  in?  A. — I  was  under  the  impression  that  it  was  Alex- 
ander McLean's  until  lately. 

Q. — Did  you  have  anything  to  do  with  the  business  of  Mc- 
Lean?     A. — No,  it  was  put  in  the  hands  of  other  people. 

Q. — The  bare  fact  stands  that  whether  McLean  was  an 
American  citizen  or  not  .vou  never  knew  about  it  until  last 
November?      A. — I  knew  nothing  at  all  whatever  about  it. 

30       Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Dickinson: 

Q. — Are  you  not  ?uistaken  about  that,  and  had  you  not  re- 
<iuested  to  have  the  boat  j»ut  in  the  name  of  Daniel  McLean 
iH'cause  Daniel  was  a  Biitish  subject  and  Alexander  was 
not?  A. — 1  have  no  recollection  of  it  whatever,  it  may  be 
so,  but  it  has  passed  my  mind;  I  can  only  state  that  I  have 
no  recollection  of  it. 

Q. — And  that  in  your  original  formation  of  parlDcrship  the 
transfer  of  t!ie  ships  was  not  under  discu.ssion,  and  it  was  nov 
decidf^d  then  io  have  Hie  title  tak«'n  out  of  the  name  of 
Spring  &  Co.,  becansi*  Alexander  ^I<Lean  was  an  American 
subject?  A. — I  do  not  remember.  I  have  not  the  faintest  re 
collection   of  it. 

Q. — Might  that  have  occurred?  A. — It  might  have  occur- 
red, but  I  would  not  say  it  did. 

Q. — You  never  knew  Daniel  McLean  in  the  matter  did  you? 
A. — No,  it  seem"d  to  nie  that  this  was  only  a  matter  of  late 
occurrence  unlil  it  canu'  to  my  mind. 

Q. — Did  you  know  of  the  putting  of  the  title  in  the  name 
50   of  Daniel  McLean?      A.— I  can't  say  that  I  did. 

Q. — You  signed  yonr  own  bill  of  sale?  A. — I  did  so  in  the 
presence  of  other  pcojde. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Is 
this  the  end  of  your  case,  Mr.  Peters? 

Mr.  Peters: — This  is  practically  the  end.  your  Honour. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — We  have  claimed  the  light  to  put  in  evi- 
dence in  San  Francisco,  and  to  reserve  our  case  for  that;  we 
(^  will  try  to  get  the  witnesses  her(>  if  we  can,  and,  if  so,  Ae  ■will 
examine  them,  so  as  to  save  time,  if  not  we  will  have  to  go 
to  San  Francisco:  or  rather  it  may  be  necessary  to  suggest 
to  your  Honours  to  go  to  San  Francisco;  we  are,  however,  us- 
ing our  endeavor  to  get  all  the  testimony  we  can  in  hert. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  Cnited  Scites:--! 
suj»itose  you  will  be  prei)ared  to  rebut  then. 

Mr.  Peters: — 1  presume  so. 


40 


(Tliointon  Olaim.) 

Thi"  hearing  of  tlio  elaim  of  tlie  "Thornton,"  Claim  No   JJ 
was  1  lu>n  r<*sunied.  ' 

Sir  C.  n.  TupiM'r:— My  friend  Mr.  Dickinson  lias  b. good 

onouRli  to  di8|jenst'  wifi)  tlie  formal  proof  of  tlie  original  no- 
hvy  of  insurancv  at  Lloyds  wliicli  I  have  in  the  case  of  the 
'Thornton."      I  have  also  shown  him  a  siMtcmetiv  of  the  Jinn 

j^  of  I'liman  and  Edwards,  brokers,  showinfr  the  imiount  of  the 
premuims  paid,  and  the  retarnn  .,f  preminnis  i)i  (he  ca«e  of 
this  ship.  I  tender  these  policies  coverin<r  the  jteriod  from 
November,  1885,  down  to  after  the  time  or  lli.»  seizure;  tlu' 
policies  are  dated  Ifh  November,  l'^,*.^,  _>,*il!  Febriiai-y,  ].8<r,. 
J  St  March,  1880,  and  the  28th  June,  188!!.  Th.-.v  are  thr«>J 
original  and  one  certitied  i-opy;  they  are  cm  tlie  hn:',  and  also 
on  the  treasure,  or  cargo.  With  these  I  will  tender  ilie  wtale- 
ment  which  I  showed  to  my  learned  friend,  it  was  mside  by 
the  brokers,  and  certifled  to  by  them,  and  I  hav-?  informed  my 

20  learned  friend  that  I  communicated  with  London  for  Ihesi' 
documents,  and  which  came  out  direct  in  answei-  to  my  re- 
quest, RiviuK  what  is  the  total  amount  on  the  vessel  She 
is  valued  at  |6,000. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — What  is 
the  amount  insured  on  the  vessel? 

Sir  V.  H.  Tapper: — The  amount  of  insurance  on  the  veshcl 
altoj?ether  is  £1,200  and  (m  the  cargo  £1,000. 

30  The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — I 
suppose  you  mean  by  the  "cargo"  the  catch? 

Sir  C.  H.  Tapper:— Yes. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States:— Was 
it  an  annual  policy? 

Sir  (1  H.  Tapper:— It  covei-ed  a  year  round  for  twelvo 
months. 

4  The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Ma jesty :— What  is 
the  rate  on  the  cargo? 

Sir  C.  H.  Tupper:— Fifty  shillings  on  the  one  hundred 
pound!.-  sterling. 

Documents  received  and  marked  "P:xhibits  38,  3J),  40,  41 
and  42,  G.  R.,  (Maim  No.  2." 

Sir  (J.  H.  Tupper: — I  would  suggest  that  my  learned  friend 
50  and  myself  should  consult  together,  and  see  what  part  of 
these  exhibits  need  be  pnnted,  and  what  i>art  need  not  be 
jtriuted. 

I  iM'g  to  have  tibnl  the  lecord  in  the  case  of  the  United 
States  V.  Harry  Norman. 

Documei :t  received  and  marked  "Exhibit  43,  (G.  B.),  Claim 
No.  2." 

Sir  C.  H.  Tui.per:-!  beg  also  to  have  tiled  tlie  case  of 
the  United  States  v.  Hans  (iuttormsen. 

Document  received  and  marked  "Exhibit  44,  ((J.  H.),  Claim 
No.  2." 

y.r.  Dickinson:— Wt>  wish  to  have  recoi-ded  our  objection 
to  any  claim  for  (iuttormsen,  or  any  liability.  He  is  de- 
ceased. 

Sir  (\  H.  Tupper:— My  friends  were  good  enough  to  yive 
lis  a  copy  of  c<>rtain  pajK-rs  in  reference  to  th(>  main  record 


f 

r, ' , 


■11 


fl] 


904 
(J.  D.  Wnrren— Direct.) 

which  I  hold  in  my  hand,  and  all  of  these  I  would  tender  for 
what  they  are  worth.  I  make  special  reference  to  pages  1  to 
17.  inclusive,  and  pages  22  to  25,  inclusive. 

Keceived  and  marked  Exhibit  45  (Q.  B.)  Claim  No.  2. 


i  I 


i- 

Ifnl    j 


iMH 


20 


30 


10 

J.  D.  Warren  was  recalled  as  a  witness  on  the  part  of 
Oreat  Britain. 

Sir  C.  H.  Tupptn*: — I  desire  it  to  be  noted  in  this  case  that 
the  witness  having  already  been  sworn  and  examined  in  the 
case  of  the  "Oarolena,"  that  such  part  of  his  evidence,  ex- 
cept that  which  is  obviously  inapplicable,  be  considered  as 
tiiinsferi-ed  to  tlie  record  of  the  "Thoniton''  case. 

Direct  examination  by  Sir  C.  H.  Tupper: 

Q. — Captain  Warren,  you  acquired  a  half  interest  in  a 
sloop  called  the  "Thornton"  in  18G4,  I  believe?  A.— Yes,,  in 
1864. 

Q. — At  what  rate  did  you  buy  into  that?  A.— At  either 
|11,800,  or  11,850,  f  1,800  I  "believe. 

Q. — And  you  acquired  a  second  half  Isiter?    A. — Later. 

Q. — When  was  it  that  the  sloop  was  turned  into  a  sclioon 
cr?     A. — In  January.  1877. 

Q. — What  work  was  done  upon  her  for  that  purpose?  A. 
— Well,  the  principal  thing  was  making  new  masts. 

Q. — And  ciuinging  the  rigging?  .\. — And  making  places 
for  tlie  nmsts  and  changing  the  rigging  and  sails. 

Q. — What  sort  of  material  was  she  built  of?  A. — In  the 
first  place,  frame  of  white  oak,  natun.l  crooks,  her  bottom 
was  cedar  planking,  and  the  rest  of  the  vessel  was  Douglas 
fir  they  call  it. 

Q. — After  you  had  changed  her  into  a  schooner  you  went 
40  out  for  a  spring  sealing  trip?    A. — Yes. 

Q. — After  that  what  did  you  do  to  the  vessel  when  the  trip 
was  over?  A. — When  I  came  back  I  had  her  hauled  up  on 
Cook's  ways,  and  had  her  taken  to  pieces,  and  rebuilt. 

Q. — Briefly  sl;ile  what  Avas  done  to  tJie  ship  at  that  time? 
A. — In  the  first  place  when  I  hauled  her  out  I  took  and  put  in 
new  deck  frames  and  decks,  and  got  new  knees,  and  when  I 
went  to  overhaul  the  planking  1  found  there  was  a  good 
many  of  these  cedar  seams  that  were  gone  on  the  inside,  we 
had  started  in  taking  simie  of  them  off,  then  I  consulted  with 
S^  the  carpenters  and  made  a  contract  with  them  to  put  in  a 
new  frame  and  take  the  planking  all  off.  They  were  to  put 
in  a  new  frame  betwe<»n  each  of  the  frames,  and  to  replank 
her. 

ti- — Were  fhere  new  decks  put  in?  A. — The  new  decks 
were  jtut  in  before. 

Q. — And  your  new  deck  beams  were  put  in  at  the  time  of 
the  new  decks?  A. — Yes.  I  put  them  in  by  day  work,  both 
the  beams  and  the  decks. 

Q. — That  was  before  the  spring  trip?  A. — No,  that  was 
after  the  spring  trip  I  did  this  part  of  it;  then  I  found  it 
would  l)e  belter  to  put  in  new  frauu's — after  I  had  dime  so 
much  for  her  I  Ihonght  if  would  be  lietter  to  make  her  the 
-'ifie  as  a  new  vessel. 

'^ — Make  a  complete  job  of  it?    A. — Yes. 

<i— What  sort  of  fastening  had  she?  A. — We  fastened 
her  with  cop|»er,  that  is  the  planking  from  just  about  the 
water  line  down,  the  rest  was  ircm. 


60 


20 


905 

(J.  D.  Wunen— Direct.) 

Q. — Was  slie  coppered?     A. — Yes,  we  coppered  her  then. 

Q. — What  did  this  work  cost  you  about?  A. — It  cost  about 
f3,500. 

Q. — Does  tliat  include  your  own  time?A. — No. 

Q. — Did  you  give  your  own  time,  if  so,  in  wliat  way  did  you 
give  it  to  tliis  work?  A. — I  worked  on  her,  put  in  the 
knees,  deck  frame  and  laying  decks.  I  worked  on  her  my- 
lo  self,  but  I  did  not  work  on  her  in  the  contract  work,  on  the 
])lanking  and  on  the  new  frame.  1  worked  on  every  part  of 
her,  but  I  left  her  to  the  contractors. 

Q. — ^Now  between  the  years  1877  and  1881,  was  she  over- 
hauled at  any  time  and  looked  after  carefully?  A. — I  had 
each  of  my  vessels  overhauled  every  season,  I  had  them  thor- 
oughly overhauled. 

Q.— What  was  done  in  1881?  A.— In  1881  I  put  a  steam 
power  in  her. 

Q. — You  made  her  what  they  call  an  auxilliary  steamer? 
A. — Yes,  auxilliary  steamer. 

Q. — Where  was  that  done?  A. — She  was  hauled  up  in 
Cox's  yard  to  get  ready  for  it,  that  is  to  get  the  wood  work 
done  and  to  get  the  sliaft  and  heads,  and  sleeves  and  knees 
in  her. 

Q. — Did  you  have  a  stern  i>ost  and  rudder  post  put  in?  A. 
— The  old  srtern  post  was  not  large  enough  for  the  sleeve  and 
they  had  a  new  oak  stem  post  and  rudder  put  in. 

Q.— What  were  they  made  of?      A.— Oak. 
30       Q. — ''*  -ter  the  preparatory  work  were  the  engines  then  put 
in?    A.— Yes. 

Q. — And  what  other  machinery  went  in?  A. — Well,  after 
the  engine  and  boiler  I  put  in  a  steam  pump  and  hose. 

Q. — And  an  outfit  for  that?  A. — I  don't  know  as  I  put 
that  in  just  at  that  time,  I  think  it  was  put  in  later. 

Q. — Now  about  what  did  this  machinery  and  steam-fitting 
cost?    A. — As  near  as  I  can  remember  it  cost  about  |3,000. 

Q. — What  business  had  yon  used  this  vessel  for  when  not 
sealing?    A. — For  trading. 
4°       Q. — Trading  along  the  coast?    A. — Trading  6n  the  coast 
here. 

Q. — About  what  weight  would  she  carry?  A. — About  50 
t(»ns,  50  long  tons  of  coal. 

Q. — You  carried  coal  in  her  of  that  weight?    A. — Yes. 

Q. — In  1880  how  many  vessels  were  managt^l  by  yon? 
What  did  your  fleet  consist  of?  A. — Tliere  were  six  sealers. 
Ilie  "Thornton,"  the  "Savward,"  the  "Anna  Heck,"  the 
"Onice"  and  the  "Dolpliin." 

Q.— The  "Kustlt'r"  was  lost  in  1887?  A.— She  was  lost  in 
1887. 

Q.— Who  was  master  of  tlte  "Thoniton"'  in  1880?  A.— 
Hans  fSnttornisen. 

vl.— He  is  dead?     A.— Yes. 

Q.7— "^'..u  have  corresponded  witli  liim  when  he  was  master 
of  the  shi])?    A. — Yes. 

Q. — Will  yon  look  at  tliis  letter  and  see  if  it  is  in  his  hand- 
writing?    .\.— That  is  a  letter  T  nceived  from  him. 
6q       Q. — Do  you  know  his  handwriting?     A. — Yes. 

Q.— That  is  his  signature?     A.— Yes. 

Q. — You  i-eceived  that  in  the  course  of  the  post?  A. — I  re- 
ceived it  by  post. 

Letter  nmrked  "No.  15  for  identification." 

Q. — Look  at  tlie  luindwriting  in  this  book,  and.  having  look- 
ih\  at  alt  the  pages  in  that  book,  state  in  whose  handwriting 
it  is?     .\  — Hans  Outtornisen's. 


50 


ii'  i 


% 


ft- 


iiv<, 


Wr 


H' 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


906 

(J.  D.  Wiiircii — Direct.) 

Q. — You  have  examined  tliis  booli  Ix'fdre  witli  me?  A. — 
Yes. 

Sir  C.  H.  Tupiu'i-: — I  hIhiu1(1  state  to  the  CommissionerH 
that  I  aslied  tlie  leading  <'ounnel  for  Her  Jfajestv  to  state 
that  it  appears  that  tlie  parties  were  in  correspondence  with 
tlie  Department  of  Marine  and  Pisheiles — of  which  I  was 
liead  at  that  time— they  sent  this  book  to  Ottawa,  and,  out  of 
tlie  records  it  has  come  into  my  possession  as  agent  for  Her 
Majesty  in  connecti<m  witli  tlie  Paris  proceedings.  This  is  a 
document  we  asked  fi-om  the  other  side,  and  which,  as  a  mat- 
ter of  fact,  was  at  tlie  time  in  my  jK'rsonal  possession, 
though  I  had  not  remembered  it. 

Book  marked  "No.  10  for  ideniification." 

Q. — This  log  which  yon  looked  at  in  tluttormsen's  writing 
purports  to  be  ilie  log  of  the  "Thornton?"       A. — Yes. 

Q. — Have  you  any  doubt  that  this  is  the  log?  A, — 1  have 
no  doubt  of  it. 

<}. — You  know  of  no  other  book  purporting  to  be  the  log 
of  that  vessel?      A. — I  do  not. 

Q. — You  told  us,  I  think,  already,  that  you  have  been  a  lone 
time  engaged  in  the  sealing  business.       You  have  had  ex- 
perience in  that  business  long  anterior  to  188(!?      A. — Yes. 
Q. — You  are  one  of  the  pioneers  of  the  seal  business  in 
British  Columbia?      A. — Yes,  I  am  one  of  them. 

Q. — What  fleet  had  you  in  1882  engaged  in  that  business  of 
coasting  and  sealing?  A. — I  had  the  "(Jrace,  the  "Dolphin," 
the  "Anna  Beck,"  the  "Sayward"  and  the  "Thornton." 

Q. — For  how  many  months  were  they  out  on  a  cruise  in 
1882?  A. — For  about  four  months,  or  a  little  over  it. 

Q. — In  188,'i  what  fleet  had  you  out  sealing  and  coasting? 
A. — I  think  I  had  only  three  sealing  Jind  coasting  that  year. 
Q._What  were  these?      A.— The  "Anna  Heck"  the  "Thorn- 
ton" and  the  "Sayward." 

Q. — And  in  1SS4?  A. — I  had  five  out  again  that  year,  the 
"Orace"  the  "Dolphin,'"  the  "Anna  Beck."  the  "Tliornton"  and 
the  "Sayward." 

ti.— You  had  the  same  lot  out  in  1885?      A.— Yea 
Q. — In  these  years  they  confined  their  sealing  operations  to 
the  coast?      A. — i'es. 

Q. — And  you  superintended  the  fitting  of  these  vessels  out? 
A. — I  generally  suiierintended  the  fitting  out  inys4'lf. 

Q. — And  what  kind  of  hunters  did  you  have  as  a  rule? 
A. — Mostly  always  Indians, 

Q. — Ip  fitting  these  vessels  out.  were  they  ever  prevented 
from  carrying  on  their  opera ti<»ns  by  running  short  of  provis- 
ions?     A. — Never. 

Q._ln  1880  you  fitted  out  how  many  vessels?  A.— I  think 
I  fitted  out  six  vessels  in  188(i.  The  same  fltH't  and  Ihe  "Rust- 
ler" added. 

Q.— That  is  the  "Sayward,"  the  "Thornton."  and  the  "Anna 
Beck,"  the  "(Jrace,"  the  "Dolphin"  and  the  "Rustler"?  A.— 
Yes. 

Q._The  "Thornton"  was  seized  that  year?      A.— Yes. 
Q. — The  others  returned  to  port?    A. — Yes. 
Q. — About  what  time  did  the  vessels  that  were  now  ;'( 1z- 
ed  H'turn  to  port?      A.— In  the  month  of  Sejttember. 

Q. — Were  any  of  these  vessels  short  of  provisions  when 
they  came  hack?      A. — No.  not  that  I  am  aware  of. 

Q._W(.r«'  they  or  nol,  as  a  matter  of  fact?  Would  nof 
you  know  if  they  were?      A.— Tlu'y  were  not. 

Q.—AVhere  did  you  supply  Ihe  "Tlioinlon"  in  1880?  A.-— 
I  suppose  she  had  \u\vi  of  her  siipiilies  here  when  she  left  in 


20 


907 

(J.  I),  ^\■^u•r^•^— Direct.) 

the  spring,  and  llien  I  Hiinplied  her  for  the  Belning  Sea  triii 
down  on  the  coast  at  Clayoquot. 

Q.— Out  of  wliat  ship  did  you  supply  her  at  Clayoquot?  A, 
—  Out  of  the  "Holphin." 

Q. — Look  at  that  signature,  and  see  if  that  is  your  signa- 
ture?     A. — Yes,  that  is  my  signature. 

Q. — This  document  is  a  statutory  declaration,  was  declar- 
ed by  you  at  the  time,  and  it  bears  date  the  2.'5th  November, 
1S87,  is  that  right?  A.— Yes,  that  must  have  been  at  Ot- 
tawa. 

Document  marked  "No.  17"  for  identification. 

Q- — Vou  were  commissioned  by  several  of  the  parties  in- 
terested in  the  vessels  seized  at  that  time  to  go  to  Ottawa? 
A.— Yes. 

Q.— And  to  the  best  of  your  ability,  you  prepared  a  state- 
ment of  their  claims?      A.— Yes,  at  Ottawa. 

Q.— Now  at  the  time  this  statutory  declaration  bears  date, 
November,  1887,  what  did  you  rely  on  in  making  up  the  claims 
in  connection  with  the  "Thornton?"  A.— In  making  up  the 
claim  at  Ottawa,  I  had  to  make  it  from  a  memo  of  invoices,  I 
had  no  invoices  there. 

Q. — From  your  recollection  at  the  time  could  you  come 
pretty  near  to  the  amount  of  i»rovisions  on  the  "Thornton" 
in  1886?      A. — Yes.^  I  should  be  able  to  come  very  near  it. 

Q. — Bather  better  than  you  can  today?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — In  the  meanwhile  since  1887,  you  have  had  litigation, 
have  you  not?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — And  in  connection  with  that  litigation  you  had  to  pro 
duce  the  vouchers  and  papers  connecttnl  with  these  vessels, 
is  that  so?      A. — Yes,  I  had  to  produce  all  I  could  find. 

Q. — Are  you  able  to  produce  them  today?  A. — No,  only 
some  of  them 

Q. — The  balance  of  them  went  out  of  your  possession  in 
the  courts?      A. — In  the  litigation. 

Q. — The  amount  you  charge  for  ])rovi8ions  under  the  head 
40  of  groceries,  there  is  ^53.'?..S7,  are  you  satisfied  Paptain  War 
ren,  that  there  was  that  amount  on  board  the  "Thornton" 
when  she  started  for  Behring  Sea. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Is  this  to  be  considered  fair  testimony? 

Sir  C.  H.  Tupper: — I  was  about  to  state  that  there 
would  be  a  great  deal  of  difhculty  in  this  case.  My  learned 
friend  will  see  that  the  amotint  is  small. 


30 


50 


60 


Mr.  Dickinson: — Are  the  vouchers  in  the  court? 

Sir  r.  II.  Tupper: — The  witness  has  stated  tluit  after  he 
made  his  claim  in  18S7.  lie  had  litigati(m.  and  he  was  com- 
pelled to  produce  these  vouchers  and  papers,  and  since  then 
he  has  not  been  able  to  obtain  them.  I  will  ask  the  witness 
the  (luestion. 

Q. — Have  you  nuide  eveiy  effort  to  procure  these  docu- 
ments?    A. — Yes. 

Q. — And  nuiny  of  the  people  who  sup])lied  you  in  1880,  ar«> 
as  a  matter  of  fact  dead  or  out  of  business  n<»w?  A. — Yes. 
some  of  them  are  out  of  business,  and  some  of  them  are 
dead. 

Q. — Have  you  not  even  searched  the  records  of  the  court, 
and  had  them  searched?  A. — Yes.  I  hav<>  searched  the  court 
two  or  three  times  since. 

Q. — I  will  ask  you  in  rcfei'euct'  to  some  of  the  people  that 
you  did  busin«'ss  witli  then.  You  dealt  with  Strauss  &  f!om- 
|>any?     .\. — <'onsiderably. 


in 


li:'    a 


lO 


908 

(J.  D.  Wiu'icii— Direct.) 

Q. — Are  tliey  in  ImMiiieHH  now?     A. — No. 

Q. — And  Sweeney  &  Hates?    A. — HateH  in  out  of  business. 

{}. — And  Van  Vollvenburg?    A. — He  is  out  of  business. 

Q. — And  the  llritisli  Columbia  soap  wctrks?  A. — They  are 
out  of  buMuess. 

Q. — And  Neufelder  &  Ross?  A. — That  firm  is  out  of  busi- 
ness i;nd  Neufelder  is  out  of  the  country. 

Q. — And  Beat  &  Company?    A. — Tliey  are  out  of  business. 

Q. — And  the  James  Bay  ('oal  Yard,  :!ie  tlu'y  in  business? 
A  — Tliey  brolie  np  throuj;li  that  litigation,  and  the  books 
could  not  be  found. 

Q. — And  Spratt,  is  he  in  business?     A. — He  in  dead. 

Q. — Did  you  deal  with  Capt.  Raymur?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — What  has  become  of  him?       A. — He  is  dead. 

Q. — And  Wescott?      A. — He  is  not  here. 

Q. — These  are  some  of  the  people  you  deal  with,  and  have 
you  endeavored  to  obtain  duplicate  vouchers  and  Infornia- 
20  tion  of  that  kind?     A. — Yes,  we  have. 

Sir  C.  H.  Tupper: — That  is  the  reason  why  I  frankly  ask 
the  Captain  to  come  back  to  this  document  which  he  made  at 
the  time  when  I  understand To  witness: 

Q. — You  say  these  matters  were  comparatively  fresh  in 
your  recollection  then?  A. — Yes,  they  were  fresh  in  my  re- 
col  led  ion  then. 

Q. — As  a  matter  of  fact,  does  the  f533.00  reprcisCiit  all  that 
you  proposed  to  put  in  the  ''Thorntou"  for  provisions  that 
3°   season?      A.— No. 

Q. — What  arrangements  did  you  make  with  regard  to  o\it- 
fltllng  the  "Thornton"  that  year?  A. — I  took  extni  supplies 
on  board  the  "Dolphin"  to  give  her  in  Behring  Sea. 

Q, — Y'ou  had  extra  supplies  for  the  "Thornton"  on  board 
the  "Dolphin?"      A.— Yes. 

Q. — What  was  your  reason  for  not  putting  the  full  sujjples 
on  the  "Thornton"  for  the  Behring  Sea  voyage  at  Clayoiiuot? 
A. — They  were  cramped  for  room. 

Q. — She  was  a  small  vessel?      A. — A  small  vessel. 

Q. — What  arrangement  did  you  make  so  that  you  could  re- 
plenish the  Thornton  with  supplies?  A.— I  arranged  for  the 
i-aptain  to  meet  me  in  the  Behring  Sea  at  a  certain  time  and 
place  so  as  to  give  him  any  supplies  he  wanted. 

Q.— Where  did  you  have  this  understanding?  A. — In 
Clayo>]uot  is  where  I  made  tlu'  arrangements  with  the  Cap- 
tain. 

Q.— And  as  a  matter  of  fact  you   subseciuently  met   the 
"Thornton,"  did  you  not?      A.— Yes. 
50        Q.— And  met  him  at  the  moutli  of  <me  of  the  entninces? 
A.— Yes,  met  her  at  the  nioulli  of  one  of  the  entrances. 

Q. — And  vou  towed  him  m?      A. — Yes. 

Q._You  were  on  the  "Dolphin"  and  you  towed  the  "Thorn- 
ton" through  the  jmss?      A.— Yes. 

Q.— In  these  varioiis  years,  when  you  were  hunting  with 
your  Heet  did  your  vessels  work- comparatively  all  togt^ther, 
or  was  everv  vessel  independent  of  tlie  otlier?  A. — We  al- 
ways expected  lo  assist  one  another,  and  whenever  we  got 

^     time  we  did. 

^o       Q.— Your  vessels  were  on  the  s.nine    gi-ound?       A. — lh<>y 
were  on  the  same  coast  together. 

Q.— And  when  you  entered  Behring  Sea,  they  entered  about 
the  same  time?      A.— Yes,  just  about. 

Q.— Had  you  been  in  the  habit  of  n'plenishing  the  other  ves- 
sels of  vour  fleet  from  the  Dolphin?      A.— Yes. 

Q._l'n  18S(!.  taking  the  supplies  you  had  on  the  vessels  you 


40 


have  mentioned,  how  long  did  you  arrangt 


for  the  cruise,  a 


cruise  o 


f  the  various  vessels  in  your  fleet?      .\. — My  inten- 


"•rn 


m 


lO 


20 


40 


(.1.  I).  Wrtiit'U— Direct.) 

tion  was  to  have  Htayed  in  tlic  Sea  until  about  the  end  of 
Hepteniber. 

Q. — And  talking  tlie  8Ui)i)lies  you  luid,  are  you  able  to  say 
that  they  would  have  held  out  for  the  full  season?  A. — Yes, 
plenty. 

Q. — Have  you  any  doubt  about  that  whatever?    A. — No 
doubt  whatever. 
Q. — And  you  so  arranged?      A. — Ho  arranged. 
Q. — From  year  to  year,  would  there  be  supplies  over  from 
the  preceding  season?      A.— Oh,  yes,  she  a' ways  had  some 
supplies  over. 

Q.— Had  the  "Thornton"  anything  over  and  above  the 
amount  you  put  into  her  at  CJayoqnot?  A.— I  could  not  say 
whether  she  had  or  not. 

Q— You  liave  no  distinct  recollection  of  what  she  had  left 
there?      A.— No. 

Q. — Did  the  vessels  usually  come  in  here  with  supplies 
left?      A. — They  generally  had  sui)plie8  left. 

Q.— What  kind  of  supplies?  A.— The  kind  of  supplies  that 
would  do  for  another  season,  such  as  canned  goods. 

Q. — And  flour  and  biscuit?  A. — The  flour  and  biscuit,  we 
used  to  try  and  get  clear  of. 

Q. — At  the  time  the  "Thornton"  was  seized  how  far  away 
was  your  vessel  that  day?      A. — About  fiO  miles. 

Q. — I  believe  you  estimated  that  out  on  tlie  cliart  the  other 
day,  taking  it  from  tli<»  position  given  in  the  admisssion  of 
facts  as  to  the  locality  of  the  seizure,  and  your  memorandum 
of  the  position  of  your  own  boat  from  a  book  which  30U  have 
and  whicli  you  will  produce  later  on?    A. — Yes. 

Q.— You  were  fiO  miles  from  the  "Thornton"  that  day?  A. 
—Yes. 

Q. — Within  what  waters  were  you  fishing  in  the  season  of 
188()?  A. — I  think  they  were  all  pretty  much  around  where 
we  were. 

Q._Is  that  south  of  the  Pribyloff  Islands?  A.— South  of 
tlie  Pribvloff  Islands. 

(j._You  kept  a  diary  for  188(»  and  1887,  I  believe?  A.— 
Yes. 

Q. — And  you  have  it  in  your  hand  now,  have  you  not?  A. 
Yes. 

Q._In  that  season  of  ]88«  while  on  the  "Dolphin"  how 
often  did  you  see  tlie  "Anna  Beck"  before  the  seiioiire?  A.— 
Twice,  I  lielieve,  as  near  as  1  can  remember. 

Q.— And  how  often  did  you  see  the  "drace"  in  tlie  Behring 
jjlj>.,?      A.— I  think  I  only  saw  the  "(Irace"  once. 


SO 


Q.— And  the 
once  or  twice. 
(i.— .\nd  the 
(i.— And  tlie 


60 


Onward?"       A.— I  saw  the  Onward  either 
I  think  1  saw  her  on  two  days. 
Favouril*'"?    A.— I  saw  the  "Favourite." 
l.aiira"?     A.— I  sjiw  tlie  "Laura." 
Q._Aiul  the  "Carolcna?"       A.— I  siiw  the  "<^irolena." 
Q._Vou  saw  .hem  that  year  in  the  Beliring  Sea?  A.— Yes. 

il And  these  vesst-ls  were  in  tlie  habit  of    meeting    on 

these  sealing  grounds?  A.— Oli,  yes,  it  was  a  common  thing. 
Q._Are  you  able  to  sjiy  if  it  was  the  habit  then,  and  is  the 
haltit  to  dav  for  »m«"  vessi>l  to  supply  another  if  the  other  ran 
short  of  material  needed  for  the  sealing  cruise?  A.— That 
is  a  common  thing. 

Q. — It  was  a  common  thing?     \. — Yes. 
fj. — And  you  towed  th»>  "Thornton"  into  Beliring  Sea?  A. 
—Yes. 

(j.—Wore  you  asked  for  a  further  stock  of  provisions  for 
the  "Thornton"  then?     .V.— I  don't  think  so. 

(i. — Now.  in  these  days  of  seal  hunting,  and  on  your  ves- 
sels, outside  of  the  ordinary  provisions,  what  food  was  there 


■    \ 

ii! 


il 


I 


I) 


'i!rliiiii-.ii,i 


lO 


3« 


910 

(.1.  D.  Waimi-^DIrict.) 

118  a  rule  available  for  the  ship's  coinpan.v?  Was  there  a 
jjood  deal  of  lisli  to  be  had?  A. — Tlie  vessels  were  equipped 
with  lines  and  hooks  for  that  purpose. 

Q. — And  the  Indians  used  to  us»  a  jj;o(»d  deal  of  seal  meat, 
and  sometimes  so  did  (lie  wiiites"'     A. — Yes. 

Q. — What  part  of  the  seal?  A. — The  Indians  would  eat 
tlu'  bod.v.  the  blubber  of  the  seal,  and  the  livers  were  usmI  a 
ijood  deal.  Tlie  Indians  earned  a  good  deal  of  drv  halibut 
with  them  when  they  started  out  in  those  days. 

Q. — In  lS8t>,  which  ship  of  your  fl«'et  took  the  extra  supply 
of  provisi(ms  that  you  spoke  of?  A. — Well,  I  K<'n*'''nll.V  took 
the  vessel  I  was  in  myself,  and  1  was  on  the  "Dolphin." 

Q. — It  is  not  what  you  generally  did,  but  in  1886  did  you 
arrange  to  take  extra  supplies  on  any  vessel  or  for  any  ves- 
sel?   A.— I  did  for  tlie  "Thornton." 
Q.— On  whieh  vessel?    A.— On  the  "Dolphin." 
Q. — Sjx^aking  roughly,  can  you  at  this  time  say  about  how 
20  much  would  you  be  able  to  part  with?     A. — I  had  plenty  of 
supplies  to  give  any  of  them  what  they  required.     I  could 
give  the  "Thornton"  any  supplies  they  would  require. 

Q. — And  your  vessel  came  back  without  being  short  of  pro- 
visions?   A. —  Yes. 

ii. — How  many  pounds  would  there  be  in  a  box  of  pilot 
bread?  A. — A  box  at  that  time  I  think  weighed  about 
seventy  [munds.  They  were  larger  than  they  make  them 
now. 

Q. — And  how  many  biscuits  would  that  be?  A. — Well, 
from  memory  I  think  it  is  alxtut  600. 

Q. — I  see  you  cliarge  five  rides  in  this  statement  prepared 

at  Ottawa,  and  marked  "No.  17  for  identification,"  can  you 

explain  that?     A. — Is  there  not  a  credit  of  a  rifle  somewhere? 

Q. — You  omitted  to  credit  any  rifle  given  to  another  ship? 

A. — Yes,   I  supjtose  that  is  it. 

Q. — That  is  she  started  with  five,  and  gave  one  rifie  away 
to  another  ship,  is  that  so?     A. — I  believe  that  is  it. 

Q.— What  did  tliese  rifles  cost?    A.— The  Marlin,  at  tliat 
40  time,  as  nt ar  as  I  can  iememl)er,  were  f4.'».70. 

Q. — These  were  the  rifles  on  the  "Thornton"?  A. — Yes, 
there  is  another  rifle  wliich  I  bought  at  ^22,  but  I  do  not  re- 
meml)er  the  name  of  it. 

Q. — What  did  the  shot  guns  cost?  A. — About  f;{5  each,  I 
suppose. 

(i. — You  also  put  in  your  statement  a  thenuometer?  Have 
you  anything  to  say  about  that?  A. — That  thermometer  was 
returned. 

Q. — There  were  some  things  in  the  inventory  that  were  not 
in  your  claim.  Now,  in  i-egard  to  an  extra  set  of  sails,  have 
you  any  n'collecticm  as  to  wliether  the  "Thornton"  carri*^ 
an  extra  suit  or  not?  A. — Was  it  an  extra  suit  made  espec- 
ially for  that  sliip? 

Q. — I  see  in  the  inventory  taken  by  the  TTnited  States  n«- 
thcirities  the  following:  Three  main  sails  witli  one  set  of 
gear  complet«s  two  fore  sails  with  one  set  of  gear  complete, 
and  one  jii)?  A. — Apprantly  from  that  there  was  only  one 
set  of  jibs,  and  more  mainsails. 

Q. — Did  you  yourself  see  that  extra  set  of  sails  put  on? 
A. — I  saw  it  on  board  of  her. 

Q.— What  would  they  cost?  A.— The  bill  was  f;?(>7,  I 
think. 

Q. — Where  were  they  stowed?  A. — T  dcm't  know;  some 
place  in  the  hold. 

(J. — If  there  was  not  an  extra  suit,  would  there  be  found  on 
her  three  mainsails?      A.— Oh,  theie  was  an  extra  suit;  one 


SO 


;  k 


10 


9" 
(J.  1>.  Waneu— Direct.) 

Hnit  was  repaired  up,  and  the  otlier  was  a  new  suit.  One 
was  an  old  Huit  tliat  liad  been  repaired  up. 

(J. — Slie  did  not  ordinarily  earry  three  niainHailH,  did  she? 
A. — On  the  ooaHt,  generally  tarry  but  one  suit. 

Q. — Wo  that  Hhe  really  had  more  than  an  extra  suit?  A.. — 
Yes.  Her  proper  outfit  was  one  mainsail.  Hhe  im\y  put 
up  one  mainsail.  T(tok  the  old  suit  along  to  save  the  new; 
used  it  in  good  weather.  I  didn't  know  myself  there  was 
three  on  b«»ard;  there  was  two  I  knew. 

8ir  (\  H.  Tui>per: —  So  far  as  I  am  instrueted,  there  were 
not  thr«»e  mainsails.  He  has  no  recollection  of  that;  but 
there  were  two,  the  n'guhir  mainsail  and  the  extra  mainsail. 
On  the  entry  it  is  marked  three  and  two,  three  mainsails  and 
two  other  siiils,  and  (m«*  jib;  that  is  where  the  mistake  is;  if 
Ihey  took  that  extra  number  and  put  down  the  jib  below,  it 
would  make  the  statement  tally. 

20  The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — When 
you  otrry  «'xtra  sails,  what  do  y<»u  geiH-rally  carry?  A. — The 
reason  that  the  old  sails  was  taken  in  this  case 

The  ('ommissi<mer  on  the  part  of  the  T^nited  States: — I 
mean  ordinarily  on  this  coast,  when  you  carry  an  extra  sail, 
what  do  you  '-arry?  \. — They  don't  generally  carry  extra 
sails,  except  a  trisail. 

Q. — What  did  the  shot  gun  cartridges  cost  at  that  time? 
30   A. — Well,  as  near  as  I  can  tell,  about  |35.      I  don't  know 
whether  thev  all  cost  alike  or  not. 
(i.— Thirty  five  what?      A.— |;{ij. 

(J. — Carti'idges,  I  said?  A. — The  cartridges  loaded  wonld 
cost  about  10  cents. 

ii. — And  the  rifle  cartridges?  A. — About  four  cents;  I 
think  |I40  a  thousand  for  rifle  cartridges. 

i}. — Powder?  A. — Well,  that  season  I  paid  about  70  centH, 
for  it,  English  Diamond  grain. 

Q. — A  pound?      A. — -V  pound. 
40       Q. — How  much  were  the  bullets?       How  much  would  a 
bag  contain?      A. — A  bag  of  bullets  would  be  28  pounds. 

Q. — And  how  much  would  that  be?  A. — About  seven 
cents  a  pound. 

Q. — And  buckshot,  how  much  a  pound  would  that  cost? 
A.— Well,  I  think  the  buckshot  I  got  that  season  cost  nine 
cents,  Ameritan. 

Q.— And  how  much  a  bag?     A.— The  Canadian  buckshot 
cost  us  eight.       1  am  pretty  sure  it  was  the  San  Francisco 
50   buckshot  we  had  the  first  year,  in  1880. 

Q.— That  was  what?      A.— Nine. 

Q._piow  mufh  would  a  bag  hold?  A.— A  bag  would  be 
25  ])ounds. 

Q._How  much  would  five  boxes  of  wads  cost?  A.— Well, 
the  wads  was  dillerent  prices,  1  supose  they  would  cost  about 

$1  a  box.  .  ,       ,      X  •<  !-/» 

Q.— And  the  primers?      A.— Primers,  T  think,  about  fl.50 

a  thousand.  ,    ,  ^^.^      .„  . 

Q  —There  is  a  claim  in  that  schedule  marked  "No.  17  for 
60  identification,"  for  "dry  goods,"  does  that  refer  to  the  slop 
chest?      A.— That  would  be  fhe  slop  chest. 

Q  —About  how  much  was  on  the  "Thornton?"  A.— 1  snp- 
pose  about  »250,  200  or  f250.  ,     .,    .    .  . 

Q— This  is  ^iSifl.  Would  there  be  an  error  in  that  state- 
ment?   A.— Tlie  men  may  have  got  their  supplies  before  they 

left  in  that  case.  ,        1     j.o  v 

Q.— At  anv  rale,  you  remember  there  was  a  slop  cliest.'  A. 
—Yes,  they  had  a  slop  chest  on  board, 


i  I 


912 


i'l|ii 


Pli!f 


k 

iiii. 

(J.  D.  >\'uireu— Diiett.) 

Q.— And  yon  My  you  UHiuilly  cany  #1'50  worth  of  stuff?  A. 
rHiiall.v  nirr.v  about  that  much. 

(2. — IJow  inau.y  water  tanks  were  there  on  hoard?  A. — 
There  was  three. 

(i.— Are  you  |n)Hitive  about  tliese  water  tanks?      A.— Yes, 
there  was  two  hir^e  ones  and  a  small  one.      The  small  one 
was  lashed  on  deck  somewhere. 
10  1    Q- — This  is  In  addition  to  tlie  water  casks?      A. — Yes,  in 
addition  to  the  water  casks. 

Q. — How  larfte  were  these  water  tanks?  A. — Two  of  them 
would  be  4(M>  gallons. 

Q. — WherealxiUts  were  they  on  the  "Thornton?"  A. — 
Stowed  in  the  hold. 

Q. — I  won't  take  up  any  more  time  ex<'ept  to  ask  what 
thesi»  cost.  A. — Well.  thf*y  coit  about  $2!i  ajtiece,  the  large 
ones;  thos;'  snuill  ones  I  paid  $40  for  two,  f2t>  each. 

Q. — What  di<l  you  say  these  three  water  tanks  were?      A. 
20   — Two  of  them  would  be  large  ones  and  one  small. 

Q. — Abcmt  what  ship  diandlery  or  stutT  foi  the  sealing 
voyage  was  there  on  the  "Thornton?"  A. — Well,  I  don't 
just  remember  what  she  had  on  her;  she  had  considerable 
spare  gear. 

(J  _.\Vhat  amount  would  it  usually  cost  for  a  vessel  of  that 
gii,t.>      A.— About  Ji2(M)  or  fi50. 

Q.— You  had  the  usual  amount  on  her?  A.— Yes,  I  had  a 
good  fair  supply  on  her. 

(J. — There  is  a  snmll  item  here  for  gnn  implements  and 
^°  tools,  she  carried  those?    A.— Yes,  she  carried  them,  re-load- 
ing tools. 

Q.__|!2;{,  or  a  little  over  is  charged  th»>re,  are  you  satisfied 
those  were  on  board?    A. — Yes. 

Q._That  would  be  the  value?  A.— That  would  be  the 
value  abotit. 

Q._Xow,  how  many  sealing  boats  had  she?  A.— She  had 
foiir. 

Q.— Had  she  any  ship'.,  boat?    A.— No,  I  think  not. 

O. — Then  when  you  say  boats,  you  ai-e  referring  to  sealing 
Vmats?      A. — Yes. 

Q.^How  much  did  those  boats  cost?  A.— With  their  rnuls, 
thev  would  cost  at  least,  I  should  think,  f  150  each. 

Q.— Where  did  you  buy  them?  A.— Hought  them  at  San 
Francisco. 

Q. — What  was  the  price  there? 
member  it  is  ft(»(>  each. 

(i.— When  were  these  bought?    A.— That  spring. 

Q. — And  you  get  the  additional  amount  by  the  duty?     A. 
S^  — Duty  |i25,  and  freight  and  other  exiMMises  about  fl5)  each. 

Q.— And  then  the  sails  and  oars  for  the  four,  how  much 
would  that  be?  A. — I  paid  |0  apiece  for  the  sails,  the  oars 
would  be  perhaps  about  *2..10  a  pair. 

(J. — And  the  "Thornton"  carried  four  new  sealing  boats 
and  outfit?     A. — Four  new  sealing  boats. 

Q. — Flow  many  water  casks  were  on  the  "Thornton"?    A. 
— Well.  1  couldn't  just  say  from  memory,  I  suppose  she  had 
about  eight,  eight  or  ten. 
60       Q. — There  wer«'  eight  in  the  inventoi"y.     How  mncli  would 
these  be  worth?     \. — Oh,  perhaps  f2.5ti  .-.JMece. 

Q. — What  is  salt  a  ton,  can  you  tell  the  price  per  ton?  A. 
— Well,  it  varies;  I  suppose  about  |15  a  ton. 

Q. — When  you  bought  it  by  the  i)ound?  A. — I  l)elieve 
about  three-quarters  of  a  cent. 

Q. — How  much  in  a  sack?  A. — There  would  be  two  hun- 
dred weight,  English  measurement. 


40 


A. — As  near  as  I  can  re- 


913 


lO 


20 


30 


A.— No. 

-Harry 


40 


SO 


60 


(J.  !►.  WuiTen— Direct.) 

Q. — TIh'w  Hnt'kH,  it  swras  in  tli«  inventory,  were  400i»ound 
(UicltH?    A. — \o.  tijcy  wotild  be  two  hundred  weight. 

y._You  do  not  recollect  wliiit  tliey  were?  A.— Tliat  is 
wliiit  tlie  wicliH  would  be,  two  hundred  wei^lit. 

Q.— What  di<l  you  pay  tor  coal?  .\.— Aboui  14  a  ton  here, 
in  18S«.     It  waH  ifS  delivered  t<t  houHes. 

(i. — You  luive  >;ot  a  cluirge  for  cool^iii^  ranjje  and  utensilw. 
W'luit  did  you  pay  for  those  about?     A. — .\bout  fno. 

Q. — What  was  the  lay  of  the  hunters  on  the  "Thornton"? 
A. — The  lay  of  the  hunters  that  year,  I  lielieve,  was  fl.5(>  a 
B]{in. 

Q. — AVliat  did  you  pay  the  master?  A. — The  master  was 
|50  a  month  and  a  lay  on  the  sliins  as  well. 

(J. — What  was  that?  .\. — F  am  not  positive  whether  it- 
was  12J  cents  or  whether  it  w  is  more. 

Q. — Huntei-s,  fL.'iO  for  eacli  r'nr  seal;  boat  pullers,  50  cents 
for  each  fur  seal;  that  lay  would  be  nil  the  boat  pnller  would 
pet  ?     .\ . — Yes. 

(i. — I  mean  lie  would  <n^t  nothing  for  wages?  A. — I  don't 
l«now  wlietlier  they  were  all  on  the  lay  or  not,  the  boat  pul- 
lers; s(une  of  them  may  luive  been  on  wafjes. 

Q. — Takinfj  the  list  of  the  crew  as  ap|»ears  in  that  lop,  do 
you  lvn(»w  whei-e  Neil  Morrison  is?  A. — Neil  Morrison  is 
dead. 

Q. — Do  yon  know  where  George  Cleveland  is?  .\. — N(».  I 
don't. 

Q. — Do  vou  know  where  fSeorge  Johnson  is? 

Q.— Frefl  Wilbur?    A.— No. 

Q. — Harry  Norman,   the   mate   and  engineer?    A. 
Norman  is  supjmsed  to  be  around  here  somewhere. 

Q. — Do  von  know  where  John  Duggan  is  to  be  found?  A. 
—No. 

(i. — John  Dallas  was  examined.  John  Douglas,  do  you 
know  wliere  he  is  to  be  f(»und?     A. — No,  I  don't. 

Q. — Do  you  know  when*  William  rh'veland  i'^?    A. — No. 

Q. — You  do  not  know  where  tliese  i)eople  arc  now?  A. — 
No. 

Q. — Sam  Lawless?    A. — I  don't  know  where  he  is. 

Q. — .\nthony,  an  Indian?      .\. — No. 

Q. — Touqtiot.  an  Indian?      A. — No. 

Q. — Who  was  the  cook?      A. — He  was  a  riiinaman. 

Q. — Do  you  know  wliere  he  is?  A. — No,  he  went  to  Oali- 
fornia.  1  don't  know  wlietlier  he  ever  came  back  to  the 
country  or  not. 

Q. — Have  you  endeavored  to  find  the  whereabouts  of  these 
people?      .\. — T  have  tried  to  find  out  where  they  are. 

The  rommissioner  on  the  part  of  the  T^nited  States: — Sir 
riiarles.  he  has  not  given  the  wages  of  the  mate  or  cook. 

Sir  r.  H.  Tnpper: — (To  witness.)  What  were  tlie  wages 
of  the  mate?      A. — Tlie  wages  ought  to  be  on  the  log. 

Sir  r.  H.  Tiijiper: — I  did  not  st'e  the  cajitain's  or  mate's,  he 
has  only  the  hunters'  and  boat  pullers'. 

Witness: — I  couldn't  say  positively  without  hiking  up  the 
books. 

Q. — You  cannot  tell  me  at  present?  A. — I  expect  that 
Norman's  would  be  about  ?40,  I  suppose. 

Q. — Do  you  know  what  the  ordinary  men  were  paid? 
A. — It  would  be  about  ^4(».  as  near  as  I  remember. 

Q. — Would  not  Norman  get  more,  being  engineer  and 
mate?  A. — Well,  lie  might  possibl.v.  I  couldn't  sav  positive- 
Iv. 

■  5a 


■! 


:!t 


MU 


pi 

'i 

> 

l(ll,,t 


914 

(J.  I>.  Wmii'u— l)lr«»t.) 

Q. — At  nny  nito  Mh-  pn.v  of  the  rt'st  wiih  <«4(>  a  month? 
A. — The  other  iinitcH.  I  thiiiK',  were  about  |4(l. 

H. — What  wciv  the  crt-w  paid  ontsich*  of  tlu'  liiinters  and 
Imat-pnlhTH?  A.— They  wouhl  >r»'t  about  $'.W  or  f:»r»;  it 
wouhl  varv;  f'\i't  f(»r  ordinary  Mailorn. 

The  CoiunilHHloncr  on  the  part  of  the  I'nitcd  Stati'H: — How 
many  wcrt*  liniiti'rM  and  how  man^'  were  boat-puUers? 

Hir  <'.  H.  Tnpjter: — II  besides  the  master  and  nmte. 

The  rommissloner  on  the  part  of  the  Vnited  States: — How 
many  liunters? 

Sir  C.  n.  Tnp])er:— Four  hunters  and  six  bontpnlh-rs.  Two 
Indians  were  hunters. 

Witness:— There  slioukl  be  eigiit.  two  to  eaeh  boat. 

t). — Morrison,  was  )ie  a  Ininter  or  a  boat  puller?      A. — Ue 
20   was  a  hunter.      One  ctf  the  Clevelauds  was  u  boat-puller. 
<i. — How  many  nu>n  in  a  boat?      A. — Three  men. 

(i. — And  those  were  called  boat-pullers?  A.— One  would 
be  a  sttM'rer  and  the  other  a  jtuller. 

Q.— There  were  a  crew  of  thirteen  men  besides  the  nuister 
and  male?      A.— Yes.  that  is  right.  I  believe. 

Q.-  When  did  the  "Thornton"  finally  sail  on  her  Jtehrinf,' 
Sea  trip?  What  was  the  date  from  Clayocpiot?  A.— I 
think  it  was  about  the  27th  of  May. 

Q— You  have  got  that  entry  in  that  book  there,  have  you 
30   not?      A.— (Examining)— The  "Thornton"  left  on  the  27th. 
Q.— In  1887  you  wore  In  Ounalaskn.  were  vou  not,  again? 
A. — ^'es. 

Q- — That  is  the  year  you  were  seized? 
the  year  I  was  seized. 

Q.— You  saw  the  "Thornton"  at  that  time.  Now,  tell  the 
Commissioners  what  her  condition  w.ts.  how  she  was  lying 
there,  what  care  was  being  taken  of  her?  A.— She  was  just 
hauled  onto  the  beach  and  left  there.  The  tide  came  up  and 
left  her  dry  at  low  water,  at  high  water  it  came  around  her. 
Q. — Had  she  t)een  much  dejtreciated  since  her  seizure? 
A. — There  had  been  nothing  done  to  her  at  all;  she  was  just 
lying  there  open  to  the  weather. 

(J. — What  was  the  condition  of  the  copper?  \. — And  the 
water  at  that  time  w.is  leaking  down  into  the  boiler  and  en- 
gine. 

Q. — In  what  condition  was  the  copjH-r;  was  it  chafed? 
A. — The  copi)er  was  chafed  considerably. 

t^. — And  how  were  tbt"  deck  seams?      A. — The  deck  seams 
50  would  be  open  there  laying  to  the  weather  that  way. 

Q. — Is  that  the  way  the  water  got  into  the  machinery? 
A. — Tliat  is  the  way  the  water  was  leaking  through  onto  the 
nnichinery. 

(J. — In  what  condition  was  the  machinery  and  boiler? 
\. — All  rusted  up;  in  bad  condition. 

(^. — This  was  in  July,  1^<S7.  Are  you  able  to  say  anything 
as  to  the  fact  of  the  <l"imate  nj)  then'  up<»n  a  vessel  lying  idle? 
.\.— Well,  I  suppose  it  wouldn't  be  a  great  deal  worse  than 
down  here;  it  would  be  the  same.  A  damp  climate  will  cause 
i!  vessel  to  rot  more  than  a  dry  climate  will. 

Q. — And  it  is  exc','i)tionally  damp  there?  A.— Yes.  and 
then  heavy  frosts  in  (he  winter. 

Q, — What  means  existed  of  taking  a  schooner  from  Ounal- 
aska  in-  1SS(!  to  AMctoria.  or  anywhere?  A.— Well,  a  person 
would  have  to  take  all  his  helj)  and  material  frmn  here,  and 
take  it  up,  as  far  as  I  know.  Th«>y  would  want  to  take  tim- 
ber, 80  as  to  get  her  off  the  beach. 


A. — Yes.  that  is 


40 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


Co 


915 
(.1.  I>.  Wiinvii— IHit<(.) 


Q.— NV«'i»'  Hum 


•re  liny  ui«>aiiH  jIh-h'  tivail)ihl<>  for  taking  t\w. 
^  •       A. — None  that  I  know  of. 

(i—  What  would  it  have  con)  about,  if  von  ran  jfive  a  rongli 
idea,  (o  take  a  crew  np,  and  K»'t  a  vchhcI'  like  tlu'  "Tlnu-nton" 
off  and  Ininjr  Imt  lunn*'?  A.— Well,  it  wonid  Inivc  Hpoilcd 
IKMMt.  I  think,  to  put  Iut  in  HhaiM'.  take  men  np  and  take  her 
away. 

Q.— Now,  one  tineHtion.  captain,  aH  to  the  natnre  of  tiie 
KUpidieH.  WliiK  did  yon  jait  on  the  "Th(n'nt(»n."  what  kind 
of  HuppJieH?  A.— Well,  it  would  he  canned  nu'ats.  Halt 
meats,  rice,  heunH,  Hour,  tuscnit,  tea,  coffee.  HUKar,  lard,  ham 
or  bacon.  Koniethinji  in  that  line,  a  variety  of  IhiiiHH  that  \n 
pretty  hard  to  mention;  I  think  I  have  mentioned  about  all. 

Q. — And  yon  perHonally  attended  to  the  Hiipplyin^  of  vch- 
selft  that  I  nnMitioned  today  did  von  in  tlumc  other  yeaiH? 
A.— Yes 

Q.— All  of  them?      A.— All  of  them. 

Q- — Have  they  Hiipplien  and  jirovisicmK  at  Onnalaska? 
A. — I  believe  a  |>erson  can  get  them  there.  I  iinderntood  ho. 

(■}. — Yon  never  had  occaHion  to  pet  them  tliere?  A. — No, 
I  never  had  any  occasion  to  get  any. 

Q. — Yon  have  been  In  tliere?  A. — T  w;s  in  there  when 
I  was  seized. 

Q. — Do  yon  know  of  any  other  places  for  snjiplies?  A. — 
Sand  Point,  but  T  had  no  occasion  to  po  in  there  for  any. 
That  is  outside,  befor(>  they  po  in  oi-  .-ifter  they  come  out;  I 
never  had  occasion  to  po  (liere  foi-  any. 

Q. — Yon  liavi'  pone  in  for  coal  and  water,  have  yon  not.  at 
different  places?       \. — T  have  pone  in  there  for  water. 

Q. — AYliere  did  you  go  in  for  water?  A. — T  think  1  had 
one  vessel  go  into  Sand  Point. 

Q. — I  mean  in  the  sea?  .\. — T  got  water  one  time  a  little 
further  to  tbe  westward  than  Ounalaska. 

Q. — What  tonnage  was  the  "Dolphin?" 
gistered  fifl. 

Q. — What  could  she  carry,  a  large  amount? 

Q. — Dead  weight?      A. — Dead  weight. 

The  OoiiimiHHioner  on  the  part  of  Her  MajuBty: — Net  regis- 
ter? 

Witness: — Net  register  was  (50  and  a  fraction. 

Q. — What  have  you  carried?      A. — Coal. 

Q. — How  much?       A. — MM)  tons. 

Q. — So  she  had  ample  accommodation  then  for  her  own 
supplies  and  su])plies  besides?       A. — Yes. 

Q. — Did  you  frecjuently  supply  youi'  other  vessels  out  of 
her?  A. — Well,  sometimes,  very  s»'ldoin  they  wanted  any- 
thing; 1  freciuently  gave  them  some  articles  they  might 
wiint. 

Q. — She  and  the  "(irace"  were  about  the  same  size;  they 
were  the  largest  of  yonr  tleet?  A. — The  "Orace"  was  larger 
than  her. 

Q. — Was  the  "Grace"  much  larger?  A. — She  carried  20 
tons  more. 

Q. — But  the  "Dolphin"  was  your  own  ship;  I  mean  the  one 
yon  sailed  in?      A. — She  was  my  fancy  one. 

Hy  the  rommissioner  on  the  part  of  the  Thiited  States: — 
Captain,  how  long  would  a  suit  of  sails  last  in  this  bust 
ness?     .V. — About  three  years. 

Q.— What  would  it  cost  to  retit  this  "Thornton?"  1  do 
not  mean  the  outfit;  but  you  say  you  thoroughly  retit  every 
autumn;  how  much  did  it  cost  each  year  to  retit,  take  the 


A  —She  was  re 


A.—l.-^O  tcniR. 


r 


M 


W  :! 


■I  ■'     f 


10 


20 


30 


910 

(J.  1).  Wuii-eii— Direct.) 

"Thornton"  for  inst;infO?  A. — Woll,  she  would  eost,  oh,  1 
Kliould  say — 

Q. — I  am  8|M'akinfj  sinipl.v  of  the  vesKel  herself,  to  make 
jiood  her  wear  and  fear?  A. — F  think  she  would  take  fully 
!j>l,(l()(>  a  year,  one  year  with  another;  one  year  she  mi^ht  not 
take  so  much  and  another  a  f^ood  deal  more. 

Q. — Do  you  mean  tlie  wear  and  (ear  would  be  as  much  as 
that?  A. — The  runniufr  irear  is  a  jtood  deal  and  the  sail  is 
a  flood  deal,  an.l  then  they  have  to  be  tliorout;lil\  overhauled 
and  repaired,  and  if  tliey  require  any  caulkiu};.  to  get  it.  and 
once  in  a  few  years  have  to  i»ut  in  new  chattinjj;,  and  overhaul 
them. 

Q. — Do  you  mean  a  vessel  of  the  size  of  the  "Thornlon" 
would  take  that?       A.— 1  think  she  would  take  fully  Ihat. 

Q. — That  would  represent  the  wear  and  tear,  would  it? 
A. — Yes,  I  think  she  would  take  about  that;  the  sealinf;  busi- 
ness is  a  i»retty  hard  business  on  these  little  vessels. 

Q. — It  is  not  so  hard  as  the  cod  fishing  luisiness  on  the 
Banks,  is  it?  .\. — Well,  T  don't  know.  It  is  a  pi'etty  hard 
business.  The  best  part  of  it  is  the  IJehriiiK  f!ea  by  all 
means. 

Dired  examination  by  Sir  C.  U.  Tu|»per  continued: 

Q. — As  a  matter  of  fact,  were  the  hunt«'rs  and  crew  i»aid 
after  coniini;  to  San  Francisco  and  Vi<'toria?  A. — They 
w(>re  all  paid. 

Q. — And  the  passjip^  money  fnuu  Victona  to  San  Fran- 
cisco? A. — Yes.  the  jtassafje  money  was  paid.  I  don't  know 
whether  that  included  the  whole. 

Q.— Well,  there  is  JfllOT.Ki  charged?  A.— That  was  paid 
to  the  steamer  coiu]>any  for  ])assafie. 

(i. — I'assjjRe  money  and  expcns«'s  of  Thomi»son  and  the 
mate,  Xorman,  are  charjied  here?  A. — Tlu're  is  some  mis- 
take in  that;  T  have  s<'en  that. 

Q.— You  say  that  is  only  |!100  that  was  |)aid?  ".-It 
40  should  be.  T  think.  ^100  foi-  the  two;  the  ordinary  i>assaKe 
was  ^50,  and  it  must  have  been  intended  to  be  $100  for  the 
two  instead  of  $100  ajaeco. 

Q.— At  any  rate,  the  rijjht  sum  is  $100?  A.— Yes.  I  should 
say  so. 

Mr.  Warren: — When  you  asked  liiiii  if  the  wafjes  were  paid 
up  to  what  tinu'  did  you  mean? 

Sir  ('.    If.   TupiM-r: — I   said   up  to   tlie  time  of  the  seizure. 
50   Was  that   ridit?  were  they  paid  up  to  the  time  nf  the  sei/, 
ui-e?     .\. —  III  l.'>!St!  I  am  not  sure  wlielhei'  we  jiaid  them  until 
they  arrived  home  or  not. 

O. — You  ai'e  siii'e  they  were  paid?  .\. — They  were  settled 
with  and  ]>aid  up. 

ii. — You  have  cliarffcd  $1.'!70.  would  that  be  tiie  amount? 
A.— Yes. 

<i.— Were  they  jriven  a  lay  on  the  catch?       .\.— Tliey  had 
to  1m'  ]>aid  for  fverv  skin  brought  on  board,  no  matter  whetii 
60   ,.!•  seized    ol-   not. 

Till'  ("onimissioiier  on  the  part  of  tlie  I'liitfd  States: — 
Wliat  is  the  piactice  under  the  K'ljrlisli  (ia>r,  Mr.  Teters 
where  a  vcnscI  is  lost  or  c;iptured:  is  it  to  (»ay  tlie  crew  to  the 
time  of  the  cap!  lire  and  expenses  home,  or  to  pay  tliem  up  to 
tlie  time  they  li  :l''Ii    iioine? 

Mr.  Teters:— If  i^■  a  ipiestion  I  cannot  answer  olT  hand, 


m 


If 


lO 


d'7 

(J.   1).  WiiiTcii—DiiTcl— Cross.) 

Tlu>  <'(nmiiisHi(nu'r  on  the  pjirl  of  tiic  IhiiliHl  StaU's: — With 
lis  flu'v  pa.v  the  wafjt's  iij)  to  the  (itnc  of  the  loss  and  pay  cx- 

IM'1181'8   llOlIK'. 

Mr.  IVters: — I  would  no!   like  to  answer  lliat  otT  hand. 

The  ("oniniissioncr  on  the  ]tart  of  (lie  rnilcd-  States: — My 
Icanu'd  associarc  thinks  it   is  tlic  same  here. 

Direct  examination  b\  Sir  (',.  H.  Tnpper  continued: 


Q. — You  charge  IjfuOO  exix-iist's  at  Silka  in  connection  witli 
the  st'izure  of  tlie  "Tliornton,"  ,  what  does  that  mean?  A. — 
Leftal  exiM'iises. 

(i. — Yes?  lA'iinl  exiM'HHes  at  Sitka  in  connection  with  the 
seizure?  A. — Well,  the  captain  enipi>>yed  a  lawyer  U|>  there 
or  a  tiiin,  and  il  ap|>ears  that  they  had  arranp'd  to  appeal 
tht'se  cases  an  1  1>,'  drew  on  me  for  Iji.'SOO. 
20  Q. — That  is  tlie  reason  you  charfjed  tiiat?  As  a  matter  of 
fact  you  have  not  i)aid  it?  A. — [  didn't  jtay  il.  lie  has 
Iwen  paid  some  money  that  we  thought  was  rifjht ;  I  told  him 
I  had  i>ut  the  claim  in,  and  if  it  was  allowed  he  would  fjet  it. 

Q. — Who  was  that?      A. — t'lark,  I  forget  the  name. 

(j. — Now,  th(>re  is  a  charge  of  $";")((  for  counsel  and  other 
h'gal  fees  and  exjK'nses  in  and  about  claims  arising  from  the 
seizure,  what  does  that  refer  to?  .\. — That  refers  to  the  en- 
gagement of  Helyea. 

(i. — That  is  in  connecti(Hi   with    this    "Thornton?"       A. — 
3     With  the  "Thornt(m." 

y. — Travelling,  hotel  and  other  necessary  ex|K'nses  in  con- 
nection with  the  said  seizure  and  claims,  f  1,(100,  is  that  abulk 
sum  that  you  jiut  in?      t^. — .lust  a  bulk  sun\. 

Q. — Where  did  you  go  in  connection  with  this;  what  diM'S 
that  travel  cover,  from  hei-e  to  where?  A. — ^I  have  been  a 
couple  of  times  east. 

ti— Do  you  mean  Ottawa?      A.— To  Ottawa. 

(i. — Have  you  been  to  Sitka?       A. — I  have  been  to  Sitka; 
4°   over  the  Sound  (wo  or  three  (imes. 

Q. — And   NYashington?       A. — .\n(l  (o  NYashington,  yes. 

Q.— In  ISJIO,  I  believe?      A.— I  am  not  sure  of  the  date. 

Q. — Washington,  the  capital  of  the  I'nited  Sta+es?  A. — 
I  know   I   was  (here,  bu(    I  don't  know  the  date. 


Cross-examination   by   Mi'.   Dickinson: 

Q. — Captain,  you  charged  f  1(100  for  eX|K'nses  travelling, 
«'ic.,  in  the  "Thornton"  case?  .\. —  1  have  charged  it  there. 
5°  (2. — Now,  when  did  von  begin  (o  (ravel  in  the  "Thornton" 
case?       ISHT?       .\.— lii  (he  fall  of  1SS7. 

(i. — .\(  (ha(  (inie  had  von  also  a  claim  as  lo  (he  "Dolphin?" 
A.— Yes. 

(i. — .\ml  some  live  olher  claims?  N'mir  oilier  ships?  .\. — ■ 
Yes. 

(J. — Did  you  go  on  business  for  (he  odier  live  ships?  .\. — 
Well,  I  w<'n(  on  (lie  business  of  all  of  (lieni.   I  suppose. 

(i. — And  you  charge  for  I i-a veiling  expenses  #100  in  eai'h 
Qq  case?  \. —  I  don'(  jiis(  rememlx'r  what  i(  is  in  (he  other 
cases. 

(i. — Hut  you  w«'nt  on  (he  business  of  all  (lie  seizures  of 
1SS7  (ogedier  widi  (lia(   of  (lie  "Tliornlon"   in    I8S(;?       A.— 

Y.'H. 

(i.— Yon  charged  (he  #1000  in  (lie  "TIiorn((m"  case.  You 
don't  mean  to  say,  d<»  you.  Captain  \\'aii-en,  dial  you  expend- 
ed #1000  in  (ravel  for'  tl Thornlon?"       A.— No,  I  haven't 

stated  that:  I  spent  #1,0(10  and  considerabh'  (ime. 


t  Sv 


m 


lO 


20 


30 


91P 

(J.  D.  Wp  .Tt'ii— Cross.) 

Q. — You  undertook  all  y  »ur  ilaims  fogother  wlu-n  you 
w«Mit  to  Ottawa?    A. — Wli  m  I  went  to  Ottawa,  yes. 

Q. — Now,  «litl  the  owne- s  of  the  otiier  ships  contribute  to- 
ward your  exjH'nses?  ... — They  did  in  one  trip  contribute 
toward  it. 

Q. — And  how  much  lid  they  contribute?  A. — I  don't  re- 
member now  what  '^icy  did  jiay  nie;  I  think  it  was  flOO  or 
sonietliinj;. 

ii. — find  eac'..'      A. —  I  (Idii'l  Hunk  it  was  as  nuicli  as  that. 
Q. — Did  y  a  ('liarfjc  liiciii   tor  all  your  expenses?       A. — I 
charjied  then  a  jtroportion  for  one  trij*  t<»  Ottawa. 

(-i. — Did  yon  cliar>ie  yourself  your  proportion?       .\. — Yes. 

Q. — Are  yod  sure  about  that?       Youi'  i)roportion  in  all  the 

ships  you  weic  interested  in?       A. — I  charged  sonu'  of  (hem. 

(.]. — <'an  you  jiive  us  any  clearer  idea  tlian  that?       A. — I 

don't  know;  let  me  see;  I  can't  j>ih(  reniembt'r  how  that  claim 

was  ma<le  up  .but  I  know  they  jiaid  me  a  proportion. 

Q. — Now,  when  was  the  steaisi  auxiliary  put  in?  A. — In 
ISHl. 

Q. — Then  I  think  yon  owned  oi'  controlled  the  "Dolphin," 
the  "Anna  Heck,"  the  "Kusthr,"  the  "Sayward."  and  the 
"Orace.''  in  addition  to  the  '•Thorut(m?"       A. — Yes. 

Q.— In  IHSl?       A.— Oh,  no;  I  didn't  have  them  all  then. 
(.}. — .lust  what  did  you  have  of  them  in  1881?       Y(m  hiid 
them  in   1882,  certainly,  according  to  your  statement;  how 
nmny  did  you  hr.ve  in"  1881?       A.— In  "'81  I  had  the  "Anna 
Heck''  and  "Thornton.'' 

Q.— The  "Dolphin?"       A.— No. 
Q.— The  'Sayward'?"      A.— No;  that  must  have  be.  a    il^  In 
'81,  just  ihem  two. 

Q. — Now,  what  other  business  did  yon  have  in  1881?  A. — 
Trading  on  the  coast,  on  the  west  coast. 

Q. — Did  you  have  head(juarters  here  and  an  oflict??  A. — 
Yes. 

<i- — AVliere  was  your  place  of  business?      A. — I  don't  know 
whether  I  had  any  oftice  in  1881   or  not. 
40       Q.— Then  yon  owned  the  "Thorntcm"  and  the  ".\nna  Heck" 
and  the  trading  stations  at  \  ancouver?      A. — I  don't  think  1 
kept  an  office  at  that  lime  except  in  my  own  house. 
Q. —  Did  you  have  any  one  employed  by  you?     A. — No. 
(i. — Did  you  do  youi-  own  ottice  work?      A. — Yes. 
(■i. — ^Do  you    keep   books?       A. — Yes, 

U- — You  iilwiiys  kejtt  books  from  that  time  on  in  this  busi- 
ness?      A. — Yes. 

(j. — Did  you  keep  tlu-m  yourself?      A. — Not  all  the  time, 
(i. — Some  of  the  time  did  you  eniitloy.a  biKtkkeeper?      A. — 
5C    Yes. 

(2.— -Vfter  that  did  you  have  an  ofHce,  after  1881?  A.— 
Yes,  I  started  an  ottice;  I  don't  know  just  what  lime  I  did 
have  an  ottice;  I  had  an  oilice  in  188-1  or  188r>,  I  think,  any 
way. 

Q. —  Vow  where  is  the  book  you  kept  of  your  trading  sta- 
tion and  your  shipjting  in  181^1?       A.— Flere  in  town. 
Q. —  You  ha\-  got  it  y<'t?       A. — Yes,  sir. 
H. — That    will    disclose   your   iiaymenls   for   this   auxiliary 
60   steam?      \.  -That  would  show  a  good  deal  of  it.  and  a  good 
deal  of  it   is  mixed. 

II. — And  if  you  have  lost  your  voucheis  you  have  not  lost 
your  books?      A. — No,  air. 

Q. — .\nd  you  kept  an  acccuinl,  did  you  not,  in  your  books 
of  the  supplies  with  whicli  the  tiading  stations  weie  stocked? 
A. —  Yes.  I  expect  i:(>\  tried  to. 

t^. — That  shows  by  your  bonks,  docs  it   not?       A. —  res. 


9"9 


Pf 


I'V 


10 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


(J.  1).  Wan-cii— Cross.) 

Q.— And  also  it  shows  the  tost  that  you  have  Kivuu  as 
|a,500,  without  your  own  labor,  uiton  the  'Thorutou?"  A.— 
It  shows  what  I  eau  fiud  of  it. 

y.— Do  you  ki't'p  regular  hooks  of  account?  A.— Well,  it 
was  this  way:  A  good  deal  of  tlie  accounts  in  tlic?  Ixtoks  were 
running  accounts  with  people,  and  it  is  pretty  hard  ut  this 
late  day  to  pick  it  oui 

Q.— Have  you  tried?  A —I  have  been  trying  to,  and  it  is 
pr<'tty  hard  to  do  it. 

*i— You  did  not  pay  out  any  money,  did  you,  captain,  with- 
out entering  it  in  your  books?      A.— I  don't  suppose  I  would. 

Q— Vou  had  books  of  entry  that  vou  kept  daily,  did  you 
not?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — Did  you  keep  a  ledge;?       A. — W'S. 

Q. — You  kept  a  ledger  and  day  book,  d'd  you  not?  A. — Yes, 
1  kept  them  as  well  as  1  could. 

Q. — Did  you  keep  a  cash  book?    A. — Yts. 

Q. — Did  you  keep  a  bank  account?  A. — Yes,  I  think  I 
kept  a  bank  iiccount. 

(■i. — Xow.  do  your  books  also  show  what  you  paid  for  the 
"Thornton"  when  you  bought  her?      A. — In  the  first  place? 

Q. — Yes.      A. — No,  I  don't  think  1  kept  any  books  then. 

(i.--Did  you  lake  a  bill  of  sale  of  her?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Have  you  got  the  bill  of  sale?      A. — No,  I  can't  find  it. 

C). — She  w.is  in  pretty  bad  shajie  when  you  bought  her,  was 
she  not,  captain?  An  old  'tH  boat,  pretty  rotten  and  full  of 
holes?       A. — nought  in  '(14. 

Q. — Was  she  in  pretty  bad  shajjc?  A. — No,  she  was  in 
pretty  fair  shaj)e. 

(.1. — She  had  been  knocked  about  a.  gmtd  deal  even  then, 
hadn't  she?      A. — She  had  been  freighting  a  good  deal. 

(i.— What  year  was  it  vou  put  the  f:{,5(H)  on  her?  A. — 
The  y(>ar  "77;  rtiiished  u])  in  '78,  commenced  in  '77. 

Q. — Was  she  pretty  rotten  then?  A. — No,  she  was  pretty 
!<()und. 

Q. — I  don't  nu'an  when  yon  ptit  the  auxiliary  steam  in  her; 
I  Jim  speaking  of  when  you  put  the  IJ  !,5()()  out  on  her?  A. — 
Yes. 

Q._Did  you  enlarge  her?       A.— Nw. 

Q. — Yet  she  was  ]»retty  sound?  A. — She  was  pretty 
sound;  a  few  of  her  knees  were  gone  down  under  the  decks. 

Q._She  had   been    sealing    before?       A.— Sh  >    had    been 

K-aling,  yes.  .     ,      ., 

Q._She  had  been  chopped  into  some;  some  holes  in  lier. 
A. — I  guess  tlial  didn't   hurl   her  much. 

Q.— Had  she  been  wrecked?  A.— Slie  got  a.-<hore  one 
lime. 

Q._\Vhen  was  that?  A.— I  think  it  was  in  1»S.{. 

(^._|>,nt  inior  lo  tiie  lime  liiat  you  put  I  lie  ifli.r.OO  out  on 
li,.,._y„u  say  you  piii  ilial  in  her  about  '77?  A.— No;  I 
think' this  is  aVterwaids;  I  think  it   was  in  '«{.  ^ 

Q._l|;id  sh.'  not  Ikvu  wreckt-d  before  you  put  the  «;.{,:)(«) 
into  her,  Caitlaln  Warren?      A.— No. 

Q.— Had  not   been  asluirn?       A.— No. 

Q._llow  man.v  limes  has  th<'  "Thornton"  been  wrecked. 
\.__\Vell,  1  don't  know  as  she  ever  was  wrecked.  She  got 
ashore  some  lime,  and  il  cost  me  considerable  lo  g<'l  her  off. 

Q._Wher.'  was  thai?      A.— Down  at  the  mouth  of  Barclay 

Sound.  ,    ,  .,   ,.  1 

Q-   Did  that  hurt  her  aiiv?      A.— T  don  t  know  as  il  did. 
Q__How  long  was  slie  on?       .V.— \V"1I,  I  can  liardly  say; 

perhaps  a  UKmlh.      We  had  t<.  send  i.eoi)le  down  from  here 

to  gel  her  <ifT. 
Q.— On  tire  rocks?     A.-No.  sand  flat. 


m 


ffl 

i  i 


mmm 


111. 


''I. 


lO 


20 


920 

(J.  D.  WaiTPn — CrosH.) 

Q. — Xi)w,  Captain  Wiirrcn,  did  slie  not  go  ashoro  and  i?o  on 
tlu'  r<)(  kH  prior  to  1877  when  you  put  tlic  |35l)0  on  lier? 
A.— Not  tliat  I  know  of. 

Q. — Was  it  Ix'fore  or  aftor  you  put  in  ihe  steam  auxiliary 
tliat  slu'  was  tarrying  coal?  A. — Used  to  carry  coal  iH'foro 
and  after. 

Q. — How  long  did  she  oari-y  coal  prior  to  the  timo  of  your 
jmlting  on  the  steam  auxiliary?  A. — I  don't  know  just 
when  I  did  c(mimence  to  carry  coal. 

i.i. — Cannot  y(m  fix  the  time?  A. — Probably  "fiO,  it  may 
be  later.  I  freighted  lumber  for  sonu'  time  when  I  first 
bought  her.  1  don't  just  remember  when  I  did  go  into  car- 
rying coal. 

(2. — You  have  told  us  of  the  James  Hay  (Joal  (Company 
as  having  gone  out  t>f  business  so  that  y«tu  cannot  get  dupli- 
cate vouchers  from  them.  That  was  your  own  money,  was 
it  not?       A.— Yes. 

Q. — Your  business?  A. — Well,  it  belonged  Vo  some  of  the 
family;  it  didn't  Ix'long  to  me. 

Q. — Had  you  no  interest  in  it?      A. — No. 

Q. — Who  had?      A. — It  belonged  to  my  wife. 

ii. — That  is  the  concern  that  is  gone  out  of  business,  is  it? 
A. — They  haven't  gone  out  of  business  altogether,  but  so 
far  as  that  yard  is  concerned,  it  went  (Uit  of  business.  I 
cajj't  find  the  day  book,  or  the  blotter,  where  they  entered 
the  daily  work  on. 

t^. — Did  the  "Thornton"  do  any  freighting  for  the  James 
Itay  <"omi>anv?       A. — Yes,  sometimes. 

(.1. — What  years?  A. — 'sr»  is  when  they  started;  I  sup- 
])os<'  they  did  freighting  most  anv  year,  aft»'r  thev  started. 

Q.— Did  the  "Thorntim"  do  freighting?  A.— She  did 
some,  yes. 

Q. — She  did  not  go  on  the  coast  sealing  in  1885,  did  she? 
A. — Oh,  yes,  she  Wi'iit  sealing. 

y. — And  when  did  she — if  the  James  Hay  Coal  t'<Hn]>any 
started  in  IHH.")  when  did  she  do  freighting  for  the  James  Bay 
40  Coal  Company?      A.— In  the  winter  and  fall  of  1885. 

Q. — After  she  came  back  from  sealing?  A. — After  she 
came  back  from  scaling,  they  started  the  yard  in  the  fall  of 
'85,  and  I  think  <]uile  likely  slie  carried  some  i-ini\. 

Q. — And  just  the  date  again  when  the  auxiliary  steam  was 
put  in  as  distinguished  from  the  |;{5()(»  expenditure?  A. — 
That  was  in  '81. 

ti. — And  then  when  slie  went  ashore  slu'  had  the  steam 
on?  A. — Slie  had  Ihe  steam,  ,is  near  as  I  can  rememb«>r;  I 
am  pretty  siii-e  that  was  in  ".s:{  that  slie  drove  ashore  down 
there. 

her  when  she  went  ashore?      A. — 


30 


50 


60 


Q. — Did  the  crew  leave 
Yes. 

Q. — And  liow  did  you  g<'l 
to  go  down  and  put  sonic 

Q. — Now  do  you   not    lliiiik   she  wiis  on  that 
months  instead  of  a  month  as  stated  bv  vou? 


her  ott?       A. — (lot  s(Mne  men  here 

ways  under  lier  and  hmnch  her  off. 

beach  three 

A.— I  don't 


-She 


A.— No.  I  don't 


know  just   how  long  slie  was  on  that   beach. 

t^.— Was  she  not  then'  two  moullis  and  a  half? 
may  have  been. 

ii. — .\nd  exposed  somewlial    (o  Ihe  sea? 
think  she  was  exjtosed  iiiiicli 

(i.— What  time  of  the  year  was  it,  Captain  Wan-en?  A. — 
AN'ell,  it  was  the  sumiiiei-  time  she  was  on  there,  it  was  the 
last  of  the  sealing;  we  got  her  olT  there  before  the  bad  wea- 
ther canu   on. 

C^.-  <"iiii  you  tell  us  from  this  map  of  the  southwesteni 
jMirt  of   Mrilisl'.  Colmnbiji.  Cajdain   Warren,  where  she  went 


m 


30 


it 


921 

(J.  I).  Wiini'ii— Cioss.l 

on?       A. — (Kxaminin;?) — 1   Ihiuk  she  \v«'iil    on  about     tliere 
(indicating). 

Q.- -Hoinewherf  near  Glayoquot  Sound,  was  it  not?  A. — • 
(indicating)  1  supjMtse  this  is  Teinplai-  Ishuul;  it  was  inside  of 
that,  on  tiiis  line  over  here  (indicating). 

Q. — Wliat  month  in  the  summer  was  this?       A. — I  tliink 
as  near  as  I  can  tell  it  must  have  been  about  -lune;  it  was 
10  the  latter  part  of  the  sealing. 

Q. — Hhe  was  engaged  in  sealing  at  the  time?  A. — She 
was  engaged  in  sealing. 

Q. — ('oast  sealing?  A. — Yes,  then  I  was  waitiMfi,  until  the 
finest  weather  of  the  summer  to  get  her  off. 

i}. — Did  the  crew  come  from  X'ictoi-ia?      A. — I  (hink  so. 
(i. — And  how   wer''  they   brouglit  down?       A. — 1   supjiose 
likely  brought  on  the  other  ves.sel;  I  don't  retnemln'r  the  par- 
ticulars of  it. 

Q. — You    do    not    remember    what    vessel    brought    thejn 
20  down?      A. — No. 

Q. — Can  you  not  fix  the  date  by  your  settlement  with  the 
crew?      A. — I  think  it  is  doubtful. 

Q. — Your  books  would  show  that,  would  they  not?  A. — 
Kind  of  dimbtful  if  they  would  show  a  settlement  of  that 
kind. 

Q. — Now,  in  regard  to  your  vouchers,  the  statement  that 
you  made  at  Ottawa  to  which  Sir  ('harles  calle<l  your  atten- 
tion, was  made,  you  say,  when  the  vouchers  were  at  hand? 
A. — It  was  from  the  statement  taken  of  vouchers. 

Q. — That  you  had?  A. — Yes,  tlu»  statement  was  taken 
from  the  books  and  memorandum  of  the  different  bills  from 
diff«'rent  dealers. 

Q. — Taken  from  your  books?      A. — Yes,  sir. 
Q. — And  none  of  those  books  are  lost?       A. — Them  books 
are  here. 

Q. — Now  your  memory,  you  think,  was  better  at  that  time 
— at  the  time  you  made  the  staicuKMif  at  Ottawa — than  now? 
A. — The  facts  were  all  frcsli  in  my  mind. 
40  Q. — Yet  you  have  had  tliosc  vouihers  and  gone  over  those 
same  items  in  litigation  riglit  iiere  in  Victoria?  A. — Of 
188(J? 

Q. — Yes?  A. — No,  1  never  went  over  the  '8(»  voiuhers — 
the  other  vou<'hcrs — the  'Mt;  vouchers,  I  don't  know  what  be- 
came of  them. 

Q. — What  other  vouchers;  yonr  direct  examination  was  di- 
rected to  the  "Thornton"  rase  in  ISSfi?       A.— Well,  1  got  my 
mind  on  my  general  luisiness  I  have  lieen  (luestioned  about 
-Q    different  years. 

•>  Q._Was  not  the  "Thornton,"  and  your  dealings  with  tlie 

"Thornton,"  involved  in  those  litigations?      .V.— The  outfit  of 

the  "Thornton"  in  tliat  litigation  was  not  brought  into  court. 

Q.— Hut    the   "Thornton"    was  involved   in   that  litigation? 

A.— The  "Thonilon"  herself. 

Q. — Then  you  don't  mean  to  b.'  understood  that  in  the  liti- 
gation all  yiiur  cviilence  disaii]»eared  or  was  lost  regarding 
the  "Thoiiiton"  out  lit?  A.— .\  bout  those  vouchers  of  the 
"Thornton."  I  don't  ifutciuber  what  bet.une  of  them. 
^O  Q.-  Tliey  did  not  disappear  in  tii.-  litigation?  A.— I  don't 
hardly  think  llml  llie  "Thornton's  vouchers  went  into  court; 
that  is,  the  outfit. 

Q.— .\nd  when  was  that  litigation?  A.--Tt  commenced  in 
1<i.*<0  and  continiK'd  right  on  to  now  iireity  nearly. 

Q.__So  what<  ver  items  that  iitigalion  did  involve  they  were 
called  to  vcnir  altenlioti  sin<-  1SS!»  tlnvugh  thai  litigation; 
whatever  iicconnis  they  did  involve  with  reference  to  sealing 


m 


j. 


ii 


!,! 


(.1.   I).   Wiirrcn— (M-(»ss.     Jolin   AiMlcrscn— Diroef.) 

ships— soaliiiK  s.  liooncis  wciv  niailu'dlv  cnlli.il  (o  yoiir  iiiiiul 
iis  tlu-y  were  matei'iul  in  that  litiKation?      A.— Yes,  some  «.f 
the  sealinjj;  biisinesH  would  be. 

Q.— So  that,  having  tiiem  called  to  .voiii-  attention  later 
than  1887,  youi-  meniory  would  be  better,  would  it  not  than 
It  IS  now  as  to  what  yon  Htted  out  in  18S(i,  for?  A.— No 
when  I  was  getting  supplies  for  the  vessel;  for  instance.  Hhip' 
10  chandlery,  when  I  got  the  bill  of  goods  I  nuirked  what  was 
to  be  charged  to  one  accc  i;nt  and  what  to  another,  for-the 
bookkeeper,  and  the  vouchers  then  were  jtretty  fresh  in  my 
memory.  Kven  if  I  had  the  vouchers  to-day  it  would  be  very 
hard  for  nie  to  .separate  them  as  well  as  I  could  have  done 
then. 

(I. — But  your  b(M>kkeeper  «-arried  out  your  instructions  and 
entered  them?       A. — 1  e.xpect  she  did. 

Q. — Have  voi:  not  look(>d  to  ascertain  as  to  the  amounts 
involved  in  .\our  claim  against  the  Fi'ited  Slates?  A. — As 
a  general  thing  I  looked  through  the  accounts. 

Q. — You  have  looked  at  the  books  to  asceitain  and  refresh 
your  memory,  have  you  not?  A. — In  188(i  J  didn't  1  ave  much 
to  do  with  the  books. 

Q. — But  sine*'  18S(!  you  have  been  ]>resenting  claims  to 
your  own  Government?  A. — 1  have  looked  at  the  books  con- 
siderable. 

Q. — And  in  connection  with  making  up  youi  claims,  Tiav  > 
yon  not?      A. — Y'es. 


20 


30 


At  o  p.m.  the  ronimissioners  rose. 


i!'l|l:| 


OommisaionerB  under  the  Convention  of  February  8,  1896,  between 
40        Oreat  Britain  and  the  United  States  of  America 

Chambers  of  the  Legislative  i^ssembly, 

At  Victoria,  December,  29,  1896. 

At  l(t:;iO  a.m.  the  Commissioners  took  their  seats. 

John  Andersen  was  called  as  a  witness  on  the  jtart  of  CJreat 
Britain  and  duly  sworn.  (Calle<l  out  of  order,  by  ((msent,  in 
the  "\Y.  P.  Say  ward"  case.  (Maim  No.  <).) 

50         Direct  examination  by  Sir  Charles  Ililtbert   Tapper: 

il. — You  hold  a  masters"  ("oast  Certificate,  do  you  not? 
A.— Yes. 

Q. — And  own  a  tug  boat?       A. — Yes,  a  small  tug  boat. 

Q. — A    little  lug  boat   called   the  '•Constance?'"       .\. — Yes. 

Q. — She  is  now  in  jiori?       A. — Yes. 

(j. — And  you  have  to  leave  N'ictoria?  A. — 1  have  to  leave 
today  or  to-morrow. 

(I. — You   are  coiisiing?       A. — Yes,   sir. 
60       Q. — What  were  you  on  the  "Sayward"  in  ISS"?  A.— I  was  a 
deck  hand. 

(j. — .\boiil  what  time  did  yon  join  that  shij)?  \. — I 
joined  in  11:-'  spring;   I   think  about   May. 

Q. — Where  did  you  jivin  Ik-i?  .\. — Uown  at  Dodge's  Cove, 
Barclay  Sound. 

Q.^ — Do  you  reniembei'  who  was  tlie  inastei?  \ — Yes,  sir. 
Captain   F'erry. 

Q. — .\nd  tile  male''     .\. — Andrew  Laing. 


92  3 


20 


(.Toliii  Andorsen — Direcf.) 

Q. — Do  you  rt'iuoiubcr  wlmt  crow  you  liiid?  A. — I  do  not 
romcinber  ixnctly,  hut   I  think  about  20,  all  told. 

Q. — Do  .you  renicniher  any  of  the  nanieH?  A. — Only  the 
captain  and  the  mate,  and  a  hunter  named  Davie. 

Q.-VVas  he  a  white  man?       A. — Yes. 

ii. — Where  is  he  now?       A. — He  went  away  two   we<>k8 
ago  on  some  schooner. 
lo       Q. — He  went  out  staling?      A. — Out  sealing. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  any  of  the  other  hunters?  A. — No, 
I  do  not  I'emember. 

(.1. — Did  you  have  a  white  crew  or  an  Indian  crew?  A. — 
An  Indian  crew. 

Q. — Where  did  you  get  the  Indians?  A. — We  got  them 
in  Dodge's  Vow. 

Q. — By  the  way,  do  you  happen  to  know  what  place  the 
man  Davie  lias  gone  to?  A. — It  must  have  been  over  to 
the  Japan  coast. 

Q. — You  liad  been  sealing  one  year  before,  had  you  not? 
A. — I  was  in  the  "Favourite''  in  188(>. 

Q. — What  w<!re  you  doing  in  the  "Favourite?"  A. — I  was 
a  deckhand. 

Q. — Did  you  hunt  any  other  year?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — You  went  into  Behring  Sea  in  1887  for  the  first  and 
only  time?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  what  time  you  got  into  the  Sea? 
A. — No,  I  did  not  keep  any  log. 
30       Q- — Have  you  any  idea  as  to  the  month  you  entered    the 
Sea?      A. — About  July,  I  think;  we  got  seized  in  the  middle 
of  July. 

Q. — What  kind  of  provisions  had  you  on  board  the  "Say- 
ward?"  A. — W(?  had  all  kinds  of  salt  beef,  canncnl  meat, 
canned  food. 

Q.— Pilot  bread?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — What  else?      A. — I  know  we  had  some  codfish. 

Q. — Had  you  plenty  of  provisions?      A. — IMenty. 

Q. — When  you  joined  that  vessel  at  Dodge's  Cove  to  go  in- 
40  to   Hehnng  Sea.  when  did  you  exjtect   to  return,  for  what 
length  of  tiip  did  you  expect  to  go?       A. — October  or  No- 
vember. 

Q. — You  expected  to  be  back  here  in  October  or  Novem- 
ber?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  were  the  Indians  fed  on?  A. — They  were  fed 
on  rice  and  biscuits,  sugar  and  tea. 

Q.— Did  tliey  catch  their  own  fish?  A.— They  bring  their 
own  fish. 

Q.— They  brought  dried  fish  with  them?       A.— Yes. 

Q. — In  aditioii  lo  wliat  vom  lii'v<'  mentioned?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — That  is  to  say,  they  got  ilieir  other  supplies  on  board, 
and  they  brought   and  ate  their  dried  fish?       A. — Yes. 

Q.— liad   they  seal  meat,   too?       .V.--()h,  yes. 

Q. — Do  voti  remember  tlie  seizure  of  the  "Savward"  in 
1HS7?       A."— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  were  on  lioard?       .\. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Now,  after  the  seizure,  where  was  tlie  vessel  taken  to? 
A. — Sh  '  was  taken  to  Ouiialaska. 
60       Q. — V,  liat  way  did  she  go  to  Ounalaska?      A.— They  towed 
us  in. 

Q. — The     utter  owed  you  into  Ounalaska?       A. — Yes. 

Q. — And  ii'  Ounaiiiska.  what  was  done  with  the  schooner? 
A. — They  too'    us  in  (here. 

Q.— W'.fo  dl«'  that?      A.— The  otllcers  from  the  cutter. 
Q. — >\'iie!'e  was  yoiii-  ship  put?       .\. — We  were  just  lying 
at  anchor. 


50 


1 

Wv 

1 ;;  ■. :  • 

1; 

i       :  t 

■ 

I  ■ 

■i!i'iii.i 


at 
on 


30 


924 

(.lolin  Andersen — Direct.) 

<i.— What  was  done  witli  yonr  boalH?  A.— Tlie  boats  wen- 
left  on  board. 

Q— Wlio  remained  on  board  when  .von  were  at  anchor 
there?      A. — The  crew  were  on  board. 

Q.— WaH  there  any  one  phiced  on  the  shi|)  from  the  entter? 
A. — I  do  not  remend)er  that. 

Q.— I>o  you  remember  a  watchman  beinsj  put  on  board 
10   !''"?      A.— I  do  not  rei.. ember  that  tiiere  was  a  watchman 
board. 

(i.— A(  any  time  after  the  seizure?  A,— There  was  a  man 
♦came,  but  lliat  was  aftr-r  we  start.'d  away  from  Ounahiska. 

Q.— ITow  hinff  were  yon  at  Onnahiska?  A.— I  liave  for- 
jrotten  now. 

Q.— After  beiiif,'  Wwiv  for  a  lime,  yon  say  lliat  the  man 
went  witli  yon  somewliere?       A. — Yes,  to  Siika. 

(^— Who  was  (he  man?      A.— He  was  tlie  quartermaster, 
I  believe,  from  ilie  cutter. 
20       (i.— How  did  you  go  to  Mitiia  with  this  fiuartermaster?     A. 
— We  saih'd  there. 

Q.— And  all  the  rest  of  the  crew  on  board?      A.— Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Indians  loo?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  they  remain  on  board  when  you  were  at  Ounalas- 
ka  and  start  from  there  to  Sitka  with  this  (imirtermaster  in 
charge?       A. — Yes. 

Q. — When  you  got  to  Sitka  where  did  you  go?  A. — I 
stayed  on  board. 

ti. — Did  your  vessel  come  to  anchor  or  go  to  the  wharf? 
\. — She  came  to  anchor. 

Q. — What  occurred  theie?  A. — Nothing.  We  stayed  on 
board  for  a  little  while  there. 

Q. —  Did  this  (luarterinaster  leave  you?  A. — I  do  not  re- 
member if  lie  went  on  shore  or  if  another  man  came  on  board. 
1  cannot  tell  you. 

Q. — Was  some  one  on  board  from  the  cutter?      A. — Y'es. 

Q. — As  far  as  you  recollect,  whether  he  remained  or  some 
one  else  came  in  his  stead,  there  was  some  one  else  there  in 
40    chai'j,e  outside  of  your  crew?       A. — Yes. 

ii. — How  long  did  you  remain  at  Sitka?  A. — I  think  about 
a  week. 

Q. — And  during  that  week  you  remained  on  board?  A. — 
Yes. 

Q. — W^ere  there  any  rules  in  regard  as  to  when  you  could 
go  on  shore,  or  could  you  go  ashore  when  you  liked,  or  come 
back?      A. — AVe  couhl  go  when  we  liked. 

Q. — That  is  your  recollection?      A. — Yt's,  sir. 

Q. — Were  you  ashore,  as  a  matter  of  fact?  A. — We  used 
to  go  ashore  in  the  day  time. 

i}. — What  time  did  you  go  back?      A. — In  the  evening. 

Q. — How  did  you  go  ashoie?  A. — In  tlie  boats  and  ca 
noes. 

Q. — \Yere  strangers  g<ting,  could  I'ley  go  on  the  shij)?  A. 
— I  never  minded  tliai  llien-  were  any  strang'-i's  going  on 
board. 

Q. — Where  did  you  go  after  yon  remained  there  for  a  week? 
A. — I  worked  my  ])aiisage  on  a  little  schooner  to  Juneau. 
60       Q. — \Yh«>  w<'!it  with  you?       A. — Four  (U'  five  more. 

Q. — From  tlu-  "Sayward?"  A.— I  do  not  think  there  was 
any  one  from  the  "Sayward." 

Q. — You  v,'ere  the  only  one  from  the  "Sayward"  that  j'ou 
remember?       .\. — Yes. 

Q. — Relore  you  went  to  .Ttineau  did  you  take  any  food  from 
the  shiii?       A.— Just  a  little. 

Q. — Flow  many  boats  with  yon?       .S. — Four. 

Q.— Who  took  food?      .\.--i  look  it  from  the  "Savward." 


50 


■,  \ 


13 


20 


9-i 
(.loliii  Andcim'ii— Diir.M— C'loMs.) 

Q.— What  was  it?  A.— A  littU'  laiuu'il  beef  aud  biscuits, 
and  oiu>  tiling  jiud  auutlici-. 

^i— ^V'l"  Kiivt-  it  to  you  on  the  "Sayward?"  A.— I  do  not 
rcnuMnlM'r  who  jjavi-  ii  to  us. 

Q.— Did  ;\-ou  ju-  tala-  it?  A.— I  d.>  not  iciucniltLT  wht'lh- 
t-r  [  (ooiv  it  or  wlu'liit  r  Honu-  oiu'  els*   <j;av('  it  to  inc. 

(i.— What  Hhij>  did  you  ^o  to  .Muk-uu  on?  A.— A  little 
schooner. 

I  i^~\^  ''I*  ''■'"'  '•'■"^■''""K  «'"'  H'lioonci?      A.— I  don-t  know; 
1  torgt't  the  man  s  name. 

1  •/.(".' *'',V"'  ""•'""■'<"'«  provide  it?      A.— Oh,  no;  it  was  a 
little  trading  Kchooner. 

(i.— That  .voii  got  I'assage  on?      A.— Yes. 
(i.— Did  yon  jiay  for  it  yoiir.s.'lf?      A.— I  just  worked  mv 
passage,  (hat  is  all. 

(i.— \'ou  worked  your  passage  fioin  Sitka  to  Juneau?  A. 
■ — Yes. 

(i.— How  far  is  tliat?  A.— I  don't  know  how  manv  miles, 
but  it  takes  about  a  week's  time. 

li.— What  did  you  do  in  .Tuneau?  .\.— I  worked  in  the 
Btanip  mill  at  Douglas  Island  for  a  little  while. 

(i.— Did  you  work  there  to  get  money  to  come  home?  A.— 
Yea. 

<i— W'hen  did  you  go  home?       A.— Tn  Oetober. 

Q.— Do  you   remember  Iiow   many   boats  you   had   or.   thi- 
"Sayward?"      A. — I  think  there  were  eight  Or  nine  canoes; 
something  like  that,  but  I  don't  rimember. 
^         Q.— Yon  had  just  outfit  for  the  Indians?      A.— Tliat  i«  all. 

Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Warren: 

ti.— Do  you  mean  to  say  that  yon  took  provisions  off  the 
"Sayward"'  to  feed  yourself  aud  the  four  men  who  went  to 
Jiineaii,  or  did  you  just  take  what  did  for  yourself?  A. — I 
only  took  for  myself.  The  rest  took  something  from  the  other 
schooners. 

il. — And  you  said  von  took  veiy  little?      A. — Jnat  enough 
'^^   to  take  us  to  Juiiean,  that  is  all. 

(.i. — When  you  were  asked  whether  you  knew  you  had  suf- 
ficient provisions  on  l)oard  or  not,  do  you  mean  that  up 
to  the  time  you  were  seized  you  had  enough  to  eat?  A. — 
We  had  plenty  of  grub  and  plenty  of  provisions  on  the  "Say- 
ward."' 

(i. — You   would  not  jnetend  to  say  the  amount  of  ])rovis- 
ions  that  was;  in  ihe  hold  of  the  sliij*?       A. — I   would  not 
know  how  much  provisions  there  was,  but  I  know  there  was 
CO   plenty  on  board. 

i}. — Quite  enough,  so  far  as  you  were  concerned?  A. — 
Yea,  sir. 

Q. — You  say  that  you  expected  to  get  back  some  time  in 
October  or  November?     A. — Something  like  that. 

(J. — W']\;\\  do  yon  mean  by  saying  something  like  that? 
.\. — Well,  about  October  they  used  to  come  back  from  the 
Hehring  Sea  in  those  years.  I  had  never  lieen  up  there  my- 
self, but  I  believe  others  did. 

Q. — Will  yon  tell  us  a  boat 
60    ISSfi?     .\. — No,  I  cannot  tell. 

Q. — Will  you  tell  me  a  boat 
ISS"?      A.— I  don't  know. 

(J. — What  makes  you  say  that  they  used  to  come  back  in 
October  and  November?  A.— I  know  that  if  you  stayed  long 
on  the  coast  yon  might  be  some  time,  a  week  or  two,  before 
you  got  into  the  Sea. 

Q. — I  am  not  lalkina  about  whi-n  you  got  into  the  IJehring 
Sea.      (^an  voii  tell  me  aiiv  l>.»at  (hat  arrived  here  fr(»ni  the 


i! 


that  came  back  in  October, 
that   came  liack  in  ()ct<»ber, 


tl).' 


10 


20 


.1.    \).    WiUTl'U— CrOMH.) 

A. — I  (htii't  know 


gi6 

(John  AiKh-iHcu — C'ikhm. 

Hchrini;  Sea  In  the  month  of  NovcnilMT? 
iiM  I  c'onhl. 

il — How  (little  it  tliat  von  cxiicctcd  to  slii.v  in  the  Sea  nntil 
sncli  lime  an  .vcni  onl.v  wonid  he  iil)lt>  (o  rcacii  Victoria  in  Xo- 
vcnibcr.  when  the  nianapn-  of  tlic  tied  cxiM'clt'd  to  p't  liac-k 
Konic  lime  in  Hcj.tcnilMT?  A.— Tliiil  in  what  we  sailors  cal- 
tulalt'd;  we  intcndeil  to  be  hack  ahoiit  October. 

Q.— Yon  do  not  moan  to  my  that  vou  heard  tliat  expreission 
from  the  mana^^er  of  tin-  tieot?  A.— Oli,  no;  tliat  is  wluit  we 
ima>.rined,  tliat  is  all. 

Q— Von  do  not  base  that  on  any  exiiieHsion  that  von  heard 
the  captain  or  Mr.  Warren  nse?      A.— No. 

Q.— Yon  said  that  von  were  deck  hand  on  the  "Favonrito" 
in  ]88<(?      A.— Yes. 

Q  Where  w-oro  yon  tliat  year?  A. -Down  here  on  the 
coast,  that  is  all. 

Q.— Yon  were  not  in  Rehrine:  Sen?       \  — No 

is?r7^T  ^T  ""!  ""  t''^  "Fnvonrite"  in  BehrinK  Sea  in 
1886?      A.— No,  not  in  the  Behring  Sea. 


'    .1. 


I 


30 


40 


S=> 


60 


James  1).  Warren,  a  witness  called  on  the  part  of  Great 
Britain  lu  the  case  of  the  "Thornton/"  recalled  for  cross-ex- 
amination. 

Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Dickinson  continued: 

(i.— Can  yon  now  (ix  the  year  that  the  "Thornton"  was 
ashore.'  A.— She  went  on  shore  in  June,  188;{,  and  was  L'ot 
ott  in  August,  1SH;{.  ^ 

Q.— She  was  abont  two  and  one  half  months  there'  A  — 
les,  as  near  as  I  can  place  it. 

(i.— Now,  in  the  year  188;$,  after  she  was  f^ot  off,  did  vou 
liave  anything  to  do  witli  reference  to  the  "Thornton"  with 
Joseph   Boscowitz,  Victoria?       A. — In  188.1? 

Q.— Yes,  sir.      A.— It  is  most  likely  I  had. 

Q.— In  the  fall  of  that  year  yon  tjave  Jos<'ph  Boscowitz  a 
inortKase  for  .54.()0(t?  A.— Yes,  sir;  it  was  abont  tiiat;  I 
think  so;  abont  that  time,  I  think. 

Q.— That  was  after  she  got  off?  A.— That  was  after  she 
tfot  off. 

Q.— And  that  was  the  year  that  yon  had  the  dealing  with 
Boscowitz.  tlw  same  y<'iir  she  pit  oH?  A. — Yes,  the  same 
year. 

Q.— I  see  yon  have  a  map  in  yonr  hand;  does  that  one  suit 
yon  to  show  where  the  vessel  went  ashore?  A. — Yes;  some 
one  told  me  I  stated  at  Barclay  Sound  yesterday.  If  I  did, 
it  was  T'layoqiKit. 

Q.— That  i.t  what  I  was  tryiii;,'  to  }ret  yon  to  say.  and  yon 
insisted  that  it  was  Barclay  Sound.  Please  explain  now 
where  she  went  ashore?  A. — Slie  was  cominji  into  (Mayo- 
qiiot  Sound,  witliont  steam,  I  understand.  As  near  as  I  can 
jilace  it  slie  went  on  tlie  sand  flats  off  the  bay.  It  is  a  shoal 
there. 

Q. — Captain  Warren,  I  followed  yon  atteiitivt'ly  yesterday, 
and  because  T  am  in  some  confusion  of  mind  myself  I  assume 
tliat  the  learned  <"oniniissioTiers  may  be.  and  I  have  endeav- 
ored to  arrive  at  some  metlMtd  of  examiniii};'  yon  with  ih'- 
fjard  to  the  property  on  th<'  ship  tliat  was  taken.  My  method 
shall  be  as  bri.'f  as  possible.  Will  yon  be  }jood  enoiifrh  to 
look  at  tlie  inventory  which  is  in  evidence  as  |tart  of  Exhibit 
45  G.B. — look  at  page  22  of  that  exhibit  and  the  following 


9^7 


piiKCN,  iiiitl  ti'll  iiif  to  tlif  ItfHt  of  ,v<)Ui-  kiiowltMl^)'  and  belief 
wliftlicr  all  or  that  in-opi'rt.v  wan  on  tlu>  Hliip  at  tlic  tini*'  of 
tlic  Hciznif?  A. —  I  Ncc  tliicc  hoatK  in  one  phuv,  and  tiwiv 
slionhl  have  )><'<>n  four. 

ii. —  l-ook  tliroiifilioiit.  I  sinipl.v  ask  von  wlictlicr  till  the 
pro|M'rty  tlicro  j^ivon  was  on  I  lie  sliip,  to  llic  l»'st  of  voiir 
kno\vlc(l;,'c  and  iH-licf;  not  wlictlii'r  tlicrc  is  anv  oniittt-d.  Inif 
lO  wlu-tlMM'  to  the  best  of  .voni'  knowlodp'  and  lu'licf  all  that 
l»ro]»ci"tv  was  on  I  he  whip  as  inventoried  there?  A. — I  see 
twelve  tons  of  coal;  I  wonid  not  like  to  sav  thei-e  were  12 
tons  left  at  that  time.  Of  ecnirse  I  w(Hild  not  say  thi're 
were  not.  Of  conrse.  so  far  as  the  sealskins  were  eoncern- 
ed,  from  jK'rsonal  knowledjfe  I  cannot  say  as  to  them.  I 
see  some  of  these  things  rejx'aled  in  that  list.  I  see  thi'ee 
boats  are  in  one  place  and  fonr  boats  in  another. 

Q. — Fonr  boats  was  correct,  was  it?  A. — Foiir  wonId  be 
coirect. 
20  Q, — Anythin,'!  else?  A. — Thert>  nniy  be  some  things  »'«'■ 
peated  and  others  that  I  have  misH<'d.  Thei-**  is  one  item 
liere  (»f  one  hundred  pounds  of  lard.  As  far  as  I  can  find 
in  my  books,  I  do  not  find  one  hundred  ])onnds  charp'd  to  ber. 
I  think  I  can  only  find  six  boxes  of  bread  charfjed  in  the 
books;  I  have  no  doubt  the  boat  must  have  had  considerable 
more  bread  than  that  on  board,  but  I  connot  And  the  entries. 

Q. — I  will  come  to  that  branch  of  the  matter  in  a  moment. 

What  I   want   to  know  now  is  whether,  to  the  best  of  your 

knowlcdfie.  these  thinfjs  were  on  the  ship.       To  the  best  of 

^     yoiir  knowledfje  and  belief  were  the  three  sails  on  the  ship? 

A. — The  three  sails? 

Q. — Yea.  A. — I  cannot  say  positively,  but  there  were  two 
nniinsails. 

Q. — Oujjht  not  you  to  know  where  the  other  sails  came 
from?  A. — I  can  only  account  for  it  in  this  way.  In  the 
sitrinp  she  came  out  with  a  new  suit,  and  she  mi^ht  have  had 
an  old  extra  mainsail  for  fear  of  accident. 

i}. — Have  you  not  fjiveu  that  matter  any  attention?      A. — 
^"^  I  cannot  tell;  it  would  be  a  second-hand  sail,  anyway. 

Q. — It  would  not  be  worth  much?  A. — It  would  not  be  a 
valuable  sail. 

Q. — Is  there  anythiufj  else  you  want  to  call  attention  to 
that  you  wotild  not  like  to  say  was  on  the  ship  to  the  best 
of  your  knowledfic?  A. — There  niipht  be  other  things  re- 
jH'ated  which  in  t;*''"tr  <)ver  that  list  I  mi};lit  miss. 

Q. — Toll  ns  what  was  on  the  ship  that  you  know  (^f  that 
was  not  on  that  invent<u'y?  A. — I  think  tliis  appears  to  me 
to  Ih'  pretty  comjilete. 

Q. — It  does  not  apjM'ar  to  you  that  there  is  anything  else? 
A. — Fr(un  memory.  I  do  not  know  that  my  memory  recalls 
anything  now  that  I  can  think  of. 

(.}. — It  sei'ins  to  be,  does  it  not,  a  very  careful  and  faithful 
inventory?  It  seems  to  you,  as  a  claimant,  and  allegeil  own- 
er of  the  ship,  to  be  that?  A. — As  far  as  I  can  see.  If  my 
attention  was  called  to  something  in  particular,  I  might 
know  something  that  was  there  but  which  I  cannot  think  of 
now.       It  is  very  hard  to  remember  everything. 

Q. — Instead  of  going  through  it  item  by  item,  and  taking 
a  bmg  time.  I  have  taken  this  method?  A. — The  gnus  would 
be  taken  ot¥  the  vess(>l  before  this.  I  supjjose  the  guns  and 
amunition  are  not  in  this  inventory  at  all.  They  are  gener- 
ally taken  oft"  at  the  time  of  seiztire. 

(J. — Turn  now  to  page  r>()  of  this  exhibit,  Nn.  45,  and  state, 
does  not  this  contain  a  proper  account  of  the  guns?  A. — I 
think  likely. 


SO 


60 


IMAGE  EVALUATION 
TEST  TARGET  (MT-3) 


// 


^>. 


:<if 


1.0 


I.I 


125 


lAil2.8 

■u  Itt   12.2 

•f  Hi    "^ 
Sf   !«£    12.0 

u 


1^1 


1.4 


1^ 


^ 


/. 


y 


Hiotograi^c 

Sdences 

Corporation 


23  VmST  f<'A  <M  STMIT 

WIISTIR,N.Y.  MSM 

(7l6)t72-4S03 


ji<if 


? 


Rr  I 


I 


\S'..\ 


t\'<."' 


lO 


3« 


938 

(J.    U.    WjII'I-OH — Cl'OBH.) 

(i.— And  ainiiiiiiiitiun?  A.— I  think  likely  that  would 
fontain  a  proixM-  arcoinit. 

Q. — It  containH  th»'  niiinl)«T  of  k<'»8?  A. — Tlu'  niinn  tally 
with  mine.  Then'  wort*  riflinj  and  Hhotfrium  credited  in  niyac- 
fount  that  makeH  mine  tally  the  name  with  that. 

g. — Xow,  if  y«»u  deHire  to  take  any  further  time  for  rouHid- 
eration.  I  think  it  w<»uid  be  a  HavinK  of  time  if  you  would  look 
at  that  inventory  and  state  if  there  is  anything  else,  to  the 
best  of  your  knowledge,  on  the  "Thoraton"  whieh  is  not  em- 
bnieed  in  the  inventory  contained  in  exhibit  45?  A. — It 
w(Hild  b<>  hard  for  me  t(»  state  that  without  comparing  what 
went  on  board  of  her. 

(i. — You  have  not  don«'  that?  A. — No,  I  don't  think  it 
has  Imhmi  all  c«mipaivd,  n(»t  as  far  as  I  am  concerned;  some 
of  the  things,  I  believe,  have  been  compared.  They  looked 
up  the  rifles  and  guns. 

ii. — I'pon  this  claim,  do  you  ]>ropose  to  put  in  a  compnri- 
20  Hon  later?      You  say  they  are  beinp  htoked  up?      A. — I  said 
that  some  of  the  articles  have  lieen  compared,  but  I  do  not 
know  that  all  of  them  have  been. 

(i. — You  found  no  discrepancy  in  the  statement  made,  ex- 
cept those  which  are  in  favor  of  your  account  here?  A. — 
Home  of  these  things  wen-  found. 

(J. — And  y«)u  make  up  your  inventory — y<»ur  estimate  of  the 
values  in  gi'oss,  of  supplies?  A. — I  don't  know  whether  the 
whole  thing  is  made  u]»  yet  or  not. 

Q. — IMd  you  make  it  up  for  this  hearing?  A. — I  have  not, 
but  I  don't  know  what  the  s«»licitor  may  have  done. 

Q. — You  have  not  made  it  up?  A. — I  assisted  the  man 
nniking  it  u]),  and  I  suppose  he  has  flnish(><l  it,  but  I  do  not 
know  just  what  the  total  is  myself. 

Q. — You  have  not  that  with  you?      A. — No,  I  haven't  that. 

(i. — I  think  I  understood  you  to  say  it  has  \)een  figured 
o;.t.  and  you  think  it  is  finished?  A. — There  has  been  a  man 
nniking  uji  a  statement. 

Q. — For  you?      A. — For  the  claimant. 

Q. — For  you?       A. — Yes. 

ii. — And  with  your  assistance?  A. — Mv  assistance,  some 
of  it. 

Q. — .\nd  that  stateiiK'nt  you  have  not  with  you?  A. — No. 

Sir  ('.  n.  Tupper: — I  do  not  think  he  understands  what  you 
are  n-ferring  to. 

.Mr.  IHckinwm:— Well.  I  will  ask.  (To  witness)  Q.— Of 
course  I  refer  to  the  things  found  on  the  ship,  and  I  have  so 
said.  .\. — .My  statement  is  of  the  things  that  went  on  board 
the  ship. 

Q. — That   is  the  statenuMit   yon  have  made?       A. — Yes. 

(j. — You  have  nuide  no  deduction  then,  for  the  things  that 
may  have  biM'U  us<>d  on  the  ship?  A. — No,  I  thought  that 
would  be  for  after  consideration. 

ii. — You  said  you  had  two  guns  credite«l  back;  how  were 
they  credited  back?  A. — I  think  oiu'  of  the  guns  is  credited 
to  one  of  the  <»ther  ships  and  charg4>d  to  the  other. 

(i. — Did  you  get  back  any  of  (he  guns  mentitmed  in  the 
inventorv,  in  Kxhibit  15?  A. — Did  I  get  any  of  tiie  guns 
back? 

t^. — Yes.     \. —  I  do  not  (hink  I  did;  I  don't  remember. 

(i. — Is  t!iere  anything  in  that  schcnluh'  or  inventory  that 
\o»  did  get  back?     .\. — Is  the  chronometer  In  that? 

(i.— Yes.     A.— I  got  that  back. 

(f. — .\nd  you  have  so  stated  already.  V.xt  is  there  any- 
thing else  you  got  back?  \, — I  cannot  remember;  I  don't 
think  it. 


40 


50 


60 


929 


30 


(..J.  D.  Warien — Cross.) 

Q.— Did  you  atleiid  tlie  wile?     A.— Of  lh«'H«>  num": 
Q,— Yes'     A.— I  «!o  ii<..l  Imnllv  tliiuk  tluit  the  "Tlioiiitoii" 
was  in  tlieiu. 

Q.— Vou  do  uot  think  that  \\w  "Thornton"  was  in  them? 
A. — I  cannot  wiy  now,  if  tlie  nmw  of  the  "Tliomton"  in  1887 
wei-e  there;  1  ani  not  positive. 

Q. — N«»w,  vf>u  sji.v  you  di>  not  know  as  to  the  number  of 
•  o   seals.     The  !o(j  that  you  pn>duc<'d  yesterday  contains  a  state- 
ment of  tlie  catch,  does  it  not?     A.— I  think  likely  it  mi^ht; 
1  would  not  Ix'  i>rtsitive  now  whether  th«>  seals  were  in  them 
or  not.     I  see  there  was  an  inventory  of  other  things. 

Q. — Will  you  {(lease  state.  Captain  Warren,  from  whom 
you  received  that  lop  that  you  tctok  when  you  took  it  to  Ot- 
tawa? A. — Really,  I  am  not  positive,  but  I  rather  expect 
that  I  iH'rliaps  pot  it  fr<»ni  the  marshal  at  Sitka. 

Q. — Can  you  tell  me  when  yon  took  it  to  Ottawa?     \. — I 
do  not  rememlMM'  if  it  was  the  first  trip,  l)ut  I  think  it  was 
'O  the  second.. 

Q. — But  you  did  have  it?     A. — I  must  have  taken  it  there. 
Q. — You  don't  remember  the  fact  that  you  pot  it  at  Sitka? 
.V. — I  think  tlia.  is  the  way  I  must  have  pot  it.     I  do  not  re- 
uieml>er  any  otlier  way. 

Q. — You  went  up  to  Sitka,  did  not  you?  A. — In  the  sprinp 
»(f  1888,  and  if  I  remember  aripht  1  p«>t  the  lop  and  pot  the 
chronimu'ter.     I  rather  think  I  pot  a  s(>xtant. 

Q. — Anythinp  else?    A. — That  Is  all  I  remember  now. 
Q. — Were  you   fnMjnently  ;it   Sitka   in  these  years?     A. — 
No,  not  frequently. 

Q. — Had  y<»u  ever  been  at  Sitka  before  you  went  there  to 
m'e  about  these  pr»»p«'rtieH?     A. — I  had  Ix-en  there. 

Q. — Wlien?  A. — I  was  up  then*  in  18K8,  I  think;  the  win- 
t«'r  of  18«8. 

Q. — But  your  ordinarv  sealinp  business  did  not  take  y<»u 
to  Sitka  thi'n?     A.— \o' 

Q. — So  that  it  was  a  rather  exceptional  thinp  for  you  to  po 
to  Sitka  in   1888?     A.— Yes. 
40       (J. — Were  you  not  there  before  1888  and  after  the  seizure? 
A. — I  was  there  in  18<S8,  and  I  was  there  wht'u  I  was  w'izi-d 
in  1887. 

ti.— Weiv  you  there  in  188ti?  A.— I  do  not  think  it,  I  do 
not  rememlM'r  Ix'inp  theiv  in   188(>. 

y. — Will  you  swear  it?  A. — I  don't  know  us  I  would  like 
to  swear  positively,  but  I  really  don't  rememlMn*  beinp  up 
there. 

Q. — Is  yciur  memory  pn-tty  powl?  A. — I  don't  know  as  it 
is  anythinp  extra. 

♦i. — It  beinp  an  exceptional  thiiip  for  a  sei/.un'  to  occur, 
and  an  excejitional  thinp  for  you  to  po  to  Sitka,  cannot  you 
renu'mber  even  the  years  you  were  fhei-e?  \. — I  (inly  i-e- 
member  beinp  there  in  1887.  I  Wiis  tliere  in  188fi.  I  went  u|) 
there  for  lumlter  then,  and  in  1S87  under  tlie  seizure  1  was 
then>,  and  then  I  went  up  apain  in  1888. 

(i. — What  did  you  po  for?  \. — I  went  there  when  the 
vessel  was  seized. 

ii. — But   you   wert'  not   there   witii   the  exception   of  when 
60  .von  went  iMM-ause  you  were  seized?     .\. — I  think  that  is  all. 
(i.— In   18.S7?     A.— Yes. 
^i. — .\re  you  «|iiite  sure?     .V. —  I  must  be. 
t^. — .\fler  you  were  aclinp  pinerally  for  th.    seized  schoon- 
ers and  these  claimanlH.  did  you  po  to  Sitka?     A. — I  do  not 
think  it. 

Q. — Was  your  trip  tliei-e  in  18MS  not  after  you  were  nctlnp 
for  these  claimants?    .\. — That  is  after  1  was  actinp  in  Ot- 
tawa, voH  mean? 
50 


50 


iff 


1 1 
1 


I 


•::-m 


-1' 


%i 


!j 


ii* ' I 


V|ii: 


10 


930 

(J.  D.  WnrrvMi— Cr«t»B.) 

Q.— Yes,  yon  went  to  Hitka?    A.— Ye«. 

Q. — Now,  Ciiptnin  WnriH-n.  how  ninny  logK  did  yon  get  at 
Hjtka  Yon  were  n  little  doubtful  about  when  yon  t(K>k  the 
log  of  the  *'Thornton,"bHt  liow  many  Iorh  did  yon  get  fwnu 
the  oftlc^TH  of  the  eonrt  tliere?  A. — I  do  not  remember  get- 
ting any  but  the  one.  The  "Thornton"  was  ordewd  releawfl, 
and  that  Ih  the  reanon  I  underetood  they  were  given  to  mo, 

il. — Was  the  "Carolena"  i-eleawed?    A. — Yes. 

Q.— And  the  "Onward"?     A.— And  the  "Onward." 

Q. — And  they  had  b<'en  ordei-ed  r«»leased  when  you  were 
there?     A.— Yen. 

Q. — The  same  order  nn  In  tlie  cane  of  the  'Thornton"?  A. 
—1  do  not  remember  that  I  got  their  logs;  though  still  I 
would  not  like  to  say  I  did  not. 

Q- — ^Vell.  no.  of  eonrse.     What  other  lotrs  did  yon  get  that 

time?     You  would  not  Hwear  that  you  did  not  get  the  logs 

of  the  "Onw.inl"  and  the  "Paroleiia."  and  the  "Thoniton," 

20  would  you?    A.— I  wonld  not  like  to  Hwear  It.  but  I  do  not 

HMneniber  of  getting  them. 

O.— nid  yon  have  a  trunk  with  voii  at  that  time?  A.— .\t 
HItka? 

Q— Ves.  at  that  time,  in  18RS?  A.— I  Hn|)|MtHe  I  had  a 
valiHe. 

Q.— Did  yon  have  a  trunk?      A.— I  d<m't  think  It. 

Q.— IHd  you  box  up  anything  to  bring  nwnv  with  you?  A 
— "S'es.  f  expert  that  likelv  I  did  have  n  box"  for  the  guuH. 

Q.— Did  you  box   up  nouie  pa|M'r8?       A.— I  don't  think  I 
30   would  have  (o  box  up  minie  paiMTH. 

Q.— Did  you  have  it  done?  A.— I  had  Home  paperK  at  the 
time,  but  I  don't  remember  lioxing  any  there. 

(i.— PaiMM-H  that  y<»u  g«»t  there?  A.— Yes.  that  I  got  from 
the  court,  reeordH  of  the  courl. 

(i.— Now,  thiH  \h  a  rather  Imiiortant  thing,  (<»  get  the  logH 
<»f  (he  NhipH  that  had  been  Hei/.ed  by  the  I'nited  KtateH,  and 
eannot  you  remember  what  logs  you  got?  .\. — That  Ih  the 
<»nly  one  that  I  remember;  in  faci,  F  d«»  not  think  I  had  any- 
^Q  thing  to  do  with  the  other  vesHeN  there;  I  went  on  our  own 
business. 

<i. — Therefore,  when  you  went  («»  Ottawa,  all  the  reecu-ds 
that  you  obtained,  and  all  the  logs  that  you  obtain<Hl,  if  you 
obtained  any.  you  t«tok  witli  yon?  A. — Yes,  as  far  as  I 
know,  I  took  thtm  wKh  me. 

(J. — All  the  p>i|H'rs  with  reference  to  all  the  ships  that  were 
seized  «>r  warned?      A. — Wlien  I  went  to  Ottawa? 

Q.— Yes.  after  you  were  at  Sitka  in  ISSS?  A.— I  t<M»k  one 
log,  and  may  be  two,  but  I  am  not  sure  whether  I  had  two  or 
not  when  I  went  to  Ottawa  in  the  spring  of  \Hm\. 

(i. — Did  y<»u  (ake  all  the  jtapers  you  had  iveovered  at  Wilka 
with  reference  to  any  of  the  seizures,  when  you  went  to  Ot- 
tawa?     A. — I  do  not  think  it. 

Q. — 1  suppose  on  these  cases  where  you  repn'sentt'd  the 
claimants  at  Ottawa  you  were  pretty  well  informed  «»f  the 
nature  of  the  cases  before  you  nuide  the  statement  In  each 
case?      A. — All  these  claims  at  Ottawa? 

Q. — Yes,  of  the  facts,  and  the  amounts? 
I  had  to  get  It  from  oth<>r  memoraudnni. 

Ij. — Memorandum  made  up  from  what? 
nuide  up  from  invoices. 

(i. — And  from  statements  that  y«iu  had  got  from  Hitka? 
A. — No,  I  d<t  not  think  (hat  any  statemens  from  Hitka  would 
lune  anything  to  do  wi(h  that,  no,  sir,  in  1HS7. 

iy — t'aptain  Warp'n.  did  you  leave  recelp(s  for  this  log  that 
y«Mi  got?      .\. — For  I  he  log  1  got? 


50 


60 


A. — Oh,  the  most 
A. — Memorandum 


y3i 


}o 


(J.  I).  \VHrr«'ii — (^losH.) 

Q. — Y»*8.  A. — Wi'll,  I  woiihl  «'X|u'rt  lltnl  wliuU'vcr  I  got 
I  would  li'tivi'  I'cri'iptM  for  tli*>in;  I  woiiUl  likely  have  done  ho. 

Q. — IMd  you  leave  i-eceiptH  for  anything  el^e  ii|)  there  ex- 
cept the  \o\s'!  A. — The  lo(;  and  the  ehroiioineter  and  the 
sextant. 

Q. — And  tlM>  Hextant,  of  eourne?      A.— .\t  that  lime? 

Q. — Yett.      A. — I  may  poHHJlily.      I  know  I  had  a  gun. 
lO       Q. — You  knew  your  Hhip  wan  rehnmed  at  that  time?      A. — 
What  Hhip? 

Q. — The  "Thornton.  A. — VeH.  I  think  ho;  I  mant  have 
known  at  that  time. 

(J. — IMd  you  leave  reeeiptn  for  anything  elne  in  regard  to 
the  "Thornton"  exeept  her  log  and  lier  gun  and  the  Hextant 
and  the  chronometer?       A. — That  in  all  I  remember. 

Q. — Did  you  get  anything  «'Ib«'?      A.— I  cannot  Hay. 

Q. — And  yet  you  make  a  charge  agaiuHt  the  I'nited  RtntcH 
for  a  whole  lot  of  propi'rty.  and  yrn:  cannot  nay  whetlie:'  yon 
'O    had  it  hack  or  not?       A. — I  cannot  t«'ll  from  memory  just 
what  I  did  give  a  receipt  for. 

Q. — Mat  y«>u  got  whatever  you  gave  a  receipt  for,  didn't 
you?      A. — I  expect  I  did  get  whatever  I  gave  a  receipt  for. 

Q. — You  Haw  the  Thornton  on  the  beach  there  in  1SK7?  .\. 
— Ves. 

Q.— And  the  "Carolena"  and  the  "Onward"  with  her?  .\. 
— The  "Carolena"  wan  at  anchor  in  the  Htream. 

Q.— .\nd  the  "Thornton"  was  on  the  iM-ach?  .\.— The 
"Thornton"  was  on  the  beach. 

Q. — And  where  wan  the  "Onward?"'  A. — The  "Onward" 
wan  on  the  beach. 

Q. — .\nd  you  <-onHider  them  a  total  Iohh,  including  your  own 
"Thornron?"      .\. — Oh,  the  vj'SHeln'  could  have  been  fitted  up. 

Q. — You  kept  a  diary  at  the  time  you  were  there  at  Sitkji 
in  iHHT!     A.— Yen.  I  think  ho. 

Q. — Does  that  diary  contain  any  reference  to  tin*  condition 
of  the  Hhipn?      A. — I  can  soon  lottk  and  see. 

Q. — You  have  it  there?  A. — Yes,  and  I  tind  .:  reference 
40   here. 

Q  — That  statement  in  that  reference  was  nmde  at  the  time 
in  Sitka?      .\. — No,  this  was  down  in  Ounnlanka. 

Q — I  mean  at  Ounalanka.  >VaH  the  statement  that  you 
nmde  then*  correct,  then,  in  regard  to  the  ship?      .\. — Yes. 

(). — Can  1  see  that,  faptnin  ^Yal•ren?  .\. — Y«'H,  certain- 
ly. 

Q.— I  have  nof  the  right  to  see  it.      A.— 1  have  no  objection. 

Q. — Ts  there  i<nytliing  else  about  the  ships  th«'re?  A. — I 
think  that  is  all  tlier«^  is. 

Sir  ('.  H.  TupjH'r: — XYould  you  please  rend  It  out;  I  want  to 
bear  what  the  entry  is. 

Mr.  DickinHon: — Hir  t'harh'H  Tapper  requcHtH  it  to  be  read, 
and  thin  in  the  entry:  ".luly  the  lath,  18H7.  Took  a  look  at 
the  Hchooners  'O.  V.  Fowler.  S.  F."  (San  Franciwo;)  'rar«»- 
lena,'  'Onward,'  *.\nna  Meek,'  and  the  'Tlioriit«ui.'  Tin-  last 
1h  in  a  very  bad  state." 

By  Mr.  Dickinson: — Q. — There  is  nothing  I'lse  then>?  A, 
60   That  is  all  I  can  see. 

Q. — That  is  all  the  entries  I  care  to  htok  at  now.  raji- 
tain  \Yarivn,  don't  you  know  that  (he  "Thornlon"  in  Itehriiig 
Sea  transferred  a  portion  of  its  catcli  to  one  of  your  oth«>r 
vessels?       .\. — Not  to  my  knowledge. 

(J.— None  of  it?       A. -None  of  it. 

y._|)|,|  you  have  a  report  frimi  your  captain?  .\.— .\fter 
he  was  in  the  Sea? 

(J. — Yes.      A.— I  had  uo  repi»rt  until  after  the  seizure, 


Sc 


Ui 


m' 


H 


jipfi 


-hit 


lO 


20 


30 


932 

(J.  I).  Wjirivii — Crii88.) 

ii. — I>id  lu'  write  t«»  ^ou?      A. — Vi'h. 

g.— Wheif  is  hiH  li-ttiT?      A.— I  think  Hii-  Cliaili'8  Iiuh  it. 

y.^Is  tlu'iv  no  «>t)n'r  letter  tlitin  that?  A. — Whatever  1 
had  I  \!ii\i'  to  Sir  C'h<irlu8. 

Q. — <'aii  yon  lell  me  whether  tliere  were  an.v  other  h'tters 
fr«»ni  ('a|>tain  OuttorniHen?     A. — 1  do  not  think  ho. 

(i— Written  from  OnnalaHka?      A.— I  do  not  think  It. 

<i.— Wrltt«'n  from  Silka  or  Onnalnska?  A.— I  do  not  thiuk 
wo;  I  think  they  wer«'  both  from  Sitka.  I  think  there  are  two 
letters.  I  have  the  other  in  the  office,  likely.  I  showed  it 
to  Sir  ('harles,  what<'ver  then*  was. 

Q- — Ik  there  not  more  than  one?  .\. — There  were  two  let- 
ters. 

Q— Vou  had  yonr  report  of  4(W  seal  skins?      .\._Yes. 

Q-— At  the  time  of  the  seiznre  of  the  "Thornt(»n?"  A.— 
Yes;  if  it  is  in  that  book  yon  have;  th:it  is  hitt  r<'i»ort. 

Q.— \ow.  Paptain  Warren,  did  yon  not  know  that  the 
"Thornton"  jrot  more  seals  than  that  before  the  seiznre?  A. 
— I  do  not  know  of  any  more. 

ii. — I  eall  your  attention  to  he  Ior  of  the  captain  of  the 
"Thornton"  for  the  numth  of  .\<ipast.  IHHfi.  and  I  ask  yon  if 
it  appears  that  on  the  first  of  .\n>jnst  the  boats  returned  with 
;W  seals,  in  (he  handwriting  of  yonr  captain?  Is  that  rijjht? 
-V. — That  is  what  is  down  there. 

*i-— ^Vfll.  that  Is  in  the  captain's  handwriting.  Ihm't 
yon  know  the  liandwritin^  in  this  l(»<j  book  is  your  cap- 
tain's writinp?  Von  said  in  yonr  din-ct  examination  that 
you  did.  It  is  not  in  your  handwriting,  is  it?  A. — No,  it  is 
not  in  mine;  I  take  it  to  be  his  hand  writ  in);. 

<i- — The  bojit  returned  with  Xi  seals,  didn't  it?  A. — The 
entry  is  "the  boats  returned  with  X\  seals." 

Q. — Will  you  please  jiive  me  your  idea  of  the  entry  of  July 
the  first.  "I>olphin,  107  seals,"  at  the  foot  of  the  lo}»  entry  «»f 
July  the  first,  1SH6?  A.— I  suppose  that  Is  the  l(t7  seals  that 
I  rep(u-ted  I  had  on  board. 

Q. — That  you  rejiorted  to  lh«'  captain  «»f  the  "Thornton?" 
A. — Yes.  that  I  rejiorted  that  I  had  on  board;  1  told  him  I 
had  that  many  seals,  I  iM'lieve,  and  I  do  not  think  he  had 
one.      He  did  not  report  any  to  me. 

Q. — B>it  yon  were  not  In  Rehriuf;  Sen  at  the  time?  A. — Not 
on  the  first  of  .Inly.      We  went  in  on  the  second. 

Q. — You  undeistood  that  the  "Dolphin"  had  107  seals 
cuuf^ht  outside?      A. — Yes,  I  expect  that  is  It. 

Q. — .\nd  when  you  report  the  name  of  another  vessel  after 
the  word  "seals."  it  means  the  seals  that  the  other  vessels 
had?  .\. — I  siipposr*  tha*^  is  his  way  of  entering  it;  that  is 
the  only  way  T  could  account  for  It. 

Sir  C.  II.  Tapper: — Would  you  mind,  Mr.  Dickinson,  allow- 
injr  the  entry  ti»  go  in  in  full? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  have  no  objection.  It  is  as  follows: 
"Lowered  boat  and  wi-nt  on  board  the  schooner  "Dolphin." 
("Dolphin"  107  seals.) 

(My  .Mr.  Dickinson:)  Q. — Now  you  find  by  yonr  lojj  mark- 
ed No.  l(i  f<u-  identification,  that  the  catch  uf  seals  Is  down? 
60   .v.— 1  see  tluit  he  has  some  entries. 

Q. — From  day  to  day?  A. — Well,  I  have  never  examined 
it. 

Q. — Yon  have  never  fipared  it  to  see  whether  the  entries 
correspcmd?       A. — No,   I   don't  think  so. 

(i. —  Von  find  on  .July  21st  'MW  seals?  .\. — I  see  he  has  re- 
|)or(ed  here. 

i}. —  Is  that  tin  entry  similar  to  the  "Dolphin?"  A, — 
ghould  suppose  it  Is. 


40 


50 


on 

(.F.  I>.  Wam-n— CioHH— inviMHor^.) 

H.o!««|        Hu.  oHm.,-  ..x...|,tioii  Ih,  at  tin.  f,„,|  of  lh«>  lou    thf 

lo  witiM.HH.)      Q  — riHT..  \n  an  t'litp.v  of  July  17th  that  the 
,0   iMNitB  iv(iirm.<l  with  no  waiH;  is  tliat  ri^ht?  '  A —Yes 

Q.-I  would  liji,.  to  ask  .v.Mi.  Captain  Worvn.  rlKhthoie. 
f  th..r,.  «,•,.  oth.i-  ..ntrh'H  of  m-alH  tak.-n  fion^  ,!av  to  ,1a v.  in 

.  1<1.  i'»n  to    hoH,.  to  which  I  hav..  ,al .vour  attrition  in 

tliiK  lojr.'      A.— I  hav.'  not  jjon,-  throuRh  it  to  w.'. 

Q.— I  Hinipl.v  want  to  aHk  von  to  Riv,-  ni<'  a  p-ncial  anHwor: 
I  ,lon  t  want  to  go  into  detail.  A.-h  will  (ako  Honio  litth' 
tinu'  t(»  SCO. 

Q.-Xo,  It  will  not.      LiHt<>n  to  thi'  qncHtlon.      In  addition 

tn  tlM'w  to  which  I  H|.«.(in,all.v  raih-d  yonr  attention  in  the 

20    lo|r  hook,  air  tlicro  o(ln'r  cntclu'H  of  Hcaln  in  tht'  HohiinK  S,'a 

Kivi'n  from  day  to  da.v  in  tluK  loji  book  which  has  In-cn  niaik- 

«-d.  No.  ir».  for  identification?      A. — liuTc  arc  others. 

Q.— In  whose  writiuR  is  this  log  book  which  has  b«H>n  mark- 
ed 10  for  identitlcation?  Are  the  paRes  that  I  now  sIkiw  you. 
commencing  with  the  heading.  -Inveutory  of  Schooner 
"Thornton"— in  whose  handwriting  are  these  pajjes?  A.— 
I  take  it  to  be  in  the  handwriting  of  the  captain*' 

Q.— C'aplain  Guttormseii?      A. — Ves. 
-Q       Q. — It  appearK  to  !»»•  taken,  does  it  not,  after  the  entries  iu 
the  lojj  book  of  the  proctH'dings  in  the  court  of  Sitka  in  which 
he  was  a  party  with  the  "Thornton?"     A. — It  is  put  down 
later  <m  the  Ion  hook. 

(i. — At  the  "Mid  of  that  inventory  you  And  in  the  same  hand- 
writiu}?.  do  you  not:  "Se«'  in  remarks  fiu-  Auj;ust  7th?"  A. 
— I  Examining;.)      Yck.  sir. 

Q. — And  on  August  7th  you  find  an  (>ntry  in  the  log  in  this 

handwriting  of  the  names  of  the  crew  and  a  stntenunit  of  the 

nrticles  taken  from  the  schooner,  do  you  not,  together  with 

40   the  entry  of  the  captain's  protest  signed  by  him?      A. — Yes, 

sir. 

The  inventory  tiiid  extracts  from  the  log  are  as  follows: 
IXVEXTOKY  OF  S("H(H>XEK  "THOKXTOX." 

;{  Axes    

.'{  AiH'hoi's   

1  Augur 

__  1  Urace  and  bit   

'  1  Itroom  (ccu'ii)   

4  Ituckets  (deck)    

1  Hell  (ship)    

1  Mellows  ihand)   

li  Karometers 

1  Itinna<le   light    

2  MIocks.  (double)    

2  HI<N-ks  (single)    

4  Hoats  and  sails   

60  2  Files   

1  Flag   (Br.)    

1  Fog   1  lorn    

4  Fishing  lines    

2  Feeders  (?)  (oil)   

2  Fire  tools 

1  tSrindstone 

1  Olobe  lantern     

2  Oiiy  bosses  (?) 


f  c 


lit 


» 


;  i. 


934 


(Iiivt'iitory — <  'ontlniiod.) 


^3' 
Bit!"'  1 


lO 


||;t 


If 


20 


30 


iil 


40 


i  :i 


5f- 


It 


2 

8 

I 

3 
o 

8 
1 
I 

4 

o 

1 

2 
5 
.1 
10 
1 
1 
1 
2 

I 
1 
1 
1 
120 
1 

:{ 
a 
7 

10 
1 

12 
1 
1 
1 
1 

12 

20 

1 
2 

1 
1 

.1 
1 

o 

1 
1 
1 

40.1 
I 
.'{ 

Snils:— 


HatrlioH  (7)   

HainiiierM  

P«H»t  how  (riil»b»»r) 

.InRH,  water,  (Hton«>)  . . . . 

K«'tf l«'  (Iron)   

KiiivPH   

LaiiipH  (Hwiii|;iiiK)   

( JaBkH  (water)   

CiiitM*!  (wnod)    

<'liiHel  (coal)    

roiiipnHHeH  (boat)  

<'OIII|><;HM>H   (Htci'riiiK)    . . 

('lo«k 

TablcH  (fhain) 

CoalH,  ton    

(^liartM 

TanvaH,  ,vardH  

raiilkiiiK  iron   

Coffee  |»ot  (tin)   

Lantern  (deck)    

I^tidH  (lip) 

Het  lanternK  (wide) 

La.v  (?)  line  and  glaHHcs 

Lead  line  and  lead 

IJfe  biiov  and  line   .... 
n-et  Man'illn  (2^  in.)  ... 

Mallet  (Hwing)    

bblH.  nailN   

(^allonH  oil  (flHli)   

OallonH  oil  (eoal)   

pr.  oarn  (10  ft.)  

Palm    

I'addleH   

Plan.' 


Piini]»  (bilp>)   

Pitcher   

Feet  packing  (rubber) 

Pair  rowloekH   

Sacks  (?)  unit   

Tow    

StOVCK    

Stpiare   (carpentei)    .  . 

Hpike  (inarlini    

Shirt K  (calico)    

Shirt  (woollen)    

Shovels  (iron)    

Sci-ew    

Screwdrlv«'r   

Starting  bar 

Fur  Heal  Mkin» 

Hair  seal  skin  

Pujm'  seal  skin   


60 


I     I 


Main  sailo   , 

ForesailR 

Jib  

Flying  j<»b  , 

Slab  bucket   

Tanks  water)  .... 
Wach  (?)  «a<kle  . 

TarpulinH  

\\'renc)i  (monkey) 
Wrench  (large)   . . 


to 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


935 

(fiivi'iitni.)— «V,nfliimMl.) 

1  Kngin*'  iiihI  lM)il«>r 

1  Hinoke  Htaek 

4  Il«mt  tnckh'H 

Goinpl«>t<*  ninniii);  m'nr: — 

1  Pair  ovoi-IuiuIh  

2  PuiiiidM  t(ihM«-«-«»  

-'  Htovt'H   '.'.'.'."..['.'.'.'.['. 

5  HtixfH  bi«'jnl   '..'.... 

45(»  PoiindH  ficnir 

IfMt  I'oiiiidH  Ki(«. 

IW\  PoundH  mv^tw 

42  PiK-ka^eH  »«*a 

10  PoundH  eofft'e  

\   i>J|)p«'r    '.    ..........'.'.'.' *.\ 

1  Cai'vinjf  f«»rk 

2  Pa«-ka{r*>H  hopH  !'!!!!!!!! 

i  Tin   pepper    

2  Tins  lard 

1«  Kolls  hutti'r 

4  Spur  p«lo« 

»»  Pair  spurs  (iron) 

•i  Hooks  (iron)    .!.!!!. 

2  Hands  (iron,  for  mast  head)  . .    . . . . . . . . 

4  Klieets  pnierv  eloth   ... 

1  Har    ■ '.'.'.'.'.'.'..".'.'".'.'."." 

2  Range  (small)   .............. 

2  Spar  cans 

2  Hand  lamps 

1  Whittle .'.'.'.".".'.'."..'.".'.'.".* 

.'{  (Classes 

2  Pounds  ivd  lead 

2  Pounds  white  lead ............. 

6  Howls  eutting 

3  8.  8.  ranges 

Cau  >ing  tools  

1  I'ropeller   .'..'.'."!.'!!!.'!"' 

1  <  'ondens«*r 

4  Pumps .......] 

2  Tube  i-ods 

1  Gauge  Vaeeum 

1  Gauge  steam 

i  Coll  Manilla  (3  in.) 

1  Mincing  knife   . . ' ' 

1  Tube  blower 

2  Serapers  (steel)  [., , 

26  Empt.v  bags 

7  Hoat  masts 

1  Chronometer   

Arms  and  ammunition 

Size  of  main  mast  on  board  "Thornton":— 

Prom  deck  to  ti-essel  tiws  42  ft. 

Diameter  of  apartments .21  ins 

Diameter  of  tressel  tives    .  7  in.s 

Length   between   decks   '.     4  ft."  10  ins. 

Length  of  mast  h«'ad  0  ft. 

EXTRACTS  PROM  LOG  OP  "THORNTON." 
Aug.  7,  1886.— Fresh  breezes  and  cloudv  weath- 
er.     Still  located  in  Port  Tiloluk. 
At  0  a.m.  an  otticer  from  the  cutter  came  on 
board    and    took    some   provisions    from    the 
*"^''""»<*''   (as  mentioned  below) 


■ 


936 


;    il; 


ii 


90 


30 


•)0 


5C 


60 


To  Im'  Htnf  <o 
Hail  FniiK-im-o 
in  Hfoaini'r  Ht. 
I'liiil. 


For  ii»o  of  V.  fl. 
ill   trni.Hf»*ri1iiK 

pi-iHOIUTH  to 

Run    FiiinriHco. 


(Invcniorv— ConllniMMl.      .1.  I».  Warren — rrosa.) 
At  :t  |).in.  t«H>k  10  iiitMi.  nanuHl  aH  followH: — 

Fvfil  WIIImt.  liuntiT 
Ni'il  Morimtu,  linntt'r 
<i<>orK<'  W.  <M«'v*'lan«l.  linntor 
(]n>rK<>  .lolniHon,  liuiil«'r 
•loliii  l>»UKK*i"<  lioatpulltM* 
•lolin  IhilhiH.  iMial'iMillcr 
10  .lark  DoiiKhiH,  boat  puller 

Ham  Lawli'HH,  h4Nit  puller 
Will.  <'l<'vt'laii«l,  boatpnllcr 
Ti.v  Fail)?.  •••►«»k 

ArficleM  taken  from  tlie  neliooner: — 

KHI  llm.  Hour 

2ri  ll)H.  rire 

iSt)  llm.  lieaiiM 

lit  IbH.  «lrie«I  appU'it 

in  llm.  Hiipir 

2  boxeH  bieati 

4>  eupH 

10  kniv<t* 

15   H|MK>nH 

2  lar)r<'  tin  ptuiR,  1  tin  butter 
2  tin  kettleH,  1  <lip|M>r 
1  Miuee|Nin,  1  carving 
.t  Imkinif  pauH.  knife. 

Q. — The  otiier  letter,  if  .vou  have  it,  from  Oapt.  flnttonn- 
w'U.  wheiv  in  that?     A. — I  think  it  is  in  iiiy  office. 

Q. — How  niaiiy  othern  ai-e  then'?  A. — If  1  wiiiemlMT 
rijjht  theiv  was  onl.v  two  altop>ther. 

Q. — 1  want  vour  memory?    .\. — That  i8  all  1  think  there 
are. 
Q._l)i,l  ]|,.  only  write  you  two  lettei-H?     A. — I   think  only 

tw«>. 

Q. — Will  yon  proiluee  the  other?     .\. — I  will. 

(i — The  "Thornton"  was  t«»we«l  into  Itehrinp;  S«'a  by  the 
"Uolphin"?     A. — I  towed  lier  in. 

t^. — She  had  her  steam  iittin^fs,  «lid  she  not.  your  auxiliary 
tlitit  cost  fH.OIMi?     .\. — She  had  lier  sti-ain  power  there. 

(j. — Was  she  rebuilt  at  the  time  she  had  the  steam  auxil- 
iary put  in?     .\. — Hefoi-e  thtit. 

Q. — Was  there  anything  else  |Mit  in  with  her  steam  auxil- 
iiiry?  A. — Nothing:  ex<»'pi  putting;  in  new  stern  jnmts  and 
dead  wooiIh. 

t^. — In  order  t<»  fit  the  steam  auxiliary?     A. — Yes. 

(i.— That  made  a  very  fast  Imat.  did  it  not?  A.— I  don't 
know,  she  wiis  pretty  fast,  and  she  would  sail  better  without 
the  maehinery  in  her  I  su]>poHe. 

(2. — You  have  some  entry  of  this  cost  of  fll.OOO.  have  you 
not.  Captain  Warren?     A. — Yes. 

y.— Show  the  ccml  of  i^H.WW  for  that  sti-am  auxiliary?  A. 
— I  don't  know  whether  I  can  H«>|Ninite  the  account. 

Q. — How  much  was  the  |H»wer  of  that  steam  auxiliary? 
A. — Oh,  I  suppose  it  w^ould  drive  her  about — 

Q.— (Jive  U8  the  power  by  lioi-se  power?  A. — Oh.  I 
couldn't  tell  you  that. 

y. — You  couldn't  tell  the  horse  power  you  had  put  in  at 
this  cost  of  f;MMMI.  could  not  tell  the  amount  of  horse  power 
you  were  jjointj  to  jjive  the  "Thornton"?  A.— I  cannot  figure 
those  things. 


20 


30 


SO 


<)\7 

(J.  n.  Wiiiiin— riotMi.) 

Q. — And  «li«l  .voii  not  know  when  ,vou  bniiKlit  tlit*  «'UKii>i' 
wluit  hoi-w*  |K»w»'r  .von  wore  K*'(t'i>K?  '^- — ^'•'  •'"'  •'X'"'t 
lioi-w'  |H)w«'r,  I  (l<ni't  Uiink  I  <li«l. 

Q. — WIm'Mmt  i'Xiu-i  or  not,  did  yoii  r<Mn«'  n«'nr  It?  A. — 1 
«-Hl<Milat«Ml  to  di'iv<>  Ih'i-  alioiit  foiii-  knotH. 

<l. — IMd  yon  not  hn.v  it  l>.v  liorne  |m»w«'I'?    A. — N<». 

y. — WiiH  it  tinytliintt  nton-  tlnin  »  donki'.v  <>ni;ini',  Tnpt. 
lo  VVniTMi?    A. — W«'!l,  it  wan  a  Mniall  «>nKin«'. 

y. — WaK  it  one  liorw  |»ow»'r?     A. — Moiv  tlian  tliat. 

<i. — How  nnu'h?     A. —  I  roiildn't   Ha,v. 

(2. — Will  .von  Rive  »h  an  id«'a?  A. — I  cannot  IIk»p«'  hor«o 
IHiwcr  in  flKiin'H — I  liavc  w«>n  a  );«N)d  nian.v  «>nKini'<'i'H  that 
fouldu't. 

Q. — Yon  r«'niMl«'r<'d  Ihm',  did  .von  not?  A. — She  wnn  i-ojjIh- 
ti'iiHl  aftiM'  til*'  Ht«'ani  wan  pnt  in. 

Q.— Von  did  It?     A.— I  oxitcct  ho. 

Q. — And  tlu'  horw  power  .von  rcjilHtfrcd  was  jHHt  1.21?  A. 
— It  nia.v  Inivc  been. 

(2. — And  tlu'  h\7a'  of  tin-  cnKini*  ,von  rt'jriKtiTt'd.  tlio  dianiotfr 
of  tin*  »'.vlind«'r  (i^  inclicn;  Ih  that  rijrlit?    A.— Y«t<,  Hir. 

Q.— And  the  h'njjili  of  Htrokc  12  incli»'»?  A.— TliatV  rinlit. 
Itnt  a  liorw  |Mtwfr  tMit;in<<  is  r.ffordinfr  to  tli)>  preHHiirc  of 
steam  tlie.v  carr.v,  what  they  actnally  exert. 

Mr.  DiekhiHon: — Yon  stated.  Sir  Charles,  that  the  tonnage 
j-iven  by  as  as  agreed  on  innsl  be  a  mistake.  wh<>n  we  said  it 
was  22..'?n  witli  the  dediu-tions  for  stt'nni  fittings. 

Sir  ('.  H.  Tapiwr: — I  was  wronf;.  I  have  the  i»ap«»r  here. 

Mr.  I)iekins«»n: — The  exaet  tonnage  as  it'nistered  as  we 
agree,  to  remove  the  niisa])|)rehenslon.  is  as  folhtws:  I'artie- 
nlars  of  tonnage.  No.  of  tons,  2!(.r)7;  eabin  cover,  .t.22;  total. 
32.7!K  Dednctions  |M'r  contra.  10.49;  registered  tonnage, 
22..'M).     The  jter  (>4»ntra,  is  explained  by  the  steam  nnxiliary. 

Q. — Now  yon  fignred  this  vessel  as  worth  f<i.r>0()  as  she  was 
4°   when  seized?     A. — I  lignn'd  her  as  worth  i>(t.(M)0. 

(J. — Yon  pnt  luM-  into  the  tinn  of  Warren  &  Hoscowitz  in 
tlu'  s]>ring  of  ISSt!,  did  yon  not?  A. — 1  never  put  her  into 
the  fimi  of  Warren  &  Hosiowit/.  .vet  that  I  know  of. 

H. — Was  lioscowitz  interested  in  that  enterprise?  A. — He 
was  as  a  money  loaner. 

Q. — Were  .von  to  divide  the  profits  that  .vear?  A. — I  was 
to  let  him  have  all  the  seals  at  the  cost  of  every  expense  of 
getting  them. 

Q. — IHd  .von  have  a  written  agreement  with  Roscowitz? 
A. — I  had  letters  to  show — 

Q. — IMd  .von  have  a  written  agreement  with  him  in  18Sfi? 
A. — Myself,  no. 

Q. — IMd  .von  not  pat  in  the  schooner  against  his  wishes, 
for  outfitting  in  the  spring  of  ISSfi,  to  divide  the  profits  and 
losses,  share  and  share  alike?  A. — No,  we  got  tliem  from 
the  nsigneese  with  the  calculati<m  between  Roscowitz  and  I 
to  go  on  just  the  same  as  usual. 

Q. — IMd  .von  not,  in  that  arrangement  with  Ros«'owitz  put 
6o  the  "Thornton"  among  other  cimtribufions  of  .vours  in  at 
HWM>?     A.— As  to  her  value? 

Q.— Yes.     A.— No. 

Q. — And  did  you  not  afterwards  when  .von  made  a  settle- 
ment with  lioscowitz  in  October.  1.*<S({,  before  Boscowitz  left 
for  England,  figure  up  the  profits  for  the  year  and  find  the 
jirofitR  to  be  921. (M)l)  and  some  (>dd  dollars,  charge  back  the 
loss  of  the  '•Thornton"  and  her  valuation  including  the  entire 
outfitting  at  !|i4,tMM»?     A.— No. 


1 


■  i 


m 


'  %^, 


.1 1 


I 


93(1 

(•!.  n.  Wiirw'ii — f'rotw.) 

Q. — Aiitl  Htrikc  a  ImiIiiii«-«-  of  9I7,MUI  iiiid  <mI«I  tlollarH,  niid 
tlivUlt'  Im>I\v<m>ii  .voii  ilif  Hluirt'H  of  fS.INNt  mid  (mWI  iIoIIiii-h?  A. 
— Nil.  Till'  Ht«*uiiii'f  liiTwIf  wuH  not  in  it;  lit>  tool(  liin  outfit- 
tin^H  Itni-lt  frtini  Iut. 

ii. — 1M<I  lioHi-owitK  <-ontrilint(>  tlit>  ni«in<>,v  for  tin-  outtiltinK? 

A.— il«>  did.  till'  MKINt   of  it. 

H. — Did  itoHrowitx  |Niy  tlif  «'X|H*nH«>M  of  ,vonr  tri|m  to  Al- 
io iiHlia  and  to  Ottawa  wlifn  you  wi'nl  ii|i  on  tliin  liiiHim*HM?     A. 
— If  lu'  did  lu*  rliar);«-d  tliriii  to  iii<>. 

(i.— IMd  III'  pay  tln'  nion  y?  A.— Ih*  may  have  loaned  mo 
tli«'  moni'y. 

(^ — III'  advani-i*d  tlii'  inoni'y  to  you.  wliati  vit  it  may  Im> 
lallid?    A.— Vi'H 

y.— Kvi'iy  ii-nt,  did  lii'  not?    A.— I  don't  tliinl<  In*  did  all. 

iy — Now  you  nay  your  Hrliooiii>i-M  wi-ri'  all  litti'd  out  to  li'avi' 
tlii>  MINI  at  till'  I'lid  of  Hi'pti'inlii'r?     .\. — In  that  ni'lftliliorliood. 

ii. — Did  yoii  I'ViT  liiiow  a  Ni-aliiii;  v«'8hi'I  that  Htayi'd  in 
Iti-iiriiiK  ^<')>  i<>  llx'  *  I'd  of  Ki'iiti'inlii'i'  in  iIiohi'  yi'Ui'H?  A. — 
In  thi'iii  yi'ai-H  I  don't  think  I  do.  and  I  think  liki'ly  thi<ri>  wan 
vi*hhi'Ih  in  lii'fori' — 

(j.— Von  did  not  Ix'^in  to  I'liti'i-  Iti'lirinK  Hi'a  until  \Hm'>  A. 
— Till'  Vii-toi'ianH  did  not  aH  a  riili*. 

(j. — Can  you  ti-ll  iiii>  of  a  hIh^'Ii'  vi'hhi'I  that  ri'inainud  in 
Hi'hriii);  Si'ii  in  ISSti  or  ISS7  iih  latr  uh  t^cpti'inbi'r'/  .\.— I 
don't  know  aH  I  know  of  oni'. 

<i.— You  wi'ii-  flrHt  in  Hi-liriiiK  Hoa  in  ISWi?     A.— In  IHHO. 
30       Q- — Von  havi*  auHwi'i'i'd  to  rounHid  in  tlii'  dirort  oxaniinn- 
tioii  that  you  tttti'd  out  your  hIiIiih  tlu'  iHt  of  Si'pti'Uihi'r  for 
Iti'hrinK  hVu'?     A.— Yi'8.  hIi-. 

i}. — I>o  you  want  to  rorrci-t  your  ti'stimony?     A. — No. 

(j. — What  WUM  till*  iiHual  tinii'  f(U'  li'avin);  Itehriii^  Hea  of 
till'  wlioli'  of  till'  Hi'iilin^;  flci't*/  \. — Wt>  wi'ri»  romnu'ni'inK  at 
that  tiini',  I  inti'iidi'd  to  havi'  nloppi'd  in  until  tlii'  i>nd  of  Hep- 
ti'iiibi'r. 

(i. — Have  you  li'iirni'd  Hinri'  by  <    pcrii'nit'  that  thi'iv  \»  no 
Henlini;  to  b«»  had  after  the  2.'>th  .\r  ,UHt?    A. — Yi'h,  sir. 
40       y. — Any  Healinff  done  in  later  yearn  after  the  iHt  Heptem- 
ber?     A. — Yen.  I  think  there  Ih.     I  know  of  vi'hw'Ih  i;ettini; 
baek  pretty  well  to  the  end  of  October—the  2l»th. 

Q. — Did  they  Htop  and  Heal  on  the  roant?  A. — On  the  ronHt 
eoniinp  back? 

Q.— Yi'H.     A.— It  in  too  late. 

H. — Now  can  you  tell  nie  a  ninKle  ship  that  Iuih  ever,  from 
1HS«»  down  to  thin  hint  M'aliiif;  HeaHon.  both  incluHive.  Healed 
in  Mehrinvr  Hen  after  the  iKt  of  Kepteiiiber?     A. — No,  I  don't 
-Q    know  just  what  they  have  done. 

Q. — And  the  iiHiial  time  for  leaving  Itehrini;  Sea  In  l«Sfi, 
1S87  and  1M8S  waB  the  2(Mh  AuRUHt,  was  it  not?  A.— In  188f» 
and  1887  there  was  too  much  HeizureH  }!<>i"K  *'"  f<»i'  vi»HHelH  to 
stay  there. 

ti- — Now  we  will  come  back  to  the  Heiziiren.  You  did  not 
seem  very  much  afraid,  your  whole  lleet  wan  in  UKain  in 
1887?    A. — I  did  not  expect  they  would  Heize  again. 

Q.— AVhat  time  did  you  pet  out  in  188fi?     .\.— I  came  out 
niyflelf  on  the  I2lli  Aui;unt. 
60       Q.— AVhen  did  the  rest  of  vour  fleet  come  out?     .\.— I  think 
n  little  later. 

Q.— They  stayed  until  the  2(»tli.  did  they  not?  A.— They 
may  have.  Home  of  them.  |H'rliapH. 

Q.— All  of  them  with  the  exception  of  the  "Dolphin"?  A. 
— I  tlioii}rlit  I  had  a  memorandum  here  Homewhere. 

Q. — You  cannot  iinnwer  now?  A. — (Keferrinn  to  memor- 
andum).    The  'tJrace  left  the  Hea  about  the  ITith     and     the 


1  : 


«39 


1 


lo 


30 


(.1.  I».  WaiTfii — <'roHH./ 

"Anna  n«-«-k"  iiImhiI  :Iu>  liMli;  that  Ih  alKinl  »h  near  nn  I  nin 
ltKiir«>  it  111). 

li. — Till'    "Ha.vwanI"?    A.— I     iloii't  know  wliiit  tiiiic  »iIm' 
l«*ft;  hIh>  n»t  luMiM'  lit'i'i*  till*  i:ttli  of  H«'pt«'nilH'r. 

(j. — IMil  you  liavf  aii.v  on*'  to  kii'p  an  a<  roiiiit  tit  voiir  trail 
in^  HtationH  of  what  wiih  put  on  lioaiil  lh«>  HhipH?     A. — Vi>m, 
thi*,v  are  mupimiwhI   to,  to  wmiiI  thi>  an-oiint   in   to  tlii'  ImmiiI 
ofll«-(>  at  Victoria. 

U. — And  whati'viT  wiih  pnt  on  tho  hi'Iioouith  you  liail  HUt-li 
an  an-oiint?      A. — Hu]»pom*i]  to. 
Q. — And  then  tninafi'r  it  to  your  bookH  hi-ro?    A. — Ych,  nir. 
Q. — Your  liookH  hIiow  nn  aroiint  of  your  trading  HtationH  of 
roiirw?     A. — Vt'H,  nir. 

Q.— Thi'  IndiauH  furniHiiod  tlicir  own  ini'atH  did  tlicy?  A. 
— In  liidiring  Sea  that  ywir? 

Q-— Yi'H.      A.— I  don't  tliink  we  furuiHlit'd  tlu'Ui  any  meat. 
Q-— VVIiiit  did  you  k\\v  tin.'  IndiauH  from  your  ntort's?  A.— 
20   I  K<iv<>  tlM>  IndiauH,  t>acli  man,  four  him-iiitH  a  day 

Q.— Four  i-akcH  of  pilot  bri'ad?  A.— Xo,  four  bis  nitB. 
Q.— That  in  pilot  liri'iid?  A.— Yph,  tlii"  piiot  brcatl.  iiid  I 
Kavo  tlii'm — w»'ll  I  don't  r<Miu*nibi>r  how  iinu'li  Hiiniif;  1  jtavc 
tlu'iu  an  allowane<>  of  HUKur,  rice  once  a  wwk.  '<"anB  once  a 
w«'«'k— well  tea  and  cotTi-i',  I  tliink  I  iihimI  to  p '  •  them  Home 
every  day,  a  certain  amount. 

Q.— IHd  they  buy  any  HtutT  of  yon?  A.— If  they  wanted 
n...  ■  .-.tru  they  bought,  I  gave  them  a  certain  anmuiit  and 
they  bought  the  balance. 

Q. — What  did  you  give  them  thnt  you  did  not  make  them 
pay  for?  A. — Tliat  wiih  what  I  wiih  mentioning,  four  bin- 
cults  a  day  a  man,  a  certain  amount  of  BiiRar,  I  don't  remem- 
ber now  what  it  was. 

Q. — Every  man  a  day  some  suKiir?  A. — Every  man;  I  al- 
lowed them  a  certain  amount  of  Hu^ar  for  a  lot,  for  tea  and 
colTee — ho  much  ten  and  ho  much  coffee,  then  I  allowed  them 
one  feed  of  rici*  a  week  and  one  feed  (»f  beans. 

fj.— And  for  (he  rent?     A.— .\h  near  :ih   I   can  remember 
40   what  they  did  not  have  they  Itou^lit. 

Q. — They  had  their  ov.ii  HupplicH  of  linh  and  seal  meat? 
A  — Fish  and  seal  meat. 

Q. — I  am  Rolng  to  ask  you,  man  by  man.  or  if  any  lutve  the 
same  lay  jnittin);  them  all  in  together  ho  as  not  to  take  nitace. 
the  lay  of  every  man  on  the  "Thornton"  f<»r  1S><6?  A. — 
En«h  of  the  hunters  was  ^il.BO  for  each  skin. 

Q.— And  how  many  hunteiH  at  fl.50  per  nkin?  A.— Four 
hunters,  that  is  fLStt  per  each  skin  they  brinplnR  their  own 
boat. 

Q.— And  did  they  bring  their  own  boats?  A.— >Mint  they 
caught  tlieiiiHelvcHeach  liiinter  would  get  fl.St)  a  nkin. 

Q— I  am  talking  of  not  what  they  wonld  get  but  what  the 
arrangement  was  for  ISHti?  A.— That  is  the  arrangement  for 
188«.  There  waB  five  of  the  boat  pullers  I  see  are  signed  at 
30  cents  each.       (Heferring  to  log.) 

Q  —  Vnything  in  the  lav?  A.— 50  cents  a  skm;  there  are 
three  boat  pullers  not  in,  ihat  I  see;  they  are  very  likely  on 

pav. 

Q._How  many  boat  pullers  had  50  cents  a  lay.' 
Q.— And  what  are  the  others?      A.— I  don't  f,i'e 

ment  here  (referring  to  log.) 

Q._Have  vou  not  had  an  accounting  with  them?      A.— 

There  ban  been  an  ai'counting.  but  from  memory  1  could  not 

gay.      1  expect,  very  likely,  being  Indians,  they  were  paid  by 

the  month.  .,,,„,      »       1 

Q._The  other  three?      A.— Yes.  1  think,  likely,  I  only  si-e 

five  signed  here. 


50 


60 


A.— Five. 
I  don't  M'e  Mieir  agree- 


!! 


m 


f-  i 


i 


I  ' 


OiO 


tv; 


"■m 


\  'k 


I. 


h  i:  ■ 


A. 


30 


(.T.  n.  Warn-n— Cnttw.) 

Tlu'  ConiiniHHioiior  on  tho  imit  of  tlio  liiitcd  Ktates— Did 
Dallas  siyn?      A. — \t'». 

Q.— Yoii  are  not  positive'  that  the  ivniainhiK  tlnvf  liati  n<» 
la.v  an-  you,  Capt.  VVaiion?  A.— No,  I  niu  not  nositivt'.  I 
am  nnd(>r  the  impiVHsion 

Q.— If  there  is  any  donbt  about  it,  Capt.  Warren,  I  wish  vou 
,0  would  supply  it  when  you  bring  that  letter.  If  there  is  any 
lay  for  the  otlurs  not  named  will  you  please  h-t  us  know? 
A . — Yes. 

Q.— The  eaptain,  you  said,  had  no  lav,  and  the  mate? 
—1  think  the  captain  had  a  lay. 

Q— ^Vell,  h't  us  have  that,  it  is  important  that  we  should 
have  the  lay  aciurafely.  A.— Hut  I  doni  think  the  mate 
had  any  lay. 

Q.— Had  you  not  a  setUement  with  them?      A.— Dh,  yes. 

Q-— You  can  give  ns  the  facts  can  you     not?       A.— The 
20  hooks  will  show.  I  suppose. 

Q.— Can  you  not  give  us  the  facts,  Capt.  Warren,  about 
this  lay?      A.— I  think  likely  I  can  got  it  from  the  book. 

Q- — You  kn<'w  it  was  aroing  to  be  imjtortant  and  niateriiil? 
A. — Tt  is  all  made  up  into  the  cofst. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  wish  y«»u  to  pive  us  tlu'  lay  of  th«'8e  men. 
the  cai»tain  and  everybody  else,  in  such  shape  Ihat  you  ari' 
willing  to  swear  to  it,  you  nre  the  owner  of  the  ship.  We 
ought  to  have  this. 

Q. — You  have  had  some  litigation  with  Mr.  Iloscowitz?  A. 
— Yes. 

Q. — And  your  wife  has  had  .some?  A. — She  has  had  some 
little,  yes. 

Q. — And  Mr.  r'oo]>er  has  been  a  party  with  you  to  those  liti- 
gations. Thomas  Cooper,  of  San  Francisco?  A. — Yes,  he  has 
been  a  party  in  it  nominally. 

Q. — Will  you  please  tell  us  what  Mr.  Cooper's  interest  in 
these  vessels  was?  A. — His  interest  was  merely  holding 
for  me. 

Q. — He  is  an  American  citizen,  is  he  not?     A. — No. 

Q. — Liv«'8  in  San  Francisco?     A. — Lives  in  San  Francisco. 

Q. — How  did  he  derive  title?  A. — Did  you  give  a  bill  of 
sale?  A. — Well,  we  put  the  vessels  up  at  auction  and  I  bid 
them  in  in  his  name. 

H. — And  for  what  consideration  did  \w  take  them?  A. — 
Two  of  them  |lfi,0(tO  each,  half  of  one  f2..5()(>. 

Q. — You  d(»  not  mean  to  say  at  the  auction  that  he  or  you 
paid  anv  such  money?     A. — He  did  noi  pass  anv  monev. 

Q.— Did  you?     A.— No. 

Q. — ^^Put  them  up  at  auction  and  tliey  mU\  for  fl.OO,  did 
they  not?  A. — No,  they  sold  for  the  amounts,  I  bid  them  in 
at  the  amounts  I  stated. 

Q. — How  did  you  get  at  those?  A. — Well,  the  amounts 
that  they  bid  them  in  at  and  what  (hey  went  in  is  named  at  — 

Q. — He  paid  nothing?      A. — No. 

Q. — You  ])aid  nothing?      .\. — Not  at  that  time,  no. 

(i. — Wlio  put  them  up?  A.— They  were  put  up  under  Mr. 
lioscowit//  mortgages. 

Q. — S«»it  of  friendly  arrangt>nu>nt  between  you  and  Mr. 
Ttoscowitz?  A. — It  was  to  get  control  of  the  vessels  in  my 
name  without  having  to  go  to  the  assignee,  so  I  c()uld  control 
them  and  take  them  out  of  the  liands  of  the  assignee. 

Q. — It  was  a  friendly  arrangement  between  you  and  Btis- 
cowitz?       A. — Yes. 

Q. — How  long  has  Cooper  lived  in  San  Francisco?  A. — 
Well,  hf  has  lived  then*  a  number  of  vears. 


40 


SO 


60 


m 


94  < 


{ 


f  1 


(.1.  1).  Wam'ii — l'n»88.) 

Q.— He  liiiH  llv«'(l  tlu'iv  iilMMit  '2't  yvuvH.  Iuih  he  not?  A. — I 
think  likt>l,v. 

(J. — And  (ViojMT  \H  tlic  niiin  in  wh«»He  behalf  yon  preHented 
tliem'  eliiiniH?  A. — Yet*,  he  waH  the  ivgiHtennl  owner,  I  pnt 
tlieni  in  his  name. 

Sir  i\  H.  Tapper: — Von  wiy  Ihene  t-lainis — tills  was  not  put 
up  that  ypiir. 
lO  U. — The  litipitiouH  covered  the  "Thornton,"  as  well  an  the 
otiier.  did  tlnv  not?  A. — Well.  I  diui't  know  whether  they 
would  cover  ti.e  "Thornton."  Mr.  ItoHcowitz  took  all  of  IiIh 
money  that  he  advanced — 

Q. — We  will  not  p>  into  the  ItoHcowitz  law  Huit,  exc<'pt  80 
far  aH  it  bears  on  the  "Thornton."  Xow.  you  teHtifled  in 
those  caset*.  did  you  not?     A. — Yen. 

Q. — And  you  teHtifled  about  the  d(»in};H  of  the  ''Thornton," 
her  <-<mnecti<Mi  with  your  biiHineHft  and  Hot*c<»witz,  did  you 
not?  A. —  I  don't  just  remember. 
20  (^. — Ytni  testitied  in  the  case  of  Warwu  v.  ]t«mcowitz  in  the 
Suprenu'  <'«>urt  »»f  ItritiHli  Columbia,  did  you  not?  A. — I  ex- 
pect HO. 

H. — I>id  you  tcHtify  in  that  matter  as  follown;  I  hold  in  my 
hand  a  copy  of  tlu»  leHtimony  of  Warren  v.  Itom-owitz.  "t^. — 
It  in  the  fact  that  all  the  Hchoonern  were  Hei/.«>d  by  the 
I'nited  States  tioveiniment  in  the  year  IMS"?  A. — Thei-e  wan 
one  wized  in  ISSCt;  there  w<'re  four  nmiv  in  1HS7." 
Wiln«'HH: — YeH.  I  expect  so. 

y. — IHd  y«ui.  in  that  ctmnection.  state  to  thin  iiuestion: 
J°       "(J. — And   the  'one'  you    referred  to  was  the    'Tliornt«»n,' 
was  it  not?     .\.— The  'Thornlcm." 

ii. — IMd  you.  in  that  connection,  state  t(»  this  <|ueMtion: 
"Q. — You  say  you  pave  instructions  for  the  defence.  I  shall 
read  you  Cooper's  defenci'  to  Mr.  Hoscowitz'  claim.  You  are 
aware  of  the  fat)  thai  Mr.  Koscowitz  has  eominenced  litipa- 
tion  in  order  t;>  ^et  his  claim,  or  a  portion  «>f  it,  in  his  own 
name?     A. — I  have  heard  scunethinji  about  it." 

40       Witness; — What  is  this  from? 

Mr.  I>ickins(Ui: — This  is  from  th»'  case  of  Warren  v.  Hos- 
cowitz. 

Witness:— Is  it  from  tlie  shorthand  taker    or     from     the 
judjje's  notes? 

Mr.     1M<-kinson: — The     stenographic  minut<'S  of  the  testi- 
mony in  o|M>n  <ourl. 

50       Witness: — I  think  the  shorthand  man's  statement  is  toler- 
ably cornet. 

ii. — To  (ids  (piestion  did  you  retuni  an  answer  which  I  will 
readtoyo'i:  "(i. — Well,  you  know  munething  alH>ut  it.  The 
contention  on  your  part,  and  what  has  been  admitted,  is  that 
tli*>  claim  iH'iongs,  or  any  ])roflts  to  be  made  out  of  this  claim 
belong  luilf  to  you  and  half  to  Mr.  Boscowitz?  A. — The 
proflts.  after  all  exjienses  and  every  other  person  has  b«'eu 
Itaid."  A. — Yes. 
60  "(i.— Half  to  y-.u  :iiid  half  to  Mr.  Koscowitz?  A.— That  is 
my  contention."      A.— Yes,  I  ex|,ect  that's  right. 

(^._And   Mr.  Hoscowitz  did  claim  half  the  jiroflts  in  ids 
own  nanu'.  did  lie  not?     .\.— From  the  g<»veniment? 

ti.— Half  the  protits  <tf  the  sealing  season  of  ISHfi?     A. — 
1  «'Xpecl   .Mr.  Hoscowilz  expected  to  get  half  (he  proflts. 

(2._X„w.  you  <lid  have  a  settlenient  with  HoscowUa  in  Oc- 
tober, 1«S»}?'    A.— Yes. 


If; 


I'li: 


■'fif 


30 


942 

(J.  D.  Warren — Oi'ubh.) 

Q. — Did  .voii  t»'8lif,v  ah  folhtwH  in  lh«'  «aw  of  Warini  v. 
Hoscowitz,  uii  cxaiuinatioii  of  Mr.  Davie,  referring;  to  tlic 
bii8iiu>88  of  IHHii:  "(i. — ,lu8l  loi>ii  at  lliiN  atroiiut  and  we  if 
lliat  i8  an  aecurate  aceonnt  of  the  »ealiui;  business?  A. — Mr. 
Itales  Iiad  the  aecoiint,  and  he  Ha.vs  it  is  a  eorreet  eop.y  as  per 
))oolis,  I  don't  ixnow,  I  snp|K>S4>  i)  is.  Q. — Yon  niijilit  tell  nie 
iliis  before  I  sit  down.  This  acctMint  'Iv'  siiows  the  balanee 
10  of  I»«ottt  to  be  |2lM4(».L'0.  How  is  that  reduced  to  #17.tMMI? 
You  eau  jUst  jjive  us  that  by  llie  boolis.  A. — There  was  a 
loss  on  the  "Thornton"  of  |4,(HH.48,  tlnit  is  the  "Thornton" 
sailed  ft)r  Hehilnn  Sea  and  never  return<Hl."  Did  you  so  tes- 
tify? A. — Yes,  that  is,  with  reference  to  the  outfit,  not  the 
"Thornton"  herself. 

(). — That  is  your  explanation,  is  it?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — "And  what  were  those  other  amounts  charged  against? 
A. — Those  are  the  profits  of  the  different  schooners.      This  is 
the  aggreg:!te  here."      That  was  your  answer,  was  it?     A. — 
20   Yes. 

Q. — "And  that  is  the  way  that  is  reduced,  by  the  loss  of 
the  'Thornton?'  A. — Hy  the  loss  of  the  'Thornton'  in  not  re- 
turning. Q.— That  reduced  it  to  #17,!)8(>.0r.?  A.— To  fl7,- 
»S(».nr).  of  course." 

Q. — Now,  having  refreshed  your  memory  by  your  testi- 
mony, is  it  tru«>  that  you  and  Boscowit/,  came  to  an  account- 
ing in  0«tober.  188(5.  for  the  season  of  188(5?      A.— Yes. 

Q. — Is  it  true  that  the  profits  for  the  season  for  all  the 
schooners,  including  the  ''Thornton."  were  estimated  at  f22,- 
Hn.20?       A.— Xo. 

q._Ik  it  tru-  that  without  deducting  anything  for  the 
"Thornton"  the  profits  of  the  fleet  were  estimated,  including 
the  "Thornton"  at  |!22,1 40.20?  A.— Xo.  the  profits  taken 
into  consideration  at  that  time  was  not  the  vessels  at  all;  it 
was  the  proceeds  of  the  sealing  outfit,  the  value  of  the  ves- 
sels was  n()t  talven  in  at  all. 

Q._\Vere  the  jiroflls  without  any  deduction  |22,1 40.20?  A. 
The  profits  on  tiie  other  vessels  would  have  been  that  amount 
'^^    leaving  the  "Thornton"  out  altogether. 

(J.— Then,  to  n'duce  the  amount  to  f  17.!)80.0ri  you  had  to  de- 
dmt  the  "Thornton?"  A.— \ot  th«'  "Tlunnton."  that  is  her 
outfit. 

Q._Yon  had  to  dt'diict  ^4.001.48  on  acctmnt  of  the  "Thorn- 
ton? A.— (In  account  of  the  "Tiiornton"  it  was  all  outfit, 
there  was  no  vessel  in  that  at  all.  the  value  of  no  vessel. 

Q._ll„„,.owit/,  i)aid  the  (Mitfit,  did  he  not?       A.— He  paid 
the  outfit  and  he  deducted  his  nnmey  out  of  it,  I  believe,  I 
S^   advanced  some  of  the  money  towards  the  outfit,  but  he  paid 
the  [»rincipnl. 

(i.— Hut  vou  stated  on  the  h«'aring  in  the  Supreme  Court 
of  Ibitish  f'olumbia.  (liat  the  reduction  was  made  from  |22,- 
140.20  by  the  loss  of  the  "Tiiornton"  in  not  returning,  that  is 
what  you  stated?     A.— Certainly  it  was  thnnigh  that. 

Q_^Xow.  then,  after  deducting  on  account  of  tlie  "Thorn- 
ton" v<mr  total  profits  were  »17,!)80.»5,  that  is  right,  is  it? 
A.— Yes. 
60  (^.—And  that  y<)U  divided  by  two.  |8.f«)0.47  for  yourself 
and  f;S.!)1»0.47  for  lloscowitz,  is  that  right?  A.— Yes,  that  is 
right. 

.Mr.  Peters:— Mr.  Spring  1ms  done  the  best  lie  could  to  make 
out  a  statement  siiowiiig  the  cost  jier  iinin.  He  finds  it  a  puz- 
zling thing  to  do  without  being  able  to  refer  to  the  books  on 
the  coast,  which  he  has  not  at  hand,  and  anything  from  him 
would  be  guess  wiu-k,  that  In-  could  not  state  on  oath,  in  fact 


■•^« 


943 


(J.  D.  Wanvn — Cross.) 

he  never  has  made  up  one,  nnd  he  flnds  he  cannot  make  up  oHe 
mitiHfactory  to  himtielf,  therefore  it  would  not  be  Hutisfac- 
tory  to  the  court.      Thi8  he  regrets  very  much. 

At  1  p.m.  the  ('(UiiniisMioners  took  recess. 


10 


30 


40 


50 


60 


At  U:.'lO  p.m.  the  Commissioners  resumed  their  seats.  Cross- 
examinaticm  of  Captain  Warren  continued  by  Mr.  Dickinson: 

Q. — Are  you  prepared  to  complete  your  testimony  as  to  the 
hiy  of  the  men  on  the  "Thornton?"  A. — I  have  searched  the 
books  and  excepting  two  Indians  getting  f25  a  month  each, 
I  had  receipts  payments  made  to  the  other  men,  but  they 
don't  state  how  the  terms  was  made  up. 

ii- — Tliey  did  have  a  hiy,  t!ie  otlier  men?  A. — I  think  tlie 
otiiers.  as  far  as  I  know.  Tliere  Is  one  man  I  cannot  find,  it 
doesn't  say  who  tliey  are,  or  liow  they  are  made  up. 

Q. — You  mean  as  to  the  five  men  you  testified  about  this 
morning  at  a  5fl  cent  hiy?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — There  are  two  Indians  at  |12.'»  a  month  who  had  no  lay, 
then  the  absent  man?    A. — The  absent  man  I  can't  find. 

Q. — Xor  the  captain?  A. — The  captain.  There  is  a  re- 
f-eipt  there  for  |iaynifnt,  but  I  am  quite  satisfied  in  my  own 
mind  h«'  was  getting  ifod  and  a  lay  of  12  1-2  cents. 

(2. — The  mate?  A. — The  mate  was  f40  a  montli  as  near  as 
my  rt-eord  sliows  without  a  lay. 

Q. — Anybody  else  on  the  shij*  that  had  a  lay?  A. — Not 
exce|)ting  that  odd  man,  lie  may  have  had. 

Q. — Not  to  ex<*eed  50  cents,  I  sup))OS(>?  A. — Xo,  it  wouldn't 
exceed  that  I  sluuildn't  suppose.  Th«>  captain's  lay  would 
be  on  the  whole  eatch. 

(J. — And  the  men's  lay?  A. — On  the  catches  of  their  own 
boat. 

Q. — It  would  average  .50  cents  a  skin?  A. — It  would  make 
r»0  cents  a  skin  for  »-aeh  man;  that  would  be  a  dollar  a  skin 
and  a  dollar  and  a  half  would  be  two  and  a  half,  it  would 
be  about  two  dollar.^  and  a  half  a  skin,  nnd  then  the  captain's 
lav  of  15}  1-2  cents  more. 

(J.— In  the  season  of  IM^fi  you  were  in  the  hands,  I  think, 
of  an  assigniM'?      A. — Yes. 

Q.— And  did  Iloscowitz  <liarter  the  "Thornton"  from  your 
assignee  that  year?  A.— Yes,  he  went  through  the  form  of 
(hartering. 

Q._At  1200  .1  mouth?       .\.— It  varied. 

(}.— Was  your  assignee  a  Mr.  GrifflthV      A.— Yes. 

Q. — The  title  has  never  been  taken  out  of  your  assignee.  I 
B„ppos«-- of  the  "Thornton?"      A.— No,  I  suppose  not. 

(j._Vour  affairs  were  never  settled  so  far  as  the  ussign- 
ment  is  eoneerned?      A. — No. 

Q._I  ;,in  going  to  call  your  attention  to  the  case  of  Boscow- 
ilz  against  Warren  in  the  Supreme  Court  of  British  Colum- 
bia, the  testimony  of  .1.  1).  Warren,  page  .11,  question  40(>,  by 
Mr.  Taylor;  and  I  ask  you  if  you  testified  in  accordan<e  with 
what  1  now  read  you."  "What  was  the  irrinigement  be- 
tween you  and  Mr.'Uoscowitz  regarding  this  sealing  venture? 
A.— My  arrangement  was  that  I  was  to  put  in  the  bare 
schoon'i'rs,  and  he  was  to  furnish  all  otitlays  in  every  shape. 
The  charter  was  put  in  to  show  that  he  was  not  the  owner  of 
the  vessel,  in  east'  that  the  law  would  take  hold  of  us.  to  show 
the  vessel  still  belonged  to  me,  he  not  being  n  British  sub- 
ject. Therefore  I  was  allowed  so  much  a  mouth  for  the  vessela 


^:t|l 


ti! 


I 


mil 


mf 


W 

[;1.: 


11^' 


30 


lnjii 


|3  ■ 

m 

Id' 


944 
^J.  D.  Warivu — Oro»8.) 

tipiiiiHt  all  oHlla^H,  ivpairH,  Hails,  and  utlitu-  things,  iusurauce 
on  tilt'  IuiIIh  which  were  to  bt*  rcturued  to  mv.  Whi'U  the 
v«'»s«'l8  canu'  back  with  the  seals  he  was  to  get  that  from 
the  proceeds.  I  was  t«»  get.  in  lieu  of  it,  so  much  a  month 
for  the  exjMMist's."      Is  that  correct?      A. — That  is  correct. 

ii- — Was  that  true,  that  testinion.v  as  given  there?  A.— 
Yes,  I  guess  that  is  tru«'. 
10  *i- — I  ""w  call  .your  attention  to  the  record  on  the  appeal 
to  the  Full  Court,  the  Supreme  Court  of  Hritish  Columbia, 
the  suit  between  Iltinnah  Warren,  plaintitf.  and  Jo- 
seph Itoscowitx  and  Thomas  Henry  C(M)per,  defendants, 
by  an  original  action,  and  between  Joseph  Boscowitz,  plain- 
tiff, and  the  said  Hannah  Warren  and  Thomas  Henry  Cooper, 
and  James  Douglas  Warren.  Thomas  H.  Tye.  Sfattliew  T. 
Johnston,  and  Arthur  L.  Helyea,  as  defendants  by  counter 
claim.  Have  you  seen  this  printed  record.  A. — I  don't 
know  whether  I  have  (tr  not.  I  suppose  T  have  seen  the  ac- 
20   (ounts  of  tlu!  proceedings — oh.  the  printed,  yes.  1  think  I  have. 

Q. — I  call  your  attention  to  the  printed  pr<M'«'eding8  in  t)ii8 
case,  the  examination  of  James  1>.  Warren  in  chief  by  Mr. 
l{ely«>"a.  and  ask  if  you  (estified  as  follows  in  that  case  on  De- 
cember i:Uli.  ISOO: — ".»;U.  Q. — l  want  you  to  state,  as  nearly 
as  you  can.  wint  tlu'  cost  of  those  vessels  was.  A. — The 
cost  of  running  (hem?  'X\'2.  Q. — No,  the  vessels?  A. — Well, 
I  ,  it  the  "Thornton."  I  think,  at  |!4.0(l(>.  that  is  the  time  she 
had  her  machinery  put  into  her.  and  was  made  a  steamer  of." 
Did  you  so  testify?  A.— Yes.  I  expect  so.  I  don't  know 
whether  that  is  exactly  tin*  way  1  put  it  or  not. 

y.— Have  you  any  doubt  about  it,  that  is  the  printed  r<'- 
cord  in  this  ajtpeal  prepared  by  your  counsel?  A. — If  it  is 
j.ut  in  the  value  of  the  vessel.  1  doUbt  it.  I  think  I  was 
]Mitting  it  in  as  value  for  him  as  security. 

(^. — I  jisk  you  whether  you  so  testified  on  December  1.1th, 
1M!K).  in  that  causi".  just  as  I  have  read  it  to  you?  A.— (Ex- 
amining). I  don't  recttllect  of  making  that  statement  to  say 
that  the  "Tliornlon"  was  valued  at  f-l.ftOO  for  she  certainly 
cost  me  more  money  than  that  considerable. 

Q. — But  you  find  in  that  connection,  do  you  not,  following 
the  testimony  I  have  read  to  you  that  you  proceeded  to  give, 
not  the  mortgag«'s  on  the  other  ships,  but  their  valuation 
I  think,  in  m<»st  of  them,  perhaps  all  of  them. 

Q._A11  of  them,  liad  yon  not?  A.— 1  gave  the  cost.  I 
think,  in  the  most  of  Ihem.  i)er  haps  all  of  them. 

Q. — But  you  say  that  although  this  testimony  speaks  di- 
rectly of  your  putting  the  cost  of  the  "Thornton"  down  at 
|!4,(»00,  that  testimony  is  erroneous?      A. — Yes,  she  cost  more 
S^    than  that. 

Q. — The  (|uestion  is  not  what  the  fact  is,  but  whether  you 
so  testified.  If  you  say  you  did  not  it  puts  us  to  the  trouble 
of  proving  that  you  did.  A. — I  don't  remember  of  the  state- 
ment of  i)utting  her  in  that  way  at  the  «'ost. 

Q. — But  you  did  put  in  all  the  other  vessels  of  the  fleet  in 
the  same  connection  and  immediately  following?  A. — They 
are  there  about  the  cost,  the  others. 

(i. — .\nd  y<tur  attention  was  directly  called  to  the  question 
60   of  cost  by  your  own  question?      A. — So  it  appears. 

Q. — You  said  back,  "The  cost  of  running  them?"  he  an- 
swered back,  "Xo,  the  vessels?"  meaning  the  cost  of  the  ves- 
sels? A. — Certainly.  All  I  know  |4,(MI(»  could  not  be  cor- 
I'cct  on  the  cost. 

Q. — In  the  <'vent  of  your  recovery  in  the  "Thornton"  case 
which  you  have  been  presenting  to  your  own  (lovernment  and 
to  the  Commission,  is  Mr.  Joseph  Boscowitz  by  your  arrange- 


40 


^m 


lO 


20 


30 


945 
(J.  I).  Wam'U — CiH>BB.) 
oue-half?      A.— Of    the 


i-ecovei-y   of    the 


40 


60 


lUfut     to  receive 
"Thornton?" 
O.— Yes,  sir?      A.— No. 

Q. — He  c'onteiidK,  does  be  not,  that  he  in  to  receive  it  all? 
A.  -Of  the  value? 

Q. — Yes.  A. — 1  don't  think  it,  unless  he  wants  to  take  it 
on  general  airount. 

Q. — Now,  at  the  time  you  testified  as  to  putting  the  ma- 
chinery on,  and  after  the  machinery  was  put  on,  you  put  a 
mortgage,  I  think  you  have  said,  to  tfoseph  Koscowitz  for  f4,- 
(MM»?     A.— fi.OOO,  yes. 

Q. — That,  you  observe — it  may  be  a  coincidence — was  just 
about  the  cost  of  the  "Thornton"  as  you  are  claimed  to  have 
stated  it  in  that  testimony  in  the  Supreme  Court?  A. — I 
might  have  had  reference  to  the  mortgage  that  he  had  as 
Hecurlty,  certainly  the  cost  is  more  than  that. 

Q. — >Vhere  di«l  you  buy  that  engine?    A. — From  a  man 
by  the  name  of  (Sowen. 
Q. — Made  it  hero?      A. — Made  it  here. 
Q. — Where  is  he?      A. — 1  don't  know. 
Q. — When  did  you  last  see  him?      A. — I  haven't  seen  him 
for  some  years. 
Q.— Did  he  build  it  here?      A.— Yes.  sir. 
Q. — What  waK  his  business?      A. — Machinist. 
Q. — Did  you  look  up  the  price  of  engines  at  all  before  you 
ordered  this  constructed?      A. — Oh.  I  enquired  around  some. 
(J. — Had  you  put  in  steam  fittings  before  in  any  boats?      A. 
I  don't  think  so. 

Q. — Still  it  was  being  done  here?  A. — Oh.  yes,  it  was  be- 
ing done. 

Q. — And  engines  were  purchased  ready-made  frequently, 
were  they  not,  to  put  into  the  ships?    A. — Very  often. 

Q. — Did  you  have  a  machine  shop  here  that  built  engines? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  had  engines  for  sale?      A. — Built  them  to  order. 
Q. — Did  this  man  have  a  machine  shop?     A. — Yes. 
{}. — Where  was  it  situated?      A. — It  was  situated  on  Store 
street,  a  little  to  the  other  side  of  Victoria  street,  as  you  go 
out. 

Q.— And  his  full  name?  A.— Thomas  Oowan,  or  Gowen. 
T  wouldn't  be  positive. 

Q. — r>o  you  know  when  he  left  here?  A. — No.  I  don't 
know  just  the  year. 

Q. — Did  you  ever  hear  wliere  he  went?  A. — He  was  in 
Westminster  for  some  time,  he  was  on  tlie  Sound,  and  after 
that  T  think  he  wen,  to  Westininster. 

Q._He  may  be  there  now?  .\.— No.  he  left  there.  1  don't 
know  where  he  is  now. 

Q._About  what  tieie  did  lie  leave  Victoria?      A.— Oh.  he 
must  have  left  Victoria  al)out  eiglit  or  10  years  ago.  I  think. 
Q.—Pid  jinyone  succeed  to  his  busint'ss?      A. — No. 
Q._riosed  tip?      A.— Closed  up  the  place. 
Q._Por  how  long  a  time  did  you  fit  out  the  "Thornton."  do 
vou  sav,  in  ISSfi?      A.— For  how  long  a  time  did  I  fit  her  out? 
■    Q.— Yes,  in  May?       .\.— Well,  she  was  fitted  out,  it  was 
some  time  in  September,  she  didn't  have  all  her  stuff  on  board 
then.      She  had  all  aboard.  I  guess,  that  was  charged  to  her. 
Q._Por  about  four  months?      A.— For  about  four  months. 
Q.— That,  of  ( ourse,  incbides  the  time  it  takes  to  come  Jinck 
from  Behring  Sea?      A.— No.  she  would  be  rather  over  that, 
three  or  four  months  generally  speaking. 

Q._You  fitted  her  out  for  a  full  season  of  about  four 
months'  fishing  and  hunting  in  the  Northern  Pacific  and  in 
Bphring  Sea?      A.— Yes,  about  that. 


■r 


'I' 


lii 


I ' 


20 


30 


946 

(J.  D.  Wai'wii — CroHH — Kt'diifft.) 

Q. — When  you  saw  the  "Tlioriiton"  on  the  beach  up  there 
in  .lul.v,  1887,  did  .von  ronHider  her  n  total  los«?  A. — Oh, 
the  vesHel  could  be  Rot  off  and  fixed  up  ri|?ht  enough. 

Q. — At  a  cost  lews  than  her  value?  A. — Perhaps  some; 
it  would  coHt  a  good  deal  of  money. 

Q. — Did  you  state  in  your  presentation  of  your  claim  as 
your  solemn  and  sincere  declaration  to  the  British  Oovern- 
,o  nient  that  from  the  inspection  made  by  you  on  the  13th  of 
July,  18.8".  you  believe  from  your  inspection  it  would  cost  over 
14,0(10  to  take  the  "Thornton"  fi-om  Ounalaska  to  Victoria 
and  put  her  in  good  order?  A. — To  take  men  then*,  take  Tier 
off,  and  put  her  in  thorough  good  order  niachinerv  and  every- 
thing else,  it  would  cost  16.000. 

Ue-direct  examination  by  Sir  C.  H.  Tupper. 

t^.— A  question  I  omitted  to  ask  you,  Mr.  ^^•a^ren,  and  that 
is,  what  use  you  nuide  of  these  vessels  after  your  coast  seal- 
ing?     A. — Some  of  them  1  used  to  do  freighting  with. 

y. — In  what  seasons  of  the  year?    A. — The  fail  and  wint€*r. 

Q. — Did  you  use  the  "Thornton"  for  that  purpose?  A. — 
Yes. 

(i. — And  you  sent  a  fleet  out  in  1887  to  Behring  Sea  after 
having  been  there  in  1880,  did  yon  send  all  tlie  fleet  you  had 
except  the  "Thornton"  in  1887?      A.— To  Behring  Sea? 

y. — Yes.       A. — Well,  the  "Bustler"  was  wrecked. 

Q. — I  say  the  fleet  you  had  the  management  of?  A. — Yes, 
I  think  so. 

Q. — If  you  had  had  the  "Thornton"  you  would  have  sent 
her  to  Behring  Sea?      A. — Yes,  I  expect  so. 

Q. — Not  what  you  expect,  but  what  was  your  plan  in  188(5? 
A. — My  plan  -.'^■as  to  send  all  to  Behring  Sea,  ai>d  I  believe  I 
intended  to  send  the  "Rustler"  too,  if  she  hadn't  been  lost. 

Q. — You  were  asked  in  reference  to  the  books  that  were 
kept.  You  were  away  a  good  part  of  the  tiiiie  in  these  years 
from  Victoria?  A. — In  188()  I  was  away  for  almost  a  whole 
sealing  season. 

Q. — Now,  some  of  these  vessels,  including  the  "Thornton, 
were  in  the  habit  of  obtaining  supplies  outside  of  Victoria, 
that  is  for  instance,  (he  "Dolphin"  gave  in  the  "Thorntcm's" 
case,  some  supplies,  you  had  trading  posts,  you  say.  What 
was  the  nuinner  in  which  the  items  for  those  booka  were  re- 
ceived at  Victoria  where  the  books  were?  A. — The  people  at 
those  places  would  make  out  a  statement  on  a  sheet  of  paper 
and  send  it  up  to  the  head  office. 

Q. — Who  handed  in  the  slips  here,  the  people  or  the  cap- 
tain of  the  vessel?  A. — The  people  at  the  station  when  they 
delivered  goods  to  the  vessels  gave  the  captain  an  account,  if 
the  captain  delivered  anything  to  them  he  would  send  in  his 
account. 

Q. — Those  were  sent  to  Victoria  or  should  be?  A. — Should 
be. 

Q. — As  a  matter  of  fact  how  did  the  captains  keep  these  ac- 
counts on  bo<iks  or  slips  of  paper?  A. — I  can  hardly  say; 
some  <»f  them,  I  know,  had  little  books  that  they  kept  to  enter 
them  on. 

Q. — But  they  always  kept  them  on  books  or  slips  of  paper? 
A. — I  cannot  say.  I  don't  reiollect,  I  didn't  always  see  their 
books. 

(). — V(Mi  told  Mr.  Dickinson  that  you  had  some  books  in 
I8sr)  and  you  mentioned  among  other  things  a  bank  account, 
or  Mr.  Dickinson  mentioned  tlia<;  had  you  a  bank  account 
in  188(5?     A. — I  had  'inly  a  bank  account  of  the  steamer, 

y.— What  sleauier?    A.— The  "Boscowilz." 


40 


6o 


lO 


A.— Yes;  walked  ar- 


30 


60 


947 
(J.  I».  W'ai-ivii — lU'dinH't.) 

Q.— Mr.  DickiuHon  was  ivfeiriiig  to  the  "Thornton";  had 
.von  an.v  bank  attounl?    A.— Not  in  1886;  I  hadn't 

*i.— Had  .vou  un^  bank  aiiount  tovi-rinK  the  "Thornton's" 
transactions?    A.— Not  in  •8«;  no. 

S<mn"d?"  A -^{.s"  ^"^  "''*  ^^""^^  '^"^  "^''"''*'  "*  C'»^«<l"ot 

Q.— Did  you  see  the  vessel  ashore  there?  A.— I  saw  her 
while  she  was  ashore. 

Q— What  ehiiiaeter  of  shore  was  it.  ro»ky  or  sandv''  \  — 
She  was  hjying  on  the  sand  flat;  quite  smooth  wati'r  w'h«'.re 
she  was. 

Q.— Did  you  see  her  at  low  water? 
ound  her. 

Q. — Did  you  examine  her?     A.— Yes. 
Q.—>Vas  she  injured?    A —Xot  (hat  I  eon  id  see 
Q.— Was  she  not  off?    A.— Slu-  was  not  off. 

-,    ,„?;~'^"''  *"•'  •*'"'  P»'«"''  '"'••  lepiilar  business  in  1SS.1.  1884 
20   1885  and  up  to  1880?     A.— Yes. 

Q.— And  did  .^ou  observe  any  l>ad  effect  from  tlie  irroiind 
inp— strandinjr?    A.— \o,  I  didnt. 

Q-— ^'o"  spoke  of  overhauling  your  vessels  constantiv;  was 
this  vessel  overhauled  af(er  18M:j  aiiunallv?  A.— Yes' everv 
year. 

Q.— Was  the  vessel  surveyed  before  slic  was  insured  in 
1885?     A. — Yes,  she  was  surveyed. 

Q. — Do  you   i'ecoHe<t   l»y   whom   she   was  surveved?     A. 

By  Caj)tain  Lewis. 

Q. — In  regard  to  your  voucliers  I  understand  from  you  in 
your  direct  examinalion  that  you  li:ive  not  in  existence  to- 
day the  vouchers  and  meinorandun)  which  vou  had  in  1S87 
connected  with  the  "Thornton?"     A. — Xo. 

Q. — Am  I  right?     A.— Vou  are  righl. 

Q. — Nor  do  you  rem«'mbtr  (liese  transactions  as  well,  I  sup- 
pose, as  in  1887?     A.— Xo,  of  course  tlie  time  is  longer. 

Q. — How  did  you  ke«'p  tliese  papers  which  you  had  before 
the  litigation  commenced  and  through  all  tliose  ditferent 
suits,  do  you  remember?     \. — They  were  generally  filed. 

Q. — How  did  you  tile  them?  A.— Just  done  them  up  to- 
gether like  this  (indicating)  and  tied  tliem. 

Q. — Had  you  to  go  through  all  these  papers  for  these  dif- 
ferent examinations  to  which  Mr.  Dickinson  has  referred? 
A. — I  had  to  go  through  them  all  with  the  ex<"eption  of  the 
lot    of  the  "Thornton." 

Q. — But  in  connection  with  that  litigation  had  you  not  to 
go  through  those  papers  as  well?  .V. — Not  the  "Thornton's" 
papers. 

Q. — Yo.i  are  positive  about  that?    A. — Yes. 

Q. — How  did  tlies*'  papers  get  mislaid?  .\. — I  can't  tell 
myself;  I  don't  think  they  were  opened;  I  think  the  whole 
lot  were  together. 

Q. — Until  wlien?  A. — I  don't  know  when;  they  weiv twice 
taken  charge  of  by  the  sheriff. 

Q. — Since  the  litigation  and  since  18S7  the  sheriff  has  been 
in  possession  of  your  office?     A. — Since  the  litigation. 

Q. — .\nd  therefore  you  have  not  had  absolute  control  over 
your  papers  since  1887?    A. — Xot  all  the  time. 

Q. — You  have  no  other  explanatiim  to  offer  for  not  being 
able  to  produce  the  papers  in  1887?  A. — Except  in  the 
"Thornton's"  1  can't  understand  it. 

(J. — In  ccmiiection  with  memoranda  and  vouchers  is  it  not 
a  fact  that  you  had  oiH'ned  these  genei-al  charges  which  were 
subdivid4>d  by  memoranda  of  your  own  as  to  the  ships  t<) 
which   thes*^    things    behmged?      A. — Yes,    some    voui-hers 


40 


SO 


=1 


r 


u 


i 


II 


■*  P 


1 1 « 


948 


,  I    I 


lO 


20 


30 


(J.  D.  Wurivu— llo-diivft.) 

Hlioiild  bt'  iniirkcd;  if  tlif  whoU^  vuuelu'r  did  uut  bi'long  to 
tliHt  ttdi(H>uer  I  Hli(»uld  iiitiriv  tin*  articlcH  that  did  not. 

Cj. — And  did  you  um  u  mutter  of  fiu-t  uiaice  memoranda  of 
tliat  l<ind  on  voiu-liei-H  at  lliat  timt>?    A. — 1  did  all  tlie  time. 

(2. — Htate  in  .vour  own  lan(;uage  again  liow  you  prepared 
the  Mtatenient  at  Ottawa;  wliat  Ivind  of  memoranda  did 
vou  talie  to  Ottawa?  A.— Wlun  I  went  to  Ottawa  I  laid  to 
divide  tlie  dilTereiit  tilings  the  best  I  linew.  I  didn't  have 
any  bool<R  and  didn't  liave  any  vouehers. 

Q- — Taliing  tile  iteinH,  is  tliere  nuicli  diRrrepaney  between 
the  total  and  your  bool»8*/    A.— I  don't  thinii  it. 

Q- — Bnt  tliere  would  be  a  diHtrepancy  aH  between  the  Rub- 
headH?  A.— Yes,  there  might  be  Home,'  I  don't  thinlv  the  di8- 
ercpnncy  amounts  to  a  great  deal  anyway. 

Q.— Hut  the  Hum  total  would  not  vary  much?  A.— No, 
not  nimh,  there  was  some  thingn  I  put  in  that  account  from 
memory  that  were  not  charged  to  the  vessel  that  year. 

<i.— Yon  deiH'nd*^!  then  on  the  bulk  a<-<-ount8  and  your 
memory  at  the  time?  A.— Yes,  and  the  names  of  the  people 
that  the  bills  were  from. 

Q. — You  were  examined  in  reference  to  the  inventory  of 
the  'Thornton"  taken  ity  tlie  I'nited  Wtntes  authorities'  ap- 
parently on  till'  1  ttli  of  .\uguHt.  Before  answering,  Mr. 
bickinson  had  your  attention  been  called  to  the  entry  in  the 
log  on  the  7th  of  August,  made  by  Outtormseu?  A.— No,  I 
think  not. 

Q. — As  a  matter  of  fact,  had  you,  before  anHwering  Mr. 
Dickinson,  in  <'ourt  to-day,  observed  the  entry  in  this  log  of 
the  7th  of  AiigURt,  the  inventory  marked  a't  the  end  of  the  log 
and  referring  back  in 'terms  to  the  7th  of  August,  where  it 
appears  that  certain  articles  were  taken  frcmi  tlie  schooner, 
for  instance,  IIH)  poundR  of  tlour,  Iti  pounds  of  dried  apples, 
25  pounds  of  rice,  15  pounds  of  sugar,  00  pounds  of  beans, 
two  boxes  of  bread  and  other  articles  for  the  use  of  the 
United  States  in  transferring  prisoners  to  San  Francisco. 
Had  vou  seen  tliat  before?     A. — I  mav  have  seen  it  some  time 


40  ago. 


Q. — .\s  a  matter  of  fact,  had  you  seen  that  before  you  came 
into  court?      A. — 1  think  I  liad  heard  something  about  it. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Tliat  is  a  part  of  what  is  already  in  evi- 
dence, Sir  C'liarh's. 


io 


Sir  ('.  H.  Tapper; 
so  far  as  lie  km  w. 


-Yes,  but  I  asked  him  if  that  was  right, 


60 


Q. — Y«iu  told  Mr.  Dickinson,  in  connection  with  that,  that 
you  observed  that  according  to  the  inventory  taken  by  the 
riiited  States,  they  found  Itlti  pounds  of  lard.  Uow  niueli 
lard  a[»pears  to  liave  lieen  charged  to  the  "Thornton"  on  those 
books  that  you  say  were  kept  of  your  business  in  18St»?  A. — 
I  can  only  find  .50  pounds 

Q. — .\iid  you  mention  bread.  How  mucli  bread  appears  to 
have  been  charged  in  your  book?      A. — Six  boxes  of  biscuit. 

Q. — Wliereas  some  seven  odd  boxes  appear  in  the  two  in- 
ventories there?      A. — Yes,  I  believe  so. 

Q. — Observing;  tlial,  would  you  say  that  tlie  books  were 
carefully  kejit?  A. — Well,  I  certainly  believe  that  there  was 
bread  aboard  tlu'ie  that  was  not  entered. 

Q. — Have  yon  any  doubt  about  it?  .\. — 1  have  no  doubt 
about  it. 

Q. — You  wer>'  careful  in  regard  to  that  part  of  your  ex- 
amination to  say.  that  so  far  as  you  could  see.  nothinc  ap- 
peared to  have  lieen  left  out  of  the  inventory  of  the  14th  of 
.Viiiriist.  1  infer  that  what  yon  meant  was  that  you  could  not 
lell  what  had  bt^en  counsumed  by  the  crew  or  lost  after  yoti 


•m 


20 


949 

(J.  D.  Warivn— Rpdircrf.  , 

had  gent  those  things  on  boiird,  is  that  wliat  you  desired  to 
intimate?  A.— I  couldn't  state  exactly  what  should  have 
l)een  aboard  at  that  time. 

Q.— And  from  a  general  gliince  at  the  inventory  It  seemed 
to  cover  what  ought  to  have  been  there  at  that  time.  A.— 
I  think  the  most  of  the  things  should  have  been  tliore  if  they 
were  not. 
10  Q. — You  are  merely  giving  your  opinion  in  answer  to  the 
question?       A. — Yes. 

Q- — You  said,  captain,  that  a  statement  was  being  prepar- 
ed, as  to  the  things  that  went  on  board,  and  you  referred  to 
the  counsel  for  the  Crown.  I>o  you  refer  specifically  to  a 
statement  being  made  from  the  books,  or  something  else? 
Was  there  any  statement  ever  prepared  by  anyone  at  the 
time  tliat  things  went  on  the  boat?  A. — No,  not  at  the  time 
they  went  on  the  boat. 

Q. — Then  you  have  reference  only  to  the  examination  that 
had  Ihh'u  made  of  the  books  bv  counsel,  and  for  counsel?  A. 
—Yes. 

Q. — You  know  of  no  formal  statement  for  this  court,  no  re- 
cord?     A. — No. 

Sir  <'.  H.  Tupper: — I  will  ask  my  learned  friend,  he  ex- 
amined very  pointedly  witli  regard  to  the  receipts  at  Ritka. 
Would  he  l)e  good  enough  to  let  me  see  those  receipts  at  this 
stage,  or  dws  lie  winli  to  reserve  them. 

30  Mr.  Dickinson: — You  must  l)enr  in  mind,  Sir  Charles,  that 
you  have  massed  all  the  other  Warren  cases,  five  or  six.  that 
follow  the  "Thornton."  I  would  prefer  to  i-eserve  our  own 
case  until  we  get  into  it. 

Sir  C.  H.  Tupper: — I  mean  with  regard  to  the  "Thornton'" 
as  my  learned  friend  states,  in  connection  with  his  vessel.  If 
he  has  received  other  articles  for  which  we  are  charging 
other  than  the  chronometer  and  log,  of  course,  I  take  it. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  have  no     receipts     expressly     for     the 
40   "Thornton." 

Q. — Have  you  looked  fov  the  other  letter  from  Gottormsen 
which  Mr.  Dickinson  asked  you  to  produce?  A. — This  is  it. 
iProducing  letter.) 

The  letter  reads  as  follows: 

W.  CLARK. 
Hitka,  Alaska.  Attorney  and  Counselor  at  Law 

and  Notar>  Public. 
50  Capt.  J.  D.  Warran,  Victoria,  H.  C. 

Reptbr  4th  188(5. 
Dr  Sir, 

In  adition  to  my  letter  jesterda  (wroght  by  Mr.  Dingly)  I 
must  infonn  jou  that  I  have  made  agreement  with  Mr.  Clark 
(Attomy)  to  folow  The  cas«»  up  untill  we  get  the  b«'st  of  it.  so 
vou  understand  to  shut(  vou  self  acording  to  hwat  time  vou 
"wil  pay  him  the  fee  of  f5(M>.«0. 

I  got  inventory  list  of  evry  thing  Jis  was  onboard,  the 
clironometer  I  was  trying  to  get  witli  nie  to  Victoria  but  hear 
in  Sitka  as  I  got  lukt  up,  the  tunied  the  cronometer  and  also 
my  sextant  over  to  the  Marshal.  Wen  the  time  conies  that 
I  can  come  outh  I  can  get  thise  things  by  svering  tha"t  it  is 
mine,  of  cose  I  can  swere  the  sextant  is  mine,  and  if  jou  did 
give  me  as  a  precent  the  cronometer  in  May,  I  can  then  swer 
it  is  mine.  I  could  make  jon  a  precent  of  igain  wen  Tget  it 
to  Victoria.  Well  yon  understand  bettre  youself  as  hwath 
kine  of  paper  you  could  send  to  me  for  to  precent  to  the 
court  to  that  effect.      James  Ogilvie  is  lost.      Munroes  tryal 


60 


1  ': 


w 


>  !' 


1:1 


if( 


i;    "f 


950 

(J.  I).  Wnw'ii — Il«' dlrtM't. 

will  roiiK-  III  MoihIii.v,  :iIho  ('iiroli-iuiH.  ('apt.  of  Klir  Kiin 
DiiiKo  Kot  2  niontliH  luiil  tin'  iiiatt*  1  iiiuiitli,  iNMiiiim'  li«>  wuh 
iiilfiHlin^  to  p»  to  Iteiint'  H«'»— Well  I  Ii)iv«>  iiu  iiior*'  to  nyv 
jiiHt  now  oiiclj  I  f(M'l  viT.v  iiiim'i-:i)il<'  in  faith.  on<»  du.v  Ih  hnijf- 
«•■■  than  '2  wi-ckH  in  Itcrin;;  H«>a. 

I  iiiniain  voni-n  ttlNMlitMit, 

(K,l.»       11.  (JT'TTOKMSEN. 
10       Letter  rfccived  anl  niaiketl  "KxJiiMt  4(i,  O.R.  Claim  No. 


I' I 


■I 


30 


(i.— Have  von  tin-  h-tli'i-  to  whii-li  tliiH  hiHt  h-tter  pefei-H, 
written  l»v  Mr.  Dintrl.v?       A.— What  Ik  the  date  of  that  one? 

(i.— Se|ite;nher.  Mil.  A.— I  think  I  Inive  got  a  letter,  Hi^n- 
e«l  h.v  .Mr.  Dinulv. 

Q.-  TiiJH  iH  the  letter  n-ferred  to.  a8  the  letter  written  bv 
Mr.  Dinjfl.v?      A.— That's  what   I  took  it  to  he. 

Q. — And  Ih  that  .Mr.  OnttorinHen'N  HiKiiatnre?  A. — (Ex- 
30  ainininp.)       VeM. 

Letter  marked  \o.  18  for  Identifiratlon. 

Q.— Have  you  been  able  to  find  anj-  other  letterB  bearing 
the  eaptain'M  HiKimture?  A. — To  the  best  of  my  knowledge 
that  Ih  all  I  ever  Haw. 

(i. — Tlieii  the  two  timt  hav«'  his  Hi^nature  tliat  are  in  your 
poHKeHsion.  tliese  are  from  Mr.  Dingly.  and  tliey  are  not  sign- 
ed l>y  <intt(»rmsen?     .\. — That  is  ho. 

(i. — Who  wan  Mr.  I>ingly,  was  he  a  friend  of  Mr.  Clark's".' 
A. — Clark  &  Dingly  is  the  name  of  the  firm,  or  Dingly  & 
Clark  or  something. 

y. — Now,  you  were  asked  in  regard  to  the  steam  nnxiliiry. 
What  speed  eould  you  drive  your  vessel  at  with  that  engine"? 
A. — Well,  between  four  and  five  knots. 

Q. — You  spoke  «»f  Mr.  C«»wan.  At  that  time  was  there  a 
regular  boiler  works  or  engine  business  here,  or  was  this  a 
special  work'/  A. — Wliat  is  railed  the  Albion  Inm  Works 
was  liere  then,  to<t. 

Q. — Was  Cowan  in  that  line  of  business?  A. — He  made 
engines,  h«'  was  in  that  line. 

(i. — IMd  tile  engine  eome  up  to  your  exiM'etation?  A. — 
Yes,  I  think  it  did. 

(i. — He  did  tlie  work  ssitisfaetorily?     A. — Yes. 

Q. — Was  that  engine  in  gtMsl  shape?  A. — She  was  able  to 
do  that  four  or  tive  knots  in  1SS<>;  she  was  always  able  t«)  d«» 
about  that. 

(J. — Now,  parts  of  dilTeivnt  examinations  of  yours  in  litiga- 
tion, wliieh  you  have  had  with  Mr.  Itoscowitz  have  bt*en 
shown  to  you,  and  you  were  asked  particularly  regarding  a 
statement  made  where  you  used  the  language:  "I  put  the 
Tliornton"  I  think  at  |4,<MM»."  What  did  ycm  actually  mean 
by  that,  Mr.  Warivn?  A. — Well,  as  I  sjiid  before,  I  must 
have  had  ref»'ivnce  to  security  for  him. 

Q. — As  a  matter  of  fa<'t,  have  you  not,  on  one  or  two  oc- 
casions, jMit  your  various  sliips  on  a  list  in  order  to  submit  a 
])ro)>osition  to  Mr.  Biiscowitz  for  further  advances?  A. — For 
getting  advances. 

Q. — And  did  you  intend  to  ivprewnt  to  him  the  cost  of  the 
vessel,  or  what  the  cash  value  would  be  in  case  of  sale  under 
security,  wliicli?  A. — No,  my  intention  was  not  to  represent 
the  cost  of  the  vessels,  but  to  show  him  that  he  would  be  safe 
in  loaning  tliat  amount  of  numey  on  them. 

Q. — In  those  statements  to  which  ref«'rence  was  generally 
made  were  not  thi'  other  vessels,  say  the  "Grace,"  put  at  a 
small  figure  as  well?  .\. — Yes,  much  smaller  than  their 
cost. 


40 


50 


60 


=a 


r 


20 


30 


951 

(.1.  I).  WHm'ii— Ki'din-rt. 

Q.— Klu-  coHl  yiMi  tilMMit  |n>,(H)«),  did  hIi«>  not?  A.— Abiiut 
flG,(NNI. 

Q. — 8lu'  WHM  a  Ht«>aiii«'r  of  what  tonnagf?  A. — Hh«*  carrli'd 
mo  toiiH  of  «-oal. 

Q. — HIk>  coHt  .voii  fl(i,(HHK  l>o  yiHi  liappt'ii  to  n'mt'inlicr 
what  yon  put  h<*i'  <lowii  for  wlu'ii  l)oi'>'owiiiK  money  from  Mr. 
ItoHfowitz?  A. — T«>n  or  twclvi-  tluaiHand  dollarM,  I  think. 
10  Honu'thinK  like  tliat. 

Q. — Ho  that  in  tliow  Htatt'iiientH  of  uHHctg,  you  were  not 
putting  what  yon  wonld  i-all  aH  tlieir  real  valne,  liut  their 
value  for  Hafe  Heeurity?  \, — VeH,  wlien  I  put  them  down 
h'HH  tluui  the  eoHt. 

Q. — .\h  a  matter  of  fact,  if  theHe  i>aiM>i"H  were  pnMluced 
from  tlie  tourt,  would  they  not  mIiow  variouH  valneH  even  in 
ret;)ird  to  the  "Thornton,"  one  time  at  f.'i.tKK),  another  at  fH,- 
(MKI  and  another  at  |4,<MHI?  A.— i'es,  you  will  Hnd  all  these 
ditTerent  HtatementH. 

(i. — You  were  auked  in  regard  to  the  money  advanced  on 
that  vessel;  that  was  paid  olT,  was  it  not?  A.— The  "Thorn- 
ton's was  paid  olT;  yes. 

Q. — Now  in  regard  to  Mr.  trooper.  He  is  your  brother-in- 
law,  is  he  not?     A. — Yes. 

y. — lie  has  bcH*n  living  in  San  Fraiuiseo?    A. — Y«'s. 

(i. — As  a  matter  of  faet,  luul  he  anything  to  do  at  any  time 
with  the  "Thoniton"?     A.— Not  witli  the  "Thornton."  no. 

Q. — The  same  to  which  you  ivfer,  liad  that  anything  to  do 
with  the  "Thornton"?     A.— No. 

Q. — That  related  to  other  vessels  in  the  fleet?  A. — Other 
veswls. 

(2. — Wlien  you  H|M>ak  of  bidding  them  in  a  friendly  way 
you  referred  to  the  other  vessels  of  your  fleet,  which  ymi 
named,  and  n«»t  the  "Thornton"?  \. — No,  the  ''Thornton" 
was  seized  and  it  d<<in't  matter. 

(i. — At  that  time  slui  was  not  in  your  |M>SHessinn  at  all, 
but  was  actually  under  sclzuiv?     A. — Not  in  my  possession. 

Q. — I  want  you  t«»  explain  why  these  vessels  in  that  sale 
were  kniH-ked  down  at  a  nominal  sum?  A. — >Vell,  they 
were  put  up  for  the  ])ur]iose  of  transferring  the  c<mtrol. 

y. — But  as  a  nuitter  of  fact,  were  they  not  all  mortgaged? 
A. — They  were  all  mortgaged. 

Q. — Tliey  wer«'  put  up  under  coutrtd?  A. — They  wefe 
mortgag(Hl  for  a  good  deal  more  money,  my  liabilities  were 
n'duced  to'  flW.IMMI  at  that  tim".  and  these  vessels  were  put 
up,  bought  in  in  that  way,  and  then  I  gave  mortgages  to 
cov«'r  the  indebtedness. 

Q. — \Yei"e  they  put  up  free  from  the  mortgages?  \\i\»  an^ 
arrangement,  made  by  whi<"h  they  should  be^  free  from  th«' 
mortgages?  NVo\ild  a  purchaser  take  them  w^ith  the  mort- 
gage? A. — No,  it  was  all  clear  of  the  mortgage,  sold  undef 
the  mortgage. 

Q. — Who  arrsinged  the  sale  at  the  time,  did  the  mortgagee 
immediately  have  thos«'  mortgages  re-«'gi8tered?  A. — Th<! 
new  ones? 

(J— Yes.     A.— Oh,  yes. 

tl — So  tliat  the  !aortgap,ee  had  his  mortgage  inten'st  bo- 
60  loie  and  after  that  «ale?    A. — Yts. 

Q.— Was  not  that  nnder.sloi,tl  at  the  time?  A. — Yes  thnt 
was  understood. 

Q. — Who  were  ni  the  sale?  .\.-  Well,  I  can  hardly  iv- 
number,  there  wasn't  many  tlnMe  at  any  rate. 

Q. — You  stated  there  was  a  loss  on  the  "Thornton '  wlien 
you  were  being  crosscxamined  in  Kome  previoas  litigation, 
and  you  attempted  to  give  an  explanation  as  to  what  you  re- 
ferred.    Will  you  please  state,  first  of  all.  In  1886,  what  you 


40 


50 


l! 


V-l 

h 


i'l 


I  '^i 


^ 


»:  . 


I 


95* 
(.1.  D.  WHiren— Rc-dlnTt.) 

di'imHl  on  that  tl<H>f.  notwitliMtnndinK     (ho     M>ixuri>?    A.— 
Hiiirc  th«-  iMMtii  hour  I  w«>iit  iiiiil  t<H»k  froiii  th«'  ImmiIih — 

y.— I  oiil.v  WHIH  (hf  bulk  Huin?  A.— On  Ihc  oth«r  vcmim-Im, 
leaving  tin-  "Thornton"  out  nml  th.-  ft-w  MkinH  w  Innmht.  f21,- 
}»H*.».4»  w««  our  proflti.  nnil  on  iIl'  "Thui-uton"  outfit  wr  UM 
?4,ltM»  4H. 

The  rommiHHJoner  on   the  pnrt  of  the  TTnittMl  Htates:— 
'°   How  many  bontB  were  there  in  the  whole  H«H't? 

WitneHH: — There  were  »ix. 

The  ComniiHHioner  on  the  pnrt  of  the  TTnited  fltateii:— 
How  many  boats,  I  mean  hunting  boata? 

VVitnem:— I  think  about  10  white  ImatH. 

The  CommiHHioner  on  the  part  of  tlw  ITnlted  KtateH:— Pig- 
2o   ure  them  carefully,  I  want  to  know. 

WitneHs: — Well,  your  Honour,  these  vemielH  <m  the  couHt 
UHed  to  earry  minietinieH  um  higli  ati  20  eano(>M  (m  a  venHel.  I 
ean  give  tlie  amount  of  canoeH  on  the  veawlH  to  Behring  Heft. 
I  make  It  ten  l»oat8  In  Beliring  Sea  and  .'»8  lamM'H,  and  on  the 
coast  I  should  suppo8(>  there  would  Iw  in  tlie  neigliborhood 
of  :M)  more  canoeM. 

Hir  C.  H.  Tapper:— You  have  given  an  answer  about  tiie 
.Q  four  tliousand  and  odd  dollars  loss,  what  do  you  mean  by  that 
loss;  had  that  anything  to  d«*  with  the  cost  of  the  vessels? 

Witness: — The  vessel  herself  was  not  taken  into  cai<-ula- 
tion  at  all  nor  the  values  of  any  of  the  vessels,  only  the  work- 
ings of  the  business. 

Q. — You  were  examined  further  as  to  your  answers  in  re- 
gard to  the  construction  of  a  charter  and  obje«'t  of  the 
charter  being  taken  by  someone  else  after  the  assignment  i>f 
.Q  your  vessels,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  all  this  litigation  ended  in  a 
decree,  did  it  not?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — And  you  did  not  succeed  in  having  your  interpretation 
of  yonr  relations  with  Mr.  Boscowitz  endorsed  by  the  court? 
A. — No. 

Q. — Their  construction  of  your  relations  was  diflferent  than 
your  own?      A. — Yes,  quite  diflferent. 


50 


The  Pommissloner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — What 
was  tlie  date  of  this  assignment  that  has  .  een  spoken  of? 

Sir  C.  H.  TH')per:— I  think  1885. 

Witness:— l!    the  fail  of  1885. 


60 


Q.— Theash' 
in  18S5?      A. 

Q. — You  wei 
sels?      A— Y( 

Q.— Mr.  Ori) 
A. — .Tolin  Orif 


iment  to  wiiich  reference  has  been  made  was 

1885. 

not,  liowever,  the  registered  owner  of  the  ves- 

hs  was  tlie  assignee,  what   was  his  name? 
hs. 


.Mr.  Dickinson:— Tohn  H.  Oilfflths,  I  think. 

Sir  ('.  H.  TupiHT: — 1  sliall  purposely  abstain  from  going  Into 
tlie  qu<>Mtions.  some  of  whidi  were  touched  on  by  my  learned 
friend  at  this  stage.  I  think  it  better  to  carry  out  the  origi- 
nal method  in  which  we  projtosed  to  put  our  case,  and  leave 
tlie  questions  of  interest  and  ownership  and  that  kind  of 
tiling  until  its  proper  order  in  rebuttal. 


953 


(.1.  I).  WiinM'ii — lt«' rroHH.) 
K«>(TOM(>xaiiiiiia(ioii  Itv  Mr.  Mifkinwin; 

(i.— Ill  uiiHWiT  lo  llif  toiiit  .voii  Itild  till'  piolltM,  and  I  iiihIit 
Htooil  yo\i  lo  my  it  waH  prolitH  uf  tli«>  IiiihIui'mh  of  llfliiiiiK  H«>a? 
A.— Not  altoKcllKT— Ihf  McaNoii. 

(i.— Till'  roiiHt  ralcli  and  »>v«'r>tliliiK  Am-  iiiaki'H  up  tlicHi' 
proHtH  whicli  yoii  liiivi'  Htali'd?      A.— Vi-h. 

y.— Did  you  hiiy  IIiIk  Iok  for  tlii'  "Tliointoii.      Tin-  ori){iiial 
•o   blank  htMik?      A.— I  can  hardly  say;  vi-ry  liki'ly.  I  rouldn't 
nay  |HiMitivi>ly. 

(i.— Did  you  furniMli  tin*  winit'  to  your  other  ImmiIh?  A.— 
I  couldn't  n'lilly  miy,  I  «>.\|HTt«'d  it  would  he  iiwd  liy  lh(tiii 
118  a  part  of  thi'ir  Hiippllfti. 

Q- — !><»  you  not  rt'iiicinlicr  wlii'thfr  you  riiriiiHh«>d  thlH  par- 
ticular lojf.  puhliHhcd  l»y  Iniray  tt  Hon/London?  A.— I  don't 
r«*in«>inlH'r  tli»'  circiiiiiHtanct'. 

Q.— Befori*  w»'  lay  aHldi-  tin-  Iok.  I  winli  to  identify  certain 

2Q  parfH  in  it  ho  that  there  hIiiiII  he  no  niiHappreheiiHioii.      1  tliid 

in  that  loK  three  Iiminc  HheetK,  do  you  know  where  they  came 

from?      A. — Don't  it  hIioh   wheri'  they  came  out  of  the  Ion? 

Q. — I  want  to  hIiow  that  there  were,  in  tlie  Iok  hook,  threi' 
looMe  HheetH?      A. — I  Hee  they  are  there. 

Qi— Did  you  jjet  the  hook  in  tliis  condition  at  Rilka?  A.— 
Witli  them  three  hnwe  leaven? 

Q. — Did  you  K«'t  the  hook  in  the  condition  the  writiiiK  Ih 
now  in,  at  Sitka?  A. — Oh,  yew,  there  luiHu't  been  any  chanjje 
in  it  to  my  knowledge. 
30  Q. — And  I  ha>  made  no  iniHtake  In  your  tcHtimony  that  tlio 
liandwritiuK  on  the  ])a);eH  mnrkiil,  "J.  <'.  ('.  December  'JIUli, 
]Xft«,  to  .1.  V.  C.  December  2!»tli,  lH!t«"  are  in  your  captain'H 
handwriting?  You  sonaid  before?  A. — (Rxamtnin);)  I  took 
it  to  be  bin  writing. 

i.i. — And  the  reference  bn«k  on  the  last  jHige,  "See  in  re- 
tnarks  for  AugUHt  7th,"  is  that  liis  handwriting?  A. — I  ain't 
BO  sure  of  that. 

Q. — Turning  back  to  AiigiiHt  7(h,  in  that  in  hiH  handwriting 
the  regalnr  log  of  AugiiHt  7tli?     A. — I  think  that  if*.     (V.x 
^^  amining)     Including  the  wordH  in  bnicketH  on  the  name  day, 
flrat  page  of  Augunt  7tli.  "an  mentlon«>d  b«'low." 

Q. — You  do  not  know  of  any  other  writing  in  tliin  book  ex 
cept  hiH?  A. — No,  I  have  no  knowledge  of  anybo<ly  else 
writing  anything  in  it  whatever. 

Mr.  Dickinson : — This  biMik  Ih  only  markinl  for  identifica- 
tion.    Is  it  under  the  rule  dej»oHit«»d  in  tlie  archives? 

The  Commissioner  im  the  part  of  the  Uuitiil  States: — If 
50   marked  only  for  identification,  it  is  retained  by  counsel,  un- 
less otherwise  ordered. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  dt'sire  as  a  part  of  the  rross-examination 
to  put  this  book  '11  tlie  archives  of  the  rommission. 

Book  received  and  marked  ''ExIiihK  No.  47,  O.  B.,  riaim 
No.  2." 

Q. — You  have  no  doubt  that  Exhibit  40  is  in  the  captain's 
handwriting,  have  you?     A. — iP^xamining)  No,  I  believe  that 
60  is  his  writing. 

Q. — You  have  no  doubt  of  it,  have  yon?     A. — No. 
Q. — And  that  liis  signature  a])|H'ars  on  "No.  15  for  identi- 
fication?"     A.— That  is  right. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  would  like  to  have  these  letters  in  evi- 
dence, one  is  marked  foi'  identification. 

Sir  C.  H.  Tupper:— I  will  pnt  them  in. 


•.f> 


954 


:■»; 


10 


(J.  D.  Wnrrt'ti — Rt-ci-oss — Kt'-diroct.) 

Q. — I  woiihi  likt'  to  know,  riiptain  howiM'  other  naiiK>  who 
surveyed  the  "Tlioriiton"  in  ISSH?  A.— I  don't  know  ii8  I 
know  his  second  name. 

Q. — You  had  him  here  at»  a  witness?  A. — He  was  here 
this  niorninK- 

Q. — Is  \w  th«'  niiin  wlio  surveyed  the  boat?  A. — Tliat  is 
the  man. 

Q. — How  lonp  was  this  tleet  on  the  west  coast,  eonsistin); 
of  the  "Tluirnton."  th»'  "Dolphin,"  tlu'  'Anna  Heck,"  the 
"tJrace,"  tlie  "Uusth'r"  and  "Sayward"?     A. — In  which  year? 

Q.— In  IHSVi.  A.— About  the  middh'  of  May  they  were  pre- 
pared to  jio  north,  but  tlie  "Kustler"  stayed  later,  sh»'  went 
later  on  the  coast. 

Q. — But  how  lonj;  were  they  on  the  coast  before  entering? 
Hehrinjj  Sea?  A. — They  w<nt  into  Itehrint;  Sea  in  May. 
That  would  Ik*  perhaps  two  months  sealing;  on  tlu'  coast. 

Q. — They  started  out  in  February,  did  tliey  not?  A. — They 
started  somewhere  about  the  1st  of  March — the  latter  part  of 
February  jM'rhaps. 

Q. — Either  in  February  or  March  they  went  out  for  the 
coast  sealing,  tiie  tleet  of  si.\?     A. — Yes.  I  think  so. 

Q. — And  t».  "Rustler"  remaint'd  hm^iei-  on  the  cons*  And 
ent«'red  Mehrinfr  Sea  how  late?  A. — Sli«>  didn't  >jo  into  the 
Sea  she  remained  sealin}>  alon}j  the  coast,  slu'  reniiiintHl 
loufjer  on  aciount  of  not  };oin}r  into  Mehrin;;  Sea. 

Q. — The  catch  of  the  "Thoniton"  made  on  the  coast  is  esti- 
30  united  in  this  account  of  profits  iM'twwn  vou  and  Itoscowitz? 
.v.— Yes. 

Q. — You  said  to  the  learned  Commissioners  that  you  had  but 
2(>  boiits  all  told,  I  think?  A.— About  Ui  white  boats  and  38 
canoes,  I  think  I  said  for  Rehrinfr  Sea.  and  iterhajis  about  :{() 
more  canoes  on  tlu'  coast. 

Q.— Thirty  extra  to  the  ,18?      A.— Yes. 

(i.— Did  that  include  the  "Thornton's"  boats?  A.— The 
"Thornton  didn't  seal  with  boats. 


20 


40       The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the 
asked  for  it  aside  from  the  "Thornton." 


Tnited   States:— I 


50 


60 


i}. — llow  many  canoes  had  the  "Tliornlon"  on  the  coast? 
A. — I  cannot  say  positive,  I  suppose  she  would  have  from  10 
to  15  wherever  she  couhl  sjel   them. 

Q. — That  is  in  addition  to  what  you  }jave  the  court,  is  it 
not?  A. — Yes,  I  kind  of  roujihed  it  on  the  const,  I  cannot 
tell  any  more  thiin  I  would  know  they  would  lake  them  if 
they  could  fjet  1.1iem. 

(i. — That  would  make  "8  cnnoes  and  10  boats?  A. — Well, 
the  "Thornton"  did  not  have  boats  on  the  coiis(,  and  I  sup- 
pose likely  there  would  be  lather  more  canoes  lliiin  I  fi};ur«Ml 
on  b»>cause  she  would  {ret  canoes  on  the  coust?  I  suppose 
there  would  be  in  the  neighborhood  of  7t(  oi'  80  canoes  or  along 
there. 

Q. — -Vnd  10  boats?  A. — No,  there  would  not  be  only  four 
or  five  while  on  the  coast. 

Re-direct  examination  by  Sir  C  IT.  Tupp<'r. 

Q. — What  was  the  (lag  the  "Thornttm"  carried  mention- 
«'d  in  the  inventory?      A. — The  English  flag. 

Q. — I  omitted  to  ask  you  about  tlu'  value  of  the  fur  sea  J 
sl.Mis  in  1887 — we  have  evidence  as  t(»  their  value  in  1880. 
Can  yoii  tell  us  what  the  skins  of  the  Kehring  Sea  cat<h  went 
for  in  Victoria  in  1887?  \. — I  do  not  think  I  can  tell  you 
right  otT-hand  any  more  than  roughly:  In  1887  it  was  about 
¥(>.7ri  at  a  rough  calculation,  and,  in  fact,  I  have  imt  any  re- 
turns of  them  vet. 


'■2k 


K^ 


^i^ 


20 


955 
(IMsciiHHion.) 

The  (.'oiiiniiHKioiU'i'  on  Mic  piii(  of  the  riiited  States:— A  ro- 
inaik  iM'twwn  Sir  (Miailcs  Tiippt-r  and  Mr.  DukiiiMoii  led  mo 
fo  tliink  that  there  is  some  iiiisunderMtandin^  somewhere.  In 
tlie  i»-o(eediiitjs  all  alonjj,  I  unde-stood  that  after  cohnsel  for 
Her  Majesty  jtiit  in  the  n'fjistry  of  any  veKs«'l  to  i)rove  that 
she  was  a  British  vessel,  that  would  make  out  a  i»rinm  facie 
eas«'  for  the  whole  vessel,  and  ♦^hen,  if  there  was  American 
lo  citizenship  claimed  they  would  be  entitled  to  rebut.  That 
has  been  my  uuderstandin<r. 

Mr.  Peters:— I  do  not  think  that  there  is  any  misund"rstand- 
inp;  about  it.  I  do  not  think  that  Mr.  Dickinson  and  I  mis- 
understand .'ac!i  other. 

The  Comniissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States:— I  did 
not  quite  understand  the  remarks  make  by  counsel,  but  I 
thoupht  from  tlicni  there  miglit  be  s(nne  misunderstanding;.  It 
does  seem  to  me  thar  the  record  ou^jht  to  contain  a  certitied 
copy  of  the  repstry  for  every  one  of  these  vessels. 

Sir  C.  H.  Tapper:— I  have  it  here  in  the  case  of  the  "Thorn- 
ton." 

Mr.  I'eters: — Perhaps  the  substance  of  the  Registry  mipht 
be  snflficient. 

The  (Nnnmissioner  on  the  part  of  the   I'nited   States: — It 
mijiht  be  sufflcienl  for  us,  but  while  we  hope  that  this  will  not 
30   '^"  Iwyond  us,  yet  it  may.     Of  course  we  all  know  that  the  flaj; 
alone  does  not  prove  the  nationality  of  a  vessel. 

Mr.  I'eters :— We  have,  as  a  matter  of  f;ict,  certitied  copies 
of  the  re<'ord  of  these  vessels  from  the  first  tinu'  they  were 
registered  in  Victoria  until  the  present  time. 

Sir  (J.  H.  Tujiper: — This  might  be  an  opportune  time  to  put 
in  to  the  Record  the  registry  of  the  "Tlnunton." 

Mr.  Peters:— We  are  in  this  position,  the  question  of  foreign 
40  ownership  may  bec<»me  a  very  im])ortant  one  in  this  case,  and 
we  do  not  intend,  in  ihe  beginning  of  the  case,  to  make  our 
complete  proof;  we  look  upon  it  as  a  matter  in  which  it  may 
be  necessary  for  us  to  rebut,  and  we  must  not  be  understooil 
as  putting  in  all  oi>r  evidence  on  this  (luestion;  we  may  have 
to  make  rebuttal  evidence.  That  Ins  been  my  und<'rstand- 
ing  airthrough. 


50 


Mr.  Dickinson: — And  ours. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  p;irt  if  the  I'nited  States:— I  con- 
<eive  that  the  ("ommissioners  have  nothing  whatever  to  do 
with  the  <|iiestion  of  ownership  except  so  far  as  it  is  raised  in 
the  n-anner  in  which  .Mr.  Dickinson  raises  it  in  his  pleadings. 
We  have  no    qu('Hti«»n  to  settle  as  between  Kritish  ownershij). 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Your  Honour  im  refreshing  your  mind 
from  the  Convention,  I  think  will  see  you  must  find  that  there 
is  n  private  claim. 


60 


The  Commissioner  on   the   jtart   of  the 
mean  as  between  Rritish  ownj-rs. 


I'nited   States:—! 


Mr.  Dickinson: — Your  Honour  is  quite  correct  in  that. 

The  (\mimissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Do 
.vou  think  that  we  are  bound  to  find  as  to  each  owner? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  think  you  have  to  find,  tinder  the  Con- 
vention, that  this  a  private  claim  of  owners. 


ik, 

i 

1 

1 

it 

'•A 

1 

i 

f 

! 

1 

It' 

5^' 

■  !■ 

!>■'£ 


- 


?. 


I 


1; 


r^' 


IS;:: 

\v 


"'iji 


■lll'll« 


}'-'l 


lO 


20 


30 


,1   '. 


056 

(DiHcuHHion.) 

Tlw  ('oiiimissioner  on  the  jtarf  of  tlu*  United  States: — I 
nnderstand  that,  but  do  you  think  that  we  have  to  Und  a»  to 
the  rights  of  each  person  interested  in  each  vessel.  Su|)pose 
that  we  are  satisfied  that  a  vessel  belongs  to  British  owners 
and  that  the  claims  aw  purel.v  private,  aiv  any  of  tl»e  counsel 
of  the  opinion  that  we  hav«'  also  to  detennine  the  rights  be- 
tw«><*n  the  i)i'ivate  owners? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — No,  your  Honour,  I  do  not  think  that  you 
will  have  to  go  into  the  «]u<^tion  between  Boacowitz  and  War- 
ren, for  instance,  to  settle  the  dispute  between  them. 

Sir  (\  H.  Tupi)er: — I  tender  in  evidence  the  Register  of  the 
"Tliornton." 

Received  and  niarkcd  "Exhibit  48.  (}.  B.,  (^laini  No.  2.'' 

Sir  O.  H.  Tapper: — I  beg  to  present  a  certifl«'ate  of  the  sur- 
vey of  the  "Tliornton"  in  connection  with  the  reduction  of  the 
tonnage  after  she  was  made  a  steamer;  this  shows  li«»w  the 
registered  tonnage  of  22.o()  is  reached. 

Re<eivtMl  and  mark«'d  "Exhibit  49,  C.  B.,  Claim  No.  2." 

Sir  O.  H.  Tapper: — I  beg  to  j»resent  the  paper  marked,  "17 
for  identiflcati«»n."  whidi  was  made  the  basis  of  the  examina- 
tion of  the  last  witness. 

Mr.  IMckinson: — We  object  most  decidedly  to  an  ex  paile 
claim  made  up  by  Captain  Warren  in  Ottawa. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  T^nited  States: — Weiv 
not  thes*'  papers  laid  before  the  Paris  Arbitration,  and  aiv 
they  not  by  the  Treaty  made  o])en  to  us? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Even  sujums**  they  aw».  Your  Honours 
must  bear  in  mind  that,  owing  to  tlie  difficulties  before  tlie 
Paris  Tribunal  of  getting  at  the  facts  upon  the  conHict  of 
witnesses,  this  very  Commission  was  appointed  to  hear  the 
oral  testimony.  I  need  not  go  over  the  whole  ground  of  argu 
40  ment  again  in  the  matter. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  pjjt  of  the  United  States  :■ — Do 
not  we  take  cognizance  of  them  whether  they  are  put  in  here 
or  not? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — It  is  before  the  Tribunal,  but  we  object 
most  enipluitically  to  the  introduction  of  it  as  special  evi- 
dence before  this  Tribunal  on  the  issues. 

Sir  C.  H.  Tupper: — I  tender  this  for  what  it  is  worth,  and 
50   of  course,  I  appreciate  the  force  of  my  lejinied  friend's  objec- 
tion.    There  n»ay  1h»  a  very  great  diffeivni  '  of  opinion  as  to 
its  particular  value,  but  the  jmpers  may  be  received,  subject 
to  the  objection. 

Tfie  <'<)mmissioiier  on  tlie  part  of  Her  Majesty: — Upon 
what  principle? 

Sir  C.  H.  Tuj»|MM': — I  will  explain.  It  stHMns  to  me  that  it 
wctuld  1m'  well  to  i-emember  how  this  Commission  was  consti- 
60  tut*^!.  and  the  connection  betwe<'n  this  enciuiry  and  tlie  en 
quiry  at  Paris.  No  one  ever  thouglit  of  raising  any  objectl'iu 
to  that  document  being  made  the  very  basis  of  the  claim  in 
connection  with  the  "Thornton."  It  was  a  document  com- 
municated formally  by  the  British  Oovernment  to  the  United 
States  (lovemment.  It  was  a  claim  made  before  the  Arbitra- 
tors at  Paris  and  submitted  to  them.  It  formed  the  basis  for 
the  various  kinds  (►f  evidence  taken  on  the  different  suits, 
and  laid  liefore  the  I'arls  Arbitrators.     It  was  in  evidence  bt- 


957 


==fi' 


•*,! 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


(Disfiission.) 

fore  the  Arbitrators  at  Paris  wlio  luid  jurisdiction  to  go  into 
it — into  every  faet  and  item  of  it,  just  as  well  as  the  i)re8«iit 
Commissioners.  It  is  true  that  they  were  limited  in  regard 
to  their  finding.  l)ut  they  could  have  been  asl<ed — and  if  ask- 
ed they  would  liave  been  bound  under  tlie  term  of  the  Treaty 
to  find,  wei-e  the  fa«t8  correct  as  set  out  by  Captain  Warren. 

It  was  only  left  in  regard  to  the  amount  to  the  fiovern- 
ments  afterwards  to  arrange  as  to  the  liability  to  pay  that 
amount.  The  Tribunal  at  Paris  not  only  had  jurisdiction  to 
enquire  as  to  whether  these  fa<'ts  were  true,  and  as  to  wheth- 
er a  certain  loss  did  occur,  but,  under  the  terms  of  the 
Tn'uty,  they  would  have  been  bound  to  deal  with  the  subject. 
For  i'onvenience,  and  by  the  consent  of  the  two  Governments, 
at  Paris  furtlier  procet'dings  upon  such  questions  were  stayed 
until  negotiations  took  jdace  between  the  two  Oovernments; 
these  negotiations  liave  tak«'n  place,  and  the  only  ditfeivnct^ 
quoad  this  particular  matter,  and  the  functions  of  this  Tribu- 
nal are  two: 

The  first  is  as  to  the  introduction  of  evidence  to  guide  the 
CommiNsitui  in  tlu'  assessment  of  damages;  and  tlu'  second, 
as  to  the  functions  of  this  Tribunal  in  actually  finding  the 
lial)ilify  and  im]u>sing  the  liability  (m  the  (iovernment  of  the 
I'nited  States. 

Hut  in  regard  to  tlie  investigati<m,  tile  only  different  lan- 
guage which  is  usj'd  in  this  Convention  and  in  tlie  first  Treaty 
occurs  in  connection  with  the  words  "suitiible,  authentic 
testimony."  There  is  not,  so  far  as  I  know,  the  record  of  a 
case  Ix'fore,  or  since  the  Geneva  award,  where  in  an  assess- 
ment, or  investigation  of  tliis  kind,  a  jiaper  of  that  character 
has  been  excluded  from  consideration  of  the  Tribunal. 

As  a  matter  of  fact  it  was  befoi-e  tlie  Tribunal  at  Paris,  and 
that  Tribunal  sent  to  this  adjouraed  Tribunal  these  paj>ers, 
which  might  receive  and  discard  papers  which  they  consider- 
ed as  worthless,  as  the  Tribunal  at  Paris  miglit  liave  done 
when  it  came  to  the  (juestion  of  testimony. 

j'ut  here  we  have  a  statement  made  by  tlie  witn«'8s  as  to 
what  lie  did,  which  might  be  reci  ivcd  liy  any  one  as  entirely 
true,  viz.,  that  at  the  time  he  prepawd  the  claiiu  with  regard 
to  a  matter  which  occurred  ten  years  ago  the  facts  were  fully 
in  his  mind  at  tluit  time  when  he  did  prepare  this  formal 
statement  of  the  claiiu  whicli  he  wishe<l  to  jiress  u|H)n  his 
Goveniint  '<t.  This  pai>er  was  mad<'  tlu'  foundation  of  the 
examination,  and  he  had  to  submit,  and  did  submit,  to  a  very 
seiirching  cross-examination  upon  that  ex  parte  affidavit 
made  n«'arly  ten  years  ago.  It  is  of  cours«*  for  the  (Commis- 
sioners to  decide  how  h«'  came  out  of  that  or  what  benefit 
insofar  as  this  claim  is  concerned,  can  be  derived  from  any- 
thing he  has  sworn  to  in  this  case. 

This  document  was  before  the  Tribunal  at  Paris,  and  to 
exclude  if  for  what  it  is  worth  will  be,  I  think,  to  unduly 
embarass  the  pii'sentation  of  this  claim.  If  we  were  pro- 
ceeding befon'  an  ordinary  Tribunal,  it  is  clear  that  we  would 
have  all  the  resiMuisibility  that  attaches  to  the  claimant  on 
account  of  the  delay,  but,  as  has  be<»n  jKiinted  out  on  mort» 
than  one  oc<'asion  in  fhe  courw  of  this  investigation,  through 
no  fault  of  the  diamant's  time  has  r(»bbed  him  of  many  dm-u- 
ments,  and  much  evidence  that  ten  years  ago  could  have 
iMvn  easily  jtroduced,  and  which  would  have  shortened  the 
proc«>«'dings.  Therefore,  I  argue  that  scnne  latitude-  in  the 
l>res«'ntatioii  i)f  this  case  sluuild  be  given.  I  think  it  is  a 
paper  that  thi-  Commissitmers  should  caivfiilly  consider  as 
iuaring  on  fhe  case.  It  is  in  the  jiiinfed  Ile<-ord.  and  must 
be  befoiv  them,  and,  bi'ing  pi-oduced  here  in  cpnut'ction  with 


1:1- 


A  ; 


i: 


5! 


95« 


MX- 


■iiiii 


l>  :li 


20 


(DiMciissiuii.) 

the  (fstiiiioii.v  of  tlu-  witiU'HS,  it  iiDtkcH  Imh  whole  Mtateiiient, 
at  U*aHt.  more  intelligible. 

I  ran  underHtand  iiiv  leariKil  fi-ieiid  making;  thiH  objection 
the  )ri-oinid  of  MM'ionH  argument  at  the  end  of  the  enquiry, 
but  I  think  at  this  time,  the  ]hiim>i-  nii^ht  be  admitted  foi' 
what  it  is  worth,  and  the  ar^^nment  as  to  the  general  effe««t 
of  Captain  Wan  en's  evidence  considered  when  the  time 
10  comes  for  reachinfj;  a  decision. 

"he  Commissionj'r  on  the  part  of  the  Ignited  States: — 
What  i»art  of  it  do  yon  wish  to  refer  to,  and  for  what  pur- 
jMise? 

Sir  <'.  H.  TiipjK*r: — For  this  purpose,  ri>;ht  or  wrong  as  I 
submit,  in  the  interest  of  the  case,  we  made  this  j)ai>er  tlie 
basis  of  the  examination.  If  we  had  adoi)ted  the  more  lejjal 
circumstance  of  ])roducin};  the  books,  the  proceedings  would 
liave  taken  a  greater  lengtli  of  time.  He  was  examined  on 
the  statement  of  claim  for  tlu'  sake  of  convenience,  he  has 
exjdained  how  it  was  made.  We  could  have  gone  through 
all  the  vai-ious  books,  but  we  thought  it  better  to  save  time  to 
]>ursue  this  course,  and  Mr.  Warren  was  submitted  to  a  reach- 
ing and  searching  crctssexamination  at  the  hands  of  the 
rejut'sentatives  of  the  Tnitcd  States. 

Mr.  Dickinson:—!  will  state  my  views  very  compactly  and 
take  uj)  as  little  time  as  possible.  Tlu'  analogy  is  similar  to 
this:     That  the  claimant  may,  up(Hi  the  trial  of  his  cause, 

S'^  read  his  own  declaration  at  law  or  that  a  complainant,  in 
equity,  may  on  the  hearing  of  a  cause  ivad  his  own  bill  of 
c(miplaint  in  evidence. 

A  more  ai>t  analogy  is,  that  a  ])laintilf  who  has  commenee<1 
his  suit  by  mesn(>  process  of  attachment,  may  read  on  the  trial 
of  the  case  his  affidavit  in  evidence  for  attachment,  or  a 
complainant  in  a  suit  of  e(iuity.  who  has  asked  preliminary 
injunction  and  filed  affidavits,  may,  in  order  to  get  his  pro- 
( ess  of  injunction  i-ead  his  affidavit  on  which  he  obtained  tlie 

40  injiinction  in  the  first  instance.  There  is  no  difference  be- 
twe<'n  the  two. 

Tlu'  ex]>lanati(m  that  time  has  (>la])sed  can  cut  no  figure. 
In  no  cas«>  would  the  affidavit,  or  statement,  of  the  ))laintifT, 
umde  out  of  <ourt.  and  olf  the  stand,  be  received  as  suitabh^ 
and  authentic  testimony  anywhere. 

Next  I  beg  to  suggest  that  the  I'ans  Tribunal  had  no 
power  to  stimmon  witnesses  Iwfore  it,  henc»>  it  ]»assed  upon 
( ertain  great  facts  only.  It  could  find  by  latitude  and  longi- 
tude where  certain  seizures  were  mad«'  on  certain  undisjuited 

50  facts.  It  found  that  the  I'nited  States  <roveniment  in  seiz- 
ing certain  schooners  seized  them  beyond  the  jurisdic- 
tion of  the  (Jovernment  of  the  I'nited  States,  and 
it  found  that  the  owners  ()f  these  vessels  should 
be  compensated  if  they  were  Hritish  subjects.  When 
the  Paris-  Tribuiial  got  to  the  qtu'sticm  of  the  amount 
or  values,  that  Tribunal  said,  we  m\ist  leave  these  (piestions 
as  to  the  amount  of  the  claims,  and  the  (luesticms  of  law  as 
to  the  probable  catch,  and  all  the  matters  that  are  presented 

60  —for  example  in  the  statement  of  J.  I).  Warren— for  further 
neg(»tiation  between  the  rKtvernments.  They  had  no  power 
to  summon  witnesses  or  linten  to  testimony,  and  they  left  it 
f()r  negofiation.-i  between  the  (lovernments.  This  Tonven- 
fi(Mi  is  tlu>  sequel.  The  (ii>venunents  came  together  in  ac- 
cordance with  the  recommendatiims  of  the  Tai-is  Tribunal, 
and  they  saw  that  tliey  could  not  pass  up(m  thes«'  facts  in 
issue.  Then  the  (Jovernments  considered  what  should  be  done. 
TlH'y  decided  that  tlu'y  would  organize  a  coui-t  with  power  to 


959 


lO 


(DiscuMsioii.) 

summtm  witncsm's;  tlioy  dccidt'd  that  tliey  would  send  that 
i-oiirt,  eomiM)«t*d  of  I  he  (\»iiiiiiiHHioiu>i-H  of  both  count  i*i«*8,  to 
the  Bourc**  of  t«'8tinion,v.  and  on  these  quentionH  that  have 
troubled  the  I'arin  Tribunal,  and  aw  to  which  there  was  no 
re«ou<-ilinK  the  dilt'erences  they  waid:  We  will  have  evidence 
taken — authentit  evidence — as  to  them.  They  said,  for  in- 
stanc«'.  on  .1.  1).  Warren's  statement  as  here  juesented,  if  he 
makes  a  claim,  J.  1>.  Warren  may  be  put  upon  the  stand — as  he 
has  l)»*en  juit  here — examined  and  cross-examined,  and  that  is 
what  we  are  here  for. 

The  only  other  i»oint  raised  by  my  learned  friend  is  as  to 
lapse  of  time.  Well,  the  absence  of  time  never  j>ennitted  a 
witness  upon  the  stand  to  put  in  his  testimony  in  chief  any 
document  that  he  had  mad*  himself,  «'xcept  for  the  jnirpose 
of  refresliinj;  his  memory,  and  when  we  come  to  the  argu- 
ment. I  shall  arfjjue  with  great  confidence  that  ('a]>tain 
Warren  upon  the  stand  has  said  that  every  one  of  the  vouch- 
20  ers.  and  all  the  testimony  in  regard  to  the  supplies  contained 
in  this  statement,  are  in  those  books  and  were  drawn  from  his 
books  when  he  jn-epared  that  statement  and  that 
the  books  are  here  in  his  ])ossession  now.  How 
long  would  it  have  taken  to  bring  this  source  of 
fair,  and  competent,  and  suitable  testimony  before  this 
Tribunal?  Warren  could  go  into  the  oltice  of  an  accountant, 
or  into  the  ofllice  of  my  leaiTK'd  friends,  and  could  have,  very 
easily,  made  out  a  statement  from  the  books  before  him.  nj)- 
on  which  he  might  have  refreshed  his  memon'  and  been  cross- 
examined. 

I  submit  that  this  statement  of  his  v  laim  filed  before  the 
Paris  Tribunal,  because  of  the  ditflculties  arising  out  of  it, 
ought  not  to  be  received  by  this  (•<mrt.  Your  Honours  are 
here  to  listen  to  the  testimony  of  the  man  who  filed  that 
statement;  we  have  his  testimony  b«>fore  us.  and  this  slioi;ld 
not  be  offered  as  suitable,  authentic  «'vidence  on  this  issue. 


30 


40 


sO 


60 


Sir  (".  H.  Tupper: — I  wish  to  call  the  attention  of  the  Com- 
mi8si<mers  to  a  i)oint  nuiterial  to  the  observation  of  my  learn- 
ed frii'ud  as  well  as  to  this  motion.  Article  S  of  the  main 
Treaty  provid<'s  as  f(dlows: 

Article: — \'III — The  high  <-ontracting  psirties  having  found 
themselves  unable  to  agiee  upon  a  ref«'i"ence  which  shall  in- 
clude the  question  of  the  liability  of  each  feu-  the  injuries  al- 
leged to  have  been  sustained  by  the  other,  or  by  its  citizens, 
in  coniuM  tion  with  the  claims  presented  and  urged  by  it;  and, 
being  solicitous  that  this  subordinate  (|uestiou  should  n(»t  in- 
terrupt oi-  longer  delay  the  submission  and  dctennination  x>f 
the  main  f|uestions.  do  agree  that  either  may  submit  to  the 
arbitrators  any  question  of  fact  involved  in  said  claims  and 
ask  for  a  finding  thereon,  the  ((uestion  of  the  liability  of 
either  government  upon  the  facts  found  to  be  the  subject  of 
further  negotiation. 

The  (juestion  of  fact  in  regard  to  this  claim  was  the  same 
<l uestion  which  is  now  before  this  high  Commission:  That 
question  (»f  fact  was  submitted,  and  the  arbitrators,  in  regard 
to  that,  found  certain  other  facts,  and  there  was  an  adjourn- 
ment, as  I  say.  over  to  this  investigation.  They  left  it  for 
negotiation  and  that  negotiation  did  take  place.  T  submit 
that  my  argument  is  sound,  that  there  was  an  adjournment 
of  the  enquiry,  practically,  fnmi  Paris  ti»  Victoria. 

That  document  relates  to  this  very  qm-stion  now  before  us. 
I  frankly  state,  in  rejtly  to  my  learn(>d  friend,  that  tlu-  books 
to  which  he  has  referred,  and  which  are  available  to  Mr.  War- 
ren, will  l)e  gone  through  from  cover  to  cover  in  four  <M'  five 
cases  to  follow;      There  is  nothing  on  our  part  to  conceal 


in 

Ik     V 


li 


k 


l^m 


%. 


T'J 


i    .    1.; 


3f';; 


960 

(DiHcuMsiou.) 

about  it.  Ouf  reuson  for  not  takiiiK  whatever  risk  tliere 
inijjht  be  as  to  not  pioduiing  them  in  this  case  relates  to  the 
subject  of  the  piovisioninp  of  tliis  vessel.  We  began  the 
case  with  the  iMiniissiou  that  that  was  in  our  opinion  im- 
material. It  relates  to  a  seconc'  supply  of  iti-ovisions — we 
decided  to  face  that  diffl<'ulty  ii  •eHi»ecti"ve  of  tin-  boctks  or 
anvthinjj  else,  and  we  frankly  admitted  that  the  "Thornt<m" 
,0  was  not  fully  provisioned,  but  arrangements  were  ma'de  bv 
which  she  could  buy  further  provisions  and  have  carried  out, 
effectively,  her  season's  work  had  she  not  biH»n  interfered 
with. 

The  Oommissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty:— It  some- 
times happens  that  matters  of  ju-oof  are  connected  with 
statments  under  oath  in  such  a  wiiy  as  that  the  statements 
under  oath  are  admissible,  not  as  eviden<'e  proper,  but  is  be- 
ing a  part  of  the  acis  or  facts  which  are  necessary  to  be 

2Q  shown.      As,  for  instance,  in  the  case  of  preliminary  proofs 
in  a  claim  under  an  insurance  policy. 

Again  the  treaty  refers  to  certain  claims,  and  it  might  seem 
as  if  it  would  be  open  I0  us  to  take  cognizance  of  what  these 
claims  were,  so  as  to  have  before  us  that  which  the  parties 
to  the  treaty  may  have  had  in  contemplation. 

It  is  another  question,  however,  whether  anything  so  of- 
fered could  be  considered  as  strictly  a  matter  of  substantive 
I)roof.  While  not  laying  down  any  general  rule  covering  all 
cases,  we  think  that  in  the  ju-esent  case,  there  is  no  rt..    tn 

3O  why  Captain  A\'arren  might  not  be  able  to  make  up  his  ac- 
■ounts  now,  substantially,  as  well  as  them.  We  do  not  say 
that,  if  a  case  were  to  arise  where  the  witness  could  not  be 
reached,  or  where  there  were  insuperable  difficulties  in  the 
way  of  his  coming  at  the  facts,  we  might  be  disposed  to  al- 
low such  afllidnvits  to  go  in  as  substantive  proof.  The  pre- 
s«'nt  is  not,  it  app«>ars  to  us,  such  a  <'ase,  and  while  recogniz- 
ing the  weight  of  your  argument,  Sir  Charles,  we  believe,  that 
in  this  case,  we  should  confine  you  to  the  statements  on  oath 
of  Captain  Warren  as  produced  before  us. 


40 


50 


60 


Sir  C.  F.  Tupper: — Am  I  to  understand  that  this  document 
cannot  be  referred  to  when  counsel  are  arguing  on  the  evi- 
dence? 

The  Commissioner  on  th»-  part  of  Her  Majesty: — It  could 
not  be  referred  to  as  proof  of  the  fact. 

Sir  C.  H.  Tapper: — Hut  in  order  to  understand  the  evidence. 
It  was  constantly  referred  to  by  myst'lf,  and  by  my  learned 
friend  ojiposite. 

The  (•ommissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — To  the  ex- 
tent that  the  witness  was  cross-examined  upon  it,  it  becomes 
part  of  tlie  prcMtf  in  this  cas«',  and  to  the  extent  that  anything 
in  it  limits  or  '|ualiflcs  a  jtart  referred  to  in  cross-examina- 
tion— to  that  extent  it  would,  under  the  ordinary  rules,  be 
<'apable  of  being  referred  to. 

Sir  C.  H.  Tui)per: — Then  1  understand  that  while  we  can- 
not rely  upon  what  is  stated  in  the  afllidavit  as  substantive 
proof,  the  examination  of  Mi'.  Warren  may  be  considered  as 
read  in  the  attidavit,  or  the  aitidavit  into  the  evidence,  in  ord- 
er to  follow  that  evidi'ucc.  Otlierwise  I  do  not  exactly  see 
how  the  examination  can  he  understood.  He  was  cross-ex- 
amined at  great  length  upon  that  statement. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  |)art  of  Her  Majesty: — I  think  it 
will  he  found  possible  to  understand  his  evidence  without 
reading  in  the  ailidavit. 


1 


961 

(hiHt-UHHioll.) 

Sir  ('.  H.  Tujtper: — Not  all  of  U,  ttut  the  rt'fcn'iiceH. 

Tht  ComniisHioner  on  tlu'  purt  of  H«'r  Majesty: — W»>  can- 
not now  d«M"idp  on  tlu'  t'Xtcnt  t<t  wliich  connHol  lias  jtoiw  in 
n-oas-cxaniining  (.'ajttain  Warren  on  liia  Htatement.  bnt  to  tlu* 
extent  that  the  witness  has  been  crossexaiiiined  in  reference 
to  tlmt.  to  that  extent  his  statements  are  made  matters  pertin- 
lO   ent  to  this  ease. 


•: 


Sir  r.  H. 
exliibit? 


Tupj)er: — May  that  doeument  not  be  filed  as  an 


The  (Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — We  do  not 
say  anything  to  the  contrary  of  that,  so  far.  I  have  already 
said  that  I  think  the  commissioners  may  look  at  it,  in  order  to 
see  what  is  the  claim  which  really  was  made  by  the  jiarties,  if 
any  question  should  arise  with  reference  to  that.  I  presume 
there  will  be  no  question  that  a  claim  was  made  on  the  i)art  of 
20  Captain  Warren.  If  any  objection  should  arise  in  that  con- 
nection, it  would  be  pertinent  for  us  to  look  at  the  claim  as 
filed. 

8ir  C.  H.  Tapper: — Before  asking  it  to  be  tiled  as  an  exhibit 
1  would  tender  it  in  evidence  on  the  ground  that  it  is  mater- 
ial to  show  the  date  of  tlu>  formal  presentation  of  this  claim 
in  connecti«m  with  the  (]uestion  of  interest. 

The  ("ommissitmer  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — Is  there 
any  (|uestion  as  to  when  the  claim  was  made? 

'°       Mr.  Dickinson: — Not  the  slightest.  Your  Lordship. 


-There  apparently  Ih  not  now,  but  there 


40 


Sir  ('.  H.  Tapper :- 
might  be. 

The  Conjmissioner  on  the  j)art  or  Her  Majesty: — If  it 
is  necessary  to  refer  to  that  claim  for  the  purpose  of  founding 
an  argument  respecting  tlie  claim  for  interest,  I  do  not  sup- 
pose there  would  be  any  objection  at  all  to  your  referring  to 
it. 

Sir  C  H.  Tupper: — May  it  be  filed  now  as  an  exhibit? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  desire  to  suggest  in  this  connection  the 
proposition,  namely,  that  there  is  a  possibility — and  I  hoiHJ 
a  very  remote  possibility — of  this  matter  going  to  the  um- 
pire; if  this  should  be  certified  as  part  of  the  testimony  taken, 
it  would  be  somewhat  confusing. 

The  Conunissioner  on  the  jKirt  of  Her  Majesty: — W;-  think 
that  inasmuch   as  the   Treaty    referred  to  the  claims,  it    is 
50   open  to  the  parties  to  have  i>rought  before  us  the  definite 
claim  that  was  made. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — To  be  sure. 

The  Commissiont'r  o»i  tlie  pai-t  of  Her  Majesty: — And  that 
not  as  a  matt«>r  of  evideni-e,  bnt  as  a  matter  of  [troceeding. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  quite  underatand  your  Lordship's  ruling, 
and,  understanding  it.  I  made  my  suggj'sfion  in  reply  to  the 
IM'oposition  of  Sir  (^iias.  Tupper  to  put  this  in  as  an  exhibit; 
to  that  I  made  the  remarks  I  did  ojtposing  that  moti(m. 

Sir  ('.  H.  Tupper: — That  would  b»'  my  ground  for  asking 
to  file  it  as  an  exhiltit. 

The  Commissioner  on  tlie  part  of  Her  Majesty: — It  might 
be  filed  as  a  separate  exhibit,  but  not  as  an  exhibit  of  mat- 
ters put  in  evidence.  It  might  go  in  as  an  exhibit  under  a 
different  head,  say,  of  claims  filed. 

61 


60 


l!  If  ' 


h  I'l' 


l!a 


W  I 


96a 


h ' 


'% 


|i>:ll 


10 


(DiHcuMmon.) 

Hir  ('.  H.  TupptT: — As  my  h'ariied  fru'iid  says,  we  niuHt  con- 
tfniplate  tlu?  poHHibility  of  au  umpire. 

Tin*  Commismoner  on  tlie  part  of  thi'  Unitt'd  Ktati's:— You 
have  to  contemplate  that  all  alonj?. 

Sir  ('.  H.  Tupper:— That  is  apparent  to  any  mind. 

The  (.'ommisMioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  States:— It  is 
a  lepil  poMsibilKy. 

Sir  V.  H.  Tupper:— Exactly,  and  so  far  as  possible  there 
oujfht  to  be  before  the  mind  of  the  umiiire  what  there  was 
before  the  commiHsioners.  It  is  not  an  unusual  thing  for  the 
uni])ire  to  ait  with  the  original  commissioners  in  these  mat- 
ters. That  has  been  done  heretofore  in  similar  cases.  It 
seems  to  nu'.  therefore,  that  as  long  as  your  Honours,  as  the 
f'ommissiouers  present,  have  not  discarded  this  very  evidence 
as  siil>stantiv(>  evidciice,  and  as  entitled  to  go  on  the  notes; 
20  then,  looking  towards  tlie  possibility  of  these  matters  coming 
de  novo  before  one  who  is  not  sitting  witli  you,  this  docu- 
ment otiglit  to  be  preserved,  and  ought  to  be  in  proper  liands 
for  reference  in  «ase  it  sliould  ultimately  bec«mie  necessary  for 
reference.  Reference  to  it  may  be  necessary  for  the  i)ur- 
pose  of  making  the  evidence  given  intelligible. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — The  )>ro|)osition  has  not  been  nu»de  in  any 
other  case  to  get  a  similar  document  on  the  record  as  bearing 
on  the  issue.  The  statement  of  claim  as  to  the  other  shi]m 
30  were  all  prepared  by  Mr.  Warren,  but  yet  there  was  no  motion 
made  to  have  them  go  on  the  record.  It  is  not  necessary  to 
file  this  to  show  what  the  claim  was.  My  learned  friends 
have  filed  a  declaration  in  their  statement  of  claim  before  this 
Tribunal,  and  it  is  unne<'essary  t<»  supplement  the  claim  they 
have  filed  because,  jiresumedly  they  filed  everything  which 
they  desire  to  state  in  .onnection  with  this  claim.  I  submit 
that  it  is  not  authentic  and  suitable  testimony. 

The  ( ■onimissi<mer  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — My  leani- 
40  ed  colleague  has  mentioned  a  mode  of  dealing  with  this  mat- 
ter. We  have  in  certain  cases  made  reference  to  matters 
which  were  iM'fore  the. Tribunal  at  Paris,  by  mentioning  the 
.Vmerican  reprint  witliout  having  it  i>rinted  as  pari  of  our 
proceedings.     In  this  case  such  courae  might  be  followed. 

Sir  ('.  H.  Tujij^er: — In  examining  Captain  Warren,  in  order 
to  sjive  time,  I  asked  him  to  look  at  this  document  nuirkcd  17 
for  identification  and  tlien  examinwl  him  in  regard  to  certain 
figures  in  that.  The  notes  will  show  the  cross-examination 
50  by  Mr.  Dickinson  who  asked  him:  "Now,  with  reference  to 
this  document  sliown  you.  and  by  counsel  on  the  other  side," 
and  so  on.  I  submit  that  the  evidence  will  not  be  intelli- 
gible unless  this  document  is  ]>ut  in. 

The  Commissiimer  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty:— If  it  were 
used  in  that  way  by  you,  and  if  Mr.  Dickinson  cross-examined 
upon  it  in  the  same  manner,  it  might  be  necessary  to  refer 
to  the  notes  in  extenso  before  we  could  intelligently  deal  with 
it.  I  would  suggest  that  we  wait  until  we  get  the  notes  of 
60  the  proceedings  to-morrow  and  see  if  they  are  not  intelligible. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — In  my  learned  friend's  heroic  struggle  to 
put  Captain  J.  D.  Warren's  statement  on  this  recmd  to  be  re- 
ferred to  by  some  one  as  authentic  testimony,  he  has  stated 
that  I  iM'feri-t'd  to  it  on  cross-examination.  I  did  not  have  it 
in  my  hands,  nor  did  I  s{K>ak  of  it  at  all,  exce])t  in  two  in- 
stances, and  then  I  referred  to  the  .\niericau  Ke-print  and 
iisked  him:     "!)id  you  stay  it  would  cost  |i(>.llttl)  to  get  the 


lO 


963 

(DiHC'UHHion.     \V.  8lfi(rhtliuliuc.) 

'Thorntcm'  off  tlie  btMch  aH  ruft'iTed  to  here,"  und  he  said,  "I 
did."  The  next  (|ueHtioii  whb  a  M|N-(itlc  <|ue8tion  and  ht-  Haid, 
"I  made  such  a  stafciiu'iit,"  and  tliat  ek>Hi>d  ni.v  examination 
in  that  ivspt'ct. 

Sir  ('.  H.  TupiKT:— Tlie  not<'8  will  siiow.  Tliat  in  tlic  recol- 
It'ction  of  ni.v  l»'ani«'d  friend,  lint  ni.v  recollertion  Ih  different 
from  hiH,  nor  would  I  like  to  tw  crosH-exaniined  as  to  it.  If 
my  friend  has  not  cross-examined  on  the  document  my  posi- 
tion is  much  weaker  than  I  thought  it  waw. 


Mr.   Dickinson: — I 
hands  at  all. 


4^ 


5P 


never  took   the  document  out  of  your 


8ir  r.  H.  Tupi»er:— I  would  suHKewt  that  this  matter  may 
wait  until  the  morning'  when  we  see  the  notes. 

The  CommisHiimer  on  the  j>art  of  the  i'nited  States: — 1 
20  wish  to  ask  counsel  a  (piestion:  While  we  are  not  bound  by 
the  strict  rules  of  common  law,  yet  we  are  limited  to  "suita- 
ble authentic  testimony.  As  su.<;j;ested  by  my  learned  col- 
leajjue,  there  mijiht  Ix'  circumstances  under  which  we  would 
admit  a  i)a]ier  like  that ;  cannot  counsel  af;re4>  as  to  this  docu- 
ment? 

Sir  V.  H.  TupjK'r: — It  is  not  w<Mtli  the  snap  of  a  linfjer  so 
far  as  any  statement  in  it  beyond  this  is  concerned.  The  mat- 
ter which  I  considered  of  importance  was,  that  having  used 
JO  that  statement,  wliether  rijjht  or  wroufj,  as  the  basis  of  exam- 
ination, I  thoufrht  it  should  be  <m  the  record  to  explain  the 
evidence.  I  did  not  consider  it  of  any  importance  whetlier 
<1aptain  Warren  swore  this,  that  or  the  other,  but  I  did  con- 
sider of  importance  the  apjiendices  or  exhibits  attached  to 
the  orij!;iual  claim,  and  in  which  the  items  appear. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  jKirt  of  the  I'nited  States: — 
What  consequence  is  it  as  to  what  sort  of  supplies  went  on 
board  the  v«»ssel  when  she  was  furnished? 


Sir  <\  H.  TupiH'r: — Very  li'tle  importance  at  all,  but  the 
statement  of  the  witness  without  these  incidents  in  that  affi- 
davit will  be  exctM-dinfjly  dittlcult  to  understand  or  discuss. 

Tlie  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  Stat«'s: — 
.\s  the  ]mrties  ajjree  substantially  as  to  what  was  aboard  at 
the  time  of  seizure,  what  consequence  is  it  what  provisions 
went  on  board  tlie  vessel  when  she  was  fitted  out? 

Sir  C.  II.  TupiK-r: — I  am  confident  it  will  l»e  so  found.  I 
nmy  inform  my  learned  friend  that  I  was  not  irlyinjj  upon 
what  Captain  Warren  dedari-d  in  the  affidavit,  but  to  the  ex- 
hibits attached  to  that  affidavit  and  (m  which,  for  ironven- 
ience,  I  base  my  examin:ition. 

The  Commis8i«tners  rose  at  Ti  o'clock. 


11 


>'  I! 


II 


*(1 
li 

■  I 

i! 


Oommissioners  under  the  Oonvention  of  February  8,  1896,  between 
60        Great  Britain  and  the  United  btates  of  America. 

Ohambers  of  the  Legislative  Assembly, 

At  Victoria,  December  30,  1896. 


'  1^ 


I  it. 


At  lfl:.'<0  a.am.  the  Commissioners  took  their  seats. 

The  case  of  tlie  "Thornotn"  was  resunied. 

William  Slei^ththolme  was  called  as  a  witness  on  the  part 
of  Great  Britain  and  duly  sworn: 


li  i 


9«4 


!ii 


■'IN' 


'i|::|: 


10 


30 


(WiMiiiiii  HI<>iKlitlioliiu>— Dimt.) 
Dlr«'«'t  «'XHiiiiuatiuii  It.v  Hir  ('.  II.  TiipiMT: 

Q.— What  i8  .vour  aj?**  Mr.  SI«>iglitholiiii>?      A.— «5  Hlr. 

U- — Voii  wt'iv  bom  in  Eii(;laii(l,  I  bflievf?      A. — Ve8,  Hlr. 

t}.— WIm'H  di*l  .voii  Iwive  Kii^land?  A.— I  left  England 
laHt  ill  1H51'. 

<i- — NVIiat  <tC(Mi|>ation  did  .v«mi  follow?  A.— I'wd  to  fol- 
low RoiiiR  to  K»».i  m  8liip  cnriM'iitt*!-  in  tlu*  rarly  days. 

Q.— Th«'n  .von  wvvo  apprtMitiwd  to  tin-  nniK'ntry  trado  tirst? 
A. — Yt'H,  Hir. 

(i.— And  followed  llic  lint'  of  Hliip  carpontrv?  A.— Yes 
Hir.  ■  ' 

*i- — How  long  did  ,von  pro  to  nen  a  a  a  ship  carpenter  ?      A. 

I  tliink  about  seven,  perhaps  eipht  .venra. 

Q.— And  .von  settled  down  in  Vietorin  after  having  follow- 
ed tliat  line  at  sea?  A.— I  made  one  voyage,  after  I  came 
Iiere.  to  Cliinn. 

(i.— About  what  time  did  you  come  to  Victoria?  A.— I 
20  come  to  Victoria  in  18«4. 

(i.— And  what  have  .vou  been  doing  since  then?  A.— 
Worliing  as  a  ship  carpenter. 

Q- — You  have  worlved  upon  schooners  and  vessels  gencral- 
l.v?      A. — .Ml 'kinds  of  vesels. 

(J.— Had  yon  anything  to  do  with  the  "Thornton?"  A.— 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — What  liad  you  to  do  with  her?  A. — I  worked  npon 
her  for  over  20  years,  off  and  on. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  the  time  slie  was  rebuilt?  A. — Yes, 
sir. 

Q. — You  worked  upon  her  tlien?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  the  time  she  was  coppered?  A. — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Had  you  anything  to  do  with  that?  A. — Yes,  sir,  me 
and  Oook  coppered  lier. 

Q. — Wliat  work  did  you  do  on  her  as  well?  A. — After  she 
was  launched  I  worked  around  the  deck  and  fitted  her  cabins 
— fitted  her  for  sea. 

Q. — You  saw  lier  then,  when  she  was  ready  for  sea?  A. — 
Oh,  yes,  sir. 

Q. — Was  that  before  she  had  the  machinery  in  her?  A. — ■ 
That  was  before  she  had  machinery  in  her,  ves,  sir. 

Q. — What  did  ,von  value  her  in  Victoria  before  she  had  her 
machinery  put  in?      .\. — About  ?5,000. 

Tile  Commissioner  on  the  jtart  of  the  I'nited  States: — Hir 
Charles,  liave  yon  any  objection  to  asking  whether  he  means 
value  or  cost?     This  class  of  witnesses,  I  find,  generally  mean 
50   cost  when  they  Hi>y  value. 

(J. — Wlien  you  speak  of  value  do  yon  refer  to  what  it  would 
cost  to  build  a  ship  or  a  sliip  of  her  style?  A. — I  speak  of 
wliat  sl'.e  cost. 

(J. — Well,  that  being  so,  having  regard  to  the  cost  of  work 
at  that  time,  could  you  have  turned  out  a  ship  of  h«'r  style 
and  capacity  for  less  money?  A. — No,  sir,  she  would  cost 
more. 

Q. — What  do  you  mean  by  that?  A. — It  would  have  cost 
more  to  build  lier  comjilete  from  the  beginning  here  than  it 
would  cost  to  rebuild  her  as  he  was  done. 

Q. — What  efTi'ct  had  her  age  ujion  her  at  tlu  time  that  slie 
was  rebuilt?  A. — She  was  very  sound  for  her  age,  her  old 
frame  was  very  strong  ami  hard,  the  natural  <'rooks  were  all 
oak. 

Q. — After  she  had  her  machinery  put  in  her  did  you  work 
on  her?      -V. — Yes,  sir, 


40 


60 


lO 


20 


hvv  fair  viilu(>  would  Ih*  in  tliat 
A. — IVi'liiiim  Honu'tliiiiK  over  17, 


96s 

(WilliHin  HlfiKlilltolinc— Direct— <'ri>8H.) 

Q. — Do  you  n'lueiiilM'i-  tUv  "Tlioruton"  uh  hIm"  HttM»d  iu  1880? 
A. —  Yt'B,  HJr.. 

Q. — Wliat  would  you  say 
year,  inafhiiit'ry  and  all? 
(MM). 

il- — \V«'i'e  you  on  Iht  in  that  yi>ar?      A. — Y»'H,  hIp. 

Q. — On  board  of  her?  A. — WluMiever  tlu'ro  was  anything 
to  do  I  waH  K«'nt'rally  t-allt'd  on  to  d»(  it. 

Q. — Could  you  tell  me,  generally,  the  dem-ription  of  the 
boiler?  A. — I  don't  know  much  about  machinery;  I  don't 
profess  to  know  about  that. 

Q. — What  size  was  it,  do  you  remember?  A. — I  eonldn't 
tell  you  I  fouldn't  say  anytliiug  about  the  machinery. 

(i. — Y«tu  cannot  describe  it?  A. — No,  air,  not  more  than  I 
rtH-ollect  asking  the  man  that  manufactured  it,  I  asked  him 
what  the  value  of  it  was. 

Q. — Where  atiouts  was  the  nuichinery,  did  it  take  up  much 
of  the  ship?      A. — No,  it  didn't  take  uj)  a  great  deal. 

Q. — nave  you  ever  lu'cn  on  tlie  vessel  when  she  was  under 
steam?      A. — Oh,  yes. 

(J.— And  did  her  machinery  work  well?  A.— Oh,  yes,  her 
machinerv  was  first  class  mai'hincrv. 


t!t 


:;  ; 


30 


40 


50 


60 


A. — No,  sir. 
A. — No,  sir, 

A. — Yes,  sir. 
have  done  so 

I  never 


Yes,  sir. 

worked  in  any  other  way.  have 
A. — No,  ««ir.  not  on  tluit  vessel. 
vess«'l  yourself?     A. — No,  sir. 
tlu'  construction  of  a  vj'sm'l?     A. 


rross-examlnation  by  Mr.  Dickinson: 

(j. — I  suppos«>  you  are  a  machines!  as  well? 

(i. — Did  you  «'ver  examine  any  machinery? 
1  don't  know  much  about  it. 

(). — You  do  not  know  any  thing  about  it? 

y. — Whenever  you  have  worked  on  lier,  you 
as  a  lalsuvr,  liave  y«»u  not?     A. — Ship  carjM'nter. 

Q. — Never  as  a  contnictor  or  boss?     A. — No,  sir 
had  n(»  contract  on  her. 

Q. — Hy  day's  work?     A.— 

ii. — And  you  nev«'r  have 
you,  except  by  day's  woik? 

(i. — Did  you  ever  build  a 

(i. — Did  yoji  ever  work  on 
Yes,  sir.  , 

Q. — As  a  day  laborer,  only?    A. — Only. 

Q. — And  did  you  ev«'r  have  anything  to  do  with  the  jdir 
iliase  of  materials  to  put  into  a  vessel?     A. — Only  the  masts. 

Q. — You  have  bought  masts  yours»>lf?     A. — I     have     con 
tracted  for  mailing  masts. 

Q. — Hut  you  never  iturchased  (he  timbers  and  the  neces- 
sary material  (o  build  a  ship?     A. — No.  sir. 

(i. — And  what  is  ycMii*  business  now?  A. — Follow  ship 
carjK'ntering. 

Q. — Y«»u  follow  ship  car])entering  by  liiiy's  work  as  you  al- 
ways have  all  your  lift'?     A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — Of  course  you  luive  never  bought  or  sold  a  ship?  A. — 
No,  sir. 

Q. — And  have  followed  your  work  day  by  day  constantly 
for  many,  many  years?    A. — All  my  life. 

Q. — Working  about  every  day?     A. — Fifty  years. 

Q. — About  every  day  except  Sundays?     A. — Yes.  sir. 

Witness  not  further  examined. 

Sir  C.  H.  Tupper: — I  would  like  to  refer,  if  the  Commission- 
era  please,  to  the  report  of  A.  W.  Lavender,  who  was  As- 
sistant Treasury  Agent  of  the  United  States  Government  to 
the  Chief  Treasury  Agent,  Mar<'h  1!),  1890,  as  to  the  value  of 
the  "Thornton,"  found  at  page  738,  Volume  5,  American  Re- 
Print,  as  follows: 


III 


111 


''il 


It.      I 


20 


30 


(no<Miineiilai'.v  KvUh'iiro.) 

"OiiiialiiHkii,  Miirrli  1»,  IHOO. 
<'<'liarl«'M  J.  OoiT,  Kmi|.,  Cliiff  TrcaHiirv  A^i'iit,  S<>al  iHlainlH. 

"My  Ut'HV  Hir, — I  .-iin  in  receipt  of  yiMirit  of  tliia  date,  nHkiiiK 
iii«>  to  viHit  till*  roiiilfiniK-d  niIiooihth  now  l.vini;  n<>ar  tli<>  IknuI 
of  tliiH  liarltoiir,  and  to  nnikt>  you  a  rciMiit  i\h  Io  Hit*  valiiv  of 
larli  on«'  wlu'n  n«'W,  almi  to  tlif  prownt  condition  and  valuv 
of  t'acli  one  aH  tlicy  now  rtMiinin;  and,  in  reply  U*  Hainc.  I  will 
10  Kay,  tliat  upon  it'cfipi  of  youi-H  of  cvt-n  date,  I  went  at  once 
on  iHNinl  tlio  Htcani  Mtliooiicr  "Tliornton,"  of  N'ictoria,  ItritiHli 
('oluni))ia.  and  found  lit'i-  to  be  a  Hniall  Hteani  Hch<M)n«'i-,  of 
about  45  (<»nK  nicaHurcnicnl,  built  of  Hoft  wood,  nitmtly  Oregon 
]>in<',  her  engines  about  eiglit  lioixe  powet',  lier  lH>ttoni  yellow 
nietalle<l;  all  lier  luniiiiii;  gear  waH  «lown  in  her  liold  among 
iron  ruHt  and  dirty  water,  and  of  no  value  wluitever.  I  did 
not  find  any  sails  on  board,  lier  anchors  and  cliains  are  both 
altaclMHl  t(»  her.  but  are  very  liglit  and  rusty,  most  of  her 
small  spars  are  gone.  I  slumld  lliiiik.  when  new,  that  f7,IM)l) 
would  lie  a  fair  price  for  her,  iiiciiiding  tier  engines  and  all 
otiier  accoutrements  ready  foi'  sea.  Her  present  value  is 
notliing  more  tliaii  lier  old  rigging  and  metal  Mould  sell  for, 
less  fr<'iglit  and  expenses,  and  f2(MI  wiuild  be  n  good  price  for 
her" 

I  w<iuld  like  to  refer  also  to  a  certitlcate  of  tlie  M4'cretary 
of  tlie  Treasury,  dated  July  :«».  lS!t2.  found  in  Volume  2.  .\p- 
INMidi.\  1.  of  tlie  case  of  the  I'nited  States,  pages  lOS  and  lltj), 
as  fol|(»ws: 

"Pursuant  to  section  HH'2  of  tlie  Revised  Statutes.  I  hereby 
certify  tliat  the  annexed  table  is  a  corn-ct  statement  of  the 
vessels  si'i/.ed  in  Deliring  Sea  by  the  offlcers  of  the  Ignited 
States  ]iur8uant  t(»  instructions  of  this  Department. 

"In  witness  whereof.  I  have  hereunto  set  my  hand  and 
caus<'d  the  seal  <if  the  Treasury  Department  to  b<>  atflxed,  on 
the  day  and  year  first  above  written.  Charles  Foster,  Sec- 
retary of  the  Treasury." 

The  reference  (o  tin'  sliii>8  mentioned  by  that  certificate  that 
I  would  like  to  make  is  at  the  top  of  page  Iflfl.  setting  out  the 
nnmlMT  of  vessels  seized  by  the  revenue  steamer  "Corwin," 
Tajitain  V.  A.  Abby,  <-oninianding: 

Date  of  seizure,  nation.'ility,  rig,  name,  latitude  and  longi- 
tude, section  of  Kevised  Statutes  under  which  seized,  num- 
ber of  skins.  The  second  in  that  list  is  the  British  schooner 
"Thornton,"  giving  the  latitude  and  longitude  as  in  the  admis- 
sion and  section  of  Revised  StatmCs  under  which  seized,  1,- 
!).5fi,  and  number  of  .ikins  40.3. 

.Mr.  Dickinson: — May  I  ask  liow  the  report  of  Lavender  got 
50   into  the  British  case? 

Sir  r.  H.  Tujiper:— Sir  Julian  Pauncefote  transmits  to  the 
Mar(|uis  of  Salisbury  an  executive  document  some  jiages  back, 
.'list  Congress.  Second  Sessi«in.  Executive  Document  No.  4!l, 
and  the  whole  of  that  is  printed  from  page  701  on  to  T.'IO. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — We  desire  to  state  tliat  we  will  want  to 
put  in  anything  in  tlie  same  document  that  ({ualities. 

Sir  C.  TT.  Tapper; — The  beginning  of  these  sessional  papers 
60   '"  <'>*^  piiR*'  7t)l  of  Volume  .''»,  ."ilst  Congress. 

I  would  refer  to  Capt.  Abliy's  deposition  for  greater  cer- 
tainty upon  a  jMiint  which  may  not  be  necessary,  but  I  have 
not  had  an  opportunity  to  review  the  evidence.  He  men- 
tions, page  180  Volume  S  in  regard  to  the  seizure  in  his  formal 
dejiosition  here:  "The  'Thornton'  had  on  board  four  rifles 
and  six  shotguns." 

I  am  disaj>pointed  in  the  non-attendance  of  a  witness,  who 
was  actually  here,  and  who  aiTange<1  to  b<»  here,  but  is  not 


40 


ir 


IT 
IK- 
1.- 


flOH 


967 

(.1.  I).  NVaiicii— IHrccL) 

ii<»w  |)i-«'H«-iit — Ml'.  Oi'itlltliH;  iiihI  tliri-c  Ih  auotlHT  witut-HM,  the 
liiH|H'clof  of  Itoih'iM — tlu'  OavoriiiiKMit  inN|HM-t(M' — wlio  Ih  out 
of  town  for  tlii>  morning.  I>iil  will  Im-  Imt*-  in  III*'  iiftiTiioon. 
AIho  Ml'.  lii'WJN,  will)  In  an  elderly  Kentleiiiaii,  ^ave  a  Hiirve.v, 
wliieli  Ik  the  IiihI  Miirvcy  lie  nia<le  on  llie  "Tliornton"  in  \HH'A, 
after  the  time  relerred  to  in  the  evidenee.  M.v  learned  friend 
naturally  iirefern  Ihal  Mr.  i..ewiH  hIioiiKI  be  here  to  |M'odiHe  it, 
..  rather  tliaii  that  I  Hlioiild  prodiiee  it  without  him,  ho  tliat  Mr. 
hewlH  may  he  examined.      lie  eaniiot  he  here  until  afterneon. 

Mr.  DiekinHoii: — I  di-Hire  (.'aptain  Lewin,  beeaune  he  Ih  tin- 
man named  hy  t'aptain  Warren  in  hin  teHtimony  at  Home 
h'liuth. 

Sir  ('.  II.  Tiipper; — Tlie  almeiiee  of  the  witneHHCH  hiiH  iijwet 
a  good  deal  of  tlie  work  I  had  laid  out  for  thiH  morninf;.  A 
Hiin{ieHti<vii  waH  made,  and  a  veiy  fair  one,  by  my  learned 
friend,  that  inntead  of  examining  t'aptain  Warren  over  that 
20  inventory  that  wan  taken,  and  which  Iiiih  bei-n  referred  to,  we 
Hliould  prepare  a  Hiatement,  or  Captain  Warren  nliould,  and 
that  Ik'  Hliould  nwear  t<»  thin  Hiatement  an  to  llie  valiien  that 
he  eoiild  Hpeak  of  the  artielen  found,  and  Hubniit  liimnelf  to 
er(»HH-exaiiiinatioii,  without  taking  him  on  direct  examination 
Item  by  item.  Ho  I  have  pre|iared  with  Captain  Warren  n 
Btutement. 

J.  D.  Warr.a,  u  witneHs  on  the  jtart  of  Oreat  Britain,  was 
recalled. 

3°       Dii-ect  examinatitm  by  Sir  ('.  11.  Tupi>t'r: 

ii. — Captain  Warren  you  produce  tluH  lint  with  the  prices 
oppotiite  am  being  a  Htatemeut  of  the  vulueH  uf  the  articlea 
found  in  th«'  inventoricH  in  the  log  i^murked  Xo.  l(i)  not  prop- 
erly belonging  to  the  ship?     A. — Vch. 

The  list  and  prices  are  as  follows: 

VAUE  (.>F  AUTICLES  IN  INVENTORY  NOT  PROl'EKLY 
40  1JEL0X(J1N(J  TO  Willi's. 

2  Axes    1|  2  00 

1'  naromeleiH    :{0  00 

4  Hoats,  valued  in  evidence  already 
M  Water  Casks,  Ditto. 

4  Moat  Compasses  at  |:{.r>0  14  00 

5  Tons  of  coal,  valued  in  evidt'iice. 

10  Yards  of  <  'anvas,   at   ;'.0c 8  00 

1  Flag  tlJritisii) 12  00 

50       1  Fog  Horn 25  00 

4  Fishing  Lines,  at  50c 2  00 

1  (irind  Stimi- 2  50 

2  Hammers    2  00 

:{  Stone  Water  Jugs '.i  00 

;{  Sheath  Knives  at  50c 1  50 

2  Pigs  Lead 10  00 

120  Fathoms  Manila  Rope.  2^  in .10  00 

;{  Callous  Oil,   Fish    75 

60       7  (Salhms  Coal  Oil    2  50 

10  Pairs  Oars,  at  f2.50 25  W) 

12  I'addles,  at  .''.Oc <i  00 

4  Pairs  Rowlocks 2  00 

20  Salt  (sacks)  at)  00 

1  Stove o<'  <"• 

1  Carpenter's  Square   1  00 

:i  Calico  Shirts 1  f»0 

1  Woolen  Shirt    1  50 


(j 
i 


n 


B 


Hi 


I  'S 


ht 


.\Vh 


968 

(John  W.  (Jrifflths— Direct.) 

2  Sails,  spare,  ahvady  in  evidence. 
:5  Wafer  Tanivs.  Ditlu. 

1  I'air  Overalls    75 

2  Vouiids  Tobacco,  at  «iOc I  20 

5  KoxcK  Kreail,  at  Sfl'.SO 12  50 

450  Pounds  Flour   11   25 

100  Pounds  Rice    4  00 

,Q  100  rounds  Sn«ar  S  00 

42  Packajies  of  Tea  .'l  50 

10  Pounds  of  Coffee   2  50 

2  Paclvajies  Hops   50 

4  Tin   Pi'pper    10 

2  Tins  of  f-ard   2  40 

10  Kolls  of  Butler 5  00 

Spear  P(des   1  0(» 

fi  Pair  SjK'ar  Irons  fi  00 

i  Toil  M.inila  Rope.  ]in..  (iO  pounds 10  80 

20 

.\RTirLES  TAKE.V  FROM  SfHOONER. 

100  Pounds  Flour   f2  50 

25  I'ounds  Rice   I  00 

r.!»  I'ounds  Beans 2  07 

2  Boxes   Bread   5  00 

1(i  Pounds  Pried  Apples 1  !)2 

15  Pounds  Sujrar 1  20 

Mr.  Diilvinson: — I  have  cross-examined  fully  on  tins  sub- 
30  ject  and  have  no  further  cross-examination. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  psirt  of  the  Tnited  States: — I 
understand  that  this  represents  the  value  of  the  proiHTt.v  of 
this  kind  seized  at  the  time  of  "Thornton"  was  seized  so  far 
as  you  have  any  knowledge  about  it. 

Witness: — That  is  it. 

Sir  C.  H.  Tup|K'r: — .\ud.  Captain  Warren,  y<m,  of  course, 
do  not  refer  to  the  fjuns  and  ammunition? 
40 

Witness: — No.  tliev  are  not  in  that  list. 


''Nt 


ii  ' 


so 


John  W.  OrifTiths  was  (ailed  as  a  witness  on  the  part  of 
(Ireat  Britain  and  was  duly  sworn. 

Direct  examination  by  Sir  C.  II.  Tapper: 

ii. — Mr.  Orittilhs,  you  were  connected  with  the  .Mbion  Iron 


A. 


Five  years,  as  near  as  I  can  re- 
\. — Betwe«Mi   the  vears  "7.'?  and 


Works,  for  how  huiji;? 
member. 

(i. — About   what    time? 
•7H. 

ii. — They  carried  on  a  jtretty  «'X<ensive  business  in  N'ic 
toria?  A. — They  carried  (Mi  the  <mly  busin-'ss  for  a  part  of 
that  time,  and  a  large  business  f<M'  all  «>f  thai  time. 

Q. — During  your  time  they  built  the  steamer  Maude  and 
the  Cariboo  Fly  did  Ihey  not?      A. — They  built  the  steamer 
60  .Maude  and  overhauled  and  i-efitted  and  almost   rebuilt  the 
Cariboo  Fly. 

t^. — Did  those  boats  belong  to  the  c(»mpany?  \. — They 
belonged  to  the  company. 

Q. — Vou  repaired  thj'  (Jovernment  steamer  "Douglas.''  or 
the  engines?      .\. — We  did,  and  put  new  boilei-s  in, 

ii. — Do  yoti  remember  what  the  repaii's  to  the  engines  and 
boiler  cost?      .\. — I  remember  approximately  ab(»ut  flO.OOO. 

ii. — Besides  building  vessels,  the  work  of  the  company  was 


969 


lo 


20 


30 


40 


so 


60 


(John  \V.  (Jiiffltlis— Diivct.) 

to  i-ejmii-  eiit;in«'M  and  iK.iK'i-s?  A.— Tlie  «;oiii|)aii.v  did  not 
bnild  v«'8W'l8.  It  wasn't  a  (•onii)any  at  that  time,  it  was  thf 
pi-oiH'ity  of  Mr.  Jowph  Wjnatt.  He  built  thow  vessels  for 
his  own  U8«\ 

(i.— And  then  the  woik  of  the  company  was  to—  A.— Ite- 
imii-  vessels,  the  inaihineiy,  and  also  build  niachineiy. 

^^^V""^'"'*'  ^'""  *^^''''*  ''^'•'"  ""  "'""'■•^  tl'i'  stt'»"»  schcMHier 
"Thornton?"      A.— Yes,  but  it  was  a  lonfj  time  ajjo. 

Q.— You  have  seen  Ium-  engines?      A.— I  have  seen  them. 

Q.— In  those  days  in  ^'i<•to^ia  wei-e  the  wajjes  of  nieehanics 
in  your  line  of  biisiness  hifih?  A.— They  were  not  consider- 
ed high  then. 

Q.— (live  me  an  idea  what  the  company  got  for  the  work 
of  their  men?  A.->Ve  got  |15  a  day  for  blacksmiths  with 
their  lieli)ei-8,  (me  iielper  to  each. 

y.— That  is  what  the  company  f^ot?  A.— That  is  wliat  the 
company  {jot. 

Q— What  did  yon  jjet  for  your  machinists?       A.— 11()  a 

Q.— What  days?      A.— 10  hour  days. 

Q.— What  jKMiod  of  time  is  it  that  vou  refer  to?  A  —I 
think  I  can  safely  refer  to  77  and  '78. 

*'^;~^^'''»^  <lid  .vou  K«'t  for  molders'  work?  A.— Mold.'is' 
work  I  am  not  (,iiite  suiv  of;  but  the  casfings  for  moldini; 
IS  all  arranfjed  a.cordinjr  to  the  size  aixl  simplicitv  (►f  th<' 
inolds,  castings  arran>;ed  in  value  fnun  (i  to  V2\  cents  for 
ir<m  castings,  and  .50  to  75  cents  for  bniss  castings 

(i.— Hy  the  pound?       A.— Ity  the  (Kmnd. 

Q  — What  did  you  get  for  pattern  makers  a  dav' 
J'attern  makers  were  !fs  a  day. 

,  Q— When  was  that  work  on  the  "Oouglas"  done'        v 
.  wouldn't  1h>  i>ositive.  but  I  think  it  was  don.>  in  '7«  or  '77! 

•  *^w^)wl'f  '*'''''.'  ''''''*  "'"*  •*''•'•        -^•— «»><*  was  a   vessel  "of 
about  (iOO  tons,  I  think. 

Q— Vou  have  been  on  the  "Thornt<m,"  v(ui  know 
chinery.  Have  you  been  on  her  when  she' was  uudei 
A. — \o.  sir. 

(i.— Only  when  she  was  lyinir  idle?  A.-When  sh<'  has 
Ix'^Mi  alongside  the  dock. 

Q.— What  would  it  have  cost  in  the  time  vou  are  familiar 
with  in  Victoria  to  Iimvc  jmf  in  an  engine  and  boiler  similar 
to  that  in  t!,e  <'Tnoii.,on"  in  a  s.hooner  of  lier  size— about 
what?  A.— Well,  i«  would  be  pretty  ditli.ult  to  pass  an 
opinion  after  this  time. 

Q.— You   mean  .in  accurate  tender  or  bid.  but   I  mean   ft> 
give  your  fair  opinicm.  what<>ver  it  is?       A.— Well    from  .1 
to  14000  to  build  th.'  MiiM  hiiieiy  and  put  it  in  running  order 
repair  tlie  v<-s«cl,  put  'ler  bunk.'rs  in,  and  pn'par«'  for  sea. 

Q.— Did  you  see  the  "Thornton"  in  ISStJ?  A  —Well  I 
wouldn't  be  positive. 

Q.— Did  you  see  her  in  IMS")?  A —I  .ouldn't  be  positive 
I  have  seen.  1  think,  all  the  schcHuiers  at  ditf.M-ent  times  from 
the  time  they  were  built  to  the  pr.sent  time;  but  I  nev<'r  took 
any  ]mi-ticular  notice  of  them. 

(J.— Did  you  know  the  scho<m«>r  well  en.niL'li  to  irin.  nn 
o])inion 


A.— 


A. 


her  ma- 
steam? 


as  schooners  w«'nt  in  this  port 
was    generally    understood    in 


at  that  time?      A.— Well,  it 
those  times  tliat  scliooners  cost 

The    Pcmimissioner    on    the    pail    of   the   Tnited   States: 
rieas<>  answer  tlie  (pn-stion.  t'-en  we  will  not  get  confused! 

Question  n'pcate  .\. — No. 


I  i 


I    I 

I!      I 


i:  I' 


A.— Well,    I 


20 


30 


970 

(John  W.  Oiifliths— (YoHs.) 
Cioss-cxaiiiiiialion  by  Air.  Dickinson: 

Q. — \Vh«'n   were  you   on  tlie  "Thornton?" 
couldn't  tell  you  the  exact  time,  or  the  year. 

Q.— Was  it  before  or  after  slie  had  steam  auxiliarv?  A  — 
It  was  after  slje  had  steam  in. 

Q.— What  was  your  business  on  her  at  that  time''       \  -- 
,Q  (asually  aboard  of  her,  as  I  have  been  aboard  of  all  of  them 

Q.-Just  a  matter  of  hMsure'/      A.-A  matter  of  leisure. 

H.—yo  business'/      A.— No,  sir. 

*^;~^\ '""•^'  ''"^■^*  •"'^'"  "^♦'''  twenty  years  ago,' or  how  long 
ago.  A.— It  may  have  been  any  time  since  she  was  built— 
eiffht  years  ajro,  seven  years  ago,  six  years  ago;  I  couldn't 
tell  you.       I  linow  I  have  been  aboard  of  her  oni;e  or  twice. 

Q. — How  lonp;  did  y<»u  stay  on  the.s*'  wcasions?  A.— Ohj 
fnmi  half  an  hour  t<t  an  hour,  jjerhaps;  ten  minutes,  perhaps! 

Q. — Did  you  look  at  her  engines'/      A. — I  have  seen  them. 

Ci.— What  liorse  itr.wer'/  A.— I  couldn't  tell  you  that;  rhev 
are  small  engines  placed  on  board  these  vessels. 

Q. — Did  you  examine  it  to  see  whose  make  it  was?  A.— 
No,  sir. 

Q- — Of  how  if  was  made?      A. — No,  sir. 
Q.— Did  you  examine  the  boilers?       A.— No,  sir;  I  know 
pretty  nearly  how  those  boilers  are  made. 

(i.— Do  you  know  the  size  of  the  cylinder?  A.— No,  I 
couldn't  tell  you  the  exact  size  of  the  cylinder. 

Q- — Can  you  about?      A. — Yes. 

Q.— Let  us  have  it?  A.— She  might  have  a  cylinder  with 
an  S  inch  stroke;  she  might  have  an  8  by  S  cylinder  or  a  (i  by 
12  cylinder. 

Q.— And  about  the  size  of  the  boiler?  A.— The  size  of  the 
boiler — 

Q.— Hhe  "might  have,"  you  say.  You  are  not  swearing 
from  any  recollection?  A.— How  can  a  man  swear  positive- 
ly from  any  recollection? 

y. — Are  you  swearing  from  recollection?  A. — Swearing 
from  recollection. 

Q. — You  said  she  might  have.  We  are  trying  to  get  at 
if  you  can  tell  from  your  recollection  and  your  judgment. 
We  do  not  want  possibilities  or  what  might  be.  Now  do 
you  have  a  recollection  so  that  you  can  state  from  your  judg- 
ment the  size  of  these  things,  or  do  you  simply  think  she 
might  have  bec.-ause  of  the  general  condition  of  the  vessel 
and  her  appearance?      A. — That  is  the  way. 

Q. — You  do  not  fix  it   from  the  examination  you  made  at 
the  time?       A.--X(). 
50        Q. — On  the  basis  on  which  you  have  stated  your  testimony, 
about  what  size  of  engine  would  you  estimate,  by  power?  A. 
— Well,  she  might  have  a  four  horse  or  five  horse  jiower. 

Q. — And  about  wliat  size  cylinder?  A. — Well,  a  «!  inch 
cylinder,   ll!  inch  ctioke. 

Q. — I  siippose  those  engines  can  be  bought  ready  nuide? 
A. — Very  cheajtly  now. 

Q. — Then  also?      A. — Then;  I  c(mldn't  be  jutsitive.  I  never 
saw  any  of  them. 
(5q       Q. — You  knew  they  wen-  for  sale  in  the  trade?      A. — We 
didn't  keej)  any. 

Q.— The  Albion  Iron  Works  did  not?      A.— No. 

Q. — Hut  there  were  other  pla<'es  where  such  things  could 
be  bought?      A. — Not  in  Victoria. 

Q. — And  do  you  know  :iny  other  place  in  the  Doniinioi  i  f 
f'anada  where  tiiey  cou'd  bi'  bought?  A.— Yes,  posslb1.>  '11 
the  east,  in  Ontario. 

Q.— .\ny  place  on  the  const?      .\.— No,  sir. 


40 


971 


lo 


20 


30 


(John  \V.  (Jiittitlis— Orosa.) 

d..?:7^T  '^'v  ""'•  '"'"''■  "'  ""•>■  I''"^«  ""  f'"'  <'""«f  i»  those 
ci.i^sr      A. — No,  sir. 

Q.-\Vlii.t  wm  your  bnsint-ss  in  the  Albi„n  I,„n  Woikn? 
'*• — I  was  bookkeeper. 
*i~^^'t''«'  yo"  a  machinist  at  all?      A.— No  sir 
Q.— Xot  a  mechanic?      A.— Not  a  medianic". 
(i.— Never  had  anything  to  do  with  the  construction   of 

l«M>Kin;,'  after  tlie  men  to  see  wliat  work  tliev  were  on. 

Q.— \oHr  business  in  connection  with  the  matter  hail  notli- 
inf;  to  do  with  tlie  practical  department?      A.— Not  at  nil 
sir.  '    ' 

..  ^T T""  "'*''■*'  '•'*^  assisnee  of  Captain  Warren,  I  think— 
the  claimant?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— And  the  title  of  this  ship  is  in  you? 

Sir  C.  H.  Tupper:— That  is  hardly  a  question  for  the  wit- 
ness. 

Q— You  never  passed  it  away  from  voii?  A.— The  title 
ot  the  ship  was  in  me. 

<i.— You  never  passed  it  from  you  by  any  sale  or  ccmvev- 
m"-' I  .  '^■-^*''  *";■■■  ""*  ^'"'t  I  l<n(.w  of.  Wait  a  minute;'l 
tion  *""*''*''■  ^''"*  ^l"«'st*o"  W(nild  require  some  explana- 

Q.— If  it  takes  us  into  (he  IKifjalion  we  will  not  have  it 
unless  the  other  side  wants  it.  A.— I  will  simply  sav  that 
my  pos'ition  as  assignee  of  that  estate  was  a  formal  one,  and 
It  did  not  Kive  me  enough  interest  in  it  to  look  very  mu.  h 
into  the  details. 

Q.— The  Albicm  Ii-on  Works  were  creditors  of  Warren  I 
8upiH.8e?  A.— They  had  b«-en  crwlitors,  I  am  not  sure 
whether  they  were  at  that  time  or  not. 

Q.— I>o  you  know  what  led  t<.  ycmr  selection  as  assiffuee'' 
Sort  of  a  friendly  ari-.infj«'meiit.  was  it,  an  act  of  friendship 
to  accept  It?  A.-I  think  it  was  Kiven  to  me  because  thev 
thought  I  c<mld  c«uidu<t  it  as  well  as  anvbodv  else.  I  d(m't 
40  know  as  then'  was  any  fiiendsliip  connected  with  it-  I  never 
realized  very  much  out  c.f  it;  I  don't  know  as  it  was  an  act  of 
fnendship. 

Q.— You  speak  of  "they?"  Who  were  they?  Who  irot 
yon  to  take  it?  A.-I  think  I  was  called  on  bV  the  directors 
am  creditors.  At  a  m.x'tin}.  of  the  creditors  I  think  tlu'v 
.ailed  me.  I  think  I  can  remember  who  was  i.resent.  anil 
J  (hink  they  sent  for  me  at  my  place  of  business  to  call  there- 
i>    !J  a  lonfj  time  ago.  ' 

i^.— Who  did  y(tu  mean  by  the  directors?  .\  — Perliai>s  I 
had  oetter  not  say  directors;  [  don't  remember  (hat  thev 
were  directors 

Q- — ^^'lo  had  y-u  in  mind  when  you  said  directors?     .\. 

I  had  no  one  in  particular. 

Q. — Did  Afr.  Warren  want  you  to  take  it?  A.— Mr.  War- 
ren wjis  there. 

Q.— You  said  a  moment  aj-o  it  was  formal.  T  was  trying-' 
to  v'»'t  at  whai  yon  meant  by  that?  A.— I  mean  bv  that  it 
was  a  positi.m  like  a  fljrurehead;  it  was  of  very  little  use  to 
anybody;  the  business  was  outside  of  me  alto<;ether. 

Q. — .\nd  you  were  a  sort  of  perfnnctorv  lluuivhead-  is  that 
it?        v.— Yes. 

Q. — Did  Joseph  Hoscowitz  nsk  you  to  serve?  A.— 1  don't 
remember  that  he  did. 

Q. — Did  yon  tharter  the  vessels  after  yini  were  made  ns- 
sljrnee  to  Boscowitsi? 

Sir  r.  IT.  Tapper:  -I  think  if  my  learn-d  friend  is  poiup 
into  that  part  of  the  case  It  is  hardly  repulnr  to  put  the  ques- 


50 


60 


J: ' 


|l!::!|||i;i 


■ill,,. 


972 
(John  W.  CSi-iHIthH— <"roHS-R«»-(lirect.) 


lion  to  this  witness  in  tlmt  way. 
best  evidence. 


The  charter  would  be  the 


Mr.  Dickinson: — As  a  matter  of  fact.  I  am  not  k">i>K  to 
prove  a  charter  as  a  part  of  my  cross-examination. 

Tlie  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — He 
is  asldng  ti  simple  fact.      If  tlie  witness  says  no,  that  is  the 
10  end  of  it;  but  if  he  says  yes,  perhaps  lie  cannot  go  any  fur- 
ther witliout  calling  for  the  papers. 

Sir  V.  H.  Tupper: — I  would  like  my  objection  recorded  to 
the  (luestion  as  put. 

Witness: — It  is  a  long  way  back,  sir,  and  it  is  a  matter 
that  I  want  to  be  sure  about.  I  don't  want  to  be  doubled 
up,  as  it  were. 

The  Commissioner  on  tlie  part  of  the  United  States; — My 
20    learned  associate  thinks,  and  I  agree  with  him,  that  the  ques- 
tion sliould  be  M.nited  to  tlie  simple  fact  whether  he  char- 
tered the  vesst  1  j 

Mr.  Dickinson: —  ^  your  Honour  rule  that  on  examina- 
tion of  the  witness  a,  to  his  interest  I  cannot  ask  whether 
he  made  a  diarter,  and  cannot  ask  as  to  whom  he  made  it? 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  Tnited  States: — It  is 
rather  our  o]»ini<m  that  you  cannot. 

30  The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — You  could 
ask  whether  Mr.  Hoscowitz  used  tlie  vessel  conseipient  upon 
a  charter;  y«»u  can  get  it  out  in  a  roundabout  way. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  tlrnk  we  will  leave  it  there. 
Re-direct  examination  by  Sir  C.  H.  Tupper: 

(J. — Mr.  Oritliths,  had  you  anything  personally  to  do  with 
the  "Thornton"  yourself?      A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  ever  have  her  in  your  actual  possession?  A. 
'^     — No,  sir,  I  can't  say  that  I  liave. 

Q, — Did  you  ever  manage  her  business  or  botlier  yourself 
with  her  business  or  accounts?      A. — No,  I  never  did. 

Q. — You  know  nothing  about  her  business?  A. — I  know 
nothing  about  her  business. 

Q. — From  (lie  time  you  were  assignee  down?  A. — From 
tlu'  time  I  was  assignee  down. 

Q. — You  remember  a  me<'liug  of  creditors  that  Mr.  Warren 
met?      A. — Yes. 

Q.— And  that  afterwards  you  were  asked  to  act  as  assigne*'? 
A.— Yes,  sir;  I  believe  1  was  called  on  at  that  meeting.  That 
is  my  recollection;  that  they  called  at  my  place  of  business. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  Cnited  States: — Mr. 
Dickinson,  upon  further  refiecti(»n  we  are  of  tlie  opinion  that 
you  may  ask  tlie  mere  fact  whether  or  not  he  chartered  to 
Mr.  Uoscowitz.  just  as  you  jiut  the  question. 

Re-cross-examination  by  Mr.  Dickinson: 

60  Q- — Will  you  please  state,  Mr.  (Jrifflths,  whether  you  char- 
tered the  schooner  "Thornton"  and  others  to  Mr.  Boscowitz 
as  assign«H'?      A. — Not  as  assignee. 

Q. — Did  you  <']iarter  her?      A. — I  did  not. 

Q. — Who  did;  what  do  you  know  about  it?  A. — I  only 
know  that  I  have  seen  with  the  jiapers  a  written  out  charter 
party. 

Q. — To  whom?      A. — To  Joseph  Roscowitz. 

Q. — Did  you  not  sign  it?      A. — I  can't  remember. 


SO 


to 


c/;3 

(John  W.  OiiflitliH— Kt'cross— Kf-dii-ect.) 
g.— But  it  was  iiftiT  tlic  assignment?      A.— Well    ves-  1 
(onldn  t— ves,  it  must  have  been  after  the  assignment/     ' 

Direct  examination  resumed  b.v  Hir  V.  U.  Tupper: 

de?dT**'\  ''''i^'''^'.  '^"  3»»  reeolleet  Mr.  Hett,  lawyer,  now 
Ueart;      A. —  1  es,  sir. 

Q.-n«   drew   th<w  papers,  I  suppose,  ihat  you  refer  to? 

TT    .t'     ^'""''  '"'  *'"^=  I  ^'""'^  '>i'  ««s  tlie  hiwver. 
fe2;:;7fZ!f.''""/"!  ^^    ^loinment    that  Mr.  Dickinson  re- 
fen  ed  to-the  charter?      A. -I  don't  linow.      I  haven't  the 
papers  m  m.v  jwssession;  all  tlie  papers  were  in  the  office  of 
tile  company. 

n~!v-,r"  'T'^  ^^'■-  ^^*'"'*  handwriting?  A.-Yes,  sir. 
rrh.  ."/"'!  }°*'^  "*  ♦*'»^  P«P«'i'  «nd  «ee  if  that  is  Mr. 
Hett  8  liandwr.iing?  A.-(Examining)-Ye8,  and  I  remem- 
ber  seeing  this  or  a  similar  document. 
2o  ^  Q— That  is  his  liandwriting?  A.— Yes,  that  is  that  char- 
ter party. 

Taper  received  and  marked  No.  19  for  identification. 

*i?'V^\^''''J'^  ?^'-  ^''^^  •*•*''  <^«  y«»  J^now;  about  what 
time.'    A.— Some  two  or  three  vears  after,  I  think 

Q.— Have  you  hunted  at  all  for  this  charter  pa'rtv''    A  — 
No,  sir.  *^ 

Q.— You  do  not  know  whether  you  ever  had  it  in  voiir  pos- 

,o  !Z'"°  ~'  "'*'■'''  ^'""^  ""'''  «^  <•"•  P«P«^''8  in  inV  posses- 

Examination  closed. 

Ml  Gufflths  that  I  was  disappointed  in  connection  with  two 
witnesses,  and  I  would  like  to  have  it  understood,  and  to  have 
the  permission  of  the  Commi.ssioners  as  well,  that  I  mav  later 
on  call  Mr.  Norman,  (he  mate  of  the  vessel.  We  have  been 
doing  all  Ml  our  power  to  obtain  his  attendan<'e.  We  believe 
40  now  we  have  found  his  addnss.  and  at  any  rate  have  sent  a 
subpoena  for  him  to  attend,  but  exactly  when  he  will  be  here 
it  IS  impossible  (o  say. 

I  would  like  to  transfer  the  evidence  in  the  case  of  the 
'Onward,"  except  so  far  as  it  is  obviously  inapplicable,  to 
this  case  of  the  "Thornton."  as  was  done  in  the  case  of  the 
"Carolena."      I  suppose  my  learned  friend  wishes  the  cross- 
examination  transferred  in  a  similar  way? 

Mr.  Dickinson: — Oh,  yes. 

5°       Sir  C.  H.  Tupper:— I  desire  to  transfer  also  the  general 
«vidence  as  to  catch,  except  so  far  as  it  is  obviously  inappli- 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States— If 
.Vou  transfer  into  this  case  all  the  testimony  transferred  into 
the  "Onward"  cam-  from  the  "t'arolena,"  does  not  that  cover 
everything  there  is  in  the  "Carolena"  case? 

Sir  (.'.  H.  Tapper:- It  may,  but  for    greater    certainty  I 
°"   would  like  the  record  to  show  that  I  formally  tendered"  all 
that  evidence. 

The  rommissioiier  on  the  part  of  the  T'nited  States:— Do 
you  not  want  to  transfer  that  of  tlit>  six  witnesses,  and  also 
that  abont  values  and  other  things? 

Sir  V.  H.  Tupper:— Yes,  and  I  think  these  three  transfers 
will  cover  everything,  because  they  were  as  to  the  catch  and 


J 


1  ill 


;  1 

ft 

t   1 

«       H 

^       f 

' 

i 

;; 

"i 

^ 

i 

i 

^^ 

If: 
1*1 


I 


a : . 


to 


20 


30 


974 
(Hubeit  J.  Cook— Direct.) 

sejil  life,  and  llieir  evidence  was  taken  under  tlie  head  of 
eatelj.  To  be  tliorouyhly  sure,  I  will  add  that  I  deBire  to 
transfer  all  the  evidente  from  the  experts  touching  the  catch, 
and  the  shootin;;  of  seals,  into  this  case.  From  the  record, 
which  has  already  been  referred  to.  the  otti<-ial  papers  trans- 
mitted by  the  (lovernnient  of  the  United  States  to  the  Gov- 
ernment of  (treat  Britain,  I  desire  to  read  into  the  notes 
short  extracts  from  that  correspondence,  as  follows: 

"Ounalaska,  Friday.  August  l.'Jth,  1H86. 
"Engaged  taking  inventory  of  ]»roperty  on  schooner 
"Thornton."  Unbent  sails,  unrove  running  gear  of  schooner 
and  stowed  them  below.  Removed  40:{  fur  seal  skins,  three 
pup  skins,  and  one  hair  seal  skin  from  her  and  stowed  them 
in  Kench  &  ('ompany's  warehouse,  and  sealed  them  up.  Se- 
cured the  boats  of  captured  schooners  on  8hor»\  near  astro- 
nomical station,  above  high  water  mark." 

"September  10,  1886. 
"At  the  joint  request  of  Governor  A.  I*.  Swineford  and 
•Tudge  T.a  Fayette  Dawson.  U.  S.  District  Court  of  Alaska,  20 
Hr.  Indians  from  Xanaimo,  H.  C,  !)  white  men.  and  one  Chi- 
namen for  l'(U't  Townsend,  W.  T.,  were  received  on  board, 
tlu'v  being  parts  of  the  crews  of  the  schooners  "Onward," 
"San  Diego"  and  "Thornton,"  left  In  destitute  circumstance**, 
there  being  no  employment  for  them  in  the  region.  The 
United  States  Marshal  furnished  the  necessary  provisions." 

The  above  are  extrat-ts  from  the  correspondence  between 
the  I'nited  States  Government  and  their  seizing  oflBcers. 


I  fii 


40 


5  J 


60 


Claims  No.  0,  "Say ward;"  No.  7,  "Anna  Beck;"  No.  9,  "Dol- 
phin," and  No.  10,  "Grace,"  taken  up. 

Mr.  Peters: — It  is  proposed  by  counsel  on  both  sides  that 
the  other  cases  known  as  the  AVarren  cases  in  the  year  1S87, 
the  vessels  all  being  owneil  by  the  same  owner,  and  the  same 
fpiestions  probably  a>-ising  as  to  the  whole  of  them,  shall  bt> 
tried  together.  This  will  materialy  sh«»rten  the  matter.  The 
cases  are  the  ".\niui  Beck,"  tlie  "Grace,"  the  "Dolphin."  and 
"Say ward."  Thost-  four  cases  it  is  proposed  to  try  together, 
and  T  will  now  proceed  to  take  sonu'  evidence  with  regard  to 
the  value  of  these  ditlereiit  shijts. 

Hubert  J.  Cook  was  recalled  as  a  witness  on  the  part  of 
Great  Britain. 

Mr.  Peters: — •  transfer  into  these  cases  all  th«>  eviden<"c  ef 
this  witness  taken  in  the  "Carolena"  case  and  subse<|uently, 
except  where  it  is  obviously  ina]>plicable;  also  tlu  cross  ex- 
aniinati(Mi  and  re-exai'.iinati<m. 

Direct  examination  by  -Mr.  Peters: 

Q. — .Mr.  «'ook,  do  you  know  the  schooner  "Anna  Beck?" 
A. — Y«'s,  sir. 

Q. — Now,  Mr.  Cook,  you  have  your  little  bo(»k  here?  I 
want  to  siH'  how  often  (his  "Anna  Beck"  was  on  your  slip. 
Was  she  on  in  18":??  .\.— (Examining.)  October  ;$lst,  187;{, 
that  is  the  day  she  was  launched. 

Q. — There  is  a  leaf  of  your  book  gone,  and  yitu  cannot  tell 
the  date  when  she  went  on?      A. — I  cannot. 


I 


97, 


(H'lbiMt  J.  Cook— iJiiet't.) 

y.— Tiiininf,'  to  the  next  your,  1874,  do  you  find  her  on  there 
went  on  yoiii-  slip  when?  A.— (Exuiuininir)  Febiuarv  lOtb' 
eanie  off  Febuiiiy  24lh. 

y.— 1S75.  24th  of  Augiiat.  tame  off  when?  A —Came  off 
.'UMh  of  August, 

Q.— 1S7(5.  Was  she  on  your  slip  that  year?  A.— 80th  of 
>Se|>teniber. 

lO       Q.— When  did  slie  tome  otT?      A.— Oetober  2nd 
Q— 1S77?      A.— October  2!)tb  to  November  1st.' 
Q.— 1878?      A.— July  18tli  to  August  12tli 
(i-lS7!)?      A.— July  2(ith  to  Julv  30th.  " 
Q.-18S0?       A.-July  17th  to  December  Oth. 
^^~^^aH  anyiliing  i.artioular  done  to  her  in  that  vear  to 
your  remembran<e?      A.-That  was  the  time  that  I  put  Lew 

rSv  for  '.  T  'T''  '""'  '"''■  ^"'''  ^'"""^  «"^  and  made  heT 
le.un  Tor  a  steamboat. 

Q.— Was  steam  put  into  her  that  year?  A.— Well  steam 
20    (ould  not  have  been  in  her.  ' 

Q.-Was  it  put  into  lier  about  that  time,  or  that  time? 

77   ?n  "*''"■■*'  •*'"'  was  on  the  wavs,  of  course. 

y.— Phis  was  December  9th  that  was  the  dav  she  came  off 
was  steam  put  into  her  shortly  after  that?  A.— Yes-  I  had 
nothing  to  do  with  that.  '        ^'^ 

/i— You  simply  prepared  her  for  putting  steam  in?  \  — 
All  ready  for  putting  steam  in. 

g.— Xow,  look  at  1881,  2(»th  of  September.  To  when'  V  — 
(Examining.)  September  2yth.  I  think  that  must  be  to  put 
J"   on  her  propeller,  ^ 

.,'-~T'i"^  ^*''"'^  shows  (hat  that  vessel  was  on  vour  ways 
those  oiifeient  years  on  the  dates  you  have  mentioned?  A.— 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— And  that  in  the  year  1880  she  was  litted  for  steam? 
A. — Yea.  sir 

Q.— Do  you  know  anything  about  what  sort  of  a  vessel  the 
"Anna  Beck"  was?      A.— She  was  a  very  solid  little  vessel. 

Q.— What  was  she  built  of?      A.— Natural  crooks. 
'^°       Q.— What  kind  of  wood?      A.— Oregon  pine. 

Q.— How  was  she  for  being  kept  in  repair,  was  she  kei)t  in 
good  repair  or  not  ?  A  —Kept  in  very  good,  what  I  could  see 
of  her.  Of  course  I  knew  her  by  having  to  open  her,  taking 
out  old  stern  jtosts,  and  old  dead  wood.  I  found  every- 
thing very  solid  around  there. 

Q — .Vi  that  time  she  was  solid?  A. — She  was  solid  there, 
and  she  looked  to  be  Holid  every  part  that  I  seen  of  her. 

Q. — Did  you  (xamine  her  thoroughly?  A. — Well  to  ex- 
50  amine  a  vessel  thoroughly,  to  give  a  real  gottd  judgment  of 
what  a  vessel  is  like  she  has  g<tt  to  be  bored,  her  beam  ends 
and  everything  else;  a  luiin  can't  go  aboard  of  a  vessel  and 
say  she  is  worth  so  much.  He  can  form  a  good  opinion  of 
what  he  sees. 

Q- — And  what  was  yowi  opinion?  A. — My  opinion  was  of 
her  that  she  was  a  very  go(»d  little  vessel,  she  had  three  inch 
planking  on  her, 

Q. — What  was  her  plank?     A. — Oregon  pine. 
gQ       <i. — She  was  all  Oregon  pine?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Now.  does  the  evidence  that  you  have  given  with  re- 
gard to  the  cosi  of  building  this  class  of  vessels  ai)ply  to  the 
"Anna  Keck."  Did  she  cost  as  much  as  the  other  vessels 
you  have  described  in  your  other  evidence,  as  much  per  ton 
as  you  have  given  for  the  other  vessels?  \. — In  the  first 
ccmrse  of  v«'ssels? 

Q, — You  gave  evidence  with  regard  to  the  c<»8t  of  building 
vessels  of  this  description.      Would  she  have  cost  the  same 


fl 


|i 


^  ii 


976 


lO 


20 


30 


(Lliibt'ii  ,1.  Cook — IHroft — Cross.) 

as  3011  havi'  described  for  vessels  of  this  deseription?  A. — 
Ves,  slu>  would  at  about  that  time. 

ti. — That  '8  the  last  time  yon  had  her  ou  your  slip,  1881? 
A.— 1881  is  the  last  I  see  of  her. 

Q. — Was  she  ou  otiier  slips  afterwards?  A. — Yes,  she  was 
hauled  up  after  that. 

(J. — ()n  what  slips?    A. — On  liainji's  ways. 

<i. — More  than  once?  A. — I  couldn't  say;  she  was  up 
theit*  more  than  once  after  she  had  been  burned,  put  new  toji 
sides  on  her. 

Q. — Did  you  see  that  done?  A. — I  was  not  in  the  yard  at 
the  time. 

Q. — Did  you  see  iier  being  repaired  at  Laing's?  A. — Oh. 
yes. 

Q. — You  say  she  was  burned,  or  ])artly  btirned?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — And  at  that  time  she  had  new  toj)  sides  put  on?  A. — 
Yes. 

Q. — Any  tiling  else  new?  A. — I  didn't  take  any  particular 
notice. 

Q. — You  were  not  about  the  job  at  all?  A. — I  had  nothing 
to  do  with  the  job  whatever.      She  had  new  decks,  I  guess. 

Q. — Do  you  remember  when  you  saw  this  vessel  last?  A. — 
As  near  as  I  can  remember  it  must  have  been  about  1885  or 
1880.  something  about  that,  188fi,  I  think. 

Q .—When  you  saw  her  in  1885  or  1880,  generally  speaking 
she  was  in  good  condition,  was  sh(>?  A. — She  was  in  good 
condition,  because  she  went  through  a  thorough  overhauling. 

Q. — How  long  before  1885  or  1880  had  she  gone  through 
this  thorough  overhauling  that  you  speak  of?  A. — I  do  not 
understand. 

Q. — Do  y<m  i-emember  the  date  that  she  was  thoroughly 
overhauled?     A. — I  do  not  remember  exactly. 


r.i 


'Wif 


lilt 


40 


5^^ 


60 


Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Warren: 

Q. — When  you  say  you  had  this  boat  on  your  ways,  Mr. 
Cook,  do  you  mean  that  she  was  hauled  up  every  time  you 
mention?    A. — Every  time. 

(J.— Hauled  ont?    A.— Yes. 

Q.— And  she  was  haled  out  last  in  1881?  A.— 1881  is  the 
last  record  I  have  of  her  here. 

(J. — What  you  did  to  her  then  was  (o  i)repare  her  for  re- 
ceiving her  engine?    A. — That  was  in  1880. 

Q.— What  did  you  do  to  her  in  1881?  A.— In  1881  she  was 
just  hauled  out  as  far  as  I  can  remember,  to  p..t  the  shafts 
and  the  boiler  on. 

Q. — You  told  the  Cou'missionera  that  she  was  thoroughly 
overhauled  at  ime  time.  What  time  was  that?  A. — I  can- 
not exactly  tell. 

Q. — Did  you  do  the  work?  A. — I  did  not  do  the  work  at 
that  time. 

Q. — Then  any  time  you  had  her  on  y(Mir  ways  she  was  not 
thoroughly  overhauled?     A. — No. 

Q. — So  far  as  your  experience  is  concerned  yon  cannot  tell 
anything  about  how  she  was  overhauled?  A. — Not  when  she 
was  thoroughly  overhauled.  I  had  nothing  to  do  with  that 
part. 

Q. — What  was  the  cost  of  the  work  you  did  on  the  boat 
the  "Anna  Beck"  in  1880?  A.— I  do  iiot  know,  1  have  no 
records  of  it. 

Q.— When  was  that  boat  bunied?  Was  it  in  1881?  A.— 
It  might  have  been  1882  or  188:?,  I  am  not  certain  on  that 
point. 


977 
(Hubt'it  J.  <'()ok— CioHH— \Viilt«'i-  Walkfi— Diiett.) 

*i-— ^Vlu'iv  wiiH  mIu'  wln'ii  hIic  wsih  huiiu'd?  A.— I  do  iM»t 
know  wIh'I'o  slu'  was  hiiriK'd,  shf  was  on  the  coast  some- 
whei-e. 

Q.— Was  she  at  sea  oi-  at  the  do<k?  A.— I  do  not  k"nbw 
tliat  even;  I  liave  a  reeol lection  of  lier  beinfi:  burned,  and  I 
have  a  ivcoHeetion  of  lier  beinf?  repaired  in  Lainc's  yard,  we 
raised  her. 

lO       Q.— What  do  .von  mean  b,v  that,  increased  her  deptli?    A  — 
Yes,  but  I  did  not  do  tlie  work. 

Q.— How  much  did  it  cost  to  construct  a  vessel  like  th<i 
"Anna  Beck"  i)er  re^istei-ed  ton  in  1881?  A.— Per  registeied 
ton? 

Q-— Yes.     A.— A  vessel  like  the  "Anna  Beck"? 
Q.— Yes,  per  registered    ton?    A.— The    hull    and    spars 
would  cost  |1.'{<>  i>er  ton. 
Q— Registered  ton?    A.— Registered  ton. 

,«  *.,HT^'"'*'  r"  *'"'  *^"^  before?    A.-No.  I  havi  not  said 
20  that  before  that  I  am  aware  of. 

Q. — Do  you  know  the  tonnage  of  the  "Anna  Beck""'     \  — 
It  is  something  over  4(»  ton,  hut  I  do  not  exactly  know  what. 
Q-— l>o  you  know  where  she  was  built?    A.— No 
Q.— Nor  how  old  she  was?    A.— No,  I  did  not  "know  her 
age. 

Q— You  do  not  pretend  to  place  the  value  of  the  "Anna 
Beck  as  she  was  in  1881,  do  vou,  Mr.  <^«M>k?  V  — I  could 
not  go  within  f  KM)  or  |2(H)  or  |:{(I0.  vou  may  say. 

30  luL^iT^y.')?*  '"  •^'""''  •''*'•''  "^  ^'"'  '■"'"''  "f  ^''^  "-^nna  Beck"  in 
1881/  A\ha.t  are  you  looking  at  there?  A.— I  am  just  look 
mg  to  see  when  I  got  her  out  tirst.     I  think  she  would  b«> 

^'ir^  \  ^M^^'*'''"  ^'^'*'  ""*^  ''•'^'  ^''<'"^i>'Hl  dollars;  she  was  a  good 
solid  bunt  vessel. 

nf^'i7j9'"\'''*l"''''^'*.,'\'':"*'*'.  ""  ^'""  '"*^^  »"''•  '•«'Ki«tered  ton 
of  fl.^O.'    A.— Yes,  that  ts  without  her  fit-out. 

I,  V,"~J!/''"^''''"*'-^'  ^"  R"  ^"  ^<'"-     A— Oh.  no.  that  is  the 
hull  of  the  ship. 

Q.— That  is  the  <ost  of  lier  new  at  that  lime  in  ISSl       Is  It 
40  .vo'ii-  Idea  that  a  ves.sel  such  as  she  would  cost  (liaf      \  — 1 
gave  you  what  the  vessel  would  cost  in  1881  as  she  stood 


W.ilter  Walker,  already  examiiu'd,  was  c.illed  as  a  witness 
on  the  part  of  Cn-eat  Britain. 

SO  Mr.  Beitjue:— We  desire  to  transfer  the  evidence  of  this 
witness  as  taken  in  the  "("arolena."  "Onward"  and  "Thorn- 
ton" cases,  except  such  pait  as  is  obviously  inapplicable. 

Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Beiqne- 

Q.— Did  you  know  the  "Anna  Beck,"  Mr.  Walker?  A  — 
Yes,  sir. 

Q— When  did  you  know  her?  A.— I  knew  her  up  until  she 
went  to  Behring  Sea  last  time. 

60        Q- — l>o  you  know  of  any  ivpairs  being  made  on  her?    A. 

Yes,  I  knew  of  her  being  repaired  the  last  time,  that  was  in 

I  WHo. 

Q.— On  what  oc<asioii  was  that?  A.— She  brought  down 
her  cargo  of  coal  in  188:$,  and  she  was  then  low  in  the  hold, 
and  she  took  tire  somewhere  on  the  bottom  and  burned  the 
deck  frame  and  part  of  th«'  coal  <argo;  I  visited  her  and  had 
a  look  at  the  coal,  the  coal  was  not  for  me,  but  it  was  for  the 
next  yard.     However,,  I  went  and  saw  it. 


'    ■  Hv 


•'ili    !l! 


.11^11. 


,      •! 


f'ifi 


|!  ''  !  I 


'   J: 


10 


20 


3^ 


978 

(Wultfi-  Walker— Ulreet.) 

Q. — Do  you  know  as  to  wh«?tlier  Bh«  was  re-built  in  1883? 
A. — Yes,  she  was  rt'-built,  they  iiiiHed  her  then.  They  saw 
that  she  was  too  low  in  the  hold,  and  they  put  from  eighteen 
inches  to  two  feet  more  on  her  sides,  and  put  in  her  a  new 
deck  frame  and  changed  lier  altogether  on  the  top. 

Q. — Where  was  she  rebuilt?  A. — Down  here  in  Langley's 
ship  yard. 

Q. — What  poftion  of  her  was  rebuilt?  A. — When  she  was 
stripp«*d  on  the  frames,  and  lengthened  up  to  meet  the  in- 
creased height,  then  a  new  deck  frame  was  put  in,  and  all  the 
shelving  that  is  necessary  to  put  in  a  new  deck  frame,  and 
she  was  built  from  the  water  up. 

Q. — Was  she  practically  made  a  new  vessel?  A. — Yes,  as 
far  as  her  upper  works  are  concerned. 

Q. — Did  you  ascertain  the  condition  of  tliat  portion  of  her 
which  was  under  water?  A. — TTnderneath  she  was  in  good 
condition. 

Q. — You  had  occasion  to  ascertain  that?  A. — Well,  I  have 
been  to  the  yard  when  she  was  impairing;  I  also  had  coal  in 
her  afterwards  and  she  never  made  any  water  and  that  is  a 
pretty  good  test. 

Q. — With  what  kind  of  timber  was  she  rebuilt?  A. — She 
was  rebuilt  with  Douglas  fir. 

Q. — Do  you  know  what  dead  weight  she  carried?  A. — 
Well,  before  the  accident  she  caried  75  tons,  and  afterwards 
she  carried  110  tons. 

Q. — What  was  the  occasion  of  your  knowing  that?  Did 
you  charter  her?  A. — I  had  her  at  so  much  per  ton  bringing 
«'oal  from  Nanaimo. 

Q. — What  do  you  consider  was  her  value  after  being  rebuilt 
in  1883?      A.— in  18S3  or  lS8(i? 

Q. — I  asked  you  in  1883,  and,  then  afterwards.  1  will  ask 
you  about  1880?  A. — Well,  I  consider  that  she  was  probably 
'worth  98.000  or  f9,00(»  wlien  she  firsft  came  out  in  1883  after 
the  repairs. 

Q. — And  fron'  188"  to  1887  had  you  any  occasion  to  see  her? 
A. — Yes,  I  took  coal  out  of  her  between  these  years,  I  can- 
not exactly  tell  the  lust  tinu-  she  carried  my  cargo. 

Q.— Y'ou  bad  occasion  to  see  her  every  year?  A.— Yes.  I 
saw  her  every  year. 

Q.—In  wliat  condition  was  she  kept  ?  A.— She  was  kept  in 
good  condition. 

Q.— Did  she  depreciate  from  the  year  18R3  to  the  year  1887? 
A.— Not  very  perceptibly,  but  still  I  should  consider  there 
would  be  a  certain  amount  of  depreciation  in  the  engines  and 
boiler,  and  wear  and  tear. 

Q._What  would  you  estimate  her  value  to  be  in  1S87?  A. 
—From  17,500  to  :ji8,000;  the  principal  depre«iation  wonld  be 
in  the  engine  and  boiler,  and  part  of  the  rigging. 

Q._Do  you  Icuow  what  was  the  space  taken  for  the  boiler 
and  engine?     A. — Do  you  mean  the  space  occupied? 

Q._Yes.      A.— Y'ou  want  to  know  by  what  rule  we  make 
the  deductions.      Well,  the  rule  is  that  you  measure  the  whole 
contents  of  the  vessel  first,  and  if  they  have  over  21  per  cent, 
of  the  whole  tonnage,  you  give  them  32  per  cent,  of  the  total 
60   tonnage,  the  deduction  is  for  tlie  engine  and  space.       That 
is  the  rule  which.  I  suppose,  was  followed  in  this  case,  but  I 
did  not  measure  her.     That  is  tlie  rule.  ,32-l00th8  of  the  total 
tonnage  after  moasunug  exactly  the  room  occupied  by  the 
engine  and  boiler 
(^  _Do  you  know  the  "Grace?"      A.— Y'es,  sir. 
Q.__l)o  you  know  when  she  was  built?      A,— .\bout  1881, 
I  think. 


40 


5" 


979 


(WjiHi'i-  Walkt'i- 


lO 


SO 


Diivtl.) 

A. — No,  i  do  not  kuow 


Q. — lio  you  know  what  touiui^jeV 
exactly. 

Q.— Do  you  know  what  8he  could  cuiiy  in  dwid  weight'  A 
—Yes,  she  could  carry  150  or  154  tons,  we  liuve  hud  that  on 

Q.— Coal?      A.— Coal. 

Q.— Had  she  steam  machinery?  A.— Yes,  and  a  hoisting 
engine  too  besides.  * 

Q— What  class  of  engine  and  boiler  had  she?  A.— Well 
she  made  very  good  time  for  a  steam  schooner;  she  used  to 
miike  pretty  good  trips,  and  she  must  have  had  a  good  boiler. 

Q.— Did  you  see  her  when  she  *vus  constructed?  A  —Yes 
I  saw  her  when  she  was  building.  ' 

Q.— What  kind  of  timber  was  she  built  of?  A  —Well 
there  was  some  yellow  cedar  used  in  the  frame,  that  is  these 
crooks,  brought  down  from  up  north. 

Q— How  does  that  compare  with  Douglas  fir?  A.— Well, 
it  is  supposed  to  be  the  very  best;  these  crooks  are  naturally 
shaped  to  the  turn  of  the  build,  and  for  that  reason  it  is  very 
valuable;  yon  can  get  it  almost  any  shape  vou  want,  it  grows 
np  north  on  the  Rkeena  river.  We  built  a  boat  there,  so  I 
know  all  about  it.  I  know  she  was  built  of  that,  because 
we  were  building  a  little  steamer  at  the  same  time,  and  got 
some  of  this  yellow  cedar  from  Captain  Warren  to  construct 
our  little  steamer  for  the  same  class  of  work. 

Q.— Did  you  see  hor  In  1887?      A.— I  saw  her  in  1887.  or 
JO   somewhere  about  that  time. 

Q. — What  do  yon  consider  her  value  in  1887?  A. — In  the 
neighborhood  of  fl2,000,  I  think  that  she  was  well  worth 
112.000. 

Q.— Did  yoii  know  the  ''Dolphin?"  A.— Yes,  I  knew  her, 
even  better  than  I  knew  the  "Grace." 

Q.— Did  you  see  her  built  too?      A.— Yes,  I  saw  her  built, 

Q. — In  Victoria?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— By  whom?      A.— By  McCulloch  Smith. 

Q. — How  was  she  built?      A — She  was  built  of  yellow  ce- 
'^     dar  crooks,  and  Douglas  fir,  and  slie  was  well  built,  much 
stronger  than  the  "Grace." 

Q. — Was  she  stronger  built  than  a  vessel  of  her  class  gen- 
erally is?      A. — Yes,  they  put  good  work  in  her. 

Q. — Was  she  copper  fastened?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — And  the  "Grace"  was  copper  fastened  too?  A. — Tree- 
nailed  principally,  she  was  not  copper  fastened  in  the  butts. 

Q. — The  "Anna  Beck"  ii'so  was  c<»i»i»er  fastened?  A. — I 
cannot  say;  she  had  copper  on  her.  It  would  be  very  dan- 
gerous to  put  copper  over  an  iron  vessel. 

Q— When  did  you  see  the  "Dolphin"  last?      A.— In  1887. 

Q. — Had  you  any  occasion  to  use  her  in  1887?  A. — Yes, 
before  she  wenr  sealing  she  brought  down  a  load  of  coal;  w<' 
had  sent  up  for  it  hurriedly,  and  1  remember  well  slu^  broiiglit 
it  down,  there  was  ice  in  the  harbour,  and  she  had  quite  a 
job  to  get  to  the  wharf. 

Q. — In  what  condition  was  she?     A. — In  good  tondition. 

Q. — Was  she  a  good  boat?  A. — Yes,  slie  made  a  very  g(M)d 
trip  that  last  trip. 

{}. — What  do  vou  consider  her  valne  in  1887?  A. — Slie  was 
worth  about  fl.'i.OOO  or  f  14.0(10. 

Q.— Did  vou  see  the  "W.  P.  S.ivward"  built?     A.— Yes. 

Q._Wlu.n?    A.— About  18S1  or  1882.  I  tiiink  it  was  1S82. 

Q. — By  whom  was  she  built?  A. — A  man  of  tlie  name  of 
Strachan. 

Q. — In  Victoria?    A. — Yes.  in  Laing's  sliip  yard. 

Q. — Do  yon  know  wliat  dead  weight  she  carried? 
could  carry  about  110  tons. 


6o 


ii 


A.— Sh« 


ii 


ySo 


il.; '  ■ 


|l'!|' 

!:''i 


10 


30 


30 


50 


<Io  not  tliiiik  HO. 

-Y»'M,  »lu'  had  part  iia- 


(NValti'i-  Walkt'i-— lHr»'»t  ( 'iohm.) 

(2, — Did  hIu*  carry  loal  for  you?  A. — Y»'»,  wo  bad  a  load 
or  two  after  nhe  wan  built  in  tlu'  Hprin);  of  18S3. 

(i.— Wat*  slic  Iniilt  witii  Uouglas  tir?  A.— Dou^Iuh  flr 
tlirougliout. 

(i. — An.v  ,v«*llow  «'»'dar?    A. — Ntt.  I 

ii. — Had  mIh'  natural  «r(Mtl»«?     A.- 
tural  crookN. 

ii. — Slit'  waH  coppi'r  fanttMU'd?  A. — Tliat  I  would  n(»t  say; 
she  wan  tici  naih'd.  Of  coui'mc  I  «-ann<»t  wi.v  wlu'thcr  they 
UH4>d  copin'r  HpikcH  or  not;  it  Ih  tlu>  UHual  <'aHt>  to  uw  copiMT 
Npik(>8  wlien  tlio  copfn'r  Ih  put  on  aftorwanlM.  TIk'.v  put  the 
platcH  on  tirHt  and  then  trint  th«>ni  nftorwardH. 

ii. — When  did  yon  b*"*-  her  Inst?    A. — I  saw  her  last  year. 

(i.— You  saw  her  in  1S87?     A.— Yes. 

Ci. — In  the  harbour  here?  A. — Yes.  jiwt  at  her  anchorage, 
I  was  n<»t  on  board  of  her. 

Q. — In  188fi  were  you  on  board  of  her?  A. — That  I  can- 
not sny. 

Q. — Can  you  say,  approximately,  when  you  were  on  board 
the  last  time  befoiv  the  seizure?  A. — No,  I  cann«>t  absoluteljr 
say. 

(2. — After  slie  was  built,  what  was  she  worth  in  1SH2  and 
lH8;t?  A. — I  MupiM>se  she  was  worth  alM)Ut  fS.tKHt,  when  slui 
was  newly  constructed,  and.  as  schooners  went  in  188(5,  I  con> 
sider  she  was  worth  close  on  to  fT.OOO,  that  is  the  "Hayward." 
She  was  built  in  1882  and  there  was  very  little  depreciatioD 
as  she  had  been  well  taken  care  of. 

Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Lansing. 


Q. — In  fixing  the  value  of  these  vessels  in  1886,  you  bast 
it  upon  what  ve8»<'ls  would  cost  to  cimstruct  at  that  time; 
A.— No,  these  three  last  vessels  I  did  not  consider  had  depre- 
ciated much  at  all  because  they  were  comparatively  new, 
they  were  built  in  1881  or  1882,  and,  therefore,  they  were, 
onlv  about  five  or  six  years  old. 

(j._AVell.  you  have  nttt  fixed  the  price  of  the  "Sayward"  iy 
1882    higher'  tliiiii    she   actually    cost?      A.— I  do  not  know 
what  she  actually  cost,  but  I  was  judging  from  the  knowlcd?r 
of  what  she  would  cost.     Hh«'  was  built  by  days'  work  and  ». 
could  not  exactly  say  what  she  cost. 

ii. — I>ays'  work  is  the  most  cxjM'nsive?  A. — Usnally,  un- 
less they  work  in  a  lot  of  friends,  and.  of  course,  it  d<M'8  not 
connt. 

Q. — Would  you  be  sur|)ris«'d  to  learn  that  Aho  cost  about 
|7.(I(M»  in  1882?  .\. — No,  I  would  not  be  sur])rised,  the  owner 
!ind  some  sailor  men  might  work  helping  to  faKt<*n,  and  give 
their  labour,  and  that  would  not  1m'  count«'d  in. 

ii. — How  do  you  ac<ount  for  tlie  fact  that  the  "Anna  Reck!' 
which  carried  the  same  amount  of  dead  weight,  v  as  valued  at 
a  higher  price?  A. — Tlie  "Anna  Heck"  had  an  engine  and 
boilers. 

(J. — n.)  you  know  anything  about  the  value  of  these  en- 
gines and  boilers?     A. — About  f2.500. 

ii. — Do  you  know  anything  about  it?     A. — Y'es,  I  gcner- 
60  "".V  hear  what  they  <ost. 

Q. — Wlu're  have  you  got  your  information?  A. — Well, 
from  the  .Mbion  Iron  Works  and  Oowans. 

Q. — -Vre  you  a  machinist?     A. — No,  sir. 

i). — Did  you  ever,  yourself,  have  .-inything  to  do  with  the 
engines?     A. — Well,  sometimes  pricing  them. 

Q. — Did  you  ever  buy  one?  A. — Yes.  I  bought  a  donkej 
emrine.  and  I  ran  it  on  land,  but  not  on  the  sea. 

i}. — What  hoise  power?     A. — About  six  I  believe. 


(Waller  Walker — OroHM.) 

Q.— Wlu'ii  (lid  .voii  Imi.v  llial?  A.— About  1MH8,  I  Itilii'vc, 
but  that  Im  no  comimriHon  with  a  iiuiriii(>  fni;iiic. 

The  CominiHHioiHT  on  the  part  of  the  United  StatcH:— Were 
them;  regular  marine  enj^ineH  with  condenHerH  and  every- 
thing? 

Mr.  PeterH: — Hinh  preHHure? 

The  ConnniKHloner  on  the  part  of  the  I'nited  HtateH:— Thou 
they  had  no  eondenMerH? 

Mr.  Peters : — Hijih  preHwure.  t'ondenHiiifr  en^inen.  they  ar»' 
described  in  the  HejjiMter. 

Mr.  Heique:— They  were  low  preHHure  inside. 

t'roHH-exaniination  continued  by  .Mr.  LanHin^: 

20       <i— ••<>  ,vou  know  where  the  "tSriice"  and  the  "Dolphin" 
are?     A.— I  know  th<>  "Dolphin"  is  here,  but  1  do  not  know 
where  the  "Orace"  is  now. 

Q. — ITaH  she  ^ot  an  engine  in  her?    A. — \o. 

Q. — Do  you  kno'^,'  why  they  took  it  out?  A.— T  cannot  tell 
you. 

<^— Doyon  know.  Mr.  Walker,  tlint  It  never  paid  in  isealin-,' 
to  have  one  of  fhcHe  enjiines? 

Mr.  IVters:— They  are  not  allowed  to  have  bv  the  r«'<Mila- 
tions. 


30 


Cross-cxaniination  by  Mr.  Lansing  continued: 


Q.— Is  that  the  only  reason  they  took  it  out?  A.— I  do  not 
know,  I  was  unfortunate  enough  to  buy  one  myself. 

Q.— When  did  they  take  it  out?  A.— I  do  not  know,  it  was 
not  here. 

(i.—lt  was  taken  out  before  the  regulations  went  into  ef- 
fect?    A.— It  must  have  been,  yes. 
40       Q.— In  speaking  of  the  deadweight  the  vessels  carried,  you 
refer  to  her  carrying  powei-  of  coal?    A.— I  do. 

Q.— And  on  trips  they  made  from  Nanaimo  to  Victoria? 
A. — Yes. 

g.— In  inland  waters?  A.— The  "Dolphin"  to  mv  know- 
ledge went  away  up  north;  she  made  two  trips  where  the 
"Boscowitz"  runs  now. 

^•— ^yith  coal?      A.— \o  with  ordinary  freight. 

g.—You  do  not  know  whether  slie  caried  that  amount  of 
freight?  A.— No,  I  do  not  think  that  she  carried  that  amount 
50   of  freight. 

Q- — ^"ot  when  she  was  in  the  open  ocean?  A. — No,  I 
should  think  that  that  would  be  too  much. 

Q. — And  what  you  said  refers  to  inland  carrying?    A. 

Yes. 

(i.— How  long  does  it  take  for  a  trip  from  Nanaimo  to  Vic- 
toria and  return?      A.— About  two  and  a  half  days. 

Q.— Is  your  estimate  of  the  value  of  these  vessels  made 

from  actual  knowledge,  or  from  what  you  t.-nsider  that  they 

gQ   would  cost  to  build  per  ton.      A.— Actual  knowledge  of  the 

general  construction  of  these  vessels;  I  never  base  my  figures 

(m  so  much  per  ton. 

Q. — How  do  you  reach  your  estimate?  A. — I  calculate  on 
the  kind  of  boat  I  am  going  to  build,  and  what  kind  of  fasten- 
ing she  will  have,  I  put  in  the  figures,  and  figure  out  how 
much  days'  work  she  ought  to  take  and  from  my  knowledge 
what  will  be  expended  on  the  vessel. 

Q. — You  calculate  on  the  days  work?       A. — On  the  davs 


i 


h 


I 


I 


i 


m 


!  I  |l 


'ik 


lO 


20 


982 

OViilter  Walker— CrosH— Redirect.       John    Irving— Direct.) 

work  iind  material  yes,  and  the  kind  of  material  whether 
«<>8tly  or  not. 

Q. — Do  you  know  the  "Dolphin"  was  about  fiO  registered 
tons?  A. — I  suppose  that  would  be  her  tonnage  including 
deductions.  The  rule  is  tliat  a  vessel  of  so  many  registered 
tons  will  carry  about  twice  that  in  dead  weight.  I  have 
found   that   by   experience. 

Q. — What  do  you  say  the  "Dolphin"  would  carry?  A. — 
1.34  tons. 

Q. — Was  the  "(Irace"  larger?      A. — Yes 

Q- — But  not  as  valuable  a  vessel?      A. — No. 

Q. — In  ev»>ry  case  you  havt  calculated  that  they  would  car- 
ry dead  weight  to  twice  the  registered  tonnage?  A. — Pretty 
much,  it  will  come  out  about  most  of  the  time. 

Q. — Tliat  is  the  way  yon  reach  the  dead  weight?  A. — 
Yes,  with  some  I  did  not  have  them  tested. 

Q.— Tint  the  "Say ward"  was  the  only  one  you  had  tested? 
A. — I  had  a  test  of  her  and  she  carried  110  tons,  I  had  a  test 
of  the  other  two,  and  the  "Grac*'"  carried  1!)4  tons  and  the 
"Dolidiin"  1.34  tons. 

Re-direct  examination  by  Mr.  Beiijue: 

Q — How  does  the  work  done  by  days  work  compare  with 
the  work  done  by  contract?  A. — If  depends  altogether  on 
who  is  d<»ing  the  work,  if  you  hav»>  an  honest  contractor  it  is 
just  as  good  as  a  days  work,  if  he  has  a  reputation  to  keep  up 
he  wants  to  do  his  work  well. 

Q. — You  have  bwn  asked  as  to  your  knowledge  of  the  re- 
moval of  th<>  steam  engine  from  the  "Dolphin?"  A. — Yes, 
sir.  »       ^    'j!, 

Q. — Do  you  know  when  the  steam  engine  was  removed 
from  her?      A. — No,  I  do  not. 

Q. — It  was  after  the  vessel  had  become  an  American  ves 
sel?  A. — Oh,  yes.  I  never  saw  her  until  last  year,  since 
1SS7.  I  saw  her  in  the  harbour  last  year  and  she  had  no  en- 
gine. 

The  Commissioner  on  llie  part  of  the  United  St.-ites: — Did 
you  have  coal  carried  in  these  vessels  in  lS8(i  and  1SS7? 

The  witness:— Yes,  I  had  a  load  in  1887  from  the  "Dolphin." 

The  t'ommissioner  on  the  jiart  of  the  Thiited  States: — Was 
there  the  cu-ttomary  demurrage  in  the  coal  business  at  that 
lime  for  detention  of  vessels? 

The  witness: — No,  I  think  not;  we  never  had  anything  of 
CQ.   4hal  kind  here,  we  had  to  take  chances  on  it. 


30 


40 


60 


John  Irving  was  called  iis  a  wilne'is  on  the  part  of  Great 
Britain  and  was  duly  sworn. 

Sir  ('.  H.  Tui»per: — The  evidence  of  this  witness  is  given  in 
the  case  <»f  the  "Tliointon." 

Direct  examination  by  Sir  O.  n.  Tapper. 

Q. — Captain  Irving,  you  hold  a  master's  certificate  for  deep 
sea  navigation?      .\. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — You  are  a  memb<>r  of  the  Local  I^'glslature  of  British 
Columbia?       .\. — Yes.  sir. 

Q. — You  are  managing  owner  of  the  Canadian  Pacific  Navi- 
gation Co?      A. — Yes,  sir 


«^ 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


9S3 

(John  Ii'viiifj — Direct — Cross.) 

Q. — How  man.v  vcssols  have  you  in  jour  fleet?      A. — Nine. 

Q. — How  long  have  you  been  engaged  in  buying  and  sel- 
ling vessels  and  having  vessels  repaired?    A. — Since  1874. 

Q.— You  knew  the  "Thornton?"      A.— I  did 

Q. — When  yon  knew  her  first  what  was  she?      A. — A  slcpp. 

Q. — After  that  what  was  she?      A  — A  schooner. 

Q. — And  then?      A. — And  thea  she  was  a  steam  schooner. 

Q. — In  188(5  what  would  it  have  cost  to  have  built  a  schoon- 
er of  the  size  and  build  of  the  "Thornton"  in  Victoria?  A. — 
From  eight  to  ten  thousand  dollars. 

Q. — Would  that  be  with  the  machinery?  A. — Yes,  with 
the  machinery. 

Q.— Complete?       A.— Complete. 

Q. — What  would  one  like  her  have  cot^t  to  build  without 
machinery?      A — I  would  say  about  |fl,00(). 

Q. — You  built  a  smaller  boat,  1  believe,  some  time  ago  in 
Victoria?      A.— In  18!)()  I  built  a  small  boat. 

Q._What  did  she  cost  you?  A.- Between  fl.%000  and 
111  4.0(10. 

Q._\Vhat  was  she  named?      A.— The  '-Standard." 

Q.— Where  did  you  build  her?      A.— In  Victoria. 

Q. — What  would  it  cost  to  put  in  machinery  like  the 
"Thornton"  had — I  mean  outside  of  the  cost  of  the  machin- 
,.,.v?     A.— To  change  it  would  cost  at  least  f2,()00  or  f3.000. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States:— IIow 
much.  Captain  Irving? 

The  witness:— Between  f 2,000  and  f 3,000. 

The  Commissioner  on  th<  part  of  the  United  States:— Be- 
sides the  cost  of  the  machinery? 

The  witness: — Yes,  you  would  have  to  haul  her  out  and  put 
her  on  th«*  ways  and  make  the  alterations. 

Direct  examination  by  Sir  C.  H.  Tapper  continued: 

Q. — In  1883  you  had  no  railway  communication  with  East- 
ern Canada?    A. — No. 

Q. — You  changed  a  boijt  called  the  "Maud"  fnun  a  paddle 
wheel  into  a  propeller?    A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q.— At  what  cost?      A.— $12,000. 

Q.— What  time  was  that?    A.— About  1887  or  1888. 

Q. — About  what  tonnagi'  was  the  "Maud"?  .V. — About  1.30 
tons. 

Q. — Cin  you  say  generally  what  is  the  actual  horse  power 
as  compared  with  the  registered  horse  power?  A.— That  de- 
pends on  the  engine — it  will  run  say  from  six  to  tv*  Ive  times 
as  much  as  the  nominal  registered  power. 

Q. — The  registen'd  i)ower  is  the  nominal?  A  -The  regis- 
tered is  the  nominal. 

Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Warren: 

Q. — In  what  year  did  you  first  remember  the  "Thornton"? 
A.— About  1874. 

(l — She  was  a  sloop  then?     .\. — Yes. 

Q. — Do  you  ri'niember  lier  length?  A. — I  do  not  remember 
her  length,  she  was  a  vessel.  I  should  say,  about  80  feet  long. 

Q. — Eighty  feet?    A.— .\bout  that;  I  do  not  know  exactly. 

Q. — When  you  gave  your  idea  of  the  value  of  the  "Thorn- 
ton," did  you  think  she  was  80  feet  long?  A. — I  never  meas- 
ured her. 

Q. — What  was  her  beam?  .V. — .\bout  18  feet,  I  should 
think. 


I      ': 


lO 


20 


984 

(J«»hii  liviiifj; — Cross.) 

Q.— Wliiit  was  tlic  dcplli  of  Iht  holit?  A.— 1  slionld  ju<1k<' 
iiliont  seven  feet. 

(i.— Wliiit  W(»ul(l  her  (ouiiiiRe  be?  A  — KeKistered  or  groBS? 

(2. — Hefjist*  red?  A. —  I  should  sa.v  that  she  was  a  vessel 
that  would  reffister  about  4(1  tons. 

{}. — With  the  deductions  made  on  account  of  the  machin- 
ery? .\ — Yes.  of  cours<'  this  is  only  ku<'ss  work.  I  never 
nu'asniH'd  the  vessel,  and  it  is  lookiu};  at  her  alongside  the 
dock  that  I  tigiire  on. 

Q. — That  is  4(»  tons  with  the  deductions  made  on  account 
of  the  machinery?  A. — It  nmy  be  more  than  that,  but  I  can- 
not tell  yon. 

Q. — 1  want  to  tind  out  what  yon  mean  by  the  40  tons.  Do 
you  mean  after  the  deductions  weie  made?  A. — I  should 
judge  it  was  somewhere  about  that. 

Q. — It  might  be  more?     A. — It  might  be  more. 

Q.  —When  you  gave  your  idea  of  the  <ost  of  building  a  boat 
like  the  "Thornton"  in  1SS(!  in  Victoria,  did  you  have  40  tons 
in  ycHir  mind  or  moiv  than  that?  A. — The  dimensions  of  a 
bout  about  that  size. 

(.}. — Would  it  nmke  any  dift'erence  in  the  cost  of  the  "Thorn- 
ton" if  it  turned  out  that  she  was  only  50  feet  long?  A. — It 
would  certainly  make  a  little  ditference. 

Q. — Would  it  make  any  ditfers'nce  if  she  was  4  feet  0  inches 
in  jhe  hold  instead  of  7  feet?  A. — Yes,  that  would  make  a 
difference. 

Q. — You  were  just  idaking  a  guess  at  that,  were  you  not, 
30  Ciiptain?     A. — Yes,  I  have  not  gone    into    any     calculation 
about  that  boat. 

l}. — You  are  not  testifyiiig  from  yonr  actual  recollection  of 
the  boat?     A. — From  what  I  could  rememlx^r  seeing  of  her. 

Q. — When  did  yon  see  her  las>'?     A. — I  cannot  tell  yon. 

Q. — Have  you  been  accustonud  to  deal  with  boats  very 
much  larger  than  the  "Thornton"  ?  A. — All  sizes,  I  have  had 
to  do  with  both  smaller  and  larger. 

i.i. — What  small  boat  did  yc,u  ever  have  anything  to  do 
with?     A.— The  "Standard."  I  built  her  here. 

Q. — She  was  130  tons?  A. — No,  she  registered  abont  SO 
tons. 

Q. — Was  she  a  sleiiUK  r?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— ^^'hat  did  she  cost  to  build  in  18!»0?  A.— Betwe«'n 
thirteen  and  fourteen  iliotisand  dollars. 

Q. — Without  hei'  slcaiu?     A. — No,  altogether. 

Q.— Without  her  steam,  what  did  sh«"  cost?     A.— The  hull? 

Q. — Yes.  A. — I  think  flie  contract  price  was  between  four 
and  live  thousand  dollais. 

Q. — Was  she  a  yacht?  A. — She  was  not  n  yacht,  but  she 
looked  like  one. 

Q. — She  was  nicely  finislu'd?  A. — Yes,  she  was  a  very  nice 
little  boat.  hIic  was  built  for  cannery  work  for  towing. 

ii. — Was  she  ii  lug?     A. — She  was  used  for  that  purpose. 

ii. —  l>o  you  think  it  would  have  cost  about  f 0,000  t(»  build 
(he  hull  of  (he  "Thornton"  in  1SS0?  A.— I  think  it  was  scune- 
where  abou(  (hat  j>rice. 

ii. — Tha(  is  if  she  w;is  abou(  SO  fee(  in  lengdi,  7  feet  deejt 
in  (he  hold  .lUd  IS  feet  beam?     A.— Yes.  sir. 

iy — And  registered  4(t  (cms  with  deductions  made  for  the 
machinery?     .\. —  In  (ha(  neighluuhood. 

ii. — You  think  that  i(  would  cost  between  two  and  three 
thousand  dollars  (o  prepare  that  boat  to  leceive  her  steam? 
A. — To  |>u(  (he  whole  Oiing  in  I  should  (liink  i(  would  cost 
between  (wo  and  Ihi'ee  i!iou.sand  dollars. 

<i. — The  ('(imniissicMiers  asked  you  if  that  was  to  rooelve 
(he  machiner\   and  1   iieard  vou  sav  "Yes"'?     A. — That  is  to 


40 


50 


60 


98s 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


(.T<»hu  Irviiif; — Cross.) 

take  tlie  m.a(liiiHM'.v  from  tlie  shop  and  put  it  into  the  boat; 
slu'  would  have  to  be  ehauged  in  order  to  put  tlie  shaft  in. 

Q— Would  two  or  three  thousand  dollars  bu.v  the  machin- 
ery and  put  it  in,  or  is  that  exclusive  of  the  cost  of  buying 
it?  A.— That  is  exclusive  of  the  cost  of  buving  the  machin- 
ei-y 

Q.— That  is  to  put  her  sleeve  in?  A.— Yes.  all  that  work, 
10    ii'id  making  the  hole  for  lier  propeller. 

Q.— And  you  think  that  the  cost  of  that  on  the  "Thorn- 
ton" would  be  between  two  and  three  thousand  dollars?  A. 
I  think  the  work  would  cost  that. 

Q.— And  when  you  valued  th(>  "Thornton"  at  between  eight 
and  ten  thousand  dollars,  you  had  in  your  mind  that  it  would 

cost  two  or  three  thousand  dollars  to  get  her  ready?      A. 

I'es,  of  course  she  was  a  schooner  before,  and  of  course  they 
would  have  to  open  her. 

Q  — You  have  not  answered  Mie  question.  A. — I  valued  the 
vessel  at  about  eight  to  ten  tliousand  dollars  with  her  ma- 
<  hinery  in  her. 

Q- — What  is  your  idea  ef  the  cost  of  the  machinery  in  th(> 
"Thornton?"  A.— I  should  say  that  the  boiler  and  tlie  whole 
business,  of  course  I  have  not  seen  the  machinery  

Q  — Vou  must  have  some  idea  of  it  when  you  are  testifving 
to  it. 

The  ('(mimissioner  on  the  part  of  (he  United  States:— If  he 
has  not  seen  the  machinery  he  cannot  say  what  it  is  worth. 

Q.— Hut  he  told  us  that  the  vahie  of  the  vessel,  including 
the  machinery  was  ten  thousand  dollars,  that  her  value  was 
six  thousand  dollars,  exclusive  of  the  machinery,  and  the  cost 
of  putting  in  the  machinery  was  two  or  three  thousand  dol- 
lars. Xow.  Caplain  Irving,  what  is  your  idea  of  the  cost  of 
the  machinery  in  the  "Thornton?"  "  A.— I  understood  that 
the  cylinder  was  a  (i-iuch  cylinder,  with  a  ll'-inch  stroke,  and 
for  the  boiler  and  engine,  I  would  say  the  contiiict  jtrice  would 
not  be  less  than  !!|;2,.")(M». 

Q- — Captain  Irving,  in  your  biisiness  exj.  .  iiine  you  have 
learned  the  fact  that  vessels  depreciate  in  value  as  they  grew 
old.  A. — Sometimes  they  do,  sometimes  they  do  not,  it  «le- 
j)ends  on  their  business. 

Q. — Is  the  West  Coast  of  Vancouver  Island,  and  up  in 
Hehiing  Sea  an  easy  place  on  vessels?  A. — .lust  as  easy 
as  in  any  other  part  of  the  world;  it  is  not  anv  worse  a  coast 
than  the  Atlantic. 

Q. — Do  you  know  what  time  the  "Thorntcm"  was  built?  A. 
— No,  I  do  not 

Q.— Well,  if  Uie  "Thornton"  was  built  in  18(il  and  slie  was 
rebuilt  to  a  certain  extent — and  ]»erhai»s  to  a  very  large  ex- 
tent— in  1S77 — do  you  think  she  would  depreciate  in  value  uj) 
to  1880?  A. — Jt  w(»uld  de])end  on  how  she  was  constructed 
and  the  material,  if  she  was  built  of  certain  kinds  of  timbor 
she  might  be  nitten  at  that  time. 

(.i. — If  she  were  built  of  Douglas  111'  would  she  dejtreciate? 
.\. — That  would  depend  ujion  the  season  of  the  year  the  tir 
was  cut;  If  it  was  during  the  winter  months  and  the  saj)  was 
out  of  it,  the  mateiial  w<uild  be  as  good  as  evei'  it  was  at 


think  the  "Thoi'uton"'  was  as  good  in  1880 
IS77?      A. — I  do  not  know,  I  never  examined 


th;it  time. 

Q. — You  do  not 
as  she  was  in 
her 

The  Commissioner  on  the  |)art  of  the  United  States: — What 
type  of  engine  was  in  the  "Thornton?" 

The  witness: — A  single  engine  with  coiidensers    I  believe, 
but  I  do  not  know.      It  would  not  have  been  anything  else  to 


II 


!l 


wm- 


(John  Irving — Cross. 


9«6 

John  A.  ThoniHon — Direct.) 


lO 


30 


{to  to  s»'a  with,  it  would  not  have  been  a  high  pressure  en- 
gine. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  Ignited  States: — Do 
.vou  know  the  size  of  the  boiler? 

The  witness: — I  do  not  know. 

The  «  oinmlssloner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Did 
they  run  low  pressure  in  those  days?      — 

The  witness: — Yes. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — What 
was  the  type  of  engine  on  the  "Standard?" 

The  witness: — Triple  expansion  engine. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — And 
the  boiler,  of  course,  would  cost  more. 

The  witness: — The  boiler,  of  course,  of  a  triple  expansion 
engine  is  built  to  carry  KM)  lbs. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — In 
the  case  of  these  steamers  with  triple  expansion  engines  thsit 
you  have  spoken  of,  the  cost  of  building  and  the  cost  of  put- 
ting in  the  engines,  etc.,  would  be  more? 

The  witness: — Tlie  Maud's  engine  was  comi>ound  and 
there  were  two  cylinders. 

The  Commissioners  took  recess  at  1  o'clock. 


40 


50 


60 


At  2.30  o'clock  the  Commissioners  resumed  their  seats. 

John  A.  Thomson  was  called  as  a  witness  on  the  part  of 
Great  Britain  and  was  duly  sworn  and  examined  in  the 
"Thornton"  case. 

Direct  examination  by  Sir  C.  II.  Tupper: 

Q._What  is  your  position,  Mr.  Thomson?  A.— I  am  In- 
spector of  Machinery  and  Boilers  for  the  Province'  of  British 
(Columbia,  and  Inspector  of  IIuIIh  for  the  Skeena  District, 
and  Measuring  Surveyor  of  Shii>ping  for  (lie  Province  of 
British  Columbia. 

Q.--Y0U  are  In  the  service  of  the  Dominion  Oovcinmmt? 
A.— Yes. 

Q. — How  long  have  you  held  that  position?  A. — Six  and 
a  lialf  years. 

Q. — \Vho  was  your  predecessor?  A. — My  immediate  i)re- 
decessor  was  W.  A.  Kussell. 

Q. — And  who  before  him?  A. — There  was  a  locum  tenens, 
William  Nicholas. 

Q. — Where  are  these  gentlemen?  A. — Mr.  Nicliolas  is 
dead,  and  I  do  not  «'\actly  know  where  Mr.  Russt'll  is. 

Q. — Have  vou  the  books  of  the  office  in  vour  posHession? 
A.— Yes. 

Q. — When  boil(>rs  are  inspected  and  certificates  given  in 
connection  with  boilers  and  engines,  are  rtH'ords  kept  by  the 
officers  in  your  position?    A. — Yes 

Q. — And  you  have  these  records  for  British  Columbia?  A. 
— Yes,  sir. 


987 
(John  A.  Tlioiiiwm— Direct.) 

Q.— You  have  been  asked  to  bring  witli  you  the  records  re 
atmg  to  the  "Thornton"  and  some  other  vessels  in  dispute 
Ijere.'    A.— Yes,  sir.  * 

A— Flmvr  "^"^  ^'"'*'*'  ^""''^  ''*  I*'"''^*'"*  '"  '^'<*""'  Possession? 

Q.— Just  turn  up  the  record  of  the  "Thornton"'  A  —I 
have  it. 

lo       9-~y^'i?.*  ^^^^  'S  ♦•>«♦?    A.— 8th  October,  1885. 

Q.— Is  the  record  long?  A.— Not  verv  long,  there  is  a 
statement  of  tonnage  and  the  dimensions  of  the  vessel  and 
descriptions  of  the  engine  and  boilers.  ' 

Mr.  Dickinson :— Whose  record  is  that? 

The  witness  :-lt  is  a  record  of  Edward  Viger,  who  is  dead. 

Q.— Will  you  please  read  that  record  for  the  "Thornton"? 

20  ...^'•""';,«f  vessel  "Thornton."  Port  of  registry,  Victoria 
B.C.  Port  and  date  of  inspection,  Victoria,  Oct  8th  S 
Owner  and  residence.  J.  D.  Warren,  Victoria  B.  C.  Tons  ut 

;n^;<;^^due  :^sr'^^  S^'t^'  *""""»^^''  ''■''■ 

8th    ISS'^       tT  .1  !     .•      ^  "^'^  "^  payment,  October 

B  r       IHt.Jf    ^^  »'»  ;'"<Vvhere  paid,  Collector,  Victoria, 

'emnb*^  llf    "ZT-'f^'  ^*''''^''  -"*'"•  ^^^'^-      ^ate  of  issue 

or  Xw  s!  rew       «  "  /'  I«"^r"f^'"'  «'•  ^"S-  f '-eigLt.      PiiddlJ 

3°   when  bT;irt    isn    n        '  ""'"*''?.  ""i  ^'■'*'^''  ^'olunibia.    Year 

fI>om  ii'  I      'r  ^"?S:'^nes8,  U.   S.       Dimensions    of    hull 

?Z..«  H  il%"^/'^^"'*'-^^  ^^''""♦'»'  '^-  feet;  breadth,  19  feet 
2-l()ths;  depth,  5  feet  1-lOth.      Wood  or  iron,  wood 

vo5""^"\?*~";^l"'*''  '*"'''  ™""^'  2-  Spread  of  canvas  240 
jards.  No.  of  funnels,  size  and  height,  one,  12x12.  No 
and  dimensions  of  boats,  one,  lGx4x2.  Equipment  of  boats 
and  No.  oars  ea<-h,  i  oars.  P.  R.  No.  of  life  presenters  and 
buoys  where  placed,  1  buoy.    No.  and  weight  of  anchoi-s,  size 

?nn  ,K°^  \t"'  ''''''""'  ""*^'  *""  'b'^'  ^"♦^  fathoms  f  chain;  one, 
40  100  lbs  No.  of  signals  and  lamps,  if  a  fog  bell,  3  signals;  6 
lamps,  1  bell.  No.  of  passenger  staterooms.  No.  passengers 
allowed,  no  passengers  allowed.  No.  crew  all  told,  five  all 
told.  Diameter  and  pitch  screw,  revolutions  of  engine, 
3xftxfi,  125  revolutions.  Draught  of  water,  light  and  loaded, 
5  feet  light,  7  feet  loaded.  Limited  draught  of  water  licht 
and  loaded,  6  feet. 

General  ((ualities.— If  sail  under  canvas  alone,  yes.  Speed 
in  miles  under  steam.  4  miles.  Fitness  for  route,  seaworthy 
qualities,  good. 

Boilers. — <leiieral  form  and  dimensions. — Form  of  boiler. 
No  of  boiler  and  age,  one  cylindrical.  5  years.  Dimensions 
of  boiler,  width,  length,  heiglit,  extreme  iieijflit,  .*{  feet,  7  fwt 
diameter.  7  feer  long.  No.  furnaces  and  tiiickness  of  plate, 
one.  516  plate.  Dimensions  of  furnace,  if  circular,  diameter, 
circular,  3x1x0  diameter.  Extreme  length.  7  feet.  Wheth- 
er butt  or  liip  joint,  single  or  double  butt,  single  or  double 
riveted,  with  or  without  bevel,  lap  joint  single,  without  bevel. 
No.  outside  diameter  and  length  of  tubes.  40.  tub<'s  2i  diam- 
60  eter.  7  feet  long.  Diameter  of  steam  drum,  10  in.  Dimen- 
sion of  furnace.  3x1x0.  Thickness  of  plates  in  shell  of  boiler, 
5-10  in.  Thickness  of  plates  in  steam  drum,  516  in.  Name 
of  maker  of  plates  in  shell  of  boiler,  whether  steel  or  iron, 
iron,  Bloomfleld,  best,  best  IT.,  iron.  Do.  in  furnaces,  and 
whether  steel  or  iron.  iron.  Per  cent,  of  strength  of  plate 
at  longitudinal  joint,  as  compared  to  tlie  solid  plate,  03  per 
cent.  Per  cent,  of  strength  of  rivets.  105  per  cent.  Diam- 
eter and  pitch  of    rivets  in    longitudinal    joints,    S  and  If. 


^|1 

if 


4; 

si  ■ 


K 


I 


20 


30 


40 


5o 


(.Tolm  A.  Tlioiiisoii — Direct.) 

Whetlu'i-  butt  or  lap  joint,  Jap.  Double  oi-  siugle  riveted, 
double.  Whether  rivet  holes  are  drilled  or  punched,  punch- 
ed. 

Stays— Steant  Drum. — Number  and  size  of  stays  in  steam 
drum  head,  4  I  in.  diameter.  To  what  secured,  to  sides. 
Size  of  opening  in  shell  in  steam  drum,  K!  in.  Mean  stay 
strength  per  square  inch  of  boiler  compared  to  strength  of 
10  cylindrical  shell  at  longitudinal  joints,  e()ual  to  pressure  al- 
lowed. 

General  Remarks.— Age  of  boiler.  V»y  whom  made,  5  years, 
Robertson,  \'ictoria.  Class.  g<»od,  fairly  good,  indifTerent. 
bad.  fairly  good  When  rejtaired,  what  rejmirs,  4  new  stays 
put  in.  What  provision  for  cleaning,  fail'.  How  often 
cleaned,  as  required.  Reductions  below  full  standard  of 
strength,  none. 

Kngine  and  Machinery. — Comjmund,  condensing  or  high 
pressure,  high  pressure,  condensing.  No.  .ind  diameter  of 
cylinders.  1  (!J  in.  Stroke  of  piston,  12in.  \A'orking  pres- 
sure and  point  of  cut-off,  Ji.')  lbs.,  ith.  Diameter  of  main  jour- 
nal, 2}  in.  Dianu'ter  of  crank  pin,  2  in.  Diameier  of  steam 
pipe.  U  in.  Slaterial  in  steam  i»ii»e.  iron.  Steam  stop  valve 
on  boiler.  11  in.,  brass.  Dianu'ter  and  stroke  of  feed  ])umi), 
IJx,*?  in.  Diameter  of  piston  rod,  1}  in.  Workmanship  and 
general  efficiency  of  engine,  fair.  Diameter  of  feed  water 
pipe,  3  in. 

Roller  Fittings — Safety  vah's,  etc. — No.  and  size  of  lock»'d 
safety  valves,  spring  or  lever,  1  spring.  2^  in.  diameter.  Size 
of  steel,  No.  of  coils,  and  length  of  main  spring  when  o])en. 
Size  of  coils  of  st(^l,  0  in.  long,  5  iu.  diameter.  No.  and  size 
of  open  valves,  two,  li  in.  diameter.  Area  of  locked  valve 
to  square  foot  of  grate,  do.,  open  valves,  i  in.  to  each  square 
foot.  No.  of  try  cocks,  ?>.  No.  of  steam  gauges,  1.  No.  of 
water  glass  do.,  1.      Range  of  do.,  do.,  0  in. 

Roller  Test. — Test  and  Condition  of  Boilers. — Hydraulic 
lest  pressure  in  pounds  per  scpnire  inch,  110  jtounds.  State 
of  boiler  under  same,  whether  good,  fairly  good.  Indifferent 
or  bad,  good. 

Working  pressure  allowed,  52  lbs.  Adjustment  of  safety 
valves,  by  whom,  when  last  adjusted,  whether  tinder  steam 
or  by  water  pressure,  same  time  as  rest  by  Insi)ector  I'].  S. 
Viger.  Were  the  boilers  cleaned  previous  to  test,  yes.  Were 
they  examined  inside,  yes.  Were  tliey  examined  outside,  and 
by  whom,  yes,  E.  S.  S'iger.  The  inspector  will  here  state  the 
condition  in  whihc  he  finds  the  boilers;  if  neglected  and  badly 
used,  by  whom,  very  fair.  Boiler  bed.  in  what  material  laid, 
is  the  bottom  wet  or  dry,  cast  iron  cradle.  Cradle  fasten- 
ings. ^  in.  bolts.  Holding  down  bolts  and  braces,  and  to 
what  secured,  1ft.  x  iin.  straps  to  keelson. 


Q. — I  put  in  your  hand  exhibit  ID,  G.  B.,  being  the  certi- 
ficate of  survey  relating  to  the  "Thornton."  in  wliich  it  ap- 
pears that  the  number  of  horse  j)ower  combined  is  1.21,  and 
1  would  ask  you  ^[r.  Thomson  what  actual  luvrse  power  that 
registered  horse  power  would  represent;  state  about  it?  A. 
f)0  — T'liat  is  not  quite  correct  there,  it  is  a  little  small  Iri  that 
siii  vey. 

Q. — First,  if  you  like,  take  a  look  at  your  book,  and  state 
what  you  would  say  her  actual  horse  power  was?  A. — By 
the  revolutions  as  given  in  this  report  here  and  the  cut-off  as 
given  here,  she  ought  to  run  from  Kilo  1,')  hoi-se  power,  it  de- 
pends a  good  deal  on  the  circumstances. 

Q. — You  say  that  the  nominal  horse  power  in  the  survey 
seems  to  be  underst.nted  in  your  opinion?    A.— The  nominal 


9% 


(Joliii  A.  Tlioiiison — Direct — (.'ros«.) 

horae  p<^wel•  is  got  b.v  squaiinjj  tli<.  diainetor  of  i\w  tvlindcr, 
iind  dividin};  by  30;  the  square  of  C^  is  42^,  and  ao  into  that  is 

*i- — Tl'iit  i**  tlu'  way  the  nominal  horse  power  is  reached 
under  fhe  British  M.'rdiiint  Hhippinf;  Act?    A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Now,  Mr.  Tlionison.  liaving  read  the  description  of  this 

holier  and  engine.  I  ask  you  what,  approximately,  would  be 

,,,  the  cost  of  tliat  in  Victoria  in  lS8o?     I  refer  to" the  engine 

boih'r  and  attachments?     A.— The  boiler  at  that  time  was 

Kuen  as  five  years  old. 

Q.— I  say  having  read  that  description  of  the  boiler  and 
en>',ine,  what  would  the  boiler  and  enjjine  and  attachments 
approximately  cost  when  new  to  be  constructed  in  \Mctorla 
about  that  period?    A.— |;2,fi()(»  or  |2.7(»0. 

(i.— Did  you,  or  did  you  not,  actual Iv  see  the  "Thornton'"' 
A.— Oil,  yes.  I  have  seen  the  '-Thornton." 

Q.— And  this  engine  and  boilcM?  A.— I  have  seen  them,  but 
2o  not  to  examine  them.  ' 

^•~I"."  '"'^■•*-  *'*'  "  ""'^ter  of  fact,  seen  them,  but  not  in 
your  official  capacity?    a.— Ves,  sir. 

('ross-exaniinati»m  by  Mr.  Dickinson: 

Q.-You  have  the  Uegistry  shown  to  you,  and  you  sav,  that, 
estimating  from  your  own  record,  the  horse  power  is  a  little 
smaller  there?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

(i.— The  difference  is  between  1.2  and  1.4.      A  —Yes    sir 
30    .  Q;77Wh«^ie  did  you  say  that  that  boiler  was  made?      A  — 
.\t  \ictoria.  by  Robertson. 

Q.— The  boiler  was  made  in  Victoria?  A.— Davie  was  the 
man  that  constructed  it  under  Robertson  &  Son. 

Q.— Is  that  part  of  your  own  report?      A.— Yes. 

Q.— Does  this  correspond  with  what  vou  have  read?  A  — 
Yes. 

Q.— Have  you  examined  it  to  show  that  it  does  correspond 
with  the  recor(i  you  iiave  read?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.-  Now.  when  you  say  that  her  horse  power  is  from  1.3  to 
40  1")  you  mean  that  thai  is  the  utmost  capacity?  A.— That  is 
what  it  would  work  uii  to. 

Q.— It  is  not  i»erm!tted  though  to  use  that?  A.— Yes,  it 
is. 

Q.— The  highest  capacity?     .\.— Yes. 

Q. — How  miirh  pressure  was  she  allowed?    A. — 52. 

Q. — How  much  was  her  capacity?      A. — How  do  you  mean? 

Q.— How  luiiih  pressure?  Y<tu  would  test  by  pressure 
the  strength  of  the  boiler?  A.— Yes,  sir,  but  the  "horse  pow- 
50   t'l"  would  depend  on  what  they  could  get  out  of  the  engine. 

Q. — What  is  she  total  i)ressure?  A. — It  is  given  here  as 
55. 

Q — What  was  the  test  of  the  hydraulic  presure?  A. — 
ll(»  lbs. 

Q. — How  do  you  ex])lain  the  difl:"erence  between  the  re- 
gistered ]M)wer  and  your  estimate?  A. — Well,  the  nominal 
horse  power  a.^  it  is  known  under  the  Merchants  Shipping 
.\ct,  and  that  is  what  is  pur  in  the  register,  is  only  a  relative 
6q  term.  It  pracHcally  has  no  definite  bearing  upon  the  actual 
horse  power  of  tlie  engines  at  all.  Thiic  is  a  matter  that  de- 
pends entirely  iijion  the  cut-oflf,  the  pressure  of  steam,  and  the 
revolution  of  the  engine,  which  are  not  taken  into  considera- 
tion at  all  in  the  number  of  horse  power. 

Q. — Will  you  please  tell  us  whether,  under  the  laws  as  you 
understand  fliern,  and  ajtply  ■liein,  the  capacity  of  this  engine 
iindei-  the  law  would  be  IT  horse  )H>wer?  A, — Oh,  yes,  they 
could  get  15  horse  power  out  of  her. 


m 


m 


ii 


II    «■ 


■%• 


lO 


20 


30 


40 


50 


60 


(Julm  A.  Tliuiiisuu — CroBH.) 

Q. — Will  yoii  tell  uh  how  you  get  that  horse  powei"?  From 
what  nu'Msurenieut?      A. — From  the  area  of  the  piston. 

Q — Which  is  how  much?  A. — The  area  of  the  piston  is 
abont  33i  s(iuare  inches,  or  thei-eabouts,  and  at  6^  diameter 
it  would  be  Xi  and  a  little  fraction. 

Q. — Tell  us  how  you  get  that?  A. — You  multiply  that  by 
the  pressure  upon  it,  and  by  the  number  of  feet  the  piston 
travels  per  minute,  and  divide  by  38,000;  that  gives  you  the 
horse  power. 

Q. — That  is  the  way  you  fiarure  it  from  13  to  15  horse  pow- 
er?     A. — Yes,  ^^ir. 

Q. — Is  tliere  anything  you  want  to  add  to  that  to  malie  it 
clear?  A. — Tliat  is  clear  enough  to  me,  but  I  don't  know 
about  anyone  else. 

Q. — All  I  want  to  know  is  if  that  is  the  way  you  arrive  at 
it?       A. — Yes,  sir 

Q. — You  take  into  consideration  nothing  but  what  you  have 
stated?      A. — Not  to  get  the  horse  power. 

Q. — Have  you  been  engaged  in  the  busines  of  mechanics 
at  all?      A.— Oh.  yes,  sir. 

Q. — In  a  machine  shop?      A, — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Here  in  Victoria?      A. — No,  sir 

Q. — Whereabouts?       A. — In  England. 

(.1. — Did  you  have  any  experience  in  the  construction  of  en- 
gines and  boilers  at  current  prices?     A. — A  little;  not  much. 

Q. — And  you  have  estimated  at  tliis  period,  for  which  you 
have  the  inspection,  the  cost  as  new?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  ascertain  from  your  inspection  that  the  boiler 
had  been  over  tive  years  in  the  "Thornton?"  It  is  given 
as  tive  years  in  the  "Thornton?"      A. — Yes. 

Q. — And,  theivfore,  the  engine  has  been  there  that  length 
of  time,  as  you  undei-stand  it?    A. — Yes,  sir,  I  understand  so. 

Q. — Having  estimated  it  at  the  time  of  inspection,  of  which 
you  have  read,  by  the  tigures  you  have  named,  what  is  the 
value  of  that  engine  and  boiler,  it  having  been  in  use  for 
five  years?  A. — You  might  understand  that  they  are  not  in 
a  condition  of  being  used  for  five  years,  because  these  boats, 
of  course,  were  only  used  in  the  sealing  business,  and  they 
were  only  out  a  certain  time  in  the  year. 

Q. — Do  not  argue  the  question,  because  you  may  not  know 
that  this  vessel  was  used  in  other  business?  A. — I  did  not 
know  it. 

Q. — She  was  used  in  the  coal  and  trading  business  on  the 
coast  to  some  extent.  A.— I  am  giving  it  on  what  the  In- 
spector says  here;  it  gives  the  condition  of  the  engines  as  be- 
ing "fair,"  and  tlie  condition  of  the  boiler  as  being  "very 
fair,"  and  so  the  boat  musi  have  been  kept  in  good  repair. 

Q. — Will  you  get  to  tlie  question  and  answer  it?  You  es- 
timated this  as  new  at  this  period,  now  having  been  in  use  for 
live  years  what  was  tlie  boilei-  and  engine  wortli?  A. — Off- 
hand it  would  not  be  easy  to  say.  I  see  that  she  was  kept 
in  good  repair,  and  it  does  not  necessarily  follow  that  de- 
preciHtion  would  go  on  to  certain  extent  all  the  time:  it  is 
generally  taken  in  the  matter  of  cost  as  a  depreciation  of  7  1-2 
per  cent 

Q. — Now,  I  will  ask  you  about  this  imrticular  boiler  and  en- 
gine. Do  you  mean  to  say  that  the  boiler  and  engine  hav- 
ing been  in  uw  for  fiv(>  years  it  would  sell  for  anything  like 
7  1-2  per  cent,  off  |2,700?  \.—l  have  no  doubt  in  the  world 
it  would. 

Q._Tt  would  sell  for  that  second  hand  and  having  been 
five  years  in  use?      A. — I  have  no  doubt  it  would. 


Jy  " 


991 


lO 


40 


(John  A.  Thomson— l)e-direi't—Re-ci'088.  Gordon  T.  Grant- 
Direct.) 

Rcdiri'ct  exinnination  by  Sir  C.  H.  Tupper: 

Q.— Perhaps  jou  could  give  your  reason  for  that.  A.— My 
reason  is  given  liere,  this  independent  inspector  reports  that 
everything  is  "very  fair,"  "fair"  in  the  official  language  of  the 
book,  means  good,  and  "good"  means  excellent. 

Re-crossexamination  by  Mr.  Dickinson: 

Q. — Did  you  look  over  these  books  to  see  whether  there  was 
any  other  inspection  of  the  "Thornton"?  A.— Yes,  sir,  I  have 
got  three  years  here,  and  owing  to  the  circumstances  of  the 
case,  when  the  inspector  died  during  his  term,  another  locum 
tenens  was  appointed  and  he  was  not  very  particular  in  what 
he  put  down;  it  takes  three  years  to  cover  them  and  get  a 
proper  statement. 

Q.— And  you  have  taken  that  from  the  latest  one?  A.— 1 
have  taken  it  from  wherever  it  comes  in  in  the  latest  one. 

Q— What  was  the  latest  one?    A.— This  one  here,  188.5. 

Q.— In  making  the  statement  yon  have  made  here,  have  you 
referred  to  a  prior  insi)ectlon  also?     A.— 1883  and  1884. 

(i.— And  you  have  not  referred  alone  to  the  inspection  of 
1885?    A.— 1885  is  the  one  I  read. 

Q-— You  have  read  that?    A.— Yes. 

Q.— In  what  way  have  you  n-ferred  to  the  other  two  in- 
spections?   A.— To  see  what  I  could  learn  from  them. 

Q.— But  yon  have  not  read  into  the  language  of  the  state- 
ment that  has  been  taken  down  anvthing  outside  the  inspec- 
ilTJ!-'*,  i^^^-  ^^— ^^'i-  »  i"  t-ntirely  out  of  the  inspection  for 
1885,  I  have  not  even  found  the  other  inspection,  but  I  know 
that  it  IS  here. 

Q.— I  thought  you  said  you  read  them?  A.— Some  of  them 
,.  *i~^'?"  ^"•^'<'  not  put  into  this  record  here  anvthing  but 
the  one  inspection?    A.— No,  sir.  h  ""t 

nrSri^r*^  ^''^'^  '*^'**''*''  •*"■''  ''"  P"'''"-     A.-Yes,  thev  are  all 

ft  ,?n  nVr-f*'  ""*  ^''^T   '^"  ^^"^  ""^^^^  ""'^  y«t'  but  I   will   look 

It  up  now  if  you  wish. 

Re-direct  examination  by  Sir  0.  H.  Tupper: 

.1  *^,"~T*!®  statement  you  have  itad  from  this  book  refers  to 
the  last  inspection?    A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q.— That  is  the  record  of  1885?    A.— Yes. 

Q.— And  nothing  thiit  you  have  seen  in  anv  other  entrv  .ef- 
fects your  opinion?  A.-No.  I  merely  saw  a  prior  entry  ia 
the  index,  I  have  not  seen  it  vet. 


11 

I   1  • 


SO 


Gordon  F.  Grant  was  called  as  a  witness  on  the  part  of 
Great  Britain  and  was  duly  sworn  and  examined  in  the 
"Thornton"  case. 

Direct  examination  by  Sir  C.  H.  Tupp<?r: 

6q  Q.— What  is  your  position,  Mr.  Grant?  A.— Chief  engineer 
on  board  the  Canadian  Government  steamer    Quadra." 

Q— How  long  have  you  bwn  chief  engineer  in  the  Govern- 
ment service?    A.— About  eighteen  years. 

Q.— And  before  that  you  were  in  a  subordinate  position  aa 
engineer?    A.— Yes,  sir,  for  some  time  in  a  machine  shop. 

Q— You  had  to  do  practically  with  machinery?  A. — Yes, 
sir.     I  inn  a  ma<>hiiiist  by  trade. 

Q.— You  knew  the  "Thornton"?     A.— Yes,  sir,  I  knew  her. 


■j^ 


992 

(Hoitlou     F.     (hunt— l>ir»Ml— ll«'flK'rt     <1.     LewiH— Dlivct— 

Crowt.) 

Q. — Yon  liavi'  Imm'Ii  in  tlu'  ronrt  ntoni  wliile  Mr.  Thomson 
•  WHH  ^ivin);  IMh  I'vidonct'?    A. — Y«'8,  Hir. 

(i. — And  v«»n  luiv«'  liHtoncd  atlt'ntivi'lv  to  him?  A. — Yes, 
Hir,  I  did. 

ii. — An'  .von,  ncn»Miillv  spciilxin)!,  of  tlu'  Hiinie  opinion  lis  lie 
is?  A. — I  thinlc  Mr.  Tliomson's  viilnation  wonid  be  a  very  fair 
IQ  valuation  as  n(>ar  as  I  could  judp'. 

(j.--And  as  to  wliat  h*>  said  as  r«>*;)irds  the  nominal  horse 
power  and  the  iictnal  horse  power,  von  agree  with  what  he 
has  stated?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Diekiuson: — Theiv  is  no  eross-exaniiuation. 


3« 


Herbert  (1.  Li'wis  was  railed  as  a  witness  on  the  part  of 
^°  tSreat  Kritain    and    was  duly    sworn  and    examined  in  the 
"Thornton"  ease. 

Direct  examination  by  Sir  <'.  H.  Tapper: 

(2. — Mr.  Lewis,  you  weiv  for  some  time  agent  of  the  I)e 
]mrtment  of  Marine  and  Fishenes  in  Victoria?  A. — I  was, 
sir. 

Q. — And  previous  to  that  you  were  Marine  Surveyor?  A. — 
Marine  Surveyor  for  the  underwriters  in  San  Francisco. 

Q. — At  tlie  port  of  Victoria?    A. — Yes.  sir. 

ii. — About  when  did  vou  cease  to  discharge  these  duties? 
A.— At  the  end  of  the  year  188;{.  I  think. 

Q. — Then  you  went  into  the  Government  service?  A. — Yes. 

Q. — You  are  not  in  the  (Sovernment  service  now?  A. — I 
am  shipping  master  now. 

Q. — You  are  not  agent  for  the  Marine  and  Fisheries  Depart- 
ment now?    A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — You  were  asked  to  produce  the  last  suiTey  yon  made 
of  the  steam  schooner  "Thornton."  were  you  not?     A. — I  do 
4°  not  know  if  it  was  the  last  time  I  did  survey  her. 

Q. — Were  you  asked  to  prodn<'e  the  surveys  in  your  pos- 
session?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — fan  you  now  pro<luc»'  the  last  survey  von  made?  A. 
—November  14th,  188:}.  is  the  last. 

(i. — Have  you  any  later  than  that?    A. — No,  sir. 

Q. — That  is  your  signature  to  the  end  of  that  report?  A. — 
Yen.  , 

Q. — For  whom  did  you  make  it?  A. — For  the  insurance 
company. 

Q. — Are  the  statements  in  that  rejmrt  correct?  A. — They 
aiv  correct  so  far  as  I  know. 

Sir  ('.  H.  Tapper: — I  offer  that  in  evidence,  may  it  please 
the  Commission.  I  may  state  that  thesr  slips  are"  taken  out 
of  a  book  for  the  p»iri>ose  of  this  trial. 

Received  and  mark*^!  "Exhibit  51,  O.  B.,  Claim  No.  2." 
Ci-oss-examination  by  Mr.  Dickinson: 

6o       Q. — That  is  your  signature?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q — Is  the  paper  in  your  handwriting?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Did  you  make  the  ins))ection  personally?      A. — I  did. 

Q. — You  went  on  the  ship?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — I 
would  like  .o  have  that  pajier,  Exhibit  51,  read  now. 

Sir  C.  H.  Tapper  read  the  i»aper. 


SO 


(Hfl  licit    (J.    Ja-wIh— ClOHB.) 

Ci(.HH».x»miiiialioii  hy  Mv.  Di.kiiison  coiitiniicd: 

().— A|Miit  fioni  tlu'  paper  do  you  mueinber  the  facts  in  re- 
Kiiid  to  niakiiiK  thin  huivc^?      A.— Yes.  Hir 

Q.— irad  til.'  Nhip  then  Imm'ii  ovcihaiik-d?  A.— As  far  as  I 
HM-oII.Mt  Hlw  had  iMMMi  ovciliaulpd. 

(i.— She  had  Imm'u  taken  off  the  ways?  A.— 1  think  «he 
lo    iiad  been  off  the  wa.vs,  I  do  not  recollect. 

Q.— The  ol.jei  t  of  niakinp  .v<.ur  survey  was  because  she  had 

<h?™*  '1"  •>'«"  7'!"«n'h«>r  that  she  had  been  recently  on 

Q.— Pan  you  tell  u«  what  you  mean  by  callinjr  her  in  orettv 
f^ll  -      •^■~^^^""'  •^'"^  ^"^  '"  '^""'^  "••^«''  "«  f"r  a«  that 

Q.— T  am  not  askinir  for  your  memory  of  it  now    but  for 
your  own  interpi-etation  of  your  own  laiiijuajre'      A —Well 
that  means  ffood  order.  ^     k   •       ^^-     >»eii, 

Q.— Does  it  mean  tirst class?      A.— Well,  yes.  sir.  I  think 

NO, 

Q.— Did  yon  think  she  was  a  prettv  old  ship  then'       \  — 
W.>  did  not  tind  out  where  she  was  built  or  anything  in  tiiose 
30     "•"'"■ 

.T^*',?!""""'"''""''''''  '■''^"med  the  consideration  of  the  cases 
of  the  "Anna  Reck."  "Dolphin,"  "Orace,"  and  the  "W  P  Sav- 
ward"  ■      • 

Mr.  Peters:— Allow  me  to  put  in  for  the  information  of  the 
court  the  rcfristries  of  tliese  ships.  I  put  them  in  as  follows- 
lows: 

|'<.py  of  the  Ui-niHivi  of  (he  'W.  TV  Savward,"  (Maim  No  6 
^^        Keceived  and  marl^cd  "Kxliibit  ^^2,  U.  I!.,  Claim  N.  6. 
Cop.v  of  the  Kefrjster  of  the  "Anna  Reck."  Tlaim  No.  7. 
Keceived  and  marked  "Kxliibit  '•.•{.  (J.  H.  Claim  No.  7" 
ropy  of  (he  Re^n.sTcr  of  (lie  "Dolphin,"  Claim  No.  !>. 
Received  and  marked  "Kxliibit  ".4,  (}.  P.  Claim  No.  9." 
<^>I)y  of  the  Hcfjister  of  the  "(irace,"  Claim  No.  10. 
Received  and  marked  "Kxliibit  of),  (J.  B.  Claim  No.  10." 

Tlie  Commissioner  an  the  jiart  of  the  Ignited  States:- What 
18  the  p-oss  toiiiiafre  of  the  "Dol]>Iiin"  as  it  is  stated  there? 

Mr.  Peters:- flfi.24  tons. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States —What 
is  her  aj^e? 


5C 


Mr.  Peters:— Ruilt  in  Victoria  in  1882. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  TTnitt'd  States: 
the  same  particulars  about  the  other  ships. 


-State 


Mr.  Peters:— Tlie  -'Grace."  was  built  in  Victoria  in  1881 
(3o   f,"'oss  tonnage  s:j.Ol.  ' 

The  "Anna  Keck"  was  built  in  San  Francisco  in  1865,  gross 
tonnage  41.17,  I  believe  she  was  increased  afterwards. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States:— What 
IS  tlie  da(e  of  that  Register. 

Mr.  Peters.— 14th  February,  1881. 

The  "W.  P.  Say  ward"  was  built  in  Victoria  in  1882    her 
gross  tonnago  was  64.11.  ' 

63 


I 


i 


.    ; 


:(  ; 


ij 


If  wi 


994 
(John  A.  ThoiiiMon— Diiect.) 
TlwHc  (Iu<Minu>iitH  I'oiitaiti  the  record  of  tlii'Se 


^Ir.  I'ctcrH: 
Nhi)w  down  to  till-  piTMeiit  tiiue 


^ii 


20 


30 


John  A.  ThoniNon  wns  rocnllcd  as  a  wltnons  on  the  part  of 
'°   (ireat  Hiituin. 

Hir  ('.  II.  TiipjKr:— We  tninHfer  the  introductory  evidence 
of  this  witness  from  the  "Tliornton"  case  to  tliese  cases. 

Direct  examination  by  Hir  ('.  II.  Tnitper: 

Q. — I  asli  you,  Mr.  Thomson  to  turn  up  tlie  record  of  the 
"Anna  Reclv"  from  that  Itook  of  yours  and  state  it  to  us. 

"Name  of  vessel,  'Anna  Bei-lt.'  I'ort  of  registtry,  Vic- 
t(Hia.  H.  <'.  Port  and  dti<e  of  inspection,  Victoria.  Jan.  H\, 
ISS').  Owner  and  residence,  J.  I).  Warren,  N'ictoria,  H.  <'. 
Tons  undi'i*  loiina>:c  decl;,  51  ..'{7.  Houst's  on  dcfl»,  (!.'Jf(. 
(Sross  lonnafi*,  "»7.(J(».  Deduttions,  !).1(».  Ilejjistercd 
tonnajTi',  4S.r>().  lns|)ection  dues  and  fws,  ^~.'.V2 — 9'2M'2 
dues.  fxdO  f»H's.  Date  of  payment.  January  Hlli,  1XS4. 
To  wh(un  and  wliere  j»nid.  Colh'ctor,  Victoria.  Date 
of  ••ertitlcate.  -Fanuary  2(l(h,  IMSi").  Date  «>f  issue. 
January  L'tttli.  ISH.').  Freif,'ht.  jiassentier  or  tug.  frei^lit. 
I'addle  or  si-rew.  screw.  Koute.  waters  of  M.  C. 
Year  and  wliei-e  linilt.  San  Francisco,  IHoCi.  DiniensioUH  of 
Iiuil.  lenjjtli  71  feet  I  tentlis;  fnun  cerliticate  of  Itreadtli,  '22 
fe<'t  r.  tentlis.  Ke;j;istry  depth,  7  feet  2  tenths.  Wo<id  or 
iron,  wood. 

"Fhiijiment: — .Masts,  how  many,  2.  Sju-ead  of  canvass, 
alxuit  !MM»  yards.  Xo.  of  funnels,  size  and  heifjht.  1.  14  inches 
diameter.  12  fe«'r  lonj.'.  Xo.  and  dimensions  of  boats.  1,  14 
feet.  K(|ui])ment  of  boats  and  \o.  oars  each.  4.  No.  of  life 
]»reserverh  and  buoys,  wlicre  ])la<'c(l.  (»  life  preservers,  2  buoys 
aft.  No.  and  weifrht  of  anclKus.  2.  one  4.^(1  ])ounds  and  <me 
.5011  pounds.  Size  and  length  of  chain,  50  fathoms,  -j  in. 
chain.  No.  of  signals  and  lamps,  if  a  fop  bell,  '.\  sip^nnls,  4 
lanterns.  No.  of  crew,  all  told,  5.  1  officer.  No.  and  size  of 
steam  pony  pumps.  1  injector.  Draufrht  of  water,  lifjht  and 
loaded,  4  feet   I  inches  mean. 

"General  (^lalities: — If  sail  under  canvass  alone,  yes, 
Sjieed  in  miles  under  steam,  Ct  miles.  Fitness  for  route.  Sea- 
worthy (pialities.  pood.  I'rotecticm  fr<mi  lire,  fnmi  coiil  oil, 
pood.     From  boilers,  from  ivitihcn.  pood. 

"Hoihi-s: — Fonn  of  b(»iler.  No.  of  boiler  ami  ape,  4  years. 
1  return  tubular.  Dimension  of:  width,  lenpth,  lieipht,  4:* 
diameter,  extn-me  hciplit,  7  lonp.  No.  furnace  and  thickness 
of  plate,  one.  5-1  (>.  Dimensions  of  furnace,  if  circular,  di- 
anieter,  22  diameter.  Extreme  lenpth;  lenpth  between  rinps, 
thickness  of  ]date,  7.  Whether  butt  or  lap  joint,  sinple  or 
dcuble  ri>'etcd,  with  or  witliout  bevel,  Itij).  single,  without 
bevel.  No.,  diameter,  lenpth  and  thickness  of  flues,  see  furnace. 
No.  outside  diameter  and  lenpth  of  tubes,  40  tubes,  2i  dia., 
7  lonp.  Depth  of  back  connection,  external.  Diameter  of, 
and  thickness  (ff,  plate  in  steam  chimney,  outside  and  inside, 
J  plate.  27x24  dianu'ter.  Dimension  of  furnace,  2.'?x.'?. 
Thickness  of  jdates  in  shell  of  boiler.  5-10.  Do.  of  Hanpe 
jilate  in  steam  macliin<'ry,  5-1(5.  Name  of  maker  of  plates  in 
shell  of  boiler,  whether  steel  or  iron,  unknown,  iron.  Do.  in 
furnaces,  and  whether  steel  or  iron,  ircm.  Per  (>ent.  of 
strenpth  of  plate  at  lonpitudinal  joint,  as  compared  to  the 
solid  plate,  (15  [hm'  cent,  of  plate  and  1)8  j)er  cent,  of  rivets, 


40 


'.o 


60 


9'j5 


(.Foliii  A.  TlioiMMou— Diiccl.) 


TMiiinH.'i-  ami  pitrli  of  rivi-in  in  luiiKitinliinil  join!,  'tSxi 
pitch.  Wlu'rli.T  l.iitl  or  |ii|i  joint,  jnp,  Douhl*'  or  Hinirio 
i1v.'t.'<l.  iloultif.  \Vli..|li.-r  riv.-t  Im>I<>h  iirc  cirill.Ml  or  iMinrluMl, 
imni-lifd.  ' 

"Stii.vM:— \o.  iind  <linniH<M-  of  CironKh  I.oIIh  from  t-nd  lonul 
of    .oil,.r.  (!.  I  <li„mi.|.-r.       M.-iin  smvukII.  |ht  H.|mir.'  inrli  of 

.oiler    .•omp.irrd    to  Ntrt-nKth   ot   rvlindrical    hIh'II   at    ionifi- 
,Q   tudinal  jonitH.  <M|iial  to  slifll  and  prcHHur.-  allowed. 

"O.-neral  Ken  arks: -.V^,.  of  boiler,  l.v  whom  made.  4  yearn, 
•I.  Jt<d.ertH(m.  <'I.ins,  lairl.v  kocmI.  Wli-n  repaired,  what  r-- 
imtrj. new  ^ta.vs  ,,iil   in  .Ian.  2.  issr,.     EimUw -.-KukUu   and 

na.dilner.y,  (oniiMHind.  e<mdensinn  or  hi^h  preHHUiv ndeuM- 

fn.  H!t!»  hiKh  preMHnre.  No.  and  diameter  of  cvlinderB.  1,  «.3 
dia.  Ktmke  of  piKton.  12.  Working'  preHHur/.  and  point  of 
eufott    <o  iHMindH,  ■■{  of  stroke.       Diam.'ter  of  nmin'  j.Mirnai, 

-  inch      Material  in  steam  pipe,  iron.     Diameter  and  stroke 
20  of  f<'«;«}  pump.  -.75x4.5.       Diameter  «.f  ])iNton  hkI,  U      Work^ 
manship  and  ^.-ueral  effl.iency  of  engine,  fair.       Di  .nu-t.a-  of 
fe«'d  water  pip<»,  }. 

"iioiler  Fitti.iRs  Safety  Valv.'s,  &c.:_No.  and  Mi.,e  of  lork- 
ed  safety  valv..s  J  safety  valve,  ;i.  diameter;  spring  or  l..ver, 
sprinj;.  X<k  and  si.e  of  open  valves,  1.  ;{  diameter,  spring 
fnVi  /f  '7'^*''^;"';'*^ ,♦<•  «n""'-«'  foot  of  Krate,  do.  ojH'n  valves, 
fu  I,  4  to  Is.,.  fo<,t;  i  to  1  s.,.  foot.  Aiva  of  o,K.n  and  IcKki'd 
valy.'S,  1 ;  to  s.,nare  f<,ot  of  ^.-ate.  to  1  s(,.  foot.  No.  '^  (rv 
.-ocks.  .{;  .{above  hi^b.^Ht  heatin«:  snrface.  No.  of  steam 
30  Knn-fiy,  1.     No.  water  jjlass,  do..  1.     Ran^e  of  do.  do    « 

Holler  Test,  Test  and  Condition  of  Hoilei-si—Hvdraulic  test 
pi-essnre  in  ponnds  jK-r  s.piare  inch.  i:«|  ponnds.  Htate  of 
boiler  under  same,  whether  k^h^,  fairly  ^ood;  inditferent  r 
bad  Kood;  w<«kin«  J.ressnre  allowed.  75  po,  „ds  \dj„8 
mcMit  of  saf.ty  valves,  by  whom,  when  last  adj,  sted.  wlXu- 
Hid..  •  steain  or  water  pressure,  r.ider  Nt.-ain  after  new  o  les 
had  l....n  fitted  by  inspector.  NNViv  the  b<>ile  s  •  e  m,  d  v 
vions  to  tes  ?  Yes.  Were  they  e.vamin,Hl  inside?  Vs,r« 
possible.     Were  they  examined  ontside   and  b     wl.m.-V  v 

whom      I.  Kood   order  and   condition.     Hoiler  bed  in    what 
..lateral  laid    wood.     Is  the  hoi  ton.  wet  or  drv?  d.-v     Cnd  e 
asten.nKs.  chocks;  ir.m  straps,   wood.     Il.ddin,.     own  Ss 
and  bi-aces,  and  to  what  scared,  screws  to  keelsons 

Q.—lH  that  the  last  inspection  of  the  "Anna  B.'ck"  that  v«u 
;,:;;;  ;;;;{  '»  ^'"'  •••'<'<»''1«?       A.-Tl.at  is  the  last,  as  far  as  i 

^°     V  *i— ^'"".'••'"'l  f'-""'  <l'ar  that  Robertson  made  the  boiler' 
A. —  1  e.s.  sir. 

Q.— Does  it  .say  by  whom  tin-  engine  was  made?      A.— No, 

*fr~^*".r"'  '"""'■  '"*  "  '"""'''■  "^'  f'"*-  -^--I  km.w  as  a 
matter  of  fact. 

Q— WIx)  was  it?      A.— Mr.  (Jarvin. 

Q.— About  what  a<tnal  lior.se  power  is  indicated  in  that  re- 
cord. .\.— If  would  run  a  little  more  than  the  other 
6o  ""«■•  1  <!<•  "lot  think  it  fjives  the  number  of  revolutions,  but 
it  will  be  a  little  more  tlian  the  other  one. 

Q.-.\bont  what?  We  <lo  not  want  to  Ik  exact?  \  — 
Somethinjr  about  15;  it  would  be  very  little  more  than  the 
"Tlunnton."  it  is  the  same  size  of  eii<riiie  ap])aiently,  but  there 
is  a  little  more  .Hteam  pressure,  and,  of  course,  that  would  in- 
dicate more  horse  jiower. 

Q.— l>id  you  know  the  ship  "Anna  Beck?"  A.— Only  just 
to  see  her. 


li 


99(5 


10 


20 


30 


40 


SO 


A. — Yes,  sir. 
about  the  sanu'x  j 


\. 


(John  A.  ThoiiiHon — Direct.) 

Q. — What  valuo  would  yon  place  upon  her  boiler,  engine 
and  attachments  from  that  record?  A. — It  might  be  worth  a 
little  more  than  the"Thoruton'8''  because  it  is  a  larger  seize. 

Q. — About  what  wotuld  it  be  worth?  A. — 1  would  jiut  it 
at  about  the  same  price  as  the  "Thornton's"  owing  to  it  being 
practically  a  duplicate,  it  might  be  a  little  larger,  but  it  ia 
as  nearly  as  possible  a  duplicate. 

Q. — It  is  larger  as  a  umtler  of  fact? 

ii. — But  you  ANould  jdace  the  value  at 
— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Turn  now  to  the  record  of  the  "Grace"  and  state  what 
it  says  from  your  book. 

"Xame  of  vessel,  "drace."  Tort  registry,  Victoria.  Port 
and  date  of  inspection,  Victoria,  H.  ('..March  .*?,  1HS5.  Own- 
er and  residence,  J.  D.  Warren  &  Co.,  Victoria.  Tons  under 
tonnage  deck,  7S..')1.  Houses  on  deck,  4I^().  dross  tonnage, 
Si\A)\.  Deductions.  (i.l4.  Registered  tonnage,  7ti.87.  In- 
siM'ction  dues  and  fees,  if:!.:?!'.  |i.5.()(>— |iS..S2.  Date  of  payment, 
JIarch  2nd.  ISS.'t.  To  whom  and  where  paid,  collector,  Vic- 
toria. Date  of  certiticate.  iiarch  1 4th,  18Sr..  Date  of  issue, 
March  t4th,  1S8.5.  Freight,  passenger  or  tug.  freight  and 
jKissenger.  I'addle  or  screw,  screw.  Konte.  waters  of  Brit- 
ish Columbia.  Year  and  where  built,  1881,  Victoi-ia,  B.  C. 
Dimensions  of  hull  from  c(M'tifical(>  of  registry,  length,  7(!  feet 
5  tenths;  breadth,  2:?  feet  4  tenths;  depth,  8fet;t.  Wood  <n' 
iron.  wood. 

"Etiuipment: — Masts,  how  many,  2.  Spiead  of  canvas,  700 
yards.  No.  of  funnels,  size  and  height,  one.  1.^x2.  (>.  No.  and 
dimensions  of  boats,  2.  I.").\."ix22  and  17x4.(!x20.  Equipment 
of  boats  and  N(».  of  oars  each.  0  oars.  No.  of  metallic  fire 
buckets  in  rack,  G  Itnckets.  No.  of  axes  and  where  jdaced,  4, 
variously.  No.  of  life  ])reservers  and  buoys,  where  placed, 
30  life  preservers,  1  buoy  aft.  No.  and  weight  of  anchors,  2, 
600  and  70(>  ])ounds;  size  and  length  of  chain,  00  fathoms, 
i  (*hain.  No.  <»f  signals  and  lamps,  if  a  fog  bell,  .'{  signals, 
(i  lanterns.  1  Im'11  and  horn.  No.  passengers  allowed,  25  jms- 
sengers.  No.  of  crew  all  told  and  No.  of  officers  for  deck,  ,T 
all  told.  1  officer.  No.  and  size  of  iiand  fii'e  engine  ])umps, 
.'{x4.  No.  and  size  of  jMuiy  pumps.  :{x4.  Lenih  and  size  of 
hose  and  where  ]>laced,  .'0  U  <lia.  on  deck.  Diameter  and 
pitch  screw,  revolutions  of  engine.  120  rev.,  :{x(i.  Draught  of 
water,  light  and  loaded.  7  and  0.  Limited  draught  of  water, 
light  and  loaded.  8. 

"(ieneral  (inalities: — If  sail  under  canvas  ahme,  yes. 
Speed  in  miles  under  steam.  .">  nautical  miles.  Fitness  for 
route,  seawoithy  iinalities,  good.  I'rotectiim  from  fire,  from 
coal  oil,  go(»d;  from  boilers,  from   kitclien.  good. 

Boilers.  (Seneral  I'^orm  and  Dimensions: — -Forni  of  l)oiler, 
No.  of  boiler  and  age,  cylindrical,  4  years.  Dimension  of, 
width,  length,  height,  cxtrdne  iieight.  48  in  diameter,  7  feet 
long.  No.  furnace  and  liiickness  of  plate.  1,  r>-l(i.  Dimension 
of  furnace  if  circular,  diameter.  :{x2.  Kxti-eme  length,  7. 
Whether  Imtt  or  lap  joint,  laj);  with  oi-  without  bevel,  with- 
out Ik'VcI.  No.  outside  diameter  and  length  of  tuls's,  ."»!( 
tubes,  2J  dia..  7  long.  Depth  of  back  connection,  exteinal. 
<JC)  Diameter  of  steam  drum,  18.  Dimension  of  furnace,  2x:'.. 
Thickness  of  plates  in  shell  oi-  boiler,  .5  Itt.  Tliickness  of 
jdates  in  steel  diiim,  ].     Name  of  maker  of  plates  in  shell  of 


boiler,  whether  steel  or  iron.  Brown  &  Freer,  Iron. 


Tensih 


strength  of  |ilales  in  shell  to  the  s(|uare  inch,  unknown.  I'er 
cent,  of  strength  of  plate  at  longitudinal  joint,  as  compared 
to  liie  solid  plate.  OS  jier  cent.  I>'ameler  and  pitch  of  rivets 
in  longitudinal  joints.  2x5.     NVhc  ier  butt  or  lap  joint,  lap, 


997 


lO 


(John  A.  Thomson — Diroct.) 

Double  or  single  liveteil,  double.     Whetlier  rivet  holes  are 
drilled  or  punched,  punched. 

"Stays,  Steam  Drum: — Nuniber  and  size  of  stays  in  steam 
drum  head,  4,  J,  20  long.  To  what  secured?  sides.  Stay 
power  in  shell  of  boiler — No.  and  diameter  of  through  bolts 
from  end  to  end  of  boiler,  4,  1  diametiT.  Mean  stay  strength 
per  scjuare  inch  of  boiler,  compared  to  strength  of  cylindrical 
shell  at  longitudinal  joints,  ecjual  to  shell. 

"fieneral  Kemarks: — Age  of  boiler,  by  whom  nuide  4 
years,  Spratt,  \'ictoiia.  Class,  good,  fairly  good,  indifferent, 
bad,  fairly  good.  When  icpaircd,  what  repairs,  1884,  repair- 
ed. When  last  lifted,  18S4.  What  provision  for  cleaning, 
good.  How  often  cleaned,  as  requii-ed.  Reductions  below 
full  standard  of  strength.  iT)  jtei'  cent.  Why  deductions,  fur- 
uac«>. 

"Engine,  Engine  and  machinery: — Compound,  condensing 
or  higli  pressure  compound  condensing.     Xo.  and  diameter  of 

2o  <-ylinders,  2  cyliuder.s,  12x<U.  Stroke  of  piston,  12.  Work- 
ing pressure  and  point  of  cut  olf,  80  pounds.  Diameter  of 
main  journal,  .•?,■.  Diameter  of  crank  pin,  !?.  Diameter  of 
steam  pipe,  ;!.  Material  in  steam  pipe,  wrought  iron.  Dia- 
meter of  stroke  of  feed  pumj*.  2ix(!.  Diameter  of  piston  rod, 
1^  Workmanship  and  general  efliciency  of  engine,  fairly 
good.  Diameter  of  feed  watei-  pipe,  \\u.  diameter.  How 
f«vd  is  regulated,  cock. 

"Holler  Fittings,  Safety  Valves,  &c.:— Xo.  and  size  of  lock- 
ed safety  valves,  spring  or  lever,  1,  2^,  spring.     Size  of  steel, 

30  Xo.  of  coils,  aiul  length  of  spring  when  opened,  2,  10.  No. 
and  size  of  ojten  valves.  1,  2]  sining.  Area  <»f  locked  valve 
to  s<iuare  foot  of  grate,  do.  open  valves,  3  to  I  sijuare 
ft.  No.  of  try  cocks  and  height  of  lowest  above  highest 
heating  surface.  ;{.01  in.  No.  of  steam  gauges,  1.  No.  wa- 
ter glass  do..  1.      Hange  of  do.,  do..  0. 

"Jioiler  Test,  Test  and  Condition  of  IloilerH:— Hydraulic 
tc;t  pressure  in  pound  per  s<|uare  inch,  120  pounds.  State 
of  iMtiler  under  .same,  whether  good,  fairly  gixnl,  indifferent, 
or  l>ad,  good.     Working  pressure  allowed,  80   poimds.     Ad- 

40  justment  of  safety  valves,  by  wIkuu,  wli  'u  last  adjustnl, 
whether  undei'  steam  oi-  water  pressure,  .siim(>  time  as  test  by 
E.  S.  Vi<;er.  Were  the  boilers  <leimed  previous  to  test,  yes. 
Were  they  examined  inside,  yes.  Were  they  examined  out- 
side, and  by  whom,  yes,  E.  S.  \'iger.  The  insiM'ctor  will  here 
state  the  ccmditiim  in  which  Ik  finds  the  boilers;  if  neglected 
and  badly  used,  by  whom,  very  good.  lioiler  bed,  in  what 
inaterial  laid,  is  t!u>  bottom  wet  or  dry,  wood  with  wr<»ught 
iron  cover.  Cradle  fnsteiiimrs,  iron  bolts,  1.  Chocks,  wood. 
H(dding  down  bolts  and  braces,  and  to  what  secured;  one  in. 

50   bolts  secured  to  bottom  timbers. 

Q- — I  will  ask  you  In  tiis  case,  as  I  did  in  the  other,  about 
what  the  actual  lau'se  power  is?  .\. — I  would  make  it  over 
23. 

Q. — And  what  is  the  ncmiinal?    A. — fi.2. 

Q. — That  is  a  larger  descriptimi  of  engine  and  boiler  than 
you  have  already  spoken  of?     .\. — Yes,  sir. 

*-l — What  would  you  value  the^  engine,  boiler  and  neces 
sary  attachment  at  in  1883? 

The  Commisshmer  (m  the  part  of  the  United  States:— Do 
you  nu  an  as  new,  w  tiiking  into  consideration  its  age? 

Sir  C.  H.  Tujtper:— I  think  it  better  to  take  it  in  1885; 
he  is  judging  undoubtedly  from  that  report.  (To  the  witness): 
What  was  the  value  in  1883?     A.— About  |t3,300. 

Q.— The  nominal  horse  power  of  the  "Grace"  is  stated  in 
the  Registry  as  13,  and  the  stroke  is  given  here  as  12,  and  the 


60 


it    ;■■ 


lO 


20 


30 


998 

(John  A.  ThoiiiHon — Direct.) 

diaiiK'tcr  of  tlic  cylinder,  12  inches  and  G^  inches,  what  do  yon 
estimate  tlie  horse  imwer  of  tliat  ship  to  be?  A. — Tlie  square 
of  <>i  is  42.25,  and  the  sfpiare  of  12  is  144,  add  that  tojjether 
and  you  have  1H(!.25,  divide  tliat  by  :{(>  and  it  gives  you  6.2  as 
the  nominal  horse  power. 

Q. — <(.2  is  what  is  known  as  the  nominal  horse  power  for 
the  pui"po8e  ofthe    Kegister?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — You  think  that  is  incorrect?  A. — It  is  put  down  at 
that,  but  that  is  not  according  to  the  Merchant  Shipping 
Act. 

Q. — Is  that  the  last  entry  you  can  find  relating  to  the 
"Grace"?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Please  tura  up  the  record  for  the  "Dolphin"  and  read 
it. 

"Name  of  vessel,  "Dolphin."  I'ort  of  registry,  Victoria,  B. 
C  Port  and  date  of  inspection,  Victoria,  November  2nd, 
1885.  Owner  and  residence,  J.  1).  Warren,  Victoria,  li.  C. 
Tons  under  tonnage  deck,  (il.'JS.  Houses  on  deck,  4.30. 
(Jross  tonnage,  (>2.«4.  Detluctions,  «.14.  Registered  ton- 
nage, Ott.KI.  InsjM'ctiim  dues  and  fees,  $7.08.  Date  of  pay- 
ment, November  2nd,  1885.  To  whom  and  where  paid,  col- 
lector, Victoria.  Date  of  certificate,  November  2ud,  1885. 
Date  of  issue,  December  1st,  1885.  Freight,  passenger  or 
t>ig,  freight  and  deck  passenger.  I'addle  oi'  screw,  screw. 
Route,  waters  of  B.  C.  Year  and  where  built,  1882,  Vic- 
toria. Dimensions  of  hull  fiom  (ertitlcate  of  registry, 
length,  77  feet;  breadth,  22  feet  7  tenths;  depth  7  fwt  5 
tenths.     \V<M)(I  or  iron,  wood. 

"Kiiuijiuienl : — Masts,  how  luany,  sjiread  of  canvas,  2,  .300 
yards  of  canvas.  No.  of  funnels,  size  and  height.  1,  18  di- 
ameti-r.  20  long.  \o.  and  dimensions  of  boats,  2,  15x4,  lOx 
22,  17x4,  0x20.  Kquipnu-nt  of  boats  and  Xo.  oars  each,  6 
oars,  P.  H.  H.  Xo.  metallic  fire  buckets  in  rack,  (J  in  rack. 
No.  of  axes  and  where  placed,  5,  variously.  Xo.  of  life  jtre- 
servers  and  buoys  wiiere  place<l,  .'tl  life  jii'eservers,  1  buoy 
aft.  Xo.  and  weight  of  ancluus.  2.  5(M)  and  000  jtounds;  size 
and  length  of  chain.  120  fathoms.  1.  Xo.  of  signals  and 
•lamps,  if  a  fog  bell.  .'!  signals.  5  lamps,  1  bell.  Xo.  of  passen- 
ger staterooms,  Xo.  passengers  allowed,  deck  passengers,  5(f 
No.  crew  all  told.  Xo.  otticers  for  deck,  tJ  all  told.  1  otticer. 
X(t.  and  size  of  hand  tire  engine  |ininps.  1.  4x(i.  Length  and 
size  of  hose  and  where  placed,  50  ft.  li  in.,  50  fVH't  1,  on  deck. 
Diameter  and  pitch  screw,  revolutions  of  engine,  .'{  ft.  di- 
ameter (i  iiitch.  140  lev.  Draught  of  water,  light  and  load- 
ed, 4  ft.  (!.  0  ft.  loaded.  Limited  draught  of  water,  light  and 
loaded.  5  ft. 

"(teneral  (iiialilies: — If  sail  under  canvas  alone,  yes.  Speed 
in  miles  under  steam.  4  miles.  I'Mtness  for  routi',  seaworthy 
(lualilies,  fair.  Pi-otectimi  from  tire,  from  coal  oil,  go»Ml; 
from  boilers,  from  kitchen,  good. 

"Moilers,  (leneral  Form  and  Dimensions: — Form  of  boiler, 
Xo.  of  boilei'  aiul  age.  oni".  cylindrical,  1  year.  Dimensions 
of,  width,  length,  height,  exti'eme  height,  52  dianu'ter,  8  hmg. 
Xo.  furnace  and  thickness  of  plate,  1,  i|.  Dimensions  of  fur- 
nace, if  circular,  diameter.  24  dianu'ter.  7,  Hi  huig.  Extreme 
60  length,  thickness  of  plate,  in  two  lengths  each  '.\,  51  hmg. 
Whether  butt  or  lap  Joint,  ,-tingle  or  double  butt,  single  or 
double  riveted,  with  or  without  bevel,  double  butt  joint.  N(t. 
outside  diameter  and  length  of  tubes,  5:5  tubes  2.J  dla.,  7,  ILJ 
long.  Dcjith.  of  back  (onnedion,  extenial.  Diameter  of 
sii;;'ii  drui'!.  20,     i>iMiciiMion  of    furnace,  24x1!.     Thickness  of 


40 


50 


plates  in  shell  of  boilei 


Thickness  of  plates     in     steam 


drum,  i.     Xame  of  maker  of  plates  n  shell  of  boiler,  whether 
steel  or  iron,  Xorway  iron  and  steel,  Vassa    steel.     Do.     in 


:r^ 


999 
(Joliii  A.  ThoniHoii — Direct.) 

furnac<»8,  and  whcdii'r  steel  or  iron,  steel.  Tensile  strength 
of  plates  in  shell  to  the  8(iuare  inch,  «!(>,(•(»(»  ixiunds.  Per 
cent,  odd  strength  of  i»late  at  longitudinal  joint,  as  compared 
to  tlie  solid  plate,  (!4  plates,  1(W  rivet.  Diameter  and  pitch 
of  rivets  in  longitudinal  joint,  3x2].  Whether  butt  or  lap 
joint,  butt.  DiHible  or  single  riveted,  double,  4  rows. 
Whether  d(mble  or  single  butt  straps,  double.  Whether  rivet 
,f,  holes  are  drilled  or  punched,  drilled.  VVlu4her  burrs  are  re- 
moved, buri-s  removed. 

"Stays,  Steam  Diiim: — Number  and  size  of  stays  in  steam 
drum  liead,  1,  IJ  diameter.  To  what  secured,  shell  to  head. 
Size  of  opening  in  shell  in  steam  drum,  12,  !J  drilled  holes. 
Strength  of  shell  within  steam  drum,  ('(jual.  Stay  power  in 
shell  of  boiler.  No.  and  diameter  of  through  b(dfs  from  end 
to  end  of  boiler,  1|  dia.  (»  number.  Mean  stay  strength  jier 
square  inch  of  boiler,  compared  to  strength  of  cylindrical 
shtU  at  longitudinal  joints,  eijual  fo  pressure  and  shell 
20  power. 

"General  Kemarks:— Age  of  boiler,  by  whom  made,  1  vear. 
Albion  lr(m  Works,  ^'ictoria.  Class,  good,  fairly  good,  in- 
different, bad,  good.  What  provision  for  cleaning,  good. 
How  often  cleaned,  as  required.  Reductions  below  full 
standard  of  strength,  ncme. 

"Boiler  Fittings,  Safety  \'alves,  &c.:— No.  and  size  of  lock- 
ed 8afet.>  valves,  spring  or  lever,  1,  :{.  Size  of  steel.  No.  of 
coils,  and  length  of  spiiug  when  opened,  g,  i»  coils,  11  long. 
Area  of  locked  valve  to  square  foot  of  grate,  do.  open  valves, 
30  i  to  each  sipiare  foot,  |  (o  eacii  scjuare  f(M>t.  Area  of  opened 
locked  valves  to  scpiare  foot  of  grate,  1  to  each  sijuare  foot. 
No.  of  try  cocks  and  height  of  lowest  above  highest  heating 
surface,  .3,  2^.  No.  of  steam  gauges,  2.  No.  water  glass  do., 
1.      Range  of  do.  do.,  9. 

"Hoiler  Test,  Test  and  Condition  of  Hollers:— Hydraulic 
test  pressure  in  iMMinds  per  sijuare  inch,  UW  pounds.  State 
of  boiler  under  same,  whetlu'r  good,  fairly  good,  indifferent 
or  bad,  good.  Working  pressure  allowed,"  110  pounds.  Ad- 
^Q  justment  of  safety  valves,  by  whom,  when  last  adjusted, 
whether  undi  1  steam  or  by  water  jiressure,  same  time  as  test 
under  water  by  K.  S.  Viger.  Were  the  boilers  cleaned  pre- 
vious to  test,  yes.  Were  they  examined,  yes.  Were  they  ex- 
amined inside  and  by  whom,  yes.  Were  tlu>y  examined  out- 
side and  by  whom,  yes,  E.  S.  Viger.  The  inspector  will  here 
state  the  conditicm  in  which  he  finds  the  boilers;  if  neglected 
and  badly  used,  by  whom,  very  good.  Uoiler  iM-d,  in  what 
nuiterial  laid,  is  tli(>  bottom  wet  or  dry,  timbers  cased  with 
iron.  Cradle  fastenings.  1]  through  bolts.  Holding  down 
50  bolts  iind  braces,  and  to  what  secured,  braces  to  timbers. 
Hand  pumj*  for  sujiplying  and  testing  boilers  when  steam  is 
not  uj).     Diameter  and  stroke,  4x0. 

I  may  mention  there  is  no  statement  of  tFie  engine,  I  can 
take  it  out  of  <me  of  the  other  or'-s. 

Q. — Do  you  know  as  a  matter  of  fact  that  the  engine  was 
n  duplicate,  i>ractically,  of  that  in     the    "Grace''?    A.— Oh, 
yes.  I  know  it  was;  and  it  is  in  one  of  tlie  other  ones. 
°       (i. — How  in  one  of  the  other  ones?     A. — A  year  back. 

Sir  C.  H.  Tapper:— Perhaps  that  would  be  admitted;  it  is 
a  fact  that  they  were  duplicates. 

Mr.  Dickinson:— I  am  [H'rfectly  willing  that  he  should  read 
from  the  other  inspection. 

Sir  C.  H.  Tapper:- AVill  yon  turn  to  the  nearest  inspection? 


^ 


11 


20 


30 


tooo 

(John  A.  Tliomson — T>iroct— Prcsrt.) 

Tlu'  Coiuiiiissioiu'r  on  the  part  of  the  TTnitod  States : — Do  T 
nndt'i'Htand  tliis  boiler  was  only  a  year  old? 

Sir  C.  H.  Tapper: — A  j-ear  old  in  1885,  and  it  was  a  steel 
boiler. 

Witness: — I  haven't  got  it. 

Q. — Can  .von  get  it?    A. — I  can  get  it. 

Q. — Will  yon  be  good  enough  to  look  for  the  nearest  inspec- 
tion to  this  date?  A. — Of  course  I  conld  furnish  what  is 
here. 

Q. — Will  you  Im'  good  enough  to  bring  us  that  other  record. 
In  the  absence  of  that  do  you  know  sufficient  of  the  engine 
of  the  "Dolphin"  to  give  me  tlu'  same  opinion  as  to  the  boiler 
and  engine  of  that  ship  as  yon  did  as  to  the  others?  A. — 
f:?,40(>. 

Q. — Do  you  take  into  consideration  the  steel  boiler?  A. — 
Yes.  sir,  $3,400  or  $3,500. 

Q. — Wonld  yon  make  the  same  calculation  as  to  horse 
power  as  you  made  in  the  case  of  the  "Grace"?  A. — This 
boat  ought  1o  indicate  more. 

Q. — Speaking  generally,  much  more?  A. — Might  gain 
three  or  four  horse  power,  three  anyhow;  might  be  more. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States: — Why 
would  it  indicate  more?  A. — There  is  a  difference  between 
110  pounds'  pressure  than  SO,  to  begin  with;  and  it  is  also  a 
larger  boiler. 

Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Dickinson: 


Q. — And  the  jjressnre  allowed  has  something  to  do  with 
yonr  arriving  at  the  lior.se  power?  A. — The  actual  horse 
power. 

Q. — 1  desire  to  ask  the  witness  one  question  as  to  the 
"Thornton."  liy  whom  was  the  boiler  and  engine  built,  as  ap- 
pears by  the  books — the  "Thornton'"?  A. — Ily  Robertson, 
Victoria, — the  boiler. 
40  Q. — Now,  as  to  the  engine?  A. — There  was  no  record  of 
that. 

Q. — As  to  the  "Thornton,"  the  name  of  the  maker,  plates  and 
shell  of  boiler,  Bloonifleld.  Does  Bloomfleld  indicate  the 
maker?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — And  the  same  is  true  of  the  furnaces?  A. — Well,  yes, 
that  wonld  be  the  same. 

Q. — The  same  information  as  to  furnaces  built  by  Bloom- 
Held?     A.— That  is  the  maker  of  the  plate  itself. 

Q. — I  am  in  some  little  confusion  as  to  your  r.ielhod  of  ar- 
5^  riving  at  the  actual  horse-power,  .\ccording  ro  your  explan- 
ation of  the  difference  between  the  actual  horse-power  as  you 
arrived  at  it,  and  the  registered  horse-power  in  the  "Thorn- 
ton" case.  I  uiideistod  you  to  state  that  tlie  pressure  allowed 
would  have  nothing  to  do  with  your  statement  of  the  horse 
power  of  Ihe  engine?  .\.— That  is  nominal  horse  power,  or 
what  is  on  the  registei'. 

(}. — You  do  not  mean  to  be  nnders((K)d  that  if  the  capacity 
of  the  hydraulic  test  of  tlie  boiler  wonld  pennit  100  pounds. 
5o  !""•  the  permitted  pressure  was  the  .^2.  that  the  horse  ]tower 
of  liie  enuiiic  would  be  the  same  whether  the  itressure  was 
100  <ir  .~1»?  \. — Oh.  not  Ihe  actual  horse  jiower.  but  the  nom- 
inal horse  power  on  ihe  I'egistry  would  be  the  same. 

Q- — When  you  slated  the  actual  horse  power,  did  you  state 
the  actual  liorse  i)ower  at  the  permitted  pressure?  A. — Yes. 
sir,  mark  you.  F  would  wish  to  state  that  my  Htatement  of  the 
act  mil  horse  power  is  imly  approximate,  ano  can  only  be  so 
because  the  data  1  have  is  verv  scant. 


1 00 1 


(John  A.  Tliomson — Cross — Redirect.) 

Q. — Hul  I  iindcistood  j-(ni  in  tlie  "Tliornton"  case  tliat  the 
actual  power  yon  conld  arrive  at  from  the  measurements  ap- 
pearinf;  in  vonr  boolvs.  and  of  the  actual  horse  i)0wer,  was. 
always  far  in  excess  of  the  registered  horse  power?  A. — I'n- 
doubtedly  so. 

Q. — Now,  yon  estimated  the  actual  horse  power  of  the  "An- 
na Heck"  at  about  the  same  actual  horse  power  as  the  "Thoni- 
,o  ton."  you  said  13  power  and  the  "Thornton"  13  and  15?    A. — 
The  "Anna  Beck"  would  be  a  little  more  than  the  "Thorn- 
ton." 

Q.— You  stated  the  "Thornton"  would  ho  l.*?  or  15?  A.— 
This  would  be  a  little  more;  (me  or  two  horse  power. 

Q. — Well,  now,  in  the  case  of  tlie  "Anna  Heck"  you  esti- 
nuited  the  engine  at  about  the  same  value  and  about  the  same 
time,  did  you  not?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Mat  in  the  ".Anna  Beck"  case    the    registered    horse 
l»ovver  is  !),  while  in  the  "Thornton"    the    registrv    is    but 
2o   1  and  2-inths?      A.— Well,  I  can't  help  that. 

Q- — You  see  that  with  the  best  intentions  of  understanding 
you  get  into  some  doubt.  Is  there  any  exj)lanation?  A.— 
None  that  I  know  of,  only  it  must  be  an  l-rror,  for  they  are  th(> 
same  size  of  engines. 

Q- — ^'<»>i  do  not  examine  for  registry?     A. — I  do,  yes. 

^i- — !><>♦'"  .vour  office  do  the  inspection  for  the  purimses  of 
British  registry  here?  A.— 1  don't  do  it  in  A'ictoria,  I  do  in 
outlying  districts. 

Q. — They  have  a  surveyor  here  who  does  the  inspection  for 
the  purposes  of  registry,  do  they  not?     A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Comi>etent  offlcial?    A.— He  is  Mr.  Walker. 

Q- — '^n<l  f'«  far  as  you  know,  in  your  residence  here,  those 
officials  have  always  been  competent?    A.— So  far  as  I  know. 

Q.— I  notice  in  the  case  of  the  next  vessel,  which  was  the 
"(irace,"  you  stated,  I  think,  that  the  actual  horse  power  in 
the  case  of  the  "(Irace,"  from  your  records,  was  2.")?  A.— 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.— And  the  valu<'  of  the  engine  and  boilers  is  about  liow 
much?    A.— That  is  the  "(Jraco."  did  you  say? 
^         Q.— Yes.     A.— About  .*?2,  I  think.      ' 

Q.— |!.'i,2no?     A.— Yes. 

^•— •)^n<l  .vour  valuation  of  the  "Thornton"  is  about  |i2.S0n? 

Q— And  the  "Grace"  is  registered  at  15  horse  power?    A 
—  ^  es.  ' 

Q.— Now,  in  your  business,  when  engaged  in  tlie  purchase 

or  manufacture  of  engines,  or  in  the  places  where  vou  have 

d<me  business,  is  the  value  of  the    engine    and     macliinerv 

50  graduated  at  all  by  the  number  of  horse  power?    A.— That  it 

will  indicate. 

Q.— It  is  predicated  upon  the  horse  power?     A.— Quite  so. 

Q  — T^.e  :-egistered  horse  power?    A.— Oh,  no. 

Q.— The  a(  tual  horse  power?     A.— Indicated  horse  power. 


30 


Re-direcf  examination  by  Sir  ('.  TT.  Tu]»|M'r'. 


60 


Q.— ^ou  were  about  to  say  that  ynu  wer-  measuiing  sur- 
veyor as  weM,  for  the  i.urpnses  of  registra1i<m  of  Briti.sh  ships. 
»on  were  not  i;;  \  ictoria ;  Aherc  do  vou  woi'k?  \  — In  the 
outlying  districts. 

Q.— Outlying  districts  of  Brilish  O.Iumbia^  A.— Yes.  mv 
commission  covers  the  wliole  Province.  tl«;-  other  surveyor's 
are  only  local  surveyors,  surveyors  for  the  port  of  Victoria, 
port  of  New  Westminster  and  p«»r(  of  Vancouver. 

Q. — But  you  hold  a  commission  for  the  Province?      A 

For  the  Province. 


r! 


f 


H 


m  '■! 


I002 

(John  A.  Thomson — Ro-diicct.      Th.  Miignesen — Direct.) 

Q. — And  act  outside  of  the  particuhir  localities  for  which 
Mii'.<  are  appointed?      A. — Yt?s. 

Q. — How  long  have  you  held  that  position?  A. — Since 
l«ll,  1  think. 

Q. — The  boiler  and  engine  of  the  "Thornton"— you  spoke 
only  as  to  the  maker  of  the  boiler  upon  these  records,  ami 
that  appeared  to  be  whom?      A. — Robertson. 
10       Q- — ••id  you  say  anything  about  the  engine?      A. — The  en- 
gine was  made  by  Cowan. 

Q. — You  spoke  of  having  scanty  information  in  reacliing 
the  horse  power.  \Vill  you  detinitely  state  what  informa- 
tion you  would  require  to  make  a  more  careful  estimate  of 
the  horse  power  of  these  vi'ssels?  \. — The  only  proj)er  way 
that  you  could  arrive  at  it  definitely  would  be  by  taking  the 
guards  otf. 

Q. — .Vnd  what  percentage  would  you  be  out  with  the  mater- 
ial you  have?       A. — I  don't  suppose  I  would  be  out  more 
2°   than  one  or  two  horsepower.      It  is  under,  not  over. 

Q. — What  do  you  mean  by  over?      A. — It  is  not  over  stated. 


Mr.  Dickinson: — May  it  please  the  High  Commissioners,  the 
counsel  for  Great  Britain  consent  that  one  witness  who  was 
30   in  town  for  a  very  short  period  and  must  leave  to-night,  and 
who  is  in  the  court  room  may  be  put  on  by  us  as  to  the  gen- 
eral catch. 

Theodore  Magnesen,  was  called  as  a  witness  on  the  part  of 
the  Ignited  States  and  duly  sworn,  his  evidence  being  taken 
out  of  order  in  the  '  Carolena"  case  by  consent: 

Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Lansing: 

Q. — Captain  Magnesen,  were  vou  sealing  in  1890?      A. — 
'^°   Yes. 

Q. — On  wlmt  vessel?      A. — On  the  "Sea  Lion." 

Q. — In  what  capacity?      A. — As  master. 

Q. — What  was  tlu?  tonnage  of  th(>  "Sea  Lion?"  A. — »2 
tons. 

Q. — How  was  she  outfltt<'d?  A. — She  was  outtiHed  with 
five  boats. 

Q.— Stern  boat?      A.— No. 

Q. — What  was  your  crew?  A. — 18  all  told,  including  mj'- 
self. 

Q. — From  what  port  did  you  sail?  A. — I  sailed  first  from 
Victoria  to  San  Francisco,  and  there  1  fitted  out  and  started 
sealing. 

Q. — Did  you  seal  in  Behring  Sea?      .\. — I  did. 

().— What  time  did  you  ei.ter  the  Sea?  A.- -About  the 
10th  or  l.-Jth  of  July? 

Q.— What  time  did  you  leave  the  Sea?  .\.— On  the  14tli 
of  September. 

Q. — What  locality  did  you  seal  in?  A. — Sealed  to  the  west- 
60   ward  of  the  Islands. 

Q. — What  was  your  catch  in  Behring  Sea?      \. — 718. 

Q. — What  boat  were  you  on  in  1880?  A.— I  was  (ui  the 
"Minnie." 

Q.— And  in  1888?      A.— I  was  not  sealing. 

Q. — Did  vou,  in  1880,  keep  a  record  of  the  catch  of  the 
"Minnie?"      A.— I  did. 

Q. — Have  yoti  got  that  record  now?  A. — No,  1  handed  it 
over  to  Cai»tain  Jacobsen. 


50 


I 


lO 


20 


30 


1003 

(TIu'o.  Miipncscn — 1  Urcct— Cross.) 

Q.— How  long  ago?  A.— So  soon  as  wt-  aiiived  in  Vic- 
toria, that  would  be  in  September,  1889. 

y.— What  is  The  full  name  of  Jacobsen?  A.— Victor  J 
■lacobsen. 

Q. — Have  yon  seen  the  book  since?      A.— No,  I  haven't. 
Q.— Do  you  know  where  Jacobsen  is  now?      A.— 1  can't 
tell. 

Q.— Has  he  spoken  to  you  about  it?  A.— He  did  say 
he  couldn't  find  i(,  he  didn't  know  where  thev  were  gone  to, 
he  thinks  he  gave  them  to  Kelyea,  he  says  in"  making  up  his 
claim,  and  he  hasn't  seen  them  since. 

Q— What  time  did  you  leave  the  Sea  in  1881),  captain?  A. 
—On  the  17th  of  August. 

Mr.  Dickinson:— In  the  "Minnie,"  is  that? 
Wilness:— In  the  "Minne." 

Q.— She  was  warned,  was  she  not?      A.— She  was  seized. 

Q.— When  was  that?      A.— On  the  inth  of  July. 

Q- — -^''<'  you  going  to  be  back  here  again,  captain?  A. — 
Yes,  I  will  be  back  in  three  or  four  days. 

Q- — Will  yon  report  here  in  three  or  fonr  days?  A. — I 
will,  yes. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  United  States:— 
Where  does  the  witness  belong? 

Witness:— I  live  right  here,  sir,  my  family  is  right  here. 

Mr.  Peters:— Then  you  are  not  through  with  this  witness 
yet? 

Mr.  Dickinsofl :— We  may  call  him  in  the  case  of  the  "Min- 
nie. 

Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q.— Captain  Magnesen.  you  were  in  the  "Sea  Lion"  in  1890 
as  master?      A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q.— Do  you  live  in  Victoria  always?      A.— Yes.  sir. 
Q. — And  you  are  going  away  this  winter  sealing?      A. — 1 
am  going  down  the  coast  for  three  or  four  days. 
Q. — Just  on  a  trip?      A. — Yes.  sir. 

Q- — Really  nothing  important  at  all,  except  you  are  going 
away  for  two  or  three  days?    A.— Just  for  two  "or  three  davs. 
Q.— You  were  in  the  "Sea  Lion"  in  18f)();  have  von  a  loff'of 
it?     A —I  did  keep  a  log. 

Q.— Where  is  it?     A.— Handed  it  over  to  f'aptain  -Tacobsen 
at  Vjctoriii. 

Q.— The  "Sea  Lion"— I  want  the  log  of  the  "Sea  Lion?"  A. 
— It  is  in  my  house. 

Q.— Did  you  keep  a  sealinu;  book?      .V.— I  did. 
Q.— Did  you  enter  the  seals  in  youi-  log?     V.— I  did  not. 
^Q.~And  you  destroyed  your  seal  book?     A.— I  can't  tell 
you. 

Q.— How  long  ago?  A.— Several  years  ago,  I  think. 

Q- — Tell  me  just  why  you  destroyed  it?     A. — I  didn't  think 
it  was  any  good. 
60       Q.— Did  you  make  an  entry  of  vour  seals  when  rou  came 
to  Victoria?    A.~I  think  I  did. 

Q.— Did  you  come  into  Victoria  with  vonr  seals?    A  —Yes 

Q.— The  whole  of  them?    A.— Yes. 

Q— AAVre  they  all  canght  in  Behring  Sea?    A.— What  I 
brought  home,  yes,  sir. 

Q.— And  how  many  did  you  bring  home?    A.— Well   to  the 
best  of  my  knowh'dge  I  think  it  was  718. 

Q.— .\nd  how  many  did  you  bring  home?     A.— Xone. 


40 


50 


M 


T 


20 


1004 

Thoo.  MagiH'Si'U — flnms.      (5.  F.  Ornnt — Direct.) 

Q. — Did  .vou  briiifj;  lioiiie  all  you  caught?    A. — Certainly. 

Q. — And  you  cau);lit  them  all  in  Hehfing  Sea?  A. — ifes, 
sir. 

Q. — During  what  time?  A. — Between  the  12th  of  July  and 
the  14th  of  September. 

Q. — You  aw  coming  bacli  liere  in  three  or  four  days?  A. 
—Yes. 

Q. — To  be  examined  here  again?      A. — Yes. 

Q. — Will  you  be  kind  enough  to  bring  your  log?    A. — Yes. 

Q. — How  many  seals  did  you  catdi  in  September?  A. — 
Quite  a  few. 

Q.— AVhat  do  you  call  quite  a  few?  A.— Well,  of  that  catcli 
of  7(»<»  seals,  I  think  I  caught  about  lidO  in  Septemlwr. 

Q. — And  when  did  vou  leave  the  Sea  in  Septeml)er?  A. — 
I  left  it  on  the  14th. 

Q. — So  that  from  the  first  to  tlie  14th  you  caught  :?(•(»  seals? 
A. — I  think  so,  pretty  near. 

Q. — And  you  did  not  luive  very  good  hunters  that  year,  did 
you?    A. — No,  I  liad  two  green  hunters. 

Q. — And  the  otliers  were  not  vei-y  old  hunters,  wei-e  they? 
A. — Yes,  one  was. 

Q. — One  was  an  old  hunter?  IIow  many  hunters  iiad  you 
altogether?    A. — Five. 

Q. — Two  were  green;  one  was  pretty  old?    A. — No. 

Q. — And  the  othei-s  were  middling,  were  they?  A. — Yes, 
something  like  that. 

Q- — So  that  so  far  as  hunt«'rs  were  concerned  you  were  not 
30  so  well  supplied  as  some  of  the  otliers?  A.— Notliing  extra, 
no. 

Q- — You  had  five  boats,  you  told  us?    A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q-— Was  there  pretty  good  weather  in  Septemlu'r?  A.— 
September  was  fine,  the  first  i)art  of  September. 

Q.— In  fact  you  did  better  work  in  Sei)tember  tlian  vou  did 
In  August?  A.— Yes,  I  did  nothing  in  August,  nor  in  July 
either.     It  was  too  stormy. 

Q. — So  that  these  i)"ople  wlio  tell  us  you  cannot  flsh  in  Sep- 
tember on  account  01  tlie  weather,  they  don't  know  anything 
4°  about  it,  do  they.  Captain?  A.— Oh,  no,  you  can  get  lots  of 
seals  in  September. 

Q.— We  will  have  your  log?    A.— All  right,  sir,  I'll  bring 

Q. — You  can  also  take  a  look  to  see  whether  you  are  sure 
you  destrojed  the  seal  book?  A. — Yes,  I  am  certain,  sure, 
I  did. 


SO 


60 


Gordon  F.  Gi-ant  was  recalled  as  a  witness  on  the  part  of 
Great  Britain. 

Direct  examination  by  Sir  C.  H.  Tapper: 

Q. — You  lieard  the  evidence  of  Mr.  Thomson  as  to  the 
boiler  and  engine  of  the  three  steamers,  the  "Grace,"  "Dol- 
phin" and  "Anna  Beck"?     A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — In  respect  to  the  opinion  he  gave  as  to  the  value,  what 
difference  would  that  be  betwwn  him  and  you?  You  heard 
the  description  of  the  boiler  and  engine  of  the  different  ships? 
A. — Yes,  sir. 

Q. — About  wliat  valu(>  would  you  place  on  the  boiler  and 
engine  on  the  "Grace"?  A. — I  should  say  tluit  the  "Grace" 
would  be  worth  about  ^rj.BOft. 

Q.— And  the  "Dolphin"?  A.— The  "Dolphin"  was  the 
same  class  as  the  "Grace." 


(005 

((}.  R  'Jiaiit— IMiict.      Win.  Tniiu'l— Diieit.) 

Q.— With  the  «'Xit'i»tion  of  tho  boiler?  A.— With  the  ex- 
teption  of  the  boiler. 

Q.— One  wan  of  steel  and  the  other  iron?     A.— Yes. 

y.— What  dilfeience  wouhl  that  make?  A.— There  wonld 
iMMi  little  differ*  nee  in  the  value,  „f  ,.»nr8e.  not  a  «reat  deal, 
shmiui  s    '"*     ^^'"'^     difference?     A.— From  »:{00  to  fSOO  1 

'°  «'>fii;T''*io""'  ""'*  '""^  *''*'  '^'■*''  ^""'•'''-     A.- Would  be  fn.ni 
f JIHI  to  f30()  more  expensive. 

/i,"~^\'"'*  ^'"'"''  ^^'°"'*^  •^■<^"  l^"t  •>"  *J'e  boiler  and  the  enirine 
of  the  "Anna  Heck?"     A.-Oh,  twent.v  eight  hundred  tcrtC 

ii  v'eJv  f.:  r  'r-     '  V"'"  ^'''-  T'-n.pBon'H  valuation  wS 

jmlKl  •''     '  '■         ■  ""  *'"'  ""*^"'''  «'*'*''  ^  «''«"'<* 

9~'^'"*  t'vidence  .voii  have  jjiven  is  independently  of  his 
opinion?    A.-In<le,Hndent  of  his  opinion. 


!• 


I! 


20 


Xo  eroHsexa  mi  nation. 


William  Tnrpel  was  recalled  as  a  witness  on  the  part  of 
IJreat  Britain. 

Direct  examinaticm  b.v  Sir  (\  H.  Tapper: 

Sir  C.  H.  Tapper:— This  witness  is  called  ih  the  1RS7  cases 

r;"'  ^■"*'''^  "^  ^''•'  "Grace."  "Dolphin,"  "Anna    Beck"     an.* 

'Sajward."  and  I  would  like  to  transfer  all  his  evidence  pre- 

yiouslv  taken  into  this  record,  except  so  far  as  it  is  obviously 

inapplicable.  •' 

Q.— Mr.  Turpel,  von  knew  the  "Grace"  and  Dolphin"'  A 
Yes,  I  have  seen  them. 

Q.— What  would  you  say  would  be  a  fair  value  of  tTiose 
vessels  in  1SS«.  take  the  "Grace,"  what  was  her  tonnage? 

40       The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  T^nited  States:— I  am 

frank  to  say.  Sir  ("harles.  that  the  evidence  of  this  witness 

would  not  hav«'  much  weight  on  my  mind,  unless  you  qualifv 

nm  m  a  more  specific  way  than  by  asking  him  generally  if 

lie  Knew  them.  ■ 

Sir  C.  H.  Tapper:— Jly  recollection  is  that  this  witness  was 
examined  considerably  as  to  his  connection  with  the  ships.    , 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  the  TTnited  States-— 
These  imrticular  ships?  ►  nies. 

Sir  C.  H.  Tapper:— Perhaps  not.     (To  witness): 

Q.— Did  you  know  anything  of  the  "Grace"?  A —I  hnv^ 
stH'u  the  ship.  "  ''*^*^ 

Q._Where  did  you  see  her?      A. -Seen  her  in  Victoria. 

li.— Have  you  had  any  work  upon  her?  A.— Not  any  work 

(i.— On  the  "Dolphin?"  A.— No. 

Q.— On  the  "Anna  Beck?"      A.— No. 

Q.— Then  any  opinion  you  would  give  would  be  vour  rough 
60  estimate  of  their  value?    A.— That  would  be  all.' 

Q.— How  often  had  you  seen  tlu'm  before  they  were  seized 
in  1887?  A.— Well,  I  have  seen  them  quite  often,  I  suppose, 
I  never  have  taken  any  particular  notice,  the  one  built  over  on 
the  other  side,  I  knew  her. 

Q.— Which  was  that?  A.— The  one  that  Mr.  Smith  built, 
the  "Grace."  I  wouldn't  say  whether  the  "Grace"  or  the 
"Dolphin." 

Q. — Built  by  whom?      A. — Mr.  Smith. 


ioo6 


■fe: 


M:     id! 


3« 


(Will.  Tiirpt'l— Diruft — C^ross.) 

Q. — And  when  did  yon  fii-Ht  sei'  the  "Dolphin?"  A. — Well, 
I  Hfcn  iicr  wliile  mIu*  wiih  being  built. 

Q.— Where  wii8  she  built?  A.— She  whh  built  over  ut  Rock 
Ha.v. 

<i. — You  were  then  faniilitir  with  the  vcnsel  wheh  she  was 
being  built?      A.— (Hi,  .ves.  (piite  often  I  went  mound  there 
when  they  was  building  her. 
10       ^i- — I^i'J  .V""  s^'t'  her  after  she  was  eouipleted?       A.— Y,>8, 
saw  her  after  she  was  launehed  and  rigged. 

Q- — What  value  would  you  put  upon  that  vessel  then  when 
you  saw  her  launched  and  rigged?  A. — Well,  taking  it 
generally,  what  it  eost  nie  to  build  mv  schooner,  I  think  she 
would  be  |H,000  or  $n,()()0. 

Q.— That  is  without  the  steam?  A.— I  ain't  speaking  of 
the  steam. 

Q- — Are  you  able  to  speak  of  her  with  steam  as  well?    A. — 
Not  at  all,  I  am  noi  posted  as  to  steam. 
20       ii- — You  prefer  to  speak  of  her  simply  as  she  was  built  and 
launched  as  a  schooner?      .\. — Yes. 

Q.— Did  you  see  the  "Orace"  built?       .\.— \o. 

Q- — l^id  yon  see  her  afti>r  she  was  built?  A. — I  seen  her 
in  the  harbour. 

Q. — There  is  not  much  dilfen-nce.  is  there,  between  the  two? 
A. — I  couldn't  say,  to  compare  the  two  together  from  mem- 
ory, I  never  worked  on  her. 

Q. — .\bout  how  often  liave  you  seen  her?  A. — Passing 
throngh  the  habour  and  around  the  water  front  a  good  deal, 
I  used  to  see  h;>r  quite  often. 

Q. — Taking  your  opinion  for  wluit  it  is  worth  on  that  score, 
from  wh.it  3011  saw  of  her,  what  would  you  say  would  be  a 
fair  value,  what  would  be  your  opinion  of  her  value  as  a 
sch<M)ner  without  the  steam?  A. — I  don't  know  whether  I 
<'ould  i»ut  a  price  on  her  or  not. 

Q. — Have  you  seen  the  "Anna  Beck"  often?      A. — Probably 
I  might,  but  I  don't  have  much  recolh'ction  of  the  "Anna 
Reck." 
40       Q. — Then  you  do  not  want  to  put  a  figure  on  her?      A. — No. 

Q. — Do  you  know  anything  of  the  "Say ward?"  A. — Yes, 
I  know  the  Sayward. 

Q. — What  have  you  had  to  do  with  her?  A. — I  have  done 
a  lot  of  work  on  her. 

Q. — So  that  you  knew  the  Say  ward  pretty  w»'ll  in  1887. 
Now,  what  would  be  a  fair  value  for  her  in  1887?  A. — 1 
should  tliink  a  fair  value  would  certainly  be  f7,000  or  |8,000. 
She  was  a  pretty  good  schooner. 

50       Cross-examination  by  Mr.  Dickinson: 

Q. — Did  you  work  on  the  "Dolphin,  did  you  say?  A. — No, 
I  never  worked  on  her. 

Q. — Ever  on  her?  A. — I  never  was  to  my  knowledge. 
^^'hen  they  was  building  her  I  was  aboard  of  her. 

Q. — I  do  not  mean  tlu'  "Sayward,"  I  mean  the  "Dolphin," 
you  have  jtist  tesiifled  about  tlie  "Sayward."  Now,  were  you 
on  the  "Dolphin"  and  "Sayward"  both?  A. — During  the 
time  that  tlu'  -Dolpliin"  was  getting  built,  1  was  aboard  of 
^°  her,  no  doubt  about  i(.  and  in  the  yard  several  times  when 
thev  were  building  her. 

(i._\Vhen  was  the  "Doli.hin"  built?      A.— 1888. 

Q. — You  are  <jui(e  sure  you  were  not  aboard  of  her  in  one 
of  the  two  years.  lSM818S!t?  A.— I  was  aboard  of  her  during 
the  time  she  was  building,  but  the  date  1  couldn't  say. 

Q.— When  did  you  j-o  aboard  of  the  "Sayward?"  A.— That 
is  when  she  was  on  the  stocks,  when  they  were  putting  the 
deck  frame  in. 


loo; 

(Win.  Tnii.<.|-C,.,mH-H,..,lim.f.    j.  a.  Thomson— I Mrwt.) 

^^^T^yA"'";  '^"^  "'"'*  «»t  the  date  of  it.  One  nijrht 
Mr  S«.m,,  the  ^^entl,  n.H„  Hitting  here,  and  I  wenV  out  in  a 
boat  and  toolt  a  good  Hurvey  of  lier.  "i  "lu  lu  u 

.f  ^^~'^1f  "'"'  «'"«.,'*"""*•      ^^—^o,  wlien  Bhe  was  on  the 

Ktoeks     Hhe  waH  built  right  out  at  Lning's  ways. 

^^  Q.-l)id  you  looli  over  tlie  "Dolphin?"      A.-Not  particul- 

lO     /i— Yon.  I  thinl<,  liad  a  sldp  yard  in  IS.S8  and  1889'  \_ 
^t-H.  I  think  I  had  (he  Star  ship  yard  in  1888  and  1889'  " 

«rT,  "*  "''''""'  *'"'  ^'''I'  *'"'*  y»"  *»'''^  vour  own?  A 
—  uell,  I  had  quite  a  number. 

Q.— The  one  jou  built  for  yourHelf? 
tug  Itoats 

Q.— Tlie  ship  you  Imilt  for  yourself? 
pel." 

Q.— Did  you  build  any  otlier  ship? 
Flelle,"  a  dujilicate  of  tile  "Sayward." 

Q.— When  did  you  build  her?      A.— That  would  be  1891. 

*i- — III  .vour  testimony.  I  suppose,  you  were  giving  values 
from  your  knowledge  of  eost?  A.— From  what  I  knew  from 
exjterience. 

Q.— From  cost?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

<i— You  are  estimaiiug  tlie  cost  of  these  sliips,  are  you  not' 
A. — Yes,  (hat's  riglit. 

Q.— You  have  not  l»ought  or  sold  ships,  your  business  is 
merely  sliip  l»uilding?      A.— Sliip  building  and  repairing. 
30       Q— You  are  still  in  that  business?      A.— Yes,  sir. 

Q. — Have  a  yard  of  your  own?      A. — Yes. 

Q.— .\nd  now  have  a  yard  of  your  own?  A.— Yes  I  have 
uiy  nmrine  railroad  still.  ' 


20 


A.— There  was  four 

A.— The  "Sadie  Tur- 

A,— I  built  the  "May 


Uedireet  examination  by  Sir  C.  H.  Tupper: 

Q.— You  were  asked  about  the  "Mav  Belle,"  you  built  that 
vessel  in  1891  ?      A.— 1891,  yes  sir.      ' 

Q.— You  said  that  she  was  built  off  the  "Savward"  mould, 
^Q   or  after  the  "Sayward"  style.      A.— Yes,  she  was  a  duplicate? 

The  Oommisaioner  on  tlie  part  of  the  United  States:— Do 
yoii  mean  this  "Sayward? 

Witness:— Yes,  the  "W.  P.  Sayward." 

At  5  p.m.  the  Commissioners  rose. 


SO 

Oommlssioners  under  the  Convention    of  February  8,  1896,  Between 
Great  Britain  and  the  United  States  of  America 

Chambers  of  the  Legislative  Assembly, 

At  Victoria,  December  31,  1896 

At  10:30  a.m.,  the  Commissioners  took  their  seats. 

Tile  Commissioners  proceeded  witli  the  cases  of  the  "W  P 
00   Sayward,"  tli."   'Anna  IJeck,"  tlie  "Grace"  and  the  "Dolphin." 

John  A.  Thomson  was  recalled  as  a  witness  on  the  mrt  of 
fSreat  Britain.  ^ 

Direct  examination  by  Sir  C.  H.  Tupper: 

(i.— Mr.  Thomson,  have  you  found  the  book  vou  promised 
I0  look  for  conlaiuing  the  inspecticms  of  the  "Dolphin?"  A  — 
Yes,  sir. 


ioo8 


If^^' 


* 


20 


^.d 


V         I 


U^' 


(J.  A.  ThouiHou— Diiwt.      H.  MtC.  Huiitli— Dlre.t.) 

Q.— VVImt  (latf  liuVu  .vou  beforu  the  iHt  May,  IHKi'!    A. — 
l-Vbiiiaiy  4tli,  iHN2. 

Q.— NVIu*  k«'iti  tliow  rccoidM?  A.— TIkhuhh  WoHtgarth, 
111*'  tlit'ii  IiiH{K'i;tor  of  boilei-H  anil  iiiacliinery. 

(i.— How  wore  Iuh  book8  kopt?      A.— I'ai-ticiilarlv  exai-t. 
/    Q.— Uo«H  (li«'  fliHt  entry  to  whiih  yoii  refer  relate  to  the 
Maine  boiler  aiwl  eiij^iiie?      A.— F  preHunie  not,  beeauHe  the 
10   "I><»ll>hii>'w  euKine,  in  1S83,  was  only  one  year  old. 

Q.— (live  ns  the  record  of  May  1st,  18S;{,  to  which  you  have 
referred. 

Mr.  Dickinson :— That  is  what  is  not  in  the  inspection  of 
yesterday. 

Hir  ('.  H.  Tupper:— Quite  so. 

lUrect  examination  by  Hir  (J.  FI.  Tapper  continued: 

Q.— IMease  give  us  that  i-ecord  of  May  Ist,  188.'{,  to  which 
you  have  referred?  A.— I  may  say  that  tlie  particulars  of 
tile  engines  in  tliese  old  books  are  not  very  clearly  kept;  there 
were  not  items  put  down  for  that  purpose  except  simply  the 
size  of  the  cylinders;  tJiere  are  no  specifications  of  the  shaft, 
or  boilers,  the  same  as  in  tlie  books  of  tlie  preceding  years. 

Q. — (live  us  that  record  with  reference  to  the  engine.  A. 
— "Engine,  one  compound  (condi'nsing);  diameter  of  one  cylin- 
der. 12  inches:  of  the  other  6  1-2  inches;  stroke,  12  inches." 
It  goes  from  that  to  the  tire  engine.  After  giving  the  size 
of  the  cylinders  there  are  no  more  particulars  about  the  en- 
30  pine  at  all.  The  only  things  relating  to  the  engine  are: 
Fire  pump,  steam  pony  pump,  the  pitch  and  diameter  of  the 
screw,  and  the  revolutions  of  the  engine. 

Q. — U'hiit  was  the  capacity  of  that?  A. — "Fire  engine, 
one;  six  inches  diameter  on  deck:  diameter  of  pitch  by  pcrew, 
4  feet  in  diameter,  six  feet  six  inclies  pitch;  revolutions  of 
engine,  150."'  That  is  all  (he  particulars  of  the  enghie  that 
are  given;  the  rest  is  with  reference  to  the  boiler. 

(J. — Which  of  these  vessels  had  certificates,  under  the  act 
relating  to  the  inspection  of  steamboats,  permitting  them  to 
40  cjii-ry  passengers?  A. — According  to  the  record  there  were 
50  deck  passengers  allowed  for  the  "Dolphin  " 

Q. — And  which  other  was  allowed  to  carry  passengers? 
A. — T  think  the  "Grace."  The  number  of  passengers  allowed 
on  thf>  "Grace,"  "No  state  room,"  was  2.'i. 

The  Commissioner  on  the  part  of  Her  Majesty: — That  is  in 
the  latest  survey? 

The  Witness:— Yes,  sir,  in  188.5. 

Mr.  Dickinson: — I  have  no  cross-examination. 


Samuel  McCulloch  Smith  was  recalled  as  a  witness  on  the 
part  of  Great  Tlritain. 

Mr.  I'eters: — With  regard  to  this  witness  I  desire  his  evi- 
dence in  tlie  "Caroleiia"  case  and  subsequently  to  be  trans- 
ferred to  these  cases,  except  where  it  is  obviously  inapplica- 
ble. 

Co       Direct  examination  by  Mr.  Peters: 

Q.^Will  you  tell  us  what  you  had  to  do  with  the  building 
of  tlie  "Dolphin?"  A. — 1  was  employed  by  Captain  War- 
ren to  superintend  tjie  building  of  her  as  master  workman, 
and  was  on  the  work  from  the  beginning  of  it  to  the  comple- 
tion. 

Q. — When  was  that?  A. — The  beginning  of  the  job  was 
in  1881  and  the  finish  in  1882,  I  think.     ^^ 


